Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Topic started by: Cramulus on April 11, 2017, 02:25:05 PM

Title: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 11, 2017, 02:25:05 PM
Introduction



As some of you know, I've been on an academic binge through 1900-1920s esotericism. There were a lot of these weird guru figures that emerged during this period. Crowley, Gardner, Meher Baba, Mme Blavatski, G.I.Gurdjieff, many others. Most of them attracted - let's face it - wealthy socialites from London, Paris, and New York. Their students would come study in some remote location (Russia, India, etc), then return home to show off these weird oriental ideas to their wealthy socialite friends.

If there are two scales, "wiseman" and "charlatan", most of these gurus registered somewhere on both scales. Crowley, for example, was high on both. Meher Baba, in contrast - probably not a charlatan. Blavatsky? 100% charlatan. (and by the time people discovered that her 'letters from the other side' were a hoax, she had already collected a bunch of "true believers" -- so, inexplicably, there are still theosophists today.)

This "spiritual awakening" from 1900-1920 planted the seeds that would later become the new age movement. So maybe what I'm doing is just the turbo-hipster version of alt-spirituality.

I'll state my goal in sincere terms: I have an aesthetic attraction to 1920s esotericism. I am also interested in exploring this stuff from the inside. I don't just want to read about it, I want to read the texts, discover the secrets, test things for myself. And I don't want to get into occult stuff, let's see what else is out there.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 11, 2017, 02:25:42 PM

A "Bill Murray" Introduction to G. I. Gurdjieff



Here was my intro to Gurdjieff... I actually found him in an odd place: Bill Murray. You know how Bill Murray has this reputation for being this wandering trickster? His hobby seems to be surprising people, doing absurd in-the-moment things.. not as an expression of fame or ego, but because he wants to have fun, he wants to have real experiences. Well it turns out Murray is a huge G.I.Gurdjieff enthusiast, and it's likely Gurdjieff's philosophy informs Bill's lifestyle.

Check out this video:

Bill Murray gives a surprising and meaningful answer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9TvFkiLLMo)


Here, Murray talks about how his goal in life is to be "really here", to be conscious, to be present, to not be distracted by habitual thoughts or the little games we play throughout our day.

This is one of those 'grounding' videos that I will watch during a turbulent day and it calms me right down. I really recommend it.

Another video, The Philosophy of Bill Murray, gets into the intersection of Murray and Gurdjieff in more depth. I've queued it up to the right spot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3_j0BlbUy8&t=4m13s

Check those out.

For a more in-depth intro to the Gurdjieff work, check out the thread You're Not Conscious (https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,38091.0.html).


For the Black Iron Prison Cabal - Gurdjieff also used the metaphor of a personal prison that we jail ourselves in. This will seem oddly familiar to you: http://fourthwayschool.org/prison4.html


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 11, 2017, 02:26:04 PM
Revisiting the Reality Safari



A quick aside about the 'reality safari' - back in, I dunno, 2010 (?), I embarked on a crazy series of adventures where I tried to find the weirdest people I could, then hang out with them and blend in... then ask them who they thought were too weird, then go hang out with THEM. And so forth. Roger gave the Safari the slogan "Ad Fundum!" - latin for TO THE BOTTOM.

Well, it took me three stops to hit the bottom. I went from Trekkies to UFO people, to paranormal researchers who believed time traveling celts built a bunch of root cellars in Putnam County (https://kelticenergy.wordpress.com/author/keprichambers/). On this adventure, I met some pathologically crazy people - dysfunctional, disconnected from reality... And this is where I called Safeword. I felt like I was a tourist in these spaces, and I started to feel like I was gawking at crazy people, consuming their weirdness as a form of personal entertainment. I got sketched out, I felt guilty, and then I quit the safari.

But Gurdjieff gatherings - these people aren't insane, they're just tuned into something very old and strange. This isn't about the crazy people, it's about the oddball thoughts from a place I've never explored.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 11, 2017, 02:26:23 PM
Grab Your Safari Fez



It's April 2017. I've been reading about Gurdjieff for six months now. Fighting my way through his horrible book "Beezlebub's Tales to His Grandson". (this is harder to read than Godel Escher Bach... the book's impenetrability is probably one of the reasons the New Age movement never picked up Gurdjieff)

Much like when I discovered Discordianism in the late 90s, I asked myself "Are there really people out there doing this stuff? Or is this some dead joke I've found encased in amber?" Well the answer is yes, of course, it's 2017, people follow all sorts of shit. There are still theosophists for christsakes.

So WHO are the people still following this 1920s spiritual movement?  It turns out that there is a G.I.Gurdjieff foundation in NYC and it has like 300 or 400 members. I wanted to meet some.

So I reserved a seat for this event:

(http://www.gurdjieff-foundation-newyork.org/eventImages/GurdjieffFlyerApr2017.jpg)

Maybe this will turn out to be a cult? I don't know. Let's find out.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 11, 2017, 02:26:41 PM
The Event



(http://i.imgur.com/LGFJYLQ.jpg)

I showed up at this esoteric bookshop in midtown manhattan, linked to the Theosophical Society of NYC. There is a little "lecture hall" next to the bookshop, which felt like a yoga room. The meeting was in there.

I'd say there were about 30 of us. The crowd ranged from age 30 to 60. The leaders of the meeting were ancient, definitely over 70 years old. There seemed to be a lot of Russians in the crowd.. which makes sense because Gurdjieff was Russian-Armenian, so they'd be more aware of him than NYC locals.

The gathering started with a live performance of some of the Gurdjieff-de Hartmann music, which is very beautiful. Here's what it sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOTRK4aus4Y

Then, one of the three leaders read a passage from a Gurdjieff book.

Then we had some Q&A.




The leaders of the meeting were not professional teachers, they're just enthusiasts, so their answers were a bit meandering. Like I said, the gathering had a tranquil feeling kind of like a yoga class... when you asked a question, the person would think for 20 seconds and then answer.

Some of these questions were kind of frustrating - mainly because spirituality and consciousness is really tricky to discuss, so the questions (including my own) and answers were meandering and slightly unfocused.


The three old timers wanted us to know this:

-The Gurdjieff work points to a form of consciousness that is an "altered state of being". They say that once you experience this state (and you can only experience it for short periods, nobody can stay in it for long), it transforms you and your perceptions. I think Gurdjieff hints at this with the title of his book "Life is only real, then, when 'I Am'".

-Becoming conscious is important, not just for us as individuals, but for all of us. The universe wants to become conscious. It can only do that through us. And we are collectively served, (by "We" I mean the whole human race is served) by having more consciousness within it. They tell us there is a purpose to life, something beyond even humanity... and that consciousness helps it along.

(I want to pause here and underscore how Modern that sounds... this is a pre-WWII system, so they are focused on these big unifying ideas like the 'direction of history'.. I would be very curious to read if Gurdjieff had a reaction to postmodern philosophers like Camus and Sartre, who rejected ideas like universal meaning and purpose)




After the Q&A, we did some group movements.


I can imagine a slightly alternate universe in which people do this stuff instead of Yoga.


To explain the tip of the iceberg - Gurdjieff Movements are a form of group meditation. Gurdjieff studied Sufi and Tibetan temple dances and the way they affected consciousness. He distilled what he thought were the useful parts and wrapped them up in de Hartmann's music.

The Gurdjieff Movements are a practical exercise in raising consciousness. They are supposed to make you aware of your body, aware of your thoughts, but also aware of the group movement, the group energy, the group experience, the group identity. I think the idea is to lose yourself in the movements and get a direct experience of a collective identity.

(quick aside - this is basically what Schopenhauer wrote about - the transcendent properties of art and dance)

I'm fascinated by the Gurdjieff movements. They're dances, but they're supposed to be private; they're not performances. Luckily, it's 2017, and everything is on youtube. Here's a video that absolutely blows my mind, I love it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=740PhEOdx1M

We are told that there is a presentation coming up.. apparently the Movements will be 'performed for the public' for the first time since 1961. Before that, they hadn't been performed since 1923. So the fact that there's a presentation next month is a big deal. As soon as they post tickets for the event, they sell out in a flash - I'm staying tuned to the event page so I can get some when they're posted.

So anyway, we did this 'group work', which was more or less doing a bunch of synchronized movements to this strange music.


Then there was some more Q&A, another reading, and we broke for refreshments.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 12, 2017, 04:27:21 AM
Check out the Vorticists. 

Filippo Marinetti and Wyndham Lewis.

They're like dadaists that accidentally Nazi'd. 

Marinetti:  "You have never understood your machines!  You have never known the ivresse of traveling at a kilometer a minute.  Have you ever traveled a a kilometer a minute?"

Lewis:  "Never.  I loathe anything that goes too quickly.  If it goes to quickly is is not there."
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Ziegejunge on April 12, 2017, 06:24:41 PM
Thanks so much for this, Cram.

I finally decided to read some Gurdjieff last year in September, and made the mistake of starting with Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson. Got about 160 pages into it before it was due back at the library, and I haven't found it in me to check it back out again since.

That said, I am curious about the dude and his legacy, and was actually thinking this week about trying to read more Beelzebub or, alternatively, crossing over to Meetings With Remarkable Men and giving that a shot. Then, as synchronicity would have it, you start this thread.

Once I'm home from work, I'll be checking out those vids. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 12, 2017, 06:54:17 PM
yeah I wish I could say "you should read beelzebub's tales". I don't know. I've got a love/hate relationship with it. Every so often I find something that really strikes me, but a lot of the time I just want to hurl it into a fire.

For those of you who haven't heard of it - it's kind of like a "Fourth Way Bible".. Gurdjieff put everything into that book.

Gurdjieff studied various forms of thought (mainly mysticism) and attempted to synthesize them into something new. He blends Buddhism, Sufism, a little Zoroastrianism, early Christian esotericism, and a bunch of others. Kinda like Carl Jung, he is attempting to synthesize what he considers the "real" part of various religions. Beezlebub's Tales is what came out of that meat grinder.

And it's impenetrably hard to read. The first sentence of the book is like a page and a half long. The sentences are lengthy and difficult, twisting, filled with subclauses and parenthetical explanations... you basically cannot skim it. Your habitual mind will not be able to get a toehold. You can only absorb the information through concentration. And even then, it's abstract, metaphorical. So you have to crunch through it again afterwards before the meaning shines through. Gurdjieff meant the book as training wheels, teaching you how to focus and persevere. He said the book is like a yard with bones buried in it. You're the dog who wants the bones, but you have to search and dig.


Right at the beginning of the boo, Big G challenges you, "You're about to embark on something really difficult, and you won't know if it's worth it until you're done, so why even bother?"

This is a stretch, but it reminds me of this website Searchlores.org - searchlores was about cultivating this certain relationship with the internet, thinking about it like an ecosystem, learning how to find any information with a single query... The webpage itself was set up to look like it came from 1993.

And this "web of yesteryear" aesthetic was intentional - anybody who had just showed up for a quick bite of info, who wanted knowledge handed to them in a flashy, bite sized, easy to digest package, would immediately be turned off. The searchlores crowd didn't care to attract anybody that couldn't look beneath the surface.

In a similar way, Gurdjieff is saying "Hey, I'm not your teacher. I'll show you the process I used to wake up, but I'm not going to make it 'easy'. You have to do the work yourself or none of this will have any meaning."

That's a big thing to him - anything you acquire without effort will have no value to you.



the modern mind reels



anyway,

I would NOT recommend starting with Beezlebub's Tales. It's too obnoxious.

The Fourth Way, by Ouspensky, is a much better intro (though I can't say that definitively as I haven't finished it): https://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/Ouspensky-The_Fourth_Way.pdf

I've heard good things about Gurdjieff Unveiled, but I have only got like 20 pages deep: https://www.theosophical.org/files/resources/books/Gurdjieff/GUNVEILEDFINALWHOLEBOOK1_3_05d.pdf


EDIT TO ADD:
I now think the best starting point is In Search of the Miraculous, by PD Ouspensky:
http://www.gurdjieff.am/in-search/index.pdf
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 12, 2017, 06:55:06 PM
I was surprised to find there is an intersection of Gurdjieff thought and Rave culture - this is a good essay https://web.archive.org/web/20160415062812/https://duversity.org/archives/rave.html
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 12, 2017, 07:03:31 PM
The writer Henry Miller on Gurdjieff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycrVil9mrCc

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 12:28:43 AM
Oh also, this youtube series is really good, breaks the whole thing down into quick little lessons with practical exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyD07twyc6E&list=PLe6rk0a53V_zfZj3aq32sxvNbtHh0qLQY
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: rong on April 13, 2017, 09:27:59 PM
Thanks for sharing.

I'm curious - do you actually believe in Gurdjieff (or his ideas) - or do you simply find them interesting?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 09:48:52 PM
There is no Faith in the fourth way. The Gurdjieff Work places a high emphasis on verifying things yourself.

There is a gnostic vibe to it; you can get info from teachers, but your knowledge must come from direct experience--anything else is a castle built on sand.

I will say that I'm in the process of verification. Still exploring. I don't have enough info to believe or disbelieve.



A few parts of it are rock solid to me though. There are a lot of Gurdjieff topics that resonate strongly with my own experiences. I've had my own gnostic-mystical-holy shit-experiences where some things came into focus. The less said about this, the better. But when you've been there, you can recognize when other people are talking about the same thing.

When Gurdjieff talks about as the self as something larger than the ego, when he talks about the universe as an organism and the correspondence between macro and micro - that stuff is exactly what I spent years exploring in my Fractal Cult project. His talk about us having "Many Selves" with their own agendas matches perfectly with the model of self presented in the Art of Memetics, which I do buy into. So a lot of the Gurdjieff work is like different language for stuff I already had inside of me.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 13, 2017, 10:37:38 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 12:28:43 AM
Oh also, this youtube series is really good, breaks the whole thing down into quick little lessons with practical exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyD07twyc6E&list=PLe6rk0a53V_zfZj3aq32sxvNbtHh0qLQY

I'm a bit over halfway through this. SO MANY SHIRTS!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 14, 2017, 12:38:04 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on April 13, 2017, 10:37:38 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 12:28:43 AM
Oh also, this youtube series is really good, breaks the whole thing down into quick little lessons with practical exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyD07twyc6E&list=PLe6rk0a53V_zfZj3aq32sxvNbtHh0qLQY

I'm a bit over halfway through this. SO MANY SHIRTS!

I have just started and already  :lulz:

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 15, 2017, 04:46:31 AM
Quote from: Xaz on April 14, 2017, 12:38:04 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on April 13, 2017, 10:37:38 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 13, 2017, 12:28:43 AM
Oh also, this youtube series is really good, breaks the whole thing down into quick little lessons with practical exercises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyD07twyc6E&list=PLe6rk0a53V_zfZj3aq32sxvNbtHh0qLQY

I'm a bit over halfway through this. SO MANY SHIRTS!

I have just started and already  :lulz:



I want to do something like this format but horrible and Discordian AF. Like possibly involving ORANGES.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 15, 2017, 04:48:07 AM
More sincerely Cramulus I think you and others might get a kick out of this vid about Samadhi. It's a little campy at first, but the folks know their subject for sure.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw9zSMsKcwk (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw9zSMsKcwk)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 19, 2017, 03:19:23 PM
I've got the Invite. On Thursday, I'm going to a more intimate meeting with a smaller number of people.

On May 21st, I have tickets to see a live presentation of the Sacred Movements. That's really exciting; they haven't been presented in NYC since like 1962, and before that, 1923.


I found another Bill Murray video where he obliquely references the Fourth Way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4UgNDyS188&list=LLms0UnarvQV7mj_B7zT9MPw&index=1&t=4s


He talks about the secrets he was taught, about living, and how it transformed his life. Being relaxed, having fun doing whatever you're doing, living in the moment...


I like how Bill reminds himself... "This is it," he tells himself, "This your life, you only get one, this isn't a dress rehearsal."


I was on the subway the other day, just waiting for 20 minutes while we approached grand central. Bill's words rung in my ears - this isn't just a transition between point A and point B, THIS IS IT, this is living, make the most of it! 1 face smiles.

Every moment is the holy moment. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_41rSSl9Qc)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 21, 2017, 04:55:27 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 19, 2017, 03:19:23 PM
I've got the Invite. On Thursday, I'm going to a more intimate meeting with a smaller number of people.



How was it? Or do you mean next week
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 21, 2017, 05:56:21 PM
It was alright. It was mostly a "getting to know you" session with ~10 people. We talked about why we were here, what we were looking to get out of it. It was kinda short.

I talked a little bit about how Discordianism is this soup of networked ideas, and I kept bumping into Gurdjieff through Wilson and other writers. But they didn't want to hear my reading list, they wanted to hear WHY these ideas interest me.

So I talked about my personal mind-fuck ego-death experience that I had ~6 years ago, how it profoundly shifted my understanding of myself and humans in general.


I was able to feel this vital life force animating the meat machine - and it's an ancient force.. It's been growing and exploring and reaching towards the sun since the first organisms.

And when I was outside of the ego, I was able to recognize the ancient vital force as ME. That's the real me, not the ego, not the everyday identity. I was able to see that my ego/identity is basically just an interference pattern generated from the interaction between two fields (accidents of birth and culture) and had very little "realness" to it.

And I think that when Gurdjieff talks about self-remembering - how a real moment of self-remembering transcends the ego - he's talking about the same thing I experienced. It profoundly changed me, and I want to get back there. If Gurdjieff has tools that will help me understand and explore that experience, then I'll take a ticket please.


They're setting up a "work group" - that's a small group of people that meet regularly and talk about their inner work. We'll read one chapter of "In Search of the Miraculous" every week, and then discuss. It'll last about 10 weeks. It's kind of a pain in the ass for me to get to it, but I think I want to do it.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 15, 2017, 03:31:04 PM
Update:

I had to fight my way in, like Meatloaf standing on the front porch of Project Mayhem.

Originally, I gave a wishy washy answer about whether I could make a Monday meeting. It's a long drive for me, and it conflicts with another thing I have. So consequently, they never gave me the invite. I had to reschedule some stuff and then check back in... then I got the invite to the reading group. Went to one last week.

I'm about four chapters deep in In Search of the Miraculous. In this book, Ouspensky is sharing the tale of how he met Gurdjieff and what it was like being in his orbit. Because of its narrative style, this book reads much smoother than the other Gurdjieff books I've picked up. It also shows another side of G, one I've seen other people mention - the man definitely comes off as a charlatan at times. In the first two chapters, Gurdjieff spends a lot of time setting up the Hard Sell... basically saying, look, you can't figure this stuff out on your own. You need a teacher... here's why you need me:


                      BILLY MAYS HERE
                                  /
(https://www.gurdjieff.org/G43.jpg)

-You could study the way of the Fakir and it will take years of training before you have mastered your physical body and have a chance to build the "divine body",
-OR You could study the way of the Monk and spend months mastering your emotions, and then have a chance to create that divine body,
-OR You could study the way of the Yogi and, after really diligent training and mastery of the intellect, you can have meditative experiences in which you'll feel the stirrings of your divine body...
-OR you could study THE FOURTH WAY and work on all three centers at once - it's still a lot of work. But you don't have to quit all your shit and go study at a monastery... in the Fourth Way, you figure out how to escape the black iron prison, develop a soul, while immersed in everyday life.

It has an aura of salesmanship...

He also talks about "immortality", though he's never clear about what he means. A lot of people approach Gurdjieff because they want to learn occult secrets. He kinda teases them, or gives them a run-around. When he talks about immortality, he never resolves whether he's talking about creating some eternal essence that is preserved after death, or a more abstract kinda of immortality via having REALLY EXISTED in the world and leaving a legacy. it seems like he doesn't even want to talk about immortality except that people keep asking him about it.


Gurdjieff was a really intense character, people loved him, but he made a lot of people hate him too. That's a normal reaction to these super extreme people. In reading criticisms of Gurdjieff, you see a lot of that - that he could be absolutely terrible when he wanted to be. It seems like he's still in control of his emotions even when he's raging... people say that Gurdjieff could be screaming at one moment, and in the next breath, when it's no longer needed, turn it all off and go right back to a calm tea.


Burns recently linked me to this page discussing the meeting between Crowley and Gurdjieff: http://www.ptmistlberger.com/why-remarkable-men-rarely-meet.php ----------------


QuoteCrowley arrived for a whole weekend and spent the time like any other visitor to the Prieure; being shown the grounds and the activities in progress, listening to Gurdjieff's music and his oracular conversation. Apart from some circumspection, Gurdjieff treated him like any other guest until the evening of his departure. After dinner on Sunday night, Gurdjieff led the way out of the dining room with Crowley, followed by the body of the pupils who had also been at the meal. Crowley made his way toward the door and turned to take his leave of Gurdjieff, who by this time was some way up the stairs to the second floor. "Mister, you go?" Gurdjieff inquired. Crowley assented. "You have been guest?"—a fact which the visitor could hardly deny. "Now you go, you are no longer guest?"

Crowley—no doubt wondering whether his host had lost his grip on reality and was wandering in a semantic wilderness – humored his mood by indicating that he was on his way back to Paris. But Gurdjieff, having made the point that he was not violating the canons of hospitality, changed on the instant into the embodiment of righteous anger. "You filthy," he stormed, "you dirty inside! Never again you set foot in my house!" From his vantage point on the stairs, he worked himself into a rage which quite transfixed his watching pupils. Crowley was stigmatized as the sewer of creation was taken apart and trodden into the mire. Finally, he was banished in the style of East Lynne by a Gurdjieff in fine histrionic form. White faced and shaking, the Great Beast crept back to Paris with his tail between his legs.


by the way, there's another section of that doc which I found interesting - it unpacks the double edged sword that is the "guru" figure:

Quote...my master is myself—lies at the heart of the ancient Eastern tradition of "guru-yoga," something found in both Hindu and Tibetan Buddhist traditions. The essential idea behind it is to see that the spiritual teacher is, in principle, a reflection of the awakened self within the seeker. To regard one's teacher as the "buddha-mind" as they put in some Buddhist traditions, is a generally trustworthy way to accelerate one's spiritual progress, because it gives a good opportunity to subdue the ego, which by nature does not trust in the higher values represented by the guru's teaching and seeks to maintain separation and ego-identity at all costs. (This was also the rationale behind Osho's "device" of creating lockets for his disciples containing a photo of himself).

Of course it is a given that such an approach carries a risk factor, because to regard one's teacher as a reflection of one's awakened self assumes that the teacher is a worthy representative of such. But a subtler point behind guru-yoga is that it has the power to override "imperfections" in the guru. Put simply it is possible to attain significant spiritual realization in the company of a flawed teacher. Likewise, it is also possible to experience considerable disillusionment and pain when associating with a teacher who turns out to have greater character flaws than one might have initially imagined.




I am still finding the Gurdjieff work really challenging. Sometimes I read something that actually really upsets me, like Gurdjieff bandying about some sincerely unscientific proposition  - stuff that was still a bit believable in 1910, that wouldn't hold up now. Then I sleep on it, and I can see that there is a layer of metaphor. And that's like a key... once I understand the metaphor, it "unlocks" that passage and I can get what he means. The trial, IMO, is to not fall into the trap of justifying everything he's saying, but remaining critical all the time. That's also Gurdjieff's intent... just like Robert Anton Wilson, he doesn't want you to just accept what he's saying. He wants you to question it, test it for yourself. Stay in the critical mind.



I have more to say, but that was a long post already.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 15, 2017, 03:43:36 PM
Just to touch base again with why this might be interesting to some of you --- Gurdjieff literally wrote about the Black Iron Prison and the Jailbreak a full century before we did. He and his followers spent their lives figuring out how to describe and escape from this "inner slavery".

He described two "walls" in our cell:

-We are slaves to what Gurdjieff calls "considering", which is being concerned with what other people think of us. This is an ego-drive and it keeps us anchored in the smaller, immediate, local parts of the self.

-And we're victims of "identification", which is basically becoming what you experience. When you feel something, it takes over. Most of the time, you have no objectivity about it, and no point of view outside of it.


A lot of the Gurdjieff work involves practical exercises in which you can begin to free yourself of these traps.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Ziegejunge on May 15, 2017, 04:43:42 PM
Just a quick note to say thanks again for this, Cram!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 15, 2017, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Ziegejunge on May 15, 2017, 04:43:42 PM
Just a quick note to say thanks again for this, Cram!

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 16, 2017, 03:03:11 PM
Just want to chase some thoughts I've been having about the Gurdjieff work...

The Medium is the Message
Marshall McLuhan wrote a lot about the 'modal shift' between "tribal" culture and "literary" culture. Electric media, like TV and Radio nd the Internet, represent a return to tribal organizations. In pre-gutenberg times, before the printing press, knowledge was shared through these special tribes. Groups would have a shared, collective understanding of something, and would impart knowledge to newcomers piecemeal. Learning was personal, nonlinear. There are types of knowledge that can be transmitted through this medium, and not as well through the newer linear-literary medium. The study of the spirit is one of these types of knowledge... in the shift towards literary culture, we lost the best methods for transmitting some of these truths.


The Carpet Dance
Gurdjieff invokes the image of these old-world villages where carpets were made. Carpet making, he explains, is an ancient art. There used to be a lot of symbolism and ceremony in how a carpet was manufactured. In some places, an entire village would come together and make a carpet in one day. The village would be divided into different groups ,each group had a job.. and as they did these jobs, they'd be singing special carpet-making songs and doing special dances. Each motion in the dance had a meaning built up over centuries. All these dances came together to make a carpet. The music and symbolism and dance steps brought everybody's consciousness together, rolled it into a big ball. It was like the village became one entity, united through this task.

That's part of what Gurdjieff means when he's talking about Self Remembering... there is a mind, a self, that is bigger than the ego. We all share it, in some small way. We forget this, because we're distracted by the ego, we think the ego is the whole self.  (The Sacred Dances are a way of remembering this)


The Loss of Secret Knowledge
There was a lot of knowledge lost when we moved from tribal to linear / literary culture. There's a myth of progress, that we just keep advancing over time, and anything going on now is probably more advanced than anything happening in the past. And that's true in a lot of ways, but there are also types of knowledge that can't be encoded well into a linear, textual medium. They were lost. The modern mind thinks "eh, if it was lost, it probably wasn't valuable" - and "scientism" feeds into this as well - the idea that Truth is best captured through our modern empirical framework and cannot come from anywhere else.

But let's look at an example... One topic I keep thinking about is Automatons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY_wfKVjuJM). These super cool robots were built in the 18th century by these guilds of craftsman.. The knowledge of how to build these things was secret, just passed between master and apprentice when the apprentice was ready. And because this knowledge was hidden behind a veil of initiation, it was never encoded so that somebody could just read a book about it. When the guild structure collapsed, their secrets vanished. But they were cool secrets! Without computers, these guilds were able to produce these insanely complicated clockwork machines. We still don't know how they did it - and nobody alive today can make one.

So it is with matters of the spirit. People spent their entire lives studying the internal world. There was a rich network of symbolism and techniques which were used to pass on this information. A lot of this was lost. Or the modern version of it is reduced to a silhouette.

Tarot, for example, is basically just for fortune telling today. But it used to be part of a larger spiritual system... the goal of which is to transform the Fool into the World.

Alchemy... people think of alchemy as proto-chemistry.. those are the only parts of alchemy we care about today. But all that material stuff it dealt with (turning lead into gold, etc) was just a metaphor for its ultimate aim, which is to study SPIRITUAL transformation. How DOES a shitty person become a better person? Through these processes like calcination, fermentation, there is something (almost like a chemical process) which happens to the spirit. If you want to turn iron into steel, or you want to focus your life and will into a harder substance, it's a similar process ... you heat it up, you burn out the slag and impurities, you pour it into a form...

ahh I'm on a tangent...

What I'm getting at is --

The Incompleteness Theorem of the Self
There are lots of ways to understand the self. No single way can reach every truth. Gurdjieff was missing out on modern science. But science is an incomplete picture too. If we insist on understanding the world using empiricism alone, we abandon the network of symbolism and meaning that humanity developed over thousands of years. You know what I mean here? There are truths you can reach through, say, Buddhism, that can't be expressed in terms of empirical findings which could be laid out in a textbook; they're too subjective, personal, internal, symbolic...

I share this only because it's a demon I had to defeat in myself - scientism and the dominance of literary culture. My reactive mind, armed with an experimental psych degree, rejected or dismissed anything that didn't fit into its linear/literary "mode".

That's part of why I'm on this Reality Safari - to explore what else is out there.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 17, 2017, 03:20:08 AM
At the meeting tonight (Week 3 of 6), I asked about the bad science.

Because like, Gurdjieff tosses around a lot of stuff which is plausible if it's 1910.

In one case, he hits the nail on the head - he thinks the moon was formed when a comet hit the still-molten earth. Nobody in 1910 believed that. We would figure out that this is probably true in the 1990s.

But a lot of it is just ... weird. Like he talks about how the moon might one day have life on it, but it's too young now.. it's still gathering energy to grow up and be a real planet. Stuff like that. I wanted to know - how do the older people feel about that stuff? Do you just ignore it, because Gurdjieff wasn't actually a scientist and is just kinda speculating? Do you say "Ah but this is is actually just a metaphor", and then try to extract some esoteric truth from it?

I asked about the moon, and the dated non-science. This old timer at the meeting tonight gave me a good answer, "The cosmology which Gurdjieff sets up... all the stuff about how the planets are formed and the energies that pass between them... If you ask a lot of people why they like this stuff, very few people mention his cosmology. It's just part of the way he talks about the world. But it's definitely not literally true, and it's not even the most interesting thing about Gurdjieff's ideas.  If you get frustrated by the science, don't sweat it - move on to something else."

well that's cool, I'm glad they're not going crazy trying to rationalize some of the bizarre ideas that Gurdjieff drops. Like how the moon feeds on organic matter, and if humanity was collectively enlightened the moon would starve.  :lol:

It made me feel better that there isn't this huge serious grayface effort to rationalize all that. When I read something absurd from the book we're reading, the old timers laughed too.

The guy said to us - All of Gurdjieff's propositions, you have to verify them for yourself. Don't just take it on him that it's true. If he says that human life is food for the moon, you can't really observe that yourself, so don't worry about it. But stuff he says is happening inside of you - like how most of the time, we are asleep, or we are stuck in a prison and one of the things confining us is our obsession with what others think of us.... you can look at yourself and verify if that's true or not. That's where you have to start.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on May 17, 2017, 05:11:03 PM
Oh man.  L Ron definitely ripped some of this off for the Scientology pastiche.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 18, 2017, 02:39:25 AM
Quote from: LMNO on May 17, 2017, 05:11:03 PM
Oh man.  L Ron definitely ripped some of this off for the Scientology pastiche.

The whole Scientology thing apparently started off as a gag that got out of control, so I don't doubt that a bit.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 18, 2017, 05:37:12 PM
So, speaking of Scientology....

Part of why I haven't been enthusiastically participating in this discussion is that I get hella triggered when people start lolling about joining cults. I spent a long time dealing with people who had escaped an abusive one, and people who were never members but ended up at war with them one way or another. Prior to that, I've had friends who had Really Bad Experiences with smaller, low key cults. I'm not an expert, but I've got a good background in the subject and a lot of weird history to draw from. Lots of shrapnel, I believe is the correct term.

Right now everything seems fine and dandy, and that's great. But I never once talked to someone who left a cult saying "it always sounded like horseshit." They always make a lot of sense at first. They always require a lot of buy in before they get to the weird stuff (at least the successful ones do). And I'm not saying that to try to ruin your fun, I know you gotta cut the rational part of your brain loose a little bit and see where it goes with these things.

The question is what are you doing to keep yourself safe? Do you have hard lines you won't accept with these guys? Do you have people outside you're keeping in the loop, who you trust enough to call you out if you start to fade into this thing?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Junkenstein on May 18, 2017, 11:23:53 PM
To the last part, typical cult behavior is grabbing those with no or very poor support systems. It's one of the things that helps people get attached to gurus and other untouchable authority figures. No attachments in your old life but now you belong.

Friendless orphans with money are basically a typical cults bread and butter. Yes, this does mean Bruce Wayne is probably a secret hare Krishna.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 19, 2017, 01:24:21 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 18, 2017, 11:23:53 PM
To the last part, typical cult behavior is grabbing those with no or very poor support systems. It's one of the things that helps people get attached to gurus and other untouchable authority figures. No attachments in your old life but now you belong.

Friendless orphans with money are basically a typical cults bread and butter. Yes, this does mean Bruce Wayne is probably a secret hare Krishna.

This is my general impression.  I'm not an expert on the subject, though.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Junkenstein on May 19, 2017, 02:35:05 AM
I'm no expert on batman either. Layman's view.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 19, 2017, 05:03:48 PM
I wrote a reply to QGP yesterday and then the Internets ated it.  :cry:

Okay, good question...

So, I keep throwing around the phrase "the cult I joined", etc - part of it is tongue in cheek, part of it is the oldschool definition of cult:


I am really sensitive to the traps that actual cults use to suck people in and convert them. Here's why I think I'm safe here:


I mean really, this feels more like joining a yoga group than a religion.

As for how I'm protecting myself - I braced myself from day 1 that I'll hit the ejector button as soon as I start feeling somebody's will overshadowing mine. It would be really easy to walk away.

I think everybody recognizes that G does come off as a bit of a charlatan at times. That keeps my guard up.

I have also alerted my friends to my strange spiritual experiment. When I discovered Taoism at age 15 and Discordianism a few years later, I was intolerable. I became a preachy, insufferable spag. I've asked my friends to let me know if this starts to happen again.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 19, 2017, 05:10:34 PM
That all sounds really solid. I'll admit my interest in how you're keeping your metaphorical helmet on isn't strictly altruistic. I am sometimes bad about falling into holes (although not this particular one) and I have a lot of interest in how people protect themselves while engaging in crazy shit.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Bu🤠ns on May 20, 2017, 03:59:18 AM
Bill Murray helps a bit


ETA: Also discordianism itself has precautions in place.  I'd be more concerned about someone who didn't hold the values of TFYS and the prohibition of believing everything one reads.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Bu🤠ns on May 20, 2017, 04:24:35 AM
Cram--not sure if you checked out any of that blogger's other articles but they're quite interesting.  He often compares krishnamurdi, osho, and gurdijieff and their methods. I'm glad i checked in to this thread because it reminds me to follow up on that.

QuoteHe described two "walls" in our cell:

-We are slaves to what Gurdjieff calls "considering", which is being concerned with what other people think of us. This is an ego-drive and it keeps us anchored in the smaller, immediate, local parts of the self.

-And we're victims of "identification", which is basically becoming what you experience. When you feel something, it takes over. Most of the time, you have no objectivity about it, and no point of view outside of it.

A lot of the Gurdjieff work involves practical exercises in which you can begin to free yourself of these traps.


When i read this thread I'm constantly reminded of how these different things you describe resemble other spiritual practices.  Mantra, for example is basically a self-remembering technique. Repeat a a phrase and combine it with beads. Then feed all the experiences from the above two points waaaaaaay up inside the mantra.

A lot of it seems to separate out the pieces for better organization especially if one's habits and routines resemble the  automaton.

I'm curious if any of Shiva's 112 Meditation Techniques (https://o-meditation.com/2010/12/02/shivas-112-meditation-techniques/) resemble any of the techniques you read about. I can only find this in reference to Osho, but it seems legit enough.  Plus I think Osho ripped off Gurdjieff all to hell--especially with movement and plain old physical activity. So at any rate, I'm curious as to how they compare.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 22, 2017, 07:10:11 PM
Last night, I went to the Gurdjieff foundation's presentation of the Sacred Dances.

As I mentioned, this is the first time in over 50 years that the Gurdjieff foundation has presented the dances in public. Before that, it was another 50 years.

I wasn't allowed to take any video or pictures, but I did manage to sneak in a few:

(https://i.imgur.com/cRkQLmj.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/LKPdK7d.jpg)

It's kind of hard to describe - if you look up the gurdjieff sacred movements on youtube, it'll give you a sense of what it looks like.

These were really incredible. It was like watching a living machine. A conscious machine! Like a human engine that is not automatic, but deciding to move in perfect sync.

The dances aren't shown to the public because they're really not a performance. They're more like a form of meditation, or prayer. Each movement references some aspect or law of the universe. As the dancer moves their body, they are meditating on its meaning. If you're in the dance, there is a group energy, a group mind which can be felt.

Through this dance, one can momentarily shed ones subjectivity. This is not the silence and stillness of zen, or the frenzy of the ecstatic... it's something else... they say the dances are a study of the transformation of energy.


Watching them in person, I was really blown away. Haven't had my mind blown like that in a long time! It looks like an incredible amount of work, to learn to move in a group like that, in perfect sync, with that degree of precision and specificity.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 22, 2017, 10:17:36 PM
Quote from: Bu☆ns on May 20, 2017, 04:24:35 AM
When i read this thread I'm constantly reminded of how these different things you describe resemble other spiritual practices.  Mantra, for example is basically a self-remembering technique. Repeat a a phrase and combine it with beads. Then feed all the experiences from the above two points waaaaaaay up inside the mantra.

A lot of it seems to separate out the pieces for better organization especially if one's habits and routines resemble the  automaton.

That's one of the cool things about the Gurdjieff work. He was initiated into a LOT of different spiritual traditions. A lot of the stuff he presents can be found elsewhere, but described from a different angle. It kinda feels like Gurdjieff tried to touch the proverbial elephant in lots of different places.  :fap:


Zen teachers say: you think too much, you talk too much, your reasoning apparatus doesn't know how to take a break, you forget  the "primal" self... (the same 'primal' we're talking about when we say 'primal chaos', the world unfiltered by the mind)



MY UNDERSTANDING (which may be wrong) is that in Mantra meditation, you are basically going deep into the mechanical part of the self. You repeat the mantra over and over again, until it's automatic, until it becomes you, until the person who is saying the mantra is gone and only the mantra is left.

One of the reasons that a lot of mantras are nonsense words (OM MANI PADME HUM) is that you don't want the intellectual part of the self to get stuck in the 'meaning', where it will start free associating and taking you down these little side-paths. During mantra meditation, you want to stay in the mechanical, automatic mind while there is no self.

The goal of this practice is to develop a "solid core", to gain mastery over the random impulses and stray thoughts and daydreams that pull our mental arrows off target.


Gurdjieff thinks, by the way, that this is an "unbalanced" way of training. The zen student has to learn to stop the thoughts that create the world. THEN, they basically have to re-learn to think and feel. Zen says - the intellect and emotions get in the way... if you silence them, what's left? Let's stay there for a little while, that's where the real self lives. If you hang out there long enough, you might meet him!


Gurdjieff, on the other hand, is presenting a way of working on all the "centers" at once. That is, you are not trying to quiet your intellect and emotions. You are trying to observe them, and eventually understand them, and eventually, control them. Zen starts at the other end: trying to control the mind and the emotions, and then discovering the self. Gurdjieff understands the self as fractured, as having no unity. We can't discover the self unless we can take in the whole mosaic at once.



And as a point of order - Gurdjieff doesn't think his work is better than zen, or that zen students are training wrong. It's just a different approach!


QuoteI'm curious if any of Shiva's 112 Meditation Techniques (https://o-meditation.com/2010/12/02/shivas-112-meditation-techniques/) resemble any of the techniques you read about. I can only find this in reference to Osho, but it seems legit enough.  Plus I think Osho ripped off Gurdjieff all to hell--especially with movement and plain old physical activity. So at any rate, I'm curious as to how they compare.

yeah, reading over this, it feels like there's some shared area

I'd need to study it more, though, before I can say anything interesting about it


and even then, what I say will be boring
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 01, 2017, 03:14:44 PM
On God's Omnipotence....

I liked this passage. The Absolute Will (ie whatever causal factor started the cascade of the big bang, the suns, the planets, life on the planets, you, me, this sentence you're reading right now) isn't involved in the day to day affairs of the universe. The universe functions according to laws and principles which can be understood.


Quote from: In Search of the Miraculous, by PD Ouspensky
We had many talks about the idea of miracles, and about the fact that the Absolute cannot manifest its will in our world and that this will manifests itself only in the form of mechanical laws and cannot manifest itself by violating these laws....

"Give me an example of something that the Lord cannot do," said the bishop.

"It won't take long to do that, your Eminence," answered the seminarist. "Everyone knows that even the Lord himself cannot beat the ace of trumps with the ordinary deuce."


"There was more sense in this silly story than in a thousand theological treatises. The laws of a game make the essence of the game. A violation of these laws would destroy the entire game. The Absolute can as little interfere in our life and substitute other results in the place of the natural results of causes created by us, or created accidentally, as he can beat the ace of trumps with the deuce. Turgenev wrote somewhere that all ordinary prayers can be reduced to one: "Lord, make it so that twice two be not four." This is the same thing as the ace of trumps of the seminarist."




Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 01, 2017, 07:39:52 PM
I just wanted to touch briefly on a topic that's all over Gurdjieff. It's called the Ray of Creation.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Ray_of_creation.jpg/220px-Ray_of_creation.jpg)     (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-E2Y6HFFdxZU/USS6WmI_iOI/AAAAAAAAAdA/JoAHPunXuNs/s1600/ray+of+creation+by+Orage.jpg)

The story goes like this:

In the beginning, there's the raw uncut universe, called the Absolute. The primal singularity. The original Causal Factor. All that exists, undivided. Everything at once.

Whatever that is - produced all the suns in the universe, including ours.

And the laws which govern stuff at that size led to the formation of planets, including ours.

When you get down to planet-size, there are different laws. From these factors, life on earth emerged.

Emerging from the laws which govern life on earth, some of it eventually developed consciousness, analytical thought, became capable of examining itself and its environment... As sagan puts it:

(http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-we-are-the-universe-experiencing-itself-carl-sagan-86-34-15.jpg)

I think it's beautiful.

There is a spark inside of me, animating me. This spark was forged in the big bang, it's a direct product of this primordial cosmic process. As it descends into increasingly fine levels of the universe, it becomes subject to different laws. Layer by layer, it eventually becomes a human life. So the big bang didn't just create stars and stuff like that, it also created you and me. The Big Bang created consciousness. The big bang created you reading these words on a monitor.


And then what? What follows consciousness, in the ray of creation? What will consciousness eventually produce? To what end does the universe want to know itself?

Nobody knows, of course.

Gurdjieff says that organic life on earth is like an "energy collector". Organic life is building up this "potential". When the potential reaches a certain threshold, the next thing will emerge.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 16, 2017, 02:34:43 PM
An idea that's been spinning in my head like a gif from angelfire, by way of Jacob Needleman (http://www.gurdjieff-internet.com/article_details.php?ID=358&W=72) (podcast (https://soundcloud.com/tnscommonweal/161121-jacob-needleman-gurdjieff-a-life-in-the-work))


The scientific atheism of our time is a necessary purgative - it strips us down to a place where we might understand God in a completely different way.





Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on June 16, 2017, 02:43:51 PM
Oh man, I completely missed this thread until now... looks like I have some weekend reading to do.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 16, 2017, 03:14:56 PM
I have so much to say and I don't have a clue where to start. Guess I'll start with the material facts... This isn't a polished essay, I'm going to ramble, so forgive me in advance and bear with me.

I made it through 7 weeks of the In Search Of the Miraculous book club. It was an interesting and challenging experience. I struggled for a while with the "science" behind what Gurdjieff was saying. Ultimately, I made a mental breakthrough when I spotted the parts where Ouspensky warns us not to take it too literally. We're in deep metaphor country. And through that lens, all the stuff I struggled with became so beautiful and personally meaningful.

For example, I wrote about the Ray of Creation. Ouspensky describes the Ray as this emanation from the creation of the universe which cascades down into smaller tiers of existence. Something created all the galaxies, the stars, our star, the planets, our planets, life on our planet... and that same creative force is present in us. Ouspensky wrote about how the edge of the ray of creation is the moon, and that one day once it has been fed with the energies and collective processing power of humanity*, it will be green... but I think the moon is better understood there as a metaphor for whatever it is that humanity is creating.


*this idea of humanity as a collective processor... it kinda reminds me of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where Adams presents the earth as a giant computer. Every living being on earth is contributing to the grand calculation of the meaning of life.

That's very in line with Gurdjieff's thinking. It's kinda like - the birth of modern democracy required centuries of "processing" feudalism. Years of painful serfhood and subjectivity (as in 'being a subject') created this collective need for something better. And when that fire grew hot enough to destroy feudalism, we lit our torches and headed for the castles. Our suffering served some (at the time) invisible future purpose.

And in this similar way, humanity is creating something else, beyond what exists now. We're all involved in it, as we live our lives and pay taxes and argue with people online. This isn't just humanity, it's the whole universe pushing its way into consciousness through us, creating the universe through us.

At larger scales, "creation" looks like suns and planets being formed, huge masses of plasma spinning through space. At smaller scales of creation, this same process looks like you and me.


anyway

That's an example of me coming through the eye of the needle and expanding my narrow literal understanding.

Seven weeks of the meetings... the group dwindled from a dozen down to about 5 (plus the three leaders). In that smaller group, the real discussions started. I felt like I was really able to engage and ask my questions.

And like many good mystery cults, it ended with mystery, something else behind another veil. The speakers would not tell me more about the sacred movements, or about the stuff you do later in the work. They give a coy smile and say we've just scratched the surface. One of them explained that this group is partly about us seeing if we really like these Gurdjieff ideas. And it's also about the Gurdjieff Foundation seeing if they really like us, if we're ready to learn more.

They told us to keep reading, and that they'd be in contact. After the summer, there are going to be more meetings. But I think we'll only find out about them if we're invited.

One of the cool things about the Gurdjieff work that's unlike esoteric mystery cults... other groups ask you do to the "work" before they teach you the "secrets". Gurdjieff arranged it backwards. He tells you the secrets right up front, and then slowly reveals the Work which will help you fully understand them.

I want to wear the robes and do the dances and share consciousness.  So I'm going to hang on.


I think they like me because I'm a skeptic. I'm very critical of everything we're being told. I often challenge the "elders" in this group... I said a few weeks ago - one of the things I've struggled with for 15 years now is the idea of free will.

There's a "law" in behavioral psychology called the Melioration Principle. It says that an organism will engage in a behavior until a competing behavior offers a better reward. You can see this every day, in everything you do. When you make a choice, what you're doing is really just a quantitative weighing of rewards. And doesn't that sound mechanical? Does that seem like free will? It seems like free will is just solving this calculus equation.

Gurdjieff says there's a way out of this. That there are moments when you can escape this inner slavery. Moments when your actions aren't mechanically dictated by external circumstances. With work, with awareness of the internal world, with "conscious labor and intentional suffering", we can achieve brief moments of internal freedom.

And I say: I will believe it when I see it.

But I'm not dismissing it until I have walked down the path myself. If this kind of freedom is possible, I want to taste it.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Bu🤠ns on June 18, 2017, 03:45:33 PM
Hey Cram, thanks for keeping up with this. I see you what you mean by not knowing where to start. Just reading your posts alone, my brain keeps wanting to branch out and correlate the different associations that arise.

Do keep up, it's kind of cool having one of our own explore this relatively obscure practice
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: POFP on July 31, 2017, 09:09:56 PM
I'm not sure why I'm only just now seeing this thread, but I second what Burns said.

Your writing and critical thinking styles make it very easy to understand the concepts you're tossing around in your head. The analogies are clear and concise, and you tell it all in an adventurous and optimistic manner, while still making the past and present tense criticisms known.

I think we all appreciate the attention to detail and the overall dedication to clarity. I just wanted to make that clear, as I know that sometimes, lack of feedback on material that's based on something people aren't normally interested in can cause the author to feel personal disinterest in writing about it.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: POFP on July 31, 2017, 11:02:48 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 16, 2017, 03:14:56 PM

There's a "law" in behavioral psychology called the Melioration Principle. It says that an organism will engage in a behavior until a competing behavior offers a better reward. You can see this every day, in everything you do. When you make a choice, what you're doing is really just a quantitative weighing of rewards. And doesn't that sound mechanical? Does that seem like free will? It seems like free will is just solving this calculus equation.

Gurdjieff says there's a way out of this. That there are moments when you can escape this inner slavery. Moments when your actions aren't mechanically dictated by external circumstances. With work, with awareness of the internal world, with "conscious labor and intentional suffering", we can achieve brief moments of internal freedom.

And I say: I will believe it when I see it.

But I'm not dismissing it until I have walked down the path myself. If this kind of freedom is possible, I want to taste it.

I think application of the Melioration Principle to humans is a bit complicated by higher-order thinking (things like Morality). Except for cases of personality disorders, it's the tendency towards non-rewarding behavior that defines disordered thinking. Keeping this in mind, I would argue that there is a balance to aim for that lies between the addictive mindset that the Melioration Principle implies we, as animals, spend most of our time in, and the Wild West of complete and unhindered Will. And it sounds like Gurdjieff's implication that these periods of Free Will and Self should be "brief moments" hits the nail on the head. In seeing this connection, I recommend looking at the Melioration Principle as a tendency toward extrinsic reward and Free Will as a tendency toward that which fulfills you, intrinsically.

As someone who is engrossed in the addictive mindset of the Melioration Principle, I definitely see the opposite end of the scale. As someone whose attention is immediately grabbed by camera position shifts in a movie on a tiny TV screen in a room containing people in deep discussion, I exemplify the reward-based mindset that you're seeking to overturn, even for short periods of time. I've found that the moments in which this mindset is completely overturned is in those moments that require my unhindered attention in order to fulfill that which protects those who depend on me. Most of the time, it's situations like these that I find the intrinsic reward to be overpowering. It's also in these situations that I sacrifice the most of myself, extrinsically. I think this compromise, this law of give and take, is important.

This fact made me look at something you'd said earlier about the Master-Apprentice communicative relationship, and the limitation of literary communication, a bit differently. I think it's impossible to transfer the Secret, "Spiritual" information without that intrinsic connection to other people. A common theme among these ideas you and Gurdjieff present involve deep connections with other people; a sense of community.

I noticed throughout my life that the most dangerous I ever was, to myself and others, was when I was isolated. I made decisions that were borderline sociopathic, and I would say this time was when I was the least myself. All of my decisions were based on extrinsic reward, and disregarded any sense of community or personal connection. I was unwilling to sacrifice anything for anyone. I would argue that it's this isolation, or romanticization of this isolation in today's society that keeps us from seeing our Selves as often as we should. I think it's what keeps us from realizing the strength and potential in the unexplained power of connection.

And finally, I think I now know what you meant earlier about internet culture taking us back to the tribal communication structure. We're suddenly able to form these tight-knit groups which propagate more complex ideas on specific topics that are able to be expressed by the group from the various perspectives within. One member specializes in one area, and another specializes elsewhere. And the combination gives a broader picture, and that broader picture is the basis of a successful community. Economies are more successful when the community has a singular goal or unified interest. In the late 50s and 60s, it was space exploration and survival of the Cold War, for example. But the big take-away is that one's tribal identity in this internet age is the basis of modern politics. It can be used negatively, even if it was originally used to propagate and pass on Secret information. It's currently being used as a way of waging war on other "Tribes" on the basis that they are immoral. I think we can reach a communal unification and massive shift in tendency toward Free Will (In the more important moments) if we can end the tribal warfare.

I guess the question is, how has tribal warfare ceased, and tribal peace taken over in the past?

I apologize if I got a little off-topic. I was having many epiphanies over the course of reading your explanations, and this is one of the connections I made. If need be, we can make a new thread for this as a separate discussion so as not to derail yours.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on August 01, 2017, 06:22:26 PM
Quote from: PoFP on July 31, 2017, 11:02:48 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 16, 2017, 03:14:56 PM

There's a "law" in behavioral psychology called the Melioration Principle. It says that an organism will engage in a behavior until a competing behavior offers a better reward. You can see this every day, in everything you do. When you make a choice, what you're doing is really just a quantitative weighing of rewards. And doesn't that sound mechanical? Does that seem like free will? It seems like free will is just solving this calculus equation.

Gurdjieff says there's a way out of this. That there are moments when you can escape this inner slavery. Moments when your actions aren't mechanically dictated by external circumstances. With work, with awareness of the internal world, with "conscious labor and intentional suffering", we can achieve brief moments of internal freedom.

And I say: I will believe it when I see it.

But I'm not dismissing it until I have walked down the path myself. If this kind of freedom is possible, I want to taste it.

I think application of the Melioration Principle to humans is a bit complicated by higher-order thinking (things like Morality). Except for cases of personality disorders, it's the tendency towards non-rewarding behavior that defines disordered thinking. Keeping this in mind, I would argue that there is a balance to aim for that lies between the addictive mindset that the Melioration Principle implies we, as animals, spend most of our time in, and the Wild West of complete and unhindered Will. And it sounds like Gurdjieff's implication that these periods of Free Will and Self should be "brief moments" hits the nail on the head. In seeing this connection, I recommend looking at the Melioration Principle as a tendency toward extrinsic reward and Free Will as a tendency toward that which fulfills you, intrinsically.

As someone who is engrossed in the addictive mindset of the Melioration Principle, I definitely see the opposite end of the scale. As someone whose attention is immediately grabbed by camera position shifts in a movie on a tiny TV screen in a room containing people in deep discussion, I exemplify the reward-based mindset that you're seeking to overturn, even for short periods of time. I've found that the moments in which this mindset is completely overturned is in those moments that require my unhindered attention in order to fulfill that which protects those who depend on me. Most of the time, it's situations like these that I find the intrinsic reward to be overpowering. It's also in these situations that I sacrifice the most of myself, extrinsically. I think this compromise, this law of give and take, is important.

This fact made me look at something you'd said earlier about the Master-Apprentice communicative relationship, and the limitation of literary communication, a bit differently. I think it's impossible to transfer the Secret, "Spiritual" information without that intrinsic connection to other people. A common theme among these ideas you and Gurdjieff present involve deep connections with other people; a sense of community.

I noticed throughout my life that the most dangerous I ever was, to myself and others, was when I was isolated. I made decisions that were borderline sociopathic, and I would say this time was when I was the least myself. All of my decisions were based on extrinsic reward, and disregarded any sense of community or personal connection. I was unwilling to sacrifice anything for anyone. I would argue that it's this isolation, or romanticization of this isolation in today's society that keeps us from seeing our Selves as often as we should. I think it's what keeps us from realizing the strength and potential in the unexplained power of connection.

And finally, I think I now know what you meant earlier about internet culture taking us back to the tribal communication structure. We're suddenly able to form these tight-knit groups which propagate more complex ideas on specific topics that are able to be expressed by the group from the various perspectives within. One member specializes in one area, and another specializes elsewhere. And the combination gives a broader picture, and that broader picture is the basis of a successful community. Economies are more successful when the community has a singular goal or unified interest. In the late 50s and 60s, it was space exploration and survival of the Cold War, for example. But the big take-away is that one's tribal identity in this internet age is the basis of modern politics. It can be used negatively, even if it was originally used to propagate and pass on Secret information. It's currently being used as a way of waging war on other "Tribes" on the basis that they are immoral. I think we can reach a communal unification and massive shift in tendency toward Free Will (In the more important moments) if we can end the tribal warfare.

I guess the question is, how has tribal warfare ceased, and tribal peace taken over in the past?

I apologize if I got a little off-topic. I was having many epiphanies over the course of reading your explanations, and this is one of the connections I made. If need be, we can make a new thread for this as a separate discussion so as not to derail yours.

Thanks for reviving the thread PoFP!

On the Melioration Principle and being able to 'escape' it: I get that a lot of decisions aren't necessarily made 'consciously' and maybe through conscious labour etc. one can learn to make better/more informed decisions but ultimately your actions are always going to be dictated by external circumstances right? I can't even comprehend what internal freedom means in this context. Maybe this is my limitation. Maybe the limitation of literary communication.

Re: tribal warfare, I don't think it has ever ceased. Just the tribes we identify with have changed. I don't know if it can cease.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: POFP on August 01, 2017, 07:32:59 PM
Quote from: Vanadium Gryllz on August 01, 2017, 06:22:26 PM
Thanks for reviving the thread PoFP!

On the Melioration Principle and being able to 'escape' it: I get that a lot of decisions aren't necessarily made 'consciously' and maybe through conscious labour etc. one can learn to make better/more informed decisions but ultimately your actions are always going to be dictated by external circumstances right? I can't even comprehend what internal freedom means in this context. Maybe this is my limitation. Maybe the limitation of literary communication.

Re: tribal warfare, I don't think it has ever ceased. Just the tribes we identify with have changed. I don't know if it can cease.

On the Melioration Principle, I think you are completely correct. In-fact I would say that consistently acting based on things not related to your environment would likely be interpreted as crazy in most situations. The Melioration Principle, as far as I understood based on Cramulus's description as well as other descriptions online, implied simply that animals in general do things that they perceive to benefit them (In this context, these would be external benefits, or benefits based on the environment the animal is in). From a neurological standpoint (And this is the standpoint it appeared Cramulus took), that would mean that animals act based on the reward system in the brain, which includes habitual, and conscious behaviors that fit in line with prior positive reinforcement, or lack of negative reinforcement.

The idea behind escaping this trap is to act in a way that represents you, as a person, and that also ignores the reward system's push to act on a simple calculation. It's a form of dissent that promotes the self. Assuming I'm understanding Cramulus's premise correctly, I would say that these moments happen when our higher-order thinking is most at war with the environment. The most blunt example I can think of at the moment was when Roger was urged by his boss to fire someone for invalid reasons. He refused completely, even though his job was at risk for doing so. Every aspect of his environment at the time would likely push most people to self-preservation and the consistent rewarding nature of safety. But not him, not that time. This is a time where I would argue he expressed complete freedom.

I think Cramulus and Gurdjieff were getting at something even more complex than that, however. I suspect they were leading towards an expression of the self outside of just personal morality, one that we can tap into for moments at a time more often if we learn to spot the windows into the complexity of the self in the brief periods in which they manifest. Some of Gurdjieff's work seems to me to be an influence on Crowley, or perhaps they were both influenced by the same person(s)/thing. It reminds me of Crowley's description of one's True Will, in that it seems to be entirely intrinsic, and unaffected by the environment.

I agree, there will likely always be tribal warfare, as there always was during every early civilization. But there were definitely periods of unusual levels of peace and cooperation, regardless of how short-lived. I suspect that study of native tribes and their war/peace timelines, and the relationships between the tribes at the time can tell us more about how this recurring communication structure might affect our politics and relationships, and the outcomes of current conflicts.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on August 15, 2017, 03:22:04 PM
I really appreciate the thoughtful reply, PoFP.

Quote from: PoFP on July 31, 2017, 11:02:48 PM
This fact made me look at something you'd said earlier about the Master-Apprentice communicative relationship, and the limitation of literary communication, a bit differently. I think it's impossible to transfer the Secret, "Spiritual" information without that intrinsic connection to other people. A common theme among these ideas you and Gurdjieff present involve deep connections with other people; a sense of community.

I noticed throughout my life that the most dangerous I ever was, to myself and others, was when I was isolated. I made decisions that were borderline sociopathic, and I would say this time was when I was the least myself. All of my decisions were based on extrinsic reward, and disregarded any sense of community or personal connection. I was unwilling to sacrifice anythinAbg for anyone. I would argue that it's this isolation, or romanticization of this isolation in today's society that keeps us from seeing our Selves as often as we should. I think it's what keeps us from realizing the strength and potential in the unexplained power of connection.

Yes, absolutely - this is why it's said that Gurdjieff work can only be done in groups. Group work creates empathetic bonds between people, and these bonds are channels through which we can actually communicate. When I read your post, I am trying to hear it in your voice, to resonate with the place you're coming from. I'm trying to get a little of your essence into mine. This empathy helps both of us - it helps me understand you, and through it, it gives me another channel to understand myself and how I'm coming off. Consciousness can be increased through group work. (and conversely - a bad group can decrease it - like a predatory cult or religion)

Through this web of relationships, you can start to feel another aspect of the self emerge, the self that is shared between you and me. That's part of what the Sacred Movements are for - by doing these elaborate movements in a group, it develops a sensitivity to each other at a very fine physical and emotional and intellectual and temporal level. If you develop this webwork while in a psychological space where all three 'brains' (body, emotions, intellect) are processing the self and the other at the same time--you start to experience a group spirit.

And that group spirit is an aspect of an even larger human spirit.
And that human spirit is an aspect of an even larger absolute cosmic spirit.

as individuals, we are zoomed in
as a group, we have the capacity to zoom out into the larger scales of Being.


A Hierarchy of Laws
As a tangent (sorry), Gurdjieff posits that all the different levels of magnification of the universe (from the absolute down to the microscopic) have their own laws, and these laws are imposed on the smaller forms of the universe. The more we zoom in, the more laws are in play.

I'm at work, following the rules and regulations of everyday life, but I'm also subject to the laws of the earth itself--weather, tectonics, etc.

There are collective human laws, like the ecosystem of organizations - the life cycle of religions, corporations, etc. (the Art of Memetics talks about this at length)

Zoom out further, there are laws of the solar system - solar flares, the orbits of planets, that sort of thing - we are subject to all of these, though their influence is more indirect

Zoom into the microcosmos, into me, treat the self as a cosmos... there are laws inside of it, like the laws of individual psychology. Zoom in, we're talking about biochemistry, neurology, etc.

Zoom in further, we're talking about the laws governing molecules, atoms, and even smaller things....


Gurdjieff says that there is a way to escape (maybe only briefly) from some of these laws -- I am getting ahead of myself, but I think that as you start to experience the higher levels of the spirit, as your growing experience of consciousness breaks down the distinction between the ego and the self---you can find yourself in a place where the melioration principle and the immediate external circumstances are no longer dictating your behavior. You're not the little you sitting in your chair reading this. You're the human. You're the cosmic self. It's not about what's for dinner. It's about how we're all being nourished.

William James writes about the varieties of mystical experience - in his broad work on spirituality, he identifies this 'unity' experience as the essential feature of all mystical experiences. When you read about the devout christian ecstatic experience and the apogee of zen-meditation, there is something shared - the micro-ego perceives the macro-ego and is shattered by awe.




QuoteI guess the question is, how has tribal warfare ceased, and tribal peace taken over in the past?

Gurdjieff is a little pessimistic here -- he thinks that warfare and destruction are part of a natural cycle. War just happens. He thinks it has to do with this build-up of collective energy which demands to be released. He describes it - I think metaphorically - almost like a tidal force. There are forces acting through our collective psychology. He describes them as 'planetary forces', though I'm not sure I like that, I think it's more of a 'cultural alchemy'... culture as a 'chemistry lab' where different chemicals meet and react to each other, some of it is going to be destructive.

So Gurdjieff sees war as a natural and unconscious process. If people were conscious, they could do something else - but we can't. We get threatened, we rally, we organize to hit back. It happens automatically, it's determined by a set of laws not unlike an ecosystem.




Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on August 15, 2017, 03:42:35 PM
Quote from: Vanadium Gryllz on August 01, 2017, 06:22:26 PM
On the Melioration Principle and being able to 'escape' it: I get that a lot of decisions aren't necessarily made 'consciously' and maybe through conscious labour etc. one can learn to make better/more informed decisions but ultimately your actions are always going to be dictated by external circumstances right? I can't even comprehend what internal freedom means in this context. Maybe this is my limitation. Maybe the limitation of literary communication.

Re: tribal warfare, I don't think it has ever ceased. Just the tribes we identify with have changed. I don't know if it can cease.

The Black Iron Prison is a discordian concept which describes the little cell we build for ourselves. The walls and bars of this cell are made of our tastes and preferences, our desire to approach things we like and avoid things we don't like. By respecting these walls, we find ourselves boxed in and limited by our own comforts and fears.

There is a Discordian Pilgrimage called the Jailbreak. In order to escape your cell, you have to stand up to the voice in your head which keeps you anchored oYn your tastes and preferences. You have to explore the unknown. You have to kill your idols. You have to taste new experiences, even uncomfortable ones. You have to sympathize with your enemy. You have to stop letting the small ego call all the shots.

And the jailbreak can only be temporary. We can escape from our cell, but we quickly find ourselves in a new cell. We can never attain absolute freedom (and you probably wouldn't want that anyway), but we can experience periods of it. This is very similar to Gurdjieff's thinking about consciousness - consciousness of the self - what he calls self remembering - allows us to recognize the petty little laws we've made for ourselves and make decisions about them. We can't stay in that space forever, we will always get distracted and let ourselves fall back into the micro-world of tastes and human drama.



If you want a quick tip on Self Remembering---

the trick is not just to observe the thoughts and experiences you're having, the internal world
but also to observe the self which is having those thoughts and experiences, the box which contains those boxes.

For example, if I try to self remember right now---first, I try to become aware of what's going on with my three brains - my body, my emotions, my intellect... I direct my awareness through those centers, acknowledging that I'm a little bit hungry, my wrist hurts a little. I'm and a little bit frustrated trying to express myself verbally, and also intellectually engaged with doing so.

And then I zoom out and try to see myself objectively. It's not "me". There's this guy who uses the handle Cramulus, he's sitting at his computer typing. He's at work, killing time while waiting for some e-mail to arrive. When the e-mail arrives he's going to forget what he's typing and focus on that for a few minutes, and then probably wander back here. He works for a publishing company for some reason. All his clothes are dirty and he needs to do laundry, but he's putting that off right now. He's trying to explain himself to some strangers on the Internet, and explain what's so fascinating about the Gurdjieff work, but not come off as preachy or shitty. Et cetera.

As I think about myself in this way, I keep getting reminded of things that I wasn't aware of when I was "inside" one of my three brains (the gurdjieff word for this is 'identification'). This experience doesn't feel like a discovery, but a remembering of stuff I always knew but had temporarily forgotten because I am always identified with the foreground.

This remembering, this impression of the self, is a kind of food. It feeds an internal process. It's fuel that propels some processes which are otherwise stalled. As we make that self-remembering broader and larger, the food becomes more rich and nourishing.


To put it in more simple terms - you stand before a scary cave. Your body trembles, you are filled with fear, your mind invents reasons not to step into the darkness. But if you take a moment and acknowledge your fear and resistance, you gain a sort of power over it. You can choose to make the scary step. While you're identified with your fear, it's all you have, you cannot move forward. If you self-remember, you can gain a perspective where you tell yourself "I'm afraid but I'm going to do it anyway."

That's how the self remembering can beat the melioration principle and escape the cell of tastes and preferences.


The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek
               - Joseph Campbell

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on August 15, 2017, 04:33:25 PM
Man there's so much to unpack here and definitely a lot of things you refer to that I don't quite have the right handle on to conceptualize properly. I think I grok the BIP part of things and mostly get jailbreaking but then self-remembering starts to give me that feeling of trying to think about something slippery.

I do want to thank you though Cramulus for all the effort you are putting into exploring and translating these ideas. I'm gonna give this and a few related threads another read-or-two and see if I can come back with something a bit more tangible.

Sometimes reading the stuff you write gives me one of those flashes of understanding eg:
Quote from: Cramulus on August 15, 2017, 03:22:04 PM

When I read your post, I am trying to hear it in your voice, to resonate with the place you're coming from. I'm trying to get a little of your essence into mine. This empathy helps both of us - it helps me understand you, and through it, it gives me another channel to understand myself and how I'm coming off. Consciousness can be increased through group work. (and conversely - a bad group can decrease it - like a predatory cult or religion)



that I try and grasp onto but more often than not the profundity becomes lost again with time and loss of context - maybe a parallel to escaping one cell to find oneself in another?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on August 15, 2017, 06:00:10 PM
Quote from: PoFP on August 01, 2017, 07:32:59 PMSome of Gurdjieff's work seems to me to be an influence on Crowley, or perhaps they were both influenced by the same person(s)/thing. It reminds me of Crowley's description of one's True Will, in that it seems to be entirely intrinsic, and unaffected by the environment.

There are probably some ancient sources they both read.

There's an essay about the single meeting between Gurdjieff and Crowley: Why Remarkable Men Rarely Meet (http://www.ptmistlberger.com/why-remarkable-men-rarely-meet.php).

From what I can tell, Crowley had a lot of respect and admiration for Gurdjieff -- Crowley even sought out G. to be healed of his heroin addiction.

Gurdjieff, however, did not like Crowley:

QuoteCrowley arrived for a whole weekend and spent the time like any other visitor to the Prieure; being shown the grounds and the activities in progress, listening to Gurdjieff's music and his oracular conversation. Apart from some circumspection, Gurdjieff treated him like any other guest until the evening of his departure. After dinner on Sunday night, Gurdjieff led the way out of the dining room with Crowley, followed by the body of the pupils who had also been at the meal. Crowley made his way toward the door and turned to take his leave of Gurdjieff, who by this time was some way up the stairs to the second floor.

"Mister, you go?" Gurdjieff inquired. Crowley assented. "You have been guest?"—a fact which the visitor could hardly deny. "Now you go, you are no longer guest?" Crowley—no doubt wondering whether his host had lost his grip on reality and was wandering in a semantic wilderness – humored his mood by indicating that he was on his way back to Paris. But Gurdjieff, having made the point that he was not violating the canons of hospitality, changed on the instant into the embodiment of righteous anger.

"You filthy," he stormed, "you dirty inside! Never again you set foot in my house!" From his vantage point on the stairs, he worked himself into a rage which quite transfixed his watching pupils. Crowley was stigmatized as the sewer of creation was taken apart and trodden into the mire. Finally, he was banished in the style of East Lynne by a Gurdjieff in fine histrionic form. White faced and shaking, the Great Beast crept back to Paris with his tail between his legs. (9)   



this was recorded by one of Gurdjieff's disciples, so it should be taken with a grain of salt


As I said upthread, I evaluate these 1920s-guru figures along two axis - (1) how much genuine wisdom were they capable of transmitting, and (2) how much of a profit-oriented ego-driven charlatan were they?

I rank Gurdjieff high on 1 and medium on 2
I rank Crowley medium on 1 and high on 2

and I think Gurdjieff could smell that - he could plainly see the parts of Crowley's shtick that were just an act.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Bu🤠ns on August 15, 2017, 10:28:06 PM
Or as alan watts said: "When two zen masters meet each other on the road they need to introduction. When thieves meet they recognize each other instantly." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHR2KNZg8q0#t=19m30s)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: POFP on August 16, 2017, 04:28:32 PM
On Universal Zoom Level, Empathy, and Group Work:

This makes me think of the fact that as individuals, we tend to specialize in certain aspects of our work, study, and thought. And it's when we work as a team that we build on the highest layers of abstraction in our communication, which allows us to conceptualize the ways in which our specializations tie into the overall ability of our society, and our collective tendencies towards specific big-picture decisions.

I think this points to a very important concept: That specialization in one field is not necessary to understand a concept or principle in that field. With the power of empathy, humans have the innate ability to shift perspectives from one person to another. As long as the communication is solid and collectively understood, one need only request a specialist's perspective in order to gain insight into their mindset. Almost as if you are borrowing a person's tendency toward certain types of pattern recognition, you are capable of looking at a problem as if you are the specialist.

I believe it's this ability to alternate between frames of reference that defines the difference between the worst leaders in history and the best leaders in history. A leader must retain the ability to think like one of the parts of the system in order to properly address issues within that area of the system. I believe the reason why the greatest leaders throughout history are often very spiritual is due to the fact that they understand that you have to connect with people in order to borrow their frame of reference, and spirituality is based on the idea of some untouchable bond between humans, some bridge for often unspoken, almost mystical communication. The transfer of one perspective to another either through the Sacred Movements or some similar activity, or through embedded perspective clues in every day communication. It seems that mastery of these types of signal transmission and reception is what defines the Holy Man™.

On Warfare:

I suspect that your interpretation is much more accurate than warfare and destruction simply being reduced to a cycle. While I think there is a little truth in the cyclical nature perspective of warfare, I think it can only extend as far as its fuel. Every cycle in the universe requires a food source, or something to fuel the cycle in at least one of the stages, even if the rest of the stages are self-modulating (Or simply fueled by the product of the previous stage). I guess I kind of see why Buddhism is such a popular lens to use when observing warfare, and other cyclical concepts. I've heard Buddha described as the end of all cycles. The universe worked in cycles and repeated itself indefinitely until Buddha. After Buddha (Or in this case, the elimination of cyclical catalysts/fuel), the universe and its systems become linear. I suspect that warfare may end similarly. The problem is, we haven't yet isolated the catalyst, or fuel.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on August 25, 2017, 02:21:18 PM
Reading and Exchange

Last night I went to a "Reading and Exchange" - it was a room of ~25 people. Two of them were from the group I had attended earlier this summer. The group leaders were three people I'd never met before.

The readings were about "coming into being". One of them discussed the relationship between the "physical body" and the "psychic body". The physical body basically only knows a few things - hunger, fatigue, sex...  That's all it can 'think' of, it has nothing else. When our psychic bodies desire something, we have to harness our force of will to find it. The physical body steals some of this energy. We get distracted--our bodies want to know what's for dinner. Part of the Work is to tame the body, make it obey the mind.

That's why Gurdjieff recommends picking a habit or behavioral pattern - something small - and working against it. Deny yourself your daily fudge sundae. Observe how the body responds, how it pulls harder on your energy, how it becomes more distracting. How easy it is to fall back into this habit!

The body can even outsource its desires to your intellectual and emotional centers. There is an emotional need to smoke that cigarette. Your mind will rationalize why it's okay this one time.

Also notice---these impulses and decisions aren't actually choices you're making, they're just happening. Your intellect and emotions have the same kind of autopilot as the body.

As you struggle against physical habits and temptations, you will slowly develop (like a weak muscle growing in strength through exercise) a watcher, a third force which observes the desire, and the will, and is capable of moderating both.

This "third force" is conscious energy. It only appears for a flicker of a moment. It's like a gift.

I'm reminded of having arguments with a loved one, and then going for a long walk to cool down... I'm repeating my arguments in my head, I'm fantasizing about how I'll come back and win the fight, I'm dwelling on how wrong the other person is. Eventually, this antagonistic energy gets exhausted. And in this moment of quiet, maybe I'm able to recognize how I was wrong, and how we can compromise. That's the third force.

Part of the Work is teaching yourself to be prepared for this moment. It's hard to force it, it seems like it just falls into your lap when you're ready. And if you're not sensitive to it, you can miss it entirely. You have to be ready to receive that gift.

On fighting against habits -- they emphasized that it's important to actually do these exercises - it's not enough to read about it. Reading a million books about this stuff doesn't make you an expert. Talking about it a lot doesn't make you any more conscious. Only continuous effort, over a long period of time, gives you the possibility of developing this conscious body.



Reconciling the Incongruities-- or not

Someone at the group asked -- "Here, you talked about a physical body and a psychic body -- how do we reconcile that with the other models of the self you've given us? three centers, five centers, seven centers... today you only talk about two parts. How does it fit together?"  -- that's one of the things I keep noticing about the Gurdjieff work. It's full of contradictions. Sometimes he talks about three centers, sometimes five. Sometimes he talks about sexual energy as a part of the body, sometimes he puts it somewhere else...

One of the group leaders responded -- "I wonder what part of you wants to make it all fit together?"

Throughout In Search of the Miraculous, Gurdjieff's disciple Ouspensky tries to pin down the "science" of awakening, he wants to reconcile the contradictions and draw up a complete model. What I learned last night at the meeting was that this isn't important. It might be that the incongruity is actually built into it to keep it from becoming a "known quantity". Once you "understand" it, you don't give it any more thought. ("a conclusion is just where you stopped thinking")

But it's the seeking part of us, the part that wants to understand things, that needs to be recognized and nourished. That part of us can help us create the "third force" in ourselves. The incongruity keeps the mind working. (I'm reminded of the Crowley essay, "The Soldier and the Hunchback")




I had a really tough day yesterday, my mind was a firestorm. But I calmed down and made myself sensitive to the third force. And eventually, it came, and showed me the path between scylla and charibdis.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on August 25, 2017, 02:37:15 PM
In zen-buddhist texts, sometimes you hear these descriptions of the masters, how they have this way about them... you can recognize that they really know something. You can see it in their movements, in everything they say. (As an aside, I think Bob Ross is like that. In his motions and gestures, his words and tone of voice, you can see his self-mastery)

I want to mention my impression of one of the group leaders, an older woman. She had this presence .. it's hard to describe.  She heard everyone's questions, could sense the root curiosity or confusion that informed that question.. and was able to speak to what you were really asking. When she talked, she really connected with you. Her voice was clear. Her ideas were focused. When she moved her hands, it emphasized exactly the right things. She grabbed your attention and held it tight. I connected with everything she said.


This woman -- there was just something about the way she talked, the way she moved her hands... I could tell she was conscious, she was on, she was here right now. Completely focused, completely awake. Every time she spoke, she spoke perfectly.


They are careful, in these groups, not to present the Work as a path to a bunch of super powers and enlightenment. They emphasize that doing all these exercises won't make you permanently awake, but it might give you the possibility of awakening. It's about climbing the tree, not eating the fruit.

But seeing this woman talk -- it showed me that for some people, there is a remarkable payoff. When somebody has a higher level of "being" like that, you can feel it. It made me realize how distracted I am all the time, how sometimes when you're talking to me, my mind is elsewhere. I'm running a million programs at once. They're all taking a little bit of energy, and so in any given moment, each of my processes is in a low energy state. It's hard to describe.. but just interacting with this woman made me understand Being a little bit better. She's here and now. I could be too.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on December 08, 2017, 02:56:36 PM
Hi everybody! I'm still doing the Gurdjieff work. I wanted to share a few of my recent thoughts.


Katha Upanishads Part 2, verse XII

"The wise, who by means of the highest meditation on the Self knows the Ancient One, difficult to perceive, seated in the innermost recess, hidden in the cave of the heart, dwelling in the depth of inner being, (he who knows that One) as God, is liberated from the fetters of joy and sorrow."

I only recently learned what Atman meant. The immortal self. Not the "soul", but your essence. That is, the part of the self that existed before you had any personality, the part of you which is not acquired from the outside world.

Gurdjieff cuts the self like this - personality is separate from essence. Personality is acquired. It's determined by context and accidents of upbringing. It's your reactions to the outside world, your tastes, your experiences, all this stuff is "given to you". The only thing thats innately yours is Essence.

When you are in a new situation, you don't know anybody, you don't have any masks to wear -- you are closer to your essence. When you experience a tragedy and start asking yourself the hard questions, the real questions about your life -- you are closer to your essence. The essence is "what your face looked like before your parents were born" (1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_face))

Essence is old. It's a torch passed to you as an infant. It's been passed from human to human since before we were humans. It's the life force, the part of you that wants to LIVE, and FLOURISH, and OVERCOME. Where most parts of you are automatic, mechanical, responsive, essence is proactive, alive, it has agency.

Part of the Work is about becoming sensitive to this essence, about learning to recognize where personality ends and essence begins, and moving deeper into it.





And as an aside, I think many ancient religions (Hindu, Persian, and a variety of Eastern ones) were pointed at this discovery of essence. Modern religions, having iterated on that idea over and over again, have kinda lost touch with it. In some ways, modern religion is a decayed form of ancient religion. Through the continual interplay of politics and power, that part of religion has been obscured and hidden.

For example - I keep reading about Christianity in like 100 AD, and it is wildly different from modern Christianity. In the old thinking, the world is the macrocosm and the self is the microcosm, but they are connected. Jesus as the personal savior represents something happening inside of you. It's not an external figure you pray to. Its your own internal reconciliation between Thesis and Antithesis.


Here's a line that stuck with me from a Gurdjieff meeting on Tuesday---

the Work is not about self-improvement (in the ordinary sense),
it's about becoming a better vehicle
for consciousness
for Atman




the Discordians in the crowd will notice that Atman and Primal Chaos are notes in the same chord.



Two Becoming Three

There is a spiritual progression. 2,3,4,5,6

Most of the people in the world are not on the progression, they're living entirely in the material world, locked in orbit around ego and pleasure.

Critical thought takes you to 2. Two represents duality, inner conflict. One part of you asserts something, the other denies it. It's the left brain + the right brain. Thesis, antithesis.

"Two becomes three" -- this is the introduction of the third force ---- Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis.

In your day to day life, you have flashes of consciousness, brief moments where you can see yourself and make choices. Usually, we're just on autopilot, but sometimes we get to make a decision. Often, we let the autopilot make the choice, but if you're paying attention, you can hold onto that moment.

That's the third force, that's two becoming three


what I call --- Personal Christmas

becuase Christmas represents the Two (God + Holy Spirit) becoming Three (christ arriving in the world)

Three is the reconciling force,
the part of you that can recognize that you've been a dumbass
the part of you that overcome your automatic, mechanical, reactive mind
the part of you that can change consciously, intentionally

it's your only hope, your holy guardian angel, your personal savior



Religion is a set of symbols, which if understood properly, fuels consciousness and reconciliation. See, when you think about God this way, the question of whether or not God exists doesn't make any fuckin sense at all.

That's what I mean when I say that modern religion is a decayed form of something more real. If you think of God as some beardy jew in the clouds, some alpha male who is watching you like Santa Claus... you are not actually in a setting where you can receive this understanding. Modern religion distracts from spirituality, it's a sleight of hand that keeps most people anchored in the material world of status and power.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on December 08, 2017, 03:10:10 PM
In my Gurdjieff group, every week, they reccommend we try something different - an exercise to try to be more conscious, to remember to be in the right place.

A lot of these are "split attention" exercises - you try to remain fully present in the world, while also being conscious of what's happening inside of you.


And like, sometimes these exercises work, sometimes they don't

but I guess the point isn't so much to discover the concrete techniques that increase your consciousness --- the point is to be the person that is trying something

the technique and its efficacy are almost arbitrary



there's an internal struggle  ---
that's what Two means, the self is divided into two forces in opposition

to move into Three, you have to remember your third mind, the watcher who is outside of it


that's what our Split Attention Exercises are about, too --- being present in the world, without losing focus on what's going on inside of you

and then having a third mind which is not just being determined by one or the other. One that watches the others and makes good decisions about them.


the watcher who observes both the internal and external but is not being determined and controlled by either

Not the lizard brain, not the monkey brain, but the human brain



The flash of consciousness is 2 becoming 3, it's Personal Christmas.

because Christmas is the day the third divine force enters the cosmos, jesus descends into the material
the trinity is born


The trinity idea is also tied into what Gurdjieff calls the three universal forces
-holy affirming
-holy denying
-holy reconciling

The Hegelian Dialectic
Thesis / Antithesis / Synthesis


Synthesis, the ability to reconcile inner conflict - that's where the magic happens inside of us


And from what I can tell, it never comes fluidly, you always have to prepare yourself to receive it. That's why we try different techniques every week, it's so we are actively trying to be in a space where we can receive that consciousness and embody it. You can't figure it out and then rest on your laurels. If there was a technique which really worked, you would do it all the time, and eventually it would start to become mechanical and lose its power. So you have to keep trying different things -- it's not about what things, it's about trying.


anyway, that's my meditation for the day


I'll say this - the Gurdjieff Work is hard. It's not full of a-hah moments and epiphany -- sometimes it is -- but most of the time, it's boring and frustrating. Observing yourself. Trying to stay conscious but failing. Trying to remember yourself and failing. Becoming aware of how helpless and mechanical you are. Recognizing that 99% of your mental activity and behavior is basically autopilot. It's depressing sometimes. This is not a feel-good path, and usually you don't feel like you're making any progress at all.

But now, a year after starting to read about Gurdjieff...  I can usually distinguish between awake and asleep (in myself).

and that puts me far ahead of where I was at this time last year.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on December 10, 2017, 12:33:01 PM
Has the number of people attending each week dwindled? It sounds like hard work.

Could you give some examples of the exercises?

Thanks for the detailed updates, very interesting stuff.  :)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on December 10, 2017, 02:50:52 PM
We now have a core group of 5 students.

Some of the exercises.... each of these was done for 1-2 weeks


Some of these have to do with self awareness, being conscious of what's going on in your three processing centers and re-connecting them

Some of them have to do with giving you "shocks", little moments during the day that unexpectedly jar you awake

Some of them have to do with split attention -- running an internal process, while running an external process... maybe you remember to observe the third camera too.


My favorite one was a variation on the 100 steps exercise. The idea is that you take 100 steps, maintaining your internal focus, maintaining your external focus... So with one foot, you're counting to 50 -- 1, 2, 3, 4... but with the other foot, you're counting down - 99, 98, 97, 96....   so as you're walking, you're counting 1, 99, 2, 98, 3, 97, 4, 96...

And while doing this, maintain awareness of your foot hitting the ground!


This was challenging - actually learned a lot from this. For one, I couldn't do it while stoned. Secondly, it took a lot of attention to do it the first time. I had to focus really hard on the numbers to get them right, and the physical world sorta vanished while that was happening. But I found counting upwards could be done more or less automatically, and then counting down took some attention. And the more practice I got, I could feel the automatic mind taking over the counting down process. Eventually, I could do all 100 steps while maintaining presence in the physical world.

and then you turn up the difficulty! Count by 2s!  :p



Kinda like Robert Anton Wilson's Quarter Experiment in Prometheus Rising, it's one thing to read about these, it's another thing to actually do it. You may have read the words, but you don't know anything until you've done it yourself. Everything has to be verified personally, you can't just take other people's words about consciousness as real.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on December 12, 2017, 08:58:16 PM
I adore reading about your progress through this system, Cram.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on December 13, 2017, 02:38:07 PM
(https://imgur.com/VaQ0nC3.jpg)

Last night, instead of meeting, we were invited to a special presentation at the Gurdjieff Foundation.

This was really exciting for me. Way back when I started thinking about this stuff, I was intrigued by the mystery... they were holding cards they weren't showing us. Now, 8 months later, the five of us are invited to the actual Foundation building for the first time. We didn't know what to expect. We just knew we'd be listening to some music and readings.

The Gurdjieff Foundation building used to be a firehouse. Before we went in, our host asked us to keep silent while we were inside. It's fancy in there! We hung up our coats in the basement and then sat down in a temple-looking room.

The place I was in had a certain feeling to it - an aura of contemplation and peace. Nobody really spoke while I was there. I'd say there were about 100 people in the audience. Our group of five -- most of us are in our mid 30s -- were definitely the youngest people there by some 15 years.

The ceiling of the temple was tiered, like a ziggurat. I recognized the shape from a diagram in a Gurdjieff book - the idea is a temple with four court yards, each inside the other. Each court yard is gated, you are not allowed access to it until you have been properly intiated into the mysteries. The innermost courtyard is sacred ground, only for those who have made it to the center of the work.

During this presentation, the audience was seated in the "outer courtyard" area, and the performance was in the inner courtyard area.

Here's a picture I managed to sneak after the performance:

(https://imgur.com/tfEsEQb.jpg)


The presentation lasted about an hour. It consisted of three readings, interspersed with about 7 songs, played by different people on a grand piano.

The connecting theme was the "sayyids". Sayyid is an arabic word meaning "Master". Muslims that can trace their bloodline back to the Prophet are considered holy people -- sayyids. Gurdjieff and the composer Thomas de Hartmann joined forces to create a body of amazing music. Several of their pieces were called the Sayyids.  (also spelled "Seïd")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4_QKJmKm0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMKc6PgARXc


There is a character to this music... I almost felt like I understood what it was saying before it was "explained". A speaker did touch on their nature - the Sayyids have two 'voices' - the lower voice consists of two notes alternating over and over, like a vibration that runs through the whole piece, a lawful order of everyday life. The second voice is played independently, it floats through the higher octaves.

The readings were from Gurdjieff's book "Meetings with Remarkable Men". It described a time when he wanted to visit Kafiristan, a place inhabited by nomadic tribes. These people do not welcome outsiders, and the whole country was considered inacessible by Europeans.

Gurdjieff and his friend Doctor Skridlov decided to explore Kafiristan while disguised as holy men. Here's one of the readings:

QuoteAt supper that evening, after the religious ceremony of the
christening, there sat next to me an old Turkoman nomad, a friend of the
host and owner of a large flock of caracul sheep. In the course of my
conversation with him about the life of nomads in general and about the
different tribes of Central Asia, we began talking about the various
independent tribes inhabiting the region of Kafiristan.

Continuing our conversation after supper, during which of course
Russian vodka had not been economized, the old man, by the way and
as though to himself, expressed an opinion which Professor Skridlov
and I took as advice; and in accordance with it we drew up a definite
plan for carrying out our intention.

He said that, notwithstanding the almost organic distaste of the
inhabitants of this region for having anything to do with people not
belonging to their own tribes, there was nevertheless developed in
nearly every one of them, to whatever tribe he belonged, a certain
something which naturally arouses in him a feeling of
respect and even love towards all persons, whatever their race, who
devote themselves to the service of God.

After this thought had been expressed by a nomad whom we had met
by chance, and who had spoken perhaps thanks only to Russian vodka,
all our deliberations, that night and the next day, were based on the idea
that we might get into this country, not as ordinary mortals, but by
assuming the appearance of persons who are shown special respect there
and who have the possibility of going freely everywhere without
arousing suspicion.

....we categorically decided that Professor Skridlov should
disguise himself as a venerable Persian dervish and I should pass for a
direct descendant of Mohammed, that is to say, for a Seïd.

QuoteTo prepare ourselves for this masquerade, a long time was necessary,
as well as a quiet, isolated spot. And that is why we decided to settle
down in the ruins of Old Merv, which met these requirements and
where, moreover, we could at times, for a rest, make some excavations.
Our preparation consisted in learning a great many sacred Persian
chants and instructive sayings of former times, as well as in letting our
hair grow long enough for us to look like the people for whom we
intended to pass; make-up in this case was quite out of the question.
After we had lived in this way for about a year and were finally
satisfied both with our appearance and our knowledge of religious
verses and psalms, one day, very early in the morning, we left the ruins
of Old Merv, which had come to be like home for us, and going on foot
as far as the station of Baïram Ali on the Central Asiatic Railway, we
took a train to Chardzhou, and from there set off by boat up the river
Amu Darya.


some art on the walls:
(https://imgur.com/n3L330f.jpg)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on December 13, 2017, 03:51:40 PM
Cram this thread and your journey are amazing and, other than that I consider many folks here friends, are a primary reason I come back to PD when I have Internet access. Thanks for doing it! I suspect that your journey is just beginning and that you will discover wonders beyond what you ever thought possible.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Bu🤠ns on December 13, 2017, 10:29:40 PM
Quotethe Sayyids have two 'voices' - the lower voice consists of two notes alternating over and over, like a vibration that runs through the whole piece, a lawful order of everyday life. The second voice is played independently, it floats through the higher octaves.

Like Personal Christmas music!

Thanks for keeping up with this, Cram, it's very engaging.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on December 14, 2017, 12:39:35 AM
I have respect and admiration in many ways towards Gurdjieff and love reading his books (such as Beelzebub's tales and Meetings with remarkable men) and his music too!

The essence of his teachings I agree with very much but then I also believe the opposite too (aka Terrence McKenna) though they pose a duality with how we interact with the world around us and how we dictate our own mind, in a sense.

I love mysticism and the occult and there are a lot of things to be taken from it but as RAW famously said "don't believe anybody else's B.S."
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on December 14, 2017, 02:27:31 PM
Interesting, how would you say Terrence McKenna is the opposite?


It's funny - I was into the occult, then I wasn't, then I'm interested in it again - but not for the Madghckique or anything like that.
I've come to the understanding that religions and occult practices are all just a bunch of symbols with relationships to each other. And that a lot of those symbols and their relationships are isomorphic to stuff going on inside of us. And through that lens, I am discovering a new appreciation for Mr. Jesus and his bible friends, etc.

And my definition of God has shifted over the last two years or so. When people say God, I think of the entire material universe at once, the whole fuckin thing, raw and uncut by judgments and perceptions. And through that lens, the question of whether or not God exists doesn't make any sense. It also doesn't make sense to pray, in the style of petitioning for things. But petition is only one form of prayer. I think that meditation is another. If you can become conscious, the universe is slightly more conscious, and it wants that. It's part of why we're here, why consciousness exists.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on December 14, 2017, 05:08:37 PM
There's also praise and or gratitude prayer. I find it good medicine to be thankful for the little things even as The Struggle continues unabated. It's a form of mindfulness that feeds the spirit and is the whole point of prayer before a meal IMO.

Being more conscious of the wonders in the universe naturally leads to this kind of feedback cycle that makes endurance and even prosperity more accessible in one's life.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on December 14, 2017, 10:41:00 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on December 14, 2017, 02:27:31 PM
Interesting, how would you say Terrence McKenna is the opposite?

In the way that they approach the world and enlightenment.

Gurdjieff being someone that believes in full participation with the world around us, combined with certain Zen views of not resting value or morality on earthly things.

McKenna being someone that believes we can attain a great knowledge from participating in consumption of psychedelic drugs (which are still stigmatized) to advance our understanding about both ourselves and the world around us. There is some Timothy Leary in there too.
He does however share certain Zen sentiments with Gurdjieff.


I think they are both right answers but there are still other answers still.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on December 14, 2017, 10:45:30 PM
I share a Blavatsky/Crowley perception of religion, that if there's truth in any of them then it can be found in parts of all of them but that not any single belief system can be entirely trusted, so then that connects back to RAW, Leary and reality tunnels  :wink:
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on December 15, 2017, 02:23:48 PM
Gurdjieff doesn't lean away from using certain substances to explore consciousness. He personally drank a lot of alchohol and coffee. He mentioned Hemp, Hops, Poppy, and Coffee as plants that can teach us things. He never used the word psychedelic, but suggested that these substance-related experiences can act kind of like a meditation shortcut. If drugs help you awaken, then you'll feel what being awake is like. And it'll be easier for you to find it again.

From the point of view of the Gurdjieff work, a sin is anything that makes you less conscious. Use of drugs in a way that numbs you, turns you off to the world, could be "sinful". It suggests that if you use drugs, you should approach them as a way of waking yourself up, rather than keeping yourself asleep and comfortable. And if they do help you wake up, think of it as a roadmap - you should explore that state and figure out how to get there without their aid.

Quote from: Accelerated Evolution on December 14, 2017, 10:45:30 PM
I share a Blavatsky/Crowley perception of religion, that if there's truth in any of them then it can be found in parts of all of them but that not any single belief system can be entirely trusted, so then that connects back to RAW, Leary and reality tunnels  :wink:

It's interesting, Gurdjieff uses the word "objective" in a specialized way. Objective knowledge, in his system, is knowledge of the nature of consciousness and its role in the universe. The universe is a big interconnected organism, and our individual consciousness is part of its efforts to wake up. Gurdjieff thinks this truth is one of the real roots of ancient religion. And the real goal of most religions is to use symbols to plant this understanding in our being. Each religion is just one "hand on the elephant", of this truth. No one religion will capture the truth perfectly, the objective truth is somewhere in between them.


The Universe that can be described is not the real Universe;
The name that can be given is not an accurate name.
Nameless, it is the source of Order and Disorder;
Named... Well, we pretty much covered that, yeah?




And as a tangent

While the truth is distributed, it's not evenly distributed.
In the Gurdjieff system, religions or spiritual systems which don't originate from this "esoteric center", that is, the fundamental unity of the universe, are false.

They can be 'useful' in ordinary ways, but they are disconnected from what's really going on and are likely little more than energy traps. A "real religion" can impart the understanding that your essence is the same stuff as God, the same stuff as everything -- Thou Art That (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi).
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on December 16, 2017, 02:15:37 AM
I agree on all of that. Very good post Cramulus!



p.s. with the the Gurdjieff/McKenna thing, I mean more specifically the distinction and importance they put on the other ends of both the subconcious (drugs, dreams) and physical reality.
Of course, they both where enlightened thinkers and were definitely not reliant on the material world  :)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on December 30, 2017, 12:04:53 AM
I read your thread Mr. C.  Welcome to kindergarten.  I love G's harmonium improvisations & some of the private Paris talks.  Jean deSalzmann has a post-humoursly published book called "the Reality of Being" that I like.  Some of what Gurdjieff wrote is utter bullshit. Sometimes I think it was intentional.  Maybe he wanted you to make effort and find out for yourself what is shit and what is not.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: minuspace on December 31, 2017, 01:04:16 AM
Posting breadcrumbs for later retrieval. Got stuck on third sentence of OP:
"There were a lot of these weird guru figures that emerged during this period. Crowley, *Gardner*, Meher Baba, Mme Blavatski, G.I.Gurdjieff.
Gardner rolled right out of his grave when he heard the company you had him keep.
--LuX, defender of reputations.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 02, 2018, 02:28:09 PM
Quote from: Finn on December 30, 2017, 12:04:53 AM
I read your thread Mr. C.  Welcome to kindergarten.  I love G's harmonium improvisations & some of the private Paris talks.  Jean deSalzmann has a post-humoursly published book called "the Reality of Being" that I like.  Some of what Gurdjieff wrote is utter bullshit. Sometimes I think it was intentional.  Maybe he wanted you to make effort and find out for yourself what is shit and what is not.

I agree that a bunch of his writings were BS - but I have a hard time figuring out how much of it is a put-on (like how Robert Anton Wilson leaves a few traps in his books for readers that drink too deeply and uncritically of his kool-aid), and how much of it is stretched allegory.

Like, during his life, Gurdjieff got a lot of shit for his claim that when we die, our souls travel up through some kind of astral umbilical cord and arrive at the moon, where they serve as food. It's a pretty bizarre claim.

But it's likely he wasn't talking literally--the moon is a very hard-to-untangle symbol in his work.

At first, when I was reading through this stuff, I was doing this mental sorting exercise--putting some of his claims in "yes, that checks out" and others in "nah that sounds like turn of the century fuzz". On my second reading of In Search of the Miraculous a lot of the ideas in the second pile had to be moved to the first pile, and some to a third -- "I actually don't understand what he's talking about yet".

Like, there's a whole chapter about the alchemical processes going on inside of us, how consciousness requires a certain kind of food, and this food is created by processing other types of food, such as impressions. And I don't think any of it is true in a material sense. First time I read it, I tossed it. He claims that self-remembering builds up a definite kind of energy inside of you, and this energy fuels certain processes that are otherwise frozen. He explains it all in extremely material terms. And I thought - yeah, all of this could be easily disproven. But you know... talking about presence and awareness as something like a muscle that you develop... Talking about how you need new impressions to have new thoughts, how your being can be hungry, how impressions become behaviors through this quasi-metabolic process... there's some meat there, if understood abstractly.

It comes back to something I've been saying recently - that religions are maybe not best understood as a literal explanation for how the universe works... They should be approached as a network of symbols which correlate to how things in the world (the external and the internal) are arranged. By understanding that there's a relationship between the big macro universe and the personal microcosm, the next step is to embark on a quest (like the quest to find the holy grail) to find patterns which exist in both.



Am curious to hear what parts of the 4th way stuff you think are whack! I'm trying to collect criticisms of the Gurdjieff work too... of which there are many!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on January 02, 2018, 09:18:46 PM
I assume you know Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson? One huge allegory inside another allegory to get at some big aspects of real-life.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 03, 2018, 05:07:00 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 02, 2018, 02:28:09 PM
Quote from: Finn on December 30, 2017, 12:04:53 AM


Like, there's a whole chapter about the alchemical processes going on inside of us, how consciousness requires a certain kind of food, and this food is created by processing other types of food, such as impressions. And I don't think any of it is true in a material sense. First time I read it, I tossed it. He claims that self-remembering builds up a definite kind of energy inside of you, and this energy fuels certain processes that are otherwise frozen. He explains it all in extremely material terms. And I thought - yeah, all of this could be easily disproven. But you know... talking about presence and awareness as something like a muscle that you develop... Talking about how you need new impressions to have new thoughts, how your being can be hungry, how impressions become behaviors through this quasi-metabolic process... there's some meat there, if understood abstractly.

It comes back to something I've been saying recently - that religions are maybe not best understood as a literal explanation for how the universe works... They should be approached as a network of symbols which correlate to how things in the world (the external and the internal) are arranged. By understanding that there's a relationship between the big macro universe and the personal microcosm, the next step is to embark on a quest (like the quest to find the holy grail) to find patterns which exist
I too feel there is some real alchemical meat there to be digested. It's only abstract when we talk about it .  It's nitty-gritty when you feel and see it happening.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 03, 2018, 06:05:49 AM
Like you, I entered a work group through attending a public reading. It was a chapter from a short Ouspensky book.  Afterwards the speaker said that the most important idea to him was though "We have none presently, we do have the possibility  of creating a soul which can be immortal within the confines of the Solar System" I threw up in my mouth hearing that.  At that point in my still young life, my years of lucid-dreaming had turned into full-blown out-of-body experiences. And if a moron like me was directly experiencing his non-physical body, then EVERYONE had to have one. In other words, it's an innate thing for every single person. Not something that needs to be created. Nothing unique. Nothing mystical. It just is. Folks might not be consciously experiencing it, but it is there as a core part of every single human being. ( 'fore I go on. I am nobody special. I am a statistic. A strange statistic yeah, but still an idiot. Like you)  I have since found out, that at least in the S.F. Gurdjieff Foundation, that fucked-up idea that you need to "form a soul", a non-physical body, is dogma. Well cupcake, if you believe you can't consciously leave your physical body and explore non-physical reality, you will never do it consciously. Because if you don't think it's possible, you will never pay attention to it. You are already doing it every fucking night anyway. Unconsciously. You just need to remember that you are actually doing it. In the present moment that you are actually doing it. It's not that hard to become aware of. Takes some practice. And you do need to be able to pay attention. But still. C'mon! You're not a little baby anymore! Am I right? You can do it! ( I'm ranting 'cuz I'm pissed) Fuck you Gurdjieff fuck-heads for saying it's only advanced holy beings that have immortal vehicles. I'm living proof of that. If I'm an example of an advanced being, then honey we are all fucked. Granted, your soul might be at  the level of a petulant 5 year old, but you are still an immortal being that will never truly die. You might need to grow the fuck up, but fellow immortal, I salute you!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 03, 2018, 06:28:52 AM
Another Gurdjiffian notion I find to be (mostly) bullshit is the necessity of making "super efforts" to effect change. It's true, there are circumstances that arise where you do need to amp up things as high as they can go, to really force the juice along. Yet in my life what's been way more important is consistent on-going effort. The "pay attention and stay awake" game requires a deeply relaxed  yet focused attention.  Instead of using a sledge hammer to vanish a rock "Hulk go Smash!"  I favor the wind & water way. Steady relaxed focused attention. Wind & water over time will smooth down that stone  into nothing. You have to be patient and not expect immediate results. But steady relaxed effort bears fruit.  Super-efforts mostly create tension which can cramp attention. Yet there are times to amp it way up. Nothing is written in stone.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on January 03, 2018, 06:30:22 AM
In Search Of The Miraculous is a great book, gotta crack it open. It's been a while since I read that, I finished my tenth read of Beelzebub.... about two months ago 
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 03, 2018, 06:39:49 AM
Tell me something you've got from Beelzebub. If you have a mind to.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on January 03, 2018, 08:19:58 AM
Quote from: Finn on January 03, 2018, 06:39:49 AM
Tell me something you've got from Beelzebub. If you have a mind to.

Me personally?

Well, there are a lot of things but the epic size of it and density between the message, the allegory, the real life aspects (expanded on in later books) and so forth, make it a book that takes so long to make sense of but I don't claim to have or haven't.

The opening soliloquy "Arousing of thought", to me gets at the essence of the experience of life as an individual, and the daily distractions we face.

The massive scifi story backdrop is fun, which is another aspect that draws me back.

The last few hundred pages tend to really break the guise a little, which intrigues me a lot. As it becomes moreso Gurdjieff himself talking to the reader then Beelzebub.

From my perspective, the first chapter instills the essence of Gurdjieff's philosophy, the book as a whole being more of a primer into the rest of his work + The Fourth Way. But the thing that has made me come back so many times, is that it is simply a really unique experience to read and feels like a different story each time (in some sense  :wink: ) - (I would add that I have never read the entire thing back to back [god forbid] and it always takes me a while to get through it) Would it be not to wrong to say it is his most challenging book, reading-wise?  :horrormirth:

As I (think) I've said before, I'm not a Gurdjieffian but I love reading his books (and music)

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 03, 2018, 08:28:59 AM
Shit Man... You told me nothing.  For reading it ten times?  That's all y'all got?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on January 03, 2018, 08:43:17 AM
Quote from: Finn on January 03, 2018, 06:39:49 AMIf you have a mind to.

Precisely my point, I don't choose to. My mind is in other places at the moment, I'm just snooping around this thread in the meantime. Don't mind me pal  :lulz:
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 03, 2018, 09:00:55 AM
Uh...O.K. I was just hoping that after having read Beelzebub ten times you might could offer some insight into it. You know...reveal a hidden gem you uncovered. Maybe after the eleventh time you read it? Only if you're not too tired and care to share of course.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 03, 2018, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: Finn on January 03, 2018, 06:05:49 AM
Like you, I entered a work group through attending a public reading. It was a chapter from a short Ouspensky book.  Afterwards the speaker said that the most important idea to him was though "We have none presently, we do have the possibility  of creating a soul which can be immortal within the confines of the Solar System" I threw up in my mouth hearing that.  At that point in my still young life, my years of lucid-dreaming had turned into full-blown out-of-body experiences. And if a moron like me was directly experiencing his non-physical body, then EVERYONE had to have one. In other words, it's an innate thing for every single person. Not something that needs to be created. Nothing unique. Nothing mystical. It just is. Folks might not be consciously experiencing it, but it is there as a core part of every single human being. ( 'fore I go on. I am nobody special. I am a statistic. A strange statistic yeah, but still an idiot. Like you)  I have since found out, that at least in the S.F. Gurdjieff Foundation, that fucked-up idea that you need to "form a soul", a non-physical body, is dogma. Well cupcake, if you believe you can't consciously leave your physical body and explore non-physical reality, you will never do it consciously. Because if you don't think it's possible, you will never pay attention to it. You are already doing it every fucking night anyway. Unconsciously. You just need to remember that you are actually doing it. In the present moment that you are actually doing it. It's not that hard to become aware of. Takes some practice. And you do need to be able to pay attention. But still. C'mon! You're not a little baby anymore! Am I right? You can do it! ( I'm ranting 'cuz I'm pissed) Fuck you Gurdjieff fuck-heads for saying it's only advanced holy beings that have immortal vehicles. I'm living proof of that. If I'm an example of an advanced being, then honey we are all fucked. Granted, your soul might be at  the level of a petulant 5 year old, but you are still an immortal being that will never truly die. You might need to grow the fuck up, but fellow immortal, I salute you!


Thanks for the reply, a great discussion point.

My Gurdjieff work group always emphasizes that you shouldn't blindly believe stuff that you haven't verified yourself. I'll frequently bring up some far-out star-eyed claim in some book, and they'll be like "Okay, that stuff is really hard to talk about." Several times, I've brought up something like the vagueness of the word Energy, the unfalsifiability of claims relating to immortality, stuff like that --- and frankly, most of my objections are about their claims about objectivity, objective consciousness, objective meaning. I've spent decades of my life in a postmodern absurdist reality tunnel, and this work predates those ideas, so some of them just don't have a house in my existant mental landscape. Generally, the Gurdjieff people will tell me:

"Don't sweat it too hard. Those of us that have been talking about this stuff for decades, we rarely talk about the "big cosmic stuff", it's a little harder to relate to. Most of us are drawn to certain parts of the work because they resonate with us. Gurdjieff wrote a lot of stuff, not all of it is going to be right for you. When he had a big idea, he tried to build a lot of different roads to it."

And I'm down with that, to a degree -- I'm not here for immortality, I'm here to wake up, to escape the mediocrity of my life. In the 1900s, there was a lot of talk about seances and the "other side", and Gurdjieff kind of needed to put a paw down into that topical world--but it's really not the focus of his work, nor my goal personally.

So -- all that is saying, I haven't gotten tooooo deep into that part of the pool.


On the topic of the immortal soul, I'll say this ---

1. The Gurdjieff work regards a part of us as immortal already. This is atman, in the Upanishads. It's Emerson's Over-Soul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Over-Soul). It is fundamentally distinct from ego and personality.

2. I dig the part in in search of the miraculous where someone asks about immortality and Gurdjieff tells them, look, you change every frickin day. There is nothing constant about you other than your environment. If something big happened in your life, you'd become a different person. If something as big as death happened, whatever part of you remains is also going to be dramatically changed by it. If You (Today) met You (Dead), you might not even recognize each other.

3. If you're talking about immortality in the sense of your ego, your personality surviving death ... that's probably not gonna work out.

4. When Gurdjieff writes about immortality, I think it's best read it non-literally. Every passage I've read about immortality can scan as talking about something pretty ordinary and terrestrial. He basically says that if you were a really strong presence in the world, you might continue to affect it even after you're gone. In my reading of the text, I think he's talking about how, today, we are still influenced by Ghandi and Elvis and Gurdjieff even though they have been dead for a long time. When they were alive, they affected the world so much that parts of them remain and essentially continue to function. That kind of immortality, for sure, is earned--not everybody gets one. And there's nothing mystical about it.


And I'll be honest, I'm skeptical of astral projection. I don't doubt that you've had experiences, I just am not clear on what they are or what they tell us about the world. Do you think the astral body you project is the same thing as Gurdjieff refers to as the immortal (kesdjan) body? Does astral projection give you knowledge of those that have already died physical deaths, an understanding of that world? How do you know that you're not just in a trance of heightened imagination? How confident are you that your astral-body is will still be around after physical death? and not just yours, but everybody's? In what sense are they still part of the world, given that it doesn't seem like they do anything that we can notice?



thank you for the thoughtful post!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 03, 2018, 02:59:00 PM
Quote from: Finn on January 03, 2018, 06:28:52 AM
Another Gurdjiffian notion I find to be (mostly) bullshit is the necessity of making "super efforts" to effect change. It's true, there are circumstances that arise where you do need to amp up things as high as they can go, to really force the juice along. Yet in my life what's been way more important is consistent on-going effort. The "pay attention and stay awake" game requires a deeply relaxed  yet focused attention.  Instead of using a sledge hammer to vanish a rock "Hulk go Smash!"  I favor the wind & water way. Steady relaxed focused attention. Wind & water over time will smooth down that stone  into nothing. You have to be patient and not expect immediate results. But steady relaxed effort bears fruit.  Super-efforts mostly create tension which can cramp attention. Yet there are times to amp it way up. Nothing is written in stone.

I've really only read one or two chapters that talk about super efforts, so I'm not real savvy. And I'm grounded in wu-wei, so I get what you mean. Go with the flow, and yo often get there without wasting your breath.

Here's how I read it though -- there are a lot of things that you cannot accomplish through ordinary efforts. I think about some of the major life changes I've made, some of the moments when I really stopped and took an assessment of who I was and what I wanted to be and corrected my course --- in those moments, I was really awake. And none of those moments happened under ordinary circumstances, they happened because I was facing an enormous pressure and needed an enormous response.

The Wu-Wei thinking from Taoism is that you should be able to approach these "super-efforts" head on. Ideally, you should make life changes as effortlessly as you order a pizza. In the Chao Te Ching, we said "Universe isn't sweaty, why should you be?" Sometimes, you do have to go into the crucible. You just want to walk out okay, not all wounded and burned, self sabotagued by doubt and insecurity.


I think about how the work groups which Gurdjieff led would engage in fasting, or the Stop exercise, or demand other hardships from their members. On some level it's a literal exercise--you face a hardship on purpose in order to develop "muscles". If you have no practice using your will, fasting is hard. Your body keeps throwing "go get some food" instructions into the processor. Without will, you just follow those instructions mechanically.


tl;dr:
Mastering the self, controlling your impulses, escaping your prison cell... you get better at it with practice. And you get more practice by climbing a difficult mountain than from a lifetime of climbing easy hills.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 04, 2018, 01:31:01 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 03, 2018, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: Finn on January 03, 2018, 06:05:49 AM



And I'll be honest, I'm skeptical of astral projection. I don't doubt that you've had experiences, I just am not clear on what they are or what they tell us about the world. Do you think the astral body you project is the same thing as Gurdjieff refers to as the immortal (kesdjan) body? Does astral projection give you knowledge of those that have already died physical deaths, an understanding of that world? How do you know that you're not just in a trance of heightened imagination? How confident are you that your astral-body is will still be around after physical death? and not just yours, but everybody's? In what sense are they still part of the world, given that it doesn't seem like they do anything that we can notice?



thank you for the thoughtful post!
You should be skeptical. (,can't stand the phrase "astral projection"  though. Too occulty for me)  Nobody should believe what I've written in that post.  You'd have too see for yourself, repeatedly verify it within your own experience  to think I'm not delusional. Me, I didn't go looking for it at first  It happened on it's own. I began to try to voluntary initiate it happening. Basically by remaining alert and watchful as my body fell asleep. When my body was so relaxed I couldn't even feel it any more I would try initiating movement.  If I succeeded at that, the game became to see how much attention I could pay, to amp up my presence. You ask very good questions, like how do I know it's not a trance state. Basically,  my own conscious awareness is equal to or greater than my own everyday physical awareness ( as little or as much as that may be) I was as awake just as I am in daily life, the same sense of self, the same ordinary me. Except I'm in a different environment  (usually) and... I can fly.  It's different from lucid dreaming . With that there's still the feeling of "dream". With this other thing, there is no feeling of dream. You are as awake as much as you are in ordinary life (however much that is for you)  It's hard to explain. After decades of this, I became a member of a small group where we would verify the experience. An example: I took a nap. Went to a group members house ( in another state ) Saw and heard her talking to someone she called Suzie. When I got up from my nap, I emailed her and described what I heard and saw. She said her daugher-in-law was visiting her. Suzie. I had no knowledge of her name or that she existed. We all did these kind of verifications. Eventually you go "fuck it, this is boring verifying shit.  Let's explore!"  So basically my answer is: if that non-physical reality is an illusion, then ( for me)  so is this physical reality. Because the sense of realness is equal for me.  I'll answer yer other questions later, frustrating though my answers might be.  Gotta do some things.  Don't believe any of this. I wouldn't respect you if you did.  And hey! Maybe I'm completely  bullshitting you! You have no way to tell. It's text on a screen.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 04, 2018, 05:17:49 AM
Do I feel that I'm exploring the afterlife? Yes. (Or as I choose to call it: more life )  Want a little map? Makes a weird story.  The afterlife is a whole lotta real estate. Immediately out, there are the Belief System Territories.  Any specific belief has it's own piece of non-physical real estate. No matter how beautiful the belief,  each  belief territory is a trap, a static stuck place. That can only be escaped from once a crack in your belief in that place occurs.  These places are to be avoided. Believe in a specific heaven? Great! You'll go there. And be stuck. Maybe for a very very very long time. My interests lie outside of the Belief Systems. That's where I hang. There's higher realms past  where I can access, but I am quite dense as I am now. Too much load. Gotta lighten up quite a bit more. Too heavy as I am . Damn, this sounds fricking nutso, donut? The most important spot for all of us is...here. Physical reality. Having the Human Experience. There is stuff available here that exists nowhere else. That has incredible value, here and elsewhere. Yes, some things you can take with you. Like a sense of humour, a sense of having fun. You have no idea how valuable those things are in the "after-life".  Incredibly valuable. So why bother accessing "more life" if we are already in the most important place we can be, the Human Place? Well....you lose the fear of death for one thing. That really takes a certain edge off of things. Not that I don't fear the potential process. Pain & suffering etc. But not the outcome... I completely understand if y'all think I'm insane. I'm fine with that. I rarely talk about this shit.  And will not mention it again. Frankly, it's kinda boring for me to talk about. Oh, but back to Gurdjieff terminology. Does your personality survive death? No. Your essential self does. 
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fin on January 11, 2018, 06:14:10 AM
For  short time, before I moved to the West Coast, I was in a group on the other coast. The teacher had a sense of humour, was spontaneous...unlike many I've met. (Damn, lot of stiff folk in any belief-system!)  I loved his presence.  Kind & full of laughter and enjoyment. His teacher was still alive and had been a student of the Dude Himself. I worked in a group on the West Coast until that teacher died.  All in All, maybe.. 8, 9 years total in the formal "Work". I was a short-timer. For a decade I was an associate of someone who the Foundation dislikes. He published a hoax Gurdjieffian book called "Secret Talks with Mr. G.", including hilarious  photos of my friend dressed up as Gurdjieff. He and I are intertwined in a way that's difficult to explain.  He did use the notions in a practical way and had recieved teachings from several of G's core students.  But I see my friend more as an artist and a showman than a spiritual teacher. Which is how I can identify with him and remain close....I'm not a "Gurdjiffian", just like I'm not a "Buddhist" or a "Discordian".  There is a category  I might apply to myself and reveal if I was under torture but that's private and Ain't Nobody's Fucking Business but Mine. (As the song goes)  'scuse for mucking up your thread. You probably know more about Fourth Way stuff than I do at this point. I was in it for the gritty juice, not the ideas so much. G'luck!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: minuspace on January 16, 2018, 11:52:56 AM
Hailing from the western lands, I (still lacking full comprehension of the subject) was drawn to question this:
>> So -- all that is saying, I haven't gotten tooooo deep into that part of the pool.

>>On the topic of the immortal soul, I'll say this ---

>>1. The Gurdjieff work regards a part of us as immortal already. This is atman, in the Upanishads. It's Emerson's Over-Soul. It is fundamentally distinct from ego and personality.

The "part" that is immortal, do you think that if it could, somehow, it would default to /not/ introducing itself? 
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 16, 2018, 03:10:38 PM
I'm not sure I follow the question..?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: minuspace on January 18, 2018, 03:16:18 AM
Me too. It was late. I suppose I was fishing for Gurdjieff's stance on the "question" of the immortal thingie. I don't really know his work at all; still I figured he'd be one that understood the value of the question to be above any teaching of its answer. Beyond the anxiety that riddles my monkey when having to parse such questions, I do find myself in fear of derailing the thread (a general condition of mine). I did like distinction offered between selves personal and essential, though I perdure in being unable to suffer the semantics of essence(s) over experience. This clarification is more considered than I thought it would be (not ever intending disrespect, just crazy stressed by various monkey business things that "essentially" only allow me to concentrate for a moment when I can excuse myself)
[*Lu, having difficulty UN-depressing the irony button, starts bashing it with huge bags of empty fucks*]
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 18, 2018, 04:24:47 PM
 :lol: sorry I am still having trouble parsing what you're asking?

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: minuspace on January 18, 2018, 10:57:07 PM
I think I was looking for this:
>>"Immortality is one of the qualities we ascribe to people without having a sufficient understanding of their meaning,"
—Gurdijeff
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on February 15, 2018, 03:41:35 PM
In our group, we've been talking about the Black Iron Prison. (They don't use the "black iron" part, but it's defintiely the same idea.)

Our automatism takes over our lives. We need habits and schemas and heuristics, but we get stuck in them like machines.

Through dilligent and continual self-observation, we can develop an internal "watcher" who can notice when we have slipped into our mechanical routines.

When you notice yourself acting mechanically, that in itself is a type of freedom (or a sign post pointing towards it). When you observe the Robot, the part of you making the observation is not the Robot. If only we could remember that part of ourselves all the time...


There are practical things you can do, physically, which help you develop this watcher. The body and mind and emotions are tightly linked. Your postures and habits always seem to lead you back to your normal automatic way of being. You might try to be different from how you are today, but then you fall into a habit (smoking a cigarette, answering the phone, whatever) and suddenly the Robot is driving again. So maybe there are postures and movements which the robot cannot do. If we experiment with them, perhaps we can find a new way of thinking, feeling, being.




I'm reading this James Moore biography of Gurdjieff. He keeps invoking this image of the Yazidi children who Gurdjieff played with when he was growing up. The Yazidi are thought of as devil worshippers. If you draw a circle of salt around a Yazidi, they won't be able to get out of it.

Gurdjieff's role as a teacher was to disturb the circle of salt that people draw around themselves.

For example, the Hartmanns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rasho1zv-co) came from an upper class background, approached Gurdjieff at the beginning of the Bolshevik Revolution. The Gurdjieff school was about to embark on a terrible and dangerous journey through the wilderness, ultimately passing through the front lines of the war five times before they found respite. A weak person would not survive. The Hartmanns wanted to join G, but he knew their status and propriety would be an enormous burden. So he began breaking them out of this circle of salt.

Gurdjieff, the sly man, lured the Hartmanns in by presenting himself as a wealthy prince, someone like them - but when they made the journey to meet him, he adopted the mannerisms of a pauper, made them stay in a hovel, and eat cheap food. (this, btw, was also an act)

When they were about to leave, Gurdjieff told Olga de Hartmann - "You won't be able to come with us. For money, we'll be getting jobs as rock breakers on the road. It's enormously hard work. At the end of the day, the women have to wash the men's feet, and Zaharoff's feet will be very smelly, so you won't be able to do it."

This puts Olga in the position of insisting that she can do it, this won't be an issue --  because this assertion comes from her, it is stronger and worth more than if somebody else told her she could do it. Gurdjieff had to shock her, tease out her strength, make her choose for herself to shed her status and ego. And then, she was ready to become.



that sly man
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Ziegejunge on February 15, 2018, 10:45:12 PM
At risk of being redundant, thank you again for this thread and for sharing your Gurdjieffian experiences with us!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: POFP on February 19, 2018, 06:17:00 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 15, 2018, 03:41:35 PM
In our group, we've been talking about the Black Iron Prison. (They don't use the "black iron" part, but it's defintiely the same idea.)

Our automatism takes over our lives. We need habits and schemas and heuristics, but we get stuck in them like machines.

Through dilligent and continual self-observation, we can develop an internal "watcher" who can notice when we have slipped into our mechanical routines.

When you notice yourself acting mechanically, that in itself is a type of freedom (or a sign post pointing towards it). When you observe the Robot, the part of you making the observation is not the Robot. If only we could remember that part of ourselves all the time...


There are practical things you can do, physically, which help you develop this watcher. The body and mind and emotions are tightly linked. Your postures and habits always seem to lead you back to your normal automatic way of being. You might try to be different from how you are today, but then you fall into a habit (smoking a cigarette, answering the phone, whatever) and suddenly the Robot is driving again. So maybe there are postures and movements which the robot cannot do. If we experiment with them, perhaps we can find a new way of thinking, feeling, being.

This got me thinking about the behavioral tendencies of those who always seem to counter the status quo and the natural order of things, and how they connect to the brain.

I'm sure we all remember that kid from grade-school that wouldn't keep still. He/she's always rocking back and forth in their chair, tapping their feet, tapping their pencil on the desk, tilting the desk back and forth, etc. They were often clumsy, and would occasionally tilt their chair back too far and eat shit in front of the whole class. And on the other end of the spectrum, we all remember that person who was almost pathologically consistent and precise with their movements. They didn't move unless they had to, and when they did, they tried to make sure it was quiet and unnoticeable. Each action was often completely calculated.

These behavioral tendencies represent the opposing sides of the awareness/consciousness scale from a neurological standpoint.

The kid who can't stop moving is often described as the kid with ADHD. More complex disorder symptom presentations exist, of course, but for the sake of simplicity and concision, this will suffice.

The kid who calculates all of their decisions and movements could potentially have some sort of OCD or anxiety disorder.

Each of these disorders is involved with the relationship between the Basal Ganglia, which is an important set of brain structures that are essential for the Reward Center of the brain, and the Prefrontal Cortex, which is responsible for establishment of memory, as well as conscious awareness and lucidity. It's theorized that focus and attention manifest as a result of a reverberating feedback loop between these two brain structures, and that dysfunction of this circuit results in disorders like those described above.

When the Basal Ganglia is active, but requires higher-order processing for executive function, it triggers activation of the Prefrontal Cortex. Here, information is processed and stored for later retrieval in the form of consequence cognition, and other information required for conscious decision-making. When the prefrontal cortex is finished, it sends a "cool, message received and handled, now fuck off" message back to the Basal Ganglia, reducing its overall activity to prepare it for the firing it will need to re-activate the prefrontal cortex in the future. For the kid with ADHD, this relationship is weak. The Basal Ganglia's signals aren't strong enough to trigger or maintain activation of the prefrontal cortex effectively, reducing the amount of information that is stored for executive functioning and memory, and reducing the person's overall awareness. The brain, which requires this relationship's success to function properly, craves dopaminergic release in the Basal Ganglia to strengthen the bond between the two structures, since they mainly communicate with Dopaminergic circuits. This is achieved with self-medication using stimulants, or with the excess physical activity we've been observing, since motor control in the brain is also regulated largely with Dopamine. This habitual, excessive physical activity acts as an anchor for consciousness and awareness, and demonstrates precisely what you were describing above. Without it, the ADHDer remains a slave to habitual monotony.

The person with calculated decisions has the exact opposite problem. Their Basal Ganglia is suppressed by excessive activation of the prefrontal cortex, and that "fuck off" message that gets sent as a response. They lack the ability to form the habits that allow them to go on autopilot, placing them in a state of constant awareness. Minor details, like their movements and physical actions, get hyper-analyzed and the person loses the ability to naturally focus on the important details in their current situation. The mind's reaction to this is the ability to multitask constantly, which overloads and exhausts the person, leaving them unwilling to go out of their comfort zone.

Most people who don't have pathologies are somewhere in between these two points on the awareness scale in terms of behavior and cognition. Developing a method for intentional, and productive (As opposed to habitual) awareness should likely be based on the neurological circuit behavior of the person who intends to change. For the person who is often too aware, the solution may be scheduling a simple set of actions to take regularly (Either every day, or every couple hours) that require little effort and attention, to allow for the prefrontal cortex to take a break from processing menial tasks once the scheduled task has become habitual. Otherwise, it may be applicable to take a GABA-A receptor agonist, like Valerian Root in order to calm the prefrontal cortex and allow for productive awareness when it's intended, and not at all times.

For the person who is often less aware, the solution could require stimulants to fix the imbalance, or similar actions to the ones you've described previously regarding leaving yourself triggers for momentary consciousness. It could also be assisted with the ADHDer's natural supplement: Excessive physical activity. Make it a point to tap your fingers or feet on something to anchor yourself to your surroundings and environment and trigger awareness. But be sure to avoid consistent timing and activity patterns, so as to prevent it from becoming a habit. As you mentioned before, the moment you perform something habitual, you put yourself at risk of losing your awareness.


Quote from: Cramulus on February 15, 2018, 03:41:35 PM
I'm reading this James Moore biography of Gurdjieff. He keeps invoking this image of the Yazidi children who Gurdjieff played with when he was growing up. The Yazidi are thought of as devil worshippers. If you draw a circle of salt around a Yazidi, they won't be able to get out of it.

Gurdjieff's role as a teacher was to disturb the circle of salt that people draw around themselves.

For example, the Hartmanns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rasho1zv-co) came from an upper class background, approached Gurdjieff at the beginning of the Bolshevik Revolution. The Gurdjieff school was about to embark on a terrible and dangerous journey through the wilderness, ultimately passing through the front lines of the war five times before they found respite. A weak person would not survive. The Hartmanns wanted to join G, but he knew their status and propriety would be an enormous burden. So he began breaking them out of this circle of salt.

Gurdjieff, the sly man, lured the Hartmanns in by presenting himself as a wealthy prince, someone like them - but when they made the journey to meet him, he adopted the mannerisms of a pauper, made them stay in a hovel, and eat cheap food. (this, btw, was also an act)

When they were about to leave, Gurdjieff told Olga de Hartmann - "You won't be able to come with us. For money, we'll be getting jobs as rock breakers on the road. It's enormously hard work. At the end of the day, the women have to wash the men's feet, and Zaharoff's feet will be very smelly, so you won't be able to do it."

This puts Olga in the position of insisting that she can do it, this won't be an issue --  because this assertion comes from her, it is stronger and worth more than if somebody else told her she could do it. Gurdjieff had to shock her, tease out her strength, make her choose for herself to shed her status and ego. And then, she was ready to become.



that sly man

Very clever indeed. I'm building quite a bit of respect for Gurdjieff, even through indirect, interpreted understanding.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on March 14, 2018, 01:27:40 PM
Our small group finished reading In Search of the Miraculous. Would definitely reccommend it. Though take it with a grain of salt--Ouspensky's relationship to Gurdjieff is complicated, and he gets hung up on certain things that are immaterial. As an intellectual, he also lets the specifics occlude the metaphor.

I'm also just wrapping up James Moore's biography of Gurdjieff, which was also a fantastic read. Even if you don't get into the actual Fourth Way stuff, Gurdjieff himself was a fascinating character--just reading about his life is a crazy ride.


Just wanted to share a few fragments which have struck me.


Every week, they have us try a different practical exercise in self observation. One of them takes a little time and patience, it's about 10 minutes of focusing on different body sensations, on inhabiting your limbs and feeling how your attention changes your experience of them. Someone in our group noted that the first few days were easy, but on day 3+ he had a lot of trouble focusing. He was given a good piece of advice - losing focus doesn't mean you're failing. Observing how you lose focus is part of the exercise.

We lose our focus constantly! What's happening in that exact moment? feel it out... become acquainted with it.



I was invited to another talk at the Gurdjieff foundation in Manhattan. This talk was about listening. It's interesting -- at first, I found the talk a little dry, and repetitive. But over the next few days, my thoughts kept returning to it. There was a lot said which I didn't understand, and the meaning gradually unfolded. It was almost like it was being digested by my slower emotional center, rather than the quick intellectual center. Maybe that's why everybody talks so slowly and deliberately at these things... every word counts. "Every note is a full octave on another plane"

Listening to your partner is has a lot to do with being present. This is something I struggle with; I'm often in my head, analyzing and going on tangents, and my attention strays from the conversation. I zone out. I forget what they are talking about and then I pick it up from context. But when I'm talking to someone with a presence, someone who is really there, in the here and now, they are listening to every word I'm saying, giving it full attention and consideration.

That's why one of the exercises Gurdjieff reccommends is to mentally put yourself in your conversation partner's shoes. What would it feel like to be them, right now? Imagining this takes all three of your brains.

It also helps develop the egolessness that is behind the veil. Because there is something that is alive in this universe, and that is shared. It's not individualized. Our personalities and our bodies make us think of ourselves as separate, but the spark animating the meat is collective, ancient---it was born in the first cellular life and we will pass it on like torchlight, a continuous unbroken light from the beginning of humanity until its final breath.

And being a good listener is part of it. When you listen, and you can feel the words affecting you, you're not just processing them with your intellect but also feeling the emotions behind them, how the subtle postures and body movements are all expressions are intertwined with it.... when you're really listening .... there is something in the universe that listens to other parts of the universe, and it's not just egos.



Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on March 20, 2018, 02:54:16 PM
So i've started reading Beelzebub's Tales..

I am about 1/3rd of the way through at the moment. At first it was hard due to all the made up words and then I was like 'oh hey this is just a weird scifi book'.

Now I am kind of getting into it and there are bits that seem to make sense and other bits that are super far out.

Maybe I should have read something of Ouspensky's first. I can definitely see the benefits of reading this kind of thing in a group - some passages and chapters seem to have a lot to unpack that's clearly going over my head.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on March 20, 2018, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Vanadium Gryllz on March 20, 2018, 02:54:16 PM
So i've started reading Beelzebub's Tales..

I am about 1/3rd of the way through at the moment. At first it was hard due to all the made up words and then I was like 'oh hey this is just a weird scifi book'.

Now I am kind of getting into it and there are bits that seem to make sense and other bits that are super far out.

I also made it about 1/3rd of the way through, then I figured I should start with something more clear.

One of the cool things about Beezlebub's Tales is that it takes a little while for it to unfold itself in your brain. You may read it and have no effect, but a week later, something will click.

It's interesting how the language is intentionally exhaustive. It's trying to tax your intellect so that it gets bored and lazy. You have to stay present while reading it - I said elsewhere, it's a bit like training wheels.

[/quote]Maybe I should have read something of Ouspensky's first. I can definitely see the benefits of reading this kind of thing in a group - some passages and chapters seem to have a lot to unpack that's clearly going over my head.
[/quote]

Yeah I reccommend In Search of the Miraculous as a primer.

Right now I'm reading Unknowable Gurdjieff by Margaret Anderson -- (after picking it up in a used book store) it's tight, accessible, and short -- intended for the newcomer. If you want something even shorter than In Search Of, then it might be a good place to start.

Glimpses of Truth (also published under the title "Views from the Real World") is a transcript of several elemental Gurdjieff lectures - it's also a nice way to drink 'from the source' in short form.


Any Gurdjieff seeker will also tell you - some parts of the work are only accessible by groups. Reading about it on your own can only take you so far. Parts of the Work are better transmitted through the oral tradition than through the written word. That's not to say that your time reading about it is wasted! Not at all. But if you live near a big city, try to track down Fourth Way groups that may meet there - it's worth it. It's one thing to read about it. It's another thing to experience it personally.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on March 22, 2018, 04:56:25 AM
In Search Of The Miraculous and Meetings With Remarkable Men are my two favorites, I think.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 03, 2018, 02:28:10 PM
Been a while since I posted an update. I'm still doing the work.

They've been having us do this daily exercise. I mentioned it a few posts ago, but I'll talk about it again.

A form of meditation. In it, you direct your awareness into each part of your body, in sequence. Inhabit the left shoulder. Then the left upper-arm. Then the elbow. Then the forewarm. Then the wrist, top of hand, palm, fingers... then you spread your awareness out to inhabit your entire arm. You move through each limb this way in sequence. When you've done all four limbs--waking them up and making them more alive--you focus your awareness into your head, then your shoulders, down your torso through your core... and finally, a global awareness of your entire body. You go through this process twice per "exercise".

Gurdjieff once reprimanded the American contingent: "You don't do self-observation. You just do mind-observation." During this exercise, you're getting distracted constantly, by thoughts, by emotions. Instead of going with them, you try to see what they are. Observe the parts of you that steal your focus, that initiate a chain of habit.

I find that the first time I run through this cycle, it's like rebooting my body. There are signals that are coming into my consciousness all the time but I'm not listening to them. This exercise feels like I'm making sure all these wires are plugged in firmly, there's no noise on the line, the whole organism is, briefly, united.

I found this exercise very difficult at first. Your intellect is bored already, it wants to be doing something else. It wants to be processing something, revisiting something, doing something. And usually, my intellect grabs the reins and yells GIDDYUP to the horse. But it doesn't know where it's going! There is a type of awareness that emerges when the intellect sits down alongside the body and emotions.

Even the process leading up to this exercise is part of the exercise. Your intellect thinks it already has what it's going to get out of it. You make excuses for why you don't want to do it. You busy yourself, put it off... but the ability to come in, to overcome these interal obstacles, to not get sucked into a process-driven train of thought ... I feel like that's part of it too.



a haiku I wrote a few years ago...


The steel train leaves the station

the floor is sticky

the daytime mind





There's a part of Beezlebub's Tales to his Grandson where he introduces something like this. In this section, the grandfather is talking to his adolescent grandson.

Quote"At your age, you are not yet obliged to pay for your existence.

"This present period of your life is not given you for paying your existence, but for preparing yourself for the future--for the obligations becoming to a responsible three-brained being.

"So in the meantime, exist as you exist. Only do not forget one thing: at your age, it is indepensable that every day, when the sun rises, while watching the reflection of its splendor, you bring about a contact between your consciousnessa nd the various unconscious parts of your common presence. Trying to make this state last, think and convince the unconscious parts--as if they were conscious--that if they hinder your general functioning in the process of ordinary existence, then in the period of your responsible age they will not only be unable to enjoy the good tha tis proper to them, but also your whole presence, of which they are a part, will not be capable of becoming a good servant of our Common Endless Creator, and will thus be unable to pay honorably for your arising and existence."


Recently, I've been finding this exercise very valuable.

Office life is not good for the body. Over the years I've learned to ignore all these signals from my body, like an ascetic. And there is some value to that - it's one of the "three ways". But to take the fourth way, I've gotta unlearn it now. Gotta stop being sedentary and passive, I've gotta flex my volition and remember - the self that chooses which steel train I'll take today.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 03, 2018, 03:20:53 PM
So it's like what some people call body scan meditation?

Can you expand on:

QuoteGurdjieff once reprimanded the American contingent: "You don't do self-observation. You just do mind-observation." During this exercise, you're getting distracted constantly, by thoughts, by emotions. Instead of going with them, you try to see what they are. Observe the parts of you that steal your focus, that initiate a chain of habit.

Is he saying that they pay too much attention to their thoughts and not enough to emotions and body?

Thanks as always for your continued updates! Still interesting hearing about what you're up to.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 03, 2018, 04:23:57 PM
Yeah, I think that's the gist of it - they were trying to examine the mind. The intellect often thinks it's the whole of the mind. The body, the emotions - they're part of it too, and the mind often forgets this.

Just looked up body-scan meditation -- yes, seems very similar! Except that in this Gurdjieff exercise, you aren't just relaxing the body in sequence, but also taking note of the ways you get pulled off course. There are two things I've noticed in my own work:

-When I'm focusing on inhabiting a body part, sometimes the mind wanders, gets distracted. In zen meditation, when you notice this, you're supposed to let go of it, put it to rest. In this Gurdjieff exercise, before you do that, you should take note of what it is. Like maybe I remembered something, and it touched off a series of emotions and mental rehearsals... when you notice this is happening, take note of what it is and why you started thinking about it.

-The imagination is dangerous. It has the potential to hijack the work and make us think we're doing the work.  Like, when I inhabit my left thigh, I can feel a certain sensation, a certain presence... but sometimes, I'm just imagining this sensation.


for the people following the more esoteric line - this is an example of the law of octaves, the law of seven -- how something can get pulled off course and turned against itself. At the "interval" moment, the course will veer naturally, the line departs into a side branch. You have to use a "shock" to pull the octave back into a straight line. The mind's awareness of itself (called 'self remembering') can act like a shock, filling the gap with awareness and keeping it on target.



The way that the imagination disguises itself as the work and hijacks it -- more broadly, the way that the wrong work disguises itself as the correct work -- was a topic at the meeting this week. We read a section from Views from the Real World ("Liberation leads to liberation" is the title of the talk) which spoke about Mr. Self-Love and Mrs. Vanity - two guardians of the self which must be mastered (not defeated).

These things have a dual nature, it's not so simple to say that they're good or bad. If you say that I'm a shithead, the words pass through my vanity and self-love before they enter my inner world and affect my "common presence". Maybe you're just an idiot -- in which case my self-love will block the words from affecting me. After all, if an idiot calls me an idiot, does it matter? But maybe I am a shithead - in which case, my self-love may resist anyway, preventing me from understanding you. The proper self-love accepts the criticism in the interest of becoming a better self.

In the zen tradition, they point you at egolessness - try to avoid vanity and self-love alltogether. That's why the first "three ways" are difficult - they work in the monastery, they work on the meditation mat, but it's very difficult to live like that all the time. The Fourth Way is about liberation, but during everyday life.



Quote"LIBERATION LEADS TO LIBERATION. These are the first words of truth — not truth in quotation marks but truth in the real meaning of the word; truth which is not merely theoretical, not simply a word, but truth that can be realized in practice. The meaning behind these words may be explained as follows: By liberation is meant the liberation which is the aim of all schools, all religions, at all times. This liberation can indeed be very great. All men desire it and strive after it. But it cannot be attained without the first liberation, a lesser liberation. The great liberation is liberation from influences outside us. The lesser liberation is liberation from influences within us."
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 05, 2018, 07:11:52 PM
On the difference between Knowledge and Understanding ----

Knowledge is an accumulation of facts. We acquire knowledge really fluidly. It's stored inside of us in various places, and isn't always accessible. You might forget it - or some knowledge you have might contradict other knowledge, and you might not be aware of that. Sometimes you act in ignorance of knoweldge you actually do possess - that's because it's disconnected, only plugged into your consciousness through association.

Understanding is when the knowledge is integrated into our being. It's now part of the gestalt human and is reflected in everything we do.

To turn knoweldge into understanding, it has to be fired in the crucible of the awake mind. You have to think about it critically, use it, feel it. Gurdjieff says that Understanding isn't just ruled by the intellect, but the emotions too. And the body, to a degree. To understand something, you have to feel what you think, and think what you feel.

Essentially, you take the data from the intellectual processor and feed it into your emotional processor.
And take the data from your emotional processes and examine them using your reason and intellect.

for example -- I was planning a trip, and laying out the sequence of actions I needed to take to be ready. It made a lot of sense! Only on meditation after the fact did I realize how much I was asking of my girlfriend in order to make this schedule work. And she did it without hesitation, to make things easier for me! There is a tenderness and sweetness in her willingness to go along with it. I could shift the plan a bit, take on a little more work, and require less of her. This emotional awareness was not present when I building my plan--to taste the emotional quality of the schedule, I had to reprocess it using my emotions.



I vividly recall a moment when I was writing my college thesis... late at night, as I poured through the data, all the papers I had read suddenly crystalized and I experienced a flash of insight. Disconnected, they were just knowledge. Connected, they were understanding.


We make a lot of mistakes in our lives because we are not used to thinking about what we feel -- and feeling about what we think.

Sometimes I'm in an argument and I am so certain that I'm right... but the reason and emotions are different processors, usually disconnected from each other. For me, my intellect is dominant over my emotions. That means there are often flaws in my reasoning, an emotional callousness or insensitivity that I am blind to. If I could connect these two ribbons, I would live better.


My finding is that it's very hard to connect your reason and emotion in the moment. Easier to do during reflection.



On Small Aims------

I've mentioned these little tasks before. "Being awake" is too big of a goal. You might be able to awaken for a few moments, but then somebody asks what's for dinner and all of the sudden you're in that thought and that thought alone. And when you're in a train of thought, how do you zoom out and lose the myopic focus on it?

It seems to me that the "habitual mind" is asleep. Often when we are thinking about things, making decisions, etc, we are really applying a heuristic somewhat mechanically. We learned a rule about how to behave, or how things work, and so we apply that rule whenever we can. If I miss a train, I already know how it's going to affect my trip home, and what actions I should take to account for it - I don't really need to think about it, it's something I memorized the first time I missed that train. But the mind that first made the decision - it was awake, actively solving problems, processing data.

The Gurdjieff work is not about destroying your habits. We need our habits - without them, you would be paralyzed. You would take forever to get things done. But we all rely on habits too much. We even resist things that steer us away from our habitual responses, because it's more comfortable. The habits become a set of bars in the black iron prison. So we try to disrupt our habits, to inject a little bit of consciousness into them.

The Gurdjieff group gives us "small aims" every week. These are little informal practices that tend to be about disrupting a habit. For example, try holding a fork with your opposite hand. Does that affect your awareness of the meal? Do you eat differently? Do you taste the food more? Try it for a week and see.

We call it a "shock"--something that jars you out of your routine. A gap through which consciousness might shine. Try different things, you'll experience consciousness in different ways. Gurdjieff was all about disturbing people. They say - if a man was a vegetarian, Gurdjieff would make him eat meat. If he ate a lot of meat, Gurdjieff would put him on a veggie diet. The idea is to create a struggle within the self, to experience hardship consciously. To suffer voluntarily. That friction can produce something -- can develop consciousness.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on June 05, 2018, 07:49:19 PM
Would it be fair to say that "sleeping mind" might be too much of an active (and negatively connotated) verb?


Like, would "reliance on heuristics" work? People don't think beyond the heuristic, don't evaluate if that specific one applies in a certain situation, and essentially don't "think" about it.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 05, 2018, 08:38:11 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 05, 2018, 07:49:19 PM
Would it be fair to say that "sleeping mind" might be too much of an active (and negatively connotated) verb?


Like, would "reliance on heuristics" work? People don't think beyond the heuristic, don't evaluate if that specific one applies in a certain situation, and essentially don't "think" about it.

I think Sleeping is the right metaphor for the dream state / autopilot we exist in most of the time.

When I have my "ahah!" moments - when I finally see my own ignorance and laziness - when there is an electrical contact between my conscious and unconscious parts - I feel awake.

I've noticed, personally, that the experience of trying to "wake myself up" feels similar to an attempt to make a dream lucid. Like, look around right now---is this a dream? How can you tell? You have to be present, that's the only way to know. If the 'reality check' is mechanical, automatic, it doesn't work.

If the sleep metaphor doesn't play for you, think about it this way - being 'awake' is the opposite of mechanical action. In Illuminatus, Wilson and Shea describe the automatic processes as "the robot" and the self that can overcome the robot as "the human". Sometimes the human can even reprogram the robot, but the robot has to be defeated first.


"Reliance on Heuristics" speaks to a deficiency in the intellectual process. But doesn't describe other parts of the "sleeping" experience - like how I constantly filter out the data I'm receiving from my body (or emotions). It doesn't describe how when I'm emotional, my intellect is pulled into service of that emotion.




I'm reminded of that passage from the Principia Discordia - the Parable of the Bitter Tea.

In Chasing Eris, Brenton interviewed the writer of that passage ... that passage is about how your body / intuition is often way ahead of your mind. The character is brewing this tea, and he suspects that it's going to taste awful, but he's absorbed in the process and brews it anyway. And then he discovers what he already knew - it was a bitter tea. His mind is disconnected into different ribbons, they cannot communicate with each other while he's acting mechanically.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 05, 2018, 08:53:58 PM
I'm okay with the negative connotations of calling it Sleep because it's the state I want to overcome. I rely on it too much, and that's what keeps me comfortable - and mediocre.

In some ways, the "sleep" I'm trying to escape is a Black Iron Prison - a place where you are not entirely free, boundried by your own choices and tastes. You can never fully escape, but by actively confronting your own internal obstacles and habits (including the ones you like), by resisting your urge to settle into the most comfortable position, you can attain a higher degree of freedom.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 06, 2018, 01:48:57 PM
The Moment When Cramulus Finally Lost It

Getting you cats up to speed on my Reality Safari

For over a year now, I've been attending weekly meetings which include 5 "learners" and 2-3 "teachers". The terms in quotes have never been used - I'm just using them for ease of communication. The folks who lead the meetings don't present themselves as teachers or experts, just other people in the Gurdjieff work trying to figure things out. We understand this as a "preparatory group".



In In Search of the Miraculous, Ouspensky mentions that Gurdjieff charged people a sum of money (1000 Rubles) to study under him. Ouspensky prodded him about that, asking - if the work is so important, why charge for it? That's too much.

Gurdjieff indicated that it wasn't so much about the money as about making the group a commitment and a priority. "People do not value a thing if they do not pay for it." A small sacrifice will encourage people to treat the Work with gravity and approach it sincerely.

And it's also indicated that Gurdjieff gave a lot of people a pass on the "dues". People who genuinely couldn't afford it could (secretly) attend for free. Gurdjieff could be shameless in asking for cash (especially of rich high-society people who wished to study under him), but also famously generous. (and he never bragged about that generosity - he said "one should cultivate generosity in secret") (Gurdjieff and Money (https://www.gurdjieff.org/material12.htm))


So with that in mind, I've been waiting for the Gurdjieff Foundation to ask me for cash. In my mind, there's always that "IS THIS A PREDATORY CULT" question, and when the donation tray comes out, that's when we'll see the true colors. I keep Eris close by, and she reminds me that I can say "fuck it, these guys are spags" and flounce at any time. I like to keep this feeling in my front pocket, the awareness that I can choose to flip a mental switch and be repelled instead of attracted.


Last week, they told us that we'd be taking a break for the summer. And in September, when the Foundation opens again, that our group would be invited to become a "Foundation group". That means that we'd be welcome to attend any of the Gurdjieff Foundations events and activities, but we would also be responsible to pay dues. The money goes towards the rent and upkeep of the Gurdjieff Foundation building, which is an old firehouse in midtown Manhattan - a super expensive property to maintain, to be sure!

(https://i.imgur.com/XVNxRpz.jpg)

They said the dues would be $85 per month, which works out to about $1000 a year. (I was hoping they'd ask for 1000 Rubles, because that's only like $16) They also said that they money is not intended to be an obstacle - if you can't pay it, you can name an amount that you can pay. The important thing is that you make a firm commitment and then stick to it. You shouldn't say "Oh I can pay $75 this month" and then the next month, only $40. Someone in our group will have to volunteer as treasurer, collect the dues from the others, and then give it to the foundation on our behalf.

I'm encouraged... actual predatory cults don't tend to say "Pay what you can" - they have no problem draining you dry.

As a dues-paying member of the Gurdjieff Foundation, we would have the freedom to attend events at the Foundation building. There is a weekly reading from Beezlebub's Tales, and also "work days" and various activities. Most interesting to me is the class on the "Movements".

The Sacred Movements fascinate me, and I've always wanted to learn them. My first brush with the Gurdjieff work was watching some of the Movements performed on youtube (which is NOT the proper way to experience them, but god bless the 21st century) - something about them captivated me, calmed me, inspired me. The dancers are completely there. I want to be a part of that. They also speak to my aesthetic attraction to mysticism and esoteric knowledge - the dance is like a prayer you do with your whole being - not just your mind, but your emotions and body. They are like a language, with a deeply encoded symbolism which is invisible to us on the outside.

The movements classes won't begin until October - and they take place at 9 at night. This is a significant challenge for me, as I live outside of NYC and would have to take a train in the evening. They said that if you intend to learn the dances, to commit a year to it. So, I have until October to waffle about it and figure out how to organize my life so that I can do this. In the end, I am sacrificing comfort, which is maybe a good thing to sacrifice in the name of my aim.


Last night, I attended a presentation of Gurdjieff music at the Foundation. It was touching and beautiful music, soulful and evocative. At age 36, I was the youngest person in the room by at least 10 years.  :p I wonder what it will be like to study alongside these people. I wonder if I will come to the well and drink my fill, and then wander away. Or if I will drink and then dwell there.

Maybe it's the sunk cost fallacy, maybe it's my thirst for knowledge, but I'm ready to learn more. At this moment, looking at myself in the mirror and comparing it to myself when I started this Reality Safari ... I've changed, in a good way. I've gotten a lot more practice observing myself in very fine ways. The Gurdjieff work has illuminated an inner chamber which I've glimpsed through our talks about The Art of Memetics and the Black Iron Prison. I've gotten better at controlling - or at least, recognizing - the impulses and internal forces that fill my sails.

I can also sense when others have been initiated. Two weeks ago, I was at the Visionary Art Museum in Baltimore, and I was struck to a standstill by some of the art there. When someone has had the experience, all of their art reflects it. Sometimes I would look at a piece and instantly recognize that this person has been through the same gates I have, they have felt the unity of Thou Art That and the disjointed inner cacophony that stuffs itself into a trench coat and presents itself as the ego.

I can see how the works of Robert Anton Wilson and Timothy Leary are an Outer School, they are another manifestation of the fourth way into the temple. What I've been learning is in many ways the same thing that's at the kernel of My Discordianism, albeit less silly and more traditional. It reconciles the religion of my youth with the freedom of my adolesence and the critical edge of my adulthood.

We have a lopsided pineal gland, you know.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on June 06, 2018, 02:12:49 PM
This might be outside your knowledge base, but what makes Gudjieff music 'different' than other music?

I'm wondering if it's a different approach to music theory/composition, or if it's an ineffable "feeling" about it.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 06, 2018, 02:42:44 PM
That's a good question! A little outside my ken. I know that Gurdjieff intended the music in part as reconciliation between eastern and western forms. He worked closely with the composer Thomas de Hartmann on each piece, and supposedly encoding within it some of his teachings. Some of the music - like the sayyids - seems like it's designed to take on the emotional qualities of the performer.

heh, side story --- At the musical performance last night, there was this one old guy... we're all sitting and waiting for the presentation to begin. This guy gets up and adjusts the LED above the piano. Then says, rather harshly (albeit with a trace of humor) "Is that better, DOTTIE? Is the light PERFECT now? Is it not in your eyes??"

Then he faced another part of the crowd. The LED was glaring in our faces. He asked "How is it for you guys? Is it hurting your eyes? does it make you uncomfortable?" a few people nodded yes. The guy looked right at them. paused. nodded as if to say "good", and then sat down.  :lol:

Later, he would play a few pieces on the piano. The way he played was harsh, abrasive, hammering the low notes in a way that was startling and serious, like thunder. It was like I could feel his confrontational edge. And in this meditative space, I could feel the emotions that this confrontation provoked in me, though at a distance. Like I was watching myself from a third person perspective, like I was a character in a play, performing my lines and reactions as scripted.



I only know a little bit about the origins of the music... Gurdjieff sent Thomas de Hartmann and his wife on a sabbatical to Armenia to taste the culture there.

Here's a passage from James Moore's biography of Gurdjieff, on p 130

QuoteThomas de hartmann was now set a new task. As candidate pianist for the Sacred Dances, he urgently needed to master the distinctive idiom of oriental music; Gurdjieff therefore instigated and fanned in him a passion for Komitas Vardapet the ill-fated Armenian ethno-musicologist and national genius. 'I wish to speak', said Thomas, tightly gripping his lectern in Tbilisi, 'of Komitas Vardapet who is now in Constantinople, whose mental health is seriously injured and who is kept without money, without moral support, without the warmth of family and without friendship, having lost everything decrying the bloody massacres of the Armenians.' Three months earlier, Thomas had not heard of Komitas but under Gurdjieff's influence he could, for the moment, scarecy think of anyone else.

At the beginning of July 1919, when [Thomas's wife] Olga had gamely brought to concert pitch a repertoire of Armenian songs, Gurdjieff despatched the de Hartmanns to Armenia on a flying cultural visit. They arrived in Erivan debating whether the greatest achievement of the Komitas were actually his deciphering of the ancient neumes or his harmonic and polyphonic extrapolation of the Armenian folk melody. At night they sprinkled round the bed a 'magic circle of kerosene' to ward away lice and vermin; by day, walking to their concerts, they regretted the harrowing and distracting evidence of inefficent flour distribution: 'people sitting like corpses, homeless and starving, awaiting death.' On their final evening, the de Hartmanns were received by his beatitude Archishop Sarpazan Horen in his house high above the Zanga river:

QuoteWhen night fell, a full moon shone through the warm southern air and mount Ararat was wrapped in a shroud of mist: an unforgettable sight. To accompany this vision there was real Eastern music... different kinds of 'bayati' with 'gap'.

Just as Gurdjieff had intended, Thomas returned to Tbilisi attuned to the beauty, savagery, and immemorial melancholy of his teacher's Armenian heritage, and burning to translate it all into music.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on June 06, 2018, 02:54:40 PM
Thanks!

Looks like traditional Armenian music uses a different musical theory structure, which would naturally generate "non-Western" melodies and chords.  That's a good starting point, for me.


::wanders down the Wikipedia trail, looking into Armenian Jazz groups::
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 28, 2018, 01:29:12 PM
We had a break all month, and then we won't meet again until mid September.

The exercise they've been having us do is a variation on the one I described where you move your awareness systematically through your body, and then spread it out to encompass your whole body. This time around, they asked us to do three cycles. In each cycle- get the physical input coming from each limb, then the whole body, and then ask yourself

What do I REALLY value?

This exercise has been very challenging for me. Mainly because that question shakes me up.  As you're doing the meditation, you're not just experiencing the sensations from each body part, you're also trying to become aware of the myriad ways you get distracted, the subconscious forces pulling your thoughts. It's said that we're knitting together the conscious and unconscious parts.

And so, for me, early in the exercise, the answer to that VALUES question was mainly ideals. I value high minded humanistic things.

Late in the exercise, as I'm expanding my awareness of this "inner circle" from whence my actions originate - the high minded humanistic things fall apart. What do I REALLY value? Well fuck, look at what I do. My inner circle is dominated by pleasure and aversion. "Beavis and butthead like things that are cool and hate things that suck."

There is a discordance between the high-minded ideals I tell myself that I value and day to day operations of my actual control center. And that means that my "values" are just a story, really. As I join my awareness with the rim of the inner circle, I can see that behind that "pleasure and aversion" there is another layer... the force behind "approach and avoid" is just wanting to settle into the most comfortable position. This inner laziness is at odds with every high-minded ideal I have.

Ugh, it's painful to even think about... the futility of idealism and the enormity of the work. It really reflected myself back at me and I became disgusted. I know that this is part of the work - that ego death is not a "fun" experience. I know that I need to lean into that discomfort and exist there, because that's where the possibility exists -- to develop something solid.

But I decided to lean away harder, and explore the "Holy Denying" principle. (Also called Antithesis)


I'm at a crossroads right now. This Autumn, my Gurdjieff "preperatory group" will graduate into being a "foundation group", and that means paying dues and potentially going to a lot more of these meetings. And learning the Sacred Movements. But it also means filling my "inner circle" with more Gurdjieff, letting that old huckster deeper into myself. And I want to take a minute to pause on this and really think about it.

I joke all the time about how I'm in a cult. And I've really tried to stay eyes-open about this, aware of the subtle pressures that exist in the group and how they draw you in. I have not seen any of the red flags of a predatory cult. But still, they're asking for money now, and this is a real 'moment of truth'. Not just because of the money, but because paying money for something causes you to value it more. I may be exactly the type of person who is really vulnerable to their approach. So is this a good idea? You can be straight with me here, fam. Let me have it.


I did a deep dive to explore the writings of people who rejected Gurdjieff. I read a lot of cult recovery forums. There is no doubt in my mind that some of the people who drank from the fountain have capitalized on it and become spiritual predators. I just watched this documentary Wild Wild Country, which is about the Osho cult in Oregon... I could honestly see myself becoming one of those poor sannyasins that became soldiers in the army of a cult of personality.

I could feel myself obsessing. I have been reading a lot of Gurdjieff, thinking about his work a lot, it is such a big part of my mental landscape -- to the point that it started to become uncomfortable. It reminds me of this young version of myself that first discovered the Tao Te Ching or the Principia Discordia, and then couldn't keep my fuckin mouth shut about it, I was always trying to jam it into conversations and signal my knowledge about it... what a wanker

Thank the Goddess for my Discordian grounding. Eris always whispers to me "....others say he is a shithead". There is so much power and freedom in that statement.


And honestly, asking myself about my values three times a day... was so uncomfortable. Unsettling.


So I took a few weeks to NOT think about Gurdjieff at all. Walk away from it, let it sit.

And yesterday... I got overwhelmed with the news, and I realized I needed it again - I'm getting blown around like a leaf in the wind, and when I'm at rest, I am just trying to settle into the most comfortable position. I'm trying to do the Exercises again and I'm rusty, distracted, challenged.


I feel "between two stools" right now

there's a saying in the work



blessed is he that has a soul
blessed is he that has none
but woe and grief to he who has it in embryo


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 28, 2018, 02:19:49 PM
The Inner Circle

Here's how I'd describe it today...

Inside of you, there's this sphere. It is the control panel to the human machine.

The different parts of you (thoughts, emotions, daydreams, ideals, vices, physical hunger etc etc) attempt to reach into that sphere to control it. This is a zero-sum game, these parts are in competition. If one part gets control, then it feels like you are that part -- until another part gets control. You cou(ld call these parts "selves".


((as an aside -- this is closer to how the Romans and Greeks thought of the Gods. When you are angry, "anger is with you". Like, there is a god of anger, and he rules you in that moment -- when you act in anger, the god of anger is acting through you. Who you are is inseparable from Mars, Jupiter, Venus, Mercury, etc.. we are all Mount Olympus))



The sphere (for the old timers on this forum, maybe think of it as the "golden sphere of possibility"  :lol:) is only partially visible to us. When we view it, we're usually viewing it from above; the bottom half of it is occluded. That's the subconcious.

Sometimes hunger dominates the sphere, but I don't see that because there are other selves on top of it. The conversation I'm having with my girlfriend blocks me from seeing the hunger. But because the hunger is the chief of the sphere in this moment, it acts through the other selves. I get cranky or short, dismissive, and I think I'm being rational. But really, I'm just hungry. The hungry self is trying to get what it wants, and this conversation is in the way of that. I'm not even consciously aware that I'm hungry.


When you are really present, you can see the sphere. Resisting a habit is like lighting a match, a flicker of light reveals a network, a branching fractal like tree roots.

With some work and discipline, you can see the bottom half of the sphere.

This awareness is also a self, it is also reaching into the sphere to control it. But it's weak, equally weighted against the other selves. We have to champion it, we have to teach ourselves to be present, we have to crown that self and make it strong.




The Sixth Circuit - the metaprogramming circuit

In the show Westworld, sometimes there's a moment where the robots get to look at their own settings. All the different parts of their personality - aggression, compassion, lust, etc -- are sliders that are set by the writers. When the robot is handed the tablet with the control panel, they can see these things about themsleves - and have the freedom to set the sliders themselves.

But can they really adjust those sliders "freely"? The position of the sliders dictates what they want, how they think they should be.So what changes could they possibly make? If the aggression slider is high, why would you want to turn it down if that's what it seems like you are? does the aggressive part of you want to be less aggressive? no.



The goal for us humans is to see the positions of the sliders. By doing this, we create a perspective that is outside of them. We are able to see how we have been acting and make objective decisions about it. That's the self that has freedom, the one that sees the programming and can make a decision about it from outside of it.

In the Gurdjieff work, that's the ideal - to be. To develop the self that isn't just programming code, the writer who can edit the program.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2018, 02:28:30 PM
This is really cool, Cram.  Thanks for doing the work and reporting in.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 28, 2018, 03:46:52 PM
Thank you - I appreciate that people are following! Sometimes people pull on my sleeve and tell me "I like your Gurdjieff thread, I just have nothing to add" - which is cool, and I understand that a lot of my posts are a big wall of text, but feel free to jump and give your reactions too :P

The old timers in the group tell me that sometimes these "preparatory groups" have a code of secrecy. Not because our discussions are actually secret, but because stuff said in the group has a certain quality and reality - a face to face connection, a physical presence -- which is not present if you were to listen to a recording of it, or read my typed-up notes. The Gurdjieff Work is part of the oral tradition, and all I can really share with you guys is a 1-step degraded account of it.


I remembered another little note from the meeting the other day which I wanted to share -- when talking about this question "What Do I REALLY Value?"



Anyone remember Crowley's talk about the Hunchback and the Soldier?

ie ? and !

The Question Mark is called the Hunchback. This gnarly little character pops up when you want to know something.
The Exclamation Point is called the Soldier. It's the answer to the question. Every time the hunchback pops up, we call on the soldier to beat him back down.

The Questioning part of your mind is creative, thoughtful, analytical, awake.
The Answering part of your mind is like a stop sign. Once a question is answered, the question vanishes and we rest.


Maybe the hunchback is the better part of us.
Maybe we should check the soldier before he beats down the hunchback.

Try letting the gnarly hunchback stand--he can explore the landscape in a way the soldier can not.



What do I REALLY value? is a hunchback

instead of racing to answer the question, maybe let it stand there, let it explore the landscape

Instead of searching the past and present for your values, maybe the answer is in the future - maybe there are new values that can be discovered in this moment. Maybe you can be surprised by yourself.



Quote from: That old liar, CastanedaYou see, we only have two alternatives; we either take everything for sure and real, or we don't. If we follow the first, we end up bored to death with ourselves and with the world. If we follow the second and erase personal history, we create a fog around us, a very exciting and mysterious state in which nobody knows where the rabbit will pop out, not even ourselves.

      When nothing is for sure we remain alert, perennially on our toes. It is more exciting not to know which bush the rabbit is hiding behind than to behave as though we know everything.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on June 29, 2018, 02:00:24 PM
Cram I think that given your fiscally responsible habits you mentioned in your "jailbreaks" thread that it may well be worth your while to bust your wallet open and pay what you can to proceed down this path. We're talking about less money than some folks spend on their Steam accounts per year. On the quest to understand "What do I REALLY value?" observing what you spend for and how much could be a good point of reference.

They don't sound predatory. Given that they are not taking advantage of you it would seem that they are sincerely trying to pass on knowledge that can only be approached in stages and that is possible to abuse in the wrong hands. The "cult" is as much a filter as it is a means to interact. When you reach a higher level they may ask for more money or hand you some magical worldview as a next step. At that point you will have to decide whether to proceed at your own discretion, but for now it would seem to me that making the financial commitment alone could be a sort of jailbreak moment all on its own.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on June 29, 2018, 02:15:19 PM
[unsolicited advice]

You might also want to decide ahead of time what your max budget is.  Like, instead of "let's see how it goes", you set a definitive price, and monitor that.  Let's say you stake out three times the cost of annual dues.  Now you can observe and gauge what they're asking for in relation to the decision you made before you went down this new path, rather than in the heat of the moment.

[/unsolicited advice]
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on July 03, 2018, 02:23:31 PM
Good advice, cats! Just wanted to share one more line I remembered from the previous meeting.

When you're PRESENT, the outside world leaves a stronger impression on your nervous system. Your memories of that moment are clearer. You can then think more clearly because you have better data. When the outside world and inside world are well connected, you're more alive.

Gurdjieff once said the point of the whole work was


"Everything more vivid."


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Ziegejunge on July 03, 2018, 04:45:09 PM
It seems to me that you are a cautious, critical thinker, Cram, and on top of that I feel that you have a pretty good safety net when it comes to the community here. That said, I would encourage you to continue your Gurdjieff studies and pay the dues. The caveat being, of course, that I hope you'll elect to hit the eject button as soon as said studies stop seeming beneficial and start seeming rote, obligated, and/or suffocating.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 03, 2018, 04:46:28 PM
Quote from: Ziegejunge on July 03, 2018, 04:45:09 PM
It seems to me that you are a cautious, critical thinker, Cram, and on top of that I feel that you have a pretty good safety net when it comes to the community here. That said, I would encourage you to continue your Gurdjieff studies and pay the dues. The caveat being, of course, that I hope you'll elect to hit the eject button as soon as said studies stop seeming beneficial and start seeming rote, obligated, and/or suffocating.

Or they start promising you faster progress if you cough up some loot.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 03, 2018, 05:51:59 PM
I'd like to clarify that.  If they are asking for donations, or club dues, that's fine.  That's pretty much normal in all respectable cults, such as the Methodists.

It's when they say they can vacuum your chakras or whatnot faster or better if you pony up various levels of cash: Scientology, EST, teevee preachers, and the Church of the Subgenius (only that's different).

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on July 03, 2018, 06:10:55 PM
I think it'll just be limited to Dues, and they are flexible about how much you pay--which is generally not a characteristic of predatory cults.

One of the things I'm sensitive to is that in the Work, there's the idea of "conscious labor and intentional suffering" -- as a means of provoking presence and consciousness. That the self isn't usually found during comfort or complacency, it's easier to find it by experiencing a struggle consciously, by intentionally seeking out stuff you would normally avoid.

And so sometimes there are "work days" where people are literally just doing labor - cleaning, cooking, sorting, inventory, etc. And that's seen as a meditative practice.

But I know this - Gurdjieff got an awful lot of free labor out of his followers. I don't know where exactly the line is between asceticism and extortion. And maybe I won't know it until I get there.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 03, 2018, 06:16:04 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on July 03, 2018, 06:10:55 PM
I think it'll just be limited to Dues, and they are flexible about how much you pay--which is generally not a characteristic of predatory cults.

One of the things I'm sensitive to is that in the Work, there's the idea of "conscious labor and intentional suffering" -- as a means of provoking presence and consciousness. That the self isn't usually found during comfort or complacency, it's easier to find it by experiencing a struggle consciously, by intentionally seeking out stuff you would normally avoid.


So I can get self-actualization by, say, stepping into that big tank of saltwater crocodiles they have in Australia?

Or is this more of a "I'm intentionally putting 1970s Pink Floyd on infinite repeat" thing?

I mean, it's no big secret that all great cultural advances occur when people are being smashed down, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to climb in the arbor press on your own.

QuoteAnd so sometimes there are "work days" where people are literally just doing labor - cleaning, cooking, sorting, inventory, etc. And that's seen as a meditative practice.

But I know this - Gurdjieff got an awful lot of free labor out of his followers. I don't know where exactly the line is between asceticism and extortion. And maybe I won't know it until I get there.

The line is "day 1" unless the leader is himself doing the exact same labor.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on July 03, 2018, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 03, 2018, 06:16:04 PM
So I can get self-actualization by, say, stepping into that big tank of saltwater crocodiles they have in Australia?

Or is this more of a "I'm intentionally putting 1970s Pink Floyd on infinite repeat" thing?

it depends on attitude


If you have arachnophobia, most contact with spiders will cause you to panic.

If you are treating your own arachnophobia, you have to intentionally expose yourself to them.

Part of the Gurdjieff work (and part of the Discordian Jailbreak) is approaching the spider on purpose. If you are aware of how your mind is going to react, if you can observe the automatic as it's happening, you have created something that is outside of that kneejerk automatic response. That something can moderate your automatic responses - and it can be trained like a muscle. It's kind of like willpower, but also includes self-awareness.

The attitude is key. If someone doesn't want to overcome their spider phobia, then exposure to spiders is only going to cause panic. They have to want to overcome that reaction for the exposure to be therapeutic. They have to approach the spider with a certain mindset and goal.


If we accept that the self is a collective of competing impulses, competing selves,
and one of the reasons I can't change my life is that I get obssessed with "what I find pleasurable" and repelled by "what I don't find pleasurable"

-- then the course of my life is really dicated by the law of accident.

But if I can make a conscious decision, if I can escape from the two headed trap of WANT and DO NOT WANT, then I have an opportunity to arrive somewhere else.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 03, 2018, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on July 03, 2018, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 03, 2018, 06:16:04 PM
So I can get self-actualization by, say, stepping into that big tank of saltwater crocodiles they have in Australia?

Or is this more of a "I'm intentionally putting 1970s Pink Floyd on infinite repeat" thing?

it depends on attitude


If you have arachnophobia, most contact with spiders will cause you to panic.

If you are treating your own arachnophobia, you have to intentionally expose yourself to them.

Part of the Gurdjieff work (and part of the Discordian Jailbreak) is approaching the spider on purpose. If you are aware of how your mind is going to react, if you can observe the automatic as it's happening, you have created something that is outside of that kneejerk automatic response. That something can moderate your automatic responses - and it can be trained like a muscle. It's kind of like willpower, but also includes self-awareness.

The attitude is key. If someone doesn't want to overcome their spider phobia, then exposure to spiders is only going to cause panic. They have to want to overcome that reaction for the exposure to be therapeutic. They have to approach the spider with a certain mindset and goal.


If we accept that the self is a collective of competing impulses, competing selves,
and one of the reasons I can't change my life is that I get obssessed with "what I find pleasurable" and repelled by "what I don't find pleasurable"

-- then the course of my life is really dicated by the law of accident.

But if I can make a conscious decision, if I can escape from the two headed trap of WANT and DO NOT WANT, then I have an opportunity to arrive somewhere else.

I can see that.  The first time I got flung out the back of a plane, which I had fought for a chance to do, I was definitely "in the moment", which lasted about 10 years and the only reason my poop didn't run off without me is that my asshole had puckered up into my esophagus.  I recommend it to anyone.

On the other hand, I have an INTENSE dislike of country music made since 2010.  It is gutless and weak, and listening to it would not put me in the moment, it would just fill my head full of murder thoughts.

So maybe it's only fear and not loathing that works for this.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on July 05, 2018, 09:17:43 AM
Hey Cramulus, have you explored Sufism much?

If so, what do you think of it compared to Gurdjieff's work? (as he is known to have been heavily inspired by it). I'm a Sufi Muslim (highly heretical mind you) myself, aside from being part Discordian, so this is an area of constant learning. I definitely like Gurdjieff a lot anyway.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: minuspace on July 05, 2018, 09:46:45 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 03, 2018, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on July 03, 2018, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 03, 2018, 06:16:04 PM
So I can get self-actualization by, say, stepping into that big tank of saltwater crocodiles they have in Australia?

Or is this more of a "I'm intentionally putting 1970s Pink Floyd on infinite repeat" thing?

it depends on attitude


If you have arachnophobia, most contact with spiders will cause you to panic.

If you are treating your own arachnophobia, you have to intentionally expose yourself to them.

Part of the Gurdjieff work (and part of the Discordian Jailbreak) is approaching the spider on purpose. If you are aware of how your mind is going to react, if you can observe the automatic as it's happening, you have created something that is outside of that kneejerk automatic response. That something can moderate your automatic responses - and it can be trained like a muscle. It's kind of like willpower, but also includes self-awareness.

The attitude is key. If someone doesn't want to overcome their spider phobia, then exposure to spiders is only going to cause panic. They have to want to overcome that reaction for the exposure to be therapeutic. They have to approach the spider with a certain mindset and goal.


If we accept that the self is a collective of competing impulses, competing selves,
and one of the reasons I can't change my life is that I get obssessed with "what I find pleasurable" and repelled by "what I don't find pleasurable"

-- then the course of my life is really dicated by the law of accident.

But if I can make a conscious decision, if I can escape from the two headed trap of WANT and DO NOT WANT, then I have an opportunity to arrive somewhere else.

I can see that.  The first time I got flung out the back of a plane, which I had fought for a chance to do, I was definitely "in the moment", which lasted about 10 years and the only reason my poop didn't run off without me is that my asshole had puckered up into my esophagus.  I recommend it to anyone.

On the other hand, I have an INTENSE dislike of country music made since 2010.  It is gutless and weak, and listening to it would not put me in the moment, it would just fill my head full of murder thoughts.

So maybe it's only fear and not loathing that works for this.
I'd prefer if it was not a matter of taste, degustibus etc. About fear or rervous response, something about facing it can sometimes turn the chill of anxiety into a surge of excitement. Somatically, the effects are actually quite similar, though the mental distinction of avoiding vs. embracing the immanent groundlessness of it all can make a big difference? 
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on July 05, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
Quote from: Space Adventures Of Christ on July 05, 2018, 09:17:43 AM
Hey Cramulus, have you explored Sufism much?

If so, what do you think of it compared to Gurdjieff's work? (as he is known to have been heavily inspired by it). I'm a Sufi Muslim (highly heretical mind you) myself, aside from being part Discordian, so this is an area of constant learning. I definitely like Gurdjieff a lot anyway.

I've only dipped my toe in it - listened to a lecture about it in college, and read a handful of little articles and perspectives - yeah, there's a lot of shared ground. I would love a reccommendation for something short length to read about it.

Those dances tho! Spiraling closer and closer to the center... so cool. I understand that there are sufi practices that steer the practitioner into an ecstatic trance. I wonder how much common ground there is with the Gurdjieff Movements. 



Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: THE QLIPHITISER on July 09, 2018, 09:27:48 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on July 05, 2018, 02:12:55 PM
Quote from: Space Adventures Of Christ on July 05, 2018, 09:17:43 AM
Hey Cramulus, have you explored Sufism much?

If so, what do you think of it compared to Gurdjieff's work? (as he is known to have been heavily inspired by it). I'm a Sufi Muslim (highly heretical mind you) myself, aside from being part Discordian, so this is an area of constant learning. I definitely like Gurdjieff a lot anyway.

I've only dipped my toe in it - listened to a lecture about it in college, and read a handful of little articles and perspectives - yeah, there's a lot of shared ground. I would love a reccommendation for something short length to read about it.

Those dances tho! Spiraling closer and closer to the center... so cool. I understand that there are sufi practices that steer the practitioner into an ecstatic trance. I wonder how much common ground there is with the Gurdjieff Movements.

The dancing is only really found in certain Sufi Orders but yes, that in particular was a direct influence on Gurdjieff's Movements.
Sufism is a very broad subject of Islamic mysticism going from pure mystical theology/cosmology/astrology/kabbalah to magic/sorcery (Djinn seems to be the focus in much of it, despite being a largely unexplored area when it comes to translation  :oops: ) to 'shamanistic' practices (hallucinogens). We read the Quran with much more nuanced lens that mainstream Muslim sects, the Quran itself refers to Allah (in many various places) as being an outer force, inner force and even a method of attainment (which evokes Shaivism a little and Hadit in Thelema)

Yeah, seeing your ongoing interest in Gurdjieff (as I also do myself, having already previously attested to) it was a question I couldn't help but ask  :)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2018, 05:53:35 PM
Quote from: THE POLYFATHER on July 09, 2018, 09:27:48 AM

The dancing is only really found in certain Sufi Orders

Then what's the point?  It's what makes Sufiism fantastic.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: minuspace on July 10, 2018, 06:21:01 AM
Quote from: THE POLYFATHER on July 09, 2018, 09:27:48 AM

[..]
to magic/sorcery (Djinn seems to be the focus in much of it, despite being a largely unexplored area when it comes to translation  :-[ ) to 'shamanistic' practices (hallucinogens).
[...]

Well this is interesting, in a non-simultaneous yet synchronous sense  :)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on September 25, 2018, 01:09:28 PM
be here now


If you're not present, the autopilot is.

Gurdjieff once said "Everything that's not automatic is the Work."


When something happens, you react.
When something happens, and you're there, you're present in that moment, you can do something more than react--you can respond.


Step in the dog shit. Feel the fuckwords and disgust percolate up through your guts and into your entire nervous system. For a moment, they take over your consciousness, you become them, they act through you, action and reaction.

If you're present, your hands are on the control panel. Somebody's home. They can choose.





If Free Will exists, it's like a muscle--a weak, underdeveloped one. It exists only in these moments where the robot reaches for the control panel and somebody is there to say "wait".



be here now
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on September 25, 2018, 06:25:02 PM
Thanks for the reminder.

I did something really stupid a couple of weeks ago, simply because I was on autopilot instead of really being present.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2018, 07:55:55 PM
If God didn't want us to use the autopilot, he wouldn't have installed it.

On a serious note, there's a damn good reason we compartmentalize things.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on September 25, 2018, 08:32:21 PM
Agreed, but it helps me to periodically check in with how I'm compartmentalizing, and if the heuristics are still worth a damn.



In that case, they weren't.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2018, 09:05:59 PM
Quote from: LMNO on September 25, 2018, 08:32:21 PM
Agreed, but it helps me to periodically check in with how I'm compartmentalizing, and if the heuristics are still worth a damn.



In that case, they weren't.

Times you should be in the moment:  Spending an evening out with your wife, solving a problem, etc.

Times you should NOT be in the moment:  Listening to the teamwork consultant drone, that stink on the MBTS, etc

Times you ARE in the moment, whether you like it or not:  Getting a root canal, your brakes fail, etc.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 04, 2018, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 16, 2017, 03:14:56 PM
one of the things I've struggled with for 15 years now is the idea of free will.

There's a "law" in behavioral psychology called the Melioration Principle. It says that an organism will engage in a behavior until a competing behavior offers a better reward. You can see this every day, in everything you do. When you make a choice, what you're doing is really just a quantitative weighing of rewards. And doesn't that sound mechanical? Does that seem like free will? It seems like free will is just solving this calculus equation.

Gurdjieff says there's a way out of this. That there are moments when you can escape this inner slavery. Moments when your actions aren't mechanically dictated by external circumstances. With work, with awareness of the internal world, with "conscious labor and intentional suffering", we can achieve brief moments of internal freedom.

And I say: I will believe it when I see it.

But I'm not dismissing it until I have walked down the path myself. If this kind of freedom is possible, I want to taste it.




I believe it now. It's possible to have a moment of genuine free will.


It's only possible when you've brought about a contact between your conscious and unconscious parts.


Eventually, the limb-sensing exercise becomes a map to that place. In this place, in the inner circle of self, you can become momentarily free of the mechanical influences of the material world (behavioral conditioning ... stimulus & response).

Once you are outside of the ego, your actions can originate from something else.

(a voice in the distance whispers the word "reality"
another voice goes "shhhhhh")






Joseph Campbell talks about Holiness as the thing which bridges the higher and lower worlds, it is the neutral force between up and down.  The Holy Grail (https://www.sarahlawrence.edu/magazine/lost-found/features/holy-grail.html), to me, is the correspondence between microcosm and macrocosm. The laws of the inner world and the laws of the universe are the same.

The universe is the big jazz chaos, the AUM mantra. We're just one of the sounds inside of it. But if you sit for long enough, you lose the sense of that sound, you hear the whole composition. Being able to act on behalf of that composition, rather than the instrument in your hands, is holy.




Years ago, I had this epiphany when I noticed the dust behind my computer monitor. It occured to me that I look at this dust all the time, every day, and I never clean it! because I don't actually notice it.

How do we notice these things which are around us all the time, but are occluded by our daily rhythms and the way we choose to distribute our attention?

You need a Shock. I thought, once, that I could build these Shocks into my daily life as a routine. Every other Wednesday, I'd take 2 hours to do something different. And that novelty would allow me to return to the rhythm with fresh eyes, finally sensing the dust behind the monitor -- and also the unnoticed dust behind everything in my life.


This is why the Bible says you must remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. It means you need a break from your life, to go away and return. Because only then can you overcome the ego which drives everyday life and act in service to the higher world - this bigger picture is invisible unless you can step outside of the everyday rhythm and see it for what it is. The Old Testament also tells farmers they should let 1/7th of their fields lay fallow every season. This allows the soil time to regenerate, ensures the long term life of the farm. All things must rest so that they may again awaken.

Madame de Salzmann says that ordering your life so as to create the conditions for this awareness is sacred. In the Gurdjieff work, we don't casually throw around words like Holy and Sacred, they have so much baggage...  But now I understand what it means.



If you exercise every day, you may observe incremental change. But every so often, you can look back and notice how far you've come since the beginning. Right now I'm noticing how far I've come since I started this Work. And I've realized that I was doing the Work before I learned about Gurdjieff. (my Fractal Cult art project / cabal was part of it too.) A moment of ego death is holy. I can now recognize that I may have had a few flickering moments of free will during my life. And I am preparing myself to have one intentionally.  To experience free will, consciously, is like being born again.

Gurdjieff observed as a child that Yazidis were unable to step out of a circle traced around them on the ground. We are all like this, the circle is ego, behavioral conditioning, association, stimulus & response, culture, dogma, good and evil---the circle is the womb.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 04, 2018, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 16, 2017, 03:14:56 PM
one of the things I've struggled with for 15 years now is the idea of free will.

There's a "law" in behavioral psychology called the Melioration Principle. It says that an organism will engage in a behavior until a competing behavior offers a better reward. You can see this every day, in everything you do. When you make a choice, what you're doing is really just a quantitative weighing of rewards. And doesn't that sound mechanical? Does that seem like free will? It seems like free will is just solving this calculus equation.

Gurdjieff says there's a way out of this. That there are moments when you can escape this inner slavery. Moments when your actions aren't mechanically dictated by external circumstances. With work, with awareness of the internal world, with "conscious labor and intentional suffering", we can achieve brief moments of internal freedom.

And I say: I will believe it when I see it.

But I'm not dismissing it until I have walked down the path myself. If this kind of freedom is possible, I want to taste it.




I believe it now. It's possible to have a moment of genuine free will.


It's only possible when you've brought about a contact between your conscious and unconscious parts.


Eventually, the limb-sensing exercise becomes a map to that place. In this place, in the inner circle of self, you can become momentarily free of the mechanical influences of the material world (behavioral conditioning ... stimulus & response).

Once you are outside of the ego, your actions can originate from something else.

(a voice in the distance whispers the word "reality"
another voice goes "shhhhhh")






Joseph Campbell talks about Holiness as the thing which bridges the higher and lower worlds, it is the neutral force between up and down.  The Holy Grail (https://www.sarahlawrence.edu/magazine/lost-found/features/holy-grail.html), to me, is the correspondence between microcosm and macrocosm. The laws of the inner world and the laws of the universe are the same.

The universe is the big jazz chaos, the AUM mantra. We're just one of the sounds inside of it. But if you sit for long enough, you lose the sense of that sound, you hear the whole composition. Being able to act on behalf of that composition, rather than the instrument in your hands, is holy.




Years ago, I had this epiphany when I noticed the dust behind my computer monitor. It occured to me that I look at this dust all the time, every day, and I never clean it! because I don't actually notice it.

How do we notice these things which are around us all the time, but are occluded by our daily rhythms and the way we choose to distribute our attention?

You need a Shock. I thought, once, that I could build these Shocks into my daily life as a routine. Every other Wednesday, I'd take 2 hours to do something different. And that novelty would allow me to return to the rhythm with fresh eyes, finally sensing the dust behind the monitor -- and also the unnoticed dust behind everything in my life.


This is why the Bible says you must remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. It means you need a break from your life, to go away and return. Because only then can you overcome the ego which drives everyday life and act in service to the higher world - this bigger picture is invisible unless you can step outside of the everyday rhythm and see it for what it is. The Old Testament also tells farmers they should let 1/7th of their fields lay fallow every season. This allows the soil time to regenerate, ensures the long term life of the farm. All things must rest so that they may again awaken.

Madame de Salzmann says that ordering your life so as to create the conditions for this awareness is sacred. In the Gurdjieff work, we don't casually throw around words like Holy and Sacred, they have so much baggage...  But now I understand what it means.



If you exercise every day, you may observe incremental change. But every so often, you can look back and notice how far you've come since the beginning. Right now I'm noticing how far I've come since I started this Work. And I've realized that I was doing the Work before I learned about Gurdjieff. (my Fractal Cult art project / cabal was part of it too.) A moment of ego death is holy. I can now recognize that I may have had a few flickering moments of free will during my life. And I am preparing myself to have one intentionally.  To experience free will, consciously, is like being born again.

Gurdjieff observed as a child that Yazidis were unable to step out of a circle traced around them on the ground. We are all like this, the circle is ego, behavioral conditioning, association, stimulus & response, culture, dogma, good and evil---the circle is the womb.

Free will is also possible if you are a dumbass.  I know this, because I am an utter dumbass and I engage in free will all the time.  The Buddhists call this "no mind", IIRC, though with me it's "no brain".  Overthinking things will often lead your head directly up your ass.

Consider: I have been a dumbfuck my entire life, but I have a great family life, a good job that interests me, and I am happier more than what would normally be called reasonable.  And all of this without once worrying whether or not I am robotic or not.  The wind whistles between my ears, Cram, and I like it this way.  Also, I didn't have to murder my ego.  It's along for the ride.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on October 04, 2018, 05:06:55 PM
I wouldn't know what to do with free will if I had it.
What do you do with free will, anyway?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 05:14:19 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on October 04, 2018, 05:06:55 PM
I wouldn't know what to do with free will if I had it.
What do you do with free will, anyway?

That's an excellent question, come to think of it.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 05:16:48 PM
I'd like to make it clear that I am neither mocking nor disagreeing with Cram. 

I just have a question concerning free will and "ego death".
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 04, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
Free will is also possible if you are a dumbass.  I know this, because I am an utter dumbass and I engage in free will all the time.  The Buddhists call this "no mind", IIRC, though with me it's "no brain".  Overthinking things will often lead your head directly up your ass.

Consider: I have been a dumbfuck my entire life, but I have a great family life, a good job that interests me, and I am happier more than what would normally be called reasonable.  And all of this without once worrying whether or not I am robotic or not.  The wind whistles between my ears, Cram, and I like it this way.  Also, I didn't have to murder my ego.  It's along for the ride.

The way of the monk is one of the "three traditional ways" (to which the Gurdjieff work is the fourth). Gurdjieff said the difficulty is that the monk practices overcoming desire while in the monastery, but as soon as they come down off the mountain, they're back in the world of Love and Hate, Approach and Avoid - and therefore their actions are determined by external circumstances.

The monk attains inner freedom by halting their judgments, seeing the world (the raw chaos) without attaching our subjective little labels of "good" and "bad", "order" and "disorder". But then the car splashes cold water all over them and they say "this fuckin sucks"--and immediately become a slave again.


Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on October 04, 2018, 05:06:55 PM
I wouldn't know what to do with free will if I had it.
What do you do with free will, anyway?


you do what's needed

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 05:20:49 PM
That question is this:  "If robotic or suspected robotic behavior gets you through you life happily and successfully, then to what purpose is free will and ego death except the promotion of the ego that you're trying to separate yourself from?"

I don't mean ego in the popular sense of the word, but rather the psychological sense of the word.  Assuming that someone is genuine about this, it's still a service to that person's ego.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 05:24:24 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 04, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
The way of the monk is one of the "three traditional ways" (to which the Gurdjieff work is the fourth). Gurdjieff said the difficulty is that the monk practices overcoming desire while in the monastery, but as soon as they come down off the mountain, they're back in the world of Love and Hate, Approach and Avoid - and therefore their actions are determined by external circumstances.

The monk attains inner freedom by halting their judgments, seeing the world (the raw chaos) without attaching our subjective little labels of "good" and "bad", "order" and "disorder". But then the car splashes cold water all over them and they say "this fuckin sucks"--and immediately become a slave again.

Slavery implies a master.  To whom am I enslaved, assuming I am rampaging through the world without concern for their speed limits and their stop signs and their "gravity"? 



(note to self: address gravity issue on home machine tonight)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 04, 2018, 05:47:41 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 05:20:49 PM
That question is this:  "If robotic or suspected robotic behavior gets you through you life happily and successfully, then to what purpose is free will and ego death except the promotion of the ego that you're trying to separate yourself from?"

I don't mean ego in the popular sense of the word, but rather the psychological sense of the word.  Assuming that someone is genuine about this, it's still a service to that person's ego.

Happiness and success is a fine goal, it does not require inner freedom. Plenty of people are fully satisfied with life without getting into any of this. And for a lot of people, inner freedom leads to misery.

There is a whole commerical cargo cult around selling meditation techniques and mindfulness as a key to productivity - to me, this misses the point entirely. Nowhere in this body of work do they say that Consciousness* is a tool to achieve happiness or prosperity. I've found that "spirituality" is not calming, but upsetting and disturbing (https://66.media.tumblr.com/583fa08d8f2ddeec1e093ad363e11151/tumblr_ouqkmu6Pbi1roo64to1_500.png).

Talking about the impossibility of not serving the ego... it reminds me of our old discussions about how there's no such thing as "white magic", everything you can do serves the self in some way. This is the ego trap: the everyday mind can only consider things in terms of what rewards they offer to it. The ego cannot comprehend a truly selfless act, it just doesn't work that way.

This is why Gurdjieff reccommended that people practice generosity.. but in secret.




QuoteSlavery implies a master.  To whom am I enslaved, assuming I am rampaging through the world without concern for their speed limits and their stop signs and their "gravity"? 

external circumstances &
the law of accident
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 05:51:15 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 04, 2018, 05:47:41 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2018, 05:20:49 PM
That question is this:  "If robotic or suspected robotic behavior gets you through you life happily and successfully, then to what purpose is free will and ego death except the promotion of the ego that you're trying to separate yourself from?"

I don't mean ego in the popular sense of the word, but rather the psychological sense of the word.  Assuming that someone is genuine about this, it's still a service to that person's ego.

Happiness and success is a fine goal, it does not require inner freedom. Plenty of people are fully satisfied with life without getting into any of this. And for a lot of people, inner freedom leads to misery.

There is a whole commerical cargo cult around selling meditation techniques and mindfulness as a key to productivity - to me, this misses the point entirely. Nowhere in this body of work do they say that Consciousness* is a tool to achieve happiness or prosperity. I've found that "spirituality" is not calming, but upsetting and disturbing (https://66.media.tumblr.com/583fa08d8f2ddeec1e093ad363e11151/tumblr_ouqkmu6Pbi1roo64to1_500.png).

Talking about the impossibility of not serving the ego... it reminds me of our old discussions about how there's no such thing as "white magic", everything you can do serves the self in some way. This is the ego trap: the everyday mind can only consider things in terms of what rewards they offer to it. The ego cannot comprehend a truly selfless act, it just doesn't work that way.

This is why Gurdjieff reccommended that people practice generosity.. but in secret.

This is true, even altruism itself is a survival trait.




Quote
QuoteSlavery implies a master.  To whom am I enslaved, assuming I am rampaging through the world without concern for their speed limits and their stop signs and their "gravity"? 

external circumstances &
the law of accident

You can't get out of the universe alive.

I mean, not yet.  We're working on that.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 05, 2018, 04:06:40 AM
I don't have time to type a thousand words, so I'll use a pic. 

Be that guy.

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43023805_2208075309472883_7948919231402213376_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&oh=53e61da21a7cd3f03f3cf2b2a62e959f&oe=5C56F2F1)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 11, 2018, 02:59:04 PM
just as a coda to this:

QuoteTalking about the impossibility of not serving the ego... it reminds me of our old discussions about how there's no such thing as "white magic", everything you can do serves the self in some way. This is the ego trap: the everyday mind can only consider things in terms of what rewards they offer to it. The ego cannot comprehend a truly selfless act, it just doesn't work that way.

I didn't think this particular jailbreak was possible. You will find plenty of places on this forum where I deny the possibility of free will--after all, we are slaves to tastes, desires, fears, the melioration principle.

But my mind has changed. Disciplined self observation, and the brief moments of ego death I've experienced, serve as fuel for this ... alchemical change.  I do think an act of free will is possible--and it's possible to be truly altruistic--but it's very difficult and requires "fuel".

Quote from: Roger Asks...to what purpose is free will and ego death except the promotion of the ego that you're trying to separate yourself from?

The short answer to this question is that the self isn't actually the ego.

In the moments when I can wrap my head around that, I gain degrees of freedom.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on October 11, 2018, 03:22:24 PM
When you get some time, would you mind expanding on the self not being the ego?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 11, 2018, 03:33:47 PM
I started Movement classes last night. If you'll recall, the Sacred Movements are one of the things which originally got me interested in studying the Gurdjieff work.

It's a commitment - learning the movements will take a full year of Wednesday night classes. And it's a challenge to get there. The classes are in Manhattan at 9 PM, so I've gotta take an hour long train into the city, wait around for an hour, do the class, and then race for another hour long train ride home. If I miss that second train, there's another 45 minutes of waiting tacked on. So now I'm giving up two nights per week to Mr. Gurdjieff, and the rest of my life rankles at the sacrifice.

After complaining about this, the teacher said to me "Maybe this isn't the right year to do it."

On some level, I was hoping she'd convince me, but she so easily let it drop. They're really not forcing anything. The desire to attend has to come from the self, or it will erode.



The class began at 9 PM in the upper floor of the Gurdjieff Foundation. The Movements have an aura of secrecy... No one has ever told us what takes place here, anything I've said about the Movements has been my own conclusions based on the fragments I've observed. We got changed into movement clothes (that is, clothes that are easy to move in, not some sacred-movement-specific uniform) and stood on a large Enneagram painted on the floor.

I expected some discussion, some explanation, some background... but there wasn't anything like that. We just began. Our teacher started by arranging us into a circle, and had us all raise our right hand to eye level. We practiced doing it in sync, feeling the shared energy -- as if it's not us individually moving, but the group moving.

After a few similar movements, she arranged us into rows and columns. We practiced different movement routines. All of them require a lot of concentration and attention. I have no grounding in theater or dance, so remembering a sequence of body movements is very difficult for me. I found myself frustrated and chagrinned. I tried not to identify with that feeling, so that I could use it as fuel for Being. When one is challenged, one must work through the frustration.

The music helps. The piano player brings us to another world.


Last summer, I wrote about a concentration exercise they gave us... As you walk, you count each step your right foot makes, from 1 to 50. And meanwhile, with your left foot, you're counting each step down from 100 to 50. Eventually they meet in the middle. The feeling of this exercise is like two cogs in the mind acting independantly. Eventually, something appears between them.

A lot of the movements felt like that. You're trying to repeat a series of steps which is 8 beats long. Meanwhile, you're repeating a series of motions with your arms that is 6 beats long. They do not sync up. Your habitual-mind tries to memorize the pattern, and fails. Through repetition, you eventually just start doing it. I couldn't explain what I was doing, but my body seemed to know.


One of Gurdjieff's explanations of Self is the "carriage metaphor".

There's a carriage (the body), a horse (the emotions), and a driver (the mind). They're all connected to each other. They all "speak" different languages. The carriage can't move without the horse, the horse will do its own thing without the driver, and the driver needs to convince the horse to move the right way. The driver must also groom and take care of the horse. But this group is missing something--the master. The master tells the driver where to go (if they understand each other).

The master can't talk to the horse or the carriage, they don't speak the same language.

There is the potential for this group to act harmoniously, not resisting one another, but to coordinate and arrive at a destination intentionally--that is to say, non-accidentally. Not just based on the momentary whims of the driver, the meanderings of the horse, or the limitations of the carriage.



When we began the movements, I expected an explanation. I expected the teacher to talk to the driver (my intellect) and let him know where to lead. But she ignored him. She was talking to the horse and the carriage. The movements are a kind of language. There is meaning encoded in them. I could explain this here, in text, but I don't think it would actually be conveyed.

At the end of the class, I didn't feel like I had learned or mastered anything. I didn't feel any differently. I was actually really frustrated at my inability to learn the steps and keep in sync with the group. But I'm going to keep trying.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 11, 2018, 04:11:41 PM
Quote from: Hoopla! on October 11, 2018, 03:22:24 PM
When you get some time, would you mind expanding on the self not being the ego?

It's very difficult to put into words. Talking about it doesn't do it justice. I will not be able to communicate it in writing, it won't make sense to you unless you experience it yourself. So I apologize that this is might sound like woo woo nonsense, (the truth that can be spoken is not the eternal truth...) but maybe I can lay a few fingertips on the elephant.

William James says it like this: the mind is just a fragment of the overmind.

I can say that this Truth (and I am comfortable using the capital-T there) is accessible through a few different traditions.  It's available via zen meditation. It's present in the AUM meditation. All genuine mystical experiences reflect it too. Most Gnostic traditions draw from it. It is quintessential, ancient.




In the brief (sacred) moments of ego death I've experienced, there is an awareness that there is this electric spark animating me. It's the organizing principle behind my thoughts. It's present in every voluntary act and motion. And it's ancient, like, as old as cellular life. That first cell, way back in the beginning, with its primordial desire to survive, was the first particle of consciousness. Each living being has passed the spark on to its descendants, like a torch lighting another torch, since the dawn of organic life on earth.

The brain is the CPU, the spark I'm talking about is the electricity inside of it. That electricity is not ours, it's given to us. It's something we share. It's the true self. Hidden away, drowned out, inaudible amidst the cacophonous order and disorder of everyday life.




In the Gurdjieff work, there's a listening exercise. Listen to the world around you. Don't use your intellect, separating and labeling these different sounds. Listen to it as if it's not individual instruments, but one harmonious piece of music.

Eventually, I develop an awareness that the self is one of these instruments, and lose it in the exchange of figure/ground. The ego is the instrument, the self is the music.

We Discordians describe this music as 'Primal Chaos'. The raw universe exists outside of our petty preferences and labels  like Order and Disorder. This is what it means to see Chaos, the raw unformed stuff of the cosmos. It is what it is. We're all just toys that the Eternal plays with.

Quote from: The Rubiyaat of Omar KhayyamLife is a checkerboard of nights and days
Where Destiny with men for pieces plays:
Hither and thither moves, mates, checks, and slays,
And one by one back in the closet lays."
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2018, 04:16:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla! on October 11, 2018, 03:22:24 PM
When you get some time, would you mind expanding on the self not being the ego?

I'm not Cram, but I think it's basically the Higher Guardian Angel concept from Crowley, which I believe you're probably familiar with.

The self is the "true self", the highest expression of your being and nature, whereas the ego is essentially selfish and base desires that have been rationalised.  Freud likened the ego to a man riding a powerful horse, guiding it in the directions he wishes to travel.  But the horse acts on the rider as much as the rider does on the horse...it sets a path that the rider then has to correct or work around.  The true self would be liberated from these constraints.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Faust on October 11, 2018, 04:27:52 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on October 11, 2018, 03:33:47 PM

After a few similar movements, she arranged us into rows and columns. We practiced different movement routines. All of them require a lot of concentration and attention. I have no grounding in theater or dance, so remembering a sequence of body movements is very difficult for me. I found myself frustrated and chagrinned. I tried not to identify with that feeling, so that I could use it as fuel for Being. When one is challenged, one must work through the frustration.

The music helps. The piano player brings us to another world.
So they are inducing you into hypnotic trance and training your bodies to be acrobatic and flexible. Maybe it's grossly offensive to say, but if you start going all Manchurian candidate on us, losing time, disappearances of political and industry figures in the newspapers, I am calling it now.

Quote from: Cramulus on October 11, 2018, 03:33:47 PM
One of Gurdjieff's explanations of Self is the "carriage metaphor".

There's a carriage (the body), a horse (the emotions), and a driver (the mind). They're all connected to each other. They all "speak" different languages. The carriage can't move without the horse, the horse will do its own thing without the driver, and the driver needs to convince the horse to move the right way. The driver must also groom and take care of the horse. But this group is missing something--the master. The master tells the driver where to go (if they understand each other).

The master can't talk to the horse or the carriage, they don't speak the same language.
I really like this metaphor, especially the driver and the carriage, the horse is the only part that is hazy to me. If you calm the emotions and get them to be driven by your will, is it still the horse that is propelling the carriage, is emotion the only thing propelling the carriage, could memory be another horse, it is that something that can set off emotion in conflict with the driver? 

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 11, 2018, 05:31:36 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 11, 2018, 04:27:52 PM
So they are inducing you into hypnotic trance and training your bodies to be acrobatic and flexible. Maybe it's grossly offensive to say, but if you start going all Manchurian candidate on us, losing time, disappearances of political and industry figures in the newspapers, I am calling it now.

I told you guys I was losing my shit, and none of you stopped me, so I hold all of you responsible for the assassinations to come.

QuoteI really like this metaphor, especially the driver and the carriage, the horse is the only part that is hazy to me. If you calm the emotions and get them to be driven by your will, is it still the horse that is propelling the carriage, is emotion the only thing propelling the carriage, could memory be another horse, it is that something that can set off emotion in conflict with the driver?

All the parts have friction until they learn how to work together. It's difficult to coordinate them because are independant and speak different languages. If they work together, they are a harmonious whole.

A more concrete example of this can be found in the body's tension. The body is like its own brain, it processes inputs in its own way. When it gets cold, it shivers. When it's hot, it sweats. Sometimes it gets sent data from the emotional brain -- it tries to process these data, but its only able to work in its own way. This is one way of looking at how emotions manifest as muscle tension. Your body is trying to work through these emotions but all it knows how to do is squeeze.

In a properly organized human,
   the emotional-brain processes the emotions and
   the intellectual-brain processes ideas and
   the body-brain processes physical inputs.

By default, these inputs are all crossed up. We try (and fail) to rationalize our way through emotional problems, our emotions suck at solving intellectual problems, and your body wastes a lot of your energy working on the wrong stuff all the time.

This is why (for a lot of things) you do your best work when you're relaxed. Muscle tension is a waste of energy--releasing it is a small way of reorganizing the work being done.



To answer your question about memory - in this model, memory is not a processor (ie another horse), it is material that gets used in a process. Like, I'm deciding where to get dinner - my memories are fuel for the emotional calculus, intellectual calculus, and physical calculus which results in a decision.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Ziegejunge on October 11, 2018, 07:15:55 PM
As always, Cram, thanks so much for sharing these ideas and experiences with us. The metaphor of the Carriage here, in particular, resonated with me strongly. I haven't been attending properly to my emotions for a while now, instead favoring my mind/intellect and body. Frankly, it's taking a toll holistically and I need to start rectifying things.

Time for some changes, and I appreciate your role as a catalyst in helping me realize that.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on October 11, 2018, 07:46:11 PM
I'm not sure where this is going, but as a drummer and a dancer, you're learning "isolations".  The brain can separate body movements 'independently'.  Of course, the brain is doing all the work, but it's now in charge of independent conscious movements, in the same way it's in charge of independent unconscious movements.

It's not conceptually hard, as we walk and use our cell phones without thinking about how the brain is doing both of them without a hitch.  But when we try to force it along a pattern its not used to, sure.

But I can move all my limbs independently to play a beat, and I used to be able to follow intricate choreography that literally called for the left hand not knowing what the right is doing, so I can't wait for the next lesson.




Also, I need to point out that you're only spending 52 hours on this movement class.  That's hardly anything when it comes to training the body for physical movement.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Bu🤠ns on October 12, 2018, 02:58:33 AM
It reminds me of how sport teams learn to operate efficiently. In say, football for example, you run plays over and over again, you tend to eventually forget the specifics of the play an you just -do it-.  When i was a server, I'd get into a habit of tossing a rolled up wad of paper or something and toss it into a trash can from afar.  I learned that I was most accurate when I stopped 'trying' to make a basket but just tossing the wad without thinking...without lining it up and all the details associated with it. My body had a feel for it better than my mind did.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: rong on October 12, 2018, 06:17:33 AM
what you are talking about reminds me of playing syncopated music on a guitar (mississippi john hurt) or piano (scott joplin) 

the thumb and fingers (on the guitar) or the left and right hand (on the piano) play completely* independent rhythms.  it is very challenging to learn and you have to be in the right state of mind to play it.  you can't pay too much attention to either melody or you will lose the other.  it becomes easier when it feels like you are listening to someone else play it.

edit: i guess they're not completely different, as they follow the same tempo, but they're certainly very independent.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 12, 2018, 02:35:38 PM
Quote from: 1924, 'Gurdjieff's early talks'Sacred dances have always been one of the vital subjects taught in esoteric schools of the East. They have a double aim: they contain and express a certain form of knowledge and at the same time serve as a means to acquire an harmonious state of being. The combination of unnatural movements helps to obtain certain qualities of sensation, various degrees of concentration as well as the directing of thought and senses.

This dancing has another meaning than we are accustomed to. Ancient dance was a branch of art, and in ancient time art served the purpose of higher knowledge and religion. Knowledge was expressed in works of art, particularly in dances, just as today we give out our wisdom through books. Thus ancient sacred dance is not only an aesthetic experience but a book containing a definite piece of knowledge. Yet a book that not everyone can read who would, which not everyone can read who will.

The Sacred Movements aren't just about body movement or concentration, though that's a big part of it. The movements themselves contain knowledge. I get the sense that concentrating on two different rhythms at once is kinda like learning how to hold the pencil. We haven't even gotten to the alphabet yet.

There were a few movements for which we were given a specific meaning.

In one movement, we were told to express "up". When you get into the posture, your shoulders should rise, your hips should rise, your eyes should rise. And when you take that step, try to "go up" with your entire being.

Another movement was a bold step forward. We were told to put our entire being into this step. As if to say I AM HERE. While we made this step, the instructor reminded us to feel our presence in the world, where are we? when is it? what's happening right now?

In one movement, we held our hands straight up in the air, hands pointed vertically, parallel to each other. Our teacher said that when we do this, we should think of it as trying to connect to The Above. Using that as a key, it helped me understand the meaning of a few related movements. After the vertical, you recenter yourself, and then reach out left and right, arms parallel to the ground, straight, horizontal, the earth. Then you recenter yourself. In the next motion, you point forward, one arm at a time.

It felt like establishing coordinates. Here I Am in 4 Dimensions. This "meaning" was not given by the instructor, I inferred it myself -- which gives it a different quality than something you are given. While we're doing this, we're chanting.

Gurdjieff's version of "prayer" is not devotional (Praise God!), and it's not transactional (Dear Santa!). It's about focusing oneself on a goal. The one you're addressing is the inner self. You intone a phrase, focusing entirely on each word and the meaning of that specific word.

I AM (think about who you are, your presence in the world, and as the word vibrates in your throat, FEEL that self)
I WISH (feel desire, the feeling of wanting something, not just momentarily like a craving, but something you want in your whole being)
I CAN WORK (the ability to struggle past difficulty, to overcome the machine... the feeling of being a person who can overcome)


There was a movie called "Meetins with Remarkable Men", made in the 70s, based on the Gurdjieff book of the same name. You can find it on youtube. Towards the end, young Gurdjieff is in the mythical Sarmoung monastery and is being shown the sacred movements: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVgLNo6ZMX4&t=1h36m14s

He asks: What is the real meaning of these movements?
The master answers: They tell us of two qualities of energy moving without interruption throughout the body. As long as the dancer can keep in balance these two energies, he has a force that nothing else can give.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 18, 2018, 08:33:33 PM
At the meeting on Tuesday, we discussed one of Gurdjieff's opinions about child rearing.

In typical Gurdjieff fashion (ie absurd absolutist statements) he said "You should never praise children."

What he means is that when you praise a child for doing something, the information "goes to the wrong place." It's best if our actions are independant of the opinions of others, we should do things (or refrain from doing things) because in our hearts, we believe it's right. So when you raise a child using a lot "that's good" and "that's bad", implicit in the signal is that they're working for your approval. This grows into an adult that works for others but does not have his own center of action.

Gurdjieff would say that it's better to say something like "You did it! Doesn't that feel good?"

I can relate to this personally.. When I was 8 or 9 years old, there was this school fair. There was a game where you could pick a lollypop, and if you pulled a lolly with a red dot on the bottom of the stick, you won--and could pick another one. I figured out some way of cheating - like waiting until the adult was looking the other way, then peeking. I spent all my tickets there, cheating up a storm. When we got home with my huge bag of lollypops, I told my mom how I did it.

All she said was "How did it make you feel?"

I still remember that, turning inward... understanding...




The movement class this week was much better. Becuase a lot of the class built on movements from the previous class, I had a lot easier time getting in sync with everybody.

There was a very powerful moment, where I was in a trance - or maybe what I was feeling was the absence of trance - mind focused like a laser, emotions quiet, body moving perfectly in sync...

It was a different way of being. Like nothing that happens in everyday life.


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Frontside Back on October 20, 2018, 08:23:50 AM
I had a thought, probably due to reading these.

Free will is something that is exercised when you don't know what is the best choice.
With perfect knowledge human being could navigate through his life always taking the best,
most fulfilling option every time they're presented with choice.
Like how particles choose to follow straight path, because changing the course would lose energy
and therefore shorten their lifespan.

More we see into the future,
more we see the consequences of our actions,
more we are bound to follow the path of least resistance.

That's why science has felt sinister to me for a while.
It ends up abstracting people,
first as cells in the body of the machine,
then some chemistry that fuels the planetary consciousness,
weird particles that speed around the interplanetary space,
and some strange interaction between stars
until we ultimately fade out into the background noise.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: minuspace on October 21, 2018, 04:10:05 AM


The future is not something into which we can see.
The future is that which allows me to to think 'I can',
In the first place
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: minuspace on October 21, 2018, 04:25:12 AM
QuoteIn typical Gurdjieff fashion (ie absurd absolutist statements) he said "You should never praise children."

Statistically, this is the correct form of conditioning given how performance should be expected to decline after any 'exceptionally positive' incident worthy of praise.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 22, 2018, 01:39:09 PM
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/d15b63c392f7fe1b21004fc6338b9f84/tumblr_mmllly8nED1rhegcjo2_500.jpg)


Quote from: Frontside Back on October 20, 2018, 08:23:50 AM
Free will is something that is exercised when you don't know what is the best choice.
With perfect knowledge human being could navigate through his life always taking the best,
most fulfilling option every time they're presented with choice.

When we can apply a heuristic to a decision, the outcome presents itself automatically

performing a function                 f(n)
always feels like you made a choice


QuoteThat's why science has felt sinister to me for a while.
It ends up abstracting people,
first as cells in the body of the machine,
then some chemistry that fuels the planetary consciousness,
weird particles that speed around the interplanetary space,
and some strange interaction between stars
until we ultimately fade out into the background noise.


Down here in the Everyday, on the sidewalk, the vast cosmic process is invisible.

To me, the recognition of the larger identity, the larger process, to which my ego is a component --- is humbling. Awesome.

Carl Sagan entered through the "third way", that is, viewing the Big Picture using the intellect. He said "we are made of star stuff",  "We are the universe attempting to know itself". Yes, this view it collapses the individual into little particles in a rolling sea of quantum foam. But it isn't sinister, is it? That's just how it is.





Consciousness is a powerful substance. Like soap cutting through oil... it only takes a little bit.


If it's happening down here, there's potential for it to happen up there.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on November 15, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
I've hit a wall of some sort... In the work, we call it an "Interval". This refers a point where things might continue forward as planned, or veer off in another direction. The key is to approach the interval consciously, because if you let yourself be steered by circumstance alone, you will end up betraying your original aim. Or maybe you need to drop the original aim, that's the proper way to proceed - you have to make that decision yourself.

The wall is this Movements class. I've been going on Wednesday nights. And I'm finding myself frustrated, it's chewing up my energy and spitting it out undigested. The frustration stems from a few things:

1. The commute. The class is from 9 til 10 PM. At that hour, the trains are only running intermittently, so I've gotta choose.. If I leave my house at 7:45, I can get to the class at about 9:05 PM, missing the first 5 minutes. If I leave the house at 7:00, I get there about 40 minutes early and just have to bum around manhattan in the cold.

And if the class breaks on time, then I can get home by 11:15. Last night, it went like 3 minutes over, resulting in a missed train, resulting in me not getting home until midnight. Now don't get me wrong, I know how to enjoy myself on a commute, got a lot of reading done. But it's really draining my energy to spend basically 2-4 hours (and $25) in commute every week for a 1 hour class.

2. I'm having a lot of trouble following the movements. The instructor will give us a series of motions, and then we do them as a group. Sometimes I can't see or hear the instructions, or didn't get it on the first try. Then, for the next 10 minutes, I'm tripping over myself trying to stay in sync with everybody. The movements are additive, we learn a few, then we add another layer onto them, then we add another layer onto them, until it's this very complex and precise series of motions and rhythms. And if I didn't get the first steps, I just stumble through the rest - it's like a house being built on a weak foundation.

I feel like I'm just not good at it, I'm uncoordinated and have trouble following/remembering each step. Instead of feeling harmonious, in sync with the others both physically and mentally, I'm never getting over the top of the hill to where it feels comfortable. By the end of the class, I don't know if this is how I'm supposed to feel, but I'm drained, exhausted. Not exhausted like "wow, I really worked up a sweat today, got some work done", but exhausted like "that was a lot of effort and I don't think I got anything out of it."

A friend that practices ecstatic dance says that these things aren't about being in sync with the outside world, they're about building a space inside of yourself. I have not been able to build that space.

3. I'm craving an explanation. I mentioned how it seems like they want us to discover / infer / build the meaning ourselves, they are not really telling us a lot about the movements or what they accomplish. And I understand this. Knowledge given to you is not as solid as knowledge you build yourself. But after about 6 classes, I haven't built much. I don't know what these motions accomplish. And I don't think they're going to tell us. How is this "self work"? How does this help consciousness emerge? How is Esoteric Simon Says better than me sitting in a room for an hour doing the limb sensing exercise, or staying present during a conversation?

The weekly meetings, where we talk in a group about our experiments in awareness -- I've found them really helpful, productive, stimulating. I can sense that I am more awake now than I was a year ago. I'm better able to sense the difference between awake and asleep, and have some tools to make myself present.

The sacred movements, on the other hand, have not affected by day to day life. Are they supposed to? Will they, one day? I really don't know. And without some undestanding of what the goal is, I cannot commit to a full year of these classes.

So I'm done. I'm dropping the movement class. It pains me, because it's part of what interested me in the Gurdjieff work to begin with. When I watch the movements, I'm in awe of them. The dancers seem so present, in a higher state of awareness. But I have not had that experience.




As an aside, I'm thinking about some of the stuff I was being careful about in the beginning, like the potential that the Fourth Way is a predatory cult. I haven't talked to my instructor yet about dropping the classes. I do not expect to meet any resistance - last time I mentioned to her that getting to the classes has been a real sacrifice for me, she suggested that maybe it isn't the right year to start.

Hail Eris. I'm focusing on those words right now--they give me power. I told you guys months ago, if I get in too far, Eris will save me.

Eris will allow me to quit, to change gears, to banish with laughter. Eris is the gate to not taking all that shit so seriously, letting it bog me down, letting my identity get twisted around something that isn't nourishing me. Because maybe it's all bullshit, maybe it's just a silly hat I'm trying on as part of a Reality Safari.


In terms of "the interval", maybe this Discordian energy (in particular: curiosity, freedom, self discovery) is what I should embody as I approach the gap.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 15, 2018, 04:03:59 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 15, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
I told you guys months ago, if I get in too far, Eris will save me.

I am trying to find one smidgen of text in ANY work about Eris, ancient or contemporary, that would back that statement up.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on November 15, 2018, 04:12:48 PM
Chao Te Ching Verse 51:

QuoteIf you want to be serious,
don't take yourself seriously.
Be open to change,
and bold enough to be the butt of the joke.

When you walk with total certainty,
your head high
like a cosmic schmuck,
you are vulnerable to the old banana peel shtick.

When a schmuck slips,
their face becomes red with embarrassment.
Eris showed them what they did not perceive.
And, be honest, it was funny.

My Discordia's about not taking myself so seriously, being able to turn on a dime, flip the table, laugh at myself, become the next Me.

The self is the messy bedroom. It gets cleaned now and then, but the mess returns. Instead of trying to end the mess forever, Discordia celebrates its return. The precondition for knowledge is ignorance. The jailbreak never ends.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 15, 2018, 06:07:22 PM
What you are describing sounds similar to the complaints I've heard from ex-Scientologists about the OTIII lessons onward. It feels like there should be A Payoff, and you're treading water to get there, trying your best to keep yourself receptive to what you've been promised, to do the work inside yourself to make it happen.

That doesn't mean there's nothing there, but you should know that this is usually the point people who stick around for years look back on and go "I really should have known then."
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Ziegejunge on November 15, 2018, 06:11:14 PM
I've been all in on your Gurdjieffian journey this entire time, and for what it's worth I believe you are doing the right thing. I do hope you'll consider returning to the Sacred Movements if and when you feel guided that way, but for now I tend to agree with your sentiments, and this one in particular:

"How is Esoteric Simon Says better than me sitting in a room for an hour doing the limb sensing exercise, or staying present during a conversation?"
[emphasis mine]

Maybe it is better; maybe it isn't. Maybe "better" is s subjective ingredient that is obfuscating something objectively important -- but maybe not! Maybe the "better" element is something you will discover someday, or maybe part of your discovery is that exercises like limb sensing and staying present are what you need to progress, making them indeed "better" in some subjective, possibly transient, sense.

Every individual's journey is unique, no matter how flexible and/or all-encompassing a belief system seems to be. I'm glad to see you applying Discordian elements in your approach to the Gurdjieffian path. I personally presume you're better off for it, and that it will ultimately aid your continued personal growth, development, and exploration.

But what do I know?!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on November 15, 2018, 06:41:04 PM
QuoteBut it's really draining my energy to spend basically 2-4 hours (and $25) in commute every week for a 1 hour class.


I think this is a really sensible thing to say.  I think the movements might open up a way of thinking/seeing, but it looks to me like the potential is getting swamped by "IRL stuff". 

You can take up the movements at a time that is more agreeable to your life.  Forcing it like this is bound to lead to frustration and abandonment.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on November 15, 2018, 06:48:17 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 15, 2018, 06:41:04 PM
QuoteBut it's really draining my energy to spend basically 2-4 hours (and $25) in commute every week for a 1 hour class.


I think this is a really sensible thing to say.  I think the movements might open up a way of thinking/seeing, but it looks to me like the potential is getting swamped by "IRL stuff". 

You can take up the movements at a time that is more agreeable to your life.  Forcing it like this is bound to lead to frustration and abandonment.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 15, 2018, 06:55:26 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 15, 2018, 04:12:48 PM
Chao Te Ching Verse 51:

QuoteIf you want to be serious,
don't take yourself seriously.
Be open to change,
and bold enough to be the butt of the joke.

When you walk with total certainty,
your head high
like a cosmic schmuck,
you are vulnerable to the old banana peel shtick.

When a schmuck slips,
their face becomes red with embarrassment.
Eris showed them what they did not perceive.
And, be honest, it was funny.

My Discordia's about not taking myself so seriously, being able to turn on a dime, flip the table, laugh at myself, become the next Me.

The self is the messy bedroom. It gets cleaned now and then, but the mess returns. Instead of trying to end the mess forever, Discordia celebrates its return. The precondition for knowledge is ignorance. The jailbreak never ends.


My Discordia is the whistling noise in my head while I poke the damn penguin, mess with bigfoot, and tell the board the plain facts.  I am not present, I have in fact called in sick for the year so I can watch stupid humans do stupid human things.  My profession is full of horror; if you try to make sense of it, you get brain bubbles.  I just bounce along in the river of chaos.  How could this be anything less than heaven, and mine the work of angels?

Buddhists have that "no mind" thing, which I can appreciate, but I have "no brain."
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on November 24, 2018, 02:20:56 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 15, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
Eris will allow me to quit, to change gears, to banish with laughter. Eris is the gate to not taking all that shit so seriously, letting it bog me down, letting my identity get twisted around something that isn't nourishing me. Because maybe it's all bullshit, maybe it's just a silly hat I'm trying on as part of a Reality Safari.
I'm gonna take the person I've been till now
Find the strength to throw it all away
Strip down to nothing at all
Become like a rose petal, blowing free
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 10, 2019, 01:26:53 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/yvltfJi.jpg)

January 13th is Gurdjieff's "Life Day" -- his birthday, but it's the day we celebrate his life. There's going to be a big ceremony at St. Martin's church, in Manhattan. This is a time of year when the Gurdjieff foundation changes gears and all its normal functions are put on hold while we prep for the big day.

I have been swamped, and haven't attended any "work days", but I did manage to squeeze in a few hours of festival prep work. The Gurdjieff foundation is crazy right now. All its normal spaces are full of projects--Murals, decorations, and other preparation for the event.

I was told that I could basically just pick a space, pick an activity, and jump in. But was steered a bit towards making the "cards". There will be a big meal, and at the end, guests will be given a little dessert box, with a card on the top - one that could later be used as a bookmark. The cards are all hand decorated. I sat at a table with a few other people, decorating cards in whatever way I wanted. But it had to be mindful, focused, intentional.

I was able to really lose myself (or find myself?) in this work. It was beautiful to me, that we would put so much effort into a tiny little detail that people might not even notice. I spent maybe 10-15 minutes per card, and it was definitely on the "quick" side. Many cards took 20+ minutes, and the goal was to make 300 of them.

Some of the other people making cards were artists and designers, and put mine to SHAME. Here are mine, which I must emphasize, look like garbage compared to some of the intricate and beautifully colored cards that were made by others:

(https://i.imgur.com/lNd8sIH.jpg)

This was my first time doing "work" side by side with other Gurdjieff people. I gotta say, it was actually really fun. It was like 2 hours of coloring while listening to piano music.



In Other News,
Next week, when they re-start, I'm going to try the Movement classes again. The long commute to get there was making it very difficult to be in the right mental space for them and I wasn't able to get anything out of them. So this time, I'm going to try driving into Manhattan, which fucking terrifies me. But it'll be 8 PM, so maybe it won't be a high stress clusterfuck of crisis-merging and bumper to mosh pit. If I can handle it, I'll be able to get to/from the class in 40 minutes, which cuts the commute time in half or less. We'll see. I'm open to it. But if this isn't the year to do the movements, that's okay too... I have a LOT on my plate this year, and if I get Wednesday night off, I would make good use of it.

This is the New Years Resolution time of year. During the holidays, our habits and patterns are suspended and it gives us a moment to reflect on the big picture. At our meeting, we were asked to take some time to reflect on our original reasons for approaching the Gurdjieff work. This is dangerous, because we may realize that "as the octave progressed, it turned from its original course". But it can also be a time of renewal and rededication.

I am very thankful for finding the work. Before, I understood my own automatism intellectually, but I don't think I had really felt it. The Gurdjieff work is helping me become more emotionally sensitive, and more in touch with my self. The practice of Self Remembering is so grounding, makes it easier to keep in touch with Who I Am and What I Should Be Doing.

It's also incredibly daunting and frustrating sometimes - not the work itself, but the recognition of how small the conscious part of me actually is. In the weeks leading up to Christmas, I was asleep, no doubt about it--just grinding away and leaping from one problem to the next and never really arriving anywhere. During the holidays, I had a few precious minutes of awakened self. I used this gift to bond with my family, my beautiful girlfriend, and talk about the future.

When I do the nameless sensing exercise in the morning--properly, not rushing through it--it changes my whole day. It gives the day the potential to be something else. I can feel my body differently, having "rebooted" those connections, and that makes me process all information differently. I've been doing zen meditation very intermittently since I was a teenager, but only rarely approached meditation in a truly disciplined way. I would use it as a de-stress technique, or just to ground myself, and sometimes I'd have a nice quiet internal experience that left me feeling refreshed. But this stuff is different. It's like warming up the car for a drive. It's like turning on a light, to read better. This is concrete, the benefits I've experienced are tangible.


Here's to the New Year, the New Me, and the New You. I am wishing everybody a year of self discovery and consciousness. This year, I hope you're able to see yourself, see the big picture, and find the avenue which connects the two.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on February 06, 2019, 04:35:59 PM
I attended a Talk at the Gurdjieff foundation last night. It resonated strongly with me and gave me lots of new material to process. The topic is the Subconscious. It's inspired by a sentence fragment from Beezlebub's Tales:

...I shall expound my thoughts intentionally in such a sequence and with such logical confrontation that the essence of certain real ideas may pass automatically from this "waking consciousness," which most people in their ignorance mistake for the real consciousness, but which I affirm and experimentally prove is the fictitious one, into what you call the "subconscious"— which in my opinion ought to be the real human consciousness...

Gurdjieff did not think that the thoughts and "mentations" which we experience in our waking life are the real deal, he thinks they are just the stuff that rises "above the surface", and the real decisions and processes are made under the surface.

Think about it: you encounter some new idea, and have an immediate reaction. Your reasoning is slow to catch up and build a justification. We construct a scaffolding of logic around our opinions and decisions, but that scaffold gets built after the fact. This is what Robert Anton Wilson refers to when he writes "Whatever the thinker thinks, the prover proves."

The Subconscious

What is it that made the initial decision? There's a part of me that I cannot access directly, and it makes all my decisions and directs my whole life. The truer self. Gurdjieff calls it the Subconscious.

Gurdjieff says that this subconcious is composed of two things: hereditary stuff, and "that which we have internalized as a result of confrontation". That is, information that you struggled to obtain, or opinions that changed based on reflection, and the rare conclusions that you reached as a result of serious consideration. These things are available to the subconscious.

(We talked earlier in this thread about the difference between knowledge and understanding, this is the same distinction... the subconscious has your understanding, but not your knowledge... understanding is produced when an idea is confronted, when you've felt its contours and weaknesses, when you've made conscious decisions about it)

And this idea, that the subconscious only has access to this data you've obtained in a deeper way, giving it life and context within you -- it gives us something to aim at. We can process things better if we have data gained from reflection and serious consideration. In discovering the self, in becoming the truer self, we must confront the data which is most difficult to process. Gurdjieff suggests dwelling on moments like times we have disappointed our parents, no matter how uncomfortable that may be to think about - these painful thoughts can crystalize into something solid within us that better guides our future actions. We flinch away from these thoughts, and that fear is part of what keeps us frozen in place.

The part of the mind above the subconscious -- Gurdjieff would call this part the "functional mind". The word Function here should be taken in the sense of an Algebraic function, or a function within computer programming: you put something in, a process is performed on it, and something comes out. Most of our reasoning works this way--we apply a series of heuristics to a thought/problem/idea, and something comes out the other side. It's automatic, procedural.

Essence and Instinct

There is a symmetry in these ideas to Gurdjieff's distinction betweeen essence and personality. Gurdjieff would say that the personality is the stuff you've acquired (through the circumstances of your life and the law of accident), and the essence is the stuff that "really belongs to you". Think about how a baby, before it's learned anything, still has a character and disposition. That's the essence. We carry it with us our entire lives. Stuff we acquire during our upbringing is built on top of that.

Both Essence and Personality are factors in our decision making and the way we relate to the outside world. It's not like Essence is Real and Personality is Fake--nothing like that. We need them both. But one is really ours, and the other is determined by the outside world.


At the talk last night, they put forward an idea that the "Instinctive Self" is beneath the surface. The part of the self that wants to live, mate, be vital... we are not really well in touch with it. I mean, sometimes I go all day without eating, completely by mistake. I ignore my intuition all the time. The instinct is a different kind of intelligence, but it gets covered up and drowned out by the everyday mind.

At the talk, they suggested that Instinct is closer to the "source" of self. And so if you become more aware of your instincts, you are building more 'true self' into your life. Properly organized, your thoughts blend with and support your instincts.

This, by the way, is the meaning of the Parable of the Bitter Tea (https://principiadiscordia.com/book/44.php).  It's about how your body already knows what's up, before your mind does. There's something in us that already knows that the tea will be bitter. We don't listen to it!



What would life be like, if our subconscious was our primary consciousness?

At various times in your life, you've experienced a moment of connecting with something deeper in yourself. It might be in overcoming some resistance, or arriving at a decision you feel good about. It might be reaching into an inner reserve, or remembering an original aim. It's a moment where you understand (or remember) who you really are. If we were better connected to our subconscious, we'd experience more of this.

It would probably not be comfortable or pleasant to live like this. Think about things which bring you back to the self: suffering, doubt, confusion... we would need to be in a state that keeps us on our toes. Living like that is exhausting. For us ordinary people, we can settle for moments of it. But it only takes a drop...


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on February 06, 2019, 04:56:46 PM
Last night, as I came home from the talk, I had a personal moment of gnosis and synchronicity which I want to record here.

I was thinking about the dichotomy between True Self and Waking Self, between the surface and that which is below... about how the stuff on the surface is made of material, impulses, desires, and the stuff beneath the surface is hidden by it, but is more true...

It perfectly aligns with the Gnostic myth - that we live in a world of material, but there is another more-true reality hidden behind it. That the god named in the bible is really the demiurge, the insane material god who thinks he is the true god. But actually he is sick, and has forgotten his own father, the spiritual source of all things. This is the human condition. This is everday life. These gods are both personal and cosmic. The demiurge is a personal force that rules the material conditions of your life, but it's a distraction, an illusion, and something else is more real.


All the talk about the Subconscious had made me remember The Hymn of The Pearl (http://gnosis.org/library/hymnpearl.htm), my favorite gnostic poem. It's a poem about a prince that goes out to recover a pearl and become heir to his kingdom, but it's also a story about each of us, and how we forget. It's about everyday life.

I decided to go back and re-read it, and it inspired me again. The Pearl of the World is hidden in the world of illusion, and when you seek it, you will get lost in that illusion. But you cannot arise from slumber, defeat the serpent, and claim the pearl until you've remembered the true self, the aim of your mother and father. 

And I finished reading the poem, and I cracked open Beezlebub's Tales to his Grandson for the first time in like six months. The page I had bookmarked, where I had stopped reading a long time ago, was about Beezlebub's journey to "Pearl Land" (also called India). It begins with a description of pearls and how our lust for them caused all this overfishing and destruction. And how these travelers went in search of new pearls, and ended up in the place we now call India.

I was intrigued by how the Pearl is the motif of the night... my mind spiraling around the question about what the pearl is to me. What is my pearl?

and as I walked back from the train station at night, through a seedy neighborhood, I came up to a spot where three big dudes were having a highly animated conversation and filling up the whole sidewalk. I experienced a moment of fear, because I knew I'd have to walk right through the middle of their conversation. And as I did it, one of the dudes was wrapping up some anecdote, saying "And he didn't go to pearl river. And she didn't go to pearl river. And this guy--" he said, point at me as I passed, "is not going to Pearl River either!" and all of them burst into crazy laughter.

I was struck dead in the chest by the coincidence. My subconscious crested up above the surface, and I remembered.

It was a miracle.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on February 28, 2019, 10:22:13 PM
Long post, sorry. This post isn't an explanation of anything, it's more of a diary of an experience I had two days ago.


I had another series of coincidences knocking into each other like dominoes, it left me reeling and questioning everything. None of them are world-shaking in of themselves, but it's rare you have a day where the hits keep coming like this, so it left me in a strange psychological space. I don't want to attach too much weight to these experiences, but I want to record them anyway.

In brief...

In the morning, I saw a FB post (https://www.facebook.com/Discordianism/posts/2319339068118488) from the guy who runs the "Discordianism" page... it is about the Black Iron Prison, and includes a graphic from the forums.. a little snippet that says

QuoteFrom the Semi Secret Order of Kaballistic Navigators
Every 1% of enlightenment generated comes with about 20% idiocy as a waste product.

this, by the way, is a nice little summary of my year.  :lol:

But it made me think about Mangrove (a guy who used to post here), and my early explorations of Kaballah, which we talked about via PM becuase the forum was too judgy about woo stuff. Brought me back to a place where I was questing, exploring, open. More on Mangrove later.

Later in the afternoon, I read this - He Was Supposed to Be the Next Stephen King. Then the Aliens Came. (https://medium.com/s/reasonable-doubt/he-was-supposed-to-be-the-next-stephen-king-then-the-aliens-came-afd7195e0b49)

This is an interview with Whitley Streiber, the author of Communion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_(book)). When I was a teen, I was really interested in UFO abduction stories... Communion plays a large role in the pop-culture image of aliens as grey big-head big-eye creatures who take you to an elevated perspective which shows you how things really are and changes your life (basically the same jungian archetype as medieval accounts of angel experiences -- see Cosmic Trigger). But I never realized that the author (whose book is based on his pereceived-real experience) did not consider them aliens, he just called them "Visitors". Anyway, reading his abduction account put me into an old mental space...

In this interview, Whitley mentions how he received this profound piece of information from the Visitors - the number 137. He unpacks how that number has its own "23 phenomenon" surrounding it. This startled me, because I, too, had an ... interest in the number 137. In fact, one of the first PMs I sent on this forum was to Mangrove, asking him if Kaballah could help me understand why I was seeing the number 137 everywhere, and how I should orient myself to this. And I know, I know --- the Law of Fives, merely seeing a number isn't meaningful in of itself.. But still, the memory echoed within me, brought me back to an earlier time.

In the next paragraph, Whitley describes the type of meditation he does:

QuoteWhat kind of meditation do you do?
I do something called the Sensing Exercise that I learned in the Gurdjieff Foundation. It's a very simple exercise to start. I've been doing it now for over 50 years and over time, you get to the point where you have sensation of more than just your physical body.

It starts with an idea, that the human attention is sacred for a very simple reason. It is the only attention on this planet that can be intentionally directed. When you place your attention on your body, it causes your nervous system to change suddenly so that you, in another level of reality, can be seen more clearly. I asked the visitors, when they first came to me, why they came. They said, "We saw a glow." After Annie died, she made it clear to me that she could see me when I was sitting in the chair doing the exercise. That was when she could see me and I realized that the glow they were talking about was the glow that comes from placing the attention on sensation.

Reading the 137 thing and the Gurdjieff Meditation thing right next to each other did something funny in my head. Suddenly, I was completely present.

At about the same time, I got a text message saying my Gurdjieff meeting was cancelled, but I was encouraged to come to a panel at the Foundation on Self Observation. This text message reminded me to observe that presence, remove myself from the awe and confusion I was experiencing, remove myself from the "that's just the law of fives / pattern detection" heuristic I automatically apply to these experiences, and just observe both from a neutral point of view.

The panel was good, gave me a lot of material to think about.

And on the way home, I flipped open this book written by John C. Lilly -- Programming and Metaprogramming the Human Biocomputer (http://nekhbet.leary.csoft.net/biocomputer.pdf).

I gotta say -- despite some of his weirder thoughts, Lilly was on some next level shit. The book is about his work in developing therapeutic procedures involving LSD in the interest of expanding consciousness. Lilly has clearly practiced the Fourth Way. The way he understands consciousness as rooted in physical experience, the way he understands the self as collective, (and component of collective) and especially the way that he uses self observation -- it's very Gurdjieffian.

Those of you who have been reading my lunatic ramblings know that I had a mystical gnostic experience that rocked my world and turned everything upside down. For the last 9 years, I've been trying to make sense of that profound moment. Part of the gnostic revelations I received had to do with the correspondence between Microcosm and Macrocosm. This is the root of my Fractal Cult (http://fractalcult.tumblr.com/tagged/fractalcore/chrono) writings and the original reason I got into the Gurdjieff work. (because I can tell he spent most of his life exploring that experience too)

The mystical experience I had is somewhat universal - it can be found in many different cultures and paths, and is well described in William James' Varieties of Mystical Experience. One of the side effects of this experience is that when someone else has had it, I can usually recognize it in their art and writings. Just by looking at a piece of art, I can usually tell if that person has been "initiated" in this way or not.

John C Lilly was initiated. In this one part of the book, he describes this series of experiments where he asked participants to consider a belief while they were tripping and suspended in a float tank. (float tanks themselves are a john c lilly concept, btw) At first, he gets them to accept the idea that travel to other universes is possible - but not through astral projection or leaving the body - the universes are inside the self.

Over the course of seven years, he asks participants to explore universes generated from these belief statements. A few parts of his belief statements have 100% correspondence to the experience I had. When I read this, I was awestruck.

QuoteBasic Belief No. 2
The subject sought beings other than himself, not human, in whom he existed and who control him and other human
beings
. Thus the subject found whole new universes containing great varieties of beings, some greater than himself,
some equal to himself, and some lesser than himself.

Those greater than himself were a set which was so huge in spacetime as to make the subject feel as a mere mote
in their sunbeam, a single microflash of energy in their time scale, my fortyfive years are but an instant in their lifetime,
a single thought in their vast computer, a mere particle in their assemblages of living cognitive units
. He felt he was in
the absolute unconscious of these beings. He experienced many more sets all so much greater than himself that
they were almost inconceivable in their complexity, size and time scales

QuoteBasic Belief No. 3
The subject assumed the existence of beings in whom humans exist and who directly control humans. This is a
tighter control program than the previous one and assumes continuous day and night, second to second, control, as
if each human being were a cell in a larger organism. Such beings insist upon activities in each human being totally
under the control of the organism of which each human being is a part. In this state there is no free will and no freedom for an individual.

This supraselfmetaprogram was entered twice by the subject; each time he had to leave it; for
him it was too anxietyprovoking. In the first case he became a part of a vast computer in which he was one element.
In the second case he was a thought in a much larger mind: being modified rapidly, flexibly and plastically.

All of the above experiments were done looking upward from the selfprogrammer to the supraselfmetaprograms. A converse set of experiments was done in which the selfmetan programmer looked downward towards
the metaprograms, the programs and the lower levels

Essentially, that each individual human is part of a superorganism, and that superorganism is an organ of a larger organism, and so forth. And furthemore, the self can be understood as a collective. In this section, Lilly also describes Gurdjieff's "self remembering" technique, and the "Ray of Creation", but in different words.

I felt like there's a message here, something is being shown to me.

It was uncanny how much the outside world reflected my inner world. Uncanny both in the sense of unusual, and the "uncanny valley".




I'm still processing all of it. But I tell you - when I finally got home, I just had to sit on the couch in silence and be with it.



In other news, I went to a Sacred Movement class last night. While at the Gurdjieff foundation building, I met Bill Murray. Really nice guy.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 08, 2019, 02:18:42 AM
What do you think about the idea that the soul is mortal? If I understand it correctly this guy believes that you must make your own soul, and that it is subjected to destruction as well as creation. Is the soul then malleable?

I see the soul is an eternal thing dipping itself into this reality to pick up experiences. The process is profoundly painful and might be akin to getting a tattoo in a sense. I think that not All Souls wake up, nor do they have to, but that everybody has one and it is not merely something one constructs or that is subject to destruction, though I think it's sort of perversion of the Soul is possible. I strongly suspect some souls, perhaps most, are trapped and highly traumatized. I often see this world as a prison or a zoo for such Souls.




PS I'm not doing all the weird capitalization. My voice recognition software seems to capitalize soul on its own at random. Weird. It does this with other things I write too.the capitalization often seems rather pointed. Just one more weird synchronicity in a whole boatload of them.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on March 08, 2019, 02:14:10 PM
I don't know what a soul is.

Gurdjieff warns that this is one of those places where our communication is impeded by a lack of common language. Ask 100 people what a soul is, you'll get, like, 75 different answers. So first, we've gotta come to an agreement about what we're talking aboutor we'll keep circling each other.



In In Search of the Miraculous, someone asks Gurdjieff about immortality and reincarnation. He says: (and I'll caution you not to take this literally)

QuoteIt is necessary to understand that man's being, both in life and after death, may be very different in quality. The 'man-machine' with whom everything depends upon external influences, with whom everything happens, who is now one, the next moment aother, and the next moment a third, has no future of any kind; he is buried and that is all. Dust returns to dust. This applies to him. In order to speak of any kind of future life there must be a certain crystalization, a certain fusion of man's inner qualities, a certain independence of external influences. If there is anything in a man able to resist external influences, then this very thing itself may be able to resist the death of the body. But think for yourselves what there is to withstand physical death in a man who faints or forgets everything when he cuts his finger? If there is anything in a man, it may survive; if there is nothing, then there is nothing to survive."

Gurdjieff seems to say that life after death is possible, but very rare. If you cut your finger and the suffering suddenly changes your being, then what would an event as traumatic as death to do our being? If some part of you lasts after you are gone, it might not be your personality, or anything tied to your physical existence. Most of what we are is marks in the sand, on a beach. One day, a wave is going to come and wash it all away. Unless you have something solid. That solidness is generated by "a friction between yes and no."

I think this is best considered in abstract terms. If Gurdjieff's soul survived his death, can we know it? When I read his writings, I can get a sense of his being. If I feel like I 'know' him, does it mean some part of him survived his bodily death, "but in a very different quality"?

Maybe what we mean by immortality is that you'll be remembered, your work will continue without your body (like, say, George Washington... his heroism and leadership, his 'eagle qualities', are baked deeply into the American identity), and what you leave behind will be solid enough that people won't twist it into something it never was (like, say, Christopher Columbus - the version of him we celebrate today is a bit far from the truth).

But who knows... some of Gurdjieff's clan believed in a more tangible immortality. Back in January, I was at this Gurdjieff Life Day celebration, and was waiting in line to get into the room. An old lady in line behind me was catching up with a friend. I overheard her say "I've been in contact with my mother...." then added, "She died seven years ago." Needless to say, I find that difficult to believe.



There's another way of thinking about the soul, which is a little closer to what you describe as an an "eternal thing dipping itself into this reality to pick up experiences": the hindu word Ātman.

The Katha Upanishad describes the Ātman as the One Fire--it dwells within our temporary forms. We pass Ātman forward from parent to child, like a torch handed down from being to being since the first organic life on earth. It wants to live, it wants to know itself, and our existence is a manifestation of that will.



I light a torch from a dying bonfire. If the bonfire burns down to ash and become still, but my torch is still lit, has the fire survived? If we keep the fire burning for ten thousand years, if we light ten million torches, that original process will have taken many forms, but they are all connected, somehow, to the same source.



In this, your question is part of something ancient, a desire to know,
a gift from who you were ten million years ago.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 08, 2019, 05:55:23 PM
I was just reading the hymn of the Pearl from a few posts back. (my software autocapitalized Pearl... Twice. Well anyway..)

I was struck by this bit and what follows after

QuoteAt once, as soon as I saw it,
The Glory looked like my own self. 

When I was much younger, how old exactly I couldn't say, I undertook a form of hermetic path work meditation. The intent of the meditation was to show you your true self. I was struck by a vision of myself but more trim, with kohl under his eyes, wearing a shirt that was brilliantly colored and shiny. He was snickering at me as though there was a joke between us that I had not understood. He still shows up from time to time in my dreams both waking and sleeping.

One time he showed me a vision of a circle divided from the center by 3 equal lines. I watched as the lines separated in the middle and the three pieces of the circle bled into each other until eventually the lines were gone entirely and the circle was whole. I was struck by an understanding that this was the act of enlightenment. The destruction of the barriers between these three parts of a human. The understanding I received was that these three parts were mind, Spirit, and body. I understood that the entire point of working in the path was to steadily dissolve these without trauma. I saw that these barriers could be shattered suddenly and traumatically producing sicknesses of mind body and spirit. I consider the spirit aspect to be the soul. The mind and body pass away, dust returning to dust, are returning to air, but that the third part remained. When the vision was over I saw the bastard again. He was grinning at me like he just explained something way over my head And was amused.

There's more but I feel like I've already said enough. The vision of my higher self never seems to speak, but is very expressive in other ways. When I see him I am often struck by understanding that I don't fully comprehend yet or I will feel an impulse, no an imperative, to write. Some of my writings and poetry here are directly from this experience. I see him again even as I write this. He appears smug and almost condescending as though he is watching a toddler doodle with crayons. I'm going to end this now but I thought I would share some of my experiences as relates to what I call 'soul'. My soul is apparently kind of a cocky prick.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 08, 2019, 06:19:35 PM
Just a note I hopped onto Facebook after I wrote that and was greeted with an image of Gritty wearing a Pearl Earring... My autocapitalize just capitalized Pearl Earring... Twice
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Johnny on March 16, 2019, 07:51:06 AM
Ehm, i was browsing wikipedia for some reasons and it seems that:

"La Montaña Sagrada es el único largometraje de ficción cuyo argumento está basado en el eneagrama de la personalidad, ideado a partir del sufismo por Georges Gurdjieff"

Which means taht Jodorowskys "The Holy Mountain" was inspired by Gurdjieff
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on March 16, 2019, 12:43:54 PM
Yes that's true. Gurdjieff's Enneagrams are all over the movie:

(https://imgur.com/6yHJpTx.jpg)

The Alchemist (who wears the Enneagram) is sitting at the end of the rainbow tunnel. The Rainbow has a special meaning within alchemy--similar to the tree of life--a journey from beginning to end. In fact, do you know why Isaac Newton described the rainbow as having seven colors? Because Newton was a spiritual alchemist first and a physicist second--he was referencing the ancient "law of octaves", which Gurdjieff calls the Law of Seven. The Enneagram is also a symbol of this. But I'm getting distracted...

(https://imgur.com/4GIbEve.jpg)

The Enneagram also appears on the table at the end of the movie, when the characters have completed their transformation.

There is a holy mountain in Beezlebub's Tales, it is a place where people go to conceive children.

But the inspiration for the film The Holy Mountain actually comes more directly from one of Gurdjieff's disciples, Rene Daumal. Speak of the devil, I'm reading Daumal's work Mount Analogue right now.

(https://imgur.com/dJRRaky.jpg)


Mount Analogue is an interesting book. Daumal was a mountain climber who also studied under Gurdjieff. In his mid 30s, he caught a terminal case of tuburculosis. No longer able to climb mountains, he decided to write a book which would help others understand the spiritual experience of the ascent. The Holy Mountain is a symbol in basically every religion -

QuoteI had written in substance that in the mythic tradition the Mountain is the bond between Earth and Sky. Its solitary summit reaches the sphere of eternity, and its base spreads out in manifold foothills into the world of mortals. It is the way by which man can raise himself to the divine, and by which the divine reveals itself to man. The patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament behold the Lord face to face in high places. For Moses it was Mount Sinai and Mount Nebo; in the New Testament it is the Mount of Olives and Golgotha.

I went so far as to discover this ancient symbol of the mountain in the pyramidal constructions of Egypt and Chaldea. Turning to the Aryans, I recalled those obscure legends of the Vedas in which the Soma - the 'nectar' which is the 'seed of immortality' - is said to reside in its luminous and subtle form 'within the mountain'. In India, the Himalayas are the dwelling place of Shiva, of his spouse 'the Daughter of the Mountain', and the 'Mothers' of all worlds, just as in Greece the king of the gods held court on Mount Olympus.

In fact it was in Greek mythology that I found the symbol completed by the story of the revolt of the children of Earth, who with their terrestrial natures and terrestrial means, attempted to scale Mount Olympus and enter Heaven on feet of clay. Was this not the same endeavour as that of the builders of the Tower of Babel, who, without renouncing their many personal ambitions, aspired to attain the kingdom of the one eternal Being? In China people have always referred to the 'Mountains of the Blessed', and the ancient sages instructed their disciples on the edge of a precipice."

Daumal died before he could finish the book; it ends mid sentence. But he put his entire being into this work, and every sentence reads as if written with firm intention.

Jodorowski's film is inspired by the book, though it is not a direct adaptation.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Johnny on March 16, 2019, 10:34:15 PM

Yeah like, the origin of my comment comes from a friend of mine reading 100 years of solitude (100 años de soledad)... her saying that it was just so lame and boring and me agreeing not from direct experience, but that i read some other book by the same author and considered it verbose trash.

But then she mentioned that The Holy Mountain, was twice as better, of what 100 years of solitude people told her it would be... to which i replied that the only good movie i think of him is Santa Sangre, but thats probably because its psychoanalitically inspired.

Anyhow, i hate Jung's stupid Nazi mystical face, but synchronizity is an interesting concept to play around with, thus my rambling.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Telarus on March 17, 2019, 08:27:52 PM
Whoa, I didn't know about Rene Daumal, thanks Cram!

On the "soma lives in the mountain" reference:

"Enyalius" is the "name of a deity" that translates to "Son of Enyo". It is actually a title bestowed on those who Enyo/Rhea gives HER secrets.

While most commonly found referring to Ares, in Myceanean times he was a separate deity - or an aspect of Dionysus, who is the other god that holds this title. Dionysus is also one of the only Greek gods shown driving a chariot pulled by cats, and this is a DEEP erisian motif that we find in depictions of Eris/Enyo/Rhea/Freya, etc.

In the below passages, the things to note are repeated references to "Rhea's milk" and the "mixing of wine":

"The grapegrowing land of Bakkhos, where the vinegod first mixed wine for Mother Rheia in a brimming cup, and named the city Kerassai, the Mixings [in Lydia]."


DO YOU MIX MODERN WINE? No. But if you are initiated into Enyo's Secrets, you know what to mix into it. Same thing you mix into milk to get "bhang", and into water with crushed ephedra twigs to get "soma". ;)

-----------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enyalius

A scholiast on Homer declares that the poet Alcman sometimes identified Ares with Enyalius and sometimes differentiated him, and that Enyalius was sometimes made the son of Ares by Enyo and sometimes the son of Cronus and Rhea.

-----------
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/DionysosMyths3.html#Kybele

DIONYSUS MENTORED BY RHEA-CYBELE
Euripides implies that Dionysos' was mentored by the great Phrygian mother-goddess Kybele in the rites of the orgia.

Euripides, Bacchae 45 ff (trans. Buckley) (Greek tragedy C5th B.C.) :
"[Dionysos :] 'You women who have left Tmolos, the bulwark of Lydia, my sacred band [of Bakkhai], whom I have brought from among the barbarians as assistants and companions to me, take your drums, native instruments of the city of the Phrygians, the invention of mother Rhea and myself."

Euripides, Bacchae 70 ff :
"Chorus of Bakkhai : From the land of Asia, having left sacred Tmolos, I am swift to perform for Bromios . . . celebrating the god Bakkhos . . . Blessed is he who, being fortunate and knowing the rites of the gods . . . and who, revering the mysteries of great mother Kybele, brandishing the thyrsos, garlanded with ivy, serves Dionysos."

Euripides, Bacchae 120 ff :
"The Korybantes [of Kybele] with triple helmet invented for me in their caves this circle [the castanet], covered with stretched hide; and in their excited revelry they mingled it with the sweet-voiced breath of Phrygian pipes and handed it over to mother Rhea, resounding with the sweet songs of the Bakkhai; nearby, raving Satyroi were fulfilling the rites of the mother goddess, and they joined it to the dances of the biennial festivals (trieteris), in which Dionysos rejoices."

Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 29 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"He [Dionysos in his youth] went to Kybela [Rhea] in Phrygia. There he was purified by Rhea [of the madness inflicted upon him by Hera] and taught the mystic rites of initiation, after which he received from her his gear and set out eagerly through Thrake." [N.B. Apollodorus is probably summarising the account of Euripides.]

The geographer Strabo also says that Dionysos received the rites of the Orgia from Kybele quoting both Pindar and Euripides, Bacchae.

Strabo, Geography 10. 3. 13 (trans. Jones) (Greek geographer C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"When Pindaros, in the dithyramb which begins with these words, 'In earlier times there marched the lay of the dithyrambs long drawn out,' mentions the hymns sung in honor of Dionysos, both the ancient and the later ones, and then, passing on from these, says, 'To perform the prelude in thy honor, Megale Meter (Great Mother), the whirling of cymbals is at hand, and among them, also, the clanging of castanets, and the torch that blazeth beneath the tawny pine-trees,' he bears witness to the common relationship between the rites exhibited in the worship of Dionysos among the Greeks and those in the worship of the Meter Theon (Mother of the Gods) [Kybele] among the Phrygians, for he makes these rites closely akin to one another.
And Euripides does likewise, in his Bakkhai, citing the Lydian usages at the same time with those of Phrygia, because of their similarity : 'But ye who left Mt. Tmolos, fortress of Lydia, revel-band of mine [Dionysos], women whom I brought from the land of barbarians as my assistants and travelling companions, uplift the tambourines native to Phrygian cities, inventions of mine and mother Rhea.'
And again, 'happy he who, blest man, initiated in the mystic rites, is pure in his life, [text missing] who, preserving the righteous Orgia (Orgies) of the great mother Kybele, and brandishing the thyrsos on high, and wreathed with ivy, doth worship Dionysos. Come, ye Bakkhai, come, ye Bakkhai, bringing down Bromios, god the child of god, out of the Phrygian mountains into the broad highways of Greece.'
And again, . . . 'the triple-crested Korybantes in their caverns invented this hide-stretched circlet [the tambourine], and blent its Bakkhic revelry with the high-pitched, sweet-sounding breath of Phrygian flutes, and in Rhea's hands placed its resounding noise, to accompany the shouts of the Bakkhai, and from Meter (Mother) Rhea frenzied Satyroi obtained it and joined it to the choral dances of the Trieterides, in whom Dionysos takes delight.'"

Nonnus in his epic Dionysiaca describing the adventures of Dionysos, provides a colourful account of the god's youth spent with Rhea. A few selected passages are quoted here:-

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 1. 20 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) :
"Bakkhos [Dionysos, as a babe] on the arm of buxom Rheia, stealthily draining the breast of the lion-breeding goddess."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 9. 136 ff :
"She [the jealous Hera] would have destroyed the son of Zeus [Dionysos still a baby in the care of the Theban princess Ino]; but Hermes caught him up, and carried him to the wooded ridge where Kybele dwelt. Moving fast, Hera ran swift-shoe on quick feet from high heaven; but he was before her, and assumed the eternal shape of first-born Phanes [one of the first born gods]. Hera in respect for the most ancient of the gods, gave him place and bowed before the radiance of the deceiving face, not knowing the borrowed shape for a fraud. So Hermes passed over the mountain tract with quicker step than hers, carrying the horned child folded in his arms, and gave it to Rheia, nurse of lions, mother of Father Zeus, and said these few words to the goddess mother of the greatest : 'Receive, goddess, a new son of your Zeus! He is to fight with the Indians, and when he has done with earth he will come into the starry sky, to the great joy of resentful Hera! Indeed it is not proper that Ino should be nurse to one whom Zeus brought forth. Let the mother of Zeus be nanny to Dionysos--mother of Zeus and nurse of her grandson!'
This said he put off the higher shape of selfborn Phanes and put on his own form again, leaving Bakkhos to grow a second time in the Meter's (Mother's) nurture.
The goddess took care of him; and while he was yet a boy, she set him to drive a car drawn by ravening lions. Within that godwelcoming courtyard, the tripping Korybantes would surround Dionysos with their childcherishing dance, and clash their swords, and strike their shields with rebounding steel in alternate movements, to conceal the growing boyhood of Dionysos; and as the boy listened to the fostering noise of the shields he grew up under the care of the Korybantes like his father.
At nine years old the youngster went a-hunting his game to the kill . . . he would hold lightly aloft stretched on his shoulders a bold fellstriped tiger unshackled, and brought in hand to show Rheia the cubs he had torn newborn from the dam's milky teats. He dragged horrible lions all alive, and clutching a couple of feet in each hand presented them to the Mother that she might yoke them to her car. Rheia looked on laughing with joy, and admired the manliness and doughty feats of young Dionysos; his father Kronion [Zeus] laughed when he saw with delighted eyes Iobakkhos driving the grim lions . . .
Often he stood in the chariot of immortal Rheia, and held the flowing reins in his tenderskin hand, and checked the nimble team of galloping lions . . . Thus he grew up beside cliffloving Rheia, yet a boy in healthy youth, mountainbred."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 9. 206 ff :
"[The apotheosed Semele addresses Hera :] 'See [the baby] Dionysos in the arms of your own mother [Rhea], he lies on that cherishing arm! The Dispenser of the eternal universe, the first sown Beginning of the gods, the Allmother, became a nurse for Bromios [Dionysos]; she offered to infant Bakkhos the breast which Zeus High and Mighty has sucked! What Kronides was ever in labour, what Rheia was ever nurse for your boy? But this Kybele [Rhea] who is called your mother brought forth Zeus and suckled Bakkhos in the same lap! She dandled them both, the son and the father.'"

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 10. 139 ff :
"Dionysos, in the latitude of Lydia's fields, grew into youthful bloom as tall as he wished, shaking the Euian gear of Rheia Kybele."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 12. 380 ff :
"To Dionysos alone had Rheia given the amethyst, which preserves the winedrinker from the tyranny of madness."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 13. 470 ff :
"The grapegrowing land of Bakkhos, where the vinegod first mixed wine for Mother Rheia in a brimming cup, and named the city Kerassai, the Mixings [in Lydia]."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 34. 214 ff :
"Vineclad Phrygia, where Rheia dwells who cared for Bromios in boyhood."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 45. 96 ff :
"[Dionysos] whom Rheia mother of the gods nursed with her cherishing milk."
-----------
Title: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: altered on March 17, 2019, 08:32:01 PM
Jeeeeeez telarus. I've been around the fringes of this stuff recently (lots of research into pre classical Mediterranean cultures, gotta love the etruscans and Minoans tbh) and this post you made is probably the biggest single source I've seen online on /any/ pre classical Hellenic myth. Impressive, and now I need to read all of it voraciously. Thanks for the post man.

ETA: I know you cite a site that has much more than your post does, but I saw it for the first time as part of your post, so I'm still telling the truth.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 09:08:05 PM
 :lulz: :lulz:

I wondered when Telarus would jump on this thread. Very neat stuff!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Telarus on March 17, 2019, 10:09:33 PM
Very welcome.  :fnord:

Bacchus' cult of Eris invented the tambourine.

[ Shades of Joy - The Desert is a Circle | 1970, Music of El Topo ,O.S.T. ]
https://youtu.be/cOBtwYGpciI


:pax:

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 23, 2019, 09:59:30 PM
Been a while since I posted an update.

I wanted to talk a little about the Sacred Movements. In my last post about them, I was feeling frustrated, like it took so much energy to get to / from the class that I wasn't able to really enjoy the class itself.

Things have changed. For one, I changed the commute - instead of taking 1.5 hours and $12 to arrive by train/subway (and then the same thing just to get home), I'm just driving into Manhattan, which takes about 45 minutes. I had a major mental block around driving in Manhattan, but it turns out that the route I take isn't too bad, and I can park on the street right near the Gurdjieff foundation. So instead of running from the subway to get to the class in the nick of time, I am able to arrive 10-15 minutes early and meditate before the class. That changed everything.

The class is still challenging, but I'm making progress. I'm more comfortable in my body now, more practiced in coordinating its fine-movements. And each class is additive - we will work on a series of movements, and in the next class, will try it again, with another step or movement.

The class bypasses the intellect. As someone who is more intellectually-minded, I struggled with this. At first, I was really craving explanations. I wanted somebody to say "This is our goal, and here's how these actions support that." I wanted someone to tell me why we are holding our arms exactly like this, while concentrating on the sensation of verticality. Those explanations never came.

Likewise, nobody ever explains the motion before we do it. Nobody says "Okay, so the eight steps go like this, step 1 is X, Step 2 is Y, Step 3 is Z...." We just do them and repeat them.

Earlier in this thread, I brought up the metaphor that the self is like a horse and carriage.. there's a driver, a horse, a carriage, a passenger... eventually one day there might be a master who can coordinate everything and isn't just riding along. But these parts don't speak the same language. "How do you tell a horse what to do?"

I feel like the movements speak the language of the body. They are talking to the physical center without routing through the intellect or the emotions. It's like we're moving through a rocky forest.. The horse knows how to move past the obstacles all by itself. The driver (intellect) can't instruct the horse how to do it--just like how if you try to think about all the things you need to do in order to walk across the room, you'd never take a step.

The movements are a physical expression of the Gurdjieff work. To do the movements, you have to align all three centers: the body, the intellect, the emotions. And when they are aligned, you are open to something. Someone once described the movements to me as something like a prayer. I understand that now.

Maybe a half dozen times now, I've arrived at an internal place of complete awareness and sensitivity. It's a very special feeling. It's not like being in a trance, it's like being snapped out of one. It's a similar experience to being in "the zone", where you are acting almost automatically. But reflecting on these experiences, I can't say that it's fully automatic or intentional. It's like, both...? Very hard to describe.

Months ago, LMNO talked about how in practicing the drums, you learn to play different rhythms with different parts of your body. Somehow, the body keeps track of all this, you don't have to think about it. It's like that.

Sometimes I'm watching TV, zoned out, and I see somebody doing something and really engaged in it - playing a sport, an instrument, dancing, et cetera. And I can't help but think - that person is really alive right now. It's like it shines a light on how asleep I am at that moment. I envy people performing with bands because they are having a real moment, right there. They're not in the waiting room, they're really doing what they're meant to be doing.

And in a way, I'm glad that it was hard for me, at first, to approach the movements. By overcoming these internal obstacles, I created something inside of myself. I literally did give up. And for some reason I kept going anyway -- and arrived at a place I couldn't have discovered if these things were "easy". Somebody told me that people with a dance background are almost worse off, in that regard -- the movement / coordination part comes easy to them, so they get tricked into thinking that's all there is. That they've got it. But there's something else there which you don't discover if it's easy. It takes conscious labor and intentional suffering.





I want to capture a moment that happened a little over a month ago. First I want to mention that the experience of doing the movements really focuses you on your own mind and body. But there's also (I don't know how to express this verbally) a "group feel". A sense of being a component of a larger, moving organism. Both one that's present in the room, and the larger human organism. Sometimes when you do these movements right near someone else, you bump into them -- and that bump causes this little shock of awareness - you get a flash of awareness of their position as well as your own.

We are sitting in rows and columns. Each column  performs an action at the same time (and those action correspond to the digits in the number 142857, but I won't get into that here). There's a movement where you look to the left and hold it for about 15 seconds. Then there's a movement where you look to the right and hold it for about 15 seconds. Because each column is doing these actions but staggered by one beat (ie, I'm looking to the left, while the column on my left is looking to the right), you end up making eye contact with the person on either side of you for a 15 second period.

This was an intense experience. During this exercise, I was in a heightened state of sensitivity. Very focused on all the tiny little emotions in the body and how they manifest in the muscles. On que, I turned my head to the left. I made eye contact with this guy next to me.

Eye contact is like an electrical conduit.

In 15 seconds, I saw him go through so much.. he's aware of me, then he's aware of my perception of him. I experience the same. The tiny movements of the muscles around his eyes... I could feel his deep seated anxiety, and his reaction to me seeing it, his attempt to overcome it, his failure to insulate himself. Likewise, I could feel my own fear of the Other, and how it manifested on my face.. and also how I was reacting to his seeing me. We were plugged into one another, directly. Nothing supernatural here, but I felt like we had a moment of true psychic contact. Electrical contact, soul to soul. I learned more about him in 15 seconds than I know about some of my close friends.

After the class, I went to shake his hand and say hi, but he jetted, quickly, preventing the opportunity. Probably on purpose. I'm reminded that there are reasons we build walls around ourselves. And there's a reason you don't want to be "conscious" all the time - it's not comfortable. If we were receptive all the time, we'd be crushed by it.

It was a powerful moment - shook me to the core.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Telarus on April 23, 2019, 11:32:47 PM
Both of those really hit home atm. I have been doing Silat, an Indonesian martial art, for the past 8 years. So much of it is "non-explained movement". I was very lucky in that my guru badgered his teacher with "silly questions" and so he has a completely different mental map of this thing that we do than most other instructors I've seen.

And that map is _absolutely_ body-centric. Unfortunately, our culture lets the kids who "show competence" receive all the physical training, while the rest of us have to struggle through retraining ourselves later (if we ever take that opportunity). Reconnecting with the body means undoing a huge amount of chronic tension (your pose-hold-relax-repeat description has deep parallels to Christopher Hyatt's "Undoing Exercises"... who I think has Gurdjieff connections). Then looking past the flood of sensory information coming in from the "environment" and focusing on the sensory information coming from "inside".

Our beginner breathing meditations involve flowing the arms and hands all across the body, almost like you are lathering yourself with soap in the shower. This is SUPER WEIRD FEELING at first, almost indescribably weird. You are not socialized to touch yourself like this (you are basically anti-socialized away from it), you fuck up and lock up, or your breathing catches and gets blocked, or your hand leaves contact with the body. Your "monkey brain" is going to jump all over these feelings and try to convince you that this weird stuff you are doing is boring, not worth your time, etc. The best I can recommend is to just return focus to the breath, the intellect will run out of steam eventually.

The point to our exercise is to retrain the body to be confident that it can move in certain ways (through certain vectors) with power. We are literally "filling in the blank spots on our personal-space map". But guru Brandt and I just made that metaphor up to distract the intellect. ;)


Will go back and re-read this thread. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fujikoma on April 25, 2019, 09:37:05 PM
This is GREAT stuff. It took me a while to read the whole thing. I think I might have to walk down to the book store and pick up Baelzebub's Tales now. Really had me reflecting on a lot of my own experiences and considering them. Anyway, with how scattered my mental processes typically are, it's likely better I don't go far into detail, and just say, thanks.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on April 25, 2019, 10:02:59 PM
Might want to start with some Ouspensky first.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fujikoma on April 25, 2019, 11:32:52 PM
Quote from: Hoopla! on April 25, 2019, 10:02:59 PM
Might want to start with some Ouspensky first.

Yeah, probably a good idea. Not sure they'll have them, or if they do, if they'll be able to find them, it's an odd sort of, disorganized bookstore with cats roaming free in it, with little chairs for the cats to sit in. Oh, and the basement is even more chaotic and has a stand with anarchist newsletters, free, among other weirdness. In short, it's a cool, but sort of spooky place... also no one is ever shopping when I go in, which is, strange.

EDIT: Seriously, the basement is unreal, with twists and turns, and seems bigger than the store it's under, almost like the laws of space are, bent a little. I've gotten lost down there before.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 30, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
I guess the last thing I want to say about the Movements is that I can't verbalize what I'm getting out of it. But I can tell I get more of whatever that is every time I go


Somebody said that we are processing the Movements at a non-verbal level. Your words can't really touch what's happening, but you can feel it. I'm learning, but learning what? couldn't tell you
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 30, 2019, 05:20:17 PM
Just finished reading this book "The Realized Idiot" by Bruno Martin. I really do think that if G were alive today, he would have a place in culture in the footsteps of Mark Twain or George Carlin - at times cynical, at times very funny, and always with a pointed lesson to teach.

Gurdjieff used to host these "ritual feasts", where you'd gather and eat together. They were long affairs, sometimes lasting from early evening until well after midnight. During these feasts, Gurdjieff would ritually toast to the "idiots". His "science of idiotism" classified 21 types of idiots, arranged along a hierarchy called the Ladder of Reason. In any given evening, they'd usually only get through ~7 of them, it was rare to get past 13.

At each toast (which would be vodka or armagnac), Gurdjieff would describe a type of idiot and ask - who feels most like this idiot? Or after he would go through a few of them, he'd ask someone - which idiot are you?

The Toasts to the Idiots has a very "cosmic shmuck" (via Robert Anton Wilson) mouthfeel. The only way to advance, as a person, is to develop an awareness of what kind of moron you are (which is a blindspot). Accept that we're all fuckin dumbasses, none of us are enlightened masters, and every 1% "enlightenment" comes with 50% idiocy as a waste product. As you get more "enlightened" you develop a parallel capacity to have your entire head even further up your own ass.

Interestingly, after Gurdjieff died, nobody felt they could adequately continue the tradition.. so the current "inner circle" decided to make it forbidden. John Bennett taught the details to Bruno Martin, who wrote this book with an acknowledgment that hosting these things is considered tabboo by "Gurdjieff Foundation" groups. Orthodoxy, lol.

The book details the 21 types of idiots. People don't neatly fit into one category, everybody is a couple different types of idiots, and that type might develop over time. Similar to the Discordian society, most people "advance" by moving down.

Idiot #1 is the ordinary idiot, the run of the mill dumbass that you see on the street. Most advancement requires people to return to #1, to recognize that they are not special, they're a dumbass meat popsickle like everybody else.

Idiot #21 (the unique idiot) is God




Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: altered on April 30, 2019, 07:12:51 PM
I /had/ to look that up, and it is pretty damned pineal sounding when you have to full list in front of you, at least online. Idiot types include "swaggering," "square", "psychopathic", "polyhedral." The types before 18 make largely no sense to me as listed online. I /really/ want to make sense of this, but ... well.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on April 30, 2019, 08:04:40 PM
I'm attending a G ritual feast at the end of May. I wonder if I have the balls to bring up the toast?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fujikoma on April 30, 2019, 08:13:42 PM
I went to the antique bookstore down the road, they had three copies of "Meetings with Extraordinary Men" by G, and one of this fictional tale by Ouspensky (apologies for butchering the spelling). Unfortunately, the former was $8 and the latter was $25 (and looked quite fragile, though a hardcover), and I just don't have that kind of money this week. Unfortunately, the bargain basement (literally, in the basement) was a bunch of mass-produced garbage at $2 a pop, about the best I found down there was a "Thieve's World" novel by Robert Lynn Asprin and briefly considered that, maybe next time.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 30, 2019, 10:02:49 PM
The full text of In Search of the Miraculous is pretty easy to find. Here's one: http://www.baytallaah.com/bookspdf/80.pdf




Quote from: nullified on April 30, 2019, 07:12:51 PM
I /had/ to look that up, and it is pretty damned pineal sounding when you have to full list in front of you, at least online. Idiot types include "swaggering," "square", "psychopathic", "polyhedral." The types before 18 make largely no sense to me as listed online. I /really/ want to make sense of this, but ... well.

Yeah, they require some explanation... here's a few.

The Super Idiot
The Super Idiot thinks they have everything figured out already. They enter a spiritual path and go "ah, yes, stuff I already get". The book says "Some of these Idiots travel great distances (for instance to Mongolia or Nepal) just to drink tea with Shamans, attending one of their rituals, and boasting aftewards that they know everything about shamanism...

[This idiot's] complacency and arrogance are based on imagination, whereby he fantsizes about having reached a high level of spiritual growth."



lol this is me -- I read most of a book and then walk around high on myself all week.



The Arch Idiot - Bruno calls this one "the pretending idiot" - they get infatuated with a leader or teacher, and are basically stuck to that person's path. These are classic suck-ups and brown-nosers, and frequently work their way into any group's "inner circle". They need to figure out that they are on their own spiritual quest, not their teacher's.

The Compassionate Idiot - this idiot thinks they are very empathetic and compassionate. They think they should love everybody and are very emotional about everything. They often become vegetarians or vegans.

Gurdjieff says this is stupid because the whole of evolution is built off of feeding from other things -- he called it "Reciprocal Maintenence". That's not to say that you shouldn't be compassionate or empathetic. But Compassion should be an inner, essential urge and not a moralistic or emotional thing. The compassionate idiot is criticized as doing things so as to appear moral. They want to be thought of as compassionate, and so their charity is tainted by vanity.

Gurdjieff gives two subcategories of this idiot, which I won't get into


The Squirming Idiot - this moron squirms between two worlds. They have found something real, but are not willing to sacrifice the unreal. The squirming idiot is afraid of giving up their image of the world.

I have a friend who broke up with a shitty boyfriend, a huge piece of shit. Four months later, she's starting to date him again. Every single friend and family member is going "what the fuck" at her, "he doesn't respect you", "he cheated on you 50 times", "when you were with him, you were miserable", etc etc etc. She hears this and goes "yeah, but..." Receiving good advice but being unable to follow it. Squirming between two worlds.  The squirming idiot is difficult to help.


next, we come to the geometric idiots... there's some ancient alchemical symbolism here. The circle is a symbol of heaven, whereas the square is a symbol of earth.

The Square Idiot - is someone who is sometimes not an idiot. But like a square, they go a distance and then turn 90 degrees. While standing on the corner, they "get it", but then quickly forget and become absorbed by shooting towards the next corner.

Quote from: David Bowieyou drive like a demon from station to station

The square idiot is always stressed and changing direction. Always chasing the next great idea or the next big task. He is always identified with things that are "very important". At the corners of the square, he may be able to slow down and observe himself. He may be able to set his aim on something outside of the square. And by doing this, they can escape the black iron prison for a moment and develop something real.

the square idiot corresponds to the first brain, or body

The Round Idiot runs in circles. Their lives are entirely dictated by external conditions. They cannot take responsibility for themselves or others, as their behaviors are all functions of environment. Nobody can blame the round idiot because the situation they're in determined their behavior. Despite this reliance on the external, they are self-centered.

Part of what keeps them trapped in the circle is striving for perfection. This makes them turn round and round. If a spot on the circle was erased, they could escape, but fow now, it's a jail. And it could be a very seductive jail, because they don't recognize they need a way out.

the round idiot corresponds to the second brain, or emotions

The Zigzag idiot - has managed to shed their self-centeredness. They are interested in ideas for non self-serving reasons, pursuing intellectual interests and questions. They travel along a zigzagging spiral into unknown realms, though they don't know where it all leads. Like the squirming idiot, they are always being pulled in a new direction, distracted by their own thoughts and impulses. The zigzag idiot is unreliable, they change their decisions all the time.

If the zigzag idiot can let go of their personality and acquired baggage, they will be able to move in a straight line, develop continuity, and inner strength. This is someone who is truly working to better themselves, but ends up as a dilettante, someone who samples but never really immerses themselves.

The zigzag idiot corresponds to the third brain, or intellect - their achievements are the product of thinking and ideas, and they remain anchored to thinking and ideas

(I feel this one in a big way too)


The Enlightened Idiot - this is someone who has glimpsed truth, but has not been able to grasp it firmly because they have not developed the necessary stability. This glimpse has been discovered through ego-death, non-identification, letting go of personality. There is another self, a real one, and we want to be inhabited by it. But the enlightened idiot isn't there yet. They rely on the tools which opened the door, and reliance on those tools keeps them from crossing the threshhold.



I feel like that's enough to give you a taste.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: altered on April 30, 2019, 10:14:11 PM
That makes a lot more sense, and I do see the utility of this view. It focuses on the flaws of the individual but it makes the flaws less individual and more universal, so they're easier to look at as part of yourself.

I'd like to believe I'm the Square, but so long as survival has a massive component in how I live my life I think I'm probably the Round. I don't know if I could be said to ever "get it" when I have the distraction of this huge cliff face back down to hell right next to me.

I do jump from idea to idea, though, but it's hard to say it's completely undirected. At the time I'm jumping it is, but I have moments of introspection where I try to synthesize all of the prior points into a single concept, which then I obsess over awhile then go back to jumping around. Call it the katamari idiot perhaps? Because I just have this big jumble of junk I'm carrying around and trying to make useful, and it picks up all the other junk it's attached to and spirals out of control.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fujikoma on May 01, 2019, 12:17:52 AM
I'm, definitely a super idiot. Thanks for the link. Now I know everything there is to know about Theosophy! :P

I know there's a lot of different views on the Tarot. Back when I used to read about it, the Hermetic resources I was reading identified the fool as the card with the most potential in the deck (for better or worse).
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 01, 2019, 05:32:03 AM
I am an Idiot Idiot.  Head's all empty, I don't care.

:whack:
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Faust on May 01, 2019, 08:46:30 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 30, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
I guess the last thing I want to say about the Movements is that I can't verbalize what I'm getting out of it. But I can tell I get more of whatever that is every time I go


Somebody said that we are processing the Movements at a non-verbal level. Your words can't really touch what's happening, but you can feel it. I'm learning, but learning what? couldn't tell you

All I am able to envision when you describe this is the "Make contact" gesture from Bloodborne
https://youtu.be/GcPjAMYo8h8?t=87
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: altered on May 01, 2019, 08:56:12 AM
Oh my god, I actually feel like I can understand what he's talking about now that I have a visual to go with it. :lulz:

Given what Bloodborne's influences were and the people behind it, however, I'd be surprised if they didn't have at least one reference to Gurdjieff in the game. Actually, that reminds me... someone on the subreddit back then made a post about the early 20th century mystical influences in the game. I'd bet money they brought up Gurdjieff.

*one quick google search later*

Haha! I fuckin' knew it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/52tdik/spoilers_gurdjieff_ouspensky_and_humanity_as_food/

I even commented on the damn post (no points for finding my dumb comment, I'm not hiding).
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Frontside Back on May 03, 2019, 07:54:14 AM
What is the form of idiocy where you don't want to believe in any of labels above, not because you didn't believe you was an idiot, but because you loathe the idea that a couple words could sum you up?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fujikoma on May 03, 2019, 08:01:47 AM
Labels suffice when people are sufficiently deficient to such an extent that they want to see themselves as anything, even if that is d) none of the above.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on May 03, 2019, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Frontside Back on May 03, 2019, 07:54:14 AM
What is the form of idiocy where you don't want to believe in any of labels above, not because you didn't believe you was an idiot, but because you loathe the idea that a couple words could sum you up?

Pedantry; being overly literal  :wink:

The typology is just a tool you can use to examine your own blind spots and failings. The "types" are not exclusive to one another--each is like a band on a rainbow of stupidity. There are no clear borders.

The point of the tradition is self-examination - these categories can be useful to understand the numerous ways humans have their heads up their own asses, even if nobody is perfectly captured by any given type.




and let's be honest with ourselves today - we are all ordinary idiots


somes the stupidity is purely that we think we're unique, above all that
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on May 03, 2019, 05:30:11 PM
Yeah I definitely read some of myself in all those types. I cover the waterfront when it comes to idiocy.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Frontside Back on May 04, 2019, 04:08:29 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 03, 2019, 05:10:31 PM
we are all ordinary idiots

Realizing this makes me feel weirdly special
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: styx on May 04, 2019, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 11, 2017, 02:26:23 PM
Grab Your Safari Fez



It's April 2017. I've been reading about Gurdjieff for six months now. Fighting my way through his horrible book "Beezlebub's Tales to His Grandson". (this is harder to read than Godel Escher Bach... the book's impenetrability is probably one of the reasons the New Age movement never picked up Gurdjieff)

Much like when I discovered Discordianism in the late 90s, I asked myself "Are there really people out there doing this stuff? Or is this some dead joke I've found encased in amber?" Well the answer is yes, of course, it's 2017, people follow all sorts of shit. There are still theosophists for christsakes.

So WHO are the people still following this 1920s spiritual movement?  It turns out that there is a G.I.Gurdjieff foundation in NYC and it has like 300 or 400 members. I wanted to meet some.

So I reserved a seat for this event:

(http://www.gurdjieff-foundation-newyork.org/eventImages/GurdjieffFlyerApr2017.jpg)

Maybe this will turn out to be a cult? I don't know. Let's find out.

Hi,


Well, this Brazilian group are involved with practices of the fourth way. Check it out their website -> https://nokhooja.com/temas/ (sorry it's in portuguese). I know another place in Spain doing the same practices, but I can't remember the name.

Nice thread by the way.



Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: styx on May 05, 2019, 10:10:14 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 23, 2019, 09:59:30 PM
..
We are sitting in rows and columns. Each column  performs an action at the same time (and those action correspond to the digits in the number 142857, but I won't get into that here). There's a movement where you look to the left and hold it for about 15 seconds. Then there's a movement where you look to the right and hold it for about 15 seconds. Because each column is doing these actions but staggered by one beat (ie, I'm looking to the left, while the column on my left is looking to the right), you end up making eye contact with the person on either side of you for a 15 second period.

This was an intense experience. During this exercise, I was in a heightened state of sensitivity. Very focused on all the tiny little emotions in the body and how they manifest in the muscles. On que, I turned my head to the left. I made eye contact with this guy next to me.

Eye contact is like an electrical conduit.

In 15 seconds, I saw him go through so much.. he's aware of me, then he's aware of my perception of him. I experience the same. The tiny movements of the muscles around his eyes... I could feel his deep seated anxiety, and his reaction to me seeing it, his attempt to overcome it, his failure to insulate himself. Likewise, I could feel my own fear of the Other, and how it manifested on my face.. and also how I was reacting to his seeing me. We were plugged into one another, directly. Nothing supernatural here, but I felt like we had a moment of true psychic contact. Electrical contact, soul to soul. I learned more about him in 15 seconds than I know about some of my close friends.

After the class, I went to shake his hand and say hi, but he jetted, quickly, preventing the opportunity. Probably on purpose. I'm reminded that there are reasons we build walls around ourselves. And there's a reason you don't want to be "conscious" all the time - it's not comfortable. If we were receptive all the time, we'd be crushed by it.

It was a powerful moment - shook me to the core.

about 15 years ago I was part of a group and we used to have very similar exercises, instead of rows and columns we seat in couples in front of one another looking into the eyes for as long as we can, the teacher just observed and separate the couples when the exercise fails, I personally couldn't follow for more than 2 minutes and a few students actually completed the exercise. We did that sort of movement for months one day a week. That's was a very good time of learning things. I wish I could find a school like this again.  :)
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 27, 2019, 08:45:33 PM
The Gurdjieff foundation has a calendar, and we've just reached the end of the "year". The Foundation closes for a few months, and reopens in September. Something like a "summer vacation". I wanted to share a little about my experiences in the last month.

I attended a talk at the Gurdjieff foundation where we listened to a few readings and some music. One of the readings emphasized the need to participate simultaneously in "three lines of work":


And in the moment, something in the talk rubbed me the wrong way. The talk seemed to suggest (and perhaps this is just my mechanical association with some of the words used) that serving the Gurdjieff Foundation is a way of working on the third line. There is a thought that all of us doing the movements and work together helps put a little particle of consciousness into the world, an island of self awareness on which others can land their boats.

And it occurred to me that despite coming to these meetings for two years, I know very little about the Gurdjieff foundation itself. I don't know who runs it, or how it's organized. They haven't asked me for money (though they did test us, seeing if asking for money would drive us off) but they do occasionally suggest that we should spend more time volunteering there and participating in foundation events. And I genuinely do not think they are a predatory cult, but I just had to pause and ask myself if my judgment was trustworthy.

It was like some Discordian sensibility sat up within me--a distrust of organized religion. I sat with this feeling for a week. They are old, we are young, they need our vitality to continue. Why should I give it to them? My participation in this group requires a sacrifice of time and energy -- do they deserve it?

And I knew this was a cynical thought, and that I was not being generous. But it's important to be awake, critical, to not regard these old timers as perfected beings, but humans in the raw. Other searchers. And it just seemed strange to me that in two years of meetings, there is so much about the Foundation which hasn't been discussed or revealed. Probably because in these meetings we focus on the Work, and not on terrestrial stuff like the organization. But still, it's a weird little blind spot all of us initiates have.

At my small-group meeting the next week, one of the old timers asked if there was anything about the work we were particularly interested in. I spoke up -- I want to know more about the Foundation -- how it's organized. Who's in charge? What are your roles? How has it changed since Gurdjieff's death, and how is it changing now?

Someone asked me - why do you want to know these things?

and I said because I feel like, despite two years of dutiful participation, we are still in a distant orbit around the center.
And because I don't understand why we haven't talked about these things. And it's impossible for me to know whether it is omitted intentionally or not.

At this, the leaders visibly reeled. They were hurt that I would accuse them of deception. They said that they never told us about that stuff because we never asked, and they didn't know we were interested. ((but -- they initiate the discussions for each meeting, and it doesn't seem like there's space to ask super off-topic questions like that))


Someone else in the group spoke up - that yes, before they had spent a lot of time at the Foundation, it seemed very mysterious, private, and that there is a sense that you shouldn't ask questions about it.

Then someone else said, yes, I've been curious about this too, but it doesn't feel like there's ever an opportunity to talk about it.

So the leaders answered all of our questions. They answered thoroughly and patiently and I smelled no whiff of deception or misleading us.

They said that after Gurdjieff died, the "shareholder" of the foundation was his protege, Jeanne de Salzmann, and when she died in 92(?), it passed on to four people, and now it's eight people. There is a separate "council" that makes group decisions, and two of my group's leaders are on that council.

I was told that since Gurdjieff's death, there's been an ongoing discussion about how to keep the teaching alive, and not just mechanically repeating the bits that were left to us. This pleased me. They said that for a while, they were not recruiting or proselytizing, but in recent years, they've started to hold public readings as a hook for those that want to get involved. All of us in the meeting originally came in from one of these readings (see the first page of this thread).

I was reminded that there are a lot of "work days" where people gather at the foundation on a Saturday and work together all day. And that sometimes there are work weeks at a campsite upstate. And that if I came to any of these, I would see that there's nothing secret, really. If I came to the foundation closing ceremony - which is mainly about cleaning before the building shuts down for the summer - I could explore the whole building and poke in every closet.  (although that was my anniversary, couldn't do it!)

They also mentioned the library. On the second floor, the foundation has a library of special books, and all members of the foundation are welcome to visit it and read. It's not a "lending library"; books cannot be removed. A lot of them are about mysticism, or other esoterica. As you can imagine, this piqued my interest.


In conclusion to this little discussion... I came at the Gurdjieff leaders kinda directly, perhaps confrontationally. In part, this was to see how they would react. If they really were keeping things secret from us, there would be clues in their reactions. And as I've said before, if this really is a predatory cult that's playing a long con, then I trust Eris to save me. So I hurled a golden apple, and I saw people react, and frankly, it increased my trust.


So on the following Wednesday, on the evening of the final movement class of the season, I showed up 45 minutes early to explore the library. (BTW, I saw B. Murray in the building that night, but didn't get a chance to bother him again  :p) I'll share some pictures.


I was told to go up the stairs and pass the Zodiac Room:
(https://i.imgur.com/G3AlhtR.jpg)

And down a short set of stairs, there was a single room library, filled wall to wall with fascinating books.

(https://i.imgur.com/pxx9hqC.jpg)

The books were organized by topic...

Mythology
Poetry
Alchemy
Christianity
Sufism
Islamic writings
and a whole wall of Gurdjieff's writings in different languages

(https://i.imgur.com/NRWOslJ.jpg)

I pulled some William Blake from the shelf and meditated on it.

(https://i.imgur.com/r7my7au.jpg)

and then I went to the final movement class of the season

where I aligned myself with myself
and the bigger picture
and the even bigger picture

and when I left, I felt like a snowglobe that I just stopped shaking,
all the particles of snow now moving in a circle, together, separated and unified within the translucent glass globe of my heart.



Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Al Qədic on June 27, 2019, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 27, 2019, 08:45:33 PM
And I knew this was a cynical thought, and that I was not being generous. But it's important to be awake, critical, to not regard these old timers as perfected beings, but humans in the raw. Other searchers. And it just seemed strange to me that in two years of meetings, there is so much about the Foundation which hasn't been discussed or revealed. Probably because in these meetings we focus on the Work, and not on terrestrial stuff like the organization. But still, it's a weird little blind spot all of us initiates have.
The line between Faith and Cult is an interesting one, right? In a way, it's a bit subjective; anything sounds culty if you dress it up in robes and faux-Latin hymns and talk of The Greatest Greater Good, but like you mention, it's worth remembering that all these priests and nuns, these Great Leaders of Faith are still just squishy meat monkeys, groping in the dark to try and find something interesting and meaningful to latch onto, just like the rest of us. Maybe that's just me, but I find myself noticing that blatant humanity in religious figures when listening to their speeches and sermons. You can learn, or at least surmise, a lot about a pastor's insecurities and problematic personality traits by paying attention to what parts of his holy book he puts emphasis, scorn, or humor on.

Also damn a library full of poetry, Islam, and alchemy? Nice :lol:
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on June 27, 2019, 09:17:33 PM
Cram, I'm really happy this is working for you.  It's been great reading your adventures. 
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 28, 2019, 02:25:59 PM
Thank you.

Reflecting on my experiences... They discourage us from thinking too much about "results". The point of the work is not to develop superhuman cognitive abilities. Doing the work doesn't make you better than other people. We talk about enlightenment, but not as a permanent state. To be filled with light (the light of self knowledge, lighting a candle within the dark cave of your inner being) is usually a momentary experience. All we strive for is to see things how they really are, to have a brief contact with objective reality. To remember its taste and carry its memory back into the darkness.

But fuck it, let me talk about results.

I ran an incredible event a few weeks ago. I don't want to type it's name, because I don't want people googling it to find this place. But it's first word is Goat and it's second word is Larp. It was a truly incredible day. We had seven discordians there! For years and years I've helped people run their larps, and I've directed larps, but I've never produced one all by myself (at least, not one that required a lot of money changing hands). This was my first real jump into production, meant to be a training experience for bigger and better projects in 2020.

How did it happen? It basically happened because of the meditation and self examination I've been doing. The inner-sensitivity we develop in the Gurdjieff work brought me into contact with my own needs.

What am I doing with my life? What am I waiting for?

If I zoom out, and perceive the bigger picture, what does that picture look like? How can I be of service to it?

Seriously, what am I waiting for??

And what is the resistance, what is holding me back? Can I perceive the exact moment in my thoughts when my laziness kicks in? What distracts me from shooting the arrow from my heart, into the world?

In the meditative space, I was able to see how my daily rhythms, my desires, my impulses, my my ego -- they lead me in a certain direction, but only in fantasy, not reality. And the fantasy without the reality is crushing. To take the next step, I have to be open. Receptive. The big picture is talking to us all the time, and we can feel it... but it's so easy to focus on other things, to be comfortable--and this is sleep.

This is not a verbal understanding. It's a state of being, it happens within the whole body. The head is noisy, we think we're in the head. We're not, consciousness involves the whole nervous system--the limbs, the skin, the environment you're in, the sky, the earth, the gravity of the whole fucking galaxy.

And I decided -- I need to step forward. The world has given me all these gifts, let's not waste them. I want to push myself, discover my true capacity, operate on a higher level of difficulty. I made myself open. And then the idea, like a butterfly, landed on the jeweled lotus, and there was a lightning bolt of energy that connected my everyday, ordinary life with the cosmos above. And it wasn't a stuffy idea, it was FUN, it was SILLY, it was pure discordian joy.

And six months later, I went on TV to talk about my idea (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFbl1w178mw), and the onion AV club (https://news.avclub.com/this-summers-hottest-event-is-a-goat-larp-a-larp-des-1835148101) did an article about it, and everybody was hitting me with mania on every side, and I realized -- this is it. This is what I was supposed to do.

In the Gurdjieff work, a "Miracle" is the term for when a higher cosmos is able to exert influence on the lower cosmos. Like if an ant colony is able to see the water rising, and relocate -- they couldn't do it from the ant's individual perspective, they'd have to escape that everyday sensibility and see things from a higher point of view. I feel like what I did, in some sense, was a miracle.

It proved to me that free will exists, that you can walk out of the black iron prison. You can do it today.

You just have to be sensitive to the invitations you are receiving, from outside of the prison. And when you get the invitation, and you feel the desire to answer it (really feel it, not just intellectually, but within your whole being), you can bend the bars. You can walk out. You can be free. Today.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fujikoma on July 26, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
I've, met a woman, possibly ten years my senior, whose every step is a bounce, and whose mouth is big enough to devour a pug like a snake would. I think she's adorable, except, I wonder what happens if the pug poops. She looked me in the eye, out of nowhere, in this group we were having, and said, "We believe the body has a kind of wisdom, it's why we do this." I didn't ask this, and in fact, she was the only sane one in a group of crazies, but, I was singled out. I don't know why, I couldn't move as fluidly as anyone else, I could only move as one thing, a predator, a killing machine. Granted, I don't want to be that, who does, but it was her agenda to lasso me as soon as I proved the slightest bit cooperative by offering help. She was very attractive, but, it quickly wasn't about that at all, especially after I heard her say that. But that is the thing she stared me in the eye and said, I dunno why she did, but she was very insistent I know...

EDIT: In short, I'm going to return for her next lesson.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 22, 2019, 03:29:18 PM
Lately I've been feeling very robotic.

I get these intuitive flashes of how things will unfold according to script. I reach for the remote control and I know the next 2 hours of my life are predetermined. Every behavior, every sentence, flows from a fixed formation. I'm trapped in this meat body that operates by meat rules. I can't imagine an action that takes me outside of the script, because my imagination is part of the Machine too.

My intuition pulls me towards doing something NEW with the body. Go somewhere new, develop a new skill.. change the inputs, and the outputs change too.  "Go the fuck outside."


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on December 09, 2019, 01:14:39 PM
Just want to share an exercise we're trying this week.

To Give Up Suffering

Suffering is an emotional reaction. This means that, to some extent, it just happens within us.

But a lot of suffering is what we'd call the "wrong work of centers" -- that is, the emotional part of you is trying to "do the work" for another part of you, and it can't, so we become occupied by an emotion that doesn't serve a purpose.

For example - imagine you're walking somewhere, and you need to get there--maybe you're late--so you're hurrying.  And while you're hurrying, you're stressing out, concentrating on the lateness and the urgency and the need to get there. Suffering. Maybe you can let go of that.

The emotional suffering doesn't get you there any faster. It's extraneous. It wastes energy.
The body can help you out by walking faster. The emotions want to help, but they can't.

So, in a moment of suffering, maybe you can realize -- there's no point to this feeling, I'm going to stop feeding it.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on December 12, 2019, 01:54:42 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 16, 2017, 03:14:56 PM
one of the things I've struggled with for 15 years now is the idea of free will.

There's a "law" in behavioral psychology called the Melioration Principle. It says that an organism will engage in a behavior until a competing behavior offers a better reward. You can see this every day, in everything you do. When you make a choice, what you're doing is really just a quantitative weighing of rewards. And doesn't that sound mechanical? Does that seem like free will? It seems like free will is just solving this calculus equation.

Gurdjieff says there's a way out of this. That there are moments when you can escape this inner slavery. Moments when your actions aren't mechanically dictated by external circumstances. With work, with awareness of the internal world, with "conscious labor and intentional suffering", we can achieve brief moments of internal freedom.

And I say: I will believe it when I see it.

But I'm not dismissing it until I have walked down the path myself. If this kind of freedom is possible, I want to taste it.

Revisiting this thought from a few years back, since it's been the Aim of my inner work.


Most of the "work" we do in the Gurdjieff Work is self observation. By observing the self continually over a long period of time, you can begin to distinguish different types of being, different ways that you are. Normally, we pass from state to state unconsciously - self observation's goal is to shine a light on this.

And with that knowledge of self, I can recognize that there is a hierarchy of consciousness; consciousness operates with different kinds and qualities of data. In normal life, consciousness in any given moment seems to be dominated by one of three "streams"--the body, the emotions, and the intellect. But when consciousness expands to include all three ("Thinking what you feel, feeling what you think..."), life has a different quality.

And in this state of inner unity, where the streams are not combatting each other, there is a different quality to the experience of making a decision.

This quality can also be present in moments of great inner conflict. Gurdjieff says that the soul is developed by generating an enormous tension "between No and Yes". But only if one uses this conflict as a reminder to be present, to not just get swept along with whatever impulse is strongest, but to weigh all the impulses and make an "impartial" decision.


If you'd told me, 5 years ago, that this kind of Free Will is possible, I'd have said that you're just describing metacognition - the ability to think about one's own thoughts, the capacity to self-evaluate. And I've always thought that metacognition is the key to increasing intelligence, but I would have pointed out that this process is still subject to the Melioration Principle and so it's not really an escape from determinism.

But that was before I'd personally felt the difference between mere metacognition and inner freedom. I guess I'd only thought with my intellect before - but remember, consciousness isn't centered in the mind. The emotions and the body also think - in their own ways. Only when they are all thinking, together, is inner freedom possible.

And it's not always possible. You can't necessarily force it to happen. In my experience, it usually appears, like a gift.


I'm in mid conversation, and someone has said something that caused a chain of associations. I am formulating what I'm about to say next, mentally arranging the beats of this anecdote - and while I do that, I have stopped listening to my partner. And before I launch into my own spring-loaded monologue, something in me recognizes that I'm acting on autopilot - this something looks into the future and realizes that the anecdote I'm about to regurgitate doesn't actually add anything to the conversation--I'm only mentally rehearsing it because it'll be pleasurable to talk about.

So, that something chooses not to speak. I deny my own pleasure to better serve the world.
And there is no intrinsic reward for this, no selfish motive or anxious aversion to putting my foot in my mouth. There's no dopamine hit.

There it is.


The tragedy is that we have so little of it... can we get more? can we exercise this muscle and make it stronger?

Can we really develop a Watcher that's outside of the ongoing process?



Is that Watcher the human soul?

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 14, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Secretly snapped a few pictures from this year's "January 13th" celebration.

(https://i.imgur.com/y9immLn.jpg)

The funky writing is Gurdjieff Aphorisms. The one on the right here is the year's theme. I can't remember the literal quote, but it's basically "You must make room for this new feeling [of 'self remembering'].... what is essential?"

The key is that in order to your self-observations to be fruitful, in order for you to really see the self in any semblance of objectivity, you have to empty the teacup. Make a space where consciousness could arise.


(https://i.imgur.com/gZJNfvJ.jpg)

Those six swooshy shapes in the center are representations of numbers. They depict the Enneagram in motion. The red part of the shape is "first".

I believe the first one is 142857, then the second is 285714, then 428571, then 571428, then 714285, and finally 857142.



Happy Birthday, Mr. Gurdjieff.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on January 14, 2020, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 14, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Those six swooshy shapes in the center are representations of numbers. They depict the Enneagram in motion. The red part of the shape is "first".

I believe the first one is 142857, then the second is 285714, then 428571, then 571428, then 714285, and finally 857142.

1/7 is 0.142857, repeating.
2/7 is 0.285714, repeating; similarly, the other numbers in that list correspond to 3/7 through 6/7.
All six patterns are also circularly rotated versions of each other.

I don't know if this means anything, but I can't help but observe patterns.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Faust on January 14, 2020, 02:32:20 PM
The six movements are symmetrical from first to last second to fifth etc, is it intended as a rythmic dance?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 14, 2020, 03:01:12 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 14, 2020, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 14, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
Those six swooshy shapes in the center are representations of numbers. They depict the Enneagram in motion. The red part of the shape is "first".

I believe the first one is 142857, then the second is 285714, then 428571, then 571428, then 714285, and finally 857142.

1/7 is 0.142857, repeating.
2/7 is 0.285714, repeating; similarly, the other numbers in that list correspond to 3/7 through 6/7.
All six patterns are also circularly rotated versions of each other.

I don't know if this means anything, but I can't help but observe patterns.

You nailed it.

All the fractions of 7 produce the same repeating number, but starting from a different spot.
In the Gurdjieff work, we talk about "the law of seven", or "the law of octaves". There's something special and mysterious about the number and what it corresponds to. Some of the Sacred Movements are about experiencing this number.

Quote from: Faust on January 14, 2020, 02:32:20 PM
The six movements are symmetrical from first to last second to fifth etc, is it intended as a rythmic dance?

Yes, in a way. The pattern is present in many Sacred Movements.

If you visualize a circle, with 9 at the top, and then the numbers 1-8 proceeding clockwise, then you can see how the numbers I wrote correspond to each figure.

You may also notice which single digit integers are missing from the sequence -- 3, 6, and 9, which form triangle on this circle.


That's a little bit of why this symbol, the Enneagram, represents the Gurdjieff Work.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Enneagram.svg/1024px-Enneagram.svg.png)

It is said that the enneagram is not still, like the image you see above--it is actually in motion. Those numbers are still repeating.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on April 29, 2020, 09:41:07 PM
Cram, what's been going on with your Mr G group since lockdown? Any virtual meetings or anything?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on April 30, 2020, 02:22:16 PM
Yeah, since lockdown we've been having virtual meetings. Every other week, 1 hour long.

It's not the same as an in-person meeting, that's for sure. We're experimenting with a new way of meeting, and so there are new challenges. We're trying to be available for each other, to be in each other's presence, even in its diluted form.

There's a lot of uncertainty. I think the Foundation was really caught flat-footed with this pandemic. Most of the Foundation members are pretty old and vulnerable, so the Foundation has closed for the rest of the "year". (which really means until June, with a wait-and-see attitude to see if we can re-open in August or September)

Because all of my group friends are in NYC, I get to hear about their challenges... like there's a couple who had a baby in December... now they have not been outside their apartment building since mid-March. Guy says that he knows its Spring because the only tree he can see from his window is starting to look green. Someone else lives right next to a major hospital, so she's been hearing ambulance sirens around the clock, there's no way to get away from it. Everybody is stressed.

As far as The Work goes, I feel like I've been a little out of it.. this situation is so tedious and grating, I don't want to be present and awake. I want to put on a movie or video game and then realize hours have passed.

But it's still important. Thanks to your question, I spent some time sitting and meditating this morning, and it helped me moderate my stress levels. Stress is an accretion, it's something that builds up in your muscles, and in your unconscious mind. Sometimes a flash of consciousness, a brief contact between the conscious and unconscious self, can be really useful. You see what it really is.


one of the group leaders has been musing
that if the work is supposed to make ourselves available,
to help each situation,
give it what it needs,
then maybe we could be doing more.

During German occupation of France, Gurdjieff ran a soup kitchen out of his house. Every night, a line of needy people would form at his back door, he'd let them in, feed them, talk to them, hug them...

The Gurdjieff Foundation is more cloistered. We don't do community outreach like, say, the Masons do. But maybe we should.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on April 30, 2020, 03:33:26 PM
QuoteBut maybe we should.

It's better than nothing?
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on April 30, 2020, 07:06:28 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 30, 2020, 03:33:26 PM
QuoteBut maybe we should.

It's better than nothing?

Agreed.

I've been missing my group recently. But then, I've been missing a lot of people.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 08, 2020, 02:26:05 PM
This morning's contemplations

⚫  I am only sometimes at the helm. Lately, I've been very much asleep at the wheel, just moving through the quarantine life one day at a time. Lately, I've been getting frustrated at myself because I can't seem to get beyond the first steps of any potential project or activity. I want to do something, and then I get distracted. More than usual, despite the lack of distractions. This is a good moment to feel my internal state, my psychic organizing principles.. and notice that they are easily distracted, perhaps too responsive to impulse. This is the human condition. It is very hard to accomplish anything, to become anything, because we are a million impulses only loosely lashed together, often fighting each other. Sometimes it feels like any motion is a war of inches.





⚫  Re-reading Robert Anton Wilson, recognizing the myriad ways his writing was influenced by Gurdjieff .. I think that one of the most valuable parts of RAW's writing is where he urges skepticism of one's own thoughts. He encourages us to always ask: How do we know what we know? How do we decide things? Is the inner eye trustworthy? There is an important shift: between observing something, and being aware of your observation process. Gurdjieff calls this 'self remembering', he thinks its our only clue about how to think objectively.

Regarding the people that you disagree with: it's really tempting -- and seductive -- to believe that our enemies are dumb, immoral, ignorant, and brainwashed. But the difference between you and some medieval peasant who thought that witches float and innocent women sink -- is narrower than you think. That person just started from a different set of assumptions, ones that they received due to the circumstances of their birth. Our personalities, too, are a function of geography and culture, things outside of our control, things whose influence is practically invisible to us--we're like fish that aren't aware of water. We think we swim because, given the options, it's the best choice. But we swim because we were born in water and know nothing else.



⚫ There are cultural forces that act as organizing principles. They are larger than us, and they influence us in powerful and subtle ways. There are phases of culture, observable in many points during history, when culture seems to want polarization. We move into two sides, and then go to war. This is an alchemical process, a dialectical process, it is part of how truth (in a cultural sense) is a created. Things that cannot coexist are held in opposition to each other, and each of us makes a personal choice. This is how the macrocosm and microcosm are brought together - the action in the Big World results in a change in the Personal World, which in turn affects the Big World. "As Above, So Below".


⚫ But we must still be careful. Because, as Terrence McKenna puts it, "Culture is not your friend." Culture wants things, and this does not have to line up with your personal needs or truths. The alchemical process of separation also manifests as political polarization. During this operation, all things are subsumed by the principle of separation. It is a kind of madness--a disconnect between the big world and the individual world. If your opinions differ from those of the pack, you will be cast out of that pack. During Separation, grey areas are seen as helping the enemy.

As an example, I made a remark to a friend, expressing skepticism about some health precaution which didn't seem supported by data. His side of the conversation shifted to convince me that the skepticism was dangerous, if we are not being 1000% safe at all times, we are killing everybody's grandma. Everything that reduces risk is compulsory.

And I can totally understand why (especially over here in NY) we need to talk about the quarantine almost fantatically. We are the epicenter of it, we have to take it more seriously than any other region in the country because we may have the most at stake.

And yet, we all break these rules at times. Given the tension between mental wellbeing and quarantine, I don't know anyone who hasn't chosen mental wellbeing at times. I de-mask when walking in the woods, but even that is a point of controversy. And as soon as you start an argument about this, people mentally assign you to the category of Grandma Murderer. So you have to be careful, social pressure is more powerful than ever right now. For good reason! A reason that protects us! Gurdjieff encourages us to respect these outer forms and rules while trying to maintain an inner freedom.




It is extremely hard work. My doubt has consumed an enormous amount of energy. But this is critical to the alchemical process which creates truth and meaning. In alchemy, once Separation is performed, the next step is Purification. This happens on a cultural level and also a personal level--we must get rid of the waste, the toxicity, the sickness and disease within us. Without self-doubt, it is invisible, we cannot hone in on it.



On really romantic evenings of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion.
          -Speed Levitch
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on June 08, 2020, 04:54:00 PM
W/R/T Covid safety, it's become fairly obvious to me of what some Bayesians call "not updating your priors".

They came to a decision on the threat of contagion, and simply haven't bothered to change their minds in light of new information.  You can see this on all sides, from the people who keep insisting the risk is low even as the infection and death tolls mount, to the people like your friend, who are convinced they can die from a piece of mail that hasn't been touched for three days.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 08, 2020, 05:04:50 PM
QuoteRegarding the people that you disagree with: it's really tempting -- and seductive -- to believe that our enemies are dumb, immoral, ignorant, and brainwashed. But the difference between you and some medieval peasant who thought that witches float and innocent women sink -- is narrower than you think. That person just started from a different set of assumptions, ones that they received due to the circumstances of their birth. Our personalities, too, are a function of geography and culture, things outside of our control, things whose influence is practically invisible to us--we're like fish that aren't aware of water. We think we swim because, given the options, it's the best choice. But we swim because we were born in water and know nothing else.

I reject this entirely, top to bottom.  If this were the case, people would not be able to change inside the environment in which they exist.  For example, Ben Franklin started out financially involved in the slave trade, and in a 9 month period, became an abolitionist (it is worth noting that his environment didn't change in the meantime).  Likewise, people can be born into one society and reject the bad (or good) parts of that society without contact from outside that society.

Also, this is an excuse to be an asshole.  "I can't help it, I watch Fox News/was born into the faith/am a redneck by birth and training."

Stupidity is the condition in which someone chooses to not think.  This is different than someone who has a lower than normal capacity to learn.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 08, 2020, 05:54:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 08, 2020, 05:04:50 PM
QuoteRegarding the people that you disagree with: it's really tempting -- and seductive -- to believe that our enemies are dumb, immoral, ignorant, and brainwashed. But the difference between you and some medieval peasant who thought that witches float and innocent women sink -- is narrower than you think. That person just started from a different set of assumptions, ones that they received due to the circumstances of their birth. Our personalities, too, are a function of geography and culture, things outside of our control, things whose influence is practically invisible to us--we're like fish that aren't aware of water. We think we swim because, given the options, it's the best choice. But we swim because we were born in water and know nothing else.

I reject this entirely, top to bottom.  If this were the case, people would not be able to change inside the environment in which they exist.  For example, Ben Franklin started out financially involved in the slave trade, and in a 9 month period, became an abolitionist (it is worth noting that his environment didn't change in the meantime).  Likewise, people can be born into one society and reject the bad (or good) parts of that society without contact from outside that society.

It sounds like you're disagreeing with a point I did not make: that people are 100% controlled by their culture and incapable of reflection or change, and therefore have no responsibility for anything.

If it were not the case that one's upbringing affects their personality, then you wouldn't see different cultures in different regions.  Everybody would come to their own conclusions freely and independently, so you wouldn't have red states and blue states.


You're saying that if you grew up during the witch trials, you wouldn't believe that witches float and innocent women sink. Why not?




Do you really think that your upbringing had no impact on what you are like as an adult? Do you think you explicitly chose every single thing that constitutes your personality? (And if so, where exactly did you get the framework to make those choices?)


Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: altered on June 08, 2020, 05:59:05 PM
I'm deleting my post. I had the same misreading Howl did and I'm in the middle of a spike of FURY like I get sometimes. Sorry.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 08, 2020, 06:17:06 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 08, 2020, 05:54:07 PM

It sounds like you're disagreeing with a point I did not make: that people are 100% controlled by their culture and incapable of reflection or change, and therefore have no responsibility for anything.

Fair enough, I read you wrong.


QuoteDo you really think that your upbringing had no impact on what you are like as an adult? Do you think you explicitly chose every single thing that constitutes your personality? (And if so, where exactly did you get the framework to make those choices?)

Naw.  But when I was in my 30s I tried to change myself deliberately, and to some extent succeeded for about 15 years.  I say "to some extent" because when it turned out to be a failed strategy, I snapped back to what I was when I was 34 with no effort whatsoever.  So I changed my behavior and my decisions, but not my actual self.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on June 08, 2020, 06:34:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 08, 2020, 06:17:06 PM
Naw.  But when I was in my 30s I tried to change myself deliberately, and to some extent succeeded for about 15 years.  I say "to some extent" because when it turned out to be a failed strategy, I snapped back to what I was when I was 34 with no effort whatsoever.  So I changed my behavior and my decisions, but not my actual self.

it's so interesting how there are layers of self

and the bottom layers, the really foundational ones, are hidden from view




It's part of what Gurdjieff means when he talks about how the subconscious should be regarded as the real consciousness.

What we perceive as consciousness - our thoughts, opinions, feelings, moods, reactions - is the part of the iceberg sticking up above the water's surface. There's a lot going on that we aren't necessarily aware of. Unconscious bias, associations, vestigial selves... the work of (some but not all) meditation is to bring this subconscious material into contact with the waking consciousness.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 09, 2020, 12:12:59 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 08, 2020, 06:34:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 08, 2020, 06:17:06 PM
Naw.  But when I was in my 30s I tried to change myself deliberately, and to some extent succeeded for about 15 years.  I say "to some extent" because when it turned out to be a failed strategy, I snapped back to what I was when I was 34 with no effort whatsoever.  So I changed my behavior and my decisions, but not my actual self.

it's so interesting how there are layers of self

and the bottom layers, the really foundational ones, are hidden from view




It's part of what Gurdjieff means when he talks about how the subconscious should be regarded as the real consciousness.

What we perceive as consciousness - our thoughts, opinions, feelings, moods, reactions - is the part of the iceberg sticking up above the water's surface. There's a lot going on that we aren't necessarily aware of. Unconscious bias, associations, vestigial selves... the work of (some but not all) meditation is to bring this subconscious material into contact with the waking consciousness.

Not sure if I'd go that far.  I am what I choose to be.  My subconscious *is* part of what informs that choice, but so are a ton of other things.

Example:  My feelings toward race were formed by a combination of two things.

1.  I grew up in an environment where I didn't see anything other than white people until the age of 8.

2.  When I met a Black person, I later asked my dad why her skin was dark.  He said, "Her people come from a very hot area near the equator.  Dark skin helps you survive there, so that's what developed in that area."

This is of course a simplification spoken to an 8 year old in 1976, but it made - and still makes - so much sense that I never really thought much about race after that...Until I moved to the states and watched people be victimized just for their race.  My conclusion at age 11 in 1979 was that people are generally bastards unless they make a distinct effort to not be bastards.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on August 07, 2020, 02:20:10 PM
I wanted to drop this here --

http://www.doremishock.com/beelzebub/TheCosmologyofBeelzebub.html

it's an essay on Beezlebub's Tales to His Grandson. Briefly, it describes the nature and role of the Cosmology presented in this book.

As an aside, because this is a Discordian forum, I want to mention the Discordian cosmology -- that the Principia Discordia (and to some extent, the Illuminatus! trilogy) gives us this story for what's going on in the universe. There was chaos, then there was stuff, it accretes into bureaucracy, then collapses into aftermath. In this world of human drama, we've got the curse of greyface, these scattered theophanies of Eris, individual papacy, the correspondence between Hermes and St. Gulik... stuff like that. It doesn't matter whether it's literally true or not, it's describing an arrangement of ideas. To be a Discordian (to some extent) is to interpret and internalize these ideas in a way that affects your inner being. In this context, we can see Cosmology as a tool for alignment, a way of organizing a contact between the big outer world and the subtle inner being.

The Cosmology presented in Beezlebub's Tales describes an incomplete universe, one in need of maintenance and repair. It also describes the human psyche as incomplete, in need of maintenance and repair. These things are broken and incomplete in symmetrical ways.

That is to say -- all these things happening at a global level --  It's also happening within us on a personal level. Our task is to join the two.

Here in the year 2020, I am reflecting on how I can unseat the Donald Trump in my heart. For I, too, am governed by a materialistic narcissist, a petty tyrant and strongman dictator, a dominator and coward, who often overrides my better nature. Trump's power doesn't come from him, it comes from similar energies present within all of us.

QuoteHow, then, can we approach this idea of cosmology, of meaning, harmony, and order, and incorporate it into a personal meaning that has daily relevance? Simply adopting a form and creating a set of rituals that acknowledge our position — which is what religion does, offering significant solaces but no truly practical solutions— isn't enough. There needs to be a physical, emotional, and intellectual component to cosmology.

Our cosmology, in other words, must become not just an abstraction or a philosophical exercise, but a cosmology of the psyche....

This challenge asks us to transpose ideas of the cosmos at large onto the template of our own being. As "cosmoses in miniature," as Gurdjieff called us, we contain within ourselves and our being the same origins, catastrophic collision events, and disharmonizations present in the cosmos-at-large, as well as the obligations for repair that devolve upon the angelic hierarchies in Beelzebub's Tales. This is, in our own case, a do-it-yourself universe; just as God cannot interfere with the cosmos in Beelzebub (even if He could, it's entirely uncertain He would know what to do), He cannot directly interfere with our own lives. It's up to us to undertake the necessary work for cosmic maintenance and repair: hence, theurgy, or inner work on behalf of God.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on August 07, 2020, 02:47:07 PM
I have a copy of Tales in my bookshelf.  I tried reading it.  I hurt my brain.

Now it sits there, bookmarked 20 pages in, mocking me.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on August 07, 2020, 03:02:41 PM
No blame for dropping it. It's a difficult, demanding book. And the intro really intends to dissuade and throw off the casual reader. I've been reading it for almost 3 years and I'm only 2/3rds of the way through.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Bu🤠ns on August 09, 2020, 12:58:48 AM
I think that's okay too---maybe that's how it's supposed to work. All Finnegan's Wakey 'n shit

Quote from: Cramulus on August 07, 2020, 02:20:10 PM
Here in the year 2020, I am reflecting on how I can unseat the Donald Trump in my heart. For I, too, am governed by a materialistic narcissist, a petty tyrant and strongman dictator, a dominator and coward, who often overrides my better nature. Trump's power doesn't come from him, it comes from similar energies present within all of us.

recently i heard Dr. Cornel West describing empathy as having "to be able to open your ego enough in order to get out of your narcissistic predicament and connect with somebody else"

That phrase "narcissistic predicament" really stuck with me...then i saw this lol.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: picoli on September 12, 2020, 10:27:01 PM
I love the discussion under this post! Thanks for filling my Saturday evening  :oops:

I hope you don't mind, that my capacity of intellectual output are exhausted. Nevertheless I want to share an experience with you. A couple of weeks ago, I swapped my desk chair for a laaaaarge exercise ball. I'm sorry, if this is inappropriate but I'm still shook. My flow is back and everytime I'm sitting on the ball I am SO creative and full of thoughts and it's just a normal exercise ball.  :eek: I don't want to recommend the brand because there's probably a lot of good ones but I can link an article which helped me a lot: https://www.einrichtungsradar.de/sitzball-test/.

Just wanted to share that with you.  :lol:
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fujikoma on September 13, 2020, 05:51:57 AM
I, too, bounce on balls while contemplating life's big questions.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: LMNO on September 14, 2020, 01:09:25 PM
Congratulations on acing your Turing test.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on October 08, 2020, 01:53:06 PM
The Foundation has been slowly getting up to speed with hosting online events. I've been to a few readings, meditation sessions, group discussions. It really isn't the same as doing it in person, but I guess it's what we're stuck with.

One little moment of insight I received recently -- I'm never sure if typing these things out will be useful to anybody else; I am not sure these experiences can really be communicated via text... but this thread is kind of a journal, so I'll share a little morsel of something that affected me.

At the end of a guided sensing session,
we are feeling completely aligned and centered and intentional
all the bands of consciousness are touching each other,
there is a point of contact between conscious and subconscious
it feels like a moment of being in the Real World

The guide says
"The world is looking out"

had a brief moment, just a flash, when I felt like the entire cosmos, if it was forced through a Cramulus-shaped hole... that's my conscious experience

felt like
the human is the small version of the Cosmos

or the whole cosmos
is the big version
of the cell






another week, we're talking about working with negative emotions

Gurdjieff used to basically troll people -- urge them to stay in contact with the stimulus that was causing this kneejerk reaction in them. At the priory, there used to be this super annoying guy, nobody wanted to be around him, everybody hated him... one day, he was like "That's it, I'm outta here. Mr. Gurdjieff, I'm leaving." Gurdjieff drove him to the train station. Everybody breathed a sigh of relief.

2 hours later, Gurdjieff's car came back to the priory... and both of them got out. Turns out Gurdjieff told the guy he'd pay him a salary to continue studying at the priory.

He told the others, "You need him." This annoying dude provided a force that they had to struggle with. Because learning to Live Good is not just about floating away on some euphoria cloud of mindful bliss. No, you need mindfulness when you're annoyed. When you're in the kneejerk reaction. When you are leaning away. That's when you can develop something.

G would say "you need a strong angel on one shoulder... and a strong devil on the other."

So, this week, we're working on staying with a negative emotion - seeing it, staying with it. Instead of just trying to get away from it, put it in a box, make it go away -- sit with it for a second. Observe it. Don't analyse, just observe.

There's a resistance to this. It's hard. There's something that doesn't want to be seen. And usually, when you see it, it goes away.

One woman phrased it, "If you see the dragon... if you're lucky, he'll give you a wink before he vanishes."







I've got this Discord server which is doing a weekly book club. It's also a discordian cabal. We're reading In Search of the Miraculous. This week, we're up to chapter 4. If you're interested in meeting and discussing this stuff (as I think it can really only be digested properly by groups), shoot me a PM.

Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Fujikoma on October 08, 2020, 05:29:06 PM
This thread, the Billy thread, and the useful insights and witty banter the members here have are part of what keeps me coming back here despite the fact that a lot of people wish I wouldn't. Always a thought-provoking read that encourages me to shift my perspective. Thanks for continuing to provide perspective, Cramulus.

But yeah, me continuing to check here, I've been trying to just observe, I'm not a good participant but that doesn't mean I can't find the content interesting. So yeah, time for me to go back to lurking.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: hooplala on January 12, 2021, 11:41:27 PM
Is the book club still meeting on Wednesdays? I'm usually busy but would love to check it out if i'm ever not.
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 13, 2021, 03:34:17 PM
Yes it is -- shoot me a PM if you want an invite! We're getting close to the end of In Search of the Miraculous, will probably finish that study some time in February.

We're also a Discordian cabal which talks about non-Gurdjieff things.
There are a few little subgroups, like a film club which meets and watches movies together, a group that is exploring the philosophy of Deleuze & Guitar.



Today is Gurdjieff's Life Day, by the way. Happy January 13th!
Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Cramulus on January 19, 2021, 01:26:06 PM
Yesterday, I completed my first reading of Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson. I started reading it in November 2016. I actually read the entire first volume (out of three) because someone online told me that was the best way to understand Gurdjieff. LOL, it wasn't. After a few hundred pages, I gave up and decided that if I wanted to learn anything, I'd have to go to a meeting with real people.

As I've mentioned in this thread, Beelzebub's Tales is a real challenge to read. Complicated ideas & symbols are shared in a torturously worded way which forces you to maintain sharp concentration. It's not a book you can skim or read while drowsy. In fact, a good chunk of the first chapter consists of Gurdjieff trying to turn you away. If you're looking for an excuse to stop reading, he gives you many.

Is it worth the read? I have a hard time answering that because the answer is so subjective. In an Aftermathematics Research Cabal meeting, Enki once asked me if he were to 'dig in that yard', if he would find anything. How could I answer that? How would I predict if you, personally, will find the treasure Gurdjieff buried so carefully? It's like asking if you'll get anything from reading the Bible, or the Principia Discordia. The answer's 50% book, 50% you.

Enki was kind of asking... is there a real meat to it? or is it hard for hard's sake, like some mental treadmill?

It's got a lot going on. It's said to be written "on seven levels", and the words themselves are only one level. Thinking about what you just read often reveals more meaning, maybe that's part of it... And yes, the effort required to dig up these insights does give them a sort of aura. You "paid" for them, after all, invested time and effort into finding them... It's interesting to observe how that works, internally.

Maybe the better question is, are you interested in alchemy? In how lead turns into gold? in how dreaming consciousness can turn into a true waking consciousness? Because the work needed to do that, in the self, and the work needed to read the book, are analogical processes.

But where I'm sitting right now, it feels wrong to describe the book in terms of what it might give you, like understanding it is some accomplishment valuable all by itself, an achievement to add to your character sheet. I found that I had good results approaching the book not as a piece of content, but as a process. In order to read Beelzebub's Tales, I needed to be in a certain state: A state of interest, a desire for a certain something (something which may be better to leave unstated).

At one point in In Search of the Miraculous, Ouspensky says that something omitted from many spiritual / philosophical searches is that the 'big cosmic questions and mysteries' might only be fruitful to contemplate when you're in a certain state. You might call it an emotional state. Receptive, but also capable of creating internal order or disorder. What is this state, and how do you arrive at it? This is a holy question.

because whatever it is I'm doing with my life .... I'm usually too zoomed in to see it and evaluate it. I can only see it from that state.

At the very end of Beelzebub's Tales, Gurdjieff includes a From the Author section where he addresses the audience directly. He explains, in [relatively] plain language, why he wrote the book the way he did, and what his message is. If I've been blindfolded and feeling an elephant spot by spot, that essay is like a little miniature elephant. Much easier to feel the entire shape, when it's small like that. It feels like the book desposited enough material underneath the surface that when I read this essay, it shined with a real gnostic intensity. If I'd read it before reading the whole freakin book, before I had obsessed over and integrated these ideas, I don't know that it would have had the same richness. I almost wish I'd started reading the book, back in November 2016, with that chapter.

In the first chapter, Gurdjieff says his goal is to "destroy, mercilessly . . . the beliefs and views about everything existing in the world."




tl;dr
he succeeded



Title: Re: Reality Safari: Gurdjieff
Post by: Galerson on January 26, 2021, 06:31:50 PM
I'm learning about Kanō Jigorō. He founded Judo and was still alive in the 1920s. He had his own philosophy. He believed you can gain victory by yielding to strength. I'm just a white belt so am just starting out. And of course COVID-19 really limits what we can do right now.