Have you ever noticed that, when someone comes close to an ideology without quite matching it, they get dumped on hard by members of that ideology? Example: "mainstream GOP" being crapped all over by the tea party. Or, for that matter, the way sectarian violence overshadows inter-religious violence? If you were a Lutheran or a Calvinist in 1630, you weren't worried about Muslims, you were worried about Catholics.
A number of years ago, I was tossed out of the Arizona democratic party. My card was invalidated, and I got a nice letter saying how I wasn't "on message". This was because I argued that the dems should stop pushing gun control, and I had mentioned that I don't give a damn about Palestine. Never mind that I am a huge supporter of single-payer health insurance, SSI, SNAP, Gay marriage, and just about every other item on the agenda.
I don't mind being tossed, really. I didn't like them anyway. But the fact is, you can automatically assume that the most vitriol aimed in your direction will come from people that are very close to you on the issue at hand, not the people on the other side of the aisle.
I call this the "traitor complex". It occurs when people have their uniform buttoned up so tight that it interrupts the blood flow to their brain, causing them to rage out the moment anyone seems to be drifting away from the strict message represented by the uniform. An outright enemy is a given, and can be accepted as such, but a heretic must be purged.
Example closer to home:
Back during the privilege arguments, some people referred to other PDers as "Part of the Problem", which is fucking ridiculous on any scale. Someone who hasn't thought things through says "women should probably learn self-defense", and suddenly THEY are part of the rape culture. Shit, they're WORSE than the guy dropping rophynol in some girl's drink, or at least the EQUIVALENT, because they didn't understand part of the problem. And then the same people that do this sort of shit shake their heads in disgusted amazement that people actually listen to Rush Limbaugh when he calls feminists "feminazis". Of course the people called "part of the problem" don't run out and become dittoheads, but they probably aren't an ally anymore, either. They tried to help and got their heads bitten off for it, so they just walk away, when an actual EXPLANATION would have solidified their support.
There are two reasons that this happens. The first is that when people look for enemies, they look for them close to "the border". Enemies in direct proximity. This means that they see the very worst case when looking at someone who isn't in complete agreement.
The second comes back to huffing farts under the blanket. The ideologue sees the heretic as a means to increase his or her standing with the other fanatics under the blanket. Pointing out that the heretic is "part of the problem" allows them to gain standing with the fart-huffing crowd.
There's no real excuse for this sort of behavior in Discordianism.
Hear, here!
There's probably some sort of fancy psychology term for this sort of thinking, but I like yours better.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 07, 2013, 04:40:17 PM
Hear, here!
There's probably some sort of fancy psychology term for this sort of thinking, but I like yours better.
I had discussed this with Nigel, and she thought there was a term for it as well, but couldn't remember it. I like this term, because it lacks any vestige of passive-aggressive labeling.
It's also accurate. Treason is an attack upon the tribe by a member of that tribe. It is one of the biggest taboos that humans have.
One possible reason I've considered is that it's because it's impossible to pretend the person doesn't know what they are talking about. If they agree on 95% of the issues, then it's understood that they are conversant in the understanding of the group and its aims and its goals. However, that deviation from the Party Line is more disagreeable than complete disagreement, as that can be explained away by ignorance, indoctrination etc. Instead, this is someone who understands things almost exactly the way you do, but won't agree on those fine details.
That's much harder to explain away. Much more difficult too, as this person inherently has more credibility than an opponent whose ideologically is diametrically opposed.
Quote from: Cain on November 07, 2013, 04:54:05 PM
That's much harder to explain away. Much more difficult too, as this person inherently has more credibility than an opponent whose ideologically is diametrically opposed.
This explains why the "concerned tea partier" troll works so fucking well.
Good point, Cain. The usual arguments won't work.
And if it's down to the details, wouldn't that also mean politics rather than ideas?
"The party says no-- Feminists can't wear fishnets."
-Jello Biafra
Excellently put. This is of the main reasons (second only to sheer laziness and apathy) that I don't do "movements"
On a long enough timeline, all movements will devolve into politics and fart huffing.
Doesn't matter if my ideology aligns 99% with feminism, anyone asks me if I'm a feminist, I'll tell them to go fuck themselves.
Not part of the solution or part of the problem. Ram your false dichotomy where only a traffic cop will find it :argh!:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on November 07, 2013, 05:34:36 PM
Ram your false dichotomy where only a traffic cop will find it :argh!:
:spittake:
Reason #270912 I sometimes love P3nt.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 07, 2013, 05:38:35 PM
Reason #270912 I sometimes love P3nt.
P3nt is great for the occasional loving, but you keeps those moments far apart. Your delicate bits need time to recover.
All that salt water tends to chafe.
P3nT is an irredeemable asshole. I loath him with every pore of my being. It's why we are so good at drinking in each others company. He disdains my willow thin backbone and sniveling not-quite-lucid rambling, and I think he's an unreconstructed wanker.
I also know he could never accept me saying "P3nTs alright, yanno? He's a pretty cool dude!"
Quote from: Payne on November 07, 2013, 06:58:29 PM
I also know he could never accept me saying "P3nTs alright, yanno? He's a pretty cool dude!"
Because then he'd know you were lying.
Or ... exactly where I want him :evil:
OP: BINGO.
:mittens:
Everything you say is true. It seems that in all ideologically-driven movements, militant hardliners do more to hurt the movement than help it as people who share their beliefs are pushed away simply for not being quite so fundamentalist as them.
As someone who spent his teenage years politicking with unwashed far-left socialist types, I saw an initially united front repeatedly split and splinter into smaller and successively more pathetic groups with no influence over the years and so I now appreciate, perhaps more than most, the value of tolerance of minor differences within a movement.
The fact that you were thrown out of the Democratic Party for merely opposing them on one issue, especially an issue that some of the big shots in that party would agree with you on, is quite similar to an experience I had with the Socialist Party over here. Essentially, I was too honest about the tyranny of their Soviet idols and this was a constant source of conflict between us. My being pushed out of the party was for the best anyway as I now completely disagree with their ideology and no doubt would have ended up like this whether I kept associating with those useful idiots or not.
Anyway, in Discordianism, a system of thought that by its very nature attracts people from all walks of life and is particularly attractive to freethinkers and those who are otherwise "different", it's more important than ever to accept people for who they are, so long as they think for themselves, and instead focus on opposing those who would have us lose both the ability and the right to think for ourselves.
tl;dr: a truckload of :mittens: upon your house, Reverend
Oh and hi everyone!
Hi there, Malachite!
Nigel? Long time no see!
It's nice to see that the old PDF crew have survived these past few years relatively intact.
Quote from: Malachite on November 09, 2013, 03:15:21 AM
Nigel? Long time no see!
It's nice to see that the old PDF crew have survived these past few years relatively intact.
The very same!
Yeah, I think most of us are hanging in here pretty well.
Whoa! Check out the woodwork! This is awesome! Welcome back, Malachite!
Cool, Malachite's back!
It's good to see you guys again! o/
Quote from: Malachite on November 09, 2013, 02:01:46 AM
Everything you say is true. It seems that in all ideologically-driven movements, militant hardliners do more to hurt the movement than help it as people who share their beliefs are pushed away simply for not being quite so fundamentalist as them.
As someone who spent his teenage years politicking with unwashed far-left socialist types, I saw an initially united front repeatedly split and splinter into smaller and successively more pathetic groups with no influence over the years and so I now appreciate, perhaps more than most, the value of tolerance of minor differences within a movement.
The fact that you were thrown out of the Democratic Party for merely opposing them on one issue, especially an issue that some of the big shots in that party would agree with you on, is quite similar to an experience I had with the Socialist Party over here. Essentially, I was too honest about the tyranny of their Soviet idols and this was a constant source of conflict between us. My being pushed out of the party was for the best anyway as I now completely disagree with their ideology and no doubt would have ended up like this whether I kept associating with those useful idiots or not.
Anyway, in Discordianism, a system of thought that by its very nature attracts people from all walks of life and is particularly attractive to freethinkers and those who are otherwise "different", it's more important than ever to accept people for who they are, so long as they think for themselves, and instead focus on opposing those who would have us lose both the ability and the right to think for ourselves.
tl;dr: a truckload of :mittens: upon your house, Reverend
Oh and hi everyone!
Well, you're a sight for sore eyes.