Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Or Kill Me => Topic started by: The Johnny on April 22, 2019, 03:38:22 pm

Title: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: The Johnny on April 22, 2019, 03:38:22 pm
And you shouldnt care about if they care or not either.

Is expression intrinsecally an act of communication? I propose that it is not.

This repugnant person named Anna Freud once said, that when we express ourselves we are trascending our "autistic tendencies" towards a social "communication directed towards others", to be recognized and praised by others... but she was wrong in this as she was wrong in so many other things.

If the only thing that differentiates an "autistic activity" which is gratifying but without form, from an elaborate  polished product, is the search from self gratification to a gratification by others, then they cant be technically called too different from one another. Its the same godamn thing, its all the ultimate search for gratification, be it in a masturbatory manner in the first sense or a voyeuristic masturbatory manner in the second sense. Not only one would be jacking off for pleasure, but demanding that those observing like it! How unreasonably demanding!

Perhaps the real mark of craftmanship is about transforming this formless idea that you have in your mind, and making it tangible, polishing, correcting and perfecting it in the process... its like diving for jewels from a wrecked ship in the ocean that is our mind, which we retrieve and then restore them to their former glory.

Thinking about an audience in the creative process and seeking for them to accept or even worse, to praise your work is just pure corrupting madness... its the perspective of a salesman or a seducer, that implies stooping low to the stylistics, themes and fantasies of the lowest common denominator.

At what point, does thinking about your potential or current audience, degrades your entire work into a glorified type of "fanservice"?
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Cramulus on April 22, 2019, 04:29:28 pm
I think about this a lot.

In my front pocket, I keep this little gem of advice from David Bowie: Never play to the galleries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNbnef_eXBM). There's something that made you want to "do art" in the first place. Honor that, not the audience. Why are you creating stuff, really?


That being said, I'm in a space where my audience is not ready. And because my art is running live action role playing events, big interactive weekends -- without an audience, the art doesn't exist.

I take an annual sabbatical to Europe, and I play games outside of my region. I get energized by the cool way they work. Then I come back to new england, where the game format/style has been crystalized for 20 years, static. I try to bring home the Fresh New Take, the wild uncertainty, the freedom from the old forms.

And often, the reception I get is like Marty Mcfly doing a wild guitar solo for the 1950s bopper crowd. Everybody's hands are over their ears. They don't get it.

I know their kids are gonna love it, though.


I find myself planning events, but having to sand off the edges, water it down, make it more accessible to someone who's only had the same meal for 100 weekends. I try to tease them out, move their expectations just beyond their existing frame of reference.

I've learned that the audience doesn't know what it wants until it has it. People read about a larp concept and go "OMFG that's awful, that will never work, I'd hate it"... but then in actual live play, it does work. So I find myself doing this sleight of hand all the time - having a spoon full of sugar handy so that they will actually taste the strange new idea.

Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: LMNO on April 22, 2019, 04:56:40 pm
Musically, this has been a debate in my head for years.  If there is a joy in the playing, and that's the only reason to play, then there should be nothing wrong with staying in your garage and being joyful with no one but you (and any band mates) to hear.

But we are a social species, and there is a fundamental difference when playing your music in front of a receptive audience.  It's a tangibly different kind of joy.

Of course, there's a tangibly different kind of sorrow when it doesn't go well, too.

And once recording gets involved, you can either make a document of the event or creation and keep it on your hard drive, or you can start a soundcloud page.  And if the song is just for you, there's no reason to release it, ever.  But if you do decide to release it, why are you doing it?  For others' approval?  For their money?  Why the hell should I care about whether you like my music, if I'm doing it to please myself?

But again, a human craves approval, especially regarding what skills they think they have. 

So there's a tension between "art for art's sake" and "art for enjoyment by the group". 
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Al Qədic on April 22, 2019, 05:21:03 pm
I've learned that the audience doesn't know what it wants until it has it.
This. Not only will audiences deride good ideas, but they'll actively clamor for bad ones. This is a sentiment that one of my favorite YouTubers holds; she used to be part of the Brony analysis community, back when the show was just teetering on the edge of disaster and the fan base at large seemed decently sensible. Then she noticed a trend in the show's writing that was developing. They were playing to the wishes of the Brony community. Not the actual little-girl target audience...the grown adults who, all other crude MLP jokes aside, don't have a bone in their body for showunning or writing.

We got episodes centering around tertiary characters who didn't need that kind of development.

The fans wanted more screen time for a princess; we get an episode that, whoopsie-daisy, mangled its message about self harm and depression.

Fans wanted more emphasis on lore over actual shit happening, so we get arcs of random important wizards coming almost out of nowhere and their magical artifacts that serve as little more than plot McGuffins.

The 100th episode of the show was a slice of life about all the background characters.

Points for trying, guys, but that shit isn't what makes a show worth watching.

And then they redeemed a crazy dictator and made her into a Good Personô again, but sent a little foal to Hell. And it's been downhill from there. :lulz:
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: The Johnny on April 22, 2019, 08:24:03 pm

***Cram***

Tbh my position which reflects what Bowie said is a very idealistic take on creating. Only someone that doesnt care that much about their own wellbeing or doesnt have urgent neccesities that are expected to be solved by their creation can do this... freedom of expression, to call it something... freedom of expression that is not bound by monetary concerns.

Like, i dont want to sound like an asshole, theres people that in some way or another get stuck in this situation where they have to "fanservice" because otherwise they wont pay the bills or put food on the table... i get that, and its ok... but i still think thats more providing a service than creating something authentic.

To clarify, my rant was more about people that despite not having monetary limitations choose to fanservice because what they want is this narcissistic gratification... to me thats just the pure perversion of creation and missing the point.

And while i can symphatize with people that have to compromise doing half creation and half service... if its just full service then they should really check their priorities and maybe get a different job. It sickens my stomach when a person manipulates someone else for profit, even if the manipulation isnt harmful. (i dont mean this towards you in specific, i mean in general)
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: The Johnny on April 22, 2019, 08:43:06 pm
***LMNO***

Everyone has a different take from their respective field of creation (that is ok, im just pointing it out)... that being said im an academic creator.

You speak of the joy in itself of playing music, and if that is the sole purpose of doing it, then why share it... perhaps its not fundamentally about the money since in this scenario that wasnt a problem... but the thing is, profiting from something you didnt even need to profit from opens up a realm of possibilities, like being able to budget doing more things or possibly even to create as a full time job.

I mean, sure, we all seek, i dont know if approval, but acknowledgement? But solely seeking approval is a bit of a slippery slope where one can forget what they felt the need to create and devolve to creating what they think others want.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: The Johnny on April 22, 2019, 08:46:28 pm
I've learned that the audience doesn't know what it wants until it has it.
This. Not only will audiences deride good ideas, but they'll actively clamor for bad ones. This is a sentiment that one of my favorite YouTubers holds; she used to be part of the Brony analysis community, back when the show was just teetering on the edge of disaster and the fan base at large seemed decently sensible. Then she noticed a trend in the show's writing that was developing. They were playing to the wishes of the Brony community. Not the actual little-girl target audience...the grown adults who, all other crude MLP jokes aside, don't have a bone in their body for showunning or writing.

We got episodes centering around tertiary characters who didn't need that kind of development.

The fans wanted more screen time for a princess; we get an episode that, whoopsie-daisy, mangled its message about self harm and depression.

Fans wanted more emphasis on lore over actual shit happening, so we get arcs of random important wizards coming almost out of nowhere and their magical artifacts that serve as little more than plot McGuffins.

The 100th episode of the show was a slice of life about all the background characters.

Points for trying, guys, but that shit isn't what makes a show worth watching.

And then they redeemed a crazy dictator and made her into a Good Personô again, but sent a little foal to Hell. And it's been downhill from there. :lulz:

Thats sort of what nauseates me, it transitions from the terrain of creative writing/drawing to the terrain of product engineering guided by focus groups (which the fans play the part of).
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: altered on April 22, 2019, 09:13:59 pm
Question:

Is it not possible to /have both/? Can you not take enjoyment in the art of that /in-between/ space, balancing your wants with an audienceís? If you pull it off masterfully, is that not art itself?

Why is ďproviding a serviceĒ contrasted with ďmaking artĒ, when the service itself can be considered art?

Obvious answer: nothing new is happening, itís safe, pandering to a crowd.

But me, I donít like rejecting something being art simply because itís been done before. If thatís the case, the last art I know of in any medium was in 2011, if you have a very strict definition of ďbeen done beforeĒ. If you have a much looser definition, itís all been exactly the fucking same since prehistory.

Fuck that. Entertainment can be art. Repetition can be art, fuck, thatís the point of techno /and/ a whole new wave of avant-death metal, listen to Legion of Andromeda for Christís sake. Art just has to mean /something/ to /someone/ in my opinion. Thatís it, thatís the bar. Put a piece of dogshit on a plate, if it tweaks someone somewhere the right way and starts some fire inside them, who the /fuck/ is anyone to say that isnít art?

We see, in snobbypants art circles, talk about ďfound artĒ and ďnatural artĒ. A photographer does nothing but put their iPhone up to a fern unrolling and they nearly drop the phone and take the picture from trying to catch it. Something happens and it ends up a weird vertical smear of background warping into this spiral fern. ďAh, such majesty!Ē say rich white people who want to feel somehow superior to everyone else.

The art there is a bunch of shit this human barely even impacted save to put it out into the world. If that can be art (and I think it can) then anything, anywhere, anytime, can be art. Something can become art later on after ages of having a non-art nature.

The line between art and entertainment is imaginary, and the line between regular art and fine art is even less than imaginary: itís stupidity. Two people can do identical things, but somehow the first one was a moron and the second one is a genius. Fine art is a function of how good you are at bullshitting explanations on the fly, and how well known you are to art snobs. Thatís it. It has nothing to do with the art itself.

And if you are making something, itís art if youíre putting yourself into it, if youíre getting that catharsis, whether you play to an audience or not. If you made it and you felt more than you would stamping out license plates, itís art. Itís yours. Feel proud.

Thatís my take.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: The Johnny on April 22, 2019, 09:35:43 pm

Something that I omitted from my OP was that i got inspired to write this based on two things: forum posting and my book.

-In a purely mental draft i thought of, i was thinking of how everything we write in a forum is talking about ourselves in one way or another, a very narcissistic activity... and how in a sense nobody cares about us and what we say, not that they should mind you... and how if we want to earn attention, we put enough effort to our words, to earn that attention... but in that process, our original and baseline "ME ME ME" gets transformed into something greater, even if it doesnt appear to be about ourselves anymore, deep down it is... something among the lines of transmuting our self centered brain turds into something of value... thats kind of why the OP has references to narcissistic gratification even if the original draft got scrapped.

-And like creating an academic book is kind of weird and thats my personal position regarding creation... in this case its not about the joy of reading or writing, because the kind of texts i have to tackle its like pulling fucking teeth alongside with the citations, formatting and making it comprehensible its kind of a weird compulsion of forced labour if i might say so. So why write it? Because its an argumentative critique that i cant leave unsaid and have a clean conscience... and i mean, even tho the process is arduous work and theres no joy, it does bring me some peace because thru that work the thoughts get structured and well defined, like an ideological cleaning and sorting exersice within my own mind... and why publish it eventually? I mean, an argument and a critique is a message after all, so if a message is to be known it has to be published after all.

Perhaps im a very bitter person, and i can strive to someday create out of joy.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Con-troll on April 22, 2019, 10:07:40 pm
The best ways to get audience to care is something like letting the mic feedback for a minute or threatening their life by throwing live grenades at them. Also nudity, although it has lost it's power due the actionsd of the damn liberals :argh!:.

All and all, trying to get people to care about anything qith little or no importance to theiur lifes is always destructive. That care ia taken from theiur families and loved onesd.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: The Johnny on April 23, 2019, 06:08:36 pm
Question:

Is it not possible to /have both/? Can you not take enjoyment in the art of that /in-between/ space, balancing your wants with an audienceís? If you pull it off masterfully, is that not art itself?

Why is ďproviding a serviceĒ contrasted with ďmaking artĒ, when the service itself can be considered art?

Obvious answer: nothing new is happening, itís safe, pandering to a crowd.

But me, I donít like rejecting something being art simply because itís been done before. If thatís the case, the last art I know of in any medium was in 2011, if you have a very strict definition of ďbeen done beforeĒ. If you have a much looser definition, itís all been exactly the fucking same since prehistory.

Fuck that. Entertainment can be art. Repetition can be art, fuck, thatís the point of techno /and/ a whole new wave of avant-death metal, listen to Legion of Andromeda for Christís sake. Art just has to mean /something/ to /someone/ in my opinion. Thatís it, thatís the bar. Put a piece of dogshit on a plate, if it tweaks someone somewhere the right way and starts some fire inside them, who the /fuck/ is anyone to say that isnít art?

We see, in snobbypants art circles, talk about ďfound artĒ and ďnatural artĒ. A photographer does nothing but put their iPhone up to a fern unrolling and they nearly drop the phone and take the picture from trying to catch it. Something happens and it ends up a weird vertical smear of background warping into this spiral fern. ďAh, such majesty!Ē say rich white people who want to feel somehow superior to everyone else.

The art there is a bunch of shit this human barely even impacted save to put it out into the world. If that can be art (and I think it can) then anything, anywhere, anytime, can be art. Something can become art later on after ages of having a non-art nature.

The line between art and entertainment is imaginary, and the line between regular art and fine art is even less than imaginary: itís stupidity. Two people can do identical things, but somehow the first one was a moron and the second one is a genius. Fine art is a function of how good you are at bullshitting explanations on the fly, and how well known you are to art snobs. Thatís it. It has nothing to do with the art itself.

And if you are making something, itís art if youíre putting yourself into it, if youíre getting that catharsis, whether you play to an audience or not. If you made it and you felt more than you would stamping out license plates, itís art. Itís yours. Feel proud.

Thatís my take.

Not even a compromise, but what i could think of as a synthesis of this sort of dialectic i established, is to create something for a given target audience, without taking into account if they would like it or not. Im talking at the level of personal intention regardless of the manifestation of it; maybe its about personal integrity in your creation even if its a turd and even if its not "original".

Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on April 23, 2019, 07:15:10 pm
For me, art is INHERENTLY about communication. Maybe that's because I'm more of a propagandist than a proper artist, but fuck it I make art and sometimes I get paid for it, so I'm allowed to have opinions here. If something fails to communicate what I intended, or at least strike some kind of chord, I consider it a failure. It doesn't matter if the audience likes the fuckin thing, I just want them to get hit in the face with it.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: hooplala on April 23, 2019, 07:22:15 pm
I agree art is communication, though I would argue not every artist is actually in tune with what they are communicating. I also suspect whatever the receiver receives is more important than what the artist intended to communicate.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on April 23, 2019, 07:28:48 pm
I agree art is communication, though I would argue not every artist is actually in tune with what they are communicating. I also suspect whatever the receiver receives is more important than what the artist intended to communicate.

I agree what is received is more important, but I feel like sometimes this is used as a cop out for artists who don't want to get better at making their art say what they meant. If you make something and people interpret it in a way that you didn't mean and don't like, you need to examine what it is you're putting down that's being picked up that way and modify what you're doing. Sometimes an unexpected reaction can be a magical thing, and that's worth keeping a door open for.

I'm not remembering the exact quote or the source, but there was a piece of advice to writers or artists that went more or less "dig in deeply to the specific to find the universal." If you're strictly communicating, it's tempting to keep things as precise and surface level as possible. It reduces the risk of misinterpretation. But the surface isn't where the feelings are, it isn't where you can connect on that deep level that differentiates art from other things humans do. "Someone I love died" is communication. "He was" is art.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: hooplala on April 23, 2019, 07:36:06 pm
I agree art is communication, though I would argue not every artist is actually in tune with what they are communicating. I also suspect whatever the receiver receives is more important than what the artist intended to communicate.

I agree what is received is more important, but I feel like sometimes this is used as a cop out for artists who don't want to get better at making their art say what they meant. If you make something and people interpret it in a way that you didn't mean and don't like, you need to examine what it is you're putting down that's being picked up that way and modify what you're doing. Sometimes an unexpected reaction can be a magical thing, and that's worth keeping a door open for.

I'm not remembering the exact quote or the source, but there was a piece of advice to writers or artists that went more or less "dig in deeply to the specific to find the universal." If you're strictly communicating, it's tempting to keep things as precise and surface level as possible. It reduces the risk of misinterpretation. But the surface isn't where the feelings are, it isn't where you can connect on that deep level that differentiates art from other things humans do. "Someone I love died" is communication. "He was" is art.

Absolutely agree 100%.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 13, 2019, 01:18:49 pm
I'm faced with a dichotomy. I gotta create. Like in an ideal world, every waking moment would be art. But it's not an ideal world. It's a fucking clusterfuck of a place, filled with deranged apes who demand I pay them for food and shelter. So I gotta devote a whole bunch of time and energy to collecting these tiny pieces of imaginary paper (yeah, they ran out of trees so we're using pretend paper now)

So I go from every waking hour creating art, to whenever I can find a spare minute, after collecting enough imaginary paper that I don't starve to death. Unless I can kill two birds with one stone and create art in exchange for imaginary paper. So my creations are dictated to me by fussy monkeys.

Fuck it, it's still better than the alternative
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Drooone on June 22, 2019, 11:18:43 am
I've a tendency to just create. If people like it, people like it. Otherwise I'm not really too fussed. I say that because pretty much from my teenage years I've been raised on various social media platforms etc, so to a degree I crave validation. Can't help but post some of my music there now and again, and I do enjoy the idea of having an audience that appreciates what I do.

But I do my best to let what I create evolve on it's own, which has taken it to some interesting places. Tend to keep my more "creative" and "experimental" stuff to myself; and to satisfy the other part of my ego which relies on validation, I make stuff thats accessible to people, usually about stuff everybody can relate to, or music so absurd that it's entertaining to my small-ish group of friends.

I do cycle wildly between not giving a shit and giving alot of shits about it, though. I feel personally that my music as an extention of myself and clinging onto it as a part of my identity can be a huge, huuuge barrier my creativity in alot of ways, and when I put that stuff out there expecting people to understand, I'm just sniffing my own arse in public and most people aren't really down with that, most of the time. That's why I try to keep some space between me and what I create and try to create and I try to make music I otherwise have no personal interest and attachment to.
Title: Your audience doesnt care
Post by: Fannienaild on July 24, 2019, 05:48:41 pm
Thanks Cindy  I wont worry so much since he is acting like his normal self..
Is that your new puppy from HIMEOBS in your post?  How adorable
Title: Re: Your audience doesnt care
Post by: Frontside Back on July 24, 2019, 08:12:33 pm
Thanks Cindy  I wont worry so much since he is acting like his normal self..
Is that your new puppy from Dreamland in your post?  How adorable

_____
XEVIL (http://salexrumer.site): NEW! the best program for solving any CAPTCHA, including Google ReCaptcha-2
Wait are these actual bots or just dumb ordinary people pretending to be bots?
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: altered on July 24, 2019, 08:38:42 pm
Theyíre bots. They pull posts from all sorts of sites and reuse them (or, increasingly often, remixed parts of them) based on keywords. I donít know what keywords triggered this specific one, but I promise thatís a bot. Iíve seen hundreds of these.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: The Johnny on July 24, 2019, 09:56:36 pm

It's funny how similar newcomer pinealists sound like bots and viceversa; if it actually posted in the Haiku threads it might have even gotten some "mittens".  :fnord:
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Frontside Back on July 25, 2019, 08:08:28 am
Either AI is getting pretty impressive, or pinealists never were.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: altered on July 25, 2019, 01:24:34 pm
Either AI is getting pretty impressive, or pinealists never were.

The pinealists were overtaken by chatbots a decade ago, easy.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Sepia on July 25, 2019, 08:53:43 pm
I don't make art but I do make food and I've done that for a long enough of a while and I've been in most of the places from grotesque giant kitchen hells that support hospitals to michelin fine-dining 28 servings and for the people who eat it there's a world of difference but less so for myself. As long as I know that you get what you expected and perhaps a little more and I was able to do what I wanted I'm happy because in that context that's freedom enough

then again, I find nothing wrong with salesmen or seducers in the artosphere as long as it decently performed and not overplayed

see season 8 of got for definition of fanservice
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: Pergamos on July 26, 2019, 12:31:08 am
Either AI is getting pretty impressive, or pinealists never were.

The pinealists were overtaken by chatbots a decade ago, easy.

Longer than that.  I'm pretty sure RAW did some writing using an algorithm.
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: altered on July 26, 2019, 02:56:02 am
Algorithmic writing predates RAW. In fact, it predates computers.

I forget which one, but one of the Surrealist poets played with mathematical poetry. Words assigned numbers basically at random, then iterate through an algorithm. But thatís not a chatbot, which can repeatedly respond without the author continuing to write new text down.

Chatbots prior to a decade ago were ELIZA and similar ďmadlibsĒ styled fill-in-the-blank boilerplate garbage that failed the Turing Test at the first five minutes, and never could have made an apparently on topic post in a forum like ours.

Then someone got clever and started using Markov chains, which was a bit better but usually made random gibberish. If I recall correctly, This Is The Correct Motorcycle came from one of those in the IRC, about a year before I originally joined?

About a decade ago, things changed.

Markov chains are the low level go to still, but the data is cleaner, because thereís only three or four typing styles anyone uses now: technically correct, informal but full words, txtspk, and Aunt Sarahís Special Facebook Post .... Very Important!!!!!!!.

This wasnít the case before around 2008 or so, where any given person would use an essentially random mixture of of the above, plus 1337sp33k, Little kid Version Of Aunt Sarah Except i Dont know When You use Capitals So I do It randomly, and a few other oddities that havenít survived. (Yell and scream and get locked in a rubber room if you remember .........broody anime villain teenager............. heh....)

But the big change was mixing the boilerplate responses of ELIZA type bots with markov chains and spinners (random thesaurus substitutions). The combination of these three meant that you could stay about ninety percent definitely grammatically accurate, not be obviously pulling from a predefined list, and be able to ad lib a response based loosely on how others have responded to similar stuff in the past.

That was when pinealists stopped passing the Turing Test. Even the best of them are a step below the new breed of chatbot. They hover in the grey space between old Markov chains (they have a distinctive typing style that doesnít vary often) and new bots (theyíre incapable of pretending to do more than string together gobbledygook).
Title: Re: Your audience doesn't care
Post by: The Johnny on July 26, 2019, 03:18:42 am

Null, thats genuinely funny, thanks for that.  :lulz: