Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Techmology and Scientism => Topic started by: Cain on September 12, 2008, 04:22:43 PM

Title: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Cain on September 12, 2008, 04:22:43 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/sep/11/creationism.education

Michael Reiss, director of education at the Royal Society, says excluding discussion of creationism and intelligent design from science lessons could put some children off science completely.

The Rev Prof Michael Reiss, director of education at the Royal Society, said that excluding alternatives to scientific explanations for the origin of life and the universe from science lessons was counterproductive and would alienate some children from science altogether.

He said that around one in 10 children comes from a family with creationist beliefs. "My experience after having tried to teach biology for 20 years is if one simply gives the impression that such children are wrong, then they are not likely to learn much about the science," he said.

"I think a better way forward is to say to them 'look, I simply want to present you with the scientific understanding of the history of the universe and how animals and plants and other organisms evolved'."
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: LMNO on September 12, 2008, 04:23:35 PM
Sounds like they were already alienated from science before they got there.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Voodoo on September 12, 2008, 04:31:52 PM
repost:
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i183/seaeagle_2006/teach_both_theories.jpg)
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Vene on September 12, 2008, 10:51:12 PM
If this isn't a repost I will be sorely disappointed.
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4189/creationistscientificjh2.gif)
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Kai on September 13, 2008, 03:36:09 AM
Quote from: Vene on September 12, 2008, 10:51:12 PM
If this isn't a repost I will be sorely disappointed.
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4189/creationistscientificjh2.gif)

I haven't seen this one or the one above it before.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Vene on September 13, 2008, 03:56:44 AM
I've got more:
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5552/bananasfb0.png)
(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1800/girlstreedarwinevolutiorb3.gif)
(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2038/idtoon1yj6.gif)
link for massive (http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/1924/sciencevsnorseha0.jpg)
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 13, 2008, 10:44:24 PM
From what I've heard the story has been blow out of proportion by the media.  He wasn't saying that Creationism should be taught as a "competing theory".  He was saying that if kids bring it up in class that the teachers shouldn't just dismiss them out of hand because that will alienate the kids even more.  It's the teacher's responsibility to explain exactly why Creationism is bad science.

Then again, this sentence makes no sense at all:  "Just because something lacks scientific support doesn't seem to me a sufficient reason to omit it from the science lesson."

:weary:
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Cain on September 13, 2008, 10:50:52 PM
Still, I would say that is kind of serious.  What are you meant to do?  Last time I checked, teachers were not paid to humour delusions that crackpot parents have told their children.  They were meant to teach the facts, to the best of their knowledge.  In science, this means evolution.  In Religious Studies, this means religious theory.

On the other hand, I am not overly concerned if the UK gets overrun by retards who cannot tell the difference between a scientific hypothesis and a mythological story.  That just means the job market for places needing people who aren't morons just got a little bigger.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Kai on September 13, 2008, 11:18:19 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 13, 2008, 10:50:52 PM
Still, I would say that is kind of serious.  What are you meant to do?  Last time I checked, teachers were not paid to humour delusions that crackpot parents have told their children.  They were meant to teach the facts, to the best of their knowledge.  In science, this means evolution.  In Religious Studies, this means religious theory.

On the other hand, I am not overly concerned if the UK gets overrun by retards who cannot tell the difference between a scientific hypothesis and a mythological story.  That just means the job market for places needing people who aren't morons just got a little bigger.

The funding for scientific institutions goes down though.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 14, 2008, 12:17:19 AM
I'm still having trouble finding a good stories that explains what Reiss was trying to say.  Most stories just say "OMG! The Royal Society wants Creationism to be taught in science class!!1!!" I assume that he just meant, if a kid brings it up just go ahead and have the discussion and don't tell the kid to STFU.

I did find an interesting story (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4744194.ece) that quotes the Church of England, the British Humanist Association, and the Movement for Reform Judaism making official statements against Creationism. I'd kill for something like that to happen in the US.  Sure most of the denominations have made official statements in favor of evolution but they don't seem to speak up much when things like this happen so as to not ruffle feathers.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 14, 2008, 12:28:01 AM
OK, found the BBC story on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7612152.stm

They seem to be the only ones to have long quotes from Prof. Reiss.

QuoteHe says that in his experience it is more effective to include discussion about creationism alongside scientific theories such as the Big Bang and evolution.

"An increasing percentage of children in the UK come from families that do not accept the scientific version of the history of the universe and the evolution of species.

"What are we to do with those children? My experience after having tried to teach biology for 20 years is if one simply gives the impression that such children are wrong, then they are not likely to learn much about the science that one really wants them to learn.

"I think a better way forward is to say to them 'look, I simply want to present you with the scientific understanding of the history of the universe and how animals and plants and other organisms evolved'.

He also added a clarification on his position regarding creationism in schools.

"Some of my comments about the teaching of creationism have been misinterpreted as suggesting that creationism should be taught in science classes. Creationism has no scientific basis.

"However, when young people ask questions about creationism in science classes, teachers need to be able to explain to them why evolution and the Big Bang are scientific theories but they should also take the time to explain how science works and why creationism has no scientific basis.

"I have referred to science teachers discussing creationism as a worldview'; this is not the same as lending it any scientific credibility."

Also, I am jealous that the UK is "only" 10% Creationist.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Requia ☣ on September 14, 2008, 12:38:07 AM
As best I can tell, most (as in more than half) of the creationists in the US are part of denominations that demand that the bible is the literal truth.  You do have catholics (especially older ones) that still believe in creationism for example, but the big chunk of them is the 1/3rd of the country that are evangelical of some sort, or pentacostals or mormons etc.  None of whome are going to be terribly happy about what the episcapal or chatholic church says.

Please excuse my butched spellings of the denominations, IE sucks :(
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 14, 2008, 01:03:06 AM
As far as I can tell, the Young Earth Creationist/Bible-Humpers are mostly: Baptist, Pentecostal, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witlesses, and various non-denominationals.

The ones that support evolution are: Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterianism, Methodist, Church of Christ. That's just on the official stance of the churches though.  There is plenty of crossover among congregants, of course.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Kai on September 14, 2008, 01:48:14 AM
Church of Christ is sometimes ultra fundie as well.

Depends on the part of the US you are in.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 14, 2008, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 14, 2008, 01:48:14 AM
Church of Christ is sometimes ultra fundie as well.

Depends on the part of the US you are in.
Ah, I meant to say the United Church of Christ.  I didn't realize that there was a difference until just now.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Golden Applesauce on September 14, 2008, 08:01:31 AM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on September 14, 2008, 01:03:06 AM
As far as I can tell, the Young Earth Creationist/Bible-Humpers are mostly: Baptist, Pentecostal, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witlesses, and various non-denominationals.

The ones that support evolution are: Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterianism, Methodist, Church of Christ. That's just on the official stance of the churches though.  There is plenty of crossover among congregants, of course.

The official Catholic stance accepts evolution as change-over-time, even natural selection, but posits that natural selection alone is insufficient to produce humans; God's creative energy was required.  Which you have to admit is the best you can do while hanging on the the 'soul' idea.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Cain on September 14, 2008, 11:31:13 AM
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in alot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Kai on September 14, 2008, 10:30:50 PM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on September 14, 2008, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 14, 2008, 01:48:14 AM
Church of Christ is sometimes ultra fundie as well.

Depends on the part of the US you are in.
Ah, I meant to say the United Church of Christ.  I didn't realize that there was a difference until just now.

Yeah, United Church of Christ is okay. They are all for GLBT issues as well.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 15, 2008, 06:15:22 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2008, 11:31:13 AM
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in a lot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American Catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.
They are going to be holding a conference on it in March in honor of the 150th anniversary of Origin of Species. It looks like it is going to be less about the science though and more about the philosophical and theological issues.  They will probably just flesh out their theistic evolution ideas.  I doubt any Intelligent Design mumbo jumbo will sneak in, but you never know.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/09/10/vatican-sees-urgent-need-to-review-darwin-and-evolution/
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 15, 2008, 05:32:30 PM
PZ Myers did a good blog post about this:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/09/michael_reisss_big_mistake.php#more

QuoteThose who ask us to "teach" creationism are either abusing that verb in a way an educator shouldn't, or they are asking us to give bad science a special privilege, a promotion to the status of a legitimate scientific subject that deserves to be on a science teacher's lesson plan. It doesn't. It is not important to specify that students must learn that some people think the earth is 6000 years old. What should be on the outline of concepts taught in science class is how we know the earth is much older than 6000 years.

...

Michael Reiss, the director of education, is pushing this idea with a noble and reasonable intent: he thinks it is the only way to reach some students who will shut off learning if their religious biases are challenged. Unfortunately, he's also suggesting that non-science/anti-science concepts should be specified as a course objective in science classes, he's buying into common creationist propaganda ploy, and he's asking for unwarranted deference for wrong ideas held for unscientific reasons by students.

...

A director of education who won't even repudiate the "teach the controversy" propaganda line of the creationists, though, has exposed his own ignorance of the issues and of the necessary goals of science education, and has made his ability to keep superstition out of science suspect. Reiss is demonstrably unfit for his job, not because he plays silly games with god-belief in his spare time, but because he's willing to pollute the science classroom with lies. That should not be tolerated, and I don't care that he thinks it's a way to maintain rapport with students — there is no acceptable excuse for conceding science to those who don't understand it.

Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Cain on September 15, 2008, 06:00:13 PM
That is pretty much where I am coming from on this as well.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 17, 2008, 02:36:57 AM
Quote from: Jason Wabash on September 15, 2008, 06:15:22 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2008, 11:31:13 AM
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in a lot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American Catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.
They are going to be holding a conference on it in March in honor of the 150th anniversary of Origin of Species. It looks like it is going to be less about the science though and more about the philosophical and theological issues.  They will probably just flesh out their theistic evolution ideas.  I doubt any Intelligent Design mumbo jumbo will sneak in, but you never know.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/09/10/vatican-sees-urgent-need-to-review-darwin-and-evolution/

Looks like i was wrong.  It is going to be from a scientific point of view.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13812

QuoteFr. Leclerc explained the reason that the congress is being held, saying, "Debates on the theory of evolution are becoming ever more heated, both among Christians and in specifically evolutionist circles. In particular, with the approach of the ... 150th anniversary of the publication of 'The Origin of Species,' Charles Darwin's work is still too often discussed more in ideological terms than in the scientific ones which were his true intention."

"In such circumstances - as Christian scientists, philosophers and theologians directly involved in the debate alongside colleagues from other confessions or of no confession at all - we felt it incumbent upon us to bring some clarification. The aim is to generate wide-ranging rational discussion in order to favor fruitful dialogue among scholars from various fields and areas of expertise. The Church has profound interest in such dialogue, while fully respecting the competencies of each and all," Fr. Leclerc said.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 17, 2008, 05:15:42 AM
And Reiss is now stepping down.

http://royalsociety.org/news.asp?id=8008

QuoteSome of Professor Michael Reiss's recent comments, on the issue of creationism in schools, while speaking as the Royal Society's Director of Education, were open to misinterpretation.   While it was not his intention, this has led to damage to the Society's reputation.  As a result, Professor Reiss and the Royal Society have agreed that, in the best interests of the Society, he will step down immediately as Director of Education a part time post he held on secondment.   He is to return, full time, to his position as Professor of Science Education at the Institute of Education.

The Royal Society's position is that creationism has no scientific basis and should not be part of the science curriculum.  However, if a young person raises creationism in a science class, teachers should be in a position to explain why evolution is a sound scientific theory and why creationism is not, in any way, scientific.

The Royal Society greatly appreciates Professor Reiss's efforts in furthering the Society's work in the important field of science education over the past two years.   The Society wishes him well for the future.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Vene on September 17, 2008, 05:03:35 PM
Wow, the UK really is more secular than the US.  Over here we have hardcore creationists who not only refuse to step down from positions of authority, but their creationism can be a political selling point.


We fucking suck.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 17, 2008, 05:16:38 PM
Please to be noting:

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804713.htm

QuotePhillip Sloan, a professor at Notre Dame, told the press conference the evolution debate, "especially in the United States, has been taking place without a strong Catholic presence ... and the discourse has suffered accordingly.

It's about time they got off of their asses and told the fundies to STFU!   :argh!:
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Vene on September 17, 2008, 10:46:51 PM
Speaking of, this is what the fundies here get away with.

Quote"It's really a disgrace for the state school board to impose evolution on our students without teaching creationism," county school board member Jimmy Hobbs said at Tuesday's meeting. "The law says we can't have Bibles in schools, but we can have evolution, of the atheists."

link (http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20080916/ARTICLES/809160338/1004&title=Brunswick_school_board_to_consider_creationism_teaching)
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Requia ☣ on September 17, 2008, 11:17:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2008, 11:31:13 AM
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in alot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.

The current (catholic) pope *hates* intelligent design, and only barely stopped short of calling it heresy when he was a cardinal.  I'll pull up references if I remember when I'm home, have some of his papers bookmarked.

Unless Ratzinger died while I wasn't paying attention?
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 18, 2008, 01:07:07 AM
Quote from: Vene on September 17, 2008, 10:46:51 PM
Speaking of, this is what the fundies here get away with.

Quote"It's really a disgrace for the state school board to impose evolution on our students without teaching creationism," county school board member Jimmy Hobbs said at Tuesday's meeting. "The law says we can't have Bibles in schools, but we can have evolution, of the atheists."

link (http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20080916/ARTICLES/809160338/1004&title=Brunswick_school_board_to_consider_creationism_teaching)
Damn you!  I was just getting ready to link to that!   :argh!:

QuoteBoard attorney Joseph Causey said it might be possible for the board to add creationism to the curriculum if it doesn't replace the teaching of evolution.
:lulz: They are going to be in for a big shock very very soon.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on September 18, 2008, 01:27:32 AM
Follow-up story already:  http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20080917/ARTICLES/809170272/1155&title=No_place_for_creationism_in_science_class__state_says_

QuoteThe Brunswick County school system offers a Bible as Literature course in high school, but it's not being taught this year because no students signed up for it, according to administrators.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Vene on September 18, 2008, 03:03:58 PM
QuoteTeachers have alternative assignments for students whose parents have objections about evolution, but students are still assessed on the topic in state tests, she said.
Fail.

QuoteDunlap said teachers should present evolution to students as a theory substantiated by scientific evidence, but students should not be taught what to believe.
You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts. :argh!:
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Kai on September 19, 2008, 12:46:04 PM
http://bjoern.brembs.net/news.php?item.434.6 (http://bjoern.brembs.net/news.php?item.434.6)

:lulz:

QuoteApparently, the book uses this picture to make the claim that these caddisflies haven't changed for a few million years, so no animals have ever changed (great logic, isn't it?). If you look closely (as PZ has done already in January), you'll see that it actually depicts a fishing lure! It's a dummy only mimicking a caddis to lure fish to bite. Obviously, the flies made by Graham Owen are good enough to lure not only fish, but also creationists!

:lulz:
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Cain on September 19, 2008, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: Requiem on September 17, 2008, 11:17:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2008, 11:31:13 AM
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in alot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.

The current (catholic) pope *hates* intelligent design, and only barely stopped short of calling it heresy when he was a cardinal.  I'll pull up references if I remember when I'm home, have some of his papers bookmarked.

Unless Ratzinger died while I wasn't paying attention?

Looks like he changed his mind, then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/aug/28/religion.pope

There have been growing signs the Pope is considering aligning his church more closely with the theory of "intelligent design" taught in some US states.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Chairman Risus on September 20, 2008, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 19, 2008, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: Requiem on September 17, 2008, 11:17:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2008, 11:31:13 AM
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in alot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.

The current (catholic) pope *hates* intelligent design, and only barely stopped short of calling it heresy when he was a cardinal.  I'll pull up references if I remember when I'm home, have some of his papers bookmarked.

Unless Ratzinger died while I wasn't paying attention?

Looks like he changed his mind, then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/aug/28/religion.pope

There have been growing signs the Pope is considering aligning his church more closely with the theory of "intelligent design" taught in some US states.
INFALLIBLE STFU
   \\
:hashishim:

Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Reginald Ret on October 14, 2008, 12:40:49 PM
I say fuck 'em teach creationism but do it sarcastically, only use horribly bad arguments to support it and only after you have taught the kids why those types of argments are faulty.

"non sequitors are bad because the conclusion does not follow logically from the argument"

"creationism is true because god exists"
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Iason Ouabache on October 14, 2008, 12:45:49 PM
How about just having a critical thinking/logic/scientific method class for all incoming high school freshmen?  Would that be too much to ask for???
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2008, 12:47:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 08, 2008, 09:57:33 AM
Of course, the problem is once people start thinking, they have this annoying habit of not stopping.  And before you know it, they're questioning the BBC and whether science is a culture-bound mode of thought and we've all become effete, latte-drinking postmodernists, tearing apart the foundations of Western rationality and replacing it with a nihilistic discourse of despair and the end of all grand narratives.

Or something.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Vene on October 14, 2008, 02:49:06 PM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 14, 2008, 12:45:49 PM
How about just having a critical thinking/logic/scientific method class for all incoming high school freshmen?  Would that be too much to ask for???
Yes, we can't put that on a standardized test.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Reginald Ret on October 14, 2008, 06:58:58 PM
Quote from: Vene on October 14, 2008, 02:49:06 PM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 14, 2008, 12:45:49 PM
How about just having a critical thinking/logic/scientific method class for all incoming high school freshmen?  Would that be too much to ask for???
Yes, we can't put that on a standardized test.
It would be easier to convince schools to hire only anti-authoritarian teachers who don't give a shit about what is gonna be tested.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Kai on October 15, 2008, 12:51:37 AM
Quote from: Regret on October 14, 2008, 06:58:58 PM
Quote from: Vene on October 14, 2008, 02:49:06 PM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 14, 2008, 12:45:49 PM
How about just having a critical thinking/logic/scientific method class for all incoming high school freshmen?  Would that be too much to ask for???
Yes, we can't put that on a standardized test.
It would be easier to convince schools to hire only anti-authoritarian teachers who don't give a shit about what is gonna be tested.

Which would (in the US) screw the schools over in the long run since test scores now determine funding for individual schools under NCLB.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Requia ☣ on October 16, 2008, 02:02:42 AM
Wait, so if a school does poorly, you *reduce* its resources?

:facepalm:

While we're at it, lets pull cops out of high crime areas, and the military out of the most violent regions.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on December 28, 2017, 06:39:04 PM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on September 14, 2008, 01:03:06 AM
As far as I can tell, the Young Earth Creationist/Bible-Humpers are mostly: Baptist, Pentecostal, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witlesses, and various non-denominationals.

Basically the shit in the flyover states
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2017, 08:38:04 PM
What the fuck is up with everyone bumping my old threads all of a sudden? Have you really got nothing else better to do than discuss threads from 2008?
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Faust on December 29, 2017, 10:38:21 PM
2008 was a good vintage.
Title: Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
Post by: Pope eros on January 22, 2018, 10:00:58 AM
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