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Messages - Dimocritus

#31
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:44:26 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 28, 2020, 11:43:17 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on April 28, 2020, 11:39:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 28, 2020, 11:35:01 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on April 28, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 26, 2020, 03:06:47 AM
I'm still voting against Trump.  Because my feelings of butthurt do not exceed my hatred for every single thing Donald Trump stands for.

So, here's the thing, I understand what you're saying. However, calling someone who's vote we need "butthurt," or otherwise antagonizing them is super counterproductive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a "kinder and gentler" TGRR, that would be truly horrifying. But shit, at least keep it to yourself until the election is over so people actually trying to reach to potential voters out don't have an additional hurdle to climb, as it is, the DNC can't stop getting in their own way and making things difficult.

Dude, 4+ years ago, I was called a Nazi and a racist and a libertarian because I was voting for Bernie, and nobody said shit about it.  Not one person, *including* everyone giving me shit now.

But now I have to be nice, because Saint Bernie is involved.

:whack:

No, I don't.  I in fact feel no need to accept political wisdom or moral guidance from PD, because it's nothing but cock and repost hypocrisy all the way down.

This has literally got nothing to do with Bernie at this point. It's about getting people who would otherwise not vote to get out there and get this orange fucktard out of office. You either help or don't. No one said you had to be happy about it. I'm certainly not. But if it's more important to you to antagonize people on the internet, fine, just realize it's making other people's jobs more difficult. For every one one person I can convince to "come around" we lose three or four because someone was antagonizing them.

Right here (PD), right now (this election), it's all personal.  All of it.

Outside of PD I am quite willing to be more persuasive.  But inside of PD, not so much.

This I can understand and respect, but it wasn't me that called you any of those things.
#32
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:43:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 28, 2020, 11:37:25 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on April 28, 2020, 11:31:06 PM
The other thing to keep in mind is that many former Bernie/Warren supporters are very idealistic.

Sometimes I laugh so hard I shit my pants.

I mean, my choices went Harris, Warren, Sanders, some random asshole, Biden, a lump of Trump's shit, Pete, Gabbard, but I don't want to hear SHIT about idealism on this here forum.  None.  Nada.  No gusta.  Nein.

WTF are you even on about? Luckily I'm heartily immune to your brand of shitposting, you inoculated me yourself. Read my posts as they are written and stop injecting things to be mad about. I'm talking strategy here. Like, remember that one game of Werewolf where you and I convinced everyone to just kill themselves? It's kinda like that, but a little more important than a forum game.
#33
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:39:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 28, 2020, 11:35:01 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on April 28, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 26, 2020, 03:06:47 AM
I'm still voting against Trump.  Because my feelings of butthurt do not exceed my hatred for every single thing Donald Trump stands for.

So, here's the thing, I understand what you're saying. However, calling someone who's vote we need "butthurt," or otherwise antagonizing them is super counterproductive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a "kinder and gentler" TGRR, that would be truly horrifying. But shit, at least keep it to yourself until the election is over so people actually trying to reach to potential voters out don't have an additional hurdle to climb, as it is, the DNC can't stop getting in their own way and making things difficult.

Dude, 4+ years ago, I was called a Nazi and a racist and a libertarian because I was voting for Bernie, and nobody said shit about it.  Not one person, *including* everyone giving me shit now.

But now I have to be nice, because Saint Bernie is involved.

:whack:

No, I don't.  I in fact feel no need to accept political wisdom or moral guidance from PD, because it's nothing but cock and repost hypocrisy all the way down.

This has literally got nothing to do with Bernie at this point. It's about getting people who would otherwise not vote to get out there and get this orange fucktard out of office. You either help or don't. No one said you had to be happy about it. I'm certainly not. But if it's more important to you to antagonize people on the internet, fine, just realize it's making other people's jobs more difficult. For every one one person I can convince to "come around" we lose three or four because someone was antagonizing them.
#34
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:31:06 PM
The other thing to keep in mind is that many former Bernie/Warren supporters are very idealistic. Whether you think voting should be based on ideals or not, they believe it is. Convincing someone like that to vote against their ideals is very difficult (I should know, I am one of them) so consideration of the above fact should be taken into account. Remind people that voting is confidential and that no one will know who they voted for. Even the most idealistic will sway a bit when they think no one is watching.
#35
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:27:30 PM
Quote from: Faust on April 26, 2020, 11:01:21 AM
Coming back to the OP isnt going to convincing them to vote for biden over trump, if they are already voting for trump you are unlikely to sway that.
My biggest fear, and it is the likely way that trump will win the election is that he has a bunch of diehard zealots while biden has a charisma void.
What will happen is people who complain about trump,  but they wont register that where it matters on the day.
The single best thing you can do in all this is find the people who say they will vote biden, and make sure they are registered to vote, that they show up on the day.
Because the Cassandra in me says trump will get back into office, not because of his overwhelming voter base, but because the amount who actually got out to vote will be tiny

Pretty much this.
#36
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 26, 2020, 03:06:47 AM
I'm still voting against Trump.  Because my feelings of butthurt do not exceed my hatred for every single thing Donald Trump stands for.

So, here's the thing, I understand what you're saying. However, calling someone who's vote we need "butthurt," or otherwise antagonizing them is super counterproductive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for a "kinder and gentler" TGRR, that would be truly horrifying. But shit, at least keep it to yourself until the election is over so people actually trying to reach out to potential voters don't have an additional hurdle to climb, as it is, the DNC can't stop getting in their own way and making things difficult.
#37
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:20:02 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on April 26, 2020, 12:39:23 AM
The small step part is important, but it's not that voting Biden now will give us the chance to vote for someone better next time, if Biden wins then the real work, protests, strikes, mass movement, will all be much easier and folks will be less likely to be killed doing them.  Voting is nowhere near enough, Biden isnt going to fix anything, but he's going to break less things than Trump and the government was never going to fix things, not even under Sanders.  That's up to the people.

This is similar to the angle I've been working. Voting for Biden is not "voting for the lesser of two evils" and, therefore, voting for evil. It's a strategic move that allows us to regroup.
#38
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 28, 2020, 11:12:36 PM
Sorry I've been away. Losing all fucking sense of time, what with being stuck in a time loop forever and all. I started having conversations with some of my piers (including some self-identifying republicans) and they've gone over better than I thought they would. But, the DNC couldn't make this any more difficult for me, doing things like removing Bernie from the NY primary ballot. No one I know that is a Bernie supporter believes that he has a chance of winning, but removing all opportunities for them to voice their opinions is leaving a real sour taste in their mouths. Is the DNC so spectacularly tone-deaf, or are they intentionally self destructing? I don't really see how it could be anything else. Like, never mind an olive branch for progressives, how about just NOT farting in their cereal and laughing?
#39
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 25, 2020, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 25, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on April 25, 2020, 06:41:36 AM
TLDR; Help me convince my friends to vote for Biden.

Context: I like Sen. Sander' policies. I hate Joe Biden. I hate Orange Hitler probably more than anything. I tend to vote very ideologically, but am smart enough to know when to when to switch strategies and be more pragmatic. The people I know that are Sanders supporters have the most stellar intentions and hold very strong progressive values, but feel slighted and are understandably impatient for some major changes, which they, understandably, do not expect from a Biden presidency.

No, insulting their intelligence and lumping them all in as "Bernie Bros" is not effective and will have counterproductive outcomes.

I intend on messaging my friends individually to make a case. I would like to make that case as strongly as possible. I need to make this as appealing to them as possible. I hate doing this, I hate voting and convincing others to vote in a manner that defies their core values, but it must be done.

I would like all of your help to construct the most foolproof (lol, I know) argument possible, using ethos and pathos where logos won't do.

Look, this is really simple.

If after 4 years of Trump being president, anyone says that they won't take the best chance to remove him, then that person never cared about society in the first place, and their posturing is nothing but a grotesque validation wank.

Oh ok, so then I won't bother trying then. Thanks for your insight. Really glad I asked.
#40
Apple Talk / Re: Help
April 25, 2020, 08:02:40 AM
Quote from: altered on April 25, 2020, 07:20:09 AM
Here's the problem I've found trying to make this argument:

Either these people have nothing to lose, or they are True Believers.

Sounds dismissive?

Try saying: hey, maybe we could have four years of queer people not dying miserable, preventable deaths due to medical bigotry. Maybe we could not have the Supreme Court even more stacked against us for the rest of our lifetimes.

Maybe saving people is the right move.

If those arguments don't work, it would take Holy Writ, and they might even ignore that. If they've let their convictions take on more value than human lives, then the certain betrayal of their convictions outweighs a reduction in suffering. That condition is one that I have never been able to bring someone back from, least of all in a message that works on broad swaths of people.

If I manage to vote, I'll vote Biden. I'll hold my nose and do the deed despite feeling outraged and horrified that the good choice is that fucking bad.

I'll do it because I don't want to die, and I have so many friends I don't want to die either. And in the end, that is what four more years of Trump will do, when you can't even get necessary medical treatment because you might be queer.

I understand your point but I do think it's a bit dismissive and I'm not totally sure that throwing your hands up and declaring that they are "unreachable" is the best strategy at this point. Like it or not, we kinda need them.

I think very few Berners are "True Believers" and I think it's more likely that they feel hopeless and/or helpless rather than that they feel that they have "nothing to lose." I think that they feel like they have EVERYTHING to lose and they do not see a path that prevents them, their friends, and their families from losing everything. All in all, Berners, at least the ones that I know ARE intelligent and compassionate people that just feel disenfranchised and hopeless.

Maybe if they can be presented with something that gives them a glimmer of hope they can be persuaded. Maybe frame the whole "voting Biden" thing as a small step towards something bigger? Maybe? I really don't know which is why I'm here.

Mind you, I don't even CARE at this point if I'm being TRUTHFUL to these people, as long as I can influence them to get Orange Hitler the fuck out.
#41
Apple Talk / Help
April 25, 2020, 06:41:36 AM
TLDR; Help me convince my friends to vote for Biden.

Context: I like Sen. Sander' policies. I hate Joe Biden. I hate Orange Hitler probably more than anything. I tend to vote very ideologically, but am smart enough to know when to when to switch strategies and be more pragmatic. The people I know that are Sanders supporters have the most stellar intentions and hold very strong progressive values, but feel slighted and are understandably impatient for some major changes, which they, understandably, do not expect from a Biden presidency.

No, insulting their intelligence and lumping them all in as "Bernie Bros" is not effective and will have counterproductive outcomes.

I intend on messaging my friends individually to make a case. I would like to make that case as strongly as possible. I need to make this as appealing to them as possible. I hate doing this, I hate voting and convincing others to vote in a manner that defies their core values, but it must be done.

I would like all of your help to construct the most foolproof (lol, I know) argument possible, using ethos and pathos where logos won't do.
#42
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 04, 2020, 08:09:13 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on March 04, 2020, 07:54:38 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 04, 2020, 07:33:11 PM

Here's the thing about that.... I don't give a shit. Not one shit! Not even a tiny little M&M sized pip. There are children in cages, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is holding onto life by a fingernail, there are climate change deniers and white supremicists writing gov policy.... I am not getting hung up on trivial shit like being choosy over donors. The real question is, is Liz Warren in anybody's pocket? And I honestly don't think she's suddenly gonna go all libertarian because a few corporations want to throw in with her and she said "fine, I'll take your not-coordinated-with-my-campaign money".


Y'know, you're right. No rebuttal, no buts.

The question is at this point, what can we do about this? Sure, voting and participating in the democratic process is something, but I can't help but think that there is more we can do on a kind of clandestine, underground level. I don't feel like we have the time to let bureaucracy run its course to even things out. I say this with no solid ideas, but it is something that is constantly churning  in the back of my mind.

I am sure that there would be something that could be done.


This is what I'm here to talk about.
#43
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 08:12:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 04, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on March 04, 2020, 06:31:27 PM

This, but instead of a sword, the DNC is waving around a floppy wet noodle. Sloppy Joe is going to get torn to pieces in a debate against Drumpf the very second he starts his stumbling gibberish. Drumpf is going to openly mock him, and Drumpfs base will just go rabid.



Biden's problem is that his mouth just sort of wanders away without him.

Agreed, but that's the perfect target for Drumpfs low-blow, insult tactics.
#44
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: LMNO on March 04, 2020, 07:57:48 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on March 04, 2020, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: LMNO on March 04, 2020, 07:26:28 PM
QuoteYou can't have 5-plus people dogpile on one dude and then say that you won fair and square

This is quite literally the primary process.

In this case, yeah. Though I would argue that there's a significant difference between 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 and 1 vs. 4.
In this case, it just sped up.

It was 100% clear that the first Centrist to get a lot of delegates would be the one to go up against Sanders.  That was Biden.  All the other centrists saw they didn't have a path to the majority, and threw in with Biden.

Whether it was now, or if it was a few weeks from now, it was always going to be Centrist vs Progressive.  If Bernie had tanked in Nevada and Warren was able to get more delegates, the pile on would be against her.

I'm still not seeing what's not fair about this.

It's not really about fairness. It's about perception, which I know is a kind of an ambiguous weird abstraction, but it's what people are basing decisions on. I don't think (m)any of the candidates thought too critically about how a lot of this was going to be perceived.

Side note: LMNO, I don't want to battle with you. It's clear we have some differing opinions, but I also believe that we have far more in common, and I'd rather spend our time identifying and discussing those areas and and how to make those kinds of changes than spinning our wheels.
#45
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
March 04, 2020, 07:54:38 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 04, 2020, 07:33:11 PM

Here's the thing about that.... I don't give a shit. Not one shit! Not even a tiny little M&M sized pip. There are children in cages, Ruth Bader Ginsburg is holding onto life by a fingernail, there are climate change deniers and white supremicists writing gov policy.... I am not getting hung up on trivial shit like being choosy over donors. The real question is, is Liz Warren in anybody's pocket? And I honestly don't think she's suddenly gonna go all libertarian because a few corporations want to throw in with her and she said "fine, I'll take your not-coordinated-with-my-campaign money".


Y'know, you're right. No rebuttal, no buts.

The question is at this point, what can we do about this? Sure, voting and participating in the democratic process is something, but I can't help but think that there is more we can do on a kind of clandestine, underground level. I don't feel like we have the time to let bureaucracy run its course to even things out. I say this with no solid ideas, but it is something that is constantly churning  in the back of my mind.