Messages

What you say: "I know you think X is true, but X is actually not true."

What they hear: "The person who told you that X is true lied to you. They're a lying liar who is filling your head with lies."

What they reply: "No way, X is definitely true, how dare you!"



The challenge: What techniques can be employed to get around this response?

I know you think X is true. But there is some information (P, D, Q, B, A, C, H) which appears to disagree with the truth of X I'm not saying that X IS NOT true. I'm just saying that if X is true then you must also account for PDQ BACH and no one has ever been able to account for them.

In Ohio, I've heard it commonly stated either way. I wonder if it's related to the opposite phrase "on purpose"?

I know most British people consider Halloween to be an 'American' holiday, because until fairly recently (last few decades), it just wasn't something we celebrated at all. Hearing it described as a European holiday is interesting. It might be technically correct, but I think most people here would find that baffling.

National labels in the United Kingdom are also a huge mess. People say British when they mean English, English when they mean British, European when they mean to exclude the Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English, and any-or-all of the above except European when what they mean is the white segment of those various populations, excluding the large migrant communities we've got.

Ask three people what Britishness is and you'll probably get four different answers. Our national identity really is a mess right now. If the Scottish leave, I don't see it getting any clearer.

Why not? At that point British would become more synonymous with English, since it would just be the English, Welsh and Northern Irish at that point, and the Northern Irish may someday no longer be you problem either, just leaving the English and the Welsh.

Because the history of Britain is the history of merging England and Scotland, not England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

The full name of the country is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Ireland is not, and has never been, part of Britain.

Wales was considered part of England long before England and Scotland merged, and was seen largely as a distastefully foreign, backwards province during that period - but not particularly worthy of its own national identity. Scotland, by contrast, was the reason for the formation of Britain. It was a deliberate attempt to try and get people in Scotland to stop seeing the English as oppressors, and people in England to stop seeing the Scottish as rabid barbarians.

England's national identity was fairly successfully eroded into a British one, where the English consider Scotland and Wales to essentially be part of one big country. There's recently been a kick back as Wales and Scotland have rediscovered (or just gotten more vocal) about their own identities, but by and large, English national identity has been usurped by the British label. Except when specifically talking about geographical issues. The difficulty here is, even within England, there are huge differing cultures. The North, The South, The Midlands and London all have different cultures, and there's not much which binds these areas together in the way of traditions, in a way which isn't true of Scotland and Wales where the broad feeling that they are all cut of the same cloth roughly exists.

Scotland has been a huge part of the success of the British Empire, too. A disproportionate amount of our great inventors and thinkers have been Scottish, and during the early days of empire, entering the military and going off to colonize foreign lands was one of the only ways for a Scottish gentleman to obtain respectability within London. Which is why a huge amount of our colonial past is really the story of ambitious Scottish men going off and colonizing the world on behalf of the English. There were much easier and far less dangerous ways for English gentlemen to gain a reputation, and so most of them stayed home and took part in other routes to respectability. It'd be more proper, arguably, to call the British Empire the Scottish Empire, because the English, whilst the larger population numerically, did far less to shape the growth of the Empire and its culture.

This all boils down to the fact that the English bought Scotland. They didn't conquer it, but nor did the Scottish people want to become a part of Britain. It all just sort of happened because of debt and the position of the Lairds compared to the powers in Westminster. Whilst England has come to identify itself - in broad terms - with the success of the British Empire and most English people consider themselves to come from that proud tradition... Scotland has always maintained a separate history and narrative of itself. One which, honestly, has a far greater grounding in reality than most English people would be comfortable to admit.

Should the Northern Irish, when describing their citizenship, then, describe themselves as United Kingdomonian rather than British? Should the Welsh just call themselves English because they're traditionally considered to be part of England by England? A British subject is a British subject, just as an American is an American and a Canadian is not unless they move south.

It seems to me that the English then have made the term British synonymous with English themselves. I could be mistaken but I don't see a lot of Scottish culture and identity permeating into British culture as a whole and then diffusing into England and making the English more Scottish. Ultimately England is drawing the lines and making the definitions as to what Britain and British means and everyone else seems to be pretty ambivalent about it.

Well, there is Irn Bru at the local Co-Op. 

I know most British people consider Halloween to be an 'American' holiday, because until fairly recently (last few decades), it just wasn't something we celebrated at all. Hearing it described as a European holiday is interesting. It might be technically correct, but I think most people here would find that baffling.

National labels in the United Kingdom are also a huge mess. People say British when they mean English, English when they mean British, European when they mean to exclude the Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English, and any-or-all of the above except European when what they mean is the white segment of those various populations, excluding the large migrant communities we've got.

Ask three people what Britishness is and you'll probably get four different answers. Our national identity really is a mess right now. If the Scottish leave, I don't see it getting any clearer.

Why not? At that point British would become more synonymous with English, since it would just be the English, Welsh and Northern Irish at that point, and the Northern Irish may someday no longer be you problem either, just leaving the English and the Welsh.

What I see weird about the problem in Europe is the opposite of the problem posed by Nigel: what do you call a person born and raised in the Republic of Ireland to two parents from Somalia? S/he's Irish, but also not Irish, because Irish people are Irish and not Somalian. Substitute Swedish for Irish. Or Russian. Or Japanese for that matter. You guys spread Britishness. Empire through expansion. The US and Canada are the first nations in the modern era where people from across the globe travel to live and settle there permanently. Empire through absorption. One strengthens ethnic and cultural identity, the other assimilates and diffuses them.

Its like Quantum Mechanics... there is weirdness, but only because we made up the lines, categories and definitions.

[is]

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

See that makes sense but the distinction that seems so peculiar to me is that it's cultural appropriation only if the act taken serves no practical value.

For me, I'd say that the cultural appropriation is really about taking something 'sacred' (for lack of a better term) and claiming that thing wholesale. I mean, sweating in a tent with some steam and peyote is good fun for everyone... just don't call it a Authentic Native American Sweat Lodge if you're a non-native and have no clue what the context was is in their culture.

FTFY

TYVM Nigel.

What if they sincerely think the ceremony has value for a boy/man of that age?  Is that different than if they just thought it was "neat"?

It has no cultural context for them. It's not FOR them. If they want to have a ceremony of some kind, that's one thing... heck, if they can find a rabbi who is willing to do it, there's the seal of approval right there. But if the rabbi says no, what then? Do they make it up? That's basically what happens with most Native American religious ceremonies that non-Natives perform. It's a brittle, offensive mockery, like pulling your eyes into slits and saying ching chong dow and thinking you're acting Chinese.

Exactly. It's not like Jews have a monopoly on ceremonies for boys becoming men. Lots of cultures celebrate boys to men (we Americans just have them sing bad 90's a capella). The Turks have a special ceremony and celebration that involves dressing the boy up like this:

See, I want to appropriate the hell out of that.... I would look bitchin.

Especially when the boys dance and the men in the village "make it rain" with lira for them

So, one could have a ceremony that was in every identical to another culture's, and have the same intent behind the ceremony, and it's not cultural appropriation if the simply call it something else?

"No, it's not a sweat lodge, it's a Swermaflerma."

Sure, why not? Though, I'd argue that it wouldn't be 'in every way identical' since its unlikely that the individual has received the proper training or (likely) even experienced the actual ritual in its proper context.

Purpleris and I had an interesting discussion about this yesterday. We're going to a Halloween party and she mentioned it was a Christian holiday. I pointed out that it wasn't Christian and many Christians actually are against it. It's a Western European/American holiday... but from the perspective of Turks, "Western" and "Christian" and "American" seem synonymous, particularly when it comes to cultural things like Halloween. The same from my perspective when I was there. One of their bayram (holidays) is the Candy Bayram which I assumed was Muslim, but its cultural. The same for New Years, where Turks celebrate with Turkey Dinners, a dude that looks like Santa, holiday lights, holiday trees, etc. Yet, its not Mulsim at all, its just Turkish... and some muslims hate it, because they see it as appropriation of Christian symbols.

That's hilarious, given that many American Christians think Halloween is Satanic, and the Christmas tree and Santa business is Pagan. 

Yep, its a great example of very confused cultural interactions.

[is]

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

See that makes sense but the distinction that seems so peculiar to me is that it's cultural appropriation only if the act taken serves no practical value.

For me, I'd say that the cultural appropriation is really about taking something 'sacred' (for lack of a better term) and claiming that thing wholesale. I mean, sweating in a tent with some steam and peyote is good fun for everyone... just don't call it a Authentic Native American Sweat Lodge if you're a non-native and have no clue what the context was is in their culture.

FTFY

TYVM Nigel.

What if they sincerely think the ceremony has value for a boy/man of that age?  Is that different than if they just thought it was "neat"?

It has no cultural context for them. It's not FOR them. If they want to have a ceremony of some kind, that's one thing... heck, if they can find a rabbi who is willing to do it, there's the seal of approval right there. But if the rabbi says no, what then? Do they make it up? That's basically what happens with most Native American religious ceremonies that non-Natives perform. It's a brittle, offensive mockery, like pulling your eyes into slits and saying ching chong dow and thinking you're acting Chinese.

Exactly. It's not like Jews have a monopoly on ceremonies for boys becoming men. Lots of cultures celebrate boys to men (we Americans just have them sing bad 90's a capella). The Turks have a special ceremony and celebration that involves dressing the boy up like this:

Purpleris and I had an interesting discussion about this yesterday. We're going to a Halloween party and she mentioned it was a Christian holiday. I pointed out that it wasn't Christian and many Christians actually are against it. It's a Western European/American holiday... but from the perspective of Turks, "Western" and "Christian" and "American" seem synonymous, particularly when it comes to cultural things like Halloween. The same from my perspective when I was there. One of their bayram (holidays) is the Candy Bayram which I assumed was Muslim, but its cultural. The same for New Years, where Turks celebrate with Turkey Dinners, a dude that looks like Santa, holiday lights, holiday trees, etc. Yet, its not Mulsim at all, its just Turkish... and some muslims hate it, because they see it as appropriation of Christian symbols.

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

See that makes sense but the distinction that seems so peculiar to me is that it's cultural appropriation only if the act taken serves no practical value.

For me, I'd say that the cultural appropriation is really about taking something 'sacred' (for lack of a better term) and claiming that thing wholesale. I mean, sweating in a tent with some steam and peyote is good fun for everyone... just don't call it a Authentic Native American Sweat Lodge if you're a non-native and have no clue what the context was in their culture.

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

Exactly. Now, I can see some legit Hindus getting a bit ticked off is Random Newage Hippie White Guy passes himself off as a Guru... but Yoga as exercise doesn't really seem all that bad to me.

In the end, I think its a bit like remixing, mashups and collages. Taking inspiration or making use of valuable ideas is great, as long as you don't make claims that go beyond that point.

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

That is exceedingly less interesting than I was imagining.

Also, i have a feeling this is limited to the PNW.  I have a hard time picturing New Englanders doing this.

I could see Ohioans doing it, but then I'd have to burn my eyes out once I saw it.

There is also the actual element I was trying to highlight, which is COMPLICIT SILENCE.

I think that we have all pretty much agreed in the past that it isn't OK to say nothing when someone is spewing racism or sexism. It is a silence which complies with the bigotry, and which therefore allows it to be perpetuated. If you are a white man and you don't object when another white man tells a nigger joke, you are complicit both in allowing the teller of the joke to believe it is acceptable to tell nigger jokes, and you are complicit in allowing the audience of the nigger joke to believe that the teller of the joke represents the attitudes of white men.

To use the most egregious possible example and get Godwin's Law out of the way, I'm sure there were a lot of Nazis who didn't want  any Jews to die. Are they who we think of when we remember Nazis? Of course not.

There are an increasing number of people who refuse to call themselves Atheists, because they don't want to be associated with the open and vocal bigotry that either represents Atheism, or which is being allowed to do so because of the complicit silence of the majority.

It's probably time to STOP SHUTTING UP.

That is also an excellent point. I was looking more at the discussion that ensued.

Yeah well. That seems to be because the screeching that I wasn't being nice enough and making exceptions for everyone here started right away. As I recall I was basically told that I was wrong and that I should take it back. I went to class and missed most of it, and frankly I'm not likely to go back and read it now because I don't actually much enjoy being hated.

I didn't find your post to be any different than posts we've seen on other topics. I mean, I've posted about 'magic' and the argument hasn't been about "my interpretation of magic" but rather than loud and obnoxious assholes that blast the Internet with retarded interpretations of magic... or anarchy or libertarianism or whatever. I was surprised that so many people wanted 'exceptions', when so many topics here are addressed by looking at the loudest assholes.

I mean, we could all post in E-Prime to ensure that no one gets offended... but I'm kinda proud that PD cured me of that particular ailment

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

And this is what happens when Americans don't culturally appropriate. I mean, it seems better to just swipe something interesting, rather than invent something really lame like that

There is also the actual element I was trying to highlight, which is COMPLICIT SILENCE.

I think that we have all pretty much agreed in the past that it isn't OK to say nothing when someone is spewing racism or sexism. It is a silence which complies with the bigotry, and which therefore allows it to be perpetuated. If you are a white man and you don't object when another white man tells a nigger joke, you are complicit both in allowing the teller of the joke to believe it is acceptable to tell nigger jokes, and you are complicit in allowing the audience of the nigger joke to believe that the teller of the joke represents the attitudes of white men.

To use the most egregious possible example and get Godwin's Law out of the way, I'm sure there were a lot of Nazis who didn't want  any Jews to die. Are they who we think of when we remember Nazis? Of course not.

There are an increasing number of people who refuse to call themselves Atheists, because they don't want to be associated with the open and vocal bigotry that either represents Atheism, or which is being allowed to do so because of the complicit silence of the majority.

It's probably time to STOP SHUTTING UP.

That is also an excellent point. I was looking more at the discussion that ensued.