Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Adios on January 05, 2011, 04:24:25 PM

Title: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Adios on January 05, 2011, 04:24:25 PM
A group of state legislators opposed to illegal immigration plan to propose a legislative "fix" Wednesday that would prevent children of illegal immigrants born in the United States from being citizens, a spokesman said.

The group, State Legislators for Legal Immigration, will reveal their strategy at a Wednesday morning news conference at the National Press Club in Washington, Ty McCauslin said.

The coalition counts members from 40 states. It argues that the 14th Amendment has been wrongly applied to so-called "anchor babies."

The 14th Amendment says that "all persons born ... in the United States" automatically become U.S. citizens.
Should birth grant citizenship?
2010: 14th Amendment rewards immigrants?

The group's proposal "is to fix the misapplication of the 14th Amendment as it applies to the children of illegal aliens," McCauslin told CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/05/legislators.illegal.immigration/index.html?hpt=T2

That will show those wetbacks!
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 05, 2011, 04:38:04 PM
1.  The founders didn't write the 14th amendment.

2.  The 14th amendment is the only guarantee that ANY of us have citizenship.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Adios on January 05, 2011, 04:39:07 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 05, 2011, 04:38:04 PM
1.  The founders didn't write the 14th amendment.

2.  The 14th amendment is the only guarantee that ANY of us have citizenship.

I was having a tea bag moment.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Lenin McCarthy on January 05, 2011, 04:57:47 PM
So what these people are saying is that babies from Mexico should not qualify as persons?  :p
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 05, 2011, 04:59:43 PM
Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on January 05, 2011, 04:57:47 PM
So what these people are saying is that babies from Mexico should not qualify as persons?  :p
DING DING DING
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on January 05, 2011, 05:41:37 PM
SO what's their solution? Only children born in the US to Americans born in the US can be American?
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Adios on January 05, 2011, 05:43:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on January 05, 2011, 05:41:37 PM
SO what's their solution? Only children born in the US to Americans born in the US can be American?

DON'T BE MEXICAN.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 05, 2011, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on January 05, 2011, 05:41:37 PM
SO what's their solution? Only children born in the US to Americans born in the US can be American?

Helllooooo, Jim Crow!   :lulz:
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Whatever on January 05, 2011, 05:52:23 PM
On a side note, if they make this retro active neither my mother, father nor I will be a US citizen.

Damn.



Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Adios on January 05, 2011, 05:55:03 PM
Quote from: Niamh on January 05, 2011, 05:52:23 PM
On a side note, if they make this retro active neither my mother, father nor I will be a US citizen.

Damn.





GTFO
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 05, 2011, 05:56:33 PM
Quote from: Niamh on January 05, 2011, 05:52:23 PM
On a side note, if they make this retro active neither my mother, father nor I will be a US citizen.

Damn.





Oh, I'm ALL for making this retroactive, ALL THE WAY BACK.  :lulz:
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Disco Pickle on January 05, 2011, 05:57:22 PM
Quote from: Niamh on January 05, 2011, 05:52:23 PM
On a side note, if they make this retro active neither my mother, father nor I will be a US citizen.

Damn.





Article 1, Section 9
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Adios on January 05, 2011, 05:57:50 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 05, 2011, 05:56:33 PM
Quote from: Niamh on January 05, 2011, 05:52:23 PM
On a side note, if they make this retro active neither my mother, father nor I will be a US citizen.

Damn.





Oh, I'm ALL for making this retroactive, ALL THE WAY BACK.  :lulz:

I claim First Nation status. The rest of you, OUT!
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 05, 2011, 05:58:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 05, 2011, 05:56:33 PM
Quote from: Niamh on January 05, 2011, 05:52:23 PM
On a side note, if they make this retro active neither my mother, father nor I will be a US citizen.

Damn.





Oh, I'm ALL for making this retroactive, ALL THE WAY BACK.  :lulz:

The local Apaches would like that.

I just read the Arizona plan, where individual states certify citizenship, based on parental status.

Given that my folks were students here, not legal residents, if these people have their way, I will lose my citizenship, despite 10 years of military service and 26 years of paying taxes.

Should that happen, I'm going back to Canada.  I'll tolerate almost anything in the service of the lulz, but this is a fucking insult.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 05, 2011, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on January 05, 2011, 05:57:22 PM
Quote from: Niamh on January 05, 2011, 05:52:23 PM
On a side note, if they make this retro active neither my mother, father nor I will be a US citizen.

Damn.





Article 1, Section 9

What makes you think that will matter?  The argument will be that they aren't retroactively prosecuting a crime, they're retroactively removing citizenship.  Ipso facto will not apply.

And Arizona's state government is maintaining that they won't listen to SCOTUS if they overturn it.

Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Disco Pickle on January 05, 2011, 06:08:22 PM
It's fun to imagine that things could potentially become that hilarious, but I just can't see this really happening.

The shit storm would be a shit hurricane.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 05, 2011, 06:10:50 PM
Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on January 05, 2011, 06:08:22 PM
It's fun to imagine that things could potentially become that hilarious, but I just can't see this really happening.

The shit storm would be a shit hurricane.

I'd think so, but I read the paper today.

There will be no shitstorm.  People will gripe and do nothing.  The media will be playful with it, and examine "the controversy" rather than the actual content.  Millions of citizens will be stripped of their citizenship, and the remainder won't care, because the new season of Dancing With The Stars will have the other Palin kid in it.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: AFK on January 05, 2011, 06:15:55 PM
We have kids in America going hungry.  We have The Dude from The Big Lebowski headlining campaigns to feed hungry kids in the USA, but nobody really gives a damn about that.  This kind of shit can easily fly under the radar as well.  America may not be out and out racist like it has been in the past.  But I think there is still a fair amount of strong indifference and lack of empathy when it comes to the poor minorities in this country. 
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Whatever on January 05, 2011, 06:47:30 PM
Here is the thing though.  Even as short of a time as 70 years ago not all Native Americans were considered citizens.  Most tribes were not made citizens until after WWII. 

That is where my problem arises.  If they actually retro this, then my mother's parents who came over from Ireland were not citizens when my mother and uncle were born, they did become citizens later, but.....

My Dad's mother was not made a citizen until after WWII and his father wasn't a citizen when he died.

I'm pretty much screwed.

They will have a huge fight on their hands with the NA community because there are thousands of tribal members who will stop being citizens if they retro act this BS.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Suu on January 05, 2011, 07:11:41 PM
If they actually retroact this, there will be no such thing as an American Citizen.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Adios on January 05, 2011, 07:12:43 PM
Quote from: Suu on January 05, 2011, 07:11:41 PM
If they actually retroact this, there will be no such thing as an American Citizen.

This is truth.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 05, 2011, 07:41:27 PM
No... in the 1800's when this law was passed there were no immigration rules, therefore no illegal immigration. Before this, if you lived in the country for two years, then you were a citizen. When the amendment passed, it simply meant that the "two year" rule didn't apply to a newborn.

However, even then the Senators stated that it did not apply to 'all' babies born in the US.

"... will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of person." (Senator Jacob Howard, one of the proponents of the amendment)
see: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=073/llcg073.db&recNum=11)

The larger issue here is that there are now two competing issues:
1. Persons born in the US are citizens, but this doesn't apply to "foreigners, aliens" (which would be visiting foreign nationals).
2. There were no immigration laws to speak of, so there were only two kinds of non-citizens: foreigners who will be citizens in two years, foreigners who are visiting.

It wasn't until the 20th century that the status of "illegal alien" existed. So the 14th amendment didn't apply to this class of people because that class of people didn't exist.

The real question comes down to what position the "illegal" is in... are they like " foreigners who will be citizens in two years" or "foreigners who are visiting"? Some obviously want to be citizens, but are not on any current path to get there.

There have been multiple Supreme Court cases since the implementation of the 14th amendment which clarified that not every baby born in the physical US were covered. As far as I can tell the only legal basis for the claim is the 1965 Immigration Act. Technically, a law in congress doesn't trump the 14th amendment.

Thus, IF the teabaggers want to change the status of "anchor babies" they need to change the 1965 Immigration Act, NOT the 14th amendment.


Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Epimetheus on January 05, 2011, 08:21:35 PM
Quote from: Suu on January 05, 2011, 07:11:41 PM
If they actually retroact this, there will be no such thing as an American Citizen.

Good point.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 05, 2011, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: Epimetheus on January 05, 2011, 08:21:35 PM
Quote from: Suu on January 05, 2011, 07:11:41 PM
If they actually retroact this, there will be no such thing as an American Citizen.

Good point.

Before 1924, you were a citizen if you lived here for two years and were fully under the jurisdiction of the US government (had no other national allegiance). So anyone born in the US before 1922 would be a US citizen by 1924, even without the 14th amendment.

So if this was 'retroactively' applied... it would only affect people born in the US after 1924 to non-citizens.




Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Requia ☣ on January 05, 2011, 11:00:25 PM
That still kicks my father out, and maybe me depending on if my mother is enough to get me in.  Roger would up in Canada with me too I believe.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Whatever on January 05, 2011, 11:21:53 PM
Yeah I'm fucked. Mom's folks came over in 32. Dad's dad came over at the end of WWII. And as I said his mom wasn3 given citizenship status until the end of WWII.

Fuck it. If America doesn't want us then they can send me to... well fuck I don't know where they would send me damn.....
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Juana on January 05, 2011, 11:45:46 PM
I've had ancestors here since colonial times on both sides, so I'm not going to be evicted. But if it were to get passed, I don't think I'd want to stay.

I'm trying to envision what the response would be like, if Arizona bucked a SCotUS decision on this. Probably nothing, except for the cheering from the Tea Baggers.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: the last yatto on January 06, 2011, 12:13:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on January 05, 2011, 05:41:37 PM
SO what's their solution? Only children born in the US to Americans born in the US can be American?

Citting inability to maintain recruitment quota, US Army lobbies congress that only soldiers and their offspring are granted citizenship.
:lulz:

Tho wasn't the orginal intent to help african slaves,
become americans?
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 06, 2011, 12:52:11 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 05, 2011, 05:57:50 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 05, 2011, 05:56:33 PM
Quote from: Niamh on January 05, 2011, 05:52:23 PM
On a side note, if they make this retro active neither my mother, father nor I will be a US citizen.

Damn.





Oh, I'm ALL for making this retroactive, ALL THE WAY BACK.  :lulz:

I claim First Nation status. The rest of you, OUT!

Erm, I'm half Native.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Suu on January 06, 2011, 03:49:29 AM
My mom's side of the family were colonists...AND THEY WERE FUCKING LOYALISTS TOO.

Come and get me, Teabaggers.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: the last yatto on January 06, 2011, 05:31:55 AM
Well real loyalists attend Episcopal churches
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Bruno on January 06, 2011, 10:29:09 AM
I'm like, 1/32 Cherokee or something, so, I'm good to go. 8):1fap:
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Juana on January 07, 2011, 12:52:14 AM
I kind of doubt being Indian in any way, shape, or form would actually help, because Indians are brown and Tea Baggers seem to have very specific feelings about brown people.


What I want to know is, how many of these people would loose their citizenship in a stupid stunt like this.
Title: Re: WE know what the Founding Fathers really meant!
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 07, 2011, 08:14:25 AM
Quote from: Hover Cat on January 07, 2011, 12:52:14 AM
I kind of doubt being Indian in any way, shape, or form would actually help, because Indians are brown and Tea Baggers seem to have very specific feelings about brown people.


What I want to know is, how many of these people would loose their citizenship in a stupid stunt like this.

I hope A LOT.