EVERYBODY SHUT UP.
Word.
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 04:49:38 PM
Word.
I have been on 6 forums AND Facebook today, and that tired-ass shit is dominating EVERY ONE OF THEM.
It flares up periodically. Like herpes.
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
Yeah, I used to be part of it...
I'm feeling much better now.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
As awful as it is, at least they aren't the fucking flouridation freaks.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 23, 2014, 05:47:19 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
As awful as it is, at least they aren't the fucking flouridation freaks.
It could always be worse. And frequently proves it.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
Not that I'm one of teh Chosen, but :cn:
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 23, 2014, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
Not that I'm one of teh Chosen, but :cn:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/community.without.christ/35490.htm
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/06/a-humanistic-cult-split-in-atheist-church-movement-leads-to-denominational-chasm/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/16/atheists-set-to-go-on-global-missionary-tour-to-establish-godless-church-congregations-around-the-world/
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/07/260184473/sunday-assembly-a-church-for-the-godless-picks-up-steam
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 07:16:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 23, 2014, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
Not that I'm one of teh Chosen, but :cn:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/community.without.christ/35490.htm
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/06/a-humanistic-cult-split-in-atheist-church-movement-leads-to-denominational-chasm/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/16/atheists-set-to-go-on-global-missionary-tour-to-establish-godless-church-congregations-around-the-world/
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/07/260184473/sunday-assembly-a-church-for-the-godless-picks-up-steam
Well at least npr is in there.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 23, 2014, 04:52:54 PM
It flares up periodically. Like herpes.
I blame reddit for this one its included in their circlejerk.
Believing in supernatural shit is a thing. Not believing in it is too. To the believer the non believer looks all sorts of doomed and/or evil. To the non believer, believers look like potentially dangerous and/or hilarious deluded people.
Expecting them to stop pissing and shitting at each other is, to my mind, optimistic at best. Best solution is one side is knocked out. Can't see that happening either but where's the harm in Just laughing at the whole hooting match and occasionally scoring cheap, dirty yucks at the expense of one side or the other?
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 23, 2014, 10:16:41 PM
Believing in supernatural shit is a thing. Not believing in it is too. To the believer the non believer looks all sorts of doomed and/or evil. To the non believer, believers look like potentially dangerous and/or hilarious deluded people.
Expecting them to stop pissing and shitting at each other is, to my mind, optimistic at best. Best solution is one side is knocked out. Can't see that happening either but where's the harm in Just laughing at the whole hooting match and occasionally scoring cheap, dirty yucks at the expense of one side or the other?
Mostly, I'm just sick and tired of the stale "humor", and the ignorant-ass, po'bucker "wit" of both sides.
Like everything else - can be done to death.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 23, 2014, 10:36:55 PM
Like everything else - can be has been done to death.
Fixed that for ya.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 23, 2014, 04:50:28 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 04:49:38 PM
Word.
I have been on 6 forums AND Facebook today, and that tired-ass shit is dominating EVERY ONE OF THEM.
I like the idea of just unfriending everyone who posts it. It's so CLEAN.
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 24, 2014, 12:45:17 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 23, 2014, 04:50:28 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 04:49:38 PM
Word.
I have been on 6 forums AND Facebook today, and that tired-ass shit is dominating EVERY ONE OF THEM.
I like the idea of just unfriending everyone who posts it. It's so CLEAN.
It seems I have already done so.
No idea what you guys mean,
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 23, 2014, 10:16:41 PM
Believing in supernatural shit is a thing. Not believing in it is too. To the believer the non believer looks all sorts of doomed and/or evil. To the non believer, believers look like potentially dangerous and/or hilarious deluded people.
Expecting them to stop pissing and shitting at each other is, to my mind, optimistic at best. Best solution is one side is knocked out. Can't see that happening either but where's the harm in Just laughing at the whole hooting match and occasionally scoring cheap, dirty yucks at the expense of one side or the other?
Curiously enough, I've gone most of my life without a lot of theist/atheist pissing and shitting, despite having both atheist and theist friends, and despite myself having gone through both theist and atheist phases.
Maybe I'm just a unicorn, but somehow I kinda doubt it.
I don't understand it.
Two of my closest friends just took week long media blackouts, replacing that input with Bible study. We never even talked about God until a few months ago (chronicled in the Some of It thread).
It just has no bearing on the type of person you are.
:?
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
...On my days off I am not getting out of bed until noon, voluntarily, for anybody.
I have a deep suspicion of anyone who would make me do otherwise for my supposed self-betterment.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 23, 2014, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 07:16:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 23, 2014, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
Not that I'm one of teh Chosen, but :cn:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/community.without.christ/35490.htm
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/06/a-humanistic-cult-split-in-atheist-church-movement-leads-to-denominational-chasm/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/16/atheists-set-to-go-on-global-missionary-tour-to-establish-godless-church-congregations-around-the-world/
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/07/260184473/sunday-assembly-a-church-for-the-godless-picks-up-steam
Well at least npr is in there.
*laughs* Yeah. The original story I read was in a print magazine but I can't find it and I forget what it was. I think the roommate recycled all the things again.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 24, 2014, 04:20:27 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 23, 2014, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 07:16:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 23, 2014, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
Not that I'm one of teh Chosen, but :cn:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/community.without.christ/35490.htm
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/06/a-humanistic-cult-split-in-atheist-church-movement-leads-to-denominational-chasm/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/16/atheists-set-to-go-on-global-missionary-tour-to-establish-godless-church-congregations-around-the-world/
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/07/260184473/sunday-assembly-a-church-for-the-godless-picks-up-steam
Well at least npr is in there.
*laughs* Yeah. The original story I read was in a print magazine but I can't find it and I forget what it was. I think the roommate recycled all the things again.
I remember seeing it elsewhere and from a reliable source that wasn't NPR.
Can't remember where though.
Thing is, I can understand the appeal of a spiritual community. I really can, even though I happen to be religious and paradoxically shun congregations as a matter of personal preference, but building a spiritual community around a mutual lack of spirituality seems odd to me. And while it may be worthwhile to the people involved, I can see how uncomfortable Christians and Glenn Beck would be all whoop whoop about this.
I'm in an odd place myself, even within my spiritual journey, so I probably shouldn't even comment. It's all glitchy on my end.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 04:29:04 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 24, 2014, 04:20:27 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 23, 2014, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 07:16:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 23, 2014, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on January 23, 2014, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 23, 2014, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 23, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that in the year 2014 that's still a hot topic.
It really seems like its more of a hot topic than it was even ten years ago. Or maybe I'm just paying more attention now.
There's an atheist movement now. They're building their own 'churches' and having their own 'services' on Sunday and whatnot. It's officially become a new cult/religion.
Not that I'm one of teh Chosen, but :cn:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/community.without.christ/35490.htm
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/06/a-humanistic-cult-split-in-atheist-church-movement-leads-to-denominational-chasm/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/16/atheists-set-to-go-on-global-missionary-tour-to-establish-godless-church-congregations-around-the-world/
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/07/260184473/sunday-assembly-a-church-for-the-godless-picks-up-steam
Well at least npr is in there.
*laughs* Yeah. The original story I read was in a print magazine but I can't find it and I forget what it was. I think the roommate recycled all the things again.
I remember seeing it elsewhere and from a reliable source that wasn't NPR.
Can't remember where though.
Thing is, I can understand the appeal of a spiritual community. I really can, even though I happen to be religious and paradoxically shun congregations as a matter of personal preference, but building a spiritual community around a mutual lack of spirituality seems odd to me. And while it may be worthwhile to the people involved, I can see how uncomfortable Christians and Glenn Beck would be all whoop whoop about this.
And actually that's dumb right there too. Theism and deism do not have a monopoly on spiritually based community. And atheism and agnosticism do not, as a matter of principle, reject spiritual community, even in the face of rejecting deity and immortality of the soul. You can find deep spiritual meaning in existence without gods or souls.
Twid,
One god, no souls. Wants to skew the equation.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 04:33:18 AM
I'm in an odd place myself, even within my spiritual journey, so I probably shouldn't even comment. It's all glitchy on my end.
...Certainty is really comfortable, and safe.
I think a spiritual path ought to be uncomfortable.
Just my thought, your mileage may vary, please drive through...
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on January 24, 2014, 05:32:49 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 04:33:18 AM
I'm in an odd place myself, even within my spiritual journey, so I probably shouldn't even comment. It's all glitchy on my end.
...Certainty is really comfortable, and safe.
I think a spiritual path ought to be uncomfortable.
Just my thought, your mileage may vary, please drive through...
Well, thing is, I would prefer to have a universe with no gods and immortality. And I find myself in a universe where, based on current data and current interpretation, at least one god exists and at least no souls exists. This is contrary to the point. I don't like it but I can't ignore it. I would rather be an atheist Buddhist. But, at the moment, based on what I know, I must accept that some sort of god exists, and that god did not see fit to make humans spiritually immortal.
Because I cannot get past the weirdness that is biological life in an unlikely universe without a god existing,
AND
I cannot get past the idea that I habitually stop existing every night, and therefore will not survive physical death when my brain irreparably breaks.
Twid,
Wants more data
And I feel strangely relieved every time I say that. That God is real, whatever God may be, and that I will not survive death.
I don't like it.
I hate it.
And I am relieved.
And I want to be proven wrong. Desperately.
If you want to worship MyLittlePony i wouldnt care, as long as youre a swell person... but what do i get instead?
To the right a bunch of fanatical assholes that "have faith in" a person that preached love and peace but do the opposite.
To the left a bunch of angry and passive-agressive assholes that think they are superior snowflakes (and usually with a correlation to libertardianism).
As I've stated before: "beliefs =/= actions" AND "intentions < thoughts < actions"
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
I'm having a crisis of faith, aren't I?
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
What it suggests to me is that we created the creator, as all other interpretations are too depressing to consider.
Quote from: Hoopla on January 24, 2014, 06:43:30 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
What it suggests to me is that we created the creator, as all other interpretations are too depressing to consider.
I'm starting to think that all interpretations are sufficiently depressing in their own way.
Mortality is horrible.
So is immortality.
Lack of agency behind the universe is horrible.
So is agency behind the universe.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 24, 2014, 06:43:30 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
What it suggests to me is that we created the creator, as all other interpretations are too depressing to consider.
I'm starting to think that all interpretations are sufficiently depressing in their own way.
Mortality is horrible.
So is immortality.
Lack of agency behind the universe is horrible.
So is agency behind the universe.
It is the terrible secret of space.
Quote from: Net on January 24, 2014, 07:51:41 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 24, 2014, 06:43:30 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
What it suggests to me is that we created the creator, as all other interpretations are too depressing to consider.
I'm starting to think that all interpretations are sufficiently depressing in their own way.
Mortality is horrible.
So is immortality.
Lack of agency behind the universe is horrible.
So is agency behind the universe.
It is the terrible secret of space.
I guess at this point, which terrible secret do we want, and which terrible secret do we actually get?
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AM
Quote from: Net on January 24, 2014, 07:51:41 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 24, 2014, 06:43:30 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
What it suggests to me is that we created the creator, as all other interpretations are too depressing to consider.
I'm starting to think that all interpretations are sufficiently depressing in their own way.
Mortality is horrible.
So is immortality.
Lack of agency behind the universe is horrible.
So is agency behind the universe.
It is the terrible secret of space.
I guess at this point, which terrible secret do we want, and which terrible secret do we actually get?
Please go stand by the stairs.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 05:52:15 AM
I cannot get past the idea that I habitually stop existing every night, and therefore will not survive physical death when my brain irreparably breaks.
Twid,
Wants more data
Shit, my reply evaporated... :argh!:
What I said was something like this:
Evidence is that the brain, during sleep, still has *some* cognitive function occurring, if nothing more than REM housecleaning/jungian symbolmaking...
It's just that memory formation is mostly inhibited, due to the brain's need to flush metabolic toxins out.
So...Twid is still *there*, except Twid is
not forming memory of Twid being there.
But Twid is still there about as much as anything is there, given what we know of particle physics.
So
are you
your ability to self-reflect? Is that the entirety of you? If that is not the entirety of you what IS the entirety of you?
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AM
How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us?
A friend on Fetlife claims that Jesus just forgot the safeword, and was too proud to 'fess up and ask... :wink:
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AMGiven that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
That's an entirely different question, probably just a human one.
Humans find psychological comfort in projecting meaning.
It's psychologically adaptive to make narrative out of what's really random shit happening, because this makes us feel we have more control than we actually do.
My own opinion? No meaning.
Meaning seems (to yours truly) to imply something that stands outside and "above," the system, conferring meaning...and I doubt there is that.
Even though intellectually I think it has value to
craft meaning, I can't seem to believe in the meanings and narratives I've crafted.
I think I'm naturally somewhat knurd in that respect?
At any rate, what could confer meaning on such a fantastic edifice? I mean, in the Hindu cosmology, even the Gods are subject to death and rebirth, right?
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 24, 2014, 06:43:30 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
What it suggests to me is that we created the creator, as all other interpretations are too depressing to consider.
I'm starting to think that all interpretations are sufficiently depressing in their own way.
Mortality is horrible.
So is immortality.
Lack of agency behind the universe is horrible.
So is agency behind the universe.
Idunno about "horrible" I'm more in the - hard to get your head around it - camp but, whatever the case turns out to be, I think it's awesome as fuck
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on January 24, 2014, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 05:52:15 AM
I cannot get past the idea that I habitually stop existing every night, and therefore will not survive physical death when my brain irreparably breaks.
Twid,
Wants more data
Shit, my reply evaporated... :argh!:
What I said was something like this:
Evidence is that the brain, during sleep, still has *some* cognitive function occurring, if nothing more than REM housecleaning/jungian symbolmaking...
It's just that memory formation is mostly inhibited, due to the brain's need to flush metabolic toxins out.
So...Twid is still *there*, except Twid is not forming memory of Twid being there.
But Twid is still there about as much as anything is there, given what we know of particle physics.
So are you your ability to self-reflect? Is that the entirety of you? If that is not the entirety of you what IS the entirety of you?
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AM
How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us?
A friend on Fetlife claims that Jesus just forgot the safeword, and was too proud to 'fess up and ask... :wink:
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AMGiven that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
That's an entirely different question, probably just a human one.
Humans find psychological comfort in projecting meaning.
It's psychologically adaptive to make narrative out of what's really random shit happening, because this makes us feel we have more control than we actually do.
My own opinion? No meaning.
Meaning seems (to yours truly) to imply something that stands outside and "above," the system, conferring meaning...and I doubt there is that.
Even though intellectually I think it has value to craft meaning, I can't seem to believe in the meanings and narratives I've crafted.
I think I'm naturally somewhat knurd in that respect?
At any rate, what could confer meaning on such a fantastic edifice? I mean, in the Hindu cosmology, even the Gods are subject to death and rebirth, right?
So are the Gaelic gods. Matter of fact, the gods of Ireland are proven in mythology to be totally killable by a human hand, with no extra magic involved.
But, ok, I form no new memories in between falling asleep and dreaming and dreaming is probably necessary for brain stuff.
I still experience nothing and form no new memories, and experience and memories are still dependent on machinery. Software is all fine and dandy, but once the computer breaks, the computer breaks and the program is lost.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 24, 2014, 08:52:09 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 24, 2014, 06:43:30 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
What it suggests to me is that we created the creator, as all other interpretations are too depressing to consider.
I'm starting to think that all interpretations are sufficiently depressing in their own way.
Mortality is horrible.
So is immortality.
Lack of agency behind the universe is horrible.
So is agency behind the universe.
Idunno about "horrible" I'm more in the - hard to get your head around it - camp but, whatever the case turns out to be, I think it's awesome as fuck
It is awesome. And awful. It can be both at the same time.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:53:18 AM
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on January 24, 2014, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 05:52:15 AM
I cannot get past the idea that I habitually stop existing every night, and therefore will not survive physical death when my brain irreparably breaks.
Twid,
Wants more data
Shit, my reply evaporated... :argh!:
What I said was something like this:
Evidence is that the brain, during sleep, still has *some* cognitive function occurring, if nothing more than REM housecleaning/jungian symbolmaking...
It's just that memory formation is mostly inhibited, due to the brain's need to flush metabolic toxins out.
So...Twid is still *there*, except Twid is not forming memory of Twid being there.
But Twid is still there about as much as anything is there, given what we know of particle physics.
So are you your ability to self-reflect? Is that the entirety of you? If that is not the entirety of you what IS the entirety of you?
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AM
How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us?
A friend on Fetlife claims that Jesus just forgot the safeword, and was too proud to 'fess up and ask... :wink:
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AMGiven that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
That's an entirely different question, probably just a human one.
Humans find psychological comfort in projecting meaning.
It's psychologically adaptive to make narrative out of what's really random shit happening, because this makes us feel we have more control than we actually do.
My own opinion? No meaning.
Meaning seems (to yours truly) to imply something that stands outside and "above," the system, conferring meaning...and I doubt there is that.
Even though intellectually I think it has value to craft meaning, I can't seem to believe in the meanings and narratives I've crafted.
I think I'm naturally somewhat knurd in that respect?
At any rate, what could confer meaning on such a fantastic edifice? I mean, in the Hindu cosmology, even the Gods are subject to death and rebirth, right?
So are the Gaelic gods. Matter of fact, the gods of Ireland are proven in mythology to be totally killable by a human hand, with no extra magic involved.
But, ok, I form no new memories in between falling asleep and dreaming and dreaming is probably necessary for brain stuff.
I still experience nothing and form no new memories, and experience and memories are still dependent on machinery. Software is all fine and dandy, but once the computer breaks, the computer breaks and the program is lost.
My personal theory is that "you" is the program. When the program runs, that's you. So you die and a couple of years later someone recreates the program, byte for byte, that's you as well. Human mind functions more like software than hardware, so it makes sense to me that it can stop, start, branch, restart, rewind, whatever...
This only works if either there's no soul or if the soul can "attach" to a new instance of the program. Only time will tell.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 24, 2014, 09:00:39 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:53:18 AM
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on January 24, 2014, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 05:52:15 AM
I cannot get past the idea that I habitually stop existing every night, and therefore will not survive physical death when my brain irreparably breaks.
Twid,
Wants more data
Shit, my reply evaporated... :argh!:
What I said was something like this:
Evidence is that the brain, during sleep, still has *some* cognitive function occurring, if nothing more than REM housecleaning/jungian symbolmaking...
It's just that memory formation is mostly inhibited, due to the brain's need to flush metabolic toxins out.
So...Twid is still *there*, except Twid is not forming memory of Twid being there.
But Twid is still there about as much as anything is there, given what we know of particle physics.
So are you your ability to self-reflect? Is that the entirety of you? If that is not the entirety of you what IS the entirety of you?
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AM
How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us?
A friend on Fetlife claims that Jesus just forgot the safeword, and was too proud to 'fess up and ask... :wink:
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:00:11 AMGiven that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
That's an entirely different question, probably just a human one.
Humans find psychological comfort in projecting meaning.
It's psychologically adaptive to make narrative out of what's really random shit happening, because this makes us feel we have more control than we actually do.
My own opinion? No meaning.
Meaning seems (to yours truly) to imply something that stands outside and "above," the system, conferring meaning...and I doubt there is that.
Even though intellectually I think it has value to craft meaning, I can't seem to believe in the meanings and narratives I've crafted.
I think I'm naturally somewhat knurd in that respect?
At any rate, what could confer meaning on such a fantastic edifice? I mean, in the Hindu cosmology, even the Gods are subject to death and rebirth, right?
So are the Gaelic gods. Matter of fact, the gods of Ireland are proven in mythology to be totally killable by a human hand, with no extra magic involved.
But, ok, I form no new memories in between falling asleep and dreaming and dreaming is probably necessary for brain stuff.
I still experience nothing and form no new memories, and experience and memories are still dependent on machinery. Software is all fine and dandy, but once the computer breaks, the computer breaks and the program is lost.
My personal theory is that "you" is the program. When the program runs, that's you. So you die and a couple of years later someone recreates the program, byte for byte, that's you as well. Human mind functions more like software than hardware, so it makes sense to me that it can stop, start, branch, restart, rewind, whatever...
This only works if either there's no soul or if the soul can "attach" to a new instance of the program. Only time will tell.
Hmmm.
I will ponder this.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 08:53:18 AM
I still experience nothing and form no new memories, and experience and memories are still dependent on machinery.
So you are the machinery?
When you first brought this up; I thought of something my girlfriend told me.
...Apparently I often mutter "I love you," in my sleep when I'm staying at her place.
So,what I think of as me still demonstrates some evidence of being there while I'm sleeping.
I've had a few instances of doing some rather bizarre things in an ostensibly awake state and not clearly remembering that I had done them.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 24, 2014, 09:00:39 AM
My personal theory is that "you" is the program. When the program runs, that's you.
I'm not sure, but will have to think about it too.
The sticky bit for me happens at the "top" of the personality pyramid. I keep asking myself "who is experiencing this", "who is the observer" and the answer always seems to allude to single point of observation. "I" can always "look" at my whole being, which suggests "I" am something beyond my body and mind.
Either this is a subtle trick of consciousness, the equivalent of an optical illusion, in which case it really doesn't factor, or there is either some kind of point of god or soul that exists separate from my meat and software, that views it all through the lense that is me.
So if the latter is the case (I don't know so I'm 50/50 on this) but if it is we have one of two plausible scenarios - Either there is one ultimate observer ("god") who experiences every manifestation of consciousness or we get one unique one, each ("soul")
Either way this thing is, by definition, external so why the hell would it be affected one way or another by physical hardware failure. In the "software" analogy, why would the programmer cease to exist if the motherboard melted? Get new hardware, run the software from a backup, experience continues...
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 24, 2014, 09:34:07 AM
The sticky bit for me happens at the "top" of the personality pyramid. I keep asking myself "who is experiencing this", "who is the observer" and the answer always seems to allude to single point of observation. "I" can always "look" at my whole being, which suggests "I" am something beyond my body and mind.
Either this is a subtle trick of consciousness, the equivalent of an optical illusion, in which case it really doesn't factor, or there is either some kind of point of god or soul that exists separate from my meat and software, that views it all through the lense that is me.
So if the latter is the case (I don't know so I'm 50/50 on this) but if it is we have one of two plausible scenarios - Either there is one ultimate observer ("god") who experiences every manifestation of consciousness or we get one unique one, each ("soul")
Either way this thing is, by definition, external so why the hell would it be affected one way or another by physical hardware failure. In the "software" analogy, why would the programmer cease to exist if the motherboard melted? Get new hardware, run the software from a backup, experience continues...
What makes you think you can't observe yourself?
Quote from: :regret: on January 24, 2014, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 24, 2014, 09:34:07 AM
The sticky bit for me happens at the "top" of the personality pyramid. I keep asking myself "who is experiencing this", "who is the observer" and the answer always seems to allude to single point of observation. "I" can always "look" at my whole being, which suggests "I" am something beyond my body and mind.
Either this is a subtle trick of consciousness, the equivalent of an optical illusion, in which case it really doesn't factor, or there is either some kind of point of god or soul that exists separate from my meat and software, that views it all through the lense that is me.
So if the latter is the case (I don't know so I'm 50/50 on this) but if it is we have one of two plausible scenarios - Either there is one ultimate observer ("god") who experiences every manifestation of consciousness or we get one unique one, each ("soul")
Either way this thing is, by definition, external so why the hell would it be affected one way or another by physical hardware failure. In the "software" analogy, why would the programmer cease to exist if the motherboard melted? Get new hardware, run the software from a backup, experience continues...
What makes you think you can't observe yourself?
Nothing, read the second paragraph again? What I'm saying is that it appears this way. It's kind of like - does the set of all sets also contain itself paradox and, quite honestly, I have no idea. So I explore the implications of both possibilities until it's proven one way or the other.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on January 24, 2014, 06:43:30 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:17:47 AM
I suppose that's natural. Instinct is to survive and reproduce, but what does survive mean, even within a spiritual context? Given that immortality of the soul exists, what does that entail after the various phases of the universe? We're currently in the stelliferous era, where stars are still being born. When stars stop forming and start dying (on the order of trillions of years, which, is well beyond the current age of the universe, 13.8 billion years) then it's all dying stars and black holes. No biological life. What do souls do during that whole damn time? Is immortality even worth it at that point? What do they do beyond that, into the degenerate era, and even way way way way way wayway beyond that when degenerate matter decays into diffuse, useless particles? Where are souls then?
Or, even better, where was I for the 13.8 billion years before August, 1981? I don't remember anything before August 1985, even though I was there.
Given that Heaven and Hell exist, what does Eternity mean? And not in the pure definition of the words, but what is the point? What is the point of everlasting love and reward vs everlasting hate and punishment? How is it that we can be more forgiving than God? How is it, at least in the Christian model, that God had to give himself up in the worse BDSM experiment ever in order to forgive us? Does that not make us more perfect than our perfect creator? That we are more readily able to forgive than he, since we require no blood sacrifice, unless in a twisted sense of communal vengeance?
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
AND WHAT IS THE MECHANISM?
What it suggests to me is that we created the creator, as all other interpretations are too depressing to consider.
I'm starting to think that all interpretations are sufficiently depressing in their own way.
Mortality is horrible.
So is immortality.
Lack of agency behind the universe is horrible.
So is agency behind the universe.
I just want to know the punchline.
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
I think the punchline may be related to this.
Mind is a myth! There is no such thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NOLopusG68 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NOLopusG68)
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 24, 2014, 12:51:36 PM
Quote from: :regret: on January 24, 2014, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 24, 2014, 09:34:07 AM
The sticky bit for me happens at the "top" of the personality pyramid. I keep asking myself "who is experiencing this", "who is the observer" and the answer always seems to allude to single point of observation. "I" can always "look" at my whole being, which suggests "I" am something beyond my body and mind.
Either this is a subtle trick of consciousness, the equivalent of an optical illusion, in which case it really doesn't factor, or there is either some kind of point of god or soul that exists separate from my meat and software, that views it all through the lense that is me.
So if the latter is the case (I don't know so I'm 50/50 on this) but if it is we have one of two plausible scenarios - Either there is one ultimate observer ("god") who experiences every manifestation of consciousness or we get one unique one, each ("soul")
Either way this thing is, by definition, external so why the hell would it be affected one way or another by physical hardware failure. In the "software" analogy, why would the programmer cease to exist if the motherboard melted? Get new hardware, run the software from a backup, experience continues...
What makes you think you can't observe yourself?
Nothing, read the second paragraph again? What I'm saying is that it appears this way. It's kind of like - does the set of all sets also contain itself paradox and, quite honestly, I have no idea. So I explore the implications of both possibilities until it's proven one way or the other.
Oh woopsie, lazy reading. I'm not sure if applying abstract mathematical theory to human consciousness is wise. The mind, in my mind, is more like a mirror: It has a reflection in it of everything it sees but that does not mean it contains the real thing. So the real you is not the you you observe, it is merely an abstraction. You can even say there is no such thing as a 'you' it is just a name you gave to a pattern you think you are seeing. As you said, akin to an optical illusion.
Thinking about this makes my brain go weird.
Quote from: :regret: on January 24, 2014, 02:10:18 PM
Thinking about this makes my brain go weird.
Mine too. I think that's one of the main reasons I spend so much time doing it :lulz:
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 24, 2014, 01:41:46 PM
Quote from: THE PHYTOPHTHORATIC HOLDER OF THE ADVANCED DEGREE on January 24, 2014, 06:39:07 AM
Given that Reincarnation is real, where does Samsara end? Where is the lesson over? What is the point in repeating life? Life on Earth specifically to boot?
I think the punchline may be related to this.
You know me, I don't believe things but I do explore the possibilites. If I had to pick one that I hoped was true, I suspect we're both crossing our fingers for something similar
Good thread. Posting so I can re-read and contribute.
Quote from: :regret: on January 24, 2014, 02:10:18 PM
So the real you is not the you you observe, it is merely an abstraction. You can even say there is no such thing as a 'you' it is just a name you gave to a pattern you think you are seeing. As you said, akin to an optical illusion.
Thinking about this makes my brain go weird.
...A name you give to a pattern you think you are seeing... :) Does feel weird, doesn't it?
It's more like a pattern that thinks it's seeing itself, the way I think of it.
The pattern exists but its a dynamic pattern, a program. It creates consciousness as a meta property or an emergent one or whatever and that consciousness trips over some kind of self referencing feedback loop or something and suddenly there's an "I" to think about. An "I" which "am" no less.
Either he gag is there is no "I" outside the pattern, in which case the pattern can always be expected to deliver "I" if replicated.
Alternatively there is a scenario that there's really an external agent or passenger which, by definition doesn't remember getting in the vehicle and is left to run through decades of what, to me at least, is pretty much a simulation, in terms of you die in this world you go somewhere different and do other shit.
I can't discount either possibility, although I prefer the neatness of the first one - I reckon it would look prettier if you made a diagram kinda thing.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 25, 2014, 01:06:04 AM
It's more like a pattern that thinks it's seeing itself, the way I think of it.
The pattern exists but its a dynamic pattern, a program. It creates consciousness as a meta property or an emergent one or whatever and that consciousness trips over some kind of self referencing feedback loop or something and suddenly there's an "I" to think about. An "I" which "am" no less.
Either he gag is there is no "I" outside the pattern, in which case the pattern can always be expected to deliver "I" if replicated.
Alternatively there is a scenario that there's really an external agent or passenger which, by definition doesn't remember getting in the vehicle and is left to run through decades of what, to me at least, is pretty much a simulation, in terms of you die in this world you go somewhere different and do other shit.
I can't discount either possibility, although I prefer the neatness of the first one - I reckon it would look prettier if you made a diagram kinda thing.
Hmmm. Kinda like Twid is a video game character that the player gets really absorbed in and sleeping is when the player logs out of the game?
That's and interesting thought. And I can kinda see it. I also lose my identity as Twid when I play a video game and assume the identity of the character I am playing. Say I'm playing STO, I stop being Twid and suddenly become Shrod.
Never thought of it in that particular frame but, yeah. How do you explain the idea of separate "soul" otherwise? We either are some kind of a germ which grows one of these bad boys and then heaven or come back as a snail kinda deal or else it's put in there by someone or some thing.
Both of these seem a bit of a weird way of going about it to me but fuck if I know.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on January 25, 2014, 01:37:58 AM
Never thought of it in that particular frame but, yeah. How do you explain the idea of separate "soul" otherwise? We either are some kind of a germ which grows one of these bad boys and then heaven or come back as a snail kinda deal or else it's put in there by someone or some thing.
Both of these seem a bit of a weird way of going about it to me but fuck if I know.
Interesting thoughts, these.