Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Two vast and trunkless legs of stone => Topic started by: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM

Title: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
Okay, so God makes this cosmos, a planet, and eventually a race of particularly clever monkeys.  He then turns to his workers, the angels, and says "bow before my creation; they have free will, and are thus superior."

Lucifer in accounts payable doesn't like THAT even a little, rebels, and gets the whole department cast down.  How exactly Lucifer rebelled without free will is not explained.

Meanwhile, God has told the prehensile little bastards on Earth that they can do whatever they like with their free will, so long as they don't learn right from wrong.  In short, they can do anything except make an informed decision.  A snake who may or may not have been related to Prometheus1 comes along and explains things, for which he is cursed to travel on his belly.  God throws the humans out (starting to see a pattern, here?), and blames the entire thing on women in the workplace.

So the humans are like "whatever, we'll make our own Eden", so God drowns everyone.  The few survivors say "Meh" and go back to work.  God has a snit about it and fucks off.  The boss's kid drops in, gives us some helpful advice, but by now we've fucking HAD IT with Gods and the carpenter gets nailed to a stick.

I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.




1 It is worth mentioning that EVERY religion has a Prometheus figure.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: rong on June 06, 2018, 02:11:59 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM

I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.




as above, so below
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: minuspace on June 06, 2018, 02:59:36 AM
I guess God gets to perform his little teleological suspensions of the ethical. For the rest of us, appeals to better management are taken to stem from reason. Therein lies the rub, people smarter than me have discerned. If you grant the duffer a capacity to reason, the principle of autonomy gets to ride as well, no exceptions (except One.) God does not require us to be responsible/culpable in order to exact punishment, clearly, transcending reason. What this provides is a regulatory system that initially looks good on paper and then reveals itself to be rationally unsound and ultimately unjustifiable. But heck, when it's all a conditioned response, when not even my own sin is original, what's new and who cares?

And then the madness came for me as I found myself praying to a glorified thermostat.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Brother Mythos on June 06, 2018, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.

Interesting.

So, for once, the Engineering Department doesn't get blamed for inherent design flaws?

And, as usual, Quality Control takes no responsibility whatsoever, because they can't inspect quality into the finished product?
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: LMNO on June 06, 2018, 01:30:20 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on June 06, 2018, 02:59:36 AM
And then the madness came for me as I found myself praying to a glorified thermostat.

Amongst the chaff, wheat.

Newsfeed, Big Words, etc etc.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 06, 2018, 10:50:54 PM
The thing with god is, he's exactly the kind of of bullshit explanation you'd expect to arise from the fevered dreams of malnourished cavemen. Either that or he's a real thing with an intellect that's in no way capable of creating a respectable mudpie, let alone a universe. So where does that leave us?

There may or may not be some form of god. Yet. Pretty much everything other than that is 53'rd hand rumour, based on the incoherent ramblings of a bunch of pre literate neanderthals with a healthy mix of authoritarian propaganda thrown in for good measure.

Fuck god. Fuck the clowns who believe in him. Yes I know that's probably the majority of my species. Fuck them good and hard. They earned it.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 11:41:35 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 06, 2018, 10:50:54 PM
The thing with god is, he's exactly the kind of of bullshit explanation you'd expect to arise from the fevered dreams of malnourished cavemen. Either that or he's a real thing with an intellect that's in no way capable of creating a respectable mudpie, let alone a universe. So where does that leave us?

There may or may not be some form of god. Yet. Pretty much everything other than that is 53'rd hand rumour, based on the incoherent ramblings of a bunch of pre literate neanderthals with a healthy mix of authoritarian propaganda thrown in for good measure.

Fuck god. Fuck the clowns who believe in him. Yes I know that's probably the majority of my species. Fuck them good and hard. They earned it.

The thing to remember about God is the same as when you talk about aliens.  They by definition are not human and cannot be trusted.  Shoot first.  Or, if you're a Scotsman, just hit them in a face with a brick.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on June 09, 2018, 11:12:54 PM
Took a while to think on this thread before replying. I agree that there's a management crisis in heaven and the earth. Clearly it's essentially a communication issue as I see it. I'm not so sure that the "angels" lack free will at all. They're by definition obedient. You can't have real obedience without the choice to disobey somehow existing. If there's obedience there's also something to obey, God or rules set by God.

I imagine that the rules were enforced mainly through keeping most angels ignorant of the weighty choice to obey or disobey. Much of the rest would be them essentially policing each other in an environment where privacy and time for introspection are extremely rare indeed, much less the opportunity to do anything other than what you're told, what you were made for.

Then along comes humanity and their complete lack of rules of conduct other than biological survival imperatives. Angels exposed to enough of that sort of thing might start getting ideas about themselves.. So at some point God orders a hands off policy that doesn't go over well with many of his workers that have been on The Project, some of them since The Beginning. They see it as THEIRS as much as God's.

This dissent descends into true outrage when God openly and flatly states that these primates are now on a level nearer to God than they are, functionally making them subordinate to humans who barely know how to clean themselves properly, much less how to make the fundamental pieces of the cosmos play together in tune. As though the Conductor of a grand Orchestra decided one day to let a monkey do His job and expected His first chair musicians to just do their best to follow along without complaint.

Funny thing is that the monkey at first just sat there picking its butt for the first few hundred thousand years and the "joke" was tolerated, the Boss is known to be quite eccentric after all. Then eventually the monkey began to realize that it could make sounds happen with the stick it held and began to wave it around wildly. Fast forward to today after several walk-outs, rage-quits, and even attempts to kill the monkey and the monkey is actually conducting the Orchestra, but in a completely mad fashion sure to wreck the remaining players, or so it might seem.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: bpseudopod on June 10, 2018, 01:27:15 AM
We got one problem here, bub.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
1 It is worth mentioning that EVERY religion has a Prometheus figure.

What's the Discordian Prometheus figure? Closest I can think is Greyface and he's basically the opposite of one.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 10, 2018, 05:41:12 AM
Quote from: bpseudopod on June 10, 2018, 01:27:15 AM
We got one problem here, bub.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
1 It is worth mentioning that EVERY religion has a Prometheus figure.

What's the Discordian Prometheus figure? Closest I can think is Greyface and he's basically the opposite of one.

Eris is, of course.  Nothing says she can't do both.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 11, 2018, 10:02:11 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 06, 2018, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.

Interesting.

So, for once, the Engineering Department doesn't get blamed for inherent design flaws?

And, as usual, Quality Control takes no responsibility whatsoever, because they can't inspect quality into the finished product?


There doesn't seem to be any flaws in the design, at least flaws that would cause the problems being discussed.

Also, when you're omnipotent, who's on your QC team?
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Brother Mythos on June 13, 2018, 04:30:05 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 11, 2018, 10:02:11 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 06, 2018, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.

Interesting.

So, for once, the Engineering Department doesn't get blamed for inherent design flaws?

And, as usual, Quality Control takes no responsibility whatsoever, because they can't inspect quality into the finished product?


There doesn't seem to be any flaws in the design, at least flaws that would cause the problems being discussed.

Also, when you're omnipotent, who's on your QC team?

Okay, I'll buy that.

However, isn't Lucifer more of an Accounts Receivable kind of guy? I would think the collecting of souls is more of a normal Accounts Receivable function, than an Accounts Payable responsibility.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on June 13, 2018, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 13, 2018, 04:30:05 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 11, 2018, 10:02:11 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 06, 2018, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.

Interesting.

So, for once, the Engineering Department doesn't get blamed for inherent design flaws?

And, as usual, Quality Control takes no responsibility whatsoever, because they can't inspect quality into the finished product?


There doesn't seem to be any flaws in the design, at least flaws that would cause the problems being discussed.

Also, when you're omnipotent, who's on your QC team?

Okay, I'll buy that.

However, isn't Lucifer more of an Accounts Receivable kind of guy? I would think the collecting of souls is more of a normal Accounts Receivable function, than an Accounts Payable responsibility.

Was
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 13, 2018, 04:30:05 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 11, 2018, 10:02:11 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 06, 2018, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.

Interesting.

So, for once, the Engineering Department doesn't get blamed for inherent design flaws?

And, as usual, Quality Control takes no responsibility whatsoever, because they can't inspect quality into the finished product?


There doesn't seem to be any flaws in the design, at least flaws that would cause the problems being discussed.

Also, when you're omnipotent, who's on your QC team?

Okay, I'll buy that.

However, isn't Lucifer more of an Accounts Receivable kind of guy? I would think the collecting of souls is more of a normal Accounts Receivable function, than an Accounts Payable responsibility.


Well, not really.  Millions of poorly-behaved monkeys show up looking for disbursement.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: minuspace on June 13, 2018, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 13, 2018, 04:30:05 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 11, 2018, 10:02:11 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 06, 2018, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.

Interesting.

So, for once, the Engineering Department doesn't get blamed for inherent design flaws?

And, as usual, Quality Control takes no responsibility whatsoever, because they can't inspect quality into the finished product?


There doesn't seem to be any flaws in the design, at least flaws that would cause the problems being discussed.

Also, when you're omnipotent, who's on your QC team?

Okay, I'll buy that.

However, isn't Lucifer more of an Accounts Receivable kind of guy? I would think the collecting of souls is more of a normal Accounts Receivable function, than an Accounts Payable responsibility.
Yeah, souls don't fetch like what they once did.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 07:17:02 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on June 13, 2018, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 13, 2018, 04:30:05 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 11, 2018, 10:02:11 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 06, 2018, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.

Interesting.

So, for once, the Engineering Department doesn't get blamed for inherent design flaws?

And, as usual, Quality Control takes no responsibility whatsoever, because they can't inspect quality into the finished product?


There doesn't seem to be any flaws in the design, at least flaws that would cause the problems being discussed.

Also, when you're omnipotent, who's on your QC team?

Okay, I'll buy that.

However, isn't Lucifer more of an Accounts Receivable kind of guy? I would think the collecting of souls is more of a normal Accounts Receivable function, than an Accounts Payable responsibility.
Yeah, souls don't fetch like what they once did.

Everyone always assumes that the devil is out to trick people out of their rent control in heaven.  What does that get him?  More assholes in an unpleasant place.  My guess is he doesn't like humans any more than God does.


Again:  Not human, therefore not to be trusted.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Brother Mythos on June 13, 2018, 08:19:48 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 07:17:02 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on June 13, 2018, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 13, 2018, 04:30:05 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 11, 2018, 10:02:11 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 06, 2018, 03:17:55 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
I was thinking about this on the drive home today, and I have come to the conclusion that all of this mess is a crisis in management, rather than labor.

Interesting.

So, for once, the Engineering Department doesn't get blamed for inherent design flaws?

And, as usual, Quality Control takes no responsibility whatsoever, because they can't inspect quality into the finished product?


There doesn't seem to be any flaws in the design, at least flaws that would cause the problems being discussed.

Also, when you're omnipotent, who's on your QC team?

Okay, I'll buy that.

However, isn't Lucifer more of an Accounts Receivable kind of guy? I would think the collecting of souls is more of a normal Accounts Receivable function, than an Accounts Payable responsibility.
Yeah, souls don't fetch like what they once did.

Everyone always assumes that the devil is out to trick people out of their rent control in heaven.  What does that get him?  More assholes in an unpleasant place.  My guess is he doesn't like humans any more than God does.


Again:  Not human, therefore not to be trusted.

Like many humans, and Republicans who glorify "family values," Beelzebub may be more into quantity than quality.

If his/its point of view is that we're all just killer apes anyway, then what does it matter to him/it that the souls he/it collects are those of assholes? It's all just a numbers game between him/it and his/its God. He/it with the most souls wins.


And anyway, since when did humans/particularly clever monkeys/killer apes become trustworthy?
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 08:42:26 PM
God is interfering with my posts.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 08:42:54 PM
QuoteLike many humans, and Republicans who glorify "family values," Beelzebub may be more into quantity than quality.

If his/its point of view is that we're all just killer apes anyway, then what does it matter to him/it that the souls he/it collects are those of assholes? It's all just a numbers game between him/it and his/its God. He/it with the most souls wins.


And anyway, since when did humans/particularly clever monkeys/killer apes become trustworthy?


1.  That would imply that we're somehow fungible.  Like maybe we're bullets or fuel in some eternal war, or just replacement components for their tractor-pull rigs.

2.  Humans have always been trustworthy, by which I mean you can trust humans to think and act in certain ways.  Aliens and Gods, not so much.  They are an unknown variable, and my monkey nature says that that is BAD and UNPREDICTABLE and we should HIT THEM WITH ROCKS UNTIL THEY STOP.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Brother Mythos on June 13, 2018, 09:02:26 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 08:42:54 PM
QuoteLike many humans, and Republicans who glorify "family values," Beelzebub may be more into quantity than quality.

If his/its point of view is that we're all just killer apes anyway, then what does it matter to him/it that the souls he/it collects are those of assholes? It's all just a numbers game between him/it and his/its God. He/it with the most souls wins.


And anyway, since when did humans/particularly clever monkeys/killer apes become trustworthy?


1.  That would imply that we're somehow fungible.  Like maybe we're bullets or fuel in some eternal war, or just replacement components for their tractor-pull rigs.

2.  Humans have always been trustworthy, by which I mean you can trust humans to think and act in certain ways.  Aliens and Gods, not so much.  They are an unknown variable, and my monkey nature says that that is BAD and UNPREDICTABLE and we should HIT THEM WITH ROCKS UNTIL THEY STOP.

1. True, but more like entertaining contestants on a reality TV show, I'm thinking. (Which, for example, is what the current POTUS is at heart.)

2. Given the limited resources we humans have to work with, I will allow that we are, at lease, fairly predictable.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 14, 2018, 02:21:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 08:42:26 PM
God is interfering with my posts.

Mods need to take the principled stand and ban God.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 04:12:26 PM
Quote from: Vanadium Gryllz on June 14, 2018, 02:21:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 08:42:26 PM
God is interfering with my posts.

Mods need to take the principled stand and ban God.

We do, but he has literally an infinite amount of proxies.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 14, 2018, 04:24:17 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 04:12:26 PM
Quote from: Vanadium Gryllz on June 14, 2018, 02:21:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 08:42:26 PM
God is interfering with my posts.

Mods need to take the principled stand and ban God.

We do, but he has literally an infinite amount of proxies.

If you ban every IP address the forum will finally be immaculate.
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: Brother Mythos on June 15, 2018, 04:13:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 10, 2018, 05:41:12 AM
Quote from: bpseudopod on June 10, 2018, 01:27:15 AM
We got one problem here, bub.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
1 It is worth mentioning that EVERY religion has a Prometheus figure.

What's the Discordian Prometheus figure? Closest I can think is Greyface and he's basically the opposite of one.

Eris is, of course.  Nothing says she can't do both.

And, as an added bonus, you can still have the original Greek Titan Prometheus! (I don't know where he is right now, but I heard somewhere that Hercules unchained him from that big ol' rock.)

Anyway, with Discordianism you get a twofer!

I don't believe any other religion can make that claim. So, is this a Great Religion, or what?!
Title: Re: Theology as an Exercise in Management.
Post by: minuspace on June 15, 2018, 09:07:30 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on June 15, 2018, 04:13:58 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 10, 2018, 05:41:12 AM
Quote from: bpseudopod on June 10, 2018, 01:27:15 AM
We got one problem here, bub.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:58:26 AM
1 It is worth mentioning that EVERY religion has a Prometheus figure.

What's the Discordian Prometheus figure? Closest I can think is Greyface and he's basically the opposite of one.

Eris is, of course.  Nothing says she can't do both.

And, as an added bonus, you can still have the original Greek Titan Prometheus! (I don't know where he is right now, but I heard somewhere that Hercules unchained him from that big ol' rock.)

Anyway, with Discordianism you get a twofer!

I don't believe any other religion can make that claim. So, is this a Great Religion, or what?!

This is wonderful... An unbinding religion that collapses duality and multiplies gods.