Hello again, Dears,
I've been looking at Holy Nonsense. It is a most substanceful tome and pleasing to the eye, and I am duly grateful for it, but here
(http://blog.holist.hu/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Chaos_is_Energy.png)
I think it copeth out a bit.
Creation and destruction are also a very important pair of apparent opposites. To choose the creative in the hope of an all-creative trip is, I have found, a sure way to invite a shitload of destruction into my life. Ask any manic-depressive (when depressed, preferably).
You're in luck! We went through this about ten years ago.
This is the relevant post (https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,5054.msg495986.html#msg495986), but the whole thread is worth it, if you're into that sort of thing (and considering this is Principia Discussion, I guess you are).
Because we used to use Photobucket, and because they became content-restricting assholes, some of the images aren't there. I attached the New Chart below.
Quote from: LMNO on November 13, 2018, 12:54:44 PM
You're in luck! We went through this about ten years ago.
This is the relevant post (https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,5054.msg495986.html#msg495986), but the whole thread is worth it, if you're into that sort of thing (and considering this is Principia Discussion, I guess you are).
Because we used to use Photobucket, and because they became content-restricting assholes, some of the images aren't there. I attached the New Chart below.
:lulz:
okay
I think
that no matter what,
your life is going to include creative and destructive elements
Destructive energy, used properly, is in service to the creation of something better. Sometimes you have to tear down something in order to make room for something else.
Destructive energy without a constructive goal becomes a disease. Think about the sourpuss negative people you know, who never have anything good to say, only criticism and negativity. This sucks, that sucks, break break break. In the end, they're bitter and alone.
But when you destroy, if you do it from a place of of love, it has a different quality. Decay fertilizes the soil. It makes the flowers grow, and that's beautiful.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 13, 2018, 09:53:33 PM
Think about the sourpuss negative people you know, who never have anything good to say, only criticism and negativity.
I hate those people. :rogpipe:
Creation and destruction, although opposites in one sense, both imply change.
There is another dichotomy possible, that between dynamic and static. For example, a bunch of boulders scattered randomly in a field would be representative of static disorder, while a row of stone pillars might represent static order (at least until the wind and sand wear them away).
You could arrange preservation/stagnation opposite creation/destruction, but somehow splitting stasis into two elements feels like cheating, since they're just two ways of viewing what is basically the same thing. So that leaves me at creative/destructive/static vs. ordered/disordered/???.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 13, 2018, 09:53:33 PM
I think
that no matter what,
your life is going to include creative and destructive elements
Destructive energy, used properly, is in service to the creation of something better. Sometimes you have to tear down something in order to make room for something else.
Destructive energy without a constructive goal becomes a disease. Think about the sourpuss negative people you know, who never have anything good to say, only criticism and negativity. This sucks, that sucks, break break break. In the end, they're bitter and alone.
But when you destroy, if you do it from a place of of love, it has a different quality. Decay fertilizes the soil. It makes the flowers grow, and that's beautiful.
Mr Cramulus, you wax veraciously poetic!
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 14, 2018, 02:34:57 AM
You could arrange preservation/stagnation opposite creation/destruction, but somehow splitting stasis into two elements feels like cheating, since they're just two ways of viewing what is basically the same thing. So that leaves me at creative/destructive/static vs. ordered/disordered/???.
If you divide the static into the preserved and the stagnating, you can also divide the dynamic into development and disruption (which often go hand in hand, too). But where are we going with this?
Quote from: Dildo Argentino on November 14, 2018, 04:15:19 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 14, 2018, 02:34:57 AM
You could arrange preservation/stagnation opposite creation/destruction, but somehow splitting stasis into two elements feels like cheating, since they're just two ways of viewing what is basically the same thing. So that leaves me at creative/destructive/static vs. ordered/disordered/???.
If you divide the static into the preserved and the stagnating, you can also divide the dynamic into development and disruption (which often go hand in hand, too). But where are we going with this?
How about the ADSR envelope of subtractive synthesis. It describes the stages, shape, or outline of change over time. Attack, the amount of time "slope", or velocity at which signal reaches maximum amplitude; Delay, how long it maintains peak; Sustain, the level maintained after peak; and Release, how long it takes to fade? Because, what was this about again?
I would like to take this moment to point out that this page is from the original Principia.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 14, 2018, 12:17:23 PM
I would like to take this moment to point out that this page is from the original Principia.
We were all not pointing that out. :crankey:
Why, I am told there are even some mistakes in the Bible!
Why are you like this?
Like what?
Look, this thing is my baby. That doesn't mean it's perfect or that I can't take criticism, but if you're gonna come in here and go HOLY NONSENSE HAS PROBLEMS and then quote one of the five sections pulled from the Principia and act like this is a Holy Nonsense problem IN PRINCIPIA DISCUSSION, I'm gonna get my hackles up.
Completely my bad for failing to notice that the section I found a little less than perfect was actually a quote from the original Principia, and if this has caused you any discomfort, I apologize sincerely. I started with praise for your work, and I meant it, it is a beautiful book and I'm planning on printing a copy or two. I might give them away during the festive season! But that particular thing caught my eye (as it appears, ten year after it was discussed here, so it ought to be old hat, anyway, unless I was purposefully misinformed), so I thought Principia Discussion may be a good place to mention it... Despite the fact that most every time I opened my mouth here most people ended up professing I was an unreconstructed asshole, very probably with assburgers, I still don't think so. The reason I'm come back every now and then is simply that I can't get my head around always ending up that street with a bunch of people who profess to be fond of a way of thinking I also have had a massive soft spot for for decades. Also, the fun.
It's okay, these things aren't marked after all.
I'm in a weird mood and that's not on you.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 14, 2018, 05:02:26 PM
Look, this thing is my baby. That doesn't mean it's perfect or that I can't take criticism, but if you're gonna come in here and go HOLY NONSENSE HAS PROBLEMS and then quote one of the five sections pulled from the Principia and act like this is a Holy Nonsense problem IN PRINCIPIA DISCUSSION, I'm gonna get my hackles up.
When have you known him NOT to be a passive-aggressive shitbag? :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 15, 2018, 02:56:34 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 14, 2018, 05:02:26 PM
Look, this thing is my baby. That doesn't mean it's perfect or that I can't take criticism, but if you're gonna come in here and go HOLY NONSENSE HAS PROBLEMS and then quote one of the five sections pulled from the Principia and act like this is a Holy Nonsense problem IN PRINCIPIA DISCUSSION, I'm gonna get my hackles up.
When have you known him NOT to be a passive-aggressive shitbag? :lulz:
Ow, don't be like that!!
So Dildo, did you read that post from 2008 (which, I now realize, was really from 2005); and did you have any thoughts or comments on it? Because I assumed that was your intent for starting the OP.
Quote from: LMNO on November 15, 2018, 01:34:23 PM
So Dildo, did you read that post from 2008 (which, I now realize, was really from 2005); and did you have any thoughts or comments on it? Because I assumed that was your intent for starting the OP.
Well I don't trust my memory the way I used to, but I swear when I first saw your comment, all I saw was the single sentence about this having been covered ten years ago. So either you changed it later, or I just overlooked it. I think you'll agree that both are quite possible. :D Any rate, I haven't, but I will, thanks for linking it and for asking.
That sentence was a link to the page.
Quote from: Dildo Argentino on November 15, 2018, 02:21:41 PM
Quote from: LMNO on November 15, 2018, 01:34:23 PM
So Dildo, did you read that post from 2008 (which, I now realize, was really from 2005); and did you have any thoughts or comments on it? Because I assumed that was your intent for starting the OP.
Well I don't trust my memory the way I used to, but I swear when I first saw your comment, all I saw was the single sentence about this having been covered ten years ago. So either you changed it later, or I just overlooked it. I think you'll agree that both are quite possible. :D Any rate, I haven't, but I will, thanks for linking it and for asking.
If it was edited, there would be italicized script underneath it, saying so. But you know that.
Quote from: LMNO on November 15, 2018, 02:28:59 PM
That sentence was a link to the page.
I literally only saw "You're in luck! We went through this about ten years ago." Which is not to say there wasn't anything else there, but if there was, I failed to notice it. I have noticed it now, and I will read up on it at the earliest opportunity.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 15, 2018, 04:00:04 PM
If it was edited, there would be italicized script underneath it, saying so. But you know that.
Well perhaps I had known, but I forgot. It was a while back.
Well LMNO had a long notorious history of shady dishonest behavior, so it was an honest enough mistake for you to make.
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 15, 2018, 06:33:24 PM
Well LMNO had a long notorious history of shady dishonest behavior, so it was an honest enough mistake for you to make.
Hey!
:argh!:
:crankey:
:madbanana:
:tgrr:
:cheney:
:mccain:
:trolling:
:umad:
But seriously, Dildo quoted your response, so does he believe you used mind beams to change his quoted text?
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 15, 2018, 06:47:07 PM
But seriously, Dildo quoted your response, so does he believe you used mind beams to change his quoted text?
Holist gonna Holist.
I'm comfortable concluding that indeed, bath salts are a hell of a drug.
I haven't read the whole discussion, most of the linked content is dead, sadly. I did read the post you linked to, and I liked your characterisations of the pairings (though I don't understand the Atlantean stuff).
The most halfassed thing that occured to me as I was reading was that this reminds me of the courtly cards in the tarot. Both the coins/cups/swords/sticks and the Princess/Queen/Prince/Knight sequences are supposed to be analogous to earth/water/air/fire, so the courtly cards form a matrix similar to the New Chart. But that's as far as that went...
The other thing I've been thinking about is whether the Order/Disorder and the Creation/Destruction dimensions are on the same level, and whether they are independent. I think order/disorder are qualities that tend to be ascribed to states of affairs, while creative/destructive are ascribed to processes. It even feels quite natural to describe creation as movement from disorder to order, and destruction as movement from order to disorder. Then I tried to think of a way of defining order and disorder in term of creation and destruction, and I could only come up with: order is the precondition of destruction and the result of creation, while disorder is the precondition of creation and the result of destruction - but that's saying the same thing. Also, where do I fit the static-dynamic duality into all this?
The "this smells like hippie shit, it's still dualistic, and we like breaking things" bit was very much after my own heart. But this is still dualistic, isn't it?
Also, all four appear to be perspective/ascriber-dependent. The very same thing is seen as beautious order by some and as atrocious disorder by others (industrial agriculture versus permaculture, regimented, Prussian-style schools and project-based learning, person-centered schools), and the very same acts are seen as creative and destructive (often in sequence).
That's as far as I got for now.
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 15, 2018, 06:47:07 PM
But seriously, Dildo quoted your response, so does he believe you used mind beams to change his quoted text?
Well, you know it would take considerably less than mind-beams ( :
But on the balance, I admit that by far the most likely explanation is simply that I was being a dozy fuck. Maybe some vague recollections about... never mind. dozy fuck. :D
Um, yeah. That's why it was "Big Word is great, BUT.
I kinda think that the original framers of the Principia1 did believe in a hierarchy between creative and destructive forces. While Order/Disorder are equal and up for interpretation, their advice is to embrace creative over destructive, whatever that means to you.
Whether this "creativity is better than destruction" hierarchy is moral, or cosmic, or comic, or spiritual, or arbitrary--is anybody's guess.
1 the OG Chairfuckers, you know who I mean
Quote from: Cramulus on November 15, 2018, 08:48:14 PM
I kinda think that the original framers of the Principia1 did believe in a hierarchy between creative and destructive forces. While Order/Disorder are equal and up for interpretation, their advice is to embrace creative over destructive, whatever that means to you.
Whether this "creativity is better than destruction" hierarchy is moral, or cosmic, or comic, or spiritual, or arbitrary--is anybody's guess.
1 the OG Chairfuckers, you know who I mean
In a way, it seems self-aggrandizing to me. (And I should know about that shit!) As if I were ever in a position to know for sure. "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good." - Mephisto in Goethe's Faust
Quote from: Dildo Argentino on November 16, 2018, 06:14:26 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 15, 2018, 08:48:14 PM
I kinda think that the original framers of the Principia1 did believe in a hierarchy between creative and destructive forces. While Order/Disorder are equal and up for interpretation, their advice is to embrace creative over destructive, whatever that means to you.
Whether this "creativity is better than destruction" hierarchy is moral, or cosmic, or comic, or spiritual, or arbitrary--is anybody's guess.
1 the OG Chairfuckers, you know who I mean
In a way, it seems self-aggrandizing to me. (And I should know about that shit!) As if I were ever in a position to know for sure. "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good." - Mephisto in Goethe's Faust
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
As if I were ever in a position to know for sure
whatever that means to you
:D Okay fair enough. But let me reframe it:
Firstly, how do I get to know what creativity means to me? What's the advice for uncertainty about that? I don't think it's all that rare.
Also, I think for people who are pretty sure about what creativity and and destructiveness mean to them, it might be bad advice.
Of course I don't really see how advising people in general is possible beyond the profoundly self-evident (which does come in handy at times).
Soooo...........
It sounds like you're going down the a priori/a posteriori road with a large backpack of epistemology, hauling a wheelbarrow full of semiotics.
You might want to deal with that before even approaching the OP.
Quote from: LMNO on November 16, 2018, 04:22:21 PM
Soooo...........
It sounds like you're going down the a priori/a posteriori road with a large backpack of epistemology, hauling a wheelbarrow full of semiotics.
You might want to deal with that before even approaching the OP.
The OP? What I wrote? How could I have written it without approaching it? Long pencil?
Also, frankly, no. Must be some weird acousics.
Quote from: Dildo Argentino on November 16, 2018, 03:32:32 PM
Firstly, how do I get to know what creativity means to me? What's the advice for uncertainty about that?
Aren't you the Pope? Get Eris on the horn, ask her directly.
This.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 16, 2018, 05:11:16 PM
Quote from: Dildo Argentino on November 16, 2018, 03:32:32 PM
Firstly, how do I get to know what creativity means to me? What's the advice for uncertainty about that?
Aren't you the Pope? Get Eris on the horn, ask her directly.
Yeah you know I do that, but I'm acutely aware she could be having me on!
OMIGAWDS YU GUYS YU GUYS
....WHAT IF 'D.O.G.' SPELLED.... "CAT"?
:ahhh:
That was the only time I laughed in that movie.
Liar. You were a pre-teen when that came out, at least. No pre-teen straight boy in the mid-80s was that woke NOT to laugh at Booger.
Quote from: LMNO on November 16, 2018, 07:02:43 PM
....WHAT IF 'D.O.G.' SPELLED.... "CAT"?
Tac, I hoge Entlish arghatrophy.
Quote from: LMNO on November 16, 2018, 08:56:49 PM
Liar. You were a pre-teen when that came out, at least. No pre-teen straight boy in the mid-80s was that woke NOT to laugh at Booger.
I was 12, but you're right, I liked Booger's character arc there. But not so much the rest.