Foucault's Discipline & Punish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline_and_Punish) may be the most important book I've read in years.
In it, Foucault discusses the transition between the sovereign mode of power and what replaced it. He takes us from the public torture and execution to the modern prison. He documents in meticulous detail how the new "modality of power" manifested itself through several institutions: the prison, the military, the hospital, the asylum, and the school. Foucault documents how new methods of control quickly spread from one institution to the others, in the ultimate service of creating a "disciplined society".
The thesis of Discipline & Punish, put briefly, is something like this: We did not abandon the old ways because they were cruel. We abandoned them because they were ineffective. The new modality of power which followed the French Revolution is much more subtle and pervasive. We help operate it. Power is no longer held by a singular sovereign who can be overthrown, it's been distributed in a way to disguise its locus. Modern power does not manifest itself in a way that can be resisted. It's pervasive in that it fills every interaction we have, it expresses itself through what Foucault calls a "microphysics of power". We're the ones observing each other and applying the pressure of normalization.
Just to illustrate the above (dense) paragraph -- let's look at the Jury. It used to be that "justice" flowed from some noble, then it was handed to judges because nobles kept getting decapitated by the families of the "guilty". Then it was handed to a "jury of peers", so that people would feel like they were responsible for a lawful society. It's not that a "jury of peers" is inherently good at ruling on matters of justice - it's there so that you believe the verdict came from your peers and not the state. You can't lynch a jury. And if you did, it wouldn't change anything.
And that is a microcosm of how power is distributed and maintained. Nobody really holds any power, but what little they have is a tool to reenforce a greater structure of power. Look at Occupy Wall st - there was a public acknowledgment that the bankers are cutthroat bastards who have been systemically screwing us. So what now? Do we lynch the bankers? It would make no difference. The bankers hold no power. They would just be replaced by more bankers who are beholden to the same power structure and would therefore pull the exact same shit. If you talk about changing the banks, the people you're talking to will tell you all the reasons we need banks and the current institutions and hierarchies need to be maintained.
The executioner's face is no longer hidden - Vader's mask came off and Luke's face is staring back at him.
One of the main concepts in Foucault's description of power is discipline. There is this idea of the "disciplined society".
dis·ci·pline
noun \ˈdi-sə-plən\
: control that is gained by requiring that rules or orders be obeyed and punishing bad behavior
: a way of behaving that shows a willingness to obey rules or orders
: behavior that is judged by how well it follows a set of rules or orders
The goal of disciplining a soldier is to turn him into an extension of the officer's will. Just as a soldier's gun should be a part of him, something he can control as effortlessly as his own limbs, a soldier is a similar instrument to his leader. And that leader is an instrument to another leader, and so forth up the hierarchy.
The goal of a disciplined society is that the lowest tiers are in harmony with the values of the upper tiers. Prison, mental health, education -- the goals of these institutions are to produce docile subjects who are extensions of the current power structures.
At some level, that's all that "homework" is, right? A way of getting the child to internalize the values of the institution while he's not actually there? It takes discipline to do your homework. And we tell students---this is preparation for the workplace. We are turning you into parts of a machine which produces ... itself.
I'm really just scratching the surface here, there's a lot in this book worth discussing. But what's been on my mind recently is this idea of Discipline, and how we individuals should relate to it. (individuation in the context of power, btw, also worth talking about, but let's save that for another time)
On one level, being disciplined is worthwhile. There are a lot of rewards for being able to focus and get shit done, being respectful of the hierarchy, being able to internalize a set of rules, etc. I don't think you can really get anywhere in western civilization without discipline.
But on another level, being disciplined is dangerous. It means you're under control, an object of power. If you're not disciplined, you're more skeptical and critical about the Mission Statement, the War, the Hegemony.
Sometimes I'm sitting in some corporate training and I just want to excuse myself and never come back. I can't help but think about the power and personal control I give up for that paycheck and 401K. We've all gotta do it. Which makes me wonder, was I doing myself a disservice by reading all this Foucault? Is being undisciplined something I should actually strive for? Am I just confusing myself and making myself less effective at my job by brewing up all this cynicism and criticism? To what degree am I served by being an iconoclast? Isn't it better to be focused on acquiring more power?
Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2014, 03:05:18 PM
Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals.
the trap is that your goals are (probably) already aligned with the top of the pyramid. Is "don't get thrown in jail" part of your immediate strategy?
Foucalt talks about how discipline isn't just punishment, it's rewards too. The things you want (internet connection, new kayak, retirement fund, family, being seen as cool, etc) make you beholden to the power structure and normalize your behaviors.
A lot of the things which grant us status (money, academic degrees, expensive hobbies) are privileges granted to those that Play the Game well.
QuoteMaybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist.
I think this is the right direction. The Keep Your Fucking Mouth Shut principle. Give the appearance of compliance while doing your own thing.
Don't resist power. Create subnetworks of power - communities and communication networks. Subvert it in a way that is invisible to the pyramid's eye.
Interesting stuff here, Cram. Thanks.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2014, 03:05:18 PM
Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz
I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
I think many would at least alter their behavior (no 'u' for you for bad behavior) significantly.
It's all conditioning, inadvertent or not. rarely is a shit given about understanding/education.
Obviously, this is a main point of discordia, that there is an underlying order beyond/within chaos, and we should all march to the tune of our own drummer. Collectively, we are Beethoven's 9th symphony.
The shit is right.
That's why I'm here.
It's an honor.
Also, I really had a moment of illumination when i first read that the executioner wears the mask to protect HIMSELF (or herself, strap down those bubbies, no one will ever suspect it).
I thought he/she just liked heavy metal music.
Never was surprised though when you read about botched executions and you later find out the executioner was completely shitfaced.
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2014, 03:05:18 PM
Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz
I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
...
From the rhetoric I take it you value discipline over education... Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 AMI think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
I think many would at least alter their behavior (no 'u' for you for bad behavior) significantly.
It's all conditioning, inadvertent or not. rarely is a shit given about understanding/education.
I agree that in the absence of authority (being the law, or the church) people would engage in more destructive antisocial behavior like theft and murder...
so why then is self discipline needed?
I want to live in a world where I won't be murdered,
therefore we need external discipline, (ie cops and churches) Yes?
But along with that, we get all this social control we don't necessarily want or need, but it helps keep things stable...
Quote from: Cramulus on May 21, 2014, 12:02:58 PM
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 AMI think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
I think many would at least alter their behavior (no 'u' for you for bad behavior) significantly.
It's all conditioning, inadvertent or not. rarely is a shit given about understanding/education.
I agree that in the absence of authority (being the law, or the church) people would engage in more destructive antisocial behavior like theft and murder...
so why then is self discipline needed?
I want to live in a world where I won't be murdered,
therefore we need external discipline, (ie cops and churches) Yes?
But along with that, we get all this social control we don't necessarily want or need, but it helps keep things stable...
ultimately, self-discipline is not-needed. it's just another paradox PARADOX ALERT
I'm just speaking from my own perspective.
come on, take it another step, come to a conclusion
Quote from: LuciferX on May 21, 2014, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2014, 03:05:18 PM
Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz
I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
...
From the rhetoric I take it you value discipline over education... Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.
Thanks for that Faul. Isn't 'Let it Be' also what phil spector whispered after he murdered lana clarkson?
We certainly have some wise ones here and I quickly appreciate you.
But realize, it's also what you take from it that indicates to you, your own character.
I was just agreeing with my rhetoric there man, trying to make friends by ass kissing!!! I can't pass someone a doobie in the grace of cyberspace.
It's just my silly perspective, like yours.
I need some self discipline, FOR NOW. and the kind i need really is different than the kind most need it seems. To summarize, a lot of things are difficult for me that are easy for others and vicey versey. Im fine with it. For others i think it causes cognitive dissonance. But fuck them. In a lot of ways life is very natural to me when i fill myself like water in its vessel.
That's one way that discordia has helped me. It helped me eradicate the order in my life that was doing far more harm than good and keeping me from growing as a lizard pig chimp thingy.
i didn't even know i made that last post, i was getting to something...
Quote from: Cramulus on May 21, 2014, 12:02:58 PM
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 AMI think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
I think many would at least alter their behavior (no 'u' for you for bad behavior) significantly.
It's all conditioning, inadvertent or not. rarely is a shit given about understanding/education.
I agree that in the absence of authority (being the law, or the church) people would engage in more destructive antisocial behavior like theft and murder...
so why then is self discipline needed?
I want to live in a world where I won't be murdered,
therefore we need external discipline, (ie cops and churches) Yes?
But along with that, we get all this social control we don't necessarily want or need, but it helps keep things stable...
I think we're on the same page. If nothing else, we've got the same publishing company.
As a child, a young thing, and now an older thing i really didn't have a problem with someone telling me what to do. THE PROBLEM is if i don't agree of understand their perspective, I've always asked 'why?' for further insight, education, and growth. Sometimes their answer to 'why?' is 'because i said so' or just 'because'. IT IS VERY WELL KNOWN deep inside that there is NO practical or loving reason for their demands, rather they are trying to browbeat me into the compliance of their own belief system. That alone should tell you enough about their belief system, but further research into it frequently leads to dogmatic juxtapositions that screw the 'why guy' and reward the greyface.
Coincidence or phenomenon?
Quote from: Cramulus on May 21, 2014, 03:03:26 PM
come on, take it another step, come to a conclusion
Yesterday, i saw 6 geese swimming in the lake outside my home.
One parent in front, 4 babies lined perfectly, one parent in back; all swimming in unison and harmony.
And i thought, the geese marines must really fucking kick tailfeather! :lulz:
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on May 21, 2014, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2014, 03:05:18 PM
Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz
I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
...
From the rhetoric I take it you value discipline over education... Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.
Thanks for that Faul. Isn't 'Let it Be' also what phil spector whispered after he murdered lana clarkson?
We certainly have some wise ones here and I quickly appreciate you.
But realize, it's also what you take from it that indicates to you, your own character.
I was just agreeing with my rhetoric there man, trying to make friends by ass kissing!!! I can't pass someone a doobie in the grace of cyberspace.
It's just my silly perspective, like yours.
I need some self discipline, FOR NOW. and the kind i need really is different than the kind most need it seems. To summarize, a lot of things are difficult for me that are easy for others and vicey versey. Im fine with it. For others i think it causes cognitive dissonance. But fuck them. In a lot of ways life is very natural to me when i fill myself like water in its vessel.
That's one way that discordia has helped me. It helped me eradicate the order in my life that was doing far more harm than good and keeping me from growing as a lizard pig chimp thingy.
i didn't even know i made that last post, i was getting to something...
Right. My character is persistently questioned. And that's where the perspective matters. If you think this is all a matter of opinion, then yes, that is silly. By extension, what distinguishes your self-discipline from the orders to which you were previously subject, is probably just semantics.
I mean this not to be crude but to draw attention to the source from which many learn self-discipline. In my limited experience, the most rigorous programs have, explicitly or not, borrowed heavily from martial traditions. Now you see where I am going with this, and yes, forms such as Aikido or Tai-Chi can serve a s notable exceptions. Still, having any of that discipline without self-knowledge will result in your being used as a pawn. That is why I emphasize the education, which when correctly applied, naturally gives rise to discipline. I think otherwise we run the risk of mistakenly showing-up at the next right-wing rally, that's all.
Look at me - My greatest disappointment is not having a cut a record with this guy :hitlerbanjo:
Quote from: LuciferX on May 21, 2014, 05:35:37 PM
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on May 21, 2014, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: JamesStrangefellow on May 21, 2014, 03:58:53 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2014, 03:05:18 PM
Self discipline is the only form of discipline I personally am able to comply with. Any external order will be processed as a suggestion. My complicity will be depend upon my immediate strategy and goals. Maybe I obey. Maybe I fool the authority into thinking I've obeyed. Maybe I raise a middle finger or a fist. Depends on the situation but what I'm not conditioned to do is just obey because it's an order. I somehow managed to dodge that particular indoctrination. I'm often appalled by the behaviour of the ones who didn't but not always - it's a backdoor mind hack after all - sometimes it can be exploited for profit and/or lulz
I think ultimately self discipline is what's needed.
How many people out there would start killing, raping, pillaging, littering, if it were no longer 'against the law'?
How many of their respective faiths would do the same if they knew for certain their 'god', 'heaven', and/or 'hell' didn't exist?
...
From the rhetoric I take it you value discipline over education... Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.
Thanks for that Faul. Isn't 'Let it Be' also what phil spector whispered after he murdered lana clarkson?
We certainly have some wise ones here and I quickly appreciate you.
But realize, it's also what you take from it that indicates to you, your own character.
I was just agreeing with my rhetoric there man, trying to make friends by ass kissing!!! I can't pass someone a doobie in the grace of cyberspace.
It's just my silly perspective, like yours.
I need some self discipline, FOR NOW. and the kind i need really is different than the kind most need it seems. To summarize, a lot of things are difficult for me that are easy for others and vicey versey. Im fine with it. For others i think it causes cognitive dissonance. But fuck them. In a lot of ways life is very natural to me when i fill myself like water in its vessel.
That's one way that discordia has helped me. It helped me eradicate the order in my life that was doing far more harm than good and keeping me from growing as a lizard pig chimp thingy.
i didn't even know i made that last post, i was getting to something...
Right. My character is persistently questioned. And that's where the perspective matters. If you think this is all a matter of opinion, then yes, that is silly. By extension, what distinguishes your self-discipline from the orders to which you were previously subject, is probably just semantics.
I mean this not to be crude but to draw attention to the source from which many learn self-discipline. In my limited experience, the most rigorous programs have, explicitly or not, borrowed heavily from martial traditions. Now you see where I am going with this, and yes, forms such as Aikido or Tai-Chi can serve a s notable exceptions. Still, having any of that discipline without self-knowledge will result in your being used as a pawn. That is why I emphasize the education, which when correctly applied, naturally gives rise to discipline. I think otherwise we run the risk of mistakenly showing-up at the next right-wing rally, that's all.
Look at me - My greatest disappointment is not having a cut a record with this guy :hitlerbanjo:
I agree with the heart of your sentiment wholeheartedly.
Understanding leads to discipline not the other way around.
That's how i try to do it.
Discipline without understanding is fear. :argh!:
One time someone told me no one can love what they fear.
I would also say perspective and opinion are two entirely different things to me, but there is a lot of overlap i guess.
One is inherently aware of their opinion but not of their perspective?
Once perspective develops awareness it becomes opinion?
just typing stuff out here...
QuoteI would also say perspective and opinion are two entirely different things to me, but there is a lot of overlap i guess.
One is inherently aware of their opinion but not of their perspective?
Once perspective develops awareness it becomes opinion?
Opinions are vain speculation serving as surrogates to thought: most people don't even develop their own, so awareness plays no part. The perspective would be in discerning the ground of understanding upon which differing opinions share a more primordial unity. For all the change and futile exchange of opinions, we have forgotten that once disclosed clearing of similarity. Over and against these dancing shadows it remains again the UNKNOWN KNOWN. Always there withdrawing before those things you mistake for thoughts.
Quote from: LuciferX on May 21, 2014, 07:43:43 PM
QuoteI would also say perspective and opinion are two entirely different things to me, but there is a lot of overlap i guess.
One is inherently aware of their opinion but not of their perspective?
Once perspective develops awareness it becomes opinion?
Opinions are vain speculation serving as surrogates to thought: most people don't even develop their own, so awareness plays no part. The perspective would be in discerning the ground of understanding upon which differing opinions share a more primordial unity. For all the change and futile exchange of opinions, we have forgotten that once disclosed clearing of similarity. Over and against these dancing shadows it remains again the UNKNOWN KNOWN. Always there withdrawing before those things you mistake for thoughts.
lighten up lucifer!!!! jesus christ!
what are you focusing on?
what are you filtering your energy through?
again, i appreciate your whateverthefuckyouwanttocallit. but you ain't the alpha and/or the omega ALONE.
Goodbye
I caught this thread back when it was posted and meant to come back to it.
Now that I have, it's been all spagged up by vandals!
Not a clean-sweep, still, it might be workable again?
Quote
And that is a microcosm of how power is distributed and maintained. Nobody really holds any power, but what little they have is a tool to reenforce a greater structure of power. Look at Occupy Wall st - there was a public acknowledgment that the bankers are cutthroat bastards who have been systemically screwing us. So what now? Do we lynch the bankers? It would make no difference. The bankers hold no power. They would just be replaced by more bankers who are beholden to the same power structure and would therefore pull the exact same shit. If you talk about changing the banks, the people you're talking to will tell you all the reasons we need banks and the current institutions and hierarchies need to be maintained.
This is a downright diabolical worldview. Of course no one has absolute power in our system, its the most gnarled and complicated clusterfuck in human history. But that doesnt mean that concrete power isnt real, and that you cant make meaningful changes to the system if you have the resources and you play your cards right. Turning power into this omnipresent omnipotent abstraction doesnt do anything but protect real concrete power by getting you to chase abstractions instead.
And really, the idea that power manifests in "every interaction we have" is horseshit. Of course we are all effected by the system, thats because we are all a part of it. Theres no point worrying yourself to death because the system has a certain degree of influence on you, everything you come in contact with has influence on you. All the people that make up your social circle have influence on you, theatens have an influence on you, fucking solar flares have an influence on you. You arent an alien visiting this universe in a hermetically sealed spacesuit made of skin. Youre rolling around in it like a pig, youre breathing it in every second, youre balls deep in this motherfucker.
There will always be power, and there will always be systems of power that organize people en mass. Thats just what humans do. Dont worry about it. Chillax. Stressing about it is like stressing out over the weather. Sometimes the weather fucks you, but you just do what you can to deal with it, you dont agonize over the fact that weather exists. Dont stress over the system you live in. Deal with it. Those people talking about how we really need banks and the current institutions? Punch those motherfuckers in the face. Im not joking. Anyone who thinks that we really really
need investment bankers deserves a guillotine. Currently it is against the law to lob the heads off of idiots, but there will come a time for that. If not now, later.
Life Tip: if you read a book by a frenchman, assume every word is a lie until proven otherwise.
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
You arent an alien visiting this universe in a hermetically sealed spacesuit made of skin. Youre rolling around in it like a pig, youre breathing it in every second, youre balls deep in this motherfucker.
:mittens:
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
And really, the idea that power manifests in "every interaction we have" is horseshit. Of course we are all effected by the system, thats because we are all a part of it. Theres no point worrying yourself to death because the system has a certain degree of influence on you, everything you come in contact with has influence on you. All the people that make up your social circle have influence on you, theatens have an influence on you, fucking solar flares have an influence on you. You arent an alien visiting this universe in a hermetically sealed spacesuit made of skin. Youre rolling around in it like a pig, youre breathing it in every second, youre balls deep in this motherfucker.
What Foucault points out is that this contemporary mode of power is actually different from how it was historically distributed. A Sovereign power is not present in every interaction, you can actually hide from it, subvert it, build a little life outside of it. It's a hierarchical form of power - top down. By making the public the input for "why everybody needs discipline" rather than some dude in a castle on a hill, it created a completely different type of power. One that is more gentle, but also more pervasive.
QuoteThere will always be power, and there will always be systems of power that organize people en mass. Thats just what humans do. Dont worry about it. Chillax. Stressing about it is like stressing out over the weather. Sometimes the weather fucks you, but you just do what you can to deal with it, you dont agonize over the fact that weather exists. Dont stress over the system you live in. Deal with it.
with all due respect, fuck that in all caps
There are different modes of power, with largely different effects on the individual. Studying their differences and origins helps us understand
why we have things like juries and investment banks.
"don't think about power, it's not going anywhere so just deal with it" is serf talk.
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
Anyone who thinks that we really really need investment bankers deserves a guillotine. Currently it is against the law to lob the heads off of idiots, but there will come a time for that. If not now, later.
That time has passed. The current mode of power cannot be altered via beheadings like a sovereign power could. There will never be another guillotine style revolution in the west, and the reasons for that are buried in the French and American revolutions.
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
Quote
And that is a microcosm of how power is distributed and maintained. Nobody really holds any power, but what little they have is a tool to reenforce a greater structure of power. Look at Occupy Wall st - there was a public acknowledgment that the bankers are cutthroat bastards who have been systemically screwing us. So what now? Do we lynch the bankers? It would make no difference. The bankers hold no power. They would just be replaced by more bankers who are beholden to the same power structure and would therefore pull the exact same shit. If you talk about changing the banks, the people you're talking to will tell you all the reasons we need banks and the current institutions and hierarchies need to be maintained.
This is a downright diabolical worldview. Of course no one has absolute power in our system, its the most gnarled and complicated clusterfuck in human history. But that doesnt mean that concrete power isnt real, and that you cant make meaningful changes to the system if you have the resources and you play your cards right. Turning power into this omnipresent omnipotent abstraction doesnt do anything but protect real concrete power by getting you to chase abstractions instead.
And really, the idea that power manifests in "every interaction we have" is horseshit. Of course we are all effected by the system, thats because we are all a part of it. Theres no point worrying yourself to death because the system has a certain degree of influence on you, everything you come in contact with has influence on you. All the people that make up your social circle have influence on you, theatens have an influence on you, fucking solar flares have an influence on you. You arent an alien visiting this universe in a hermetically sealed spacesuit made of skin. Youre rolling around in it like a pig, youre breathing it in every second, youre balls deep in this motherfucker.
There will always be power, and there will always be systems of power that organize people en mass. Thats just what humans do. Dont worry about it. Chillax. Stressing about it is like stressing out over the weather. Sometimes the weather fucks you, but you just do what you can to deal with it, you dont agonize over the fact that weather exists. Dont stress over the system you live in. Deal with it. Those people talking about how we really need banks and the current institutions? Punch those motherfuckers in the face. Im not joking. Anyone who thinks that we really really need investment bankers deserves a guillotine. Currently it is against the law to lob the heads off of idiots, but there will come a time for that. If not now, later.
Life Tip: if you read a book by a frenchman, assume every word is a lie until proven otherwise.
Holy shit, where did you come from and how did you find us? I think I love you Ron Paul.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 02, 2014, 01:44:54 PM
That time has passed. The current mode of power cannot be altered via beheadings like a sovereign power could. There will never be another guillotine style revolution in the west, and the reasons for that are buried in the French and American revolutions.
This! We know how power shifts nowadays - hostile takeovers. A business model that the established oligarchy cannot defend against. Buy them up, shut them down, strip their assets, lay off the staff and move on. Aggressive, disruptive business models bombarding the defenceless in a theatre of abstract wealth distribution. Take all the assets, you get the governments and the military thrown in as a job lot.
Open Source is coming. Plutocracy will be annihilated. If we play it right, very little blood will be spilled. All the power, financial, governmental and military is always up for grabs. All you need is a new kind of hand that's better at grabbing.
If you have a tiny brain it's always easiest to latch onto the least significant point a smarter person said and distort the hell out of it.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 02, 2014, 01:44:54 PM
QuoteThere will always be power, and there will always be systems of power that organize people en mass. Thats just what humans do. Dont worry about it. Chillax. Stressing about it is like stressing out over the weather. Sometimes the weather fucks you, but you just do what you can to deal with it, you dont agonize over the fact that weather exists. Dont stress over the system you live in. Deal with it.
with all due respect, fuck that in all caps
There are different modes of power, with largely different effects on the individual. Studying their differences and origins helps us understand why we have things like juries and investment banks.
"don't think about power, it's not going anywhere so just deal with it" is serf talk.
Then what do you call "power is subtle and all pervasive and there is nothing we can do to effect it"?
Quote
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
Anyone who thinks that we really really need investment bankers deserves a guillotine. Currently it is against the law to lob the heads off of idiots, but there will come a time for that. If not now, later.
That time has passed. The current mode of power cannot be altered via beheadings like a sovereign power could. There will never be another guillotine style revolution in the west, and the reasons for that are buried in the French and American revolutions.
This is where this viewpoint becomes pure evil. When I said "dont worry about power" I was wording my point bad. My point is that the system does have a pervasive and subtle effect on us, but everyone lives in a system with similar effects on them. Humans self organize into big systems like this, on pretty much every continent on the planet fuckhuge systems like ours have arised. Zulus, Romans, Aztecs, Imperial Japan, Mongolia, its pretty safe to say that this is human nature. Humans are designed to organize into groups, what Foucalt is doing is drawing a false semantic connection between this natural self organizing tendency and concrete power by giving them the same name. He then proceeds to assume that because you cant get rid of one(which again, is like complaining you cant get rid of the weather. Even if we could destroy the current system completely people would just make another one.) you cant alter the other.
Thats where I call shenanigans. You can alter power, you just have to take a different route than before the French and American Revolutions. Naturally different systems manifest power in different ways. If you cant just kill the assholes in charge to change things then why the fuck did they kill Kennedy and MLK? The difference between this system and the old system is that power just isnt well labeled. It doesnt wear and a crown, and most importantly, there is no one person in charge you can behead. Our system is a monument to Humanities ability to build things so complicated probably no one can understand it. But you can still effect it in meaningful ways, which is what the people in concrete positions of power are doing right now. They dont have absolute control, no one does, even the old kings didnt or they wouldnt have been beheaded, but they can effect things.
Concrete power is real and it can be changed. Focusing on the "subtle and pervasive" aspects of power is a losing life script. Its worrying about things that you probably dont have much power over while lumping in things you can meaningfully change in with them. This is a deadly feedback loop, because youll keep focusing on how "power" manifests in the little interactions you have with people and your trips to the grocery store ect ect and youll see how you cant really meaningfully effect it. Then because youve lumped concrete power under the same general label of "power" youll say "See, theres nothing I can do to change power." And youll have a constant source of feedback reinforcing this worldview where you are powerless. Foucalts whole argument is a sleight of hand and its just plain
evil on top of that.
Seriously, dont trust the French.
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 04:57:26 PM
Then what do you call "power is subtle and all pervasive and there is nothing we can do to effect it"?
Foucault doesn't say we can't affect it
He says we can't decapitate it
Foucault, by the way, doesn't think power is evil or that it shouldn't be concentrated. It's just a tool. If you're the one its being used against, it's good to understand what exactly we're talking about. Because the way things are right now, the guillotine can't really solve anything. The antisocial behaviors of governments and corporations are generated by a mutually sustained system of rewards and punishments, not by one evil guy collecting taxes for personal profit.
QuoteQuote
That time has passed. The current mode of power cannot be altered via beheadings like a sovereign power could. There will never be another guillotine style revolution in the west, and the reasons for that are buried in the French and American revolutions.
This is where this viewpoint becomes pure evil. When I said "dont worry about power" I was wording my point bad. My point is that the system does have a pervasive and subtle effect on us, but everyone lives in a system with similar effects on them. Humans self organize into big systems like this, on pretty much every continent on the planet fuckhuge systems like ours have arised. Zulus, Romans, Aztecs, Imperial Japan, Mongolia, its pretty safe to say that this is human nature. Humans are designed to organize into groups, what Foucalt is doing is drawing a false semantic connection between this natural self organizing tendency and concrete power by giving them the same name. He then proceeds to assume that because you cant get rid of one(which again, is like complaining you cant get rid of the weather. Even if we could destroy the current system completely people would just make another one.) you cant alter the other.
Saying that the current power balance is just a result of human nature sounds like a cop-out.
The school to prison pipeline
The pay-to-win criminal justice system
The bichromatic spectrum of american politics,
these aren't just ubiquitous structures which naturally arise from "human nature", or the fact that we live in groups, there are specific historical reasons for their existence.
QuoteThats where I call shenanigans. You can alter power, you just have to take a different route than before the French and American Revolutions. Naturally different systems manifest power in different ways. If you cant just kill the assholes in charge to change things then why the fuck did they kill Kennedy and MLK? The difference between this system and the old system is that power just isnt well labeled. It doesnt wear and a crown, and most importantly, there is no one person in charge you can behead. Our system is a monument to Humanities ability to build things so complicated probably no one can understand it. But you can still effect it in meaningful ways, which is what the people in concrete positions of power are doing right now. They dont have absolute control, no one does, even the old kings didnt or they wouldnt have been beheaded, but they can effect things.
I don't think any of that is in disagreement with Foucault
QuoteConcrete power is real and it can be changed. Focusing on the "subtle and pervasive" aspects of power is a losing life script. Its worrying about things that you probably dont have much power over while lumping in things you can meaningfully change in with them. This is a deadly feedback loop, because youll keep focusing on how "power" manifests in the little interactions you have with people and your trips to the grocery store ect ect and youll see how you cant really meaningfully effect it. Then because youve lumped concrete power under the same general label of "power" youll say "See, theres nothing I can do to change power." And youll have a constant source of feedback reinforcing this worldview where you are powerless. Foucalts whole argument is a sleight of hand and its just plain evil on top of that.
Seriously, dont trust the French.
I think we've seen examples in recent years of power shifts, and how that can happen rather organically through a deliberate attention to those subtle and pervasive interactions.
For example - homosexuals experience less oppression now than they did 20 years ago. The shift happened in part due to legislation (concrete power), but to pave the way for that, we had to participate in the consensus. Prejudice had to become uncool, socially, before legislators started to follow suit.
That's why I don't see the current distribution of power as necessarily a bad thing (though clearly it's concentrated in some bad places)- it's probably better than sovereign power. The fact that it changes more slowly and is insulated against revolution is a double edged sword. All those people posting politics on social networks are actually playing a role in broad change.. In olden times, having a low opinion of the Crown was something you'd have to keep quiet for fear of retribution. Sovereign power reacted to challenges as if they were a duel of wills between two entities, and that resulted in hundreds of years of public executions and failed coups - Now public dissent is a recognized and necessary part of the political process, and those little social interactions between groups are part of it too.
Mostly agree with you here. But I just cant abide the idea that application of hard power cant solve anything. The meme that the people in power cant be forcibly pushed out of power exists precisely to protect the people in power. These same people dont even buy it themselves, hence domestic drones, militarized police ect. This isnt to disparage softer applications of power, such as your example of the homosexual movement, its just you cant get in the mindset where thats the only option on the table ever because there are situations where its just plain useless. No one at JP Morgan is quaking in their $1,000 designer shoes at the Occupy facebook page. Im not saying that we should flay the flesh from the bones of every BOA executive and hang their entrails around the New York Stock exchange like Christmas tinsel. Im just saying there is a special mead hall in Valhalla for anyone that does.
We don't need to flay flesh from bones. Money = power. Take all their money or (even better) make it obsolete, redistribute the power.
I can take my moderation in moderation, still,
Death's pace, at any rate, does not cary all aloft.