Principia Discordia

I know I'm probably wasting my breathe, but I'll say this anyway:

I challenge all of you who hate Bush so much and think he is the worst thing since Hitler to listen to his inaugural speech tomorrow.  I don't expect you to watch the whole inauguration so I'll help you out.  Him and Cheney will be sworn in around 12:00 EST, and his speech will follow their swearing in.  It is said to only run about 17 minutes, so not even that long.  It will be on TV, streamed live on the internet, and will be on the radio so, no matter what you're doing, or where you live, you should be able to catch.

Personally, I think libs are funny and obviously a misguided folk, but I caught all of their convention.  In fact, I never realized so much time and so many different speeches could be given talking about 4 months of one man's life spent on a boat, but they sure did it.  Kerry's speech was especially good stuff.  Anyway, the point is I am challenging you to surprise me and actually give Bush your ear for under 20 minutes of your day tomorrow and see what the guy has to say about where he intends to lead us in the next four years.  I doubt many of you will, but prove me wrong.  If there's one thing I can't stand, it's those who will only listen to their own point of view.

And that's that. :wink:

That was me, but you probably guessed that.  Damn no making me login shit... :?

I'll watch, but there is one thing that I won't be able to get past, even if he gives a wonderful, moving speech that actually utilizes proper syntax and doesn't make him sound like a retarded monkey....

he is a dirty fuckbag liar who is seriously undermining everything America stands for and he is NOT to be trusted under any circumstances.


8)

"he is a dirty fuckbag liar who is seriously undermining everything America stands for".

Always with the propaganda?  If you don't like Iraq, cool, but America does stand for freedom and democracy and that's what he is trying to spread.  Shit...

Not that I want this to digress into a debate.  My first post was all I wanted to say.  If this turns into a debate, people will miss that.  I'll stop now. :wink:

I don't really understand what's so important about listening to the speech.
Just because he says a thing, doesn't mean he means that thing.
Just because he makes a promise, doesn't mean he'll keep that promise.
Who cares what he says?  I'm only interested in what he does.
Jeez, even I've enough gift at rhetoric to know that rhetoric can't be counted on.  And his speech writers are professionals.

Quote from: Voice of Truthfreedom and democracy and that's what he is trying to spread.  Shit...

Don't you get it? We don't believe that! But I guess I'll keep the rest of my debating in the other thread.

I have watched parts of his speeches (not many, I admit), so I don't really feel the need to this time.

I have no TV.  Ah well, I'll do with a transcript off CNN or something.  I'll deal with it on Friday too, as I have my Reason and Argument exam that day (although it could be fun to go through that and see how it is structured... :) )

Well to those who won't watch it, feel free to never use the "close-minded" label on me ever again. :wink:

Feel free to jump up my butt.  Watching some dipshit read off a teleprompter is about as worthwhile a use of my time as drinking nail polish remover, and not a tenth as much fun.

although, the fact that he reads it off of a teleprompter just makes it that much funnier when he spews out some malaprop or garbles his syntax...how the fuck does someone who can't even talk get to be president, anyway?

I guess we really did misunderestimate him...

8)

I was planning to watch it on the internet tomorrow. Just to hear what he has to say.
But honestly, it's hard to take seriously someone who calls the President of Russia, Vladimir Putin,  "Pootie-Poot."
It's just flat ass embarrassing having that man as our president.

I certainly 'misunderestimated' him, I thought he was a gonner after the pretzel incident....besides, everyone knows he's the monkey and he dances to the tune of the Organ grinders.

I decided I was lying about watching his speech...I'm not gonna bother...I've got a poker game that same day, and given the direction that our economy is headed, it may be my last best chance to get rich, so fuck Shrub and his recycled, redundant, retarded speech....

8)

1) Bush is not the second Hitler. Hitler was smart and charismatic. Bush is just fucking retarded. If anything, Cheney, Ashcroft/Gonzales, and Rumsfeld are the second Hitler.
2) Comparing the Bush administration to Hitler would dignify all of the past administrations of this country, something I'd never do. (Although this current administration is exceptional incompetent, opportunistic, and immoral) It'd also be implying that Hitler was an isolated case, and not just one in a long line of fucking asshole authority figures
3) I agree with what the communist bastard and EraPassing said. Bush could make an inspirational speech, and it'd still be a lie. He just prefers making a total fucking seemingly illiterate fool of himself. Part of me is glad we don't have a charismatic asshole like Clinton in office anymore, because it galvanizes the left more.
4) Even if Bush gives the fucking sermon on the mount at the inaugural address, it still doesn't change that he spent 40 million goddamn dollars on this stupid ass ceremony. That's money that could be feeding the hungry, clothing and sheltering the cold, curing the diseased, etc. (OMG I'M A MARXIST) I mean, it's not like there's a monumental disaster going on
5) However, I will watch the inauguration, because it will probably be fucking hilarious. I mean, I can only hope it's half as entertaining as those debates were. I hadn't laughed that hard in a long time. "Internets" has become a household word for me. It's a shame I can't get a ride to DC to hold up a "Fuck Bush" sign. Oh well. Maybe I'll just write a bitchy letter. I,Äôm getting long-winded. I already regret not just responding to this topic with ,ÄúGOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE,Äù. What the fuck is a Republican doing on a Discordian message board anyway?

Quote from: Chaplin_Sinatra_Fonzarell(OMG I'M A MARXIST)

OMG your a Marxist!  A Discordian one no less!  Run!

On a more serious point, wouldnt be a good idea to watch the speech so you have a ticklist next time you want to say what he didnt do?  I mean, we know he is a liar already, but more ammo cant hurt.  Supressive effect of firepower etc..

"As President of these United States, I'd like to mispronunciate several things.  I'd like to thank Jesus Christ on a stick, and my own bad-ass daddy.  I'd like to thank Saddam, but Dick tells me to shut the Hell up about that.  See, like right now he's wavin' like a Wetback that's just got across the border and flippin' me off!  Hey, Dick!

Lots of people think I'm not their President.  How wrong they are!  I couldn't BE more Presidential!  We have an old saying in Texas: "You can put lipstick on a pig, but you can't put your Dick in. . . fool me. . .won't get fooled again!  

I'll conclude by saying that So-damn Insane better watch his ass, because we're comin for him!  What?  No, that ain't Saddam at Gitmo, that's Arab Santa Claus, shut up Dick.  Saddam, watch it!  Don't mess with Texas!"

There, now nobody needs to watch it.

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell to those who won't watch it, feel free to never use the "close-minded" label on me ever again. :wink:

I dunno.  I think I'd rather be labelled "close-minded to the lies of a proven opportunistic, genocidal assbag like Bush" than be labelled "so freakin gullible I'll believe whatever he says at a $40mil bash where everyone is doing their level best to keep him from looking like the assbag the rest of the country already knows he is."

You may want to watch it for  this (http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/21017/) alone.

The first post of this thead, seems to assume that all "Bush-haters" supported the Democratic Party, or John Kerry. This assumption would be inaccurate. Many people only supported Kerry out of general fear and loathing of Bush, and some abstained or voted third party because they found that selecting between the major candidates would be a "lesser of the two evils", etc.

It also assumes that all, or at least most "Bush-haters" do not attempt to be informed about the positions and values of politicians they disagree with. This again would be inaccurate.

Personally, I know where Bush stands... I have kept track of his decisions, speeches, and related news. And being that I know where he stands, I will not, and did not support him. Niether would I have supported Kerry, because I had also kept track of him, and did not entirely trust him, even though I am a so-called "liberal".   I have issues and values that I care about, and I can't trust any of the major candidates to represent them.

People can be a lot more complicated than political propaganda make them seem....

Quote from: Voice of Truth"he is a dirty fuckbag liar who is seriously undermining everything America stands for".

Always with the propaganda?

Interesting that it's "Propaganda" if one of us say it, but the "Gods' Honest Truth" if one of you neocons say it. What you see above is an opinion, voiced openly and clearly. That is not propaganda. If you want to see honest-to-god propaganda, it is really easy to find. Tune in to Fox News.

Quote from: ScribeYou may want to watch it for  this (http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/21017/) alone.

I'd be surprised if that made it to the screen. Maybe on CBS (or the Internet), but I doubt any other network would broadcast those images.

Quote from: EraPassing

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell to those who won't watch it, feel free to never use the "close-minded" label on me ever again. :wink:

I dunno.  I think I'd rather be labelled "close-minded to the lies of a proven opportunistic, genocidal assbag like Bush" than be labelled "so freakin gullible I'll believe whatever he says at a $40mil bash where everyone is doing their level best to keep him from looking like the assbag the rest of the country already knows he is."

Well fecking put.

Quote from: wishfarple"As President of these United States, I'd like to mispronunciate several things. I'd like to thank Jesus Christ on a stick, and my own bad-ass daddy. I'd like to thank Saddam, but Dick tells me to shut the Hell up about that. See, like right now he's wavin' like a Wetback that's just got across the border and flippin' me off! Hey, Dick!

Lots of people think I'm not their President. How wrong they are! I couldn't BE more Presidential! We have an old saying in Texas: "You can put lipstick on a pig, but you can't put your Dick in. . . fool me. . .won't get fooled again!

I'll conclude by saying that So-damn Insane better watch his ass, because we're comin for him! What? No, that ain't Saddam at Gitmo, that's Arab Santa Claus, shut up Dick. Saddam, watch it! Don't mess with Texas!"

There, now nobody needs to watch it.

Have my kids

Quote from: AnonymousI challenge all of you who hate Bush so much and think he is the worst thing since Hitler to listen to his inaugural speech tomorrow.  

I WOULDN'T MISS IT.  TALUFA AND I ARE GOING TO PLAY THE "BUSH DRINKING GAME".  EVERY TIME THAT DUMBFUCK MANGLES HIS OWN LANGUAGE, WE HAVE TO DRINK A SHOT OF GOLDSCHLAGER.

WE HAVE YET TO MAKE IT THROUGH ONE OF HIS "SPEECHES".

CHEF D,
KNOWS A FUCKING MORON WHEN HE SEES ONE.

Quotehe is trying to spread. Shit...

That's the most accurate thing you've ever said about GWB. You can stop now, there's nowhere to go but down from here.

And I won't be watching the speech because I've got midterms to take.

So there, you close-minded conservative cocksocket. How's that for alliteration?

Quote from: SheckyInteresting that it's "Propaganda" if one of us say it, but the "Gods' Honest Truth" if one of you neocons say it.

RAH!

8)

You all should watch my speech tomorrow. It'll be MY BEST ONE YET. I've been working REALLY HARD on it.





(http://cagle.com/working/050119/fairrington.gif)

I am sorry VoT, but I am not a Bush hater. I am more of a
Bush intense disliker with a dash of malaprop envy mixed in.
Just how does he do that, anyway? I have been trying to invent
new words for stuff all my life and the only one I have come up
with so far is viscifrop. It's that little bit of skin that, well, look
it up sometime.

Anyway, I will be busy at noon slaving away so the American
economy won't be derailed by idlers who leech off hard-working
Americans. Wouldn't want to be accused of being a slacker.
Maybe I can find a bar at noontime where they can put it up
on the TV. Maybe they will have closed caption so I can read
somebody misspell his mispronounciations. Or maybe they
will have the latest WWE Smackdown. About that same, isn't it?

Anyway, good luck with the positive reinforcement of your way
of thinking. I hope you get little inauguration goosebumps all
over.

And no looking at Laura's tits! Naughty VoT. You should be
ashamed of yourself.

(BTW, I love you, man. You are such an inspiration. Don't take
it personally though. gnomes aren't into that kind of sex.
Humans are so greasy. Yuck!)

Quote from: President BushYou all should watch my speech tomorrow. It'll be MY BEST ONE YET. I've been working REALLY HARD on it.

Like Bush ever wrote anything in any of his speeches.  Clinton may have had trouble keeping his dick in his pants, but he wrote his own speeches and he could even enunciate all the words. :?

I kind of stopped worrying about it since Bush and the rest of the US Government don't exist in my reality. I figure that if they do then maby one day I'll care.

QuoteWell to those who won't watch it, feel free to never use the "close-minded" label on me ever again.

I still think you're a close minded cocksocket (thank you AgComp, I love you more then the gnome).

In my mind anyone who supports Bush must support at least one of these things:

1) Gay Marriage is Evil
2) War is Good
3) No proof = GWB must be right
4) Bigotry
5) The Slaughter of the English Language
6) The Down Fall of the American Education System (you know, the No Child Left Unfucked Act)
7) An even bigger national debt
8) Ruining our protected wildlife reserves (My good hell, Leavitt is the biggest shitfuck.  He was Gov. of Utah for awhile, and really did his best to shit on the Marshlands here, and it was the EPA that stoped him)
9) More oil!
10) More money for GWB and Dick

There are two people I like in Bush's current cabinent.  Colin Powell (who is leaving because Bush fucked with him), and Ms. Rice.  Powell  scoring a big fat 10, and Rice getting a 5 or 6.

On a different note I was watching Bill O'Riely today (I like Bill, he's one of the few news-type people on TV with more then 1 brain cell) and Zell Miller was on.  Zell Miller is a scary scary scary man.  His accent made me want to crawl out of my skin.  Ewww.

Quote from: Lord Trout

Quote from: ScribeYou may want to watch it for  this (http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/21017/) alone.

I'd be surprised if that made it to the screen. Maybe on CBS (or the Internet), but I doubt any other network would broadcast those images.

Ah, I forgot about the wonderously free press of the US.  Over here, its common place to show the screwups of our leaders.  All though that is becoming less and less common place.  Like when they passed the Freedom of Information law, and the ministries started shredding papers en masses before it took effect. Anyway,  I hear Bush will be talking about freedom.  Let the contradictions roll....

I found some pictures of him rehearsing the speech: (click here (http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW12-03-03.gif) if the image doesn't appear)

(http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW12-03-03.gif)[/img][/url]

Quote from: AnonymousI know I'm probably wasting my breathe, but I'll say this anyway:

I challenge all of you who hate Bush so much and think he is the worst thing since Hitler to listen to his inaugural speech tomorrow.  I don't expect you to watch the whole inauguration so I'll help you out.  Him and Cheney will be sworn in around 12:00 EST, and his speech will follow their swearing in.  It is said to only run about 17 minutes, so not even that long.  It will be on TV, streamed live on the internet, and will be on the radio so, no matter what you're doing, or where you live, you should be able to catch.

Personally, I think libs are funny and obviously a misguided folk, but I caught all of their convention.  In fact, I never realized so much time and so many different speeches could be given talking about 4 months of one man's life spent on a boat, but they sure did it.  Kerry's speech was especially good stuff.  Anyway, the point is I am challenging you to surprise me and actually give Bush your ear for under 20 minutes of your day tomorrow and see what the guy has to say about where he intends to lead us in the next four years.  I doubt many of you will, but prove me wrong.  If there's one thing I can't stand, it's those who will only listen to their own point of view.

And that's that. :wink:

is that suposed to be a challenge? I lestened to his retarded ass during each of his "debates". 20 minutes isn't hard. and listening to his speech isn't going to change the fact that he's as dumb as a bag of hammers.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he mispronounces america, mispronounces 'a', and says the french don't have a word for hors d'oeuvres.

Zurtok, you had me until oyu said you liked Bill O'Reilly.  That guy plasy so fast & loose with the truth, he's got ane entire book (http://www.fair.org/ohreally.html) dedicated to correcting him.


But to answer VoT's "challenge", I don't have time to listen to him at work today, but I will read the transcript & make jokes about it at his expense.

And just to reiterate, calling it "his speech" is slightly disingenous, as he didn't write it.  It's like calling Kelly Clarkson a "songwriter".

Now that I am here and I am reading this I am all too glad that I did not try to type the lengthy post I almost did in response to the other debate taking place.  I simply believed that some of you may be remotely interested in seeing what the President for the next four years says he intends to try and accomplish.  Whether you like it or not, sometimes it's good to know what their agenda is.  That being said, the litany of Bush-bashing incoherent nonsense that followed my challenge has refreshed my memory as to the initial stereotypes I have of you guys.  While there are a few here and there who are obviously intelligent and make good points (whether or not I agree with them), the bulk of you simply used this as yet another opportunity to go into your diatribes of shit.

For that reason, I am not going to even waste my time responding in the other debate we were having.  Since Scribe was the only one with valid points and I am already discussing the issues in a much more civilized way with him elsewhere, I believe that that's where I will have my political discussions alone.  You guys are truly a piece of work.  On one hand, it is fun to come over here and throw little tidbits out there for people so on the other end of the spectrum to respond to, but on the other hand this little post and what followed show me that rational discussion is not possible with the bulk of you.  

Yes, all conservatives are brain-washed dittoheads who believe whatever Rush and the party leadership tell us and all of you are enlightened free-thinkers who are geniuses beyond compare. :roll:   Most of you are truly of waste of my breathe, and for that reason what was fun for a few moments has just become fucking dumb.  To those of you who are capable of having civilized discussions you probably know who you are and to the rest, fuck off.  So cheers and good day.

Quote from: Voice of TruthMost of you are truly of waste of my breathe...

Dude, easily solved... stop breathing.

your brain is just so sharp you could cut people with it

well done

Quote from: Voice of Truthwords

more words

yakety sax

words again

Most of you are truly of waste of my breathe, and for that reason what was fun for a few moments has just become fucking dumb.  To those of you who are capable of having civilized discussions you probably know who you are and to the rest, fuck off.  So cheers and good day.

Byeeee!  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

I find bush supporters funny. They talk about intelligent debate, but the second you bring up a valid point that they have no defense for they either play the god card or they just say that you are being stupid and whiney for talking about something that so many others have talked about. They never stop to realize that the reason others have brought it up so much is because it's a valid point and evidence that bush is incompotent.

Quote from: Voice of TruthI simply believed that some of you may be remotely interested in seeing what the President for the next four years says he intends to try and accomplish.

Hey, I'd love to know what Bush is gonna be up to in the next 4 years.

But why on earth do you think i'll learn that from the inauguration speech?  Or any speech he gives, for that matter?  That stuff is just PR.  It gives no real insight into his intentions.

Quote from: LMNO

Quote from: Voice of TruthI simply believed that some of you may be remotely interested in seeing what the President for the next four years says he intends to try and accomplish.

Hey, I'd love to know what Bush is gonna be up to in the next 4 years.

But why on earth do you think i'll learn that from the inauguration speech?  Or any speech he gives, for that matter?  That stuff is just PR.  It gives no real insight into his intentions.

Like I said, more ammo.  Not that it will help, given the Bush Administration's immunity to reality (something I would like to test further, oops, I may be on a list now, for being threatening).  But yes, we need to judge the Bush administration by his actions.  Then again, if he says he is going to invade several sovreign states and get tied down in guerrilla fighting, ruin the economy, pass more laws that fly in the face of the constitution, increase cronyism and commit more crimes agains the English language, then we can hardly argue that he didnt tell us.

Quote from: Voice of Truth...I am not going to even waste my time responding in the other debate we were having. ...rational discussion is not possible with the bulk of you.  ... Most of you are truly of waste of my breathe, and for that reason what was fun for a few moments has just become fucking dumb.  To those of you who are capable of having civilized discussions you probably know who you are and to the rest, fuck off.  So cheers and good day.

:cry:

Now I can't have any fun playing with the little conservative boy
down the street. Oh what, oh what will I do?

::sobs uncontrollably::

The little rich boy took his ball and went home. He doesn't want to
play with us homeless chillin anymore. I guess I should just go eat
worms.

Quote from: gnimbleyI guess I should just go eat
worms.

::tosses gnimbley a couple of macaroons, instead::




Think he'll be around when we actually do analize the speech?

And so VoT knows, the only reason I can be "sensible" about Bush is not having to live under his policies.  Im here in the UK, where we have a minor, half-hearted version, who can be kept in check by a more balanced Cabinet.  If I was in the US, and had to witness all the crap over there first hand, Id probably not want to hear any more from the moron again.  I cant blame them for being pissed off with Bush.

QuoteI kind of stopped worrying about it since Bush and the rest of the US Government don't exist in my reality

Hmmm....I should do that. Or at least move to Europe

Well, here's a first draft... Wonder if VOT will see it...

Quote from: the Shrub's speechwriter
3At this second gathering, our duties are defined not by the words I use, but by the history we have seen together. For a half-century, America defended our own freedom by standing watch on distant borders. After the shipwreck of communism came years of relative quiet, years of repose, years of sabbatical -- and then there came a day of fire.

4We have seen our vulnerability, and we have seen its deepest source. For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny -- prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder -- violence will gather, and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders and raise a mortal threat.

The above two paragraphs contradict each other: ,Äúsimmering regions of tranny,Äù are not ,Äúquiet,Äù, unless one was (is) willfully ignorant of world events (Not to mention the boiling over moments of Bosnia, Rawanda, for starters).  
And do we really have to discuss ,Äúideologies that feed hatred,Äù (quick!  How many people who attacked Musilms after 9-11 were Democrat?) and ,Äúexcuse murder,Äù (*cough governor of Texas cough death penalty cough*)?

Quote7America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one. From the day of our founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this Earth has rights, and dignity and matchless value because they bear the image of the maker of heaven and Earth.

Well, the day of our rebellion, actually.  But close, I guess, if you discount the Articles of Confederation.

Quote8Across the generations, we have proclaimed the imperative of self-government, because no one is fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave. Advancing these ideals is the mission that created our nation. It is the honorable achievement of our fathers. Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security and the calling of our time.

Well, self-government unless you do drugs, or are gay, etc,Ķ  Then you,Äôre unfit to make your own decisons, and the government will spank you.

Quote10This is not primarily the task of arms, though we will defend ourselves and our friends by force of arms when necessary. Freedom, by its nature, must be chosen and defended by citizens and sustained by the rule of law and the protection of minorities. And when the soul of a nation finally speaks, the institutions that arise may reflect customs and traditions very different from our own.

Wait,Äîwho was threatening us again? Couldn,Äôt have been Saddam, he didn,Äôt have any WMDs!

Quote11America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom and make their own way.

Providing, of course, they agree with us.  If not, can you say, ,ÄúAllende, Part Two,Äù?

Quote13My most solemn duty is to protect this nation and its people from further attacks and emerging threats. Some have unwisely chosen to test America's resolve and have found it firm.

Like the ACLU,Ķ

Quote20The rulers of outlaw regimes can know that we still believe as Abraham Lincoln did: "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves; and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."

And we will bomb you until you comply, because God told me to.

Quote22And all the allies of the United States can know: We honor your friendship, we rely on your counsel, and we depend on your help.

::spit take::  It,Äôs a little late to be appealing to the UN,Ķ

Quote27All Americans have witnessed this idealism and some for the first time. I ask our youngest citizens to believe the evidence of your eyes.

They have been, and they have been leading the protests.

Quote30To give every American a stake in the promise and future of our country, we will bring the highest standards to our schools and build an ownership society. We will widen the ownership of homes and businesses, retirement savings and health insurance -- preparing our people for the challenges of life in a free society.

High standards in school have nothing to do with this ,Äúownership society,,Äù and to conflate the two is misleading.  Further, since Bush is implying that de-regulation is the answer to this, it signifies a further abandonment of the laughable ,Äúno child left behind,Äù bit.

Quote32In America's ideal of freedom, the public interest depends on private character -- on integrity and tolerance toward others and the rule of conscience in our own lives. Self-government relies, in the end, on the governing of the self.

See Paragraph 8.

Quote33That edifice of character is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran and the varied faiths of our people. Americans move forward in every generation by reaffirming all that is good and true that came before -- ideals of justice and conduct that are the same yesterday, today and forever.

Another myopic statement, believing that morals are impossible without religion.  Also: see Duteronomy for examples of how ideals of Justice and Conduct change regularly.

Quote42When the Declaration of Independence was first read in public and the Liberty Bell was sounded in celebration, a witness said, "It rang as if it meant something." In our time it means something still.

I was unable to verify this,Äîcan anyone provide a link to support this claim?

Quote44Now bend over, America,ÄîMy cock is greased up, and I,Äôm ready to start screwing you for another four years!

That was Brilliant LMNO!!!

Let's not forget the nicknames our illustrious presidential hijacker
uses.  This is from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/14/senator.name.ap/

He has called Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia, "Pootie-Poot."

Pootie-Poot?


The should nix the inauguration  and send the money to the hurricane
victims relief.  Florida still hasn't received the funds promised.
I mean WTF he's already the dictator, why have an inauguration?

I don't hate Bush.................. I want to kill him.

::bows::

:twisted:

When I see him on t.v.
I want to chop his hands off.......

I dunno...........it's just a thought

Perhaps we'd all be better off with a gnome for president.

Humans seem to have a bad track record in politics, and it dosen't seem to me like the chimpanzee we're trying right now is faring any better.

I suppose if the gnome dosen't work out, we might just be better off voting for Cthulhu.

Just saying.

gnimbley, the looney anti-american gnome, gives his take on Bush's
speech. As if anybody cares.

It was sirring rhetoric. Wonderfully dramatic. Full of all the right
sentiments. Filled with all the words we were taught in civics class
to admire. Liberty. Freedom. Peace. Dignity.

What it lacks is specifics. It promises all the right things. It also
reads like a civics paper, or a newspaper editorial just before going to
war. We will be a beacon of freedom. I see a thousand points of light.

I don't see anything that can not be interpreted a million different ways.
Every American politician says this stuff. It's generic. Means whatever
you want it to mean. Designed so you hear what you want to hear.

Quote from: BushAmerica's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one.

This line jumps out at me. Isn't Bush's deepest belief Christianity? Is he
saying that the church and the state are one now?

Quote from: BushFrom the day of our founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights and dignity and matchless value because they bear the image of the maker of heaven and earth.

And is he saying here that we have some kind of divine imperative? That
it is God's will that we do what we do?

Quote from: BushSo it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.

Okay. So this is a specific. Sort of. But hasn't this been the stated "goal"
of every ideology and every movement since the dawn of time? The
Communists were going to free everyone from tyranny, too.

Quote from: BushThis is not primarily the task of arms, though we will defend ourselves and our friends by force of arms when necessary.

Of course, "when necessary" and who our "friends" are is subject to
vast re-interpretation at any time. South Asia is our ally and has always
been our ally.

Quote from: BushAmerica will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal, instead, is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way.

I think this is in serious dispute. What is the definition of unwilling?
Combine this statement with the next quote...

Quote from: BushWe will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation, the moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right.

...and we have a situation where we can define every "oppressed"
country as being full of people who are "willing" for us to liberate them.
Instead of this being a qualification upon our use of arms, a restriction
as it were, this is instead a blank check to go anywhere and do anything.
They are "always wrong" and we are "eternally right." You are either
with us or against us.

Quote from: BushAmerica will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains...

Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing for the next half hour.

Quote from: BushAll who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know the United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors.

Ah. All you "oppressed" who are "willing" for us to free you, we are
coming. Is this not what he is saying? We "will not ignore your oppression
or excuse your oppressors." And how do we do that? By wimpy
sanctions, or by war?

The speech from this point out becomes a war speech. Stirring up
the people in readiness for going to war. It sounds to me like he
really is planning to expand the war. Up to now I have joked
about it, but I didn't really believe they were going to do it.

Today I do.

Damn.

Quote from: BushMake the choice to serve in a cause larger than your wants, larger than yourself, and in your days you will add not just to the wealth of our country, but to its character.

This rhetoric reminds me of the stirring speeches from the Communists
and the Fascists. The State is more important than the individual. Yes,
Kennedy ask what can you do for your country. But he didn't ask you
to submerge your identity into the identity of the State.

Quote from: BushIn America's ideal of freedom, citizens find the dignity and security of economic independence instead of laboring on the edge of subsistence. This is the broader definition of liberty that motivated the Homestead Act, the Social Security Act and the GI Bill of Rights.

And now we shift gears to equate privitazation of part of Social Security
with freedom and the higher ideals of this country. God, you have to be
unAmerican to disagree with this guy. There is no room open for honest
disagreement and dissent.

Quote from: BushThat edifice of character is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our nation life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran, and the varied faiths of our people.

And once again the argument that religion is the foundation of the State.

Quote from: BushWe have known divisions, which must be healed to move forward in great purposes. And I will strive in good faith to heal them. Yet those divisions do not define America.

What is he saying when he says "those divisions do not define America?"
Does he mean that only one side is right?

Quote from: BushWe go forward with complete confidence in the eventual triumph of freedom, not because history runs on the wheels of inevitability; it is human choices that move events. Not because we consider ourselves a chosen nation; God moves and chooses as he wills."

A jab at the Marxists, and then a denial of our status as a "chosen
nation." I believe this is what is euphemistically referred to as
"plausible deniability." Bush didn't say he was divine. See! Look here.
Just because he is right and has God on his side doesn't have anything
to do with it.

Quote from: BushMay God bless you, and may he watch over the United States of America.

Because, as the old joke goes, nobody else is going to do it.

(BTW, gnomes make lousy presidents. Hell, I'd invade England if there
were cookies in it for me! Just saying.)

Heh.  My analysis was pwned (if that is the right 1337 term) by the gnomes.  Nice job, gnimbley.

What I liked was:

Quote from: gnimbley

Quote from: BushMake the choice to serve in a cause larger than your wants, larger than yourself, and in your days you will add not just to the wealth of our country, but to its character.

This rhetoric reminds me of the stirring speeches from the Communists
and the Fascists. The State is more important than the individual. Yes,
Kennedy ask what can you do for your country. But he didn't ask you
to submerge your identity into the identity of the State.

He sounds like he's pusing for the power of the state, for the people to be subservient to the state, but then he turns around & all but yells, "And now the State won't do shit for you when you get in trouble!"

Quote"Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"

Who said I was gone for good.  I prefer to think of this like Bush not going to the NAACP.  Why waste my time debating the issues with people who obviously don't have much respect for dissenting opinions and who, for the most part, simply use hateful trash to debate instead of valid points.  I mean, that one fucker said "I want to kill him".  Boy, that's nice.  I have better things to do than DEBATE politics with people who feel this way.  Again, there are a few of you who actually have some valid points, even if I don't agree, but they are few and far between.

And the joke about the gnome have a three cheeked ass for a face was good stuff.  And yes, I post from work.  I never said I was a goody two shoes, and to those of you who called me "rich boy", that was all too funny.  I drive a '93 Corsica and scrape to pay my bills so I can get educated and move up in life, but I'm far from there.  You guys don't even know what you are talking about.  And the best part is the next time I check this site there will two more pages of wonderfully nice insults lobbed at me because I happen to have a different outlook on life that you arrogant assholes.  For some people who think Bush is some kind of bigot and the Conservatives are only out for the rich, you guys sure are some really "accepting" people. :roll:   Cheerio!!

Who ever said that Discordians are tolerant and accepting people?
When was this said?

Here's some common misconceptions I'd like to adress concerning Bush and the Republicans.
1- I am getting sick and tired about hearing that Bush has a "mandate" giving by the people. 51% (plus or minus 3-4 % margin of error)of the population is not a fuckin mandate.
2-This is not a 'Christian country". The First Amendment of the Constitution forbids it. This is a country that has a large christian population.
3-This country was not founded on "Christian values" unless you consider stealing Native American Land,enslaving africans,genocide,treaty breaking, Jim Crow Laws,lynching,segregation of the races,exploitive capitalism,and culturecide to be Christian Values"(which is apparently the case).
4-The culture wars that the social repubicans are fighting includes the very freedoms that we erisians hold so dear.The xtian right would love nothing better then to turn this country into a christian theocracy with their leaders as the Christian Taliban.
5-Bush and the Rest of the republicans have absolutely nothing in common with most  of the country.The republican party is composed primarily of white anglo-saxon protestant males.
6-Minorities are only tolerated in the Republican Party if the know their place. Powell,Rice, and Thomas are considers to be nothing more then 'House niggers from the Moteesa tribe"( for those who don't speak black Moteesa comes from black butlers asking their masters if they want "More Tea,Sir) by a good portion of my people. I am a field nigga and proud of it.

Quotewe might just be better off voting for Cthulhu.

Yeeah! At last, an HONEST politician, Cthulhu is!

8)

QuoteWho ever said that Discordians are tolerant and accepting people?
When was this said?

 >:D  >:D  >:D

QuoteI drive a '93 Corsica and scrape to pay my bills

And MY car is a bus pass. So fucking what? You still support the screwing of the American people without lube...

Quote from: Voice of Truth"Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"

Who said I was gone for good.  I prefer to think of this like Bush not going to the NAACP.  Why waste my time debating the issues with people who obviously don't have much respect for dissenting opinions and who, for the most part, simply use hateful trash to debate instead of valid points.  I mean, that one fucker said "I want to kill him".  Boy, that's nice.  I have better things to do than DEBATE politics with people who feel this way.  Again, there are a few of you who actually have some valid points, even if I don't agree, but they are few and far between.

And the joke about the gnome have a three cheeked ass for a face was good stuff.  And yes, I post from work.  I never said I was a goody two shoes, and to those of you who called me "rich boy", that was all too funny.  I drive a '93 Corsica and scrape to pay my bills so I can get educated and move up in life, but I'm far from there.  You guys don't even know what you are talking about.  And the best part is the next time I check this site there will two more pages of wonderfully nice insults lobbed at me because I happen to have a different outlook on life that you arrogant assholes.  For some people who think Bush is some kind of bigot and the Conservatives are only out for the rich, you guys sure are some really "accepting" people. :roll:   Cheerio!!

Yeah, martyr up all you want to, if that helps you sleep.  You brought your shit here and now you're pissed that a bunch of people you've continually insulted and talked down to don't want anything to do with your Truth?  Quelle surprise.  Christ-onna-bun, more than half the people here don't even BELIEVE in Truth!  Give it up, Sisyphus.  If you really want to debate certain members of the forum and can't stand anyone else butting in, well, that's why we have private messages.  Otherwise, yes, don't let the screen-door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

"You brought your shit here and now you're pissed that a bunch of people you've continually insulted and talked down to don't want anything to do with your Truth?"

I continually insulted?  Man, that's rich. :roll:   Every time I make one post I get 25 responses about how "brain-washed" I am and the latest comments about me being a "rich boy", apparently because I think capitalism is a good thing.  That's the biggest load of bs.  You'll be scooping up that load of shit for years to come, Wishyouhadintelligence.

Quote from: Voice of Truth

I continually insulted?  
...
You'll be scooping up that load of shit for years to come, Wishyouhadintelligence.

And you say you're not a Discordian!?

Quote from: Voice of TruthIf there's one thing I can't stand, it's those who will only listen to their own point of view.

:roll:

Quote from: Voice of TruthFor some people who think Bush is some kind of bigot and the Conservatives are only out for the rich, you guys sure are some really "accepting" people. :roll:   Cheerio!!

AT WHAT POINT DID ANYONE HERE SAY THEY WERE "ACCEPTING PEOPLE"?

YUO = (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/moran.gif)

CHEF DIESEL,
IS LAUGHING AT YOU, BOY.

Quote from: Voice of Truth"You brought your shit here and now you're pissed that a bunch of people you've continually insulted and talked down to don't want anything to do with your Truth?"

I continually insulted?  Man, that's rich. :roll:   Every time I make one post I get 25 responses about how "brain-washed" I am and the latest comments about me being a "rich boy", apparently because I think capitalism is a good thing.  That's the biggest load of bs.  You'll be scooping up that load of shit for years to come, Wishyouhadintelligence.

DEAR CLETUS,

SHUT THE HELL UP, SON.  YOUR WHINING IS PATHETIC.

DAMN.

CHEF D,
THINKS YOUR PREPARATION SHOULD INCLUDE MORE THAN LISTENING TO LIMBAUGH, NEXT TIME.

"YOUR PREPARATION SHOULD INCLUDE MORE THAN LISTENING TO LIMBAUGH, NEXT TIME."


You know, I've only had that said about, ohhh, I don't know 80 times on this site in the few weeks I've been posting.  If you're going to try and insult me some originality would be nice, dumbass. :wink:

Quote from: Voice of Truth"YOUR PREPARATION SHOULD INCLUDE MORE THAN LISTENING TO LIMBAUGH, NEXT TIME."


You know, I've only had that said about, ohhh, I don't know 80 times on this site in the few weeks I've been posting.  

DOESN'T THAT TELL YOU SOMETHING, JETHRO?

WORK ON YOUR ACT.

CHEF,
THINKS YOUR TROLLINGS SKILLS ARE LACKING.

<throws in 2c>

 Bush's speech was a manifesto, albeit one that is full of vagueries and contradictions that were so admirably identified by LMNO,Gnimbley et al.

The problem with any & all manifestos is that they are essentially Utoptian in nature. I think we're all big enough and clever enough on this forum to appreciate that creating Utopia is extremely unlikely, if not, downright impossible.

Therefore, every politician either on purpose or by simple force of circumstances will always be unable to deliver everything they have 'promised'. If anyone can show me any society in which the political system successfully delivered all of it's promises, I will be very impressed, surprised and calling the nearest psychiatric unit to collect you asap. As the gnome pointed out, even the Soviets thought they were freeing people from the oppression of Tsarism (insert ironic, Homer Simpson headslap + doh combo)

 George Orwell was reprimanded by the British Communist party because, he suggested that on a Sunday afternoon, one's time was better spent in the local park having a picnic with the family, than standing on corners doling out political leaflets. Whatever ideology you buy into, whether it's Bush or other, you must accept that they promise Utopia and never deliver. All you can do is make calculated risks on how much you think they can pull off and vote accordingly..(or not, if that's the choice you wish to exercise).

 On the other hand, if you actually, really, truly, honestly, totally believe that in 4 years Bush will solve all the world's problems and make everyone so shiny & happy, then you will ever be pwned by your own naivity and are subject to the most intense, savage satire that the residents of PD can muster. I wish I had Chef's zen-like simpicity.

 So VoT - while I uphold your freedom & right to maintain beliefs that I do not care for personally, it is time to make a decision. Either you're going to take your grand exit or you're going to stay and post regularly. But make up your fucking mind, man. You cannot both posess and consume the proverbial cake.

The neo-con schtick is played. Statistical analysis will reveal that the largest % of PD members do not support your chosen political model. Sorry. We don't, you do. End of. Do not be surprised or offended that few people here, if any, support Bush. If you think we're all arrogant, narrowminded liberal asshats, fine. Just leave. You are not being held against your wishes.

 What is it you want from us exactly?


   Mangrove

"Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."  
 With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."

-Abraham Lincoln

And so stated the greatest President this nation has ever known.  Damn him and his "utopian" desires...

My friends, I come from a very different point of view than you.  Obviously we know that.  I did not immediately come to this site, but after having civilized debates with some of you in the other forum and after talking with Bella, who is very well spoken and intelligable, I believed that, perhaps, there were more of you who could be engaged in political discussion in a civilized way.  I was told by her and by some of you that I should never expect much of anything, but I pressed on.  In the past few days, however, it suddenly turned into anything but civilized and intelligent debate turned into a Bush-bashing extravaganza.  That is why I decided I'm done debating POLITICS with you guys.


"So VoT - while I uphold your freedom & right to maintain beliefs that I do not care for personally, it is time to make a decision. Either you're going to take your grand exit or you're going to stay and post regularly. But make up your fucking mind, man. You cannot both posess and consume the proverbial cake."

Then there is this kind of shit.  Is that right?  I'm glad you feel so comfortably telling me what I am going to do.  And who exactly are you??  I was also never offended.  I have previously stated that I am not offended easily and that is the truth.  Like I said, I'm simply not going to waste my time debating the issues with you guys when it's going to turn into to what it has.  It's a WASTE OF TIME.  I thought I made that pretty clear, but since you didn't get it, maybe the all caps will make it hit home.  That being said, I wasn't aware that I could only post here if I wanted to debate politics.  I read what you guys talk about and it is often just joking around and calling each other names and whatever else, yet you have these requirements that I must live by to be part of your forum? :roll:

Some of you really are some arrogant piss-ants and you know it.  That's fine.  I hold my beliefs strongly, but the reason I debate with people about them is specifically because I am open to other points of view.  It's the same reason I don't just get my news from the single sources often mentioned by some of you.  You know dick about me and you know dick about where I form my beliefs.  You guys spend all of your time calling me brain-washed when it is far too fucking apparent all but a few of you get your info from Michael Moore and his ilk.  Again, why do I have to abide your rules to stick around??

Quote from: Pope T.Mangrove xviiIf anyone can show me any society in which the political system successfully delivered all of it's promises, I will be very impressed, surprised and calling the nearest psychiatric unit to collect you asap. As the gnome pointed out, even the Soviets thought they were freeing people from the oppression of Tsarism (insert ironic, Homer Simpson headslap + doh combo)

One day, a politician will stand up and say 'During my term of office, I'll do my best to make things better for people, or at the very least, I'll try not to mess everything up too badly.' - and they'll force him or her out of office in hours.

Or: Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Quote from: Voice of Truth"it is far too fucking apparent all but a few of you get your info from Michael Moore and his ilk.

Thats funny, in over 2 months I havent seen a single reference to Michael Moore.  He's not the only one to criticize Bush you know. To name 2 high profile ones, Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky.  And I suppose the Guardian and Independent in the UK take their editorials from Moore?  What about the Times, who have been quite critical, in an oddly effective way for a Conservative paper owned by That Muppet (Ive disowned him as a fellow countryman, he is a prat).  I really do dislike this inference that only a lunatic fringe attack Bush and his policies.

Quote from: IAmNotAnonymous

One day, a politician will stand up and say 'During my term of office, I'll do my best to make things better for people, or at the very least, I'll try not to mess everything up too badly.'

He or she would get my vote.

VoT - nice Lincoln quote from the man who's avowed never to discuss politics in the PD forum  :wink:

Why don't you stop by The Open Bar? We have both alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks, good food. There's a new restaurant opening soon too....we've not entirely figured that part out yet. (can you cook??)

 We also have cutting edge Bavarian polka/techno on the jukebox and if you ask LMNO nicely he will shoot a few frames of porno pool with you.

 Go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on....you know you want to!

 OB

Quote from: Voice of Truth
blah blah a lot of bullshit blah some more...
Some of you really are some arrogant piss-ants and you know it.  
blah blah some more crapola blah blah blah

Dude, I'm tempted to be appalled at the supreme ignorance you show when it comes to knowing who you're dealing with.
I would be actually appalled, but I'm neither surprised nor particularly impressed.  You don't seem like the kind of person who would do something so elementary as to check out the ideals and the practices of the people he intends to start arguing with - although it hasn't escaped my attention that you are offended that we "don't know dick" about you.  The irony of your attitude is superlative.

You're dealing with a group of people who think that being called arrogant is a compliment - mostly because we know we have the wherewithal to back up that arrogance.  Also, the only people who get offended by arrogance are the people who have to suffer being embarrassed when their superiors put them back in their rightful place.
Your continued use of the term as an epithet clues us in as to which group you belong to, and many of us think that this is hilarious.
Secondly, Discordians have never claimed to be open minded and tolerant, that I've ever seen.  Jeez, most of us are the exact opposite.  Some of the things we're particularly intolerant of are:  stupidity, blind faith, willful ignorance, naivety, and political incompetence.

So you see, VoT, you really need to learn who you're talking to, and act accordingly, and then maybe your posts won't sound so uproariously ridiculous to most of us.  Then, maybe, you'll actually gain a little respect on this forum.  We will likely never respect, much less adopt, your beliefs.  But at least we'll stop making fun of you quite as much.

I won't...

fuck Bush, fuck anyone in his administration, and fuck anyone who voted for him or supports him, either implicitly or tacitly...

with any luck at all, the day will come when the streets run with the blood of the america-ruining fuckbag conservatives...and no, VoT, I'm not kidding...go ahead and post some more trite bullshit about how fucked-up my way of thinking is...you and yours will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...

8)

Quote from: Pope T.Mangrove xviiThe problem with any & all manifestos is that they are essentially Utoptian in nature. I think we're all big enough and clever enough on this forum to appreciate that creating Utopia is extremely unlikely, if not, downright impossible.

Utopias, in practice, seem to be mainly pathways to terrorism. Both
communism and fascism were held up as models of the future, pathways
on which mankind will be led to utopian paradise. Fundamental Islam
is another utopia, God's law manifest on earth, etc.

BTW, Lincoln was not a Utopian. He was a pragmatist. What [He Who
Shall Remain Nameless Since He Will No Longer Talk With The gnome]
quoted was political rhetoric Lincoln spoke. Really brilliant and
inspiring political rhetoric, granted, but rhetoric nonetheless. You
can find similar stuff from most every politician in history, going back to
those in the bible.  Doesn't prove anything, one way or the other.

(Trivia: How many slaves did Lincoln free when he signed the
Emancipation Proclamation?)

Quote from: Pope T.Mangrove xviiChef's zen-like simpicity.

Chef? Zen? Is that like a pasta dish or something?

Oh, here is a picture of olderdiscordians around noon today.

(http://www.cagle.com/news/Inauguration2005/Images4/cam.gif)

(BTW, I don't really insult people. I am more of a performance artist.)

Quote from: Voice of Truth
(http://img130.exs.cx/img130/9317/rc8twosloth3sc.jpg)
Hay guys!  ur all dumb lol!

I love how each succeeding post gets more shrill and makes less sense, VoT.  Thanks for giving us a rare look at conservatards self-destructing in the wild!

I think what VoT is missing is the fact that when you have a debate about someone in politics, you are either going to be bashing them or applauding them. The reason that most of us bash him is the simple fact that he has done some amazingly retarded and damanging things. In fact, I dare anyone to name one good thing he has done. The only thing I have ever heard people claim as good is that he has taken a strong stance against terrorism, but even there he failed as indicated by his continued dealings with the saudies. So, go on VoT or anyone else... prove me wrong and tell me one good thing he has done.

Cocaine.

Quote from: Voice of Truth
(http://img130.exs.cx/img130/9317/rc8twosloth3sc.jpg)
Hay guys!  ur all dumb lol!

I just posted that pic in my LJ the other day
nice

Quote from: Rev ThwackI dare anyone to name one good thing he has done. The only thing I have ever heard people claim as good is that he has taken a strong stance against terrorism, but even there he failed as indicated by his continued dealings with the saudies.

When Bush declared war on terrorism, he set us up for a war we can never win. How does one go about destroying something as intangible as "terrorism"? What is terrorism to us is God's will to someone else. This is a war that will never end. That is, until Bush had eliminated every living being on this planet except himself and his yes-men.

Just my 2c

Quote from: MalaulI just posted that pic in my LJ the other day
nice

It most certainly is!  Where'd you find that in the first place, anyway?

Uhmm you know Im not sure
lemme see if I can find it again

Quote from: Pompous little AntichristI wasn't aware that I could only post here if I wanted to debate politics

Well, that's funny, coming from someone who has managed to make all their conversations here so far about politics, even if they didn't start out that way. Threadjacker! Lie in your own mess and whine about the smell for all we care.

Hmm, agent, I seem to remember it being a point of distinction that
no discussion on this board stays on topic. For instance, this
discussion of Bush's speech now seems to be about a picture of a,
uh, baby harp seal?

Whatever.

I just watched Bush's speech. (I recorded it off CSpan.) And I have
a couple of additional comments.

First, it reads a hell of a lot better than Bush read it. His delivery was
flat. A real dud. He got mostly polite applause until almost the end.
It was a real snooze fest. So, so much for my comments about its stirring
nature and the gathering drums of war. Listening to it, even though I
knew what he was going to say, I found it pedestrian. A mere collection
of phrases. No coherent strategy or momentum. Certainly didn't get
anyone in a lather to go storming into Iran.

Second, Bush mentioned the Homestead Act of 1862 as an example of
America's definition of liberty. The Act gave head of every household a
160 acre plot of land. This included former slaves. However, it was
mostly Indian lands that Lincoln gave away. So it was liberty for us. And
theft from them. Unfortunate symbolism? Or an example of what they
think is true liberty?

Finally, CSpan had a shot when Bush was talking about freedom of a
young man and a young woman being led away by three police officers.
The young man raised his arm and held up two fingers in a peace sign.
One of the officers ran up to him and grabbed his arm, forcing it down. In
his speech Bush said, "Yet rights must be more than the grudging
concessions of dictators. They are secured by free dissent and the
participation of the governed." Unfortunate symbolism again? Or is free
dissent only acceptable when it is in protest of "dictators?"

That's all for this looney anti-American gnome. Good night.

Did you see me? Did you see me?

I did good, didn't I?

Yeah.















(http://www.cagle.com/news/Inauguration2005/images3/tab.jpg)

Quote from: the cooking lovin' gnomeHmm, agent, I seem to remember it being a point of distinction that
no discussion on this board stays on topic.

True, but I notice that VoT can't bear to have them drift off the topic of politics.

Anyway....

Quote from: Drunken FratboyDid you see me? Did you see me?

I did good, didn't I?

Yeah.

:roll: How are we going to tell him that his mom dropped him on his head  when he was little?

I can't speak for the others, but I'd just like to state for the record, VoT, that I am intolerant of your beliefs and I don't bother reading your arguments. However, I don't get all of my information from Michael Moore, because he's as much of a rich capitalist douchebag as Bill O'Reilly is, and Fahrenheit 9/11 wasn't hard enough on Bush, (yes, I'm serious) and was obviously created solely for the purpose of getting money from liberals.

Quote from: Voice of Truth

Quote"Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"

I mean, that one fucker said "I want to kill him".  Boy, that's nice.  I have better things to do than DEBATE politics with people who feel this way.  

I'm the fucker who said I want to kill bush.  

I'm so sorry.

I apologize.

I don't want to kill bush.

I want to torture and kill bush!  

:twisted:

::feeds Voice of Truth to Devil Squerrel::


"One of the interesting initiatives we've taken in Washington, D.C., is we've got these vampire-busting devices.
A vampire is a ,Äî a cell deal you can plug in the wall to charge your cell phone."
,ÄîGeorge W. Bush, Denver, Aug. 14, 2001


"But I also made it clear to (Vladimir Putin) that it's important to think beyond the old days
of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe."
,ÄîGeorge W. Bush, May 1, 2001

Quote from: Trojan Man!Cocaine.

Best thing said so far.  By anyone.  Want to share Trojan Man?  I hope you bought enough for everyone....?

::plops a pound of cocaine on the forum::
Getcher fresh coke!  I Robin Hooded it straight from the white house!  Weeeeeeehaw!

My analysis of Bush's speech.  I have a few questions also as I dont normally listen to US Presidential speeches much.

"After the shipwreck of communism came years of relative quiet, years of repose, years of sabbatical - and then there came a day of fire. "

Likening Islam to Communism in the threat it poses, perhaps on one level correct, fundamentally wrong in another.  Also, rather Bilical in its imagery.  Is that normal for a Bush speech?

"For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny - prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder - violence will gather, and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders, and raise a mortal threat.

There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom.

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: the survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. "

Basically, prepare to be invaded if you do not share the American conception of freedom,  You "will" be liberated even if you dont want it, as it were.

"America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one.

From the day of our founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the Maker of Heaven and Earth. "

Worrying, is he saying that America's vital interests are Christian, as America is an allegedly Christian country?  Also, Im not sure about that second paragraph.  I know the Constitution protects freedom of religion, but did it say that man was made in Gods image? I camt recall that, and it sounds like a near Bible quote again.

"Across the generations we have proclaimed the imperative of self-government, because no one is fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave.

Advancing these ideals is the mission that created our nation. It is the honourable achievement of our fathers.

Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time. "

Sounds like he is trying to find historical and ideological justification for further "regime change".  Also, he could theoretically claim it is then un-American and unpatriotic to oppose such actions in the future.

" This is not primarily the task of arms, though we will defend ourselves and our friends by force of arms when necessary.

Freedom, by its nature, must be chosen, and defended by citizens, and sustained by the rule of law and the protection of minorities. "

When is necessary?  Like Iraq was necessary?  Is he makin sense, saying it must be chosen, yet America is going to spread it?  How?  Meddling in intenal affairs of foreign states is an act of war.  Every first year International Relations student knows that.

"America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling.

Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way. "

Again, like in Iraq and Afghanistan?  Dont they have an esentially western based system of Government?  Ive heard nothing about the traditional, yet democratic Maljis al-shouras (religious councils, in which clerics each have a vote) being set up in either state.  yet they are part of the culture and history of both countries.  Or is it that they'll allow democratic institutions that are homegrown so long as they follow the western model?

"The great objective of ending tyranny is the concentrated work of generations.

The difficulty of the task is no excuse for avoiding it.

America's influence is not unlimited, but fortunately for the oppressed, America's influence is considerable, and we will use it confidently in freedom's cause. "

Prepare for the long haul, we've only just started?  And what influence are we talking here?  Diplomatic?  Military? Aid (withdrawl or promise of)?

"My most solemn duty is to protect this nation and its people against further attacks and emerging threats.

Some have unwisely chosen to test America's resolve, and have found it firm.

We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation: the moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right. "

Do not threaten us, you saw what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We say we stand for freedom, so we are right.  Anyone disagreeing is therefore automatically wrong.

"America will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains, or that women welcome humiliation and servitude, or that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies."

Unless they are a US citizen/Muslim and run foul of various anti-terror laws

"We will encourage reform in other governments by making clear that success in our relations will require the decent treatment of their own people."

What relations?  Clarify for fucks sake!  Miliraty, economic, what are we talking about here?

"Division among free nations is a primary goal of freedom's enemies."

You must stick with us.  Thats you, Europe.  You're terrorist loving scum otherwise.

"Make the choice to serve in a cause larger than your wants, larger than yourself - and in your days you will add not just to the wealth of our country, but to its character."

Your country is more important than you.  Kind of reads like sections of Corinthians in the Bible, saying to obey the state is a great good.

"This is the broader definition of liberty that motivated the Homestead Act, the Social Security Act, and the GI Bill of Rights."

Homestead Act?  Carving up Indian lands, if I remember my American West history module correctly.  Nice to see someone wants to keep the tradition of agressive expansion.

"Americans move forward in every generation by reaffirming all that is good and true that came before - ideals of justice and conduct that are the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Kind of looks like he is using past victories to justify modern ones.

" Liberty for all does not mean independence from one another."

We reserve the right to stick our nose in where it may not be wanted.

"From the viewpoint of centuries, the questions that come to us are narrowed and few. Did our generation advance the cause of freedom? And did our character bring credit to that cause?"

You're being judged.  Better act nice now, espescially given the choices are few.  Also inference of destiny that worries me alot.  People who talk about destiny, with such power, are inherently unstable.

"We felt the unity and fellowship of our nation when freedom came under attack, and our response came like a single hand over a single heart.

And we can feel that same unity and pride whenever America acts for good, and the victims of disaster are given hope, and the unjust encounter justice, and the captives are set free."

Denying our response to 9/11 is inviting new rifts in society.  Doing so is rocking the boat.

"Not because we consider ourselves a chosen nation; God moves and chooses as He wills."

Unless you dont believe in Him.  Could he get fatalistic, like Denethor in LOTR,if he starts losing a military encounter?

"History has an ebb and flow of justice, but history also has a visible direction, set by liberty and the Author of Liberty."

He's getting all "Destiny" like again.  Does he think he is the "Author of Liberty"?

"Renewed in our strength - tested, but not weary - we are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom."

Oh shit.  He sounds like he's got a Messiah complex, maybe thats normal American political hyperbole, but anyone tried this over here, the silenced pistols would already be handed out by now  When people start talking about "destiny of nations" and "direction of history" I get worried.  he also seems to think victory is inevitable, which isnt true.  He also seems to be overplaying the freedom card, everyone got it by the third paragraph.  What is he pre-emptively trying to justify?

Quote from: ShrubWe will encourage reform in other governments by making clear that success in our relations will require the decent treatment of their own people.

Caught this one later. I guess we are now going to start putting the
screws to Saudi Arabia, China, Pakistan and the rest, right?

VoT, you're so touchy!  But I do enjoy how you respond in such an indignant manner to the jibes & mockery, and yet, we would (sort of) quiet down if you just addressed the more salient points raised by gnimbley, Thwack, Scribe, & myself.  Hell, your initial post challenged us to listen to the speech.  We did, we posted our thoughts, and you simply ignored & dismissed them.

This opens you up to full-scale derision.  As they say, you started it.

Anyway,

Quote from: scribeI know the Constitution protects freedom of religion, but did it say that man was made in Gods image? I camt recall that, and it sounds like a near Bible quote again.

The second paragraph of The Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."  I do believe that this is what Shrub was referring to.  It is indeed a stretch to go from that to the "in his own image" reference of Genesis, and also note that The Constitution (technically the day the coutry was "founded") came 13 years after the Declaration, and after the Articles of Confederation, as well (and, they don't mention God, either).

The guy behind this site (http://www.thesmokehammer.com/) (Chris Morris) hasn't updated it recently, but the remix of the 2003 State Of The Union but I'm sure you'll enjoy it if you haven't seen it yet.

Quote"Mr. Speaker, members of Congress and fellow citizens. Every year, by law and by custom, we meet here to threaten the world. The American flag stands for corporate scandals, recession, stock market declines, blackmail, burning with hot irons, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, terror, mass murder, and rape. Our first goal is to show utter contempt for the environment."

Oh, one thing I forgot, VoT.  The only reference to Moore I could find (before you brought him up) was that That Communist Goat Turd Bastard wanted to kick the crap out of him.

Sounds to me like we're all behind Moore, doesn't it?



(oh, that was sarcasm, by the way)

Quote from: LMNOOh, one thing I forgot, VoT.  The only reference to Moore I could find (before you brought him up) was that That Communist Goat Turd Bastard wanted to kick the crap out of him.

Sounds to me like we're all behind Moore, doesn't it?



(oh, that was sarcasm, by the way)

GOAT is almost as bad as a pro wrestler at this point.  The worst one is

Bob Thurman Sparky Sparkplug Bob Hardcore Holly Plugg

And I think I missed a few.  My husband watches, I think, for the same reason he watches Hammer Films.  To see things you're not supposed to.  In wrestling it is punches that don't connect, in the Hammer Films it was the strings.  And funnily enough, you get a glimpse of nipple you're not supposed to see on both.

Nipples on strings?  Punching nipples?

I think your TV is malfunctioning...

Quote from: LMNONipples on strings?  Punching nipples?

I think your TV is malfunctioning...

Skulls on strings, punching faces.  

Nipplies slipping out of corsetts or skimpy outfits.

::waves anti-literal smacking stick menacingly::

<mangrove appears - pushing a dessert trolley upon which sits a large pitcher of beer, 2 glasses & JFK's humidor>.

This wasn't my idea, the Open Bar told me to do it. But here goes anyway...

 <pours glass of beer for self & one for VoT>. <removes cigars from humidor and places one next to VoT's glass>

 <trims own cigar with cheap taiwanese katana replica>...<lights>...<puffs thoughtfully>...

  Right, I think perhaps we should all take a nice drag on this exquisite tobacco and start over. Please allow me a moment or two to present my analysis of the situation.

   Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but judging by your posts and your responses, I have the impression that the circles in which you move do not often connect with any of the following: wrathful buddhas, zen lunatics, pagans, fairies, the confused, the ghey, magick users, fnordlings or even quantum bartenders. If that was so, then I feel that your adventures in Discordia would be a lot more rewarding for you.

   Before I continue, I would like to say that I believe that you are an intelligent, articulate, passionate individual which is cool. However, I do think that you managed to get yourself off on the wrong foot due to an error of judgement: You came to this forum in search of serious political debate.  

Given that PD is a cavalcade of surrealist whimsy, it's my feeling that you took on the impossible. Credit's where it due though, you did give it the old college try, but the forces of the fnord are mighty here. It just isn't very likely that any 'serious debate(tm)' will survive very long before off topic postings, extreme violence & disturbing pics emerge. That's just how things are here. Essentially, you picked possibly the very worst place in the world to debate any conservativism vs. liberalism topics.

 There is a very broad & diverse range of opinions here. I've found the people/zombies/commie bastards etc here to be very creative, intelligent, culturally literate & flexible. However, in spite of this cornucopia of weirdness, the demographic is overwhelmingly against Conservative politics. Again, that's just how things are. By the same token, Agent Compassion & I are weren't the least bit surprised to find that the keratinazis of the naturally curly hair forum didn't really want to play "Sink!" with us.

No offense intended here, but I think that you could've saved yourself a certain amount of pain had you done a little research into what goes on here. Perhaps read through more of the board? Have a nose through the Principia Discordia maybe? You've often emphasized a need for openmindness - so therefore you'd be happy to do so if you've not already.

Part of what drew down the corruscating torrent of abuse upon your head is that you've vaccilated between wanting the 'serious debate' then announcing that such an activity is a waste of time with us liberals. But like the man with the sore tooth, you will insist on prodding it with your tongue despite the discomfort that ensues. (Whenever I wear my Malcolm X t-shirt to Klan rallies, I get a similar problem...<shrugs>...)

When I said 'make up your fucking mind, man' - I was merely expressing my frustration. Which I'm allowed to do btw. Perhaps I could have worded it more eloquently. Something like "Instead of standing outside cursing the darkness, come inside and light a candle."

 I'm sure that this forum is big enough & malleable enough to accommodate you. You said, quite correctly, that we don't know you. Well, all that we've had to go on so far is what seems to be your agenda of 'debating your politics with liberals'. Come on dude, how are we supposed to get any sense of your personal depth off of that? Post something funny. Write a haiku. Drink at the bar. Make friends.   :shock:  

 Maybe people/zombies/trolls etc will be more open if you get to understand the pervading & disturbed psyche of this place. I'm certainly not trying to tell you what to do, but I am making a genuine attempt to convey useful survival hints. It's up to you whether you bother to take that on board. Cool if you do. If not, then it's "Smithers! Release the hounds!" because coming across as a cartoon stereotype conservative in PD is like waving fresh brains in front of the undead. You can't hate 'em for wanting a nibble.

 I'm sure it wasn't your intention to create an image of the crusading Republican taking on the heathen hoardes. But it is precisely that, that is causing the knee-jerk response.

 <tops up VoT's' glass>.

  I might be a total liberal asshat fucktard n00b, but I don't lie. The cigar-of-concilliation is genuine. There's a stool at the bar if you want it. Don't ever say I'm narrow minded, don't say I didn't make an effort and if you get uber-pwned for trying to get converts to Bush-ism don't act surprised or hurt and don't say you weren't warned.

 peace be unto you brother,

  imam al-mangrove

 <collects things, wheels trolley back to the bar>

::sniff::

Mangrove, that would have been beautifully touching...

::sniff, sniff::

If you had REMEMBERED TO SIGN IN FIRST!


::smacks Mangrove with a tuna fish::

::sits at VoT's stool and has a swig of his beer::


I'm all for peace offerings...
In fact, that one was delicious.

I fixed it for him

Aw, man... now I look like a dumbass...

Better delete my post.  


And this one too, i guess.

<gives both Mal & LMNO their envelopes>  Friday is pay day!!

You guys rock...<worrying management hug>

Lets all just sit back and take the cocaine which was offered a page back....

::opens paycheck envelope::


Hey!  2 tickets to see Secret Machines play tonight!  Awesome!

::bats fly out of her check::
HEY!!!
Im not THAT Goth!!

Just say 'no' kids.

That is all.










PS Did I do that right?  :?

The Reagan Era was about 16 years ago, OB.  But don't feel bad...

Yeah, that was about the same time as the Glam Rock era, wasn't it?

::winces::


Damn kids... No sense of History...

Heh.
Glam Rock outlasts 'em all.
You know how old I am, wincey?

I dunno.


Too Old to Rock & Roll, But Too Young To Die?

Quote from: LMNO::waves anti-literal smacking stick menacingly::

Hey, watch it with that thing.  You could poke an eye out.

I'm still young enough to Rock and Roll, but maybe a little too old to breakdance.

You get a cookie if you identify my reference...

Jethro Tull, baby!

Quote from: Rev. Chicken DeliciousJethro Tull, baby!

:( The chicken beat me to the cookie :(

::Gives cookie to Eldora::

Quote from: Rev. Chicken Delicious::Gives cookie to Eldora::

MMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............
Thanks Chicken Delight, you'll be on LMNO's shit list, now, though :wink:

I have a horrible secret...


I have no shit list.  None.  I'm so ashamed...



::sob::

Quote from: LMNOI have a horrible secret...


I have no shit list.  None.  I'm so ashamed...



::sob::

There, there...
::pats LMNO on the shoulder::
Believe it or not, neither do I.  I just tell people off sooner, rather than later, then I don't have so much stuff to carry around.

COOKIES FOR EVERYONE!!!!

Reagan's not in office???? When did this happen?? Why hasn't Mangrove got new magazines in the bar?? TIME MAGAZINE - JULY 1985???  :x

Q: How many Bush Administration officials does it take to screw in a light bulb?


A: None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; its conditions are improving every day. Any reports of its lack of incandescence are a delusional spin from the liberal media. That light bulb has served honorably, and anything you say undermines the lighting effect. Why do you hate freedom?

Quote from: Voice of Truththe litany of Bush-bashing incoherent nonsense that followed my challenge

Yet more proof of my point that you need to think about what you read.

QuoteWhy waste my time debating the issues with people who obviously don't have much respect for dissenting opinions and who, for the most part, simply use hateful trash to debate instead of valid points.

That's why I've decided not to debate you anymore. I mean, when you said gnimbley would've supported the Nazis, what little respect I had for you was gone (yes, I did have some. Naive of me, I know. Maybe I misunderstood some of VoT's posts that I thought were nice).

Quote from: Voice of TruthAnd the best part is the next time I check this site there will two more pages of wonderfully nice insults lobbed at me because I happen to have a different outlook on life that you arrogant assholes.

I love how you seem to think you're not doing the exact same thing.

"Some of the things we're particularly intolerant of are: stupidity, blind faith, willful ignorance, naivety, and political incompetence."

Yet another lovely assessment.  The stuff about coservative "blood in the streets" was equally nice.  I thought there'd only be maybe 2 pages, but I'm glad to see I was able to inspire far more out of you guys.  I feel like I'm dealing with little intolerant children.  

I actually did ask Bella to give me a brief crash course in what you guys are all about, which was interesting.  You see, I would like to just ask simple question and respect what you guys feel.  On the other hand, she did not tell me that you guys are also all about intolerance.  She acted like you question everything.  That's cool.  I can feel you guys on that.  I think my beef is that I have this picture, which you guys are instilling of me, of all you guys logging in and reading my posts and kicking back in your chairs with a big smile going, "Aaahhahah, you dumb bastard..." and then typing up a bunch of insults.  

As to the political debate, I still enjoy it a great deal, and I said I would continue it elsewhere with those who were so inclined, but on this forum there seems to be one or two decent responses and then the load of crap attacking me, thus the "waste of time" comment.  It's easier to debate with those who want to do it civilized.

I think if you want to know what my take on it is, it is that you guys could relax a little bit, and chill out, and accept that my beliefs (or those of conservatives) are ok too.  You may feel how you do about them, but shit, relax and talk.  Always with the slander.  I really didn't get that comment about me insulting you guys either.  I really have no problem with people believing whatever they want, but for real, I just don't entirely get what some of you guys' deal is.  This attitude of conservatives are full of"stupidity, blind faith, willful ignorance, naivety, and political incompetence" is just not my cup of tea.  

Anyway, this will be called "whining" and me being a "baby" when I was really just trying to talk with some people who seem to be very different than me and I'm just annoyed at what you guys had to turn it into.  Fucking "Conservative blood in the streets..."? :roll:   I'm sure even this post will likely get attacked again, and that's what I'm talking about.  Oh well... :wink:

But, really, VoT...  when a whole bunch of people are saying pretty much the same thing, doesn't that clue you in to actually listen to what they're saying?
Everyone who thinks you're unworthy of our efforts generally thinks so because:
You don't listen.  You don't pay attention.  Even when someone is bringing up good points, you don't bother to seriously address them, and you certainly don't bother trying to understand where they're coming from.
Your entire attitude seems to be "I can't believe you don't automatically agree with me!  You're so arrogant!  I'm not talking to you anymore!  Whaaah!"
You won't stop to question your own beliefs, but you expect us to do so, based on - what... your say-so, alone?

Not only that, though - some of us just really don't like you, you know.
Pfft.

Quote from: Sinner Bob the Mediocre

Quote from: Voice of TruthAnd the best part is the next time I check this site there will two more pages of wonderfully nice insults lobbed at me because I happen to have a different outlook on life that you arrogant assholes.

I love how you seem to think you're not doing the exact same thing.

I love how he thinks we are all reading his reeeeaaallly looooonnnggg posts all the way through every time.  If someone else says something interesting about one of his posts, then I go read it.  I mean, I try, but the guy is so full of himself.  I don't I could get through it even if I agreed with him.  He is worse than me, I swear.

Hey!  Really long posts can be good!
Some of us have a lot to say!

I read them all.  Everyone's long posts.  Give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves in any argument, because 90% of arguments ar no based on logic.  that goes for me too.  Sorry, had a logic exam today, it puts me in a funny mood.

Quote from: EraPassingHey!  Really long posts can be good!
Some of us have a lot to say!

A lot of the long posts here are great, but some are boring.  Yours are interesting, mine are interesting, Rog, Hugh, but VOT? not so much.

I don't expect, and in fact never thought any of you would, agree with or feel my point of view.  I simply meant that quite a few of you didn't even have an ounce of respect for another person's opinion.  Do you think I didn't know how different you guys felt than me on the issues.  I also did start to respond to some of the things people said, but as I started to the satirical posts started turning into outright attacks and so I said I was done.  Again, I'll keep debating the issues over at the Messiah with those who want to stay civilized.  All I am saying is that it sucks you guys have to be so anti-other points of view, or least you sure come off that way.  And again, I don't mean agreeing with me, but even listening to them and having halfway respectful response.  Everyone deserves a little respect IMO, even the three-cheeked assface.  (I still thought that was some funny ass shit...)

And my posts are ever long it's because I'm trying to respond to 50 posts.  Give me a break. :?

I also think there is a fine line between arrogance and strong convictions, but that's just me.  Even still, as I sit here and try to better explain what I'm saying I even feel like I'm digressing to stupid shit so anyway...

"Yours are interesting, mine are interesting, Rog, Hugh, but VOT? not so much."

What is with you people, damnit? (Banging head against wall...)

Quote from: Voice of TruthI also did start to respond to some of the things people said, but as I started to the satirical posts started turning into outright attacks and so I said I was done.

Some of the attacks may have been meant as satire. But your responces to them prompted real attacks.

You guys attack quite well for being so anti-war.  Maybe you should reconsider your stance?  It reminds me of the killer bees swarm mentality.  Attack, attack, attack... :twisted:

Quote from: Voice of TruthYou guys attack quite well for being so anti-war.  Maybe you should reconsider your stance?  It reminds me of the killer bees swarm mentality.  Attack, attack, attack... :twisted:

Usually when something/someone is so careless as to disturb the hive.
:wink:

(logins are for pussies.)

[cheap shot?]
In our defense, at least when we attack, all the participants are still
alive at the end of the battle.
[/cheap shot?]

(here kitty, kitty, kitty)

Quote from: Voice of TruthYou guys attack quite well for being so anti-war.  Maybe you should reconsider your stance?  It reminds me of the killer bees swarm mentality.  Attack, attack, attack... :twisted:

You know... I say something someone doesn't like over here I get maybe 4-5 people that respond to me.

Well hell, maybe I should feel special that I can piss off so many people.  I've got mad skills.  Woohoo!! :D

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell hell, maybe I should feel special that I can piss off so many people.  I've got mad skills.  Woohoo!! :D

you go man...


don't listen to thses guys.

If they didn;t like it they'ed start ignoring you like they do to Aini.

Quote from: Voice of TruthYou guys attack quite well for being so anti-war.  Maybe you should reconsider your stance?  It reminds me of the killer bees swarm mentality.  Attack, attack, attack... :twisted:

SOUNDS LIKE NEOCONS COMPLAINING BOUT THE LACK OF AMERICAN-FLAG WAVING IRAQIS, OPIE!

"I JUST SHOVED MY ARM INTO A HORNET'S NEST!  WHY DON'T THEY LOVE ME?"
\
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/joshua.gif)

CHEF D,
HAS BEEN LAUGHING NON-STOP SINCE APRIL OF 2003.

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell hell, maybe I should feel special that I can piss off so many people.  I've got mad skills.  Woohoo!! :D

Yup, so far I'd say that you're giving horab a run for his money. He's the only other new poster to receive as warm as welcome from the swarm as you have. I'd have to say, horab's still a bit ahead of you, though.

I stepped on a ground wasps nest once while out picking mushrooms and that was quite an experience.
At least these are internet stingers and you won't have to pick them out of your hide with tweezers like I did.
That was horrible....I need some tequila to drown the memory. :wink:

Quote from: Chef

Quote from: Voice of TruthYou guys attack quite well for being so anti-war.  Maybe you should reconsider your stance?  It reminds me of the killer bees swarm mentality.  Attack, attack, attack... :twisted:

SOUNDS LIKE NEOCONS COMPLAINING BOUT THE LACK OF AMERICAN-FLAG WAVING IRAQIS, OPIE!

"I JUST SHOVED MY ARM INTO A HORNET'S NEST!  WHY DON'T THEY LOVE ME?"
CHEF D,
HAS BEEN LAUGHING NON-STOP SINCE APRIL OF 2003.

/sleeping
huh...what?...Oh, I really tried to read the post, I even tried to get angry, but I fell asleep, now I have the QWERTY disease.  Thanks for waking me up with your shouting, CHEF.  We are anti war?  When did that happen?  I'm against THIS war.  I was against Vietnam.  Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually saved lives.  If we had had to invade, many more people would have died on each side.  Liberating Auschwitz?  For it.  Kicking the Brits out of the States in the late 1700's, great idea.  

And I think most of us here have the

Fuck me?!? No,

FUCK YOU

attitude.  Suprised you hadn't figured that out yet.

Quote from: eldora_avalon

Quote from: Chef

Quote from: Voice of TruthYou guys attack quite well for being so anti-war.  Maybe you should reconsider your stance?  It reminds me of the killer bees swarm mentality.  Attack, attack, attack... :twisted:

SOUNDS LIKE NEOCONS COMPLAINING BOUT THE LACK OF AMERICAN-FLAG WAVING IRAQIS, OPIE!

"I JUST SHOVED MY ARM INTO A HORNET'S NEST!  WHY DON'T THEY LOVE ME?"
CHEF D,
HAS BEEN LAUGHING NON-STOP SINCE APRIL OF 2003.

/sleeping
huh...what?...Oh, I really tried to read the post, I even tried to get angry, but I fell asleep, now I have the QWERTY disease.  Thanks for waking me up with your shouting, CHEF.  We are anti war?  When did that happen?  I'm against THIS war.  I was against Vietnam.  Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually saved lives.  If we had had to invade, many more people would have died on each side.  Liberating Auschwitz?  For it.  Kicking the Brits out of the States in the late 1700's, great idea.  

And I think most of us here have the

Fuck me?!? No,

FUCK YOU

attitude.  Suprised you hadn't figured that out yet.

DON'T BE HATIN'!
\
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/hammertime.gif)

CHEF DIESEL,
THINKS YOU NEED TO WORK ON DEM READIN' SKILZ.

I still have the "Fuck women" attitude.  There's something about a nice hips, chest, and ass I really like.  :twisted:  What can I say?  To each their own. :wink:

Quote from: Voice of TruthI still have the "Fuck women" attitude.  There's something about a nice hips, chest, and ass I really like.  :twisted:  What can I say?  To each their own. :wink:

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/lol.gif)

NEOCONS DON'T GET LAID BEFORE MARRIAGE, SON.

NOT OFTEN AFTERWARD, EITHER.

YUO = (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/sockfuker.gif)

CHEF D,
KNOWS AN OPIE WHEN HE SEES ONE.

Quote from: Chef

CHEF DIESEL,
THINKS YOU NEED TO WORK ON DEM READIN' SKILZ.

You talking to me? Mutha fucka?

What be wrong wf my readin skilz, sucka!

Ahh, how you little you know, my friend.  Neocons are not neoChristians.  I can promise you this conservative was getting some far before marriage.  On the other hand, I don't really think it matters what political affiliation you are after marriage; it seems all men are cut off.  Those dirty women... :?

Quote from: Voice of TruthAhh, how you little you know, my friend.  Neocons are not neoChristians.  I can promise you this conservative was getting some far before marriage.

YOU MAKE BABY JESUS CRY WHEN YOU LIE LIKE THAT, SON.

CHEF D,
WONDERS WHY YOU HATE AMERICA.

Quote from: eldora_avalon

Quote from: Chef

CHEF DIESEL,
THINKS YOU NEED TO WORK ON DEM READIN' SKILZ.

You talking to me? Mutha fucka?

What be wrong wf my readin skilz, sucka!

IT'S PAINFUL WATCHING OPIEZ TRY TO "TALK BLACK".

CHEF DIESEL,
HAS WHITENESS OOZING OUT OF HIS MONITOR.

Quote from: eldora_avalonDropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually saved lives.

The problem with that is that though it saved lives, it did, in a way, lead to the Cold War and so on, which led to the Vietnam War, and this War and many other minor wars in between. So nuclear/atom bombs are gay.

Now, I am not anti-war, I am pro-war.

I am against drafting and all that other bullshit, I am also against bullying.

I am also against having to fight for your country, you should be able to choose what side you want to be on.

That is why espionage is so cool.

Conservatism is stupid because it is large-scale constipation, and I like to take a shit when I can.

Quote from: pederoespionage is so cool.

Thats all you need to say man.  Espionage is the coolest stuff ever.  Except possibly sabotage.  Unless you get caught.

Complaining that humans go to war is like complaining that the ocean is wet.

My friend once complained that a chocolate bar he bought had got wet.  That he had it in his pocket while swimming in the Amazon river did not occur to him.  Perhaps this could cleverly be applied to the problem of war, but not by me.

Quote from: Chef

Quote from: eldora_avalon

Quote from: Chef

CHEF DIESEL,
THINKS YOU NEED TO WORK ON DEM READIN' SKILZ.

You talking to me? Mutha fucka?

What be wrong wf my readin skilz, sucka!

IT'S PAINFUL WATCHING OPIEZ TRY TO "TALK BLACK".

CHEF DIESEL,
HAS WHITENESS OOZING OUT OF HIS MONITOR.

Was ist los meine leibchen?  Ich kann nicht Schwarze gesprechen?  Ich bin weiss, bist du schwarzer? Du bist ein dummkopk und ein sheisskopf :P   Aber ein leibchen und Ich vershtehe dich, Ja? :wink:

(http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/050121/huffaker.gif)

I hate to come this late to a party. The good booze is always gone, and I have to admit that I skipped over most of it.

Nevertheless, here's why I had a problem with your OP VoT. It's not because of your "political beliefs", it's because of the unspoken assumption that you are going to agree 100% with G.W. before he even opens his mouth to speak, and you also assume that we're so far in denial that we won't or can't listen with an open mind. You felt the need to defend him before he even spoke, in other words. Pretty presumptuous. Myself, I wouldn't state ahead of time that I agree with something someone's going to say ever, and I sure as hell wouldn't put myself in a position to defend it before I know what "it" is going to be. Not even if that person is Jesus H. Christ. For all you know he could have started reading verbatim from Mein Kampf. (insert joke here)

Quoterelax a little bit, and chill out, and accept that my beliefs (or those of conservatives) are ok too.

Sure they are. But no solid political stance is going to be 100% conservative or liberal. If you're swallowing a party line and mimicking it back as your own personal truth you're just being lazy, and chances are you won't be able to back it up if asked. You're coming from a position of weakness because you feel the need to pick a side and stick with it rather than weigh things one by one. Most people would call me a liberal (rabid), but there are some things I'm very conservative about. Dividing people into these narrow definitions only helps to draw attention to differences that are never as big as we percieve them to be, unless we listen to the talking heads.

I understand your POV because I choose to inform myself by taking into account many political beliefs. I listen to mainstream and left-leaning news as well as conservative talk and news (which is where I'm guessing you get your Moore examples from. He's the newest, shiniest strawman since the blow job) and I try to get all points of view and aspects of a particular issue or subject before I make up my mind.

If you had posted here after the fact with specific aspects of the speech you felt were notable and wanted to defend I might want to play. As it is your lost most of your credibility and got attacked by the hive.

That said, welcome. I hope you stick around.

P.S. Next time bring chocolate. Libs looove chocolate.

Found a BBC article with Arab views on Bush's speech

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4197517.stm

Somewhere in all that verbiage, VOT said something to the effect of:

QuoteI thought you guys were supposed to have open minds or something.

Well, VoT, believe it or not, we do.  Most of us here have read the NeoCon viewpoint, studied it, considered it, analyzed it, and subsequently rejected it. Just because we have open minds doesn't mean we can't make judgements about it.

Hell, most of us would agree that there is a chance that a meteor will smash into the earth next Tuesday (after lunch, if you want to get RAW with it).  However, after a little bit of thought, we tend to reject that outcome.

So, VoT, if you want us to re-consider the NeoCon view, why not give us some sort of information, data, or argument that you are willing to fight to the death over?  Cuz we have heard most of 'em, thought about  'em and have dismissed 'em.  Simply challenging us to listen to W's speech is kinda weak.  Not answering our commentary on it is just rude.

PS - What did you think about the speech, and why?

an open mind is for the weak of spirit mind and soul.

i'm quite empty minded, as it is the empty mind that is the wellspring from which creation springs.

or soem crap. now wtf did i put my pipe. and wtf am i up at 8am on my weekend?

Dude, it's Monday....

dude, it's my weekend!

what kind of discordian are yall, that have weekends on the weekend?

::smacks horab in the teeth with corporate America::

All of corporate America?  Thats harsh dude.  I mean, Im on a 14 day weekend, that would mean I get the entire capitalist system in the teeth.  And no-one is that strong.

j00 wi11 ph34r my monday/tuesday weekend!!!!!!!

Of course, that means when the rest of his friends have the day off, horab has to work...



But that shouldn't pose a problem, as horab obviously must not have any friends...

I'm on day 35 of my weekend now. Still not sure how long this one is going to last for, but I'm enjoying it so far.

I LOVE the weekday weekend. You don't have to beat the shopping rush on Saturday, the movie rush on friday night, the overcrowdedness of covienence store bathrooms... You can go to the DMV or the Governor's Office or the Swedish Fish factory tour. You want to go sledding? No kids in the park so you don't have to knock them all down!

The world is quiet and your oyster when you wake up to a Monday morning weekend. *


* Statement void in Utah where they have family home evenings on Monday and don't actually, you know, stay at home.

Quote from: Water-Soluble Goldfish
* Statement void in Utah where they have family home evenings on Monday and don't actually, you know, stay at home.

Say what?  Is this some Mormon thing again?

Quote from: LMNOOf course, that means when the rest of his friends have the day off, horab has to work...



But that shouldn't pose a problem, as horab obviously must not have any friends...

it's sad but true. cept for those people, and that guy and that chick a dn those other people and...

the mormons have declared monday alien sex day, when you must sweet alien love to teh alien high lord of the planet neptune, who is not an ordinary man wearing a rubber mask.

Quote from: horab fibslagerthe mormons have declared monday alien sex day, when you must sweet alien love to teh alien high lord of the planet neptune, who is not an ordinary man wearing a rubber mask.

Who's going to notice the rubber mask when there's the Magic Sheet of Joseph Smith between them?

Family home evening is when you're all supposed to stay home and play board games and have cocoa and put on plays for each other, except that almost everybody goes out to a movie or to eat now instead. Monday evenings are busy in Utah.

And who needs the magic sheet when you have garments (http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon044.htm) to get through?

"Nevertheless, here's why I had a problem with your OP VoT. It's not because of your "political beliefs", it's because of the unspoken assumption that you are going to agree 100% with G.W. before he even opens his mouth to speak, and you also assume that we're so far in denial that we won't or can't listen with an open mind. You felt the need to defend him before he even spoke, in other words. Pretty presumptuous. Myself, I wouldn't state ahead of time that I agree with something someone's going to say ever, and I sure as hell wouldn't put myself in a position to defend it before I know what "it" is going to be. Not even if that person is Jesus H. Christ. For all you know he could have started reading verbatim from Mein Kampf. (insert joke here)"

This is just it.  I DON'T agree with everything Bush has done.  Again, as I had said, it became obvious that civilized debate was not working here so I do it with some of the Discordians elsewhere.  I simply chose not to do it HERE.  That being said, I feel Bush is spending at levels that many Democrats have never attempted and I don't like it.  I believe gay marriage is a states' rights issue and DON'T support a federal amendment.  I also DON'T support giving workers' permits to immigrants here illegally, as Bush does.  The fact is the NeoCon label is ignorant and stupid.  Other than that, I AM a conservative, not because I choose to follow the party line, but because 95% of the time when an issue comes up I draw my own conclusions and the Republicans either are on my side of the issue or are far close to it than the Dems/libs.  I have no problem being a member of the conservative "team" or whatever.  That DOES NOT mean that every single thing they say I agree with, but I'm rational enough to figure out which party my beliefs are closest too.  I'm not big on social programs, I like a strong military, I am for free markets/capitalism, I believe that America IS the reason that nations around the world are increasingly becoming free societies and that it IS our job to promote it (even though this is more Truman doctrine than a Republican thing, persay).  I believe we need to both protect the environment and be sensible to business in the process.  I believe less tax, for ALL people is good.  I believe decriminalization of most drugs is the right thing to do because the war on drugs is going no where.  I believe the war on poverty is just as big of a joke.  I believe that yes, Reagan was the catalyst for the end of the Cold war.

Just for the record, guys, I'm sure you'll have things to say about this list, but I'm not going to start debating these issues.  I will continue to do that over at the Messiah Forum.  I'm just trying to explain why I don't tow the party line on every last issue, but I am for all intensive purposes a conservative and far to the right.  I don't think calling myself one means I blindly follow my party.  It means I've analyzed the issues and that's where I fall.  I'm also an accounting/management major.  It's hard to be a business major and then support liberal business policies for me.  Anyway, that crap about me "defending him" before he ever spoke was inaccurate.  I was simply encouraging people to watch the speech.  That's all.  No big deal.

I do get a little tired of the people that talk shit about America all the time and how it's so awful here, but oh well.  That's what freedom of speech is all about.  I just think it's funny that this is still the country most foreigners want to come to, but that's another debate.  For real, if you think you know me so well head on over to the other forum and we can debate the issues all day long, my friend.

As to the attacks, I got what I deserved for posting conservative thoughts on this bastion of opposing thought.  I've learned my lesson.  From now on I'll stick to pictures of dudes with mullets and references to penis size. :wink:

Fair enough. I'm sure we agree on more issues than you think.

I haven't read any of your other posts on the boards. I came blind into this thread and saw someone associating themselves with GW's speech before the thing ever happened and presuming that us "libs and dems" wouldn't care to take the time to see or hear such a thing ourselves. He's a wartime president stating the things he's looking to accomplish in the next 4 years. What made you think those interested in politics wouldn't want to hear that, unless you were suffering from some sort of "us or them" mentality about discordians?

QuoteAnyway, the point is I am challenging you to surprise me and actually give Bush your ear for under 20 minutes of your day tomorrow and see what the guy has to say about where he intends to lead us in the next four years. I doubt many of you will, but prove me wrong. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's those who will only listen to their own point of view.

Well, many of us did, and many of us don't need you to remind us to brush our teeth either.  :P  

QuoteAgain, as I had said, it became obvious that civilized debate was not working here so I do it with some of the Discordians elsewhere. I simply chose not to do it HERE.

And I saw your post here, not there. Hence my post.

QuoteI do get a little tired of the people that talk shit about America all the time

Maybe they're not all talking shit about "America". Maybe some of them are questioning policies they believe are unfair and have a good reason to do so. Maybe they're patriots who don't equate government with country. Maybe they're foreigners who of course would want to live here (why wouldn't they? Our way is the only way worth living after all.) Maybe they're messing with people such as yourself.

QuoteAs to the attacks, I got what I deserved for posting conservative thoughts on this bastion of opposing thought.

I'm glad you think for yourself. Have a cookie.

i'm horab fibslager and i'm here to talk shit about america. america is a no good nazi pigfucking purplehead illegitmate stepchild who's obviously been hit not only by an ugly stick but a mack truck as well. thank you and goodnight.

::eats horab's brain::

::gets extremely high::

:mrgreen:

Quote from: horab fibslageri'm horab fibslager and i'm here to talk shit about america. america is a no good nazi pigfucking purplehead illegitmate stepchild who's obviously been hit not only by an ugly stick but a mack truck as well. thank you and goodnight.

Oh God, I agree.

I hope you're not being sarcastic.

Thanks guys.  I was counting on that. :wink:   I also thought if you ate brains you were a zombie.  So does that mean that zombies get high when they get a hold of some good brains.  If you aren't already a zombie and you eat the brains, do you then become a zombie, or better yet a zombie that is high?  I just need some clarification going forward on this one... :?:

No, you don't have to be a zombie to eat brains.
I chomp on Rog's head all the time, and not one zombie bone in my body.
To be fair, though, Rog's head is incredibly yummy.

::Steals Rog's head from Era::

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNnnnnnnumy!

QuoteI also thought if you ate brains you were a zombie. So does that mean that zombies get high when they get a hold of some good brains. If you aren't already a zombie and you eat the brains, do you then become a zombie, or better yet a zombie that is high? I just need some clarification going forward on this one... Question

I'm definitely not a zombie. I was just wondering what would happen if I ate Horab's brain. I'm still coming down.

:twisted:

If that was true, Hannibal Lector would be a zombie.

Quote from: Ythactha::Steals Rog's head from Era::

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNnnnnnnumy!

*kills Ythactha leisurely, with much splashing of blood and vitals*

Quote from: Water-Soluble Goldfish
Maybe they're not all talking shit about "America". Maybe some of them are questioning policies they believe are unfair and have a good reason to do so. Maybe they're patriots who don't equate government with country. Maybe they're foreigners who of course would want to live here (why wouldn't they? Our way is the only way worth living after all.) Maybe they're messing with people such as yourself.

Good point, Hosh-- uh, Goldie.  This is a pitfall many people get sucked into.  The Government is not static, and is (nominally, at least) subject to change by the people.  When many people trash the US, they are trashing policies imposed by the government, not the country.  The implication of "This country is great, I don't see why you radicals talk shit about America" is that once the current administration (whoever it might be) does something, it should immediately be accepted, not questioned, and not protested.  If the US were a fascist and/or totalitarian state (insert cynical joke), then yeah, there would be no reason to complain, because other than violent revolution or creeping education, nothing could be changed. But in a Democracy (or a Republic), such change can be effected.

Simply put, "I hate America" seems to be shorthand for "many of the the current policies and laws enforced by this administration run counter to my idea of how a country should be run."  It's a pretty good country, underneath the thick layer of bullshit modern politics spreads around.  I just can't stand the smell.

Can i have some freedom fries with that?

Only if you spend 20 minutes Freedom kissing me.

Do you have Freedom Wine in America too?

Why yes!  It comes in it's own box, as well!

(http://img196.exs.cx/img196/2061/boxwine4gc.jpg)


We sell no wine that isn't absolute crap.

Come now, LMNO.  There's no need to insult the wine like that.  Drunk Jesus loves all his booze-children equally, even the cheap ones that are only good for sucking down really fast until you can't taste them anymore.  

It really does make me sad when people say bad things about alcohol.  I wonder if this is a sign of something?

Now hold on there.  Much like barnyard animals, some alcohol is more equal than others.


Right, Snowball?

Does America do any wine? I never knew.  And is is better than the beer? :wink:

Actually, some of the vinyards in California are actually pretty good.  As good as many spanish wines, and some French & italian wines.  And believe it or not, I've found some east coast wines that actually can pull off some interesting whites.

If you're really interested, I can post some links.

Why not?  There is a rather good winestore in town, they may have a few.  Go on then.

Well, Bonny Doon (http://www.bonnydoonvineyard.com/) is my current favorite, and they have some very good wines.

I used to be big into Ravenswood (http://www.ravenswood-wine.com/rwd/index.jsp), but they have gone slightly commercial recently, although I still love their logo ad motto.  So I'm a sucker for packaging.  Shoot me.

Ridge (http://www.ridgewine.com/wines/wines.tml) is usually over my head, price-wise, but when I can afford it, I get it.

For the east coast, it's pretty small, but Westport Rivers (http://www.westportrivers.com/wine.htm) has a surprisingly good sparkling wine, and an excellent Pinot Blanc.



LMNO
-Amatuer Wine Snob

Thanks, I'll be sure to see if they have any of them in stock.

Gets in a time machine and goes back to before Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:38
am and says "I agree with everything Hoshiko is going to say in her post
of Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:38 am before I even know what she is going to
say." Bows.

Quote from: Voice of TruthThanks guys.  I was counting on that. :wink:   I also thought if you ate brains you were a zombie.  So does that mean that zombies get high when they get a hold of some good brains.  If you aren't already a zombie and you eat the brains, do you then become a zombie, or better yet a zombie that is high?  I just need some clarification going forward on this one... :?:

She got high because the brains were full of drugs.

Quote from: LMNOWhy yes!  It comes in it's own box, as well!

(http://img196.exs.cx/img196/2061/boxwine4gc.jpg)


We sell no wine that isn't absolute crap.

My step mother drinks wine out of a box. hehehehehe

At family functions she might go through a whole box.  Rubbed her tits on my husband once.  Felt the need to remind my brother that my husband has sex with me.  Oh, why don't I spend more time over there....

Quote from: LMNONow hold on there.  Much like barnyard animals, some alcohol is more equal than others.


Right, Snowball?

:shock:  :?  :o  :roll:  :wink:

I can't drink box-wine because it tastes like cardboard, because I'm a fag that way.

And I don't know how much can be changed about this "Republic". I mean the last two presidential victories were pretty obviously the result of election fraud. Ah crap, I just opened up another can of worms.

Ok, it gets reaaaaly semantic here.  I look at "voter fraud" the same way as I look at "global warming".


I do thing global warming through human industry exists, and I do think it will become a problem if it is not corrected.  However, I don't think it's anywhere near as serious as some environmentalists claim.

I do think there was some voter irregularities that were ignored, and maybe there was a Republican or two that tried to make things more irregular, but i think a deliberate conspiracy of voter fraud would be extremely hard to prove.

eL, I'm still Hoshi. Do not adjust your television sets, this is just a phase. It is only a phase.

Gnome, I knew you would agree with me. That's why I said it ;)

Fonzarell, voter fraud should've never happened, particularly in the first W win. But there's no denying the fact that half of the US wanted him for President in the first place. What was being contested was a miniscule portion of voters. Also, I tend to think that voter fraud happens in both camps, not just the pubs. Politics is sleazy. Either way, the lesson from that was not that republicans are evil but that we need to re-evaluate the electoral system on a smaller scale. Locally, is the system set up in such a way as to be fair to both parties?

What really scares me is the trend of electronic voting without a paper trail. Back that shit up, yo.

I like really cheap red wine.  Not Ripple or anything, but like, Livingston or something.  The expensive stuff is good, but hard on the pocket book.  Plus it can be a little dry sometimes.  But I do like an occassional wine buzz.  It's by far, the most functionally effective alcohol I mess with.  Even the bourbon can't hold a candle to a good sized bottle of wine.

I also feel what you guys are saying about the gov't in reference to what you don't like about America, but there are plenty of people out there including some of you (I think) who have said were this empirical power forcing our "way of gov't" on people.  I'm sorry, but if forcing democracy on people is what they mean, I don't get it.  In a democracy people elect who they want so they get what "they" want.  That is basically as close as we can get to giving people what they want, short of anarchy.  And that's not to say I think we should just go mop up every gov't that isn't a democracy, but WHEN we choose to topple a gov't (let's think more WWII so as to avoid the whole Iraq debate for a change) then we put a democracy in place and give those people freedom and the ability to choose the type of society THEY want, via elections.  I just think that's a good thing, and the "empire" thing just gets on my nerves.  Of all the western nations, we have had the smallest number of "municipalities" or whatever you want to call them.  France still can't let their interests in Africa go.  It's like, give it up guys; they don't want you there butting into their business.  Anyway, I feel the thing about the "gov't", but some people really think that America, not the administration, sucks, and THAT, I don't get.

Hoshi: I think your take on voter fraud is about right. To me
the whole thing is just something for the fanatic left to latch
on to convince themselves that they didn't lose the election.
"We deserve to be in charge, damn it! And those nasty, evil,
slimy, unfair, stupid Republicans couldn't win fair and square,
they had to steal the election. That's the only way we could
have lost!" Bah, the race was a tie and the coin flip ended up
in W's court is the way I look at it. It's like when my sports
teams lose a close one. There is ALWAYS a questionable
call the fanatic can blame the loss on. IF ONLY! Bah!

My problem with the election is that we were allowed to
choose only between Bush and Kerry.

And HI VoT! Thought you weren't going to discuss politics
here. Too tempting, huh? I think it is disengenious to try
and restrict the talk about "forcing democracy" to
"let's think more WWII so as to avoid the whole Iraq debate
for a change" since Iraq is the whole point of the argument.
Forget everything BUT Iraq. Iraq is the case under discussion.
Okay? WWII was a bit different and, arguably, totally
irrelevant to the case of Iraq (and whatever comes next.)

(Sorry, I know I am totally ignorant, so just ignore
me, but seeing as I am totally incapable of being anything
other than myself, I just had to butt in. I'll shut up now.)

Quote from: Ythactha::Steals Rog's head from Era::

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNnnnnnnumy!

I am SUCH a whore. (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/cry.gif)

Well I do believe we are promoting democracy and freedom just the same in Iraq, but it seems it can't be mentioned without the whole "unjust war" thing being brought up.  Otherwise, it really is interchangeable IMO with the aftermath of WWII.

Also, you are 100% correct.  After I made the post I thought, "You weren't supposed to do that on this forum anymore".  Great minds think, um, alike, um...  I don't like where this is headed.  (crying in shame for having a like mind with a short gnome with an assface...)

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell I do believe we are promoting democracy and freedom just the same in Iraq,

One dead baby at a time! (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/banana.gif)(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/banana.gif)(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/banana.gif)

Quote from: Voice of TruthOtherwise, it really is interchangeable IMO with the aftermath of WWII.

Um, yeah.  Germans were blowing us up with IEDs in 1947.

Are you really this stupid?

Is anyone?

I'm talking about trying to establish democracy, not the actual things we had to deal with to do so.  Who's the stupid one.  This is exactly why I said I didn't bring up Iraq. :?

Then answer me this, VoT. Why did they "Topple" the Iraqi government in the first place? According to our president (now that he's admitted that the intelligence for WMD was wrong and thus not a good reason to attack), they did it to further democracy and freedom. That WAS their reasoning, and you can't skirt around that.

You cannot force a country to be democratic without huge amounts of unnecessary pain and suffering. You just can't. The people either want it and fight for it or they don't and they fight against it. The Plutocrats assumed that Iraq would want that and that they would support the ousting of their government no matter the cost to them. They were probably wrong. Democracy is not the One True Way, it's something a collective group of people chooses to govern themselves by. Note the word "chooses".

You might have altruistic reasons for starting the war in the middle east if you were in power, but you can't speak for our leaders, and frankly, their previous choices, connections and world views give us more than enough evidence to say that this war was not fought for "freedom".

If you shove Democracy and Americana down people's throats enough times, sooner or later they're going to turn against you. I know a man who works and lives in Iraq while still having american interests. The minute the war broke out he (approximately) stated that "They haven't done enough research, haven't talked to the Iraqi people about what they truly want, haven't studied the way things are done in this country. They don't want to win the people's hearts and minds. Whoever is doing intelligence for them should be fired. There were many people who wanted the US to help get rid of Saddam but they lesson with every "heart and minds" attack and every spit on their religion and customs. They'll wise up and do it the right way if they want this to turn out well for this country."

They didn't even make the effort to wise up and fight this the smart way. They were psychologically lazy and boorish, and to me that not only shows that this war was poorly thought out and unjust but that they had suspect motives to begin with.

The means sometimes justify the end, you might say. Well, in this case they had the opportunity to do this in a way that would be benificial to everyone (not that I think that that would be right anyway, but it would be better) and they chose not to do that. Instead they pulled when it was important to have slack, and they lost any sympathy many people had for us in the first place. Killing unnecessarily when it would have done just as well to have a little more patience and saved some lives cannot be justifyed. Thus, this war is wrong. Whose interests are they serving? Not America's, and not Iraq's.

No, you don't want to get me started on the subject of Iraq.

Quote*kills Ythactha leisurely, with much splashing of blood and vitals*

*Performs "Wave Hands Like Clouds", follows with "ward off left" and finishes with "Apparent Close Up". Era's arm is now in painful lock in which Ythactha can break elbow at any moment*

8)

Ych, you're already dead.  Your guts are hanging from the ceiling fan.  You're in no mood to be waving your hands around in silly-sounding positions.
Rog's cranium is MINE!

QuoteAfter I made the post I thought, "You weren't supposed to do that on this forum anymore". Great minds think, um, alike, um... I don't like where this is headed.

Ignore that little voice in your head, VoT. The one that says that you're heading towards a dropoff... you don't need that voice.   :twisted:

Go ahead, break your rules. Join us and our hall of mirrors. You know you want to.

You know, I've seen some pretty interesting statistics in some recent polls in Iraq about voter turnout.  One of them was as high as 80%.  Hell, we have a hard time getting over 50% in this country.  I call that accepting democracy (maybe I'm crazy).  We'll see how the elections goal and resume the Iraq debate.

Quote from: Voice of TruthOne of them was as high as 80%.  

I hate to do this, but cite? I hadn't heard a number so high.

I'm not sure I would call that Democracy, given their choices. More like "Oh crap, let's not vote for another tyrant, and please God let us get the Americans out."

We'll see if it turns into true democracy in the coming years, or if it continues to serve the interests of the elite.

And anyone who makes a joke about democracy and serving the elite being one and the same, shame on you.

Stop being such libs, ya libs.  :P

Quote from: ellemenobut i think a deliberate conspiracy of voter fraud would be extremely hard to prove.

Well, yeah, now that we have paperless electronic voting, it's nigh impossible.
I swear, one of these days we're gonna wind up with President Spongebob....
:twisted:

Quote from: the gnomeMy problem with the election is that we were allowed to
choose only between Bush and Kerry.

Yeah. Phooey on both of 'em....though I did like Kerry's plan of social-work-for-college-tuition....oh well!!!! I wanted Kucinich all along, bobdamnit....but nooooo, it was just another non-choice between "Short rich asshole" and "Tall rich asshole." Or, as they described it on South Park - would you rather vote for a Giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich?

[and the Turd Sandwich campaign logo was a direct parody of Bush's logo, hehe]

:lol:

QuoteOne of them was as high as 80%. Hell, we have a hard time getting over 50% in this country. I call that accepting democracy (maybe I'm crazy). We'll see how the elections goal and resume the Iraq debate.

If we had guns to our backs, we'd probably show up to vote, too.

:(

Quote from: agent compassionI swear, one of these days we're gonna wind up with President Spongebob....

Now that he's "gay" he's lost the pubbie vote, as well as the catholic vote. And after those accusations of Sandy's... It's Dukakis all over again.

I'm going to go with Frylock in 2008.

QuoteI'm going to go with Frylock in 2008.

Yeah! Frylock!

It may be Meatwad, if he still has that ancient Egyptian t-shirt that gives him mind control powers... 8)

His "wife" won't let him wear that shirt anymore.

Plus, I think Shake pawned it.

Frylock for Emporer! All hail the Frylock.

Quote from: Voice of TruthYou know, I've seen some pretty interesting statistics in some recent polls in Iraq about voter turnout.  One of them was as high as 80%.  

Incredible, thats the percenage of foreign Iraqis who have somehow not able to or unwilling to vote! (Source The Times, UK one)  Also, the fact that some of the largest parties (like the largest Sunni party and one of the larger Shia parties) have pulled out because of the unfairness in the election procedures.

BLOOD!

BLOOD FOR THE BLOODTHRONE SKULLS FOR THE SKULLTHRONE!

Quote from: Voice of TruthI like really cheap red wine.  Not Ripple or anything, but like, Livingston or something.  The expensive stuff is good, but hard on the pocket book.  Plus it can be a little dry sometimes.  But I do like an occassional wine buzz.  It's by far, the most functionally effective alcohol I mess with.  Even the bourbon can't hold a candle to a good sized bottle of wine.

Your sophistication in the arena of alcohol is comparable to your sophistication in the arena of political thought:  Amaturish, inept, unsophisticated, and illogical.




Just saying.



LMNO
-The Open Bar's Resident Bartender and Booze Snob.




Oh, and Sepia: Tone down the Avatar, buddy.  It's smooshing the text.

Sophistication is WAY over-rated.  If someone's happy drinking cheap red wine, so what?  If they want to stand around with their buddies, leaning on a beat-up pickup and drinking Budweiser, so what?  Hell, I applaud them for not doing something they don't want to do in order to appear more cultured.

Quote from: Wishfarple...stand around with their buddies, leaning on a beat-up pickup and drinking Budweiser...

What a coincidence!  Much like Voice of Truth, they probably voted for Bush, too!

I found the survey VoT was talking about.

http://www.iri.org/1-20-05-IraqiElection.asp

The caveats: It was conducted by the International Republican
Institute; two provinces were not included in the poll (presumably
because they were too volatile); not quite 50% of the Sunnis
said they would vote; percentage of people who have received
their registration information and those correctly identifying
the election date were less than the 80% likely to vote (apparently
20% of Iraqis are "likely" to vote on the wrong day.)

In its defense: It appears to be a properly designed poll; it
is the latest in a series of similar polls, which show a positive
trend in favor of the election; nobody else seems to have any
better polling data.

Questions: How likely is someone in Iraq to tell the truth? (what
would you say to someone apparently representing an occupying
power?); How were people selected for this poll? (What kinds
of lists of people exist in Iraq for names to be drawn from? How
random is the selection of participants?)

The ultimate poll is, of course, the election itself. We'll see
what happens then in Iraq's 111 party election.

"If we had guns to our backs, we'd probably show up to vote, too."

Acutally that used to go on during Saddam's time and they always had 100% turnout and he always received 100% of the vote.  If anything, their exercising of their right to not vote is still an improvement over that load of crap.

As to the alcohol thing, I love a good import beer, but yes, Budweiser and Icehouse tend to me my usual.  Sorry guys, but if you're not rich, it's hard to be "sophisticated alcoholic".  Maybe if I only drank every once in a blue moon, but since that's not the case, I have to save the expensive stuff for rare occasions.  Also, about two months ago, at my brother's bachelor party, we all dranks buds and smoked buds while we leaned against a pickup truck or sat around and shot guns.  Is that red enough for you guys? Only a few hands got shot off... :wink:

Also the reason I said the "One of them was as high as..." was because I did see it on FoxNews and I have no reservations about their conservative slant.  That's why I've said I get my news from various sources, but I'm glad to see it was a fairly credible poll.

Finally, what's wrong with President Spongebob (Hail to the chief playing in the background...)

Tch tch, guns and alcohol...Massad Ayoob would be tearing you a new one now if he knew...

Quote from: Voice of TruthAcutally that used to go on during Saddam's time and they always had 100% turnout and he always received 100% of the vote.  If anything, their exercising of their right to not vote is still an improvement over that load of crap.

I think (if I remember right) in Australia if you don't vote, they fine you.
Kind of like a gun. Yeah, dictators always crow about how they got 100%
of 100%. Kind of makes 51% of 40% look respectable. :wink:

Quote from: Voice of ToothIs that red enough for you guys?

Only if we get to see the color of the blood. (I like a good
Eldwichberry but I usually have to settle for Shiraz.)

Quote from: Voice of Truant... I'm glad to see it was a fairly credible poll.

That depends on your definition of "fairly."

Quote from: Voice of Trumpwhat's wrong with President Spongebob

I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! I knew George W. Bush was just a facade for
someone more sinister and powerful.

::bursts into room::


Look out!  The gnome's got a GUN!



Aaaaaaaaaaaaa!

::runs out of room::

Quote from: someoneFonzarell, voter fraud should've never happened, particularly in the first W win. But there's no denying the fact that half of the US wanted him for President in the first place. What was being contested was a miniscule portion of voters. Also, I tend to think that voter fraud happens in both camps, not just the pubs. Politics is sleazy. Either way, the lesson from that was not that republicans are evil but that we need to re-evaluate the electoral system on a smaller scale. Locally, is the system set up in such a way as to be fair to both parties?

I was never trying to argue that republicans are more evil that standard politicians. Anyone who has some sort of authority or a good chance of getting it becomes a total douchebag 9 times out of 10.

Quote from: someone elsethink your take on voter fraud is about right. To me
the whole thing is just something for the fanatic left to latch
on to convince themselves that they didn't lose the election.
"We deserve to be in charge, damn it! And those nasty, evil,
slimy, unfair, stupid Republicans couldn't win fair and square,
they had to steal the election. That's the only way we could
have lost!" Bah, the race was a tie and the coin flip ended up
in W's court is the way I look at it. It's like when my sports
teams lose a close one. There is ALWAYS a questionable
call the fanatic can blame the loss on. IF ONLY! Bah!

No, I'm willing to admit that the majority of this country are fucktards.

Quote from: someone elseMy problem with the election is that we were allowed to
choose only between Bush and Kerry.

Here here. That's the problem with this "democracy" in general. How is "evil" and "slightly less evil but still pretty fucking evil" a choice?

And this whole "invading Iraq to bring democracy to the country" thing is bullshit. So when are we going to invade North Korea, Saudi Arabia, The Congo, Belarus and China?

Hint:  put "quotes" around the name of the person you are trying to quote.

Bulletin Board code is the bane of my existence. Sorry about that

The Congo is some kind of f-d up nothing.  There's really no gov't and no structure.  I don't think anybody could do anything if they went in there but start capping anyone that looks suspicious.  It would make for a good video game, I suppose.  "Duke Nukem:Bringing Justice to the Congo" :D

Quote from: LMNOHint:  put "quotes" around the name of the person you are trying to quote.

Bigger hint click that button----->
The one that says quote.  If you need to quote multiple people, open 2 windows, you can copy out of one window and paste into the other. :wink:

And if you have firefox, hit "ctrl T" as youget a tab and its easier to manage then.

Firefox kicks ass.

Quote from: Voice of Truth"If we had guns to our backs, we'd probably show up to vote, too."

OK, dude...one last time...if you fucking quote people, instead of just putting quotation marks around what they said at the top of your post, you'll get whatever point you were trying to make across alot better...there have been times that I have gotten confused over what you were trying to say because I missed that you were "quoting" someone at the beginning, and if the CinC of the NSRA can miss that, then certainly the proles haven't got a chance...the hell with you're little "i'm just gonna be an irritating bastard because I can't find intelligent, relevant ways to jake people" bullshit, just use the fucking quote function already, capisce?

Quote from: Voice of Truth...we all dranks buds and smoked buds while we leaned against a pickup truck or sat around and shot guns.  Is that red enough for you guys? Only a few hands got shot off...

this sounds like what most of my friends and I do (at least, on the one or two days a month I take off work) all the time, and not a single one of us voted for Emperor Lying Fuckbag...please don't make the generalization that all rednecks are zealous right-wing yokels...it'd be giving rednecks a bad name...

8)

edit: I wouldn't be caught dead drinking a Buttweiper...if I'm gonna drink cheap yellow beer, it's gonna be PBR or nothing!

Budweiser drinker!

Seriously though, have you tasted the 'original'?

The czech budweiser budw/var?


yummy.

actually, yes I have...buddy of mine smuggled some back from a snowboarding trip he went on...and the Czech version was pretty good...but the american version sucks rancid hog-ass, gives a wicked hangover(too much sugar), and gives one a wicked case of the "Bud Mud" the next day...

8)

Just for the record, why don't you go back and read that post of mine.  I didn't say anything about being redneck meant you voted for Bush.  That was somebody else.  Why you puttin' words in my mouth fool.  (Mr T is back...).  For real dude, I didn't say that.

Also PBR is mighty fine, but I usually only get that at the bars.  I can get 24 pks of Bud for $14 right now and Icehouse was 30 pks for $11.50 for like 6 months last year.  I like pretty much anything that's not either watered down to wholly hell (all the lights) or bitter (Heineken, Beck's green label).  I just kind of settled in on Bud because it's easy to come by and a decent price.  

Lastly, on the quote thing, I said I was lazy.  That's my largest factor.  Sorry. :wink:

I've got your lazy crammed up my twat, baby!

I've got your ttwat crammed up my... nah, maybe I won't

On the other hand, 80% may be WAY over-optimistic.

Quote from: Today's Papers from Slate Magazine
In a teased news piece, the [New York Times'] John Burns declares, "Baghdad is not under control, either by the Iraqi interim government or the American military." A named colonel in charge of southern Baghdad, went even starker, "I would definitely say it's enemy territory." Burns get last week's conservative tally from a U.S. security firm: "7 suicide car bombings, 37 roadside bombs and 52 insurgent attacks involving automatic rifles or rocket-propelled grenades." Burns also sees residents too scared to go to the polls: "In one Baghdad office, only one of 20 people who were asked said he intended to vote." The one bright spot is the now-calm Sadr City.

The full article, complete with links to the referenced newspaper articles
is here: http://slate.bfi0.com/W0RH040A743E276E3F5763F2A16D80

Quote from: Voice of Truth in his next responseNew York Times?  Slate?

Liberal claptrap!

Quote from: LMNO

Quote from: Voice of Truth in his next responseNew York Times?  Slate?

Liberal claptrap!

I knew a guy who'd do that. Despite everything, I'm not that sure if VoT is that insane.

Quote from: Sinner Bob the Mediocre

Quote from: LMNO

Quote from: Voice of Truth in his next responseNew York Times?  Slate?

Liberal claptrap!

I knew a guy who'd do that. Despite everything, I'm not that sure if VoT is that insane.

And that man's name was Sean Hannity.

I will say one thing in defense of Budweiser. I'm pretty sure it's union made. Power to the workers!
Also, when I was in St. Louis we went on the tour of the bud brewery. You can't believe how damn fast they're making that swill...

Quote from: Rev. Chicken DeliciousYou can't believe how damn fast they're making that swill...

::gulp, gulp, gulp::

Yes, I can.


LMNO
-Doesn'ta ctually drink Bud, but felt the joke should be made anyway.

Quote from: LMNO

Quote from: Sinner Bob the Mediocre

Quote from: LMNO

Quote from: Voice of Truth in his next responseNew York Times?  Slate?

Liberal claptrap!

I knew a guy who'd do that. Despite everything, I'm not that sure if VoT is that insane.

And that man's name was Sean Hannity.

Perhaps. He goes by htjyang (http://www.ambrosiasw.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91969) online, though. If you can stand inanity, tedium, and idiocy, feel free to *ahem* argue over there.

Quote from: DJRubberduckyI've got your lazy crammed up my twat, baby!

I thought that was a yeast infection?  Anyway, I usually get my hubby booby beer for his birthday.  I mean St Pauli's Girl.

I made boob pasta once. It tasted like normal pasta.

Quote from: HoshikoI made boob pasta once. It tasted like normal pasta.

Just more fun to nibble on?

Quote from: HoshikoI made boob pasta once. It tasted like normal pasta.

Tee-hee!  I made "Pasta Peckerino" for a friend once.  The penis pasta, alfredo sauce, and a couple of Italian sausages and meatballs from Buca di Beppo, artfully arranged.  Topped with shaved pecorino romano, of course.

(Yes, it took two sausages.  The meatballs were so big that I had to split one sausage and shove the other sausage into it to make the dick proportionally wide.)

Inspired!

I bow to your superior culinary skills  8)

New York Times? Slate?

Liberal claptrap!


Just kidding...  The New York Times IS pretty fucking liberal.  At least I'm honest about FoxNews being conservative.  You should accept the similar conclusions about bias at the NY Times.  I don't really know anything about the Slate, though.  Anyway, that's not to say I don't believe the poll, but for real, the NY Times is about as lib as they come. :wink:

Eeew....

Remember when it was a badge of honor to have alcohol that had, y'know, aged for a while? And now, all the pisswater beer companies are making "freshness" a selling point..."fresh beer?"

FRESH BEER?

IT'S FERMENTED FER CHRISSAKES!

It's SUPPOSED to be old and funky! GEEZ!

:x

Quote from: agent compassion

It's SUPPOSED to be old and funky! GEEZ!

:x

Isn't that kind of like fresh bleu cheese?

Quote from: DJRubberducky

Quote from: HoshikoI made boob pasta once. It tasted like normal pasta.

Tee-hee!  I made "Pasta Peckerino" for a friend once.  The penis pasta, alfredo sauce, and a couple of Italian sausages and meatballs from Buca di Beppo, artfully arranged.  Topped with shaved pecorino romano, of course.

(Yes, it took two sausages.  The meatballs were so big that I had to split one sausage and shove the other sausage into it to make the dick proportionally wide.)

I hadda porn part once and we did that too!!

I wont even get into the cake we made

You can't jump out if you don't get in first.

My friend had a penis-themed birthday party once. Penis-shaped light switch covers, penis balloons, penis-shaped cake, etc.

I kept waiting for my lesbian friends to have a vagina-themed party but they never did. Well, not one that I wanted to attend anyway.

Have you guys ever seen the parody Mad Tv (at least I think it was Mad Tv) did of the Vagina Monologues?
They had Barbara Bush, Nancy Reagan, Hillary Clinton and Margaret Thatcher reading the lines.
It was one of the funnier things I've ever seen in my entire life.

Funny but disturbing, right?

Kind of like getting shot at by a feminist midget.

Quote from: Malaul

Quote from: DJRubberducky

Quote from: HoshikoI made boob pasta once. It tasted like normal pasta.

Tee-hee!  I made "Pasta Peckerino" for a friend once.  The penis pasta, alfredo sauce, and a couple of Italian sausages and meatballs from Buca di Beppo, artfully arranged.  Topped with shaved pecorino romano, of course.

(Yes, it took two sausages.  The meatballs were so big that I had to split one sausage and shove the other sausage into it to make the dick proportionally wide.)

I hadda porn part once and we did that too!!

I wont even get into the cake we made

My girlfriend and I invented a very easy dish. It's Lasagna but with meatballs (or meatless meatballs) instead of meat.  It tastes exactly the same as regular lasagna, but it's great for potlucks and dinner parties because you can go around asking everyone "Would you like some ballsagna?" or "Have you tried my ballsagna?"

i've seen parts of the vagina monologues. or at least i think i've only seen parts. i might've repressed it as parts i do remember were awful scary.
such a dmaned misleading name wtf? i thought it was gonna be abotu vaginas givign speeches or soemthing.

Quote from: HoshikoFunny but disturbing, right?

Kind of like getting shot at by a feminist midget.

Entirely disturbing. Because they portrayed these ladies as very stiff and
uncomfortable with the material. But at the same time, it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

Quote from: horab fibslageri've seen parts of the vagina monologues. or at least i think i've only seen parts. i might've repressed it as parts i do remember were awful scary.
such a dmaned misleading name wtf? i thought it was gonna be abotu vaginas givign speeches or soemthing.

In all honesty, I've never been able to sit through more than a little bit of it. I've had plenty of chances because the agency I'm working for again has used it as a fund raiser several times. They don't really encourage me to go to the performances, either. Because I get the giggles  thinking about the Mad Tv version and kind of ruin it for everyone else.

And NOW I'm even less likely to sit through it, thanks to you, horab. I'll be picturing giant talking vaginas up on the stage.  :shock:

*stabs all Bush supporters and all conservative nutboys*

*stabs Hugh in order to put a stop to the by now utterly boring and predictable "discordian jihad" or whatever the fuck it is that means I have to wade through 86 threads worth of stupid crap every goddamn time Hugh decides he's had enough tequila to bother gracing us with his presence...*

*stops to appreciate the irony of Hugh turning into the ultimate "fluff poster" *

8)

Quote from: Voice of TruthNew York Times? Slate?

Liberal claptrap!


Just kidding...  The New York Times IS pretty fucking liberal.  At least I'm honest about FoxNews being conservative.  You should accept the similar conclusions about bias at the NY Times.  I don't really know anything about the Slate, though.  Anyway, that's not to say I don't believe the poll, but for real, the NY Times is about as lib as they come. :wink:

I would argue, but I think this thread is going in a better direction and don't want to ruin it.

Quote from: GOAT*stabs Hugh in order to put a stop to the by now utterly boring and predictable "discordian jihad" or whatever the fuck it is that means I have to wade through 86 threads worth of stupid crap every goddamn time Hugh decides he's had enough tequila to bother gracing us with his presence...*

*stops to appreciate the irony of Hugh turning into the ultimate "fluff poster" *

8)

Pot calling the kettle black?  You post a whole lot of crap every day, so he's saves his crap until he's constipated and blows?  Big fucking deal :roll:

That's just because you're a sinner....Bob.  Aaaahahaha... Wooh!!  I kill myself... :lol:

I don't hate Bush. After 10 years of marriage, I'll take whatever she gives me. As far as the president goes, I look at him, and look at the other presidents we've had, and the choices running against him in 2000 and 2004, and I shrug folks. It's a serious fnord. Bush isn't great, but neither is he horrible. His opposition was dismal. No one has any other solutions. I just hope for the best and breathe in the chaos.

Quote from: ScytanoBush isn't great, but neither is he horrible.

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/wtf.gif)

Quote from: ScytanoNo one has any other solutions.

Fox News, much, pinhead?  Have some more koolaid.

Quote from: GOAT*stabs Hugh in order to put a stop to the by now utterly boring and predictable "discordian jihad" or whatever the fuck it is that means I have to wade through 86 threads worth of stupid crap every goddamn time Hugh decides he's had enough tequila to bother gracing us with his presence...*

*stops to appreciate the irony of Hugh turning into the ultimate "fluff poster" *

8)

I haven't seen any deep thoughts out of you, Sparky.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: ScytanoBush isn't great, but neither is he horrible.

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/wtf.gif)

Quote from: ScytanoNo one has any other solutions.

Fox News, much, pinhead?  Have some more koolaid.

Now that's not very nice. I'm no Bush fan, nor am I a conservative. But Kerry? Gore? C'mon... The Democrats tried to counter a shitty candidate with shitty candidates of their own. Blech. Can you point to a better candidate, or are you just another mouthbreathing "anybody-but-Bush"-ite? If you are then I feel sorry for you. Partisanship, no matter what side it comes from, is for the dim and weak-minded.

Quote from: Scytano

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: ScytanoBush isn't great, but neither is he horrible.

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/wtf.gif)

Quote from: ScytanoNo one has any other solutions.

Fox News, much, pinhead?  Have some more koolaid.

Now that's not very nice. I'm no Bush fan, nor am I a conservative. But Kerry? Gore? C'mon... The Democrats tried to counter a shitty candidate with shitty candidates of their own. Blech. Can you point to a better candidate, or are you just another mouthbreathing "anybody-but-Bush"-ite? If you are then I feel sorry for you. Partisanship, no matter what side it comes from, is for the dim and weak-minded.

1.  The Good Reverend has never been accused of being very nice.  Ask around.

2.  Kerry was a douchebag.  That being said, the portion of your statement I objected to was that nobody had any other "solutions".  HINT:  Bush has offered NO "solutions".  He has, however, buried us up to our hairline in tons of unnecessary problems.  So, unless you can provide ONE (1) "solution" Bush has come up with, I stand by the nasty comment.

3.  As for "Candidates", in reality, you only had one.  KerryBush, the candidate from GE/Westinghouse.  There is no republic, just a rotten edifice which should be destroyed...or at least be forced to change its name, to avoid further shaming the memory of the founders.

I dunno, I thought Al Sharpton's hair really had a chance.


Bush is not the same as Kerry, he's worse in that he's given up all pretense of serving the people in any aspect. He's not even giving us the illusion of serving his country, and why would he? We found out in 2004 that it doesn't matter if you're blatently catering to big business so long as you give 'em an "aw-shucks" look and the hope that you'll keep this country Christian. That's a dangerous road to start down.

Kerry gave us the illusion that he was for the "people". He wasn't, and he was a corporate as Bush as Roger's shown in the past, but you have a pretense there, and anytime someone is maintaining a pretense you have a small amount of control over them and their policies. They can't be blatent in their approach, and that's what's been serving the American people since the beginning. It's a battle we're losing, but it's still a battle.

Bush was running on the fact that he believed in "God" and that "God" would tell him what to do and make him a good president. If you question him, why, you're questioning God's will. You're trampling on our religious freedoms! Those Muslims deserve to be free and Christian, and I'm not exactly doing it for the country, I'm doing it because someone needs to start looking out for the heathens.

Where's the opportunity for debate or questioning there? He's set himself up as a religious leader as well as political, and he's damn smart for doing it. He's got everyone else in Check.  

That's a small distinction, but it's important.

"Incapable of unraveling the military-industrial mystery
Pre-emptively passified with history book history."

Quote1.  The Good Reverend has never been accused of being very nice.  Ask around.

In time I will learn I suppose. I do enjoy debates however.

Quote2.  Kerry was a douchebag.  That being said, the portion of your statement I objected to was that nobody had any other "solutions".  HINT:  Bush has offered NO "solutions".  He has, however, buried us up to our hairline in tons of unnecessary problems.  So, unless you can provide ONE (1) "solution" Bush has come up with, I stand by the nasty comment.

In 2000 my main objection to Gore was his wife, who is as much a censor as anyone in the Bush administration. Now, that was before I or anyone else knew that Ashcroft would be planted in the AG's chair... so I guess we were screwed either way on that front. You can bet that with Gore as president there would have been an even greater effort on behalf of the government to kill filesharing as well. Don't know how you all feel about that issue, but I think a free internet and the ability to share information is of great importance. So far the Bush administration has kept its hands off of that issue, and I attribute that mostly to the fact that they have no solid ties to the big media companies. Of course it sucks if you are a Muslim or decided to flirt with Islamic extremists, but I am neither and let's face it... Bush has done more for worldwide chaos than any president since the last one.
    As for a solution, I really can't think of any. Bush has done... things. They might be good in the future, maybe not. Certainly a democratic Iraq is a good thing, if it works. It appears that he has found the "solution" to islamic terror here in the US, by taking the fight to the Middle East, but we could have an attack tomorrow and that "solution" would evaporate faster than a bottle of Hennessy in Snoop Dog's VIP room. So no, I can't come up with any solutions for Bush.

Quote3.  As for "Candidates", in reality, you only had one.  KerryBush, the candidate from GE/Westinghouse.  There is no republic, just a rotten edifice which should be destroyed...or at least be forced to change its name, to avoid further shaming the memory of the founders.

Here we are in more or less complete agreement. Our bloated system of government needs to be radically reformed, sliced in size, and brought back to it's roots. Well, minus the slavery.

QuoteNow that's not very nice. I'm no Bush fan, nor am I a conservative. But Kerry? Gore? C'mon... The Democrats tried to counter a shitty candidate with shitty candidates of their own. Blech. Can you point to a better candidate, or are you just another mouthbreathing "anybody-but-Bush"-ite? If you are then I feel sorry for you. Partisanship, no matter what side it comes from, is for the dim and weak-minded.

1. Rog is a dick.
2. Kerry and Gore were dicks.
3. The people who came up with ABB were also dicks.
4. Partisanship - I agree with you there.
5. I got your better candidate right here --> (http://www.pcez.com/~valeyard/dkavatar.gif)

Welcome to the Discordian forums - Abandon All Hot Dog Buns Ye Who Enter Here. We have a token conservative, "Voice of Truth" who, despite his vehement claims to the contrary, is a total Discordian by way of his membership in the Political Order of the Party for War on Evil....feel free to kick him up and down the street - I mean debate him - anytime.

:twisted:

QuoteI dunno, I thought Al Sharpton's hair really had a chance.

You know, I actually like Sharpton. I know he isn't perfect by any means, but of all the Democrats who ran he was the only one I would have thrown my vote to. At least with him you know what you get.

QuoteBush is not the same as Kerry, he's worse in that he's given up all pretense of serving the people in any aspect. He's not even giving us the illusion of serving his country, and why would he? We found out in 2004 that it doesn't matter if you're blatently catering to big business so long as you give 'em an "aw-shucks" look and the hope that you'll keep this country Christian. That's a dangerous road to start down.

This is wrong on two fronts (I hate being put in the position to bat for Bush, because I really don't care for him much, but I like people to dislike him for the right reasons). Bush is no more connected to big business than Kerry. More accurately, they both are up to their necks in big business and special interests, just like all successful candidates. Bush has his favored industries and special groups, and Kerry has his. Both men are beholden, and both men are tainted for it.
As far as not serving the people, that's also incorrect. He is serving the interests of the religious right just fine. He's also serving the interests of investors and many other people who benefitted from his tax cuts. Now, is that the best course for the majority of the country? Maybe, maybe not... it depends on who you are and what you do.

QuoteKerry gave us the illusion that he was for the "people". He wasn't, and he was a corporate as Bush as Roger's shown in the past, but you have a pretense there, and anytime someone is maintaining a pretense you have a small amount of control over them and their policies. They can't be blatent in their approach, and that's what's been serving the American people since the beginning. It's a battle we're losing, but it's still a battle.

The nasty truth about Kerry is he would have done almost everything the same as Bush. I know it's disappointing, and I too am stuck without a representative just like all Democrats and Republicans who have an ounce of free-spirit.

QuoteBush was running on the fact that he believed in "God" and that "God" would tell him what to do and make him a good president. If you question him, why, you're questioning God's will. You're trampling on our religious freedoms! Those Muslims deserve to be free and Christian, and I'm not exactly doing it for the country, I'm doing it because someone needs to start looking out for the heathens.

Ummm, I don't see that. Again, I think you are attacking Bush for the wrong reasons. He's an open Christian and there's nothing wrong with that. what is wrong is his attempts to use that religion as a basis for policy... such as the rediculous ban on gay marriage. Bush however is not Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, though he is far too close to them for my comfort. This is one of my major problems with the man, as Christians do not bother me (I am one myself), but his flavor of Christianity is not my own and in any case his religion has no place is guiding policy.

<mangrove peers down from the safety of the observation deck, his faith resting in the bullet & blood-smear proof glass>

QuoteWelcome to the Discordian forums - Abandon All Hot Dog Buns Ye Who Enter Here. We have a token conservative, "Voice of Truth" who, despite his vehement claims to the contrary, is a total Discordian by way of his membership in the Political Order of the Party for War on Evil....feel free to kick him up and down the street - I mean debate him - anytime.

Thank you for the welcome. :)  Frankly I think the only things Bush has done correctly is cut taxes and blow shit up. Unfortunately he has also expanded the government to huge proportions, pussy-footed around in Iraq and with North Korea and Iran, and generally put forth a platform that makes about as much sense as having Greedo shoot first.

<Joins Mangrove behind the bullet and smear proof glass>

I don't know where this is going, but Id rather be safe.

<brings pie with, expecially cherry and rubarb>

Quote from: Ythactha<Joins Mangrove behind the bullet and smear proof glass>

I don't know where this is going, but Id rather be safe.

<brings pie with, expecially cherry and rubarb>

I'm with you guys, mmm...pie...How big is this section of glass, this could get really ugly...

:wink:

Is this forum full of Bush-lovers? Bring them hither!

QuoteHe is serving the interests of the religious right just fine. He's also serving the interests of investors and many other people who benefitted from his tax cuts. Now, is that the best course for the majority of the country? Maybe, maybe not... it depends on who you are and what you do.

Yeah....let's by all means keep handing out breaks to the top 5% who really don't need anymore, and fuck the other 95% roughly from behind without lubrication!!!!! YEEEEE-HAW!

He's supposed to represent and work for ALL AMERICANS. Not just rich ones.

QuoteFrankly I think the only things Bush has done correctly is cut taxes and blow shit up. Unfortunately he has also expanded the government to huge proportions, pussy-footed around in Iraq and with North Korea and Iran, and generally put forth a platform that makes about as much sense as having Greedo shoot first.

The taxes were cut from the people at the top FIRST and the people at the bottom got an average of $95 back, if that. You have to be in the high tax brackets (6 figures at least) to get much of anything from his cuts. Again, seeing as how few people actually make that kind of money....well, you get my drift. Also, blowing shit up is EASY. We don't need anymore blowing shit up. We need someone who can CLEAN shit up, because Iraq is a total mess and so is Afghanistan.

North Korea's biggest problem is famine. I don't think bombs will solve that. Iran is moving in a democratic-theocratic direction all by itself, however slowly(if you ever met any Iranians you know they do things very leisurely), and lemme ask you something - if your neighbor was as nuts as Israel, wouldn't you want to have some "protection" as well?

QuoteIs this forum full of Bush-lovers? Bring them hither!

Not even close - why, are you hungry?

Quote from: ScytanoSo far the Bush administration has kept its hands off of that issue, and I attribute that mostly to the fact that they have no solid ties to the big media companies.

Of course it sucks if you are a Muslim or decided to flirt with Islamic extremists, but I am neither and let's face it... Bush has done more for worldwide chaos than any president since the last one.
   

As for a solution, I really can't think of any. Bush has done... things.

1.  WTF?  Clearchannel, much?

2.  And, of course, it's all about you.  Yep...we all know Cat Stevens is a terrorist.  CAT STEVENS, YUO WILL PAY FOR "MOONSHADOW"!!111  As far as Chaos, sure...but he stopped being funny about a year and a half ago.

3.  Charles Manson did things, too.  I guess it's just a matter of scale.

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerI haven't seen any deep thoughts out of you, Sparky.

::snicker::

sparky

Quote from: Malaul

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerI haven't seen any deep thoughts out of you, Sparky.

::snicker::

sparky

The Good Reverend is feeling a little nasty today.

I blame society.

QuoteThe Good Reverend is feeling a little nasty today.

I blame society.

I didn't do it.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Malaul

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerI haven't seen any deep thoughts out of you, Sparky.

::snicker::

sparky

The Good Reverend is feeling a little nasty today.

I blame society.

That's why I am hiding behind the glass.  Nice to have you back, Rog.  I was going to after this guy, but I left him for you. :wink:

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Malaul

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerI haven't seen any deep thoughts out of you, Sparky.

::snicker::

sparky

The Good Reverend is feeling a little nasty today.

I blame society.

lil?
today?


who you talkin to roger?
youre a lot nasty EVERYDAY

QuoteBush is no more connected to big business than Kerry. More accurately, they both are up to their necks in big business and special interests, just like all successful candidates. Bush has his favored industries and special groups, and Kerry has his. Both men are beholden,

and both men are tainted for it.

I agree, and if you read my post again you'll see that I was saying that both men are equally connected. The difference is that one is upholding the pretense of "for the people", and the other just doesn't care anymore.

QuoteAs far as not serving the people, that's also incorrect. He is serving the interests of the religious right just fine. He's also serving the interests of investors and many other people who benefitted from his tax cuts. Now, is that the best course for the majority of the country? Maybe, maybe not... it depends on who you are and what you do.

No, he is not serving the interests of the religious right. That was part of his platform, but when you get right down to it what has he done to further their position, those majority of the religious right who are blue collar and loving Jesus? It's all about money for him, but he is clever and used the religious nature of this country against us. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with being Christian. I'm saying that any true Christian wouldn't have made the decisions he has. He's hiding behind a shield of Christianity while screwing them over as well as the rest of us.

He's not a Christian in the true sense of the word. That too is an illusion, and it's one the majority bought. They'll pay for it in time.

QuoteThe nasty truth about Kerry is he would have done almost everything the same as Bush. I know it's disappointing, and I too am stuck without a representative just like all Democrats and Republicans who have an ounce of free-spirit.

I disagree, but that's nothing that either of us can really prove. I doubt Kerry would have made the same Supreme Court Appointment decisions, for example.

Quotewhat is wrong is his attempts to use that religion as a basis for policy... such as the rediculous ban on gay marriage. Bush however is not Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, though he is far too close to them for my comfort. This is one of my major problems with the man, as Christians do not bother me (I am one myself), but his flavor of Christianity is not my own and in any case his religion has no place is guiding policy.

Bingo. Now add in the fact that he's not really looking to ban gay marriage per se and we'll have a winner.

What, you thought he was serious about all of that religious stuff? No, he never wanted a gay marriage ban himself, he wanted the voters that did. He catered to the ultra right but he himself has no personal agendas beyond making money for him and his friends.

He's a party boy at heart playing the conservative, and playing it badly.

Quote from: Scytanoflirt with Islamic extremists

It wasnt flirting, we were just being friendly.

Quote from: agent compassion
North Korea's biggest problem is famine. I don't think bombs will solve that. Iran is moving in a democratic-theocratic direction all by itself, however slowly(if you ever met any Iranians you know they do things very leisurely), and lemme ask you something - if your neighbor was as nuts as Israel, wouldn't you want to have some "protection" as well?

both North korea and Iran's biggest problem is that THEY ARE DEVELOPING NUCLEAR WEAPONS. fuck their "people" and all that bullshit, their leaders would not hesitate to provide Hizbollah or some other like-minded group a nuclear weapon to detonate in the streets of a major american city...what if it was Portland? would you be so concerned about their famine and cultural mores then? of course not...it's unfortunate for the citizens of those countries that their respective leaders have put them as a whole in this position, but the truth is we should turn both countries into fucking glass parking lots before they try to do it to us...and as for your continued support of Kucinich, are you serious? would you really wanrt that man leading this country? I'm sure he's a nice guy who wants good things for people, but he's also a complete space-case...I'd love ot have him over for coffee and bonghits, but I'd vote for Bush over Kucinich 10 out of 10 times...your other points may have some merit, but as soon as you mention blissed-out hippie boy, the credibility goes out the window...he's just not a realistic option...now Sharpton, that's a man who'd get my vote every time...

8)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: GOAT*stabs Hugh in order to put a stop to the by now utterly boring and predictable "discordian jihad" or whatever the fuck it is that means I have to wade through 86 threads worth of stupid crap every goddamn time Hugh decides he's had enough tequila to bother gracing us with his presence...*

*stops to appreciate the irony of Hugh turning into the ultimate "fluff poster" *

8)

was I talking to you?

no need to check your cheat-sheet, brainiac...the answer is NO, I wasn't...



I haven't seen any deep thoughts out of you, Sparky.

8)

Agent Compassion--- I had a nice long reply that just got eaten... :x  In a nutshell I was disagreeing with the notion that only the rich benefitted from Bush's tax cuts, as I benefitted from them, and I am not rich. There are many people like me as well, and if Bush had screwed everyone so throughly he would not have gotten the votes he received. People heard that mantra from the left for months, looked at their own situation, and disagreed. Now, I am not about to argue that Bush has been good for the country on the whole, or that he didn't deserve to be cast out in 2004. My contention is that the other options simply weren't any better. I wish that wasn't true but that's the way it is.

QuoteNot even close - why, are you hungry?

it seems that every forum I go to there's no Bush sycophants. This has the unfortunate effect of painting my views as "right-wing." And I hate that. :P

Quote1. WTF? Clearchannel, much?

No, not much actually. Clear Channel came in at #6 for donations to politicians and PACS for 2004 out of all media companies, with over $700,000.00--- 2/3 of that going to Republicans. Contrast that with the top two media donors, Time Warner and Viacom. Time Warner gave $2.2 million, 77% of which went to Democrats. Viacom gave $1.1 million, with 78% to Democrats. In fact, Clear Channel is the highest on the list that actually gave a clear donation advantage to Republicans. So, they DO have ties to CC, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the other side. The legislation also supports this. With the exception of Orrin Hatch, who is a recording "artist" himself, the Democrats have led the charge in favor of tighter copyright protection and cracking down on filesharing.

Quote2. And, of course, it's all about you. Yep...we all know Cat Stevens is a terrorist. CAT STEVENS, YUO WILL PAY FOR "MOONSHADOW"!!111 As far as Chaos, sure...but he stopped being funny about a year and a half ago.

The Cat Stevens stuff was dumb, no argument there.

Quote from: Society

QuoteThe Good Reverend is feeling a little nasty today.

I blame society.

I didn't do it.

:lol:

Don't try to weasel out of it, mister!

Quote from: GOAT

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: GOAT*stabs Hugh in order to put a stop to the by now utterly boring and predictable "discordian jihad" or whatever the fuck it is that means I have to wade through 86 threads worth of stupid crap every goddamn time Hugh decides he's had enough tequila to bother gracing us with his presence...*

*stops to appreciate the irony of Hugh turning into the ultimate "fluff poster" *

8)

I haven't seen any deep thoughts out of you, Sparky.

was I talking to you?

no need to check your cheat-sheet, brainiac...the answer is NO, I wasn't...8)

Do I give a fuck?  

Nope.

I think the opinion of one who does nothing but heckle people who try to be creative (such as Hugh), while doing fuck-all himself, will not cause me to lose any sleep.

You, sir, are no different than the average music critic.  No talent,  so you poke holes in the works of others.

:yawn:

Quote from: ScytanoNo, not much actually. Clear Channel came in at #6 for donations to politicians and PACS for 2004 out of all media companies, with over $700,000.00--- 2/3 of that going to Republicans. Contrast that with the top two media donors, Time Warner and Viacom. Time Warner gave $2.2 million, 77% of which went to Democrats. Viacom gave $1.1 million, with 78% to Democrats. In fact, Clear Channel is the highest on the list that actually gave a clear donation advantage to Republicans. So, they DO have ties to CC, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the other side. The legislation also supports this. With the exception of Orrin Hatch, who is a recording "artist" himself, the Democrats have led the charge in favor of tighter copyright protection and cracking down on filesharing.

Two words:  Armstrong Williams.

Quoteboth North korea and Iran's biggest problem is that THEY ARE DEVELOPING NUCLEAR WEAPONS. fuck their "people" and all that bullshit, their leaders would not hesitate to provide Hizbollah or some other like-minded group a nuclear weapon to detonate in the streets of a major american city...what if it was Portland? would you be so concerned about their famine and cultural mores then? of course not...it's unfortunate for the citizens of those countries that their respective leaders have put them as a whole in this position, but the truth is we should turn both countries into fucking glass parking lots before they try to do it to us...

EVERYONE has nukes these days. We have more nukes than ANYONE.
Don't you find it a bit strange that our nation has no problem stockpiling nukes yet simultaneously condemning other nations for getting or trying to get them? As for terrorists - terrorism grows in an environment of desperation. Extreme poverty, oppression, repression - sound like any countries you know? People with nothing left to lose? The causes of terrorism are not found, or solved, with bombs.

I hate nuclear weapons, ok? I wish NOBODY had them. But "Get them before they get us?" How retarded. This is what happens when people think this sort of behavior is acceptable: PEOPLE DIE.

It amazes me how many people only oppose the war on Iraq not because it's a pre-emptive war but because it's in IRAQ - as if it would be OK in some other country like North Korea or Iran or Syria or whatever. It isn't OK. Because everything eventually comes back to haunt you.

Quoteand as for your continued support of Kucinich, are you serious? would you really wanrt that man leading this country?

You know the answer to that one already.

QuoteI'm sure he's a nice guy who wants good things for people, but he's also a complete space-case...I'd love ot have him over for coffee and bonghits,

Why don't you do that then. Why don't you find an opportunity to talk to him and actually listen to him before you pass a judgement. He is no space-case. Just because some of his supporters are does not make him one....He is absolutely serious.

Quotebut I'd vote for Bush over Kucinich 10 out of 10 times...your other points may have some merit, but as soon as you mention blissed-out hippie boy, the credibility goes out the window...he's just not a realistic option.

Maybe to YOU. You and voters like you are the reason we have shitty candidates year after year. You vote against your own desire. You play it "safe." Hey, who's "electable?" What's "realistic?" What a stupid concept. Vote for whoever the fuck you WANT, not who's popular. Because it's always the assholes who win the popularity contests----but we vote for them ANYWAY. So then more assholes run for office thinking that's what the people want!

And since when are YOU the arbiter of MY credibility? I only got one thing to say to that: (http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/constrector/waglleybooty.gif)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Two words:  Armstrong Williams.

Five words: What difference does that make?

Quote from: agent compassion

Quoteboth North korea and Iran's biggest problem is that THEY ARE DEVELOPING NUCLEAR WEAPONS. fuck their "people" and all that bullshit, their leaders would not hesitate to provide Hizbollah or some other like-minded group a nuclear weapon to detonate in the streets of a major american city...what if it was Portland? would you be so concerned about their famine and cultural mores then? of course not...it's unfortunate for the citizens of those countries that their respective leaders have put them as a whole in this position, but the truth is we should turn both countries into fucking glass parking lots before they try to do it to us...

EVERYONE has nukes these days. We have more nukes than ANYONE.
Don't you find it a bit strange that our nation has no problem stockpiling nukes yet simultaneously condemning other nations for getting or trying to get them? As for terrorists - terrorism grows in an environment of desperation. Extreme poverty, oppression, repression - sound like any countries you know? People with nothing left to lose? The causes of terrorism are not found, or solved, with bombs.

I hate nuclear weapons, ok? I wish NOBODY had them. But "Get them before they get us?" How retarded. This is what happens when people think this sort of behavior is acceptable: PEOPLE DIE.

It amazes me how many people only oppose the war on Iraq not because it's a pre-emptive war but because it's in IRAQ - as if it would be OK in some other country like North Korea or Iran or Syria or whatever. It isn't OK. Because everything eventually comes back to haunt you.

Quoteand as for your continued support of Kucinich, are you serious? would you really wanrt that man leading this country?

You know the answer to that one already.

QuoteI'm sure he's a nice guy who wants good things for people, but he's also a complete space-case...I'd love ot have him over for coffee and bonghits,

Why don't you do that then. Why don't you find an opportunity to talk to him and actually listen to him before you pass a judgement. He is no space-case. Just because some of his supporters are does not make him one....He is absolutely serious.

Quotebut I'd vote for Bush over Kucinich 10 out of 10 times...your other points may have some merit, but as soon as you mention blissed-out hippie boy, the credibility goes out the window...he's just not a realistic option.

Maybe to YOU. You and voters like you are the reason we have shitty candidates year after year. You vote against your own desire. You play it "safe." Hey, who's "electable?" What's "realistic?" What a stupid concept. Vote for whoever the fuck you WANT, not who's popular. Because it's always the assholes who win the popularity contests----but we vote for them ANYWAY. So then more assholes run for office thinking that's what the people want!

And since when are YOU the arbiter of MY credibility? I only got one thing to say to that: (http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/constrector/waglleybooty.gif)

CLUE FOR THE CLUELESS:  You are being trolled by a dittohead.  Cut it out.

Quote from: Scytano

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Two words:  Armstrong Williams.

Five words: What difference does that make?

Okay.  You're trolling.  Or stupid.

I'm just getting real tired of all of this "lesser of two evils" bullshit. I want to do something about it. But I don't know where to start and Im impatient. Maybe I'll just move to a monestary...

Quote from: rogerI don't have any good responses for what you've said, but I'm incapable of allowing someone to make a point that's contrary to mine, so here's some meaningless shit-talking!

8)

Quote from: commiegoatit's unfortunate for the citizens of those countries that their respective leaders have put them as a whole in this position,

Yes, and since you invited me to turn things around....what if it WAS America, what if some other country decided to harm us based on what our leaders did? We'd be justifiably offended, saying "Wait, don't blame us for what they did" and we'd want to be spared....knowing that, now consider how the average Iraqi or Afghani must feel, to watch their neighborhoods turned into rubble just because WE didn't like THEIR leaders...

It's stupid and wrong no matter who does it. I wish leaders would just duke it out with each other when they had a grudge instead of getting their citizens involved and killed.

Quote from: YthacthaI'm just getting real tired of all of this "lesser of two evils" bullshit. I want to do something about it. But I don't know where to start and Im impatient. Maybe I'll just move to a monestary...

Well, you can't go wrong with a Mannlicher-Carcano...

TGRR,
Is DEFINITELY going to Gitmo, now.:lol:

Quote--- I had a nice long reply that just got eaten...

I hate that. BTW, welcome to the forums, and it's nice to see a new poster interested in debate. Exorcise those demons.  :twisted:

QuoteIn a nutshell I was disagreeing with the notion that only the rich benefitted from Bush's tax cuts,as I benefitted from them, and I am not rich.

Maybe not, but I'd be willing to bet that you're not poor either, and that you won't be too hurt by the drastic cuts to social programs such tax cuts entail. If you don't pay it, someone else has to. It's been reported that the national deficit will reach $427 billion (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/25deficit.html) by the end of this year. As it is each citizen of the US owns $25,812.74 of the present debt each. But heaven forbid you or me or Warren Buffett pay more in taxes. I think Bush missed the part where you cut spending while lowering taxes.

Quoteit seems that every forum I go to there's no Bush sycophants. This has the unfortunate effect of painting my views as "right-wing." And I hate that.

I'm pretty conservative myself for a liberal, but luckily I don't see Bush as a conservative so I don't have to play devil's advocate.

QuoteThe Cat Stevens stuff was dumb, no argument there.

You can take away my Yusuf Islam, but when you imprison Chong you've gone too far.

QuoteCLUE FOR THE CLUELESS: You are being trolled by a dittohead. Cut it out.

Point taken, Rog.
8)

Quote from: agent compassionIt's stupid and wrong no matter who does it. I wish leaders would just duke it out with each other when they had a grudge instead of getting their citizens involved and killed.

Well thats the thing, isnt it?  They wouldnt start this bullshit so much if there was a very real chance they would get hurt.

Quote from: GOATI am a rabid pillow biter.  I also like to post at free republic
8)

Hey, editting each other's posts is FUN!

I think you and I are going to have a good time.

Please, roger, Im being serious. Is there any possible way to solve this problem with minimal suffering? Does anyone have any ideas that might work? I need answers, because this is just pulling me down.

Quote from: YthacthaPlease, roger, Im being serious. Is there any possible way to solve this problem with minimal suffering?

Well, the last guy to try it was Jesus.

And you saw what happened to HIM...and what they twisted his words into, later.

The answer, historically, is "no".

Jesus people, slow down...

My poor dialup can't take it.  :P

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Scytano

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Two words:  Armstrong Williams.

Five words: What difference does that make?

Okay.  You're trolling.  Or stupid.

I'm trying to follow your train of thought here. There is no disputing that when you weigh the media companies giving to right and left, the vast majority of that cash goes to the left... now, I'm not talking about "media bias", I'm saying that your Clear Channel comment is only of marginal importance. The right owns talk radio, no doubt about that, but the only have a foothold in television (Fox News), and are still WAY behind in print media... to say nothing of movies and music.

The Armstrong Williams case is an utter fiasco and both he and the administration should be ashamed and admonished for it. But WTF does that have to do with mass media? Perhaps you are trolling? A familiar trolling tactic is to continually change the subject so as to obfuscate your own inability to tackle the question at hand...

Quote from: HoshikoJesus people, slow down...

My poor dialup can't take it.  :P

Dial up?

Does your computer have wooden keys? :lol:

Quote from: kittyscribe
Well thats the thing, isnt it? They wouldnt start this bullshit so much if there was a very real chance they would get hurt.

You hit that fucker right on the head. They don't HAVE to do the dirty work themselves - they just send someone else's kids to do it.

Maybe we should bring back dueling for world leaders and Cabinet members. No war, no "covert operations" - you gotta problem with Joe Prime Minister over there, you go tell him to his face, you meet at dawn, and settle it like gentlemen!

Quote from: YthacthaI'm just getting real tired of all of this "lesser of two evils" bullshit. I want to do something about it. But I don't know where to start and Im impatient. Maybe I'll just move to a monestary...

I agree with you 100%. It's sickening. I can't even support the Libertarians, cause they're nutcases too.  :?

Quote from: agent compassion

Quoteboth North korea and Iran's biggest problem is that THEY ARE DEVELOPING NUCLEAR WEAPONS. fuck their "people" and all that bullshit, their leaders would not hesitate to provide Hizbollah or some other like-minded group a nuclear weapon to detonate in the streets of a major american city...what if it was Portland? would you be so concerned about their famine and cultural mores then? of course not...it's unfortunate for the citizens of those countries that their respective leaders have put them as a whole in this position, but the truth is we should turn both countries into fucking glass parking lots before they try to do it to us...

EVERYONE has nukes these days. We have more nukes than ANYONE.
Don't you find it a bit strange that our nation has no problem stockpiling nukes yet simultaneously condemning other nations for getting or trying to get them? As for terrorists - terrorism grows in an environment of desperation. Extreme poverty, oppression, repression - sound like any countries you know? People with nothing left to lose? The causes of terrorism are not found, or solved, with bombs.

I hate nuclear weapons, ok? I wish NOBODY had them. But "Get them before they get us?" How retarded. This is what happens when people think this sort of behavior is acceptable: PEOPLE DIE.

It amazes me how many people only oppose the war on Iraq not because it's a pre-emptive war but because it's in IRAQ - as if it would be OK in some other country like North Korea or Iran or Syria or whatever. It isn't OK. Because everything eventually comes back to haunt you.

Quoteand as for your continued support of Kucinich, are you serious? would you really wanrt that man leading this country?

You know the answer to that one already.

QuoteI'm sure he's a nice guy who wants good things for people, but he's also a complete space-case...I'd love ot have him over for coffee and bonghits,

Why don't you do that then. Why don't you find an opportunity to talk to him and actually listen to him before you pass a judgement. He is no space-case. Just because some of his supporters are does not make him one....He is absolutely serious.

Quotebut I'd vote for Bush over Kucinich 10 out of 10 times...your other points may have some merit, but as soon as you mention blissed-out hippie boy, the credibility goes out the window...he's just not a realistic option.

Maybe to YOU. You and voters like you are the reason we have shitty candidates year after year. You vote against your own desire. You play it "safe." Hey, who's "electable?" What's "realistic?" What a stupid concept. Vote for whoever the fuck you WANT, not who's popular. Because it's always the assholes who win the popularity contests----but we vote for them ANYWAY. So then more assholes run for office thinking that's what the people want!

And since when are YOU the arbiter of MY credibility? I only got one thing to say to that:

listen, I don't know about you, but for now, I live in AMERICA, not Iran or North Korea...so yeah, it IS ok that we have nukes and will use force to keep other countries from acquiring them...I don't think "kill them before they kill us" is a good or desireable solution, but it might be the only VIABLE solution, and when it comes to them or me, there's no question that I'm going with "me"

and the fact that Kucinich is absolutely serious is what would keep me from voting for him...I'm sorry, but I can't in good conscience vote for a blissed-out hippie with a ludicrous and unworkable foreign-policy plan...I might even consider voting for him if he ran for Governor of my state, just because I percieve him as a reasonably honest man (for a politician) and because I think a handful of his domestic policy ideas made a modicum of sense, but like it or not, the world extends beyond our borders, and sacrificing realistic solutions for our problems in favor of naive idealism is not a solid course of action in my book. What would Kucinich do about Iran and North Korea? what would he do about the 30,000 unaccounted-for nuclear weapons left over from the good ol' days of the USSR?

8)

Quote from: Scytano

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Scytano

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Two words:  Armstrong Williams.

Five words: What difference does that make?

Okay.  You're trolling.  Or stupid.

I'm trying to follow your train of thought here. There is no disputing that when you weigh the media companies giving to right and left, the vast majority of that cash goes to the left... now, I'm not talking about "media bias", I'm saying that your Clear Channel comment is only of marginal importance. The right owns talk radio, no doubt about that, but the only have a foothold in television (Fox News), and are still WAY behind in print media... to say nothing of movies and music.

The Armstrong Williams case is an utter fiasco and both he and the administration should be ashamed and admonished for it. But WTF does that have to do with mass media? Perhaps you are trolling? A familiar trolling tactic is to continually change the subject so as to obfuscate your own inability to tackle the question at hand...

Well, I'd agree with you, if it were only Armstrong...but now two more have been caught in the last 3 days.

And donations?  Pfffft.  Two hours on Fox is worth $2,000,000 in donations, vote-wise.

Quote from: YthacthaPlease, roger, Im being serious. Is there any possible way to solve this problem with minimal suffering? Does anyone have any ideas that might work? I need answers, because this is just pulling me down.

Ythactha, we're destined to suffer. Suffering is the yardstick that makes ice cream and rollercoasters so great.

If they're pulling you down do what the rest of us do and smack them on the nose. Then go back to doing what you think is right.

And asking Roger for the key to happiness is just begging for trouble.

Quote from: agent compassion

Quote from: kittyscribe
Well thats the thing, isnt it? They wouldnt start this bullshit so much if there was a very real chance they would get hurt.

You hit that fucker right on the head. They don't HAVE to do the dirty work themselves - they just send someone else's kids to do it.

Maybe we should bring back dueling for world leaders and Cabinet members. No war, no "covert operations" - you gotta problem with Joe Prime Minister over there, you go tell him to his face, you meet at dawn, and settle it like gentlemen!

Ever read Tom Clancy? The "Ryan Doctrine" idea he introduced?  I liked that.  I liked it alot.  Of course it was alright for President Ryan to blow up countries, but still, if applied bothways, it has appeal.

Quote from: GOAT
listen, I don't know about you, but for now, I live in AMERICA, not Iran or North Korea...so yeah, it IS ok that we have nukes and will use force to keep other countries from acquiring them...I don't think "kill them before they kill us" is a good or desireable solution, but it might be the only VIABLE solution, and when it comes to them or me, there's no question that I'm going with "me"

I'm also a jingoistic freak with the morals of Roy Cohn, but that should not affect my credibility.

8)

Hell yeah!  Post editting is a hoot!

Quote from: Hoshiko

And asking Roger for the key to happiness is just begging for trouble.

Pure slander.

I am a regular Buddha.

QuoteThe Armstrong Williams case is an utter fiasco and both he and the administration should be ashamed and admonished for it. But WTF does that have to do with mass media?

Well, he was placed before the mass media to talk up the No Child Left Behind act. When you watch the news, you're thinking "Oh, here's some objective information about the world!" and instead you're getting "Predigested, vetted opinions and propaganda from X interest group or party!"

Who knows how many people on the news are in someone's pocket?

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoJesus people, slow down...

My poor dialup can't take it.  :P

Dial up?

Does your computer have wooden keys? :lol:

Hey, you leave my keyboard alone. It made it through the Civil War, I'll have you know!

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoJesus people, slow down...

My poor dialup can't take it.  :P

Dial up?

Does your computer have wooden keys? :lol:

Hey, you leave my keyboard alone. It made it through the Civil War, I'll have you know!

My computer is so old, I post using punch cards.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Well, the last guy to try it was Jesus.

And you saw what happened to HIM...and what they twisted his words into, later.

The answer, historically, is "no".

Yes, yes, and there were many others. Siddhartha Gautama (actually got somewhere but only in asia) and the bodhisattvas that followed after. The dali lama (got booted from his own country), Mahatmas Ghandi (was hated by the very people he loved, mainly the untouchables) and mother teresa (held back by the CC).

But I've got to do something. Something big. Something big that will be peaceful, but won't be seen as weak. Something strong, but humble. Something that would turn the eyes of the leaders of the world, but not because they can make a profit.

<...grasping at the air...>

Whats a computer?

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoJesus people, slow down...

My poor dialup can't take it.  :P

Dial up?

Does your computer have wooden keys? :lol:

Hey, you leave my keyboard alone. It made it through the Civil War, I'll have you know!

My computer is so old, I post using punch cards.

So we can blame most of your posts on pregnant or hanging chads?

Quote from: Hoshiko
I disagree, but that's nothing that either of us can really prove. I doubt Kerry would have made the same Supreme Court Appointment decisions, for example..

Well that hasn't happened yet. For all we know there might not even be any new appointments to the court during this term.

QuoteBingo. Now add in the fact that he's not really looking to ban gay marriage per se and we'll have a winner.

He wants to change the constitution solely for the purpose of denying rights to gay people. If you are going to deny rights there should be a good reason for it, and I can see none here.

QuoteWhat, you thought he was serious about all of that religious stuff? No, he never wanted a gay marriage ban himself, he wanted the voters that did. He catered to the ultra right but he himself has no personal agendas beyond making money for him and his friends.

I disagree. I think he really wants to "preserve marriage". Maybe he is really for civil unions, but I don't think the man is a liar... when he says he wants marriage to remain between a man and a woman I take his word for it.

QuoteHe's a party boy at heart playing the conservative, and playing it badly

Well, he's certainly not an economic conservative.

Quote from: Rog

Quote from: turdburglarI'm also a jingoistic freak with the morals of Roy Cohn, but that should not affect my credibility.

Hell yeah! Post editing is a hoot!

(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/laughing/yelrotflmao.gif)
\

Quote from: RogPure slander.

I am a regular Buddha.

No, you're an irregular Buddha. :)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: GOAT
listen, I don't know about you, but for now, I live in AMERICA, not Iran or North Korea...so yeah, it IS ok that we have nukes and will use force to keep other countries from acquiring them...I don't think "kill them before they kill us" is a good or desireable solution, but it might be the only VIABLE solution, and when it comes to them or me, there's no question that I'm going with "me"

I'm also a jingoistic freak with the morals of Roy Cohn, but that should not affect my credibility.

8)

Hell yeah!  Post editting is a hoot!

I'd be more likely to be properly insulted if I had any idea who Roy Cohn was...but if he has morals, you probably shouldn't compare him to me....

8)

Quote from: ScribeWhats a computer?

The spirit box that is showing you this.

If it stops working, just shake a few beads, and throw a little sand.

If that doesn't work, sacrifice your hamster.

Quote from: GOAT
I'd be more likely to be properly insulted if I had any idea who Roy Cohn was...

8)

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/wtf.gif)

QuoteWell, he's certainly not an economic conservative.

Maybe he just really likes canned fruit spreads?

8)

I mean, geez, I like fruit spread as much as anyone else, but I don't think it needs to be in the frickin' Constitution....

Quote from: Hoshiko

So we can blame most of your posts on pregnant or hanging chads?

Don't look at me.  *I* didn't get Chad pregnant.

Quote from: Ythactha

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Well, the last guy to try it was Jesus.

And you saw what happened to HIM...and what they twisted his words into, later.

The answer, historically, is "no".

Yes, yes, and there were many others. Siddhartha Gautama (actually got somewhere but only in asia) and the bodhisattvas that followed after. The dali lama (got booted from his own country), Mahatmas Ghandi (was hated by the very people he loved, mainly the untouchables) and mother teresa (held back by the CC).

But I've got to do something. Something big. Something big that will be peaceful, but won't be seen as weak. Something strong, but humble. Something that would turn the eyes of the leaders of the world, but not because they can make a profit.

<...grasping at the air...>

You lost me when you got to Mother Teresa. She was no saint, my friend. She used the dying and sick as cash cows for the Catholic Church and horded most of that away.

She herself said that her purpose was not to heal or give comfort, but to save the souls of those who were dying dirty and under-fed in her "hospitals". Many of those people could have been cured if she had actually used the money for that purpose.

Very few actually do good for good itself. Most have something to gain. Don't fall into that trap of thinking that you're any different.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: ScribeWhats a computer?

The spirit box that is showing you this.

If it stops working, just shake a few beads, and throw a little sand.

If that doesn't work, sacrifice your hamster.

Ah, I think I have a wind up version.  It sure as hell has that effect on me.

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteWell, he's certainly not an economic conservative.

Maybe he just really likes canned fruit spreads?

8)

I mean, geez, I like fruit spread as much as anyone else, but I don't think it needs to be in the frickin' Constitution....

He's for the fruit spread, however if you want to spread your fruit in queer ways you will have to buy civil cans.

Quote from: agent compassion

No, you're an irregular Buddha. :)

Guerrilla Buddhists!  RAH!

WE WILL MARCH ON A ROAD OF BONES!*




(* - No beef bones, please)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Hoshiko

So we can blame most of your posts on pregnant or hanging chads?

Don't look at me.  *I* didn't get Chad pregnant.

You'll say anything to get out of the child support, won't you?

Be careful, they give papercuts.

Quote from: HoshikoYou lost me when you got to Mother Teresa. She was no saint, my friend. She used the dying and sick as cash cows for the Catholic Church and horded most of that away.

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/wtf.gif)

Link, please.

*yawn*

all this mindless idealism tires me...

I'll come back tomorrow and see if anyone's got anything to say that has a shred of realism in it anywhere....

8)

Quote from: The Goodly and Smart Reverend Roger

Quote from: GOATTurd

Quote from: The Godly and Funny Reverend Roger

Quote from: GOATTurdA bunch of crap I am cutting to make this post readable

I haven't seen any deep thoughts out of you, Sparky.

More crap:See above

Do I give a fuck?  

Nope.

I think the opinion of one who does nothing but heckle people who try to be creative (such as Hugh), while doing fuck-all himself, will not cause me to lose any sleep.

You, sir, are no different than the average music critic.  No talent,  so you poke holes in the works of others.

:yawn:

Quote from: eldora_avalon

Quote from: GOATTurdCrap:see above

Pot calling the kettle black?  You post a whole lot of crap every day, so he's saves his crap until he's constipated and blows?  Big fucking deal :roll:

I do love Hugh's posts and I agree he is creative, but Rog, don't be surprised if they start saying you are me or vice versa or whatever.  You crack me up. :wink:  Keep up the good work and one day I want to know about the vaseline and boots, but not tonight.  I feel a sick headache coming on and that might put me over the edge.(http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/prank/puke2.gif)

Quote from: Scytano


He wants to change the constitution solely for the purpose of denying rights to gay people.

I disagree. I think he really wants to "preserve marriage". Maybe he is really for civil unions,

1.  I think we should change the constitution to deny rights to faux Texans.

2.  Separate but equal!  THAT will work! (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/banana.gif)

QuoteYou lost me when you got to Mother Teresa. She was no saint, my friend. She used the dying and sick as cash cows for the Catholic Church and horded most of that away.

She herself said that her purpose was not to heal or give comfort, but to save the souls of those who were dying dirty and under-fed in her "hospitals". Many of those people could have been cured if she had actually used the money for that purpose.

Very few actually do good for good itself. Most have something to gain. Don't fall into that trap of thinking that you're any different.

I had one wish, I would wish for the end of suffering for all things. And I would give up my essence to be destroyed for all eternity to accomplish that. I don't want anything for myself.

*crying*

Quote from: eldora_avalonKeep up the good work and one day I want to know about the vaseline and boots, but not tonight.  I feel a sick headache coming on and that might put me over the edge.(http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/prank/puke2.gif)

Actually, there's a pretty cool story behind that.

Another time, though.  There are conservatards among us.

Gandhi was hated by the untouchables because he protested their getting a separate electorate when the British showed up...he said they belonged to the Hindus. Since the Hindu system of caste was what made them "untouchable" in the first place, he was basically saying that they should stay where they were instead of finally having some legal standing of their own. He felt so strongly about this that he went on a hunger-strike until the proposal was cancelled.

Quote from: rummyloverHe's for the fruit spread, however if you want to spread your fruit in queer ways you will have to buy civil cans.

I spit on your civil cans! I buy my fruit only in queer heathen plastic JARS!

8)

Quote from: YthacthaI had one wish, I would wish for the end of suffering for all things.

Um, there's only ONE way to do that...

Quote from: YthacthaPlease, roger, Im being serious. Is there any possible way to solve this problem with minimal suffering? Does anyone have any ideas that might work? I need answers, because this is just pulling me down.

Making fun of morons helps me and since you are not a moron, you should try it.  Just pick one, we seem to have an abundance right now.

Quote from: Scytano
Well that hasn't happened yet. For all we know there might not even be any new appointments to the court during this term.

Agreed, but if he appoints anything but a conservative judge I'll eat my hat and call it Christmas.

Quote
He wants to change the constitution solely for the purpose of denying rights to gay people. If you are going to deny rights there should be a good reason for it, and I can see none here.

And who would be in a position to help him do that? Hmm, could it be those Judges he hasn't appointed yet?

QuoteI disagree. I think he really wants to "preserve marriage". Maybe he is really for civil unions, but I don't think the man is a liar... when he says he wants marriage to remain between a man and a woman I take his word for it.

There's been no proof that he's serious about doing that as of yet. So far, that war is being fought at a state level.

Quote
Well, he's certainly not an economic conservative.

Amen.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Scytano


He wants to change the constitution solely for the purpose of denying rights to gay people.

I disagree. I think he really wants to "preserve marriage". Maybe he is really for civil unions,

1.  I think we should change the constitution to deny rights to faux Texans.

2.  Separate but equal!  THAT will work! (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/banana.gif)

I think we should nuke Texas and California both and be done with it. 8)

Quote from: HoshikoJesus people, slow down...

My poor dialup can't take it.  :P

Don't feel bad, neither can my cable, the site keeps going down. :?  :(

Quote from: GOAT*yawn*

all this mindless idealism tires me...

I'll come back tomorrow and see if anyone's got anything to say that has a shred of realism in it anywhere....

8)

Don't hurry on our account.

Quote from: GOAT
I frequently have sex with small waterfowl, and let's just say that no gerbil is safe in my town.  
8)

We know, we know.

Quote from: Hoskiko
You lost me when you got to Mother Teresa. She was no saint, my friend. She used the dying and sick as cash cows for the Catholic Church and horded most of that away.

Quote from: Guerilla Buddha
Link, please.

There's a most excellent essay on Mother Teresa in the book "Love, Poverty and War" by Christopher Hitchens...he was involved in giving testimony during the beatification process, and testified that she did not deserve it.

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote from: Scytano
Well that hasn't happened yet. For all we know there might not even be any new appointments to the court during this term.

Agreed, but if he appoints anything but a conservative judge I'll eat my hat and call it Christmas.

I think that the only judges likely to retire are already conservatives, so no matter what the balance of the court is likely to be unaffected.*


*unless one dies, of course.

Quote from: agent compassion

Quote from: Hoskiko
You lost me when you got to Mother Teresa. She was no saint, my friend. She used the dying and sick as cash cows for the Catholic Church and horded most of that away.

Quote from: Guerilla Buddha
Link, please.

There's a most excellent essay on Mother Teresa in the book "Love, Poverty and War" by Christopher Hitchens...he was involved in giving testimony during the beatification process, and testified that she did not deserve it.

Um, you are relying on a single source?

Quote from: Scytano

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote from: Scytano
Well that hasn't happened yet. For all we know there might not even be any new appointments to the court during this term.

Agreed, but if he appoints anything but a conservative judge I'll eat my hat and call it Christmas.

I think that the only judges likely to retire are already conservatives, so no matter what the balance of the court is likely to be unaffected.*


*unless one dies, of course.

Not if Pat Robertson has his way.

"I want you all to pray with me that God strikes down the liberals on the supreme court."

No shit.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoYou lost me when you got to Mother Teresa. She was no saint, my friend. She used the dying and sick as cash cows for the Catholic Church and horded most of that away.

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/wtf.gif)

Link, please.

"The suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering," said Mother Teresa.

First link that came up via google. (http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/religion/india_and_mother_teresa.html)

There was a thread on the Straight Dope that shocked the hell out of me when I read it and has many, many cites and proof. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Quote from: HoshikoThere's been no proof that he's serious about doing that as of yet. So far, that war is being fought at a state level.

This is the incorrect religious fanatic.

The proposed FEDERAL amendment in question was struck down last August.  Bush was very vocal in supporting it.

Quote from: agent compassion

Quote from: Hoskiko
You lost me when you got to Mother Teresa. She was no saint, my friend. She used the dying and sick as cash cows for the Catholic Church and horded most of that away.

Quote from: Guerilla Buddha
Link, please.

There's a most excellent essay on Mother Teresa in the book "Love, Poverty and War" by Christopher Hitchens...he was involved in giving testimony during the beatification process, and testified that she did not deserve it.

Another link... http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083/

Quote2. Separate but equal! THAT will work!

(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/ed/laugh.gif)

Quote
Um, you are relying on a single source?

You only asked for one. :) If it's true I'm sure there are more sources out there, but I wanted you to have that one since it's a first-person account.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Not if Pat Robertson has his way.

"I want you all to pray with me that God strikes down the liberals on the supreme court."

No shit.

But Robertson is a blithering imbecile.

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoYou lost me when you got to Mother Teresa. She was no saint, my friend. She used the dying and sick as cash cows for the Catholic Church and horded most of that away.

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/wtf.gif)

Link, please.

"The suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering," said Mother Teresa.

First link that came up via google. (http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/religion/india_and_mother_teresa.html)

There was a thread on the Straight Dope that shocked the hell out of me when I read it and has many, many cites and proof. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Actually, I was looking for a news link, etc.  That site, rationalist international is long on the membership braglist, but short on the whole documentation thing.  I saw opinion, but not much supporting evidence.

I googled as well, and basically found similar links, plus a shitload of MT apologist links, but nothing hard.

So, then, is there no hope, nothing that can be done, just waiting until we are nothing but shell, no compassion, no humility, no understanding, just hate and greed and ignorance, where the world is cold and I won't care about the suffering of others? Is this what we are headed towards?

Quote from: Scytano

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Not if Pat Robertson has his way.

"I want you all to pray with me that God strikes down the liberals on the supreme court."

No shit.

But Robertson is a blithering imbecile.

He is also pretty tight with Bush, as is Jerry Falwell.

Nice crowd.

Quote from: YthacthaSo, then, is there no hope, nothing that can be done, just waiting until we are nothing but shell, no compassion, no humility, no understanding, just hate and greed and ignorance, where the world is cold and I won't care about the suffering of others? Is this what we are headed towards?

Yes.  Go to Switzerland instead.  Thats my back up plan in case it all goes bad here, in the UK.

QuoteHoshiko wrote:
There's been no proof that he's serious about doing that as of yet. So far, that war is being fought at a state level.

Quote from: RogerThis is the incorrect religious fanatic.

The proposed FEDERAL amendment in question was struck down last August. Bush was very vocal in supporting it.

Both are true. With the federal amendment gone(for now), states took up the charge. Eleven states passed laws banning gay marriage. More will surely try it in 2006. I don't doubt for a minute that the Senate or the House are going to try to revive the FMA first chance that they get, though....with Bush's approval all over it.
:thinks:
Now that he's no longer running for re-election, though, he might back off it, since it was a total ploy to get the panicky religious conservative voters on his side...

Quote from: YthacthaSo, then, is there no hope, nothing that can be done, just waiting until we are nothing but shell, no compassion, no humility, no understanding, just hate and greed and ignorance, where the world is cold and I won't care about the suffering of others? Is this what we are headed towards?

No.  That's where we ARE.

You can't save the world, because the world doesn't WANT to be saved...and even if it did, you'd still be screwed, because the problem isn't in the SITUATION, the problem is in our heads.

I'd suggest you check out Sermons 1-28 (especially 10-20), but they'd probably just make you feel worse.

QuoteThe Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice.

There's a book for ya Rog. Hitchens again. He seems to have spent a lot of time looking into her life.

And forgive me for suggesting that the greatest source of unbiased fact may not, after all, be the Internets.


8)

QuoteNo. That's where we ARE.

No, you are wrong. Because I still care. The thought of not caring scares me, but I still care. It is not here yet, but it is close. This is why I am so desperate.

Quote from: agent compassionAnd forgive me for suggesting that the greatest source of unbiased fact may not, after all, be the Internets.


8)

Great.  There goes my whole worldview! (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/enraged.gif)

QuoteQuote:
No. That's where we ARE.


No, you are wrong. Because I still care. The thought of not caring scares me, but I still care. It is not here yet, but it is close. This is why I am so desperate.

You're both right ok?

Rog is right - the world is a cold place, it's fucked up and frequently resists any effort for us to make it any better.
However, what we call "The World" is not just one giant loveless gestalt entity- it's PEOPLE, it's INDIVIDUALS - you CAN effect change in small ways at that level, and that's where Ythacta is right to care....because there's still small hope, that some things will get slightly better if you keep on caring.

Just not EVERYTHING.

But nobody laid the burden of saving EVERYTHING on any single one of us in the first place...

Quote from: Ythactha

QuoteNo. That's where we ARE.

No, you are wrong. Because I still care. The thought of not caring scares me, but I still care. It is not here yet, but it is close. This is why I am so desperate.

The Good Reverend predicts that you are in for one FUCK of a case of "third eye blowout" in about 2 years.

We Doktors have seen this many, many times.

YOU are a mutant.  You care.  This places you in the position that Jesus was in when he was surrounded by lepers, desperate for a cure.

But you aren't Jesus, and THESE lepers have steak knives.

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/enraged.gif)

Rog, where did you find that smiley? He's awesome.

[/quote]

Quote from: YthacthaSo, then, is there no hope, nothing that can be done, just waiting until we are nothing but shell, no compassion, no humility, no understanding, just hate and greed and ignorance, where the world is cold and I won't care about the suffering of others? Is this what we are headed towards?

Don't be melodramatic. Of course there's more. We've been going through the same problems since time began. Don't you think that if there were easy answers we'd have used them?

Luckily, the good traits of mankind have always existed in conjunction with the bad and it'd be pretty hard to stamp those out too.

Roger, I'm looking for your hard cites now. Keep yer panties on.

Thanks, AC, that helped alot. I needed to hear some one say that.

Just dont develop a Messiah complex.  Work at a small level and it may be better for you and thsoe around you.

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteQuote:
No. That's where we ARE.


No, you are wrong. Because I still care. The thought of not caring scares me, but I still care. It is not here yet, but it is close. This is why I am so desperate.

You're both right ok?

Rog is right - the world is a cold place, it's fucked up and frequently resists any effort for us to make it any better.
However, what we call "The World" is not just one giant loveless gestalt entity- it's PEOPLE, it's INDIVIDUALS -

NOPE.  99.99995% of people are NOT individuals.

For evidence, simply attend a Nascar event, or the church of your choice.

TGRR,
Knows we're doomed, and can't bring himself to offer meaningless platitudes.

Quote from: agent compassion(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/enraged.gif)

Rog, where did you find that smiley? He's awesome.

[/quote]

You don't want to know.

Trust me.  The site I get those from makes baby jebus cry. (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/sadbanana.gif)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
TGRR,
Knows we're doomed, and can't bring himself to offer meaningless platitudes.

Yes, you are pretty doomed, and I'm glad you can give it to yourself straight.

The rest of us on the other hand...

Quote from: ScytanoAgent Compassion--- I had a nice long reply that just got eaten... :x  In a nutshell I was disagreeing with the notion that only the rich benefitted from Bush's tax cuts, as I benefitted from them, and I am not rich. There are many people like me as well, and if Bush had screwed everyone so throughly he would not have gotten the votes he received. People heard that mantra from the left for months, looked at their own situation, and disagreed. Now, I am not about to argue that Bush has been good for the country on the whole, or that he didn't deserve to be cast out in 2004. My contention is that the other options simply weren't any better. I wish that wasn't true but that's the way it is.

I don't pay taxes, but I do know that this year, the cut my parents got from Bush was less than what NY raised their state taxes by, because the economy's been totally fucked.

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
TGRR,
Knows we're doomed, and can't bring himself to offer meaningless platitudes.

Yes, you are pretty doomed, and I'm glad you can give it to yourself straight.

The rest of us on the other hand...

...simply haven't realized that the still waters and quite meadows that you lie on are actually clattering conveyors leading to the whirling blades.

QuoteNOPE. 99.99995% of people are NOT individuals.

Appearances can be deceiving. Rog. Many "sheep" have some glimmer of intelligence underneath the wool, and some capacity for independent thought. And many "smart people" are really just mean people with big vocabularies.

And not all countries indoctrinate their citizens into drooling complacency to the extent that this one has.

There are more individuals out there than we know. But we have to care enough to look around and find them.

Quote...simply haven't realized that the still waters and quite meadows that you lie on are actually clattering conveyors leading to the whirling blades.

What still waters and quiet meadows? Damn, where do I get some of those?

And some of us prefer the whirling blades. Keeps things exciting.

Quote
You don't want to know.

Trust me. The site I get those from makes baby jebus cry.

:right clickity::properties:

Ooh, FuckedCompany.com! Hehehehee....

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteNOPE. 99.99995% of people are NOT individuals.

Appearances can be deceiving. Rog. Many "sheep" have some glimmer of intelligence underneath the wool, and some capacity for independent thought.

If they don't USE it, what difference does it make?

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote...simply haven't realized that the still waters and quite meadows that you lie on are actually clattering conveyors leading to the whirling blades.

What still waters and quiet meadows? Damn, where do I get some of those?

Here:  http://foxnews.com

Quote from: agent compassion

Quote
You don't want to know.

Trust me. The site I get those from makes baby jebus cry.

:right clickity::properties:

Ooh, FuckedCompany.com! Hehehehee....

You REALLY don't want to click.

TGRR,
Will always be able to say he warned you.

Quote
If they don't USE it, what difference does it make?

That's why you gotta FIND them first - and show them what they're capable of if they just wake the fuck up and start using it!

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote...simply haven't realized that the still waters and quite meadows that you lie on are actually clattering conveyors leading to the whirling blades.

What still waters and quiet meadows? Damn, where do I get some of those?

Here:  http://foxnews.com

A site I can say I rarely visit, with some relief.

I listen to Sean Hannity every day.

Keeps the blood flowing.

No quiet meadows there for this sheep...

Quote from: agent compassion

Quote
If they don't USE it, what difference does it make?

That's why you gotta FIND them first - and show them what they're capable of if they just wake the fuck up and start using it!

Ah...you are an Ivangelical.

That explains it.

I, however, am a dyed in the wool holocaustal.

Normals see a half full glass.

You see a half empty glass.

I see a glass that's prolly contaminated with dioxin...IF I'm LUCKY.

Quote from: HoshikoI listen to Sean Hannity every day.

Keeps the blood flowing.

No quiet meadows there for this sheep...

I can't listen to that twerp, nor Limbaugh.

You've heard one sycophantic neocon, you've heard them all.

QuoteAh...you are an Ivangelical.

That explains it.

I'mawhatnow?

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteAh...you are an Ivangelical.

That explains it.

I'mawhatnow?

Subgenius terminology.

Ivangelical:  Believes that the humans should be saved and/or are capable of rehabilitation into sapient beings.

Holocaustal:  Believes that humans are, for the most part, irredeemable, and are useful for entertainment purposes only.

Most holocaustals start out as Ivangelicals.  I know I did.  Chances are, one day, you'll be just as cynical as I.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoI listen to Sean Hannity every day.

Keeps the blood flowing.

No quiet meadows there for this sheep...

I can't listen to that twerp, nor Limbaugh.

You've heard one sycophantic neocon, you've heard them all.

I know, but sometimes he has Ollie North on.

Pisses me right the hell off, like a tonic.

Better than Mark Levin or Laura Ingraham. I'd like to give them your sainted glass of dioxin.

QuoteChances are, one day, you'll be just as cynical as I.

I'll take that bet! She'd need many lifetimes to reach that achievment.  :wink:

Oh, I see.

I think I'm a little of both, because there are times I get so fed up with people in this country and want to move to Canada, and then I think to myself "What, and there's no morons in Canada?"

I don't think ALL people can be rehabilitated. Some are happy little morons and some are defensive little morons who would rehabilitate you with a tire iron before they'd hear you out - but I think we shouldn't give up on the ones who CAN be rehabilitated....not just yet...

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoI listen to Sean Hannity every day.

Keeps the blood flowing.

No quiet meadows there for this sheep...

I can't listen to that twerp, nor Limbaugh.

You've heard one sycophantic neocon, you've heard them all.

I know, but sometimes he has Ollie North on.

Pisses me right the hell off, like a tonic.

Better than Mark Levin or Laura Ingraham. I'd like to give them your sainted glass of dioxin.

Ollie North?  That POS belongs in Fort Leavenworth.

Ollie North of "Iran-Contra" infamy?

Quote from: agent compassionOh, I see.

I think I'm a little of both, because there are times I get so fed up with people in this country and want to move to Canada, and then I think to myself "What, and there's no morons in Canada?"

I don't think ALL people can be rehabilitated. Some are happy little morons and some are defensive little morons who would rehabilitate you with a tire iron before they'd hear you out - but I think we shouldn't give up on the ones who CAN be rehabilitated....not just yet...

They have access to the same resouces we had/have.  Let them save themselves.

We did.

QuoteMost holocaustals start out as Ivangelicals. I know I did. Chances are, one day, you'll be just as cynical as I.

That is the day my soul leaves my body.

Quote from: ScribeOllie North of "Iran-Contra" infamy?

Yep.  Mister "I shit on my oath, the constitution, and my uniform...but I did it for the GIPPER!"

Quote from: Ythactha

QuoteMost holocaustals start out as Ivangelicals. I know I did. Chances are, one day, you'll be just as cynical as I.

That is the day my soul leaves my body.

Yeah.

I keep mine in a little jar, under the stairs.  Right next to my conscience.

Yes, but Sean's cleaned him up and turned him into a Ruth's Chris steakhouse mouthpiece.

"You're a great american."

"No silly, you're a great American!"

"Noooo, it's you! You're the great American!"

They need to get a room.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: ScribeOllie North of "Iran-Contra" infamy?

Yep.  Mister "I shit on my oath, the constitution, and my uniform...but I did it for the GIPPER!"

What an arsehole, the both of them in fact.  If you're going to do that sort of thing, Rule #1 is try not to get caught.  Rule #2 is dont appear all over the place afterwards.

Love is like a skiddoo
Hurtling across the tundra
then it flips over
At night, the ice weasels come.

Quote from: Ythactha

QuoteMost holocaustals start out as Ivangelicals. I know I did. Chances are, one day, you'll be just as cynical as I.

That is the day my soul leaves my body.

It's pretty easy to crash from Naive Idealist to Cynic. I did it once, and I've climbed back up to somewhere near the idealist again. Somewhere in between is probably best, but who the hell knows. Any day I can keep myself from dousing myself in gasoline and lighting a match in a public place like those Buddhisa monks did during Vietnam is a good day.

Now how many people will have posted before I could? [edit] 5. More than I thought possible. I'm sure there's something profound there, or something completely inane[/edit]

Quote from: HoshikoYes, but Sean's cleaned him up and turned him into a Ruth's Chris steakhouse mouthpiece.

"You're a great american."

"No silly, you're a great American!"

"Noooo, it's you! You're the great American!"

They need to get a room.

I can think of a good room for them. :twisted:

Quote from: Sinner Bob the Mediocre

Quote from: Ythactha

QuoteMost holocaustals start out as Ivangelicals. I know I did. Chances are, one day, you'll be just as cynical as I.

That is the day my soul leaves my body.

It's pretty easy to crash from Naive Idealist to Cynic. I did it once, and I've climbed back up to somewhere near the idealist again.

That sounds like work.

QuoteThey have access to the same resouces we had/have. Let them save themselves.

We did

Ahh, but what if we ARE the resources? We were all woken up by someone else.

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteThey have access to the same resouces we had/have. Let them save themselves.

We did

Ahh, but what if we ARE the resources? We were all woken up by someone else.

Not me.  I woke up on my own, traumatically.  This ain't the matrix.

This is why you are an Ivangelical.  You are willing to waste your precious time on this earth trying to save the morons.

I, on the other hand, get a real kick out of them, and occasionally poke them through the bars.

What's really great is when he has both Ollie and his infamous "Carpet Kitten" on and they all three have painfully obvious radio sex.

His wife gets all pissed too, but what's she gonna do? It's Ollie North.

Quote from: HoshikoWhat's really great is when he has both Ollie and his infamous "Carpet Kitten" on and they all three have painfully obvious radio sex.

His wife gets all pissed too, but what's she gonna do? It's Ollie North.

Hot GAY radio sex?

I kind of stand with Bob on this, probably closer to Rog though.  I was an out and out cynic once.  Then, I had a faint glimmering of idealistic hope, which grew, but kind of faltered along the way.

So here I am, stuck in the middle.  Which is boring.  No interesting people are ever at the middle.

QuoteYou are willing to waste your precious time on this earth trying to save the morons.

I, on the other hand, get a real kick out of them, and occasionally poke them through the bars.

Can't we do both?

You'll pry my liberal discordian bar-poking meddling when you pry it from my cold, dead hoof.

QuoteIt's pretty easy to crash from Naive Idealist to Cynic. I did it once, and I've climbed back up to somewhere near the idealist again. Somewhere in between is probably best, but who the hell knows. Any day I can keep myself from dousing myself in gasoline and lighting a match in a public place like those Buddhisa monks did during Vietnam is a good day.

Ive fallen so many time I have lost count. Every time I work my way back up again I fall back. But this time has been different. And I have decided I won't fall again. Or I will have become what I oppose.

QuoteNot me. I woke up on my own, traumatically. This ain't the matrix.

This is why you are an Ivangelical. You are willing to waste your precious time on this earth trying to save the morons.

I, on the other hand, get a real kick out of them, and occasionally poke them through the bars.
_________________

My awakenings were pretty traumatic, too.

I'll revise what I said before - most people need a little help getting there. But someone had to wake up without help so that they could be a good example for the others.

Save what you can, and pee on the rest. :)

Call me whatever you want, I'm just not content without some kind of cause to worry over, I guess.

8)

It's been fabulous, but now I need to cook dinner....Iranian food is not an instant affair...

Quote from: Ythactha

QuoteIt's pretty easy to crash from Naive Idealist to Cynic. I did it once, and I've climbed back up to somewhere near the idealist again. Somewhere in between is probably best, but who the hell knows. Any day I can keep myself from dousing myself in gasoline and lighting a match in a public place like those Buddhisa monks did during Vietnam is a good day.

Ive fallen so many time I have lost count. Every time I work my way back up again I fall back. But this time has been different. And I have decided I won't fall again. Or I will have become what I oppose.

BIG hint: Don't say that until you actually, you know, do it.

I like idealism, but you gotta be smart, kid.

Quote from: Ythactha

QuoteIt's pretty easy to crash from Naive Idealist to Cynic. I did it once, and I've climbed back up to somewhere near the idealist again. Somewhere in between is probably best, but who the hell knows. Any day I can keep myself from dousing myself in gasoline and lighting a match in a public place like those Buddhisa monks did during Vietnam is a good day.

Ive fallen so many time I have lost count. Every time I work my way back up again I fall back. But this time has been different. And I have decided I won't fall again. Or I will have become what I oppose.

True dat.  The REALLY evil bastards in this world are usually rogue subgenii/discordians who "went to the dark side".  Or so I hear.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoWhat's really great is when he has both Ollie and his infamous "Carpet Kitten" on and they all three have painfully obvious radio sex.

His wife gets all pissed too, but what's she gonna do? It's Ollie North.

Hot GAY radio sex?

You don't understand; it's ok because they're doing it for their country. With "war heros."

What a bunch of great Americans.

Quote from: Hoshiko

QuoteYou are willing to waste your precious time on this earth trying to save the morons.

I, on the other hand, get a real kick out of them, and occasionally poke them through the bars.

Can't we do both?

You'll pry my liberal discordian bar-poking meddling when you pry it from my cold, dead hoof.

Hint:  It's even better to not get caught/killed.

The only advantage we have over the merehumes is that we can see the cages.  Use that advantage.

Up and down, round and round, today you're in tears, tomorrow a clown.

Hail Eris!

Quote from: Hoshiko

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: HoshikoWhat's really great is when he has both Ollie and his infamous "Carpet Kitten" on and they all three have painfully obvious radio sex.

His wife gets all pissed too, but what's she gonna do? It's Ollie North.

Hot GAY radio sex?

You don't understand; it's ok because they're doing it for their country. With "war heros."

What a bunch of great Americans.

Why do yuo hate Fat City(tm)?

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerTrue dat.  The REALLY evil bastards in this world are usually rogue subgenii/discordians who "went to the dark side".  Or so I hear.

Wouldnt suprise me in the slightest.  I wonder if anyone else has mentioned that before?

Quote from: agent compassionI'll revise what I said before - most people need a little help getting there. But someone had to wake up without help so that they could be a good example for the others.

If one can do it, all can.

Quote from: Scribe

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerTrue dat.  The REALLY evil bastards in this world are usually rogue subgenii/discordians who "went to the dark side".  Or so I hear.

Wouldnt suprise me in the slightest.  I wonder if anyone else has mentioned that before?

Yep.

The destination is just as important as the means of traveling to it, Rog.

And the biggest, loudest conservative was once a liberal.

Doesn't mean I'm re-aligning anytime soon though.... :twisted:

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Hoshiko

QuoteYou are willing to waste your precious time on this earth trying to save the morons.

I, on the other hand, get a real kick out of them, and occasionally poke them through the bars.

Can't we do both?

You'll pry my liberal discordian bar-poking meddling when you pry it from my cold, dead hoof.

Hint:  It's even better to not get caught/killed.

The only advantage we have over the merehumes is that we can see the cages.  Use that advantage.

Not all of them we can't. Don't fall into that trap either.

They will always be smarter than you, and only the truly stupid are blessed with clear sight.

Or some other claptrap.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Scribe

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerTrue dat.  The REALLY evil bastards in this world are usually rogue subgenii/discordians who "went to the dark side".  Or so I hear.

Wouldnt suprise me in the slightest.  I wonder if anyone else has mentioned that before?

Yep.

Where would that be?  I may as well have a look, since I cant sleep tonight.

Quote from: agent compassionThe destination is just as important as the means of traveling to it, Rog.

And the biggest, loudest conservative was once a liberal.

Doesn't mean I'm re-aligning anytime soon though.... :twisted:

1.  If you say so.

2.  Reagan, obviously.

3.  Sure.  That's what they ALL say...:)

Quote from: Scribe

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Scribe

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerTrue dat.  The REALLY evil bastards in this world are usually rogue subgenii/discordians who "went to the dark side".  Or so I hear.

Wouldnt suprise me in the slightest.  I wonder if anyone else has mentioned that before?

Yep.

Where would that be?  I may as well have a look, since I cant sleep tonight.

http://subgenius.com

HUGE site.  Go to visceral and/or holy texts, enjoy.

I am what I am, I do not change to fit labels, I change the labels to fit ME.

And now, since my attempts at forcing eggplant to cook itself have failed miserably, I really do have to leave.

Cheers, will do. :)

Mmmm, eggplant.

Food of idealists.

Enjoy  :P

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: YthacthaI'm just getting real tired of all of this "lesser of two evils" bullshit. I want to do something about it. But I don't know where to start and Im impatient. Maybe I'll just move to a monestary...

Well, you can't go wrong with a Mannlicher-Carcano...

TGRR,
Is DEFINITELY going to Gitmo, now.:lol:

those things are ok if you don't have a giant tree in your way and you scored decently on the target shooting test for the military. like the guy on the knoll.

otherwise stay away from any windows above the first floor when the presidents in town... stupid oswald.

Quote from: ScribeCheers, will do. :)

Start here:  http://subgenius.com/bigfist/classic/classic.html

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: ScribeCheers, will do. :)

Start here:  http://subgenius.com/bigfist/classic/classic.html

Funnily enough, I had just got to that page!

Quote from: ChaosGraves:AgentOfEris

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: YthacthaI'm just getting real tired of all of this "lesser of two evils" bullshit. I want to do something about it. But I don't know where to start and Im impatient. Maybe I'll just move to a monestary...

Well, you can't go wrong with a Mannlicher-Carcano...

TGRR,
Is DEFINITELY going to Gitmo, now.:lol:

those things are ok if you don't have a giant tree in your way and you scored decently on the target shooting test for the military. like the guy on the knoll.

otherwise stay away from any windows above the first floor when the presidents in town... stupid oswald.

ONE of the Oswalds acted alone.

Quote from: Ythactha

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Well, the last guy to try it was Jesus.

And you saw what happened to HIM...and what they twisted his words into, later.

The answer, historically, is "no".

Yes, yes, and there were many others. Siddhartha Gautama (actually got somewhere but only in asia) and the bodhisattvas that followed after. The dali lama (got booted from his own country), Mahatmas Ghandi (was hated by the very people he loved, mainly the untouchables) and mother teresa (held back by the CC).

But I've got to do something. Something big. Something big that will be peaceful, but won't be seen as weak. Something strong, but humble. Something that would turn the eyes of the leaders of the world, but not because they can make a profit.

<...grasping at the air...>

fuck that If I can come uo with something that will push for more peace int he world your damn right I'm going to present it so that those with the cash flow will make a profit... I want my idea to work don't I?!?!?

Quote from: YthacthaSo, then, is there no hope, nothing that can be done, just waiting until we are nothing but shell, no compassion, no humility, no understanding, just hate and greed and ignorance, where the world is cold and I won't care about the suffering of others? Is this what we are headed towards?

Greeds the one on that list I'm glad exists... it's easy to manipulate those assholes if you show them how their profit margin will go up.

Quote from: Ythactha

QuoteNo. That's where we ARE.

No, you are wrong. Because I still care. The thought of not caring scares me, but I still care. It is not here yet, but it is close. This is why I am so desperate.

care all you want... but while you do don't discout viable alternatives... use the greed. thats the weak link.

I'd like to craft Luciferian Ceremonial Magick tools from the bones of George W. Bush's broken rib cage.

Why align yourself with a political party when you can align yourself with the state of Wisconsin...?

Quote from: Sinner Bob the Mediocre

Quote from: ScytanoAgent Compassion--- I had a nice long reply that just got eaten... :x  In a nutshell I was disagreeing with the notion that only the rich benefitted from Bush's tax cuts, as I benefitted from them, and I am not rich. There are many people like me as well, and if Bush had screwed everyone so throughly he would not have gotten the votes he received. People heard that mantra from the left for months, looked at their own situation, and disagreed. Now, I am not about to argue that Bush has been good for the country on the whole, or that he didn't deserve to be cast out in 2004. My contention is that the other options simply weren't any better. I wish that wasn't true but that's the way it is.

I don't pay taxes, but I do know that this year, the cut my parents got from Bush was less than what NY raised their state taxes by, because the economy's been totally fucked.

I know this happened to people, but not to me (I live in Louisiana) nor my mother (who lives in North Carolina). The economy in my area is booming.

QuoteI know this happened to people, but not to me (I live in Louisiana) nor my mother (who lives in North Carolina). The economy in my area is booming.

See, that's the conservative mentality right there, in a nutshell - "If it doesn't happen to me, it's not actually a problem."

I'm in a state that's been seeing high unemployment for the past 5 years, it's even hard to get TEMP jobs. So I'm not a fan of his tax cuts that don't reach down to the level where they would actually benefit a truly poor person.

This is a post from another board I'm on...thought it was interesting. Turd/Commie/Goat/Bastard, feel free to ignore and/or dis this one, since it was written by a Kucinich supporter. ;)

Quote from: Mike BerstOn another board a Republican is arguing in favor of utility companies denying people power or water based on their "credit history" and preaching the usual "self reliance" and "personal responsibility" stuff.

Finally, after he made 10 provocative taunting liberal-bashing posts, I saw an opportunity to define what liberalism means and to un-hijack the thread.
the guy had this to say:
By the way, how many people to you work for free for?


And I responded:

I can't speak for any one else, but this question is so provocative that I felt compelled to answer.

I am a performer. How many people have I worked for without pay? Thousands. Gladly. Thankfully. Cheerfully.

When the Republicans gutted the state budgets and destroyed the arts councils around the country in the 90's, one valuable type of program hit the chopping block - music for the elderly warehoused in various facilities. After giving up on the Democratic politicians to fight this, I went ahead and started working the nursing homes on my own. The need is so great that I was soon working dozens of places every month. After being in hundreds of facilities, 3-4 hours at a time at all hours and all days of the week for years I can still count on two hands the number of times I saw family visiting. These people are forgotten and abandoned.

Another group for whom I play for free - involuntarily - is wealthy Republicans who stiff me for the check, figuring correctly that their lawyer is bigger than mine.

Another group for whom I offer to play for free is poor urban parishes and churches - "Mike, we are having our Wednesday spaghetti dinner, and people really love your music. I know we probably can't afford you......" to which I reply, "Ed, I will be there. Don't say another word." Even though I offer to do those for free, invariably "Ed" or "Mabel" or "Gloria" takes up a collection and stuffs an envelope in my pocket as I am leaving. Those envelopes sometimes contain hundreds of dollars.

The cash in those envelopes allows me to not stress out too much over the way the wealthy Republicans, corporations and music industry sharks treat me and other artists, and allows me to continue to help the forgotten and neglected. Welfare for the wealthy is what it is really. Those who can least afford it are holding the society together so that a handful of arrogant and self-serving people can strut around and bully the rest of us.

That is the real world that I live in and there is much joy and meaning there. I feel very fortunate and I am grateful.

Tell me about the world that you live in that led you to make your statements.

I am flying somewhat blind here, as your posts are provocative but your points not very clearly presented. I strongly suspect that the reason that you imply what you are thinking without honestly and forthrightly stating your positions is a matter of debate tactics. Since we don't know where you stand except by implication, I will answer a fictitious "Mr. Generic Republican" and you can chose whether or not anything I have to say applies to you. That seems fair.

I am no saint. I do a little, but not much, and I get so much in return. I know many eldercare workers, and they are the real saints in my book. I know many of them who struggle to maintain their electricity and other basic utilities, yet who do not qualify for any kind of assistance. Nor would I wish to see them endure the humiliation of asking for assistance. They are among those whom Mr. Generic Republican is advocating throwing to the wolves.

Now, Mr. Generic Republican likes to talk about "self-reliance" and prides himself on his accomplishments and claims that no one is having any trouble except that for which they themselves are to blame.

The value of the nursing home example, is this - someday Mr. Generic Republican will be crippled up, perhaps drooling and incontinent, and in need of care. He will probably be lonely and frightened. When that day comes, all of his achievements, all of his tough guy "realist" posturing, will amount to nothing. It won't matter how frugal he was nor how clever he was with his investments. There is an entire de-regulated "free market" nursing home industry that is set up for the express purpose of parting him from his assets, and playing on his relatives emotions to gain their compliance with the scam. The first question your relatives will be asked is "how much has he got?" so they can "tailor" your care to your resources. If I were he I would pray that I were flat broke at that point, since only the most dedicated and caring people work in the hell holes where the unfortunate elderly live, and Mr. Generic Republican will be much more concerned about the compassion of the person changing his diapers than he will be with how fancy the landscaping or interior decoration of the facility is, nor how drugged he is. This is because the more expensive nursing homes spend the money on making the joint "look nice" for the sake of his relatives and on drugging him so that he seems "happy" or is at least manageable. The poor houses struggle to buy toilet paper, but they attract saints as workers - those who go where they are needed most.

Speaking of landscaping, there are nursing homes everywhere, but they are landscaped in such a way that you probably drive by dozens of them all the time without noticing them. This is all part of the "out of sight out of mind" attitude that we have towards an increasing number of our citizens. All of us will be anonymous, alone and frightened some day, so there is no "us" and "them" - we are them.

Mr. Generic Republican preached "self-reliance, by God!" all his life to all of his friends and relatives. That is why his friends and relatives will be less likely to be visiting him in the nursing home, and more likely to have him declared incompetent so they can more quickly run through his savings to keep him out of sight and to ease any guilt they may feel. Some of them may even have a hostile thought or two pass through their minds - "the bastard always said stand on your own two feet when we needed help. Let's see him stand on his own two feet now!"

But someone will care. That someone wiping the shit off of Mr. Generic Republican's legs and showing him gentleness and compassion when he needs it most - when it means more to him than anything he ever achieved in his life - will probably be a lib'rul. That someone will probably be a person living on poverty wages, unable to unionize, working without benefits - all part of the "free market" and "personal responsibility" ideas that Mr. Generic Republican trumpeted his whole life. They may well have "bad credit histories" from struggling for years to make rent, keep a car running, pay utilities and meet emergencies.

That is the bad news for Mr. Generic Republican. Here is the good news. Everything that Mr. Generic Republican needs to know about society, community, relationships, government, and liberalism is contained in this story. It is the most valuable thing I could give him now - until the day comes when the simple act of taking his hand in mine will get him through one more pain-wracked day of despair and terror.

I give this valuable life-saving gift to Mr. Generic Republican completely free of charge, regardless of his credit history. He earned it by virtue of his being a fellow human being. Recognition of that truth - and attempting to honor it - is what is meant by people when they say "I am a liberal."

Quote from: HoshikoMmmm, eggplant.

Food of idealists.

Enjoy

Ye want the recipe? :)

A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN
---------------------------------------------------
------------------------------

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with
water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good
because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality
standards.

With his first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily medication.
His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal
fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical
plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid
medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs.
Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for
laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo.
His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its
amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for
his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it
contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep
breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko
liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to
work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees
because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public
transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with
excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation
because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these
working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's
employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the
job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or
unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should
lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit
so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the
FDIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from
unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great
Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten
mortgage and his below-market
federal student loan because some elitist liberal
decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was
educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father
this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for
the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some
America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his
boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed
by
Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make
rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government
liberal stuck
his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired.
His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some
wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care
of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns
on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals
are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that
the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit
Joe enjoys throughout his day.

Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives!
After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of
themselves, just like I have."

Quote from: agent compassion

I'm in a state that's been seeing high unemployment for the past 5 years, it's even hard to get TEMP jobs. So I'm not a fan of his tax cuts that don't reach down to the level where they would actually benefit a truly poor person.

So no one should get tax cuts, because they didn't help your state? Because your state chose to raise taxes?

That's the left-wing philosophy in a nutshell folks. Everyone must suffer lest someone else be better off than another.

Quote from: Scytano

Quote from: agent compassion

I'm in a state that's been seeing high unemployment for the past 5 years, it's even hard to get TEMP jobs. So I'm not a fan of his tax cuts that don't reach down to the level where they would actually benefit a truly poor person.

So no one should get tax cuts, because they didn't help your state? Because your state chose to raise taxes?

That's the left-wing philosophy in a nutshell folks. Everyone must suffer lest someone else be better off than another.

:lol:

Let's take a look at the right-wing philosophy:

Story #1 (2001):  "Tax cuts will actually INCREASE revenue."

Story #2 (2004):  "Deficits don't matter".

Story #3 (2006):  "We welcome our Chinese overlords."

Quote from: TGRRStory #3 (2006): "We welcome our Chinese overlords."

:lol:

QuoteSo no one should get tax cuts, because they didn't help your state? Because your state chose to raise taxes?

That's the left-wing philosophy in a nutshell folks. Everyone must suffer lest someone else be better off than another.

That is not what I said....what I'm saying is that *this particular tax cut plan* isn't worth applauding because it doesn't help a lot of people who, frankly, could use it. Not just in my state.  Besides, this decision was made at the federal level, so it has impact in all 50 states.

Sometimes a tax cut IS a good thing to do - however, like someone else on this board said earlier, you're also supposed to LOWER SPENDING when you cut taxes, because taxes = revenue, after all. He's spending us into a very deep hole while cutting taxes for people who have the most revenue to contribute....does that make sense to you? Would you refuse a paycheck from your employer and then go buy a new car? I don't think so.

And you got the left-wing philosophy completely inside out. A true liberal does not want everyone to suffer equally - we just don't want one group to get all the benefits AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.

There's no reason why one person needs 5 houses and another must sleep in an alley. Somewhere in the middle is what we're aiming for.  The current economic system REQUIRES a certain amount of poverty and unemployment in order for it to grow - that needs to change. With all our resources, nobody should be homeless, but the system's lopsided to favor those who already have a fair chunk of resources, so they keep accumulating and accumulating and those with less keep losing and losing. It's imbalanced.

Quote from: RogerA DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN (snip)

RAH! 8)

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteSo no one should get tax cuts, because they didn't help your state? Because your state chose to raise taxes?

That's the left-wing philosophy in a nutshell folks. Everyone must suffer lest someone else be better off than another.

That is not what I said....what I'm saying is that *this particular tax cut plan* isn't worth applauding because it doesn't help a lot of people who, frankly, could use it. Not just in my state.  Besides, this decision was made at the federal level, so it has impact in all 50 states.

Sometimes a tax cut IS a good thing to do - however, like someone else on this board said earlier, you're also supposed to LOWER SPENDING when you cut taxes, because taxes = revenue, after all. He's spending us into a very deep hole while cutting taxes for people who have the most revenue to contribute....does that make sense to you? Would you refuse a paycheck from your employer and then go buy a new car? I don't think so.

And you got the left-wing philosophy completely inside out. A true liberal does not want everyone to suffer equally - we just don't want one group to get all the benefits AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.

There's no reason why one person needs 5 houses and another must sleep in an alley. Somewhere in the middle is what we're aiming for.  The current economic system REQUIRES a certain amount of poverty and unemployment in order for it to grow - that needs to change. With all our resources, nobody should be homeless, but the system's lopsided to favor those who already have a fair chunk of resources, so they keep accumulating and accumulating and those with less keep losing and losing. It's imbalanced.

Bush has NEVER vetoed a spending bill.

He HAS, however, cut taxes.

He's governing like a frat-boi with daddy's American Express.

Quote from: agent compassion

Quote from: RogerA DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN (snip)

RAH! 8)

I thought you'd like that one.  Listening to RWNs jabber about self reliance always makes me giggle.

Quote from: agent compassionThe current economic system REQUIRES a certain amount of poverty and unemployment in order for it to grow

Over 5% unemployment to ensure comptetition for jobs and stave off inflation is what I hear.  I cant remember the precise source but I'll look it up.

Quote from: Scribe

Quote from: agent compassionThe current economic system REQUIRES a certain amount of poverty and unemployment in order for it to grow

Over 5% unemployment to ensure comptetition for jobs and stave off inflation is what I hear.  I cant remember the precise source but I'll look it up.

Naw.  Unemployment is desirable in this context because then employees will work for peanuts.

Sam Walton should be dug up and buggered.

Quote from: RogSam Walton should be dug up and buggered.

::passes Rog the shovel::

Quote from: agent compassion

Quote from: RogSam Walton should be dug up and buggered.

::passes Rog the shovel::

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/hump.gif)

Quote from: agent compassionThis is a post from another board I'm on...thought it was interesting. Turd/Commie/Goat/Bastard, feel free to ignore and/or dis this one, since it was written by a Kucinich supporter. ;)

Quote from: Mike Berstblah blah blah...various thought-provoking and reasonably intelligent musings....blah blah blah

you allow your passion for your boy to cloud your mind, dear AgComp...I nver said I didn't like Kucinich, I never said I didn't think he was a good politician, I never said he was anything other than a decent human being, I just said that I didn't think he was an appropriate choice for President. Congressman, Senator, hell, even Governor....fine, he seems like a reasonable man who has some good ideas, and if one or two of them turned out to be realistically implementable, that'd be great...I just don't think he'd be the guy I'd want as the face of our entire country in the world arena...I think he'd be great in a position where domestic policy was his sole concern, but his ideas on foreign policy scare the shit outta me....that's all, and if I offended you making that argument last night, well, I apologize for the vitriolic nature of my words (I get like that sometimes, particularly on zero sleep for the week and a bad hangover and no hot water at my apartment, forgive me my crankiness), but I stand by my opinions...instead of hating, y'oughtta just agree to disagree...

8)

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Scribe

Quote from: agent compassionThe current economic system REQUIRES a certain amount of poverty and unemployment in order for it to grow

Over 5% unemployment to ensure comptetition for jobs and stave off inflation is what I hear.  I cant remember the precise source but I'll look it up.

Naw.  Unemployment is desirable in this context because then employees will work for peanuts.

Thats "competition for jobs" Rog. :roll:  :lol:

Quote from: GOAT

Quote from: agent compassionThis is a post from another board I'm on...thought it was interesting. Turd/Commie/Goat/Bastard, feel free to ignore and/or dis this one, since it was written by a Kucinich supporter. ;)

Quote from: Mike Berstblah blah blah...various thought-provoking and reasonably intelligent musings....blah blah blah

you allow your passion for your boy to cloud your mind, dear AgComp...I nver said I didn't like sodomizing sheep and various other farm animals.  I secretly yearn for Henry Kissinger's virile attentions! 8)

RAH!

Quote from: Scribe

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Scribe

Quote from: agent compassionThe current economic system REQUIRES a certain amount of poverty and unemployment in order for it to grow

Over 5% unemployment to ensure comptetition for jobs and stave off inflation is what I hear.  I cant remember the precise source but I'll look it up.

Naw.  Unemployment is desirable in this context because then employees will work for peanuts.

Thats "competition for jobs" Rog. :roll:  :lol:

Nope.  Doesn't apply in, say, the Appalachias, or Missouri, where NO jobs are left, because they're ALL minimum wage, and they're ALL full.

It's called "wage slavery".  Only this, and nothing more.

I meant in politican speak.  Not in reality.  P-speak and reality dont converge too often.

Quote from: ScribeI meant in politican speak.  Not in reality.  P-speak and reality dont converge too often.

Oh, I thought we were talking about reality.

Not Limbaugh-ville.

Hey, Roger...I've gotta go get the rubber waders ready for a hot session of sheep-fucking later this evening, so perhaps you could just take over writing my posts for me completely? I'll let you have sloppy seconds...I know how much you dig that sort of thing...

8)

You know what, Turd? You know what REALLY offended me out of all that?

First thing - I wasn't even TALKING to you when I made the comment about him, I was talking to Scytano-  but you jumped in - fair enough, this is the internet after all - but I had addressed 4 or 5 other points in the same message...

...which you roundly DISMISSED saying that because of the one item(my support of Kucinich) that EVERYTHING ELSE I said was therefore invalid....I think you said something like "You blow your credibility out of the water."

Well, I could argue the same thing at you, but it wouldn't be fair.

I could argue that because you like Modest Mouse, that all your other opinions regarding music are worthless...or that because you live in Maine that you don't have any right to talk about other states...I could pick any one insignificant detail about YOU and use it to torpedo YOUR carefully thought-out arguments....just because I didn't want to give them a thoughtful response.

But hey, what do I know? I'm a leftist nutjob who thinks that we need a more nuanced foreign policy than "Blow shit up."

8)

Quote from: GOATHey, Roger...I've gotta go get the rubber waders ready for a hot session of sheep-fucking later this evening, so perhaps you could just take over writing my posts for me completely? I'll let you have sloppy seconds...I know how much you dig that sort of thing...

8)

You started it, shitneck.

You are, henceforth, my bitch.

We will have many fun posting sessions together.

Quote from: agent compassion...which you roundly DISMISSED saying that because of the one item(my support of Kucinich) that EVERYTHING ELSE I said was therefore invalid....I think you said something like "You blow your credibility out of the water."

Well, I could argue the same thing at you, but it wouldn't be fair.

8)

Troof.  He also stooped to editting my text, which makes him my lawful prey (hence my constant editting of his posts, which will NEVER end).

As you know, I always need a whipping boy to fuck with on these forums.  Goat is now it.

Quote from: the goat who fucks sheepbut I stand by my opinions...instead of hating, y'oughtta just agree to disagree...

That goes both ways.

Sorry Roger, I have a habit of using politician speak when dealing with political matters.  I shouldnt, as its bollocks, but, oh well.  Lesson learnt.

OK, I found the figure in context, it is from Mark Zepezauer, in Take the Rich Off Welfare (pgs 124-125)

QuoteThe Federal Reserve Board tries to keep the pool of unemployed workers above 5%, so as not to fuel inflation (it does that by raising or lowering interest rates to slow down or speed up the economy). Unemployment above 5% guarantees that there will be plenty of competition for jobs at below-subsistence wages. But there,Äôs a steadily growing pool of even cheaper labour ,Äî the nation,Äôs prison population.

There it is in all its glory.

funny...I was under the impression that I was the punk kid here, but apparently, I'm debating with a bunch of 8th graders...

AgComp...get a fucking grip, yo...why do you even care what I said? didn't I say that you made some good points but the whole Kucinich thing rendered you completely incredible? does that sound like it might have a hint of sarcastic humor in it, or do you take everything both completely literally and totally seriously? Or did I break the cardinal rule of politics and disagree with someone of my own basic political persuasion? I guess since I'm a liberal, and you're a liberal, then we're always right as long as we disagree with those nasty evil "conservatards", huh? Seriously, I'm really so sorry that I offended you by challenging your political worldview...please accept these retarded non-existant cookies that everyone is so fond of "offering" as an apology, and how 'bout we just fucking squash it, a'ight?

Rog...it's a shame that you waste what appears to be a reasonably formidable intellect on jingoistic ideology-driven crapspeak...and on re-writing my posts, which I probably get a bigger laugh out of than you do...seriously though, that shit is funny, so don't stop now...sometimes your rapier wit is all that carries me through these oh-so-dreary siberian afternoons...

8)

Frankly, no, Turd, it didn't come off as sarcastic, as you might have noticed by now.

Believe it or not, sometimes ACTUAL SERIOUS CONVERSATION takes place around here.

But hey, as long as you get your licks in, without taking any yourself, I guess it's all right...

You still don't get it.  :roll:  Whatever....I've got papers to write. Enjoy being Rog's bitch.

i deny all rumour of actual serious conversation. in fact i categorically denyeverything.

just because one is talking politics in a serious manner, does not make the subject matter any less absurd.

listen, seriously? I'm tired of arguing with you, not least because I decided a while back that I like you, so I meant it when I said I hope we can squash the beef...and I didn't think you would take me so seriously, so again, I apologize for offending you...as for being Rog's bitch, well, I think it's no end of laughs, so i guess I'll be doing a public service by taking the brunt of his shit for a while instead of some poor schmuck who might take him seriously and get all pissy and weepy over it....

8)

Quotelisten, seriously? I'm tired of arguing with you, not least because I decided a while back that I like you, so I meant it when I said I hope we can squash the beef...and I didn't think you would take me so seriously, so again, I apologize for offending you...as for being Rog's bitch, well, I think it's no end of laughs, so i guess I'll be doing a public service by taking the brunt of his shit for a while instead of some poor schmuck who might take him seriously and get all pissy and weepy over it....

I never wept, and you know it. :) For future reference :arrow:  :wink:  That smiley works well for conveying sarcasm.

Fuck it, I'm sick of fighting as well. Apology accepted. 8)

awesome...and BTW, while I really did tell Isaac about the ass-pennies, I didn't actually tell him to go spend them in the Iranian food stores in your area...you're more or less safe for now...

8)

Quoteawesome...and BTW, while I really did tell Isaac about the ass-pennies, I didn't actually tell him to go spend them in the Iranian food stores in your area...you're more or less safe for now...

#1. There are no Iranian food stores in my area.
#2.  Next time you decide to make comments about turning certain
"Axis of Evil" countries into "glass parking lots" please remember that I have family in one of said countries...

8)

Quote from: GOATfunny...I was under the impression that I was the punk kid here, but apparently, I don't even qualify as THAT...

8)

Troof.

Quote from: GOATRog...it's a shame that you waste what appears to be a reasonably formidable intellect on jingoistic ideology-driven crapspeak... 8)

Um, you DO know what jingoism is, don't you?

(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/moran.gif)

Quote from: GOATlisten, seriously? I'm tired of being OWNED by you, not least because I decided a while back that I like being flogged, so I meant it when I said I hope I can suck the beef...and I didn't think you would PWN me so seriously, so again, I apologize for offending you...as for being Rog's bitch, well, I think it's , so i guess I'll be some poor schmuck who might take him seriously and get all pissy and weepy over it....

8)

True dat.

GOAT, good on ya for apologizing.

It warms the cockles of my heart to see ya'll make up. I'm getting all teary-eyed, truly... :mrgreen:

BTW, what's the consensus about an Iran invasion? From Seymour Hersh (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/) -

Quote“This is a war against terrorism, and Iraq is just one campaign. The Bush Administration is looking at this as a huge war zone,” the former high-level intelligence official told me. “Next, we’re going to have the Iranian campaign. We’ve declared war and the bad guys, wherever they are, are the enemy. This is the last hurrah—we’ve got four years, and want to come out of this saying we won the war on terrorism.”

The Bush Administration has refused to join in negotiations with Iran because-
 

Quote"The neocons say negotiations are a bad deal," a senior official of the International Atomic Energy Agency (I.A.E.A.) told me. "And the only thing the Iranians understand is pressure. And that they also need to be whacked."

Quote"France, Germany, and the U.K. cannot succeed alone, and everybody knows it," the diplomat said. "If the U.S. stays outside, we don’t have enough leverage, and our effort will collapse." The alternative would be to go to the Security Council, but any resolution imposing sanctions would likely be vetoed by China or Russia, and then "the United Nations will be blamed and the Americans will say, ‘The only solution is to bomb.’"

I'd like to think that they're not that fucking stupid, but it doesn't look good.

QuoteThe Administration has been conducting secret reconnaissance missions inside Iran at least since last summer.

Quotethe former high-level intelligence official told me that an American commando task force has been set up in South Asia and is now working closely with a group of Pakistani scientists and technicians who had dealt with Iranian counterparts.

QuoteThe American task force, aided by the information from Pakistan, has been penetrating eastern Iran from Afghanistan in a hunt for underground installations.

QuoteStrategists at the headquarters of the U.S. Central Command, in Tampa, Florida, have been asked to revise the military’s war plan, providing for a maximum ground and air invasion of Iran.

...

Previously, an American invasion force would have had to enter Iran by sea, by way of the Persian Gulf or the Gulf of Oman; now troops could move in on the ground, from Afghanistan or Iraq.

Bobdamnit, I said Iraq would be a prelude to Iran!  It made sense, look at the strategic placement of US forces, Afghanistan, Iraq, airbases in Georgia, looks like surrounding them to me.

Oh and anyone who uses the phrase "they also need to be whacked" in any sentence other than "the current US adminstration...with big sticks often" deserves a kicking.  Thats the sort of crap talk that loses respect and causes anger in diplomatic circles.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Rogerlisten, GOAT, seriously? I'm tired of being OWNED by you, not least because I decided a while back that I really would like some of your hot man-ass...I meant it when I said I hope I can suck the beef...and I didn't think you would PWN me so seriously, so again, I apologize for wasting your time with my weak-ass edits of your incredibly insightful posts...as for being your bitch, well, I'd be honored, but I know you would never allow a lowly worm such as me to denigrate your boots with my tongue...

True dat.

8)

Quote from: ScytanoDon't know how you all feel about that issue, but I think a free internet and the ability to share information is of great importance. So far the Bush administration has kept its hands off of that issue, and I attribute that mostly to the fact that they have no solid ties to the big media companies.

Buzzzz.

The reasons they have "kept their hands off" the internet is 1) too many
powerful people are making, or think they will make, a ton of money
off it - like ALL the big media companies; and 2) they haven't figured out
a reliable way to tax it, or even to regulate it. It is too easy to move
operations off shore. Look at all the folderall the record industry is going
through to try and regulate music. Even the ISPs can't get a handle on
"illegal" spam (i.e. stuff they can't make money on.) Bush has
TONS of ties to the big media companies. It is just that the internet is
too anarchic for them to wrestle to the ground. (BTW, they are
working on taking it away.)

Also, I think killing thousands and thousands of civilians is also of
great importance, but that is just me.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteThey have access to the same resouces we had/have. Let them save themselves.

We did

Ahh, but what if we ARE the resources? We were all woken up by someone else.

Not me.  I woke up on my own, traumatically.  This ain't the matrix.

This is why you are an Ivangelical.  You are willing to waste your precious time on this earth trying to save the morons.

I, on the other hand, get a real kick out of them, and occasionally poke them through the bars.

::drags out soapbox, stands on it::

Once upon a time, dear bretheren, I was poor and dispised. I was a
cynic, yes, sir, that's what I said, a CYNIC! May I have an AMEN! And
whenever I heard anyone say, "One person can make a difference,"
I would laugh, ahahahahaha, and annouce in my best cynical dialect
that THAT attitude was so much claptrap, a mere delusion perpetrated
by the forces of greed that clutch the strings of you marionettes. BUT
THEN, dear friends, I READ THE WORDS of The Good Reverend Roger,
YES, I tell you, I READ his words, and then the words of others, like
the Irreverend Hugh and the Good Lady, the Oracle of Doom, and the
holiest one, ERIS HERSELF, and I WAS CHANGED, may I have an amen,
I SAID I WAS CHANGED! Glory Halleluiah! And the way was clear to me,
YES, I tell you, the way to truth was clear to me, for I found it in the
Principia Discordia and the words of her disciples who walk here on
earth, and I KNEW the words of the cynics WERE WRONG! Glory be to
ERIS DISCORDIA, for I saw in WORDS, the Light and the PATH, and the
way to CHANGE THE WORLD! Yes, I did, Yes, I did. Gloria Halleluiah!
May I have an amen!

::steps down, folds up soapbox, wanders off in search of cookies::

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerBush has NEVER vetoed a spending bill.

Bush has never vetoed ANY bill.

Quote from: GOAT

I have a picture of Al Gonzalez pinned to the ceiling over my bed!  True dat.

8)

Okay.

hmm...looks like someone didn't eat their spinach today, cuz that shit was WEAK.

you're not really trying, are you?

I hope not...I really thought you'd be a more formidable opponent, and i was so looking forward to a challenge...why don't you go over to the LibertyUnites forums and brush up a bit? I'd hate for you to get in over your head....

8)

besides, everyone knows that latinos aren't really my type.

Quote from: brown's the color of poo
besides, everyone knows that latinos aren't really my type.

What, you don't like the milk chocolate?  :lol:

Speaking of chocolate - I got jimmies. Neener.

8)

Quote from: gnimbley

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteThey have access to the same resouces we had/have. Let them save themselves.

We did

Ahh, but what if we ARE the resources? We were all woken up by someone else.

Not me.  I woke up on my own, traumatically.  This ain't the matrix.

This is why you are an Ivangelical.  You are willing to waste your precious time on this earth trying to save the morons.

I, on the other hand, get a real kick out of them, and occasionally poke them through the bars.

::drags out soapbox, stands on it::

Once upon a time, dear bretheren, I was poor and dispised. I was a
cynic, yes, sir, that's what I said, a CYNIC! May I have an AMEN! And
whenever I heard anyone say, "One person can make a difference,"
I would laugh, ahahahahaha, and annouce in my best cynical dialect
that THAT attitude was so much claptrap, a mere delusion perpetrated
by the forces of greed that clutch the strings of you marionettes. BUT
THEN, dear friends, I READ THE WORDS of The Good Reverend Roger,
YES, I tell you, I READ his words, and then the words of others, like
the Irreverend Hugh and the Good Lady, the Oracle of Doom, and the
holiest one, ERIS HERSELF, and I WAS CHANGED, may I have an amen,
I SAID I WAS CHANGED! Glory Halleluiah! And the way was clear to me,
YES, I tell you, the way to truth was clear to me, for I found it in the
Principia Discordia and the words of her disciples who walk here on
earth, and I KNEW the words of the cynics WERE WRONG! Glory be to
ERIS DISCORDIA, for I saw in WORDS, the Light and the PATH, and the
way to CHANGE THE WORLD! Yes, I did, Yes, I did. Gloria Halleluiah!
May I have an amen!

::steps down, folds up soapbox, wanders off in search of cookies::

Amen brother, amen.

Someone give that gnome a cookie.

Quote from: GOAThmm...looks like someone didn't eat their spinach today, cuz that shit was WEAK.

you're not really trying, are you?

I hope not...I really thought you'd be a more formidable opponent, and i was so looking forward to a challenge...why don't you go over to the LibertyUnites forums and brush up a bit? I'd hate for you to get in over your head....

8)

besides, everyone knows that latinos aren't really my type.

1.  Mockery will not help you.

2.  LibertyUnites???!!!11111  :twisted: Link?

Oh, happy day.  Give us a link, and be absolved.

Well today was certainly a good day for the Iraqi people and the Bush administration. Hopefully things will continue to improve over there, and at a faster pace. The election is a great first step. :)

That depends on which Iraqis you're asking.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: GOAThmm...looks like someone didn't eat their spinach today, cuz that shit was WEAK.

you're not really trying, are you?

I hope not...I really thought you'd be a more formidable opponent, and i was so looking forward to a challenge...why don't you go over to the LibertyUnites forums and brush up a bit? I'd hate for you to get in over your head....

8)

besides, everyone knows that latinos aren't really my type.

1.  Mockery will not help you.

2.  LibertyUnites???!!!11111  :twisted: Link?

Oh, happy day.  Give us a link, and be absolved.

here's a link for ya...

www.google.com

if you can figure out how to use it, it can get you anywhere...

8)

you  = smart ass

Going back to the Iran situation that someone mentioned when I wasn't paying attention this (http://www.exile.ru/2005-January-27/war_nerd.html) is quite a good article about what might happen.

QuoteEverybody's asking me what'll happen if we attack Iran. To get a quick preview, just do what this guy in my eighth-grade class did: put a firecracker in your mouth, hold it between your front teeth, and light the fuse.

Hi,

Just snagging post #500 on this thread.

Carry on.

Quote from: IAmNotAnonymousGoing back to the Iran situation that someone mentioned when I wasn't paying attention this (http://www.exile.ru/2005-January-27/war_nerd.html) is quite a good article about what might happen.

QuoteEverybody's asking me what'll happen if we attack Iran. To get a quick preview, just do what this guy in my eighth-grade class did: put a firecracker in your mouth, hold it between your front teeth, and light the fuse.

Good article.  Im glad they raised the point about "rallying to the cause of freedom" as I always suspected that would be the case.

QuoteThe kids in Iran are pissed off at the way the old Mullahs won't let 'em rock and roll, but the idea that they'll support an American invasion because they're bored is totally insane. It's like imagining that the kids in Footloose would've backed a Soviet invasion of Nebraska because John Lithgow wouldn't let them hold school dances.

The argument between Mullahs and kids in Iran is a classic family fight. And you know what happens when some intruder crashes in on the middle of one of those: the whole family unites in about a millisecond and tears him apart.

The Iranians already hate us. They have since 1953, when the CIA staged a coup to get rid of a popular Lefty Prime Minister, Mossadeq. Way back in the 70s, when most of the world still kinda liked us, crowds in Tehran chanted "Marg bar Amrika," "Death to America."

Comparing Iraq to Iran is like comparing Ireland to the UK (sorry to any Irish readers, but the IRA are more active than your military).  Cultarally  and demographically they are so different to iraq, that anyone who uses the Iraq template for an invasion is going to get roughed up big style.  Espescialy if the Iranian top brass have read this (http://www.exile.ru/156/war_nerd.html), although of course they now have the land option.

Well, shut my mouth. Where is VoT to gloat?

Quote from: my looney anti-American information sourceSlate

today's papers
Iraq, the Vote
By Sam Schechner
Posted Monday, Jan. 31, 2005, at 4:16 AM PT

Everyone leads (online, at least) with Election Day in Iraq, where the turnout was unexpectedly high and the mood jubilant. As many as 8 million people, or almost 60 percent of eligible voters, cast ballots, sometimes within earshot of insurgents' repeated mortar, rocket, machine gun, and suicide attacks, which proved less deadly than feared but still killed 44. "The election was a victory of our own making," Iraq's national security chief told the New York Times. "Today, the Iraqi people voted with their own blood."

Or, put another way: "It's like a wedding. I swear to God, it's a wedding for all of Iraq," the director of a polling station in a Sunni area of Baghdad told the Washington Post. "No one has ever witnessed this before. For a half-century, no one has seen anything like it. And we did it ourselves."

According to the Post's ambitious lead--which wraps together reporting from several staffers and 12 Iraqi stringers in eight cities--the battle-weary country "took on the veneer of a festival, as crowds danced, chanted and played soccer in streets secured by thousands of Iraqi and American forces." Everyone notes that many voters ventured to the polls in their best clothes, often accompanied by their children, and returned proudly brandishing their indigo-stained fingers. In a Baghdad scene piece, the NYT's John Burns writes, "Foreigners who have been visiting Iraq for 15 years and knew the tension that crackled under Mr. Hussein could remember no other day when the city, in wide areas, seemed so much at ease."

And so it was a rare day in which, according to USA Today and the NYT, both Al Jazeera and Fox News broadcasted much of the same upbeat news. The newspapers, for their part, all post moving photo galleries.

Most of the papers say up high that voting in some Sunni areas exceeded the meager expectations. In one Sunni neighborhood in Baghdad, election officials told the WP that 1,500 of 2,500 residents made it to the polls. The Post implies that turnout in Sunni areas increased throughout the day as attacks turned out to be less deadly and widespread than advertised.

But the more you read, especially in the regional dispatches in the Los Angeles Times and WP, the more the Sunni story becomes mixed. While some small Sunni towns reportedly ran out of ballots because of unexpected demand, the LAT says only 1,700 votes were cast in the entire insurgent stronghold of Ramadi, a city of 400,000. (Apparently, insurgents telephoned some potential voters, warning them to stay home.) In Baji, the NYT's lead says election workers didn't bother to show up.

Meanwhile, in Sunni-majority melting pot Mosul, which has seen fierce fighting in recent months, the NYT and LAT say voters were lined up outside many polling stations, but a WP reporter who visited all of the poll sites in the city's ravaged southeast quadrant saw only saw four voters over the course of the day. "Of course I want to vote; we all want to vote," said one resident there, who was visited at home. "We waited 50 years for this. But everyone is afraid." On a wall across the street, graffiti offered a warning: "Anyone who votes will be beheaded."

By contrast, Kurds and Shiites voted in droves: In Irbil, two Kurdish women spent more than nine hours attempting to vote, after being turned away from several polling stations where the ballot boxes were full. And the NYT, WP, and LAT all file reports from the Shiite holy city of Najaf, where some 85 percent of eligible voters turned up at the polls.

The Wall Street Journal's front-page story (subscription required) is, bizarrely, alone (as far as TP can see) in putting the casualty count in perspective by mentioning the total number of insurgent attacks yesterday: 175, well more than the recent average of 50 to 60, not that the U.S. makes these numbers public any more. Inside, the Journal also highlights the role of homegrown militias (sub. req.), such as the "Defenders of Baghdad Brigade," in securing polling sites across the country. Many such groups began spontaneously springing up over the last month and U.S. forces decided to back them, outfitting some with weaponry and body armor. The NYT, for its part, fronts a story on the massive security effort that helped keep the deaths from mounting.

The WP has a separate, must-read story on the aftermath of a morning suicide bombing in an affluent section of Baghdad. Although the polling station initially closed, voters refused to go home. Some even volunteered to man an additional security perimeter, even "though this duty meant standing amid flecks of the flesh of the last officer who had the job."

Everyone flags the downing of a British C-130 transport plane in Iraq, killing about 10 soldiers.

And all the editorial pages--boldly--come out in favor of democracy, while attempting to weave yesterday's events into their respective master narratives. The WSJ clucks at liberals who it says opposed the election. The NYT rejoices in Iraqis' courage, but reserves "grave doubts about the overall direction of American strategy." Meanwhile the WP distills a welcome moral to the story:

Yesterday, however, Americans finally got a good look at who they are fighting for: millions of average people who have suffered for years under dictatorship and who now desperately want to live in a free and peaceful country. Their votes were an act of courage and faith--and an answer to the question of whether the mission in Iraq remains a just cause.

http://slate.bfi0.com/W0RH040D9543376E3F5763F29C48C0

Them Iraqis seem to have risen up and taken this election thing
seriously. And if we let them actually make their own decisions,
this could be the start of something unique and wonderous in the
Middle East.

Of course, it is still to soon to tell whether this euphoria is the
prelude to freedom or just the false glow of the seduction before
midnight falls.

But I sincerely hope that something grand is in the making. Wouldn't
that be nice for a change?

The downside is that, at least for the moment, GWB feels like he
is totally vindicated, so why not go into Iran? What's a few hundred
more thousand dead if we can get them dancing in the streets
to the tune of American style democracy.

Got to break a few eggs to make an omelet. Got to kill a few thousand
to have an election.

Damn I hope this holds in Iraq.

It hasnt changed anything though.  There is still terrorism, the insurgency continues to rip through the Iraqi forces like it wasnt there.  Yes, it is good that they have voted.  But will the winner live long enough to compete in the next elections?

Well I won't gloat, but I'm glad things went far better than many thought they would.  Also, Agent Compassion said "It depends on which Iraqis you ask."  Well unless you asked some displaced Sunnis who have oppressed the majority for 30 years, everyone is happy.  I heard a guy on NPR today say that it would be like saying an election in South Africa lacked credibility because the whites decided to boycott it.  I thought that was a good analogy.  So who fucking cares if the Sunnis are upset that their 30 year hold on illigitimate power has come to an end and who fucking cares if they're upset about it.  If they're smart, they'll get with it and create political groups that will at least establish them a proportionate share of power.  As of now, all others in Iraq like what's going down, and that can only be a good thing.

That being said, again, I won't gloat because I am still in agreement with the gnome that it's not over.  This was one of the most difficult parts of the process, but the training of Iraqi security forces is the other component and it's not over yet.  But, Scribe said:

"It hasnt changed anything though. There is still terrorism, the insurgency continues to rip through the Iraqi forces like it wasnt there. Yes, it is good that they have voted. But will the winner live long enough to compete in the next elections?"

Actually there are increasing reports that this is changing.  Our forces that have been working in coordination with Iraqi forces, who openly admitted that they were not holding their own in combat, have started saying otherwise.  In about the last month or so, I guess as the election grew nearer, they began to show much greater efforts and successes in fighting the insurgency, especially the Iraqi army as opposed to the police.  This is still an effort that is far from over, but it continues to be headed in the right direction and this was another huge step that way.  Yes, all revolutions see innocents lose their lives.  It's a shitty thing, but inevitable.

I also saw some analysis talking about how many on the left have really positioned themselves, whether intentionally or not, where bad news out of Iraq is good news for them politically and good news out of Iraq, such as this, presents them with a dilemma where they don't want to ever give any praise to the administration so they have to delicately commend the Iraqis and condemn Bush all in the same breathe.  Ted Kennedy is at the front of this group.  His best days are the ones in which lots of Americans get killed.  Whether you agree with this war and administratoin or not, that's a shitty place to be.

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell I won't gloat, but I'm glad things went far better than many thought they would.  

Really?  What, in concrete terms, was accomplished?

Quote from: Voice of TruthTed Kennedy is at the front of this group.  His best days are the ones in which lots of Americans get killed.  Whether you agree with this war and administratoin or not, that's a shitty place to be.

DITTO, RUSH!
\
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/joshua.gif)

are we still talking about Iraq?

that's so 2004...

all the real warmongers have moved on to Iran.

8)

Quote from: GOATare we still talking about Iraq?

that's so 2004...

all the real warmongers have moved on to Iran.

8)

Hi, I'm an AMERICAN!

Hi, I just shoved my arm in a hornets nest, and I'm about to do the same with my dick!  I'm an AMERICAN!

QuoteIt's the software inside people's heads that wins wars nowadays. You hardware freaks are going to have to face that fact one of these days. And it's this brain-software that we're hopeless at programming. Iraq has proved pretty clearly we don't have a clue how to use the Middle-Eastern brain OS. In fact, we've actually done the impossible: reprogrammed the miserable, cowardly Iraqis into fierce warriors.

Remember Gulf War I? Remember those pitiful fags crawling up to our soldiers to surrender on their hands and knees, sobbing like babies? Two years of occupation by Bush's morons has turned those cowards into fearless kamikazes in Oldsmobiles.

Man, that article was really interesting! Thanks for sharing, Scribe.

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteIt's the software inside people's heads that wins wars nowadays. You hardware freaks are going to have to face that fact one of these days. And it's this brain-software that we're hopeless at programming. Iraq has proved pretty clearly we don't have a clue how to use the Middle-Eastern brain OS. In fact, we've actually done the impossible: reprogrammed the miserable, cowardly Iraqis into fierce warriors.

Remember Gulf War I? Remember those pitiful fags crawling up to our soldiers to surrender on their hands and knees, sobbing like babies? Two years of occupation by Bush's morons has turned those cowards into fearless kamikazes in Oldsmobiles.

Man, that article was really interesting! Thanks for sharing, Scribe.

The War Nerd ROCKS.

You want a link to the archive?

Quote from: RogerHi, I'm an AMERICAN!

Hi, I just shoved my arm in a hornets nest, and I'm about to do the same with my dick! I'm an AMERICAN!

America, FUCK YEAH! Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day, yeah!
America, FUCK YEAH! Freedom is the only way, yeah!

(http://www.kucinich.us/phpBB2/images/smiles/020.gif)

I do, but you'll probably just direct me to google.com....

8)

Quote from: agent compassion

Quote from: Roger"Hi, I'm an AMERICAN!

Hi, I just shoved my arm in a hornets nest, and I'm about to do the same with my dick! I'm an AMERICAN!

America, FUCK YEAH! Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day, yeah!
America, FUCK YEAH! Freedom is the only way, yeah!

(http://www.kucinich.us/phpBB2/images/smiles/020.gif)

My RElAtiVeS AlL gOt KilLED bY IeDS anD I sTIll VotED fOr BUsH AgAIn!
\
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/joshua.gif)

Quote from: GOATI do, but you'll probably just direct me to google.com....

8)

Oh, Ye of little faith...

http://www.exile.ru/archive/by_author/gary_brecher.html

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell I won't gloat, but I'm glad things went far better than many thought they would.  Also, Agent Compassion said "It depends on which Iraqis you ask."  Well unless you asked some displaced Sunnis who have oppressed the majority for 30 years, everyone is happy.  I heard a guy on NPR today say that it would be like saying an election in South Africa lacked credibility because the whites decided to boycott it.  I thought that was a good analogy.  So who fucking cares if the Sunnis are upset that their 30 year hold on illigitimate power has come to an end and who fucking cares if they're upset about it.  If they're smart, they'll get with it and create political groups that will at least establish them a proportionate share of power.  As of now, all others in Iraq like what's going down, and that can only be a good thing.

That being said, again, I won't gloat because I am still in agreement with the gnome that it's not over.  This was one of the most difficult parts of the process, but the training of Iraqi security forces is the other component and it's not over yet.  But, Scribe said:

"It hasnt changed anything though. There is still terrorism, the insurgency continues to rip through the Iraqi forces like it wasnt there. Yes, it is good that they have voted. But will the winner live long enough to compete in the next elections?"

Actually there are increasing reports that this is changing.  Our forces that have been working in coordination with Iraqi forces, who openly admitted that they were not holding their own in combat, have started saying otherwise.  In about the last month or so, I guess as the election grew nearer, they began to show much greater efforts and successes in fighting the insurgency, especially the Iraqi army as opposed to the police.  This is still an effort that is far from over, but it continues to be headed in the right direction and this was another huge step that way.  Yes, all revolutions see innocents lose their lives.  It's a shitty thing, but inevitable.

I also saw some analysis talking about how many on the left have really positioned themselves, whether intentionally or not, where bad news out of Iraq is good news for them politically and good news out of Iraq, such as this, presents them with a dilemma where they don't want to ever give any praise to the administration so they have to delicately commend the Iraqis and condemn Bush all in the same breathe.  Ted Kennedy is at the front of this group.  His best days are the ones in which lots of Americans get killed.  Whether you agree with this war and administratoin or not, that's a shitty place to be.

there is no such thing as illegitimate power. it is not the mandate of any state to dictate to soverign nations what form of government they may or may not have, regardless of the corruption, ruthlessness or presumed evil thereof.

yet another n00b who thinks he knows a damned thing about anything, but really just eats the propghanda spoonfed to him without realizing that government and polticians consider part of their jobs to lie constantly to their constituents(no seriously, when you go to school to become a politician, this is what you are taught).


you're challenge is no challenge because it's uber presumptuous that you can begin to compete with anyone on this board when it comes to the intelectual capacity to make a decision for yourself. i don't usually  degrade a person based on intelect, as i find it a poor indicator fo a peron's worth, but you presuem that you are intelectually capable of understanding things that you constantly demonstrate that you do not understand.

Quote(no seriously, when you go to school to become a politician, this is what you are taught).

Wow. It's a good thing I don't want to be a politician then.

So then you think apartheid in Africa was "legitimate"?  You think the Soviet rule of the Eastern block was "legitimate"?  You think Fidel's rule over Cuba is "legitimate"?  You think Saddam's rule over his people was "legitimate"?  You think our institution of slavery, and the lack of voting rights for women were "legitimate"?  Sorry, I guess I'll stick with being "intellectually incapable" of understanding "legitimacy" if you think this to be the case.  Yes, "Vote for me or you will not wake up alive tomorrow."  Now that's what I call legitimacy!! :roll:

Quote from: Voice of TruthSo then you think apartheid in Africa was "legitimate"?  You think the Soviet rule of the Eastern block was "legitimate"?  You think Fidel's rule over Cuba is "legitimate"?  You think Saddam's rule over his people was "legitimate"?  You think our institution of slavery, and the lack of voting rights for women were "legitimate"?  Sorry, I guess I'll stick with being "intellectually incapable" of understanding "legitimacy" if you think this to be the case.  Yes, "Vote for me or you will not wake up alive tomorrow."  Now that's what I call legitimacy!! :roll:

"Legitimacy" comes from the barrel of a gun...here, as well as the shitholes named above.

So you have guns pointed at you when you vote in Illinois?  That's funny because you guys voted for Kerry.  What's that tell you? :lol:

::picks up VoT, puts him over her knee and starts spanking him, gently but firmly::

That's a naughty little neocon! No more debate for you tonight, mister, it's past your bedtime! Now go to bed!

:twisted:

Quote from: Voice of TruthSo you have guns pointed at you when you vote in Illinois?  That's funny because you guys voted for Kerry.  What's that tell you? :lol:

AYRTS?  IA?

If you want a demonstration of the USA's legitimacy coming from the barrel of a gun, please refer to American History, circa 1860-65.

Or just tell the IRS to fuck off.

(http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics11/A-B-S_Oct-2004/FrereJeanBleu/images/uncysam.JPG)

yes given the 4000 years or so of human history i consider any state wether it is a state based on laws or force of arms, to be completely legitmate, based ont he fact that eitehrway it's still based on threat of arms.

i mean because if you want to get into it, we shoudl really disband america and give it back to the red man as after all, we stole his land, oppressed him, raped hsi women, slaughtered his children and destroyed his cutlure. we should ivnade england, because they're brutal war with ireland during 1980's involved killing torturing and imprisoning innopcent non combatants, and pretty nvade the entire world, dipose their leaders, etc.

all states and fors fo governemnt are legitimate because the precedent of human history.

this current american government is settign a very dangerous precedent, which may very well spell the end of american civilization, wether that civilization dies from foriegn invaders or from it's own unwillingness to think critically or beyonf their own personal immidiate wants.

(http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics10/!war/fuckthatshit/LeMur/bd_Fuck_That_Shit08.jpg)

It's bad enought that you guys lack creativity in your anti-Bush rhetoric, but then there is shit like this:

"this current american government is settign a very dangerous precedent, which may very well spell the end of american civilization, wether that civilization dies from foriegn invaders or from it's own unwillingness to think critically or beyonf their own personal immidiate wants."

Don't you ever find youself laughing at your own words when you type such loaded bs.  This is the kind of crap that makes people like Rush and Ann Coulter rich talking about how big of idiots some on the left really are.  I'm well aware many of you have legitimate (hate to use that word again so soon) reasons for not liking Bush and this war, but shit like this is just fucking stupid, to be blunt.  If this is really something you truly feel deep down then you need to go have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up. :wink:

My bad, then you'll be supporting an "evil" American corporation, and we wouldn't want to do that. :lol:

Quote from: Voice of ToothIt's bad enought that you guys pwn me again and again with your anti-Bush wisdom, but then I keep coming back for more. What's wrong with me? I'm such a dumbass. I wish I was a Discordian like you guys.

Good to hear you admit it finally, VoT...

(http://www.kucinich.us/phpBB2/images/smiles/alright.gif)

Quote from: agent compassion

QuoteIt's the software inside people's heads that wins wars nowadays. You hardware freaks are going to have to face that fact one of these days. And it's this brain-software that we're hopeless at programming. Iraq has proved pretty clearly we don't have a clue how to use the Middle-Eastern brain OS. In fact, we've actually done the impossible: reprogrammed the miserable, cowardly Iraqis into fierce warriors.

Remember Gulf War I? Remember those pitiful fags crawling up to our soldiers to surrender on their hands and knees, sobbing like babies? Two years of occupation by Bush's morons has turned those cowards into fearless kamikazes in Oldsmobiles.

Man, that article was really interesting! Thanks for sharing, Scribe.

Not a problem.  The War Nerd is pretty smart, if somewhat disturbing.

QuoteThe War Nerd is pretty smart, if somewhat disturbing.

Well, war is disturbing...

Quote from: Voice of TruthSo you have guns pointed at you when you vote in Illinois?  That's funny because you guys voted for Kerry.  What's that tell you? :lol:

Thats someone took my ID and somehow gained for me an American passport, all 4 months ago at least.  And they werent any good, because they should have made more fake IDs to swing the vote properly :roll:

Quote from: Voice of TruthIt's bad enought that you guys lack creativity in your anti-Bush rhetoric, but then there is shit like this:

"this current american government is settign a very dangerous precedent, which may very well spell the end of american civilization, wether that civilization dies from foriegn invaders or from it's own unwillingness to think critically or beyonf their own personal immidiate wants."

Don't you ever find youself laughing at your own words when you type such loaded bs.  This is the kind of crap that makes people like Rush and Ann Coulter rich talking about how big of idiots some on the left really are.  I'm well aware many of you have legitimate (hate to use that word again so soon) reasons for not liking Bush and this war, but shit like this is just fucking stupid, to be blunt.  If this is really something you truly feel deep down then you need to go have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up. :wink:

My bad, then you'll be supporting an "evil" American corporation, and we wouldn't want to do that. :lol:

I see.  So invading foreign countries on the basis of spurious evidence and ignoring the UN whilst doing so (and being a member of the UNPSC) isnt a dangerous precedent.  OK then.  So you wont complain when the nuke comes from NK to end the "fascist police state and bring true Marxist-Leninsit ways" to the US?

We didn't set the precedent, Scribe (ref England in Ireland, France in the Ivory Coast, or Russia in Chechnya here).  I also was referring to the "end of American civilization" blather.  I'm sorry, you guys can say whatever you want, but sometimes you get so caught up in your OWN rhetoric that you really say some stupid shit.  This was classic in that regard.

VOT = (http://www.kucinich.us/phpBB2/images/smiles/cheer.gif)

Quote from: Voice of TruthWe didn't set the precedent, Scribe (ref England in Ireland, France in the Ivory Coast, or Russia in Chechnya here).  I also was referring to the "end of American civilization" blather.  I'm sorry, you guys can say whatever you want, but sometimes you get so caught up in your OWN rhetoric that you really say some stupid shit.  This was classic in that regard.

But in all of those places there was at least past precedent for control, even if those treaties had been signed at gunpoint.  And there was no UN discussion over them, because they knew they would break it and set a precedent for other third world nations to do the same back, meaning a return to the anarchic international system and therefore ams races, alliances etc the whole lot.  It doesnt look good when the biggest power, who helped found the UN, starts breaking those rules so publicly.

As for "the end of American civilization", well it has to happen one day.  Maybe the day Bush picks a war with a nation that can fight back, maybe 20 years time, maybe 200 years time.  Who knows?  They said Rome was the Eternal City, and while it may still be around, its not exactly the centre of Europe nowadays is it?  And it may not even be so dramatic as an invasion.  What if China etc decide to drop the US debt and a terror attack cuts off Saudi Arabian oil?  Your economy will be fucked and you can expect scenes similar to the last days of Weimar Germany.  And thats just one scernario I can think of.  

In summary, things are often more transient then they appear.  And nothing looks good when the worlds most powerful country that purportedly seeks international peace invades without a mandate from an organization it set up.

Hey, VoT, chew on this. Maybe you'll learn something....but i doubt it

"Why the Children in Iraq Make No Sound When They Fall
by Bernard Chazelle


No one said that dying had to be dull. "Screaming with fear, paralyzed children at a shelter for the physically disabled and mentally ill in Galle, Sri Lanka, lay helplessly in their beds as seawater surged around them." The CNN report read like the screenplay of a horror film. A crippled girl grows up destitute in a home for the deaf, the blind, the insane, and, for good measure, the disabled elderly (what more could a kid wish for?) At the end of a short life spent wondering why no one ever looked out for her, the child reaches the final punctuation mark of her blessed existence and drowns glued to a wheelchair.

Tragedy should not be too clever. Mourning embraces the solemnity of death but recoils at an overzealous script. When fate appears to cross the thin line between cruelty and sadism, grief turns to anger. We expect the church organist at the funeral mass to interrupt Bach in mid-measure, look up to the sky, and shout "Come on!"

Voltaire had his "come on" moment in the wake of the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, suggesting that God's supreme goodness perhaps was not all it was cracked up to be. Religious irreverence is not much in fashion these days. But piety was not always so docile. History has been improbably kind to all sorts of figures who've had cross words with the Almighty. Think of Job, Jonah, Jeremiah, and Jesus on the cross,Äîand that's only for the J's. Once or twice, the dispute even got out of hand: Nietzsche killed God; and Richard Rubenstein saw in Auschwitz confirmation of his death. Admittedly, to reconcile the Holocaust with a just and omnipotent god is an interesting variation on squaring the circle,Äîor, since Mikl??s Laczkovich actually succeeded in doing just that [1], let us say, merely a reminder that gods may die but theological debates just never do.

My own reaction to the CNN report was not nearly as elevated. "Why would God behave like Don Rumsfeld?" I wondered. As the crippled child writhed in agony, I pictured God murmuring "Stuff happens."

Woe unto me. To compare God to Rummy is worse than blasphemous: It's unfair. After all, God did not cow the media into decorating our TV screens with the beatific smiles of preening peacocks reassuring us that smart waves drowned the terrorists, spared the innocent, amused the children, and provided much needed water to drought-prone regions. God gets accused of many things, including being dead, but lying is rarely one of them.

Mendacity, on the other hand, is the reserve currency of this administration. Its marketing hook: "You give us your votes; we give you our lies." From the fictitious Saddam-al Qaeda axis to the rosy updates on the Switzerlandization of Iraq, from the bogus tales of WMD to the assurance that democracy is the future of the region (and always will be, would add the cynics), the giving has been, shall we say, generous.

The taking has been no less effusive. Although the hysterical rantings of prowar voices rarely exceeded, in dignity, the yapping of a chihuahua attacking a meatball, they met only the meekest resistance from an oleaginous mainstream media. The war hawks found powerful enablers in The New York Times, which was more than happy to echo the delusory yarn spun by the White House and pimp for Judith Miller's Best Little Whorehouse in Babylon (where bling bling spells WMD).

Pimping being the fickle business that it is, it won't be long before the In-Bush-We-Trust media gets in touch with its inner peacenik and points an accusing finger at the posse of visionary mediocrities who gave us a nasty case of Iraq syndrome. No doubt some of the neocons will balk at going to their graves with the word "loser" carved on a brass coffin plate; so watch for them to pull a McNamara on us and humbly beg for forgiveness. Being good souls, ie, suckers for smarmy group hugs, naturally we'll oblige.

Were it so simple.

The abject surrender of the media fed a slew of illusions to the public, none more craven than the belief that he whom we kill must be killed. Yeah, yeah, we occasionally obliterate the wrong house and incinerate its occupants, but that's just "friendly fire." (A lovely phrase if there's one: Let's hear the surgeon who amputates the wrong leg inform his patient of his "friendly amputation.") Minus the friendliness, however, our whiz-bang weapon wizardry never fails to separate the wheat from the chaff, the nursing mother from the crazed beheader. So goes the creed, anyway.

The Lancet,Äîthat well-known freedom hating rag,Äîbegs to differ. It estimates that our high-IQ, mensa-schmensa bombs have killed 100,000 civilians [2]. Iraq Body Count, which plays the lowballing game by shunning projections, reports the deaths of 600 non-combatants during our latest goodwill tour of Fallujah (by now primed to be renamed Grozny on the Euphrates) [3].

And then there is the Iraqi girl, hands soaked in her dead father's blood, whose little brother does not yet understand that his childhood has just come to an end. Fearing for their lives, US soldiers killed the parents in the front seat of the family car. Demons will likely haunt their nights. Stuff happens. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, bless their souls, will sleep well tonight.

Wars never fail to produce their share of pithy lines. Tommy Franks made sure this one would be no exception. "We don't do body counts," crowed the general, who really meant to say that he does not do "dark-skinned body counts" (he counts the others just fine). Lucky for us that he doesn't run a Swedish newspaper, or it would have splashed the headline: "Tsunami kills 2,000 Swedes,Äîand a few locals." To be fair, Franks remembered the last time he did body counts, Vietnam, and how well that ended. But today's tactical thinking packs a wallop of self-righteous denial. We don't tally the children we kill for the same reason monsters don't buy mirrors: That's how they go through life thinking they're angels.

We've snuffed out innocent lives in numbers that insurgents and terrorists could only dream of. But we avert our eyes. We bury our heads in the sand and turn a blind eye to our moral cowardice, thus pulling off the amazing feat of being ostriches and chickens all at once. We owe this marvel of ornithology to the inexorable fragility of human illusions. To quote James Carroll, "we avert our eyes because the war is a moral abyss. If we dare to look, as Nietzsche said, the abyss stares back." George Bush, the philosopher, has updated Berkeley's riddle: Do Iraqi children scream when the bombs fall if there is no one in the White House to hear them?

The celebrity of the month, the tsunami victim, has hogged newspaper headlines nationwide with stomach-churning photo spreads of wailing mothers and floating cadavers. Like his unsung Iraqi brethren, the victim has reminded us that calamity always strikes the poor, the sick, and the helpless first. It's invariably those with the least to lose who lose the most. At the great banquet of cataclysms, rich Westerners get served last. Bush would have us believe that we've suffered so much from terrorism the world owes us undying compassion. In truth, our induction into the Misery Hall of Fame is still a long way off. With our sustained assistance, however (coddling Saddam while he was gassing Iranians, slapping sanctions that killed half a million children, and fighting two wars in twelve years), Iraq made it on the first ballot. Who ever said that we didn't have a big heart?

Not Condoleezza Rice: "I do agree that the tsunami was a wonderful opportunity to show not just the US government, but the heart of the American people, and I think it has paid great dividends for us" [4]. And I just can't wait for the next one, our top diplomat might have added.

While watching Colin Powell, pocket calculator in hand, add up the geopolitical benefits of our generosity and tell us how shocked, shocked he was by the tsunami's devastation, I could almost hear the Beatitudes from The Gospel According to Dubya: "Blessed are the children whom the sea swallows, for they shall tug at our heartstrings. / Cursed are the children whom our bombs blow up, for they shall roam the dark alleys of our indifference." We've been Iraq's tsunami. But expect no charity drive, no minute of silence, no flag at half-staff: nothing that would allow shame to rear its ugly face.

With Bush's reelection, America now has the president it deserves. And should you find that Lady Liberty, all dolled up with the latest in fashion from Abu Ghraib and Guant?°namo, looks a bit like a used up hooker, you won't need to ask who hired her pimp: We did.

The liberation of Iraq began with smart flying bombs crashing over Baghdad. We should have known better. Liberations that start with a reenactment of 9/11 rarely end well.

[1] Laczkovich, M. Equidecomposability and discrepancy; a solution of Tarski's circle-squaring problem, J. Reine Angew. Math. 404 (1990), 77-117.

[2] 100,000 Civilian Deaths Estimated in Iraq, by Rob Stein, Washington Post, October 29, 2004. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html

[3] Iraq Body Count Falluja Archive, www.iraqbodycount.org, 2004. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/resources/falluja/

[4] Dr. Rice's senate confirmation hearing, Agence France Presse, Tuesday, January 18, 2005. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0118-08.htm

Bernard Chazelle is a professor of computer science and Princeton University Fellow, American Academy Arts & Sciences, European Academy of Sciences.

© 2005 Bernard Chazelle"
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0128-24.htm

Quote from: ScribeYour economy will be fucked and you can expect scenes similar to the last days of Weimar Germany.  And thats just one scernario I can think of.

Damn that's scary. I could see someone much worse than Bush grabbing power then.

VoT, I doubt anyone here is seriously saying they'd be glad to see America fall. I just see it as historically inevitable, and think Bush is helping speed it up. Now let's get back to the flaming.

Yeah...um...has anyone seen my vast empire?

No?

Anybody?

Shit.

VoT, empires fall, they always do, and that's why it's upsetting to see G-Dub acting like an emperor; where is it written that America can't be successful without trying to over the world? What is so wrong with just being America and playing nice? I happen to like this country quite a bit and would hate to see it crap the bed after just a couple of centuries....but I'm not the President....

Boy, this thread is a train wreck. :?

I really cannot understand those who don't think this election was a colossal success for both the Iraqi people and the Bush administration, without whom this vote would have never taken place (or at least it probably wouldn't have happened for a very long time). This vote showed the Iraqi people that THEY could take things into their own hands. They got up and braved geting shot and blown up, so they could vote. Those they voted for will then write the country's constitution, and democracy will hopefully follow.

I don't think even the hardcore PNAC folks could say that this war has gone smoothly or that it's a complete success... there's been too many missteps and problems for that to be true. Equally though, I think many people are underestimating how important it is to have a functioning Democracy in this part of the world, sitting right between Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia. This is huge, if it works, and all indications are that this bloodied and beaten country is still on its feet and fighting for its future as a free state. That is a wonderful thing.

Quote from: ScytanoEqually though, I think many people are underestimating how important it is to have a functioning Democracy in this part of the world, sitting right between Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Important for who, exactly? The Iraqis don't need to have a functioning democracy between Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia -- they've lived without one for a long time now. I doubt the Iranians, Syrians or Saudis feel a need for one either.

Important for the Americans perhaps?

Quote from: Guido Finucci

Quote from: ScytanoEqually though, I think many people are underestimating how important it is to have a functioning Democracy in this part of the world, sitting right between Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Important for who, exactly? The Iraqis don't need to have a functioning democracy between Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia -- they've lived without one for a long time now. I doubt the Iranians, Syrians or Saudis feel a need for one either.

Important for the Americans perhaps?

I think Democracy, and it's immediate family, is the only form of legitimate government in the world today. Sure, it's important for the US too.

Quote from: ScytanoI think Democracy, and it's immediate family, is the only form of legitimate government in the world today. Sure, it's important for the US too.

Two questions before I launch into another screaming rant that no-one wants to read:
a) What do you mean by, "Democracy, and it's immediate family"?
b) What make a form of government, any form of government, "legitimate"?

Quote from: Guido Finucci

Quote from: ScytanoI think Democracy, and it's immediate family, is the only form of legitimate government in the world today. Sure, it's important for the US too.

Two questions before I launch into another screaming rant that no-one wants to read:
a) What do you mean by, "Democracy, and it's immediate family"?
b) What make a form of government, any form of government, "legitimate"?

a) Democracy's immediate family meaning those different flavors of Democracy... like pure Democracy (Athenian), US-style Representative Democracy, and the various Parliamentary systems across the globe.
b) "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." Without that last part in particular, there is no legitimacy.

Quote from: Scytanoa) Democracy's immediate family meaning those different flavors of Democracy... like pure Democracy (Athenian), US-style Representative Democracy, and the various Parliamentary systems across the globe.

And you think that these are all, basically, the same? Particularly -- do you think that all of these are examples of systems where those who govern do so only with the consent of the governed?

(and to pre-empt a possible next question: do you consider apathy on behalf of the governed to indicate consent?)

Quote from: Scytanob) "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." Without that last part in particular, there is no legitimacy.

Okay -- it is my opinion that the truths mentioned are neither necessarily true, nor are they self-evident, but that's just me and has no real bearing on this argument.

Let us, just for a moment, assume that this ODWG was onto something and consent is the single necessary and sufficent condition for legitimate government. What do you think he meant by consent? Unanimous consent? Majority consent? Do you think that wahtever it was they meant can both provide a basis for a legititmate system of government and actually occur in practice, in the real world, even when some people are trying to fuck the system?

Or to put it another way -- how much dissent do you need before a democratic government ceases to hold legitimate power?

I'm going to bow out of this.

Quote from: ScytanoI'm going to bow out of this.

Awwwww! Come back. I'll play nicely. Promise.

Well all I can say is every time a U.S. President has made the war cry, or even strong rhetoric for that matter, since WWII there has been an outcry from many in the world that America is out of control and trying to cause a nuclear war and blah blah blah...  Also you people keep on with your "breaking the rules of the U.N".  We broke NO RULES.  We, in fact, had resoutions that supported what we did, IF ANYTHING.  There was no resolution stating "Iraq cannot be invaded" or "The U.S. must seek permission from the security council before invading Iraq".  You all keep telling yourselves that happened to make this war seem even more illegal, but it just didn't go down that way.  Resolution 1441 threatened the "use of force" if Saddam did not comply.  As to whether or not he was complying, that is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, and I'm sure we would disagree on that, but on this basic argument, you guys are simply wrong.

As to the "end of American civilization", well the way I look at, as more and more democracies prop up all over the world because they have seen the great success of democracy, "American civlization" is expanding tenfold.  American civilization is freedom and liberty.  It's not something people usually want to get rid of too fast.  At best, I'd concede that in maybe a hundred+ years we could see a world body gaining a lot more centralized power (scary thought) and nations losing theirs.  Keep your eye on how the EU plays out over the next couple decades to get a better grasp on whether or not that will happen.  Either way, this talk of the U.S. marking their end because of this Iraq war is plain stupid.  Seriously.  Did Vietnam spell our end, which was far less successful and had just as little worldwide support.

Finally, that article was great propaganda, agent c.  What exactly was I supposed to learn from it?  So it took Rice's comments out of context (if you saw those lines in the entire comments they were part of, they didn't come off near that way, but big surprise this article... :? ).  It also did the usual, attack us for the death of civilians during a military campaign.  Many more died in the liberation of France, an ally, during WWII.  The fact is our military campaigns continue to be increasingly more effective at curbing innocent deaths and increasing enemy deaths, but war is never perfect.  Even in a 100% "legitimate" war this same article could be written by a war opponent.  In affect, this falls on deaf ears to those who support the war.  Am I happy that innocent people have lost their lives; No.  Do I wish we could have killed none of them and only 100% enemies; Yes.  Is that realistic; No.  That article was a steaming pile of shit.  It's stinking up Discordia.  You should shovel it out. :wink:

Quote from: Voice of Truth"breaking the rules of the U.N".  We broke NO RULES.  

Incorrect.  Article 52 says you may only use military force in self-defence.  The latest UN resolution against Iraq was drafted so that there would be a legitmate way of delaring war, however the conditions were not met in a sufficient fashion to warrant military action.

::puts on his other hat::

Quote from: Guido Finucci

Quote from: Scytanoa) Democracy's immediate family meaning those different flavors of Democracy... like pure Democracy (Athenian), US-style Representative Democracy, and the various Parliamentary systems across the globe.

And you think that these are all, basically, the same? Particularly -- do you think that all of these are examples of systems where those who govern do so only with the consent of the governed?

(and to pre-empt a possible next question: do you consider apathy on behalf of the governed to indicate consent?)

OMG< I"M DEVASTED BY YOUR LOGIC!!11!

::puts hat away::

Sorry, got a little carried away.

I seemed to remember that Athens was based on a slave labor economy.
Not really true democracy for anyone not a "citizen." However, we
quibble. All of these are better than one person rule. Somewhat better
than military dictatorship. Etc., etc.

I do think that apathy can be considered consent, but is it apathy or
resignation because they believe they are fucked regardless of who's
in power?

Quote from: Guido Finucci

Quote from: Scytanob) "We hold these truths....

Okay... What do you think he meant by consent? ...how much dissent do you need before a democratic government ceases to hold legitimate power?

Enough dissent to cause the government to become unfunctional.
Function = legitimacy. Or, to put it another way, there is no legitimacy,
only power.

All power to the poeples!

Now, if I only knew what a poeple was, I would have it all figured out.

(I think Jefferson meant the majority of those in the Continental
Congress when he wrote consent. Don't you? I also think he believed
that translated into the will of the whole people. Well, those who were
permitted to vote, anyway.)

Quote from: gnimbley::
All power to the poeples!

Now, if I only knew what a poeple was, I would have it all figured out.

you must have meant the POEples.

Y'know, the Purity Of Essence party.

::puts on his VoT hat so he only has to respond to those things he
wishes to respond to and is allowed to change the subject AND
bring up allusions to WWII to justify all aggressive American foreign
military actions until the end of time::

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell all I can say is every time a U.S. President has made the war cry, or even strong rhetoric for that matter, since WWII there has been an outcry from many in the world that America is out of control and trying to cause a nuclear war and blah blah blah...  

Where did anyone here say that America is trying to cause a nuclear
war? You know, VoT, this sounds a lot like the Clinton tactic of dismissing
all criticism as "old news." Oh, wait. He wasn't a conservative. Sorry.

Quote from: Voice of TruthAlso you people keep on with your "breaking the rules of the U.N".  We broke NO RULES... that is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, and I'm sure we would disagree on that, but on this basic argument, you guys are simply wrong.

VoT. You argue that people can legitimately have different
interpretations and then argue that anyone who has a different
interpretation from you is "simply wrong." Which is it?

Quote from: Voice of TruthAs to the "end of American civilization", well the way I look at, as more and more democracies prop up all over the world because they have seen the great success of democracy, "American civlization" is expanding tenfold.  American civilization is freedom and liberty...

I will agree that the "end" of American civilization will come, some day.
It may be hundreds of years from now, so saying that Iraq or the
War on Terror will bring it is a real stretch.

However, I must disagree that "American civilization is freedom and
liberty." Americans pride themselves as being free, but they do not
have a monopoly on defining the term. It is a typical political tactic to
define movements or institutions as being a particluar idea (i.e.
Democrats are liberal, America is freedom, Wal-Mart is low prices)
but it is disengenious at best and propaganda at worse. American
civilization is more than it's self defined political image. It is American
culture, American corporate business practices, American economic
forces, American attitudes towards the world. Saying that we are
freedom and liberty, is like saying France is equality and China is
progressive.

Quote from: Voice of TruthFinally, that article was great propaganda, agent c.  

Yup. Excellent writing. A bit overboard at times, but nice nevertheless.
Almost as good as Bush's Inaugural address.

Quote from: Voice of TruthMany more died in the liberation of France, an ally, during WWII.  

Does this justify anything? Gee, more died over there, so I guess what
happened over here is okay?

Quote from: Voice of TruthThe fact is our military campaigns continue to be increasingly more effective at curbing innocent deaths and increasing enemy deaths, but war is never perfect.  

I guess we should look forward to more smart wars then, huh? After all,
if we can only kill those we want to kill, then killing people is a great
way for a democracy to pass its time. If we could invent a bomb that
could kill only those people who hate democracy, then, wow!, wouldn't
that be a great weapon. And then, maybe if we tweak it just a little bit,
we could create a bomb that would only kill those who hate baby Jesus.
And then a bomb to kill all those who like that sucky music Turd is always
ranting against. And then...

there is one, and only one thing that makes a government legitimate.

they have the most guns.

and for you fucking MORONS who think this is actually about spreading democracy, please explain to me why we didn't try this first in Sudan, or East Timor, or Spanish Sahara, or even Yemen, for fuck's sake? I'll tell you why. None of those countries had any strategic significance for American interests whatsoever...none of those countries had HUGE OIL RESERVES. It's not about anything else, no matter what mindless propaganda you choose to swallow. Turn off your TV and go think for yourselves for a minute...

8)

When do we get to spread democracy to Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan?  Oh I forget, those are "benevolent dictatorships".  Yeah right.  Believe that and you'll believe anything.

Benevolent Dictatorship. That almost sounds like an oxymoron, to me.

Quote from: Voice of TruthWell to those who won't watch it, feel free to never use the "close-minded" label on me ever again. :wink:

he had four years to make people listen,then they did,and he did fuck all but start a war. didnt he say that he was a war president? freedom means you can do what you want,which is what i believe the iraq nation did. hes now only got two years really before the candidates start doing their lying bit. wouldn't be surprised if colon powell won, oh or that clinton bird. thats gonna take the shine off bush and blackman and a women in the same year...hhehhheheheh...his horns couldn't fit through the door.

Quote from: Voice of TruthIt also did the usual, attack us for the death of civilians during a military campaign.  Many more died in the liberation of France, an ally, during WWII.  The fact is our military campaigns continue to be increasingly more effective at curbing innocent deaths and increasing enemy deaths, but war is never perfect.  Even in a 100% "legitimate" war this same article could be written by a war opponent.  In affect, this falls on deaf ears to those who support the war.  Am I happy that innocent people have lost their lives; No.  Do I wish we could have killed none of them and only 100% enemies; Yes.  Is that realistic; No.  That article was a steaming pile of shit.

I've been thinking about something related to the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" cliche for a while. In the specific case of deciding who lives and dies, even without any accidental death, it's certainly true. "Kill them because they're trying to kill us." "These people have to die because they pose a future threat to our security." "This democratically elected leader has policies that will indirectly oppose the spread of our ideologies. We must replace him with someone more friendly." Each only takes slightly more justification than the last. Even in a case comparible to medical triage, this applies. If the only way to save some lives is to let others be killed, how do you decide? You want to talk about Vietnam, okay. Sometimes "we had to destroy the city to save it." Where the fuck does that kind of logic come from? "We had to amputate his head so he could survive. I'm sorry."
The American military is very good at smashing things. Not so much at being a doctor.

I don't think there's ever been a military that was good at being a doctor. It kind of goes against the purpose for which they were created in the first place. Which is to be the most effective killing machine possible.

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop is Out of Stock
I hang myself...via live telecast

Coming live from my own funeral...the beautiful weather offered a nice shine
Which is suitable for a full view of a forever altered skyline
It's times like these I freestyle biased opinions every other sentence
My journalistic ethics slip when I pass them off as objective
"Don't gimme that ethical shit."
I've got exclusive, explicit images to present to impressionable American kids
And it's time to show this world how big our edifice is!

That's exactly what they attacked when a typically dark skinned Disney villain
Used civilians against civilians and charged the trojan horses into our buildings
Using commercial aviation as instruments of destruction
Pregnant women couldn't protect their children
Wheelchairs were stairway obstructions
Now I have to back petal...from the shower of glass and metal
Wondering how after it settles we'll find who provided power to radical rebels
The Melting Pot seems to be calling the kettle black when it boils over
But only on our own soil so the little boy holds a toy soldier..
And waits for the suit and tie to come home. We won't wait 'til he's older
Before we destroy hopes for a colder war to end
"Now get a close up of his head..."

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop Is Out Of Stock
Hang Myself...Half Mast

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop is Out of Stock
I hang myself while the stock markets crash

The city is covered in inches of muck
I see some other pictures of victims are up
Grieving mothers are thinking their children are stuck
Leaping lovers are making decisions to jump
While holding hands...to escape the brutal heat
Sometimes in groups of the three
The fall out goes far beyond the toxic cloud where people look like debris
But all they saw after all was said...beyond the talking heads
Was bloody dust with legs looking like the walking dead calling for meds
Hospitals are overwhelmed. volunteers need to go the hell home
Moments of silence for fire fighters were interupted by cell phones
Who's going to make that call to increase an unknown death toll?
It's the one we rally behind
He's got a megaphone...and he's promising to make heads roll
So we cheer him on, but asbestos is affecting our breath control
The less we know...the more they fabricate...the easier it is to sell souls
We're sellin addictive 24 hour candle light vigils in TV's
Freedom WILL be defended...at the cost of civil liberties
Viewers are glued to television screens
Stuck... cause lots of things seem too sick
I use opportunities to pluck heart strings for theme music

I'll show you which culture to punp your fist at and what foot is right to kiss
We don't know who the culprit is yet...but he looks like this
We know who the heros are. Not the xenophobes who act hard
"We taught that dog to squat.
How dare he do that shit in our own back yard!"

They happened to scar our financial state and char our landscape
Can you count how many times so far I ran back this same damn tape?
While a camera man creates news and shoves it down our throats on the West Bank
With a 10 second clip put on constant loop to provoke US angst

So get your tanks and load your guns and hold your sons in a family huddle
Because even if we win this tug of war and even the score...humanity struggles
There's a desperate need of blood for what's been uncovered under the rubble
Some of them dug for answers in the mess...but the rest were looking for trouble

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop Is Out Of Stock
Hang Myself...Half Mast

Makeshift Patriot
The Flag Shop is Out of Stock
I hang myself, don't waive your rights with your flags

"I'll show you which culture to punp your fist at and what foot is right to kiss
We don't know who the culprit is yet...but he looks like this
We know who the heros are. Not the xenophobes who act hard
"We taught that dog to squat.
How dare he do that shit in our own back yard!"

Wow!

Did you write that yourself, slothrop, because I liked it very much.
Even if you didn't write it I liked it very much. I just want to give
credit to the author.

Quote from: illusionI don't think there's ever been a military that was good at being a doctor. It kind of goes against the purpose for which they were created in the first place. Which is to be the most effective killing machine possible.

jack the ripper was  a military doctor.

at least according to hollywood, and if i learned in anything in highschool it was that movies never lie, at least judging by the frequency of their presentation in classes...

Slothrop didn't write that...it's a Sage Francis song...one of my favorites...

8)

::scribble scribble::

S-a-g-e F-r-a-n-c-s-i-s

Right. Thanks, GOAT.

::runs off to fire up the iTunes music store::

you've got one too many esses in there, gnimbley....

8)

indeed it is sage, hes also the bloke who wrote the tag im using. possibly the best writer ever. other favorites are the specialist,cafe girl,you ain,t got no style by non-prophets(sage francis and jo beats) but all is worth listening to.