Kind of out of the blue, but you spags are the most logical and, quite honestly, realistically thinking people I know.
HYPOTHETICALLY (seriously, don't dig too deep into this shit, it's just a question I'm pondering)
What's worse on a child:
A) A parent suiciding themself, OR
B) A child watching their parent suffer for their whole life, wondering when and if it's going to happen, and in those years, watching their parent degrade and suffer the entire way
My uneducated guess is B.
A, they can grieve and get over it after some undisclosed amount of time, and live on knowing their parent is finally at ease and content and FREE (from their depression, or ailment that wants this kind of thing, or whatever), while B, they would constantly have this worry in their hearts. "Will it be today? Tomorrow? Next week?"
What are your thoughts PD?
A.
B would only be worse if they had a slow but terminal illness. That's not necessarily a logical assessment other than you're going to die from it anyway and it's going to suck the whole way there. Suicide is still the taking of human life, which I find repugnant in all but a very narrow set of circumstances that necessitate it.
But I can't say that logic should apply in this situation. The kid's going to be really fucking upset either way. I don't think that the maturity to even process this hypothetical even exists until well into teenage years. But seeing them try to at least fight back and stay alive would probably be preferable.
From personal experience and via friends/family, I would suggest the question to be somewhat moot.
It's like asking if it's worse to get stabbed in the left or right eye. Both fuck you up and cause considerable distress, trying to determine if one is somehow worse is a little difficult and irrelevant when you've got a bit of metal in your face.
The problem is that there is no really right or wrong answer for something like this. Both cause suffering and pain to the child in different ways. Plus there's a lot of factors involved, as there's no guarantee this child has the understanding that their parent is depressed and suicidal. And if they did understand, why aren't they getting involved to ensure the safety of said parent?
Toughie question.
Hmmm, it is difficult to compare two so disparate and ill-defined hypotheticals.
Situation A depends on the people that take care of the kid afterwards, if those are good at that sort of thing then this is the better option, if not then not.
Situation B depends on the way the not-suiciding parent handles the stress. Common responses to extreme stress are stupidity and violence.
Table to illustrate the situation where 1 is best and 4 is worst.
Context: Good Bad
Situation:
A 2 4
B 1 3
A. My parents are a bit of an experiment on this. My maternal grandfather was bipolar and alcoholic, and killed himself when my mother was youngish. He may have left his body in the bathroom for one of her sisters to find, I'm not sure. Mom gets really skeevy when I ask about him, so I don't anymore. My mom, and all of her sisters (large Irish Catholic family), all have some level of depression, anxiety, and trauma. Probably at least partially genetic, but I wouldn't bet a kid on it. Don't underestimate the power of trauma on a child's developing mind.
My biological paternal grandmother was also an alcoholic, and while never diagnosed, my dad's family thinks she may have been self-treating for bipolar (also: large Irish Catholic family). She and paternal grandfather divorced after my dad's cohort was grown. My dad and all of his brothers, aside from being engineers, all seem neurotypical. We went to her house after she died, and she definitely was not - a hoarder, if nothing else.
Whichever kid has a worse support system when it happens, will suffer more.
Both situations are shitty. Any kid faced with one, will probably feel that the other one would be better, because that's not the one they're dealing with. Any kid that doesn't get stability and love in the wake of that will be fucked up for a long time because of it.
This is a really grim question.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 14, 2014, 07:36:50 AM
Kind of out of the blue, but you spags are the most logical and, quite honestly, realistically thinking people I know.
HYPOTHETICALLY (seriously, don't dig too deep into this shit, it's just a question I'm pondering)
What's worse on a child:
A) A parent suiciding themself, OR
B) A child watching their parent suffer for their whole life, wondering when and if it's going to happen, and in those years, watching their parent degrade and suffer the entire way
My uneducated guess is B.
A, they can grieve and get over it after some undisclosed amount of time, and live on knowing their parent is finally at ease and content and FREE (from their depression, or ailment that wants this kind of thing, or whatever), while B, they would constantly have this worry in their hearts. "Will it be today? Tomorrow? Next week?"
What are your thoughts PD?
A. Children of suicides tend to be suicides.
As a product of B, I think A would be more damaging for a number of reasons.
I've yet to meet a person with depressive tendencies that doesn't go through cycles. While they vary between individuals, and the elevated moods don't always equal out the depressed ones, there are periods that are better than others. Those periods, however brief, are an important thing to be able to look to.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2014, 06:13:57 PM
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 14, 2014, 07:36:50 AM
Kind of out of the blue, but you spags are the most logical and, quite honestly, realistically thinking people I know.
HYPOTHETICALLY (seriously, don't dig too deep into this shit, it's just a question I'm pondering)
What's worse on a child:
A) A parent suiciding themself, OR
B) A child watching their parent suffer for their whole life, wondering when and if it's going to happen, and in those years, watching their parent degrade and suffer the entire way
My uneducated guess is B.
A, they can grieve and get over it after some undisclosed amount of time, and live on knowing their parent is finally at ease and content and FREE (from their depression, or ailment that wants this kind of thing, or whatever), while B, they would constantly have this worry in their hearts. "Will it be today? Tomorrow? Next week?"
What are your thoughts PD?
A. Children of suicides tend to be suicides.
I'm not sure I understand this answer.
Do you mean the children tend to suicide themselves also?
Cause I've never seen that happen (not to say it couldn't)
I know this is a weird ass question, but I'm curious because I wonder how it affects the kids involved.
A friend of mine with children, two friends of mine's mothers, and my grandfather all committed suicide.
My understanding was that children of people who commit suicide are more likely to commit suicide, not that they necessarily do.
A.
Because you never really understand WHY, especially if it's not explained to you, over and over, until you understand and agree with the decision.
And it's gonna haunt you forever.
Fuck.
A is worse.
Is the way the parent handles their suffering transparent to the child? Because while a suffering parent is terrible for the child, I imagine in many cases the full extent of the suffering is invisible to a child whose empathy and similar will still be developing. A dead parent is probably a more simple concept to digest.
Though I don't know from first hand experience, I have not heard many children of suicidal parents express that they know their parent is at ease and free from their depression. If there's any recurring theme, it's the understanding that 'my parent left me'.
I don't know at what age I got a proper handle on the impact of depression on either of my parents, but it would have been easy to be oblivious to, or understood as something entirely different to what it was.
I don't know, all I have is "I know this one guy..." and "My friend..."
But this has a ring of truth and is likely the correct motorcycle:
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 14, 2014, 06:05:21 PM
Whichever kid has a worse support system when it happens, will suffer more.
Both situations are shitty. Any kid faced with one, will probably feel that the other one would be better, because that's not the one they're dealing with. Any kid that doesn't get stability and love in the wake of that will be fucked up for a long time because of it.
This is a really grim question.
I think I have the most unpopular opinion.
I feel like B would be worse.
Growing up, watching a parent struggle with depression, seeing them fall apart.
I think A would just be a moment of grief and then they'd be able to move on and get over it?
How does a person deal with watching someone hurt for no reason. Trying to comfort them and there's nothing they can say or do to make anything better?
I dunno. I have a weird way of thinking I guess.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 15, 2014, 01:07:32 PM
I think I have the most unpopular opinion.
I feel like B would be worse.
Growing up, watching a parent struggle with depression, seeing them fall apart.
I think A would just be a moment of grief and then they'd be able to move on and get over it?
How does a person deal with watching someone hurt for no reason. Trying to comfort them and there's nothing they can say or do to make anything better?
I dunno. I have a weird way of thinking I guess.
A moment of grief, followed by a lifetime of "why would mom/dad kill him/herself while I was still alive?"
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 15, 2014, 01:07:32 PM
I think I have the most unpopular opinion.
I feel like B would be worse.
Growing up, watching a parent struggle with depression, seeing them fall apart.
I think A would just be a moment of grief and then they'd be able to move on and get over it?
How does a person deal with watching someone hurt for no reason. Trying to comfort them and there's nothing they can say or do to make anything better?
I dunno. I have a weird way of thinking I guess.
Except that the moment of grief lasts forever.
True, true.
But in a sense, you can still grieve for someone alive as long as they are suffering.
Or maybe I'm alone in that.
I know that I can be almost unbearable for my family sometimes.
But I guess there are those good times when I'm on an upswing and they get to enjoy me being alive, right?
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 15, 2014, 04:37:51 PM
True, true.
But in a sense, you can still grieve for someone alive as long as they are suffering.
Or maybe I'm alone in that.
I know that I can be almost unbearable for my family sometimes.
But I guess there are those good times when I'm on an upswing and they get to enjoy me being alive, right?
They're still around, right?
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 15, 2014, 04:37:51 PM
True, true.
But in a sense, you can still grieve for someone alive as long as they are suffering.
Or maybe I'm alone in that.
I know that I can be almost unbearable for my family sometimes.
But I guess there are those good times when I'm on an upswing and they get to enjoy me being alive, right?
They haven't charged for the door recently, have they?
Your perceptions are most likely fucked. Just saying.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 15, 2014, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 15, 2014, 04:37:51 PM
True, true.
But in a sense, you can still grieve for someone alive as long as they are suffering.
Or maybe I'm alone in that.
I know that I can be almost unbearable for my family sometimes.
But I guess there are those good times when I'm on an upswing and they get to enjoy me being alive, right?
They haven't charged for the door recently, have they?
Your perceptions are most likely fucked. Just saying.
This. When you're depressed you're unbearable to yourself. People around you want to help pull you out of that. Skewed perception is a part of the whole thing.
Carnival is in this thread, right now. Weird and deliberately nasty post concerning the OP in 3...2...1...
I'm bipolar myself and I've been involved with a lot of depressive people. Lucky for me none of them were my parents but I do understand the difficulty of caring deeply for someone and having her be miserable and being unable to do anything about it. One of the depressive people that I was involved with flirted with suicide. We ended things years ago, and we haven't talked in years, I do however still think about her because she had a big impact on my life. I wasn't able to make her happy, it made me feel helpless and when she was down she would sometimes lash out at me and make me feel as if her misery was my own fault. I was entangled with her in a relationship which wasn't healthy for either of us but which I was completely devoted to. She ended things with me and that put me in a downward spiral that led to being institutionalized after an attempt at suicide myself.
That said I am still glad that she broke things off with me rather than with life in general. I would have blamed myself (I did for the breakup as well, but being at fault for a breakup is a much easier burden than being at fault for a death) and I would probably have tried much harder to make sure that I was properly dead. I know that my own bipolar is sometimes hard on my family. I'm fairly high functioning so it's not a huge burden but I recognize that it is one. On the other hand I can't imagine how devastated they would be if I were to kill myself.
I hope you can pull through and keep functioning but if you really truly believe that suicide is the best option, for the good of your family as well as yourself then alienate your family first. Alienate them so thoroughly that they will not even hear of the news of your death. You will be abandoning them either way and a "regular" abandonment is far less cruel than a suicide that they can blame themselves for.
Quote from: Pergamos on April 15, 2014, 09:40:57 PM
I hope you can pull through and keep functioning but if you really truly believe that suicide is the best option, for the good of your family as well as yourself then alienate your family first. Alienate them so thoroughly that they will not even hear of the news of your death. You will be abandoning them either way and a "regular" abandonment is far less cruel than a suicide that they can blame themselves for.
For the life of me, I cannot find an emote appropriate for this.
Not comparing you to him, but this comment ranks up there with Babylon Horuv's "If my daughter were raped, I hope they kill her so she doesn't have to live with it."
Just saying.
Perhaps that's an incredibly fucked up thing for you to post. Did you think at all about that last bit before you posted it?
Pergamos not perhaps. Damn autocorrect.
What the actual fuck?
Maybe it sounded better in his head.
Killing yourself is abandoning your family and if you are going to abandon them you should do so in the least painful way to them. Not that abandoning your family is ok anyway, but people do it all the time. Most of them by simply running off and not keeping in touch.
(http://www.vh1.com/celebrity/bwe/images/2010/09/PETE-EYE-CLOCK-GIF.gif)
Quote from: Pergamos on April 15, 2014, 10:04:49 PM
Killing yourself is abandoning your family and if you are going to abandon them you should do so in the least painful way to them. Not that abandoning your family is ok anyway, but people do it all the time. Most of them by simply running off and not keeping in touch.
Killing yourself IS an abandonment, but that's not ALL it is.
Exactly. It's a lot more than an abandonment. If the question is which hurts the family less, abandoning the family hurts less. If you really can't tolerate living and it's gotten so bad that you need to off yourself and you want to do so in the way that hurts your family the least get away from your family.
Quote from: Pergamos on April 15, 2014, 10:37:24 PM
Exactly. It's a lot more than an abandonment. If the question is which hurts the family less, abandoning the family hurts less. If you really can't tolerate living and it's gotten so bad that you need to off yourself and you want to do so in the way that hurts your family the least get away from your family.
The primary motivation of a suicide is not abandonment. It is to end one's own life. Walking away from your family doesn't accomplish the primary motive, and if someone were thinking clearly enough to spend YEARS screwing up family relations, they wouldn't be considering suicide in the first place.
It doesn't take years to screw up relations. Get out, tell them all you never want to see them again and that you are starting a new life, then go somewhere you won't be found and finish yourself off.
I'm not saying that's the thing to do. Toughing it out and being there for them is the thing to do, but from what Squid is saying it doesn't sound like that's really possible.
Abandoning your family and driving off into the sunset is cruel, leaving them a dead body to find, or having the police tell them mommy killed herself is ten times as cruel.
Suicided human = Zero possibility of things turning out well for you.
Living human = The possibility definitely exists of things turning out well for you, no matter how small.
Quote from: Pergamos on April 15, 2014, 10:44:17 PM
It doesn't take years to screw up relations. Get out, tell them all you never want to see them again and that you are starting a new life, then go somewhere you won't be found and finish yourself off.
I'm not saying that's the thing to do. Toughing it out and being there for them is the thing to do, but from what Squid is saying it doesn't sound like that's really possible.
Abandoning your family and driving off into the sunset is cruel, leaving them a dead body to find, or having the police tell them mommy killed herself is ten times as cruel.
You should stop now.
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/confused_lion_king.gif)
Pergamos. Stop talking. Also you're kind off an idiot.
Perg. What the fuck. Honestly.
I'm gonna just assume he was all fucked up on something and let this one slide.
Quote from: Pergamos on April 15, 2014, 09:40:57 PM
I'm bipolar myself and I've been involved with a lot of depressive people. Lucky for me none of them were my parents but I do understand the difficulty of caring deeply for someone and having her be miserable and being unable to do anything about it. One of the depressive people that I was involved with flirted with suicide. We ended things years ago, and we haven't talked in years, I do however still think about her because she had a big impact on my life. I wasn't able to make her happy, it made me feel helpless and when she was down she would sometimes lash out at me and make me feel as if her misery was my own fault. I was entangled with her in a relationship which wasn't healthy for either of us but which I was completely devoted to. She ended things with me and that put me in a downward spiral that led to being institutionalized after an attempt at suicide myself.
That said I am still glad that she broke things off with me rather than with life in general. I would have blamed myself (I did for the breakup as well, but being at fault for a breakup is a much easier burden than being at fault for a death) and I would probably have tried much harder to make sure that I was properly dead. I know that my own bipolar is sometimes hard on my family. I'm fairly high functioning so it's not a huge burden but I recognize that it is one. On the other hand I can't imagine how devastated they would be if I were to kill myself.
I hope you can pull through and keep functioning but if you really truly believe that suicide is the best option, for the good of your family as well as yourself then alienate your family first. Alienate them so thoroughly that they will not even hear of the news of your death. You will be abandoning them either way and a "regular" abandonment is far less cruel than a suicide that they can blame themselves for.
Apparently you didn't read my post, as suicide is not an option, ya dumbass.
If you had read anything correctly, you would have seen that I was making a comparison to people that I know who have had to live through that.
Christ. Fucking read.
The fuck is this guy??
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f45/Squidoid667/thefuckisthis_zps15fb13a6.png)
Oh, dear. He's woken Squidzilla.
(For what it's worth, I read it wrong too, and was worried.)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2014, 03:55:16 AM
Oh, dear. He's woken Squidzilla.
(For what it's worth, I read it wrong too, and was worried.)
It was still an incredibly fucked up thing for Pergamos to say regardless of what Squiddy actually said or how it was interpreted by people who aren't Pergamos.
Fuck you, Pergamos.
You're wrong in ways I can't even describe.
It's kind of a fucked up thing for anyone to say to anyone.
Geeze.
Regardless, there's a lot to say about how fucked up depression can make you perceive your whole environment.
So much so that I wasn't even offended/bothered by what that jaggoff said, but more I feel sorry for his skin having to house the dumb junk and juice that makes up his person. Like a colostomy bag. Poor damn bag was created just to hold shit.
Damn. Now I feel bad for colostomy bags.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 16, 2014, 04:23:54 AM
It's kind of a fucked up thing for anyone to say to anyone.
Geeze.
Regardless, there's a lot to say about how fucked up depression can make you perceive your whole environment.
So much so that I wasn't even offended/bothered by what that jaggoff said, but more I feel sorry for his skin having to house the dumb junk and juice that makes up his person. Like a colostomy bag. Poor damn bag was created just to hold shit.
Damn. Now I feel bad for colostomy bags.
:lulz:
This is why we love you.
But yeah, I don't know what dude was thinking. What he said could be summed up as "I'm not saying that Squiddy should commit suicide but if she did, she should be a total asshole to her family first so they won't care as much. Huh. People didn't like that. Let me rephrase. I'm not saying that Squiddy should commit suicide but it sounds like she should, so she should be a total asshole to her family so they won't care as much."
I kinda hope Roger's right that he was on something because I can't even begin to wrap my head around how someone would think that there was anything ok with any of that.
As retarded as it sounds, I've heard of cases where the depressed family member alienates themselves.
To "ease the family's pain" when they finally pull that trigger (or whatever). Or that's what they say.
It's just dumb that he thought I meant myself since I made it loud and clear that I did not.
This is also a tough topic for people to think about. But I know a lot of people affected by it that I always wonder, but I'll be damned if I'm ever gonna stir that pot, unless they ask me to, which they haven't.
Hell we never even asked about my grandfather. Like the guy was just born, then he died one day.
That's it. I had to force info out of my mom after she divorced my dad. Even then she didn't even want to say.
Apparently he had black lung or some shit from asbestos and the steel mills and was really sick. He was unhealthy and deteriorating. He was also a depressed alcoholic. He decided that instead of being a burden on my nana and their boys that he'd just shoot himself. Or that's what I was told and could be utter bullshit as well. Who knows!
Oh life.
Quote from: (Doktor (Nephew Twiddleton (Twid)) Blight) on April 16, 2014, 04:15:45 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2014, 03:55:16 AM
Oh, dear. He's woken Squidzilla.
(For what it's worth, I read it wrong too, and was worried.)
It was still an incredibly fucked up thing for Pergamos to say regardless of what Squiddy actually said or how it was interpreted by people who aren't Pergamos.
Yes, it was. But it's entirely possible that he didn't understand just who he was dealing with here. It's not like Squid COULD kill herself, even if she tried. She'd just regrow everthing and have to
start over. The Seminole Indians had legends about her, and those legends scared them so badly they asked whitey to drain the swamp for them. The government reluctantly agreed, and hushed it all up with some nonsense about "flood control".
All officials responsible were found dead of harpoon-related causes. And not the explodey kind. No.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2014, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: (Doktor (Nephew Twiddleton (Twid)) Blight) on April 16, 2014, 04:15:45 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2014, 03:55:16 AM
Oh, dear. He's woken Squidzilla.
(For what it's worth, I read it wrong too, and was worried.)
It was still an incredibly fucked up thing for Pergamos to say regardless of what Squiddy actually said or how it was interpreted by people who aren't Pergamos.
Yes, it was. But it's entirely possible that he didn't understand just who he was dealing with here. It's not like Squid COULD kill herself, even if she tried. She'd just regrow everthing and have to start over. The Seminole Indians had legends about her, and those legends scared them so badly they asked whitey to drain the swamp for them. The government reluctantly agreed, and hushed it all up with some nonsense about "flood control".
All officials responsible were found dead of harpoon-related causes. And not the explodey kind. No.
Someday, I hope to have horrorpowers like Nigel and Squiddy.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2014, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: (Doktor (Nephew Twiddleton (Twid)) Blight) on April 16, 2014, 04:15:45 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2014, 03:55:16 AM
Oh, dear. He's woken Squidzilla.
(For what it's worth, I read it wrong too, and was worried.)
It was still an incredibly fucked up thing for Pergamos to say regardless of what Squiddy actually said or how it was interpreted by people who aren't Pergamos.
Yes, it was. But it's entirely possible that he didn't understand just who he was dealing with here. It's not like Squid COULD kill herself, even if she tried. She'd just regrow everthing and have to start over. The Seminole Indians had legends about her, and those legends scared them so badly they asked whitey to drain the swamp for them. The government reluctantly agreed, and hushed it all up with some nonsense about "flood control".
All officials responsible were found dead of harpoon-related causes. And not the explodey kind. No.
There's a reason all the alligators hot-footed it to lake Jessup and out of my area.
The Seminole chief was not held at Castillo De San Marcos, just his
body. I had the important stuff.
I moved to central Florida, the swamps moved south.
Ask me about my exploding mosquitoes.
Quote from: (Doktor (Nephew Twiddleton (Twid)) Blight) on April 16, 2014, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2014, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: (Doktor (Nephew Twiddleton (Twid)) Blight) on April 16, 2014, 04:15:45 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2014, 03:55:16 AM
Oh, dear. He's woken Squidzilla.
(For what it's worth, I read it wrong too, and was worried.)
It was still an incredibly fucked up thing for Pergamos to say regardless of what Squiddy actually said or how it was interpreted by people who aren't Pergamos.
Yes, it was. But it's entirely possible that he didn't understand just who he was dealing with here. It's not like Squid COULD kill herself, even if she tried. She'd just regrow everthing and have to start over. The Seminole Indians had legends about her, and those legends scared them so badly they asked whitey to drain the swamp for them. The government reluctantly agreed, and hushed it all up with some nonsense about "flood control".
All officials responsible were found dead of harpoon-related causes. And not the explodey kind. No.
Someday, I hope to have horrorpowers like Nigel and Squiddy.
Squidy can, when riled, roll her face off from around her mouth until there's just a skull screaming at you with the skin hanging on the back like a hoodie. Clocks run backwards. Rivers turn to blood. All of my money turns to Necronomicoin and starts singing in my pocket, ancient tunes by like Clauda Rogers and Boxcar Willie. The stars are right for the duration of her anger, and you know what that means.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.She can drink American "craft" beer and
not regurgitate it, yet she isn't from the Midwest or Providence.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 16, 2014, 03:01:52 PM
Ask me about my exploding mosquitoes.
Mama raised no fools. Nu uh, this ain't my first rodeo.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 15, 2014, 01:07:32 PM
I think I have the most unpopular opinion.
I feel like B would be worse.
Growing up, watching a parent struggle with depression, seeing them fall apart.
I think A would just be a moment of grief and then they'd be able to move on and get over it?
How does a person deal with watching someone hurt for no reason. Trying to comfort them and there's nothing they can say or do to make anything better?
I dunno. I have a weird way of thinking I guess.
A is abandonment. Children recover better from abuse than they do from abandonment.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 15, 2014, 04:37:51 PM
True, true.
But in a sense, you can still grieve for someone alive as long as they are suffering.
Or maybe I'm alone in that.
I know that I can be almost unbearable for my family sometimes.
But I guess there are those good times when I'm on an upswing and they get to enjoy me being alive, right?
What if we turn that question around. You have a child.
Would you rather your child committed suicide, or was alive but depressed?
If you knew that a large percentage of cases of depression spontaneously go into remission, would your answer be different?
Sorry I missed the whole Pergamos thing.
He phrased it horribly, but he kind of has a point. Unfortunately, people who commit suicide are generally far too self-absorbed to think that far ahead, or recognize the impact their suicide will have on the people they leave behind.
No, not really. Because not only do you have the fact that you were abandoned, not only do you never have the chance to figure out why, and spend who knows how long blaming yourself, you find yourself wondering what you could have done that was so horrible that you drove someone who you thought loved you away. THAT, you get to wrestle with for however long it takes, and THEN you deal with not only the loss, but the question of what you could have done to stop it, if only you'd been there, if only you'd tried harder, if only you'd seen...
Quote from: Luna on April 18, 2014, 02:18:26 AM
No, not really. Because not only do you have the fact that you were abandoned, not only do you never have the chance to figure out why, and spend who knows how long blaming yourself, you find yourself wondering what you could have done that was so horrible that you drove someone who you thought loved you away. THAT, you get to wrestle with for however long it takes, and THEN you deal with not only the loss, but the question of what you could have done to stop it, if only you'd been there, if only you'd tried harder, if only you'd seen...
Either way it's fucking horrible. The only advantage I can see to alienating your family and then abandoning them is that it allows them to write you off as an asshole, which, trust me, they will want to do even if you weren't, because suicide is a complete and utter asshole thing to do to people who love you. The anger after a loved one commits suicide is deep and frightening, alongside the self-recrimination, guilt, and unreconcilable regret that never goes away.
Of course, his suggestion of disappearing so thoroughly that the family never knows of the suicide is, in this day and age, utterly impractical and therefore moot. But I do understand where he's coming from. If you're going to be such a self-centered prick as to kill yourself when you have people who love and rely on you, maybe just go all the way and let them see firsthand what a fucking total assplug you are so that they hate you BEFORE you die instead of AFTER.
Since you're going to fuck them up irrevocably either way.
Being a child of situation B and having fond memories of coming home to find one parent or another lying unconscious, barely breathing, in piles of their own shit, vomit, and alcohol . . . I think B is probably worst during the prolonged event and A is worse in the aftermath.
There are so many what-ifs and what-could-have-beens if your parents terminate before you really get to experience the full spectrum of their cray-cray. It's easy to put them on a pedestal and pine away for the idea image of someone you never knew. It can fuck up your future.
Situation B, if you get through it without going crazy, seems easier to handle. There are some of the what-ifs and if-onlies but only in regards to wishing you were adopted so there was a less chance of ending up with the chemical dependance, dementia, cancer, and raging redneckitis. There sure the hell isn't any possible way to put the parents on a pedestal and idolize them. Granted you may end up a little socially stunted and awkward and the 'tough-love' induced blunt head trauma may leave you permanently dizzy and with poor peripheral vision . . . but at least you don't have any illusions about where you stand with your folks.
Quote from: Nigel on April 18, 2014, 03:50:04 AM
Quote from: Luna on April 18, 2014, 02:18:26 AM
No, not really. Because not only do you have the fact that you were abandoned, not only do you never have the chance to figure out why, and spend who knows how long blaming yourself, you find yourself wondering what you could have done that was so horrible that you drove someone who you thought loved you away. THAT, you get to wrestle with for however long it takes, and THEN you deal with not only the loss, but the question of what you could have done to stop it, if only you'd been there, if only you'd tried harder, if only you'd seen...
Either way it's fucking horrible. The only advantage I can see to alienating your family and then abandoning them is that it allows them to write you off as an asshole, which, trust me, they will want to do even if you weren't, because suicide is a complete and utter asshole thing to do to people who love you. The anger after a loved one commits suicide is deep and frightening, alongside the self-recrimination, guilt, and unreconcilable regret that never goes away.
My mother's godson committed suicide. I didn't know him very well, but it was my mother's godson, so I went with her and she was pretty upset. He was a teenager. The line for his wake was around the parking lot. Mom and I were in line for an hour and a half. About 20 minutes into it, she said to me, "if only he could see how many people would show up for this, maybe he wouldn't have done it." And you know what, she was right.
I myself have a pretty complex relationship with my parents. I'm not sure either of them realize how complex it is. But I would be absolutely gutted if either one of them offed themselves. I don't have to like them to love them unconditionally. And I'm saying this as a 32 year old.
I think there are a ton of confounding factors that make it a non-straightforward question, as you bring up... is the parent an alcohol or drug addict? Are they abusive? Those issues completely change the equation. They don't mean that it necessarily makes suicide easier or harder for the child to handle, they just add to the complexity of the trauma.
I mean, "Daddy killed himself because he molested me" is not going to make things easier on the abandoned and abused child.
So, what it comes down to, I guess, is yes, I would rather my parents suffer than die. Because at least they're still alive and have some glimmer of hope. And they're both stubborn fucking assholes so there's no excuse there. I wouldn't forgive them for it. I'd never get over it.
Quote from: (Doktor (Nephew Twiddleton (Twid)) Blight) on April 18, 2014, 06:19:37 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 18, 2014, 03:50:04 AM
Quote from: Luna on April 18, 2014, 02:18:26 AM
No, not really. Because not only do you have the fact that you were abandoned, not only do you never have the chance to figure out why, and spend who knows how long blaming yourself, you find yourself wondering what you could have done that was so horrible that you drove someone who you thought loved you away. THAT, you get to wrestle with for however long it takes, and THEN you deal with not only the loss, but the question of what you could have done to stop it, if only you'd been there, if only you'd tried harder, if only you'd seen...
Either way it's fucking horrible. The only advantage I can see to alienating your family and then abandoning them is that it allows them to write you off as an asshole, which, trust me, they will want to do even if you weren't, because suicide is a complete and utter asshole thing to do to people who love you. The anger after a loved one commits suicide is deep and frightening, alongside the self-recrimination, guilt, and unreconcilable regret that never goes away.
My mother's godson committed suicide. I didn't know him very well, but it was my mother's godson, so I went with her and she was pretty upset. He was a teenager. The line for his wake was around the parking lot. Mom and I were in line for an hour and a half. About 20 minutes into it, she said to me, "if only he could see how many people would show up for this, maybe he wouldn't have done it." And you know what, she was right.
I myself have a pretty complex relationship with my parents. I'm not sure either of them realize how complex it is. But I would be absolutely gutted if either one of them offed themselves. I don't have to like them to love them unconditionally. And I'm saying this as a 32 year old.
She was probably wrong. Because people who commit suicide are so detached from reality that it doesn't matter if they know ten thousand grieving people will show up to their funeral. All they know is that they don't care enough about anything or anyone to stick around.
Quote from: (Doktor (Nephew Twiddleton (Twid)) Blight) on April 18, 2014, 06:48:04 AM
So, what it comes down to, I guess, is yes, I would rather my parents suffer than die. Because at least they're still alive and have some glimmer of hope. And they're both stubborn fucking assholes so there's no excuse there. I wouldn't forgive them for it. I'd never get over it.
Suicide is the ultimate expression not of despair, but of terminal selfishness.
You bring up good points there, Nigel.
You also brought up an excellent point of what if it was your kid.
If my parents killed themselves, I'd never forgive them.
If my kids killed themselves, I'd never forgive myself.
Either way it's not my fault, but that's an interesting distinction.
I struggle with my own shit sometimes. There have been a few times, and there are still occasional times where I'm just like yeah, just chuck me in a box and get rid of me. But probably the most profound though I had against that was how would that fuck up Twidsister. And this was before those genes started messing with her head. I couldn't do that to her before when she was a kid, and I definitely couldn't do it now that I know that she goes through those same bouts (she turns 18 this year). Before it was like, how could someone explain that to her, and now it's what sort of example would that set? I wouldn't want her to do that, even if I wasn't around to mourn it.
It's interesting to see so many different sides of this.
Nigel, did you have people close to you self terminate? You seem very bitter and angry about it.
I never considered the ones I know to have been selfish assholes. I sort of sympathized. In a weird kind of way.
I understood a couple of them, like my friend with the child (which is where all of this stemmed from. I was thinking about her the other day).
She was in an accident and in a coma for a couple of months. A small portion of her brain had to be removed due to swelling, and one day she woke up and said "Where's my bike. Shit. Where the hell am I?", like nothing had happened. However, she suffered a downward spiral of depression a short while after. It went on for a couple of years. No smiles, no happiness, not even moments of "ok". She truly just suffered under a dark cloud until one day she ended it.
I feel horrible for her family and her child, but at the same time I never saw her as a selfish asshole, but as someone who just couldn't live inside her own head anymore. I felt sympathy for her. I felt like she was finally free. I'm sure her family thinks much differently, but it was hard for everyone to watch her suffer, and honestly, I think there was a little relief from a few. Her grandmother said "She doesn't have to suffer anymore" at her memorial service.
As far as comparing it to my own child, I can't even fathom the thought. Meaning I can't even think about that. The idea of him even being heartbroken over a girl makes me want to Hulk out on this town. I love that boy more than words can even say (obviously), so really, I can't use that to contrast, cause the mere thought makes me die inside.
When one of my best friends blew his brains out in 2004 because his girlfriend said no to his proposal (see also: laughed in his face,) I didn't react with empathy or sadness, I reacted with anger. In fact, I think the first thing I said when my mom told me what happened was, "I'm gonna kill him!" despite it being, well, too late for that. Another friend from high school did suffer from depression for years before he finally succeeded with suicide. That...that was a little less harsh feeling, imo. Because he did seek help, and his friends were always there for him. It made me feel terrible, though, terrible in that there was no way I could have saved him. He made up his choice years before he finally did it, he just hid it well.
Circumstances always apply.
I have stuff to say about this, but I'm posting via phone.
Short form: Dad decided not to continue cancer treatment, though he knew it would end his life sooner. So he both suffered AND killed himself.
Yes, I have, and yes, I am.
Consider that for most kids who are well-bonded to a parent, that parent is the love of their life. The idea of a parent dying, for most young children, is as unthinkable as the idea of losing a child is to post parents.
Your friend who was brain damaged was, well, brain damaged. That can cause no significant personality changes at all, or it can be huge. Who knows?
I understand that people who are depressed are literally incapable of seeing outside their depression, and to a large degree are also incapable of doing most of the things that are clinically known to help lift depression, but I still think that suicide is a complete dick move.
I do support physician-assisted suicide for terminal patients, though.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on April 18, 2014, 06:14:12 PM
It's interesting to see so many different sides of this.
Nigel, did you have people close to you self terminate? You seem very bitter and angry about it.
I never considered the ones I know to have been selfish assholes. I sort of sympathized. In a weird kind of way.
I understood a couple of them, like my friend with the child (which is where all of this stemmed from. I was thinking about her the other day).
She was in an accident and in a coma for a couple of months. A small portion of her brain had to be removed due to swelling, and one day she woke up and said "Where's my bike. Shit. Where the hell am I?", like nothing had happened. However, she suffered a downward spiral of depression a short while after. It went on for a couple of years. No smiles, no happiness, not even moments of "ok". She truly just suffered under a dark cloud until one day she ended it.
I feel horrible for her family and her child, but at the same time I never saw her as a selfish asshole, but as someone who just couldn't live inside her own head anymore. I felt sympathy for her. I felt like she was finally free. I'm sure her family thinks much differently, but it was hard for everyone to watch her suffer, and honestly, I think there was a little relief from a few. Her grandmother said "She doesn't have to suffer anymore" at her memorial service.
As far as comparing it to my own child, I can't even fathom the thought. Meaning I can't even think about that. The idea of him even being heartbroken over a girl makes me want to Hulk out on this town. I love that boy more than words can even say (obviously), so really, I can't use that to contrast, cause the mere thought makes me die inside.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 18, 2014, 08:11:11 PM
I have stuff to say about this, but I'm posting via phone.
Short form: Dad decided not to continue cancer treatment, though he knew it would end his life sooner. So he both suffered AND killed himself.
:sad:
I am truly sorry.