Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 05, 2014, 03:25:15 am

Title: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 05, 2014, 03:25:15 am
I just today realized that I have an issue with the word "thug". Even though the lady who used it on my FB page tonight wasn't referring specifically to black people, and was in fact talking about insular, ignorant, and often poor/rural people, I totally just had that gut reaction that you get when people say "porch monkey" (though I have to confess, I was sheltered enough that I didn't know what that term meant until I was 18).

Now, FB lady is seriously one of the nicest people on earth. I mean, she would never, ever, EVER say the word "thug" in a way that intended any racial connotations. And she's older, so for her, if it DID have racial connotations, it would be way more appropriate for Dimo to be offended that me (that cultural context thing is something those Tumblr twits would do well to gain a grasp on). So there is no way I'm going to say anything to her about it, because it just wouldn't be appropriate. And, of course, the etymological origins lie far away from this continent, in India, so it certainly has nothing to do with the deep history of the word.

So I'm just here, ruminating, and wondering what it means that I have a gut reaction to this word, and whether it is at least partly because of a larger shift in the cultural context of the way it's used.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Salty on March 05, 2014, 03:37:16 am
I wouldn't say I have a strong reaction to it, but I do find it strange and think about it quite a bit.

It is very weird. On one hand, the definition of a common criminal, or someone who uses violence to get what they want, or as a part of how they earn a living is something that doesn't make me think of black people. I actually think of italian mobsters first. But really anyone who uses brute force to acheive their aims.

According to urban dictionary, Tupac meant it specifically as someone who lives a life of struggle with no hope, more or less. Whicb, is an altogether different thing. And I can understand why some would carry that term with pride.

Then you have people who hear rappers and people who like rap use it in one context and assume another.

Like my grandmother who once said, "All they ever talk about is killin'" when I tried to listen to a hip hope station. Killing Me Softly came on and she said, "See, I told you."

 :lulz:
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: The Johnny on March 05, 2014, 03:43:26 am

Well, im far off from your context, but what comes to mind when thug is said is:

A) Blackwater mercenaries

B) Black ghetto gangbangers

So, although Blackwater probably is predominantly white for all i know, its interesting how in both cases the word "black" is in there, so maybe theres something semiotically going on.  :?
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Salty on March 05, 2014, 03:45:22 am
I suppose I usually think of the CIA as well when then word comes to mind.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: East Coast Hustle on March 05, 2014, 04:36:01 am
The idea that "thug" is a racially-loaded term is new to me, but I'm now aware that it is frequently used that way. I have always used it in the context of "someone who's primary purpose is intimidation or violence".
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Ben Shapiro on March 05, 2014, 04:43:04 am
"Thug" is now being used by teabaggers, and the GOP in place of "Nigger". Just letting everyone here know my observation. I sort of picked up on it last year, and after the Trevon case it reinforced my suspicion. Don't know is it's akin to "you people".
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Ben Shapiro on March 05, 2014, 04:44:50 am
The idea that "thug" is a racially-loaded term is new to me, but I'm now aware that it is frequently used that way. I have always used it in the context of "someone who's primary purpose is intimidation or violence".

Pay attention to the media whenever you can. Pay attention to who is labeled a "Thug".
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 05, 2014, 05:15:37 am
"Thug" is now being used by teabaggers, and the GOP in place of "Nigger". Just letting everyone here know my observation. I sort of picked up on it last year, and after the Trevon case it reinforced my suspicion. Don't know is it's akin to "you people".

I think that might be what I'm responding to. I know this is a new reaction for me, I've never noticed it before the past year.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Ben Shapiro on March 05, 2014, 06:40:36 am
It started creeping up on me. Then it took Kayne West to see it more clearly. Someone on twitter said this is Zimmerman's 3rd violent offense why isn't he called a thug by the media. I'm giving it one more year before I become a true believer. But for now I'm just going to keep tabs on teabillys.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: President Television on March 05, 2014, 08:11:44 am
It started creeping up on me. Then it took Kayne West to see it more clearly. Someone on twitter said this is Zimmerman's 3rd violent offense why isn't he called a thug by the media. I'm giving it one more year before I become a true believer. But for now I'm just going to keep tabs on teabillys.

I think you're correct about the teabaggers.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Faust on March 05, 2014, 08:15:01 am
Is thug short for Thuggee? I'd consider that a complement.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 05, 2014, 08:19:59 am
It's a word that I've noticed predominantly black hiphop culture has appropriated. It never used to be a black thing, it was just some wanker that solved every problem with a hammer. Now it means something about black people. Same way "gay" never used to be a sexuality issue.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: President Television on March 05, 2014, 08:30:45 am
It's a word that I've noticed predominantly black hiphop culture has appropriated. It never used to be a black thing, it was just some wanker that solved every problem with a hammer. Now it means something about black people. Same way "gay" never used to be a sexuality issue.

I think it's like Alty said. It generally means what you said, and in the specific context of hip hop it means what Tupac said, and uninformed/intellectually dishonest racists have conflated the general definition with the specific context of black people and decided that there's a connection, if on no more than a rhetorical level. It's insidious.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Cain on March 05, 2014, 08:31:12 am
It does seem to be used in a more racially loaded way in America.  In the UK, it's normally been used to refer to our own white underclass, "thugs and hooligans" or else foreign leaders who were our friends last week, but are not now (Saddam Hussein).
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Junkenstein on March 05, 2014, 08:48:41 am
I'd have to agree with Cain there. Practically any UK media report about crime, particularly minor or common crimes, "thug" is a standard go to term.

I'd suspect the Daily Mail of possibly using the term in a more racially orientated way, but that's more a personal bias against the DM than actual fact.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Cain on March 05, 2014, 08:54:43 am
I suspect the Daily Mail of using the concept of race in a more racially orientated way than anyone else, so that wouldn't be entirely surprising.  I mean, the paper supported the Nazis, and has only changed insofar as it now whines about liberal bias much more.

Also, it's worth watching the transatlantic meme trade.  While the Telegraph is most notable for this, with neoconservative themes (check out the Telegraph blogs section), the Mail imports a lot from the Tea Party and nativist right.  Melanie Phillips was trading in "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim Marxist" conspiracy theories before he was even President.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Resigned Obligatorily on March 05, 2014, 09:24:22 am
I never thought thug was racial. More ghetto/rap than racial. I just though it meant physical bully, or brute force user.

To a young man, thug can even be a compliment. I used to despise those wankers. It seems to be more of a masculine thing. Even though those people are always ignorant ass holes, and they grow out of that after they realize that prison isn't the romanticized hardcore club that its made out to be.

You're right though, with an urban/racial context, especially for a woman, that would be quite insulting.
Its interesting how language transforms over time, and changes meenings depending on who you are and where you are in life.



Title: Re: THUG
Post by: LMNO on March 05, 2014, 12:55:15 pm
And she's older, so for her, if it DID have racial connotations, it would be way more appropriate for Dimo to be offended that me.


CULTURAL APPROPRIATION.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Junkenstein on March 05, 2014, 12:58:19 pm
I suspect the Daily Mail of using the concept of race in a more racially orientated way than anyone else, so that wouldn't be entirely surprising.  I mean, the paper supported the Nazis, and has only changed insofar as it now whines about liberal bias much more.

Also, it's worth watching the transatlantic meme trade.  While the Telegraph is most notable for this, with neoconservative themes (check out the Telegraph blogs section), the Mail imports a lot from the Tea Party and nativist right.  Melanie Phillips was trading in "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim Marxist" conspiracy theories before he was even President.

I wish to hear more on this meme trading. I can see the kind of thing you're talking about and I'd guess to to be more than a US/UK exchange. Look at how "Austerity" and various other things became political norms practically worldwide. Considering your thread from a couple of days ago it's almost tempting to say "Bilderberger". I refrain only because I can't prove shit but it would certainly make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Cain on March 05, 2014, 01:01:06 pm
The British right take a lot of their cues from the American right.  They read their publications, and often repackage their material to better suit a UK audience (this normally involves toning it down and less God).  American thinkers set down the narratives, the Atlantacist Tories and similar interpret them for the native masses.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 05, 2014, 01:05:23 pm
In America, "thug" is the new way to say "young Black man whom you should be terrified of."

Media-wise.  On FB, etc, it's a little nastier.  On FB, "thug" is code for "shiftless criminal nigger".  This can be illustrated by posting a thread about Trayvon Martin.

I've done this, and wound up blocking a couple of dozen people that I thought were civilized.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 05, 2014, 04:07:41 pm
In America, "thug" is the new way to say "young Black man whom you should be terrified of."

Media-wise.  On FB, etc, it's a little nastier.  On FB, "thug" is code for "shiftless criminal nigger".  This can be illustrated by posting a thread about Trayvon Martin.

I've done this, and wound up blocking a couple of dozen people that I thought were civilized.

Yeah. It's a relatively new thing, and I think that it was the Trayvon case that pushed it over the top and out into the light. The "hoodies make young black men look like thugs" meme. Of course, hoodies = thugs is a brand new fabrication (before the shooting, hoodies = hipsters), and a kid of slight build is unlikely to be taken for an old-definition thug, but by the new definition, that of the no-good nigger, "thug" has been appropriated as a stand-in for a racial slur in America.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Junkenstein on March 05, 2014, 05:31:59 pm
Worth noting that the hoodies=thugs has been in the UK press since at least the late 1990's, so it's taken some time to cross over there. Again worth noting that the sterotyped "Thug" here is practically synonymous with "chav". I think that term made some headway over there but didn't get too far.

Out of curiosity, what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals? I'm wondering if the terms used for white people are more specifically about their economic circumstances. From what I see, they tend to be.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: LMNO on March 05, 2014, 06:11:27 pm
what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals?


"Innocent"
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Pergamos on March 05, 2014, 06:21:49 pm

Well, im far off from your context, but what comes to mind when thug is said is:

A) Blackwater mercenaries

B) Black ghetto gangbangers

So, although Blackwater probably is predominantly white for all i know, its interesting how in both cases the word "black" is in there, so maybe theres something semiotically going on.  :?

Kali is the black mother...
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Pergamos on March 05, 2014, 06:29:42 pm
Worth noting that the hoodies=thugs has been in the UK press since at least the late 1990's, so it's taken some time to cross over there. Again worth noting that the sterotyped "Thug" here is practically synonymous with "chav". I think that term made some headway over there but didn't get too far.

Out of curiosity, what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals? I'm wondering if the terms used for white people are more specifically about their economic circumstances. From what I see, they tend to be.

In my experience it is usually about the drugs they use. 
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Salty on March 05, 2014, 07:32:49 pm
what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals?


"Innocent"

 :horrormirth:
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 05, 2014, 07:33:28 pm
what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals?


"Innocent"

"Diversion"

 :lulz:
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: LMNO on March 05, 2014, 07:40:40 pm
what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals?


"Innocent"

"Diversion"

 :lulz:


"Affluenza" (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wealthy-16-year-old-killed-4-drunken-crash-spared-jail-article-1.1544508)
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Cain on March 05, 2014, 07:42:24 pm
Worth noting that the hoodies=thugs has been in the UK press since at least the late 1990's, so it's taken some time to cross over there. Again worth noting that the sterotyped "Thug" here is practically synonymous with "chav". I think that term made some headway over there but didn't get too far.

Out of curiosity, what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals? I'm wondering if the terms used for white people are more specifically about their economic circumstances. From what I see, they tend to be.

In my experience it is usually about the drugs they use.

As an outsider, I'd have to agree.  The first thing that came to mind was "meth-user" if lower class, or "family man" if middle class and married. 
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 05, 2014, 07:49:27 pm
I still keep thinking about the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when CNN showed a black "looter", then shortly thereafter showed a white man "gathering supplies".
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Suu on March 05, 2014, 08:50:15 pm
Thug is not racially loaded to me. It was commonly used in RI referring to the mafia, and we use it in the SCA as a compliment to our army and household.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Faust on March 05, 2014, 09:09:16 pm
Using the word thug on someone isn't racist.

It's cultural appropriation, how dare they mislabel people as belonging to the Thuggee.

It's like me walking into a room full of you people and going "you miserable Maori shits"
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Ben Shapiro on March 05, 2014, 11:13:09 pm
what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals?


"Innocent"

"A victim "
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Ben Shapiro on March 05, 2014, 11:13:37 pm
what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals?


"Innocent"

"Diversion"

 :lulz:


"Affluenza" (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wealthy-16-year-old-killed-4-drunken-crash-spared-jail-article-1.1544508)

ZING!
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Telarus on March 06, 2014, 12:04:18 am
I was just thinking about that Affluenza shit.  :argh!:
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Junkenstein on March 06, 2014, 12:37:08 pm
Using the word thug on someone isn't racist.

It's cultural appropriation, how dare they mislabel people as belonging to the Thuggee.

It's like me walking into a room full of you people and going "you miserable Maori shits"

(http://www.angelmapper.com/img/misc/ThuggeeLife.jpg)
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 04:44:39 pm
what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals?


"Innocent"

 :lulz:

"alleged"
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 04:48:11 pm
Thug is not racially loaded to me. It was commonly used in RI referring to the mafia, and we use it in the SCA as a compliment to our army and household.

I am not even really sure how to respond to this.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: LMNO on March 06, 2014, 04:49:59 pm
There is no ethnic component in the mafia. 




Of course.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Reginald Ret on March 06, 2014, 04:51:30 pm
what kind of terms do you commonly see attached to white petty criminals?


"Innocent"

 :lulz:

"alleged"
Alleged is horribly accurate.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 06, 2014, 04:52:34 pm
Thug is not racially loaded to me. It was commonly used in RI referring to the mafia, and we use it in the SCA as a compliment to our army and household.

I am not even really sure how to respond to this.

Clearly, this is about the SCA.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 05:20:30 pm
Thug is not racially loaded to me. It was commonly used in RI referring to the mafia, and we use it in the SCA as a compliment to our army and household.

I am not even really sure how to respond to this.

Clearly, this is about the SCA.

BREAKING NEWS: White Lady In New Hampshire Announces "Thug" Not Racially Loaded For Her, SCA Pals.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: East Coast Hustle on March 06, 2014, 05:42:27 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

Or are we better off ignoring that bullshit and those bullshit-spewers and not allowing the linguistic tropes of a minor outlier segment of society to become entangled with our everyday linguistic reality?

I mean, "thug" is a word, and it's not a word with any inherent racial meaning. I'm kinda feeling like I'm going to keep using it the way I always have and if I hear someone else using it as a racially-loaded placeholder term I'll address those situations individually rather than start pruning my own vocabulary to conform with some ever-changing notion of political correctness that's trying to keep up with the mouthbreathers' newest slang terms.

Otherwise, aren't we letting the terrorists win?
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Reginald Ret on March 06, 2014, 05:51:30 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

Or are we better off ignoring that bullshit and those bullshit-spewers and not allowing the linguistic tropes of a minor outlier segment of society to become entangled with our everyday linguistic reality?

I mean, "thug" is a word, and it's not a word with any inherent racial meaning. I'm kinda feeling like I'm going to keep using it the way I always have and if I hear someone else using it as a racially-loaded placeholder term I'll address those situations individually rather than start pruning my own vocabulary to conform with some ever-changing notion of political correctness that's trying to keep up with the mouthbreathers' newest slang terms.

Otherwise, aren't we letting the terrorists win?
PC is logic-proof.
Don't try to fight it.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 05:56:25 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

Or are we better off ignoring that bullshit and those bullshit-spewers and not allowing the linguistic tropes of a minor outlier segment of society to become entangled with our everyday linguistic reality?

I mean, "thug" is a word, and it's not a word with any inherent racial meaning. I'm kinda feeling like I'm going to keep using it the way I always have and if I hear someone else using it as a racially-loaded placeholder term I'll address those situations individually rather than start pruning my own vocabulary to conform with some ever-changing notion of political correctness that's trying to keep up with the mouthbreathers' newest slang terms.

Otherwise, aren't we letting the terrorists win?

No, we certainly don't, and in my opinion shouldn't. But that is also not what this conversation is about. It's not about STOP USING THE WORD THUG IMMEDIATELY, it's about recognizing and naming the fact that some people ARE using it in a way that has strongly racist connotations. I also think that if you call something like that out early enough, it can be nipped in the bud.

I also know that just not saying anything about it while racists use their precious little code-words du jour just makes them feel totally free to go on doing so; in cases like that, silence is tacit approval.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 05:57:07 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

Or are we better off ignoring that bullshit and those bullshit-spewers and not allowing the linguistic tropes of a minor outlier segment of society to become entangled with our everyday linguistic reality?

I mean, "thug" is a word, and it's not a word with any inherent racial meaning. I'm kinda feeling like I'm going to keep using it the way I always have and if I hear someone else using it as a racially-loaded placeholder term I'll address those situations individually rather than start pruning my own vocabulary to conform with some ever-changing notion of political correctness that's trying to keep up with the mouthbreathers' newest slang terms.

Otherwise, aren't we letting the terrorists win?
PC is logic-proof.
Don't try to fight it.

Oh go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 06:02:53 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

Or are we better off ignoring that bullshit and those bullshit-spewers and not allowing the linguistic tropes of a minor outlier segment of society to become entangled with our everyday linguistic reality?

I mean, "thug" is a word, and it's not a word with any inherent racial meaning. I'm kinda feeling like I'm going to keep using it the way I always have and if I hear someone else using it as a racially-loaded placeholder term I'll address those situations individually rather than start pruning my own vocabulary to conform with some ever-changing notion of political correctness that's trying to keep up with the mouthbreathers' newest slang terms.

Otherwise, aren't we letting the terrorists win?
PC is logic-proof.
Don't try to fight it.

I don't know if you intended to be spectacularly dismissive of this topic and of all other cases where people who historically get the short end of the stick speak up and say "hey, actually, we find that really demeaning", but that's how it came across.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 06, 2014, 06:03:28 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

Or are we better off ignoring that bullshit and those bullshit-spewers and not allowing the linguistic tropes of a minor outlier segment of society to become entangled with our everyday linguistic reality?

I mean, "thug" is a word, and it's not a word with any inherent racial meaning. I'm kinda feeling like I'm going to keep using it the way I always have and if I hear someone else using it as a racially-loaded placeholder term I'll address those situations individually rather than start pruning my own vocabulary to conform with some ever-changing notion of political correctness that's trying to keep up with the mouthbreathers' newest slang terms.

Otherwise, aren't we letting the terrorists win?
PC is logic-proof.
Don't try to fight it.

I'm a curious guy, so I gotta ask...What was going through your head when you decided that the above post was a good idea?

:whack:

I mean, you are aware of what you just actually said, right?
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 06, 2014, 06:06:44 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

No, but it's good to know what they're actually saying.

In my case, because I can use that knowledge to flog the fuck out of teabaggers on Facebook and in Oro Valley.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Ben Shapiro on March 06, 2014, 06:17:41 pm
This thread delivers!
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: LMNO on March 06, 2014, 06:23:56 pm
Cain, I was just watching the Dishonored clip, and noticed what the title was of the guy who led you to Slackjaw. 
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: East Coast Hustle on March 06, 2014, 06:31:57 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

Or are we better off ignoring that bullshit and those bullshit-spewers and not allowing the linguistic tropes of a minor outlier segment of society to become entangled with our everyday linguistic reality?

I mean, "thug" is a word, and it's not a word with any inherent racial meaning. I'm kinda feeling like I'm going to keep using it the way I always have and if I hear someone else using it as a racially-loaded placeholder term I'll address those situations individually rather than start pruning my own vocabulary to conform with some ever-changing notion of political correctness that's trying to keep up with the mouthbreathers' newest slang terms.

Otherwise, aren't we letting the terrorists win?

No, we certainly don't, and in my opinion shouldn't. But that is also not what this conversation is about. It's not about STOP USING THE WORD THUG IMMEDIATELY, it's about recognizing and naming the fact that some people ARE using it in a way that has strongly racist connotations. I also think that if you call something like that out early enough, it can be nipped in the bud.

I also know that just not saying anything about it while racists use their precious little code-words du jour just makes them feel totally free to go on doing so; in cases like that, silence is tacit approval.

Oh, absolutely. We appear to be on the exact same page, then, I just don't comprehend all that well early in the morning.

Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Cain on March 06, 2014, 06:36:20 pm
Cain, I was just watching the Dishonored clip, and noticed what the title was of the guy who led you to Slackjaw.

You'll notice both the black and white guys are thugs, too.

But then, Dunwall is 19th century London, just with more plague.  And Londoners loved call people thugs.  The understanding of the British colonial authorities, that the Thugges formed a professional criminal underclass, found a lot of reflection in Victorian sociology and fear of underclass unrest in the UK.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 06:40:42 pm
Here's a question, and feel free to slap the shit out of me if it's retarded and/or unknowingly crossing some "racial rules" line:

Do we, as a society in general, have to sideline terms every time some teabillies decide to make it their "nigger du jour"?

Or are we better off ignoring that bullshit and those bullshit-spewers and not allowing the linguistic tropes of a minor outlier segment of society to become entangled with our everyday linguistic reality?

I mean, "thug" is a word, and it's not a word with any inherent racial meaning. I'm kinda feeling like I'm going to keep using it the way I always have and if I hear someone else using it as a racially-loaded placeholder term I'll address those situations individually rather than start pruning my own vocabulary to conform with some ever-changing notion of political correctness that's trying to keep up with the mouthbreathers' newest slang terms.

Otherwise, aren't we letting the terrorists win?

No, we certainly don't, and in my opinion shouldn't. But that is also not what this conversation is about. It's not about STOP USING THE WORD THUG IMMEDIATELY, it's about recognizing and naming the fact that some people ARE using it in a way that has strongly racist connotations. I also think that if you call something like that out early enough, it can be nipped in the bud.

I also know that just not saying anything about it while racists use their precious little code-words du jour just makes them feel totally free to go on doing so; in cases like that, silence is tacit approval.

Oh, absolutely. We appear to be on the exact same page, then, I just don't comprehend all that well early in the morning.

I hear that. :lol:

One of the other benefits of pointing this shit out is that it makes it less likely that it will seep into the popular lexicon as an unconsciously derogatory synonym for "black guy" by people who actually don't want to be racist. It doesn't mean it isn't still appropriately used to mean "person who physically intimidates or threatens people, usually for money". I mean, Blackwater thugs are still thugs.

Title: Re: THUG
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 06, 2014, 06:41:09 pm
This most recent usage began when Bush equated "Thug" with "Smudgy-Skinned Terrorists" in his efforts to associate Iraq with 911.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Cain on March 06, 2014, 06:45:16 pm
Here's an interesting academic article, which doesn't appear to be paywalled http://www.sagepub.com/gabbidonstudy/articles/Welch.pdf
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 06:54:33 pm
Here's an interesting academic article, which doesn't appear to be paywalled http://www.sagepub.com/gabbidonstudy/articles/Welch.pdf

Oooh, thanks Cain!
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Cain on March 06, 2014, 07:07:45 pm
I thought this was a killer sentence:

Quote
In fact, perceptions about the presumed racial identity of criminals may be so ingrained in public consciousness that race does not even need to be specifically mentioned for a connection to be made between the two because it seems that “talking about crime is talking about race” (Barlow, 1998, p. 151).
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 06, 2014, 07:17:18 pm
I thought this was a killer sentence:

Quote
In fact, perceptions about the presumed racial identity of criminals may be so ingrained in public consciousness that race does not even need to be specifically mentioned for a connection to be made between the two because it seems that “talking about crime is talking about race” (Barlow, 1998, p. 151).

Totally. And the statistic that when no criminal suspect is shown, 42% of viewers still remember there being a suspect, and two thirds of those recall the suspect as black.

Chilling.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Faust on March 06, 2014, 09:30:15 pm
Thug is used extensively here. It has no racial connotations in irish culture. It may have economic implications aimed at the lower classes but it's antiquated here and sounds vaguely like someones insane grampa when they use it.

Scum is definitely aimed at the lower classes, more specifically normally used in association with the traveller community or migrants.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Cain on March 06, 2014, 10:09:49 pm
Our tabloids prefer yob to thug, I think.  Mostly because it's a letter smaller.  You know, gives you more advertising spaces to play with, if your headline YOB SCUM RIOT ON UK STREETS to THUG SCUM RIOT ON ENGLISH STREETS.
Title: Re: THUG
Post by: Faust on March 07, 2014, 10:53:36 am
It makes them seem hip and with it, appealing to the bigoted youth of today.