Not sure where this goes under yet:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36742835
QuoteFive Dallas police officers have been killed and six wounded by gunmen during protests against the shooting of black men by police, authorities say.
Three people are in custody and one man who was in a stand-off with police shot himself dead, US media have reported.
Gunfire broke out at around 20:45 local time on Thursday (01:45 GMT Friday) as demonstrators marched through the city.
The protests were sparked by the deaths of Philando Castile in Minnesota and Alton Sterling in Louisiana.
The Dallas attack marks the deadliest toll on US law enforcement officers since the 9/11 attacks in 2001.
QuoteChief Brown said the suspects were all believed to have been working together, using rifles to carry out attacks while the rally was taking place.
He added: "We do not have a comfort level that we have all the suspects."
This seems unlikely to end well, in any regard.
Shit.
Yup.
There is literally nothing here that will end well from this.
This may require its own thread. This is...unprecedented. And while, based on a very quick reading, the Dallas PD are not the worst city PD in existence, nevertheless you're going to have an institutionally paranoid group with a strong group identity now feeling it's under attack. And they have lots of guns and badges.
This is terrible.
Quote from: Cain on July 08, 2016, 01:54:24 PM
This may require its own thread. This is...unprecedented. And while, based on a very quick reading, the Dallas PD are not the worst city PD in existence, nevertheless you're going to have an institutionally paranoid group with a strong group identity now feeling it's under attack. And they have lots of guns and badges.
Please feel free to split/move. The reason I stuck it here is I just have no idea what to actually refer to this as yet beyond "Massive clusterfuck" in both the immediate present and future.
Done. Here's a livefeed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-36743033
The BBC are also reporting (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36745862) what Dallas PD is saying the dead gunman's motives were:
QuoteThe gunman killed in a stand-off with Dallas police said he was upset about the police shootings of black people and wanted to kill white officers, the city's police chief has said.
The suspect told police that he was working alone, Police Chief David Brown told reporters.
Five Dallas police officers were killed and seven wounded by gunmen during protests against the shooting of black men by police, authorities say.
Three people are in custody.
Live updates
Mr Brown said the suspect had been killed when police used explosives to end a stand-off in a building where he was holed up.
He said that the gunman had told a negotiator that he was "upset about the Black Lives Matter [protest], about recent police shootings, upset at white people, and he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers".
"He said he was not affiliated with any groups, and he did this alone," Mr Brown added.
"key points from news conference"
QuoteThe suspect involved in a stand-off with police said he wanted to kill white people, especially police officers
He said he was upset about recent police shootings of black men
Police negotiated with the man for several hours and exchanged gunfire with him
The suspect was killed by an explosive device sent in remotely using a police robot
Police will not identify the suspects or give any details about them while the investigation is ongoing
Police chief David Brown said "divisiveness between our police and our citizens" must stop
The bold is particularly concerning. All of it is, but that has certain implications as a particularly worrying precedent for dealing with hostile people.
Yeah, I'm trying to find out more about these robots.
I mean, that's a pretty unorthodox tactic, for a police station.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 08, 2016, 02:25:50 PM
"key points from news conference" [snip] that has certain implications as a particularly worrying precedent for dealing with hostile people.
Especially as it is happening in a country where you don't actually have to be
hostile in order for tbtb to
deal with you; you just have to be ethnically challenged/challenging.
From the sounds of it, he was tightly lodged in wherever he was, and the Dallas PD had been communicating with him via a police negotiator. It does sound like it was a situation where breaching and going in would probably result in at least one dead cop in addition to the suspect.
But I would definitely like to see what sort of rulebook there is regarding when you can send in the robot with a bomb. That sounds like a special forces tactic, the sort of thing you'd see deployed in overseas situations by military personnel.
http://www.caller.com/news/state/385967371.xhtml
QuoteA robotics expert says Dallas police appear to be the first law enforcement agency to use a robot to kill.
Peter W. Singer, of the New America Foundation, says the killing of a suspect in Thursday night's fatal shooting of five police officers is the first instance of which he's aware of a robot being used lethally by police.
Dallas Police Chief David Brown told reporters that after hours of failed negotiations and in order to not put any officers in harm's way, his department used a robot to deliver a bomb that killed the suspect. Brown said they saw no other option.
Singer said in an email Friday that when he was researching his 2009 book "Wired for War" a U.S. soldier told him troops in Iraq sometimes used MARCbot surveillance robots against insurgents.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-dallas-police-shooting-20160708-snap-story.html
QuoteThe suspect was identified as Micah X. Johnson, 25, a resident of the Dallas area, two U.S. law enforcement officials said.
Johnson had no known criminal history or ties to terror groups, the official said, and has relatives in Mesquite, Texas, which is just east of Dallas.The official said federal agents were assisting Dallas authorities in the investigation.
Authorities believe Johnson belonged to an informal gun club and took copious amounts of target practice, according to a law enforcement official.
Hold on... They had him holed up, trapped with nowhere to go, and no one was in immediate danger... so they just up and killed him?
Quote from: LMNO on July 08, 2016, 04:40:10 PM
Hold on... They had him holed up, trapped with nowhere to go, and no one was in immediate danger... so they just up and killed him?
There are uncomfirmed reports that the police negotiator may have been killed.
I'm trying to get more info on that.
Quote from: LMNO on July 08, 2016, 04:40:10 PM
Hold on... They had him holed up, trapped with nowhere to go, and no one was in immediate danger... so they just up and killed him?
Dude, we have been doing that since the 70s, that's why you (almost) never hear about jetliner hijackings in the US.
They negotiated with him for two hours, no progress. They couldn't take him out without risking more cops, so they nuked him robotically. Hey they would have used a drone if he was Yemeni.
On the bright side what may be the first man made cybornetic "animal/robot" was announced today. Artificial stingray, propelled by heart cells from a rat. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36748076
This is why the brightest minds in the room are warning us about the emerging era of AI/robotic warfare, because it is coming to a city near you:
QuoteMusk, Wozniak and Hawking urge ban on warfare AI and autonomous weapons
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jul/27/musk-wozniak-hawking-ban-ai-autonomous-weapons
When AI and (cybornetic)robotics are tasked with our security, what could go wrong?
QuoteThat sounds like a special forces tactic, the sort of thing you'd see deployed in overseas situations by military personnel.
This was my first thought. I suspect that the years of hiring ex military to fill out the police ranks are starting to have some very unintended consequences.
This is a scary escalation to an awful tragedy, I fear the idea is out there now, I expect the first civilian performes killing using a drone or other, within a year.*
Assuming it hasn't already happened and passed me by.
Kept seeing people tweeting about BLM protests. My naive Coloradan self thought at a glance they were crazy rednecks in texas protesting the federal government & bureau of land management (what BLM is). Coupled with a guy in camo being the first suspect because he was OPEN CARRYING A FREAKING AR-15 AT THE EVENT, and it made sense.
Nope. Turns out it stands for black lives matter, too, apparently. Now anyways.
Makes "I went to a BLM Area to shoot some rounds today" have a much, much darker meaning now. Especially considering 75% of shots I've fired in my lifetime have been in BLM areas/land. Snowmobile/ATV usage, too.
Quote from: Faust on July 08, 2016, 07:54:36 PM
This is a scary escalation to an awful tragedy, I fear the idea is out there now, I expect the first civilian performes killing using a drone or other, within a year.*
Assuming it hasn't already happened and passed me by.
Citizen? Or civilian? Because they've been bombing citizens abroad for years (I think Cain may have mentioned this recently. If not, see this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki).)
Pretty sure they tend to be terrorists/badwrong people, but they're almost never indicted or convicted of any crimes when they are killed.
If you mean civilians, as in people who like, go to the gym on Thursdays and hate work, then I don't remember anything like that. In which case, I agree, it is coming soon.
Civilian, the technology is available and cheap, there is a culture of entitlement, the idea of using drones in hit and run bombings removes the accountability, maybe I am being alarmist, but the culture is there for another unibomber.
I think this will escalate the trend of bad police. The risk of police work looks like it is increasing, while the rewards (being able to shoot people of color) are not appealing to good police, but are to bad ones.
Quote from: Faust on July 08, 2016, 10:43:09 PM
Civilian, the technology is available and cheap, there is a culture of entitlement, the idea of using drones in hit and run bombings removes the accountability, maybe I am being alarmist, but the culture is there for another unibomber.
Yeah, I'd never really thought about it for much more than a split second. Now that the weight of the suggestion has settled in, that's actually quite fucking terrifying. Not the idea of it happening, per se, but that it doesn't actually seem that far away. I don't think you're being alarmist.
Quote from: Faust on July 08, 2016, 10:43:09 PM
Civilian, the technology is available and cheap, there is a culture of entitlement, the idea of using drones in hit and run bombings removes the accountability, maybe I am being alarmist, but the culture is there for another unibomber.
when my son was in Iraq, he said ISIS had more drone coverage than the Marines did. Cheap from Amazon.com, easy to learn how to use.
weaponizing one would be a breeze.
I am also unsurprised by this. You demonstrate that a subgroup of the population can more or less be killed on a whim, sooner or later the hotheads just say "fuck it".
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 09, 2016, 12:46:08 AM
Quote from: Faust on July 08, 2016, 10:43:09 PM
Civilian, the technology is available and cheap, there is a culture of entitlement, the idea of using drones in hit and run bombings removes the accountability, maybe I am being alarmist, but the culture is there for another unibomber.
when my son was in Iraq, he said ISIS had more drone coverage than the Marines did. Cheap from Amazon.com, easy to learn how to use.
weaponizing one would be a breeze.
Oh my god...
Quote from: Fernando Poo on July 09, 2016, 01:13:52 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 09, 2016, 12:46:08 AM
Quote from: Faust on July 08, 2016, 10:43:09 PM
Civilian, the technology is available and cheap, there is a culture of entitlement, the idea of using drones in hit and run bombings removes the accountability, maybe I am being alarmist, but the culture is there for another unibomber.
when my son was in Iraq, he said ISIS had more drone coverage than the Marines did. Cheap from Amazon.com, easy to learn how to use.
weaponizing one would be a breeze.
Oh my god...
18 year old mounts a gun to a drone (i think he made one with a flame thrower, too) (http://www.businessinsider.com/an-18-year-old-mounted-a-gun-to-a-drone-and-fired-shots-in-the-middle-of-the-woods-2015-7)
Quote from: rong on July 09, 2016, 01:22:30 AM
Quote from: Fernando Poo on July 09, 2016, 01:13:52 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 09, 2016, 12:46:08 AM
Quote from: Faust on July 08, 2016, 10:43:09 PM
Civilian, the technology is available and cheap, there is a culture of entitlement, the idea of using drones in hit and run bombings removes the accountability, maybe I am being alarmist, but the culture is there for another unibomber.
when my son was in Iraq, he said ISIS had more drone coverage than the Marines did. Cheap from Amazon.com, easy to learn how to use.
weaponizing one would be a breeze.
Oh my god...
18 year old mounts a gun to a drone (i think he made one with a flame thrower, too) (http://www.businessinsider.com/an-18-year-old-mounted-a-gun-to-a-drone-and-fired-shots-in-the-middle-of-the-woods-2015-7)
Was more concerned with the top part of what Roger said, but now that seems even more fucked up.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-robot-idUSKCN0ZO2KR
Update on bomb robot shit. Not good.
Apparently gasses of various forms no longer exist, C4 is the only practical option. What the living fuck are you people doing over there? How can this gear possibly be considered appropriate for a police department to own, let alone use? Seems like a radical escalation of force-continuum.
The kicker is that they still have 2 spares.
After we pulled out of Iraq, we had tons of military ordinance left unused and unsold.
Then some Titan of Capitalism suggested they sell it to police departments "to combat terrorism."
USA! USA!
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 15, 2016, 11:11:24 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-robot-idUSKCN0ZO2KR
Update on bomb robot shit. Not good.
Apparently gasses of various forms no longer exist, C4 is the only practical option. What the living fuck are you people doing over there? How can this gear possibly be considered appropriate for a police department to own, let alone use? Seems like a radical escalation of force-continuum.
The kicker is that they still have 2 spares.
It's designed to detonate explosives. In that capacity I have no problem with it. Big city forces certainly need a way to remotely detonate bombs.
Quote from: Pergamos on July 16, 2016, 06:53:01 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 15, 2016, 11:11:24 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-robot-idUSKCN0ZO2KR
Update on bomb robot shit. Not good.
Apparently gasses of various forms no longer exist, C4 is the only practical option. What the living fuck are you people doing over there? How can this gear possibly be considered appropriate for a police department to own, let alone use? Seems like a radical escalation of force-continuum.
The kicker is that they still have 2 spares.
It's designed to detonate explosives. In that capacity I have no problem with it. Big city forces certainly need a way to remotely detonate bombs.
Yeah, but the idea of the police providing the party favors is a little disturbing.
Just roll that around in your head for a moment or two. The police had 3 bombs. For use on civilians.
One day, they're gonna fuck up and set one off next to a gas main. Bank on it.
I'll have a dollar on "next to hospital generator" for an accident.
I can see idiots doing it to a gas main or similar on purpose just to see the size of the explosion. Removing the threat will just be a happy coincidence.
Killing people with C4 is like killing with a rocket or grenade launcher, may seem like terrifying overkill, but in a country where everyone has the right to wield guns, it's the next steps of the Lensman race between police and the people. It may be what Dire Straits wanted to say in "Man's too strong" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVdB-UKfxD4) :sad:.
It's kind of normal to see that kind of brutal enforcement when protesters have the dumb idea to come as armed gunmen. When one protests, it's to get a more peaceful life, that's why most protests are peaceful. Shooting men of law is like asking them to get more weapons to shoot back !
But it's still terrifying overkill. Gee. Like you two, I'd almost wish they had an accident to make people realize how insane went the world around them.