That's right. I'm jumping on board. I believe that when you vacuum out that little ball of jelly, and throw it in the dumpster, you've committed murder.
You can fool yourself into believing that it isn't really alive so you can sleep well at night in your tower of moral superiority, but you're a murder. Even advocating the notion of legal abortion makes you an accessory to baby-murder. A little innocent bundle of miraculous joy is dead because you want consequence free sex.
Let that sink in.
I am writing these things to call-out some hypocrisy. Recently I met a fellow revolutionary. He had ideas about changing the world. He wanted to tear down the "forces of old and evil" and make the world better. How would he do this? Not by defacing government vehicles and advertising boards. These were "fascist methods." He chose instead to harass the anti-abortion guy on the corner.
Each "side" (left and right) today has it's pet causes. Some of these are no-brainers to me. Protect the environment? Sounds like a no-brainer. Don't shit where you eat.
The anti-abortion cause? Look, I don't really know if that little thing is alive, but isn't there something good and pure about someone who is trying to prevent murder? I'm not talking about the fanatics and the bombers, but the sign holders and the rally starters. When someone does it for a death row inmate or a whale they are applauded for their sacrifice, but someone stopping baby murder is an evil fanatic? Doesn't make sense to me. I've seen stupider causes than saving babies.
Just keep some of this in mind if you ever get over-zealous with the pro-choice ferver. Not all of those freaks are trying to take away your right to choose. Some just like kids.
Shit, I like kids enough to have had three of them, and if I got pregnant again I wouldn't abort. I know the fetus is alive, and I know it's human... I just don't think it's a person. I think it's a potential person up until maybe four months. Who knows *when* it becomes a person... I can only imagine it's a gradual awakening. But I don't think killing a potential person is murder.
I respect people who believe that a fetus is a person from the beginning, but what I don't respect are people who say "Abortion is murder... oh, except in the case of rape or incest". I just don't get that.
As I referenced in this post (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14865.msg470727#msg470727), I have a roommate who recently became a vegetarian for rather hilarious reasons.
The other day, he asked me, "Do vegetarians eat eggs?"
"Hmmmm," I said, "Is an egg a living creature?"
"Well," he said, "I'm pro-choice."
"I guess you're safe then," I said.
That leads me to the conclusion that pro-choice people can eat fetuses and it's not cannibalism.
but to follow this to where you were actually going, Hunter, I don't shit on anybodies beliefs because my beliefs are kind of stupid. My only wish for humanity is that they could realize how idiotic and unimportant and totally irrelevant their beliefs are.
I mean srsly, if you were an educated dude in the 1850s, and posting on the internet, you wouldn't be arguing about creationism vs evolution (or whatever people yell about these days). You'd be arguing about equipotentiation vs localization of brain functions, or whether or not phrenology's empirical scientific support can / should be dismissed. Today people argue about equally irrelevant things, but they think they are important because people TODAY are all hot and bothered about those issues. But a hundred years from now, these arguments will be as idiotic as arguing whether you have five or seven chakras, or which particular imbalance of humors causes cholera. GET OVER IT SPAGS, people in the future already settled this.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 10, 2008, 03:16:19 AM
As I referenced in this post (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14865.msg470727#msg470727), I have a roommate who recently became a vegetarian for rather hilarious reasons.
The other day, he asked me, "Do vegetarians eat eggs?"
"Hmmmm," I said, "Is an egg a living creature?"
"Well," he said, "I'm pro-choice."
"I guess you're safe then," I said.
That leads me to the conclusion that pro-choice people can eat fetuses and it's not cannibalism.
OK, wait though, that's sort of like arguing that you could eat a human kidney and it's not cannibalism because the kidney is not a person.
okay wait - do pro-life vegetarians eat eggs?
edit: never mind that's a stupid question, they're chickens not people
edit2: I would eat human kidneys, but I also do not think cannibalism is wrong for any reason and in fact should be encouraged
That's assuming they're eating chicken eggs, and not human ones.
Also, I disagree with the entire premise of this thread.
I have to opt for pro choice, personally. Choices are always preferable on basic principle, and I just plain value thinking creatures more than merely living matter. The important things to recognize:
1. When you vote pro-life, you're not just giving your opinion. You're telling others what to do.
2. Pro-life politics are a tool of politicians to get voted in by religious fundamentalists. If you don't like the idea of abortions, don't have one.
End tirade
I hope they invent vat meat and one of the options is "human".
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 12:16:32 AM
That's right. I'm jumping on board. I believe that when you vacuum out that little ball of jelly, and throw it in the dumpster, you've committed murder.
Yeah, but arguably, it's in
self defense.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 12:16:32 AM
Just keep some of this in mind if you ever get over-zealous with the pro-choice ferver. Not all of those freaks are trying to take away your right to choose. Some just like kids.
Then they probably shouldn't get abortions.
Easy.
I used to hide behind the fact that I was a male and told people that I therefore could have no useful opinion about abortion. That was bullshit and I knew it was but it spared me the trouble of explaining to people what I believe in spite of that excuse. I think abortion is incredibly unfortunate, and if you want to go so far as to call it "murder," fine. But you damn well better also include "unintentional civilian casualties" in your country's retarded war "murder" as well. And don't forget all the people in the world who die as a direct result of you not forcing your government's hand at improving their situation, whether it be famine or poverty or disease or whatever.
In any case, there is a lot of death in the world anyway, and a lot of it is unnecessary in my opinion, but that doesn't make it "wrong" or even unavoidable. In the case of abortion, you have to understand how incredibly rare it is that a woman uses it as a form of last-minute birth control. Women who undergo this procedure understand that it is incredibly frowned upon, even among many people who accept it; they stress over their decision and they in many cases live with a troubled conscience for years afterward, if not forever. These are thinking people with emotion, not murderers. These are people who, for the most part, feel that they have only one option. They know almost nobody will understand their choice, but they believe it is the only choice they have, and they make that choice because they have weighed all of the options they have as they understand them.
In a perfect world, abortion would not happen -- not because it would be illegal but because it would be unnecessary. In a perfect world, people would not be made to feel so ashamed of their natural instincts about and desire for sex that they avoid buying proper birth control. They would not feel so self-conscious about themselves that they must be borderline catatonic and unable to think clearly before they have sex with somebody.
But that is not the world we live in. We live in a world where people are going to end up needing abortions. And I think it should be an option, because we need to understand that it is going to happen whether it is illegal or not. The Religious Right doesn't care about that, of course. They just want it swept under the rug and forgotten about, like all social problems, so they can pretend Jesus really is capable of solving big problems.
Quote from: Felix on January 10, 2008, 03:32:29 AM
1. When you vote pro-life, you're not just giving your opinion. You're telling others what to do.
Win.
It is only cannibalism if you know it is a person. Or if you enjoy it. Other wise it is just the "white pork special"
Many cannibal tribes refer to human meat as "long pig."
Quote from: vexati0n on January 10, 2008, 06:04:33 AM
Many cannibal tribes refer to human meat as "long pork shoulder."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 10, 2008, 04:35:31 AM
Quote from: Felix on January 10, 2008, 03:32:29 AM
1. When you vote pro-life, you're not just giving your opinion. You're telling others what to do.
Win.
So if I come to your house to murder your wife, and you stop me, aren't you just telling me what I can't do?
You don't comdemn the fact that its legal some places for muslim men to kill their wives and daughters for insolence?
We tell others what to do all the time, so don't give me that nonsense.
I'm arguing for the people that believe in the sanctity of life. I'm not talking about political leverage and all that other bullshit.
Quote from: vexati0n on January 10, 2008, 04:35:27 AM
But you damn well better also include "unintentional civilian casualties" in your country's retarded war "murder" as well.
If this is directed at me,
my country isn't at war.
I secceeded from the US long ago.
Besides, to me, the war is a no-brainer issue. Stop it- E/O/T.
Also: Off-point. I'm pro-murder.
Your personal definition applies only to you, which is fine.
The problem comes when you try to apply your personal definition to other people.
You obviously seem upset when people try to force you to believe that an embryo is not alive; why shouldn't the converse be true?
the "abortion as contraception" idea is total bullshit, if you talk to a woman who has ever had one.
By all accounts, it's a pretty miserable experience.
Granted, you can probably find a handful of women who may have done it, but a widespread occurence? No way.
I try to think of this from a practical point of view. Having had a kid, I have to admit my personal views on abortion have shifted somewhat. When it comes right down to it, and if you pinned me to the wall, I would still say I am pro-choice, as a matter of law.
And this is mainly because of the coat hanger abortion. Yeah, I know that's cliches, but we know from the alcohol prohibition debacle, that if you outlaw something that humans are naturally going to want, they will find a way to get it. If a society cares about the safety and welfare of women, especially those who become pregnant, it seems to me you have to allow for legal abortions. Now, one can say this is state-sponsored murder, and if that's one's personal view about abortion, then that's what it is, state-sponsored abortion. But the reality is, it's going to happen. There are women who are going to become pregnant who didn't want to. Perhaps it is failed birth control, perhaps it is foollishy NOT using birth control, perhaps it is incest or rape. These things will NEVER go away. The want to terminate these unplanned and unwated pregnancies is NEVER going away.
I feel it's best that, if the society wants these women to be safe, then abortion needs to remain legal. If, however, a society decides that "fuck them if they can't keep their legs closed", then you legislate accordingly. It seems in America, the majority is the former and the minority is the latter. Currently the balance is shifted towards the former. If it goes the other way, well we all know what will happen.
Quote from: LMNO on January 10, 2008, 03:03:57 PM
the "abortion as contraception" idea is total bullshit, if you talk to a woman who has ever had one.
By all accounts, it's a pretty miserable experience.
Granted, you can probably find a handful of women who may have done it, but a widespread occurence? No way.
Agreed. When my wife had a "spontaneous abortion", otherwise known as a miscarriage, what she went through to, there's no delicate way to put this, remove the failed fetus, was just plain awful. It took her, and me vicariously, MONTHS to get over it. In fact, I know it still scars her mentally to this day. A woman who would use processes like that as contraception have to have some mental issues, seriously.
i just wanted to say that an egg is generally not a living thing as it's not fertilized.
a better question would be if vegetarians are allowed to swallow.
also, on abortion. if you wanna call it murder, fine. it's just a label. if you're gonna say it's right or wrong, that's different. i don't think it's wrong.
RWHN gives some good practical reasons why it should be legal and possible and i agree with those, but says nothing about right or wrong.
i also agree with LMNOs stance on "abortion as contraception".
for me, personally, on a ethical level, the reason i don't think it's "wrong", is because the "life" you're ending isn't really that much to speak of, IMVHO. i don't really believe in the "potential" or "possible" life that a fetus could have lived, cause i don't believe in playing the "what if" game. i know how useless it is saying "what if" about events and decisions in my own life (see the "meeting my old self" remark in that other thread--it's bull)
so the value of life must come from the decisions and action a living thing has already taken. that's the thing, it's a living thing you're killing, but the life you're taking away isn't that much. at least, don't get me wrong, what i mean by "isn't that much" is that i, personally, don't feel that much emotional value in it. but then, i've never been in such a situation (and hope i never have to be), so i can't really tell.
also, the problem is, if we look at the other end, euthanasia for someone who has turned into a vegetable, which i also think is not wrong, i will hold the same argument exactly the other way around, attributing the value of a life to whatever possible future actions it can take.
so apparently, i'm a hypocrite.
:troll:
That's why I disagree. Because this entire topic is trollbait.
Quote from: Cain on January 10, 2008, 06:45:50 PM
:troll:
That's why I disagree. Because this entire topic is trollbait.
This is my way of sticking up for somebody.
Not because I agree with them, I don't. My attitude is similar to 000's.
I'm sticking up for them because I believe it's the thing to do. So many Pro-choicers villify the Right-to-lifers as some sort of Anti-choice Thought-Police. That may be the case sometimes, but a whole bunch of those people are good people who believe in the sanctity of life. All this is my effort to hopefully put it in someones mind that there are worse things out there than people who care.
You see it as a troll, but I think if you consider that some of those people have humanity's best intrests in mind, we can heal some rifts.
I don't see you as a troll, I see the entire topic as a troll.
It doesn't matter who debate it or where. In can be in Parliament, on Crossfire or on outlandish internet forums. The parameters of the discussion are pre-set, and loaded with political, cultural and philosophical values that are constantly in conflict. Because each side has Universalized their positions and made use of intractable absolutes, the discussion will never end and ONLY serves the purpose of causing a massive fight, where one side gets accused of murder and the other gets accused of supporting religious bigotry and overpopulation. There will never be a solution, it will rarely change peoples mind and all it does is cause a rather pathetic verbal sparring match.
That's why its a troll topic.
Cain,
meta-debating this bitch.
Quote from: Cain on January 10, 2008, 07:42:51 PM
I don't see you as a troll, I see the entire topic as a troll.
It doesn't matter who debate it or where. In can be in Parliament, on Crossfire or on outlandish internet forums. The parameters of the discussion are pre-set, and loaded with political, cultural and philosophical values that are constantly in conflict. Because each side has Universalized their positions and made use of intractable absolutes, the discussion will never end and ONLY serves the purpose of causing a massive fight, where one side gets accused of murder and the other gets accused of supporting religious bigotry and overpopulation. There will never be a solution, it will rarely change peoples mind and all it does is cause a rather pathetic verbal sparring match.
That's why its a troll topic.
Cain,
meta-debating this bitch.
Let's hug.
Cain wins at abortion.
it's true. that's one of the first things i thought of when writing my comment. if people have an opinion on abortion, they're not gonna change it. i know i'm not so why should they?
pfft. Tell that to Mitt Romney.
also, i think i'm quoting somebody from here:
ABORTION IS MURDER
MISCARRIAGE IS MANSLAUGHTER
I think abortions should be mandatory.
Failing that, that parents should have the option to have a post-natal abortion up until about the 36th trimester.
after all, it's a mother's choice to strangle her kids
Quote from: triple zero on January 10, 2008, 07:52:47 PM
it's true. that's one of the first things i thought of when writing my comment. if people have an opinion on abortion, they're not gonna change it. i know i'm not so why should they?
Agreed.
One point I failed to get across was that the Pro-lifers and usually just that.
Pro-life, not anti-choice.
Quote from: Cain on January 10, 2008, 07:42:51 PM
where one side gets accused of murder and the other gets accused of supporting religious bigotry and overpopulation.
Quote from: Cain on January 10, 2008, 03:24:14 AM
That's assuming they're eating chicken eggs, and not human ones.
Also, I disagree with the entire premise of this thread.
Mmmm, human caviar!
I wonder how many human ova it would take to make a delicious cracker spread?
FTR, overpopulation is bullshit. the earth technically could support a population of 100 billion humans, if humans weren't so incredibly bad at resource distribution.
Quote from: vexati0n on January 10, 2008, 08:05:56 PM
FTR, overpopulation is bullshit. the earth technically could support a population of 100 billion humans, if humans weren't so incredibly bad at resource distribution.
But they're not. Sure, theoretically it could support that high a population, but in theory the Free Market will make beer a penny a pint if we have enough competing companies.
Refer to your Black Mass thread in OKM, except we are the ones with the solution, and nobody gets in our way.
Quote from: vexati0n on January 10, 2008, 08:05:56 PM
FTR, overpopulation is bullshit. the earth technically could support a population of 100 billion humans, if humans weren't so incredibly bad at resource distribution.
Yeah, but why should it? That doesn't sound like fun AT ALL.
I'm pro-choice, no I haven't had an abortion. No I don't rally against pro-lifers, but I do have a good time when I go to Planned Parenthood or any Woman's Clinic for other purposes (they do more than just abortions, people!!)
Yeah, the 'ball of jelly' is living cells, but there are extenuating circumstances...always. More power to the women who love kids and can be a mom. Me? If I get pregnant, either I miscarry or have to have an abortion unless I take a lot of supplements or get some sort of laser all up in my vag. On top of that, I've accepted the fact that I'd be a shitty mother anyway and can't wait until I'm old enough to get my tubes tied or my uterus rots enough to get a hysterectomy. (I have severe endometriosis, my cycle alone causes me to double over in pain usually for a good week before I bleed. TMI, I know...but we're talking about killing babies.)
You shouldn't use it as last-minute birth control, not only is it incredibly unhealthy, but they have pills for that now. I wanted to smack my sister this year after having two, yes TWO abortions within 10 months of each other. Christ, be a bit smarter when having sex. If you're old enough to have sex, then you need to be educated enough on how to do it safely. No glove, no love.
But then there should be another option...
What about crack babies? What about the poor who can't afford kids and aren't trying to find work? Shit, I knew girls in Florida that popped out kids regularly just to get more money from the state. Those people just need to be sterilized, imo.
Or maybe...Sterilization at birth should be mandatory for one out of every 10 female infants to control population!
Or chosen by impartial lottery. Lol.
*nurse walks into room with newborn girl to mommy*
"Congrats! You will never be a grandmother!"
:|
Quote from: Cain on January 10, 2008, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on January 10, 2008, 08:05:56 PM
FTR, overpopulation is bullshit. the earth technically could support a population of 100 billion humans, if humans weren't so incredibly bad at resource distribution.
But they're not. Sure, theoretically it could support that high a population, but in theory the Free Market will make beer a penny a pint if we have enough competing companies.
also, i heard it was 10 billion?
and
we need that HIMEOBS: it lazerz the uterus pic ITT
The chip in my head tells me that it is all because of the Population of the median white middle class that is declining due to cost of living and that the abortion issue is an attempt correct this. Infanticide has existed throughout history, from ancient greece all the way into modern times. Often practiced for culling out unwanted children for whatever reason. I believe they are trying to guilt people into having more children for the coming storm, if that makes sense then my chip is working properly. If not then I need to adjust my tin foil hat.
lol
there are no problems in the world to prepare for.
we have TiVo, man! TIVO!
what could go wrong?
Quote from: vexati0n on January 11, 2008, 06:57:56 AM
lol
there are no problems in the world to prepare for.
we have TiVo, man! TIVO!
what could go wrong?
The fact that the writer's strike ensures your Tivo will record nothing but "Deal or no Deal" and "Dancing with the Stars".
People have actually cited the writers strike as to why people are getting more interested in politics and the election primaries.
So in short, Sex and the City is what got people like Bush elected.
jon stewart and stephen colbert seem to be getting along okay without their writers, and they are the only reasons i have a tv or cable service anyway.
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2008, 02:25:41 PM
People have actually cited the writers strike as to why people are getting more interested in politics and the election primaries.
So in short, Sex and the City is what got people like Bush elected.
then we should ban the writers' guild every election year
Quote from: vexati0n on January 11, 2008, 02:27:31 PM
jon stewart and stephen colbert seem to be getting along okay without their writers, and they are the only reasons i have a tv or cable service anyway.
You know you can watch them on the internet for free, right?
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2008, 02:25:41 PM
People have actually cited the writers strike as to why people are getting more interested in politics and the election primaries.
So in short, Sex and the City is what got people like Bush elected.
I believe it. Of course it also helps that many cable news outlets have essentially turned the Presidential elections into a neverending reality show.
I am so glad I don't watch television. The writers strike might have affected me. Goodness wouldn't that be sad. No they don't let me watch TV they say it isn't healthy for my brain. I think they just don't want me to know what is going on in the outside world!
You've got better chances finding accurate news on the tube spheres than on tv, Bhar.
OK, multiple comments to make here so I will use the popular bullet form.
1. I'm with Cramulus here, I think even up to 18 years after birth can you do the Abortion thingee. Ain't my business
2. Soylent Green is people
3. How come no one said the popular: "Ever notice anti-abortion peeps are also pro-death penalty?"
4. Ever notice how lots of people say, "I am personally against abortion but it is the woman's right to choose?" Thats some half-assed shit
5. I am a misanthrope, I hate the human race, (and YOU especially. Yes, YOU) so I say sterilize everyone and be done with this shit already
6. Failing number 5, I think 10% of the Baby Boomers should voluntarily commit suicide in order to allow resources to continue. Hell, #5 and #6 would be OK too
7. I don't own a TV the few shows The Fahtzom Cabal approves of (30 Rock, Jericho and Lost) are through the interwebs
8. yes, I am a sterotypical Anarcho-Left Wing NY Jewish Intellectual.
9. Oh, most parents suck so I think all children should be taken away at birth and raised in children's communal centers.
10. I'd like to re-iterate that Soylent Green is people.
As Chairman Mao said, "Just because something never has been doesn't mean in cannot be, G-Money." G-Money in this case being Stalin.
Quote from: Apikoros II on January 13, 2008, 01:03:44 PM
I am a misanthrope, I hate the human race, (and YOU especially. Yes, YOU)
fuck you
i love you
have a fluffy bunny
QuoteI think 10% of the Baby Boomers should voluntarily commit suicide in order to allow resources to continue.
and save the dolphins, right?
SAVE THE FUCKING DOLPHINS
AND SET FREE THE BUFFALO BUFFALO BUFFALO ...
Quote from: Apikoros II on January 13, 2008, 01:03:44 PM
3. How come no one said the popular: "Ever notice anti-abortion peeps are also pro-death penalty?"
4. Ever notice how lots of people say, "I am personally against abortion but it is the woman's right to choose?" Thats some half-assed shit
5. I am a misanthrope, I hate the human race, (and YOU especially. Yes, YOU) so I say sterilize everyone and be done with this shit already
8. yes, I am a sterotypical Anarcho-Left Wing NY Jewish Intellectual.
10. I'd like to re-iterate that Soylent Green is people.
3. That stance makes sense to me. I am Pro-death, which I think is a good consistant stance. Pro-abortion, Pro-Capital Punishment, Pro-Euthanasia. In fact, under my regime, the death penalty would be applied to child molesters.
4. Sort of agreed. It does seem a bit weak to say "I won't kill, but you go ahead and do what you want. I appreciate they're staying out of y buisness, though.
5. Likewise
8. wut
10 . Soylent Green is your mom.
I am personally against green peppers, but I support your right to choose.
Quote from: Nigel on January 13, 2008, 09:33:22 PM
I am personally against green peppers, but I support your right to choose.
FUCK YOU! MY MOM DIED OF BEING PERSONALLY AGAINST GREEN PEPPERS!
[ / old meme]
lol.
Suu
- <3's peppers.
FUCK YOU SUU, MY MOM DIED FROM ABUSE OF OLD MEMES!
FUCK YOU CAIN SOMEBODY DIED
FROM SOMETHING!!!
Quote from: Apikoros II on January 13, 2008, 01:03:44 PM
4. Ever notice how lots of people say, "I am personally against abortion but it is the woman's right to choose?" Thats some half-assed shit.
Assuming, of course, the range of opinions and stances on abortion are as linear as they are portrayed on the evening news. As a Discordian you should realize that there are always multiple possibilities.
Quote5. I am a misanthrope, I hate the human race, (and YOU especially. Yes, YOU) so I say sterilize everyone and be done with this shit already
6. Failing number 5, I think 10% of the Baby Boomers should voluntarily commit suicide in order to allow resources to continue. Hell, #5 and #6 would be OK too
For someone talking about "half-assed shit" you seem to have a keen interest in using the Easy Button to solve problems.
Quote
9. Oh, most parents suck so I think all children should be taken away at birth and raised in children's communal centers.
What an outlandish thing to say. :roll:
(rwhn, pssst wtf does this mean: "As a Discordian you should--")
(not that i dont agree with your general statement, but you know .. )
True, I shouldn't assume one is a Discordian. Perhaps it should have read, "One who is open minded should..."
i was actually talking about the bit where it seemed like you were trying to tell a discordian what to do
but never mind, really :)
Morning-after pill TOTALLY =/= getting your uterus sucked out.
I don't want to get super involved in this, but there can be numerous reasons people get the morning after pill:
1) condom broke.
2) "well, I'm on the pill, but I haven't been really good about taking it on time lately, and I accidentally didn't even take it at all last night... Shit... better be safe."
3) date rape
4) yeah, just a damn idiot who didn't use any contraceptives.
I'd say the majority are in categories 1 and 4.
But frankly, getting the morning after pill is a RESPONSIBLE thing to do. And minimizes abortions.
There we are. Other than throwing that in there, I would really like to not get involved in this. So... time to go reheat my lunch, huzzah!
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2008, 05:22:04 PM
Morning-after pill TOTALLY =/= getting your uterus sucked out.
Especially when the baby WAS planned.
Quote from: triple zero on January 14, 2008, 05:06:09 PM
i was actually talking about the bit where it seemed like you were trying to tell a discordian what to do
but never mind, really :)
I know, I know. I just thought his statement was very limiting, and frankly IMO, pretty inane. Especially when he goes on to advocate the genocide of old people. (yeah, I know. I'm sure he was exaggerating for effect.)
Of course it is quite valid and possible for someone to be personally against abortion and pro-choice. Becuase, hello, that's what Pro-Choice means, having a choice. When one says that someone can't be anti-abortion personally and pro-abortion socially they are assuming that this person is like many on the right, and really snoopy and invasive in others lives.
I just tend to think, if one is a Discordian, if one is open-minded, they would be able to recognize the folly of that kind of logic. But whatever floats his boat.
Of course, he could have just been acting the wise-ass.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 14, 2008, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2008, 05:22:04 PM
Morning-after pill TOTALLY =/= getting your uterus sucked out.
Especially when the baby WAS planned.
Or not planned, though you meant to keep it anyway but your body kicked it out regardless. :|
It's a miserable experience, folks, but I'm kinda glad they go through with it when miscarriage is inevitable rather than having to pass the fetus normally.
D&E is a horrible experience... I can't imagine it's that much less horrible when the pregnancy was unplanned, rather than a planned fetus dying in the womb. A sane woman would not *want* to go through that experience a second time. I've never had the new "morning after" pill but I did have the old one once, when I was 18... it made me puke all day and the cramping was unreal.
This is reminding me to make an appointment for an IUD.
Quote from: Nigel on January 14, 2008, 07:52:03 PM
This is reminding me to make an appointment for an IUD.
TITCM
-DC
Lurves her Mirena
Yeah, since you told me about your's D-Cup I've been considering it myself if it won't affect the endo.
I tried a Mirena a few years ago and it gave me daily headaches so I had it removed. I can't have anything with hormones without t fucking me all up.
Before that, I had a Copper T, which I loved for the two years I had it before becoming pregnant with my youngest daughter. Not exactly a resounding endorsement, but I'm going to go get another one for backup because condoms alone just aren't enough to keep my mind at ease.
Hormones actually help my bleeding, but I gain a lot of weight. :| Then when I got off of my last scrip of pills, I started growing course facial hair on my chin because it fucked me up. I know, right? Sexy.
I'd be willing to try the copper one.
The copper one was nice because after some initial cramping and heavy bleeding (I have fibroids so my periods suck anyway) I couldn't tell it was there... no side effects whatsoever. And the unexpected pregnancy was such a fluke... has to happen to somebody, and I have to say I do love that girl... even though she is some sort of powerhouse of crazy. :)
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 14, 2008, 05:45:20 PM
Becuase, hello, that's what Pro-Choice means, having a choice.
Hold Up.
Pro-Choice does not mean having a choice. Pro-choice is a term used to make their cause sound just and good. They are Pro-abortion. If they were pro-choice, they would let me choose to get a machine gun and a 2 pound bag of PCP. Pro-abortion sounds ugly.
Other side: Pro-Lifers are not pro-life, they are anti-abortion. They generally don't think twice about murdering prisoners or bombing orphanages in Brown places.
If your going to be open-minded, by open minded to the fact that the scum-fuckers on both sides of this argument are using language to cloud the issue.
Quote from: Faust on January 14, 2008, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2008, 05:22:04 PM
Morning-after pill TOTALLY =/= getting your uterus sucked out.
what about cheap no name brand knock offs?
dude, did you actually GET any sexual education in highschool?
a morning after pill got basically the same stuff in it as about 3 or 4 anticonception pills (depending on the strength of anticonception a girl usually takes, a girl who is used to low-dose anticonception can in fact use a simple high-dose anticonception pill as a morning after pill).
if you do that the morning after, you'll force some kind of menstruation-like effect, which expulses the possibly-fertilized egg in a reasonably normal way. [ok this might not be entirely accurate, but it's sort of what's happening right?]
sometimes the woman feels ill or sick, but not always, and still, it beats pregnancy.
anyway, when this happens because of the morning after pill, there is NOTHING being killed that was previously alive. unless you count the sperm cells, which are being killed by the millions every conception anyway, because "There Can Be Only One".
it takes a while, often longer than the morning after, before even the fertilized egg-cell starts dividing, and it takes an even longer time before, personally, i would consider it more "alive" or "human" than whatever mould is growing in my garbage cans.
on the other hand, abortion is physically going into the vagina/uterus and taking the unborn baby OUT.
sorry, i know, in certain countries they just don't teach this shit, like i had to BEG my austrian girlfriend to start using the pill (god have i been so stupid a few times, fortunately i'm not a father now :) though, morning after pills have only been needed when condoms broke) cause she was just scared shitless of the stuff, for no apparent reason at all.
Quote from: Suu Fett on January 14, 2008, 08:54:21 PM...I started growing course facial hair on my chin...Sexy.
paging WOMP!
would WOMP please report to the thread?
lol, my apologies :) i totally missed that.
(though my austrian ex seriously was quite ignorant about this stuff, and ireland isnt really known for its accepting stance on abortion, either.)
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2008, 09:59:33 PM
Quote from: Suu Fett on January 14, 2008, 08:54:21 PM...I started growing course facial hair on my chin...Sexy.
paging WOMP!
would WOMP please report to the thread?
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/bin/suulincoln.jpg)
I'd hit it!
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 01:30:19 PM
So if I come to your house to murder your wife, and you stop me, aren't you just telling me what I can't do?
1. I wouldn't stop you. She would.
2. Maria has been born, ergo she is a person.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 01:30:19 PM
You don't comdemn the fact that its legal some places for muslim men to kill their wives and daughters for insolence?
No. I don't give a shit about them.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 01:30:19 PM
I'm arguing for the people that believe in the sanctity of life.
And who might that be?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 01:39:37 PM
I secceeded from the US long ago.
Let us know how that works out for you on April 14th.
Quote from: Faust on January 10, 2008, 02:50:10 PM
they just would not want to see it become a form of contraception to be used several times a year (and that probably would happen).
Hasn't happened here - where abortion is legal - on any measurable scale.
So why would it happen there?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 07:33:31 PM
This is my way of sticking up for somebody.
1. Who are you, and what have you done to Hunter?
2. Sticking up for someone is not necessarily an admirable thing.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 08:00:50 PM
Agreed.
One point I failed to get across was that the Pro-lifers and usually just that.
Pro-life, not anti-choice.
Please explain the difference.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 14, 2008, 09:18:03 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 14, 2008, 05:45:20 PM
Becuase, hello, that's what Pro-Choice means, having a choice.
Hold Up.
Pro-Choice does not mean having a choice.
Um, no, it means having the choice between having an abortion and not having an abortion.
Or green peppers or no green peppers. Just because I don't want them doesn't mean I think NOBODY should eat them, if they really WANT to.
Quote from: Nigel on January 15, 2008, 04:14:35 AM
Or green peppers or no green peppers. Just because I don't want them doesn't mean I think NOBODY should eat them, if they really WANT to.
MURDERING SCUM! :argh!:
CAN'T YOU SEE HE IS TRYING TO SUPPORT STUFF?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 15, 2008, 04:45:59 AM
Quote from: Nigel on January 15, 2008, 04:14:35 AM
Or green peppers or no green peppers. Just because I don't want them doesn't mean I think NOBODY should eat them, if they really WANT to.
MURDERING SCUM! :argh!:
CAN'T YOU SEE HE IS TRYING TO SUPPORT STUFF?
I am totally going to plant a WHOLE FIELD of green peppers that ANYBODY can eat or not eat if they feel like it!
And I'm going to have an abortion every month whether I need it or not, because I'm PRO-CHOICE!
Quote from: Nigel on January 15, 2008, 05:16:14 AM
And I'm going to have an abortion every month whether I need it or not, because I'm PRO-CHOICE!
I will FORCE you to have that abortion, because I too am PRO-CHOICE!
HIMEOBS jacks the aborted babies and they finish their development in HIMEOBS Warrior PodsTM
... Sometimes they show the mother a fake fetus to leave no doubt.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 15, 2008, 02:52:32 AM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 01:39:37 PM
I secceeded from the US long ago.
Let us know how that works out for you on April 14th.
It works out fine. Remember: I don't work.
As for everything else you've said, this is something I can't talk to you about, as you apparently believe that every Pro-lifer is a religious kook, out to steal your right to vacuum out fetus jelly. MAybe you missed my point in all of this, or maybe You can't be bothered with the possibility that maybe someone is trying to do something good (which I understand.) Probably both.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 15, 2008, 02:56:12 AM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 08:00:50 PM
Agreed.
One point I failed to get across was that the Pro-lifers and usually just that.
Pro-life, not anti-choice.
Please explain the difference.
Intent.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 14, 2008, 09:18:03 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 14, 2008, 05:45:20 PM
Becuase, hello, that's what Pro-Choice means, having a choice.
Hold Up.
Pro-Choice does not mean having a choice. Pro-choice is a term used to make their cause sound just and good. They are Pro-abortion. If they were pro-choice, they would let me choose to get a machine gun and a 2 pound bag of PCP. Pro-abortion sounds ugly.
Other side: Pro-Lifers are not pro-life, they are anti-abortion. They generally don't think twice about murdering prisoners or bombing orphanages in Brown places.
If your going to be open-minded, by open minded to the fact that the scum-fuckers on both sides of this argument are using language to cloud the issue.
I'm really focusing on this from a fundamental point of view, which is informed by my own personal opinion of course. Obviously, both sides can bastardize their slogans Pro-Choice and Pro-Life. However, fundamentally, Pro-Choice should be just that, Pro-Choice. That means one has the right to
their choice. Obviously, if they start casting that opinion upon others, if they try to overly influence a young pregnant woman to get an abortion, then they've gone beyond the fundamentals of their position.
But me personally, I believe in choice, for me personally. Although, I'm really in a point of my life where it really isn't much of an issue. I mean, if my wife said she was pregnant tomorrow, it would be a no-brainer that we're gonna go forward with it. But I equally respect someone else in that same position who decides not to. It's not my business, and that's the way it should be.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 15, 2008, 01:47:02 PM
However, fundamentally, Pro-Choice should be just that, Pro-Choice. That means one has the right to their choice.
So all Pro-choicers should be Libertarians or Anarchists.
Don't infringe on a corporation's right to dump toxic waste in the rivers, and use their revenues to buy 8-year-old Fillipino lady-boy hooker. They CHOOSE to do that, who are you to stop them?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 15, 2008, 01:54:39 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 15, 2008, 01:47:02 PM
However, fundamentally, Pro-Choice should be just that, Pro-Choice. That means one has the right to their choice.
So all Pro-choicers should be Libertarians or Anarchists.
Don't infringe on a corporation's right to dump toxic waste in the rivers, and use their revenues to buy 8-year-old Fillipino lady-boy hooker. They CHOOSE to do that, who are you to stop them?
Okay, number one, there are laws and regulations governing waters and having sex slaves in this country. As well the laws in place support a woman's right to choose whether or not to have an abortion.
Number two, I would argue that, at least dumping toxic waste into the river, has the potential to have an
unavoidable impact on others compared to the abortion. I stress the "unavoidable" because I've been in these debates before and the arguement I always here is that the taking away of innocent life impacts all. I would argue that if someone is invested in that paradigm then yes, abortion does impact those people. But that's because they choose to be impacted.
With the toxic waste in the river, that can affect the food supply through fresh-water fish. Also, if the water from the river feeds into any acquifers it can potentially impact drinking water. Sure one can choose not to eat fish, but it's hard to avoid drinking water.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 15, 2008, 01:54:39 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 15, 2008, 01:47:02 PM
However, fundamentally, Pro-Choice should be just that, Pro-Choice. That means one has the right to their choice.
So all Pro-choicers should be Libertarians or Anarchists.
Don't infringe on a corporation's right to dump toxic waste in the rivers, and use their revenues to buy 8-year-old Fillipino lady-boy hooker. They CHOOSE to do that, who are you to stop them?
irrelevant, because most CEOs are men.
It's a
women's right to choose.
The question comes down to do fertilized eggs = children?
I think no, unless they're at the stage where they could actually survive outside the womb. Hunter thinks otherwise, and while I respect his fucktarded position, I think it wrong. And he thinks the same about mine.
See what I mean (meta-arguments post, universalized positions)?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 15, 2008, 01:54:39 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 15, 2008, 01:47:02 PM
However, fundamentally, Pro-Choice should be just that, Pro-Choice. That means one has the right to their choice.
So all Pro-choicers should be Libertarians or Anarchists.
Don't infringe on a corporation's right to dump toxic waste in the rivers, and use their revenues to buy 8-year-old Fillipino lady-boy hooker. They CHOOSE to do that, who are you to stop them?
shit, I missed out on all the good stuff when I was incorporated.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 15, 2008, 02:04:43 PM
Number two, I would argue that, at least dumping toxic waste into the river, has the potential to have an unavoidable impact on others compared to the abortion.
Point successfully missed again.
I thought the argument was about choice, not the potential impact those choices have.
In the mind of a pro-lifer, the choice of abortion murders a living baby. (Taking it a step further, some say "That baby, could've grown up to cure cancer, or invent Playstation 4." I won't go there, as "if's and but's" can get outta hand.)
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 02:06:42 PM
I think no, unless they're at the stage where they could actually survive outside the womb. Hunter thinks otherwise, and while I respect his fucktarded position, I think it wrong. And he thinks the same about mine.
If you've stayed tuned, you would've noted I don't actually know or care what that thing is. That thing about murder was an attention grabber to lead to a bigger point.
Well excuse me for not reading every single post in the forum. Some us occasionally have to study.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 10, 2008, 12:16:32 AM
The anti-abortion cause? Look, I don't really know if that little thing is alive, but isn't there something good and pure about someone who is trying to prevent murder? I'm not talking about the fanatics and the bombers, but the sign holders and the rally starters. When someone does it for a death row inmate or a whale they are applauded for their sacrifice, but someone stopping baby murder is an evil fanatic? Doesn't make sense to me. I've seen stupider causes than saving babies.
It's in the OP, college boy.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 15, 2008, 02:21:33 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 15, 2008, 02:04:43 PM
Number two, I would argue that, at least dumping toxic waste into the river, has the potential to have an unavoidable impact on others compared to the abortion.
Point successfully missed again.
I thought the argument was about choice, not the potential impact those choices have.
In the mind of a pro-lifer, the choice of abortion murders a living baby. (Taking it a step further, some say "That baby, could've grown up to cure cancer, or invent Playstation 4." I won't go there, as "if's and but's" can get outta hand.)
Yes, but the latter is always attached to the former, inextricably. If it were purely about choice, just plain choice, with no considerations of consequences, morality, etc., then there would be no public debate. It would be as benign as the choice of whether or not to continue that subscription to Sports Illustrated.
But of course, humans place such a high value on human life that it is what it is. Society frowns upon having a casual or indifferent attitude about the ceasing of a human life. Whether it be in the earliest stages of egghood and fetushood, or pulling the plug on a terminally ill and suffering cancer patient.
A woman should have dominion over her body, and what happens inside of it. Humanity will never be unanimous 100% on what to classify or call developing humanity in the womb. It's a fetus, it's a person, it's a zygote, it's a this, it's a that... Those who are against abortion should continue to have their opinions, and state them. But action, in my opinion, should be limited to what happens within one's own household and body.
Doesn't negate my above point. Read it again. If its not murder then these people have no reason to try and force their position on others, in which case these people are fanatical morons. No difference between them and the people who try and make women wear the niqab in public.
you're feeling awfully absolute today, huh?
Look, if you're going to bring that argument over here, just don't bother.
Cain,
starting to get sick of this shit
look, you can get pissy if you want, but all it does is suggest that you (who are usually so eloquent when arguing a position) don't have any way to back up your point.
Read your post again. by that logic, everyone who votes in an election is trying to force their position on others and is therefor a fanatical moron.
in fact, you seem to be forcing your position on others, your position being that anyone who forces their position on others is a fanatical moron.
I'm not really trying to bust your balls, just pointing out that you are undercutting your own argument.
and reminding you that just because you're YOU doesn't mean that you're exempt from having your statements critically analyzed. I think some of us (myself among them) have been sliding too far towards that way of thinking lately.
Well I'd love to share my opinion, but I might be trying to force others into it by suggesting they be allowed to have a choice (lol wut?).
Fuck off. I'd tear that bullshit you just said to shreds, but what's the point? It wouldn't sound half as snazzy as a trite piece of fake argumentation and logical fallacy, and we all know that is what really matters.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 02:58:21 PM
and reminding you that just because you're YOU doesn't mean that you're exempt from having your statements critically analyzed. I think some of us (myself among them) have been sliding too far towards that way of thinking lately.
Oh, so now I'm asking people treat me to a different standard?
Poison some other wells, I'm not playing.
You're applying your knowledge set to their morals.
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 02:36:45 PM
If its not murder then these people have no reason to try and force their position on others, in which case these people are fanatical morons. No difference between them and the people who try and make women wear the niqab in public.
They think it IS murder.
We're mixing apples and oranges here.
Let's use a parable, as Jesus did when he condemned abortion:
I am schizophrenic. I murder a woman who I believe to be the future mother of the anti-christ.
The question here isn't whether I should be locked up. It's was am I a "bad" person? I say the answer is no, I was crazy and thought I was doing right. I wasn't fundamentally bad in my actions, just mixed-up.
You are answering my proposal of "Pro-lifers aren't evil," with "a fetus isn't a human."
But in your chosen example, there is a question of mental health, which raises questions about being able to assess arguments and information critically. A person who is against abortion can critically assess standard biological and medical knowledge, as well as various moral positions to decide if a fetus can be considered a person or not. Since polls have shown that more educated people are inclined to agree with pro-choice decisions, it would suggest that educated people with access to more information and possessing better analytical skills are better placed to make a decision, and have.
Admittedly, there is still a large minority of educated people who disagree, but generally they focus their rhetoric on trying to push back the final date for an abortion, not banning it outright.
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 03:01:41 PM
Well I'd love to share my opinion, but I might be trying to force others into it by suggesting they be allowed to have a choice (lol wut?).
Fuck off. I'd tear that bullshit you just said to shreds, but what's the point? It wouldn't sound half as snazzy as a trite piece of fake argumentation and logical fallacy, and we all know that is what really matters.
1. I'm not saying that I think that people should be allowed to legislate choices out of existence, but they certainly have the right to publically and vocally voice their own opinions. you seem to be saying that if their opinion is that abortion is murder that this makes them fanatical morons regardless of their legislative intent. how does believing that life begins at conception equate to being a fanatical moron?
2. by all means, tear anything I've said here to shreds. I won't take it personally and I may very well be missing an important point. It'd be alot more conducive to an intelligent discussion than what I perceive to be your form of intellectual sulking.
remember, arguing against your position != tearing you down personally
Sorry, not playing.
I'm being "pissy". Go find someone else to do your critical thinking. I did some, but apparently I was being pissy and a hypocrite.
you ARE being pissy.
recognize and move on, for fuck's sake. The intellectual aspects of this discussion are, frankly, very interesting.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 14, 2008, 11:28:22 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 14, 2008, 09:59:33 PM
Quote from: Suu Fett on January 14, 2008, 08:54:21 PM...I started growing course facial hair on my chin...Sexy.
paging WOMP!
would WOMP please report to the thread?
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/bin/suulincoln.jpg)
ITT: Potential inspiration for my Steampunk costume naow.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 03:30:58 PM
you ARE being pissy.
recognize and move on, for fuck's sake. The intellectual aspects of this discussion are, frankly, very interesting.
Yes, I am NOW. I get like that when people decide to go out of their way to provoke me.
And I don't take well to orders. Since apparently no-one is now interested in keeping civil discussion alive in this thread, why should I bother to carry on?
dude, fucking UNGH.
no one is going out of their way to provoke you. If anything, it appears as though you've gone out of your way to be provoked.
no one is giving you orders, nor anything that could reasonably misconstrued as such.
and if no one is interested in keeping civil discussion alive ITT, then why am I going to such great lengths to do just that?
if you just want to pick a fight that's your business, but I'm not interested.
You came in here looking for a fight, then backed out when I responded in kind.
But obviously different standards apply to me, right?
looking for a spirited intellectual debate != looking for a fight
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 15, 2008, 02:05:17 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 15, 2008, 01:54:39 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 15, 2008, 01:47:02 PM
However, fundamentally, Pro-Choice should be just that, Pro-Choice. That means one has the right to their choice.
So all Pro-choicers should be Libertarians or Anarchists.
Don't infringe on a corporation's right to dump toxic waste in the rivers, and use their revenues to buy 8-year-old Fillipino lady-boy hooker. They CHOOSE to do that, who are you to stop them?
irrelevant, because most CEOs are men.
It's a women's right to choose.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: Now you're on it...
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 03:30:58 PM
you ARE being pissy.
recognize and move on, for fuck's sake. The intellectual aspects of this discussion are, frankly, very interesting.
I'm sure they are, for those who haven't seen this exact conversation (minus the injections of silliness) 43,000 times on Usenet.
Quote from: Pope Lecherous on January 15, 2008, 06:00:31 AM
HIMEOBS jacks the aborted babies and they finish their development in HIMEOBS Warrior PodsTM
... Sometimes they show the mother a fake fetus to leave no doubt.
It's a battle between HIMEOBS, who are pro-abortion for the purposes of building their army, and Christians, who are anti-abortion because if the unwanted babies are aborted they will have nothing to eat.
Quote from: Nigel on January 15, 2008, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 03:30:58 PM
you ARE being pissy.
recognize and move on, for fuck's sake. The intellectual aspects of this discussion are, frankly, very interesting.
I'm sure they are, for those who haven't seen this exact conversation (minus the injections of silliness) 43,000 times on Usenet.
What's a Usenet?
anyway, if you don't find it interesting, you're free to make the choice to not click on this thread.
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 03:15:24 PM
Since polls have shown that more educated people are inclined to agree with pro-choice decisions, it would suggest that educated people with access to more information and possessing better analytical skills are better placed to make a decision, and have.
Polls? Educated people? Meaningless.
Bush went to Yale, and online polls have Ron Paul being elected Grand Moff.
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 03:15:24 PM
A person who is against abortion can critically assess standard biological and medical knowledge, as well as various moral positions to decide if a fetus can be considered a person or not.
Simply because their conclusions are different (abortion is murder, murder is wrong) it doesn't neccissarily make them wrong or, more importantly, irrational.They aren't bad people because they came up with a different conclusion.
Anyway, this whole thread seems to have proven my point.
You're all freedom loving intellectuals, saving the world from the evil Jesus-lovers out to take away all of your rights. It's impossible for someone to rationally conclude that a fetus is alive, and it's an affront to Eris to try and stop someone from committing murder, as long as you don't believe it's murder.
They are closed minded for not hearing you out, and you're heroic for not hearing them out.
And the most disgusting thing in this whole epic quagmire:
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 03:22:02 PM
1. I'm not saying that I think that people should be allowed to legislate choices out of existence, but they certainly have the right to publically and vocally voice their own opinions. you seem to be saying that if their opinion is that abortion is murder that this makes them fanatical morons regardless of their legislative intent. how does believing that life begins at conception equate to being a fanatical moron?
ECH, of all people, is the one guy who is getting it.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 09:36:46 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 15, 2008, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 03:30:58 PM
you ARE being pissy.
recognize and move on, for fuck's sake. The intellectual aspects of this discussion are, frankly, very interesting.
I'm sure they are, for those who haven't seen this exact conversation (minus the injections of silliness) 43,000 times on Usenet.
What's a Usenet?
anyway, if you don't find it interesting, you're free to make the choice to not click on this thread.
I'm finding it amusing, which is reason enough to click on it.
srsly though...
what's a Usenet?
also, Hunter, I think that alot of people are conflating your stance that Abortion is, indeed, murder with the idea that it should be made illegal. Nowhere in this thread did I see you opine that abortion should be illegal or legislatively fucked with in any way. If I understood you corectly, you posited that while legal abortions are necessary and should not be infringed upon, it is still taking a life and should be discussed as such if we are to be intellectually honest; also that people who felt strongly enough about the issue to voice their opinion publicly should not automatically be dismissed as fundie nutjobs. Personally, I think that abortion IS taking a life and IS morally unfortunate ("wrong" is far too absolute for my taste in this context) and I would implore any woman that I impregnated to keep the baby even if it meant that I had to raised it myself. I would never, however, advocate any legal infringement on a woman's right to make that decision for herself. But I think that most of those who do advocate that course of action do so out of an honest desire to maintain the sanctity of human life (regardless of what they think about the death penalty or euthanasia or any of that shit; it's irrelevant conflation and anyway, we can't go around expecting every schmuck on the street to be that self-aware) and not out of an evil desire to subjugate those damn slut women. Remember, for every clinic bomber/doctor shooter/Jerry Falwell, there are thousands of generally good people who just have a misguided solution to a problem that is important to them. Who are we to crucify them?
this probably deserves its own thread, but I'm bothered by the attitude of alot of people on this board that WE know what's best for everyone else because WE are somehow more enlightened.
IIRC, the Khmer Rouge had the same idea. And no, I'm not really comparing PD.com to a genocidal authoritarian regime, but every path is made up of steps.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
But I think that most of those who do advocate that course of action do so out of an honest desire to maintain the sanctity of human life (regardless of what they think about the death penalty or euthanasia or any of that shit; it's irrelevant conflation and anyway, we can't go around expecting every schmuck on the street to be that self-aware) and not out of an evil desire to subjugate those damn slut women. Remember, for every clinic bomber/doctor shooter/Jerry Falwell, there are thousands of generally good people who just have a misguided solution to a problem that is important to them. Who are we to crucify them?
This was the point that continually got buried. I'm not sure whether everyone's mind got completely clouded by the "fist-in-the-dick" way I originally presented my stance (in the opening of the OP), or whether the "us v. them" instinct kicked in at the scent of a controversial topic, but somehow things got fucked. I was honestly starting to wonder if I was losing my mind again, and not typing what I thought I was. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that someone with a drasticly opposing viewpoint might not be pure evil incarnate.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
If I understood you corectly, you posited that while legal abortions are necessary and should not be infringed upon, it is still taking a life and should be discussed as such if we are to be intellectually honest;
I actually go a step further, and agree with people like Cain, that the jelly lump isn't even human yet. It's not taking a life in my eyes. However, the Pro-lifers don't see through my eyes, and I can respect and recognize that.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
this probably deserves its own thread, but I'm bothered by the attitude of alot of people on this board that WE know what's best for everyone else because WE are somehow more enlightened.
Start it up, see where it goes. We like to call ourselves open-minded, but isn't hard-lined absolutism on issues why we hate the Grays?
Dude, I agreed with you in my first post in this thread. I totally get your point, and I know anti-abortion people who aren't evil, insane baby-eating Christian terrorists. A lot of pagans I have met, of various kinds, are anti-abortion because they feel that abortion is inconsistent with their philosophy about life.
I can respect the anti-abortion viewpoint *when it is consistent*. If abortion is murder, then it's murder *even in cases of rape and incest*, or if the mother has a life-threatening medical condition.
I happen to disagree with them only on one point; that the human life in the womb is a human being. It's human, and it's alive. It gradually develops into a human being. Because this is my perspective, I cannot be convinced that it's murder... at least before the 3-month mark, where, in my view, the whole thing gets sketchy.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 15, 2008, 01:46:38 PM
As for everything else you've said, this is something I can't talk to you about, as you apparently believe that every Pro-lifer is a religious kook,
No, actually, you're the one saying "pro-choice" = "pro-abortion".
Don't make me start with the green peppers again, I actually find it distasteful even to talk about them.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 02:56:44 PM
Read your post again. by that logic, everyone who votes in an election is trying to force their position on others and is therefor a fanatical moron.
So?
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
srsly though...
what's a Usenet?
Wait, are you really being serious about this or are you pulling my leg?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 15, 2008, 03:05:54 PM
They think it IS murder.
"They"? Whose argument are you supporting? Your own? Someone else? What?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on January 15, 2008, 10:20:02 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 03:22:02 PM
1. I'm not saying that I think that people should be allowed to legislate choices out of existence, but they certainly have the right to publically and vocally voice their own opinions. you seem to be saying that if their opinion is that abortion is murder that this makes them fanatical morons regardless of their legislative intent. how does believing that life begins at conception equate to being a fanatical moron?
ECH, of all people, is the one guy who is getting it.
They do have their right to their opinion.
And I have the right to publicly point and laugh at them.
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2008, 04:26:45 AM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
srsly though...
what's a Usenet?
Wait, are you really being serious about this or are you pulling my leg?
dead serious.
is it one of those things you have to put over your hair before you serve food?
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 16, 2008, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2008, 04:26:45 AM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
srsly though...
what's a Usenet?
Wait, are you really being serious about this or are you pulling my leg?
dead serious.
is it one of those things you have to put over your hair before you serve food?
Dude, I am never taking you seriously AGAIN.
actually, I was being serious. I don't really know what usenet is.
Oh, OK. It's one of the parts of the Internet that existed before the World Wide Web, that had these things called "newsgroups" which were more or less like bulletin boards that you could subscribe to. There was (is) a newsgroup for absofuckinlutely EVERYTHING. Every perversion, every interest, every obscure hobby, every celebrity, hatred of every celebrity, furries, people who are into Danny Devito but only if he were a furry, people who hate Danny DeVito furries. You get the picture.
If you subscribe to a usenet feed, you just add them under "groups" in your mailreader. Or you can use Google Groups, but Google Groups sucks ass.
Nigel, you realize by saying "Danny Devito Furry" on this forum, Rule 34 will now have to occur, right?
Leave it to us. Serious abortion debate becomes Danny DeVito furry porn.
I'm still looking for Martha Washington or St. Pauli Girl porn.
4chan's image request board, /r/, was of no help last night
Quote from: LMNO on January 16, 2008, 04:58:05 PM
Nigel, you realize by saying "Danny Devito Furry" on this forum, Rule 34 will now have to occur, right?
Holy shit, I can't wait. I also can't look.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on January 15, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
srsly though...
what's a Usenet?
kinda like oldskool forums/mailinglists of the old internets. oftentimes, if you know how you can get them like email from your ISP. there's zillions of them.
its archives used to be kept by deja.com but were bought by google a couple of years ago. they are now merged with google groups (http://groups.google.com/), but it has posts that date back to 1981 (http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html) (this link is an interesting read, click it).
it is also where internet trolling was born.
more information about old usenet trolls (with links to relevant google groups threads): http://www.searchlores.org/fldigest.htm
Google pnoopy pnats for a chuckle!
My blog has topless Pics of Bea Arthur. For real.
Estelle Getty or GTFO!
/
:argh!:
Quote from: Felix on January 16, 2008, 05:14:40 PM
Leave it to us. Serious abortion debate becomes Danny DeVito furry porn.
It's all Danny DeVito furry porn, on the inside.
Are you guys fucking kidding me?
If someone opts to get an abortion and it offends your sensitive side, then please adjust your damned sensitive side, as it isn't any of you business what other people choose to do.
Quote from: Hawk on January 21, 2008, 05:58:46 AM
Are you guys fucking kidding me?
If someone opts to get an abortion and it offends your sensitive side, then please adjust your damned sensitive side, as it isn't any of you business what other people choose to do.
Ding.
Hunter has decided to go all Mike Huckabee for a while.
I assume he'll get over it.
I fucking hope so.
Link to naked Bea Arthur on my blog: http://apikoros2.wordpress.com/2007/12/24/the-tamud-chachams-of-the-fahtzom-cabal/
Also, if I had to have in my wicked ways one of the Golden Girls it would be Dorothy. I know, I know, Blanche was probably a hell of a lay, but I am a Dorothy Zbornak man.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 21, 2008, 05:59:45 AM
Hunter has decided to go all Mike Huckabee for a while.
You're a fucking idiot.
You didn't read a word of the points that were made in here, and your unwillingness to listen and understand another point of view for ten seconds shows that you're worse than the people you hate.
never mind that you stated plainly and clearly several times that you didn't think that abortion should be illegal.
Roger can't be bothered with things as trivial as facts when he's busy saving humanity.
Abortion IS murder !
As is taking antibiotics or using disinfectant on toilet seats. You all ought to be ashamed!
~ Poke Fing Feng III
I didn't read the whole thread, so ignore if repost:
I think we should legalize murder.
-toa,
has a list
Quote from: the other anonymous on March 02, 2008, 06:23:04 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, so ignore if repost:
I think we should legalize murder.
-toa,
has a list
we tried this, when everyone got their lists together there was no one left who was not to be murdered.
Quote from: Faust on March 02, 2008, 06:28:18 PM
Quote from: the other anonymous on March 02, 2008, 06:23:04 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, so ignore if repost:
I think we should legalize murder.
-toa,
has a list
we tried this, when everyone got their lists together there was no one left who was not to be murdered.
Sounds about right to me. So, why didn't we?
Quote from: the other anonymous on March 02, 2008, 06:43:02 PMSounds about right to me. So, why didn't we?
Sounded way too cultish.
Instead, the concept has been repackaged as a board game and sent to the CoS.
@FAUST: I fixed your image for you...
[attachment deleted by admin]
FingFeng: Big kudos. Nicely done.
~~ Jack of Turnips
Never in my life as an internet user have I felt a first post was more obligatory than this one.
Quote from: abortionpunch on March 03, 2008, 06:46:54 AM
Never in my life as an internet user have I felt a first post was more obligatory than this one.
:mittens:
Ohhhhhhhh. I forgot we don't live in free countries anymore.
Let's not argue any more. Accept the fact that pro-lifers (who've bombed a couple of abortion centers that were also adoption centers) will always argue with pro-choicers (who've bombed exactly 0 churches).
Or, make like me and not give a shit about either way.
I love it when alts come out to play.
:popcorn:
:lulz:
Quote from: K-Scar on March 10, 2008, 05:15:31 PM
Let's not argue any more. Accept the fact that pro-lifers (who've bombed a couple of abortion centers that were also adoption centers) will always argue with pro-choicers (who've bombed exactly 0 churches).
speak for yourself.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on March 10, 2008, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: K-Scar on March 10, 2008, 05:15:31 PM
Let's not argue any more. Accept the fact that pro-lifers (who've bombed a couple of abortion centers that were also adoption centers) will always argue with pro-choicers (who've bombed exactly 0 churches).
speak for yourself.
I was, but I still don't know of any times when a churched was bombed because Pro-choicers decided it was a good idea to blow it up. And I'm speaking in cases that the reason was motivated by the Pro-life, Pro-choice argument.
Besides, I'm not up to current events. The last time I heard a church was bombed, it was by a KKK member because there were...well, you know how it goes.
I'm pretty sure that if Pro-choicers started bombing churches en masse, that silly argument would be put to a stop right quick.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on March 11, 2008, 11:57:16 PM
I'm pretty sure that if Pro-choicers started bombing churches en masse, that silly argument would be put to a stop right quick.
Of course it would be. Even if it was once, it would stop the argument. But, that's not the point.
The point is, I like arguing. The fact that it was only a few fanatics that blew shit up should have been the counterpoint. The few don't represent the many, see?
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on March 11, 2008, 11:57:16 PM
I'm pretty sure that if Pro-choicers started bombing churches en masse, that silly argument would be put to a stop right quick.
:lulz:
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on March 11, 2008, 11:57:16 PM
I'm pretty sure that if Pro-choicers started bombing churches en masse, that silly argument would be put to a stop right quick.
The Jacobins and Sans-culottes would've done it.
Which is pretty much good enough for me.
Vive la revolution!