I know I live in a prison.
That's why I have hope.
When I'm sitting around my cell, knowing full well what it is, despite the heavy curtain and the new carpet, I have to have some little place to put the POWER of my POSITIVE THOUGHTS about my future. Otherwise it would be scattered around the cell, taking up valuable space. So I build a small shrine out of tiny bits and pieces of broken things, and I sit next to it every now and again, putting up an offering of optimism and good intention.
And what a total fucking waste of time that is. Necessary, unavoidable in the human body, but nearly pointless. Hope functions the same way CPR keeps the brain alive for harvesting, most of the time. It has it's uses, is what I'm saying.
But persistence does what hope cannot: ACT. Sure, I may persist in the hope of breaking out of my cell, or merely in the hope that I can get some color in here. But I can't act if I'm sitting by that god damned shrine all god damned day long. I have to get my ass up and MOVE. And hope alone will not even compel me to do this. Persistence can so often be done for its own sake.
I know I'm in a prison, and I'm fairly certain I can't get past these wall. But if I continue to look for ways past it I will gain other, more valuable abilities.
Or I could just keep staring at this shrine.
OR KILL ME
*TL;DR: HOPE IS DILDOES
Hope kills... despair is only tiresome.
I couldn't agree more, Alty. The Ancient Greeks believed that hope was an evil (hence why it was in Pandora's box). A man could spend his entire life in a bad situation because hope makes him believe he'll one day get out of it. But without hope the same man wouldn't think he'd one day get out of the situation and therefore would pragmatically work to get out of it. I like that.
I agree wholeheartedly, Alty!
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 01, 2012, 09:12:18 PM
Hope kills... despair is only tiresome.
I totally misread that as "Hope kills... despair is only threesome".
Quote from: The Waffler on December 02, 2012, 12:17:38 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, Alty!
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 01, 2012, 09:12:18 PM
Hope kills... despair is only tiresome.
I totally misread that as "Hope kills... despair is only threesome".
THREESOME OF DESPAIR
I think I might write a short erotica novel about that. :lol:
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 01, 2012, 10:37:32 PM
I couldn't agree more, Alty. The Ancient Greeks believed that hope was an evil (hence why it was in Pandora's box). A man could spend his entire life in a bad situation because hope makes him believe he'll one day get out of it. But without hope the same man wouldn't think he'd one day get out of the situation and therefore would pragmatically work to get out of it. I like that.
I disagree. Despair breeds and encourages resignation and inaction. If you think you can't change anything then why the fuck should you bother.
I believe there is a place for Hope* as opposed to Hope.
Hope* isn't about envisioning pie-in-the sky goals. If you set unrealistic goals, and you fall far short, then you are just setting up an environment ripe for Despair.
Hope* is about short term, medium term, and long term goals. It is strategic planning. It's about achievable baby steps.
There really isn't any motivation for pragmatism in Despair. But, Hope* mandates pragmatism and constant re-evaluation.
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 01, 2012, 10:37:32 PM
The Ancient Greeks believed that hope was an evil (hence why it was in Pandora's box). A man could spend his entire life in a bad situation because hope makes him believe he'll one day get out of it. But without hope the same man wouldn't think he'd one day get out of the situation and therefore would pragmatically work to get out of it. I like that.
But the thing is, according to Hesiod's Works and Days, for some unexplained reason Hope didn't actually come out of Pandora's jar when it was opened: it was in fact the only thing that stayed in there. This suggests that while the ancient Greeks may have considered hope an evil, it had a rather special status. Also, the myth of Pandora seems nothing but a patriarchal sanitation meme, propaganda against clever and wilful women... how is it relevant?
From this:
Quote from: Alty on December 01, 2012, 07:29:48 PM
... I sit next to it every now and again...
to this:
Quote from: Alty on December 01, 2012, 07:29:48 PM
But I can't act if I'm sitting by that god damned shrine all god damned day long."
Quite a slide, don't you think, Alty? every now and again does not equal all god-damned day long.
Like "moderation in all things"?
Hope has its uses if its realistic,
positive (which, incidentally, doesn't mean happy or cheerful but "to do with what is" - as opposed to wishful thinking. So does persistence. Together, they can accomplish great things. And in fact they often go together. This is because realistic confidence in one's ability and inclination to persist in difficult situations actually engenders hope.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 02, 2012, 06:31:51 PM
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 01, 2012, 10:37:32 PM
I couldn't agree more, Alty. The Ancient Greeks believed that hope was an evil (hence why it was in Pandora's box). A man could spend his entire life in a bad situation because hope makes him believe he'll one day get out of it. But without hope the same man wouldn't think he'd one day get out of the situation and therefore would pragmatically work to get out of it. I like that.
I disagree. Despair breeds and encourages resignation and inaction. If you think you can't change anything then why the fuck should you bother.
I believe there is a place for Hope* as opposed to Hope.
Hope* isn't about envisioning pie-in-the sky goals. If you set unrealistic goals, and you fall far short, then you are just setting up an environment ripe for Despair.
Hope* is about short term, medium term, and long term goals. It is strategic planning. It's about achievable baby steps.
There really isn't any motivation for pragmatism in Despair. But, Hope* mandates pragmatism and constant re-evaluation.
So yessss. If I knew how to make them clapping hands or could be bothered to find out I would put a few here.
Quote from: holist on December 02, 2012, 07:11:05 PM
From this:
Quote from: Alty on December 01, 2012, 07:29:48 PM
... I sit next to it every now and again...
to this:
Quote from: Alty on December 01, 2012, 07:29:48 PM
But I can't act if I'm sitting by that god damned shrine all god damned day long."
Quite a slide, don't you think, Alty? every now and again does not equal all god-damned day long.
Like "moderation in all things"?
Hope has its uses if its realistic, positive (which, incidentally, doesn't mean happy or cheerful but "to do with what is" - as opposed to wishful thinking. So does persistence. Together, they can accomplish great things. And in fact they often go together. This is because realistic confidence in one's ability and inclination to persist in difficult situations actually engenders hope.
LOOK KIDS, THIS BEAR THINKS IT'S
PEOPLE. THAT IS ADORABLE.
Anyway, I would like to make it clear that I in now way meant to address the issue of despair. If hope is a little shrine made of broken bits and pieces within your cell, I'd say despair is very similar but on the pessimistic side of things.
But I am NOT talking about giving up. I'm saying that persistence can be maintained for its own sake, for the enjoyment of the act itself, without any need for belief-based forced emotional states.
Quote from: Alty on December 02, 2012, 07:16:39 PM
LOOK KIDS, THIS BEAR THINKS IT'S PEOPLE. THAT IS ADORABLE.
Worse still, it thinks it's people what can talk to a squid!
Quote from: Alty on December 02, 2012, 07:16:39 PM
Anyway, I would like to make it clear that I in now way meant to address the issue of despair. If hope is a little shrine made of broken bits and pieces within your cell, I'd say despair is very similar but on the pessimistic side of things.
But I am NOT talking about giving up. I'm saying that persistence can be maintained for its own sake, for the enjoyment of the act itself, without any need for belief-based forced emotional states.
Sliding still. You were slagging hope in general. In actual fact, unrealistic hope is a killer, realistic hope is often a great comforter/fortifier. Is all.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 02, 2012, 06:31:51 PMDespair breeds and encourages resignation and inaction.
...
There really isn't any motivation for pragmatism in Despair.
I think I worded my previous post badly so I apologize for any misunderstandings.
Despair
does breed and encourage resignation and inaction. Let's say your house is burning down around you. You think there's no way you're going to get out of the house. So what do you do? You accept your fate and die.
But to me hope means desiring something to happen without doing anything to make it happen. You hope you get a promotion at work, but you don't do anything to get said promotion. You hope your hot neighbor falls in love with you, but you don't make any effort to make that happen.
So your house is burning down around you. So you sit around, hope someone saves you or you survive, and eventually die. (Note that the actions/inactions and end results of both despair and hope are the same thing. You don't do anything to help yourself and die as a result. It's only the mindset that has changed.)
To me, it's not an either/or though. Let's say you work in a cubicle. You're a data clerk or something. You want to get that promotion or raise. So you work your ass off, brown nose your boss, and whatever else to try to get that promotion or raise. You don't have to believe it's possible to get that promotion or raise. You don't have to hope you get it. All you have to do is try to get it.
Going back to the fire example. . . If you wake up to your home burning down you don't have to hope you survive or hope someone saves you. You can just start trying to save yourself. If you do, you might live. Or you might die. But you know what? I promise your odds of surviving are better if you do something than if you just sit there and let the fire consume you.
Tl;dr: To me, both despair
and hope breeds and encourages resignation and inaction. The only difference between the two is in the positive/negative mindset.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 02, 2012, 06:31:51 PMIf you think you can't change anything then why the fuck should you bother.
I think most people have that mindset. I personally don't. And I think such a mindset is cowardly and wrong. But that's another subject for another day.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 02, 2012, 06:31:51 PM
I believe there is a place for Hope* as opposed to Hope.
Hope* isn't about envisioning pie-in-the sky goals. If you set unrealistic goals, and you fall far short, then you are just setting up an environment ripe for Despair.
Hope* is about short term, medium term, and long term goals. It is strategic planning. It's about achievable baby steps.
There really isn't any motivation for pragmatism in Despair. But, Hope* mandates pragmatism and constant re-evaluation.
I agree with this. I think the difference between us is that, for me, hope is "hope without action." But I don't have a problem with "hope reinforced with action." But to me "hope reinforced with action" is a goal, maybe an optimistic goal.
If you only stare at your hot neighbor every day as she goes to and from work, dreaming about her busting down your front door and ravaging you out of nowhere is a hope. But if you wine and dine her, buy her flowers, or whatever, expecting her to ravage you in return is a goal (albeit an optimistic goal) because you're working towards it.
With all that said, I'm not trying to say my view of hope is THE view of hope. It's just
my view of hope and is why I agreed with the OP.
It kind of relates to The Little Engine That Could; "I think I can" is hope, "I know I can" is determination.
I have had many nasty run-ins with hope, and I try to banish it from my vocabulary in terms of applying it to my own life. To me, "hope" means the same as "probably not". Do I hope something will happen, or am I motivated to work toward it? Do I hope to get my PhD at OHSU, or am I planning to get my PhD at OHSU?
To me, hope feels disempowering. It feels like abdicating responsibility and surrendering to outside forces.
Quote from: holist on December 02, 2012, 07:06:18 PM
But the thing is, according to Hesiod's Works and Days, for some unexplained reason Hope didn't actually come out of Pandora's jar when it was opened: it was in fact the only thing that stayed in there. This suggests that while the ancient Greeks may have considered hope an evil, it had a rather special status. Also, the myth of Pandora seems nothing but a patriarchal sanitation meme, propaganda against clever and wilful women... how is it relevant?
I mentioned the Pandora myth as an example of how the ancient Greeks (at least during Hesiod's time) viewed hope. The fact that the story is ultimately a tale of how women are the cause of all the problems in the world doesn't matter.
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 03, 2012, 04:49:52 AM
I have had many nasty run-ins with hope, and I try to banish it from my vocabulary in terms of applying it to my own life. To me, "hope" means the same as "probably not". Do I hope something will happen, or am I motivated to work toward it? Do I hope to get my PhD at OHSU, or am I planning to get my PhD at OHSU?
To me, hope feels disempowering. It feels like abdicating responsibility and surrendering to outside forces.
I really like that. I had never thought of it as disempowering before. I think you're absolutely right.
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 03, 2012, 04:49:52 AM
I have had many nasty run-ins with hope, and I try to banish it from my vocabulary in terms of applying it to my own life. To me, "hope" means the same as "probably not". Do I hope something will happen, or am I motivated to work toward it? Do I hope to get my PhD at OHSU, or am I planning to get my PhD at OHSU?
To me, hope feels disempowering. It feels like abdicating responsibility and surrendering to outside forces.
I like that.
I try to use it as "it would be nice if this happened, but have a backup plan if it doesn't."
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 03, 2012, 04:37:50 AM
But to me hope means desiring something to happen without doing anything to make it happen.
That might be the root of the misunderstanding here, because I think that's quite far from the concensus understanding of hope.
"Wishful thinking" is what I would say if I wanted to mean what you are describing.
Hope is wanting positive things, particularly those things not presently in your direct control.
As an emotion, it has nothing to do with being proactive or not.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 03:25:41 PM
Hope is wanting positive things, particularly those things not presently in your direct control.
As an emotion, it has nothing to do with being proactive or not.
I think it is quite possible to hope for negative things, too... of course, negative things
for someone else.
And yes, being proactive or otherwise just doesn't come into it.
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 03:29:17 PM
I think it is quite possible to hope for negative things, too... of course, negative things for someone else.
In my world view, that is a positive thing.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 03:30:57 PM
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 03:29:17 PM
I think it is quite possible to hope for negative things, too... of course, negative things for someone else.
In my world view, that is a positive thing.
You don't say! :lulz:
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 03:30:57 PM
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 03:29:17 PM
I think it is quite possible to hope for negative things, too... of course, negative things for someone else.
In my world view, that is a positive thing.
You don't say! :lulz:
I could deny it, but why? I'm a hater. I'm comfortable with that. I view it as a virtue...I am like Jesus, only hateful and bitter. The funny part is that I have very little to be bitter ABOUT, it's just the way I was made.
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 03:23:31 PM
That might be the root of the misunderstanding here, because I think that's quite far from the concensus understanding of hope.
Indeed. After all, I didn't define the word hope in my first post. I had hoped you guys would just know what I meant. But that wasn't the case. So in my next post I defined what I meant by the word hope. I no longer hoped you guys would know what I meant. I knew defining the word would clear up any misunderstandings. Can you imagine how much better this thread would've been if I had simply defined the word in the first place? :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 04:45:17 PM
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 03:30:57 PM
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 03:29:17 PM
I think it is quite possible to hope for negative things, too... of course, negative things for someone else.
In my world view, that is a positive thing.
You don't say! :lulz:
I could deny it, but why? I'm a hater. I'm comfortable with that. I view it as a virtue...I am like Jesus, only hateful and bitter. The funny part is that I have very little to be bitter ABOUT, it's just the way I was made.
It actually makes perfect sense. You're hating for
everyone. Ever wonder how some people can go through incredible adversity and come out of it with a smile on their face and love in their hearts? It's because Roger hates for them.
Roger hates for the whole world! He hates for you and me!
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 03, 2012, 11:53:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 04:45:17 PM
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 03:30:57 PM
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 03:29:17 PM
I think it is quite possible to hope for negative things, too... of course, negative things for someone else.
In my world view, that is a positive thing.
You don't say! :lulz:
I could deny it, but why? I'm a hater. I'm comfortable with that. I view it as a virtue...I am like Jesus, only hateful and bitter. The funny part is that I have very little to be bitter ABOUT, it's just the way I was made.
It actually makes perfect sense. You're hating for everyone. Ever wonder how some people can go through incredible adversity and come out of it with a smile on their face and love in their hearts? It's because Roger hates for them.
Roger hates for the whole world! He hates for you and me!
Kind of like Jesus died for your sins?
So if Christians are covered with whe blood of Jesus, what is the world covered with?
Something to ponder. :lol:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 03:25:41 PM
Hope is wanting positive things, particularly those things not presently in your direct control.
That's what I love about hope. How people see hope, and the very definition of the word itself, has changed so much throughout the ages and cultures that it could be defined many different ways
and all the definitions would still be right. Even if you look at a single time period and a single culture it's seen in completely different ways (this thread being an example).
I define hope as "wanting positive things without working for them, particularly those things not presently in your direct control." Or, like Holist pointed out, "wishful thinking." (And I apologize for stealing the wording of your definition, Roger, but I think you worded it wonderfully.)
You say," No, no. You're wrong. Hope is wanting positive things, particularly those things not presently in your direct control. It has nothing to do with action."
Someone else says," No,
you're wrong. Hope is having a goal in mind, a plan to reach said goal, and the belief that you
can reach the goal."
And then someone else says," No, you're
all wrong. Hope just means to be confident that something good is going to happen in the future."
The truth is that we're
all right. Because no matter how certain we are in our definitions the truth is that the meaning of hope has a certain amount of subjectivity to it. There's just enough wiggle room to draw your own conclusions.
But really none of that matters because all that matters is how
Alty defines hope since the discussion is supposed to be about his OP.
With all that said, I still contend that hope is absolutely evil. Want proof? Alty wrote a fucking fantastic OP that brought up a really interesting point. But we're completely ignoring that. Instead we are discussing our meanings of a concept (a semi-subjective one at that) that doesn't have much of an effect on the idea behind the OP. Why? Because of
holist hope. Mother effing
holist hope. How is
he that
not evil? :lol:
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on December 04, 2012, 12:30:46 AM
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 03, 2012, 11:53:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 04:45:17 PM
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 03:30:57 PM
Quote from: holist on December 03, 2012, 03:29:17 PM
I think it is quite possible to hope for negative things, too... of course, negative things for someone else.
In my world view, that is a positive thing.
You don't say! :lulz:
I could deny it, but why? I'm a hater. I'm comfortable with that. I view it as a virtue...I am like Jesus, only hateful and bitter. The funny part is that I have very little to be bitter ABOUT, it's just the way I was made.
It actually makes perfect sense. You're hating for everyone. Ever wonder how some people can go through incredible adversity and come out of it with a smile on their face and love in their hearts? It's because Roger hates for them.
Roger hates for the whole world! He hates for you and me!
Kind of like Jesus died for your sins?
So if Christians are covered with whe blood of Jesus, what is the world covered with?
Something to ponder. :lol:
He hates the whole world, in his head
He hates the whole world, in his head
He hates the whole world, in his head
He hates the whole world in his head!
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 04, 2012, 01:18:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2012, 03:25:41 PM
Hope is wanting positive things, particularly those things not presently in your direct control.
That's what I love about hope. How people see hope, and the very definition of the word itself, has changed so much throughout the ages and cultures that it could be defined many different ways and all the definitions would still be right. Even if you look at a single time period and a single culture it's seen in completely different ways (this thread being an example).
I define hope as "wanting positive things without working for them, particularly those things not presently in your direct control." Or, like Holist pointed out, "wishful thinking." (And I apologize for stealing the wording of your definition, Roger, but I think you worded it wonderfully.)
You say," No, no. You're wrong. Hope is wanting positive things, particularly those things not presently in your direct control. It has nothing to do with action."
Someone else says," No, you're wrong. Hope is having a goal in mind, a plan to reach said goal, and the belief that you can reach the goal."
And then someone else says," No, you're all wrong. Hope just means to be confident that something good is going to happen in the future."
The truth is that we're all right. Because no matter how certain we are in our definitions the truth is that the meaning of hope has a certain amount of subjectivity to it. There's just enough wiggle room to draw your own conclusions.
But really none of that matters because all that matters is how Alty defines hope since the discussion is supposed to be about his OP.
With all that said, I still contend that hope is absolutely evil. Want proof? Alty wrote a fucking fantastic OP that brought up a really interesting point. But we're completely ignoring that. Instead we are discussing our meanings of a concept (a semi-subjective one at that) that doesn't have much of an effect on the idea behind the OP. Why? Because of holist hope. Mother effing holist hope. How is he that not evil? :lol:
You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 04, 2012, 01:18:36 AM
Alty wrote a fucking fantastic OP that brought up a really interesting point.
Oh really? And what was it? I've read it the fifth time, and it still seems he was simply whinging. But perhaps I am missing something: could you reformulate the "really interesting point" of the OP, please?
Quote from: holist on December 04, 2012, 02:27:48 AM
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 04, 2012, 01:18:36 AM
Alty wrote a fucking fantastic OP that brought up a really interesting point.
Oh really? And what was it? I've read it the fifth time, and it still seems he was simply whinging. But perhaps I am missing something: could you reformulate the "really interesting point" of the OP, please?
Why are you such a jerk all the time?
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 03, 2012, 05:40:16 AM
Quote from: holist on December 02, 2012, 07:06:18 PM
But the thing is, according to Hesiod's Works and Days, for some unexplained reason Hope didn't actually come out of Pandora's jar when it was opened: it was in fact the only thing that stayed in there. This suggests that while the ancient Greeks may have considered hope an evil, it had a rather special status. Also, the myth of Pandora seems nothing but a patriarchal sanitation meme, propaganda against clever and wilful women... how is it relevant?
I mentioned the Pandora myth as an example of how the ancient Greeks (at least during Hesiod's time) viewed hope. The fact that the story is ultimately a tale of how women are the cause of all the problems in the world doesn't matter.
Here's the thing, though. In Hesiod, Pandora is not "LOL First Woman to exist ruined everything for everyone forever"(unlike some silly religions). Actually, Hesiod pegs Pandora as the first of a certain "kind" or as much as I hate the word "race" of women, not women as a whole. This kind of woman is, evidently, spiteful and deceptive, as opposed to "clever and willful". Strong, intelligent, even "willful" women, were often viewed positively by the Greeks, but of course, there are many conflicting sources, so it is rather difficult to say one way or another in broad strokes.
Now, on to the OP.
Alty, I completely agree with you. Hope is a... a rather unproductive frame of mind. At least insofar as "I hope that one day...". While the connotations of the word are hotly debated, I don't necessarily think that "I hope to get a Ph. D, and I'm going to do my damnedest to pull it off" is a negative mindset. when something is not fully in one's power, or when doing your absolute best still is not a guarantee of success, "hope" is not a dirty word. "Here's hoping that I do better this year, while maintaining the same practices as the last," "Here's hoping that this illness will go away on its own, and not do permanent damage, because I really, really don't want to go to the doctor," "here's hoping I can stop binge eating and lose some weight," etc. not so much, ya dig?
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 04, 2012, 01:50:09 AM
You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!
God wasn't always a great guy. He used to be a bit of an asshole, to be honest. His only job was to protect a single desert tribe. And boy did He love it. Butchering his tribe's enemies. Killing firstborn sons. Destroying entire towns with pillars of fire. Turning people into salt. Demanding people sacrifice their children for shits and giggles. Hell, He even flooded the earth once, almost wiping out the entire world's population, just to make a point. To say He was filled with hate is a bit of an understatement.
Then something happened. The Romans marched on ancient Judea. The people tried to defend themselves, but their weak attempts were nothing compared to the might of the Empire. The tribe had thought God was going to protect them. They thought He was going to destroy their enemy like He loved so much to do. But He was nowhere to be seen. He didn't even show up to point and laugh like He sometimes did. God had flown the coop.
A few decades later God returned literally in the flesh. But He had changed. He was no longer filled with hate. He was now filled with love. He no longer liked to smash his enemies. He now wanted to give them a hug. He used to believe you couldn't punish someone quickly enough. He now believed everyone deserved mercy. God had become a lovey-dovey hippie.
What had happened?
There are whispers that it has to do with how Jesus came into being. You see, the incarnation of God into this world is a pretty complicated process as one might expect. Just like you can't win the Daytona 500 the very first time you drive a car, you can't perfectly merge a divine entity with a physical body on the very first try. It takes practice, is what I'm saying.
But God is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore able to do it on the first try, you might be asking yourself. Look at it this way. When Satan told God that the only reason he thought Job was pious was because life was going so well for him, what did God say? He didn't agree, but He didn't know for sure so He allowed Satan to screw him in the ass a few times over to test the theory. Now if God didn't know what was in the heart of a simple-minded country bumpkin, how the hell would He know how to incarnate Himself into the physical world on the first try?
What I'm trying to say is God needed to practice before the big show. And how would He practice such a thing? He'd try to incarnate Himself into the world, of course. A test run. So the Good Lord found a virgin and knocked her up. But something went wrong. While His essence did merge with the flesh of the child, it wasn't a complete merging. The physical body of the child absorbed His Divine Anger. Then it stopped. The rest of His essence remained outside the bounds of the physical world.
Now devoid of His anger, God took pity on the virgin carrying His child. He transformed her into a member of a species which He had previously blessed with His divine power, the noble Yeti, and placed her within the untamed wilderness of a land that would one day become known as Canada.
God created a new plan, fixing the mistakes He had made with the original plan. This plan had a new goal in mind. You see, God originally wanted to incarnate Himself into the world so that He could absorb the hate within man's hearts. Doing such a thing would make Him even more hateful and therefore stronger. With more power He could become the head deity of other tribes which would give Him even more power. More power meant He could get fuck with more tribes. And thus the cycle would've gone on indefinitely. God wanted to start His own franchise. A divine McDonald's that fucked you over instead of giving you food. But with His Divine Anger gone He decided that He wanted to remove the sins of man instead, allowing them to be together with Him in one giant circle jerk for all of eternity.
Of course, even
that plan was flawed. While God was coming up with it His tribe was being mowed down by Greeks and then Romans. So He was a bit surprised by how they welcomed Him when He finally did come into the physical world. It turns out they were a bit bitter. And the Romans were more than willing to solve that problem for them.
As for God's firstborn son? Nobody knows what happened to him. Not even God Himself. Nobody knows whether he's alive or dead. Or even if he survived long enough to be born into the world in the first place. But if he is alive. . . Then that means there's a Holy Man filled with Divine Anger somewhere out there. . . And only the man himself could know what he's doing. Is he spewing rage on a busy street corner? Is he the iron-fisted dictator of a third world country? Or maybe he's a fire-and-brimstone preacher leading an apocalyptic cult? Perhaps he's innately attracted to the environment from which his Father's tribe originated and therefore dwells deep within some desert where no man dare look? We may never know.
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 04, 2012, 06:01:09 AM
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 04, 2012, 01:50:09 AM
You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!
God wasn't always a great guy. He used to be a bit of an asshole, to be honest. His only job was to protect a single desert tribe. And boy did He love it. Butchering his tribe's enemies. Killing firstborn sons. Destroying entire towns with pillars of fire. Turning people into salt. Demanding people sacrifice their children for shits and giggles. Hell, He even flooded the earth once, almost wiping out the entire world's population, just to make a point. To say He was filled with hate is a bit of an understatement.
Then something happened. The Romans marched on ancient Judea. The people tried to defend themselves, but their weak attempts were nothing compared to the might of the Empire. The tribe had thought God was going to protect them. They thought He was going to destroy their enemy like He loved so much to do. But He was nowhere to be seen. He didn't even show up to point and laugh like He sometimes did. God had flown the coop.
A few decades later God returned literally in the flesh. But He had changed. He was no longer filled with hate. He was now filled with love. He no longer liked to smash his enemies. He now wanted to give them a hug. He used to believe you couldn't punish someone quickly enough. He now believed everyone deserved mercy. God had become a lovey-dovey hippie.
What had happened?
There are whispers that it has to do with how Jesus came into being. You see, the incarnation of God into this world is a pretty complicated process as one might expect. Just like you can't win the Daytona 500 the very first time you drive a car, you can't perfectly merge a divine entity with a physical body on the very first try. It takes practice, is what I'm saying.
But God is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore able to do it on the first try, you might be asking yourself. Look at it this way. When Satan told God that the only reason he thought Job was pious was because life was going so well for him, what did God say? He didn't agree, but He didn't know for sure so He allowed Satan to screw him in the ass a few times over to test the theory. Now if God didn't know what was in the heart of a simple-minded country bumpkin, how the hell would He know how to incarnate Himself into the physical world on the first try?
What I'm trying to say is God needed to practice before the big show. And how would He practice such a thing? He'd try to incarnate Himself into the world, of course. A test run. So the Good Lord found a virgin and knocked her up. But something went wrong. While His essence did merge with the flesh of the child, it wasn't a complete merging. The physical body of the child absorbed His Divine Anger. Then it stopped. The rest of His essence remained outside the bounds of the physical world.
Now devoid of His anger, God took pity on the virgin carrying His child. He transformed her into a member of a species which He had previously blessed with His divine power, the noble Yeti, and placed her within the untamed wilderness of a land that would one day become known as Canada.
God created a new plan, fixing the mistakes He had made with the original plan. This plan had a new goal in mind. You see, God originally wanted to incarnate Himself into the world so that He could absorb the hate within man's hearts. Doing such a thing would make Him even more hateful and therefore stronger. With more power He could become the head deity of other tribes which would give Him even more power. More power meant He could get fuck with more tribes. And thus the cycle would've gone on indefinitely. God wanted to start His own franchise. A divine McDonald's that fucked you over instead of giving you food. But with His Divine Anger gone He decided that He wanted to remove the sins of man instead, allowing them to be together with Him in one giant circle jerk for all of eternity.
Of course, even that plan was flawed. While God was coming up with it His tribe was being mowed down by Greeks and then Romans. So He was a bit surprised by how they welcomed Him when He finally did come into the physical world. It turns out they were a bit bitter. And the Romans were more than willing to solve that problem for them.
As for God's firstborn son? Nobody knows what happened to him. Not even God Himself. Nobody knows whether he's alive or dead. Or even if he survived long enough to be born into the world in the first place. But if he is alive. . . Then that means there's a Holy Man filled with Divine Anger somewhere out there. . . And only the man himself could know what he's doing. Is he spewing rage on a busy street corner? Is he the iron-fisted dictator of a third world country? Or maybe he's a fire-and-brimstone preacher leading an apocalyptic cult? Perhaps he's innately attracted to the environment from which his Father's tribe originated and therefore dwells deep within some desert where no man dare look? We may never know.
:potd:
Quote from: Running From Ghosts on December 04, 2012, 06:01:09 AM
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 04, 2012, 01:50:09 AM
You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!
God wasn't always a great guy. He used to be a bit of an asshole, to be honest. His only job was to protect a single desert tribe. And boy did He love it. Butchering his tribe's enemies. Killing firstborn sons. Destroying entire towns with pillars of fire. Turning people into salt. Demanding people sacrifice their children for shits and giggles. Hell, He even flooded the earth once, almost wiping out the entire world's population, just to make a point. To say He was filled with hate is a bit of an understatement.
Then something happened. The Romans marched on ancient Judea. The people tried to defend themselves, but their weak attempts were nothing compared to the might of the Empire. The tribe had thought God was going to protect them. They thought He was going to destroy their enemy like He loved so much to do. But He was nowhere to be seen. He didn't even show up to point and laugh like He sometimes did. God had flown the coop.
A few decades later God returned literally in the flesh. But He had changed. He was no longer filled with hate. He was now filled with love. He no longer liked to smash his enemies. He now wanted to give them a hug. He used to believe you couldn't punish someone quickly enough. He now believed everyone deserved mercy. God had become a lovey-dovey hippie.
What had happened?
There are whispers that it has to do with how Jesus came into being. You see, the incarnation of God into this world is a pretty complicated process as one might expect. Just like you can't win the Daytona 500 the very first time you drive a car, you can't perfectly merge a divine entity with a physical body on the very first try. It takes practice, is what I'm saying.
But God is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore able to do it on the first try, you might be asking yourself. Look at it this way. When Satan told God that the only reason he thought Job was pious was because life was going so well for him, what did God say? He didn't agree, but He didn't know for sure so He allowed Satan to screw him in the ass a few times over to test the theory. Now if God didn't know what was in the heart of a simple-minded country bumpkin, how the hell would He know how to incarnate Himself into the physical world on the first try?
What I'm trying to say is God needed to practice before the big show. And how would He practice such a thing? He'd try to incarnate Himself into the world, of course. A test run. So the Good Lord found a virgin and knocked her up. But something went wrong. While His essence did merge with the flesh of the child, it wasn't a complete merging. The physical body of the child absorbed His Divine Anger. Then it stopped. The rest of His essence remained outside the bounds of the physical world.
Now devoid of His anger, God took pity on the virgin carrying His child. He transformed her into a member of a species which He had previously blessed with His divine power, the noble Yeti, and placed her within the untamed wilderness of a land that would one day become known as Canada.
God created a new plan, fixing the mistakes He had made with the original plan. This plan had a new goal in mind. You see, God originally wanted to incarnate Himself into the world so that He could absorb the hate within man's hearts. Doing such a thing would make Him even more hateful and therefore stronger. With more power He could become the head deity of other tribes which would give Him even more power. More power meant He could get fuck with more tribes. And thus the cycle would've gone on indefinitely. God wanted to start His own franchise. A divine McDonald's that fucked you over instead of giving you food. But with His Divine Anger gone He decided that He wanted to remove the sins of man instead, allowing them to be together with Him in one giant circle jerk for all of eternity.
Of course, even that plan was flawed. While God was coming up with it His tribe was being mowed down by Greeks and then Romans. So He was a bit surprised by how they welcomed Him when He finally did come into the physical world. It turns out they were a bit bitter. And the Romans were more than willing to solve that problem for them.
As for God's firstborn son? Nobody knows what happened to him. Not even God Himself. Nobody knows whether he's alive or dead. Or even if he survived long enough to be born into the world in the first place. But if he is alive. . . Then that means there's a Holy Man filled with Divine Anger somewhere out there. . . And only the man himself could know what he's doing. Is he spewing rage on a busy street corner? Is he the iron-fisted dictator of a third world country? Or maybe he's a fire-and-brimstone preacher leading an apocalyptic cult? Perhaps he's innately attracted to the environment from which his Father's tribe originated and therefore dwells deep within some desert where no man dare look? We may never know.
WOW. :lulz:
Thread split by request.
Thanks.
Before I wrote the OP, I knew it would come down to definitions, so I checked wikipedia and found:
QuoteHope is the emotional state which promotes the belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life. Despair is the opposite of hope.
This just confirmed that, yes, that's what I'm talking about. Except, I suppose I'm arguing that it is more often than not a FORCED emotional state and that when it is overtly forced it is nothing but bad.
This thread is actually a great example.
I don't continue to post threads on PD.com because I hope it will garner some kudos or lead to an intriguing conversation. It often does, but I certainly won't count on it. If the thread gets derailed, if a thousand threads get derailed, it will not stop me from posting because I do so for its own sake.
Maybe I'm thinking of a Buddhist sense of non-attachment. I can enjoy posting because I have no hope it will turn into anything.
Quote from: holιst on December 04, 2012, 06:01:09 AM
Quote from: FROTISTED FUDGE CAK on December 04, 2012, 01:50:09 AM
You make a really profound and poignant point, but I'm wondering if you've heard the Good News about Roger? He hates for you and me, so that we can have eternal less-hatefulness!
God wasn't always a great guy. He used to be a bit of an asshole, to be honest. His only job was to protect a single desert tribe. And boy did He love it. Butchering his tribe's enemies. Killing firstborn sons. Destroying entire towns with pillars of fire. Turning people into salt. Demanding people sacrifice their children for shits and giggles. Hell, He even flooded the earth once, almost wiping out the entire world's population, just to make a point. To say He was filled with hate is a bit of an understatement.
Then something happened. The Romans marched on ancient Judea. The people tried to defend themselves, but their weak attempts were nothing compared to the might of the Empire. The tribe had thought God was going to protect them. They thought He was going to destroy their enemy like He loved so much to do. But He was nowhere to be seen. He didn't even show up to point and laugh like He sometimes did. God had flown the coop.
A few decades later God returned literally in the flesh. But He had changed. He was no longer filled with hate. He was now filled with love. He no longer liked to smash his enemies. He now wanted to give them a hug. He used to believe you couldn't punish someone quickly enough. He now believed everyone deserved mercy. God had become a lovey-dovey hippie.
What had happened?
There are whispers that it has to do with how Jesus came into being. You see, the incarnation of God into this world is a pretty complicated process as one might expect. Just like you can't win the Daytona 500 the very first time you drive a car, you can't perfectly merge a divine entity with a physical body on the very first try. It takes practice, is what I'm saying.
But God is omniscient and omnipotent and therefore able to do it on the first try, you might be asking yourself. Look at it this way. When Satan told God that the only reason he thought Job was pious was because life was going so well for him, what did God say? He didn't agree, but He didn't know for sure so He allowed Satan to screw him in the ass a few times over to test the theory. Now if God didn't know what was in the heart of a simple-minded country bumpkin, how the hell would He know how to incarnate Himself into the physical world on the first try?
What I'm trying to say is God needed to practice before the big show. And how would He practice such a thing? He'd try to incarnate Himself into the world, of course. A test run. So the Good Lord found a virgin and knocked her up. But something went wrong. While His essence did merge with the flesh of the child, it wasn't a complete merging. The physical body of the child absorbed His Divine Anger. Then it stopped. The rest of His essence remained outside the bounds of the physical world.
Now devoid of His anger, God took pity on the virgin carrying His child. He transformed her into a member of a species which He had previously blessed with His divine power, the noble Yeti, and placed her within the untamed wilderness of a land that would one day become known as Canada.
God created a new plan, fixing the mistakes He had made with the original plan. This plan had a new goal in mind. You see, God originally wanted to incarnate Himself into the world so that He could absorb the hate within man's hearts. Doing such a thing would make Him even more hateful and therefore stronger. With more power He could become the head deity of other tribes which would give Him even more power. More power meant He could get fuck with more tribes. And thus the cycle would've gone on indefinitely. God wanted to start His own franchise. A divine McDonald's that fucked you over instead of giving you food. But with His Divine Anger gone He decided that He wanted to remove the sins of man instead, allowing them to be together with Him in one giant circle jerk for all of eternity.
Of course, even that plan was flawed. While God was coming up with it His tribe was being mowed down by Greeks and then Romans. So He was a bit surprised by how they welcomed Him when He finally did come into the physical world. It turns out they were a bit bitter. And the Romans were more than willing to solve that problem for them.
As for God's firstborn son? Nobody knows what happened to him. Not even God Himself. Nobody knows whether he's alive or dead. Or even if he survived long enough to be born into the world in the first place. But if he is alive. . . Then that means there's a Holy Man filled with Divine Anger somewhere out there. . . And only the man himself could know what he's doing. Is he spewing rage on a busy street corner? Is he the iron-fisted dictator of a third world country? Or maybe he's a fire-and-brimstone preacher leading an apocalyptic cult? Perhaps he's innately attracted to the environment from which his Father's tribe originated and therefore dwells deep within some desert where no man dare look? We may never know.
I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.
I agree, it's completely wow.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 04, 2012, 01:48:41 PM
:potd:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2012, 02:23:15 PM
WOW. :lulz:
Quote from: Alty on December 05, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.
Thank you, guys!
And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty. Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.
Quote from: holιst on December 05, 2012, 11:11:43 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 04, 2012, 01:48:41 PM
:potd:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2012, 02:23:15 PM
WOW. :lulz:
Quote from: Alty on December 05, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.
Thank you, guys!
And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty. Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.
I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. :lulz:
Quote from: hølist on December 06, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
Quote from: holιst on December 05, 2012, 11:11:43 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 04, 2012, 01:48:41 PM
:potd:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2012, 02:23:15 PM
WOW. :lulz:
Quote from: Alty on December 05, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.
Thank you, guys!
And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty. Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.
I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. :lulz:
Thank you too! :)
I don't know why your post would be moved to the holist thread. I can't imagine anyone mistaking you for him. :lulz:
Quote from: holιst on December 06, 2012, 02:41:48 AM
Quote from: hølist on December 06, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
Quote from: holιst on December 05, 2012, 11:11:43 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 04, 2012, 01:48:41 PM
:potd:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2012, 02:23:15 PM
WOW. :lulz:
Quote from: Alty on December 05, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.
Thank you, guys!
And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty. Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.
I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. :lulz:
Thank you too! :)
I don't know why your post would be moved to the holist thread. I can't imagine anyone mistaking you for him. :lulz:
I know, right? It's really weird. :sad:
Quote from: hølist on December 06, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
Quote from: holιst on December 05, 2012, 11:11:43 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 04, 2012, 01:48:41 PM
:potd:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2012, 02:23:15 PM
WOW. :lulz:
Quote from: Alty on December 05, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.
Thank you, guys!
And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty. Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.
I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. :lulz:
Sorry, that's my bad. I was shoveling out the poomp for Alty yesterday, and I became confused at the sheer number of Hungarians. I almost split Alty's posts out, too, and he started the thread.
I CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO BE AT MY BEST WHEN SURROUNDED BY (SUPPOSEDLY) FORMER COMMUNISTS. I SHOVEL THE POOMP. THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. NONE OF THIS RUSSIAN SHIT IS MY JOB.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 06, 2012, 01:50:56 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 06, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
Quote from: holιst on December 05, 2012, 11:11:43 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 04, 2012, 01:48:41 PM
:potd:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2012, 02:23:15 PM
WOW. :lulz:
Quote from: Alty on December 05, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
I just read this whole thing and it is amazing.
Thank you, guys!
And I apologize for putting it right in the middle of your thread, Alty. Nigel and Texas Fairy had inspired me, and I didn't know where else to put it.
I also found it amazing! For some reason my reply got moved to the holist thread though. :lulz:
Sorry, that's my bad. I was shoveling out the poomp for Alty yesterday, and I became confused at the sheer number of Hungarians. I almost split Alty's posts out, too, and he started the thread.
I CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO BE AT MY BEST WHEN SURROUNDED BY (SUPPOSEDLY) FORMER COMMUNISTS. I SHOVEL THE POOMP. THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. NONE OF THIS RUSSIAN SHIT IS MY JOB.
:lulz: IS OK, COMRADE.