1
Apple Talk / I have something important to say
« on: September 14, 2019, 09:29:12 pm »
ass bum poo fart
News:
Several times a month, I will be in a store aisle reaching for something and feel a hand going up the inside of my thigh. When I turn around to find myself alone with a woman, and ask her if she would prefer me to hold still so she can get a better feel for the situation, oftentimes she will act "shocked" claiming nothing had happened, it must be somebody else...
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2
Apple Talk / Cognitive Excercise 1
« on: October 21, 2012, 04:15:43 am »
Write down ten things you like before continuing.
Beside each one, write down anyone who may want you to like them. Advertisers, corporations, religious instiutions, friends, family, etc.
Beside each one, write down anyone who may want you to like them. Advertisers, corporations, religious instiutions, friends, family, etc.
4
Literate Chaotic / Religion and Science
« on: October 13, 2012, 04:12:49 pm »
Thought people may like this.
The following article by Albert Einstein appeared in the New York Times Magazine on November 9, 1930 pp 1-4. It has been reprinted in Ideas and Opinions, Crown Publishers, Inc. 1954, pp 36 - 40. It also appears in Einstein's book The World as I See It, Philosophical Library, New York, 1949, pp. 24 - 28.
Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of deeply felt needs and the assuagement of pain. One has to keep this constantly in mind if one wishes to understand spiritual movements and their development. Feeling and longing are the motive force behind all human endeavor and human creation, in however exalted a guise the latter may present themselves to us. Now what are the feelings and needs that have led men to religious thought and belief in the widest sense of the words? A little consideration will suffice to show us that the most varying emotions preside over the birth of religious thought and experience. With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions - fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death. Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal connections is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates illusory beings more or less analogous to itself on whose wills and actions these fearful happenings depend. Thus one tries to secure the favor of these beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which, according to the tradition handed down from generation to generation, propitiate them or make them well disposed toward a mortal. In this sense I am speaking of a religion of fear. This, though not created, is in an important degree stabilized by the formation of a special priestly caste which sets itself up as a mediator between the people and the beings they fear, and erects a hegemony on this basis. In many cases a leader or ruler or a privileged class whose position rests on other factors combines priestly functions with its secular authority in order to make the latter more secure; or the political rulers and the priestly caste make common cause in their own interests.
The social impulses are another source of the crystallization of religion. Fathers and mothers and the leaders of larger human communities are mortal and fallible. The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes; the God who, according to the limits of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even or life itself; the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing; he who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God.
The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, a development continued in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially the peoples of the Orient, are primarily moral religions. The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in peoples' lives. And yet, that primitive religions are based entirely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on our guard. The truth is that all religions are a varying blend of both types, with this differentiation: that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.
Common to all these types is the anthropomorphic character of their conception of God. In general, only individuals of exceptional endowments, and exceptionally high-minded communities, rise to any considerable extent above this level. But there is a third stage of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form: I shall call it cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it.
The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole. The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear at an early stage of development, e.g., in many of the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learned especially from the wonderful writings of Schopenhauer, contains a much stronger element of this.
The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.
How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.
We thus arrive at a conception of the relation of science to religion very different from the usual one. When one views the matter historically, one is inclined to look upon science and religion as irreconcilable antagonists, and for a very obvious reason. The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.
It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees.On the other hand, I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics! Those whose acquaintance with scientific research is derived chiefly from its practical results easily develop a completely false notion of the mentality of the men who, surrounded by a skeptical world, have shown the way to kindred spirits scattered wide through the world and through the centuries. Only one who has devoted his life to similar ends can have a vivid realization of what has inspired these men and given them the strength to remain true to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength. A contemporary has said, not unjustly, that in this materialistic age of ours the serious scientific workers are the only profoundly religious people.
The following article by Albert Einstein appeared in the New York Times Magazine on November 9, 1930 pp 1-4. It has been reprinted in Ideas and Opinions, Crown Publishers, Inc. 1954, pp 36 - 40. It also appears in Einstein's book The World as I See It, Philosophical Library, New York, 1949, pp. 24 - 28.
Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of deeply felt needs and the assuagement of pain. One has to keep this constantly in mind if one wishes to understand spiritual movements and their development. Feeling and longing are the motive force behind all human endeavor and human creation, in however exalted a guise the latter may present themselves to us. Now what are the feelings and needs that have led men to religious thought and belief in the widest sense of the words? A little consideration will suffice to show us that the most varying emotions preside over the birth of religious thought and experience. With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions - fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death. Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal connections is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates illusory beings more or less analogous to itself on whose wills and actions these fearful happenings depend. Thus one tries to secure the favor of these beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which, according to the tradition handed down from generation to generation, propitiate them or make them well disposed toward a mortal. In this sense I am speaking of a religion of fear. This, though not created, is in an important degree stabilized by the formation of a special priestly caste which sets itself up as a mediator between the people and the beings they fear, and erects a hegemony on this basis. In many cases a leader or ruler or a privileged class whose position rests on other factors combines priestly functions with its secular authority in order to make the latter more secure; or the political rulers and the priestly caste make common cause in their own interests.
The social impulses are another source of the crystallization of religion. Fathers and mothers and the leaders of larger human communities are mortal and fallible. The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes; the God who, according to the limits of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even or life itself; the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing; he who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God.
The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, a development continued in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially the peoples of the Orient, are primarily moral religions. The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in peoples' lives. And yet, that primitive religions are based entirely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on our guard. The truth is that all religions are a varying blend of both types, with this differentiation: that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.
Common to all these types is the anthropomorphic character of their conception of God. In general, only individuals of exceptional endowments, and exceptionally high-minded communities, rise to any considerable extent above this level. But there is a third stage of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form: I shall call it cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it.
The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole. The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear at an early stage of development, e.g., in many of the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learned especially from the wonderful writings of Schopenhauer, contains a much stronger element of this.
The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.
How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.
We thus arrive at a conception of the relation of science to religion very different from the usual one. When one views the matter historically, one is inclined to look upon science and religion as irreconcilable antagonists, and for a very obvious reason. The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.
It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees.On the other hand, I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics! Those whose acquaintance with scientific research is derived chiefly from its practical results easily develop a completely false notion of the mentality of the men who, surrounded by a skeptical world, have shown the way to kindred spirits scattered wide through the world and through the centuries. Only one who has devoted his life to similar ends can have a vivid realization of what has inspired these men and given them the strength to remain true to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength. A contemporary has said, not unjustly, that in this materialistic age of ours the serious scientific workers are the only profoundly religious people.
6
Apple Talk / German Speakers
« on: October 05, 2012, 04:39:21 am »
Das ist anyone Here? I could use assistance translating.
8
Aneristic Illusions / Death of Saad Al-Hilli
« on: September 13, 2012, 08:58:28 am »
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9536990/France-shooting-hiker-describes-horror-of-murder-scene.html
Story of British family murderered in France.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9534285/France-shooting-Murdered-Briton-was-acting-strangely-before-family-were-killed.html
Another story, makes it look stranger. Describes killing as professional assassination. Strange behaviour by family before murder.
Sorry about only having Telegraph links; allegations death may have related to defence work.
Story of British family murderered in France.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9534285/France-shooting-Murdered-Briton-was-acting-strangely-before-family-were-killed.html
Another story, makes it look stranger. Describes killing as professional assassination. Strange behaviour by family before murder.
Sorry about only having Telegraph links; allegations death may have related to defence work.
Quote
Mr Al-Hilli worked for Surrey Satellites Technology Limited (SSTL) near Guildford, and detectives are expected to ask colleagues about whether his work may have made him a target for assassination.
Mr Al-Hilli was part of a team involved in an undisclosed project linked to European Aeronautic Defence and Space. The company designs and launches satellites for clients who want an "eye in the sky" for commercial, civil or security purposes.
However, friends and colleagues said his work was routine and not secret.
9
Aneristic Illusions / Compulsorily Voting
« on: September 08, 2012, 06:19:29 am »
Placid Dingo: Today, I'd like to talk about why compulsorily voting is a good idea.
Squid-Demon: That's ridiculous! Voting makes no difference at all! How does one vote matter?
PD: Well, it doesn't, not as just one vote. But I don't think of my vote as one vote. By taking part in Democracy (and encouraging others to do so), I'm part of sustaining a culture of participation within the democratic system. I influence others to participate, and help spread the cultural message of voting being important; a message which touches more than one person.
SD: But not everyone wants to cast a vote. So why force them?
PD: Firstly, compulsory voting makes it compulsorily to turn up, not to vote. You can draw a dick on your ballot instead of ticking a box if you like. Secondly, if everyone is compelled to vote, the government is compelled to cater to all areas; not just those who traditionally vote, ignoring those that don't.
SD: You think all those people are just going to vote cos you tell them to? That's naive.
PD: It would be naive to think so, but I don't think they'll all vote. I do think that a large number of people will, once a ballot is in front of them, choose to vote. So governments will be compelled to ensure they spread their message to a wider, broader demographic.
SD: But what about people who can't vote? You'll just fine them. That's a whole group of people who are usually busy, poor, disenfranchised, and you're just going to punish them financially.
PD: First, if you have a good excuse for missing the vote, you submit it, and you don't get fined. This could be anything from a car breaking down to a personal crisis. Secondly, there's alternative options, such as postal votes, support in second languages etc. Again, with a compulsorily system, it becomes more important to provide people with these alternative means of voting, as there would be great anger if these options were not provided.
SD: Won't this encourage less politically aware people to vote for some idiot they've never heard of?
PD: Isn't that the current system anyway? Democracy is meant to be the rule of the people, not rule of the handful who could be bothered voting. Again, if you see a whole demographic, racial, geographical or other suddenly voting, you as a politician are compelled to send your message to a broader group of people. Also, instead of putting energy into ensuring people bother to vote, the system can focus on educating people on their voting options and rights and the help they can access.
SD: But what if they have work to do, or kids to look after, or clothes to wash or...
PD: Participating in Democracy is a priority. If you can't vote, well you can't, and there's ways to get around that. But if we actually believe in Democracy, we should do what we can to ensure all citizens have their voice heard.
Squid-Demon: That's ridiculous! Voting makes no difference at all! How does one vote matter?
PD: Well, it doesn't, not as just one vote. But I don't think of my vote as one vote. By taking part in Democracy (and encouraging others to do so), I'm part of sustaining a culture of participation within the democratic system. I influence others to participate, and help spread the cultural message of voting being important; a message which touches more than one person.
SD: But not everyone wants to cast a vote. So why force them?
PD: Firstly, compulsory voting makes it compulsorily to turn up, not to vote. You can draw a dick on your ballot instead of ticking a box if you like. Secondly, if everyone is compelled to vote, the government is compelled to cater to all areas; not just those who traditionally vote, ignoring those that don't.
SD: You think all those people are just going to vote cos you tell them to? That's naive.
PD: It would be naive to think so, but I don't think they'll all vote. I do think that a large number of people will, once a ballot is in front of them, choose to vote. So governments will be compelled to ensure they spread their message to a wider, broader demographic.
SD: But what about people who can't vote? You'll just fine them. That's a whole group of people who are usually busy, poor, disenfranchised, and you're just going to punish them financially.
PD: First, if you have a good excuse for missing the vote, you submit it, and you don't get fined. This could be anything from a car breaking down to a personal crisis. Secondly, there's alternative options, such as postal votes, support in second languages etc. Again, with a compulsorily system, it becomes more important to provide people with these alternative means of voting, as there would be great anger if these options were not provided.
SD: Won't this encourage less politically aware people to vote for some idiot they've never heard of?
PD: Isn't that the current system anyway? Democracy is meant to be the rule of the people, not rule of the handful who could be bothered voting. Again, if you see a whole demographic, racial, geographical or other suddenly voting, you as a politician are compelled to send your message to a broader group of people. Also, instead of putting energy into ensuring people bother to vote, the system can focus on educating people on their voting options and rights and the help they can access.
SD: But what if they have work to do, or kids to look after, or clothes to wash or...
PD: Participating in Democracy is a priority. If you can't vote, well you can't, and there's ways to get around that. But if we actually believe in Democracy, we should do what we can to ensure all citizens have their voice heard.
10
Aneristic Illusions / Aussies in Afghanistan, Insurgents and Karzai
« on: September 03, 2012, 02:32:44 pm »A statement from the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) says Australian and Afghan troops hunting the killer of Lance Corporal Stjepan Milosevic, 40, Sapper James Martin, 21, and Private Robert Poate, 23, have captured "a key facilitator".
"Operating shoulder to shoulder, the Afghan and coalition soldiers successfully captured a key facilitator who not only enabled the insider attack, but also was responsible for IED (improvised explosive device) emplacement, and the kidnapping and murder of Afghan civilians," the ISAF statement said.
It said the operation was planned and executed in co-ordination with Afghan officials including approval by the Oruzgan provincial governor.
Afghanistan's president Hamid Karzai has hit out at the Australian military for killing two Afghan men during a search for the rogue soldier who shot dead three Australian troops last week.
The men - identified by the Afghan government as 70-year-old imam Haji Raz Mohammad and his 30-year-old son Abdul Jalil - were killed on Friday night.
The deaths occurred during a raid in which Australian soldiers captured a suspected insurgent leader who is thought to have been helping Hek Matullah, the Afghan soldier who killed three Australian soldiers in a green on blue attack last week, to escape.
Mr Karzai claimed the Australian soldiers acted unilaterally, breaching an agreement to give Afghan forces oversight of night raids.
"The president condemns the operation as a breach of the Memorandum of Understanding signed between Afghanistan and NATO on the special military operations," a statement released by the Afghan government reads.
"President Karzai has also instructed the relevant authorities to launch a full and an all-out probe into the incident so that Afghan government can take a stand as required on the violation of the mutual agreement."
11
Apple Talk / Contradiction Revolution
« on: September 02, 2012, 02:57:38 pm »
I'm in the process of believing two opposite things.
I believe that a meaningful cultural revolution is becoming inevitable. Not one that overthrows, or, let's face it, even really impacts politics, but a general cultural movement and shift in the model of the 60s hippy scene.
Everything is so geared to passive engagement. TV, Facebook, unlimited Data, capitalism.
Just doing in itself is becoming an act of Resistance. Non-regulation fun-times themselves are nearly an act of resistence, if not against any tangible opponent, against our stagnant culture of interacting in purely memetic (internet, TV) or preprogrammed (go to the movies, go shopping) contexts.
To break into the habits of culture building, of self directed value challenges and self exploration, is possible, and I feel is rumbling below the surface, just waiting to break open into streets, parks, homes.
I believe that a meaningful cultural revolution is becoming impossible. Especially one that overthrows, or, let's face it, even really impacts politics, but even more generally a general cultural movement and shift in the model of the 60s hippy scene.
Everything is so geared to passive engagement. TV, Facebook, unlimited Data, capitalism.
Just doing in itself is becoming an act of Resistance. Non-regulation fun-times themselves are nearly an act of resistence, if not against any tangible opponent, against our stagnant culture of interacting in purely memetic (internet, TV) or preprogrammed (go to the movies, go shopping) contexts.
To break into the habits of culture building, of self directed value challenges and self exploration, is difficult, and despite the need to experience something authentic, visceral and self directed the rumbling sense of desire for meaningful cultural change that lingers below the surface, just waiting to break open into streets, parks, homes, remains effectively distracted by flashing lights and gentle status quo corrections.
I believe that a meaningful cultural revolution is becoming inevitable. Not one that overthrows, or, let's face it, even really impacts politics, but a general cultural movement and shift in the model of the 60s hippy scene.
Everything is so geared to passive engagement. TV, Facebook, unlimited Data, capitalism.
Just doing in itself is becoming an act of Resistance. Non-regulation fun-times themselves are nearly an act of resistence, if not against any tangible opponent, against our stagnant culture of interacting in purely memetic (internet, TV) or preprogrammed (go to the movies, go shopping) contexts.
To break into the habits of culture building, of self directed value challenges and self exploration, is possible, and I feel is rumbling below the surface, just waiting to break open into streets, parks, homes.
I believe that a meaningful cultural revolution is becoming impossible. Especially one that overthrows, or, let's face it, even really impacts politics, but even more generally a general cultural movement and shift in the model of the 60s hippy scene.
Everything is so geared to passive engagement. TV, Facebook, unlimited Data, capitalism.
Just doing in itself is becoming an act of Resistance. Non-regulation fun-times themselves are nearly an act of resistence, if not against any tangible opponent, against our stagnant culture of interacting in purely memetic (internet, TV) or preprogrammed (go to the movies, go shopping) contexts.
To break into the habits of culture building, of self directed value challenges and self exploration, is difficult, and despite the need to experience something authentic, visceral and self directed the rumbling sense of desire for meaningful cultural change that lingers below the surface, just waiting to break open into streets, parks, homes, remains effectively distracted by flashing lights and gentle status quo corrections.
12
Principia Discussion / Discordia merchandising looking for artists
« on: August 23, 2012, 11:42:16 pm »
They want new artists. Email designs to eshop@gmail.com.
Cool. Edited.
13
Principia Discussion / Point in time at which only a handful of Discordians will be left
« on: August 23, 2012, 11:06:44 pm »
Im a bit late putting it out there, but a lot of people still have invitations from events sent out when the Discordian Society on Facebook spammed the fuck out of people with event invites.
There's only a handful of events this far in the future but I thought it might be interesting to do some celebrations. The upcoming event is 'time at which only a handful of Discordians will be left.' Date; September 9. Any suggestiOns?
There's only a handful of events this far in the future but I thought it might be interesting to do some celebrations. The upcoming event is 'time at which only a handful of Discordians will be left.' Date; September 9. Any suggestiOns?
14
Principia Discussion / Whole Principia in French (With pics)
« on: August 20, 2012, 02:05:09 pm »
From here;http://www.magick-instinct.org/ Downloads as word file. Did you guys know about this?
OOOH TASTY, French Language PD Jpegs. OMNOMNOM!
OOOH TASTY, French Language PD Jpegs. OMNOMNOM!
15
Apple Talk / 'Illusion of truth effect' and the similar effect I can't remember
« on: August 19, 2012, 02:22:43 pm »
IOT: When people are presented familiar information, they will remember it as true.
The one I forgot: In studies where people are shown a list of statements where some are true and some are false, them have the false statements pointed out, they are MORE likely to identify the false statements as true once they have been remembered once.
Does anyone remember what this second one is called? IT's been mentioned on this site.
Also, discuss.
The one I forgot: In studies where people are shown a list of statements where some are true and some are false, them have the false statements pointed out, they are MORE likely to identify the false statements as true once they have been remembered once.
Does anyone remember what this second one is called? IT's been mentioned on this site.
Also, discuss.