Western civilization Has over the last few decades become a world of consumerism. Once we were manufacturers, builders, innovators. Those days are all but gone now, we have become just consumers.
Think I'm being harsh? Think again.
I hear the youth of today prattle on about technology. Sure, it has helped make life easier. Maybe too easy. It is getting more difficult with every passing day to find someone who is willing to get dirty, who knows the nuts and bolts of how things work.
When I take my car in for service the mechanics wear those little doctors gloves. Can you believe that? Maybe I can see plumbers wearing some protection since we now have some rather spectacular diseases out there. But an auto mechanic?
Even games kids play today have predictable outcomes. Yes, I am talking about those video games so many are so addicted to. If the least desirable outcome happens, there is a reset button. This allows a second, third, etc chance of winning the game. This is not reality.
Reality doesn't have a reset button. What are they learning from this? There was a day when things like that didn't exist. Kids would be outside using their imagination.
A game involving a stick could turn into some kind of crazy invention that had a better than even chance of leaving a scar somewhere on your body. But we didn't quit, we would make it better.
We were thinking, inventing, doing. We had games like Erector sets, Lincoln Logs, things that required hands on participation and thought.
As the Boomer generation retires and dies off who will fill out shoes? Who will be willing to lay down on a dirty factory floor to keep the equipment running? Who will even know how to?
Real craftsmen are becoming more and more difficult to find. Sub-standard work is more readily accepted now. Why? Because this has to start at a time when one is young. What youth today would rather learn to make woodwork worthy of a gasp from its viewers when they have technology and games?
Who among us today would be willing and able to paint a ceiling so perfect that people would come from every corner of the world to see it and wonder at its glory?
The list goes on and on, but you get the idea. The West will finally be defeated, not by a great army at its borders, but by forgetting how to accomplish things.
We've always been consumers, right from the very beginning...Capitalism can't function any other way. The flaw has been revealed in that system, though, that if an interuption in the economy causes people to stop buying things they don't need, the whole system falls apart.
Once we were consuming what we made ourselves.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 14, 2011, 04:53:11 PM
Once we were consuming what we made ourselves.
Oh, sure. And that's just the natural inclination of corporations. If allowed to operate unchecked, they go for maximum profits, no matter what the actual cost.
Corporations exist solely to increase share values. This is why they need to be regulated.
So.. if it had always been cheaper and feasible to outsource jobs and production, then this "we consumed what we made ourselves" golden age would never have existed? That's kicking nostalgia in the teeth.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 14, 2011, 04:57:57 PM
Corporations exist solely to increase share values. This is why they need to be regulated.
Such talk makes investors nervous.
I'm so nervous I'm going to crap my pants all over this italian leather upholstery.
Damn, then I'll have to buy a new jet.
\
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/nevoussuit.jpg)
I'm not even sure what "the west" is. Norman Davies has collected over 36 different definitions of that phrase, from history books and classes alone. Nor am I especially sure why it matters. Up until the 15th century, China and the great empires that rose up upon the Silk Road dominated the world in a way which would've made imperial Romans, let alone contemporary European powers, boggle. In fact, up until at least the late 18th century, China's most economically developed region outstripped UK production massively, with many of the same technological innovations being used in both countries.
And colonization, economic exploitation of the third world and technological advances were essentially built on the profits of consumption anyway. The British didn't take over India because they thought it'd be a golly good wheez, they did it for cotton, opium and indigo dye. Consumption leads innovation and technological advances - consumption alone cannot be blamed as a great evil, because without it, nothing much would be made in the first place.
And I'm entirely sure that tax-free offshore factories factor far more into this arragement than any arguments about "western" laziness. Investors and companies go where the best profits are offered, and these tends to be countries where you can get your hand cut off for trying to join a union or ask your boss for a raise.
Quote from: Captain Utopia on February 14, 2011, 05:08:42 PM
So.. if it had always been cheaper and feasible to outsource jobs and production, then this "we consumed what we made ourselves" golden age would never have existed? That's kicking nostalgia in the teeth.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 14, 2011, 04:57:57 PM
Corporations exist solely to increase share values. This is why they need to be regulated.
Such talk makes investors nervous.
I'm so nervous I'm going to crap my pants all over this italian leather upholstery.
Damn, then I'll have to buy a new jet.
\
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/nevoussuit.jpg)
Kind of missing the boat here. Once Americans was a blue collar nation. Everyone wanted to work. The economy was so different that no comparison can be made. There wasn't really any place to outsource jobs to. Then workers saw huge company profits and wanted some of it. Things went to hell.
There wasn't anywhere to outsource jobs to because Europe and Japan had been devastated in the course of the second world war, the Soviets weren't letting investors into their zone of influence and the third world was ablaze with revolutionary movements - either Communist or antiCommunist in orientation and both just as willing to seize some idiot foreigner's factory on a flimsy pretext.
Once things became more stable, outsourcing began.
Quote from: Cain on February 14, 2011, 05:11:20 PM
I'm not even sure what "the west" is. Norman Davies has collected over 36 different definitions of that phrase, from history books and classes alone. Nor am I especially sure why it matters. Up until the 15th century, China and the great empires that rose up upon the Silk Road dominated the world in a way which would've made imperial Romans, let alone contemporary European powers, boggle. In fact, up until at least the late 18th century, China's most economically developed region outstripped UK production massively, with many of the same technological innovations being used in both countries.
And colonization, economic exploitation of the third world and technological advances were essentially built on the profits of consumption anyway. The British didn't take over India because they thought it'd be a golly good wheez, they did it for cotton, opium and indigo dye. Consumption leads innovation and technological advances - consumption alone cannot be blamed as a great evil, because without it, nothing much would be made in the first place.
And I'm entirely sure that tax-free offshore factories factor far more into this arragement than any arguments about "western" laziness. Investors and companies go where the best profits are offered, and these tends to be countries where you can get your hand cut off for trying to join a union or ask your boss for a raise.
America, Great Britain, etc did move towards protecting workers from slave-like and horrible working conditions. This certainly drove up the costs for manufacturers. EPA laws was a big factor in driving up costs.
Developing countries are going to be very lax on all of these things, just to try to get out of poverty. This allows companies to earn untold amounts of money, making shareholders happy.
This is why I personally would love to see extremely high taxes on companies that are outsourcing jobs, that is the only way to level the playing field. Instead they are stepping through giant tax loopholes.
...I'm pretty sure I still suscribe to the idea that it's better for the world in general for people in places like India and Mexico to improve their lot in life. That, of course, is going to result in loss of luxury elsewhere. And when I say "luxury" I mean goods and services that a lot of 1st worlders take for granted.
Just uh take a look at Africa and Afghanistan and you'll know what I mean. Despotism and extreme poverty go hand in hand. Guess who "fixes that shit" and guess who still ends up feeding that monster in the end?
Quote from: Jenne on February 15, 2011, 06:57:45 PM
...I'm pretty sure I still suscribe to the idea that it's better for the world in general for people in places like India and Mexico to improve their lot in life. That, of course, is going to result in loss of luxury elsewhere. And when I say "luxury" I mean goods and services that a lot of 1st worlders take for granted.
Just uh take a look at Africa and Afghanistan and you'll know what I mean. Despotism and extreme poverty go hand in hand. Guess who "fixes that shit" and guess who still ends up feeding that monster in the end?
I think I hope I don't understand what you are saying.
You probably do. I don't think we have to "worry" about the preservation of the GREAT, GRAND WESTERN CIVILIZATION. I'm not sure we were really ever so very great and grand, in the scheme of things. We were LUCKY. Lucky fuckers.
With that in mind, in a global view, it makes more sense to foster increased wealth, health and education in places that are vulnerable to despotism. They'll less likely be apt to follow that path, whether we're "helping" instigate it or not. I don't think it's anything to worry about if our wealth as a nation suffers a small bit in this endeavor. I'm not talking about making the rich richer and the poor poorer in America.
But I'm not going to begrudge CALL CENTER jobs to India over it, either. We disagree in this as we do about illegal labor, Hawk. I'm not anti-illegal labor here. At all. *shrug*
Quote from: Jenne on February 15, 2011, 08:33:46 PM
You probably do. I don't think we have to "worry" about the preservation of the GREAT, GRAND WESTERN CIVILIZATION. I'm not sure we were really ever so very great and grand, in the scheme of things. We were LUCKY. Lucky fuckers.
With that in mind, in a global view, it makes more sense to foster increased wealth, health and education in places that are vulnerable to despotism. They'll less likely be apt to follow that path, whether we're "helping" instigate it or not. I don't think it's anything to worry about if our wealth as a nation suffers a small bit in this endeavor. I'm not talking about making the rich richer and the poor poorer in America.
But I'm not going to begrudge CALL CENTER jobs to India over it, either. We disagree in this as we do about illegal labor, Hawk. I'm not anti-illegal labor here. At all. *shrug*
Wow.
So in the interest of making those countries more immune to their fate, America needs to suffer to pay for our past success?
Lucky? Really? People worked their asses off for that 'luck'. I don't give a fuck if Afghanistan has a dictator, what's new about that? It's not just call center jobs leaving the country either.
The rich? I don't care about them. I care about the family who is loosing their home because their job is no longer here. About those kids who are are homeless now.
Charity begins at home.
As callous as it sounds, though, Jenne is right about several things.
The "Guarantee of American Primacy" is a fallacy of the worst order. Socieities and civilizations are never static entities, and neither is trade or global economics. The outsourcing of production from wealthier high-wage countries to poorer low-wage countries was inevitable. Nostalgic talk of a time when american blue-collar workers could make a wage that would support a family is nice and all, but it's talk of a tiny window in time set during very particular circumstances. And nobody wants to think about the fact that, in the end, such talk brought to fruition would result in $20 disposable razors, $5000 laptops, and $65,000 compact cars.
If your wages suddenly double, but your cost of living more than doubles, who's coming out ahead?
And at what cost do we protect those unable to adapt to ever-changing economic conditions?
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 15, 2011, 09:16:32 PM
As callous as it sounds, though, Jenne is right about several things.
The "Guarantee of American Primacy" is a fallacy of the worst order. Socieities and civilizations are never static entities, and neither is trade or global economics. The outsourcing of production from wealthier high-wage countries to poorer low-wage countries was inevitable. Nostalgic talk of a time when american blue-collar workers could make a wage that would support a family is nice and all, but it's talk of a tiny window in time set during very particular circumstances. And nobody wants to think about the fact that, in the end, such talk brought to fruition would result in $20 disposable razors, $5000 laptops, and $65,000 compact cars.
If your wages suddenly double, but your cost of living more than doubles, who's coming out ahead?
And at what cost do we protect those unable to adapt to ever-changing economic conditions?
At the cost of not bringing back sweatshops, slave-like conditions and destroying the environment. Or is that not happening in the countries the companies are moving into?
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 08:42:12 PM
So in the interest of making those countries more immune to their fate, America needs to suffer to pay for our past success?
Lucky? Really? People worked their asses off for that 'luck'.
Actually, yes. Luck and geography.
Up until about 200-300 years ago, it quite easily could have been China, or Russia, that emerged as the world superpower. Especially Russia, for most of history their military and economic power has overshadowed most countries. Energy deposits an global positioning plus the transfer of technology plus the adoption of more efficient economic systems are what the modern world's wealth was built on. It's not like Americans or Brits
actually worked harder than anyone else, instead they more successfully used the opportunities afforded to them through circumstance and luck to build vast amounts of wealth. If China had been closer to California than New England was to actual England, I have no doubt at least some of this conversation would be happening in Mandarin and not English.
Maybe I've misunderstood. When I think blue collar workers, I'm thinking skilled laborers. Plumbers, masons and the like. Are we putting unskilled plant (manufacturing) workers in with this mix?
I guess we have too. I think outsourcing (out of country outsourcing) unskilled jobs is both bad and good. Bad in that we have a shit ton of people in the US who have no skills and could do those jobs, but good for those countries who desperately need the income and good for the American pocketbook. In truth, it's not like any of the "I'm King of the World" generation is going to stoop to doing one of those jobs anyway.
X-posted from another site..... my words....
This is a priviledged generation. We've made it so easy for them. No challenges or obstacles to overcome. Hell they even banned dodgeball.
Within the next 10 years, there will be very few trade workers. We kept telling every child to go to college, but we forgot about those things that must be done, plumbing, construction, electric, carpentry etc... These trades lose more workers than they gain every year. I can say, with all confidence, my mechanic makes more than my Rheumatologist. Why? There are 300 Rheumatologists to 30 mechanics...
We've reached a point in our history where there are more college graduates than ever before. Problem is half of them are managing a Starbucks.
So we can drink a nice latte while the building falls down around us because while I have a college graduate fixing my coffee, there is no one to fix the roof.
Quote from: Khara on February 15, 2011, 09:31:10 PM
Maybe I've misunderstood. When I think blue collar workers, I'm thinking skilled laborers. Plumbers, masons and the like. Are we putting unskilled plant (manufacturing) workers in with this mix?
I guess we have too. I think outsourcing (out of country outsourcing) unskilled jobs is both bad and good. Bad in that we have a shit ton of people in the US who have no skills and could do those jobs, but good for those countries who desperately need the income and good for the American pocketbook. In truth, it's not like any of the "I'm King of the World" generation is going to stoop to doing one of those jobs anyway.
X-posted from another site..... my words....
This is a priviledged generation. We've made it so easy for them. No challenges or obstacles to overcome. Hell they even banned dodgeball.
Within the next 10 years, there will be very few trade workers. We kept telling every child to go to college, but we forgot about those things that must be done, plumbing, construction, electric, carpentry etc... These trades lose more workers than they gain every year. I can say, with all confidence, my mechanic makes more than my Rheumatologist. Why? There are 300 Rheumatologists to 30 mechanics...
We've reached a point in our history where there are more college graduates than ever before. Problem is half of them are managing a Starbucks.
So we can drink a nice latte while the building falls down around us because while I have a college graduate fixing my coffee, there is no one to fix the roof.
Like Roger said, it took him 3 years to find 4 young guys who could do mechanical work. I had a kid working for me who once read a tape measure as 9 and 3/4 and 2 of those little lines after that. He never did learn to read a tape measure. And don't get me started on fractions, which every trade need to know. Hell, even my partner couldn't even do fractions when I had my construction company.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 09:39:10 PM
Like Roger said, it took him 3 years to find 4 young guys who could do mechanical work. I had a kid working for me who once read a tape measure as 9 and 3/4 and 2 of those little lines after that. He never did learn to read a tape measure. And don't get me started on fractions, which every trade need to know. Hell, even my partner couldn't even do fractions when I had my construction company.
I understand what you are saying. I don't consider those unskilled labor jobs. :?
Quote from: Khara on February 15, 2011, 09:42:24 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 09:39:10 PM
Like Roger said, it took him 3 years to find 4 young guys who could do mechanical work. I had a kid working for me who once read a tape measure as 9 and 3/4 and 2 of those little lines after that. He never did learn to read a tape measure. And don't get me started on fractions, which every trade need to know. Hell, even my partner couldn't even do fractions when I had my construction company.
I understand what you are saying. I don't consider those unskilled labor jobs. :?
Me either.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 09:39:10 PM
Like Roger said, it took him 3 years to find 4 young guys who could do mechanical work. I had a kid working for me who once read a tape measure as 9 and 3/4 and 2 of those little lines after that. He never did learn to read a tape measure. And don't get me started on fractions, which every trade need to know. Hell, even my partner couldn't even do fractions when I had my construction company.
Change to the metric system, it makes more precise measurements and an old monkey can read it.
In regards to the OP, I think the trouble is nobody is willing to do the hard work because it isn't "glamorous" to be covered in shit and stinking like a rotten diaper. Most kids I've met have either stars in their eyes or suits and ties, looking for the prestige and the nice juicy paycheck that attracts the wemonz. The only people nowadays who actually do the hard work are dropouts who never gained a Year 10 certificate and/or are forced to be a shitkicker due to lack of options.
One big problem we have where I am is that there is a total lack of pride taken in peoples work. I've lived in the same house for over 20 years and we have only had to do only minor repair work (water damage to a small section of the ceiling, re-pointing roof tiles, me busting holes in walls etc) to it in that time.
On the other hand new housing developments are thrown up in as little as 8 months and they barely last 3 years before they have to be gutted and the majority of the internal structure has to be replaced. Developers buy cheap, throw houses up for cheap, sell for big money and wash their hands with it. The sad thing is that people still pay the ridiculous sale price because of the current housing crisis and they don't know what good workmanship looks like. The majority of the workers on these development jobs are unskilled, underpaid foreign labor who follow the work city to city and couldn't give two shits about the wonky walls and the holes in the sheet metal ceiling because, at $12 an hour, they're not paid to care. Driving down wages for the local workforce and taking positions from young kids trying to find an opening in a highly competitive industry.
People go where the money is, and the money isn't on the shop floor. It's in management telling the shitkickers to work harder, faster and cheaper. And if any of them start to cause a fuss over conditions or wages then there are about 50 workers in the third world who are willing to do it at half the price and who will lick your boot for the privilege, if you aren't there already.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 15, 2011, 09:27:35 PM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 15, 2011, 09:16:32 PM
As callous as it sounds, though, Jenne is right about several things.
The "Guarantee of American Primacy" is a fallacy of the worst order. Socieities and civilizations are never static entities, and neither is trade or global economics. The outsourcing of production from wealthier high-wage countries to poorer low-wage countries was inevitable. Nostalgic talk of a time when american blue-collar workers could make a wage that would support a family is nice and all, but it's talk of a tiny window in time set during very particular circumstances. And nobody wants to think about the fact that, in the end, such talk brought to fruition would result in $20 disposable razors, $5000 laptops, and $65,000 compact cars.
If your wages suddenly double, but your cost of living more than doubles, who's coming out ahead?
And at what cost do we protect those unable to adapt to ever-changing economic conditions?
At the cost of not bringing back sweatshops, slave-like conditions and destroying the environment. Or is that not happening in the countries the companies are moving into?
That's going to happen wherever those industrial and manufacturing jobs are. If they move back here, you can bet your ass that repeals of worker protections won't be far behind (and will probably be ahead).