Hello, long time no see.... I had a lot of work recently - doh!
Anyways, here is my question:
What's the best way to speak to self-confessed ignorant people?
Consider this problem, if you will...
I am a vegetarian.
(I watched the news when I was 9 years old, realised that some animals had been comodified and being kinda sceptical about the quality of other commodified goods, and understanding the evils of humankind, decided that these animals were treated in cruel ways through our strange addition with making things faster and cheaper).
I don't believe that eating meat is wrong, I simply believe that torturing animals is wrong. (I'm not talking about the killing process - I'm talking mainly about the farming methods) Anyways - this is not a debate on vegitarianism or farming methods - nor do I wish it to become one, if you want to know about those things then do your own research (ie. think for yourself Schmuck ;))
OK so back to the question. I guy @ work asked me about being vegge today - and i replied with the above reason. His response was "They don't do that in this country" so I replied by sending him a couple of web links and a video which proves that they do. I titled the email "Eat this". He responded by saying "No, eat this" and posted a pic of a burger. I said words to the effect of "It is not because men’s desires are strong that they act ill; it's because their conscience is weak". He then replied again by saying "I am weak willed and have little to no morals or conscience". So, I say to him that "Lack of intelligence also… as those who think, think." And he responds with "No time to think too busy eating cows and seals and bears".
So, the man is into his music - I post him the lyrics to 2 songs about Ignorance and Narcissism (for those of you interested, Get the shot by Attitude, and Reflection by Tool)
And his response is the lyrics to Sesame Street..... see where we are going here? .....That's right, nowhere!
I reply with "Happy smackhead! Pass the needle plix!"
and he says nothing.
So, after this massive post and explaination.
What do *you* think is the best way to communicate with people who are self-confessed ignorant?
Please note: In your reply please refrain from talking about vegetarianism, this will distract from the point of the arguement. Please also note that I was not trying to pass judgement on the guy for eating meat, nor was I trying to pass my viewpoint on to him. What I wanted to do was to show him *what actually happens* so that he could then decide for himself =)
I would like to post in response to this 2 links as points of interest:
http://www.deardrkristi.com/?p=7
http://deoxy.org/8_larvals.htm
Hmmmm. I tend not to communicate with people who WANT to be ignorant. It's their choice after all, and it will provide me with lail when then self pwn.
I have to say though that my responses to you would have been somewhat similar :D
My general rule of thumb is if you can't sway them through reasoned argument, then work off emotions, lies, rhetoric, appeals to fallacies etc to bring them around.
I think my sig is appropriate. Not the fisting Bono bit, the actual quote.
Though fisting Bono is always appropriate, regardless of circumstance.
I like it :D Nice quote
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." - Mark Twain
It sounds like you're hitting a brick wall because he just doesn't care. I think you're being trolled. He can remain callously passive and unmoved, and is perhaps amused by the energy you're spending trying to change his mind.
I mean, if you came up to me with that shtick I'd probably brush you off too. If he were interested in debating with you about veggie-ism, you'd have a foothold. He'd be at least somewhat receptive. But I mean, if someone came up to me and tried to debate about, say, some facet of celebrity gossip, I couldn't care less. "Well don't you want to be informed?", "No."
And for that matter, what does it matter if he's ignorant about one of your personal choices? It doesn't really affect him, right? Unless your goal is to get him to embrace vegitarianism... well, that's a horse of another color
Ignorant people are not for communicating with.
Ignorant people are for conning out of cash
EOT
Quote from: SillyCybin on April 18, 2008, 05:24:48 PM
Ignorant people are not for communicating with.
Ignorant people are for conning out of cash
Perhaps tell him you've converted to a meatitarian and offer to buy him burgers for lunch one day with his own money. And then give him a salad! Oh, the trickery.
Well he started the conversation... firstly he asked me about being a vegge.
Secondly, this guy is some work collegue... he "seems" clever enough, but I don't know him. So I couldnt really make a judgement, and didnt know he was ignorant until he told me he was.
Edit: People often like to have the ability to explain complex phenomena in simple terms, in the interests of communication.
In the interest of communication, I would love to be able to find the 'hook' with this guy and not pass on my opinion, just some basic info.
Fuck you, I love meat.
I say you club him then eat him
oh wait you dont eat meat
:sad:
You could wear the skin thos.
Assuming you're not a vegan
I'd say give it up, you're not going to get anywhere with this. I mean you're talking about a basic of life, consumption. He likes meat, so he's going to eat meat. I imagine he was curious about vegetarianism on some level, but it was a novel interest. That is, he wasn't asking because he would ever consider being vegetarian.
That doesn't mean you can't communicate with this person, it probably does mean you can't communicate with him on this topic. I'd say let it die, and go eat a bacon cheeseburger. They are delicious!
For the record I've never been involved in a debate about the rights and wrongs of eating meat that didn't descend into a slagging match within about 5 or 6 syllables.
And I'm almost as old as Roger - I've been in a few of these now.
To the Original Post:
I'd start by easing up on the "you're ignorant" bit.
Condesending to people is never a good opening gambit.
Quote from: LMNO on April 18, 2008, 06:34:25 PM
To the Original Post:
I'd start by easing up on the "you're ignorant" bit.
Condesending to people is never a good opening gambit.
Agreed.
Can't remember the exact source of the quote but to paraphrase:
"You cannot judge another man's soul by the contents of their dinner plate."
Unless said dinner plate is full of live babies
Quote from: SillyCybin on April 18, 2008, 07:13:49 PM
Unless said dinner plate is full of live babies
Oh yes. I forget about the 'Idi Amin Clause'.
this thread is now about converting Politician168023 to eat meat.
pay close attention and then simply apply the reverse process to the other guy.
step one:
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7853/8973207370dcb30d22ad9.jpg)
(something wrapped in bacon. i dunno what, but it looks good and it got bacon!)
honestly the sort of... sheen on that bacon makes that look most unappetizing (to me).
Unappetizing bacon is the best kind!
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on April 18, 2008, 08:53:15 PM
honestly the sort of... sheen on that bacon makes that look most unappetizing (to me).
post better bacon pics then.
nom nom nom nom!
\
(http://annarbor.albertelli.com:85/weblog/photos/bacon0008.jpeg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/StatueOfFrancisBacon.jpg)
(http://jerryandmartha.com/yourdailyart/images/Bacon.jpg)
and this one came up when I searched "bacon art": http://www.brandspankingnew.net/img/headers/lil_kim_lachapelle.jpg it has bewbies so I put it behind a link in the interest of SFWness.
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 18, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
What do *you* think is the best way to communicate with people who are self-confessed ignorant?
He already told you that he didn't want to learn. He asked you why you don't eat meat, you told him, after that it became a pissing match. It's your choice whether to enjoy the pissing match or to walk away from it.
Personally, it's at the point where someone indicates that they would prefer to stay ignorant that I walk away from the topic.
Quote from: Cain on April 18, 2008, 05:00:42 PM
My general rule of thumb is if you can't sway them through reasoned argument, then work off emotions, lies, rhetoric, appeals to fallacies etc to bring them around.
This is the correct motorcycle.
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8635/wtfmotorcycleis3.jpg)
QuoteWhat's the best way to speak to self-confessed ignorant people?
The same as anyone else.
In the case of this vegge vs. meat-eater argument, it's not so much that the guy wants to remain ignorant, as that he wants to remain a meat-eater. For some people, that's something that goes all the way down to their core beliefs and identity. That's not something that most are willing to change without exceptionally good cause.
But the fact that someone eats meat doesn't automatically mean they're stupidly ignorant. Sure the guy probably hasn't seen the videos of our meat industry, but if he knows what's good for him, he doesn't want to see those images. Also, just because he chooses to remain ignorant about eating meat, doesn't mean that he's a complete idiot. After all, it's virtually impossible to know everything, and we often have to filter out stuff just to keep our heads from exploding.
At this point, you may have already lost the argument with this guy. He was probably curious about what would motivate someone to be vegge, but wasn't intending to convert. He may not have ever met a vegetarian in person before in his entire life, and wondered if they are all the militant vegans we hear about through the media. Did you reinforce his preconceptions, or break them? If the former, you've already lost the argument, and would be best to drop it. But if it was the latter (which is what you will always want to aim for), then you'll have his attention, and a much better chance of changing his perceptions.
Quote from: Netaungrot on April 19, 2008, 10:47:34 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 18, 2008, 05:00:42 PM
My general rule of thumb is if you can't sway them through reasoned argument, then work off emotions, lies, rhetoric, appeals to fallacies etc to bring them around.
This is the correct motorcycle.
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8635/wtfmotorcycleis3.jpg)
2nded
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 18, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
His response was "They don't do that in this country" so I replied by sending him a couple of web links and a video which proves that they do. I titled the email "Eat this". He responded by saying "No, eat this" and posted a pic of a burger.
You realise that your friend just owned you, right?
His ability to do whatever the hell he wants, regardless of your personal opinion, is an admirable one.
He saw "what actually happens", decided it wasn't a big deal, and chose to eat meat anyway.
Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that he's ignorant.
Free thought is a bitch like that, isn't it?
Quote from: davedim on April 19, 2008, 07:21:52 PM
He saw "what actually happens", decided it wasn't a big deal, and chose to eat meat anyway.
Actually, I got the impression that he just didn't watch it because he didn't give a fuck.
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on April 21, 2008, 12:19:32 AM
Actually, I got the impression that he just didn't watch it because he didn't give a fuck.
Not seeing the reasoning there.
I don't give a fuck about most things I watch.
"No, eat this" + a hamburger seems more to me like a knee-jerk "I'm not watching your fucking vegetarian propaganda" reaction than a "I watched this video and although I found it intriguing, I have decided that I still enjoy eating meat, thus am sending you this picture of a hamburger to reinforce my position" reaction.
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on April 21, 2008, 03:15:13 AM
"No, eat this" + a hamburger seems more to me like a knee-jerk "I'm not watching your fucking vegetarian propaganda" reaction than a "I watched this video and although I found it intriguing, I have decided that I still enjoy eating meat, thus am sending you this picture of a hamburger to reinforce my position" reaction.
Sounds like a troll to me.
DON'T FEED THE TROLL (salad)!
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 18, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
Consider this problem, if you will...
I am a vegetarian.
Yeah, that's a problem. You fart too fucking much.
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 18, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
Please note: In your reply please refrain from talking about vegetarianism, this will distract from the point of the arguement.
Fuck you.
Consider this the first step in my revenge against you fucking hippies.
Hillarious and Intelligent remarks guys - those with brains really stand out in this crowd, or should I say mob?
Before you make comments about my use of the word 'ignorant' - please, do a search for posts containing the word 'ignorant' on this board - look for your own name in the pages that are returned =) I'm sure you will find it enlightening ;)
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on April 21, 2008, 03:15:13 AM
"No, eat this" + a hamburger seems more to me like a knee-jerk "I'm not watching your fucking vegetarian propaganda" reaction than a "I watched this video and although I found it intriguing, I have decided that I still enjoy eating meat, thus am sending you this picture of a hamburger to reinforce my position" reaction.
Good point.
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 21, 2008, 09:57:44 AM
Hillarious and Intelligent remarks guys - those with brains really stand out in this crowd, or should I say mob?
C'mon now, don't turn into one of those guys, you seem decent.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on April 21, 2008, 01:45:26 PM
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 21, 2008, 09:57:44 AM
Hillarious and Intelligent remarks guys - those with brains really stand out in this crowd, or should I say mob?
C'mon now, don't turn into one of those guys, you seem decent.
WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!! :argh!:
My bad, it's early.
Even though I'm mad that I'm awake, I'm strangely docile. Let the rage build for a few hours...
Quote from: hunter s.durden on April 21, 2008, 01:52:38 PM
My bad, it's early.
Even though I'm mad that I'm awake, I'm strangely docile. Let the rage build for a few hours...
It's the emo-knight avatar - swap it for something MEAN
see if that helps
Heath Ledger is OFFICIALLY my best friend.
I'm tired of lying to myself, nobody can compare.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on April 21, 2008, 01:44:01 PM
Quote from: TheStripèdOne on April 21, 2008, 03:15:13 AM
"No, eat this" + a hamburger seems more to me like a knee-jerk "I'm not watching your fucking vegetarian propaganda" reaction than a "I watched this video and although I found it intriguing, I have decided that I still enjoy eating meat, thus am sending you this picture of a hamburger to reinforce my position" reaction.
Good point.
agree..
Quote from: hunter s.durden on April 21, 2008, 01:45:26 PM
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 21, 2008, 09:57:44 AM
Hillarious and Intelligent remarks guys - those with brains really stand out in this crowd, or should I say mob?
C'mon now, don't turn into one of those guys, you seem decent.
Thanks, and sorry - wasnt aimed at all the lovely thoughtful replies, just at the name calling pplz who think that Hitler was a hippy ;)
Like this guy:
Quote from: hunter s.durden on April 18, 2008, 05:38:17 PM
Fuck you, I love meat.
Fuckin' people.
Anyhoo, most people here are well aware that Hitler was, in fact, an emo.
There is a perfectly good reason for a kneejerk reaction of this ilk - anyone ever met one of THOSE vegetarians?
You know the kind - like a fundie christian but selling salad instead of salvation? There's too issues on the table - health and animal rights. Now if you wanna argue about the cholesterol impact of tofu vs steak that's one thing but if bessie the cow deserves a vote then you can fuck off in my book. The argument never worked before and it wont work now and if you want someone to blame try the last 100 stereotype veggie-warriors who stepped in my path.
Quote from: SillyCybin on April 21, 2008, 02:31:04 PM
but if bessie the cow deserves a vote then you can fuck off in my book.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
SRSLY - I got fuck all time for justified moral crusades, never mind animal rights
Yeah, we should probably do something about human rights first.
"If you're flying with a child, put on your mask first, and then assist your child."
Interesting point: Hitler was not in fact a vegetarian. It was a myth, created to cultivate an image of asceticism (he didn't drink or smoke either). His doctors tried to stop him from eating meat, to cure flatulence, but he frequently ate sausages and his favourite meal was stuffed pigeon, IIRC. There were periods of time he stopped eating meat for a while, but that was the exception, not the rule.
Still, ignore all that when trolling PETA members.
Oh, we're supposed to be Truth-Only trolls now?
FUCK YUO CAIN YOU'RE IMPINGING ON MY PERSONAL FREEDOMS YOU INTERNET TERRORIST
Cainad,
Actually doesn't troll enough for this to matter anyway
Quote from: SillyCybin on April 21, 2008, 02:31:04 PM
There is a perfectly good reason for a kneejerk reaction of this ilk - anyone ever met one of THOSE vegetarians?
You know the kind - like a fundie christian but selling salad instead of salvation? There's too issues on the table - health and animal rights. Now if you wanna argue about the cholesterol impact of tofu vs steak that's one thing but if bessie the cow deserves a vote then you can fuck off in my book. The argument never worked before and it wont work now and if you want someone to blame try the last 100 stereotype veggie-warriors who stepped in my path.
Heh, even then the health advantages are still pretty questionable, when a system evolves based on a particular sort of fuel consumption, changing the fuel without changing the system sounds like a recipe for SYSTEM BROKED
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 21, 2008, 10:40:12 AM
please, do a search for posts containing the word 'ignorant' on this board
Search is working?
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 21, 2008, 09:57:44 AM
Hillarious and Intelligent remarks guys - those with brains really stand out in this crowd, or should I say mob?
"torchbearing mob".
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 21, 2008, 10:40:12 AM
Before you make comments about my use of the word 'ignorant' - please, do a search for posts containing the word 'ignorant' on this board - look for your own name in the pages that are returned =) I'm sure you will find it enlightening ;)
Hoo boy.
The fun never stops, around here.
:lulz:
Quote from: hunter s.durden on April 21, 2008, 01:52:38 PM
My bad, it's early.
Even though I'm mad that I'm awake, I'm strangely docile. Let the rage build for a few hours...
:|
TGRR,
Goes to bed angry, and wakes up angrier.
Quote from: Cain on April 21, 2008, 03:56:23 PM
Interesting point: Hitler was not in fact a vegetarian. It was a myth, created to cultivate an image of asceticism (he didn't drink or smoke either). His doctors tried to stop him from eating meat, to cure flatulence, but he frequently ate sausages and his favourite meal was stuffed pigeon, IIRC. There were periods of time he stopped eating meat for a while, but that was the exception, not the rule.
Still, ignore all that when trolling PETA members.
/agree - PETA should F-Off + die!
Quote from: SillyCybin on April 21, 2008, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on April 21, 2008, 01:45:26 PM
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 21, 2008, 09:57:44 AM
Hillarious and Intelligent remarks guys - those with brains really stand out in this crowd, or should I say mob?
C'mon now, don't turn into one of those guys, you seem decent.
WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!! :argh!:
don't let anyone see you being reasonable - eh!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 22, 2008, 12:59:24 AM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on April 21, 2008, 01:52:38 PM
My bad, it's early.
Even though I'm mad that I'm awake, I'm strangely docile. Let the rage build for a few hours...
:|
TGRR,
Goes to bed angry, and wakes up angrier.
Hey I'm angry at many things too.. but I try not to spread the anger to others, if i can help that.
I know its rather fashionable to "embrace hate" almost a knee-jerk reaction to "hell is a bad place". But IMO the whole heaven/hell thing is a little boring, and in the words of RAW:
"The reason for optimism lies in the biological fact that it keeps you happy and busy, whereas pessimism just leads to lying around and bitching. I'd rather keep happy and busy than lie around bitching, but I know this will not convince those who really like lying around and bitching. As Nietzsche said that optimism and good health always go together, and so do pessimism and morbidity, in the medical sense of the word."
Not that one should ignore pessimism IMO... just don't live there 90% of the time seems like a good idea =)
..bring on the personal attacks! The hate-mail, the name calling.. and all that other stuff - you love to hate me :lulz:
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 21, 2008, 08:34:14 PM
Heh, even then the health advantages are still pretty questionable, when a system evolves based on a particular sort of fuel consumption, changing the fuel without changing the system sounds like a recipe for SYSTEM BROKED
Yeah... kinda sounds like the same problem as a postmodernist feminist complaining when she commodifies herself and then gets raped eh :D
Quote from: Politician168023 on April 22, 2008, 09:34:07 AM
Hey I'm angry at many things too.. but I try not to spread the anger to others, if i can help that.
I know its rather fashionable to "embrace hate" almost a knee-jerk reaction to "hell is a bad place".
I was a hater before it was cool, shitstain.