As a surprise, Sjaantze picked up a copy of 'The Prankster and the Conspiracy" the biography of Kerry Thornley aka Ho Chi Zen aka Omar K. Ravenhurst. Herein are my thoughts:
First, its a great book. I thought it was well written and the material hooked me pretty quickly. The author did tons of research and interviews, documenting the inception and explosion of Discordianism from the Bowling Alley in the late 50's to Thornley's one and only IRC chat before he died. This is not a fluff piece either... the author claims not to be a 'card carrying Discordian' and there is no 'hero worship' in this... All of the good and amazing bits, along with the sad, pathetic and downright troubling bits are here. It also provides a view of how heavily Discordianism influenced the counterculture movement in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
Now to the actual content and my thoughts.
The book covers the founding of Discordianism, mixed liberally with the circumstances surrounding Kerry's life. For those who aren't aware, Kerry was in the navy with a guy named Lee Harvey Oswald (yep, THAT Lee Harvey Oswald). The experiences that they shared led Kerry to write a book titled 'The Idle Warriors' and its main character was based on Oswald. After the events in Dealey Plaza, Kerry became inextricably tied up in all sorts of issues surrounding the death of the president and the subsequent 'conspiracy theories'. While it probably wasn't the sole cause of paranoid delusions (or were they?), Kerry spent much of the rest of his life manically focused on that part of his life, convinced that 'they' were fucking with him. It may be that he was just crazy, but the book covers all of the odd synchronicity surrounding Kerry, Oswald, and Jim Garrison's almost maniacal pursuit of TEH CONSPIRACY. It even includes a guy that wore a wig and eyebrows, cut from a mohair carpet and glued to his head. If there was not a conspiracy, the Eris certianly had her hands in Thronley's life. Another thing I really liked was that the book doesn't try to polish Kerry as a human, including his rather troubling views on fucking anything and everything... including children and chairs.
The book also does a great job of covering several of the early Discordians, including Mal-2, Camden Benares, Bob Wilson, Lady L, Mama Witch, Dr. Bob and many others. Although it doesn't try to glorify the lives of any of them, it does provide a rather interesting view of these random spags, acting, well not all that differently than we random spags here. Funny how that works. It also seems to indicate that we were drawing the seriously werido crowd way back in the beginning... Mama Witch appears to been able to give AKK and IANAR a run for their money (she would have left Daruko, Wade and DK in the dust).
I think the author does a great job of showing that Kerry lived a life which was free in many ways, but in the end, he died a sick, crazy old man, with 15 cats, few friends and a chaotic legacy. The story was both inspiring and cautionary.
After all the shit had hit the fan, Omar said in a letter, "If I'd known it was all going to come true... I would have picked Venus."
Also, I found it quite interesting that Mal-2 began this silly religion as an Atheistic Joke. However, in the years that followed, Greg Hill (aka Mal-2) dropped his atheism due to his experiences with Eris. Some of the letters that are quoted in the book are simply stunning bits of philosophy and brilliant thinking.
I give it 5 stars, mostly because of the Law of Fives, but also because I think its a great read.
ITT a glorius plug
I fully intend to steal a copy.
QuoteAlso, I found it quite interesting that Mal-2 began this silly religion as an Atheistic Joke. However, in the years that followed, Greg Hill (aka Mal-2) dropped his atheism due to his experiences with Eris. Some of the letters that are quoted in the book are simply stunning bits of philosophy and brilliant thinking.
Let the
buyer believer beware.
QuoteAfter all the shit had hit the fan, Omar said in a letter, "If I'd known it was all going to come true... I would have picked Venus."
Too true.
I find it disturbing that Uncle BadTouch has anything in common with one of our founding fathers. :cry:
Welcome to Discordia, where there's a turd in every punchbowl.
Quote from: Nigel on April 10, 2009, 07:47:30 PM
I find it disturbing that Uncle BadTouch has anything in common with one of our founding fathers. :cry:
Well, actually I would say that Thornley was in a different situation... Uncle BadTouch promotes the
philosophy that age shouldn't be a 'legal' barrier to relations between two people. However, he has not, to my knowledge, done anything illegal. Thornley, on at least two occasions was interrupted by people and stopped from doing something illegal (or at least illegal now, I dunno what the law was back then).
His rationale appears to have been that everyone was a sexual being and should enjoy the pleasures of the flesh. I think this is a different mindset from a child predator, but one that is surely disturbing. From the book it seemed that Kerry didn't really care what he stuck it in, as long as it wasn't another guy (and yes, there is a picture of him fucking a chair). That of course doesn't make it OK, but it does seem to be a different sort of mental state that the one you see on Dateline NBC.
I'm not sure what to make of this, except perhaps an example of how "pedophilia" may be a label covering many different psychological issues. Some of which may result in the murder of children at one extreme, the abuse of children in general, and this almost Peter Pan like syndrome that simply doesn't differentiate between child and adult at the other extreme. I don't think that makes any of them OK, but it may mean that pedophilia is a symptom of a number of different mental states, rather than a diagnosis in and of itself.
EDIT: Also, I don't think those human failings should be the focus of a discussion about Thornley's life. The interesting things he did, far outweigh his personal faults (of which, I'm sure there were many).
The VERY disturbing incident can be read here -
http://books.google.com/books?id=tCxmamU5ZuUC&dq=Kerry+Thornley&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=y-7CPlROP5&sig=wIJ-qzhUHT99t2S3sRWRJe6LX1o&hl=en&ei=EazsSfmvApzItgeZwu2cBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA157,M1
Page 157
I could not find a second occasion? Care to point me to it?
I think if Kerry was the main writer of Principia and not by all accounts (at least later in life) a madman. This would prevent me from enjoying Pricipia Discordia in any way.
Quote from: parabolee on April 20, 2009, 06:23:31 PM
I think if Kerry was the main writer of Principia and not by all accounts (at least later in life) a madman. This would prevent me from enjoying Pricipia Discordia in any way.
Kerry was one of the writers of the PD. Later in life, he has some serious issues which could have been due to madness (paranoid schizophrenia, probably). However, to be fair, the issues in Kerry's later life may have been due to a number of different things, including drug abuse, serious psychological pressure during the Jim Garrison investigations or experimentation by the US Military on his brain while he was in. According to the biography, his unit was one that the US government had done MK-Ultra experiments on. Also, note that in the last hospital stays, he got some treatment for schizophrenia and responded quite well to it. So perhaps, if psychology medicine had been further along, and available to someone like Kerry in the 80's, he would have been in much better shape, mentally. Of course, it also seems possible (unlikely but possible) that a lot of his schizophrenia was based on reality. There are certainly some very strange coincidences related to the 'conspiracy' surrounding him. Most of his friends felt he had lost it, but also probably had a reason for losing it.
The number of authors that have serious psychological issues appear to be quite high. Why would that necessarily stop you from enjoying their work? Besides, if anything, its a good reminder that Omar and Mal-2 were no different, better or more enlightened than any other monkeys on this planet. They had human faults and human failures just like most of us. Even if Kerry died a crazy old homeless man... I think he wrote some brilliant stuff, just like many other madmen.
I'd say that the life of Thornley and Hill make a startling counterexample to that of RAW, Leary and Benares. They were all movers and shakers in the counterculture movement. They all had similar ideas about government, religion and the possibilities of the human race. The biggest difference between them was their attitude. Mal and Omar tended to be more pessimistic about life/the future etc, RAW and Leary tended to be extreme optimists and Benares appears to have simply focused on running until he fell over.
Kerry died alone and homeless.
Mal-2 died alone, a middle management banker and alcoholic.
Leary died surrounded by people who felt he had changed their life.
RAW died surrounded by people who felt he had changed their life.
Benares died, living a wild and outlandish life, apparently quite pleased with the way things had gone.
Now that doesn't necessarily mean anything, it could just be pattern matching...
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 20, 2009, 06:55:09 PM
The number of authors that have serious psychological issues appear to be quite high. Why would that necessarily stop you from enjoying their work?
It's not his possible madness that would prevent me from enjoying his work. His mental problems in fact help make it easier to enjoy his work in light of the very disturbing account of his attempt to sexually molest an 8 year old girl.
Crowley was most likely insane and at the end of his life so was Nietzsche. Both writers I greatly admire. But they also didn't try to get it on with a child.
Quote from: parabolee on April 20, 2009, 07:02:33 PM
the very disturbing account of his attempt to sexually molest an 8 year old girl.
can I get a citation on that?
Quote from: parabolee on April 20, 2009, 07:02:33 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 20, 2009, 06:55:09 PM
The number of authors that have serious psychological issues appear to be quite high. Why would that necessarily stop you from enjoying their work?
It's not his possible madness that would prevent me from enjoying his work. His mental problems in fact help make it easier to enjoy his work in light of the very disturbing account of his attempt to sexually molest an 8 year old girl.
Crowley was most likely insane and at the end of his life so was Nietzsche. Both writers I greatly admire. But they also didn't try to get it on with a child.
That you know of...
Most humans do something utterly horrific in their life at some point. The question is, do you use their worst moment to be that which defines them?
Quote from: Cramulus on April 20, 2009, 07:05:47 PM
Quote from: parabolee on April 20, 2009, 07:02:33 PM
the very disturbing account of his attempt to sexually molest an 8 year old girl.
can I get a citation on that?
See the link in the above post:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tCxmamU5ZuUC&dq=Kerry+Thornley&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=y-7CPlROP5&sig=wIJ-qzhUHT99t2S3sRWRJe6LX1o&hl=en&ei=EazsSfmvApzItgeZwu2cBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA157,M1
EDIT: I also had thought I read two incidents, but as the book quote shows... there was only the one incident that anyone knows of.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 20, 2009, 07:06:05 PM
That you know of...
Most humans do something utterly horrific in their life at some point. The question is, do you use their worst moment to be that which defines them?
True, and I try not to use the worst moment of anyone's life to define them. I usually draw the line at child molestation though.
But I think had he been the main writer and creator of Principia Discordia as opposed to Mal-2. I would find it very difficult to enjoy such a wonderful peice of work because of this revelation. A shame to be sure.
Quote from: parabolee on April 20, 2009, 07:10:36 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 20, 2009, 07:06:05 PM
That you know of...
Most humans do something utterly horrific in their life at some point. The question is, do you use their worst moment to be that which defines them?
True, and I try not to use the worst moment of anyone's life to define them. I usually draw the line at child molestation though.
But I think had he been the main writer and creator of Principia Discordia as opposed to Mal-2. I would find it very difficult to enjoy such a wonderful peice of work because of this revelation. A shame to be sure.
Well, neither of them were the main creator, as the PD is a collection of many different people... Thornley and Hill were the ones first inspired to start it and were very vocal in promoting it, but the book itself has many different authors (later editions have even more).
However, your personal judgments are yours to make. Since the PD has nothing to do with Child Molestation, and since Thornley's incident didn't happen until years after the PD had been written, I'm not sure that I agree with your position...
but hey, "To each their own" said the old lady as she kissed the cow.... :transmet:
*shrug* crazy people occasionally do crazy things. That's why we think they're insane.
But I second what Rat said - the PD doesn't have any of that vibe in it, except for a touch of the free-love vibe. (which is kind of subtle) I only know of one person who read the PD and interpreted it as an excuse to explore free love with minors. So I think the worth of the PD shouldn't be measured against Kerry's life.
I mean frankly, the PD could have been written by a robot, or Bizarro Hitler, and it wouldn't change how I felt about it.
I mean, Jefferson fucked his slaves, that doesn't make him a bad president.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 20, 2009, 07:20:28 PM
So I think the worth of the PD shouldn't be measured against Kerry's life.
Agreed. I also don't think Kerry's life should be measured by one bad incident.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 20, 2009, 07:15:22 PM
Well, neither of them were the main creator, as the PD is a collection of many different people... Thornley and Hill were the ones first inspired to start it and were very vocal in promoting it, but the book itself has many different authors (later editions have even more).
However, your personal judgments are yours to make. Since the PD has nothing to do with Child Molestation, and since Thornley's incident didn't happen until years after the PD had been written, I'm not sure that I agree with your position...
but hey, "To each their own" said the old lady as she kissed the cow.... :transmet:
I think you misunderstand my position. Which to be clear is thus -
I was shocked and disturbed to discover this revelation. I was very disappointed and saddened to discover this about someone I admired. However due to his physiological decline in these later years I am happy to be able to consider the man that did this, not the same great man that is responsible for the work I admire.
However I am relieved that the Principia's existence is not owed only to this man because of this event, as it would interfere with my enjoyment of the work.
Your posts makes it sound like you believe my position is that I have chosen to abandon my love of Principia due to this. Which is not the case at all. It is also not the case that I have chosen to judge Kerry's entire life and work due to this one event. I do not understand why you are of the opinion that this is my opinion :)
I don't know if "crazy" cuts it in this situation. The fact that he closed and locked the door indicates to me that he very much knew what he was doing was considered wrong by most people.
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 20, 2009, 09:38:36 PM
I don't know if "crazy" cuts it in this situation. The fact that he closed and locked the door indicates to me that he very much knew what he was doing was considered wrong by most people.
Well you can be aware that what you are ding is wrong but still not of your right mind. That is to say, quite possibly this was no longer the same man that contributed to PD.
But maybe that is wishful thinking.
From what I've been able to discern, his input seems minimal. What he did write is attributed to him, and it amounts mostly to little stanzas written in the style of the Bible. It would seem that Mal2 wrote the lion's share.
My guess is that he was both insane AND knew that what he was doing was wrong.
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 20, 2009, 09:50:59 PM
From what I've been able to discern, his input seems minimal. What he did write is attributed to him, and it amounts mostly to little stanzas written in the style of the Bible. It would seem that Mal2 wrote the lion's share.
how can you tell who wrote which sections?
Quote from: Cramulus on April 20, 2009, 09:52:40 PM
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 20, 2009, 09:50:59 PM
From what I've been able to discern, his input seems minimal. What he did write is attributed to him, and it amounts mostly to little stanzas written in the style of the Bible. It would seem that Mal2 wrote the lion's share.
how can you tell who wrote which sections?
He is quoted in many places as stating that the Principia Discordia was delivered to his (Mal's) pineal gland from Eris. And, a lot of parts are attributed to Omar or the Purple Sage, so I think its safe to assume that Mal wrote most of the PD, and attributed Kerry when it was appropriate.
I'm not saying there isn't a big chance I'm wrong, that's just my take on it.
Well according to the interview with Mal-2 in the Steve Jackson edition, Kerry would read then rewrite some of Mal-2's work and then Mal-2 would re-write it again before he was happy with it. And Kerry contributed the parts attributed to him of course.
While that does not seem "minimal". It is clearly a great deal less than Mal-2, who should be considered the main writer/creator/inspiration of PD. At least that is how Mal-2 sees it. Or claims to see it in the alleged interview :-D
Quote from: parabolee on April 20, 2009, 07:24:38 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 20, 2009, 07:15:22 PM
Well, neither of them were the main creator, as the PD is a collection of many different people... Thornley and Hill were the ones first inspired to start it and were very vocal in promoting it, but the book itself has many different authors (later editions have even more).
However, your personal judgments are yours to make. Since the PD has nothing to do with Child Molestation, and since Thornley's incident didn't happen until years after the PD had been written, I'm not sure that I agree with your position...
but hey, "To each their own" said the old lady as she kissed the cow.... :transmet:
I think you misunderstand my position. Which to be clear is thus -
I was shocked and disturbed to discover this revelation. I was very disappointed and saddened to discover this about someone I admired. However due to his physiological decline in these later years I am happy to be able to consider the man that did this, not the same great man that is responsible for the work I admire.
However I am relieved that the Principia's existence is not owed only to this man because of this event, as it would interfere with my enjoyment of the work.
Your posts makes it sound like you believe my position is that I have chosen to abandon my love of Principia due to this. Which is not the case at all. It is also not the case that I have chosen to judge Kerry's entire life and work due to this one event. I do not understand why you are of the opinion that this is my opinion :)
That is how I read your posts, so I'm glad that you and I seem to be on the same page ;-)
It was surprising to me as well... though (as I said in the earlier post) it seems to me that Thornley's view of sex was different that the view of what we consider a sexual predator. That is, his view of sex was that everyone should enjoy it and he didn't seem to consider a child, chair, grandmother, cow, etc to be any different. So while that was a bit of a shock, it does seem very different that someone looking to jump a kid... Thornley just seemed to be looking to jump anything. (Not OK, but it seems like a very different mental state).
All in all, I really enjoyed the book precisely because it shows Kerry and Greg in all their human fallibility. That Mal-2 shutdown his pineal gland, because a greyest of greyface and and spent the last decades of his life exploring the bottom of a bottle rather than the infinite lands of Limbo... all because of a woman (damn wominz!!!) or that Kerry spent time living in a storm drain, divorced his wife because he couldn't deal with the responsibilities of being a husband and father... those, for me, make the message of the PD all the more chilling.
As much as these two ripped up their BiP, as handily as they escaped the Prison of mundane existence, in the end, they were still just as trapped in other ways, in other prisons. In Kerry's case, the prison was never the greyfaced hunchbraind one of normalcy... but he really became a sad and pathetic individual based on the accounts given by his closest friends. Between being convinced that everyone was a CIA plant (including RAW), to thinking that he really MUST HAVE helped kill JFK, to wandering homeless from renovated chicken coop to furnace room...
As free as they were, they still died in prisons.
For me, that was a very powerful message.
Rat, have you read the 'Dreadlock Recollections'? JohnnyBrainwash and I actually found a definition for 'Catma' in there. Might be a good contrast to TP&TC. I haven't read it all the way through myself.
http://www.ovo127.com/zines/ovo017.html
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 20, 2009, 09:38:36 PM
I don't know if "crazy" cuts it in this situation. The fact that he closed and locked the door indicates to me that he very much knew what he was doing was considered wrong by most people.
Crazy in that sense wouldnt cut it in a
courtroom but it seems to be a not far-off label, standard of behavior many people think is unacceptable.
Quote from: Telarus on April 20, 2009, 11:51:07 PM
Rat, have you read the 'Dreadlock Recollections'? JohnnyBrainwash and I actually found a definition for 'Catma' in there. Might be a good contrast to TP&TC. I haven't read it all the way through myself.
http://www.ovo127.com/zines/ovo017.html
Thanks for the link, looks to be a very interesting book. I had not known of it's existence.
Although I could find no reference to any opinion or incident of sex with an under-age people in this book. Also the only reference to "catma" I found was this -
"In 1964, living in Shirlington, Virginia, and corresponding with Greg Hill, I suggested that our satirical religion, the Discordian Society, which Greg and I had originated in California before going to New Orleans, needed a dogma – or , as we called it, a catma. Brother-in-law's comment was in the back of my mind when I therefore determined that it should be the Law of Fives: Everything happens in fives – or can in some other way be connected with the number five. Slim Brooks was our fourth convert to the Discordian Society and, as might be anticipated, Brother-in-law was the fifth person to join that facetious cult devoted to the Greek goddess of confusion, Eris – known to the Romans as Discordia. "This quote also suggests more involvement in the creation on Discordianism than those above (including myself) had thought (hoped?). He was responsible for the rule of fives theory by his claim anyway.
Although it still seems that Mal-2 is responsible for putting together the PD along with most of it's content.
Ah, you tried a word search, eh? In this instance, he spells it "Katma":
p215
QuoteBrunswick, the bowling alley in which Greg and I first disorganized the Discordian Society, is mentioned in the Oracles of Nostradamus, which I only discovered recently. So that is an authentic miracle – especially since it says something about chaos emerging from Brunswick! All bowling alleys are sacred to Discordians – since most of them have Brunswick pin setting equipment. A synchronistic coincidence that proves a dogma like that is called a Katma – a combination of karma and dogma. Actually I'm not a reincarnation of Edgar Cayce, no matter what they say.
I'm a reincarnation of Jean Dixon.
Artwork by my friend POPJellyfish:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b380/popjellyfish/MoBB-Ganeshsm.jpg?t=1222097080)
Ah, good job. Nice find!
QuoteThis quote also suggests more involvement in the creation on Discordianism than those above (including myself) had thought (hoped?). He was responsible for the rule of fives theory by his claim anyway.
Omar and Mal-2 were both extremely involved in the philosophy, theories, nonsense, silliness and assorted bullshit within the PD and across the Discordian society in general. At one point, keep in mind, Discordians were pretty active and lots and lots of stuff was happening. It was a lot like PD.com actually, except instead of digital posting, there were letters and postcards being sent from this group to those groups etc.
Saying that Kerry Thornley was involved in the founding of the Discordian society is like saying Cramulus was involved in the founding of Intermittens. With their dynamic personalities and drive, its possible that neither would have taken off... but that doesn't mean that either is an endorsement of the failings of the individual or even in line with all of their philosophical views.
I would be surprised if none of the men who helped write the US Constitution had fondled a young person... yet that doesn't really make the Constitution a useless piece of trash. We had GWB for that.
LOL, agreed