http://www.nbcnews.com/business/not-enough-graduate-college-now-theres-exit-exam-8C11006596
QuoteBOSTON -- Seniors returning to classes at dozens of U.S. colleges and universities have one more hurdle to prepare for this school year: a new standardized test for graduating students intended to give prospective employers a measure of their abilities.
Called Collegiate Learning Assessment Plus (CLA+), the test aims to provide a more objective way to compare the intellectual achievements of graduates of different schools.
"It's another set of information that employers can use to review the applicant," said Robert Keeley, director of assessment services at the Council for Aid to Education, the New York-based nonprofit that has developed the test. "We're looking to equip students to share their scores more readily than they have in the past."
About 200 colleges and universities, including small liberal arts colleges Ursuline College of Pepper Pike, Ohio, and Stonehill College of Easton, Mass. as well as some of the California and Texas state university systems, have signed up to give the CLA+ tests at the end of the academic year now getting underway.
The test will measure analysis, problem solving, writing, quantitative reasoning and reading, the Council for Aid to Education said.
It could serve a similar role to the admission exams that graduate schools rely on as a standard evaluation for their applicants.
(more hilarity at link)
So, we've now FUCKED K-12 with standardized testing successfully, it's time to apply the process to universities.
Just for reference:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/schools/testing/companies.html
QuoteWhen Congress increased this year's budget for the Department of Education by $11 billion, it set aside $400 million to help states develop and administer the tests that the No Child Left Behind Act mandated for children in grades 3 through 8. Among the likely benefactors of the extra funds were the four companies that dominate the testing market -- three test publishers and one scoring firm.
Those four companies are Harcourt Educational Measurement, CTB McGraw-Hill, Riverside Publishing (a Houghton Mifflin company), and NCS Pearson. According to an October 2001 report in the industry newsletter Educational Marketer, Harcourt, CTB McGraw-Hill, and Riverside Publishing write 96 percent of the exams administered at the state level. NCS Pearson, meanwhile, is the leading scorer of standardized tests.
Even without the impetus of the No Child Left Behind Act, testing is a burgeoning industry. The National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy at Boston College compiled data from The Bowker Annual, a compendium of the dollar-volume in test sales each year, and reported that while test sales in 1955 were $7 million (adjusted to 1998 dollars), that figure was $263 million in 1997, an increase of more than 3,000 percent. Today, press reports put the value of the testing market anywhere from $400 million to $700 million.
It's likely that other companies will enter the testing market. Educational Testing Service (ETS), which until recently had little to do with high-stakes testing and was best known for its administration of the SAT college-entrance exam, won a three-year, $50 million contract in October 2001 to develop and score California's high-school exit exam, beating out other bidders such as Harcourt and NCS Pearson.
Quote
It could serve a similar role to the admission exams that graduate schools rely on as a standard evaluation for their applicants.
No. Just, no. The GRE is a reactive, SAT-like exam that tests cognitive abilities in mathematics, logic, reasoning, vocabulary, and writing, and is used as one of many factors that graduate schools take into account in their applications. For most places (i.e. the universities I am doing my PhD at and did my Masters at) this is the lowest thing on the list of considerations; as long as you pass the benchmark set by the graduate school, usually a reasonable one, no one cares. Far more important are your research interests, your work ethic, your funding base, specialized knowledge and special skills. This is, also noting, an /ADMISSION/ process, and completely based on whether you want to go to grad school. Most people will never take it, because most people don't intend to attend.
What they are proposing is a final, mandatory, standardized commencement exam for /employers/, serving a /completely different role/ than the GRE. So, no. The author doesn't understand in the least what the hell he is talking about.
The author reminds me a lot of Armstrong Williams.
Remember him?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Williams
QuoteArmstrong Williams (born February 5, 1959) is an American political commentator, author of a conservative newspaper column, and host of a daily radio show and a nationally syndicated TV program, called The Right Side with Armstrong Williams. During the early years of the George W. Bush administration, he received $241,000 from the Department of Education to promote the No Child Left Behind initiative; exposure of these payments ultimately lead to the cancellation of his syndicated column with Tribune Media Services.
Makes you wonder if the author benefitted from Harcourt or something.
I just hired PLC/microprocessor-control programmer fresh out of school. I skimmed over his grades, what I was really interested in was his capstone project, which involved robotics. He nailed that, grade-wise, and provided his notes from the project, which gave me an insight into how he problem-solves.
That's valuable. This shit? Just another way for Harcourt to turn a buck.
Wouldn't surprise me. US journalism is basically PR these days.
Capstone projects are awesome.
Standardized testing at the end of college?? That makes NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 12:35:55 AM
Capstone projects are awesome.
Standardized testing at the end of college?? That makes NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL.
Unless you happen to produce those tests as a product.
Then it makes perfect sense.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 12:38:16 AM
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 12:35:55 AM
Capstone projects are awesome.
Standardized testing at the end of college?? That makes NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL.
Unless you happen to produce those tests as a product.
Then it makes perfect sense.
Yep.
FUCKED UP.
Quote from: Kai on August 27, 2013, 12:16:38 AM
Wouldn't surprise me. US journalism is basically PR these days.
Kai, I think I've fixed that for you now.
Quote from: Junkenstein on August 27, 2013, 09:50:12 AM
Quote from: Kai on August 27, 2013, 12:16:38 AM
Wouldn't surprise me. US journalism is basically PR these days.
Kai, I think I've fixed that for you now.
Well, you've got the Guardian. I mean, if thugs are running in and smashing computers, they must be doing SOMETHING right.
:lulz: I won't tell you which of the companies named in this thread I work for. I'm definitely not an apologist for our work, but I gotta get paid, yo.
We haven't heard much about the CLA+ in my division (which is mostly focused on deforming the K-12 curriculum). But we do publish college level books, so I'm sure some divisions are drooooling.
From the wall street journal: "The test is part of a movement to find new ways to assess the skills of graduates. Employers say grades can be misleading and that they have grown skeptical of college credentials."
Basically, the publishers are spinning this as a way that they are just meeting employer demands. Employers don't really care about GPA, so this smells like an opportunity.
Quote from: Cramulus on August 27, 2013, 03:20:34 PM
:lulz: I won't tell you which of the companies named in this thread I work for. I'm definitely not an apologist for our work, but I gotta get paid, yo.
Is it not written, "Let "Bob" into your wallet"?
This is also another way for corporate managers and HR departments to slash their budgets and shirk responsibility.
"Fuck interviews; run their scores through the machine, pick the top five."
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 27, 2013, 04:10:24 PM
This is also another way for corporate managers and HR departments to slash their budgets and shirk responsibility.
"Fuck interviews; run their scores through the machine, pick the top five."
Yeah, we just got a directive about that (though more just GPA than a test).
We're NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT.
My company sometimes finds an option that MAKES SENSE, then goes ahead and does it anyway.
WTF is this shit?
I am NOT taking a test to graduate.
Quote from: Suu on August 27, 2013, 05:30:14 PM
WTF is this shit?
I am NOT taking a test to graduate.
Bet you will.
It seems to me that if they are going to base everything on tests we should be able to test out of college. (I know I would finally get my BS if they let me do that)
If we're just going by testing it seems redundant to having 16 years of school, 12 of which are pretty much just 'jail for children because we don't know where else to put you'.
Quote from: Suu on August 27, 2013, 05:30:14 PM
WTF is this shit?
I am NOT taking a test to graduate.
my bet:
You probably won't take it to graduate.
It may be that college professors, who rely less on federal budget than K-12 teachers, will put up with less teach-to-the-test bullshit, and this will never take off.
It may be that you're job hunting months later, and they will ask you for your CLA+ scores, and you will enter "n/a" and you may or may not hear back.
The companies who score the CLA and publish the prep books/courses will set up websites which compare colleges based on their average graduate's CLA scores. They will send pamphlets and "how to choose a college" guides, which include CLA comparisons, to high school resource centers.
and gradually, it will become a thing
Quote from: McGrupp on August 27, 2013, 05:33:29 PM
It seems to me that if they are going to base everything on tests we should be able to test out of college. (I know I would finally get my BS if they let me do that)
Yep. Years down the road, if the CLA is adopted and becomes more relevant than GPA, then it will also be more relevant than a bachelor's degree. Kids will take CLA prep courses and ace the damn thing through diligent cramming.
Already, there are so many ways to get a cheap college degree (like from University of Phoenix and other online colleges), employers are taking a second look at how much a college degree is really worth. I can see why some employers would want a more reliable indicator of achievement.
And let's be honest - lots of college degrees do not prepare you to enter the workforce outside of your narrow specialization. Most people learn their job skills on the job, not in college. So why do I have a bachelor's in psych again? I wouldn't trade my college education for the world, but frankly, I had the skills to do my current job basically right after high school. College taught me discipline, but the actual skills I use in the office were learned on the job.
So, as a brief devil's advocate position: for a lot of kids, taking a CLA prep course and skipping college will be the right choice. You get into the workforce, but you don't get saddled with a half lifetime of student loan debt.
Merely taking a CLA course and scoring well will not cut it for a lot of industries. Like, if you're going into education, obviously a CLA will be a poor substitute for an actual certificate. But only 27 percent of college grads have a job related to their major. When you major in Latin and then go into Real Estate, you gotta wonder if there is a better way.
Quote from: Cramulus on August 27, 2013, 06:05:44 PM
Already, there are so many ways to get a cheap college degree (like from University of Phoenix and other online colleges), employers are taking a second look at how much a college degree is really worth. I can see why some employers would want a more reliable indicator of achievement.
Speaking as an employer, there is already an indicator. The capstone. That's really all I look at.
Question: My capstone has nothing whatsoever to do with my current job. I really don't know what would happen if, in an interview for a finance job, they asked me for it and I handed the woman a CD with skronky indie rock on it.
URI is not one of the schools that administer it.
If employers actually ask for this, they're going to be weeding out a lot of older, and potentially better educated candidates. Like it was said, I don't think professors are going to be down with this.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 06:08:09 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on August 27, 2013, 06:05:44 PM
Already, there are so many ways to get a cheap college degree (like from University of Phoenix and other online colleges), employers are taking a second look at how much a college degree is really worth. I can see why some employers would want a more reliable indicator of achievement.
Speaking as an employer, there is already an indicator. The capstone. That's really all I look at.
Question - As an employer, who would you be more likely to hire:
A- Graduate with relevant Capstone
B- Non Graduate with approximately the same length of time as it takes to gain the qualifacation employed in a relevant position.
I ask because I've always leant towards demonstrations of actual skill and experience more frequently than a relevant qualification. It's usual cost more in terms of wages but I seem to deal with less fuckups(people and events) actually in the workplace. Better to hire the guy who's built a couple of walls rather than the guy with a bit of paper in wall building kind of thing. There seems to be a push in the UK for more skill based qualifications but I've not dealt with that much yet. I'm expecting most of them to be a joke at best and useless at worst.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 27, 2013, 06:15:59 PM
Question: My capstone has nothing whatsoever to do with my current job. I really don't know what would happen if, in an interview for a finance job, they asked me for it and I handed the woman a CD with skronky indie rock on it.
Well, hopefully you'd offer more than the CD. You'd offer the notes dealing with how you organized things, how you dealt with technical problems, etc.
That's the really important part, IMO.
Quote from: Junkenstein on August 27, 2013, 06:49:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 06:08:09 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on August 27, 2013, 06:05:44 PM
Already, there are so many ways to get a cheap college degree (like from University of Phoenix and other online colleges), employers are taking a second look at how much a college degree is really worth. I can see why some employers would want a more reliable indicator of achievement.
Speaking as an employer, there is already an indicator. The capstone. That's really all I look at.
Question - As an employer, who would you be more likely to hire:
A- Graduate with relevant Capstone
B- Non Graduate with approximately the same length of time as it takes to gain the qualifacation employed in a relevant position.
I ask because I've always leant towards demonstrations of actual skill and experience more frequently than a relevant qualification. It's usual cost more in terms of wages but I seem to deal with less fuckups(people and events) actually in the workplace. Better to hire the guy who's built a couple of walls rather than the guy with a bit of paper in wall building kind of thing. There seems to be a push in the UK for more skill based qualifications but I've not dealt with that much yet. I'm expecting most of them to be a joke at best and useless at worst.
Given the choice, I always go with experience. Thing is, Intel just opened a facility in Arizona, and scarfed up every single experienced PLC geek. So I needed one straight out of school.
So the capstone became the most important part of the hiring process.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 06:54:39 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 27, 2013, 06:15:59 PM
Question: My capstone has nothing whatsoever to do with my current job. I really don't know what would happen if, in an interview for a finance job, they asked me for it and I handed the woman a CD with skronky indie rock on it.
Well, hopefully you'd offer more than the CD. You'd offer the notes dealing with how you organized things, how you dealt with technical problems, etc.
That's the really important part, IMO.
Also, I realize I didn't actually ask a question. I'll see myself out.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 27, 2013, 07:14:36 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 06:54:39 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 27, 2013, 06:15:59 PM
Question: My capstone has nothing whatsoever to do with my current job. I really don't know what would happen if, in an interview for a finance job, they asked me for it and I handed the woman a CD with skronky indie rock on it.
Well, hopefully you'd offer more than the CD. You'd offer the notes dealing with how you organized things, how you dealt with technical problems, etc.
That's the really important part, IMO.
Also, I realize I didn't actually ask a question. I'll see myself out.
In this instance, something like references from professors and previous employers/intern coordinators would be helpful too. Not everyone gets a job in their fields.
I did not do that well on my undergrad capstone. I didn't fail, but I got a high C/low B. This is mostly my own fault due to poor topic choice, and I still got good feedback on it. However, my GPA over all is very high, and I have excellent recommendations. This is also why I need to rock my master's thesis.
My capstone got me my first job in this field.