...here are some thoughts. Perhaps they can even be considered a rough sort of guideline for whether or not your thread is going to be a productive one.
It's like this: when Nigel or Pixie starts a dialogue about feminism stuff, I feel like I almost always learn something, and that I am being talked to like a human being who is expected to have the moral fortitude to examine my own actions AND to speak up or act when confronted with the actions of others that perpetuate the problem. When Garbo or SP talks about it, I feel like not only am I being talked to like I'm just some rapist-in-waiting, but that I'm being preached at by a TRUE BELIEVER and those, regardless of their cause, automatically push the "OK, time to be a difficult assclown until this Uniform shuts up and goes away" button. So yeah, I perfectly understand the point about men having this weird entitlement issue about deserving a woman's attention for no other reason than having visited their own unsolicited attention on a woman and I think it's creepy and obnoxious and that changing that attitude would maybe go a long way towards preventing eventual more serious aggressive behavior. I understand most (but probably not all) of the points that are raised in the feminism-related threads. And I agree with alot of it at a fundamental level. But no power in the universe can make me want to continue the dialogue in the face of the above-mentioned behavior. But hey, it's not like 50% of the fucking world's population are men, right? So why bother acting in a manner that makes them feel included and like part of the solution?
I don't find Garbo to be deliberately antagonistic, just easily frustrated when people aren't understanding what she's saying.
Of course, the proper thing to do at that point is examine WHY the ideas aren't going through, but that's hard to step back and do when your beliefs seem to be getting poked.
I do agree, though, that there's a uniform forming around this topic, to some degree.
Deliberate or not, her frame of reference on the subject seems to be rooted in a rather extreme view of things. But I'm not interested in psychoanalyzing anyone, I'm just using it as an example of what I'm talking about.
I think it really sucks when real conversation and a drive toward understanding and unity get lost in antagonism and personality clashes. It also bums me out, although it's natural, when only the most extreme positions in a debate get a response, and the reasonable ones are passed over without comment.
We already talked about this privately, but I should probably say it out here too: I find that I feel like my arguments get lumped in with theirs, as if they represent my perspective, and then it's like I'm on their side vs. the other side, which is not a productive or particularly accurate description of my position.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 07, 2012, 04:57:52 PM
We already talked about this privately, but I should probably say it out here too: I find that I feel like my arguments get lumped in with theirs, as if they represent my perspective, and then it's like I'm on their side vs. the other side, which is not a productive or particularly accurate description of my position.
Not with me. I don't tend to lump anyone together in these things. You have a reasoned approach that leads to excessive NIGELING, and that hurts my butt. Garbo has a lot of good ideas, but gets frustrated easily. Pixie says some awesome shit, but she's still finding her way around the subject. Signora Paesor is looking for a fight. ECH isn't going to take anyone's shit, Vex says some good stuff, but can't seem to help antagonistic "jokes". Me, I'm just a befuddled biped who limps along trying to keep up.
I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.
I'm sorry you feel like I'm talking to you that way, ECH. It's not intentional and I'm wondering how specifically I'm coming across that way. I know I tend to get snappish when I feel like people aren't listening, but I didn't think anything I said could come across that way.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 07, 2012, 04:43:15 PM
Deliberate or not, her frame of reference on the subject seems to be rooted in a rather extreme view of things. But I'm not interested in psychoanalyzing anyone, I'm just using it as an example of what I'm talking about.
Explain? Because I'm not (unsurprisingly) seeing it.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 07, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.
This.
FWIW, I'm learning a lot from these threads but at some points it gets gets difficult wading through the noise to get to the good stuff. I'm not bitching about it as I understand the nature of the place but on a practical level, it can be challenging. And like, I find myself reading through a lot of the derails hoping at some point it'll become valuable...as it has a couple of times...but then an hour goes by and I think, "what's the point?"
Roger, I notice you will objectively outline your perspective on a derail from time to time and I think that helps pull the conversation back to a constructive progression...and i appreciate that. I'll end up giving up on a thread, skipping forward to a post like that and then continue on.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 07, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.
I'm not seeing "sides". I'm seeing "poor communication", as everyone shouts past each other. This is caused by people reading what they EXPECT the other person to say, rather than what the other person actually said.
And that is indeed a problem.
I too am learning a lot from the threads in question, though I have largely refrained from commenting in them. Having stated that, I agree with ECH's opening post 100%.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 07, 2012, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 07, 2012, 04:57:52 PM
We already talked about this privately, but I should probably say it out here too: I find that I feel like my arguments get lumped in with theirs, as if they represent my perspective, and then it's like I'm on their side vs. the other side, which is not a productive or particularly accurate description of my position.
Not with me. I don't tend to lump anyone together in these things. You have a reasoned approach that leads to excessive NIGELING, and that hurts my butt. Garbo has a lot of good ideas, but gets frustrated easily. Pixie says some awesome shit, but she's still finding her way around the subject. Signora Paesor is looking for a fight. ECH isn't going to take anyone's shit, Vex says some good stuff, but can't seem to help antagonistic "jokes". Me, I'm just a befuddled biped who limps along trying to keep up.
:lulz: You do ok.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 07, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.
Yes. Well, I have noticed a definite emergence of a tendency for people to act as if there are "sides", and one of the hallmarks of that is quoting one person's post but actually arguing against something someone else entirely said. When we get to the point where we're all interchangeable, there's no point in continuing.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 07, 2012, 05:40:05 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 07, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.
Yes. Well, I have noticed a definite emergence of a tendency for people to act as if there are "sides", and one of the hallmarks of that is quoting one person's post but actually arguing against something someone else entirely said. When we get to the point where we're all interchangeable, there's no point in continuing.
The tragedy from my perspective is that nobody at PD would be considered
antifeminism from any reasonable standpoint, but sometimes the arguments reach the kind of fevered pitch that would normally only be appropriate between a person who supports feminism and a person who supports the patriarchy outright. There are always going to be differences in opinion and approach, because there are differences in experience and understanding. We should pride ourselves on our ability to bridge those gaps in a meaningful way, not our ability to expound upon them at great length.
For my part, I'm staying away from the Feminism Per Se discussion, because I made a fool of myself typing a lot of words from a place of misunderstanding and crude assumption before, and I need to learn a lot more about the subject before I pretend to have anything like a "position" on the matter. And I'll learn a lot more by listening than by firing a barrage of my own ideas at people who already have a hard enough time being heard.
For the record I don't think anyone's trying to turn PD into a forum about feminism any more than it is a forum about politics or the humanities. Feminism is a recurring theme lately, but it isn't a transformative theme. Maybe Feminism is the next subject PD is working on. It snuck up like the BIP did, after all, and I think an entire class of people who are still treated as second class citizens in many ways is as good a subject for this board to work out as any of the other subjects we work out. That it arouses almost violent reactions among us is a good thing, I think, as long as we all remember nobody is fighting for The Other Side, we're just fighting to understand each other.
I just wonder why there are so many threads about it I the general forum instead of tfys or it's own subforum.
Probably because most people look at the Beautiful Cock first, and then go to other subforums.
I see, so people will suddenly lose interest in this topic of it is on another catagory.
Not necessarily, it's more of a default.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2012, 07:06:53 PM
Not necessarily, it's more of a default.
It's a general forum though with five to ten threads on the same topic constantly rising to the top.
Quote from: Faust on September 07, 2012, 07:05:25 PM
I see, so people will suddenly lose interest in this topic of it is on another catagory.
I stopped using OKM because OKM was originally created as a ghetto to get the rants out of the way in AT, because they were interfering with the cookies and pie stabbity stabbity tequila threads.
If I had my way, there would be 5 boards. PD, AT, TYFS, cooking, and meta. In fact, I'd probably make PD a subforum of AT.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 07, 2012, 07:09:34 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 07, 2012, 07:05:25 PM
I see, so people will suddenly lose interest in this topic of it is on another catagory.
I stopped using OKM because OKM was originally created as a ghetto to get the rants out of the way in AT, because they were interfering with the cookies and pie stabbity stabbity tequila threads.
If I had my way, there would be 5 boards. PD, AT, TYFS, cooking, and meta. In fact, I'd probably make PD a subforum of AT.
this is good. i support this. altho, if we're just throwing ideas out there i would say
AT
PD
OMF
THIS WEEK'S DRAMA LLAMA
COOKING
TFYS
OMF
PROJECT BOARD
META
REASONS WHY VEX IS A GOD
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 07, 2012, 07:09:34 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 07, 2012, 07:05:25 PM
I see, so people will suddenly lose interest in this topic of it is on another catagory.
I stopped using OKM because OKM was originally created as a ghetto to get the rants out of the way in AT, because they were interfering with the cookies and pie stabbity stabbity tequila threads.
If I had my way, there would be 5 boards. PD, AT, TYFS, cooking, and meta. In fact, I'd probably make PD a subforum of AT.
There's forums that Barely get used any more( rpg ghetto I'm looking at you. )
Quote from: vexThe tragedy from my perspective is that nobody at PD would be considered antifeminism from any reasonable standpoint, but sometimes the arguments reach the kind of fevered pitch that would normally only be appropriate between a person who supports feminism and a person who supports the patriarchy outright. There are always going to be differences in opinion and approach, because there are differences in experience and understanding. We should pride ourselves on our ability to bridge those gaps in a meaningful way, not our ability to expound upon them at great length.
Quote from: Bu☆ns on September 07, 2012, 05:15:39 PM
FWIW, I'm learning a lot from these threads but at some points it gets gets difficult wading through the noise to get to the good stuff. I'm not bitching about it as I understand the nature of the place but on a practical level, it can be challenging. And like, I find myself reading through a lot of the derails hoping at some point it'll become valuable...as it has a couple of times...but then an hour goes by and I think, "what's the point?"
Roger, I notice you will objectively outline your perspective on a derail from time to time and I think that helps pull the conversation back to a constructive progression...and i appreciate that. I'll end up giving up on a thread, skipping forward to a post like that and then continue on.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 07, 2012, 05:32:55 PM
I'm not seeing "sides". I'm seeing "poor communication", as everyone shouts past each other. This is caused by people reading what they EXPECT the other person to say, rather than what the other person actually said.
And that is indeed a problem.
These 3 about sum it up for me. Though to be honest the feminism threads DID in fact make me look at things in a very different way and examine the damage of a patriarchy in general. I honestly didn't think that far until it started. Then two weeks later, I felt like we were beating a dead horse, running circles in semantics, on top of hurt feelings which clouds the information. So I stopped looking at it for a while to give myself a break from it.
I've already said everything I intend to say on the subject. I'm not overly fond of repeating myself, so I don't really take part in these discussions anymore.
Quote from: v3x on September 07, 2012, 06:48:36 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 07, 2012, 05:40:05 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 07, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
I'll go one step further and say that the fact that there even appear to BE "sides" is indicative of a serious problem.
Yes. Well, I have noticed a definite emergence of a tendency for people to act as if there are "sides", and one of the hallmarks of that is quoting one person's post but actually arguing against something someone else entirely said. When we get to the point where we're all interchangeable, there's no point in continuing.
The tragedy from my perspective is that nobody at PD would be considered antifeminism from any reasonable standpoint, but sometimes the arguments reach the kind of fevered pitch that would normally only be appropriate between a person who supports feminism and a person who supports the patriarchy outright. There are always going to be differences in opinion and approach, because there are differences in experience and understanding. We should pride ourselves on our ability to bridge those gaps in a meaningful way, not our ability to expound upon them at great length.
For my part, I'm staying away from the Feminism Per Se discussion, because I made a fool of myself typing a lot of words from a place of misunderstanding and crude assumption before, and I need to learn a lot more about the subject before I pretend to have anything like a "position" on the matter. And I'll learn a lot more by listening than by firing a barrage of my own ideas at people who already have a hard enough time being heard.
For the record I don't think anyone's trying to turn PD into a forum about feminism any more than it is a forum about politics or the humanities. Feminism is a recurring theme lately, but it isn't a transformative theme. Maybe Feminism is the next subject PD is working on. It snuck up like the BIP did, after all, and I think an entire class of people who are still treated as second class citizens in many ways is as good a subject for this board to work out as any of the other subjects we work out. That it arouses almost violent reactions among us is a good thing, I think, as long as we all remember nobody is fighting for The Other Side, we're just fighting to understand each other.
Good points, especially the bolded.
Quote from: Faust on September 07, 2012, 07:08:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2012, 07:06:53 PM
Not necessarily, it's more of a default.
It's a general forum though with five to ten threads on the same topic constantly rising to the top.
I think I posted mine in Aneristic Illusions.
Where it's posted doesn't matter to me though, I always read by "Show Unread Posts".
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 07, 2012, 05:01:58 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 07, 2012, 04:57:52 PM
We already talked about this privately, but I should probably say it out here too: I find that I feel like my arguments get lumped in with theirs, as if they represent my perspective, and then it's like I'm on their side vs. the other side, which is not a productive or particularly accurate description of my position.
Not with me. I don't tend to lump anyone together in these things. You have a reasoned approach that leads to excessive NIGELING, and that hurts my butt. Garbo has a lot of good ideas, but gets frustrated easily. Pixie says some awesome shit, but she's still finding her way around the subject. Signora Paesor is looking for a fight. ECH isn't going to take anyone's shit, Vex says some good stuff, but can't seem to help antagonistic "jokes". Me, I'm just a befuddled biped who limps along trying to keep up.
THIS.
Also, of the roughly 50% of the population who are men, there's a HUGE portion who treat us like humans/are gay/are disinterested for whatever other reason/are interested but don't try to run all over us/whatever, leaving a small but obnoxious faction that I don't cnsider representative of "men".
Gay men can be hella dismissive of women, it should be pointed out.
Some of the most mysognistic shit I have ever heard has come from the mouths of gay dudes.
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2012, 11:59:00 PM
Gay men can be hella dismissive of women, it should be pointed out.
Some of the most mysognistic shit I have ever heard has come from the mouths of gay dudes.
Same, and not just isolated to a few individuals, a hell of a lot of gay guys are like this for whatever wierd reason.
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 12:06:42 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2012, 11:59:00 PM
Gay men can be hella dismissive of women, it should be pointed out.
Some of the most mysognistic shit I have ever heard has come from the mouths of gay dudes.
Same, and not just isolated to a few individuals, a hell of a lot of gay guys are like this for whatever wierd reason.
Fish and period jokes?
Kitchen jokes and "vagina dentia" were two of the more recent ones I heard.
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 12:06:42 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2012, 11:59:00 PM
Gay men can be hella dismissive of women, it should be pointed out.
Some of the most mysognistic shit I have ever heard has come from the mouths of gay dudes.
Same, and not just isolated to a few individuals, a hell of a lot of gay guys are like this for whatever wierd reason.
I've observed the same things from a number of 'em as well. I think that's a "men in general" thing, not limited to heterosexual men. I think maybe they can get away with it more for reasons I haven't been able to figure out.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on September 08, 2012, 12:25:21 AM
Kitchen jokes and "vagina dentia" were two of the more recent ones I heard.
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 12:06:42 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2012, 11:59:00 PM
Gay men can be hella dismissive of women, it should be pointed out.
Some of the most mysognistic shit I have ever heard has come from the mouths of gay dudes.
Same, and not just isolated to a few individuals, a hell of a lot of gay guys are like this for whatever wierd reason.
I've observed the same things from a number of 'em as well. I think that's a "men in general" thing, not limited to heterosexual men. I think maybe they can get away with it more for reasons I haven't been able to figure out.
It's fucked up, but I tend to overlook it. They catch too much flak as is, if they want to spit nails, I let 'em. And they don't ALL do it, at least not around me.
Some people are just bitchy. :lol:
I know they catch flak, but I'm not real wild about them shedding some of that flak on me. So I don't let them. They tend to stop after a while, if they're interested in being my friend.
I'm not wild about it either, I just don't give them the same treatment I would give a racist telling a fucked up joke.
They have a whole faction of people who are trying to rule over them because they fuck PUSSY, like that makes them better. Pussy, butt, it all gets nasty if you don't wash it.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 12:59:57 AM
I'm not wild about it either, I just don't give them the same treatment I would give a racist telling a fucked up joke.
They have a whole faction of people who are trying to rule over them because they fuck PUSSY, like that makes them better. Pussy, butt, it all gets nasty if you don't wash it.
You might be surprised how many racists have done that to me. It's not different.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 01:10:08 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 12:59:57 AM
I'm not wild about it either, I just don't give them the same treatment I would give a racist telling a fucked up joke.
They have a whole faction of people who are trying to rule over them because they fuck PUSSY, like that makes them better. Pussy, butt, it all gets nasty if you don't wash it.
You might be surprised how many racists have done that to me. It's not different.
Yeah. I need to rethink this one. Thanks.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 01:18:04 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 01:10:08 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 12:59:57 AM
I'm not wild about it either, I just don't give them the same treatment I would give a racist telling a fucked up joke.
They have a whole faction of people who are trying to rule over them because they fuck PUSSY, like that makes them better. Pussy, butt, it all gets nasty if you don't wash it.
You might be surprised how many racists have done that to me. It's not different.
Yeah. I need to rethink this one. Thanks.
YW
I find that it's a "test" of sorts... if I let them get away with it, then I get praised for being "cool" and "not like all the rest".
But what I've also found is that if I don't tolerate it I end up surrounded by a higher caliber of people. I have a shit ton of gay male friends and the ones I have don't have any tolerance for misogynistic bullshit either.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 01:26:07 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 01:18:04 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 01:10:08 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 12:59:57 AM
I'm not wild about it either, I just don't give them the same treatment I would give a racist telling a fucked up joke.
They have a whole faction of people who are trying to rule over them because they fuck PUSSY, like that makes them better. Pussy, butt, it all gets nasty if you don't wash it.
You might be surprised how many racists have done that to me. It's not different.
Yeah. I need to rethink this one. Thanks.
YW
I find that it's a "test" of sorts... if I let them get away with it, then I get praised for being "cool" and "not like all the rest".
But what I've also found is that if I don't tolerate it I end up surrounded by a higher caliber of people. I have a shit ton of gay male friends and the ones I have don't have any tolerance for misogynistic bullshit either.
I never gave it the thought that I should have, I made excuses for them.
Thanks again. Things like this are what rocks about this place. :)
I think if we're going to discuss feminism on PD, we should talk about this attempt to redefine the concept of honour and vendetta outside of a masculine framework
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/woman-who-murdered-her-rapist-seeks-to-abort-baby-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=29077&NewsCatID=341
QuoteA woman who placed the severed head of the man who raped her in a village square after shooting him dead has said she wants to abort the baby conceived as a result of the assault, Doğan news agency reported.
The woman, a local in Isparta's Yalvaç district, made headlines recently when she severed the head of a man who had been raping her and blackmailing her for months, tossing it into the open in the village square.
She was arrested shortly after police forces detained her. She reportedly told villagers that the head was the "head of the one toying with [her] honor."
Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2012, 01:58:56 AM
I think if we're going to discuss feminism on PD, we should talk about this attempt to redefine the concept of honour and vendetta outside of a masculine framework
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/woman-who-murdered-her-rapist-seeks-to-abort-baby-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=29077&NewsCatID=341
QuoteA woman who placed the severed head of the man who raped her in a village square after shooting him dead has said she wants to abort the baby conceived as a result of the assault, Doğan news agency reported.
The woman, a local in Isparta's Yalvaç district, made headlines recently when she severed the head of a man who had been raping her and blackmailing her for months, tossing it into the open in the village square.
She was arrested shortly after police forces detained her. She reportedly told villagers that the head was the "head of the one toying with [her] honor."
I definitely agree.
That sort of machismo doesn't result in justice—as much as a part of me thinks he may have deserved it.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 01:52:53 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 01:26:07 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 01:18:04 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 01:10:08 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 08, 2012, 12:59:57 AM
I'm not wild about it either, I just don't give them the same treatment I would give a racist telling a fucked up joke.
They have a whole faction of people who are trying to rule over them because they fuck PUSSY, like that makes them better. Pussy, butt, it all gets nasty if you don't wash it.
You might be surprised how many racists have done that to me. It's not different.
Yeah. I need to rethink this one. Thanks.
YW
I find that it's a "test" of sorts... if I let them get away with it, then I get praised for being "cool" and "not like all the rest".
But what I've also found is that if I don't tolerate it I end up surrounded by a higher caliber of people. I have a shit ton of gay male friends and the ones I have don't have any tolerance for misogynistic bullshit either.
I never gave it the thought that I should have, I made excuses for them.
Thanks again. Things like this are what rocks about this place. :)
Righteous! :)
Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2012, 01:58:56 AM
I think if we're going to discuss feminism on PD, we should talk about this attempt to redefine the concept of honour and vendetta outside of a masculine framework
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/woman-who-murdered-her-rapist-seeks-to-abort-baby-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=29077&NewsCatID=341
QuoteA woman who placed the severed head of the man who raped her in a village square after shooting him dead has said she wants to abort the baby conceived as a result of the assault, Doğan news agency reported.
The woman, a local in Isparta's Yalvaç district, made headlines recently when she severed the head of a man who had been raping her and blackmailing her for months, tossing it into the open in the village square.
She was arrested shortly after police forces detained her. She reportedly told villagers that the head was the "head of the one toying with [her] honor."
I uh...
whoa.
I got nothing.
I assume Cain was being facetious, though, because of course it's ludicrous to describe the extreme actions of a person who went off her rocker under stress as an attempt to change culture. Although it should certainly be scrutinized as a symptom of whatever is going on in her culture.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 02:51:33 AM
I assume Cain was being facetious, though, because of course it's ludicrous to describe the extreme actions of a person who went off her rocker under stress as an attempt to change culture. Although it should certainly be scrutinized as a symptom of whatever is going on in her culture.
I took his comment to mean, "we should talk about this [and] attempt to redefine the concept of honour and vendetta outside of a masculine framework", though it still seems ambiguous upon a second reading...
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 02:51:33 AM
I assume Cain was being facetious, though, because of course it's ludicrous to describe the extreme actions of a person who went off her rocker under stress as an attempt to change culture. Although it should certainly be scrutinized as a symptom of whatever is going on in her culture.
I don't know about that. Sometimes you just have to explain your position in terms that people understand.
Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2012, 01:58:56 AM
I think if we're going to discuss feminism on PD, we should talk about this attempt to redefine the concept of honour and vendetta outside of a masculine framework
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/woman-who-murdered-her-rapist-seeks-to-abort-baby-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=29077&NewsCatID=341
QuoteA woman who placed the severed head of the man who raped her in a village square after shooting him dead has said she wants to abort the baby conceived as a result of the assault, Doğan news agency reported.
The woman, a local in Isparta's Yalvaç district, made headlines recently when she severed the head of a man who had been raping her and blackmailing her for months, tossing it into the open in the village square.
She was arrested shortly after police forces detained her. She reportedly told villagers that the head was the "head of the one toying with [her] honor."
What do you mean. There are people applauding her, if it had been a man killing a woman who was blackmailing him I doubt I'd see as much support.
Same with the people who thought that russian rapist woman was awesome.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on September 08, 2012, 12:25:21 AM
Kitchen jokes and "vagina dentia" were two of the more recent ones I heard.
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 12:06:42 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2012, 11:59:00 PM
Gay men can be hella dismissive of women, it should be pointed out.
Some of the most mysognistic shit I have ever heard has come from the mouths of gay dudes.
Same, and not just isolated to a few individuals, a hell of a lot of gay guys are like this for whatever wierd reason.
I've observed the same things from a number of 'em as well. I think that's a "men in general" thing, not limited to heterosexual men. I think maybe they can get away with it more for reasons I haven't been able to figure out.
Completely different language. The hetro language would describe her as a bitch or a whore or a cunt simple, not descriptive. For instance I've never seen anyone other then a gay man use variations of the Stinky Fish Vag insult.
Quote from: Net on September 08, 2012, 06:54:07 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 08, 2012, 02:51:33 AM
I assume Cain was being facetious, though, because of course it's ludicrous to describe the extreme actions of a person who went off her rocker under stress as an attempt to change culture. Although it should certainly be scrutinized as a symptom of whatever is going on in her culture.
I took his comment to mean, "we should talk about this [and] attempt to redefine the concept of honour and vendetta outside of a masculine framework", though it still seems ambiguous upon a second reading...
I guess I'm really, really unclear on what the point is with relationship to the idea of feminism and equality.
I'm not sure. A man wouldn't have been cheered for that either, obviously. People nowadays frown on tossing severed heads around.
Maybe in another era things would have been different. (Queen Boudica, anyone?)
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 08:48:32 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2012, 01:58:56 AM
I think if we're going to discuss feminism on PD, we should talk about this attempt to redefine the concept of honour and vendetta outside of a masculine framework
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/woman-who-murdered-her-rapist-seeks-to-abort-baby-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=29077&NewsCatID=341
QuoteA woman who placed the severed head of the man who raped her in a village square after shooting him dead has said she wants to abort the baby conceived as a result of the assault, Doğan news agency reported.
The woman, a local in Isparta's Yalvaç district, made headlines recently when she severed the head of a man who had been raping her and blackmailing her for months, tossing it into the open in the village square.
She was arrested shortly after police forces detained her. She reportedly told villagers that the head was the "head of the one toying with [her] honor."
What do you mean. There are people applauding her, if it had been a man killing a woman who was blackmailing him I doubt I'd see as much support.
Same with the people who thought that russian rapist woman was awesome.
There are people on Reddit applauding self-confessed rapists.
There are Luka Magnotta fan clubs that consist of obsessed women.
There have been people on this very board who outspokenly supported torture and execution of accused child molesters, without a trial.
What, exactly, is your point, in terms of how this relates to patriarchy and social change?
Just noting on a trend.
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 08:38:07 PM
Just noting on a trend.
In what way is it a trend?
Can you also relate the incident in such a way that it's specifically relevant?
Nigel's right, serial killers get tons of love letters in prison. (I wonder what these women would do if those guys were actually released?)
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 08:52:09 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on September 08, 2012, 12:25:21 AM
Kitchen jokes and "vagina dentia" were two of the more recent ones I heard.
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 12:06:42 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2012, 11:59:00 PM
Gay men can be hella dismissive of women, it should be pointed out.
Some of the most mysognistic shit I have ever heard has come from the mouths of gay dudes.
Same, and not just isolated to a few individuals, a hell of a lot of gay guys are like this for whatever wierd reason.
I've observed the same things from a number of 'em as well. I think that's a "men in general" thing, not limited to heterosexual men. I think maybe they can get away with it more for reasons I haven't been able to figure out.
Completely different language. The hetro language would describe her as a bitch or a whore or a cunt simple, not descriptive. For instance I've never seen anyone other then a gay man use variations of the Stinky Fish Vag insult.
The disrespect and misogyny is what I meant. How one goes about making misogynistic jokes may differ if one's a gay guy, but the sentiment is the same.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on September 08, 2012, 10:49:05 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 08:52:09 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on September 08, 2012, 12:25:21 AM
Kitchen jokes and "vagina dentia" were two of the more recent ones I heard.
Quote from: Faust on September 08, 2012, 12:06:42 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2012, 11:59:00 PM
Gay men can be hella dismissive of women, it should be pointed out.
Some of the most mysognistic shit I have ever heard has come from the mouths of gay dudes.
Same, and not just isolated to a few individuals, a hell of a lot of gay guys are like this for whatever wierd reason.
I've observed the same things from a number of 'em as well. I think that's a "men in general" thing, not limited to heterosexual men. I think maybe they can get away with it more for reasons I haven't been able to figure out.
Completely different language. The hetro language would describe her as a bitch or a whore or a cunt simple, not descriptive. For instance I've never seen anyone other then a gay man use variations of the Stinky Fish Vag insult.
The disrespect and misogyny is what I meant. How one goes about making misogynistic jokes may differ if one's a gay guy, but the sentiment is the same.
Not really, it's a different manifestation of the same problem best combated in a different way.
If she was repeatedly raped by some guy... well, I'm not gonna argue that she was crazy/psychotic or wrong/evil for killing him. Yeah, rule of law is great, but in the end, if you are under attack, personally, directly and (in this case) regularly... I can't really say that a fatal response is entirely wrong. In some parts of (mostly the southeast, but some of the very rural areas as well)Turkey, there have been a lot of problems with 'honor killings', where men murdered their wives or daughters for real or perceived immorality. That's inexcusable and its a far cry from someone being physically assaulted and raped.