Okay, something I've been gnashing on in the noggin lately. I threw it on a Gliffy.
Basically, I was thinking about the BIP again. Thinking about the bars.
I've also been thinking lately about Identity and Self-Identity. It would seem, to me, like when we think of "Who We Are", we are basing it on things that are in the forefront of our mind. For example, I was born and raised in Aroostook County Maine, all of my adult life has been, NOT in Aroostook County Maine. Yet, I still self-identify as an Aroostook County Mainer.
So, I'm thinking about the bars again. So, maybe, it's the bars that are those things in the fore-front, the elements of our Self-Identity. And the "spaces" are the elements that DO affect who we are and how we behave, but we don't ourselves incorporate that into our Self-Identity, or at least, not in any meaningful way. But, if we allow ourselves to become introspective, if we magnify the spaces between the bars, we recognize and see that the "spaces" are not spaces, but indeed smaller bars.
Anyway, I know some have mentioned that the BIP has been played out, but I couldn't help these thoughts from coming out and I wanted to throw them out there nonetheless. The graphic is to follow.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/RWHN/L.jpg)
edit: Yeah, I see the typo, just ignore it.
:mittens:
This is a very relevant topic in my life right now. Over the last few months, I've been trying to help out a good friend who is suffering from this exact topic. He is given to excessive self definition which is leading to what I've called Ego Sickness (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=12962.0).
One of my primary pushes is to convince him that e-prime is a very positive tool when used in regards to the self.
For example, he'll spend twenty minutes noodling on his new guitar, get frustrated, and say "I'm no good at the guitar." Dude, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I'm having trouble learning how to play the guitar" than define yourself as bad at it forever? He's not convinced, though, that a shift in language use will result in a cognitive reality-tunnel shift.
QuoteAnyway, I know some have mentioned that the BIP has been played out, but I couldn't help these thoughts from coming out and I wanted to throw them out there nonetheless.
Not played out! I do feel that we've exhausted the existing discussion topics. Personally, I attribute this more to the current vibe of the posters here than the nature of the content.
In time we'll get more GO DO energy. These waves have valleys and crests.
I'm pretty slammed at work, so i can't respond in full, so i'll go with an imperfect sound bite:
Definitions of the self are inherently limiting, but are also strictly necessary. Without the definitions (limitations/bars/etc) of who we are, we are without a sense of identity.
More examples of how we can never break out of the prison, ITT.
I think it's a curious thing, how people Identify themselves. And how, in turn, this can affect how they identify with other humans, and the larger world beyond them.
Another thing that made me think of this diagram is people who let others shape their self-identity. An example I can think of is one of my Aunt's who was pretty much a Helicopter-mom. Hovering over my cousin, making all of her decisions for her, not in an aggressive, dictator sort of way. But, basically challenging my cousin's ability to think for herself and choose the right things. And so, she becomes anorexic because one thing she can control, that her mother cannot, is what goes, or doesn't go, into her stomach. But, as far as her self-identity is concerned, she's taking the anorexic approach because she think's she's fat.
If she, and my aunt, could look beyond the bigger, obvious bars of "I'm Fat" "I'm Anorexic", they'd see the bars in between of "control" "mom/daughter disconnect", etc. Because, clearly, if those bars are not addressed, the situation will not change until it's too late and my cousin is in the ground.
At the risk of taking the metaphor too far, or losing the vibes from the original, the mother/daughter conflict in the example above could prehaps be considered as the welds that keep the bars in place?
You can't change your bars until you change what holds them in place?
Hmmm... It seems there are different types of bars....
You might be running into familial dysfunction, but you see it as weight gain.
Interesting.
Responding to Payne's post.
I don't know. I'll have to think about that one.
The reason I came up with the bars between bars, scheme, is that it seems like the closer you look, the more you find that is impacting who you are, how you behave, decisions you make, etc., etc.,
Of course, this implies that at some point, someone can become OC with magnifying the space between the bars and losing perspective.
Another one of those delicate balance deals.
Yeah, on reflection, I like your idea better.
Maybe it's just the fractal idea I like :D
RWHN - Worthy addition to the ongoing BIP dialogue.
I actually don't think it's played out either. I think that BIP was an overnight success that was in years in the making. The original project manifested pretty quickly but it's ancestry was the huge 'inter-forum' shit storms that were going on followed by the near total death of PD.com.
I thought also that the 'shrapnel' concept had legs too, so I would sort of like to see that reactivated. Like Payne, I was more of the mind that a metaphor implying radioactive emissions (eg: sunlight) worked well. But that's neither here nor there. Essentially, it was an interesting avenue that could use more exploration futurely.
Getting to the topic in hand, I love the fractal nature of the bars endless repeating regardless of whatever scale the observer happens to be looking from.
From my personal experience as a bodyworker, I see the effects of this all the time. People can often form unhealthy bonds to their conditions and symptomologies. One of my teachers in the UK advised me that it was important to 'remove the client's badges'. By that, he meant that people will say things like:
client: My bad back is the worst ever. I've been to every kind of therapist and it never improved! (note: client is proud of the fact that they're injured, in pain and less capable than they were pre-back pain)
My teacher was big into mindfucking his clients so his response was:
therapist: Oh really? That's weird. I've had at least 10 clients who were in worse condition.
client: Uhh...what happened to them?
therapist: They all got better.
Self identity with illness (real or imagined) is an exceedingly common habit and I see it often in my line of work.
client: Can you fix this?
me: No. But only because you weren't broken to begin with.
Starting on Monday I came down with a cold, very minor and nothing really to worry about at all. A few years ago I decided to re-frame my experience of 'colds' by saying:
I'm not actually sick. What I'm experiencing is the side-effects of my natural immunity to whatever virus this is. A few days nasal congestion and a bit of fever is, to me, a fair trade for the fact that I'm very unlikely to die from this - and without an immune system, that's almost certainly what would happen to me.
So I try and keep the words 'sickness' or 'illness' in store for serious things.
As a related issue, the over-diagnosis of ADD and Bipolar Disorder in America has resulted in many people self-identifying with these labels, even if they do not have have these conditions or were never diagnosed as having them. Personally, I think that most of the people who have been disagnosed have been mislead, especially in the case of children, but that's another topic altogether. But I do hear often people saying stuff like they're 'ADD' or 'Bipolar' when they actually mean something else. There is a tendency for people to superficially acquire labels from other sources, not understand their implications and then add them to the accretion of other self-identifications.
As a bodyworker, it's my contention that if anyone still insists that there is a 'mind/body' divide need to be kicked in the shins. In doing so, I send a stimulus up the leg, to the spine, into the brain and then back to the site of injury. There is no divide. In the embryo, the layer of cells that turns into your brain & nervous system is, ironically, the same tissue that will ultimately turn into your skin. Your skin is either the outermost layer of your brain, or your brain is the innermost part of your skin.
Because of this, the self-idenfication of illness and injuries works on a variety of levels.
I really like what you posted about colds. I wish I could get my wife to subscribe to that sort of thinking. Although, I sometimes wonder if she gets a small amount of enjoyment out of being miserable.
I was actually thinking about the Shrapnel thing again today, and I may have more to add to that in the near future, if I can get it all sorted out in my mind.
That mind/body is so spot on. One can mindfuck themselves so easily without realising or comprehending what they are doing.
great post, Mang
A lot of things play into this.
Lately because I have had little time to reflect on myself as an object, I have shifted my cognitive time to identifying myself in terms of what I do.
I may have descended from a line of uptight religious assholes, and I don't want to say I am free of baggage from that but I don't think it's directly affecting me at this moment.
Right now, "I" am just a bag of organic material with a short-term expiration date. I can't say without time to think about it what has given me all the habits and baggage I have. I am more in control of the habits and baggage I give to other people, especially my kids.
I am whatever it is that causes my son to feel like he's safe in his own house, and know that his needs are taken care of. I am the force of nature that exists specifically to comfort my now 9 months pregnant wife. Although, not as egotistical as that might sound.
Right now I don't feel boxed into a prison because although I may be staring at the same cell every day I am using the "bars" actively in an effort to build something that lasts.
This is probably unrelated, I'm not paying enough attention.
lol, thread roont. i should resign from the bip.
the fractal metaphor is an interesting concept because it implies that the identifications are endless. i was actually hoping that you would also consider the spaces themselves since they too are an aspect of the fractal and not just the bars themselves. from what i understand the bars represent the identies in the forefront of our mind but what do the spaces represent? what would be the most useful representation of the negative space of the image?
do the spaces represent ambitions and dreams or the idealized forms of our potentiality? or do they represent the unconscience bars of our past that push us into future desires? afterall, desires are simply elements of past experiences wanting to manifest themselves again, right?
is it possible to have a truely original thought? if all of our thoughts are influenced by our past experiences, then it would seem to me that the spaces would represent our desires. perhaps they even represent an imaginary ideal for what we think we should become?
so, what happens when one breaks from the BIP?
maybe nothing? or maybe one finds himself sitting infront of his computer typing this reply.
[i've read through the BIP and i love the metaphors. although perhaps most of you covered much of what i've talked about since i have not read through all of the commentary. the OP just gave me some food for thought and i thought i'd share so i apologize if some of this has already been covered :)]
1) i'm gonna throw the words "figure" and "ground" into this thread. *plonk*
2) if, by breaking out of somewhere, you only get into a new prison, this means that when you look through the bars, all you can see out there are bars of prisons further away (just like the nightsky should be brightly lit with stars, if it weren't for the speed of light, age of the universe and physics and stuff).
Quote from: burnstoupee on September 24, 2007, 04:52:48 AM
the fractal metaphor is an interesting concept because it implies that the identifications are endless. i was actually hoping that you would also consider the spaces themselves since they too are an aspect of the fractal and not just the bars themselves. from what i understand the bars represent the identies in the forefront of our mind but what do the spaces represent? what would be the most useful representation of the negative space of the image?
do the spaces represent ambitions and dreams or the idealized forms of our potentiality? or do they represent the unconscience bars of our past that push us into future desires? afterall, desires are simply elements of past experiences wanting to manifest themselves again, right?
is it possible to have a truely original thought? if all of our thoughts are influenced by our past experiences, then it would seem to me that the spaces would represent our desires. perhaps they even represent an imaginary ideal for what we think we should become?
so, what happens when one breaks from the BIP?
maybe nothing? or maybe one finds himself sitting infront of his computer typing this reply.
[i've read through the BIP and i love the metaphors. although perhaps most of you covered much of what i've talked about since i have not read through all of the commentary. the OP just gave me some food for thought and i thought i'd share so i apologize if some of this has already been covered :)]
I honestly don't know a lot about fractals other than the endlessly repeating idea, which is why I threw it on the diagram, complete with ? mark. I'm not sure about the spaces.
I would tend to think the spaces close as time passes. When we start as an infant we have limited experiences aside from the instant biological instincts we are born with. So when we are born we self-identify as something that needs food, love, warmth, and shelter. But we don't have the deep, entrenched sociological things going on. Or at least, it would seem they'd be very, very simplified.
I think the main thing I was trying to get at in this thread was the idea that there are certain parts of ourselves, our experiences, that we rely upon when we think of ourselves. It seems like there are a base amount of bars on the surface, that make up our self-identity. I see those being the immediate bars you see in a prison cell.
I originally thought, metaphorically, that the spaces between the bars would be the elements of ourselves that are more buried or that are layered deeper underneath. But, then I thought it makes more sense for there to be smaller bars between, and that if you dig deep, you find more.
This also lends itself to the idea of digging too deep, to get too caught up in your thoughts, where you get lost in the prison. I mean, think of how desperate a situtation that must be, to be lost in a prison cell.
Burns:
Have you ever met anyone* who has said something like, "I'd really love to take up painting, but _______ (I've got bills to pay, my parents would get upset, people would make fun of me, et al)?
The desire to paint, the vast potential of possibility, could be the space between the bars, and the thing that's stopping this person are the bars themselves.
Also, please see the Sermon on Ethics and Love in the PD.
*using the Third Person, in case the First is too personal.
okay. i think i see what you're getting at.
it seems that in a roundabout way the metaphor kinda parallels the buddhist concept of being bound to the Dharmacakra or wheel of samsara. as i understand it, one can be bound by chains of gold or iron which represent the attachements one has toward the postive and negative parts of life. the sermon on ethics and love hints at the attachements themselves which could also be why the spaces can represent vast potential but not the actuality.
Reflecting on the OP a bit. Iit fair to say that some bars make good handholds for heaving yourself out? As LMNO mentioned in his comment about dif. types of bars, some may be useful, but you have to let go of them eventually, if OUT is where you're trying to get.
Just expanding on the metaphor a bit
Cept, you really can't get out, short of a shotgun breakfast.
However, I think what you are talking about is what I would describe as getting lost in the bars. So referring to the diagram and the fractal idea. If you magnify the spaces between the bars too much to find the smaller more buried bars, if you go digging too deep, you may lose perspective and be lost in your cell.
I was more following the line of thought of "you can get out of the cell, but you're still only in the prison.", and pondering if anything could be both a bar and a "Handhold" if you will, a self - identification that could be usefull for a time.
Identification as a limitation I'd agree with, but could an identification, for a time be a useful tool? (Tools being a subtle trap themselves could more limit than help you.)
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 26, 2007, 05:56:33 PM
However, I think what you are talking about is what I would describe as getting lost in the bars. So referring to the diagram and the fractal idea. If you magnify the spaces between the bars too much to find the smaller more buried bars, if you go digging too deep, you may lose perspective and be lost in your cell.
I think I follow; don't split hairs over the metaphor, focus on the message / situation?
Oh I get you. Oh absolutely the bars can serve useful purposes, just as they can serve for ill. For example, if playing music is a bar (honestly, pun NOT intended) and always searching for truth, is another, these bars together can be quite useful. Searching for the truth through art. Using the art, the music, to help you explore your world.
I think where looking between your bars of self-identification is important is when you're kind of stuck with something about yourself that you don't like. So I gave the example earlier about my cousin the anorexic. If she were able to see some of the smaller bars that were playing into the bigger ones, she might have a better chance to orient herself, or, to at least acknowledge that she and her mom indeed do need professional help to help them navigate their choppy waters.
Getting caught up pondering bars is an easy thing to let happen Interesting ramifications for Ego overall.
I can't help cross referencing it whith some buddhist ideas too, lots to chew over here.
Thanks, this has gotten my wheels turning!
Perhaps, the 'spaces' are the negatives of the bars. (I think someone mentioned that already).
In terms of self-identification, if for example someone says:
'I am a Christian' (bar)
then it means that they stating (indirectly) that they are not an atheist, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc etc. (space)
Of course if they say:
'I am a Catholic Christian'
that then creates further refinement of the self-ID. Because not only does it rule out everything that isn't Christian, it also rules out all other types of Christianity.
Every statement is also a statement of it's opposite. (I think in a Crowley-ish kinda way)
What's interesting is, as the bars get narrower and narrower, they tend to block out more and more space.
But is the space really there or do we just recognize it as it diminishes?
Are the bars merely dividers for what fills up the spaces.
As you grow older and become more regulated into the "way things need to be" mentality do your spaces slowly close as you add more and more responsibility, bend to more accepted ideas etc. And are the bars are the dividers we are born with?
And if this is the case, if you refuse to bend to that mentality, do you keep your spaces open? If you refuse to be sick, will you keep a window between the dividers for illness? Is it not the bars but the spaces that keep you in prison?
Being human keeps you in the prison.
The bars and spaces, and getting lost in them, or not recognizing the at all, is what keeps you in your prison cell.
For some, it's blissful ignorance, so it doesn't matter.
For some, it's obsessive compulsive introspection, so it's seemingly futile.
For some, it's just a way to pass the hours, waiting for the inevitable.
For some, it's a way to blaze your own trail, and drawing your own damn horizon.
Self-identification or self-definition?
I identify with all sorts of memes... Discordian, Hacker, SCAdian, Duelist, Poet, Writer, Stoner, Chef... but these aren't necessarily constricting or limiting. By identifying with the Discordian meme (or Memetic entity perhaps), I'm not saying that I may not also be Atheist, Thelemic, Druid, Wiccan, Neo-Pagan, or Chaos Magician. When I call myself a hacker, I'm not restricting myself from being a gamer, or a web surfer. Identifying as a Poet doesn't stop me from writing Prose, nor does it stop me from writing music...
However, defining oneself as any of those things may indeed be bars in a BiP. Once again, we might see that the bars exist in the perception of the observer.
Just a random thought...
It was never my intention to propose that these self-identification bars are limiting. Again, the idea is, when someone asks you, "Who Are You?", for many a certain set of ideas spring to mind. Because it's how we identify ourself. By definition, I would say that is a limited definition since one can't possibly contemplate all that defines the person all the time. However, this doesn't, necessarily, entail that one is limited in how they exist, behave, live, etc.
However, there is POTENTIAL for limitation, and I've given an example of such earlier. But there is also POTENTIAL for exploration when one realizes there are aspects of themselves, that have been exerting influnces, but that they've not recognize in earnest themselves. That's when we need to examine what's going on between these self-identity (or self-defining if you prefer) so we can get a better bearing on where we should go or how we should act.
It's always better to have more information when you don't have enough.
the immediate impression i get from the bars metaphor is similar to LMNOs-
you are the prison, which can expend, contract or stay static, the bars are your ego and the spaces in between are the "Objective world" ; all we can "experience" of that objectivity is through those Ego Bars of identity and perception. of course, the prison metaphor is useful for describing the negative aspects, as it lends to the sense of the matter, but correlating positive/beneficial concepts seems awkward like the word "awkward."
i recommend Zazen meditation practices for weakening the bars. followed by reflective meditation to analyze the bars. after the two, corrective action seems to follow like water from the spring. of course, forcing someone into meditation isn't going to work, plain and simple, which is a shame, as i feel it's the best possible way to become aware of your own impediments.
on a note of irony, the Age of Reason told us that the mind was the last sanctuary of Freedom.
the future's response was to prove them wrong.