Principia Discordia

HONOLULU (AP) — Military officials are investigating an Internet video that purports to show a Marine throwing a puppy off a rocky cliff.

Maj. Chris Perrine of the Marine Corps Base Hawaii says it appears the man is based with a unit in the islands.

Marine officials are calling the YouTube video "shocking and deplorable" and say it violates "the high standard we expect of every Marine."

The low-quality video shows two Marines joking as one holds up what appears to be a motionless black and white puppy, which he then hurls into a rocky gully.

A yelping sound is heard as it flies through the air.


http://rapidshare.com/files/96880705/us_soldier.avi - ACTUAL FOOTAGE

His Bebo http://www.bebo.com/DavidMotari

David Motari
24419 Florence Acres Rd
Monroe, WA 98272-9662
Phone: (360) 794-7191
(714) 330-0418

DAVID MOTARI FACTS:
1) He is now in Iraq, or Hawaii (in Kaneohe Bay)
2) He is the soldier in the video (see the pics of Iraq on his Bebo site for confirmation)
3) He married Jessica Thatcher in January 2008 (google: david motari heraldnet)
4) His wife moved to Hawaii on Feb 24, 2008 (google: david motari jessica myspace, choose "nathen - 20", her friend)
5) He signed Ipetitions:
152 David Motari I am a Marine currently serving in Iraq. I would hate to see our team move out of Seattle...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=59107328

========================

I think you all know what to do....

I feel bad for his wife.

Every calling him is going to get her, and she's gonna take all the abuse while he's in Iraq.

It's a little known fact that puppies were controlling the missle which hit the Pentagon, so they've had it coming from the troops for a while.

Also, I think one raped Aini, so . . .

LOL :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

It'd be brilliant to find out what the dog's tags were, and mail him a replica with a bloody paw print.

for those that don't want to wait to download from rapidshare, a streaming version:
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/43462/9fb16ab3/us_soldaat_gooit_puppy.html

i'm sad to say, that i watched this vid three times, and i had to laugh, three times. i despise that guy just as much as the rest of you, but i can't keep my smirk down when i see a yelping puppy tumbling through the air.

must have been something about the imagery, maybe the desert rocks remind me of old roadrunner cartoons? because when i saw (for instance) zippocat, i did not think it was funny at all [ for those people that never heard of zippocat, do not google it, you will be a sad puppy ].

 :aww:

God dammit people.

 :x

Dog could have been dead, and sound effects added.

I concur.  Dog was dead.

May I ask why all of you are so gullible when it comes to things such as "puppies"?

Why are you so gullible as to think I care, beyond a chance for trolling that is related to the news?

Quote from: Random Probability on March 04, 2008, 07:12:29 PM
I concur.  Dog was dead.

May I ask why all of you are so gullible when it comes to things such as "puppies"?

Do mean "gullible", or do you mean "sentimental"? I didn't watch the video, because dead puppies are sad.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 04, 2008, 07:12:29 PM
I concur.  Dog was dead.

um. take a good look. before it's thrown, its mouth moves, and as the soldier leans back his arm for the pitch, so do its legs, and it doesn't look like they're bungling from being dead weight.

also it doesn't make sense if the sound is added, who would've done it? the soldiers surely don't have video-editing software available on their base and if anybody else did it, the original should be floating around somewhere.

may i ask why you are so keen on finding a reason why "this can't possibly be really really happening" whenever you see something awful?  :)

HAR HAR!

YOUTUBE REMOVED EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE VIDS FROM IT'S SITE!   :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Lemme guess - viacom claimed intellectual property?

Quote from: SillyCybin on March 04, 2008, 10:40:56 PM
Lemme guess - viacom claimed intellectual property?

:lol:

Quote from: triple zero on March 04, 2008, 07:44:08 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 04, 2008, 07:12:29 PM
I concur.  Dog was dead.

um. take a good look. before it's thrown, its mouth moves, and as the soldier leans back his arm for the pitch, so do its legs, and it doesn't look like they're bungling from being dead weight.

also it doesn't make sense if the sound is added, who would've done it? the soldiers surely don't have video-editing software available on their base and if anybody else did it, the original should be floating around somewhere.

may i ask why you are so keen on finding a reason why "this can't possibly be really really happening" whenever you see something awful?  :)

You don't need video editing software to make a yelping sounds. :roll:

Why are you so keen on finding a reason why "this must have really happened" when you see something awful?

I don't know, both situations seem equally likely.

Regardless, it's a horrible thing for someone to do.  :sad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57KDDKbfhmI

Quote from: triple zero on March 04, 2008, 07:44:08 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 04, 2008, 07:12:29 PM
I concur.  Dog was dead.

um. take a good look. before it's thrown, its mouth moves, and as the soldier leans back his arm for the pitch, so do its legs, and it doesn't look like they're bungling from being dead weight.

also it doesn't make sense if the sound is added, who would've done it? the soldiers surely don't have video-editing software available on their base and if anybody else did it, the original should be floating around somewhere.

may i ask why you are so keen on finding a reason why "this can't possibly be really really happening" whenever you see something awful?  :)

Residual Pinkness.

i did not like.
whether the puppy was dead or not.
reminds me of asshole kids who do mean shit to animals cause their mommies didn't hold em enough as babies.... only grown up.









fuckers.

Reminds me of soldiers in the crusades who were exempt from all sin thanks to the pope and after liberating a town would go around and rape and pillage the town they liberated.

Blood Lust. It really fucks you up.

Lemme get this straight, this guy is a US marine - A guy who has been programmed from the ground up to shoot a baby in the head "if sarge says so" and you're shocked because he can casually kill a fucking puppy?

That's what killers do - they kill things - get over it.

Quote from: Lysergic on March 05, 2008, 07:31:09 AM
Reminds me of soldiers in the crusades who were exempt from all sin thanks to the pope and after liberating a town would go around and rape and pillage the town they liberated.

Blood Lust. It really fucks you up.

Well, except for the fact he was stationed in Hawaii good point.

There was a bit in "The Things They Carried" like this, (soldier straps a landmine to a dog for kicks, then acts like a kid caught with fireworks when his buddies get angry.)  Given that they think they can get away with it, (Like the Crusades example), some people will be vicious for fun. 

Quote from: Richter on March 05, 2008, 12:45:14 PM
There was a bit in "The Things They Carried" like this, (soldier straps a landmine to a dog for kicks, then acts like a kid caught with fireworks when his buddies get angry.)  Given that they think they can get away with it, (Like the Crusades example), some people will be vicious for fun. 

Oh good god, I was so upset when I read about the water buffalo.

Good friggin book, though.

Time to play compare and contrast (http://enemiesofreason.blogspot.com/2008/03/human-beings-torture-scum-poor-little.html)

this isnt as bad as pictures of the woman who crushed the cat in her high heels.
She turned up dead in a river strangled after 4chan found out about it.

I'd be curious to see can anyone on 4chan take down a marine.

Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2008, 04:20:48 PM
this isnt as bad as pictures of the woman who crushed the cat in her high heels.
She turned up dead in a river strangled after 4chan found out about it.

I'd be curious to see can anyone on 4chan take down a marine.

shit, really?

I never heard about this.  Both of those are awful.

Quote from: SillyCybin on March 05, 2008, 07:34:46 AM
Lemme get this straight, this guy is a US marine - A guy who has been programmed from the ground up to shoot a baby in the head "if sarge says so" and you're shocked because he can casually kill a fucking puppy?

That's what killers do - they kill things - get over it.

im not shocked...

just disgusted. sure killers kill, but there's orders then there's just plain cock-suckery

First off, Cain saw troof first.  (hint: I was trolling just a wee bit)

Second, Silly was essentially correct.  You can't train someone to kill human beings for a living, then act surprised when they don't give a shit about the welfare of some random animal.  Replace the puppy with a rat, a rabbit, a chicken, a pig, a wild bird of some sort, or a giant frigging spider and contrast your emotions.  Admit it: you're all weepy only because it's a canine and that is your only reason for being so emotional.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, though.  Personally I don't think anyone in the West has any right whatsoever to care more about animals than human beings.  They say compassion only comes to those with imagination.  Try to imagine what you'd have to go through to end up in that Marine's boots.

Think about it.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 05, 2008, 04:47:01 PM
First off, Cain saw troof first.  (hint: I was trolling just a wee bit)

Second, Silly was essentially correct.  You can't train someone to kill human beings for a living, then act surprised when they don't give a shit about the welfare of some random animal.  Replace the puppy with a rat, a rabbit, a chicken, a pig, a wild bird of some sort, or a giant frigging spider and contrast your emotions.  Admit it: you're all weepy only because it's a canine and that is your only reason for being so emotional.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, though.  Personally I don't think anyone in the West has any right whatsoever to care more about animals than human beings.  They say compassion only comes to those with imagination.  Try to imagine what you'd have to go through to end up in that Marine's boots.

Think about it.

a) i don't care for dogs, i'd feel just as blech about any other animal.
b) huh? why can't we?
c) he chose to be a marine.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 05, 2008, 04:47:01 PM
First off, Cain saw troof first.  (hint: I was trolling just a wee bit)

Second, Silly was essentially correct.  You can't train someone to kill human beings for a living, then act surprised when they don't give a shit about the welfare of some random animal.  Replace the puppy with a rat, a rabbit, a chicken, a pig, a wild bird of some sort, or a giant frigging spider and contrast your emotions.  Admit it: you're all weepy only because it's a canine and that is your only reason for being so emotional.

i didn't feel all weepy for the dog, but the marine irritated me, honestly i would been filled with smug glee if someone had pushed him off the cliff then.

Quote
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, though.  Personally I don't think anyone in the West has any right whatsoever to care more about animals than human beings.  They say compassion only comes to those with imagination.  Try to imagine what you'd have to go through to end up in that Marine's boots.

Think about it.

oh yes sorry i see now, that excuses his actions.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGH!

hurrrrrrr

you know, it's really too bad for this guy that...

1) I'm not gonna bother to find out whether or not this is a hoax

and...

2) One of his neighbors (literally lives on his block) is a long-time NSRA agent.

 :lulz:

THE NSRA IS A HOAX.

Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2008, 04:20:48 PMthis isnt as bad as pictures of the woman who crushed the cat in her high heels.
She turned up dead in a river strangled after 4chan found out about it.

wow really?

is the story about that on ED?

cause i saw that pic and was like UGH

otoh i wouldn't want to meet the freak that strangled her.

Quote from: East Coast Hustle on March 06, 2008, 12:30:03 AM
you know, it's really too bad for this guy that...

1) I'm not gonna bother to find out whether or not this is a hoax

and...

2) One of his neighbors (literally lives on his block) is a long-time NSRA agent.

Is that the National Street Rod Association  or the National Shoe Retailers Association?

Just curious.  I can see how the National Shoe Retailers Association could be dread, though.

(*shivers*)

Quote from: Random Probability on March 04, 2008, 07:12:29 PM
I concur.  Dog was dead.

May I ask why all of you are so gullible when it comes to things such as "puppies"?

Bullshit, that dog was alive.

1) It was moving when he held it.
2) It's legs were curled up which is something puppies do when they're picked up by the scruff of the neck. If it was dead and in that position, rigor mortis would have to have set in which can't be the case since as soon as the dog hits the air it begins flailing it's limbs.

Thanks for playing Shoop or Not a Shoop.

This guy is being investigated by the Marine Corp btw.

Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 07, 2008, 08:27:08 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 04, 2008, 07:12:29 PM
I concur.  Dog was dead.

May I ask why all of you are so gullible when it comes to things such as "puppies"?

Bullshit, that dog was alive.

1) It was moving when he held it.
2) It's legs were curled up which is something puppies do when they're picked up by the scruff of the neck. If it was dead and in that position, rigor mortis would have to have set in which can't be the case since as soon as the dog hits the air it begins flailing it's limbs.

Thanks for playing Shoop or Not a Shoop.

This guy is being investigated by the Marine Corp btw.

All apollogeez.  As much as I would enjoy ganking your chain on this, you must have missed the part where it was a  :troll: 

On a more serious note:

1) It was just a puppy
2) The fewer dogs the better
3) Dogs are being used to carry IEDs since Americans are so fucking gullible when it comes to dogs and shit
4) It was just a puppy
5) I'm sure they are going to crucify the poor bastard and leave his PTSD untreated when he gets out of Leavenworth.
6) You do realize that his primary job is to kill human beings, right?
7) It was just a puppy

Not to sound too callous here, but when you have worked for a government who won't stop the worst shit imaginable from happening to innocent people when they have the means to do so, it makes it a little hard to comprehend how that same government would even lift a finger to look into the fate of one little puppy.

Is any of this making sense?

Are there a lot of IED attacks in Hawaii?

1-7

Fuck off RP, those puppies were brainwashed into carrying IEDs.

Also as an American I can say: killing humans is perfectly acceptable but killing puppies, kittens, or bunnies (provided they are cute) is not.

Readers of the Daily Mail have come to similar conclusions, apparently, and they're not even American.

Give it time, one day everyone will be an American.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 07, 2008, 09:35:19 PM

Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 07, 2008, 08:27:08 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 04, 2008, 07:12:29 PM
I concur.  Dog was dead.

May I ask why all of you are so gullible when it comes to things such as "puppies"?

Bullshit, that dog was alive.

1) It was moving when he held it.
2) It's legs were curled up which is something puppies do when they're picked up by the scruff of the neck. If it was dead and in that position, rigor mortis would have to have set in which can't be the case since as soon as the dog hits the air it begins flailing it's limbs.

Thanks for playing Shoop or Not a Shoop.

This guy is being investigated by the Marine Corp btw.

All apollogeez.  As much as I would enjoy ganking your chain on this, you must have missed the part where it was a  :troll: 

On a more serious note:

1) It was just a puppy
2) The fewer dogs the better
3) Dogs are being used to carry IEDs since Americans are so fucking gullible when it comes to dogs and shit
4) It was just a puppy
5) I'm sure they are going to crucify the poor bastard and leave his PTSD untreated when he gets out of Leavenworth.
6) You do realize that his primary job is to kill human beings, right?
7) It was just a puppy

Not to sound too callous here, but when you have worked for a government who won't stop the worst shit imaginable from happening to innocent people when they have the means to do so, it makes it a little hard to comprehend how that same government would even lift a finger to look into the fate of one little puppy.

Is any of this making sense?

umm...

you're a fucking fucktard. KYSFTB.

is any of THIS making sense?

Quote from: Cain on March 07, 2008, 09:50:19 PM
Are there a lot of IED attacks in Hawaii?

They were doing combat ops in Hawaii?  I remember it being... greener...

Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 07, 2008, 09:53:21 PM
1-7

Fuck off RP, those puppies were brainwashed into carrying IEDs.

:lulz:

Quote
Also as an American I can say: killing humans is perfectly acceptable but killing puppies, kittens, or bunnies (provided they are cute) is not.

That's racist!  What do you have against coyotes and wolves?  They make puppies, too!

Quote from: Random Probability on March 07, 2008, 10:46:48 PM

Quote from: Cain on March 07, 2008, 09:50:19 PM
Are there a lot of IED attacks in Hawaii?

They were doing combat ops in Hawaii?  I remember it being... greener...

Dunno, cant remember the video, all I remember was hearing that it happened in Hawaii.  Might be true, might not be.

Quote from: Cain on March 07, 2008, 10:54:02 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 07, 2008, 10:46:48 PM

Quote from: Cain on March 07, 2008, 09:50:19 PM
Are there a lot of IED attacks in Hawaii?

They were doing combat ops in Hawaii?  I remember it being... greener...

Dunno, cant remember the video, all I remember was hearing that it happened in Hawaii.  Might be true, might not be.

I heard his wife moved to Hawaii in Feb '08.  That means he left Iraq no later than January.  The timing of the video release seems like his buddy had a copy and his buddy's wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/lesbian/gay/homosexual/transexual/bisexual/lover didn't like it and put it up on youtube.

How the fuck does her leaving in February mean that he left no later than January?

Maybe Hustle is onto something...

doesn't matter where the guy did it.
he's a douchebag jarhead.
(there's a difference between a marine and a jarhead so don't take offense plz)


I believe some parts of Hawaii are quite rocky and a little less green than others. Considering it's mostly a chain of volcanoes and all. It has it's pretty places and it's ugly ones.

Paging Agent Cainad....we have a special mission for you.

8)

Quote from: Ten Ton Mantis on March 08, 2008, 01:25:36 AM
How the fuck does her leaving in February mean that he left no later than January?

Maybe Hustle is onto something...

Here's how the military works.  He just did a tour in Iraq.  That means he has no less than 45 days leave accrued (assuming 18 months in-country) so he is going to want to take 30 days to be with family.  Plus he has to move his wife back out to Kaneohe Bay (she most likely stayed with relatives in the States while he was gone).

So... Rotates out in January, takes 30 days leave, moves his wife to Hawaii in February...  Ta-da!  Now it's today.

What I don't get in all of this is that people are somehow upset because a man who kills human beings for a living happened to have thrown a puppy.  There are much more important things to worry about, you know.

well let me try to explain why a person would be upset over a man killing an animal that really had no way of defending itself, had no idea what was happening to it, doesn't understand the concept of "war on turrurrrrr" .... oh wait. just did.

to me, people who do that kind of shit are weak little pussies.
seriously.

"ooh look at me, big tough guy, gonna throw this defenseless animal like a rag doll, all my buddies will laugh, har har *choke on my own vomit* har!"

it just reminds me of the boy that lived down the street when i was a kid.

caught a frog and showed it to me, then ripped a leg off for no reason.
i gave him a black eye, he went runnin home to his mommy and she came over yellin at my parents about how I was a monster.


i just dont care for animal abuse.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 08, 2008, 05:51:28 PM
What I don't get in all of this is that people are somehow upset because a man who kills human beings for a living happened to have thrown a puppy.

Well, sorry for not for not sharing your anthropocentrific worldview.

Quote from: Cthulhu's Squidling on March 08, 2008, 05:59:26 PM
well let me try to explain why a person would be upset over a man killing an animal that really had no way of defending itself, had no idea what was happening to it, doesn't understand the concept of "war on turrurrrrr"

qft

Quote from: triple zero on March 06, 2008, 02:36:05 PM

Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2008, 04:20:48 PMthis isnt as bad as pictures of the woman who crushed the cat in her high heels.
She turned up dead in a river strangled after 4chan found out about it.

wow really?

is the story about that on ED?

cause i saw that pic and was like UGH

otoh i wouldn't want to meet the freak that strangled her.

I read it on SA, look up kitten crusher in ed, it might be there.
And I get a sickening feeling the guy who wacked her probably had a fedora and got really passionate when people knock anime.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 08, 2008, 05:51:28 PM
What I don't get in all of this is that people are somehow upset because a man who kills human beings for a living happened to have thrown a puppy.  There are much more important things to worry about, you know.

all people who are marines kill puppies daily.

Quote from: Faust on March 10, 2008, 12:28:54 AM

Quote from: triple zero on March 06, 2008, 02:36:05 PM

Quote from: Faust on March 05, 2008, 04:20:48 PMthis isnt as bad as pictures of the woman who crushed the cat in her high heels.
She turned up dead in a river strangled after 4chan found out about it.

wow really?

is the story about that on ED?

cause i saw that pic and was like UGH

otoh i wouldn't want to meet the freak that strangled her.

I read it on SA, look up kitten crusher in ed, it might be there.
And I get a sickening feeling the guy who wacked her probably had a fedora and got really passionate when people knock anime.

can't find it in ED, but google shows some hits.

i'll read it another day.

Quote from: Cthulhu's Squidling on March 08, 2008, 05:59:26 PM
well let me try to explain why a person would be upset over a man killing an animal that really had no way of defending itself, had no idea what was happening to it, doesn't understand the concept of "war on turrurrrrr" .... oh wait. just did.

to me, people who do that kind of shit are weak little pussies.
seriously.

"ooh look at me, big tough guy, gonna throw this defenseless animal like a rag doll, all my buddies will laugh, har har *choke on my own vomit* har!"

Ah, so if it had been a full grown dog, then it would be okay.  I get it. 

And just so you know, I'm not defending what that idiot did.  Getting filmed doing that kind of shit is only slightly more stupid than doing it in the first place.  My point is that it just doesn't matter.  Tossing an animal is a non-event compared to the abuse the government heaps upon human beings as a matter of official policy.  I find it laughable that in the midst of all that human misery, so many people will waste their time and effort to crucify one man instead of doing something actually worthwhile.

Just saying....

Quote from: Random Probability on March 10, 2008, 05:19:14 PMTossing an animal is a non-event compared to the abuse the government heaps upon human beings as a matter of official policy. 

To you, but not to everyone.  Some people think any sort of abuse is not needed.

At the very least, there is some reason (be it inane) for the abuse being heaped on people in the middle east during this war, but what in the name of all that is holy has this stupid puppy got to do with any of it?

I think it's a fine line between the type of person who would do this, and the type of person who participates in something like the My Lai massacre.

Quote from: Hoopla on March 10, 2008, 05:40:14 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 10, 2008, 05:19:14 PMTossing an animal is a non-event compared to the abuse the government heaps upon human beings as a matter of official policy. 

To you, but not to everyone.  Some people think any sort of abuse is not needed.

At the very least, there is some reason (be it inane) for the abuse being heaped on people in the middle east during this war, but what in the name of all that is holy has this stupid puppy got to do with any of it?

I think it's a fine line between the type of person who would do this, and the type of person who participates in something like the My Lai massacre.

Glad you brought that up.  There is no fine line.  Hell, the type of person who would go to, say, Stanford or Berkeley is the type of person to pull a "My Lai" or even just an "Abu Ghraib".  They've even done studies to prove it.

I'm fairly certain, given the unwarranted level of emotional bullshit surrounding this issue, that the Marine in question is going to get severely buttraped by the Powers That Be (they're funny that way about PR when elections are coming up).  Contrast that with this other Marine I know who tested out his nifty M-2 (that's a 50 caliber machine gun) on a hapless camel during Desert Storm.  Same end result: a dead animal.  The difference is that my friend only had to pay for the camel ($2700 if you're interested, which was about three month's pay).

Seriously, I find this whole "it was a PUP-PEEE!!!!zomg!!!" bullshit a little tiresome.

Link to the studies showing no line, pls.

I would guess RP is referencing the Stanford prison Experiment:

http://www.prisonexp.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

I don't think it 'proves' that anyone will act the same... but it does provide some indication that at least some humans will behave in ways that they normally would not in positions of direct physical power over others.

There's a difference between people with a predisposition for sociopathic behavior who do fucked up things like this regardless of their circumstances, and people who get put in fucked up circumstances and act like sociopaths.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 10, 2008, 06:25:18 PM

Quote from: Hoopla on March 10, 2008, 05:40:14 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 10, 2008, 05:19:14 PMTossing an animal is a non-event compared to the abuse the government heaps upon human beings as a matter of official policy. 

To you, but not to everyone.  Some people think any sort of abuse is not needed.

At the very least, there is some reason (be it inane) for the abuse being heaped on people in the middle east during this war, but what in the name of all that is holy has this stupid puppy got to do with any of it?

I think it's a fine line between the type of person who would do this, and the type of person who participates in something like the My Lai massacre.

Glad you brought that up.  There is no fine line.  Hell, the type of person who would go to, say, Stanford or Berkeley is the type of person to pull a "My Lai" or even just an "Abu Ghraib".  They've even done studies to prove it.

I'm fairly certain, given the unwarranted level of emotional bullshit surrounding this issue, that the Marine in question is going to get severely buttraped by the Powers That Be (they're funny that way about PR when elections are coming up).  Contrast that with this other Marine I know who tested out his nifty M-2 (that's a 50 caliber machine gun) on a hapless camel during Desert Storm.  Same end result: a dead animal.  The difference is that my friend only had to pay for the camel ($2700 if you're interested, which was about three month's pay).

Seriously, I find this whole "it was a PUP-PEEE!!!!zomg!!!" bullshit a little tiresome.

Well if a study shows it, then it MUST be true!

Also, I don't care if it was a puppy, a full grown dog, a llama, an ostrich or an 85 year old grandmother, life is life.  No excuse.

The American military doesn't need ANY kind of negative exposure right now, let alone one of its soldiers indiscriminantly killing something which could not defend itself.

Now its time for you to make the "beef and leather" argument . . . please proceed.

Quote from: Netaungrot on March 10, 2008, 07:01:57 PM
There's a difference between people with a predisposition for sociopathic behavior who do fucked up things like this regardless of their circumstances, and people who get put in fucked up circumstances and act like sociopaths.

Well I think Random Probability was saying that under the circumstances of Mai Lai, anyone normal psychopath, average sociopath, or what once considered itself a normal sane and moral human being... may well act in the same manner. As for the difference you're claiming... I agree that there obviously is one, but I'm not sure that its as large as many people would like to think.

As for the Marine in the video... he may have been a perfectly normal guy 10 years ago... he may have had a pet puppy that he loved as much as you and I would. If could be that X number of years of being trained to kill, being conditioned to accept death as acceptable and seeing comrades die (assuming that this guy actually served in combat)... may well desensitize any of us to the point that puppy flinging might register as teh funnay rather than horrific. We don't know what situations that Marine has been in, we don't know if he saw havlf his platoon fly through the air as an IED shattered bones, shredded flesh and took lives. We don't know that this guy didn't end up on the clean up crew after a particularly nasty suicide bomb in a crowded marketplace. We have no idea what he's experienced, who he was before he experienced it or what may have led to his puppy flinging behavior. That doesn't excuse the behavior... not in the slightest. We are all responsible for our own actions.

However, it may mean that we aren't able to meaningfully shove him into Box A (sociopath), Box B (psychopath) or Box C (Normal Dude that got his brain fucked by war)... which leaves us only with Box D (WTF?).

I think someone should fling this marine off of a cliff.

I also think it would be a shame if an NSRA agent went to the WA State penitentiary in Monroe (the same town in which our Marine lives) with "advertisements" informing the day's batch of newly-released inmates that there was a new "massage parlor" operating at a certain address in Monroe.

Quote from: Hoopla on March 10, 2008, 07:39:29 PM
Now its time for you to make the "beef and leather" argument . . . please proceed.

um

if there would have been a big enough pile of beef and leather somewhere further down that cliff, the puppy might have had a softer landing and survived?

am i doing it right?

and if they had kept this puppy, he'd have needed a leash made of leather and eat beef every day.

do you even get beef if you're stationed there?

- 000,
just as tired of this discussion as the rest of you. puppy throwing = bad.

Quote from: Hoopla on March 10, 2008, 07:39:29 PM
Now its time for you to make the "beef and leather" argument . . . please proceed.

"Beef & Leather"... sounds like something Aini would say.    :fap: :lulz:

Quote from: Hoopla on March 10, 2008, 07:39:29 PM
Now its time for you to make the "beef and leather" argument . . . please proceed.

OOH OOH!!! I know this one!!!

OK...umm...

if we just let the cows roam freely, then there wouldn't be any more wars so marines wouldn't have to relieve their combat stress by murdering puppies!!

If we allowed the cows to wander freely, puppies with a death wish would naturally make their way to psychopathic marines (via osmosis), curing world hunger.

Or something.

 :lulz:

:lulz:

Quote from: Random Probability on March 10, 2008, 05:19:14 PM

Quote from: Cthulhu's Squidling on March 08, 2008, 05:59:26 PM
well let me try to explain why a person would be upset over a man killing an animal that really had no way of defending itself, had no idea what was happening to it, doesn't understand the concept of "war on turrurrrrr" .... oh wait. just did.

to me, people who do that kind of shit are weak little pussies.
seriously.

"ooh look at me, big tough guy, gonna throw this defenseless animal like a rag doll, all my buddies will laugh, har har *choke on my own vomit* har!"

Ah, so if it had been a full grown dog, then it would be okay.  I get it. 

And just so you know, I'm not defending what that idiot did.  Getting filmed doing that kind of shit is only slightly more stupid than doing it in the first place.  My point is that it just doesn't matter.  Tossing an animal is a non-event compared to the abuse the government heaps upon human beings as a matter of official policy.  I find it laughable that in the midst of all that human misery, so many people will waste their time and effort to crucify one man instead of doing something actually worthwhile.

Just saying....

never mentioned puppy or full grown dog.
i said animal
don't care if it's a spider-dog-camel-puppy-cat-elephant-horse-rhino-bee
it's douche baggery. period.

Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2008, 11:29:32 PM
If we allowed the cows to wander freely, puppies with a death wish would naturally make their way to psychopathic marines (via osmosis), curing world hunger.

Or something.

and  :lulz: :lulz:

I guess some people just don't get it.

Marines don't just put on the uniform and go out to shoot and get shot at.  Theres a lot of training and desensitisation goes into churning out marines.

I suspect they did Kittens and Puppies as part of basic training.

Until you have hurled 100 puppies of a cliff without shedding a tear you really can't place yourselves in this brave mans steel toecapped boots.

Support our brave puppy throwers!  It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.


~Fing Feng III

You know an argument I think is totally shrill, whiny, and retarded? The "It's lame to care about this issue because worse things happen" argument. Basically, it's the "EVERYONE IN THE WORLD SHOULD CARE ABOUT WHAT I CARE ABOUT OR THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE" argument in a new, stupider package.

meh i think there are more retarded arguments being made in the world than to care about that one.

Quote from: triple zero on March 11, 2008, 03:05:16 PM
meh i think there are more retarded arguments being made in the world than to care about that one.

LOL  :lulz:

I just don't like dogs at any age unless they think they're cats.  However, I'm against torturing animals to the point where I'm entertaining the idea of eating vegetarian once I find a vegetarian diet that I can live with.

As for "beef and leather", I'm not a rabid PETArd.

As for the rape issue, Hoopla, I hope you are raped by a rabid pack of dogs or models who would rather be naked than wear fur.

Quote from: Nigel on March 11, 2008, 02:42:54 PM
You know an argument I think is totally shrill, whiny, and retarded? The "It's lame to care about this issue because worse things happen" argument. Basically, it's the "EVERYONE IN THE WORLD SHOULD CARE ABOUT WHAT I CARE ABOUT OR THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE" argument in a new, stupider package.

I disagree.  It just highlights a much bigger issue.  That we have governments that dehumanise people in the first place... we create an army of desensitised killers and set them loose on others.

Then we bring them home in such a state that they cannot relate to anything or anyone...

... what do you expect happens next.

A single puppy is pretty much irrelevant when you have a planet full of angry primates caving each others skulls with rocks.  Sure, we can relate to the puppy so thats what we choose to focus on... unfortunately, there are monstrous folk around who would quite cheerfully throw our puppy loving asses after it.

THE PUPPY AINT THE ISSUE


~Fing Fing III

I can't access it now, but over at jj.am, there's a gif that mashes the puppy thrower with the final scene of StarWars4.

It's pretty funny.

Quote from: FingFeng on March 11, 2008, 04:30:13 PM

Quote from: Nigel on March 11, 2008, 02:42:54 PM
You know an argument I think is totally shrill, whiny, and retarded? The "It's lame to care about this issue because worse things happen" argument. Basically, it's the "EVERYONE IN THE WORLD SHOULD CARE ABOUT WHAT I CARE ABOUT OR THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE" argument in a new, stupider package.

I disagree.  It just highlights a much bigger issue.  That we have governments that dehumanise people in the first place... we create an army of desensitised killers and set them loose on others.

Then we bring them home in such a state that they cannot relate to anything or anyone...

... what do you expect happens next.

A single puppy is pretty much irrelevant when you have a planet full of angry primates caving each others skulls with rocks.  Sure, we can relate to the puppy so thats what we choose to focus on... unfortunately, there are monstrous folk around who would quite cheerfully throw our puppy loving asses after it.

THE PUPPY AINT THE ISSUE


~Fing Fing III

Right.

Senseless cruelty and violence begets senseless cruelty and violence. Therefore it is valid to be concerned about all acts of senseless cruelty and violence, however small.

Otherwise, we fall into the "I beat my dog, but my neighbor beats his kids so I'm OK" trap.

Exhorting people to be blind to the small cruelties BECAUSE there are bigger ones is either a very lame joke or an overt act of violence promotion.

Come on, Nigel, why not lower that bar humanity is always trying to lower even further?  People are SUPPOSED to aspire to the lowest common denominator, right?  Why bother trying to protest otherwise when shit's gonna happen ANYWAY?

/tongue firmly planted in cheek

 :lulz:

if this war would have been fought in OUTER SPACE like we've been promised for, oh i dunno, FIVE DECADES OR SO, the puppy would have been weightless and NONE of this would have mattered.

Coincidentally, the banning of the militarization of space dates back 5 decades or so.  And both China and the USA have broken the treaty in the past year.

Perhaps I was attempting to make too fine a point.  Also, I apparently neglected to wax sufficiently verbose to convey my sentiments.  My apologies for the confusion.

By your comments I can only conclude that none of you have been in the military, nor do you really know anybody who is or was in the military at some point in their life.  It is equally obvious that somewhere along the line a few of you became firmly entrenched with the meme "all military personal are brainwashed into being mindless killing machines".  All of you are intelligent enough to realize that such a belief is every bit as ignorant as the meme "all niggers are thieving motherfuckers" or "all women are whores".  Be that as it may, these are your beliefs so I suppose I should "respect" your beliefs, such as they are.

Of course, this is the internet after all, but it is also a Discordian forum, so I'm not sure what to think here.  At least this thread is mildly interesting.  Am I to take it that the Puppy Shot Put is "serious bizniz", eh what?

no one said anything about a generalization of all the military are killing machines, it was you who implied it.
I see a video of a prick throwing a dog off a cliff, i judge him to be scum.

Quote from: triple zero on March 11, 2008, 03:05:16 PM
meh i think there are more retarded arguments being made in the world than to care about that one.

:mittens:

Quote from: Random Probability on March 11, 2008, 08:45:48 PM
Perhaps I was attempting to make too fine a point.  Also, I apparently neglected to wax sufficiently verbose to convey my sentiments.  My apologies for the confusion.

By your comments I can only conclude that none of you have been in the military, nor do you really know anybody who is or was in the military at some point in their life.  It is equally obvious that somewhere along the line a few of you became firmly entrenched with the meme "all military personal are brainwashed into being mindless killing machines".  All of you are intelligent enough to realize that such a belief is every bit as ignorant as the meme "all niggers are thieving motherfuckers" or "all women are whores".  Be that as it may, these are your beliefs so I suppose I should "respect" your beliefs, such as they are.

Of course, this is the internet after all, but it is also a Discordian forum, so I'm not sure what to think here.  At least this thread is mildly interesting.  Am I to take it that the Puppy Shot Put is "serious bizniz", eh what?

Oh look at you master those sweeping generalizations! Well done.

My father is career Army, my sister is a Marine, my brothers are Army.

Whatever your point is, you are still failing to make it.

Quote from: Faust on March 11, 2008, 08:50:33 PM
no one said anything about a generalization of all the military are killing machines, it was you who implied it.
I see a video of a prick throwing a dog off a cliff, i judge him to be scum.

Actually it was Fing Feng who put that thought out there.

Quote from: Nigel on March 11, 2008, 10:26:41 PM
Oh look at you master those sweeping generalizations! Well done.

My father is career Army, my sister is a Marine, my brothers are Army.

Whatever your point is, you are still failing to make it.

My comment was more directed at Feng, but... meh.

You're right, I'm not making a point, and I should be.  We have a saying "What happens in the field, stays in the field".   The thing is, at the time it happened everybody had to know about it.  His fireteam leader knew, all of his squadmates knew, and his squad leader knew.  They had to.  Especially about something like that (with video even).

Getting into what causes things like this to happen, well... that's a bit more complicated.  Is killing an animal cruel?  That's debatable.  It isn't pleasant, but that's our "civilized" view of death.  I won't argue that aspect of it.  What I see at the heart of it all is a severe difference of opinion on the sanctity of life.  I can't even begin to explain what it's like in combat.  I don't have the words for it.  Learning to function in the face of constant mind numbing fear has a very significant effect on the way people think.  When human life has no real value and can be revoked instantly and without warning, it becomes impossible to really give a shit about things that don't mean anything like birds and insects and even puppies. 

Was the guy out of line?  Yeah, a little bit.  It's not the kind of image the folks back home like to see.  Does it make him a shithead?  Meh.  I don't know him, so I can't say for sure.  Then again, none of you can either.

Questions I'd like to have answered: Where did the puppy come from?  Where was its owner?  Where was its mother?  Was she dead so the puppy was doomed anyway?  What did LCpl. Motari's platoon leader do about the situation at the time?  Was the owner reimbursed for his loss of property?  Was the owner already dead because he was an insurgent?

If LCpl. Motari has already faced Office Hours for the incident, prosecuting him just to satisfy the bloodlust of the folks back home is both illegal and immoral.  But this is an emotional issue, isn't it....  Or is it?

(http://www.albertastars.com/userphotos/1233_3238_R.JPG)

Even more simple than I imagined.  How about that.

meh. just like the "favor" we did for the Iraqis.

I'm glad that he felt particularly creative that day.  :roll:

It seems as if he's sorry for getting caught
but not really sorry for what he did.

im sure the dog understood the aesthetic value of being thrown off a cliff as it plummeted instead of an abrupt death by gunfire.

Perhaps he should have glued googly eyes all over the dog and called it a conversation piece?

Mm-hmm

I suspected as much.  Shoot the dog you say?  You mean like this:
Dog hit by car (http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/dog-cruelty-01.wmv)
or
Dog house-to-house (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=54e_1182844511)
or
Rabid dog in Iraq (http://www.flicklife.com/view_video.php?viewkey=c3e67286080500df36a9&flag=F)

as tempting as dog-cruelty-01.wmv sounds i think i'll pass.
you win, he had no other choice but to throw that dog down that cliff, god bless all the benevolent troops of the world

Quote from: Faust on March 12, 2008, 01:44:15 AM
as tempting as dog-cruelty-01.wmv sounds i think i'll pass.
you win, he had no other choice but to throw that dog down that cliff, god bless all the benevolent troops of the world

The file was named by some PETArd half-wit who either didn't get or ignored the full story.  Some soldiers attempted to humanely put down a dog that had been hit by a car.  Unfortunately their weapons proved insufficient to the task.  It seems assault rifles are made to wound and nine millimeter pistols are made to kill.  Go figure.  Maybe they should have just left it alone, or sent it financial aid or something.

Nice wording in your reply, btw.  Did it ever occur to you that... never mind.  You want to keep your precious world paradigm.  Ignorance being bliss and all that.

Oh, btw, I do apologize for not being more clear earlier.  I'm at work and flipping randomly back and forth between simulations, so I'm haven't been concentrating.  I just wanted to be the one to throw up the "bullshit flag" on this one.

~kthxbye

Quote from: saint aini on March 11, 2008, 04:18:03 PM
As for the rape issue, Hoopla, I hope you are raped by a rabid pack of dogs or models who would rather be naked than wear fur.

. . . thanks?

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 12:19:56 AM
(http://www.albertastars.com/userphotos/1233_3238_R.JPG)

Even more simple than I imagined.  How about that.

OH THAT TOTALLY EXPLAINS EVERYTHING IN A PLAUSIBLE WAY!

Oh wait, it doesn't.

It's pricks like that who give a bad name to people like my dad and siblings, who DON'T ACT LIKE WAR IS A FUCKING VIDEO GAME.

You know what my dad thinks of guys like that? He'd as soon shoot them as the enemy, because they're a detriment. Oh, he made a mistake? There are no room for stupid, petty "mistakes" in a war.

like i said...

douchebag.

hey man, if gramma gets sick can we throw her off a cliff?

for the record, i too have military family.
dad went to korea, uncle to vietnam.

hmm....don't recall any animal abuse stories.
heard plenty of "lost a buddy there" stories and i don't like that shit either.

the US is at war with stray dogs?

I was really hoping they would invade Iran first
they've been dangling that possibility in front of me for some time now

We're fighting the stray dogs abroad so we dont have to fight them here!

Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2008, 10:47:21 AM
We're fighting the stray dogs abroad so we dont have to fight them here!

:mittens:



I note that Randoms comments were mainly aimed at me, so let me try to place my comments in context

Quote from: Random Probability on March 11, 2008, 08:45:48 PMBy your comments I can only conclude that none of you have been in the military, nor do you really know anybody who is or was in the military at some point in their life.  It is equally obvious that somewhere along the line a few of you became firmly entrenched with the meme "all military personal are brainwashed into being mindless killing machines".

I didn't say all, but war does tend to harden people and violence towards children, pets and loved ones is a sign of a growing inability to relate.  Military cousellors have to deal with this quite a lot as do civilian therapists at a time of conflict.

To answer the question I don't have any friends or relatives that have been in the military (unless you count my grandfather who was stationed in Burma during the big one).  I have however had to deal with people who have suffered from the effects of PTSD and I'm familiar with a lot of case studies on military emotional burnouts.

My comments regarding an inability to relate stand as a professional opinion.  They are also the opinion of many army doctors working in the british army so I feel the comments where pretty much justified.  The fact that you have relatives who do not (one assumes) have problems relating is hardly the issue.

It is a medical fact that many others do.

My point was that for them a 'fluffy pink bunny' would be despised because it represents a banality and is representative of the part of them that was taken away.  They've been 'somewhere else' and it is somewhere VERY difficult to come back from.  Again, not all... but it is certainly a very real symptom of such cases.

Of course, I guess there are some things you just don't talk about in the corps.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 11, 2008, 08:45:48 PM
All of you are intelligent enough to realize that such a belief is every bit as ignorant as the meme "all niggers are thieving motherfuckers" or "all women are whores".  Be that as it may, these are your beliefs so I suppose I should "respect" your beliefs, such as they are.

My belief is that it is all too easy to go gooey eyed over a puppy but considerably more difficult to understand the stresses and frustrations of the man who threw it.  The typical reaction ?  Lynch him.

I still say the puppy isn't the issue.  The US is on a merry rampage and the guys paying for it are the ones on the front lines... when they come home, expect many more puppies thrown.

I had to deal with a lot of people (even after the Falklands for example) a few familes, relatives and the men and women themselves.  A lot of figurative puppies got thrown and a lot of families broke up as a result.

Whilst I may not have your view, the view I have is certainly a considered one.

That said, I may not have aired it in the best way and for that I apologise.


~Fing Feng III

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 01:50:24 AM
Nice wording in your reply, btw.  Did it ever occur to you that... never mind.  You want to keep your precious world paradigm.  Ignorance being bliss and all that.

my precious world paradigm? Tell me more about my views which i have not expressed. I know the kind of shit that goes on, a lot of which is completely ignored by our wonderful supermen the military, people disappear into camps in africa, i watched the video of the reporter being raped with the broken bottle by whatever little junta was in at the time and the countless videos of troops being killed in iraq, I know what kind of shit they face out there and the brutality that troops can face on a daily basis. I know the effects violence have on a troop, my father was thrown in at nineteen years of age to fight against Turkey, he never sadistically killed any animals though.
I'm not squeamish to death killed, I worked in my uncles abattoir when i was six and the first time I saw a man hanged was around the same time.
Even if he had to kill the dog rather then keep it, regardless of what you say about how the bullets would fail to kill the dog immediately, I am still pretty certain its less barbaric then having the creature plummet.

I hate unecessary cruelty an suffering.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 11, 2008, 11:45:53 PMYou're right, I'm not making a point, and I should be.  We have a saying "What happens in the field, stays in the field".

why?

QuoteWas the guy out of line?  Yeah, a little bit. 

just a tiiiiiiny littlebit

WTF MAN, HE THREW A PUPPY OFF A CLIFF

and he's not even sorry for it. no he's sorry that it was shown.

also that puppy in the video sure looks sick.

QuoteDoes it make him a shithead?  Meh.  I don't know him, so I can't say for sure.  Then again, none of you can either.

of course it makes him a shithead.

how can you doubt this? even if the guy was doing the puppy a favour by killing it, any mercy-kill is supposed to show some fucking respect. it doesn't seem like he was in a particular hurry like "oshit i gotta kill this puppy right now, there's no time to do it properly, let's throw it off the cliff then", so, yes, overlooking that sort of thing is pretty much what makes people a shithead.

QuoteIf LCpl. Motari has already faced Office Hours for the incident, prosecuting him just to satisfy the bloodlust of the folks back home is both illegal and immoral.  But this is an emotional issue, isn't it....  Or is it?

no this is about retarded persons like you that keep digging for excuses for some shithead that threw a puppy of a cliff.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 01:50:24 AMUnfortunately their weapons proved insufficient to the task.  It seems assault rifles are made to wound and nine millimeter pistols are made to kill.  Go figure.

so, wait. are these the same soldiers that went through rigorous training and brainwashing (like puppy throwing 101), and they couldn't use their guns to off one dog? [and no, i don't really want to watch that vid either]

if "assault rifles are made to wound" and not to kill, how come these soldiers didn't know about that? sounds like a good thing they figured out this trivial detail while trying to kill a dog and not in an actual combat situation or anything ..  :roll:

Ok, I've seen the video.

Before the guy throws the dog off the cliff, he turns to the cameral and smiles.

A soldier who was putting a sick/wounded dog out of it's misery out of a sense of compassion probably wouldn't be happy about it.

I remember Nova did a feature after Gulf War I where they talked about the environmental havoc Saddam's army wreaked on Kuwait.  One thing they showed was how a bunch of the Iraqi soldiers had set up shop in a Kuwait zoo.  They showed some Camel carcasses that had obviously been used for target practice.  (that is the Camels were alive when they were used as targets).  Anyway, this thread reminded me of that. 

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 12, 2008, 02:02:06 PM
I remember Nova did a feature after Gulf War I where they talked about the environmental havoc Saddam's army wreaked on Kuwait.  One thing they showed was how a bunch of the Iraqi soldiers had set up shop in a Kuwait zoo.  They showed some Camel carcasses that had obviously been used for target practice.  (that is the Camels were alive when they were used as targets).  Anyway, this thread reminded me of that. 

That's what war does, on both sides of the fence.

Quote from: triple zero on March 12, 2008, 01:47:10 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 11, 2008, 11:45:53 PMYou're right, I'm not making a point, and I should be.  We have a saying "What happens in the field, stays in the field".

why?

QuoteWas the guy out of line?  Yeah, a little bit.

just a tiiiiiiny littlebit

WTF MAN, HE THREW A PUPPY OFF A CLIFF

Yeah, but what happens in the field... blah  :roll:

Basically, these guys have gone through hell and back and they are pretty fucked up.  Anyone who thinks not should consider that the Falklands Conflict (which was a really minor scuffle in the scheme of things) ... resulted in around 250 british deaths in the zone and around 300 suicides after returning home.  Despite being NOTHING LIKE what these guys have been going through in shitholes like Afghanistan.

And when I say suicides we're not talking freshfaced impressionable kids here, we're talking about 2-Para and 42-Commando squadron.  what they went through was nothing like the hellholes of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.  So honestly, expect that puppies WILL get thrown... both literally and figuratively.

War makes people do things like this.  It makes them come back and beat on their kids and wives.  It makes hard Paratroop Reg't and Commando Reg't commit suicide in peace time because they just can't connect with society anymore... it makes people hate anything that reminds them of the part of themselves they lost.

You'd think after Vietnam most Americans would realise the true cost of war.


So, the guy threw a puppy off a cliff... big deal.  There's a well understood mechanism at play here and it is one the army always downplays.  They HAVE to cus can't have a well adjusted killing machine with a social conscience.

The rational reaction would be to comfort it then break its neck in a single move (Marines certainly shouldn't have a problem with this) or to expend two rounds into its skull... hurling it off a cliff is an example of how PTSD manifests itself as the inability to connect, empathise and care.

It isn't realy surprising though since empathy, social conscience and humane standards of decency and care can quickly kill a man on the front line.

The problem is that we place these men and women in such shitty situations and then demand that they show some humanity.  Trust me, you can have one or the other but not both... either an ape with an assault rifle and no emotion... or a man who sheds a respectful tear over a wounded puppy.

Hence my comments which Random appears to have taken to heart.


Whilst I may feel bad for the puppy, I cannot blame the man.  The problem is twisted foreign policy and the ritual dehumanising of individuals in pursuit of economic advantages for the rich.



~Fing Feng III
'red for blood , white for glory , and blue... for a boy' - R McGough (from Why patriots are a bit nuts in the head)

If we could harness DUMB as a form of fuel, this thread would be a fucking GOLDMINE.

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 02:31:04 PM

Whilst I may feel bad for the puppy, I cannot blame the man.  The problem is twisted foreign policy and the ritual dehumanising of individuals in pursuit of economic advantages for the rich.

I gotta disagree Fing Fing... We are, all of us, responsible for our actions. Sure there may be twisted policy, dehumanizing training, horrific conditions... however, he voluntarily signed up for all of it. It's not like PTSD is some brand new thing, or psychological damage to soldiers is an unknown, that he can't be blamed for.

Every soldier must take personal responsibility for every death they cause, just like any other human. Having the blessing of some social/tribal system and wearing a fancy jacket doesn't change that.

QuoteThe problem is twisted foreign policy and the ritual dehumanising of individuals in pursuit of economic advantages for the rich.

I think the problem is a little more personal than that. Blaming the government isn't much different than blaming the soldier. Either way, we're passing the buck on the whole situation, which is why we didn't learn from Vietnam or any other war. Instead of taking responsibility for the government that sends these people off to war, we keep electing the same bullshit politicians, and then blaming them when it all goes wrong. And instead of recognizing that making people into killing machines does wonky things to their brain, and sending them into horrific situations does even more fucked up things, we just send them home, where they have to throw a puppy off a cliff before we realize that maybe that's not such a good idea.  :argh!:

QuoteSure there may be twisted policy, dehumanizing training, horrific conditions... however, he voluntarily signed up for all of it.

Perhaps. Or maybe he got recruited under the premise that by signing up, he would have his education paid for, get to see a bit of the world, and have a chance to get the hell out of his hometown.

Quote from: Roo on March 12, 2008, 02:54:24 PM

QuoteSure there may be twisted policy, dehumanizing training, horrific conditions... however, he voluntarily signed up for all of it.

Perhaps. Or maybe he got recruited under the premise that by signing up, he would have his education paid for, get to see a bit of the world, and have a chance to get the hell out of his hometown.

And that somehow magically changes the fact that this guy volunteered to join a organization that is trained, designed and used for mass murder? I do not accept the "Dur, those poor boys got tricked into joining" bullshit. Maybe we could make that argument in the 50's, when WWII was still fresh in the minds of individuals. Now though, after Korea, after Vietnam, after a generation of wars for corporate interests... naivety seems like a silly excuse to me.

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 12, 2008, 03:09:41 PMAnd that somehow magically changes the fact that this guy volunteered to join a organization that is trained, designed and used for mass murder? I do not accept the "Dur, those poor boys got tricked into joining" bullshit. Maybe we could make that argument in the 50's, when WWII was still fresh in the minds of individuals. Now though, after Korea, after Vietnam, after a generation of wars for corporate interests... naivety seems like a silly excuse to me.

I think you're forgetting that the UN changed the face of the US Army role until just recently.

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 12, 2008, 02:42:09 PM

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 02:31:04 PM
Whilst I may feel bad for the puppy, I cannot blame the man.  The problem is twisted foreign policy and the ritual dehumanising of individuals in pursuit of economic advantages for the rich.

I gotta disagree Fing Fing... We are, all of us, responsible for our actions. Sure there may be twisted policy, dehumanizing training, horrific conditions... however, he voluntarily signed up for all of it. It's not like PTSD is some brand new thing, or psychological damage to soldiers is an unknown, that he can't be blamed for.

Every soldier must take personal responsibility for every death they cause, just like any other human. Having the blessing of some social/tribal system and wearing a fancy jacket doesn't change that.

I see where you're coming from but I'm not entirely sure that most marines DID sign up for this.  The US army has, since vietnam, tried to be seen as a policing force... For a long time there was the feeling that the UN meant that most of their work would be blue-capped... peace keeping and the like.  I'm sure a lot of people signed up thinking they were making a difference for good in the world.

And, as Roo points out, the recruiters advertise it very well as a chance to make the most of yourself, to become self reliant, educated, assertive and to see the world... they are quick to tell you that the modern army is all about education, skills and self-betterment.

They tend not to mention the rampant PTSD problems, the suicides and the familial breakdowns which DO occur.


I do understand what you're saying, that this doesn't absolve him of a personal moral responsibility... I'm just saying that I can see clearly how such concepts can disintegrate.  More people commited suicide after the Falklands than were killed on active duty... this shows the extreme mental states that exist at a time of war and that such extreme states can persist far into peacetime.

Yes, it was horrible, it was senseless, it was cold and callous... Yet I find it difficult to blame the man on a whim, based on some standard of morality we civilians can afford.  You've got to be pretty cold to get the job done and he's in a very different place to you and I.

Even when he comes home, he will likely carry all of this with him... just like countless others he may experience guilt, self-loathing, anger and a difficulty relating to society or even his own family.  I hardly see those effects of war as voluntary.

But thats just my take.  Perhaps it is just my duty as a healthcare professional to neither blame nor absolve but just try to understand.  If I was anyone else I'd probably just kneejerk about the fate of the puppy.


~Fing Feng III

So vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

Sounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

If we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 03:16:37 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 12, 2008, 03:09:41 PMAnd that somehow magically changes the fact that this guy volunteered to join a organization that is trained, designed and used for mass murder? I do not accept the "Dur, those poor boys got tricked into joining" bullshit. Maybe we could make that argument in the 50's, when WWII was still fresh in the minds of individuals. Now though, after Korea, after Vietnam, after a generation of wars for corporate interests... naivety seems like a silly excuse to me.

I think you're forgetting that the UN changed the face of the US Army role until just recently.

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 12, 2008, 02:42:09 PM

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 02:31:04 PM
Whilst I may feel bad for the puppy, I cannot blame the man.  The problem is twisted foreign policy and the ritual dehumanising of individuals in pursuit of economic advantages for the rich.

I gotta disagree Fing Fing... We are, all of us, responsible for our actions. Sure there may be twisted policy, dehumanizing training, horrific conditions... however, he voluntarily signed up for all of it. It's not like PTSD is some brand new thing, or psychological damage to soldiers is an unknown, that he can't be blamed for.

Every soldier must take personal responsibility for every death they cause, just like any other human. Having the blessing of some social/tribal system and wearing a fancy jacket doesn't change that.

I see where you're coming from but I'm not entirely sure that most marines DID sign up for this.  The US army has, since vietnam, tried to be seen as a policing force... For a long time there was the feeling that the UN meant that most of their work would be blue-capped... peace keeping and the like.  I'm sure a lot of people signed up thinking they were making a difference for good in the world.

And, as Roo points out, the recruiters advertise it very well as a chance to make the most of yourself, to become self reliant, educated, assertive and to see the world... they are quick to tell you that the modern army is all about education, skills and self-betterment.

They tend not to mention the rampant PTSD problems, the suicides and the familial breakdowns which DO occur.


I do understand what you're saying, that this doesn't absolve him of a personal moral responsibility... I'm just saying that I can see clearly how such concepts can disintegrate.  More people commited suicide after the Falklands than were killed on active duty... this shows the extreme mental states that exist at a time of war and that such extreme states can persist far into peacetime.

Yes, it was horrible, it was senseless, it was cold and callous... Yet I find it difficult to blame the man on a whim, based on some standard of morality we civilians can afford.  You've got to be pretty cold to get the job done and he's in a very different place to you and I.

Even when he comes home, he will likely carry all of this with him... just like countless others he may experience guilt, self-loathing, anger and a difficulty relating to society or even his own family.  I hardly see those effects of war as voluntary.

But thats just my take.  Perhaps it is just my duty as a healthcare professional to neither blame nor absolve but just try to understand.  If I was anyone else I'd probably just kneejerk about the fate of the puppy.


~Fing Feng III

Don't get me wrong. I completely understand how fucked this guys perception of reality has had to become as an active duty Marine. I have several friends that volunteered in one branch or the other and have been (or still are) in Iraq/Afghanistan. Yes, the recruiters might be assholes that paint pretty pictures. Maybe this Marine really did think that his work would help people.

However, at the end of the whole shebang... HE signed the paperwork. HE pulls the trigger. HE threw the puppy.

Responsibility doesn't mean that he came to this point all on his own in his one insane way... it just means that the person responsible for the state of his brain, the state of his emotions and the state of that puppy... is well, Him.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMSo vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

You may have missed the part where I said that I neither Absolve nor Condemn.  I just understand that this is a far bigger issue than some asshole thowing a puppy of a cliff cus he's obviously a cunt.  A lot of kids go out fresh-faced and full of optimism... and come back withdrawn angry and even suicidal.

War is a cunt.  kay?

My observation was more along the lines 'Well, we knew something like this would happen'

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMSounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

They don't.  See the falklands comment... a pretty minor skirmish, 250 dead in active duty... from those returning over 300 commited suicide, and many hundreds of families broke up because the survivors could no longer relate.

They DIDN'T come home.  They came back.  Big difference.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMIf we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

I tell you what, you go spend some time counselling these people and then come back.  You go talk to a family where the father returned from active duty a different person and then six months down the line puts a gun in his mouth and blows the back of his skull all over the walls.

Try telling them its his own damned fault for signing up.

Trust me, the world isn't black and white.  Get some time down the sharp end... either on the front line or dealing with the human aftermath... then you can come back and lecture either side on shitty arguments.


@ratatosk:

I see exactly where you're coming from, but I don't think things are so simple.  People don't CHOOSE to lose it, people don't CHOOSE to come home and kill themselves ... people just cope the best way they can and sometimes they go over the edge.

All warefare is peppered with incidents where people have gone 'over the edge' in the moment.  And returning home many carry all the crap with them.  Like I said, it is a tough job... but not many can achieve a balance between the brutal nature of the job and staying in touch with their humane side.  Way too many need long term counselling and even psychiatric treatment.

Look at tours in Vietnam and Northern Ireland where trust was a major issue and the enemy was often invisible.  The psychological effects of those environments in particular sent even the toughest of men right over the edge... no man has an iron will.

It is therefore perhaps a little too simple to say that they should all remain mentally strong enough to excercise moral judgement...   But I agree with you that in other circumstances it is what we expect generally of people.  The problem is when they come back many have stopped seeing themselves AS people and thats where problems start.


~Fing Feng III

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 03:50:49 PM

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMSo vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

You may have missed the part where I said that I neither Absolve nor Condemn.  I just understand that this is a far bigger issue than some asshole thowing a puppy of a cliff cus he's obviously a cunt.  A lot of kids go out fresh-faced and full of optimism... and come back withdrawn angry and even suicidal.

War is a cunt.  kay?

My observation was more along the lines 'Well, we knew something like this would happen'

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMSounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

They don't.  See the falklands comment... a pretty minor skirmish, 250 dead in active duty... from those returning over 300 commited suicide, and many hundreds of families broke up because the survivors could no longer relate.

They DIDN'T come home.  They came back.  Big difference.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMIf we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

I tell you what, you go spend some time counselling these people and then come back.  You go talk to a family where the father returned from active duty a different person and then six months down the line puts a gun in his mouth and blows the back of his skull all over the walls.

Try telling them its his own damned fault for signing up.

Trust me, the world isn't black and white.  Get some time down the sharp end... either on the front line or dealing with the human aftermath... then you can come back and lecture either side on shitty arguments.


~Fing Feng III

Tell you what--you go spend some time with those self-same people those soldiers are out killing, k?  *married to an Aghan*

Everytime they hear a car backfiring, they hit the floor.  My mother in law cries out in her sleep NIGHTLY because of nightmares, sleeps with her back to the motherfucking wall.  Don't go there, don't play that, "I'm the only one who knows what PTSD is like"...

ASSumations are nice, ain't they?

I live in motherfucking San Diego, my kids have to console their mates on 1) the fact their dad or mom is gone 8 to 10 months out of 12 and 2) didn't come home period and 3) came home headless and heartless.

Thing is, you start holding those guys to a different standard, and that won't bring their humanity BACK.  It's on society to hold them to that line and get them back into the fold, with therapy and apologies, sure.

But you don't cure the sickness by introducing more disease--by telling the soldiers "it's ok you kill puppies, no biggie, you've seen combat!" you've essentially reaffirmed to him that it's ok to stray over that line, time and again, because he's got pain in his head where his conscience and dignity should be.

You are excusing a bunch of people from ever returning to their families and friends and colleagues.  You are in effect separating them out from the fold rather then expecting them to rejoin--that seems like part of the problem to me, not part of the solution.

If these people are ever to get over what they've seen and done, they will need re-entry, they will need to feel a part of who they were supposedly fighting for and waiting to come back home to.

It's on the military fucks and society to help fix the disconnect they feel when they return.  That won't fucking happen by saying to them it's ok if they implode in the meantime.

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 12:05:49 PM
I didn't say all, but war does tend to harden people and violence towards children, pets and loved ones is a sign of a growing inability to relate.  Military cousellors have to deal with this quite a lot as do civilian therapists at a time of conflict.

I was taking particular exception to the notion of troops being "desensitized" and "brainwashed".  It would me more accurate to say that they are conditioned to engage targets with their weapons.  They are left entirely on their own to deal with the emotional backlash.  Combat effectiveness is way up (from 5% effective in WWII, 50% in Korea, 80% in Vietnam to the present levels around 95%).  Most people do not want to shoot other people but to stay alive in combat you have to at some point.

I wouldn't say that combat troops are "hardened" towards violence aimed at children and other small animals.  There just comes a point where you have to cut off sensations because they hurt too damned much.  Inappropriate humor follows closely on the heels of this.  And here you have a real life example of the "I can't tell if I'm laughing or screaming" meme.

QuoteI still say the puppy isn't the issue.  The US is on a merry rampage and the guys paying for it are the ones on the front lines... when they come home, expect many more puppies thrown.

I had to deal with a lot of people (even after the Falklands for example) a few familes, relatives and the men and women themselves.  A lot of figurative puppies got thrown and a lot of families broke up as a result.

Definitely a point to consider, but a little far afield of where I was headed originally.   Just the same, I'm glad you brought it up.

QuoteWhilst I may not have your view, the view I have is certainly a considered one.

That said, I may not have aired it in the best way and for that I apologise.

~Fing Feng III

Ditto.

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 12, 2008, 04:14:20 AM
the US is at war with stray dogs?

I was really hoping they would invade Iran first
they've been dangling that possibility in front of me for some time now

I know you only said it for the lulz, but rabies is rampant over there.  So, yeah, we are at war with mongrel dogs.

damn straight
that damn puppy was RABID
didn't you all see that rabid expression on its face?
he had to throw it off a cliff
there was no glee in his act... at all

@Random_Probability - I get you 100% on the black humour thing, sometimes you really have to laugh or you'd break down.  Thats one of the coping mechanisms we use when everything goes to shit.  Ditto 'hurting too damned much' ... I think we pretty much see eye to eye on most of this... I just tend to wave the 'anti-US foreign Policy' flag a little too much at times and it sometimes gets in the way of the issue at hand.

*takes a deep breath*

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 04:14:43 PM

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 03:50:49 PM

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMSo vets are absolved from civilian misbehaviors and crimes because they've been on a battlefield?

You may have missed the part where I said that I neither Absolve nor Condemn.  I just understand that this is a far bigger issue than some asshole thowing a puppy of a cliff cus he's obviously a cunt.  A lot of kids go out fresh-faced and full of optimism... and come back withdrawn angry and even suicidal.

War is a cunt.  kay?

My observation was more along the lines 'Well, we knew something like this would happen'

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMSounds like they shouldn't be returning to the homeland then.

They don't.  See the falklands comment... a pretty minor skirmish, 250 dead in active duty... from those returning over 300 commited suicide, and many hundreds of families broke up because the survivors could no longer relate.

They DIDN'T come home.  They came back.  Big difference.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 03:25:08 PMIf we hold them to a different standard of behaviors, then they really shouldn't be melding with the rest of society, eh?  When your protector turns on you, who's going to protect you from him/her?

Exactly.

Shitty argument, sorry.

ETA:  you can understand and still condemn and disapprove.

I tell you what, you go spend some time counselling these people and then come back.  You go talk to a family where the father returned from active duty a different person and then six months down the line puts a gun in his mouth and blows the back of his skull all over the walls.

Try telling them its his own damned fault for signing up.

Trust me, the world isn't black and white.  Get some time down the sharp end... either on the front line or dealing with the human aftermath... then you can come back and lecture either side on shitty arguments.


~Fing Feng III

Tell you what--you go spend some time with those self-same people those soldiers are out killing, k?  *married to an Aghan*

Everytime they hear a car backfiring, they hit the floor.  My mother in law cries out in her sleep NIGHTLY because of nightmares, sleeps with her back to the motherfucking wall.  Don't go there, don't play that, "I'm the only one who knows what PTSD is like"...

I didn't... I said that unless you've dealt with it in one form or another you can't say shit.

You (unlike most) have, so I expect we can recognise where each other is coming from.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 04:14:43 PM
ASSumations are nice, ain't they?

So, you'd rather I just jumped on the 'OMG THEY KILLED THE PUPPY - BASTARDS' bandwagon ?  You really think that would help anything ?

My point was that theres a bigger issue here than an isolated act of violence against a puppy.  Since you've made clear where you're comming from I'd expect at least a LITTLE nod of recognition before you lay into the subject.

Yet you just jump in with the 'you're talking shit' vibe and then imply I'm being an ass about this even tough you appear to agree with 90% of my argument.  Ummm... yeah... cool.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 04:14:43 PMI live in motherfucking San Diego, my kids have to console their mates on 1) the fact their dad or mom is gone 8 to 10 months out of 12 and 2) didn't come home period and 3) came home headless and heartless.

The exact point I'm making... this marine may come home and blow his brains all over a wall... yet people who DONT know WTF we're talking about here see only the puppy and want to immediately assume the guy did so cus he thought it was fun... not perhaps because he may be pretty damned fucked up by it all.

Again, I'm not telling HIM he's right... I'm telling OTHERS it may be more complicated than they suspect.  So chill.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 04:14:43 PMThing is, you start holding those guys to a different standard, and that won't bring their humanity BACK.  It's on society to hold them to that line and get them back into the fold, with therapy and apologies, sure.

But you don't cure the sickness by introducing more disease--by telling the soldiers "it's ok you kill puppies, no biggie, you've seen combat!" you've essentially reaffirmed to him that it's ok to stray over that line, time and again, because he's got pain in his head where his conscience and dignity should be.

Ummm... I didn't.  I was making the point that it isn't quite so simple to see into this guys head or to expect that his value system is perfectly fine.  I'm not telling soldiers anything... I'm telling civilian kneejerkers that theres a whole deal more to this than some cunt throwing puppies for fun.  This rings heavily of early PTS.

Do you disagree, because you seem to.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 04:14:43 PM
You are excusing a bunch of people from ever returning to their families and friends and colleagues.  You are in effect separating them out from the fold rather then expecting them to rejoin--that seems like part of the problem to me, not part of the solution.

Now, that is bullshit.  How is seeking to understand rather than either condone or condemn going to be of any practical value to a therapist.  And I did say that I was speaking as a professional therapist.

You're telling me I should judge these people ?  Fuck off,  Most of them that come in for therapy are already judging themselves and are way full of self hate.  Yeah, I should judge them... Get real, the only way they get through is by realising that what they did is not who they are... they have to let go and they cannot, because everytime they look at their children they see burnt corpses and feel fucking responsible.

Telling them to accept responsibility is precisely what makes them want put a gun to their mouths.  I LISTEN to them, I TALK to them, I do HYPNOTHERAPY, I teach COPING techniques...

But I DO NOT ABSOLVE... if they want absolution they can go to a priest

And I DO NOT BLAME... they can find that inside of themselves, or they can go face their neatly moral compartmentalised judgemental members of the general public.

So, if that's your beef I suggest you sit down, take a deep breath, and then STFU telling me I'm enabling such attrocities because you really don't have a clue about the work I do.  And it isn't just me, my wife is a clinical psychologist with a specialisation in stress related disorders.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 04:14:43 PMIf these people are ever to get over what they've seen and done, they will need re-entry, they will need to feel a part of who they were supposedly fighting for and waiting to come back home to.

Well thanks for that enlightening view.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 04:14:43 PMIt's on the military fucks and society to help fix the disconnect they feel when they return.  That won't fucking happen by saying to them it's ok if they implode in the meantime.

See, now I started out by criticising the 'military fucks' as you put it.  I just can't help feeling that we share so much common ground here yet you just want to fight me out of anger.  You appear to know first hand the problems yet you seem to be completely polarised against me.

Where did I say it was 'okay' if some guy 'implodes' ... I didn't.  I said it is understandable that this shit happens and that he needs help and not some kneejerk reaction from the puppylover brigade (of which I am one BTW).  I really don't see how I'm advocating marines going jerko.

I really don't see where you get off...

... but I get off here.

Please feel free to continue this attack in my absence.


~Fing Feng III

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 03:50:49 PM
@ratatosk:

I see exactly where you're coming from, but I don't think things are so simple.  People don't CHOOSE to lose it, people don't CHOOSE to come home and kill themselves ... people just cope the best way they can and sometimes they go over the edge.

All warefare is peppered with incidents where people have gone 'over the edge' in the moment.  And returning home many carry all the crap with them.  Like I said, it is a tough job... but not many can achieve a balance between the brutal nature of the job and staying in touch with their humane side.  Way too many need long term counselling and even psychiatric treatment.

Look at tours in Vietnam and Northern Ireland where trust was a major issue and the enemy was often invisible.  The psychological effects of those environments in particular sent even the toughest of men right over the edge... no man has an iron will.

It is therefore perhaps a little too simple to say that they should all remain mentally strong enough to excercise moral judgement...   But I agree with you that in other circumstances it is what we expect generally of people.  The problem is when they come back many have stopped seeing themselves AS people and thats where problems start.


~Fing Feng III

I'm not saying that they choose to off themselves, or that they need to be mentally strong enough to exercise moral judgement.... I'm saying that this jerk volunteered take employment with a group that is in the business of mass murder. Everything that happens afterward is directly related to that decision. His PTSD, his puppy throwing, any bloodguilt from dead arabs... all of it is HIS FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY.

Sure there are problems with the military, we've known that for 4000+ years, at least. Ancient civilizations knew that their trained killers weren't sane enough to just let back into civilian life. During the Middle Ages, the whole concept of jousting and tournaments, were specifically to keep the trained killers busy during peacetime. So yeah, training people to kill fucks up their brain and decision making skills. However, this man KNEW (or at least had access to data showing) that he might end up as some sort of inhuman monster... and he still joined. Thus his inhumae acts... are HIS RESPONSIBILITY.

We can debate the necessity of war, or the training methods or any of a thousand bits of minutia, but in the end... that puppy flying through the air is HIS RESPONSIBILITY.

Quote from: triple zero on March 12, 2008, 01:47:10 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 11, 2008, 11:45:53 PMYou're right, I'm not making a point, and I should be.  We have a saying "What happens in the field, stays in the field".

why?

Several reasons.  First and foremost out in the field the only reason you are fighting is because of the men on either side of you.  If you can't trust those men completely then you're probably going to die.  Then there is the issue of field vs. garrison.  Essentially this means that you don't take the war home with you.  Added in to that is the practical reality that a lot of rules and regulations are put on the back burner.  Certain lapses in adherence to the UCMJ are overlooked provided that they are not repeated in garrison.

That's a brief overview, but it doesn't really even scratch the surface.  There is a lot more to it than that.  But it is also important to keep in mind that it is just a stupid phrase used to collectively deal with a host of issues.  In some ways it's like one of those shitty little bible phrases that get a lot of additional meaning heaped onto it over the ages.

Quote

QuoteWas the guy out of line?  Yeah, a little bit.

just a tiiiiiiny littlebit

WTF MAN, HE THREW A PUPPY OFF A CLIFF

and he's not even sorry for it. no he's sorry that it was shown.

also that puppy in the video sure looks sick.

Yes, he threw a puppy off a cliff as opposed to shooting it.  Wow... that's cruel alrighty...

Have you ever considered a career in veterinary medicine?  'Cause you're 3 second diagnosis from a grainy video is fawkin' awesome! [/sarcasm]

Quote

QuoteDoes it make him a shithead?  Meh.  I don't know him, so I can't say for sure.  Then again, none of you can either.

of course it makes him a shithead.

how can you doubt this? even if the guy was doing the puppy a favour by killing it, any mercy-kill is supposed to show some fucking respect. it doesn't seem like he was in a particular hurry like "oshit i gotta kill this puppy right now, there's no time to do it properly, let's throw it off the cliff then", so, yes, overlooking that sort of thing is pretty much what makes people a shithead.

Right.  Mercy killings are always somber affairs followed by candle light vigils where everyone cries over what a tragedy it was.

So you think he's a shithead because he doesn't show the appropriate emotions you think he should?  Excuse me?  Just who the fuck do you think you are?  You remind me of this judge who tossed out a rape indictment because the victim didn't seem to act appropriately teary and traumatized in his courtroom.

Dude, seriously... get some perspective.

Quote

QuoteIf LCpl. Motari has already faced Office Hours for the incident, prosecuting him just to satisfy the bloodlust of the folks back home is both illegal and immoral.  But this is an emotional issue, isn't it....  Or is it?

no this is about retarded persons like you that keep digging for excuses for some shithead that threw a puppy of a cliff.

No, my point is that, regardless of the facts, you and people like you will continue to believe what you want to believe just because it makes you feel morally superior to others.  It doesn't make you right.  It just makes you feel good.

has this guy been to iraq or afghanastan yet?
(by the way i have a girl friend whos been on duty there twice now and is fine... you know, doesnt throw puppies)
has he actually been in battle yet or just been stationed in different places?
you know... hell holes like.... Hawaii???

these are the questions i'd like to know before making the whole "war is hell" statement cause who knows if he's actually seen it yet?

He served in Iraq, AFAIK.  I havent checked the sources of that information, but it is widely cited and seems fairly solid.

Quote from: Cthulhu's Squidling on March 12, 2008, 05:26:41 PM
(by the way i have a girl friend whos been on duty there twice now and is fine... you know, doesnt throw puppies)

why does your girlfriend support rabies?

Quote from: Cthulhu's Squidling on March 12, 2008, 05:26:41 PM
has this guy been to iraq or afghanastan yet?
(by the way i have a girl friend whos been on duty there twice now and is fine... you know, doesnt throw puppies)
has he actually been in battle yet or just been stationed in different places?
you know... hell holes like.... Hawaii???

these are the questions i'd like to know before making the whole "war is hell" statement cause who knows if he's actually seen it yet?

He's with 1/3  the "Lava Dogs".  They just accomplished the impossible by brining everybody home they deployed with.  They are also famous for taking the most casualties during the Battle of Falujah early in the war.  They didn't manage this latest feat by hiding behind the wire, either.  In my book that makes them pretty fucking 1337.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 05:26:24 PM

Yes, he threw a puppy off a cliff as opposed to shooting it.  Wow... that's cruel alrighty...

Shooting puppy = dead puppy
Throwing Puppy = Maybe Dead Puppy, Maybe broken and alive and hurting puppy

I grew up in the country. I know all about putting animals out of their misery. Throwing puppies is not a useful way of putting them out of their misery. You FAIL for even trying to make that argument.

personally Im willing to hold my judgement till all the facts are out
but my first impressions are a couple of assholes doing the equivalent of a fratboy stunt
unfortunate as things stand
but according to cnn and the military's reaction they are probably going to lose their jobs cause of it
time will tell if they deserved it
probably did

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 12, 2008, 05:35:46 PM
personally Im willing to hold my judgement till all the facts are out
but my first impressions are a couple of assholes doing the equivalent of a fratboy stunt
unfortunate as things stand
but according to cnn and the military's reaction they are probably going to lose their jobs cause of it
time will tell if they deserved it
probably did

Well, at least you're thinking.

Here is something else to consider.  At the time it happened everyone in his squad knew and his platoon leader (an officer, in case you didn't know that) would also have known.  If anything was going to happen to him over this issue, it would have already happened.  If at this late date he does burn for it then his superiors ought to burn as well, but we all know that isn't going to happen.

Also consider the fact that his unit is currently in the "walks on water" category of elite considering their combat record, so that will automatically shield the officers from the current shitstorm.

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 12, 2008, 05:11:21 PMI'm not saying that they choose to off themselves, or that they need to be mentally strong enough to exercise moral judgement.... I'm saying that this jerk volunteered take employment with a group that is in the business of mass murder. Everything that happens afterward is directly related to that decision. His PTSD, his puppy throwing, any bloodguilt from dead arabs... all of it is HIS FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY.

Then, what you're saying is that anyone that signs up is guilty of putting themselves in danger of commiting an attrocity regardless of whether, in fact, they do.  Since you admit that it is highly unlikely a squadie signs up 'wanting' to lose it... but in the act of signing up accepts responsibility if they do.

This one might lose it.  That one might lose it... we know for a fact that a large percentage of them WILL lose it so statistically the individual cases are not really relevant.  We already expect it.

I agree with you to an extent, but I still stand by my statements

If we pack them off expecting this then we should also be prepared to accept it when it happens and not just indulge moral kneejerks against particular individuals without the benefit of a Psych-Eval.  We knew this type of thing would happen.  War ain't clean or pretty and it certainly isn't noble and honourable...

Shit happens and all the anger in the world won't change a damned thing.


I just don't see, after admitting recognition of the psychiatric danges of war on the individual, that it makes sense to just come out and say 'This man is obviously wrong and deserves punishment'.  You really need to know his state of mind before you can start making moral judgements.

And on this score I just get the feeling that many people can't see past the 'OMG - A PUPPY' thing.

If you know a certain act will send 20% of the people involved OTT then either :

a) Accept that by comissioning you're responsible for both act and any associated cleanup
-or-
b) You don't commission the act

If you go into war (or stand by whilst your government goes to war) with the knowledge that many of those involved are going to come back dangerously unhinged or suicidal... then you cannot blame each individual unless you can demonstrate that they commissioned an imoral act with full mental faculty.


Like RP pointed towards, this stuff is pretty much expected by the Army who really do understand the psychology of war and those individuals involved in it.  It is a sad reality of war that things get a little sick at times... black humour abounds because it MUST.  If it didn't they'd be out their topping themselves... many will still top themselves when they get back.  Seriously, the black humour is part and parcel of staying alive... it just happens to cause a lot of outrage from those at home who can afford such a nice neat moral view.

It makes sense to me,

But anyway, I said I'd vacate this thread so thats what I'll do ; )  I just kinda caught your post on the way out.


~Fing Feng III

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 12, 2008, 05:32:37 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 05:26:24 PM

Yes, he threw a puppy off a cliff as opposed to shooting it.  Wow... that's cruel alrighty...

Shooting puppy = dead puppy
Throwing Puppy = Maybe Dead Puppy, Maybe broken and alive and hurting puppy

I grew up in the country. I know all about putting animals out of their misery. Throwing puppies is not a useful way of putting them out of their misery. You FAIL for even trying to make that argument.

Well, it certainly is refreshing to hear from an authority on killing animals.  I know nobody else knows about that sort of thing at all.  Wow.  You know, gunshots aren't always 100% effective at killing animals.  Even small ones.

As for the cliff, it depends on how high that cliff is, among other things.  I couldn't tell from the video.  Could you?

At this point I'll direct your attention to an earlier post I made where I asserted said named Marine wasn't particularly bright, but home movie stars rarely are....

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 05:52:56 PM
it just happens to cause a lot of outrage from those at home who can afford such a nice neat moral view.

This is what I've been on about.  Not to sound too ZOMG23PINEALLOL or anything, but all of the outrage over puppy werfing is entirely a case of someone looking through their little window and lining up what they see on an imaginary grid.  The man on the scene sees an animal that ought to be destroyed.  Everyone else sitting in the safety of their comfy chair in front of their personal computer sees a cute little puppy being killed by some retarded shithead.

I also find it comical that the same people who express so much dewy-eyed sympathy for the puppy expose their deeply ingrained sadistic streak in calling for the torture, mutilation, and death of that Marine.

Well that's the Daily Mail-esque masses for you.  Logical coherency in worldview goes where?

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 05:53:58 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on March 12, 2008, 05:32:37 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 05:26:24 PM

Yes, he threw a puppy off a cliff as opposed to shooting it.  Wow... that's cruel alrighty...

Shooting puppy = dead puppy
Throwing Puppy = Maybe Dead Puppy, Maybe broken and alive and hurting puppy

I grew up in the country. I know all about putting animals out of their misery. Throwing puppies is not a useful way of putting them out of their misery. You FAIL for even trying to make that argument.

Well, it certainly is refreshing to hear from an authority on killing animals.  I know nobody else knows about that sort of thing at all.  Wow.  You know, gunshots aren't always 100% effective at killing animals.  Even small ones.

Yes, having had that experience myself, I know that its certainly possible. The first bullet may not kill a small animal at point blank range. If the operator of the gun knows what they are doing, this is highly unlikely, but still possible. Throwing a dog to kill it, however, has a much higher likelihood of failing to kill the animal. Gunshots tend to be 90% effective or so... and even then if the first bullet doesn't do the job, you can quickly unload a second which should finish things off. On the other hand, throwing a puppy over a cliff means that if the puppy were still alive, it would be broken and suffering at the bottom of a cliff (and I'm betting they didn't run down to make sure it was dead).

So no, that line of argument also fails any test of logic.

There is no good reason for throwing a puppy over a cliff. This marine threw a puppy over the cliff, his act, his responsibility...

I have no opinion on his continued service in the military, they kill people for a living... I don't think killing a dog should count for too much. However, it isn't OK, it isn't normal, it isn't excusable. I have yet to see any argument that supports, what appears to me as an insane view, that this is somehow OK.

Quote
As for the cliff, it depends on how high that cliff is, among other things.  I couldn't tell from the video.  Could you?

WTF? Height doesn't guarantee immediate death. It mostly just indicates that when it landed, it probably broke several bones.

Quote from: FingFeng on March 12, 2008, 05:02:20 PM



I didn't... I said that unless you've dealt with it in one form or another you can't say shit.

You (unlike most) have, so I expect we can recognise where each other is coming from.



So, you'd rather I just jumped on the 'OMG THEY KILLED THE PUPPY - BASTARDS' bandwagon ?  You really think that would help anything ?

My point was that theres a bigger issue here than an isolated act of violence against a puppy.  Since you've made clear where you're comming from I'd expect at least a LITTLE nod of recognition before you lay into the subject.

Yet you just jump in with the 'you're talking shit' vibe and then imply I'm being an ass about this even tough you appear to agree with 90% of my argument.  Ummm... yeah... cool.


The exact point I'm making... this marine may come home and blow his brains all over a wall... yet people who DONT know WTF we're talking about here see only the puppy and want to immediately assume the guy did so cus he thought it was fun... not perhaps because he may be pretty damned fucked up by it all.

Again, I'm not telling HIM he's right... I'm telling OTHERS it may be more complicated than they suspect.  So chill.

You seem to be engaged in apologetics, actually.  Which, given your occupation and your impressions of those vets you know, that's fine.  But you have to separate out the therapist mindset from the "citizen Fing Feng" who is engaged in a discussion on these topics with other "citizens at large".  YOU took the stance towards ME first on the "you can't say this is bullshit til you've dealt with it firsthand"--all I was doing is showing you the hand and saying, "Please, you are assuming too much about everyone, first of all me" and showing you my "cred."

I also disagree that unless you know these people firsthand you have no right to judge.  Why?  Because these people live amongst those who don't have their experiences, and they can be harmed, apparently, by them.  How can they NOT judge this man by the glee in his voice and face as he tosses and innocent life into oblivion?  They will give him the respect due him til they see a blatant evil (yes, I reserve the word "evil" for shit like this)act for no apparent reason other than "he's fucked up."

Plenty of people are fucked up for various reasons--and they don't kill harmless, innocent beings.

Quote from: Fing Feng

Ummm... I didn't.  I was making the point that it isn't quite so simple to see into this guys head or to expect that his value system is perfectly fine.  I'm not telling soldiers anything... I'm telling civilian kneejerkers that theres a whole deal more to this than some cunt throwing puppies for fun.  This rings heavily of early PTS.

Do you disagree, because you seem to.

No, see, there's a deeper level to my meaning:  I don't care.  I don't care what his problem is, exactly, I judge his deed purely as what he did:  wrong.

I admit there's a problem with the moral compass of some of the guys coming back form the war--that's expected to a large fucking degree.  But the military is obviously slipping when it's not catching this shit and dealing with it head-on.  There've been MULTIPLE stories on this in the media.  The military is in patent denial about the scope here.  It's wide, broad and immediate.  I also think these young guys should catch a clue sometimes and realize that joining up in wartime means YOU WILL KILL PEOPLE or BE KILLED.  But perhaps we give them a pass on that too since they are poor, innocent souls until thrown into the pit of despair?

Being in the military during wartime doesn't mean this guy is any less of a monster than he's demonstrated he can be.  That doesn't make this dude any less harmless, or comprehensible.  Just puts a label on him as "fucked up vet who needs attention pronto before he kills someONE instead of someTHING."

Quote from: Fing Feng

Now, that is bullshit.  How is seeking to understand rather than either condone or condemn going to be of any practical value to a therapist.  And I did say that I was speaking as a professional therapist.

You're telling me I should judge these people ?  Fuck off,  Most of them that come in for therapy are already judging themselves and are way full of self hate.  Yeah, I should judge them... Get real, the only way they get through is by realising that what they did is not who they are... they have to let go and they cannot, because everytime they look at their children they see burnt corpses and feel fucking responsible.

Telling them to accept responsibility is precisely what makes them want put a gun to their mouths.  I LISTEN to them, I TALK to them, I do HYPNOTHERAPY, I teach COPING techniques...

But I DO NOT ABSOLVE... if they want absolution they can go to a priest

And I DO NOT BLAME... they can find that inside of themselves, or they can go face their neatly moral compartmentalised judgemental members of the general public.

So, if that's your beef I suggest you sit down, take a deep breath, and then STFU telling me I'm enabling such attrocities because you really don't have a clue about the work I do.  And it isn't just me, my wife is a clinical psychologist with a specialisation in stress related disorders.

Yeah, I hold a lot of therapists in various stances and pov's to blame too.  As long as you hold that line of "oh I don't tell you what to do, I just try to understand why you do it" you don't change much, do ya?

But that's a whole other bullshit thread.

My main point atm is that if you are going to argue the morality of this thing, you probably shouldn't do it from the standpoint of their therapist, because you've already stated you can't judge.  And you are talking to people without the so-called kneejerk reactions you are placing on us here.  I'd say the majority of people responding itt have some sort of education, experience and back up.

No, instead you are blaming those who judge him ill, as they should.  So fuck off right back.  You are taking the non-blame stance and telling others they can't do so either.  That's fucked up.  Everyone has "deep, complicated" experiences.  This is one further category of them.  And one that needs addressing, by the public, in just this manner, or guess what?  It'll never get resolved and go away. 

Quote from: Fing FengWell thanks for that enlightening view.

Didn't say it was enlightening, it's just mine.

Quote from: Fing Feng

See, now I started out by criticising the 'military fucks' as you put it.  I just can't help feeling that we share so much common ground here yet you just want to fight me out of anger.  You appear to know first hand the problems yet you seem to be completely polarised against me.

Where did I say it was 'okay' if some guy 'implodes' ... I didn't.  I said it is understandable that this shit happens and that he needs help and not some kneejerk reaction from the puppylover brigade (of which I am one BTW).  I really don't see how I'm advocating marines going jerko.

I really don't see where you get off...

... but I get off here.

Please feel free to continue this attack in my absence.


~Fing Feng III

I get off where you get on in apologetics.  They're bullshit.  This isn't a "black and white" or even "right or wrong" issue--it's a fucked up problem society needs to pay attention to and do something about, really.  To me, this incident is a no-brainer.  The dude did a bad thing and should be punished and then seek mental help asap.

So, really, what it comes down to is this:  as a therapist, fine, don't judge, blame, condone or do anything but UNDERSTAND.

But I wouldn't also "kneejerk" your own reaction against those who DO judge, blame and condemn.  It's a bullshit argument to say it's complicated and a mental problem.  Yeah, well, DUH is my genuine response to that.

And I daresay few aren't AWARE of what goes on in war--they just don't think that it excuses people from criminal acts against others.

Undiscussed possibility:


That the individual concerned was a shithead before he joined the military.

Just because we see him commit the act whilst wearing a military uniform does not necessarily mean that his puppy throwing was a result of his military experience.

The clip itself is very short and beyond informing us of what he did (ie: towser tossing), it doesn't tell us much about his entire life leading up to that point.

If the clip showed the man in jeans & t-shirt and we didn't know he had been in the marines etc, then there's a good chance (IMHO) that the interpretation of the event would've been different.

I don't think that anyone here thinks playing cannus cannonball is a good idea. I don't think anyone here disagrees on the point that war is pretty much the worst thing humanity has ever devised and that it's effects are spread far & wide beyond the initial combat itself.

Truth of the matter is that we know little/nothing beyond the event itself as captured on film and even that tiny reality-lite snippet is open to debate (real film? doctored film? sound contemporaneous? sound added?).

I'm not suggesting that this is TEH ANSWER!11!, but we cannot rule out the possibility that the whippet winger, may have simply been a jackass who may have done this sort of thing anyway.

Just a thought.

Quote from: Mangrove on March 12, 2008, 06:47:12 PM
Undiscussed possibility:


That the individual concerned was a shithead before he joined the military.

Truth of the matter is that we know little/nothing beyond the event itself as captured on film and even that tiny reality-lite snippet is open to debate (real film? doctored film? sound contemporaneous? sound added?).

I'm not suggesting that this is TEH ANSWER!11!, but we cannot rule out the possibility that the whippet winger, may have simply been a jackass who may have done this sort of thing anyway.

Just a thought.

:mittens:

Admittedly, this is the first thought that crossed my mind (with the caveat that I am all too aware of the operational realities relevant to official oversight of SNMs actions).  I seem to have gotten wrapped around the axle somewhere along the line.

I got to stop watching threads or I'll keep getting pulled back in, like now...

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMYOU took the stance towards ME first on the "you can't say this is bullshit til you've dealt with it firsthand"

Actually, you basically jumped in and said I was talking complete bullshit... I then note that you then went on to agree with most of it accept the fact that I thought it wasn't necessarily a black and white issue... which again, you then appear to sort of agree on.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMNo, see, there's a deeper level to my meaning:  I don't care.  I don't care what his problem is, exactly, I judge his deed purely as what he did:  wrong.

Again, I never said the act wasn't 'wrong'... I just said that it is indicative of a recognised phenomenon which I'd expect at least a passing nod to.

Later in this very post you contradict this and go on to state that this is NOT a 'right/wrong' issue.  Do you see how confusing you're being ?

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMI admit there's a problem with the moral compass of some of the guys coming back form the war--that's expected to a large fucking degree.

And if it is expected, then we should at least attempt to account for it.  And, no, that doesn't mean condone, it means understand the issues before we wade in and guage everything with our own civilian moral compass.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMBeing in the military during wartime doesn't mean this guy is any less of a monster than he's demonstrated he can be.  That doesn't make this dude any less harmless, or comprehensible.  Just puts a label on him as "fucked up vet who needs attention pronto before he kills someONE instead of someTHING."

And attention, in this case, is pointing the finger from the comfortable moral highground ?

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMYeah, I hold a lot of therapists in various stances and pov's to blame too.  As long as you hold that line of "oh I don't tell you what to do, I just try to understand why you do it" you don't change much, do ya?

But that's a whole other bullshit thread.

Again, you insist on twisting this around to suit yourself.  I'm actually a hynotherapist, I deal with the thoughts and feelings and I help get peoples feet back on the ground on this stuff.  I also deal with families of those with problems too... although not as much as my wife.

You may think I'm contributing to this whole mess but I really (and I mean REALLY) don't see how.  And if you think, as a hypnotherapist, I should be pointing out how evil he obviously is then obviously you don't know the first thing about my line of work.  You should perhaps talk to my wife whos a clinical psychologist going for her psychiatric training.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMMy main point atm is that if you are going to argue the morality of this thing, you probably shouldn't do it from the standpoint of their therapist, because you've already stated you can't judge.  And you are talking to people without the so-called kneejerk reactions you are placing on us here.  I'd say the majority of people responding itt have some sort of education, experience and back up.

What I said was, this was wrong... but you need to understand the nature of it before you can slap the 'evil' badge on this guy.  You really SHOULD understand this...

... because the reason your soldier comes back so screwed up may well be because of very similar feelings.  Indeed, he may well have pinned the 'evil' badge on himself.  And if it all starts to go wrong (And I hope to god it doesn't) you're going to be relying on EXACTLY the kind of non-judgemental professionals who will be helping him drop the guilt and get a handle on it all.

Not to absolve him of any moral crime, but just to bring him BACK HOME

Your attack is unwarranted.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMYou are taking the non-blame stance and telling others they can't do so either.  That's fucked up.

No, I understand why people blame this man.  I'm not saying they can't... I'm just saying that there may be a lot more going on.  So kill me.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMEveryone has "deep, complicated" experiences.  This is one further category of them.  And one that needs addressing, by the public, in just this manner, or guess what?  It'll never get resolved and go away.

Okay, and when the public gets mad at the guilt-ridden vets it goes away ?  Oh, yeah, just like it did for the returning vietnam vets.  All they need is some good ol' fashioned blamefest to bring them round.  Yep?  Well... I'm sorry but the public treatment of those vets made NOTHING better and made NOTHING 'go away'

It just made things far worse.  They came back to a whole shitload of blame... The ones that didn't kill themselves STILL havent integrated.  Success for the straight social finger of morality ?  I guess not.

There is NOTHING to support your contention that what returning vets need is fingerpointing and blame.  What they need is for someone to take their damned psychological webbing off.


Now, remember earlier you said "I don't care.  I don't care what his problem is, exactly, I judge his deed purely as what he did:  wrong" ...

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMI get off where you get on in apologetics.  They're bullshit.  This isn't a "black and white" or even "right or wrong" issue--it's a fucked up problem society needs to pay attention to and do something about, really.  To me, this incident is a no-brainer.  The dude did a bad thing and should be punished and then seek mental help asap.

If it isn't 'black and white'... and it isn't 'right or wrong'... and it is 'just a fucked up mess that society needs to pay attention to'... then isn't that EXACTLY what I've been saying (and you've been denying) ?

Your problem is that you DO seem to think it is 'black and white'... you DO seem to think it is a matter of 'right and wrong'... and as a result you are rushing to condemn.  Paradox ?

You're confusing the crap out of me.  Are you high right now ?

As you go on to say...

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMBut I wouldn't also "kneejerk" your own reaction against those who DO judge, blame and condemn.

Did you just say it wasn't a B&W / R&W issue ?  I never said that you couldn't call it evil... just urged against simple 'OMG - A PUPPY' responses without at least considering that the issue may have more depth.

You are such an argumentative lil' bunny ain't you

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 06:27:37 PMAnd I daresay few aren't AWARE of what goes on in war--they just don't think that it excuses people from criminal acts against others.

And again with your straw man arguments... I never excused anyone.


This is getting tiring.  Yet I really am inexorably attracted to your line of reasoning... I'm actually becoming genuinely interested what you're going to attack me with next.


~Fing Feng III

:lol:  Naw, I'm just laughing at the kneejerk reactionary calling me out on my own kneejerkiness.  :lol:

I can't be high while I work...won't function half as well or get paid half as much.

I quoted what you said--it's there in blue and white and black...*shrug*  You called everyone ITT that said the puppy thrower = big, fat jerk (I'm PARAPHRASING) a kneejerk reactionary. 

You can call an action wrong without turning the main issue (which seems less and less to be about abuse of animals and more and more to be about abusive soldiers) into a black and white, do or die mechanism (had to add that last, that's what I get for multi-tasking).

For someone who walks away from an argument, you shore do stick around and talk alot, thar, Fing Feng...

FOOOM

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 07:56:58 PM:lol:  Naw, I'm just laughing at the kneejerk reactionary calling me out on my own kneejerkiness.  :lol:

LOL

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 07:56:58 PMI can't be high while I work...won't function half as well or get paid half as much.

I quoted what you said--it's there in blue and white and black...*shrug*  You called everyone ITT that said the puppy thrower = big, fat jerk (I'm PARAPHRASING) a kneejerk reactionary. 

I said it was very easy to kneejerk... I was pointing out that there may be a lot more going on.  If that wasn't so hard for people to swallow then this thread wouldn't have gotten so long.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 07:56:58 PMYou can call an action wrong without turning the main issue (which seems less and less to be about abuse of animals and more and more to be about abusive soldiers) into a black and white, do or die mechanism (had to add that last, that's what I get for multi-tasking).

Hmmm, not the way it seemed to read... but I'll let it go.

Quote from: Jenne on March 12, 2008, 07:56:58 PMFor someone who walks away from an argument, you shore do stick around and talk alot, thar, Fing Feng...

I just couldn't resist your charms, what can I say...

k, Beer ?  :cheers:


~Fing Feng III

:amurrica: "... forget the puppyhunt, just get the damn flag up"

Against my better judgement I just watched the video, and both soldiers DEFINITELY laugh about it, before throwing the puppy, in fact one actually says "Aw, cute little puppy", and after the puppy is thrown the camera man says "That's mean" and the tosser shrugs with a half smile at the camera.

It's absolutely nauseating.

I'll take that beer, Fing Feng and raise you a boilermaker!  :D

Hoops, you are a stronger man than I.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 05:48:54 PM

Here is something else to consider.  At the time it happened everyone in his squad knew and his platoon leader (an officer, in case you didn't know that) would also have known.  If anything was going to happen to him over this issue, it would have already happened.  If at this late date he does burn for it then his superiors ought to burn as well, but we all know that isn't going to happen.

the military went on CNN yesterday saying they are looking in the matter
they also stated most military men adopt dogs from iraq as well as coming on today saying there will probably be discharges in this matter
public outcry is pretty great in this matter and probably force him to lose his job wether he can walk on water or balance a tank on the tip of his nose

Quote from: Mangrove on March 12, 2008, 06:47:12 PM
Undiscussed possibility:


That the individual concerned was a shithead before he joined the military.

Just because we see him commit the act whilst wearing a military uniform does not necessarily mean that his puppy throwing was a result of his military experience.

The clip itself is very short and beyond informing us of what he did (ie: towser tossing), it doesn't tell us much about his entire life leading up to that point.

If the clip showed the man in jeans & t-shirt and we didn't know he had been in the marines etc, then there's a good chance (IMHO) that the interpretation of the event would've been different.

I don't think that anyone here thinks playing cannus cannonball is a good idea. I don't think anyone here disagrees on the point that war is pretty much the worst thing humanity has ever devised and that it's effects are spread far & wide beyond the initial combat itself.

Truth of the matter is that we know little/nothing beyond the event itself as captured on film and even that tiny reality-lite snippet is open to debate (real film? doctored film? sound contemporaneous? sound added?).

I'm not suggesting that this is TEH ANSWER!11!, but we cannot rule out the possibility that the whippet winger, may have simply been a jackass who may have done this sort of thing anyway.

Just a thought.

This sounds like the most plausible of all the arguments I've heard so far.

As for the puppy being sick, I can't help but be skeptical. Sounds like an after-the-fact fact to me.

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 13, 2008, 12:41:28 AM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 05:48:54 PM

Here is something else to consider.  At the time it happened everyone in his squad knew and his platoon leader (an officer, in case you didn't know that) would also have known.  If anything was going to happen to him over this issue, it would have already happened.  If at this late date he does burn for it then his superiors ought to burn as well, but we all know that isn't going to happen.

the military went on CNN yesterday saying they are looking in the matter
they also stated most military men adopt dogs from iraq as well as coming on today saying there will probably be discharges in this matter
public outcry is pretty great in this matter and probably force him to lose his job wether he can walk on water or balance a tank on the tip of his nose

That's true... a lot of soldiers adopt dogs while they're there, and some even bring them home with them. There was a guy who died on Christmas, and the Army shipped his dogs (mom and pups) back to his family.

My dad's opinion as a professional Airborne Special Forces career soldier is "Men like that don't belong on the field; a soldier without empathy is a military liability, and a man who would kill a harmless creature is a coward, you can't trust him to hold his ground." Then he went on to ramble for half an hour about doing diplomatic training for Iraq-bound soldiers last year, how stupid they were, how many elementary mistakes they made in training scenarios, how they were way too trigger-happy, and how that's why things are going so badly over there...

Quote from: Nigel on March 13, 2008, 01:40:57 AM

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 13, 2008, 12:41:28 AM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 05:48:54 PM

Here is something else to consider.  At the time it happened everyone in his squad knew and his platoon leader (an officer, in case you didn't know that) would also have known.  If anything was going to happen to him over this issue, it would have already happened.  If at this late date he does burn for it then his superiors ought to burn as well, but we all know that isn't going to happen.

the military went on CNN yesterday saying they are looking in the matter
they also stated most military men adopt dogs from iraq as well as coming on today saying there will probably be discharges in this matter
public outcry is pretty great in this matter and probably force him to lose his job wether he can walk on water or balance a tank on the tip of his nose

That's true... a lot of soldiers adopt dogs while they're there, and some even bring them home with them. There was a guy who died on Christmas, and the Army shipped his dogs (mom and pups) back to his family.

My dad's opinion as a professional Airborne Special Forces career soldier is "Men like that don't belong on the field; a soldier without empathy is a military liability, and a man who would kill a harmless creature is a coward, you can't trust him to hold his ground." Then he went on to ramble for half an hour about doing diplomatic training for Iraq-bound soldiers last year, how stupid they were, how many elementary mistakes they made in training scenarios, how they were way too trigger-happy, and how that's why things are going so badly over there...

this was pretty much the point i was trying to make only your father said it way better.
Nigel and her dad win this one IMHO

(by the way if the puppy was sick and needed to be put down i can guarantee that a single shot in the face point blank w/ a 9mm semi-auto that most soldiers carry as a sidearm woulda done the trick. if it needed a second shot it woulda been a lot quicker than a cliff toss...just sayin)

Ok, I tl'dred the last couple of pages, but I just want to say, war is stupid and sucks balls, the dude who threw the puppy off the cliff is a tard and should be shot, and I lol'd after watching the clip for the third time and I don't know why.

Quote from: Cthulhu's Squidling on March 13, 2008, 05:22:03 AM

Quote from: Nigel on March 13, 2008, 01:40:57 AM

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 13, 2008, 12:41:28 AM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 12, 2008, 05:48:54 PM

Here is something else to consider.  At the time it happened everyone in his squad knew and his platoon leader (an officer, in case you didn't know that) would also have known.  If anything was going to happen to him over this issue, it would have already happened.  If at this late date he does burn for it then his superiors ought to burn as well, but we all know that isn't going to happen.

the military went on CNN yesterday saying they are looking in the matter
they also stated most military men adopt dogs from iraq as well as coming on today saying there will probably be discharges in this matter
public outcry is pretty great in this matter and probably force him to lose his job wether he can walk on water or balance a tank on the tip of his nose

That's true... a lot of soldiers adopt dogs while they're there, and some even bring them home with them. There was a guy who died on Christmas, and the Army shipped his dogs (mom and pups) back to his family.

My dad's opinion as a professional Airborne Special Forces career soldier is "Men like that don't belong on the field; a soldier without empathy is a military liability, and a man who would kill a harmless creature is a coward, you can't trust him to hold his ground." Then he went on to ramble for half an hour about doing diplomatic training for Iraq-bound soldiers last year, how stupid they were, how many elementary mistakes they made in training scenarios, how they were way too trigger-happy, and how that's why things are going so badly over there...

this was pretty much the point i was trying to make only your father said it way better.
Nigel and her dad win this one IMHO

(by the way if the puppy was sick and needed to be put down i can guarantee that a single shot in the face point blank w/ a 9mm semi-auto that most soldiers carry as a sidearm woulda done the trick. if it needed a second shot it woulda been a lot quicker than a cliff toss...just sayin)

I don't doubt that this guy is going to get a Big Chicken Dinner, but I did wish to illustrate the point that every possible mechanism of official government oversight was in place at the time and they knew damned well what happened.  Funny how they didn't seem to have had much of a problem with it at the time.

Looking at this whole thing honestly, the problem I have with all of it, is that here we have a case where a Marine performed an action that was considered a non-event by the government at the time, but now they are going to ruin the lives of a handful of people over public sentiment rather than their own rule of law which originally found no fault with the incident.  Just the same, I feel confident in saying that the government will invoke plausible deniability with regards to this incident.

I agree that popping one off in the cranium is a sure-fire way of hushing a puppy, but unless the TO&E has changed dramatically, only corpsmen, officers and some staffNCOs carry side arms.  The average grunt only has his M4, bayonet and (maybe) a Ka-BAR.  And grenades...  And and e-tool...  Boot laces...  Possibly some C-4 or a claymore....

Granted, using gravity isn't the most effective method of doing in an animal, but any way you cut it the puppy is still dead.  In some areas rabies is a problem and dogs, especially wild dogs, are vermin and disease vectors.  But their puppies are still adorable.  Contagious, but adorable.

Quote from: Random Probability on March 13, 2008, 04:41:50 PM

Looking at this whole thing honestly, the problem I have with all of it, is that here we have a case where a Marine performed an action that was considered a non-event by the government at the time, but now they are going to ruin the lives of a handful of people over public sentiment rather than their own rule of law which originally found no fault with the incident.  Just the same, I feel confident in saying that the government will invoke plausible deniability with regards to this incident.

I have a problem with this arguement, since it applies that somehow the military and more important the government somehow should not be subjected to public sentiment, instead of the military and government is suppose to serve the public
if this marine did what he did, wether the dog had rabies or was the spawn of satan, in his backyard he probably would have been arrested if found out
we as a society have determened that form of behavior towards dogs and many forms of life are unacceptable, except for maybe for medical advancement or if your life are in imediate danger, or against rats, vermins or insects, ect.

i just love how the military will see a "non event" and sweep it under the rug until the public sees it and becomes outraged.

then all of a sudden it becomes an investigation, and then punishment ensues.

forgive me if i seem all weepy eyed and hormonal like a woman over the thing i just don't like seeing animals mistreated.

(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/9928/puppyissorrytk9.jpg)

BOOM!  HEADSHOT!

Quote from: Netaungrot on March 13, 2008, 06:02:14 PM
(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/9928/puppyissorrytk9.jpg)

Why does that make me hungry...?

RP, thinks the cuter something is, the tastier it is.  Will eat tasty things for hooooooooouuuuuurs, if you know what I mean. 

Quote from: LMNO on March 13, 2008, 06:03:28 PM
BOOM!  HEADSHOT!

Should've dropped back and punted.

Just saying...

Brady throws a Hail Puppy to Moss.  Touchdown!

Quote from: Random Probability on March 13, 2008, 06:04:34 PM

Quote from: Netaungrot on March 13, 2008, 06:02:14 PM
(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/9928/puppyissorrytk9.jpg)

Why does that make me hungry...?

RP, thinks the cuter something is, the tastier it is.  Will eat tasty things for hooooooooouuuuuurs, if you know what I mean. 

The primate reaction to cute and fluffy always struck me as misdirected primal instinct.

You salivate, your heart rate increases, pupils dilate, somewhere deep down inside ... you know exactly what you're supposed to do with it :evil:

baby ones provoke the deepest reaction. The babies are easier to catch. Coincidence?

It's not the action of the marine in question that is the real subject of this thread, imo.  It's the apparent stigma that attaches itself to a war vet that going apeshit is ok, even if that going apeshit results in tragic death and loss.

Quote from: SillyCybin on March 13, 2008, 06:11:56 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 13, 2008, 06:04:34 PM

Quote from: Netaungrot on March 13, 2008, 06:02:14 PM
(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/9928/puppyissorrytk9.jpg)

Why does that make me hungry...?

RP, thinks the cuter something is, the tastier it is.  Will eat tasty things for hooooooooouuuuuurs, if you know what I mean. 

The primate reaction to cute and fluffy always struck me as misdirected primal instinct.

You salivate, your heart rate increases, pupils dilate, somewhere deep down inside ... you know exactly what you're supposed to do with it :evil:

baby ones provoke the deepest reaction. The babies are easier to catch. Coincidence?

Dude, this makes so much sense it's not even funny. I know someone who kept baby ducks for a while, and he frequently expressed a strong desire to bite their heads off.

Sounds like he watched too many documentaries on Ozzy Osborne.

Quote from: Jenne on March 13, 2008, 06:38:26 PM
It's not the action of the marine in question that is the real subject of this thread, imo.  It's the apparent stigma that attaches itself to a war vet that going apeshit is ok, even if that going apeshit results in tragic death and loss.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement entirely in this case, but you do make a good point as a general principle.

The subtext of my argument is that stray dogs are considered vermin due to the risks of rabies and dog attacks.  I suspect that the overwhelming majority of troops are rather partial to dogs, so they might have a bit of a problem putting them in the same category as rats and cockroaches.

Then again, it is a statistical certainty that at least one guy out there actually gets off on killing dogs (furry snuff fetish goes where?).

The majority of troops are just like the majority of humans in general.  Pathological people are a subset of any other group by label.  So, you're going to have your freaks and your idiots and your assclowns everywhere, and they're usually a smaller percentage of the more boring, law-abiding whole.

I see the main issue here as the aftermath of the act rather than the act itself.  As I said before, the act itself was patently BAD, not advisable, illegal, whatever.  But the consequences and ensuing furor, as well as what's at the root of said furor, is the crux of the matter.

Throwing live puppies off a cliff is rather a red herring to the real, underlying discussion, in other words.

<------------------------- cliff

RP,

You seem to be assuming that the soldier's entire chain of command was aware of the puppy-tossing incident prior to the video catching the public eye. I can't even begin to imagine how you came to that conclusion.

The other notion you keep bringing up is that dogs in Iraq may be rabid and are therefore dangerous and in need of extermination. Need I even point out what a buttfucking stupid argument this is? If a soldier encounters a vicious or visibly sick dog/rat/cat/bunny that is interfering with his orders, he should kill it. Otherwise, soldiers are not the Orkin man. 

Lastly, even if there was a valid reason for killing the animal, the METHOD BY WHICH HE CHOSE TO DO SO REFLECTS A DISCIPLINE PROBLEM. If not addressed and counseled, that soldier is a discipline problem, and it appears that his fellows and superior officer are also discipline problems for allowing his behavior to go unchallenged and undisciplined.

Quote from: Nigel on March 13, 2008, 09:39:31 PM
RP,

You seem to be assuming that the soldier's entire chain of command was aware of the puppy-tossing incident prior to the video catching the public eye. I can't even begin to imagine how you came to that conclusion.

The other notion you keep bringing up is that dogs in Iraq may be rabid and are therefore dangerous and in need of extermination. Need I even point out what a buttfucking stupid argument this is? If a soldier encounters a vicious or visibly sick dog/rat/cat/bunny that is interfering with his orders, he should kill it. Otherwise, soldiers are not the Orkin man. 

Lastly, even if there was a valid reason for killing the animal, the METHOD BY WHICH HE CHOSE TO DO SO REFLECTS A DISCIPLINE PROBLEM. If not addressed and counseled, that soldier is a discipline problem, and it appears that his fellows and superior officer are also discipline problems for allowing his behavior to go unchallenged and undisciplined.

Infantry squads are extremely tight-knit organizations.  It is practically impossible to so much as fart without at least three other guys knowing about it.  In this case, the other Marines in the video are, without a doubt, the rest of his fireteam.  Squads don't maneuver very far from their platoons, and that dog made a helluva racket doing its Screaming Eagle impersonation, so it is difficult to imagine that more Marines were not aware of the incident.  So either everyone in his fireteam knew and didn't care, or everyone in his squad knew and didn't care, or (more than likely) everyone in his platoon knew and didn't care.  This points towards an official position in favor of killing stray dogs.

While I doubt Marines are performing dedicated anti-dog operations (that even sounds lulzy), I had heard that in some areas stray animals were a problem. I can definitely see the utility of reducing potential disease vectors.  In fact, I believe most cities in the US have a dedicated bunch of folks who routinely round up strays and poison them.  Iraq seems to be a bit deficient in that area.  As for the danger, there have been cases of personnel being exposed to rabies, and the gov't has taken a rather anti-dog stance.  Remember, these are the same people who mandated Anthrax vaccines even though biological warfare wasn't a credible threat.  They do tend to be a bit pro-active when it comes to diseases.

Your last paragraph does raise some interesting questions, and I believe it to be at the heart of the matter.  I for one am interested now more than ever in discovering just what the Marines of 1/3 were thinking during their last deployment.  They had their shit wired pretty fucking tight.  Hell, ask your dad.  They didn't lose a single man during a seven month deployment.  They were either hyper-vigilant and/or very lucky.  My guess is that they routinely put down dogs during patrols and the puppy incident, while being unorthodox, didn't wrinkle any eyebrows.  So I reiterate: dogs == cockroaches. 

Quote from: triple zero on March 13, 2008, 09:14:11 PM

AAAAAAAIYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp
                        \
(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/9928/puppyissorrytk9.jpg)

dumbfuck soldier ----------------------->

<------------------------- cliff

                     "Don't play with your food, Private Pyle!"
                      /
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9149/gunnyri8.th.jpg)

BOOM DROP KICK.

Personally, I had been rooting for the "he's a shithead" angle since the start.  I just mentioned he was a marine for "brave puppy killing troops" humour.

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 13, 2008, 05:07:31 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 13, 2008, 04:41:50 PM

Looking at this whole thing honestly, the problem I have with all of it, is that here we have a case where a Marine performed an action that was considered a non-event by the government at the time, but now they are going to ruin the lives of a handful of people over public sentiment rather than their own rule of law which originally found no fault with the incident.  Just the same, I feel confident in saying that the government will invoke plausible deniability with regards to this incident.

I have a problem with this arguement, since it applies that somehow the military and more important the government somehow should not be subjected to public sentiment, instead of the military and government is suppose to serve the public
if this marine did what he did, wether the dog had rabies or was the spawn of satan, in his backyard he probably would have been arrested if found out
we as a society have determened that form of behavior towards dogs and many forms of life are unacceptable, except for maybe for medical advancement or if your life are in imediate danger, or against rats, vermins or insects, ect.

having nothing to add to this thread that hasn't already been said (mostly by Nigel), I'd just like to point out that rats are not vermin and are, in fact, better company than most people.

Rats are too vermin - they breed out of control, eat grain and spread disease.

Just like humans

Unlike most humans however, rats are loyal, intelligent and amusing creatures

And they can spread biological weapons without even trying.  PLAGUE!!'@@1"2!!

Quote from: East Coast Hustle on March 13, 2008, 11:44:19 PM

Quote from: Thurnez Isa on March 13, 2008, 05:07:31 PM

Quote from: Random Probability on March 13, 2008, 04:41:50 PM

Looking at this whole thing honestly, the problem I have with all of it, is that here we have a case where a Marine performed an action that was considered a non-event by the government at the time, but now they are going to ruin the lives of a handful of people over public sentiment rather than their own rule of law which originally found no fault with the incident.  Just the same, I feel confident in saying that the government will invoke plausible deniability with regards to this incident.

I have a problem with this arguement, since it applies that somehow the military and more important the government somehow should not be subjected to public sentiment, instead of the military and government is suppose to serve the public
if this marine did what he did, wether the dog had rabies or was the spawn of satan, in his backyard he probably would have been arrested if found out
we as a society have determened that form of behavior towards dogs and many forms of life are unacceptable, except for maybe for medical advancement or if your life are in imediate danger, or against rats, vermins or insects, ect.

having nothing to add to this thread that hasn't already been said (mostly by Nigel), I'd just like to point out that rats are not vermin and are, in fact, better company than most people.

110% agree
the damn landlord here wont let me have a few pet rats... yet half the people here have cats
:x

Quote from: Thurnez Isa link=topic=15466.msg494018#msg494018
the damn landlord here wont let me have a few pet rats... yet half the people here have cats
:x
/quote]

That sucks! Rats are awesome!

Quote from: Pope Pope XXIII on March 14, 2008, 02:58:33 AM

Quote from: Thurnez Isa link=topic=15466.msg494018#msg494018
the damn landlord here wont let me have a few pet rats... yet half the people here have cats
:x

That sucks! Rats are awesome!

But they aren't as tasty as dog.  :lulz:

This thread makes me hate humanity moar and moar everyday.

I haven't read this thread, or even sen the video.

But here is an old WOMP, from my early days.

(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/BMWCat-1.jpg)

Quote from: Pope Pope XXIII on March 14, 2008, 02:58:33 AM

Quote from: Thurnez Isa link=topic=15466.msg494018#msg494018
the damn landlord here wont let me have a few pet rats... yet half the people here have cats
:x
/quote]

That sucks! Rats are awesome!

Attn Noob made a tag fuckup in aisle 3! Admin to aisle 3 pls - we have a mess to clean up  :lulz:

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/forumspecific/bbcode.jpg)




yes, we will tease you for every mistake you make, P23.


just kidding....?




that dangling question mark, above, should be read like the THE END....? at the end of B-Horror movies.

Man Skydives with Lolcat.

http://gizmodo.com/368026/cat-jumps-off-a-plane-lands-on-its-legs

I ahve nothing to say.

 :omg:

Quote from: Random Probability on March 13, 2008, 10:16:29 PM

Infantry squads are extremely tight-knit organizations.  It is practically impossible to so much as fart without at least three other guys knowing about it.  In this case, the other Marines in the video are, without a doubt, the rest of his fireteam.  Squads don't maneuver very far from their platoons, and that dog made a helluva racket doing its Screaming Eagle impersonation, so it is difficult to imagine that more Marines were not aware of the incident.  So either everyone in his fireteam knew and didn't care, or everyone in his squad knew and didn't care, or (more than likely) everyone in his platoon knew and didn't care.  This points towards an official position in favor of killing stray dogs.

Wait... in what way are "his squad and others in his immediate proximity" his "entire chain of command"?

Quote
While I doubt Marines are performing dedicated anti-dog operations (that even sounds lulzy), I had heard that in some areas stray animals were a problem. I can definitely see the utility of reducing potential disease vectors.  In fact, I believe most cities in the US have a dedicated bunch of folks who routinely round up strays and poison them.  Iraq seems to be a bit deficient in that area.  As for the danger, there have been cases of personnel being exposed to rabies, and the gov't has taken a rather anti-dog stance.  Remember, these are the same people who mandated Anthrax vaccines even though biological warfare wasn't a credible threat.  They do tend to be a bit pro-active when it comes to diseases.

Right... I can Google too... and that doesn't affect or change what I said, at all. If an animal is a threat or impedes a soldier's ability to carry out orders, it's one thing, but they aren't out on puppy-hunting missions so using the "dogs are potential disease vectors" argument doesn't hold water.

And no, wherever you heard that most cities in the US have a dedicated bunch of folks who routinely round up strays and poison them, it's misleading at best. We have Animal Control here, which does indeed pick up stray dogs, cats, bunnies, hamsters, and any other loose pets, holds them in the hope that the owners will claim them, puts them up for adoption to the public, and all too often, sadly, has to put them to sleep because there just isn't room to house all the neglected/lost pets. Most of these animals have been vaccinated and are docile, tame pets who had irresponsible owners.

Sidepoint:

If in the event that I am ever confronted by a puppy suspected of rabies. I'm not picking it up.

That is, not only am I not picking it up to throw it off a cliff, I am not picking it up at all.

Quote from: Mangrove on March 18, 2008, 08:42:28 PM
Sidepoint:

If in the event that I am ever confronted by a puppy suspected of rabies. I'm not picking it up.

That is, not only am I not picking it up to throw it off a cliff, I am not picking it up at all.

Yeah, the whole "picking it up" part kind of negates the "it might have been rabid!" argument.

Quote from: Nigel on March 18, 2008, 08:54:04 PM

Quote from: Mangrove on March 18, 2008, 08:42:28 PM
Sidepoint:

If in the event that I am ever confronted by a puppy suspected of rabies. I'm not picking it up.

That is, not only am I not picking it up to throw it off a cliff, I am not picking it up at all.

Yeah, the whole "picking it up" part kind of negates the "it might have been rabid!" argument.

But it's a cute li'l fluffy PUPPAY!!!

Poor little guy....


RP, knows that dog is the other other white meat.

Wait...

Didn't this thread finally die?

/RP stabs thread and runs away

no, and neither did the puppy, which is now a zombie werecreature out to get the schmuck.

Quote from: saint aini on March 18, 2008, 11:24:23 PM
no, and neither did the puppy, which is now a zombie werecreature out to get the schmuck.

Sweet merciful fuck, that would be an awesome movie!

Call Hollywood! Get Spielberg!  We gots his next blockbuster!

Quote from: saint aini on March 18, 2008, 11:24:23 PM
no, and neither did the puppy, which is now a zombie werecreature out to get the schmuck.

the puppy's name was John???

John the puppy waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were US Marines in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to the other dogs were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a puppy for fourteen months. When he was young he watched the soldiers base and he said to dad "I want to go on the base daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY US MARINES"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the dusty heat of Iraq he knew there were soldiers.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "We got another of those rabies infected dustmops"
So John charged the US Marines.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the Marine.
"I will throw him off the cliff" said the Marine and he picked him up by the scruff of the neck. John growled and fought and scratched and not able to kill, as he was thrown off the cliff.
"No! I must kill the Marines" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the Marines"
And then John was a zombie.

 :lulz:

Quote from: Cain on March 19, 2008, 02:21:44 AMJohn the puppy waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were US Marines in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to the other dogs were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a puppy for fourteen months. When he was young he watched the soldiers base and he said to dad "I want to go on the base daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY US MARINES"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the dusty heat of Iraq he knew there were soldiers.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "We got another of those rabies infected dustmops"
So John charged the US Marines.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the Marine.
"I will throw him off the cliff" said the Marine and he picked him up by the scruff of the neck. John growled and fought and scratched and not able to kill, as he was thrown off the cliff.
"No! I must kill the Marines" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the Marines"
And then John was a zombie.

:mittens:

:thanks:

For those who do not regularly login on /x/

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/836450/1/DOOM_Repercussions_of_Evil

That is always so amazing.

My favorite pasta.

http://fanfictionredux.ytmnd.com/

A dramatic reading of the original fanfic.

Completely excellent!

ok allow me to recap, marine tosses puppy off cliff, everybody agrees that hurting puppies is bad, and that war is the cause for this, and that war is also bad. Then  a war breaks out(including polarisation and lots of  :argh!:) over what bit of this tangled web was TEH ULTIMATE CAUSE^TM. And nobody notices  any resemblance between the subject and the thread?

humans make me  :lulz:

Quote from: Regret on March 24, 2008, 02:22:23 AM
:deadhorse:

Fixed that for ya.

(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6701/peacefulslumberbygeodeldc3.jpg)

(http://www.missionconcert.co.nz/images/cliff_richard.jpg)

P3nt.

I have one more reason to kill you.

No one wants to see that in the morning.

http://www.innocentenglish.com/pug-licking-screen-clean/ (http://www.innocentenglish.com/pug-licking-screen-clean/)

AWWWW!!!!!

obviously the cuteness of this animal makes it more inhumane.

Quote from: triple zero on March 25, 2008, 12:53:53 PM
AWWWW!!!!!

obviously the cuteness of this animal makes it more inhumane.

I've yet to hear PETA decry the evils of household pesticides which murder trillions of animals every year.
:lulz:

PETA only decry things insomuch as it does not make life hard for them.

For more, see "PETA leader uses insulin advance that was tested on animals"

Quote from: Random Probability on March 25, 2008, 05:13:04 PM

Quote from: triple zero on March 25, 2008, 12:53:53 PM
AWWWW!!!!!

obviously the cuteness of this animal makes it more inhumane.

I've yet to hear PETA decry the evils of household pesticides which murder trillions of animals every year.
:lulz:

"I decry the evils of household pesticides which murder trillions of animals every year.  Get Season 1 of La Femme Nikita on DVD today."
                        /
(http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/5551/PetaWilson_Cohen_11856005_400.jpg)

What is La Femme Nikita?

I always had the impression it was late night soft core porn.

Distressed waif turns female hitman.

The original french version is better.

Peta Wilson for those of you playing at home. 

 

Quote from: LMNO on March 25, 2008, 07:02:10 PM
Distressed waif turns female hitman.

The original french version is better.

So basically I was right.  That sounds like the plot of a bad porn film right there.

Could use more blowjobs, though.



LMNO
-Had the same critique regarding An inconvenient Truth.

Quote from: LMNO on March 25, 2008, 07:36:40 PM
Could use more blowjobs, though.



LMNO
-Had the same critique regarding any film with no blowjobs in.

Can we agree on one thing at least?

The 300, avec blowjobs?

To be honest, it was halfway there anyway....

Quote from: LMNO on March 25, 2008, 07:36:40 PM
Could use more female on male blowjobs, though.



LMNO
-Had the same critique regarding An inconvenient Truth.

Just lets make sure we're on the same page  :eek:

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, avec blowjobs?

 :argh!:

Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, avec blowjobs?

ITT - Cain reveals worrying Harry Potter/Templar connection.

 :lulz:

Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2008, 09:55:25 PM
:lulz:

Turns out the 'Chamber of Secrets' is part of the 11th degree.

Must... resist... urge... to write.... slashfic...

Quote from: LMNO on March 26, 2008, 12:31:00 PM
Must... resist... urge... to write.... slashfic...

DOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEEEET!

BREAKING: DUMBLEDORE THROWS HARRY OFF A CLIFF

That's cruel.

He deserved it.  Ever read one of those books?   :argh!:

on the topic of stoopid dog killing

"En el año 2007, Guillermo Vargas Habacuc, un supuesto artista, cogió a un perro abandonado de la calle, lo ató a una cuerda cortísima en la pared de una galería de arte y lo dejó allí para que muriera lentamente de hambre y sed:

Durante varios días, tanto el autor de semejante crueldad como los visitantes de la galería de arte presenciaron impasibles la agonía del pobre animal:

hasta que finalmente murió de inanición, seguramente tras haber pasado por un doloroso, absurdo e incomprensible calvario.

Pues eso no es todo: la prestigiosa Bienal Centroamericana de Arte decidió, incomprensiblemente, que la salvajada que acababa de cometer este sujeto era arte, y de este modo tan incomprensible Guillermo Vargas Habacuc ha sido invitado a repetir su cruel acción en dicha Bienal en 2008. "


most of you are now thinking TL:DR, ENGLISH MUTHAFUCKER

SUMMARY: artist finds street dog, ties it up in a gallery, writes on the wall
with dog food, and lets visitors watch it starve to death

that's okay because the artist had rabies.

Thats OK because its Art.

that's okay because at least he didn't throw the dog off a cliff.

What did he write?

doesn't matter, it was a dog, not a puppy.

Also, if that dog had being aiding terrorism, you'd know the media would be applauding its death via cliff/art/something right now.

BUMP

Quote from: Cain on March 19, 2008, 02:21:44 AM
John the puppy waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were US Marines in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to the other dogs were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a puppy for fourteen months. When he was young he watched the soldiers base and he said to dad "I want to go on the base daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY US MARINES"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the dusty heat of Iraq he knew there were soldiers.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "We got another of those rabies infected dustmops"
So John charged the US Marines.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the Marine.
"I will throw him off the cliff" said the Marine and he picked him up by the scruff of the neck. John growled and fought and scratched and not able to kill, as he was thrown off the cliff.
"No! I must kill the Marines" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the Marines"
And then John was a zombie.

:mittens:

Quote from: saint aini on March 11, 2008, 04:18:03 PM
As for the rape issue, Hoopla, I hope you are raped by a rabid pack of dogs or models who would rather be naked than wear fur.

:lulz:  Oh Aini, you nutcase racist, you still amuse me more than anyone else.

Quote from: Hoopla on December 16, 2009, 08:18:42 PM

Quote from: saint aini on March 11, 2008, 04:18:03 PM
As for the rape issue, Hoopla, I hope you are raped by a rabid pack of dogs or models who would rather be naked than wear fur.

:lulz:  Oh Aini, you nutcase racist, you still amuse me more than anyone else.

I was going to bump that, actually. Made me laugh until my beverage came up through my noise.

Goddamn that bitch was crazy.  :lulz:

So would you be if you'd been raped by black people as many times as she thought she'd been :cry:

Note that we haven't heard from her since Obama went into office... Duh Duh DUH.

 :lulz:

this whole thread made me go threw the motions. so here are some pics of what is the norm of soldiers and animals to make with the happy.

(http://www.theblogofrecord.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/war-dog-memorial.jpg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QgTvnPtrdMY/SvxZqK9DZWI/AAAAAAAAE-k/kup25Cu6FDY/s400/soldier-and-dog.jpg)

Both were later found thrown down the bottom of cliffs.

why dont you go throw this from a cliff? it probably won't mind. Or might come back and shit on you.  :horrormirth:

(http://www.wildlifeextra.com/images/fruit-bat_new.JPG)

Oh my god that thing is ADORABLE!!
If it were black it would look just like Darnell Leroy (kitten)

Fruit bats are THE BEST!

Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on December 19, 2009, 08:21:56 AM
Fruit bats are THE BEST!

Agreed! I wish i could own one. But my cats would probably freak.