https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ex-campaign-manager-sanders-is-considering-running-for-president-in-2020/ar-AAxZbX5?ocid=spartanntp
How many times can a man get mugged by the same people on the same street corner before people call him a rube?
Needless to say, whomever the democratic candidate is, the fight is on the left, not the right. Because we're dumb. So forget the progressive vote entirely, run a campaign that doesn't bother taking them into account.
The 2018 "blue wave" is going to be the biggest disappointment since the grand finale of Lost. I have rarely seen this level of political ineptitude, its like the Democratic party, on every wing, looked at Labour's first year under Corbyn and said "yeah, lets do that".
Quote from: Cain on May 29, 2018, 09:30:53 PM
The 2018 "blue wave" is going to be the biggest disappointment since the grand finale of Lost. I have rarely seen this level of political ineptitude, its like the Democratic party, on every wing, looked at Labour's first year under Corbyn and said "yeah, lets do that".
It's not even the party. Hell, the idea of going after the tax cuts isn't bad.
It's the left in general, which hates itself more than it hates Trump and McConnell. The mainstream dems and the progressives would far rather snipe each other than the GOP. In fact, I've noticed that the "progressives" ONLY snipe at dems, rather than sparing a little of their wrath for Trump. If you mention "Trump was caught shoving WWII veterans into traffic," the response will be "BUT HILLARY."
I am coming to believe that progressives are in fact republicans. There's no
functional difference, at any rate.
Where are you meeting these people? The progressives I've run across do want their candidates to be as far to the left as they are and get pissed when their only choice for a Democrat is someone who could have run as a 1970s Republican, but there's a lot of rage and bile for the GOP and Trump.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 29, 2018, 09:53:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 29, 2018, 09:30:53 PM
The 2018 "blue wave" is going to be the biggest disappointment since the grand finale of Lost. I have rarely seen this level of political ineptitude, its like the Democratic party, on every wing, looked at Labour's first year under Corbyn and said "yeah, lets do that".
It's not even the party. Hell, the idea of going after the tax cuts isn't bad.
It's the left in general, which hates itself more than it hates Trump and McConnell. The mainstream dems and the progressives would far rather snipe each other than the GOP. In fact, I've noticed that the "progressives" ONLY snipe at dems, rather than sparing a little of their wrath for Trump. If you mention "Trump was caught shoving WWII veterans into traffic," the response will be "BUT HILLARY."
I am coming to believe that progressives are in fact republicans. There's no functional difference, at any rate.
I think it plays a role. The party is in complete organisational disarray, from what I can see, so that has
everyone pushing their own objectives and making internal power plays instead of focusing on the task at hand. The weakness invites infighting, and everyone intent on refighting the 2016 primaries are going to be the worst offenders.
Quote from: LMNO on May 30, 2018, 01:06:06 PM
Where are you meeting these people? The progressives I've run across do want their candidates to be as far to the left as they are and get pissed when their only choice for a Democrat is someone who could have run as a 1970s Republican, but there's a lot of rage and bile for the GOP and Trump.
I meet this people in Tucson, on FB, and everywhere else anyone talks about any politics at all.
Most of the progressives I talk to say shit like "At least Hillary didn't win," as if she would have been as bad as THIS FUCKING SHIT.
I hate them, and I want them to get the government they deserve. In the face.
All I know is we're about 5 months away from the midterm election, and I have not seen the barest murmur of a coherent message from anywhere left of Mitch McConnell.
Oh, there's plenty of indignation and outrage, but nobody is SAYING anything. Not on TV, not on Twitter, not on the radio (I mean, I think radio still exists).
I think that, somehow, everyone still thinks Trump is some kind of glitch. They just assume it's an aberration and votes will magically materialize to fix the problem. Because this can't be America. Russia played a joke is all, and we're smarter now. Mmhmm.
Actually, people are saying things. Justice Democrats and Brand New Congress send me sales pitches disguised as essays a few times a week. They'd like to fix campaign financing and save public parks, because where they live it's still 1997 and there are no Nazis marching through their gated communities.
The rest of the Democrats are hard at work co-opting George W Bush's platform and hosting fundraisers with those Job Creators they pretend not to owe their careers to.
When November rolls around and the Democrats manage to blow the biggest opportunity they've had in decades, we will just start talking about 2020 and do it all over again. But this is as it should be. It's just what happens when you let humans make decisions.
Saw a meam today about how someday Trump will be dead or something, and thiss will all just be like a bad dream, again, or something. and I'm thinking whoever made or shared thins crap doesn't even come close to understanding the problem. a solid third of the voting population in this country is totally down with this shit, and most of the rest either don't care enough to even vote, or are too busy huffing their own farts to get their shit together enough to stop it from happening again in 2020.
At this point, I would put money on another 4 years of Trump and/or Pence.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on May 31, 2018, 05:09:43 AM
All I know is we're about 5 months away from the midterm election, and I have not seen the barest murmur of a coherent message from anywhere left of Mitch McConnell.
Oh, there's plenty of indignation and outrage, but nobody is SAYING anything. Not on TV, not on Twitter, not on the radio (I mean, I think radio still exists).
I think that, somehow, everyone still thinks Trump is some kind of glitch. They just assume it's an aberration and votes will magically materialize to fix the problem. Because this can't be America. Russia played a joke is all, and we're smarter now. Mmhmm.
Actually, people are saying things. Justice Democrats and Brand New Congress send me sales pitches disguised as essays a few times a week. They'd like to fix campaign financing and save public parks, because where they live it's still 1997 and there are no Nazis marching through their gated communities.
The rest of the Democrats are hard at work co-opting George W Bush's platform and hosting fundraisers with those Job Creators they pretend not to owe their careers to.
When November rolls around and the Democrats manage to blow the biggest opportunity they've had in decades, we will just start talking about 2020 and do it all over again. But this is as it should be. It's just what happens when you let humans make decisions.
I've seen Pelosi's mob talking about hitting the tax cuts in the face to support education.
It got like 4 seconds of air time.
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Or maybe I could herd cats until my balls explode in sheer frustration. The result would be EXACTLY THE SAME, except, yanno,
with cats.Or maybe I could just plan on the progressives shitting the bed, and adjust my personal plans accordingly.
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
When you're doing it from the "wrong side" of the divide. If I were bitching that the more mainstream lefties were all fucked in the head, it would be fine, because BERNIE CAN STILL WIN. HERE'S HOW.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 05, 2018, 08:08:31 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
When you're doing it from the "wrong side" of the divide. If I were bitching that the more mainstream lefties were all fucked in the head, it would be fine, because BERNIE CAN STILL WIN. HERE'S HOW.
It is worth pointing out that an "outsider" Senator form Oregon caused a media stir by approaching and getting turned away from an immigrant's children's detention center (and they had to call the cops on the senator), in order to direct the media et al toward this issue.
Meanwhile, "mainstream" Chuck Schumer tried to do a photo op next to a gas station to talk about slightly higher gas prices.
The point being, progressive objections to centrist Dems catering towards white middle class people's problems is, after all, a problem.
Merkley is the senator I hugged!
Quote from: LMNO on June 05, 2018, 08:28:12 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 05, 2018, 08:08:31 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
When you're doing it from the "wrong side" of the divide. If I were bitching that the more mainstream lefties were all fucked in the head, it would be fine, because BERNIE CAN STILL WIN. HERE'S HOW.
It is worth pointing out that an "outsider" Senator form Oregon caused a media stir by approaching and getting turned away from an immigrant's children's detention center (and they had to call the cops on the senator), in order to direct the media et al toward this issue.
Meanwhile, "mainstream" Chuck Schumer tried to do a photo op next to a gas station to talk about slightly higher gas prices.
The point being, progressive objections to centrist Dems catering towards white middle class people's problems is, after all, a problem.
I am all about making a ruckus. I am all about bringing down the noise. The question is
targeting.
Also, it's worth mentioning that, despite Schumer being a treacherous, ward-heeling hack, rising gas prices cause pain from the very bottom up. The white middle class will feel the pain long after the working class or the very poor. To me, a jump in gas prices from $1.98 to $2.85 is an annoyance. To the apprentices that work for my crews, it's crippling. And that's just for getting to work, let alone the increases in the cost of food, etc.
So what you have here is a guy that is very alarmed about some possible Abu Graib shit (or worse) going on involving children, and a guy who is clumsily trying to point out something that is going to fuck everyone. Granted, there's no argument who Schumer's target audience was, but if the issue is important to
everyone, does it matter?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it's great to applaud the guy looking out for the immigrant kids, and that I am bloody glad he's doing it, that doesn't imply that we should condemn the guy who is hollering about something that fucks EVERYONE, just because "everyone" includes "the white majority."
Another way to think about it is this: You MUST address flagrant injustices. You MUST ALSO address the underpinnings of your economy.
You have to do BOTH. If you can't or won't do both, then you are incompetent and/or useless in terms of running the government. The progressives will only do one, the dems will only do the other, and they are all furious at each other and won't work together, so we're all fucked. Actual Nazis will be in the congress, and everyone will continue saying "HOW DID WE GET HERE?"
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
It is absolutely impossible to widen the rifts. The problem here seems to be reciprocity. Progressives are all about pointing out the other side's flaws, but that shoe pinches fucking hard on the other foot, right? I spent the primaries getting shat on by Nigel and the other DNC hardliners for supporting Sanders, so I feel ya, but I have spent the following two years being shat on by the Berners for being so fucked as to vote against Trump in the general, because that meant voting for Clinton. A plague on all of you bastards. Seriously. Especially you.
The funny thing is, I agree with the progressive left in principle on every single subject. But in terms of "getting things done", what has
actually gotten accomplished? I mean, aside from the entire country being in the hands of our enemies?
And then there's this shit. Infighting on the left has basically cratered the left in California, which until now didn't face the prospect of a GOP gubernatorial candidate.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-rallies-california-supporters-fighting-blue-wave/ar-AAyetJ9?ocid=spartanntp
Well done, everyone on the left. You're sure showing those bastards on the left a thing or two.
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
Right, pointing out the problem to other people who may have time and resources to dedicate to organizing and fixing the problem is totally widening rifts :roll:
I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I know I certainly don't have time to organize to fix this kind of problem. Personally, I'm gonna complain 'till I'm blue in the face or I run out of SSRIs and nicotine patches. And I expect others who lack the time to do the same.
Not to mention, if you agree that these are problems, then this whole game of yours is just "shoot the messenger." That's like getting pissed at the Media for presenting a problem because they didn't decide to just try to fix the problem themselves. Do you think people should just not talk about problems at all, and just independently try to fix them with only a baseline, undiscussed understanding of them? At what point is ranting and discussing the problem too much discussion and not enough action?
For someone who's so against whining, you seem to be doing a lot of it.
Thing is, back to the basic, original issue: There is a sector of the progressive left that is already attempting to torpedo anyone on the left that does not meet their standards of purity, even if - especially if - it means the GOP maintains its stranglehold.
We are more or less being promised punishment for insufficient purity, the same way Trump is holding immigrant children hostage for his wall.
And I know myself well enough to know that I don't respond well to extortion.
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 10:51:20 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
Right, pointing out the problem to other people who may have time and resources to dedicate to organizing and fixing the problem is totally widening rifts :roll:
I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I know I certainly don't have time to organize to fix this kind of problem. Personally, I'm gonna complain 'till I'm blue in the face or I run out of SSRIs and nicotine patches. And I expect others who lack the time to do the same.
Not to mention, if you agree that these are problems, then this whole game of yours is just "shoot the messenger." That's like getting pissed at the Media for presenting a problem because they didn't decide to just try to fix the problem themselves. Do you think people should just not talk about problems at all, and just independently try to fix them with only a baseline, undiscussed understanding of them? At what point is ranting and discussing the problem too much discussion and not enough action?
For someone who's so against whining, you seem to be doing a lot of it.
I'm against whining and stopping there.
Funny how the left is full of "messengers" like you, who exempt themselves from actually doing a goddamn thing. Fuck your excuses.
Quote from: N E T on June 06, 2018, 12:48:35 AM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 10:51:20 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
Right, pointing out the problem to other people who may have time and resources to dedicate to organizing and fixing the problem is totally widening rifts :roll:
I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I know I certainly don't have time to organize to fix this kind of problem. Personally, I'm gonna complain 'till I'm blue in the face or I run out of SSRIs and nicotine patches. And I expect others who lack the time to do the same.
Not to mention, if you agree that these are problems, then this whole game of yours is just "shoot the messenger." That's like getting pissed at the Media for presenting a problem because they didn't decide to just try to fix the problem themselves. Do you think people should just not talk about problems at all, and just independently try to fix them with only a baseline, undiscussed understanding of them? At what point is ranting and discussing the problem too much discussion and not enough action?
For someone who's so against whining, you seem to be doing a lot of it.
I'm against whining and stopping there.
Funny how the left is full of "messengers" like you, who exempt themselves from actually doing a goddamn thing. Fuck your excuses.
Again, this begs the obvious question: What has been done? What has been accomplished?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 12:50:27 AM
Quote from: N E T on June 06, 2018, 12:48:35 AM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 10:51:20 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
Right, pointing out the problem to other people who may have time and resources to dedicate to organizing and fixing the problem is totally widening rifts :roll:
I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I know I certainly don't have time to organize to fix this kind of problem. Personally, I'm gonna complain 'till I'm blue in the face or I run out of SSRIs and nicotine patches. And I expect others who lack the time to do the same.
Not to mention, if you agree that these are problems, then this whole game of yours is just "shoot the messenger." That's like getting pissed at the Media for presenting a problem because they didn't decide to just try to fix the problem themselves. Do you think people should just not talk about problems at all, and just independently try to fix them with only a baseline, undiscussed understanding of them? At what point is ranting and discussing the problem too much discussion and not enough action?
For someone who's so against whining, you seem to be doing a lot of it.
I'm against whining and stopping there.
Funny how the left is full of "messengers" like you, who exempt themselves from actually doing a goddamn thing. Fuck your excuses.
Again, this begs the obvious question: What has been done? What has been accomplished?
Perhaps you could use motivated reasoning to accomplish something beyond a sense of smug satisfaction that your pessimistic outlook was confirmed?
But you're a real tough guy that doesn't afraid of risk right? Except the emotional risk of putting energy into political activities that very well could fail.....
It's safer to predict failure and do jack shit from the sidelines, isn't it?
Quote from: N E T on June 06, 2018, 01:00:37 AM
Perhaps you could use motivated reasoning to accomplish something beyond a sense of smug satisfaction that your pessimistic outlook was confirmed?
But you're a real tough guy that doesn't afraid of risk right? Except the emotional risk of putting energy into political activities that very well could fail.....
So, if I am reading this correctly, no accomplishments are listed. The sum total of the progressive movement, governmentally-speaking, is the neutering of anything to the left of Attila the Hun.
Wasn't there some Asian and/or communist guy who philosophized something like "Things have to get worse before they can get better"? I have a vague shadow of a memory of something like that. It was, like, Mao, or Confucius, or Sun Tzu, or something.
i.e. ...
1. Let everything go to shit, causing possibly irrevocable damage
2. ???
3. REVOLUTION!!!
Is this the current plan of a large section of The Left?
Quote from: N E T on June 06, 2018, 01:02:03 AM
It's safer to predict failure and do jack shit from the sidelines, isn't it?
The obvious solution, which is also the simplest one: Unite, organise and fight for change (through demonstration, awareness campaigns, legislation).
This requires setting aside any differences and selecting a simple achievable goal ( The U.S is currently the only first world nation voluntarily becoming a third world nation, a clear objective would be to stop that).
When you have a large enough body of people, change is easy to accomplish: starve systems of control of money, support the systems that align with your beliefs.
However, historically people will only unite when the boot has ground deeply enough into the collective faces. We should have learned from history at this point that we know we need to do this now before it gets worse.
The Conspiracy have learned a lot of new tricks (Alexa please open a channel to my observers, please give them an update that I have been thinking subversively again, tell them to up my superhero media injection to make those bad thoughts go away). They are more effective at the old tricks too, when the boot stomps it stomps fewer times and you get driven into the dirt faster.
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 06, 2018, 09:17:08 AM
Wasn't there some Asian and/or communist guy who philosophized something like "Things have to get worse before they can get better"? I have a vague shadow of a memory of something like that. It was, like, Mao, or Confucius, or Sun Tzu, or something.
i.e. ...
1. Let everything go to shit, causing possibly irrevocable damage
2. ???
3. REVOLUTION!!!
Is this the current plan of a large section of The Left?
You're talking about Accelerationism, I believe.
That is a bad route, that leads to meth and Nick Land.
Quote from: Cain on June 06, 2018, 01:45:36 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 06, 2018, 09:17:08 AM
Wasn't there some Asian and/or communist guy who philosophized something like "Things have to get worse before they can get better"? I have a vague shadow of a memory of something like that. It was, like, Mao, or Confucius, or Sun Tzu, or something.
i.e. ...
1. Let everything go to shit, causing possibly irrevocable damage
2. ???
3. REVOLUTION!!!
Is this the current plan of a large section of The Left?
You're talking about Accelerationism, I believe.
That is a bad route, that leads to meth and Nick Land.
I seriously had people telling me with STRAIGHT FACES that 4 years of Trump COULDN'T BE THAT BAD and that it would teach stubborn DNC people to love Bernie. I was a bit of a fan myself, and that stupid shit made me hate the very
idea of the progressive left. On the other hand, people telling me that I was the worst sort of racist for supporting Bernie in the primaries makes me want to shit all over the DNC hardliners. I'm certainly no fan of the right, either.
So basically, I fucking hate everyone. Every last motherfucker. I want that meteor, brothers and sisters, and I want it to land on YOU. THAT BEING SAID, I have family members that are vulnerable to the wash of white trash nationalism sweeping the nation, and I am going to vote against the GOP even if that means getting the Bernie poo OR the DNC stink on me. This should under no circumstances be taken as "Dok has seen the light"...No, Dok has
felt the heat, and I'm going to hate you all even more no matter how the next election turns out. It's hard to explain just how much I hate everyone right now ("everyone" being "anyone involved in any portion, at any level (right down to the voter) in American politics), and that I am feeling the forgiveness and mercifulness of a Tucson motorcycle cop right now. I have no intention of ever forgiving the shit that got said in 2015/2016, and
that is when people didn't know for sure how bad this would be, so the shit happening right now hasn't got a chance.
So if NET thinks he has a case of the ass at me for pointing out that his side doesn't DO shit except holler how much nothing they get accomplished, then I have to laugh. Fuck you, NET, and ALSO fuck the hardcore DNC. I hate you both, and if any of you
cared about me, you'd kill yourselves today.
(ETA: Obviously, Canadians and Eurospags get a pass on this.)
You, Dok, should read Nick Land.
He's like us, through a mirror darkly. After reading occult texts, poststructuralist philosophy and going on a massive meth binge (I swear to God, I'm not making this up), he concluded capitalism must become an endlessly intensifying process without end, leading to him creating the Neoreactionary movement. I believe he currently lives in China, which he sees as the closest thing to his preferred social model.
But generally, left and right accelerationism are excuses for making people as miserable as possible in order to enact your preferred policies. I can't say I'm really down with that.
Quote from: Cain on June 06, 2018, 01:45:36 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 06, 2018, 09:17:08 AM
Wasn't there some Asian and/or communist guy who philosophized something like "Things have to get worse before they can get better"? I have a vague shadow of a memory of something like that. It was, like, Mao, or Confucius, or Sun Tzu, or something.
i.e. ...
1. Let everything go to shit, causing possibly irrevocable damage
2. ???
3. REVOLUTION!!!
Is this the current plan of a large section of The Left?
You're talking about Accelerationism, I believe.
That is a bad route, that leads to meth and Nick Land.
Actually, I think it was Leninism, and 'heightening the contradictions.'
Maybe we should call this latest iteration "Sarandonism".
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/03/29/susan_sarandon_is_perfect_spokeswoman_for_neverhillary.html
The Dude:
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Donny:
I am the walrus.
The Dude:
You know what I'm trying to say...
Walter Sobchak:
That fucking bitch...
Donny:
I am the walrus.
Walter Sobchak:
shut the fuck up, Donny! V.I. Lenin. Vladimir Illanich Uleninov!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2018, 04:05:04 PM
So if NET thinks he has a case of the ass at me for pointing out that his side doesn't DO shit except holler how much nothing they get accomplished, then I have to laugh. Fuck you, NET, and ALSO fuck the hardcore DNC. I hate you both, and if any of you cared about me, you'd kill yourselves today.
(ETA: Obviously, Canadians and Eurospags get a pass on this.)
My side? Are you even on the Left or do you just pretend to be?
I'm not a progressive, so as much as you seem intent on shitting on someone who identifies with that movement, I'm more interested in actually accomplishing things that we all have in common.
I have to wonder if your de facto alliance is with every other violent white guy in the US that fantasizes about mass indiscriminate killings and casually encourages suicide. Fuck your entire worldview that's consistently invested in verbal abuse, demoralization, and dividing people rather than mustering the courage and self-determination necessary for building a world worth living in.
Which is all the more inexcusable in that you can so clearly see these problems—clearer than most—but actively poison every idea to make things less shitty while offering exactly zero ways foward. You are just another instance of what you hate on the Left but you lack enough self-awareness to see it.
Just like most pessimists, you're sitting on the sidelines spitting on anyone who is taking the risks of working towards a fairer world while you piss and moan about how awful eveyone is. How old are you for fucks sake?
You're a goddamn fucking coward with little to offer but some cheap laughs and empty talk.
Congratulations on doing the right wing's work for them out of some pathetic spiral of callous bullshit. Yeah, anger is important because it indicates what you actually care about, but perhaps it's more important as to what you actually do with it.
Quote from: LMNO on June 05, 2018, 03:53:33 PM
I can totally see a reasonable, even-handed discussion from this post onward.
Nailed it.
Quote from: N E T on June 13, 2018, 05:51:20 AM
My side? Are you even on the Left or do you just pretend to be?
I do hate to get involved in problems between two people, but I can't help but feel that this sentence kind of drives the underlying theme of this thread home.
Quote from: N E T on June 13, 2018, 05:51:20 AM
You're a goddamn fucking coward with little to offer but some cheap laughs and empty talk.
I am still waiting to hear what has been "accomplished".
It's worth noting that furious activity without results is not an accomplishment.
I'm not kidding, NET. Sell me. What exactly have you guys gotten done? Because from where I sit, you guys CARE, sure. You care SO MUCH that the left can't even talk to itself anymore. But in terms of actual accomplishment, all I see is that division. So correct my mistaken understanding; in terms of tangible results, what IS there?
I AM NOT N E T.
But I do call myself progressive (or at least way left of the DNC).
So: the DNC platform has adopted and moved towards a few of the progressive/Sanders ideas, namely: single payer healthcare; universal basic income; increased minimum wage; criminal justice reform; climate change.
I don't think this would have happened without a lot of people loudly asking for it from their local/primary elections. But I could be wrong.
In the "small steps" strategy, this is what would be expected from a grassroots push against the Democratic moderate status quo that currently exists in Congress.
It should be noted, however, that when the Big Bet is on the table, not voting for the "not perfect, but more probable" is akin to voting for the "a shit demon" option.
Quote from: LMNO on June 13, 2018, 07:37:09 PM
I AM NOT N E T.
But I do call myself progressive (or at least way left of the DNC).
So: the DNC platform has adopted and moved towards a few of the progressive/Sanders ideas, namely: single payer healthcare; universal basic income; increased minimum wage; criminal justice reform; climate change.
I don't think this would have happened without a lot of people loudly asking for it from their local/primary elections. But I could be wrong.
In the "small steps" strategy, this is what would be expected from a grassroots push against the Democratic moderate status quo that currently exists in Congress.
It should be noted, however, that when the Big Bet is on the table, not voting for the "not perfect, but more probable" is akin to voting for the "a shit demon" option.
What I'm saying. Ideally, we'd run the place like Norway. It CAN be done.
In practice, though, allowing the Perfect to murder the Good Enough in favor of "Orange Colostomy Bag Nazis" isn't "making the world a better place." I guess, though, that it COULD be called an accomplishment, same as Amelia Earhart accomplished something on her last flight. If her plane was loaded with poor folks and orphans or some shit. Ignominiously crash, take a bunch of poor bastards with you, and nobody will ever know or care about the details.
SO, all that being said, the only priority I am interested in is "getting the GOP out of power." I don't have many purity tests for people in a position to do that, other than "not a Nazi."
Because in a time when we are taking kids away from asylum-seekers and then putting those kids in actual cages with no oversight is not a time to sit and wank off to perfect ideals.
I hear you; and looks like you hear me.
So, now that I said my piece, I'm comfortable in my position of "if it doesn't sound like it's about me, it's not about me".
Quote from: LMNO on June 13, 2018, 07:53:54 PM
I hear you; and looks like you hear me.
So, now that I said my piece, I'm comfortable in my position of "if it doesn't sound like it's about me, it's not about me".
No, it was never about you. It was about an endless parade of people on FB (and one here, apparently), who tell me that we're better off with
actual Goddamn Nazis than we would with an admittedly flawed democratic candidate.
It fucking slays me. It is the very epitome of throwing toys out of the pram. It is throwing the lowest rung of society not only off the ladder but into the llama pit, because it looks good to the other top-knotted hipsters when
even postmodernism can never be good enough.I accuse you of many things, LMNO - and RIGHTFULLY SO, I MIGHT ADD - but shitty fucking logic isn't one of those things.
:lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 08:06:10 PM
It was about an endless parade of people on FB (and one here, apparently), who tell me that we're better off with actual Goddamn Nazis than we would with an admittedly flawed democratic candidate.
OK this is really starting to piss me off [and NB remember I'm a Brit here] but does it say somewhere in the sodding Constitution that everyfucker in fucking Trumpistan has to mindlessly parrot that Hillary Clinton was
"an admittedly flawed democratic candidate" ? We are talking about
politicians people, they are all bloody flawed, did you not get the memo? I am just about sick to screaming that one of the best candidates for the presidency in a long while will go down in history as "
admittedly flawed" It is like some kind of verbal tic that your whole damn nation has developed; its the ultimate unifying force that underlies the notion of Americanness; I have never heard any other candidate tarred with this brush before. Hillary must be so delighted to be unique amongst her peers. Everyfucker and his dutch uncle, every time the woman's name is mentioned, they just can't help themselves they blurt out "admittedly flawed" before they even think about it.
Some would say that her main flaw was having a vagina.
Quote from: LMNO on June 14, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
Some would say that her main flaw was having a vagina.
From my pov that is essentially the whole problem, glad that it is not just my ridiculous feminist sensitivity leading me to irrational and hysterical conclusions..
Her main flaw is that she campaigned badly.
But, yanno, we can just dismiss my point as "she has a vagina."
Quote from: MMIX on June 14, 2018, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 14, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
Some would say that her main flaw was having a vagina.
From my pov that is essentially the whole problem, glad that it is not just my ridiculous feminist sensitivity leading me to irrational and hysterical conclusions..
From my point of view, you can kiss my ass until the scabs all fall off.
Fuck both of you.
I'm out.
For those of you that have a problem with "admittedly flawed" there's no way you have any hope of winning back progressives. Meanwhile there's Net, who seems to prefer nazis. no wonder this country is becoming more and more obciously a shithole.
Hillary already had two terms as president. Her husband was busy getting blowjobs and snorting coke and she did the actual work. problem is that work included laying the groundwork for most of the things wrong with the country today. The laws passed in the first Clinton administration destroyed our welfare system, accelerated the filling of prisons, particularly with people of color, created Nafta and it's destruction of the economy, and deregulated the financial industry, paving the way for the crash of 2008. That's a touch worse than the sort of admittedly flawed that all politicians are. Hillary and her husband were responsible for changing the direction of the Democratic party to a more corporate machine that abandoned or even attacked many of those progresives fight to protect. That said, she was still far better than Trump, I voted for her, but pretending that she is no more flawed than most, or that the reason people dislike her is because she is a woman is just as bad as progressives who would rather have a Nazi. Worse in some ways because her campaign aided Trump's, seeing him as a more beatable opponent than saner Republicans, so she is partly responsible for him, and all of her supporters bear some of that blame.
It didn't look to me like LMNO was criticizing you with that vagina comment, Dok.
And forgive me for being Canadian but I think both you and NET have decent points here. If we could forgo from the usual PD.com bloodletting, this could be a very informative and educational discussion. I read an article today about Doug Ford's election which posited that people who don't follow politics closely get spooked easily by the recent speed of change, and reach out to people like Ford and like Trump as a way of holding on to what they know.
And these are largely whities, obviously. And what they want to hold on to is their own dominance in the hierarchy, since that's the only way they've ever known it.
I want to be clear: I think that is wrong.
But it was the first time it was explained to me in a way that made me understand where these people were coming from (obviously I have my own prejudices that I am working to overcome, which gives me a little insight into their view) and how Ford and Trump used these people.
The accusations Dok founded this thread on are not helping our cause much. They are founded accusations a lot of the time, but righteous indignation does not win battles by itself. Strategy does. Stepping away from the rhetoric to be a little objective about how we present ourselves could go a long long way.
I hope this is not interpreted as "stay in your place and be polite", as that is certainly not my intention.
And if I am flat out wrong, I am willing to learn why.
The above post was typed out on my phone and my eyes are getting old. Apologies if there were any spellcheck surprises.
Quote from: Hoopla on June 14, 2018, 10:32:24 PM
The accusations Dok founded this thread on are not helping our cause much. They are founded accusations a lot of the time, but righteous indignation does not win battles by itself.
I am no longer concerned with winning battles. I have seen the underside of enough buses.
Everyone is on their own, as far as I'm concerned, and can all go find their own hell in which to fry.
Like I said, I'm out.
I would also like to add that while I think NET has some good points early on in this thread, the ad hominems are not adding anything of value to the discussion.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 10:41:49 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on June 14, 2018, 10:32:24 PM
The accusations Dok founded this thread on are not helping our cause much. They are founded accusations a lot of the time, but righteous indignation does not win battles by itself.
I am no longer concerned with winning battles. I have seen the underside of enough buses.
Everyone is on their own, as far as I'm concerned, and can all go find their own hell in which to fry.
Like I said, I'm out.
Fair enough.
Its shit like this that makes me long for secession. This shit has been irreparably broken for decades now and All the systems put in place that could've possibly fixed it has also been smashed. I say let the West coast, New England, and Texas break off to do their own thing, and let Trump rule over the ashes. I say tear this clunker down for parts and start over.
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 14, 2018, 11:14:44 PM
Its shit like this that makes me long for secession. This shit has been irreparably broken for decades now and All the systems put in place that could've possibly fixed it has also been smashed. I say let the West coast, New England, and Texas break off to do their own thing, and let Trump rule over the ashes. I say tear this clunker down for parts and start over.
I gotta ask, what makes you think your state would be smarter on its own?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 11:55:36 PM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 14, 2018, 11:14:44 PM
Its shit like this that makes me long for secession. This shit has been irreparably broken for decades now and All the systems put in place that could've possibly fixed it has also been smashed. I say let the West coast, New England, and Texas break off to do their own thing, and let Trump rule over the ashes. I say tear this clunker down for parts and start over.
I gotta ask, what makes you think your state would be smarter on its own?
My state has legal weed, gay marriage, and quite decent universal health care. We also have the two richest men in the world and strong ties with the whole pacific rim. We've got strong environmental laws and quite good public transport. We held onto net neutrality when Trump got rid of it for the nation. There's plenty wrong with local government, but nowhere near as much as there is wrong with national government. I am fairly certain things would be better here without Texas and Florida and New York and California thinking they have any right to tell us how to run things. Things would also be better here if folks would quit trying to tell Alaska and Arkansas and Vermont and Oklahoma what to do and focus on our own back yard. I actually think things would even get better in the states that are explicitly stupider than the federal government, at least in the long run, because they'd have nobody else to blame for their problems.
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
WTF?
It was Roger who advised in 2016 to "hold your nose and vote for Clinton".
Which I did. And I hate that "must be brought to heel", Democrat-in-name-only cunt. I lived through eight years of Billary, during which time my kids were little and I was on welfare because that was the only way to stay home, and they killed that. So who's watching the kids? I won't go into that here. Suffice to say that the trauma and bullshit outlasted the Clinton administration.
But hey, y'know what? We're used to that kind of shit. As Roger said, "We lived through it. We might not live through this."
And I went forth, and took a couple of shots of gin, and held my nose and voted for Hillary.
That is NOT what I would call "splitting the left". Voting for a bitch you hate and would relish knocking her teeth into the back of her throat in order to present a united front against the fucking nazis is just the opposite.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 05, 2018, 11:11:24 PM
Thing is, back to the basic, original issue: There is a sector of the progressive left that is already attempting to torpedo anyone on the left that does not meet their standards of purity, even if - especially if - it means the GOP maintains its stranglehold.
We are more or less being promised punishment for insufficient purity, the same way Trump is holding immigrant children hostage for his wall.
And I know myself well enough to know that I don't respond well to extortion.
Uniforms. Huddling under a blanket sniffing each others' farts. Etc.
I don't respond well to ANY of it.
Quote from: Faust on June 06, 2018, 01:08:13 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 06, 2018, 01:02:03 AM
It's safer to predict failure and do jack shit from the sidelines, isn't it?
The obvious solution, which is also the simplest one: Unite, organise and fight for change (through demonstration, awareness campaigns, legislation).
This requires setting aside any differences and selecting a simple achievable goal ( The U.S is currently the only first world nation voluntarily becoming a third world nation, a clear objective would be to stop that).
When you have a large enough body of people, change is easy to accomplish: starve systems of control of money, support the systems that align with your beliefs.
However, historically people will only unite when the boot has ground deeply enough into the collective faces. We should have learned from history at this point that we know we need to do this now before it gets worse.
The Conspiracy have learned a lot of new tricks (Alexa please open a channel to my observers, please give them an update that I have been thinking subversively again, tell them to up my superhero media injection to make those bad thoughts go away). They are more effective at the old tricks too, when the boot stomps it stomps fewer times and you get driven into the dirt faster.
The boot ground the people to powder some time ago. Otherwise there would have been at least an assassination
attempt on the Tangerine Shitgibbon, and somebody would have at least
tried to blow a hole in the walls of the concentration camps and get the kids out of those fucking dog kennels. (I am not advocating this as it's certain death, but doesn't someone, somewhere have inoperable cancer or just not give a fuck?)
The people lost their nuts. And here we are.
Quote from: LMNO on June 13, 2018, 07:37:09 PM
I AM NOT N E T.
But I do call myself progressive (or at least way left of the DNC).
So: the DNC platform has adopted and moved towards a few of the progressive/Sanders ideas, namely: single payer healthcare; universal basic income; increased minimum wage; criminal justice reform; climate change.
I don't think this would have happened without a lot of people loudly asking for it from their local/primary elections. But I could be wrong.
In the "small steps" strategy, this is what would be expected from a grassroots push against the Democratic moderate status quo that currently exists in Congress.
It should be noted, however, that when the Big Bet is on the table, not voting for the "not perfect, but more probable" is akin to voting for the "a shit demon" option.
"The lesser evil is still an evil.
But it's a LESSER evil."
Stella
USA (& probably has Stockholm Syndrome at this point.)
Quote from: MMIX on June 14, 2018, 05:38:13 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 08:06:10 PM
It was about an endless parade of people on FB (and one here, apparently), who tell me that we're better off with actual Goddamn Nazis than we would with an admittedly flawed democratic candidate.
OK this is really starting to piss me off [and NB remember I'm a Brit here] but does it say somewhere in the sodding Constitution that everyfucker in fucking Trumpistan has to mindlessly parrot that Hillary Clinton was "an admittedly flawed democratic candidate" ? We are talking about politicians people, they are all bloody flawed, did you not get the memo? I am just about sick to screaming that one of the best candidates for the presidency in a long while will go down in history as "admittedly flawed" It is like some kind of verbal tic that your whole damn nation has developed; its the ultimate unifying force that underlies the notion of Americanness; I have never heard any other candidate tarred with this brush before. Hillary must be so delighted to be unique amongst her peers. Everyfucker and his dutch uncle, every time the woman's name is mentioned, they just can't help themselves they blurt out "admittedly flawed" before they even think about it.
Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 13, 2018, 07:41:52 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 13, 2018, 07:37:09 PM
I AM NOT N E T.
But I do call myself progressive (or at least way left of the DNC).
So: the DNC platform has adopted and moved towards a few of the progressive/Sanders ideas, namely: single payer healthcare; universal basic income; increased minimum wage; criminal justice reform; climate change.
I don't think this would have happened without a lot of people loudly asking for it from their local/primary elections. But I could be wrong.
In the "small steps" strategy, this is what would be expected from a grassroots push against the Democratic moderate status quo that currently exists in Congress.
It should be noted, however, that when the Big Bet is on the table, not voting for the "not perfect, but more probable" is akin to voting for the "a shit demon" option.
What I'm saying. Ideally, we'd run the place like Norway. It CAN be done.
In practice, though, allowing the Perfect to murder the Good Enough in favor of "Orange Colostomy Bag Nazis" isn't "making the world a better place." I guess, though, that it COULD be called an accomplishment, same as Amelia Earhart accomplished something on her last flight. If her plane was loaded with poor folks and orphans or some shit. Ignominiously crash, take a bunch of poor bastards with you, and nobody will ever know or care about the details.
THIS.
In the end, nothing but fodder for gossip and tabloids: "They found her bones!" "The Japanese shot her down!" etc.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 09:18:29 PM
Her main flaw is that she campaigned badly.
But, yanno, we can just dismiss my point as "she has a vagina."
Her vagina never got a word in edgewise when she was saying all that racist stuff or cheering her hubby for the shit he pulled.
Quote from: Pergamos on June 15, 2018, 12:12:21 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 11:55:36 PM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 14, 2018, 11:14:44 PM
Its shit like this that makes me long for secession. This shit has been irreparably broken for decades now and All the systems put in place that could've possibly fixed it has also been smashed. I say let the West coast, New England, and Texas break off to do their own thing, and let Trump rule over the ashes. I say tear this clunker down for parts and start over.
I gotta ask, what makes you think your state would be smarter on its own?
My state has legal weed, gay marriage, and quite decent universal health care. We also have the two richest men in the world and strong ties with the whole pacific rim. We've got strong environmental laws and quite good public transport. We held onto net neutrality when Trump got rid of it for the nation. There's plenty wrong with local government, but nowhere near as much as there is wrong with national government. I am fairly certain things would be better here without Texas and Florida and New York and California thinking they have any right to tell us how to run things. Things would also be better here if folks would quit trying to tell Alaska and Arkansas and Vermont and Oklahoma what to do and focus on our own back yard. I actually think things would even get better in the states that are explicitly stupider than the federal government, at least in the long run, because they'd have nobody else to blame for their problems.
Yea, basically this.
Also more generally speaking, I'm just fucking tired of having to wrestle with the Midwest and the Bible Belt for the privilege of living in the 21st century. Every small step forward we try to take is done with the ball and chain of the South's ignorant bullshit. They wanna live in some imagined mythical Good old Days, I say let them. I wanna live in the future, I want my goddamn jetpack.
This country has been in an abusive relationship with itself for too long and it's about time we got out. There is nothing holding us together as a people anymore and I'm tired of pretending there is.
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 15, 2018, 02:14:11 AM
Also more generally speaking, I'm just fucking tired of having to wrestle with the Midwest and the Bible Belt for the privilege of living in the 21st century. Every small step forward we try to take is done with the ball and chain of the South's ignorant bullshit. They wanna live in some imagined mythical Good old Days, I say let them. I wanna live in the future, I want my goddamn jetpack.
This country has been in an abusive relationship with itself for too long and it's about time we got out. There is nothing holding us together as a people anymore and I'm tired of pretending there is.
I'd happily go back in time for the privilege of women - or men if you want to switch it up - having the privilege of staying home with the kids instead of going to stupid jobs doing mindless repetitive bullshit, all the while being scared shitless re; the kids, stuff made to last like it hasn't been since the 1940's, and republicans that aren't totally murdering evil motherfuckers. Just get rid of the racist shit and it was a good era.
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 15, 2018, 02:28:13 AM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 15, 2018, 02:14:11 AM
Also more generally speaking, I'm just fucking tired of having to wrestle with the Midwest and the Bible Belt for the privilege of living in the 21st century. Every small step forward we try to take is done with the ball and chain of the South's ignorant bullshit. They wanna live in some imagined mythical Good old Days, I say let them. I wanna live in the future, I want my goddamn jetpack.
This country has been in an abusive relationship with itself for too long and it's about time we got out. There is nothing holding us together as a people anymore and I'm tired of pretending there is.
I'd happily go back in time for the privilege of women - or men if you want to switch it up - having the privilege of staying home with the kids instead of going to stupid jobs doing mindless repetitive bullshit, all the while being scared shitless re; the kids, stuff made to last like it hasn't been since the 1940's, and republicans that aren't totally murdering evil motherfuckers. Just get rid of the racist shit and it was a good era.
which would be just fine except most of the people who long for that era these days tend to see the racism as a feature rather than a bug.
tho, to get back to Dok's original question, at this point, how could we possibly screw things up worse than they already are? I'd like the potential hypothetical problems of California self-governing than the assured catastrophic problems of Trump pulling us into WW3
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 15, 2018, 03:46:37 AM
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 15, 2018, 02:28:13 AM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 15, 2018, 02:14:11 AM
Also more generally speaking, I'm just fucking tired of having to wrestle with the Midwest and the Bible Belt for the privilege of living in the 21st century. Every small step forward we try to take is done with the ball and chain of the South's ignorant bullshit. They wanna live in some imagined mythical Good old Days, I say let them. I wanna live in the future, I want my goddamn jetpack.
This country has been in an abusive relationship with itself for too long and it's about time we got out. There is nothing holding us together as a people anymore and I'm tired of pretending there is.
I'd happily go back in time for the privilege of women - or men if you want to switch it up - having the privilege of staying home with the kids instead of going to stupid jobs doing mindless repetitive bullshit, all the while being scared shitless re; the kids, stuff made to last like it hasn't been since the 1940's, and republicans that aren't totally murdering evil motherfuckers. Just get rid of the racist shit and it was a good era.
which would be just fine except most of the people who long for that era these days tend to see the racism as a feature rather than a bug.
Yeah, but rationally, their opinions don't count, because A. willfully ignorant and B. psychologically disordered.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because some brainwashed po'buckers like it for all the wrong reasons. Nobody (sane) said we have to take the whole segregated, lynching package. Single income households and quality goods would be a VAST improvement.
Oh by the way, whatever the faults of that generation was, they DID hate nazis.
I suppose, when you are telling someone to fuck off, you should probably elaborate just a little.
A "flawed candidate" is a candidate that
loses, especially when they should have stomped all over their opponent in 6 pound shit-kickers. In Clinton's case, she failed to change gears. In the primary, her best strategy is the one that she in fact used: She let the machine handle Sanders. This is well and good...A candidate who can't grab the levers of power has no business running for president. If you have control of the machine in the primary, this is PRECISELY what you do.
But then she won the primary, and
she ignored her candidate in the general election. She campaigned badly
because she didn't campaign. She responded to questions about issues with slogans, she designated certain states as "firewall" states (Wisconsin, etc) that turned out to NOT be safe states, and she relied on the machine to deal with someone who was not responsive to the machine (That would be Trump).
You cannot beat a populist with slogans and platitutes. "Stronger together" is not a fucking policy statement. Her damage control was just fine, but that's not enough. In short, she didn't win
because she didn't run.
THAT BEING SAID, I am a little fucking sick and tired of being accused semi-annually of being a sexist, a libertarian, a racist, and/or a Nazi as the very first fucking option.
So yeah, fuck right off.
To a few others:
Quote
Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person.
She's not a bad person, she's just arrogant and can't hide it.
Permagos:
WTF, dude? There you are, standing there with your fucking underwear on your head. "She was already president." No she fucking wasn't. She was the Goddamn first lady, and if you think old Bill did nothing but snort blow and bang interns, then you should probably take a deep breath and pull your head out of your 4th point of contact, because that is the most fundamentally retarded fucking thing that has been said this week. You know better than that, or at least you fucking should.
Really. Just look at you fucking people.
Really.
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 15, 2018, 12:30:52 AM
Quote from: LMNO on June 13, 2018, 07:37:09 PM
I AM NOT N E T.
But I do call myself progressive (or at least way left of the DNC).
So: the DNC platform has adopted and moved towards a few of the progressive/Sanders ideas, namely: single payer healthcare; universal basic income; increased minimum wage; criminal justice reform; climate change.
I don't think this would have happened without a lot of people loudly asking for it from their local/primary elections. But I could be wrong.
In the "small steps" strategy, this is what would be expected from a grassroots push against the Democratic moderate status quo that currently exists in Congress.
It should be noted, however, that when the Big Bet is on the table, not voting for the "not perfect, but more probable" is akin to voting for the "a shit demon" option.
"The lesser evil is still an evil.
But it's a LESSER evil."
Stella
USA (& probably has Stockholm Syndrome at this point.)
It should be reasonable to look at a bad option A and worst case scenario B and say "I'll take A, please, unless you have a viable C that's better than both"
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 15, 2018, 02:14:11 AM
Also more generally speaking, I'm just fucking tired of having to wrestle with the Midwest and the Bible Belt for the privilege of living in the 21st century. Every small step forward we try to take is done with the ball and chain of the South's ignorant bullshit. They wanna live in some imagined mythical Good old Days, I say let them. I wanna live in the future, I want my goddamn jetpack.
This country has been in an abusive relationship with itself for too long and it's about time we got out. There is nothing holding us together as a people anymore and I'm tired of pretending there is.
Well, to be fair, that's also the case in a lot of blue states as well, especially when you get out of the main high density population areas. Or even within them. I always thought Boston was in a good spot until I started paying attention. Then I was like, "oh, we're racist, backward pricks too, we just don't make it obvious by shouting the n word"
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 15, 2018, 11:03:19 AM
I suppose, when you are telling someone to fuck off, you should probably elaborate just a little.
A "flawed candidate" is a candidate that loses, especially when they should have stomped all over their opponent in 6 pound shit-kickers. In Clinton's case, she failed to change gears. In the primary, her best strategy is the one that she in fact used: She let the machine handle Sanders. This is well and good...A candidate who can't grab the levers of power has no business running for president. If you have control of the machine in the primary, this is PRECISELY what you do.
But then she won the primary, and she ignored her candidate in the general election. She campaigned badly because she didn't campaign. She responded to questions about issues with slogans, she designated certain states as "firewall" states (Wisconsin, etc) that turned out to NOT be safe states, and she relied on the machine to deal with someone who was not responsive to the machine (That would be Trump).
You cannot beat a populist with slogans and platitutes. "Stronger together" is not a fucking policy statement. Her damage control was just fine, but that's not enough. In short, she didn't win because she didn't run.
THAT BEING SAID, I am a little fucking sick and tired of being accused semi-annually of being a sexist, a libertarian, a racist, and/or a Nazi as the very first fucking option.
So yeah, fuck right off.
Thanks for explaining your take on why Hillary was not a "good candidate", its much appreciated. I found it interesting because I've not come across many people who actually take the trouble to offer an analysis of any sort as to why she was a "flawed candidate". I would however point out that, in all likelihood, if not for James Comey, an electoral system designed to pander to the "Slave States", and a whole bunch of Russian interferers of various stripes, the candidate who won the majority of the votes would be President and we would not actually be having this conversation.
I watched the candidate debates live and I don't recall Hillary's answers being slogans, certainly not "Better together", which you must admit beats the fucking fuck out of "MAGA" or "Lock her up" or "Drain the swamp". I am not sure how a mainstream political party is actually supposed to deal with the racist, sexist shitshow that was the Trump campaign but it has surely brought some of the nasty underbelly of US political views into the light of day and I don't think that many on the reasonable side of the dabate are particularly happy about that.
I stopped watching and reading British news after the Brexit, the pain was just too raw. Instead I took out subscriptions to The WaPo and NYT and learned to love cable news. Since I have been following US media I have noticed this weird tendency that was the thing I commented on. It seems to be almost impossible for US commentators to mention Hillary without some mention of what a "uniquely hated candidate" she was. Doesn't matter which side you look at they don't seem to be able to get past the "FLAWED" bit. America needs an excuse for electing Trump - even a lot on the right do, Corker, Flake etc Tell you what, lets blame it on Hillary. What do you think the combined weight of twenty-some years of negative press and structural misogyny has on your opinion of Hillary, whatever you actual politics. And hyperbole, the fucking hyperbole! Murderer [multiple], crook [a bit close to the wind but never totally proven], baby eater . . . BABY EATER!!!, serial pedophile, fixer for her "can't keep it in his pants husband" jesus fucking christ america GET A GRIP. And if you are not saying all that shit about her then you need to think about whether "FLAWED CANDIDATE" "MOST UNPOPULAR CANDIDATE" don't just help to support the fictions that the RWNJ's have been selling about her for longer than the lifetimes of a lot of voters in the 2016 election.
Here's a quick thought experiment:- if Hillary had won do you think would you feel the same pressing need to tell anyone who will listen just what a "flawed candidate" she was? Do you think maybe the enormity of what has happened to the US since the Trumpocalypse creates some kind of emotional need for some people to blame Hillary for not being able to save them from themselves [and nope I'm not including the 35-40% of Trumps true believers]
@Stella, you said
"Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person." You're absolutely right but it is also true that just because she has a cunt doesn't mean she is a cunt. And it does mean that people are likely to judge her by different standards
@ Dok You said "She's not a bad person, she's just arrogant and can't hide it." You see her as arrogant and I see her as competent and self confident. Be honest, if she had balls instead of tits would you really think she was "arrogant". Put your hand on your heart and after mature consideration give me an honest answer, or not.
And for what its worth I was NOT actually trying to accuse you of being "a sexist" any more than LMNO was.
Hillary DID win the popular vote, so she was definitely not the most hated candidate we've ever had.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 15, 2018, 11:03:19 AM
You cannot beat a populist with slogans and platitutes. "Stronger together" is not a fucking policy statement. Her damage control was just fine, but that's not enough. In short, she didn't win because she didn't run.
Wow. True.
I don't think of Trump as a populist - the only thing he has in common with Huey Long is the dictator stuff - he's a fake populist, but yeah. Same result, election-wise.
BTW, the ghost of Huey Long is looking real good right now. If it ran, I'd vote for it - on the condition that it ran as a democrat.
QuoteTHAT BEING SAID, I am a little fucking sick and tired of being accused semi-annually of being a sexist, a libertarian, a racist, and/or a Nazi as the very first fucking option.
Twas ever thus.
I haven't even been here much in recent years, but it's like coming back to a soap you haven't watched in X number of years and finding the same plot lines. Jill is fucking around on John Abbot. Kay Chancellor is feuding with Jill. Victor Newman is presumed dead, only he isn't, really. Nikki wants Victor back. Etc.
Quote
To a few others:
Quote
Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person.
She's not a bad person, she's just arrogant and can't hide it.
True. She's not inherently evil, or willfully ignorant.
We wouldn't have kids in concentration camp dog kennels if she was running the show.
Quote from: MMIX on June 15, 2018, 06:33:34 PM
@Stella, you said
"Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person." You're absolutely right but it is also true that just because she has a cunt doesn't mean she is a cunt. And it does mean that people are likely to judge her by different standards
Translation: "Nobody likes her because she's a woman. Up the patriarchy, etc."
Didn't we just elect a Black president for two terms? Remember the euphoria in 2008, like we DID something?
My own thoughts are by no means unique. There are a LOT of people out there who would be tickled to have a president who is a woman.
Yes, it makes a difference to the Trump voters, but they're a lost cause, anyway. The rest of us would be happy with a woman.
Shit, speaking for myself, I'd be happy with a drag queen, if she had a decent platform. Imagine how awesome THAT would be.
A FAT drag queen, like Divine. I'd be over the moon. The teabilly butthurt would be BEAUTEOUS.
I just don't like Hillary. I'd have felt better about everything if Elizabeth Warren had been running.
I still voted Hillary, as I said before.
Quote from: MMIX on June 15, 2018, 06:33:34 PM
@ Dok You said "She's not a bad person, she's just arrogant and can't hide it." You see her as arrogant and I see her as competent and self confident. Be honest, if she had balls instead of tits would you really think she was "arrogant". Put your hand on your heart and after mature consideration give me an honest answer, or not.
Okay. hand on heart, "Never speak to me again."
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 15, 2018, 09:29:18 PM
I haven't even been here much in recent years, but it's like coming back to a soap you haven't watched in X number of years and finding the same plot lines. Jill is fucking around on John Abbot. Kay Chancellor is feuding with Jill. Victor Newman is presumed dead, only he isn't, really. Nikki wants Victor back. Etc.
You make an excellent point.
I was angry yesterday. When I woke up today after that weird night shift, I wasn't angry. I'm just done with people who insist that my words say something other than what they said or attribute the worst possible motives to me in an effort to scratch some weird tumblr itch.
You can type all you like, you'll get the exact same thing back, because the person involved isn't listening to you. I could say, for example, that I called Kerry a "flawed candidate" back in 2004, because he couldn't stay on topic under the best of circumstances, and MMIX would still come back around to the sexist thing. She has a narrative in her head and by God, you're going to fit into it no matter what you were actually saying.
And the personal insults aside, I am not being dehumanized by anyone. Anyone at all.
It turns out that Rex was correct. I retract my "fuck you" from LMNO.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 15, 2018, 10:01:45 PM
She has a narrative in her head and by God, you're going to fit into it no matter what you were actually saying.
It's not rational to attribute everything to sexism.
It's like saying George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin because of sexism.
I'm sure that if you scratched the surface of Zimmerman, you'd find a sexist fuck.
But that's not what was at play.
Quote from: Pergamos on June 15, 2018, 08:03:10 PM
Hillary DID win the popular vote, so she was definitely not the most hated candidate we've ever had.
So why do so many people still say that she was? and I'm not just talking about agent orange and his white tornado
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 15, 2018, 09:48:16 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 15, 2018, 06:33:34 PM
@Stella, you said
"Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person." You're absolutely right but it is also true that just because she has a cunt doesn't mean she is a cunt. And it does mean that people are likely to judge her by different standards
Translation: "Nobody likes her because she's a woman. Up the patriarchy, etc."
Didn't we just elect a Black president for two terms? Remember the euphoria in 2008, like we DID something?
My own thoughts are by no means unique. There are a LOT of people out there who would be tickled to have a president who is a woman.
Yes, it makes a difference to the Trump voters, but they're a lost cause, anyway. The rest of us would be happy with a woman.
Shit, speaking for myself, I'd be happy with a drag queen, if she had a decent platform. Imagine how awesome THAT would be.
A FAT drag queen, like Divine. I'd be over the moon. The teabilly butthurt would be BEAUTEOUS.
I just don't like Hillary. I'd have felt better about everything if Elizabeth Warren had been running.
I still voted Hillary, as I said before.
I've been prophesying pretty much exactly this since Trump won the election.
For the last few presidents, we have been electing more and more the candidate that will piss of
the other side. Eventually the pendulum will swing the other way (probably after Trump's second term) and the left will finally put their
Revenge Presidenttm in office.
I call him/her/them "President Gaytrans McAnchorbaby". He/she/they will declare the NRA a terrorist organization, make all the Slaves and Indigenous Americans who were slaughtered in the "First American Genocide" legally recognized U.S. Veterans (Confederate soldiers are, after all, so why the fuck not), create an official alternative to the "Pledge of Allegiance" called the "Pledge of Apology", make Ramadan a National U.S. Holiday, and...
I dunno, something else about guns and/or Bibles, and/or Islam or something.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 15, 2018, 10:30:13 PM
It turns out that Rex was correct. I retract my "fuck you" from LMNO.
I appreciate that. To be honest, I don't log on here on weekends very often, so I was surprised how big this threadgot. I wasn't that surprised when some people immediately started proving me right by, rather than Dok's analysis of the HRC campaign's flaws, went all in on calling her a cunt.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 09:48:01 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 14, 2018, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 14, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
Some would say that her main flaw was having a vagina.
From my pov that is essentially the whole problem, glad that it is not just my ridiculous feminist sensitivity leading me to irrational and hysterical conclusions..
From my point of view, you can kiss my ass until the scabs all fall off.
Fuck both of you.
I'm out.
I still stick by what I said but I have just reread the thread right through and I feel obliged to offer a sincere apology to Roger for the way I barged in out of left field and stomped on his thread. With the benefit of hindsight [20:20 yadda yadda] I really should have taken my query - which is something I am sincerely interested in - to a new thread.
Apologies MMIX
Quote from: MMIX on June 16, 2018, 09:45:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 09:48:01 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 14, 2018, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 14, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
Some would say that her main flaw was having a vagina.
From my pov that is essentially the whole problem, glad that it is not just my ridiculous feminist sensitivity leading me to irrational and hysterical conclusions..
From my point of view, you can kiss my ass until the scabs all fall off.
Fuck both of you.
I'm out.
I still stick by what I said but I have just reread the thread right through and I feel obliged to offer a sincere apology to Roger for the way I barged in out of left field and stomped on his thread. With the benefit of hindsight [20:20 yadda yadda] I really should have taken my query - which is something I am sincerely interested in - to a new thread.
Apologies MMIX
Okay, consider it forgotten. I'd just prefer to be asked what I meant by a phrase like that, is all.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 17, 2018, 04:47:42 AM
Quote from: MMIX on June 16, 2018, 09:45:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 14, 2018, 09:48:01 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 14, 2018, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 14, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
Some would say that her main flaw was having a vagina.
From my pov that is essentially the whole problem, glad that it is not just my ridiculous feminist sensitivity leading me to irrational and hysterical conclusions..
From my point of view, you can kiss my ass until the scabs all fall off.
Fuck both of you.
I'm out.
I still stick by what I said but I have just reread the thread right through and I feel obliged to offer a sincere apology to Roger for the way I barged in out of left field and stomped on his thread. With the benefit of hindsight [20:20 yadda yadda] I really should have taken my query - which is something I am sincerely interested in - to a new thread.
Apologies MMIX
Okay, consider it forgotten. I'd just prefer to be asked what I meant by a phrase like that, is all.
Yeah, I get that, I think we all need that level of respect :oops: and thanks
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 15, 2018, 12:14:26 AM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
WTF?
It was Roger who advised in 2016 to "hold your nose and vote for Clinton".
Which I did. And I hate that "must be brought to heel", Democrat-in-name-only cunt. I lived through eight years of Billary, during which time my kids were little and I was on welfare because that was the only way to stay home, and they killed that. So who's watching the kids? I won't go into that here. Suffice to say that the trauma and bullshit outlasted the Clinton administration.
But hey, y'know what? We're used to that kind of shit. As Roger said, "We lived through it. We might not live through this."
And I went forth, and took a couple of shots of gin, and held my nose and voted for Hillary.
That is NOT what I would call "splitting the left". Voting for a bitch you hate and would relish knocking her teeth into the back of her throat in order to present a united front against the fucking nazis is just the opposite.
Kudos to 2016 Roger, I guess. That isn't some kind of general license to shit down progressive's throats right now. That's just more of the same petty, infighting garbage that got us a Republican controlled Congress.
As long as leftists only vote in presidential elections and spend the rest of the time shitting on grassroots efforts, we're going to continue to enable literal fascists to further entrench themselves in power.
This thread is about alienating and demoralizing a big chunk of the Left while complaining about infighting. It's the height of hypocrisy and small-minded spite.
Quote from: N E T on June 22, 2018, 11:46:42 PM
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 15, 2018, 12:14:26 AM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
WTF?
It was Roger who advised in 2016 to "hold your nose and vote for Clinton".
Which I did. And I hate that "must be brought to heel", Democrat-in-name-only cunt. I lived through eight years of Billary, during which time my kids were little and I was on welfare because that was the only way to stay home, and they killed that. So who's watching the kids? I won't go into that here. Suffice to say that the trauma and bullshit outlasted the Clinton administration.
But hey, y'know what? We're used to that kind of shit. As Roger said, "We lived through it. We might not live through this."
And I went forth, and took a couple of shots of gin, and held my nose and voted for Hillary.
That is NOT what I would call "splitting the left". Voting for a bitch you hate and would relish knocking her teeth into the back of her throat in order to present a united front against the fucking nazis is just the opposite.
Kudos to 2016 Roger, I guess. That isn't some kind of general license to shit down progressive's throats right now. That's just more of the same petty, infighting garbage that got us a Republican controlled Congress.
As long as leftists only vote in presidential elections and spend the rest of the time shitting on grassroots efforts, we're going to continue to enable literal fascists to further entrench themselves in power.
This thread is about alienating and demoralizing a big chunk of the Left while complaining about infighting. It's the height of hypocrisy and small-minded spite.
Well, yes. My motives are bad. What can I say? I'm a criminal.
Quote from: Hoopla on June 14, 2018, 10:32:24 PM
It didn't look to me like LMNO was criticizing you with that vagina comment, Dok.
And forgive me for being Canadian but I think both you and NET have decent points here. If we could forgo from the usual PD.com bloodletting, this could be a very informative and educational discussion. I read an article today about Doug Ford's election which posited that people who don't follow politics closely get spooked easily by the recent speed of change, and reach out to people like Ford and like Trump as a way of holding on to what they know.
And these are largely whities, obviously. And what they want to hold on to is their own dominance in the hierarchy, since that's the only way they've ever known it.
I want to be clear: I think that is wrong.
But it was the first time it was explained to me in a way that made me understand where these people were coming from (obviously I have my own prejudices that I am working to overcome, which gives me a little insight into their view) and how Ford and Trump used these people.
The accusations Dok founded this thread on are not helping our cause much. They are founded accusations a lot of the time, but righteous indignation does not win battles by itself. Strategy does. Stepping away from the rhetoric to be a little objective about how we present ourselves could go a long long way.
I hope this is not interpreted as "stay in your place and be polite", as that is certainly not my intention.
And if I am flat out wrong, I am willing to learn why.
I appreciate you.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 22, 2018, 11:51:51 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 22, 2018, 11:46:42 PM
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 15, 2018, 12:14:26 AM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Quote from: PoFP on June 05, 2018, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: N E T on June 05, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*
"Why does the left hate itself so much?"
I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.
Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?
Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.
"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.
I'm advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.
It's critically important to point out these problems, but that's really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.
I've observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.
Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
WTF?
It was Roger who advised in 2016 to "hold your nose and vote for Clinton".
Which I did. And I hate that "must be brought to heel", Democrat-in-name-only cunt. I lived through eight years of Billary, during which time my kids were little and I was on welfare because that was the only way to stay home, and they killed that. So who's watching the kids? I won't go into that here. Suffice to say that the trauma and bullshit outlasted the Clinton administration.
But hey, y'know what? We're used to that kind of shit. As Roger said, "We lived through it. We might not live through this."
And I went forth, and took a couple of shots of gin, and held my nose and voted for Hillary.
That is NOT what I would call "splitting the left". Voting for a bitch you hate and would relish knocking her teeth into the back of her throat in order to present a united front against the fucking nazis is just the opposite.
Kudos to 2016 Roger, I guess. That isn't some kind of general license to shit down progressive's throats right now. That's just more of the same petty, infighting garbage that got us a Republican controlled Congress.
As long as leftists only vote in presidential elections and spend the rest of the time shitting on grassroots efforts, we're going to continue to enable literal fascists to further entrench themselves in power.
This thread is about alienating and demoralizing a big chunk of the Left while complaining about infighting. It's the height of hypocrisy and small-minded spite.
Well, yes. My motives are bad. What can I say? I'm a criminal.
Calling for the death of all humans, but especially mine and progressives really clears up your MO....
Oh wait, you recommended I commit suicide. That's different, considering suicide rates are going up and the damage you can do with comments like that can't ever really be known. Maybe I am a piece of shit that the world would probably be better off without, and to be completely honest your little joke brought up a very painful part of my life and a struggle I'll probably take to my grave.
Perhaps you helped push a demoralized progressive lurker to end their life, but who knows? I suppose it's unlikely, and even if someone did off themselves, I can't find a single reason to think you'd even bat an eye.
I still can't tell, was Melania wearing your jacket at the child internment camps or not?
Quote from: N E T on June 23, 2018, 12:27:19 AM
Calling for the death of all humans, but especially mine and progressives really clears up your MO....
Oh wait, you recommended I commit suicide. That's different, considering suicide rates are going up and the damage you can do with comments like that can't ever really be known. Maybe I am a piece of shit that the world would probably be better off without, and to be completely honest your little joke brought up a very painful part of my life and a struggle I'll probably take to my grave.
Perhaps you helped push a demoralized progressive lurker to end their life, but who knows? I suppose it's unlikely, and even if someone did off themselves, I can't find a single reason to think you'd even bat an eye.
I still can't tell, was Melania wearing your jacket at the child internment camps or not?
Well, this can all be explained:
I don't like you. Not because you are a pompous windbag still trying to live the glory days of Occupy, and not because you have this weird fixation on anyone who writes anything anywhere, but because you are a primate, and I have really come to despise primates.
Let me clue you in:
1. Big thieves hang little thieves.
2. A "friend" is someone who does not yet have sufficient incentive to fuck you over.
3. Kill one lousy primate and you go to prison forever. Kill a million primates and ride to the opera in a limo.
Your basic problem is that you have connected your ego to saving people who are perfectly happy being doomed. It doesn't matter what side of the aisle they're on, it doesn't matter if they're defending kiddie concentration camps or protesting The Man between bizarre open forum-style ego fests, they don't want to be saved. YOU don't want to be saved. And looking at the ice caps and the gulf stream, that's largely a self-correcting problem.
No fucking wonder you are or were suicidal. Your programming is FUCKED. You should demand a refund.
I thought that was your jacket.
Quote from: N E T on June 23, 2018, 01:16:01 AM
I thought that was your jacket.
No, because I DO care. Not caring would mean I don't care what happens to humans. I care about that a great deal, only not in a positive sense.
I can explain this rationally, if you're interested.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 23, 2018, 01:17:48 AM
Quote from: N E T on June 23, 2018, 01:16:01 AM
I thought that was your jacket.
No, because I DO care. Not caring would mean I don't care what happens to humans. I care about that a great deal, only not in a positive sense.
I can explain this rationally, if you're interested.
I'm interested.
Quote from: N E T on June 24, 2018, 10:34:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 23, 2018, 01:17:48 AM
Quote from: N E T on June 23, 2018, 01:16:01 AM
I thought that was your jacket.
No, because I DO care. Not caring would mean I don't care what happens to humans. I care about that a great deal, only not in a positive sense.
I can explain this rationally, if you're interested.
I'm interested.
Okay, a little backstory:
When I was a kid, I was misdiagnosed with ADHD, which was probably actually mild/moderate autism. I'm not a neurologist, so I can't tell you if that's strictly accurate, but I DO know that as an adult, a neurologist did tell me that I was never ADHD. Anyway, I didn't get along with too many people. In short, I was a bit of a monster, and by my teens, I was only really interested in fucking, getting fucked up, and fucking people up.
Then I went off and joined the army, saw the world, and realized that I was not a very good monster, when stacked up against the market as a whole. Then some other shit happened that I've talked about, then the whole 1991-1993 thing went down, and I realized that being a fairly small monster was good enough for my market share.
At some point, I left the military and got into some shady business involving a small airline and at about that time, I tripped across PD. Somewhere in late 2002. I was kind of gobsmacked, and I met some people that I thought were actually worth knowing. Meanwhile, shady business continued.
For some strange fucking reason, at about that time I felt a need to have people like me. I started trying - mostly unsuccessfully - to be a likeable person. This sorry state of affairs went up and down over the next 13 years or so. I identified with the left, the progressives, and the social justice crowd, because they were at least talking sense. By this point, I had more or less buried my monster under a pile of more or less manufactured human, and settled down to a more respectable, corporate sort of shady business.
Then 2015 happened. The entire thing, not just the Nigel business. The social justice crowd settled in for a couple of years of virtue-signalling itself out of any meaningful existence, the liberals had had enough of the progressives, and the progressives
really hated the liberals. All this time, the right licked its lips and smiled. As for me, I tried twice as hard to talk people around to some kind of common ground, and in the end I was labeled a racist, a Nazi of some kind, and a LIBERTARIAN.
:lulz:
It's really hard to overstate how much I hate all of you, really, with maybe a half-dozen exceptions (identifiable as "the ones I'm still speaking to in a pleasant tone of voice")...All but one of whom have one thing in common:
They aren't buying what you crusaders have to sell. The one that does buy in is LMNO, and the only reason I don't throw him in the llama pit like the rest of you culture heroes is that he's legit. He really believes, and isn't in this as a massive ego stroke.
Anyway, I'm looking around at all you've
accomplished. We have a giant used teabag as a president, there are concentration camps again, and Nazis are walking all over the place. Poor & middle class folks have less purchasing power and no security, and the rich cunts have all but 10% of the bananas, and they'll have half of that 10% by October of this year.
Nothing any of you have done has worked, unless by "worked" you mean "Impressed the trustafarian girls at Coachella." I don't know if it's because the ideas themselves are flawed, or because too many people are busy screeching how much THEY have accomplished, unlike those OTHER motherfuckers over THERE, but it all boils down to the same thing in the end:
You failed.
As for me, sometime around the beginning of 2016, I realized why I was so desperately unhappy. It wasn't just the tidal wave of absolutely useless pricks screaming at me that my ideology was unsound, or even the stark realization that a "friend" is a friend until it's time for you to go under the bus...it's that I am not by nature a good person, and I have spent way too many years of my life trying to be something I'm not. I have re-embraced my inner dirtbag, and I am happy for the first time in 16 years.
So here we are today. You're telling me that you've DOING things and ACCOMPLISHING things, and I'm just not seeing it; more to the point, I don't
care. Things are going to get a whole lot worse than they are now, very quickly, and I hope you and everyone like you gets caught in the gears and ground into hamburger.
It's also worth mentioning that the only politician I don't hate is Maxine Waters.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rep-waters-draws-criticism-for-saying-trump-officials-should-be-harassed-in-public/ar-AAz9x2V?ocid=spartanntp
It's funny watching Pelosi and Booker and Van Hollen try to throw her under the bus for being mean to Nazis. Good luck with that, asshats, Maxine Waters isn't here to take any of your shit.
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 16, 2018, 07:31:20 AM
For the last few presidents, we have been electing more and more the candidate that will piss of the other side.
Which presidents did you have in mind?
Posting here for relevance.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/where-is-barack-obama/ar-AAz7gfD?ocid=spartanntp
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 25, 2018, 07:57:21 PM
It's also worth mentioning that the only politician I don't hate is Maxine Waters.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rep-waters-draws-criticism-for-saying-trump-officials-should-be-harassed-in-public/ar-AAz9x2V?ocid=spartanntp
It's funny watching Pelosi and Booker and Van Hollen try to throw her under the bus for being mean to Nazis. Good luck with that, asshats, Maxine Waters isn't here to take any of your shit.
Update: Watching Sarah Huckabee Sanders try to chide Maxine Waters is like watching an earthworm try to bully a robin.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/sarah-sanders-decries-calls-for-harassment-citing-maxine-waters-restaurant-episode/ar-AAz9Itj?ocid=spartandhp
From the link:
Quote"In the crucial months ahead, we must strive to make America beautiful again, Pelosi, D-Calif., wrote on Twitter. "Trump's daily lack of civility has provoked responses that are predictable but unacceptable. As we go forward, we must conduct elections in a way that achieves unity from sea to shining sea."
Waters' remarks also were rebuked by Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer, who said Monday afternoon that "no one should call for the harassment of political opponents, that's not right, that's not American."
No, Shumer, that's American as FUCK.
Okay, so now I'm back to hating the dems just as much as the progressives. :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 25, 2018, 09:50:59 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 16, 2018, 07:31:20 AM
For the last few presidents, we have been electing more and more the candidate that will piss of the other side.
Which presidents did you have in mind?
Probably started with Clinton or Bush 2, with Clinton being a fairly normal reaction to 12 years of Republican presidents, then Bush 2 was some god awful shit for 8 years and probably the first true Revenge President (in recent times) then Barack (Hussein!!!) Obama was backlash from Bush, and now with Trump it just seems to be more about trolling than governing.
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 26, 2018, 11:20:19 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 25, 2018, 09:50:59 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 16, 2018, 07:31:20 AM
For the last few presidents, we have been electing more and more the candidate that will piss of the other side.
Which presidents did you have in mind?
Probably started with Clinton or Bush 2, with Clinton being a fairly normal reaction to 12 years of Republican presidents, then Bush 2 was some god awful shit for 8 years and probably the first true Revenge President (in recent times) then Barack (Hussein!!!) Obama was backlash from Bush, and now with Trump it just seems to be more about trolling than governing.
Obama was a different type of beast altogether.
The election of Obama in 2008 was a moment when anything seemed possible. Then, of course, the America set in.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 26, 2018, 04:43:51 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 26, 2018, 11:20:19 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 25, 2018, 09:50:59 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 16, 2018, 07:31:20 AM
For the last few presidents, we have been electing more and more the candidate that will piss of the other side.
Which presidents did you have in mind?
Probably started with Clinton or Bush 2, with Clinton being a fairly normal reaction to 12 years of Republican presidents, then Bush 2 was some god awful shit for 8 years and probably the first true Revenge President (in recent times) then Barack (Hussein!!!) Obama was backlash from Bush, and now with Trump it just seems to be more about trolling than governing.
Obama was a different type of beast altogether.
You don't think
Because they'll hate him" was one of his major selling points?
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 26, 2018, 08:11:57 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 26, 2018, 04:43:51 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 26, 2018, 11:20:19 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 25, 2018, 09:50:59 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 16, 2018, 07:31:20 AM
For the last few presidents, we have been electing more and more the candidate that will piss of the other side.
Which presidents did you have in mind?
Probably started with Clinton or Bush 2, with Clinton being a fairly normal reaction to 12 years of Republican presidents, then Bush 2 was some god awful shit for 8 years and probably the first true Revenge President (in recent times) then Barack (Hussein!!!) Obama was backlash from Bush, and now with Trump it just seems to be more about trolling than governing.
Obama was a different type of beast altogether.
You don't think Because they'll hate him" was one of his major selling points?
No, not really. I mostly think that was just an added bonus.
Soo... not to fan flames or nothing, but this happened.
https://thinkprogress.org/crowley-loses-primary-b7f702972f1c/
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 27, 2018, 06:50:05 AM
Soo... not to fan flames or nothing, but this happened.
https://thinkprogress.org/crowley-loses-primary-b7f702972f1c/
This is interesting, especially because the seat usually runs 70% Democrat, and the GOP nominee seems to have little to no chance to win, no matter who his opponent is; so essentially, last night's election was the deciding one (although, these days you never know since the voter can be
stupid fickle).
But anyway,
this is the way I've always thought it should go. In the same way I always mock the Green party and the Libertarian party for only putting up candidates for the presidency and/or other more visible offices, shifting the Overton window starts at the bottom in, say, a congressional seat (though even that's a bit more visibility than I was expecting at first). It also helps voter turnout in the midterms, since it underscores
why it's important to vote in the off-years.
Update: https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/watch-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-refuses-take-cnn-anchors-bait-trash-democrats/
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 27, 2018, 06:50:05 AM
Soo... not to fan flames or nothing, but this happened.
https://thinkprogress.org/crowley-loses-primary-b7f702972f1c/
Good. This is what is SUPPOSED to happen.
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 27, 2018, 04:46:37 PM
Update: https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/watch-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-refuses-take-cnn-anchors-bait-trash-democrats/
I love her. This is EXACTLY what you do. You fight to win, and you keep your eye on the prize.
She's not pandering to the progressives, she's stating her intent to represent them. The berners will of course turn on her at some point, because bernie bros can't NOT turn on someone who won't piss away the election talking trash about the rest of the left.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 27, 2018, 06:09:11 PM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 27, 2018, 04:46:37 PM
Update: https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/watch-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-refuses-take-cnn-anchors-bait-trash-democrats/
I love her. This is EXACTLY what you do. You fight to win, and you keep your eye on the prize.
She's not pandering to the progressives, she's stating her intent to represent them. The berners will of course turn on her at some point, because bernie bros can't NOT turn on someone who won't piss away the election talking trash about the rest of the left.
Whatever happened to writing off progressives, eh?
:lulz:
Quote from: N E T on July 01, 2018, 11:08:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 27, 2018, 06:09:11 PM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 27, 2018, 04:46:37 PM
Update: https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/watch-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-refuses-take-cnn-anchors-bait-trash-democrats/
I love her. This is EXACTLY what you do. You fight to win, and you keep your eye on the prize.
She's not pandering to the progressives, she's stating her intent to represent them. The berners will of course turn on her at some point, because bernie bros can't NOT turn on someone who won't piss away the election talking trash about the rest of the left.
Whatever happened to writing off progressives, eh?
:lulz:
When I say "progressives" I am of course talking about bernie bro hipsters.
It's not just progressives: The moderate Democratic incumbent who lost to Ocasio-Ortez has decided not to take his name off the general election ballot.
Quote from: LMNO on July 12, 2018, 09:36:08 PM
It's not just progressives: The moderate Democratic incumbent who lost to Ocasio-Ortez has decided not to take his name off the general election ballot.
From what I gather, he
can't. He claims he is not running, but that unless he dies, is convicted of a few specific crimes, or is elected to a different position, the petition that got him on the ballot keeps him on the ballot.
I don't know if that's true or not.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 12, 2018, 10:00:23 PM
Quote from: LMNO on July 12, 2018, 09:36:08 PM
It's not just progressives: The moderate Democratic incumbent who lost to Ocasio-Ortez has decided not to take his name off the general election ballot.
From what I gather, he can't. He claims he is not running, but that unless he dies, is convicted of a few specific crimes, or is elected to a different position, the petition that got him on the ballot keeps him on the ballot.
I don't know if that's true or not.
The party whose ballot he is on have released a statement saying they wanted to have Ocasio-Ortez on the ballot, but because of some arcane election law, to do so the incumbent has to change his address to somewhere out of state...which given his family live out of state, should not pose a major problem.
Quote from: Cain on July 12, 2018, 10:40:12 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 12, 2018, 10:00:23 PM
Quote from: LMNO on July 12, 2018, 09:36:08 PM
It's not just progressives: The moderate Democratic incumbent who lost to Ocasio-Ortez has decided not to take his name off the general election ballot.
From what I gather, he can't. He claims he is not running, but that unless he dies, is convicted of a few specific crimes, or is elected to a different position, the petition that got him on the ballot keeps him on the ballot.
I don't know if that's true or not.
The party whose ballot he is on have released a statement saying they wanted to have Ocasio-Ortez on the ballot, but because of some arcane election law, to do so the incumbent has to change his address to somewhere out of state...which given his family live out of state, should not pose a major problem.
So this is sort of a passive-aggressive treason. How depressingly 21st century.
All of this being said, don't for one moment think I'm not going to screech laughter at the butthurt bernie bros.
So, how's that "We'll survive four years of Trump and it will teach people to vote for Bernie" thing coming along?
I like Ocasio, but after the Bernie Bros in 2016, this will never not be funny.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/lieberman-slams-ocasio-cortez-urges-voters-to-pick-joe-crowley/ar-AAAeo8c?ocid=spartanntp
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 18, 2018, 04:04:09 AM
So, how's that "We'll survive four years of Trump and it will teach people to vote for Bernie" thing coming along?
As much as I wanted Bernie to win, I voted for Hillary. I think if you seriously tried to engage with Bernie bros who didn't vote, you'd hear hella regret.
But you're looking for justification to abuse people as usual, not a way forward, that's pretty clear.
Quote from: N E T on July 21, 2018, 07:04:48 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 18, 2018, 04:04:09 AM
So, how's that "We'll survive four years of Trump and it will teach people to vote for Bernie" thing coming along?
As much as I wanted Bernie to win, I voted for Hillary. I think if you seriously tried to engage with Bernie bros who didn't vote, you'd hear hella regret.
But you're looking for justification to abuse people as usual, not a way forward, that's pretty clear.
:lol:
Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.
so while we're writing off groups of liberals, can we also write off anyone who is fully aware that the campaign against James Gunn was orchestrated by the Alt-right, but still decries him and anyone who defends him, because apparently punishing someone for cringy tweets we already knew about ten years ago is somehow higher priority than NOT playing into the hands of Nazis?
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on August 13, 2018, 10:05:32 PM
so while we're writing off groups of liberals, can we also write off anyone who is fully aware that the campaign against James Gunn was orchestrated by the Alt-right, but still decries him and anyone who defends him, because apparently punishing someone for cringy tweets we already knew about ten years ago is somehow higher priority than NOT playing into the hands of Nazis?
Who is James Gunn and why should I care? I mean, because looking at it, he's a filmmaker who decided that rape/pedo jokes on twitter was a good idea.
Is he running for office?
He made offensive jokes back in 2011, as was fashionable at the time, and apologized for it.
People now decided to be outraged over these, as is the fashion at this time.
Superhero films are puerile derivative trash, he broke the trend, once, with guardians of the galaxy and the rest of Disney's films started to copy that films formula, so much so that there was nothing creative left for him to do for the sequel, its for the best that they wont make a third.
He has been fired from Disney so hopefully he can go back to contributing to cinema as an artistic medium instead of hastening demise, or transformation into a factory of regurgitated ideas, each one tweaked just the slightest amount to pretend there is anything but a hollow shell to them.
And yes, the alt right set him up, and the progressives played their part in the outrage machine and everyone involved is culpable in the most boring tedious antidrama cycle that they have settled into.
Quote from: Faust on August 13, 2018, 10:44:37 PM
And yes, the alt right set him up, and the progressives played their part in the outrage machine and everyone involved is culpable in the most boring tedious antidrama cycle that they have settled into.
This all reminds me of a certain senator.
Al Franken, to be precise. It was a vortex of failure and shame for everyone involved.
Mostly on account of how the Nazis know how to make us devour our own.
Quote from: Faust on August 13, 2018, 10:42:16 PM
Superhero films are puerile derivative trash,
Also, this should be engraved in Christopher Nolan's forehead.
What pisses me off more than Gunn being fired in particular is the notion that this is the test run for a never-ending campaign of hitjobs like this.
And what pisses me off even more than that is that nobody wants to own up to the fact that this was always a flaw of call-out culture, and that while trying rapists and abusers in the court of public opinion is all well and good for people who otherwise would be untouchable, but can we all agree that shouldn't be the end goal? Like, isn't it time we started, y'know, fixing the legal system so victims can actually get justice? No? Just keep dragging celebrities cuz it makes us feel good? Well alright then.
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on August 14, 2018, 05:25:36 AM
What pisses me off more than Gunn being fired in particular is the notion that this is the test run for a never-ending campaign of hitjobs like this.
And what pisses me off even more than that is that nobody wants to own up to the fact that this was always a flaw of call-out culture, and that while trying rapists and abusers in the court of public opinion is all well and good for people who otherwise would be untouchable, but can we all agree that shouldn't be the end goal? Like, isn't it time we started, y'know, fixing the legal system so victims can actually get justice? No? Just keep dragging celebrities cuz it makes us feel good? Well alright then.
That's not a flaw of call-out culture, it is the logical end result of call-out culture. You may remember what went on here a couple of years ago. That was basically a working model of what happened in the "real" world. It was never, ever about justice. It was about who the king-shit caller-outer was. Who was the most morally pure tumblrista.
It took quite some time for me to stop being bitter about that.
I've also noticed recently that there is a slice of the progressive left who don't seem to be willing to accept when someone has done their time. Does the legal system mean anything anymore? How does a society rebuild something like a legal system? Is that idea as infeasible as the libertarians who want to rebuild the government?
Quote from: Hoopla on August 17, 2018, 06:23:03 PM
I’ve also noticed recently that there is a slice of the progressive left who don'’t seem to be willing to accept when someone has done their time. Does the legal system mean anything anymore? How does a society rebuild something like a legal system? Is that idea as infeasible as the libertarians who want to rebuild the government?
Are you referring to the "instant death penalty for pedophiles/no civil rights for rapists" folk?
Trial by social media will never lead to real change, abandoning the rule of law is why the progressives are so weak and why trump will have two terms. It invalidates their position. And the worst part is it is because the targets are tantalizingly evil. Wienstien gets fired as part of #MeToo and the studios use the whole thing as a power shift, it does not shift to women, but to the other evil old men who sit in opposition to Wienstien.
As to helping women in these situations, the rape culture will go underground for a year or two and resurface with less vulnerability then it had before.
Without prosecutions and the flow, the media circus just ends up making the whole thing feel less authentic, it actively hinders changes to the wide social consciousness.
And don't for a moment think I support Weinstien or their ilk, thats the worst part, the more obviously evil the target the more important they get ruined through the courts, through official channels.
Quote from: Hoopla on August 17, 2018, 06:23:03 PM
I've also noticed recently that there is a slice of the progressive left who don't seem to be willing to accept when someone has done their time. Does the legal system mean anything anymore? How does a society rebuild something like a legal system? Is that idea as infeasible as the libertarians who want to rebuild the government?
I think it stems from a deep distrust of the legal system's ability to redress certain grievances.
Our society in general has a really hard time digesting the concept of someone having done their time, or having repaid their debt to society. What crimes exactly someone is most concerned about varies, but lots of people feel the need to twist the knife on anyone who's ever fucked up. Being a felon in the USA is practically second-class citizen status, no matter how much you're punished.
OTOH, the only voices I've heard (lol perception bias) calling most strongly for justice reform and rehabilitation
are progressive voices. The ways in which the USA's penal system in particular is perverted by private interests and profit are especially strong rallying points.
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on August 18, 2018, 03:19:04 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 17, 2018, 06:23:03 PM
I've also noticed recently that there is a slice of the progressive left who don't seem to be willing to accept when someone has done their time. Does the legal system mean anything anymore? How does a society rebuild something like a legal system? Is that idea as infeasible as the libertarians who want to rebuild the government?
I think it stems from a deep distrust of the legal system's ability to redress certain grievances.
Our society in general has a really hard time digesting the concept of someone having done their time, or having repaid their debt to society. What crimes exactly someone is most concerned about varies, but lots of people feel the need to twist the knife on anyone who's ever fucked up. Being a felon in the USA is practically second-class citizen status, no matter how much you're punished.
OTOH, the only voices I've heard (lol perception bias) calling most strongly for justice reform and rehabilitation are progressive voices. The ways in which the USA's penal system in particular is perverted by private interests and profit are especially strong rallying points.
Our legal system is premised on exacting by vengance on those who we perceive as having done wrong, which really makes it hard to forgive those who have gone through the system and reaccept them into society. Prison isn't about making you a better person or working to overcome the circumstances that encouraged or allowed for the behavior that landed you there, and it certainly isn't about finding reconciliation between the involved parties. Sure, we are doing better now than we used to, implementing some education and training programs in prison, and some crazy places even help people returning to society find jobs and housing, which it turns out massively reduces recidivism. We have made some improvements, but the basic premise of our prison system (and the law enforcement and court systems that funnel people there) is to punch back at people we think have hurt us, and lock them away so we don't have to think about them.
Just because you kick someone in the shins doesn't mean you've forgiven them for kicking you first. The fact that so many would be criminals can just ignore this whole system if they are sufficiently rich/white/male/et cetera makes it that much harder to have any faith that prison can allow for true reintegration.
I think you're 75% correct. The missing 25% is the profit motive from privatized prisons and cheap prison labor.
Text of the 13th Amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
This was the amendment that prohibited the practice of slavery in the United States after the Civil War. Notice the bolded exception, and consider who the United States tends to put in prison a LOT more than everyone else.
Taken from that angle, it starts to make much more sense as to why thing are the way they are. Criminal justice in the United States is deeply warped by profit motive (and, y'know, racism). It meshes nicely with "Get Tough On Crime" and "Zero Tolerance" attitudes: indulge people's gut-level desire to punish wrongdoers and spend effort on scooping people up to exploit, rather than spending effort on improving standards of living or community health.
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on August 18, 2018, 03:24:16 PM
I think you're 75% correct. The missing 25% is the profit motive from privatized prisons and cheap prison labor.
Text of the 13th Amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
This was the amendment that prohibited the practice of slavery in the United States after the Civil War. Notice the bolded exception, and consider who the United States tends to put in prison a LOT more than everyone else.
Taken from that angle, it starts to make much more sense as to why thing are the way they are. Criminal justice in the United States is deeply warped by profit motive (and, y'know, racism). It meshes nicely with "Get Tough On Crime" and "Zero Tolerance" attitudes: indulge people's gut-level desire to punish wrongdoers and spend effort on scooping people up to exploit, rather than spending effort on improving standards of living or community health.
Of course profit has something to do with it, this is 'Murica after all. Tied with that is enforcing and reinforcing current power structures. The police are there to ensure that the rules those at the top want are followed by those at the bottom. Nixon took this to another level by creating the never ending war on drugs as a way to disenfranchise the predominantly democratic voting minorities who were using the substances most heavily targeted by his administration. Racism with a purpose!
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on August 18, 2018, 03:24:16 PM
I think you're 75% correct. The missing 25% is the profit motive from privatized prisons and cheap prison labor.
Text of the 13th Amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
This was the amendment that prohibited the practice of slavery in the United States after the Civil War. Notice the bolded exception, and consider who the United States tends to put in prison a LOT more than everyone else.
Taken from that angle, it starts to make much more sense as to why thing are the way they are. Criminal justice in the United States is deeply warped by profit motive (and, y'know, racism). It meshes nicely with "Get Tough On Crime" and "Zero Tolerance" attitudes: indulge people's gut-level desire to punish wrongdoers and spend effort on scooping people up to exploit, rather than spending effort on improving standards of living or community health.
Now the ICE detainees are being put to work. Totally called it.
It's just small stuff now, cleaning the facilities they are housed in (to include offices, etc), but it is only "voluntary" in the Sergeant Detritus manner. "It's voluntary only you gotta do it."
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 14, 2018, 05:36:41 AM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on August 14, 2018, 05:25:36 AM
What pisses me off more than Gunn being fired in particular is the notion that this is the test run for a never-ending campaign of hitjobs like this.
And what pisses me off even more than that is that nobody wants to own up to the fact that this was always a flaw of call-out culture, and that while trying rapists and abusers in the court of public opinion is all well and good for people who otherwise would be untouchable, but can we all agree that shouldn't be the end goal? Like, isn't it time we started, y'know, fixing the legal system so victims can actually get justice? No? Just keep dragging celebrities cuz it makes us feel good? Well alright then.
That's not a flaw of call-out culture, it is the logical end result of call-out culture. You may remember what went on here a couple of years ago. That was basically a working model of what happened in the "real" world. It was never, ever about justice. It was about who the king-shit caller-outer was. Who was the most morally pure tumblrista.
It took quite some time for me to stop being bitter about that.
Yea, at the time i figured the aftermath of that scenario would be the typical result, a kind of "crabs in a bucket" thing, where the biggest King-shit Caller-outer would eventually get too big for their britches and get called out themselves, and a sort of self-regulatory equilibrium would occur. But to see the whole business completely hijacked by Nazis, and seeing some people I had a bit more respect for continue on with their witch hunt even after they've learned who started it, has brutally crushed that illusion
I've come up with a term for this particular subsection of SJWs, btw. Mob Justice Warriors, or MJWs. Those for whom the feigned desire for social justice is just a means of getting more heads in the guillotine.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 05, 2018, 09:40:03 PM
Another way to think about it is this: You MUST address flagrant injustices. You MUST ALSO address the underpinnings of your economy.
You have to do BOTH. If you can't or won't do both, then you are incompetent and/or useless in terms of running the government. The progressives will only do one, the dems will only do the other, and they are all furious at each other and won't work together, so we're all fucked. Actual Nazis will be in the congress, and everyone will continue saying "HOW DID WE GET HERE?"
PROPHECY!
Oh, we know how we got here.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 11, 2022, 08:55:13 PM
Oh, we know how we got here.
This thread is a fucking goldmine, really. :lulz: