from http://www.nw0.info 8)
only halfway done but the parallels are there.....
Manly P Hall - The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry Or The Secret Of Hiram Abiff.txt
QuoteThe world is a great prison; its bars are the Unknown. And each is a
prisoner until, at last, he earns the right to tear these bars from
their moldering sockets, and pass, illuminated and inspired, into
the darkness, which becomes lighted by that presence. All peoples
seek the temple where God dwells, where the spirit of the great
Truth illuminates the shadows of human ignorance, but they know not
which way to turn nor where this temple is. The mist of dogma
surrounds them. ...........
QuoteIn ******** is concealed the mystery of creation, the answer to the problem of existence, and the path the student must tread in order to join those who are really the living powers behind the thrones of modern national and international affairs. .....
QuoteWhat is the meaning of this mystic maze of symbols, rites and
rituals? THINK! What does life mean, with the criss-crossings of
human relationship, the endless pageantry of qualities masquerading
in a carnival of fools? THINK! What is the plan behind it all,
and who the planner? Where dwells the Great Architect, and what is
the tracing board upon which he designs? THINK! What is the human
soul, and why the endless yearning to ends unknown, along pathways
where each must wander unaccompanied? Why mind, why soul, why
spirit, and in truth, why anything? THINK! Is there an answer? If
so, where will the truth be found? Think............
.
QuoteThere comes a time in the growth of every living individual thing
when it realizes with dawning consciousness that it is a prisoner.
While apparently free to move and have its being, the struggling
life cognizes through ever greater vehicles its own limitations.
It is at this point that man cries out with greater insistence to
be liberated from the binding ties which, though invisible to
mortal eyes, still chain him with bonds far more terrible than
those of any physical prison. ............
Criticism: The above implies a higher power which can imprison, and even higer power that can liberate, and claims one can actually escape their cells.
See, that last quote is I think how Laz summed up the BIP. It takes the prison metaphor too far I think. I also think the idea of the bars being experiences, biology, envrionment, etc., is key. And what distinguishes it, among other things, from these passages you've posted. Sure, some of the bars are put in place by forces not of the person's control, but others are. So I think there is a certain level of autonomy that can be gained once the BIP is recognized. This version, however, seems to be bereft of any autonomy, and as LMNO points out, reliant upon a higher power or entity.
Quote from: LMNO on May 17, 2007, 12:53:56 PM
Criticism: The above implies a higher power which can imprison, and even higer power that can liberate, and claims one can actually escape their cells.
So does the BIP.
Says there will just be more bars.
The above also makes the point
QuoteReality forever eludes us.
and
QuoteMan is climbing an endless flight of steps, with his eyes fixed
upon the goal at the top.
well, it is well written either way and worth a read
Who is the one who built the prison?
Who is the one who can let you out?
Who is the one who makes the day and the night and the grass green?
I don't think a 'higher power' is necessarily an external power.
You
No-one
The sun
8)
Quote from: rzasthole on May 17, 2007, 01:49:47 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 17, 2007, 12:53:56 PM
Criticism: The above implies a higher power which can imprison, and even higer power that can liberate, and claims one can actually escape their cells.
So does the BIP.
Says there will just be more bars.
show me where anything in the BIP literature makes any claim of there being a "higher power".
Well what is your definition of higher power? Higher than self? If there is none then what is the prison? What are the bars? You overcome bars, you overcome the prison then the self is the highest power and ergo you are god. Like Jesus and the Old Testament said....."Ye are gods."
Just pondering.....
:roll:
Roll em. If you cannot overcome the prison then isn't it a higher power?
Only if you're playing loose and fast with accepted terms to such a degree they break down and lose their meanings entirely.
But hey, whats philosophical rigour compared to pithy one liners and faux-wisdom? That stuff may work on the cabbages, but its because they're morons incapable of critical thought.
Ok, I did just go off and spit that shit out without much thought. Please to forgive.......Anyway, there are striking similarities of the two even if one implies a higher power and one doesn't.
I disagree. Its like saying Theology and Physics are nearly the same, because both go into into areas with overlap, sometimes. By your definition, everything from airplanes to the sun could be considered gods, in some sense.
Which is really fucking stupid.
I dunno. I made the same analogy about god being the individual, but I don't take that to mean that everyone is their own higher power. higher than what? it just wouldn't make sense.
But your argument isn't characteristic derived, as far as I can tell. It seems more of a precept, or style of thinking.
Quote from: Cain on May 19, 2007, 11:05:58 PM
I disagree. Its like saying Theology and Physics are nearly the same, because both go into into areas with overlap, sometimes. By your definition, everything from airplanes to the sun could be considered gods, in some sense.
Which is really fucking stupid.
Well, many things have been considered gods in some since. Not that it isn't stupid.
A quote from closertogod.net from an email sent by a freemason
QuoteFreemasonry is essentially exactly what your web site claims to be; an attempt to understand God, and our relationship with whatever it is we find God to be.
This was kind of my point. What is God? If you say there is no God, then couldn't you reevaluate your definition or concept of God. Now while the term "higher power" obviously implies God, I feel that it is less specific. But I could be wrong. The masons frequently say, The Great Architect of the Universe, which seems to imply intelligence or a being, but could also just mean a personification of nature and its laws. Which wouldn't even have to go against an atheist or an agnostic view. Even though they wouldn't accept an atheist or agnostic into their fraternity(or so i hear.)
Quote from: Cain on May 19, 2007, 11:52:17 PM
But your argument isn't characteristic derived, as far as I can tell. It seems more of a precept, or style of thinking.
that's what I'm saying. To my way of thinking, "higher power" doesn't even factor into it. Allow people to realize that they have more power over themselves than anyone or anything else does, that's all. It really doesn't even have anything to do with conventionally-defined "spirituality". "Higher power" as it is construed in the popular lexicon is a fucking joke.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on May 20, 2007, 03:25:08 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 19, 2007, 11:52:17 PM
But your argument isn't characteristic derived, as far as I can tell. It seems more of a precept, or style of thinking.
that's what I'm saying. To my way of thinking, "higher power" doesn't even factor into it. Allow people to realize that they have more power over themselves than anyone or anything else does, that's all. It really doesn't even have anything to do with conventionally-defined "spirituality". "Higher power" as it is construed in the popular lexicon is a fucking joke.
Exactly. Our walls are of our own making. No one but us can build them, and no one but us can remove them. It's all about living with our decisions, not a higher power.
QuoteFreemasonry is essentially exactly what your web site claims to be; an attempt to understand God, and our relationship with whatever it is we find God to be.
Only true if you accept the definitions of Freemasonry as laid down by the Anderson Constitution of the United Grand Lodge of England. The Grand Orient of France accepts atheists into their ranks. UGLE and anyone adhering to their parameters do not.
(Yes, that's extremely hairsplitty. :lol:)
Then again, the Grand Orient also allow Mafia and ex-Fascists into their ranks, too....
I picked up a cheesy paperback the other day called 'Papal Magic' written by someone called Simon. He said that there was a Cardinal of the RC church that was at one time, a member of the OTO.
I can't tell you how much I hope that turns out to be true.
Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, Crowley and many Vatican priests share the same hobbies, if you catch my drift....
Quote from: Mangrove on May 20, 2007, 06:20:09 PM
I picked up a cheesy paperback the other day called 'Papal Magic' written by someone called Simon. He said that there was a Cardinal of the RC church that was at one time, a member of the OTO.
I can't tell you how much I hope that turns out to be true.
wonder if this simon is the same
con-artist Simon that reportly wrote the necronomican
Quote from: Cain on May 20, 2007, 06:24:54 PM
Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, Crowley and many Vatican priests share the same hobbies, if you catch my drift....
Paedophillia?
Of all the things Crowley has been accused of, I'm fairly sure that isn't one of them. Or are you thinking of something else? :lol:
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on May 20, 2007, 06:27:40 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on May 20, 2007, 06:20:09 PM
I picked up a cheesy paperback the other day called 'Papal Magic' written by someone called Simon. He said that there was a Cardinal of the RC church that was at one time, a member of the OTO.
I can't tell you how much I hope that turns out to be true.
wonder if this simon is the same con-artist Simon that reportly wrote the necronomican
correct. same guy.
i did say 'cheesy paperback' in my OP :wink:
Quote from: Mangrove on May 20, 2007, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 20, 2007, 06:24:54 PM
Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, Crowley and many Vatican priests share the same hobbies, if you catch my drift....
Paedophillia?
Of all the things Crowley has been accused of, I'm fairly sure that isn't one of them. Or are you thinking of something else? :lol:
Oh, thats right, all that shit in the Book of Law etc is metaphor. My bad.
Quote from: Cain on May 20, 2007, 06:42:23 PM
Quote from: Mangrove on May 20, 2007, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 20, 2007, 06:24:54 PM
Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, Crowley and many Vatican priests share the same hobbies, if you catch my drift....
Paedophillia?
Of all the things Crowley has been accused of, I'm fairly sure that isn't one of them. Or are you thinking of something else? :lol:
Oh, thats right, all that shit in the Book of Law etc is metaphor. My bad.
:fnord:
Too much Icke reading. :sad:
Quote from: Cain on May 20, 2007, 07:16:29 PM
Too much Icke reading. :sad:
i knew a couple of guys who were into readin Icke for lulz. they said he was the best author for 'turd in the punchbowl' writing.
they were like: "ok...bush as an alien lizard taking over the world i can accept as a metaphor. but saying it's troof? turd in the punchbowl."
Yeah, I'm the same. If it was fiction, or even metaphor, it would be awesome, and Icke would likely be rolling in it, cash-wise. But no, he has to ruin all the fun....
Icke should take all his <ahem> theories and put them into a fictional narrative under a pseudonym. Boom! He's the new Dan Brown.
Or one of us can do it. He does the work, we make the profit.
[re-jack]
Ratz, where this seems to unravel is that you're using multiple definitions simultaneously for the same words, like "God", and you're taking some of the metaphors as "real stuff", like cells, bars, and prisons.
You seem to be saying that if there is a "cell", there must be an "architect" of the cell, and therefore also a "warden", etc.
But the thing is, there is no actual cell. It's just a metaphor, a way of thinking about our thoughts and perceptions. It's not actually real.
Quote from: LMNO on May 21, 2007, 12:58:07 PM
Or one of us can do it. He does the work, we make the profit.
Three steps ahead of you.
Cain,
always thought Illuminatus! needed a modern sequel. And may not even be joking.
Niiiiice.
Quote from: LMNO on May 21, 2007, 12:58:07 PM
Or one of us can do it. He does the work, we make the profit.
[re-jack]
Ratz, where this seems to unravel is that you're using multiple definitions simultaneously for the same words, like "God", and you're taking some of the metaphors as "real stuff", like cells, bars, and prisons.
You seem to be saying that if there is a "cell", there must be an "architect" of the cell, and therefore also a "warden", etc.
But the thing is, there is no actual cell. It's just a metaphor, a way of thinking about our thoughts and perceptions. It's not actually real.
What do you mean not actually real?
HERETIC!!!!
(you know your philosophy has made the bigtime when assholes start taking it literally)
All we need now is a huge argument and schism over the 'substance' of the bars of the cell and whether the cell, warden and prisoner are of the same substance but manifesting with different personalities or whether the prisoner is subordinate to the warden.
Or not.
bars, cell, warden....I think we got a trinity here..... :sheep:
Quote from: LMNO on May 21, 2007, 12:58:07 PM
Or one of us can do it. He does the work, we make the profit.
[re-jack]
Ratz, where this seems to unravel is that you're using multiple definitions simultaneously for the same words, like "God", and you're taking some of the metaphors as "real stuff", like cells, bars, and prisons.
You seem to be saying that if there is a "cell", there must be an "architect" of the cell, and therefore also a "warden", etc.
But the thing is, there is no actual cell. It's just a metaphor, a way of thinking about our thoughts and perceptions. It's not actually real.
Well of course the cell is a metaphor. But metaphors stand for something right? Like the old bearded man in the sky is not really there, (but of course some people think He is.)
The architect, or the
chaos that wound up in this state of being, or your imaginary old man with lightning bolts, are all metaphors of what
is, right?
I don't see where you get that I think the cell is real? That is lunacy.
I don't think there is a pit of fire you go to after you die, but that doesn't stop me from trying to put meaning behind the metaphor. Such as, you do very bad things, you wind up in a very bad position (in life.)
And IMO, as for the bars referred to in Lost Keys, they are a very similar metaphor to the one in BIP. Even if they have certain, major differences. I am not trying to say that it is more right. Just that you all are a bunch of unoriginal bastards. j/k :lulz:
Plus, I like masonic writings and ideas. IMHO, very similar to many Discordian ideas on many levels. But thats just my opinion, and I am usually full of shit.
*runs for cover*
Of course it's just a metaphor. But I think the point is that there's no need to over think said metaphor. Take the cell and run with it.
Don't worry about adding in everything like wardens and architects, etc etc etc. Just take the metaphor and work with what's there, rather than trying to spread it too thin. I think, at least.
Like I could use my car as a metaphor for something and then someone would say, "But you drive stick, and that totally doesn't work with your metaphor." And then I'd have to go stabbity stab with a grapefruit spoon. It's not pretty. The lesson here is: look at what the metaphor is after, rather than going after over thinking it and expanding it unnecessarily.
Sorry, LMNO, if I completely derailed that.
Quote from: Mangrove on May 21, 2007, 11:08:47 PM
All we need now is a huge argument and schism over the 'substance' of the bars of the cell and whether the cell, warden and prisoner are of the same substance but manifesting with different personalities or whether the prisoner is subordinate to the warden.
Or not.
So how do you stand over the issue of 'original crime'?
Rzas, I understand you're not dumb enough to think that if you look hard enough, you'll actually see/feel black iron bars surrounding you.
What I am saying is that you should avoid falling into the trap of parallel extrapolation. You hear "Black Iron Prison", you think of IRL prisons, and you begin to make parallels. "A real prison has guards, wardens, communal showers, and conjugal visits," you say. "So that means that the BIP metaphor must contain the same things!"
It's not the same thing as eating the menu, but it's similar.
If it says on the menu 'prison' you got a rough idea whats gonna happen tho, no?
what you call 'parallel extrapolation' has got to happen hasn't it? That's the reason you called it "black iron prison" and not "white fluffy cupcake" or even just "the thing"
For a metaphor to work the map has to describe the territory.
Well, think about it.
You are in a situation where you cannot and will never, see the whole of the Universe, for biological and psychological reasons due to the fact that you are human.
You are in an inescapable situation. What would you call it?
1) I don't see it as inescapable, just largely unexplored
2) We've had this conversation before
3) I'd call it fun
1. Different metaphor
2. I know
3. Not that useful, in this situation.
1) prolly
2) you know how this ends then
3) more useful (from my pov) than 'prison'
example:
You've won some gameshow on teevee and they hand you two cards and tell you to pick your prize
1 card says 'fun' and the other card says 'prison' Now I know you're gonna say "I'd choose prison" iirc that's kinda how you got out of this last time but, back in the real world, how do you think the votes would fall if you gave the choice to a focus group?
I feel your example doesn't apply, because I consider that you're talking about what to do inside your cell, and I'm talking about the cell itself.
My point is I don't call it a cell. I agree with you that is is but it's equally a ticket to ride the fairground. It's kinda like the glass half empty/half full deal. You choose to see a prison I choose to see a game - 'fun'
I eagerly await your metaphoric dissertation.
Start a new meme on this, for Lulz' sake.
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 03:20:11 PM
I eagerly await your metaphoric dissertation.
Start a new meme on this, for Lulz' sake.
That's the punchline right there :lulz:
Problem is I'm a complete cunt who's just as happy laughing at people as laughing with them. Motivation issues tbh.
I come up with stuff from time to time, maybe some is funny maybe some is angry rant and might work in a bip sequel but its up to someone else if they wanna make a pamphlet out of it.
I don't give enough of a shit to actually work on it. I got too many things I do give a shit about that take priority. Most of these involve laughing, like an idiot.
Sue me.
(http://www.columbuscityattorney.org/images/subpoena.gif)
I do hope you realise that, despite my apathy, I am trying to be constructive here. I know I can sound critical but I've said before the BIP was a nice piece of work. If you were just now planning on releasing it I wouldn't bring this up cos you can really kill a project by bringing up these kinda issues and bitching about them. But now that you're discussing what to do next this is my two cents.
No, it's cool.
I understand that the terminology can be a bit of a downer, which is where the GSP came from.
I'm just saying that if we agree on the concepts, and you have a "happier" metaphor, you should share & expand on it.
I'm not sure I do, tbh. But you'll be the first to know if something turns up.
The thing that always struck me about the BIP was the 'Breaking out' factor. I agreed with you when you compared it to initiation, in that you're never really there but there is still a difference between an initiate and a non-intiate and that comes either upon the first experience or some time after right?
So I'm thinking that, although yes, essentially, you've only moved cells, in doing so you have become free or free-er. Now from the point of view of the person who hasn't seen the bars yet the BIP is prolly a bad thing, it's a limiting factor, it's a life unfulfilled but, once you're out then it isn't a bad thing, despite the fact that you're still stuck there, because you know you're stuck there and that changes fucking everything!
That's when the GSP or something else comes in. That's when alcatraz goes from being a jail to a tourist ride.
Yeah, I get it.
To me, it becomes an issue of responsibility. Once you see the bars, and once you know that a lot of them are there by choice, then it becomes your responsibility to choose and maintain the cell you want to have. If you want it to be one of fun and joy, that's up to you. If you want to ride the gallows humor of paranoia to the bleak gutter, that's also up to you.
Exactly! I find that it's a whole adventure just trying to maintain lucidity. My biological container is a seriously undisciplined pile of shit but I kinda like it that way. When emotions flare up and I get all upset and stuff - that's funny as hell right there :lulz:
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 04:27:09 PM
Yeah, I get it.
To me, it becomes an issue of responsibility. Once you see the bars, and once you know that a lot of them are there by choice, then it becomes your responsibility to choose and maintain the cell you want to have. If you want it to be one of fun and joy, that's up to you. If you want to ride the gallows humor of paranoia to the bleak gutter, that's also up to you.
I added a window to mine. Needed some sunlight.
I hung this poster up on one wall of mine.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/Marburger/STFUChemical.jpg)
:emo:
Is the original once posted at MW still intact? I would like to see it posted at MA. A little fertile ground over there.
Which "one" do you mean?
I think it was the thread starter for the BIP at MW. I may have to go mining to find it.
It's gone. No trace of it at all.
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=138637
It wasn't in the Ghetto.
Quote from: SillyCybin on May 22, 2007, 07:08:59 AM
Quote from: Mangrove on May 21, 2007, 11:08:47 PM
All we need now is a huge argument and schism over the 'substance' of the bars of the cell and whether the cell, warden and prisoner are of the same substance but manifesting with different personalities or whether the prisoner is subordinate to the warden.
Or not.
So how do you stand over the issue of 'original crime'?
you have to accept the parole board as your own personal saviour :lulz:
Quote from: Cain on May 22, 2007, 06:26:23 PM
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=138637
It wasn't in the Ghetto.
Thank you, I was looking in the Ghetto. I have copied it and posted it at MA with credit to the OP, LMNO.
You mean the one where I brow beat the pagan until she agreed with me?
I think it was in "paths".
Quote from: SillyCybin on May 22, 2007, 03:39:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 03:20:11 PM
I eagerly await your metaphoric dissertation.
Start a new meme on this, for Lulz' sake.
That's the punchline right there :lulz:
Problem is I'm a complete cunt who's just as happy laughing at people as laughing with them. Motivation issues tbh.
I come up with stuff from time to time, maybe some is funny maybe some is angry rant and might work in a bip sequel but its up to someone else if they wanna make a pamphlet out of it.
I don't give enough of a shit to actually work on it. I got too many things I do give a shit about that take priority. Most of these involve laughing, like an idiot.
Sue me.
you don't need to write a lot on it. just formulate it in 5 paragraphs, 500 words or less. you can do that. and people will eat it like warm pie.
Or cake.