This thread is a dumping ground for the so called "Mandela effect". It was sparked during a conversation over in this thread here. (https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,38163.0.html) It primarily exists as a reference to avoid derailing the thread above. If folks want to add to it go right ahead. I'm going to merely report what folks have been attributing to the effect. If others want to be more whimsical I sure wouldn't mind. This shit is heavy enough and I could use a laugh.
QuoteIsaiah 11:6-8
6The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra's den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper's nest.
This is the infamous "lion and lamb" quote that appears to now involve a lamb and wolf. If you never read the passage you'd never know the difference in that it's crazy talk about peaceful animals, but this is in reference to the world peace of the messiah's kingdom to come and the animals represent political and spiritual entities. There was never a wolf with the lamb to my recollection and it was the wolf eating grass, not the lion.
QuoteMatthew 6:9-13 (Lord's Prayer)
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
Luke 11: 2-4
2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3Give us day by day our daily bread.
4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Here we have the Lord's prayer in both versions. It's notable that it now says debt instead of tresspass and "evil one" where most would remember just saying "evil".
There's no affirmation "for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen." It totally doesn't exist. :fnord:
Quote2 Corinthians 11:8
8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you(the church of Corinth) service.
If I recall correctly Paul never referred to himself as a thief or confessed theft in his epistles. Of course the whole "Mandela" thing is about whether or not folks are in fact recalling shit correctly.
Quote
Matthew 21:1-3
1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
2Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
3And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
Here we have a narrative discrepancy in that there was "originally" only one ass and no colt in the palm Sunday story, yet there it is. Two asses for the price of one.
Quote
Luke 19:27
27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
The way this read was "shew (show) them before me". Jesus never called for murder and was quite the ardent pacifist to the death. This is just a sampling of the weirdness in the bible lately... but of course these passages were
always this way surely...
That's it for now. These five barely scratch the surface of what folks are reporting in vast numbers as discrepancies in scripture. It's only going to get weirder from here on out and I suspect that a major schism is likely to happen over this shit. Folks do get touchy about their "holy" books after all.
They have been doing this since the council of Nicaea in 325. To a greater or lesser extent.
It really annoys the fundies when you argue that their "word of god" is a party political broadcast. Take those Jehovah's Witness nutters, the original text was along the lines of not CONSUMING blood.
Need to find the citation, but I remember reading that there was an uproar over the King James text when it first came out, the papists clicked that the text had been changed to a subtle support for king over church.
I may be wrong but I think the Lord's Prayer example results from differences between the KJV translation and the traditional Catholic recital, which is heard more often in popular culture.
The rest of it is definitely due to time travelers or the Large Hadron Collider, though.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 09:15:04 AM
I may be wrong but I think the Lord's Prayer example results from differences between the KJV translation and the traditional Catholic recital, which is heard more often in popular culture.
The rest of it is definitely due to time travelers or the Large Hadron Collider, though.
You're correct. Catholics end it at "but deliver us from evil".
During Mass, the priest then continues, "Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ." They changed the wording of the translation in 2011, but that's not how I was brought up so, obviously that's all wrong
I have a Mandela effect thing, that I'm not sure anyone else had. I could have sworn that someone different played Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters II, because Ernie Hudson passed on reprising the role. It would have been reasonable to do so, because as I would find out later, he wasn't very happy with how downplayed his character was in the first movie and how it didn't really help his career that much as was promised. However, Hudson definitely played Zeddemore twice.
I remember Winston having a much larger role in Ghostbusters than he actually does in either movie, but I think it's because I watched the cartoon version a lot as a kid. But I never paid that much attention to the behind the scenes stuff.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 09:15:04 AM
I may be wrong but I think the Lord's Prayer example results from differences between the KJV translation and the traditional Catholic recital, which is heard more often in popular culture.
The rest of it is definitely due to time travelers or the Large Hadron Collider, though.
Yeah I thought it might be from reconciliation of the two on "deliver us from evil". The use of the word "debts" in both is news to me and the bigger mystery. "Tresspass" has a rather different meaning and that's how I was taught it for sure.
Quote from: Fallenkezef on July 02, 2017, 09:06:27 AM
They have been doing this since the council of Nicaea in 325. To a greater or lesser extent.
It really annoys the fundies when you argue that their "word of god" is a party political broadcast. Take those Jehovah's Witness nutters, the original text was along the lines of not CONSUMING blood.
Need to find the citation, but I remember reading that there was an uproar over the King James text when it first came out, the papists clicked that the text had been changed to a subtle support for king over church.
The Watchtower Society are some crazy fuckers. I'd like to see if there's any buzz from them on this, but don't care to dig into their shit to find out.
As for the KJV drawing criticism... not surprising. I always thought that raising one particular translation to the status of "Infallible Word Of God" was pretty much idolatry. But folks disagreed with fire back then.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: Fallenkezef on July 02, 2017, 09:06:27 AM
They have been doing this since the council of Nicaea in 325. To a greater or lesser extent.
It really annoys the fundies when you argue that their "word of god" is a party political broadcast. Take those Jehovah's Witness nutters, the original text was along the lines of not CONSUMING blood.
Need to find the citation, but I remember reading that there was an uproar over the King James text when it first came out, the papists clicked that the text had been changed to a subtle support for king over church.
Classic con job. The common folk eat it up, thinking they where being empowered when it was just the king trying to wrestle control from the church by attacking thier power base. Catholics clicked on it first, took the protestants longer to fugure out the con.
The Watchtower Society are some crazy fuckers. I'd like to see if there's any buzz from them on this, but don't care to dig into their shit to find out.
As for the KJV drawing criticism... not surprising. I always thought that raising one particular translation to the status of "Infallible Word Of God" was pretty much idolatry. But folks disagreed with fire back then.
That was weird.
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 01:08:59 PM
I have a Mandela effect thing, that I'm not sure anyone else had. I could have sworn that someone different played Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters II, because Ernie Hudson passed on reprising the role. It would have been reasonable to do so, because as I would find out later, he wasn't very happy with how downplayed his character was in the first movie and how it didn't really help his career that much as was promised. However, Hudson definitely played Zeddemore twice.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 04:35:45 PM
I remember Winston having a much larger role in Ghostbusters than he actually does in either movie, but I think it's because I watched the cartoon version a lot as a kid. But I never paid that much attention to the behind the scenes stuff.
Now I want to watch the Ghostbusters again just to see.
There are a LOT of movie and media Mandelas. They even say folks remember movies that never existed like "Shazam!", a movie about a genie named Shazam that had Sinbad cast as the genie. Never happened, but I personally remember the movie clear as day from when I worked in a video rental place around 16 years ago.
There's also a LOT of Star Wars ones. C3po's silver leg is one. Another is the infamous quote "Luke, I am your father" is now "No. I am your father". There's even footage of James Earl Jones repeating the line with "Luke" in it on a daytime talk show. You'd think he would know.
There's a James Bond one where Jaws meets a woman who smiles at him and they just click for no reason. I never saw the "original" but folks swear she used to have a mouth full of braces and the metal teeth thing was their motivation in the scene.
Are there any even remotely plausible explanations for the phenomenon that veer into Weird territory? I've heard the LHC one, and time travel, but really the LHC thing is silly because the effects of those experiments are scientifically unsurprising even when they produce new information. I mean it isn't like they've discovered gigantic holes in the standard or relativistic models or there's some kind of "might puncture the spacetime continuum" warning from anyone other than nutters on Reddit.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 05:24:39 PM
Are there any even remotely plausible explanations for the phenomenon that veer into Weird territory? I've heard the LHC one, and time travel, but really the LHC thing is silly because the effects of those experiments are scientifically unsurprising even when they produce new information. I mean it isn't like they've discovered gigantic holes in the standard or relativistic models or there's some kind of "might puncture the spacetime continuum" warning from anyone other than nutters on Reddit.
The LHC one is sort of an outgrowth of an even more bizarre theory that CERN is actually a gateway to hell built with that intent... ya know, like scientists do. :roll:
They can't all be Parsons.
I don't know if this qualifies (probably not), but I remember as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s playing these "choose your own adventure" games via telephone hotlines. I was curious one day and decided to look them up online, but they're not mentioned anywhere I can find them (or my google-fu is poor) except on one forum post somewhere with no replies. Maybe the Time Lords cancelled their existence.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 05:17:22 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 01:08:59 PM
I have a Mandela effect thing, that I'm not sure anyone else had. I could have sworn that someone different played Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters II, because Ernie Hudson passed on reprising the role. It would have been reasonable to do so, because as I would find out later, he wasn't very happy with how downplayed his character was in the first movie and how it didn't really help his career that much as was promised. However, Hudson definitely played Zeddemore twice.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 04:35:45 PM
I remember Winston having a much larger role in Ghostbusters than he actually does in either movie, but I think it's because I watched the cartoon version a lot as a kid. But I never paid that much attention to the behind the scenes stuff.
Now I want to watch the Ghostbusters again just to see.
There are a LOT of movie and media Mandelas. They even say folks remember movies that never existed like "Shazam!", a movie about a genie named Shazam that had Sinbad cast as the genie. Never happened, but I personally remember the movie clear as day from when I worked in a video rental place around 16 years ago.
There's also a LOT of Star Wars ones. C3po's silver leg is one. Another is the infamous quote "Luke, I am your father" is now "No. I am your father". There's even footage of James Earl Jones repeating the line with "Luke" in it on a daytime talk show. You'd think he would know.
There's a James Bond one where Jaws meets a woman who smiles at him and they just click for no reason. I never saw the "original" but folks swear she used to have a mouth full of braces and the metal teeth thing was their motivation in the scene.
The first time Winston uses a proton pack in the movie is at Gozer's Temple. That is the only time you see him busting anything.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
I don't know if this qualifies (probably not), but I remember as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s playing these "choose your own adventure" games via telephone hotlines. I was curious one day and decided to look them up online, but they're not mentioned anywhere I can find them (or my google-fu is poor) except on one forum post somewhere with no replies. Maybe the Time Lords cancelled their existence.
That sounds familiar, but I'm not sure if that's because it seems plausible that that would have existed at some point.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
I don't know if this qualifies (probably not), but I remember as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s playing these "choose your own adventure" games via telephone hotlines. I was curious one day and decided to look them up online, but they're not mentioned anywhere I can find them (or my google-fu is poor) except on one forum post somewhere with no replies. Maybe the Time Lords cancelled their existence.
:lulz: See and I've never heard of any such thing. We must be from different universes of origin!
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 05:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 05:17:22 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 01:08:59 PM
I have a Mandela effect thing, that I'm not sure anyone else had. I could have sworn that someone different played Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters II, because Ernie Hudson passed on reprising the role. It would have been reasonable to do so, because as I would find out later, he wasn't very happy with how downplayed his character was in the first movie and how it didn't really help his career that much as was promised. However, Hudson definitely played Zeddemore twice.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 04:35:45 PM
I remember Winston having a much larger role in Ghostbusters than he actually does in either movie, but I think it's because I watched the cartoon version a lot as a kid. But I never paid that much attention to the behind the scenes stuff.
Now I want to watch the Ghostbusters again just to see.
There are a LOT of movie and media Mandelas. They even say folks remember movies that never existed like "Shazam!", a movie about a genie named Shazam that had Sinbad cast as the genie. Never happened, but I personally remember the movie clear as day from when I worked in a video rental place around 16 years ago.
There's also a LOT of Star Wars ones. C3po's silver leg is one. Another is the infamous quote "Luke, I am your father" is now "No. I am your father". There's even footage of James Earl Jones repeating the line with "Luke" in it on a daytime talk show. You'd think he would know.
There's a James Bond one where Jaws meets a woman who smiles at him and they just click for no reason. I never saw the "original" but folks swear she used to have a mouth full of braces and the metal teeth thing was their motivation in the scene.
The first time Winston uses a proton pack in the movie is at Gozer's Temple. That is the only time you see him busting anything.
That can not be right. Maybe it is, but I could swear there were transition scenes with him carrying a pack.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 05:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 05:17:22 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 01:08:59 PM
I have a Mandela effect thing, that I'm not sure anyone else had. I could have sworn that someone different played Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters II, because Ernie Hudson passed on reprising the role. It would have been reasonable to do so, because as I would find out later, he wasn't very happy with how downplayed his character was in the first movie and how it didn't really help his career that much as was promised. However, Hudson definitely played Zeddemore twice.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 04:35:45 PM
I remember Winston having a much larger role in Ghostbusters than he actually does in either movie, but I think it's because I watched the cartoon version a lot as a kid. But I never paid that much attention to the behind the scenes stuff.
Now I want to watch the Ghostbusters again just to see.
There are a LOT of movie and media Mandelas. They even say folks remember movies that never existed like "Shazam!", a movie about a genie named Shazam that had Sinbad cast as the genie. Never happened, but I personally remember the movie clear as day from when I worked in a video rental place around 16 years ago.
There's also a LOT of Star Wars ones. C3po's silver leg is one. Another is the infamous quote "Luke, I am your father" is now "No. I am your father". There's even footage of James Earl Jones repeating the line with "Luke" in it on a daytime talk show. You'd think he would know.
There's a James Bond one where Jaws meets a woman who smiles at him and they just click for no reason. I never saw the "original" but folks swear she used to have a mouth full of braces and the metal teeth thing was their motivation in the scene.
The first time Winston uses a proton pack in the movie is at Gozer's Temple. That is the only time you see him busting anything.
That can not be right. Maybe it is, but I could swear there were transition scenes with him carrying a pack.
No transition scenes. The first time he busts something on screen, it's a god.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
I don't know if this qualifies (probably not), but I remember as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s playing these "choose your own adventure" games via telephone hotlines. I was curious one day and decided to look them up online, but they're not mentioned anywhere I can find them (or my google-fu is poor) except on one forum post somewhere with no replies. Maybe the Time Lords cancelled their existence.
I've had things where I've tried to remember their names or look them up but was unable to find them for years (and I then I suddenly found most of them over the course of the previous year. For those curious these included the movie "Soulkeeper", the cartoon "The Halloween Tree", the book "The Summer I Shrunk My Grandmother", and the published D&D encounter "The Shrine of Gath-Mal)
Now as for the bible you also have to keep in mind that there's at least twenty-something translations, take a look:
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/1-2.htm
Also the King James version while famous is in many places a very poor translation. In the Book of Revelation for instance it has the personification of famine giving out food essentially for free.
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 03, 2017, 02:08:09 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
I don't know if this qualifies (probably not), but I remember as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s playing these "choose your own adventure" games via telephone hotlines. I was curious one day and decided to look them up online, but they're not mentioned anywhere I can find them (or my google-fu is poor) except on one forum post somewhere with no replies. Maybe the Time Lords cancelled their existence.
I've had things where I've tried to remember their names or look them up but was unable to find them for years (and I then I suddenly found most of them over the course of the previous year. For those curious these included the movie "Soulkeeper", the cartoon "The Halloween Tree", the book "The Summer I Shrunk My Grandmother", and the published D&D encounter "The Shrine of Gath-Mal)
Now as for the bible you also have to keep in mind that there's at least twenty-something translations, take a look:
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/1-2.htm
Also the King James version while famous is in many places a very poor translation. In the Book of Revelation for instance it has the personification of famine giving out food essentially for free.
While I agree the KJV is shit translation, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually in it.
:cn:
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 03, 2017, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 03, 2017, 02:08:09 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
I don't know if this qualifies (probably not), but I remember as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s playing these "choose your own adventure" games via telephone hotlines. I was curious one day and decided to look them up online, but they're not mentioned anywhere I can find them (or my google-fu is poor) except on one forum post somewhere with no replies. Maybe the Time Lords cancelled their existence.
I've had things where I've tried to remember their names or look them up but was unable to find them for years (and I then I suddenly found most of them over the course of the previous year. For those curious these included the movie "Soulkeeper", the cartoon "The Halloween Tree", the book "The Summer I Shrunk My Grandmother", and the published D&D encounter "The Shrine of Gath-Mal)
Now as for the bible you also have to keep in mind that there's at least twenty-something translations, take a look:
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/1-2.htm
Also the King James version while famous is in many places a very poor translation. In the Book of Revelation for instance it has the personification of famine giving out food essentially for free.
While I agree the KJV is shit translation, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually in it.
:cn:
http://biblehub.com/revelation/6-6.htm
compare:
New International Version:
Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"Berean Litetal Bible
And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenixes of barley for a denarius; and you should not injure the oil and the wine."New Living Translation
And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, "A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day's pay. And don't waste the olive oil and wine."King James
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, 'A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.'Now, I checked, and I'm pretty sure the British penny is as worthless as the American penny (can one of you brits verify?) and also I did a google search and apparently some of the really miserable third world sweatshop workers get as little as one cent an hour, so if we're really generous the King James Bible is off by a factor of ten
well it might have made sense 400 years ago. there were probably plenty of people earned a penny a day (or less).
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 01:08:59 PM
I could have sworn that someone different played Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters II, because Ernie Hudson passed on reprising the role.
When I read this sentence the first time I accidentally read it as if there was a comma between "on" and "reprising".
That would've been a great Ghostbusters movie.
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 03, 2017, 05:18:13 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 03, 2017, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 03, 2017, 02:08:09 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
I don't know if this qualifies (probably not), but I remember as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s playing these "choose your own adventure" games via telephone hotlines. I was curious one day and decided to look them up online, but they're not mentioned anywhere I can find them (or my google-fu is poor) except on one forum post somewhere with no replies. Maybe the Time Lords cancelled their existence.
I've had things where I've tried to remember their names or look them up but was unable to find them for years (and I then I suddenly found most of them over the course of the previous year. For those curious these included the movie "Soulkeeper", the cartoon "The Halloween Tree", the book "The Summer I Shrunk My Grandmother", and the published D&D encounter "The Shrine of Gath-Mal)
Now as for the bible you also have to keep in mind that there's at least twenty-something translations, take a look:
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/1-2.htm
Also the King James version while famous is in many places a very poor translation. In the Book of Revelation for instance it has the personification of famine giving out food essentially for free.
While I agree the KJV is shit translation, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually in it.
:cn:
http://biblehub.com/revelation/6-6.htm
compare:
New International Version:
Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
Berean Litetal Bible
And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenixes of barley for a denarius; and you should not injure the oil and the wine."
New Living Translation
And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, "A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day's pay. And don't waste the olive oil and wine."
King James
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, 'A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.'
Now, I checked, and I'm pretty sure the British penny is as worthless as the American penny (can one of you brits verify?) and also I did a google search and apparently some of the really miserable third world sweatshop workers get as little as one cent an hour, so if we're really generous the King James Bible is off by a factor of ten
That scripture is actually saying it will be terribly expensive for basic things like bread, and stuff like wine and olive oil will be absurdly expensive. Bread, olive oil and wine were the staples of the day.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: Fallenkezef on July 02, 2017, 09:06:27 AM
They have been doing this since the council of Nicaea in 325. To a greater or lesser extent.
It really annoys the fundies when you argue that their "word of god" is a party political broadcast. Take those Jehovah's Witness nutters, the original text was along the lines of not CONSUMING blood.
Need to find the citation, but I remember reading that there was an uproar over the King James text when it first came out, the papists clicked that the text had been changed to a subtle support for king over church.
The Watchtower Society are some crazy fuckers. I'd like to see if there's any buzz from them on this, but don't care to dig into their shit to find out.
As for the KJV drawing criticism... not surprising. I always thought that raising one particular translation to the status of "Infallible Word Of God" was pretty much idolatry. But folks disagreed with fire back then.
JW's have their own bible, the New Word Translation. To their minds, it is by far the most accurate translation. Granted, the guys that did the translation had no formal training in Hebrew or Greek and there are some seriously questionable translations that seem to be more about confirming their doctrine than having an exact translation. For example, John 1:1 is generally translated to something like "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Now, JW"s claim the Word is Jesus, and that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God. So in the NWT they translated John 1:1 as "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God and the Word was
a God." They claim that the Greek includes "an indefinate article a"... but of course every Greek scholar in existence seems to think this is nutty as Jif (or Jiffy) peanut butter. They also translated the scriptures to include "Jehovah" all over the place, where most translations have GOD or LORD (all caps).
The scripture from Isiah, about the Wolf and Lamb is believed by JW's, as literal. Their belief is that in Eden, all God's living creatures were basically vegan until the Flood. After the flood, veggies weren't as awesome as they were before, so God told Noah humans had to start eating animals (but not the blood). They believe that after Armageddon, humans and animals will return to being vegans.
I'm guessing that means sharks are gonna live on seaweed or something...
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 03, 2017, 06:20:55 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: Fallenkezef on July 02, 2017, 09:06:27 AM
They have been doing this since the council of Nicaea in 325. To a greater or lesser extent.
It really annoys the fundies when you argue that their "word of god" is a party political broadcast. Take those Jehovah's Witness nutters, the original text was along the lines of not CONSUMING blood.
Need to find the citation, but I remember reading that there was an uproar over the King James text when it first came out, the papists clicked that the text had been changed to a subtle support for king over church.
The Watchtower Society are some crazy fuckers. I'd like to see if there's any buzz from them on this, but don't care to dig into their shit to find out.
As for the KJV drawing criticism... not surprising. I always thought that raising one particular translation to the status of "Infallible Word Of God" was pretty much idolatry. But folks disagreed with fire back then.
JW's have their own bible, the New Word Translation. To their minds, it is by far the most accurate translation. Granted, the guys that did the translation had no formal training in Hebrew or Greek and there are some seriously questionable translations that seem to be more about confirming their doctrine than having an exact translation. For example, John 1:1 is generally translated to something like "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Now, JW"s claim the Word is Jesus, and that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God. So in the NWT they translated John 1:1 as "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God and the Word was a God." They claim that the Greek includes "an indefinate article a"... but of course every Greek scholar in existence seems to think this is nutty as Jif (or Jiffy) peanut butter. They also translated the scriptures to include "Jehovah" all over the place, where most translations have GOD or LORD (all caps).
It was my understanding that a lot of the "LORD"s were indedd a standin for "Jehovah"/"Yahweh" in the original text (though I forget whether that was something that the english translators did or merely something some historians hypothesized to have been done by the people making the greek/hebrew/latin/aramaic copies, the changes thus having been already made prior to the english translation)
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 03, 2017, 06:43:54 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 03, 2017, 06:20:55 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: Fallenkezef on July 02, 2017, 09:06:27 AM
They have been doing this since the council of Nicaea in 325. To a greater or lesser extent.
It really annoys the fundies when you argue that their "word of god" is a party political broadcast. Take those Jehovah's Witness nutters, the original text was along the lines of not CONSUMING blood.
Need to find the citation, but I remember reading that there was an uproar over the King James text when it first came out, the papists clicked that the text had been changed to a subtle support for king over church.
The Watchtower Society are some crazy fuckers. I'd like to see if there's any buzz from them on this, but don't care to dig into their shit to find out.
As for the KJV drawing criticism... not surprising. I always thought that raising one particular translation to the status of "Infallible Word Of God" was pretty much idolatry. But folks disagreed with fire back then.
JW's have their own bible, the New Word Translation. To their minds, it is by far the most accurate translation. Granted, the guys that did the translation had no formal training in Hebrew or Greek and there are some seriously questionable translations that seem to be more about confirming their doctrine than having an exact translation. For example, John 1:1 is generally translated to something like "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Now, JW"s claim the Word is Jesus, and that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God. So in the NWT they translated John 1:1 as "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God and the Word was a God." They claim that the Greek includes "an indefinate article a"... but of course every Greek scholar in existence seems to think this is nutty as Jif (or Jiffy) peanut butter. They also translated the scriptures to include "Jehovah" all over the place, where most translations have GOD or LORD (all caps).
It was my understanding that a lot of the "LORD"s were indedd a standin for "Jehovah"/"Yahweh"
Yeah, it was used in place of the Tetragrammaton. The reasoning in the JW translation, though, is less about accuracy and more about justification for their name. Isa. 43:10 seems a lot more impressive when it reads "You are my witnesses, is the utterance of Jehovah", instead of "You are my witnesses, is the utterance of the LORD"
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 02, 2017, 05:17:22 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 01:08:59 PM
I have a Mandela effect thing, that I'm not sure anyone else had. I could have sworn that someone different played Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters II, because Ernie Hudson passed on reprising the role. It would have been reasonable to do so, because as I would find out later, he wasn't very happy with how downplayed his character was in the first movie and how it didn't really help his career that much as was promised. However, Hudson definitely played Zeddemore twice.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 04:35:45 PM
I remember Winston having a much larger role in Ghostbusters than he actually does in either movie, but I think it's because I watched the cartoon version a lot as a kid. But I never paid that much attention to the behind the scenes stuff.
Now I want to watch the Ghostbusters again just to see.
There are a LOT of movie and media Mandelas. They even say folks remember movies that never existed like "Shazam!", a movie about a genie named Shazam that had Sinbad cast as the genie. Never happened, but I personally remember the movie clear as day from when I worked in a video rental place around 16 years ago.
The movie was named "
Kazaam!", and it starred Shaq, not Sinbad. The misremembered name is explainable by confusion with a similarly named character from "Captain Marvel". The misremembered casting is explainable by the fact that Shaq is really much more famous as an athlete than an actor and they both were big around the same time and have shaved heads and mononymous names beginning with the letter "S"
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 03, 2017, 05:28:29 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 02, 2017, 01:08:59 PM
I could have sworn that someone different played Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters II, because Ernie Hudson passed on reprising the role.
When I read this sentence the first time I accidentally read it as if there was a comma between "on" and "reprising". That would've been a great Ghostbusters movie.
Metal. As. Fuck.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 03, 2017, 06:02:40 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 03, 2017, 05:18:13 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 03, 2017, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 03, 2017, 02:08:09 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 02, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
I don't know if this qualifies (probably not), but I remember as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s playing these "choose your own adventure" games via telephone hotlines. I was curious one day and decided to look them up online, but they're not mentioned anywhere I can find them (or my google-fu is poor) except on one forum post somewhere with no replies. Maybe the Time Lords cancelled their existence.
I've had things where I've tried to remember their names or look them up but was unable to find them for years (and I then I suddenly found most of them over the course of the previous year. For those curious these included the movie "Soulkeeper", the cartoon "The Halloween Tree", the book "The Summer I Shrunk My Grandmother", and the published D&D encounter "The Shrine of Gath-Mal)
Now as for the bible you also have to keep in mind that there's at least twenty-something translations, take a look:
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/1-2.htm
Also the King James version while famous is in many places a very poor translation. In the Book of Revelation for instance it has the personification of famine giving out food essentially for free.
While I agree the KJV is shit translation, I'm pretty sure this isn't actually in it.
:cn:
http://biblehub.com/revelation/6-6.htm
compare:
New International Version:
Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
Berean Litetal Bible
And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenixes of barley for a denarius; and you should not injure the oil and the wine."
New Living Translation
And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, "A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day's pay. And don't waste the olive oil and wine."
King James
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, 'A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.'
Now, I checked, and I'm pretty sure the British penny is as worthless as the American penny (can one of you brits verify?) and also I did a google search and apparently some of the really miserable third world sweatshop workers get as little as one cent an hour, so if we're really generous the King James Bible is off by a factor of ten
That scripture is actually saying it will be terribly expensive for basic things like bread, and stuff like wine and olive oil will be absurdly expensive. Bread, olive oil and wine were the staples of the day.
This. The use of "penny" isn't what I remember. I remember "day's wages" but I prefer the NIV so that could just be me...
Or it could be yet another Mandela effect.
A penny might have been a shitload of money during the reign of James
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 04, 2017, 12:55:05 AM
A penny might have been a shitload of money during the reign of James
We'll get there again, someday.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
I've got one under the category of "or otherwise" that may be appropriate for our Independence Day. I'm seeing what I call a "Rewriting of History" concerning the US contribution to winning WWII. I've never thought of it as the Mandela Effect, but I suppose this example may count as such.
My old memories of the Normandy invasion are based upon the stories I heard as a boy (Including the brief utterances of an uncle who landed on Utah Beach), the many documentaries of the 1950's, and statements made by Stephen E. Ambrose, an eminent historian of WWII. Lately, I'm finding those memories are significantly different from what I'm now reading, and seeing on TV.
Being a student of history, and having had the opportunity to visit the Normandy beachheads with "Uncle François" (extended family) as a guide, my memories of all of this are quite clear and vivid.
When we visited The Mémorial de Caen, I was surprised to learn that Americans had been, pretty much, allowed to tag along with the British during their great victories at the Normandy beachheads. And although I was irritated, I wrote it off as the French catering to the large numbers of British tourists visiting the museum, versus the paltry number of Americans that manage to find there way into Caen. (We had visited the Normandy beachheads, museums, and cemeteries during one of the invasion anniversaries, and still only a small handful of Americans were there.)
Anyway, now I'm reading, and seeing on TV, that we Americans had totally misjudged the difficulty in fighting our way through the famous Normandy hedgerows, and that's why it took Americans so long to achieve a breakout from the beachheads. The way I remember it, however, is that our allies totally screwed the pooch by not taking Caen on schedule, and leading the originally planned breakout through the flat, open country, sans hedgerows, that lie to the east of Omaha beach. I distinctly remember Stephen E. Ambrose remarking that after making easy landings at their assigned beachheads, our allies stopped to make tea, congratulate themselves, and fail to aggressively press further inland over easy terrain.
Again, to emphasize my point, I'm now reading, and seeing on TV, that we Americans are the ones that dropped the ball. And this despite the fact that it was American forces that ultimately achieved the Normandy breakout at Saint-Lô. Needless to say, I'm offended after seeing for myself what American forces had to deal with at Omaha beach and Pointe du Hoc, compared to what the other allied forces faced. And although casualties were much lighter at Utah beach, I'm surprised the landing there succeeded at all, after seeing the lay of the land for myself.
So, is this an example of the Mandela Effect?
It could be in that the effect is in having a vastly different memory from what reality currently presents to most. I would have to consult with my dad who is a serious world war II buff to know the context, but let me ask you this without googling: What color were Hitler's eyes?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY)
The above is a link to a high quality version of the "Zapruder film" of JFK's assassination. Notice anything different? I remember a different angle and a 4 seater sedan not 6. The final headshot looks different to me as well.
There's a lot of material covering this ME on youtube. I remember when the big going theory was the driver shot him from several frames that might be construed as him turning back towards Kennedy with a "gun" that was too blurry to be sure of, but bare moments before the final shot. None of these frames exist anymore and the going theory, for a long time now apparently, is that JACKIE might have shot him.
Tell me I'm crazy. This freaked me out more than even C-3po's silver leg.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:41:35 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY)
The above is a link to a high quality version of the "Zapruder film" of JFK's assassination. Notice anything different? I remember a different angle and a 4 seater sedan not 6. The final headshot looks different to me as well.
There's a lot of material covering this ME on youtube. I remember when the big going theory was the driver shot him from several frames that might be construed as him turning back towards Kennedy with a "gun" that was too blurry to be sure of, but bare moments before the final shot. None of these frames exist anymore and the going theory, for a long time now apparently, is that JACKIE might have shot him.
Tell me I'm crazy. This freaked me out more than even C-3po's silver leg.
I remember noticing C-3PO's silver leg as a kid in the early 80s. And most people assume the JFK convertible was a 4-seater. I don't think that is all that unusual.
Quote from: Hoopla on July 05, 2017, 09:51:22 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:41:35 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY)
The above is a link to a high quality version of the "Zapruder film" of JFK's assassination. Notice anything different? I remember a different angle and a 4 seater sedan not 6. The final headshot looks different to me as well.
There's a lot of material covering this ME on youtube. I remember when the big going theory was the driver shot him from several frames that might be construed as him turning back towards Kennedy with a "gun" that was too blurry to be sure of, but bare moments before the final shot. None of these frames exist anymore and the going theory, for a long time now apparently, is that JACKIE might have shot him.
Tell me I'm crazy. This freaked me out more than even C-3po's silver leg.
I remember noticing C-3PO's silver leg as a kid in the early 80s. And most people assume the JFK convertible was a 4-seater. I don't think that is all that unusual.
There's a lot of folks who don't remember these things including myself. As for the causes I leave that to others to speculate about or scoff over, but it's a thing that is actually happening to folks. I merely report my own experience and what others seem to believe.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 10:41:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on July 05, 2017, 09:51:22 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:41:35 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY)
The above is a link to a high quality version of the "Zapruder film" of JFK's assassination. Notice anything different? I remember a different angle and a 4 seater sedan not 6. The final headshot looks different to me as well.
There's a lot of material covering this ME on youtube. I remember when the big going theory was the driver shot him from several frames that might be construed as him turning back towards Kennedy with a "gun" that was too blurry to be sure of, but bare moments before the final shot. None of these frames exist anymore and the going theory, for a long time now apparently, is that JACKIE might have shot him.
Tell me I'm crazy. This freaked me out more than even C-3po's silver leg.
I remember noticing C-3PO's silver leg as a kid in the early 80s. And most people assume the JFK convertible was a 4-seater. I don't think that is all that unusual.
There's a lot of folks who don't remember these things including myself. As for the causes I leave that to others to speculate about or scoff over, but it's a thing that is actually happening to folks. I merely report my own experience and what others seem to believe.
My speculation is faulty memory, but I am notoriously boring.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:29:51 PM
It could be in that the effect is in having a vastly different memory from what reality currently presents to most. I would have to consult with my dad who is a serious world war II buff to know the context, but let me ask you this without googling: What color were Hitler's eyes?
The vast majority of the pictures I've seen of him were in black and white. But, my guess, without googling, is brown.
Quote from: Hoopla on July 05, 2017, 10:47:21 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 10:41:45 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on July 05, 2017, 09:51:22 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:41:35 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY)
The above is a link to a high quality version of the "Zapruder film" of JFK's assassination. Notice anything different? I remember a different angle and a 4 seater sedan not 6. The final headshot looks different to me as well.
There's a lot of material covering this ME on youtube. I remember when the big going theory was the driver shot him from several frames that might be construed as him turning back towards Kennedy with a "gun" that was too blurry to be sure of, but bare moments before the final shot. None of these frames exist anymore and the going theory, for a long time now apparently, is that JACKIE might have shot him.
Tell me I'm crazy. This freaked me out more than even C-3po's silver leg.
I remember noticing C-3PO's silver leg as a kid in the early 80s. And most people assume the JFK convertible was a 4-seater. I don't think that is all that unusual.
There's a lot of folks who don't remember these things including myself. As for the causes I leave that to others to speculate about or scoff over, but it's a thing that is actually happening to folks. I merely report my own experience and what others seem to believe.
My speculation is faulty memory, but I am notoriously boring.
My baseless assertion is that you must be native to this universe.
Betcha I'm right. :p
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 05, 2017, 11:46:22 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:29:51 PM
It could be in that the effect is in having a vastly different memory from what reality currently presents to most. I would have to consult with my dad who is a serious world war II buff to know the context, but let me ask you this without googling: What color were Hitler's eyes?
The vast majority of the pictures I've seen of him were in black and white. But, my guess, without googling, is brown.
That was my known fact, brown. But nope. Blue as the sky. Google him and look for a color pic. Or.. don't.
I remember darker eyes,
now they appear otherwise.
I remember quips about Hitler's "Master Race" being a bunch of hogwash because even his own eyes were brown. But... I assume it's just a large number of people getting the wrong idea from black and white photos.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 06, 2017, 05:07:28 AM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 05, 2017, 11:46:22 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:29:51 PM
It could be in that the effect is in having a vastly different memory from what reality currently presents to most. I would have to consult with my dad who is a serious world war II buff to know the context, but let me ask you this without googling: What color were Hitler's eyes?
The vast majority of the pictures I've seen of him were in black and white. But, my guess, without googling, is brown.
That was my known fact, brown. But nope. Blue as the sky. Google him and look for a color pic. Or.. don't.
I remember darker eyes,
now they appear otherwise.
I played the game fairly. I didn't google for color photos of him before I posted my reply. And, I didn't want to deprive you of an "I told you so" moment, in the event I guessed wrong.
However, in my case, I don't believe this counts as a Mandela Effect moment, as I never knew, thought I knew, discussed, cared about, or ever even thought about Hitler's eye color before reading and answering your post. Similarly, if I didn't know one of Frank Sinatra's nicknames was Ol' Blue Eyes, I would have guessed he had brown eyes too, if asked. The bottom line being that not knowing the nickname, I would not have known for certain, or really cared. (I doubt Frank ever gave a damn about my eye color either.)
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:41:35 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY)
The above is a link to a high quality version of the "Zapruder film" of JFK's assassination. Notice anything different? I remember a different angle and a 4 seater sedan not 6. The final headshot looks different to me as well.
There's a lot of material covering this ME on youtube. I remember when the big going theory was the driver shot him from several frames that might be construed as him turning back towards Kennedy with a "gun" that was too blurry to be sure of, but bare moments before the final shot. None of these frames exist anymore and the going theory, for a long time now apparently, is that JACKIE might have shot him.
Tell me I'm crazy. This freaked me out more than even C-3po's silver leg.
The only thing I noticed new is the bouquet of flowers flying though the air. I don't remember seeing that before.
I do/did know the car was equipped with two "jump seats," but I'm not really sure when I learned of it. I do know that contemporary media descriptions and reenactments of the assassination always placed John Connally as sitting in the front seat of the car, not on a fold-down jump seat in the back. But remember, this was in the days before the internet, and cheap and plentiful high-quality cameras. And, I doubt the press had access to the car for some time after the assassination.
I never noticed C-3PO's silver leg, but that doesn't really freak me out. When watching my favorite movies a second, third, etc. time, I almost always see things I didn't notice the first time around.
I do, however, clearly remember Obi-Wan Kenobi cutting an "insect-villain" in half with his light saber in the bar scene of the original movie. I believe that scene was cut from the movie within a month, or two, of the film's opening.
Aren't there like 3 or 4 different cuts of A New Hope though?
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 06, 2017, 05:07:28 AM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 05, 2017, 11:46:22 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 05, 2017, 07:29:51 PM
It could be in that the effect is in having a vastly different memory from what reality currently presents to most. I would have to consult with my dad who is a serious world war II buff to know the context, but let me ask you this without googling: What color were Hitler's eyes?
The vast majority of the pictures I've seen of him were in black and white. But, my guess, without googling, is brown.
That was my known fact, brown. But nope. Blue as the sky. Google him and look for a color pic. Or.. don't.
I remember darker eyes,
now they appear otherwise.
This is explainable by conflation with the irony that his hair wasn't blond, blond hair and blue eyes being 2 of the nazis' standards for aryan beauty and perfection.
Just for posterity
The Mandela Effect is just false memories + the sleeper effect.
The mechanism is that when you imagine something that happened in the past, at first, your brain can easily tell the difference between the real memory and the imagined scenario. But that imagined scenario gets stored much like a real memory does.
Over time, the "metadata" decays--it becomes harder to distinguish the real memory from the imagined one. The weaker a memory, the more vulnerable you are to being misled by false memories.
like
Do you remember how it rained during your prom?
imagine that
imagine it really hard, visualize it, tell me some details about it
10 years from now, you won't be so sure it didn't rain.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 06, 2017, 07:50:11 PM
Just for posterity
The Mandela Effect is just false memories + the sleeper effect.
The mechanism is that when you imagine something that happened in the past, at first, your brain can easily tell the difference between the real memory and the imagined scenario. But that imagined scenario gets stored much like a real memory does.
Over time, the "metadata" decays--it becomes harder to distinguish the real memory from the imagined one. The weaker a memory, the more vulnerable you are to being misled by false memories.
like
Do you remember how it rained during your prom?
imagine that
imagine it really hard, visualize it, tell me some details about it
10 years from now, you won't be so sure it didn't rain.
I'm now imagining it raining during my prom... I didn't even go to prom. :eek:
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 06, 2017, 03:47:23 PM
Aren't there like 3 or 4 different cuts of A New Hope though?
I don't really know.
I do know I saw the "insect-villain" scene in the original movie, in a theater, shortly after the movie was released under its original name. That would have been sometime in late spring/early summer of 1977.
I, and my sci-fi loving friends, were totally blown away by Star Wars. I never went to a theater to watch the same movie a second time, but for that one I made an exception. Again, I remember seeing the "insect-villain" scene. However, when Star Wars finally made it to TV, the "insect-villain" scene was gone, and I haven't seen it on the tube since.
I don't remember the time gaps between the original theater release, the TV premier, and the VCR release. (DVD's didn't exist yet.) And, I don't remember different versions being available for VCR, as is common today with movies on DVD.
I never threw away our old VCR player, and I may have an old VCR tape of Star Wars lying around in a box somewhere. Someday, if I get really, really bored, I might just dig that stuff out. If I have the VCR version, I might just hook up the old VCR player, and see if the "insect-villain" scene is on it. I don't clearly remember whether the scene in question was on VCR release version, or if it had been cut.
I was a giant star wars dork from the time I was old enough to have opinions, and while I did go to Jedi in the theaters, it's on a technicality, because I was still in my mom.
I have no memory of any "insect-villain" scene in any version I saw (original VHS release, TV release, remastered VHS, or Special Edition), or any mention of it in the volumes of trivia I consumed. I am going to spend some time googling now because you've got me curious, but in the spirit of the thread I wanted to state my recollection and bona fides for the record before fact checking myself.
I remember Obi-Wan cutting someone in half in the cantina but the only bug-like character I remember from ep.4 is Greedo, who appears later in the Cantina scene and is shot by Han Solo
The deleted scene in the cantina featured an insectoid that was different from the praying mantis creature, and the more humaniod one (If that was an insectoid.) that Han Solo shot. The deleted creature resembled a tall, upright-walking cockroach more than anything else. I think it was brownish-green (I'm not 100 % sure of this.) in color, and spoke with a buzzing sound like an insect.
After confronting Obi Wan and Luke, Obi Wan warned the insectoid off, and, of course, it didn't back down. Then, Obi Wan quickly cut it in half with his light saber, from top to bottom. The camera focused on a full frontal of the insectoid being split into two halves, with the two smoldering halves falling away on either side of the centerline where the creature had originally stood. It was quite graphic and memorable.
I did a Google search after my previous post, but I can't find any reference to the scene I have just described.
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 07, 2017, 06:05:55 AM
The deleted scene in the cantina featured an insectoid that was different from the praying mantis creature, and the more humaniod one (If that was an insectoid.) that Han Solo shot. The deleted creature resembled a tall, upright-walking cockroach more than anything else. I think it was brownish-green (I'm not 100 % sure of this.) in color, and spoke with a buzzing sound like an insect.
After confronting Obi Wan and Luke, Obi Wan warned the insectoid off, and, of course, it didn't back down. Then, Obi Wan quickly cut it in half with his light saber, from top to bottom. The camera focused on a full frontal of the insectoid being split into two halves, with the two smoldering halves falling away on either side of the centerline where the creature had originally stood. It was quite graphic and memorable.
I did a Google search after my previous post, but I can't find any reference to the scene I have just described.
I have zero memory of such a scene, or ever hearing of such a scene being cut. We should ask Suu.
Quote from: Hoopla on July 07, 2017, 01:42:03 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 07, 2017, 06:05:55 AM
The deleted scene in the cantina featured an insectoid that was different from the praying mantis creature, and the more humaniod one (If that was an insectoid.) that Han Solo shot. The deleted creature resembled a tall, upright-walking cockroach more than anything else. I think it was brownish-green (I'm not 100 % sure of this.) in color, and spoke with a buzzing sound like an insect.
After confronting Obi Wan and Luke, Obi Wan warned the insectoid off, and, of course, it didn't back down. Then, Obi Wan quickly cut it in half with his light saber, from top to bottom. The camera focused on a full frontal of the insectoid being split into two halves, with the two smoldering halves falling away on either side of the centerline where the creature had originally stood. It was quite graphic and memorable.
I did a Google search after my previous post, but I can't find any reference to the scene I have just described.
I have zero memory of such a scene, or ever hearing of such a scene being cut. We should ask Suu.
I admit, I must now question the validity of my memory. Given the staggering number of
Star Wars fanatics who have documented every minutia there is to be found concerning the franchise, it's more than odd that I seem to be the only one that remembers that scene.
Still, I can't think of any good reason why I would retain this kind of old, false memory. I don't remember any other movie, TV show, etc. that ever utilized the light saber prop other than the
Star Wars franchise. So, I believe it's unlikely I'm confusing a scene from another movie, etc. with the scene only I seem to remember in
Star Wars.
And, as far as simply "dreaming it up" goes, I very rarely have violent dreams. But, when I do have a violent dream, I clearly remember it, and can almost always relate it to some real, previous stressful situation in my life. And, most important, I am never simply a passive observer of someone else's fight in one of my rare violent dreams.
So ...
Okay! I can solve this one!
Here's a link to the original script: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html
QuoteA large, multiple-eyed Creature gives Luke a rough shove.
CREATURE
Negola dewaghi wooldugger?!?
The hideous freak is obviously drunk. Luke tries to ignore
the creature and turns back on his drink. A short, grubby
Human and an even smaller rodent-like beast join the
belligerent monstrosity.
HUMAN
He doesn't like you.
LUKE
I'm sorry.
HUMAN
I don't like you either.
The big creature is getting agitated and yells out some
unintelligible gibberish at the now rather nervous, young
adventurer.
HUMAN
Don't insult us. You just watch
yourself. We're wanted men. I have
the death sentence in twelve systems.
LUKE
I'll be careful than.
HUMAN
You'll be dead.
The rodent lets out a loud grunt and everything at the bar
moves away. Luke tries to remain cool but it isn't easy. His
three adversaries ready their weapons. Old Ben moves in behind
Luke.
BEN
This little one isn't worth the
effort. Come let me buy you
something...
A powerful blow from the unpleasant creature sends the young
would-be Jedi sailing across the room, crashing through tables
and breaking a large jug filled with a foul-looking liquid.
With a blood curdling shriek, the monster draws a wicked
chrome laser pistol from his belt and levels it at old Ben.
The bartender panics.
BARTENDER
No blasters! No blaster!
With astounding agility old Ben's laser sword sparks to life
and in a flash an arm lies on the floor. The rodent is cut
in two and the giant multiple-eyed creature lies doubled,
cut from chin to groin. Ben carefully and precisely turns
off his laser sword and replaces it on his utility belt.
Luke, shaking and totally amazed at the old man's abilities,
attempts to stand. The entire fight has lasted only a matter
of seconds. The cantina goes back to normal, although Ben is
given a respectable amount of room at the bar. Luke, rubbing
his bruised head, approaches the old man with new awe. Ben
points the the Wookiee.
The smaller critter was not in the scene as filmed, as evidenced by everyone else's memory but also this wookiepedia page http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cornelius_Evazan
QuoteEvazan wasn't named and was described as a "short, grubby-looking human" with a surprisingly deep voice. In his scene, he was accompanied by a many-eyed and a rodent-like alien—early incarnations of Ponda Baba and Kabe respectively—and when they picked a fight with Luke Skywalker, Baba tossed Skywalker aside, and Obi-Wan Kenobi sliced off Evazan's arm and cut Kabe and Baba in half, with Evazan retreating into the crowd without a word following the fight,[22] nearly identical to how the event played out in several revised fourth drafts of A New Hope.[23] In the final version of the film, however, Kabe didn't partake in the altercation, Baba only lost his arm, and it was instead Evazan who flung aside Skywalker and got slashed across the chest by Kenobi.[3] Upon closer examination of the sequence, however,[24] Evazan can be seen talking to Kabe before the scuffle,[3] indicating that the idea of them being allies may have lasted up to shooting.[24]
It's possible you read the script at some point and visualized the fight more or less as described and then conflated that with the real memory of the movie. I find it unlikely that you're correctly remembering an early cut that was revised before broader release, largely because this is what Kabe looks like: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kabe
Might also be thinking of this guy, whose mouth butt is somewhat reminiscent of a spider's fangs
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ponda_Baba
Thank you for all of the effort you have put into researching this scene. I now feel much better, as I am reassured that the scene was actually filmed, and was briefly shown during the movie's first theater run. I do find is odd that the scene isn't showing up on YouTube, like a lot of other deleted scenes, but again, I am now reassured that it was actually filmed, and was very quickly edited out of the movie. I suspect Lucas decided, on his own, that the scene was to violent for the children that were flocking to see the movie, as it would have already passed motion picture industry rating standards for it have been there in the first place.
Your guess concerning a possible source for my memory is reasonable. But, I have never read any Star Wars franchise scripts, and this is a memory that goes back forty years to 1977. And, there was no Internet back in 1977, and I doubt the original script was available to the general public in any format back in those days.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 08, 2017, 01:01:38 PM
With astounding agility old Ben's laser sword sparks to life
and in a flash an arm lies on the floor. The rodent is cut
in two and the giant multiple-eyed creature lies doubled,
cut from chin to groin. Ben carefully and precisely turns
off his laser sword and replaces it on his utility belt.
The above quote is significant. I don't remember the rodent creature being cut it two. But, I do clearly remember the "giant multiple-eyed creature."
This really did happen.
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 08, 2017, 01:56:01 PM
Might also be thinking of this guy, whose mouth butt is somewhat reminiscent of a spider's fangs
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ponda_Baba
Thank you for researching this, but that is not the creature I remember. And, the scene description on the wikia page does not match my memory of want happened.
As per my above post, I'm now reassured that the cantina scene did happen, pretty much, as I remember it.
You've convinced yourself of a lie, but it seems like a harmless one so you do you.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 08, 2017, 09:20:22 PM
You've convinced yourself of a lie, but it seems like a harmless one so you do you.
And thank you for not being the least bit judgmental of my recollection.
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 08, 2017, 10:14:15 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 08, 2017, 09:20:22 PM
You've convinced yourself of a lie, but it seems like a harmless one so you do you.
And thank you for not being the least bit judgmental of my recollection.
That's the whole thing about this "effect". Folks are SERIOUSLY arguing over these recollections. The total impact of the thing is much greater than just a description of the mechanisms of memory and its fallibility.
There are folks sincerely at odds over whether it's Oscar Meyer or the "current" name Oscar Mayer on their lunch meat or whether or not there was ever a hyphen in KitKat.
Where did Curious George's tail go?
I don't know. Was it Berenstien bears,
or Berenstain? The only thing more
insane than the glitch is the fights!
Quote from: Cramulus on July 06, 2017, 07:50:11 PM
Just for posterity
The Mandela Effect is just false memories + the sleeper effect.
The mechanism is that when you imagine something that happened in the past, at first, your brain can easily tell the difference between the real memory and the imagined scenario. But that imagined scenario gets stored much like a real memory does.
Over time, the "metadata" decays--it becomes harder to distinguish the real memory from the imagined one. The weaker a memory, the more vulnerable you are to being misled by false memories.
like
Do you remember how it rained during your prom?
imagine that
imagine it really hard, visualize it, tell me some details about it
10 years from now, you won't be so sure it didn't rain.
Sounds like a nice, tidy, and perfectly sensible explanation. But is it correct in being "just" that? Surely some of the reported differences are just this or even full blown psychosis in action, but in your guts and expanded awareness you're working on are you certain?
Folks are willing to fight over this stuff. The bible stuff alone is enough to cause some serious Strife indeed.
Mandela effect simply highlights one of the main problems with human memory. Unlike computer memory which is an actual thing and can losslessly store and retrieve data, human "memory" remembers practically nothing beyond a rough outline of vaguely accurate or utterly inaccurate crib notes, degrades like a motherfuckers over time and fills in the numerous blanks with totally made up bullshit every time it's accessed.
By the time you've remembered that hawt chick you saw the other night half a dozen times the chances are her hair is a different style and colour, her makeup is different and her clothes are different too. A year from now you'll find out she was actually a 40 year old fat guy.
Take it from me, if you don't write it down or take a photo then it probably never happened and it definitely never happened the way you recall it going down.
I suspect another cause of the "Mandela Effect" may be outright, willful ignorance. And, based upon my own observations, military personnel are especially susceptible to believing, and propagating, "facts" that can be easily disproved.
For example, I've heard the story, at least a hundred times, that the battleship USS New Jersey could fire shells that were the size (Size always specifically meaning the physical dimensions of the shell, not its weight.) of a car. And, I've heard this story from sailors who actually served on smaller ships, mostly destroyers, that steamed with the USS New Jersey in its task force. Those particular sailors typically told the story as follows:
"This is no shit, the shells the New Jersey fired were so big, (How big were they?) we could see them flying through the air right over our ship! The New Jersey could fire shells that were as big as a car!"
(Do you know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story? Well, a fairy tale begins with "Once upon a time," while a sea story begins with "This is no shit.")
Anyway, most of the time I let that story go in one ear, and out the other. But, every once in a while, I was told the story by some dumbass, redneck lifer, for whom I had developed a serious dislike. On those special occasions, my retort would usually go something like this:
"So, the New Jersey was equipped with 16 inch guns, right?" I would ask.
"Yeah, that's what I told you, Obscenity. It had nine of them," the lifer would proudly reply.
"And 16 inches is about like, this wide, right?" I would ask, while holding the tips of my index fingers about that far apart.
"Yeah, that's about right," the lifer would answer.
"And those shells were what, about five feet long?" I would then ask.
"Yeah, that's about right," the lifer would answer.
"So, 16 inches wide by five feet long. That's not even close to being the size of a car. That's more like the size of a little, six year old kid."
Upon hearing that, the lifer would, typically, just stand there with a dumbfounded look on his face.
Typically, the same people, who told the above story, also claimed the recoil from the firing of a full broadside was so powerful that it would push the ship 1,000 feet sideways through the water.
Now, I never believed the USS New Jersey could be thrust sideways anywhere near 1,000 feet when it fired a broadside, but I did believe it could be moved sideways by some noticeable distance. However, as I came to learn much, much later, not one bit of that story is true either! (When it fired a full broadside, the ship wasn't thrust sideways through the water at all!)
I could list many more examples of "willful ignorance" in the military, but I think most people will get the idea from my above recollections.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 10, 2017, 02:54:35 PM
Mandela effect simply highlights one of the main problems with human memory. Unlike computer memory which is an actual thing and can losslessly store and retrieve data, human "memory" remembers practically nothing beyond a rough outline of vaguely accurate or utterly inaccurate crib notes, degrades like a motherfuckers over time and fills in the numerous blanks with totally made up bullshit every time it's accessed.
By the time you've remembered that hawt chick you saw the other night half a dozen times the chances are her hair is a different style and colour, her makeup is different and her clothes are different too. A year from now you'll find out she was actually a 40 year old fat guy.
Take it from me, if you don't write it down or take a photo then it probably never happened and it definitely never happened the way you recall it going down.
Even those things are apparently unreliabe is what I take as the real sticking point in the whole Mandela thing. It's taking your fallible ass memory and causing you to doubt the usual crutches as reliable.
The obsessive:
"God I could swear my baby was wearing red shoes the day I took this picture."
*Mandela Effect*
"HOLY SHIT I'M SO SHOOK BRUH MY DAUGHTER WASN'T WEARING BLUE SHOES THAT DAY I FUCKING KNOW IT!!!!!"
Or the schizophrenic:
"Holy shit they're summoning demons and shredding the fabric of reality at CERN!!"
*Mandela Effect*
"Holy shit they're summoning demons and shredding the fabric of reality at CERN!!!"
The attention whore:
My baby is just so darn cute! Look at her in her new jammies! #nightynight #lovemybaby
*Mandela Effect*
Come see ALL NEW Mandelas! My baby used to be a boy!! #AreYouWoke #shook #NewMandelas
Just a note on a more recently noticed Mandela effect.
Ed McMahon never worked for Publishers Clearing House. I had to do some research on this one cuz I just couldn't believe it, but it's true. I have distinctive and very clear memories of the old commercials featuring him and Publishers Clearing House. There are more recent Mandela effects but this one was the most noteworthy and to my mind least able to be construed as a simple slip of the memory. LOTS of people remember him as an icon of the 80s and 90s.
And I find more really weird ones I'll post them here, but this one was so visceral it actually gave me a bit of a headache. It's worse than Hitler's blue eyes.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 08, 2019, 09:36:44 AM
Just a note on a more recently noticed Mandela effect.
Ed McMahon never worked for Publishers Clearing House. I had to do some research on this one cuz I just couldn't believe it, but it's true. I have distinctive and very clear memories of the old commercials featuring him and Publishers Clearing House. There are more recent Mandela effects but this one was the most noteworthy and to my mind least able to be construed as a simple slip of the memory. LOTS of people remember him as an icon of the 80s and 90s.
And I find more really weird ones I'll post them here, but this one was so visceral it actually gave me a bit of a headache. It's worse than Hitler's blue eyes.
At least that one makes sense. There was a competing company that nobody remembers the name of, and none of us were emotionally invested enough in the magazine subscription wars to notice the ads weren't for the same company.
In False Memory research, they call it the "sleeper effect"
Misinformation can create a false memory. Like if I said "Remember when the default forum theme was all pastels, titled 'Closet Homo in Key West'?" I've mislead you into imagining that totally fictional event.
At first, it's easy to distinguish the imaginary experience from your actual memory.
But over time, the mental little label decays. You stop being able to distinguish the imaginary experience from the memory. You assume the imaginary experience really happened. But that never happened.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 08, 2019, 05:41:11 PM
In False Memory research, they call it the "sleeper effect"
Misinformation can create a false memory. Like if I said "Remember when the default forum theme was all pastels, titled 'Closet Homo in Key West'?" I've mislead you into imagining that totally fictional event.
At first, it's easy to distinguish the imaginary experience from your actual memory.
But over time, the mental little label decays. You stop being able to distinguish the imaginary experience from the memory. You assume the imaginary experience really happened. But that never happened.
You son of a bitch.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 08, 2019, 05:41:11 PM
In False Memory research, they call it the "sleeper effect"
Misinformation can create a false memory. Like if I said "Remember when the default forum theme was all pastels, titled 'Closet Homo in Key West'?" I've mislead you into imagining that totally fictional event.
At first, it's easy to distinguish the imaginary experience from your actual memory.
But over time, the mental little label decays. You stop being able to distinguish the imaginary experience from the memory. You assume the imaginary experience really happened. But that never happened.
MY ENTIRE LIFE IS A LIE! :cry:
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 08, 2019, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 08, 2019, 09:36:44 AM
Just a note on a more recently noticed Mandela effect.
Ed McMahon never worked for Publishers Clearing House. I had to do some research on this one cuz I just couldn't believe it, but it's true. I have distinctive and very clear memories of the old commercials featuring him and Publishers Clearing House. There are more recent Mandela effects but this one was the most noteworthy and to my mind least able to be construed as a simple slip of the memory. LOTS of people remember him as an icon of the 80s and 90s.
And I find more really weird ones I'll post them here, but this one was so visceral it actually gave me a bit of a headache. It's worse than Hitler's blue eyes.
At least that one makes sense. There was a competing company that nobody remembers the name of, and none of us were emotionally invested enough in the magazine subscription wars to notice the ads weren't for the same company.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/11/21/the-curious-case-of-ed-mcmahon-and-the-publishers-clearing-house/#5d47d9d21b70
The company that he did work for was called American Family publishers. But he never left the studio to Ambush families with giant checks.
Thing is I have very clear memories of him doing exactly that. The memories are quite anomalous when compared to the current evidence before my senses. When I was a child I remember asking my dad if something like that could happen to us. I remember him explaining to me that you had to buy magazines for there to be a chance of it happening.
I will not abandon the solidity of these memories for some ethereal notion that they didn't happen and that I must have made them up. As far as I'm personally concerned the world changed. Why I don't know. How I don't know. I only know that there is discontinuity from a great many things collectively known as the Mandela effect, and that I'm not the only one experiencing this By far.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 08, 2019, 05:41:11 PM
In False Memory research, they call it the "sleeper effect"
Misinformation can create a false memory. Like if I said "Remember when the default forum theme was all pastels, titled 'Closet Homo in Key West'?" I've mislead you into imagining that totally fictional event.
At first, it's easy to distinguish the imaginary experience from your actual memory.
But over time, the mental little label decays. You stop being able to distinguish the imaginary experience from the memory. You assume the imaginary experience really happened. But that never happened.
I'm sure that what you described does happen of course. My only argument is a matter of scale as relates to the Mandela effect. There are probably millions of people that have experienced this discontinuity of memory. How could they all remember the same difference? How is it that they could all have been exposed to and adopted the same false memory ? I don't think that this sleeper effect you speak of accounts for the sheer scale of the phenomenon. I would like to believe it. That would be more comfortable To just chalk it up to my own fallibility.
But It's Not Just Me
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2019, 12:02:35 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on July 08, 2019, 05:41:11 PM
In False Memory research, they call it the "sleeper effect"
Misinformation can create a false memory. Like if I said "Remember when the default forum theme was all pastels, titled 'Closet Homo in Key West'?" I've mislead you into imagining that totally fictional event.
At first, it's easy to distinguish the imaginary experience from your actual memory.
But over time, the mental little label decays. You stop being able to distinguish the imaginary experience from the memory. You assume the imaginary experience really happened. But that never happened.
MY ENTIRE LIFE IS A LIE! :cry:
Don't feel bad. It may just be that everyone's entire life is a lie.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 09, 2019, 12:26:37 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 08, 2019, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 08, 2019, 09:36:44 AM
Just a note on a more recently noticed Mandela effect.
Ed McMahon never worked for Publishers Clearing House. I had to do some research on this one cuz I just couldn't believe it, but it's true. I have distinctive and very clear memories of the old commercials featuring him and Publishers Clearing House. There are more recent Mandela effects but this one was the most noteworthy and to my mind least able to be construed as a simple slip of the memory. LOTS of people remember him as an icon of the 80s and 90s.
And I find more really weird ones I'll post them here, but this one was so visceral it actually gave me a bit of a headache. It's worse than Hitler's blue eyes.
At least that one makes sense. There was a competing company that nobody remembers the name of, and none of us were emotionally invested enough in the magazine subscription wars to notice the ads weren't for the same company.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/11/21/the-curious-case-of-ed-mcmahon-and-the-publishers-clearing-house/#5d47d9d21b70
The company that he did work for was called American Family publishers. But he never left the studio to Ambush families with giant checks.
Thing is I have very clear memories of him doing exactly that. The memories are quite anomalous when compared to the current evidence before my senses. When I was a child I remember asking my dad if something like that could happen to us. I remember him explaining to me that you had to buy magazines for there to be a chance of it happening.
I will not abandon the solidity of these memories for some ethereal notion that they didn't happen and that I must have made them up. As far as I'm personally concerned the world changed. Why I don't know. How I don't know. I only know that there is discontinuity from a great many things collectively known as the Mandela effect, and that I'm not the only one experiencing this By far.
As do I. I feel as the current narrative is the incorrect one.
I reject out of hand the notion that weird shit doesn't happen. Not necessarily because it does in some objective sense actually happen, but because everything is a lie anyway so who cares if you decide to live in the more interesting version of reality? I know for a fact that Ed McMahon did actually present big ridiculous sweepstakes checks to people, because I remember that and I remember always imagining him coming to my house in that stupid PCH van. Just because "that never happened" doesn't mean it didn't happen. The past is nothing but the way people remember it.
You could say that kind of logic is dangerous because of things like Holocaust denialism, and you'd be right, but that only gives people that much more incentive to consciously and intentionally keep certain memories alive and participate in the collective and ongoing definition of history. The Holocaust definitely did happen, but if we allow enough people to forget or misinterpret it then there is no functional value to that fact and it will be just as if it really didn't happen anyway.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 02:48:56 AM
I reject out of hand the notion that weird shit doesn't happen. Not necessarily because it does in some objective sense actually happen, but because everything is a lie anyway so who cares if you decide to live in the more interesting version of reality? I know for a fact that Ed McMahon did actually present big ridiculous sweepstakes checks to people, because I remember that and I remember always imagining him coming to my house in that stupid PCH van. Just because "that never happened" doesn't mean it didn't happen. The past is nothing but the way people remember it.
You could say that kind of logic is dangerous because of things like Holocaust denialism, and you'd be right, but that only gives people that much more incentive to consciously and intentionally keep certain memories alive and participate in the collective and ongoing definition of history. The Holocaust definitely did happen, but if we allow enough people to forget or misinterpret it then there is no functional value to that fact and it will be just as if it really didn't happen anyway.
I don't believe anything anyone has said since Lemmy died.
I feel as if I am on solid ground on this one. Everything has been cock & repost ever since.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2019, 02:53:45 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 02:48:56 AM
I reject out of hand the notion that weird shit doesn't happen. Not necessarily because it does in some objective sense actually happen, but because everything is a lie anyway so who cares if you decide to live in the more interesting version of reality? I know for a fact that Ed McMahon did actually present big ridiculous sweepstakes checks to people, because I remember that and I remember always imagining him coming to my house in that stupid PCH van. Just because "that never happened" doesn't mean it didn't happen. The past is nothing but the way people remember it.
You could say that kind of logic is dangerous because of things like Holocaust denialism, and you'd be right, but that only gives people that much more incentive to consciously and intentionally keep certain memories alive and participate in the collective and ongoing definition of history. The Holocaust definitely did happen, but if we allow enough people to forget or misinterpret it then there is no functional value to that fact and it will be just as if it really didn't happen anyway.
I don't believe anything anyone has said since Lemmy died.
I feel as if I am on solid ground on this one. Everything has been cock & repost ever since.
You're on solid ground except the expiration date was when Bowie died.
Buddy Holly. A guy wrote a song about it.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 02:58:50 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2019, 02:53:45 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 02:48:56 AM
I reject out of hand the notion that weird shit doesn't happen. Not necessarily because it does in some objective sense actually happen, but because everything is a lie anyway so who cares if you decide to live in the more interesting version of reality? I know for a fact that Ed McMahon did actually present big ridiculous sweepstakes checks to people, because I remember that and I remember always imagining him coming to my house in that stupid PCH van. Just because "that never happened" doesn't mean it didn't happen. The past is nothing but the way people remember it.
You could say that kind of logic is dangerous because of things like Holocaust denialism, and you'd be right, but that only gives people that much more incentive to consciously and intentionally keep certain memories alive and participate in the collective and ongoing definition of history. The Holocaust definitely did happen, but if we allow enough people to forget or misinterpret it then there is no functional value to that fact and it will be just as if it really didn't happen anyway.
I don't believe anything anyone has said since Lemmy died.
I feel as if I am on solid ground on this one. Everything has been cock & repost ever since.
You're on solid ground except the expiration date was when Bowie died.
You act like they weren't the same person or something.
At least we still have Justin Timberlake.
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 09, 2019, 03:09:24 AM
Buddy Holly. A guy wrote a song about it.
Buddy Holly was okay, but he wasn't in the same league as the holy trinity of Lemmy, Bowie, and Freddie.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2019, 03:29:51 AM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 09, 2019, 03:09:24 AM
Buddy Holly. A guy wrote a song about it.
Buddy Holly was okay, but he wasn't in the same league as the holy trinity of Lemmy, Bowie, and Freddie.
Buddy Holly was just okay?! Blasphemy! Blasphemy I say!
Buddy Holly was the musical equivalent of store brand diapers.
https://www.nme.com/blogs/music-mandela-effects-question-everything-2460038
Since the thread is apparently now taking a musical turn I'll just leave this here. I'm not much of a musical aficionado, but I distinctly at least remember the one from Queen. We Are the Champions now ends just a bit early.
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 04:11:53 AM
Buddy Holly was the musical equivalent of store brand diapers.
Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is A Living God. And, I'm here today to testify that I have witnessed, with mine own eyes, the worshipers gathered in reverent silence on The Holy Ground where Jim Morrison is buried, his discarded body thus further sanctifying that already sacred place.
But, to denigrate the memory of Buddy Holly is not only blasphemy, it is heresy!
May The True Gods of Rock 'N' Roll™, both living and ascended, curse you to listen to The Bay City Rollers, Gary Puckett & the Union Gap, and Tommy James and the Shondells for the rest of your natural life!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2019, 12:52:20 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 09, 2019, 12:26:37 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 08, 2019, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 08, 2019, 09:36:44 AM
Just a note on a more recently noticed Mandela effect.
Ed McMahon never worked for Publishers Clearing House. I had to do some research on this one cuz I just couldn't believe it, but it's true. I have distinctive and very clear memories of the old commercials featuring him and Publishers Clearing House. There are more recent Mandela effects but this one was the most noteworthy and to my mind least able to be construed as a simple slip of the memory. LOTS of people remember him as an icon of the 80s and 90s.
And I find more really weird ones I'll post them here, but this one was so visceral it actually gave me a bit of a headache. It's worse than Hitler's blue eyes.
At least that one makes sense. There was a competing company that nobody remembers the name of, and none of us were emotionally invested enough in the magazine subscription wars to notice the ads weren't for the same company.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/11/21/the-curious-case-of-ed-mcmahon-and-the-publishers-clearing-house/#5d47d9d21b70
The company that he did work for was called American Family publishers. But he never left the studio to Ambush families with giant checks.
Thing is I have very clear memories of him doing exactly that. The memories are quite anomalous when compared to the current evidence before my senses. When I was a child I remember asking my dad if something like that could happen to us. I remember him explaining to me that you had to buy magazines for there to be a chance of it happening.
I will not abandon the solidity of these memories for some ethereal notion that they didn't happen and that I must have made them up. As far as I'm personally concerned the world changed. Why I don't know. How I don't know. I only know that there is discontinuity from a great many things collectively known as the Mandela effect, and that I'm not the only one experiencing this By far.
As do I. I feel as the current narrative is the incorrect one.
And it's retroactive back in time quite a ways considering the biblical ones go back to at least the translation of the King James version of the Bible. I really wish I could read Isaiah in the original Hebrew just to confirm some things..
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 04:11:53 AM
Buddy Holly was the musical equivalent of store brand diapers.
And THAT, you ingrates, is why we call Vex
The Chairman of the Board. :lol:
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 09, 2019, 04:26:00 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2019, 12:52:20 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 09, 2019, 12:26:37 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 08, 2019, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 08, 2019, 09:36:44 AM
Just a note on a more recently noticed Mandela effect.
Ed McMahon never worked for Publishers Clearing House. I had to do some research on this one cuz I just couldn't believe it, but it's true. I have distinctive and very clear memories of the old commercials featuring him and Publishers Clearing House. There are more recent Mandela effects but this one was the most noteworthy and to my mind least able to be construed as a simple slip of the memory. LOTS of people remember him as an icon of the 80s and 90s.
And I find more really weird ones I'll post them here, but this one was so visceral it actually gave me a bit of a headache. It's worse than Hitler's blue eyes.
At least that one makes sense. There was a competing company that nobody remembers the name of, and none of us were emotionally invested enough in the magazine subscription wars to notice the ads weren't for the same company.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/11/21/the-curious-case-of-ed-mcmahon-and-the-publishers-clearing-house/#5d47d9d21b70
The company that he did work for was called American Family publishers. But he never left the studio to Ambush families with giant checks.
Thing is I have very clear memories of him doing exactly that. The memories are quite anomalous when compared to the current evidence before my senses. When I was a child I remember asking my dad if something like that could happen to us. I remember him explaining to me that you had to buy magazines for there to be a chance of it happening.
I will not abandon the solidity of these memories for some ethereal notion that they didn't happen and that I must have made them up. As far as I'm personally concerned the world changed. Why I don't know. How I don't know. I only know that there is discontinuity from a great many things collectively known as the Mandela effect, and that I'm not the only one experiencing this By far.
As do I. I feel as the current narrative is the incorrect one.
And it's retroactive back in time quite a ways considering the biblical ones go back to at least the translation of the King James version of the Bible. I really wish I could read Isaiah in the original Hebrew just to confirm some things..
Pretty sure that's a bad idea. We spent 2000 years sanitizing bronze age horror stories, and you want to read them?
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 09, 2019, 04:25:35 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 04:11:53 AM
Buddy Holly was the musical equivalent of store brand diapers.
Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is A Living God. And, I'm here today to testify that I have witnessed, with mine own eyes, the worshipers gathered in reverent silence on The Holy Ground where Jim Morrison is buried, his discarded body thus further sanctifying that already sacred place.
But, to denigrate the memory of Buddy Holly is not only blasphemy, it is heresy!
May The True Gods of Rock 'N' Roll™, both living and ascended, curse you to listen to The Bay City Rollers, Gary Puckett & the Union Gap, and Tommy James and the Shondells for the rest of your natural life!
Wait. What's wrong with the Bay City Rollers?
They're all about Saturday Night.
To the OP:
Like, idk, memory isnt a computer-like, well-done archiving sort of deal, we remember not what happened, but what we can, corrupted by the most efficient way to remember it... as time passes, one constructs a narrative, which loses a lot of the details, specially the ones that contradict the main narrative, and the narrative itself is built around what is convenient, useful or what we desire.
And beyond the natural "disfunction" of memory, then theres deliberate techniques to alter it... hypnosis to create false memories... torturing someone until they believe their own false confessions... bombarding an audience with enough disinformation and propaganda until its the criterion of historical truth...
(https://i.imgur.com/hkOFUV9.jpg)
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 09, 2019, 04:25:35 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 04:11:53 AM
Buddy Holly was the musical equivalent of store brand diapers.
Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is A Living God. And, I'm here today to testify that I have witnessed, with mine own eyes, the worshipers gathered in reverent silence on The Holy Ground where Jim Morrison is buried, his discarded body thus further sanctifying that already sacred place.
But, to denigrate the memory of Buddy Holly is not only blasphemy, it is heresy!
May The True Gods of Rock 'N' Roll™, both living and ascended, curse you to listen to The Bay City Rollers, Gary Puckett & the Union Gap, and Tommy James and the Shondells for the rest of your natural life!
Dude, Crimson & Clover rocks
Tremolo ALL the vocals!
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 09, 2017, 04:14:00 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on July 06, 2017, 07:50:11 PM
Just for posterity
The Mandela Effect is just false memories + the sleeper effect.
The mechanism is that when you imagine something that happened in the past, at first, your brain can easily tell the difference between the real memory and the imagined scenario. But that imagined scenario gets stored much like a real memory does.
Over time, the "metadata" decays--it becomes harder to distinguish the real memory from the imagined one. The weaker a memory, the more vulnerable you are to being misled by false memories.
like
Do you remember how it rained during your prom?
imagine that
imagine it really hard, visualize it, tell me some details about it
10 years from now, you won't be so sure it didn't rain.
Sounds like a nice, tidy, and perfectly sensible explanation. But is it correct in being "just" that? Surely some of the reported differences are just this or even full blown psychosis in action, but in your guts and expanded awareness you're working on are you certain?
Folks are willing to fight over this stuff. The bible stuff alone is enough to cause some serious Strife indeed.
The reason the False Memory effect is so pervasive about events that happened 10+ years ago is because the mind is so suggestible. All it takes to generate a false memory is a leading question.
This is the reason that there was a whole "Satanic Ritual Abuse" scare in the 90s.. therapists at the time were big into "recovered memories", and would ask children leading questions at what they suspected happened. "Did you ever see satanists in the woods?" -- "Did the satanists do anything to you?" Kids think about it, and gosh, they do remember something now that you mention it! Lots of people went to jail over this, the head of the american psychological association (Elizabeth Loftus) proved that these forms of testimony (based on children's memory recovery) are unreliable at best, and basically had to flee to Australia because she got a lot of innocent people (assumed to be satanic child abusers) out of jail. And you know how we hate that.
This is why leading questions are not allowed in court. If you ask somebody "Was there a big red stop sign at the intersection?" they will say yes, like, 30-40% of the time, even if there was no stop sign. If you don't lead with that image, and just ask them to describe the intersection, very few people report a stop sign.
Every article I've seen about the Mandella effect asks leading questions. They will say "Remember the Berenstein bears? Turns out it's always been spelled Berenstain." They lead with the false information first, and suddenly, you can't distinguish the weak memory of how that word is spelled and the image you just visualized.
In my gut, do I think this explains all of the Mandella effect phenomenon? Yes, actually. I haven't seen a single instance of the Mandella effect that can't be explained via false memory, misinformation, or the simple conflation of two elements you barely remember. Not to mention, lots of trolls have generated images that make it more confusing.
Honestly, what do you think is more likely? That people have trouble remembering forgettable media and news items from 20 years ago, or that we're in a bizarro universe where history changes, but only about super minor things like Sinbad's acting career?
I think it's much more likely that memory is fallible and is not an exact record.
Quote from: Hoopla! on July 09, 2019, 06:26:27 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 09, 2019, 04:25:35 AM
Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on July 09, 2019, 04:11:53 AM
Buddy Holly was the musical equivalent of store brand diapers.
Nobel laureate Bob Dylan is A Living God. And, I'm here today to testify that I have witnessed, with mine own eyes, the worshipers gathered in reverent silence on The Holy Ground where Jim Morrison is buried, his discarded body thus further sanctifying that already sacred place.
But, to denigrate the memory of Buddy Holly is not only blasphemy, it is heresy!
May The True Gods of Rock 'N' Roll™, both living and ascended, curse you to listen to The Bay City Rollers, Gary Puckett & the Union Gap, and Tommy James and the Shondells for the rest of your natural life!
Dude, Crimson & Clover rocks
I've already heard more than enough. Do you really want to listen to it for the rest of your natural life?
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 09, 2019, 08:28:47 PM
I've already heard more than enough. Do you really want to listen to it for the rest of your natural life?
You mean, over and over?
Quote from: LMNO on July 09, 2019, 08:34:57 PM
Quote from: Brother Mythos on July 09, 2019, 08:28:47 PM
I've already heard more than enough. Do you really want to listen to it for the rest of your natural life?
You mean, over and over?
Exactly.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 09, 2019, 07:50:35 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 09, 2017, 04:14:00 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on July 06, 2017, 07:50:11 PM
Just for posterity
The Mandela Effect is just false memories + the sleeper effect.
The mechanism is that when you imagine something that happened in the past, at first, your brain can easily tell the difference between the real memory and the imagined scenario. But that imagined scenario gets stored much like a real memory does.
Over time, the "metadata" decays--it becomes harder to distinguish the real memory from the imagined one. The weaker a memory, the more vulnerable you are to being misled by false memories.
like
Do you remember how it rained during your prom?
imagine that
imagine it really hard, visualize it, tell me some details about it
10 years from now, you won't be so sure it didn't rain.
Sounds like a nice, tidy, and perfectly sensible explanation. But is it correct in being "just" that? Surely some of the reported differences are just this or even full blown psychosis in action, but in your guts and expanded awareness you're working on are you certain?
Folks are willing to fight over this stuff. The bible stuff alone is enough to cause some serious Strife indeed.
The reason the False Memory effect is so pervasive about events that happened 10+ years ago is because the mind is so suggestible. All it takes to generate a false memory is a leading question.
This is the reason that there was a whole "Satanic Ritual Abuse" scare in the 90s.. therapists at the time were big into "recovered memories", and would ask children leading questions at what they suspected happened. "Did you ever see satanists in the woods?" -- "Did the satanists do anything to you?" Kids think about it, and gosh, they do remember something now that you mention it! Lots of people went to jail over this, the head of the american psychological association (Elizabeth Loftus) proved that these forms of testimony (based on children's memory recovery) are unreliable at best, and basically had to flee to Australia because she got a lot of innocent people (assumed to be satanic child abusers) out of jail. And you know how we hate that.
This is why leading questions are not allowed in court. If you ask somebody "Was there a big red stop sign at the intersection?" they will say yes, like, 30-40% of the time, even if there was no stop sign. If you don't lead with that image, and just ask them to describe the intersection, very few people report a stop sign.
Every article I've seen about the Mandella effect asks leading questions. They will say "Remember the Berenstein bears? Turns out it's always been spelled Berenstain." They lead with the false information first, and suddenly, you can't distinguish the weak memory of how that word is spelled and the image you just visualized.
In my gut, do I think this explains all of the Mandella effect phenomenon? Yes, actually. I haven't seen a single instance of the Mandella effect that can't be explained via false memory, misinformation, or the simple conflation of two elements you barely remember. Not to mention, lots of trolls have generated images that make it more confusing.
Honestly, what do you think is more likely? That people have trouble remembering forgettable media and news items from 20 years ago, or that we're in a bizarro universe where history changes, but only about super minor things like Sinbad's acting career?
I think it's much more likely that memory is fallible and is not an exact record.
The most likely answer is not always the truth. I do not have an infallible memory. I am not impervious to suggestion. I do remember a great many familiar things differently than they are now.
Were I alone in this I would chalk it up to something not unlike what you described Cramulus. Thing is I'm not alone in this. I had never even heard of the Mandela effect until it was brought to my attention buy some friends, but I did notice certain changes Before they did.
One that stands out particularly clearly in my mind is Froot Loops. I always knew it as Fruit Loops. I remember thinking to myself that it was a little odd but perhaps they had changed it for marketing purposes. I found out later that this was one of the better known Mandela effects. When I was last hospitalized in 2018 the breakfast menu said Fruit Loops on it instead of the proper name that it has always had... Apparently.
Whoever put the menu together spelled all the other cereal names correctly, but not this one. were it not for my personal experiences and the notoriety of that particular Mandela effect I would have written it off as a simple typo, but I believe it wasn't. I believe whoever put the menu together spelled correctly something that they remember, but the name is no longer spelled that way and never has been spelled any other way than Froot Loops.
I don't expect my personal testimony to sway your opinion. I give it to highlight the fact that at least for me the 'most likely reason' that you proposed does not jive with my personal experience and the experiences of very large numbers of other people.
Perhaps I'm not being rational, not using Occam's razor properly or something. But what if, and I'm just saying what if, the cosmos is in fact irrational and full of mysterious things and events? It certainly seems that way to me. The Mandela effect isn't even the weirdest thing I've experienced... Incidentally I don't care to talk about the weirdest thing I've experienced, but in my world rational reductionism is folly. There's too much that is not understood About the cosmos and the world that we live in.
There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophies, or whatever.
There's a particularly batshit bonkers take on Mandela that is entirely rational anyway, assuming you buy the many-worlds interpretation and believe that we inhabit an exceedingly unlikely universe.
Goes something like, given that the universe is essentially deterministic, and given that there is no such thing as a singular, individual object anywhere at the quantum level (e.g. particles are fields) it stands to reason that ANY particularly improbable event will in turn have particularly improbable effects, and therefore that if we have an improbable past event, improbable future events with no obvious causal correlation may nevertheless be instigated by it. In other words, what seems irrational and implausible might be more likely to happen just because something else really weird happened precisely once before. If you follow that idea to it's logical conclusion, over time weird shit gets more common. If weird shit is common, weird gets weirder (since there are more opportunities for the truly weird to happen).
It doesn't say whether the universe or the observers inside it changed, it just provides a mechanism of action. Either way, it's effectively rational, just bonkers. I don't feel like shitting on rationality is the right move. It has its uses, and rationality is a couple steps from rationalization. Think long and hard enough and you can explain ANYTHING in rational terms, including all the weirdness your heart could desire.
https://mandelaeffect.com/billy-grahams-funeral-on-tv/
Stumbled across this one and thought it was rather interesting. Apparently this particular Mandela effect where in Billy Graham died way, way before 2018 is extremely prevalent. Maybe more than Mandela's death. Personally I can't speak to this one. Until I started researching I didn't even know Billy Graham was dead.
Quote
I've actually argued with a friend because she was 100% certain that Billy Graham had died. She, too, remembered the funeral on TV. It took Wikipedia to prove that we both had odd, completely identical memories... that never happened.
Clearly all these people must just be victims of false memory and suggestion.
:lulz: :lulz: ... :lulz: