The real reason why no-one knows if Qadaffi has fled Libya or not yet...
...is because no-one knows how to spell his fucking name correctly.
Right now there is a totally unaware passport control officer somewhere saying "I hope your enjoy your visit to our country, Mr. Kaddafiye."
Incidentally, before the rumours of fleeing began, it was said Libya was paying pro-regime mercenaries around $500/day, which is significantly higher than in Egypt. Nevertheless, the Libyan Air Force refused to bomb protestors, and protestors have apparently captured a tank. And Benghazi tribes are threatening to cut off Libyan oil from reaching the West unless the violence stops.
All of this makes it my favourite North African Revolution so far, especially since the protestors may end up doing a victory lap around a burnt down palace in a tank for the world media to see.
:lulz: I like that image.
Also, according to CNN, helicopter gunships have been firing into the crowds and Malta now reports that two pilots have defected because they were ordered to fire on civilians.
Wait, when did Libya go tits up?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 21, 2011, 07:48:10 PM
Wait, when did Libya go tits up?
:lulz:
Damn hard to keep up, isn't it?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 21, 2011, 07:48:10 PM
Wait, when did Libya go tits up?
You cannot take cat naps this century... didn't you get the memo?
Rumours of trouble have been circulating since Tunisia went all awesome, and got more credible during the Egypt revolution. Things really took off a few nights ago though, it seems. It's hard to say with any certainty though, as media access is far more heavily regulated in Libya than Egypt.
Nevertheless, it seems 200+ people have died in the last couple of days, the Army are in hiding and police stations are getting burned to the ground.
I'm surprised Erik Prince hasn't offered his services to Qadaffi yet. AFAIK he is trying to create a "new" and totally unrelated to Blackwater mercenary company on the continent. Then again, maybe we just haven't heard it yet.
Okay, Cain, give us a recap. Which "ME" countries are in revolt? I've completely lost track.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 21, 2011, 07:49:55 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 21, 2011, 07:48:10 PM
Wait, when did Libya go tits up?
:lulz:
Damn hard to keep up, isn't it?
I took most of the weekend off from the interbutts, and I'm totally lost.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 21, 2011, 07:53:50 PM
Okay, Cain, give us a recap. Which "ME" countries are in revolt? I've completely lost track.
Officially
Egypt - revolted/still revolting
Tunisia - revolted
Libya - revolting
Yemen - protests, could be revolts
Bahrain - revolting
Syria - early signs of protests, media blackouts since
Jordan - protests just turned violent, courtesy of government goons
Iran - some protests
Algeria - rallies and protests
Morocco - protests just turned violent yesterday
Qatar - there has been some organizing for protests, but nothing major seems to be happening just yet.
Turkey is pretty stable, as you would expect, and so are Saudi Arabia (where deposed dictators will probably outnumber the general population soon) and UAE.
In addition to Cains list;
DJIBOUTI - Protesters in Djibouti are angry about the economy. The country is home to Camp Lemonnier, the only U.S. military base on the African continent. Protesters have called for President Ismail Omar Guelleh - whose family has ruled the country since its independence from France in 1977 - to step down ahead of the elections scheduled in April.
JORDAN - Jordan's economy is struggling as commodity prices rise and youth unemployment is high, as it is in Egypt. Its king has called for swift reform.
KUWAIT - Protests are relatively new, beginning over the weekend. Demonstrators, who want greater rights for longtime residents who are not citizens, attacked security forces late last week.
SUDAN - Protesters are demanding an end to National Congress Party rule and government-imposed price increases. A "Day of Rage" was reportedly organized on Facebook against the government, but it failed to materialize. Human Rights Watch says authorities used "excessive force" during largely peaceful protests on January 30 and 31 in Khartoum and other northern cities. Witnesses said that several people were arrested, including 20 who remain missing.
Whoops, he had Jordan.
Libyan diplomats in Sweden have resigned and abused the English language, calling the government violence in the country "genocide".
http://www.thelocal.se/32178/20110221/
I seem to recall one of the talking heads mentioning there were some minor rumblings in Iraq as well. Minor as in probably less significant than what's happening in Wisconsin.
In Iraq they tend to protest with belts full of Semtex.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 21, 2011, 08:08:37 PM
I seem to recall one of the talking heads mentioning there were some minor rumblings in Iraq as well. Minor as in probably less significant than what's happening in Wisconsin.
IRAQ - Unlike other nations, protests here have not targeted the government. Demonstrators are enraged by corruption, the quality of basic services and high unemployment. Most recently, on Sunday, A 17-year-old boy died and 39 people were injured were injured as demonstrators battled Kurdish security forces in Sulaimaniya in northern Iraq, officials said. CNN's Reza Sayah reports from Islamabad, Pakistan, on the violence. Masked gunmen attacked and burned an independent television station in Iraq's Kurdistan region Sunday, wounding a guard, police officials and the broadcast company said.
Forgot about the Jasmine Revolution in China.
....So when is the best time to tell these people that the democracy they want so bad doesn't work?
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:20:07 PM
....So when is the best time to tell these people that the democracy they want so bad doesn't work?
Just because we're doing it wrong doesn't mean they will.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 21, 2011, 11:27:40 PM
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:20:07 PM
....So when is the best time to tell these people that the democracy they want so bad doesn't work?
Just because we're doing it wrong doesn't mean they will.
I think the question is...has anyone actually ever done it right?
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:35:03 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 21, 2011, 11:27:40 PM
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:20:07 PM
....So when is the best time to tell these people that the democracy they want so bad doesn't work?
Just because we're doing it wrong doesn't mean they will.
I think the question is...has anyone actually ever done it right?
Damn good question.
I've always liked qadaffi, sure he was a rabid, insane dictator but his united Africa stuff chilled the west to the bone.
If he's gone, I don't see Libya improving....
Just cause Democracy is shitty doesn't mean it can't be a step forward.
Of course, it can be a step back too, we'll see.
Quote from: Faust on February 21, 2011, 11:37:20 PM
I've always liked qadaffi, sure he was a rabid, insane dictator but his united Africa stuff chilled the west to the bone.
If he's gone, I don't see Libya improving....
:lulz:
Reagan didn't think too much of him. Conversely, it seems Israel wanted to keep him around because they knew he had limits to just how crazy he was, as opposed to some of his higher ups.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 21, 2011, 11:38:24 PM
Just cause Democracy is shitty doesn't mean it can't be a step forward.
Of course, it can be a step back too, we'll see.
Please, even Rome eventually went, "Fuck this" and went empire.
So did the Star Wars Galaxy, for that matter.
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:45:34 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 21, 2011, 11:38:24 PM
Just cause Democracy is shitty doesn't mean it can't be a step forward.
Of course, it can be a step back too, we'll see.
Please, even Rome eventually went, "Fuck this" and went empire.
So did the Star Wars Galaxy, for that matter.
Well, they've earned their chance to fuck it all up.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 21, 2011, 11:48:12 PM
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:45:34 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 21, 2011, 11:38:24 PM
Just cause Democracy is shitty doesn't mean it can't be a step forward.
Of course, it can be a step back too, we'll see.
Please, even Rome eventually went, "Fuck this" and went empire.
So did the Star Wars Galaxy, for that matter.
Well, they've earned their chance to fuck it all up.
The Roman Empire had the right idea, just the leaders were quack jobs.
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:45:34 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 21, 2011, 11:38:24 PM
Just cause Democracy is shitty doesn't mean it can't be a step forward.
Of course, it can be a step back too, we'll see.
Please, even Rome eventually went, "Fuck this" and went empire.
So did the Star Wars Galaxy, for that matter.
Only if you consider the prequels cannon.
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:53:55 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 21, 2011, 11:48:12 PM
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:45:34 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 21, 2011, 11:38:24 PM
Just cause Democracy is shitty doesn't mean it can't be a step forward.
Of course, it can be a step back too, we'll see.
Please, even Rome eventually went, "Fuck this" and went empire.
So did the Star Wars Galaxy, for that matter.
Well, they've earned their chance to fuck it all up.
The Roman Empire had the right idea, just the leaders were quack jobs.
That always happens in an autocracy, sooner or later. Usually sooner.
Only took Rome two tries.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on February 22, 2011, 12:58:30 AM
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:45:34 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 21, 2011, 11:38:24 PM
Just cause Democracy is shitty doesn't mean it can't be a step forward.
Of course, it can be a step back too, we'll see.
Please, even Rome eventually went, "Fuck this" and went empire.
So did the Star Wars Galaxy, for that matter.
Only if you consider the prequels cannon.
Nah, it was there in the originals too. Not to mention all the XU stuff.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on February 22, 2011, 12:58:30 AM
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 21, 2011, 11:45:34 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 21, 2011, 11:38:24 PM
Just cause Democracy is shitty doesn't mean it can't be a step forward.
Of course, it can be a step back too, we'll see.
Please, even Rome eventually went, "Fuck this" and went empire.
So did the Star Wars Galaxy, for that matter.
Only if you consider the prequels cannon.
The Old Republic was mentioned in the very first movie.
...and anything written by George Lucas is considered canon, whether you want it to be or not.
-Suu
Bought the same damn movie tickets as you. He got what he wanted.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 21, 2011, 09:08:33 PM
Forgot about the Jasmine Revolution in China.
Right about now, I'm guessing most of the people participating in the Jasmine Revolution wish they could forget about it as well.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 22, 2011, 01:30:02 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 21, 2011, 09:08:33 PM
Forgot about the Jasmine Revolution in China.
Right about now, I'm guessing most of the people participating in the Jasmine Revolution wish they could forget about it as well.
Is it just me, or is the international news beginning to look like a giant game of whack-a-mole?
Fuck if I know, I don't have TV at my apartment.
ECH,
worst kind of heretic
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 22, 2011, 01:54:09 AM
Fuck if I know, I don't have TV at my apartment.
ECH,
worst kind of heretic
I haven't watched TV since 1987. They have these websites, see, where they put news up. It's a recent innovation out West.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 01:59:09 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 22, 2011, 01:54:09 AM
Fuck if I know, I don't have TV at my apartment.
ECH,
worst kind of heretic
I haven't watched TV since 1987. They have these websites, see, where they put news up. It's a recent innovation out West.
It'll never catch on.
Quote from: Faust on February 22, 2011, 09:40:50 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 01:59:09 AM
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 22, 2011, 01:54:09 AM
Fuck if I know, I don't have TV at my apartment.
ECH,
worst kind of heretic
I haven't watched TV since 1987. They have these websites, see, where they put news up. It's a recent innovation out West.
It'll never catch on.
My TV only gets X-Box since we went digital. I dont miss it much either.
Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 22, 2011, 01:54:09 AM
Fuck if I know, I don't have TV at my apartment.
ECH,
worst kind of heretic
I have a TV set up for the sole purpose of viewing DVDs. Since I moved in on 1/1, I believe it's been turned on (other than setting it up and making sure the bloody thing worked) twice.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 21, 2011, 09:08:33 PM
Forgot about the Jasmine Revolution in China.
I dont believe twenty guys on Twitter count as a revolution.
Neither does the Chinese government, really, but that wont stop them from treating them as such.
What's a television?
Going rate for mercenaries in Libya just jumped four-fold. According to the word on the street in Lagos and Conakry, the governent is now hiring at $2000 a day. That's also four hundred times the average Libyan daily wage.
Gadhafi is looking desperate.
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2011, 02:53:31 PM
Going rate for mercenaries in Libya just jumped four-fold. According to the word on the street in Lagos and Conakry, the governent is now hiring at $2000 a day. That's also four hundred times the average Libyan daily wage.
Gadhafi is looking desperate.
BBC reported that there are claims of Eastern European mercs in Tripoli now as well.
Yugoslav or ex-Bloc?
For that kind of money I should think he can get Chechens.
I find it interesting that mercenaries are once again a prime mover in international politics.
Jerry Pournelle was right, but for all the wrong reasons.
To be fair, they never really went away in Africa, or the Middle East. Britain managed to retain an informal empire after the collapse of the actual one in no small part due to a mercenary, namely Col. David Stirling (founder of the SAS).
I'd be interested to find out if a greater proportion of mercenaries nowadays are state-sanctioned/linked (ie Blackwater, DynCorp etc) or true freelancers, and the distribution of payment between those groups, though.
Mercenaries have a way of fucking you over. This could be interesting.
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 22, 2011, 05:32:34 PM
Mercenaries have a way of fucking you over. This could be interesting.
Yep.
In fact, if you're hiring mercenaries, it usually means you don't have the means to control them.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 05:33:29 PM
Quote from: Princess Suu the Apostate on February 22, 2011, 05:32:34 PM
Mercenaries have a way of fucking you over. This could be interesting.
Yep.
In fact, if you're hiring mercenaries, it usually means you don't have the means to control them.
It only takes a higher bidder, or someone getting pissed and taking off with the money.
Or, worse, you offer to pay a large group of Ostrogoths, then go back on your word after the war is over, and before you know it, they sack your capital.
Thats another reason why the state-connected versus free agent mercenaries should be distinguished.
I made the argument several years ago that going by Machiavelli's schema of fighting forces presented in The Prince, companies like DynCorp and Blackwater are actually more of a cross between corporate auxiliaries and militias (this doesnt apply to Blackwater now so much, but at the time it was made up of mostly US ex-military. DynCorp and many other major private security companies were founded by generals and admirals and staffed their ranks accordingly). Lets face it, Northrop Gumman wont fight for China no matter how much money they stump up, and so they should rightly be seen as corporate-controlled allies of the state, free companies under reliable command.
Mercenaries most third world dictators will turn to in a crisis situation, however...well, they can be more old school. Though again, the problem the countries in Africa at the moment are currently having could accurately be described as a deficit in credible government violence. Unless all the mercenaries banded together, and talked over some others (factions of internal security and the host military) at the same time, it doesn't seem like any coup would be worth the effort. There would be more financial gain in robbing a bank and kidnapping the family members of those close to the regime, with their various Swiss bank accounts and so on.
U.S. oil prices spiked above $100 a barrel for the first time in over two years Wednesday, as reports of Libyan oil production shutdowns swirled.
Italian oil giant Eni said Wednesday that it had partially shut down its 150,000-barrel-per-day production in the North African country.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/23/markets/oil/index.htm?hpt=T2
What a surprise.
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8278847-benghazi-libya-1500-prisoners-held-underground-since-feb-15th
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9UjXHrWrSm4/TWVKO1PToAI/AAAAAAAABA0/7pQoItQbqSU/s1600/asshole.jpeg)
Benghazi, Libya 1500 Prisoners Held Underground Since Feb 15thQuoteReports are now coming in from The Libyan Youth Movement, who are in direct contact with Benghazi in Libya that 1500 prisoners have been held underground since Feb 15th. It is also rumoured that many more political prisoners are being brought out who have been underground for up to a year.
The word is that they are being "Dug Out", so what this means can only be speculation.. But the L.Y.M are classing it as confirmed.
It seems that protests of this kind are spreading round the world. In Athens Greece it has just been reported that a police office was hit by a firebomb in a recent protest.
Latest news Just in. Tajura, which is less than 10 miles from Tripoli has fallen and is now flying the rebel flag.
The Justice Minister of Libya who recently resigned has claimed that he has proof that Col. Gadaffi ordered the Lockerbie bombing.
here's a tweet posted from the region:
QuoteJazeera, I want to deliver this information, I confirmed it personally, on my responsibility. I am a Libyan citizen. Today in Benghazi they discovered a room underground, a room that is completely locked-in. Completely locked. Holding 1500 young men from Benghazi. From the 15th of February the first day of demonstrations to today when they got them out, the 22nd, they had been without food or water. They heard the voices from the barracks, noise, people. After they went to check, they got them out, God be praised, alive. 1500 young men, buried alive, buried alive. Muammar must be obliterated. We will not surrender. Our dead are in heaven, he is in hell. God bear witness that I have delivered this message, if there are any Muslims. God willing.
That's a bit longer that 160 characters.
Quote from: Cain on February 21, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
Iran - some protests
After the protests last year, do you think that the Iranian people will carry these on to the level of revolt, or are they likely to back down as the odds won't be in their favour?
Quote from: Cain on February 21, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
Qatar - there has been some organizing for protests, but nothing major seems to be happening just yet.
Qatar just gave its people a couple of grand each, a couple of months ago (even though they probably should have spent the money on some new hospitals), so perhaps nothing will come of it. Although, seeing as though Al Jazeera is based in Qatar it is hard to gauge exactly what conditions are like there.
Quote from: Rumckle on February 24, 2011, 03:29:13 AM
Quote from: Cain on February 21, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
Iran - some protests
After the protests last year, do you think that the Iranian people will carry these on to the level of revolt, or are they likely to back down as the odds won't be in their favour?
I heard that at one point they were actually calling for the death of the Ayatollah. Could be interesting. If Gaddafi is booted it might embolden them more.
Also, 5000th post.
I liked the way he put up a "No Fly" Zone, around Libya, because Thatcher had set the precedent in the Falklands, thereby stopping American Flyovers in Libya. So if it's OK for Britain to get away with shit like that, . . .Mummuar want some!
So Thatcher just ignored him for about a week, then Got Ronnie over at No10 one night, and decided to send in an American Fighter Jet, from Brize Norton, all the way to Tripoli, and bomb his fucking House with Patriot Missiles, killing his Wife and young Son in the process. of course this wasn't that long after someone shot WPC Louise Fletcher from the Embassy Window so things were a little strained still. That was probably the trigger that ended with that Lockerbie thing. And he had huge brass balls in those days. All he did to start with was send a few 'Aid Parcels' to an oppressed Ireland. Which didn't go down too well with the British Army, who were hoping to occupy an Ulster that didn't have Semtex, or AK47s shooting back at them. And he's the Worlds longest serving head of State too.:kingmeh: (Fidel at No2)
Whenever Foreign Dignitaries visited, he always received them in a Fucking Yurt in his Garden. Even so, Libya has been one of the steadier ones in the area for a long time. He'll seriously kill everyone in Libya to get his way. Either that, or he'll get slotted by one of the embedded SAS Mercs we no doubt have serving as 'Security Operative Advisors'' Training up a secret Mercenary Army of Chechen werewolves, who are training to take their shit to Israel. A "Night of the Long Knives" for Charon, and his Zionist & Bilderberg Owl fancying Bohemian Grove Reptilian shining ones. Interesting. but really just a lot of old bullshit, and pigwank spread around by 'Them', to try and discredit David Icke, at all costs! :lulz:
The Libyan capital was a ghost town Thursday morning, witnesses said, as anti-government protesters declared victory elsewhere after reportedly seizing control of the country's third-largest city.
Misrata -- also spelled as Misurata -- is now in the hands of the opposition, who have driven out the mercenaries, according to witnesses and multiple media reports.
Witnesses and multiple reports also said that the town of Az Zintan was under opposition control.
The opposition also controls Libya's second-largest city, Benghazi, where crowds cheered as international journalists drove through the city. The only shooting that could be heard was celebratory gunfire.
"When they saw us arrive, they just exploded with cheers and clapping, people saying "thank you, thank you" in English, throwing candy and dates inside the car," CNN's Ben Wedeman told AC360.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/...tml?hpt=T1
It's all Bin Laden's fault!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12570279
Is Gaddafi just nuts (well, stupid question) or is he banking on some sort of Western support with this?
Quote from: Doktor Blight on February 24, 2011, 03:06:45 PM
It's all Bin Laden's fault!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12570279
Is Gaddafi just nuts (well, stupid question) or is he banking on some sort of Western support with this?
LMAO, I saw that.
Quote from: Charley Brown on February 24, 2011, 03:11:32 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on February 24, 2011, 03:06:45 PM
It's all Bin Laden's fault!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12570279
Is Gaddafi just nuts (well, stupid question) or is he banking on some sort of Western support with this?
LMAO, I saw that.
That's... if he had any credibility to begin with, he would have lost it right there
Historically, opposition in Libya did come from Islamist networks connected to Bin Laden. We in the UK should know this, since MI6 allegedly paid one such group to off Gaddafi in 98 (http://cryptome.org/shayler-gaddafi.htm). Furthermore, Gaddafi was seen as a credible partner because of his support for the War on Terror (and his energy reserves). So this kind of signalling is not as crazy as it seems, because even if it is factually wrong, it is likely intended to remind Western elites that Gaddafi was onboard with the War on Terror. There may be other implications linked to that reminder, but those remain to be seen.
Also, it seems much of the country outside of Tripoli is now in the hands of revolutionaries. The east has been for at least a few days, and reports came in last night suggesting most of the west was now in similar condition, with lots of armed militias springing up, having gained their arms from fleeing soldiers and police officers.
Quote from: Cain on February 21, 2011, 07:42:59 PM
...is because no-one knows how to spell his fucking name correctly.
Right now there is a totally unaware passport control officer somewhere saying "I hope your enjoy your visit to our country, Mr. Kaddafiye."
Incidentally, before the rumours of fleeing began, it was said Libya was paying pro-regime mercenaries around $500/day, which is significantly higher than in Egypt. Nevertheless, the Libyan Air Force refused to bomb protestors, and protestors have apparently captured a tank. And Benghazi tribes are threatening to cut off Libyan oil from reaching the West unless the violence stops.
All of this makes it my favourite North African Revolution so far, especially since the protestors may end up doing a victory lap around a burnt down palace in a tank for the world media to see.
Here's his name, and Titilular address, from when he assumed the Presidency,
"Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution" and "Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" :lulz:
However you spell his name, he's apparently vowed to fight to the bitter end.
Either he'll kill every person in Libya, just to be on the safe side, or someone will slot him in the attempt. Or he could claim Asylum. In Scotland, maybe?
I kin heer the Circus a'comin up the road!
Given that he used to fund the IRA, I don't think Asylum in the UK would be a great move on his part.
On the other hand, it'd be amusing to watch, from a safe distance.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on February 24, 2011, 09:25:48 PM
Given that he used to fund the IRA, I don't think Asylum in the UK would be a great move on his part.
On the other hand, it'd be amusing to watch, from a safe distance.
The greeks love him, he could well go to Crete.
If the U.S. military were to intervene in an increasingly chaotic Libya, it would most likely be part of a NATO action in which Libyan bloodshed has reached a humanitarian crisis, analysts said Thursday.
As reports emerged Thursday about deadly clashes between leader Moammar Gadhafi's forces and anti-government protesters in the town of Zawiya near Tunisia, analysts highlighted how Gadhafi has already pledged to fight a rebellion to martyrdom.
Military intervention "is something which I hope doesn't happen, but it looks as though at some point that it should happen," said Simon Henderson, senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/24/libya.military.intervention/index.html?hpt=T1
:argh!:
He'd likely go to Italy first, then to a suitably neutral country. Libya has surprisingly good relations with the country, despite their shared past, and Gadaffi and Berlusconi get on personally quite well.
The idea that "we" should intervene in Libya has now reached fever pitch, with David Cameron doing his best Blair impression and vowing he will not abandon the revolutionaries (well, yes, because to abandon them would imply you supported them in the first case, which blatantly wasn't the case, what with the SAS training Libyan commandos and all).
Apparently, that this idea is being heavily promoted by the same geniuses behind the PNAC is not raising many alarm bells in media or policy circles.
Neither is the fact that the revolutionaries are, well, revolutionary. To go full-tilt rebellion you need to be a little crazy, passionate and bloodthirsty. They really wanna put Gaddafi's head on a spike, and wave it around for everyone to see. If they storm Tripoli and find a bunch of Marines ninja'd in and did it first, any intervening force will probably find itself fighting loyalists and revolutionaries. The pernicious idea that anti-Gaddafi = pro-America/Europe + we have to do something needs to be stamped on, hard. Given the support we've given to the Libyan regime since 2003, I wouldn't blame the protestors (many of whom do not speak English, and so are ignoring the many English speaking declarations of support) for thinking we were coming in to defend our investment.
Also, intervening in Libya, with its oil and gas deposits, when not intervening in Egypt or Tunisia, which lack this mineral wealth, will further confirm many suspicions.
Truck medicine, food and guns to the revolutionaries, sure. Hell, give them some howitzers and let them go crazy on the ringed tank defenses around Tripoli. But there really are some things people just need to do for themselves, and beheading their own former dictator is one of them.
FFS.
Drop loads of rifles and RPGs around the country, smile, and wish them the best of luck.
Quotethere really are some things people just need to do for themselves, and beheading their own former dictator is one of them.
Fuckin NEWSFEED!
:x
"To concern yourself with surface political conflicts is to make the mistake of the bull in the ring, you are charging the cloth. That is what politics is for, to teach you the cloth. Just as the bullfighter teaches the bull, teaches him to follow, obey the cloth."
-William S Burroughs
Edit for Quote Context: It's really nice to have a place to find other people not glamoured by the Matador.
Pepe Escobar lays down the law http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MC03Ak03.html
QuoteForget "democracy"; Libya, unlike Egypt and Tunisia, is an oil power. Many a plush office of United States and European elites will be salivating at the prospect of taking advantage of a small window of opportunity afforded by the anti-Muammar Gaddafi revolution to establish - or expand - a beachhead. There's all that oil, of course. There's also the allure, close by, of the US$10 billion, 4,128 kilometer long Trans-Saharan gas pipeline from Nigeria to Algeria, expected to be online in 2015.
Thus the world, once again, is reintroduced to war porn, history as farce, a bad rerun of "shock and awe". Everyone - the United Nations, the US, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) - is up in arms about a no-fly zone. Special forces are on the move, as are US warships.
Breathless US senators compare Libya with Yugoslavia. Tony "The Return of the Living Dead" Blair is back in missionary zeal form, its mirror image played by British Prime Minister David Cameron, duly mocked by Gaddafi's son, the "modernizer" Saif al-Islam. There's fear of "chemical weapons". Welcome back to humanitarian imperialism - on crack.
And like a character straight out of Scary Movie, even war-on-Iraq-architect Paul Wolfowitz wants a NATO-enforced no-fly zone, as the Foreign Policy Initiative - the son of the Project for the New American Century - publishes an open letter to US President Barack Obama demanding military boots to turn Libya into a protectorate ruled by NATO in the name of the "international community".
The mere fact that all these people are supporting the Libya protesters makes it all stink to - over the rainbow - high heavens. Sending His Awesomeness Charlie Sheen to whack Gaddafi would seem more believable.
It was up to Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov to introduce a note of sanity, describing the notion of a no-fly zone over Libya as "superfluous". This means in practice a Russian veto at the UN Security Council. Earlier, China had already changed the conversation.
In their Sheen-style hysteria - with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton desperately offering "any kind of assistance" - Western politicians did not bother to consult with the people who are risking their lives to overthrow Gaddafi. At a press conference in Benghazi, the spokesman for the brand new Libyan National Transitional Council, human-rights lawyer Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga, was blunt, "We are against any foreign intervention or military intervention in our internal affairs ... This revolution will be completed by our people."
The people in question, by the way, are protecting Libya's oil industry, and even loading supertankers destined to Europe and China. The people in question do not have much to do with opportunists such as former Gaddafi-appointed justice minister Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, who wants a provisional government to prepare for elections in three months. Moreover, the people in question, as al-Jazeera has reported, have been saying they don't want foreign intervention for a week now.
The Benghazi council prefers to describe itself as the "political face for the revolution", organizing civic affairs, and not established as an interim government. Meanwhile, a military committee of officer defectors is trying to set up a skeleton army to be sent to Tripoli; through tribal contacts, they seem to have already infiltrated small cells into the vicinity of Tripoli.
Whether this self-appointed revolutionary leadership - splinter elements of the established elite, the tribes and the army - will be the face of a new regime, or whether they will be overtaken by younger, more radical activists, remains to be seen.
Shower me with hypocrisy
None of this anyway has placated the hysterical Western narrative, according to which there are only two options for Libya; to become a failed state or the next al-Qaeda haven. How ironic. Up to 2008, Libya was dismissed by Washington as a rogue state and an unofficial member of the "axis of evil" that originally included Iraq, Iran and North Korea.
As former NATO supreme commander Wesley Clark confirmed years ago, Libya was on the Pentagon/neo-conservative official list to be taken out after Iraq, along with Somalia, Sudan, Lebanon, Syria and the holy grail, Iran. But as soon as wily Gaddafi became an official partner in the "war on terror", Libya was instantly upgraded by the George W Bush administration to civilized status.
As for the UN Security Council unanimously deciding to refer the Gaddafi regime to the International Criminal Court (ICC), it's useful to remember that the ICC was created in mid-1998 by 148 countries meeting in Rome. The final vote was 120 to seven. The seven that voted against the ICC were China, Iraq, Israel, Qatar and Yemen, plus Libya and ... the United States. Incidentally, Israel killed more Palestinian civilians in two weeks around new year 2008 than Gaddafi these past two weeks.
This tsunami of hypocrisy inevitably raises the question; what does the West know about the Arab world anyway? Recently the executive board of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) praised a certain northern African country for its "ambitious reform agenda" and its "strong macroeconomic performance and the progress on enhancing the role of the private sector". The country was Libya. The IMF had only forgotten to talk to the main actors: the Libyan people.
And what to make of Anthony Giddens - the guru behind Blair's "Third Way" - who in March 2007 penned an article to The Guardian saying "Libya is not especially repressive" and "Gaddafi seems genuinely popular"? Giddens bet that Libya "in two or three decades' time would be a Norway of North Africa: prosperous, egalitarian and forward-looking". Tripoli may well be on its way to Oslo - but without the Gaddafi clan.
The US, Britain and France are so awkwardly maneuvering for best post-Gaddafi positioning it's almost comical to watch. Beijing, even against its will, waited until extra time to condemn Gaddafi at the UN, but made sure it was following the lead of African and Asian countries (smart move, as in "we listen to the voices of the South"). Beijing is extremely worried that its complex economic relationship with oil source Libya does not unravel (amid all the hoopla about fleeing expats, China quietly evacuated no less than 30,000 Chinese workers in the oil and construction business).
Once again; it's the oil, stupid. A crucial strategic factor for Washington is that post-Gaddafi Libya may represent a bonanza for US Big Oil - which for the moment has been kept away from Libya. Under this perspective, Libya may be considered as yet one more battleground between the US and China. But while China goes for energy and business deals in Africa, the US bets on its forces in AFRICOM as well as NATO advancing "military cooperation" with the African Union.
The anti-Gaddafi movement must remain on maximum alert. It's fair to argue the absolute majority of Libyans are using all their resourcefulness and are wiling to undergo any sacrifice to build a united, transparent and democratic country. And they will do it on their own. They may accept humanitarian help. As for war porn, throw it in the dustbin of history.
It's always been about the oil. Sadly, if we had spent those trillions of dollars developing different energy sources oil could possibly be reduced to a historical footnote by now.
So I suppose control of oil is just simply control, and we all know that is more important than anything.
Right?
There does seem to be a different attitude on this one, yeah? On the other hand, Gadaffi is the only one openly gunning down protesters. So there is that...
As a complete aside, I think Godwin's law should temporarily include any references to Charlie Sheen.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on March 02, 2011, 03:36:43 PM
There does seem to be a different attitude on this one, yeah? On the other hand, Gadaffi is the only one openly gunning down protesters. So there is that...
Not so. In Bahrain protestors were gunned down in front of BBC and Al Jazeera journalists. They broadcast the aftermath of such attacks on the evening news over here, with the rushing ambulances and people bleeding from wounds decrying the government brutality. While the scale of violence there is likely smaller, so is the country overall. Yemen has also reportedly used brutal violence, though I don't have much details on that.
But Bahrain does house the Fifth Fleet, who would be the principle strike force against Iran, and have the largest growing financial sector in the world, so...
The sheer hypocrisy in Clinton's speeches this past weekend about Libya made me weep (in my head, but still). It's like irony is completely and totally dead to these people. But yes, the increased armament and the readying of planes to fly over is shocking, but not totally unpredictable. I think the Conservatives have been slavering over the chance to do this for so long it must BE in some sort of "longterm war playbook" they wrote and the Obama administration keeps around for general guidelines.
And I always thought the reaction to the shootings in Bahrain had to do with a "special" relationship its King or whatever the fuck he is had with EU and US governments. Those fuckers were killing AMBULANCE drivers and EMTs. Pulling them out and beating/shooting them. And the world just stood in shock SHOCK!! as they did it, but other than reporting on it, and the subsequent apologies issued (Oh, our bad, we thought you guys would find us so mighty you wouldn't REPORT on our display of great power and might against resistance...!!), uh yeah, virtual silence (there may have been a general issuing of statements of condemnation, but really, who gives a fuck, yeah?).
Protests were planned for today in Saudi Arabia. Japan news likely meant reports never reached the air of most news channels. As did the steps taken by the regime to undermine the protests, by stating foreign workers were the agitators, and sending in lots of heavily armed security people to the mostly Shia districts where the oil is extracted and where the protests were due to happen.
The Kingdom will no doubt deny, contrary to all recent evidence, that there is even a word in Arabic for "protest", but tomorrow's oil prices will show the truth of the situation. If the Shia oil workers are getting violent, price rises will be unavoidable. Even strike and sit-ins will cause barrels to increase steadily, as speculators become nervous.
In other news, we have to invade Libya to win the Spanish Civil War and avert World War 2, or something (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/libya_foolish_to_stay_out_qQzOzvcQKsIs23P5P6ZYgP).
Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2011, 01:11:42 AM
Protests were planned for today in Saudi Arabia. Japan news likely meant reports never reached the air of most news channels. As did the steps taken by the regime to undermine the protests, by stating foreign workers were the agitators, and sending in lots of heavily armed security people to the mostly Shia districts where the oil is extracted and where the protests were due to happen.
The Kingdom will no doubt deny, contrary to all recent evidence, that there is even a word in Arabic for "protest", but tomorrow's oil prices will show the truth of the situation. If the Shia oil workers are getting violent, price rises will be unavoidable. Even strike and sit-ins will cause barrels to increase steadily, as speculators become nervous.
In other news, we have to invade Libya to win the Spanish Civil War and avert World War 2, or something (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/libya_foolish_to_stay_out_qQzOzvcQKsIs23P5P6ZYgP).
Now, Cain, you know me, and you know I'm the last guy to run around screaming about "Zionists".
But, really. :lulz: Mister Avni seems to be a little shrill, no?
I personally like his assertion that Hitler and Mussolini would've settled down if Franco had lost the war. That seems a totally credible alternative scenario. In fact, I am surprised Harry Turtledove has not written a novel about this possibility.
Saudi Arabia and the UAE have sent fucking troops into Bahrain.
Morons, absolute morons.
1500 troops wont do jack shit, except turn this uprising into a sectarian conflict. Because now Iran has been "proved" right in saying that the Gulf oil Sheikhdoms are nothing but Sunni autocracies, suppressing their Shia minorities at the behest of the House of Saud.
This wont stop the protests, and now Iran has a pretext to meddle as well. Next step will be the Saudis and Iranians sponsoring jihadis, no doubt, since the Saudi Army has a morale somewhat below that of the Khmer Rouge rebels still holding out in the Cambodian hills, and will be solidly routed by any force showing more than basic enthusiasm and experience with weapons.
Har har har
http://craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/03/the-invasion-of-bahrain/
Quote"A senior diplomat in a western mission to the UN in New York, who I have known over ten years and trust, has told me for sure that Hillary Clinton agreed to the cross-border use of troops to crush democracy in the Gulf, as a quid pro quo for the Arab League calling for Western intervention in Libya.
"The hideous King of Bahrain has called in troops from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Kuwait to attack pro-democracy protestors in Bahrain..."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110318/ap_on_re_us/us_us_libya
QuoteWASHINGTON – After weeks of hesitation and divisions among his advisers, President Barack Obama on Friday endorsed military action against Libya's Moammar Gadhafi, saying U.S. values and credibility are at stake to stop "the potential for mass murder" of innocents.
The U.S. military, which is already stretched thin by two wars and an expanding effort to assist disaster victims in Japan, would take a supporting role, Obama said, with European and Arab partners in the lead. He explicitly ruled out sending American ground forces into the North African nation.
Nothing good will come of this.
And we are now blowing shit up
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972
QuoteThe UK, the US and France have begun attacking Libya as enforcement of the UN-mandated no-fly zone gets under way.
More than 110 missiles have been fired by the UK and US, officials at the Pentagon say.
Earlier, forces loyal to Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi attacked the rebel stronghold of Benghazi despite declaring a ceasefire a day earlier.
Western planes bombed targets in the capital, Tripoli, said the AFP news agency, quoting witnesses and state TV.
Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2011, 01:11:42 AM
Protests were planned for today in Saudi Arabia. Japan news likely meant reports never reached the air of most news channels. As did the steps taken by the regime to undermine the protests, by stating foreign workers were the agitators, and sending in lots of heavily armed security people to the mostly Shia districts where the oil is extracted and where the protests were due to happen.
The Kingdom will no doubt deny, contrary to all recent evidence, that there is even a word in Arabic for "protest", but tomorrow's oil prices will show the truth of the situation. If the Shia oil workers are getting violent, price rises will be unavoidable. Even strike and sit-ins will cause barrels to increase steadily, as speculators become nervous.
In other news, we have to invade Libya to win the Spanish Civil War and avert World War 2, or something (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/libya_foolish_to_stay_out_qQzOzvcQKsIs23P5P6ZYgP).
I always thoguht the Arabic word for protest was Jihad (although of course it means a lot of other things too)
Quote from: Donald Coyote on March 19, 2011, 09:44:16 PM
And we are now blowing shit up
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972
QuoteThe UK, the US and France have begun attacking Libya as enforcement of the UN-mandated no-fly zone gets under way.
More than 110 missiles have been fired by the UK and US, officials at the Pentagon say.
Earlier, forces loyal to Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi attacked the rebel stronghold of Benghazi despite declaring a ceasefire a day earlier.
Western planes bombed targets in the capital, Tripoli, said the AFP news agency, quoting witnesses and state TV.
Great.
It is interesting to note the lack of voting on these measures in those countries undertaking them. While the UK PM retains the Royal Perogative of military deployment, and the French frequently defer foreign policy making to the Presidency, I am fairly sure that in the US Congress and in particular Senator Lugar (one of the two Repub Senators worth listening to on foreign policy issues) have demanded a vote on military action. Now, I have been busy, especially in the past several hours, but as far as I am aware that vote has not yet taken place.
This also adds evidence to a pet thesis of mine that states will tend to show more antidemocratic sentiment when it comes to foreign policy making and this sentiment is not necessarily linked to parliamentary formalism (though the case can be made that the three countries named above are oligarchies and not true democracies anyway).
Legally, of course, all of this is above board, with the possible exception of the USA, it is just interesting to note.
The US has the war powers resolution, to allow Obama to do whatever the hell he feels like, regardless of what the Constitution says.
Actually, it gives him two months to get a vote, since the US is not under attack or imminent threat.
I'll be very surprised if all the troops come home before that deadline is reached.
France has deployed Charles de Gaulle.
I'm pretty sure that means they aren't fucking around on this one.
Edit: someday I'll be able to spell that right.
Er yes, the two month thing (in the absence of congress actually voting on the matter anyway).
I'll be highly amused if they don't come home by then, if only because it'll finally force the courts to admit if they have any intention of enforcing the war powers clause.
There is a certain breed of commentator who, when asked about the Israeli-Palestine conflict, will say "oh, I have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, of course, but they need to commit themselves to non-violent protest. Only then will they win the respect of the international community that their cause deserves".
These commentators are often the more intelligent kind of conservative or pro-Israeli Democrat, when confronted by supporters of the Palestinian cause.
Well. Palestinians have been peacefully protesting for the last month, and the response from Israel has been to send soldiers with live ammunition to cut them down. Just like every other Arab autocracy in the region, in fact.
It's funny, but I don't see the international community running to endorse a Palestinian state and restrain Israel anytime soon. It's almost like people don't actually care what their favoured side does (whichever side they choose), they only care about using foreign conflicts as a stick to beat their domestic opponents with. But of course, that is just crass cynicism speaking.
As for the Palestinian protestors, well, Machiavelli said, "Hence it comes about that all armed Prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed Prophets have been destroyed." They're about to get a short, sharp lesson in why disarming yourself leads to being treated with contempt.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on March 20, 2011, 02:37:50 AM
Er yes, the two month thing (in the absence of congress actually voting on the matter anyway).
I'll be highly amused if they don't come home by then, if only because it'll finally force the courts to admit if they have any intention of enforcing the war powers clause.
It's been over two months now, and no vote has taken place. Kuncinich and some House Repubs tried to protest, but were solidly defeated in the vote.
Shit just got real in Yemen. President Saleh's compound came under RPG attack on Friday and was "injured" by some shrapnel and to fly to Saudi Arabia for "surgery". For those who can read between the lines, that means a nasty and mostly covert struggle for power has kicked off. The Republican Guard, various intelligence services and Vice-Presidency are all held by different power brokers, so this should be fun.
BUT CAIN! ITZ TEH 'ARAB SPRING'! ALLA THE MOOZLIMS ARE GETTIN' DEMOKRATIK!
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2011, 11:52:10 AM
There is a certain breed of commentator who, when asked about the Israeli-Palestine conflict, will say "oh, I have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, of course, but they need to commit themselves to non-violent protest. Only then will they win the respect of the international community that their cause deserves".
These commentators are often the more intelligent kind of conservative or pro-Israeli Democrat, when confronted by supporters of the Palestinian cause.
Well. Palestinians have been peacefully protesting for the last month, and the response from Israel has been to send soldiers with live ammunition to cut them down. Just like every other Arab autocracy in the region, in fact.
It's funny, but I don't see the international community running to endorse a Palestinian state and restrain Israel anytime soon. It's almost like people don't actually care what their favoured side does (whichever side they choose), they only care about using foreign conflicts as a stick to beat their domestic opponents with. But of course, that is just crass cynicism speaking.
As for the Palestinian protestors, well, Machiavelli said, "Hence it comes about that all armed Prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed Prophets have been destroyed." They're about to get a short, sharp lesson in why disarming yourself leads to being treated with contempt.
The sad thing is this means that there will probably never be a peacfull resolution to this. The pallasenians will probably never take another chance with nonviolence and the Israelis will use palestines violence to justify their violence.
Oh Clinton, your Bush II-esque tactics never fail to amaze
http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2011/06/166752.htm
QuoteBut the bottom line is, whose side are you on? Are you on Qadhafi's side or are you on the side of the aspirations of the Libyan people and the international coalition that has been created to support them? For the Obama Administration, the answer to that question is very easy.
Here's some extra fun
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/02/17/clinton/index.html
Quote"I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family".
:lulz:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14352662
QuoteLibyan rebel commander Gen Abdel Fattah Younes was shot dead by a militia linked to his own side, a rebel minister has said.
Ali Tarhouni said Gen Younes was killed by members of the Obaida Ibn Jarrah Brigade, which is an Islamist group.
Gen Younes defected to the rebels in February after serving in the Libyan leadership since the 1969 coup which brought Col Muammar Gaddafi to power.
But how can this be? I've been assured by supporters of the war that there are no Islamists working with the rebels. In other news, this makes the chances of the rebels ever winning even slimmer than they already were, which is saying something.
Meanwhile, in Egypt...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14341089
QuoteTens of thousands of people have packed Cairo's Tahrir Square, after the first call by Islamist leaders for nationwide demonstrations since President Hosni Mubarak was overthrown in February.
Many protesters - dominated by Muslim Brotherhood supporters - are calling for an Islamic state and Sharia law.
Correspondents say the rallies will be a worrying development for secularists.
The Brotherhood is the most organised political force in Egypt, although it was not prominent in the revolution.
Tensions have been running high between Egypt's Islamist and secular groups, who are at odds over the transition to democracy in the Arab world's most populated country.
Casualties
Later there were a number of casualties when violence broke out in a separate incident in Sinai.
"We have two bodies of civilians in the morgue now and 12 police conscripts being treated for injuries in hospital," Hisham Shiha, Egypt's deputy health minister, told state television.
Around 100 armed men drove around the city of El-Arish, shouting Islamic slogans, and firing into the air, before attacking a police station.
Terrified residents fled into their homes. One of those killed was a 13-year-old boy, according to reports in the local media.
Turning point?
Among the earlier protests in Tahrir Square, liberal groups called for guarantees of a constitution that will protect religious freedom and personal rights, whereas Islamists demanded speedy elections and a recognition of Islam - in one form or another - in the new Egyptian state.
Now the Islamists want their voice to be heard and are showing their muscle for the first time since Mr Mubarak stepped down on 11 February, says the BBC's Jon Leyne in Cairo.
Although the Muslim Brotherhood can turn out huge crowds by rallying its supporters at mosques, it does not necessarily represent the majority of Egyptians and is predicted to win around 20% of the vote in an election, our correspondent says.
Hey, who remembers Hama? Because it is about to get round 2 of the kind of treatment it got in 1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-14356722
QuoteThe Syrian army has stormed the western city of Hama, with residents saying that dozens of people have been killed and injured.
Hama, a hub of anti-government protest, has been besieged for nearly a month.
Locals have reported "intense gunfire" after troops and tanks moved into the city from several directions at dawn.
The army is signalling that it will not tolerate large-scale unrest ahead of the month of Ramadan, when protests are expected to grow, correspondents say.
Syria has seen more than four months of protests against the rule of President Bashar al-Assad.
Centre of protests
A doctor in Hama told Reuters news agency that the death toll was rising rapidly, putting the latest estimate at 24.
He said the city's Badr, al-Horani and Hikmeh hospitals had received 19, three and two dead bodies respectively.
"[Tanks] are firing their heavy machineguns randomly and overrunning makeshift road blocks erected by the inhabitants," he said by phone, with machinegun fire in the background.
Hama was the scene of the suppression of an uprising against President Assad's father in 1982. The city has seen some of the biggest demonstrations of the recent unrest.
Activists say more than 1,500 civilians and 350 security personnel have been killed across Syria since protests began in mid-March. More than 12,600 have been arrested and 3,000 others are missing.
The protests show no sign of letting up despite a government crackdown that has brought international condemnation and sanctions.
On Saturday, troops shot dead three people who threw stones at a military convoy sent to quash unrest in the eastern city of Deir al-Zour, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.
Spokesman Rami Abdel Rahman said about 60 military vehicles, including tanks, personnel carriers and trucks crammed with soldiers deployed in the key oil hub, which has seen near daily protests.
A total of 20 people were killed and 35 wounded on Friday as hundreds of thousands of protested in cities across Syria, rights groups said.
More than 500 people were arrested in a single operation in the Qadam neighbourhood of the capital Damascus, they added.
...ah yes, and so it has begun--the Holy Month of Ramadan Bloodshed and Suffering.
Gadaffi now controls 20% more of Libya than he did at the start of the rebellion.
Meanwhile, the leader of the Benghazi rebels just sacked the entire government. No-one is sure if he has the authority to do this, but then no-one is sure of anything much nowadays, including whether or not the TNC authorised the hit on General Younes.
Oops.
Quote from: teh BBCA UK firm offered to supply "cyber-spy" software used by Egypt to target activists, the BBC has learned.
Documents found in the headquarters of the country's security service suggest it was used for a five-month trial period at the end of last year.
Hampshire-based Gamma International UK denies actually supplying the program, which infects computers with a virus that bugs online voice calls and email.
The foreign secretary says he will "critically" examine export controls.
After hearing evidence compiled by the BBC, William Hague, who speaks for the government on computer security issues, said: "Any export of goods that could be used for internal repression is something we would want to stop."
He also admitted the law governing software exports was a grey area.
The documents seen by the BBC were found at the looted headquarters of the Egyptian state security building earlier this year.
They describe an offer by Gamma International UK Ltd to supply a software programme called Finfisher.
Finfisher is described as a toolkit "used by many global security and intelligence services" for secretly gaining access to people's computers.
The files from the Egyptian secret police's Electronic Penetration Division described Gamma's product as "the only security system in the world" capable of bugging Skype phone conversations on the internet.
They detail a five-month trial by the Egyptian secret police which found the product had "proved to be an efficient electronic system for penetrating secure systems [which] accesses email boxes of Hotmail, Yahoo and Gmail networks".
Another document discovered by German public television network MDR is thought to reveal the first-known victims of the Finfisher program.
The document describes how, during the period of the software trial, the secret police successfully broke into and recorded encrypted Skype calls.
Sherif Mansour, from the US democracy group Freedom House, was in Egypt last year to help monitor parliamentary elections.
So Gamma offered to supply the program to Egypt, and Egypt had the program for a five-month trial during which they used the it to crack down on dissidents, but Gamma "denies actually supplying the program".
:lulz:
Naturally. It was only a trial version. The Egyptian government must have cracked the full-version purchase code somehow.
Or Gamma are lying gits. One or the other.
In other news, President Saleh has, amazingly, returned to Yemen. No word if Saudi military advisors and arms are supporting him (yet) but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that this is the case. And the body count has suddenly shot up. Civil war looks quite likely.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15044857
QuoteAt least 17 people have been killed in a government assault on protesters in the Yemeni capital Sanaa, reports say.
Witnesses say the demonstrators came under attack in the capital's Change Square - the focus of months of protests.
The attack on the camp's southern end reportedly started late on Friday.
The violence comes a day after the return of President Ali Abdullah Saleh from three months' treatment in Saudi Arabia following an assassination bid.
Correspondents say his arrival back in Yemen raises the risk of all-out civil war.
The upsurge in violence happened at the end of a week of fighting in which scores of people are reported to have died.
Mohammed al-Qabati, a medic at the field hospital in the square, told AFP news agency 55 were wounded in the latest attack.
A number of soldiers from a defecting military brigade which has been protecting protesters were among those killed, Mr Qatabi and a spokesman for the brigade said.
Tents and buildings were set on fire, witnesses said.
A resident near the camp told Reuters news agency that government forces had used armoured vehicles and rifles.
"It was an intense fight... My house was shaking like crazy... There are no protesters there now - it's just armed people," the witness said.
Other reports spoke of government troops shelling the 4km (2.5-mile) stretch of avenue which protesters have dubbed Change Square.
Earlier on Friday, at least 13 people reportedly died in fighting in the capital.
Activists have been camped out in Change Square since January, demanding an end to Mr Saleh's decades-long rule.
Clashes in the capital have recently intensified as elite Republican Guards, led by President Saleh's son Ahmed, fight running battles with army units that have defected to the opposition and tribal fighters who support the protesters.
Note, these are the same "tribal fighters" who have been, in many cases mistakenly, linked to Al-Qaeda. Saleh has claimed Al-Qaeda are behind the uprising in his country. When the US government hears another government utter the words "Al-Qaeda" it tends to ship arms. Just saying.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15752058
QuoteSyrian army defectors have attacked a major military base near Damascus, Syrian opposition groups say.
Parts of the Air Force Intelligence building in Harasta were reported to have been destroyed in the attack, but there were no reports of casualties.
It would be the Free Syrian Army's most high-profile attack since Syria's anti-government protests began.
The attack comes as the Arab League prepares to discuss its response to the crackdown on the unrest in Syria.
The Syrian government has severely restricted access for foreign journalists, and reports of violence are extremely difficult to verify.
The UN says more than 3,500 people have died since protests started in March. The Syrian authorities blame the violence on armed gangs and militants.
Army defectors have carried out a number of attacks on military targets in recent weeks but the Harasta incident, if confirmed, would be their most audacious so far.
Such an attack would be significant because Syria's Air Force Intelligence is one of the most feared state agencies and has been involved in the suppression of protests against President Bashar al-Assad.
The base is also very close to the capital, which has remained relatively quiet in the unrest so far.
The closer Syria drifts to civil war, the more the calls for intervention will increase.
Quote from: Cain on November 16, 2011, 10:05:25 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15752058
QuoteSyrian army defectors have attacked a major military base near Damascus, Syrian opposition groups say.
Parts of the Air Force Intelligence building in Harasta were reported to have been destroyed in the attack, but there were no reports of casualties.
It would be the Free Syrian Army's most high-profile attack since Syria's anti-government protests began.
The attack comes as the Arab League prepares to discuss its response to the crackdown on the unrest in Syria.
The Syrian government has severely restricted access for foreign journalists, and reports of violence are extremely difficult to verify.
The UN says more than 3,500 people have died since protests started in March. The Syrian authorities blame the violence on armed gangs and militants.
Army defectors have carried out a number of attacks on military targets in recent weeks but the Harasta incident, if confirmed, would be their most audacious so far.
Such an attack would be significant because Syria's Air Force Intelligence is one of the most feared state agencies and has been involved in the suppression of protests against President Bashar al-Assad.
The base is also very close to the capital, which has remained relatively quiet in the unrest so far.
The closer Syria drifts to civil war, the more the calls for intervention will increase.
What do you think the outcome here is going to be? The Syrian regime seems to be more resilient than the others which have toppled recently, and I suspect that losing them is not in the Arab League's interests, but if the rebels are upping their activities and they have the support of the people, can they be stopped?
Reading up on it a little more, apparently November is the bloodiest month so far with over 300 fatalities - at what point does it become official civil war?
I think 1000 deaths per year of conflict makes it "offcial".
Lots of people want to see Syria go down, though. Turkey is openly aiding the rebels. The Gulf Co-operation Group want Assad gone, and so does Israel. Syria's only "friends" are Iran and, er, North Korea.
And apart from Al Shabbat fucking off, what does Jordan want out of this?
<threadjack> (on a slight side note, Cain, did you hear about AS or people affiliated openly rocking up and offering aid packages (food, water, Korans etc) to the Syrians? </threadjack>
Quote from: Cain on November 16, 2011, 10:05:25 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15752058
QuoteSyrian army defectors have attacked a major military base near Damascus, Syrian opposition groups say.
Parts of the Air Force Intelligence building in Harasta were reported to have been destroyed in the attack, but there were no reports of casualties.
It would be the Free Syrian Army's most high-profile attack since Syria's anti-government protests began.
The attack comes as the Arab League prepares to discuss its response to the crackdown on the unrest in Syria.
The Syrian government has severely restricted access for foreign journalists, and reports of violence are extremely difficult to verify.
The UN says more than 3,500 people have died since protests started in March. The Syrian authorities blame the violence on armed gangs and militants.
Army defectors have carried out a number of attacks on military targets in recent weeks but the Harasta incident, if confirmed, would be their most audacious so far.
Such an attack would be significant because Syria's Air Force Intelligence is one of the most feared state agencies and has been involved in the suppression of protests against President Bashar al-Assad.
The base is also very close to the capital, which has remained relatively quiet in the unrest so far.
The closer Syria drifts to civil war, the more the calls for intervention will increase.
Would I be correct in assessing that, given what we know of history, intervening will most likely worsen the conflict and bloodshed?
Turkey, at least, thinks we're about to see a civil war;
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Turkey-Follows-Russia-Warns-of-Syrian-Civil-War-134106148.html
Oh, they're having another massive protest in Cairo, by the way.
Interesting fact: how the Army and Muslim Brotherhood seem to have cosied up against the more democratically inclined groups.
Quote from: Cain on November 24, 2011, 02:46:47 AM
Oh, they're having another massive protest in Cairo, by the way.
Am I misremembering that you called this in the early days of Arab Spring? I recall us talking about how the Egyptian army had very adroitly positioned itself to be in a position of power post-revolution.
Now the Regime is over, but the oppression, "virginity tests", and police brutality have not stopped.
And Syria is officially in a civil war.
Well well well...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-16395533
QuoteFour people have been killed and at least five injured in a firefight which erupted earlier in the centre of the Libyan capital, Tripoli.
The clash centred on an old intelligence building bombed by Nato in last year's uprising against ex-leader Muammar Gaddafi.
A brigade from the city of Misrata tried to free prisoners held inside, leading to a confrontation with another armed group from Tripoli.
The casualties were from both brigades.
The gunfight broke out near the building between Zawiya and Saidi streets.
The roads quickly reopened once the situation had calmed.
"I regret the incident. I don't want to go into details, but it was the result of a problem between Misrata thwars [revolutionaries] and members of the military council of Zawiya street," Abdul Hakim Belhaj, the head of the Tripoli military council, told a news conference.
"What happened is an irresponsible act and the situation is now under control. Since the afternoon, we have not heard any gunshots," he added.
It is yet another sign of the continuing security threat posed by the disparate militias comprising former rebels, says the BBC's Mark Lowen in Tripoli.
They still wield significant power in the absence of a national army or police.
Meanwhile, there are protests in Benghazi about how Gaddafi loyalists have survived the regime collapse and still wield considerable influence in government. You may recall I suggested this possibility when I brought up how two of the major rebel leaders were former Gadaffi stooges themselves (any coup or rebellion where senior figures of the former regime play a significant role is automatically suspect...it is more likely than not you're witnessing one elite faction moving to oust another and using popular revolt as leverage for their position).
Also, so long as Abdul Hakim Belhaj is in such a prominent role in the military, the civilian government can never be fully secure. In addition to his Islamist tendencies, he is a proven proxy of the Qatari government. Any new Libyan government will be unable to forumulate policies which may damage Qatari interests in the country or region so long as Belhaj is breathing. A competent leader would've arranged for him to have a tragic accident by now, but if the last year has proven anything, it is that the Libyan former rebels, military and regime defectors aside, are not very competent at all.
I DEMAND A SIMPLE NARRATIVE!
The Dude: It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Donny: I am the walrus.
The Dude: You know what I'm trying to say...
Donny: I am the walrus.
Walter Sobchak: That fucking bitch...
The Dude: Oh yeah!
Donny: I am the walrus.
Walter Sobchak: Shut the fuck up, Donny! V.I. Lenin. Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov!
Donny: What the fuck is he talking about, Dude?
Egypt's Presidential election is a farce.
The vote is now between a former regime loyalist, and the Muslim Brotherhood. And then this happened
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18245455
QuoteThe Cairo campaign headquarters of Egyptian presidential candidate Ahmed Shafiq has been attacked.
Egyptian TV broadcast footage of a fire at the building, in the Dokki district. The fire was put out with no signs of serious damage, and no injuries.
The attack came hours after it was announced that Mr Shafiq - The last PM of ex-President Hosni Mubarak - would compete in a run-off next month.
He will face Muslim Brotherhood's Mohammed Mursi in the election.
Either way, it seems the Army is controlling this game.
QuoteCrowds also headed to the city's central Tahrir Square, scene of the protests which forced the resignation of President Hosni Mubarak in February 2011 and frequent demonstrations ever since.
Several hundred people, perhaps as many as a thousand gathered in the roundabout at the centre of the square, protesting against the official election results, the BBC's Yolande Knell reports from the square.
Protests were also reported in Egypt's second city of Alexandria, where left-wing candidate Hamdeen Sabahi topped the poll in the first round of voting last week.
Earlier on Monday, Egypt's election commission confirmed that Mr Mursi had gained 24.3% of the vote in the first round, while Mr Shafiq won 23.3%.
However, there is real anger at the results among many activists, our correspondent says.
Many are saying that they are prepared to stay in the square and that this is the "last chance" to save Egypt's revolution.
Mr Shafiq is viewed by many as a representative of the old regime.
US Ambassador to Libya and three others assassinated in Benghazi.
Allegedly tempers are running high over an anti-Islamic film, made in the US, which has been causing some unrest in the Middle East recently.
However, Middle Eastern politics is like most politics elsewhere on this point. People take to the streets, talk smack, and burn American flags. They don't normally send a team of armed men to storm a US consulate and kill the Ambassador.
To me, this comes across as a highly targeted hit. Taking out the Ambassador in Benghazi of all places is especially bad, since Benghazi is, of course, the birthplace of the TNC, who overthrew Gaddafi. It looks like someone wanted to undermine the Americans and embarrass the existing government at the same time.
And, well, there are plenty of highly trained, Islamist militias who want to turn Libya from its more moderate course.
Was it a window of opportunity, do you think?
"We'll wait until some American does something stupid, and under cover of the anger of the streets, take this guy out."
Or was it more coincidental, that the video just happened to come out on the day they were planning the attack?
Or, it was like, "Hey Sam*, check out this YouTube video some cracker in the US posted. If we leak it, that'll give us cover."
*His name could have been Sam, or it could have been Omar, or it could have been Sally. Who's to say?
Apparently the shooting actually took place near a "safe house" where consular staff had been taken after the initial attack on the consulate. It was supposed to be a secret location, but a mob showed up with guns and started shooting.
Every cloud has a cloudy lining. The assassination has at least one Guardian blogger screeching for censorship (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2012/sep/12/libya-anti-muhammad-youtube-clips).
To be fair the clip in question (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmodVun16Q4) is so mind numbingly retarded that someone really ought to have been killed over it. Albeit on artistic, rather than religious grounds.
Looks like Islamist militants let the mob flush the Ambassador from the building, then used rockets or some kind of grenades, depending on who you read, kill them while they were enroute to the safe house, still in the car. Obviously, your average angry mob does not have access to that kind of firepower, not even in Libya.
Who the hell is meant to be in charge of security in that city? I know the Libyan government would have trouble fielding more than a couple of thousand men without begging to some Islamist militant outfit or another for help, but seriously, you'd think at the very least, the US Ambassador would be a pretty high priority for protection. That's why this appears to be some kind of terrorist attack, and not just an outraged mob who went too far.
LMNO, I suspect the Ambassador's general travel plans were publically known. As for the film...incidental. It helped move matters along, but even without it, I suspect he would have been a target. Libyan militants fought in large numbers in Iraq, it should be remembered. After Iraqi militants, they made up the single largest nationality there, and many of those, upon re-entering Libya, were arrested and tortured by the Gaddafi regime. They have no reason to love the US, and consider the downfall of the regime in Libya to have more to do with their efforts than the pathetic NATO campaign.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 12, 2012, 05:32:58 PM
Or, it was like, "Hey Sam*, check out this YouTube video some cracker in the US posted. If we leak it, that'll give us cover."
*His name could have been Sam, or it could have been Omar, or it could have been Sally. Who's to say?
Ironically, the guy who made the movie's name is Sam. :lulz:
(Mentioned here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444426404577647060576633348.html), a few paragraphs from the bottom.)
Once again, Cain is infallible. CNN just announced someone said the attack was "planned".
Of course, maybe saying that benefits them? "It was Turrurizt" rather than "we dun pissed off th' moozlimz agin."
Whaddaya think? Is it better politically to say the ambassador was whacked rather than killed in a riot?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 12, 2012, 09:40:09 PM
Once again, Cain is infallible. CNN just announced someone said the attack was "planned".
Of course, maybe saying that benefits them? "It was Turrurizt" rather than "we dun pissed off th' moozlimz agin."
Whaddaya think? Is it better politically to say the ambassador was whacked rather than killed in a riot?
I'd guess Romney would prefer the "ambassador was whacked" story, if only so he could pounce on Obama about failing to protect all Americans from terrorists, or something. Obama probably doesn't benefit either way. I do think it's weird that Romney is flinging shit about the State Department's response along the lines of "It's too bad we pissed off some nutjobs," but it's more of the same old thing Republicans always bitch about (America can do no wrong, it's always somebody else who started it, etc. etc.). Anyway I'd expect the line of attack to be directed more at the lack of security and preparedness in an effort to chip away at Obama's foreign policy credibility.
And....just a day late, Foreign Affairs is having a "Libya Special" tomorrow.
Mostly reprints, but hopefully in conjunction with todays events, and being easily accessible in one place, people will pay attention to what is quickly becoming Afghanistan-on-the-Med.
I cant find the full version anywhere but this is the video that most people saw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qmodVun16Q4
What gets me is the really weird dubbing at inappropriate times, a lot of it seems to be dubbing in Islamic stuff. Just look at 6:34. And if the film really is made by a Christian film company why is there scene where Muhhamed buries his face between his wifes legs? It almost seems like a scene from a really bad porn film.
And its creator has gone into hiding.
Incidentally, even the Israeli Foreign Ministry has condemned the film and disassociated itself from the creator(s).
And Romney has really screwed up. Senior Republicans are referring to this as his "Lehman moment". If nothing else, his comments show the utter shamelessness and opportunism that makes up Mitt Romney's ambitions. The guy's not even cold in the ground and Romney is trying to parade his corpse around as proof of Obama's inability to rule over the foreign savages.
And that it's not just the usual Dem hacks saying that is why it is important.
I get that Mitt's first comment was before the killing, but the fact that he kept going really underscores his complete inability to understand reality, even tangentially.
His incentives are driven by internal party politics, which no longer match up too well with "getting elected President" politics.
Even before this, voters from across the spectrum felt Mitt Romney was weak on foreign policy knowledge and skill. Now, this doesn't matter too much in and of itself, as foreign policy is not a top voting concern for the public. However, expertise at foreign policy does fit the idea of what a President should be like, and showing a lack of knowledge concerning it has a secondary effect of undermining his overall qualifications for looking like a President.
In many people's eyes, this will confirm Romney's lack of ability and judgement.
Al-Qaeda? I know, I know, AQ are responsible for everything from SARS to the assassination of George Bush's cat, but this is rather suggestive timing:
http://news.yahoo.com/al-qaeda-leader-zawahiri-confirms-death-abu-yahya-040815471.html
Essentially, that's Zawahiri, calling on Libyans to take revenge for the death of Abu Yahya al-Libi. The video was released on Monday.
Well, shit
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/sep/13/libya-attack-us-ambassador-aftermath-live
The US Embassy in Yemen was stormed by protestors, though only temporarily.
Morocco, Sudan and Tunisia are also experiencing large protests. The usual Iranian rent-a-mob are protesting outside the Swiss Embassy in Tehran (since the Swiss represent US interests in the country). Hamid Karzai has convinced himself that Afghanistan will collapse if he goes to a summit in Norway, though it's probably more that Karzai hates being lectured at about silly things like "fair elections" and "human rights" by NATO. Pakistan is expecting protests later today, an Iraqi militia has threatened US interests in the country and there are calls for the film-makers to be punished in Bangladesh, by protestors there.
Interesting to see that so few westen so-called "liberals" believe Muslims have any agency at all. No, Muslims are totally not responsible for their own actions in regards to a film. The film made them do it, man, they had no choice.
On the other hand, it's interesting to note western conservatives believe that there is no culpability at all on the behalf of "Sam Bacile". Because, of course, there are no recent historical examples of Muslims reacting badly to the Prophet being called a terrorist paedophile rapist. How was anyone to know?
More seriously, let's look at this "Sam Bacile". He claims to be an Israeli Jew, with the backing and funding of other Israeli Jews. Yet the film was made in America. Attempts to contact Bacile at his American phone number lead to Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, who according to Federal documents uses the aliases of Nicola Bacily and Erwin Salameh, among others. Nakoula has previous fraud convictions.
The film also had the heavy involvement of Steve Klein, a Christian activist heavily involved in the anti-Islamist scene, who often stages protests outside of mosques and schools, and has fantasies about uncovering California based Al-Qaeda cells. Klein is also involved with the Christian Guardians, who have a compound in central California where they undertake "Biblical Warfare training". Klein also has links to the "counterjihadist movement", in particular Pam Geller and Robert Spencer.
So, it looks strongly like Innocence of the Muslims was purposefully designed to get both Muslims and Jews embroiled in fighting each other (hence the false claim about the film maker's origins) by Christian extremists who care little for either.
Looks like the Stiftung Leo Strauss (http://www.stiftungleostrauss.com/bunker/death-of-an-ambassador-the-u-s-in-a-ring-of-fire/) agrees with me, that the film was mostly incidental to the Benghazi assassination:
QuoteContrary to many media outlets, we're not convinced the infamous anti-Mohammed YouTube video proximately caused the deaths and riots. We believe local politics and intrigues played the key roles and the video used as an excuse or cover; blaming a video helps create an easily understandable overarching explanatory narrative. Comforting but unhelpful.
For example, in Cairo a handful of long-standing militant Islamists protesting outside of the embassy for months took advantage of momentary confusion to climb the embassy walls and plant their black flag. The next day, the Egyptian government eventually restored order. That delay raises worrying signals about the new Egyptian government's intent.
In Benghazi it increasingly looks like an armed faction opposed to liberal democratic process pre-planned a coordinated guerrilla assault with mortars, RPGs and artillery fire. That now famous YouTube video clip mocking Mohammed at most served as cover and distraction. Attackers knew routines and consulate layout. Contrary to Neocon claims Libyans dragged deceased Americans through the streets, U.S. officials report 10 Libyans died defending the consulate and others hand carried the U.S victims to the hospital.
That said, I worry that linking the film with the assassination will increase the interest in the film, while associating it with that kind of violence and so could help promote similar attempts in other countries.
Muslim extremists are a dangerous kind of retarded.
Calling them on it is invoking a retard shitstorm.
Not calling them on it is submission to tyranny.
What to do?
On one hand censorship is wrong. I don't think it's ever the right thing to do?
On the other hand should you just stand by and do nothing while one faction of religious retards annoys another faction of religious retards to the point where proper people get killed over it?
My stance on book burning is wavering. It always does when I think about the bible or the koran
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 14, 2012, 09:44:34 AM
Muslim extremists are a dangerous kind of retarded.
Calling them on it is invoking a retard shitstorm.
Not calling them on it is submission to tyranny.
What to do?
On one hand censorship is wrong. I don't think it's ever the right thing to do?
On the other hand should you just stand by and do nothing while one faction of religious retards annoys another faction of religious retards to the point where proper people get killed over it?
My stance on book burning is wavering. It always does when I think about the bible or the koran
It's a symbolic gesture of wilful ignorance. For example Mien Kampff written by a deluded maniac who through political means caused huge atrocities, there is a lot to be learned from that. Even if you despise them the Koran and bible are useful. For instance The Koran has some of the only documented information on Alexander the Greats escapades into the east.
Quote from: Faust on September 14, 2012, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 14, 2012, 09:44:34 AM
Muslim extremists are a dangerous kind of retarded.
Calling them on it is invoking a retard shitstorm.
Not calling them on it is submission to tyranny.
What to do?
On one hand censorship is wrong. I don't think it's ever the right thing to do?
On the other hand should you just stand by and do nothing while one faction of religious retards annoys another faction of religious retards to the point where proper people get killed over it?
My stance on book burning is wavering. It always does when I think about the bible or the koran
It's a symbolic gesture of wilful ignorance. For example Mien Kampff written by a deluded maniac who through political means caused huge atrocities, there is a lot to be learned from that. Even if you despise them the Koran and bible are useful. For instance The Koran has some of the only documented information on Alexander the Greats escapades into the east.
Yeah, I hear ya. The books themselves are just a collection of historical notes jumbled up with fairy tales. It's the readership I really want to burn :evil:
The problem isn't calling them out.
It's doing so in a way calculated to cause a shitstorm.
"Jesus probably wasn't really the Son of God" = valid criticism. "Jesus was a depraved sodomite and serial killer, like an ancient Jewish Jeffry Dahmer", not really rocking the historical evidence.
"Mohammed probably wasn't really the Prophet, and said some stuff that, by modern day standards, is pretty fucked up" = valid criticism. "Mohammed is a baby raping terrorist and paedophile", pretty much inviting a shitstorm.
It's not a matter of legality here, it's a matter of common sense and judgement. Can you say those things? If you like. Is it a good idea? Not particularly, based on recent historical evidence. Should people call you out on your dangerous act of stupidity? Absolutely.
I also don't think "calling out tyranny" counts when you pal around with people who want to create a home-grown tyranny. Undermines the rebellion credentials, you know?
Disagree. I see the baby raping Jesus as legitimate satire. But, again there's the wisdom in thinking about what happens. This is where the christfags don't seem as bad as the turbaniacs. A while ago I did Baby Jesus show, assured that probably nothing would happen other than a bunch of retards might get pissed off.
Ep2, however I was planning to unleash mohammedalek
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/P3nT4gR4m/Mohammed.jpg)
and Allah Akbar
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/P3nT4gR4m/AdmiralAllah.jpg)
I remember thinking at the time - is this worth it for a cheap laugh? People might be killed. I might be killed. And yeah it'll be the retards fault but, when it comes down to it, I'll have given them another excuse to be retarded.
At the same time the other half of me, the middle finger waving half, was thinking fuck these idiots. They deserve nothing more than to be ridiculed and annoyed.
Christians just tend to fly lower on the radar and pick their battles more carefully. Especially in Europe and North America, they prefer to act through their linked political groups, which give them a measure of political power.
In the Middle East, outside of Iran, the people most likely to take offence to such things don't have the legal power to do anything about it. Hence, violence.
German Embassy attacked in Sudan (BBC).
American embassy in India also (#Anonymous).
Um... Allah Ackbar is AWESOME.
Bomb threat at University of Texas at Austin, 8:30AM.
I have a horrible feeling that this is all spiralling out of control.
Well, I sure hope that Israeli living in America who made that dumb video is proud of himself.
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2012, 04:55:06 PM
Well, I sure hope that Israeli living in America who made that dumb video is proud of himself.
He's not Israeli. He lied. See my earlier post. This is a video made with the backing of a Christian fundamentalist linked to the militia movement.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2012, 04:55:06 PM
Well, I sure hope that Israeli living in America who made that dumb video is proud of himself.
He's not Israeli. He lied. See my earlier post. This is a video made with the backing of a Christian fundamentalist linked to the militia movement.
Lol.
Sorry, I actually laughed, because it just seems totally fucking absurd at this point.
Fuck. Fuck us ALL.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2012, 04:55:06 PM
Well, I sure hope that Israeli living in America who made that dumb video is proud of himself.
He's not Israeli. He lied. See my earlier post. This is a video made with the backing of a Christian fundamentalist linked to the militia movement.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/sam_bacile_film_embassy_attacks.php?ref=fpblg
These guys seem to agree.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 04:54:56 PM
I have a horrible feeling that this is all spiralling out of control.
Gunfire inside the US embassy in the Sudan. German and UK embassies also under siege. 50 US Marines en route to Sudan (not enough to help, but a perfect sacrificial size). KFC torched (WTF?).
Now they're going after the Colonel. That ain't right.
At least in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood have come out calling for explicity peaceful demonstrations, and are holding their march a good degree back from the US Embassy.
It's not much, but it's a welcome sign of restraint and good will.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:07:09 PM
At least in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood have come out calling for explicity peaceful demonstrations, and are holding their march a good degree back from the US Embassy.
It's not much, but it's a welcome sign of restraint and good will.
Yeah, but it's everywhere else. Even India.
My money says the Indian police come down on that like a ton of bricks.
So are we having WWIII or not?
University in North Dakota evacuated after bomb threat.
Tucson has a large Muslim population, but everything is quiet here. Mostly because it's Tuscon. Why get excited? It's HOT.
The MB in Egypt have significant cultural hold over the larger Middle East. I don't think they have enough sway to change things on their own, but their influence will certainly contribute to moderating things.
And yeah, the Indian police won't mess around. In fact, they'll probably pre-emptively raid half a dozen mosques, just to make a point.
All this is going to take is one idiot in a European or American city to get really, really ugly. Because that one idiot will cause a reaction, the said reaction being led by other idiots, and the whole thing will escalate, with people taking one side or the other and attempting to pre-empt their opposites. Fast. Like, London riots fast.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
The MB in Egypt have significant cultural hold over the larger Middle East. I don't think they have enough sway to change things on their own, but their influence will certainly contribute to moderating things.
And yeah, the Indian police won't mess around. In fact, they'll probably pre-emptively raid half a dozen mosques, just to make a point.
All this is going to take is one idiot in a European or American city to get really, really ugly. Because that one idiot will cause a reaction, the said reaction being led by other idiots, and the whole thing will escalate, with people taking one side or the other and attempting to pre-empt their opposites. Fast. Like, London riots fast.
Yep. Sometime today.
Something going on between Syria & Lebanon, Cain?
American embassy stormed in Yemen.
ATTN, PDers: BUNKER IS FULL. NO ROOM FOR YOU AND YOUR POOP-FILLED PANCE.
Hah, joke's on you, my parents have a bunker in Jerusalem where I get to stay but all y'all don't!
OTOH, joke's on me, because it's in Jerusalem. :(
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 14, 2012, 05:24:36 PM
Something going on between Syria & Lebanon, Cain?
Usually lots, but I cannot think of anything specific at the moment. Hezbollah have been showing a great deal of restraint lately.
It is possible Syrian instability could spill over into Lebanon, but the military power disparity there is such that Hezbollah could probably enforce a settlement of its choosing, which would give it far more political power than it currently has, under the existing system.
I remember when thumbing through Nir Rosen's Aftermath, that Lebanese sectarian relations were about on a par with Iraq's. Lots of conspiracy theories about Shia being in league with Iran, Sunnis being in league with the Saudis, everyone being in league with Al-Qaeda and a worrying amount of sectarian militias running about the place, helping to fan the flames. Given how close Lebanon's social situation is to Syria, I would not be surprised to find increased tension.
But I admit I have not really been looking at the country for the past couple of years.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:38:43 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 14, 2012, 05:24:36 PM
Something going on between Syria & Lebanon, Cain?
Usually lots, but I cannot think of anything specific at the moment. Hezbollah have been showing a great deal of restraint lately.
It is possible Syrian instability could spill over into Lebanon, but the military power disparity there is such that Hezbollah could probably enforce a settlement of its choosing, which would give it far more political power than it currently has, under the existing system.
I remember when thumbing through Nir Rosen's Aftermath, that Lebanese sectarian relations were about on a par with Iraq's. Lots of conspiracy theories about Shia being in league with Iran, Sunnis being in league with the Saudis, everyone being in league with Al-Qaeda and a worrying amount of sectarian militias running about the place, helping to fan the flames. Given how close Lebanon's social situation is to Syria, I would not be surprised to find increased tension.
But I admit I have not really been looking at the country for the past couple of years.
I just heard a whiff of this listening to CNN's running fear-fest. Something about violence at the border. 90% chance it's bullshit, just like their confusion between "Muslim Brotherhood" and "Muslim".
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 14, 2012, 05:36:13 PM
ATTN, PDers: BUNKER IS FULL. NO ROOM FOR YOU AND YOUR POOP-FILLED PANCE.
I have enough cartons of orange juice in my office to outlast the zombie apocalypse. No, seriously, because our people keep overdelivering goods, I have an entire fridge, plus several boxes in the bathroom, just full of orange juice. There has to be at least 500 in there, in total.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:40:40 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 14, 2012, 05:36:13 PM
ATTN, PDers: BUNKER IS FULL. NO ROOM FOR YOU AND YOUR POOP-FILLED PANCE.
I have enough cartons of orange juice in my office to outlast the zombie apocalypse. No, seriously, because our people keep overdelivering goods, I have an entire fridge, plus several boxes in the bathroom, just full of orange juice. There has to be at least 500 in there, in total.
Well, no scurvy, then...One less thing, eh?
Well fuck. At least I know the topic of discussion tomorrow at drill.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 14, 2012, 05:40:29 PM
I just heard a whiff of this listening to CNN's running fear-fest. Something about violence at the border. 90% chance it's bullshit, just like their confusion between "Muslim Brotherhood" and "Muslim".
Well, the KFC in Tripoli got sacked, I know that much. Oh, and a Krispy Kreme, though they probably deserved it, for having a stupid name. And then soldiers shot the rioters.
Oh, and the Pope is there. Which is always helpful.
I believe the border gets shelled on a semi-regular basis by Loyalist forces. There is a lot of back and forth in weapons and people across the border. Unfortunately, artillery fire does not respect international boundaries.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:45:27 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 14, 2012, 05:40:29 PM
I just heard a whiff of this listening to CNN's running fear-fest. Something about violence at the border. 90% chance it's bullshit, just like their confusion between "Muslim Brotherhood" and "Muslim".
Well, the KFC in Tripoli got sacked, I know that much. Oh, and a Krispy Kreme, though they probably deserved it, for having a stupid name. And then soldiers shot the rioters.
Oh, and the Pope is there. Which is always helpful.
I believe the border gets shelled on a semi-regular basis by Loyalist forces. There is a lot of back and forth in weapons and people across the border. Unfortunately, artillery fire does not respect international boundaries.
It's always good news when Emperor Palpatine shows up.
It's not like the Pope, who once famously referred to Islam as "evil and inhuman" will cause the situation to get any worse, right?
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:49:43 PM
It's not like the Pope, who once famously referred to Islam as "evil and inhuman" will cause the situation to get any worse, right?
What can go wrong?
Way I see it, the pope gets bagged, then grab your ass and cancel Christmas.
Jesus, I was in a finance thing today and missed most of this. fucking hell.
Also
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:49:43 PM
It's not like the Pope, who once famously referred to Islam as "evil and inhuman" will cause the situation to get any worse, right?
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:49:43 PM
All this is going to take is one idiot
Quote from: Faust on September 14, 2012, 05:52:08 PM
Jesus, I was in a finance thing today and missed most of this. fucking hell.
Also
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:49:43 PM
It's not like the Pope, who once famously referred to Islam as "evil and inhuman" will cause the situation to get any worse, right?
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 05:49:43 PM
All this is going to take is one idiot
:lulz:
Now our embassy in Tunis has been trashed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Cain...Embassadors are supposed to be sacrosanct in Islamic tradition, aren't they?
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 14, 2012, 06:03:11 PM
Now our embassy in Tunis has been trashed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Cain...Embassadors are supposed to be sacrosanct in Islamic tradition, aren't they?
I'm not entirely sure, but I know where to check to find out. I do know that Ottoman diplomatic practices differed significantly from European ones, but the Ottomans were weird anyway. Steppe peoples always have funny traditions.
Or...at least, I thought I knew where to look. I have a particular book in mind, which details the entire history of diplomatic relations and international law. Only, I can't remember what it is called, only that it had an odd name. Given the several thousand files in that particular folder, this could take some time.
OK, I gave in and used Google Scholar.
As it happens, someone who is an emissary from a foreign power is free to enter Islamic lands, and upon doing so will be appointed a guide to show him to the capital city.
There is no strict law of diplomatic immunity, however. While it was normally observed, if the emissary failed in their mission (in ancient Islamic lands, there were no permament ambassadors, they were sent on a treaty by treaty basis), under certain conditions they could be executed.
My source doesn't go into detail about what those conditions are, but it would be very easy to believe, especially after watching that idiotic video, that the US is "at war" with Islam. And indeed, in several countries there is a literal state of war between Islamist groups and the USA.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 06:54:44 PM
OK, I gave in and used Google Scholar.
As it happens, someone who is an emissary from a foreign power is free to enter Islamic lands, and upon doing so will be appointed a guide to show him to the capital city.
There is no strict law of diplomatic immunity, however. While it was normally observed, if the emissary failed in their mission (in ancient Islamic lands, there were no permament ambassadors, they were sent on a treaty by treaty basis), under certain conditions they could be executed.
My source doesn't go into detail about what those conditions are, but it would be very easy to believe, especially after watching that idiotic video, that the US is "at war" with Islam. And indeed, in several countries there is a literal state of war between Islamist groups and the USA.
Oh, well, then...At least there's precedent. Mustn't grumble.
I'm pretty sure all those nations also signed the 1961 Vienna Convention, however, which said storming embassies and killing diplomats was Not Cool.
I'm also 99% sure the mobs on the street are not versed in the history of Islamic diplomatic protocol, and are probably pissed about drone attacks or the banking system or their shitty boss, or Jersey Shore existing or something.
Oh ho HO!
Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, aka "Sam Bacila" allegedly had a prohibition against using computers or the internet without permission from his parole officer for five years, due to his conviction for bank fraud charges.
Since he was convicted in 2010, these prohibitions would still be in force
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 07:03:28 PM
I'm pretty sure all those nations also signed the 1961 Vienna Convention, however, which said storming embassies and killing diplomats was Not Cool.
I'm also 99% sure the mobs on the street are not versed in the history of Islamic diplomatic protocol, and are probably pissed about drone attacks or the banking system or their shitty boss, or Jersey Shore existing or something.
Ah. They hate our freedoms.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 07:08:04 PM
Oh ho HO!
Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, aka "Sam Bacila" allegedly had a prohibition against using computers or the internet without permission from his parole officer for five years, due to his conviction for bank fraud charges.
Since he was convicted in 2010, these prohibitions would still be in force
HAW HAW!
Quoting verbatim for the conspiracy board on FB.
The Independent has some meat on what went down in Benghazi
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html
QuoteThe killings of the US ambassador to Libya and three of his staff were likely to have been the result of a serious and continuing security breach, The Independent can reveal.
American officials believe the attack was planned, but Chris Stevens had been back in the country only a short while and the details of his visit to Benghazi, where he and his staff died, were meant to be confidential.
The US administration is now facing a crisis in Libya. Sensitive documents have gone missing from the consulate in Benghazi and the supposedly secret location of the "safe house" in the city, where the staff had retreated, came under sustained mortar attack. Other such refuges across the country are no longer deemed "safe".
Some of the missing papers from the consulate are said to list names of Libyans who are working with Americans, putting them potentially at risk from extremist groups, while some of the other documents are said to relate to oil contracts.
According to senior diplomatic sources, the US State Department had credible information 48 hours before mobs charged the consulate in Benghazi, and the embassy in Cairo, that American missions may be targeted, but no warnings were given for diplomats to go on high alert and "lockdown", under which movement is severely restricted.
So it looks like the Americans were betrayed by an inside source. I would not want to be that source when the CIA catches up with them.
The theft of documents is interesting, too. Libyans working with the American government and oil contracts. Very specific. Very useful and, in the latter case, potentially very lucrative.
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 07:51:49 PM
The Independent has some meat on what went down in Benghazi
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html
QuoteThe killings of the US ambassador to Libya and three of his staff were likely to have been the result of a serious and continuing security breach, The Independent can reveal.
American officials believe the attack was planned, but Chris Stevens had been back in the country only a short while and the details of his visit to Benghazi, where he and his staff died, were meant to be confidential.
The US administration is now facing a crisis in Libya. Sensitive documents have gone missing from the consulate in Benghazi and the supposedly secret location of the "safe house" in the city, where the staff had retreated, came under sustained mortar attack. Other such refuges across the country are no longer deemed "safe".
Some of the missing papers from the consulate are said to list names of Libyans who are working with Americans, putting them potentially at risk from extremist groups, while some of the other documents are said to relate to oil contracts.
According to senior diplomatic sources, the US State Department had credible information 48 hours before mobs charged the consulate in Benghazi, and the embassy in Cairo, that American missions may be targeted, but no warnings were given for diplomats to go on high alert and "lockdown", under which movement is severely restricted.
So it looks like the Americans were betrayed by an inside source. I would not want to be that source when the CIA catches up with them.
The theft of documents is interesting, too. Libyans working with the American government and oil contracts. Very specific. Very useful and, in the latter case, potentially very lucrative.
Yep. But I don't see the CIA catching up with them.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 14, 2012, 07:09:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 14, 2012, 07:08:04 PM
Oh ho HO!
Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, aka "Sam Bacila" allegedly had a prohibition against using computers or the internet without permission from his parole officer for five years, due to his conviction for bank fraud charges.
Since he was convicted in 2010, these prohibitions would still be in force
HAW HAW!
Quoting verbatim for the conspiracy board on FB.
I have something even better than that.
Nakoula Basseley Nakoula was a federal informant.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/pcp/
QuoteBefore he was involved in the making of a noxious video that provided an excuse for anti-American riots in the Middle East, and before he was convicted of federal bank fraud, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula was arrested on charges relating to the making of angel dust.
Court records reviewed by Danger Room show that Nakoula and a co-defendant were brought before the Los Angeles County Superior Courthouse in Downey, California on April 15, 1997. They were charged with possessing the narcotic's chemical precursors with "the intent to manufacture phencyclidine," otherwise known as angel dust or PCP.
In the latest in a series of odd revelations about the man thought to be at center of a viral video, "The Innocence of Muslims," which has been publicly seized upon by people in Libya, Egypt, and Tunisia as a reason to attack U.S. embassies. At least four American government employees have been killed during the confrontations. And that's brought enormous scrutiny to Nakoula, an Egyptian immigrant and gas station owner, who has alternatively confirmed and denied a role in the making of "Innocence."
In recent days, we've learned that Nakoula used 14 different aliases — including "P.J. Tobacco" and "Kritbag Difrat" — in a complex check kiting scheme. We've learned that Nakoula was sentenced to 21 months in federal custody for the affair. According to The Smoking Gun, Nakoula was released from the the United States Penitentiary in Lompoc, California in September, 2010. He spent the following nine months in and out of a halfway house in Long Beach. Unnamed officials tell ABC News he wrote the script for the film, which depicts the prophet Muhammad as a thug and a child molester, while in prison.
The punishment was relatively gentle, even though it wasn't Nakoula's first encounter with the law. That's because Nakoula had decided to become a federal informant.
"I am sorry for what happened. Now I know it was wrong. I decide to cooperate with the government to retrieve some of those mistakes," Nakoula told Judge Christina Snyder in June of 2010, according to a sentencing transcript obtained by The Smoking Gun.
QuoteConfirmed: The Director of 'Innocence of Muslims' Is a Schlocky Softcore Porn Director Named Alan Roberts
An Alan Roberts is listed as director on the film's casting calls and call sheets from the summer of 2011, back when it was innocuously called Desert Warriors.. Castmembers and crew told us yesterday that Roberts was brought on by producer "Sam Bacile" aka Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, and he muddled his way through a disorganized three-month shoot.
This is the same Alan Roberts listed in IMDB as the director of a handful of softcore porn movies and other low-budget films, according to acquaintances we spoke to today.
"I am sure it was the same Alan Roberts, as I remember him speaking about this project," said filmmaker David A. Prior, a longtime acquaintance of Roberts, in an email. Roberts is listed as a producer on two of Prior's films, 2008's Zombie Wars and 2007's Lost at War.
"He did work on [Innocence of Muslims]," confirmed a man who was Roberts' business partner in a post-production facility he ran, who asked not to be named.
The backstory behind how Roberts became director of Innocence of Muslims is still unclear, like so many things about the film. We've tried to reach Roberts, but his business associate told us he "turned off his phone" soon after protests broke out over the film and is laying low. But he said Roberts was "non-political" and did not have any apparent anti-Islam feelings. Roberts may have been duped by the film's producer in much the same way as the rest of the cast and crew. They believed they were participating in a period piece about ancient Egypt and had no idea the movie would be edited and dubbed into a piece of Islamophobic propaganda.
So almost no one involved in the making of this film knew what it actually was.
Whoa...
Quote from: Prince Glittersnatch III on September 16, 2012, 02:56:01 AM
QuoteConfirmed: The Director of 'Innocence of Muslims' Is a Schlocky Softcore Porn Director Named Alan Roberts
An Alan Roberts is listed as director on the film's casting calls and call sheets from the summer of 2011, back when it was innocuously called Desert Warriors.. Castmembers and crew told us yesterday that Roberts was brought on by producer "Sam Bacile" aka Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, and he muddled his way through a disorganized three-month shoot.
This is the same Alan Roberts listed in IMDB as the director of a handful of softcore porn movies and other low-budget films, according to acquaintances we spoke to today.
"I am sure it was the same Alan Roberts, as I remember him speaking about this project," said filmmaker David A. Prior, a longtime acquaintance of Roberts, in an email. Roberts is listed as a producer on two of Prior's films, 2008's Zombie Wars and 2007's Lost at War.
"He did work on [Innocence of Muslims]," confirmed a man who was Roberts' business partner in a post-production facility he ran, who asked not to be named.
The backstory behind how Roberts became director of Innocence of Muslims is still unclear, like so many things about the film. We've tried to reach Roberts, but his business associate told us he "turned off his phone" soon after protests broke out over the film and is laying low. But he said Roberts was "non-political" and did not have any apparent anti-Islam feelings. Roberts may have been duped by the film's producer in much the same way as the rest of the cast and crew. They believed they were participating in a period piece about ancient Egypt and had no idea the movie would be edited and dubbed into a piece of Islamophobic propaganda.
So almost no one involved in the making of this film knew what it actually was.
This makes complete sense then. My first thought while watching the vid was how horrible it was about it's cuts and dubbing. In some cases the dubbing was over an expression on the talent that seemed inconsistent. I'd watch it again and critique specifics, but some things aren't worth doing twice. Not even for science.
Well, this is certainly unusual, but not in any way bad.
A pro-American protest has broken out in the Middle East. Not only that, the pro-American protestors then stormed a militia compound.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/libyans-march-against-militias-after-attack
QuoteBENGHAZI, Libya (AP) — Hundreds of protesters angry over last week's killing of the U.S. ambassador to Libya stormed the compound of the Islamic extremist militia suspected in the attack, evicting militiamen and setting fire to their building Friday.
In an unprecedented show of public anger at Libya's rampant militias, the crowd overwhelmed the compound of the Ansar al-Shariah Brigade in the center of the eastern city of Benghazi.
Ansar al-Shariah fighters initially fired in the air to disperse the crowd, but eventually abandoned the site with their weapons and vehicles after it was overrun by waves of protesters shouting "No to militias."
"I don't want to see armed men wearing Afghani-style clothes stopping me in the street to give me orders, I only want to see people in uniform," said Omar Mohammed, a university student who took part in the takeover of the site, which protesters said was done in support of the army and police.
No deaths were reported in the incident, which came after tens of thousands marched in Benghazi against armed militias. One vehicle was also burned at the compound.
Wow. Tired of strict ideology and just want security and oil money to start flowing in again I guess.
If you read further down the link, you'll notice people in Dirna - a famously devout city - are also sick of the salafist militias. One guy essentially says they're devout, good people, they don't need thugs with Kalashnikovs bullying everyone. And even if they did, building a state comes first, shariah has to come after that.
Here's a little piece that came to me through Facebook.
It's a letter from an actress involved in this clusterfuck of a film. It was posted as a favor by Neil Gaiman on his personal journal site.
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2012/09/a-letter-from-scared-actress.html (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2012/09/a-letter-from-scared-actress.html)
QuoteMonday, September 17, 2012
A Letter from a Scared Actress.
Posted by Neil at 7:43 AM
A few years ago, a message came in to this website on the FAQ line from a young actress from Georgia (the one from the former USSR, not the State with Atlanta in it) called Anna Gurji. She sent a link to her webpage and to films she had made in Georgia, and told me she was a fan, and if she ever came to the US, she would want to be in something of mine.
She made it to the US, and although she has never been in something of mine, she read the female lead (with Wil Wheaton as the male lead) in the first read-through of Michael Reaves' film BLOOD KISS. I was not there as a writer. I was there because I will actually act in it, playing a Hollywood director with a dark secret. So I've acted with Anna and spent time with her. She's a good sort.
She wrote to me the other day, worried.
She said,
Something very bad happened. I desperately need everyone's help right now.
I don't know how to start writing this letter. It's crazy, the world is.. life.. I'm so shattered right now, I don't know.. I feel very dead inside.
Last summer I auditioned for an indie low budget feature movie and I landed a supporting role. The movie was about a comet falling into a desert and ancient tribes fighting over it for they thought that the comet had some magical powers.
A year later, the movie was dubbed (without the actors' permission), the lines were changed drastically and the movie was morphed into an Anti-Islam film. Even the names of the characters were changed. And the character I had scenes with GEORGE became MUHAMMAD.
I really need your advice right now? How can I have my voice shown to the world so that I can tell them the real story.
All these media people that keep calling me are using my real story and then chopping or manipulating the interview the way they want to.
I don't know what to do. It's very scary, Neil.
I told her to write her story for me, to say what she wanted, and I would put it up here for her, as she wrote it, to get her message to the world. The best weapon against lies is the truth, after all.
So here's what Anna knows about the truth:
Everyone who wishes to find out the truth about the movie now known as the Innocence of Muslims, please read the letter below. I, Anna Gurji, as one of the supporting actresses in the film will share with you what really happened.
A year ago, in the summer of 2011, I submitted my materials to various projects on the Explore Talent web-site. I received a call from the casting director of the movie "Desert Warrior", and my audition date was scheduled. I auditioned for the role of Hilary. Several days later, I was informed that I got a callback. I did the callback. Several days later, I was informed that I landed the role of Hilary in the movie called "Desert Warrior".
The filming of the movie was done in August of 2011. We were filming the movie in a studio warehouse with a green screen in Duarte, CA. The project was a low budget, independent feature movie.
The filming of the movie was beginning soon after the day I was told I got a role. The script was not sent to me. When I got to the set, I was merely provided with the scenes my character was in.
I did not consider this to be an unusual thing, seeing as I have had an experience with something like this before. I did a movie once where the script was written in a foreign language and only my parts were translated into English and accordingly, I was provided with my scenes only. Having experienced that, I thought the same thing was happening with "Desert Warrior". Aware of the fact that the supposed producer and the script-writer of the movie (known as Sam Bassil) was a foreigner (thanks to his accent), I thought that the original script was written in his native tongue and that not all scenes were translated into English. Also, the filming dates of the movie had to be rescheduled last minute to fit my schedule (I had other films to do right after the "Desert Warrior" outside CA). Because of this rushed rearrangements, I thought that the production first forgot and then did not consider it necessary to send me the script, and again - I did not find this unusual, since I knew what role I had, I knew about my character and I knew about the story of the film.
My character Hilary was a young girl who is sold (against her own free will) by her parents to a tribe leader known as GEORGE. She is one of his (most likely, the youngest) brides in the movie.
The film was about a comet falling into a desert and different tribes in ancient Egypt fighting to acquire it for they deemed that the comet possessed some supernatural powers.
The movie that we were doing in Duarte was called "Desert Warrior" and it was a fictional adventure drama. The character GEORGE was a leader of one of those tribes fighting for the comet.
There was no mention EVER by anyone of MUHAMMAD and no mention of religion during the entire time I was on the set. I am hundred percent certain nobody in the cast and nobody in the US artistic side of the crew knew what was really planned for this "Desert Warrior".
The atmosphere at the set was as friendly as possible. We all knew that we were doing an adventure drama for a very low budget financing. The director Alan Roberts even had plans that with this low budget product he would be able to get some more money to make a good quality version (by shooting it in the real desert and having better product in every category) of the "Desert Warrior".
I had interactions with the man known as Sam Bassil on the set. He was very amiable, respectful, soft-spoken, always making sure that the filming was running smoothly and everyone was satisfied. He even told me the premiere of the movie was going to happen sometime soon and I would get a good amount of tickets to invite my friends and family.
I have never been informed about the premiere after that (if it ever happened) and have not seen the final product (if there is any, except for the short one that is uploaded online).
People ask what's my reaction after seeing that.
Shock.
Two hours after I found out everything that had happened I gave Inside Edition an interview, the duration of which I could not stop crying.
I feel shattered.
People who were tricked into believing that we were making an adventure drama about a comet falling into a desert did nothing but take part in a low budget indie feature film called the "Desert Warrior" that WAS about a comet falling into a desert and tribes in ancient Egypt fighting to acquire it.
It's painful to see how our faces were used to create something so atrocious without us knowing anything about it at all. It's painful to see people being offended with the movie that used our faces to deliver lines (it's obvious the movie was dubbed) that we were never informed of, it is painful to see people getting killed for this same movie, it is painful to hear people blame us when we did nothing but perform our art in the fictional adventure movie that was about a comet falling into a desert and tribes in ancient Egypt fighting to acquire it, it's painful to be thought to be someone else when you are a completely different person.
Like I explained to Inside Edition, I feel awful.. I did not do anything but I feel awful.
I feel awful that a human being is capable of such evil. I feel awful about the lies, about the injustice, about the cruelty, about the violence, about the death of innocent people, about the pain of offended people, about the false accusations.
I don't know what else to do but speak the truth. I will not go into hiding (since I have nothing to hide), because if we don't speak the truth, there is no world worth living for.
I grew up in Georgia Republic (ex-Soviet Union), I have witnessed the strikes, protests, demonstrations, injustice, cruelty, violence in my life. I was there during the war between Russia and Georgia, sleeping in outdoor clothes and packed backpacks waiting to be bombed. And I left my country, knowing that there was no future for a film actress there (seeing as the film industry is still in the process of recovery after the collapse of the Soviet Union).
Why did I want to pursue acting? I had a role in a short film when I was thirteen. There was a scene in the movie, where my beggar character and my character's blind father were thrown off the bridge by police officers. During the filming of the scene, I was attacked by a huge lump in my throat, witnessing what the police were doing to my blind father. I wanted to cry, but knowing that my blind father would worry about me if he heard me cry, I swallowed the lump and stayed strong and did my best to defend him against the injustice. Experiencing the magic of acting (losing yourself into the character) was what had me fall in love with the craft. After a long journey and fighting to somehow get to the States, I managed to come here with my mother.
It's so difficult for an actor (especially the one from a foreign country) to begin a career. People think that once you are in the States, you have all the doors opened before you. It's not so. It's very difficult to join the union, to get an agent, to lose your accent and to land roles if you don't have connections. For four years I have been struggling to slowly move ahead and not give up. A year ago, when I got the supporting role in this indie feature film "Desert Warrior", I was so excited.
I don't understand why was this happened to me, when all I wanted to do was pursue my acting career.
I have to admit I wanted to pursue my acting career because I loved the process of transformation into a different character – a selfish reason.
A few months ago, I just finished writing a script with my father about world peace, which helped me understand something – forgive and care for your enemy. Then, I understood that there is a bigger reason for acting. When we act, we help people see all different characters that exist. When people see about all these different characters, they start to understand them. When they understand all these different characters, they come close to accepting them. When they come close to accepting them, they come close to being united. And when they come close to being united, they come close to loving and helping each other.
I was thinking about something a week ago. We are like cells in the body of Earth. Why won't we work together and support each other instead of killing and destroying each other. If cells kill each other, eventually the body will die. By always speaking the truth and supporting the world peace, I hope we will be able to save the Earth from dying.. someday.
Growing up in a family that was extremely open-minded and respectful to all the differences in the world (all the religions) and growing up peacefully with people with so many different religions around me, it is devastating for me to have my face put into something that is completely opposite of what I believe in.
I want to send my condolences to the families and friends of those who lost their lives. Everything happens for a reason, they say. I believe this is a trap of evil to separate us from our humanity. We must stay strong and not forget that violence has not been able to get us anywhere spiritually and has not been able to make the world a better place. Understanding and love will.
I am upset by this. Will post more later as I digest this and calm down some.
ETA: Hyperlink to source document
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19822253
QuoteTurkish artillery has fired on positions inside Syria after shells from Syria killed five people in a southern Turkish border town.
A woman and her three children were among those killed earlier when the shells, apparently fired by Syrian government forces, hit Akcakale.
QuoteTwo Coptic Christian children Nabil Nagy Rizk, 10, and Mina Nady Farag, 9, were arrested, Tuesday, for insulting religion in the Upper Egyptian governorate of Beni Suef, after the imam of their local mosque filed a complaint against them.
By order of the prosecution the two boys are now being held in the Beni Suef juvenile detention pending further investigation on Sunday.
Ibrahim Mohamed Ali, the village imam, accused the children of tearing up pages of the Quran.
According to Ahram Online reporter in the area, Ali initially took the children to the church and requested that the priest punish them.
Unsatisfied with the church's decision not to castigate the two boys, Ali, together with three other villagers, turned to the courts.
Nabil's father Nagy Rizk defended the action of the boys in a public statement, explaining that they are illiterate and therefore did not know the content of the papers which they found in a small white bag, as they were playing near a pile of rubbish in the street
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/54658.aspx
This caught my eye because Egyptian Media have been reporting that Coptics have been involved with 'Innocence of Muslims.'
Well, the guy who produced a film is a Copt, yeah.
The Copts are really badly treated in Egypt though, so you might see why they'd be a little pissed off. And to be perfectly honest, the Egyptian authorities treated them like this even before the film was made.
In other news, classified documents keep turning up unsecured in the Benghazi Consulate. Reporters just seem to be able to stroll in and pick them up. Possibly part of the reason behind that is the FBI hasn't actually even been to Benghazi yet, let alone secured the site.
One of the documents found suggest that the US had advanced warning of a Benghazi attack.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/29/world/africa/security-fears-hobble-inquiry-of-libya-attack.html?ref=world&pagewanted=all
QuoteSixteen days after the death of four Americans in an attack on a United States diplomatic mission here, fears about the near-total lack of security have kept F.B.I. agents from visiting the scene of the killings and forced them to try to piece together the complicated crime from Tripoli, more than 400 miles away.
[snip]
The Libyan government has advised the F.B.I. that it cannot ensure the safety of the American investigators in Benghazi. So agents have been conducting interviews from afar, relying on local Libyan authorities to help identify and arrange meetings with witnesses to the attack and working closely with the Libyans to gauge the veracity of any of those accounts.
"There's a chance we never make it in there," said a senior law enforcement official.
Also hampering the investigation is fear among Libyan witnesses about revealing their identities or accounts in front of Libyan guards protecting the American investigators, because the potential witnesses fear that other Libyans might reveal their participation and draw retribution from the attackers.
[snip]
Assigning culpability also complicates the American response. For now, the administration awaits the F.B.I. investigation and updated intelligence reports. President Obama has said the United States will bring to justice those responsible for the attacks. But there is little appetite in the White House to launch drone strikes or a Special Operations raid, like the one that killed Osama bin Laden, in yet another Muslim country.
And
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/sensitive-documents-left-behind-at-american-mission-in-libya/2012/10/03/11911498-0d7e-11e2-bd1a-b868e65d57eb_print.html
QuoteDocuments detailing weapons collection efforts, emergency evacuation protocols, the full internal itinerary of Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens's trip and the personnel records of Libyans who were contracted to secure the mission were among the items scattered across the floors of the looted compound when a Washington Post reporter and a translator visited Wednesday.
[snip]
At least one document found amid the clutter indicates that Americans at the mission were discussing the possibility of an attack in early September, just two days before the assault took place. The document is a memorandum dated Sept. 9 from the U.S. mission's security office to the 17th February Martyrs Brigade, the Libyan-government-sanctioned militia that was guarding the compound, making plans for a "quick reaction force," or QRF, that would provide security.
"In the event of an attack on the U.S. Mission," the document states, "QRF will request additional support from the 17th February Martyrs Brigade."
Other the documents detail — with names, photographs, phone numbers and other personal information — the Libyans contracted to provide security for the mission from a British-based private firm, Blue Mountain. Some of those Libyans say they now fear for their lives, and the State Department has said it shares concerns about their safety.
Looks like we're waging covert war in Syria real soon. Proper covert war, not "occasional diplomatic support and money slipped in by the CIA" stuff that is happening so far.
But, you know, Oscars, OMG Seth MacFarlane is a douchebag, etc.
Quote from: Cain on February 25, 2013, 04:36:33 PM
Looks like we're waging covert war in Syria real soon. Proper covert war, not "occasional diplomatic support and money slipped in by the CIA" stuff that is happening so far.
But, you know, Oscars, OMG Seth MacFarlane is a douchebag, etc.
Well, I don't know about the "covert" part. The USA can't keep a secret to save its ass, and the UK seems to have caught that from us (I refer to the two British soldiers who were caught playing insurgent, back in Iraq).
So we'll have a war off the books, which is slightly different.
Sheesh. I don't think that's going to end well.
It sounds a lot more profitable for one thing.
I do like the idea of the DOD with 2 sets of giant ledgers for every war. I'm probably being naive again by assuming this does not happen.
Well it'll be covert in the sense we won't actually send an army.
Just the usual assortment of intelligence paramilitaries, "training", weapons shipments, mercenaries and so on. Presumably we're doing this to get some kind of leverage over the rebels, so Saudi Arabia doesn't have a complete hold on the country by the time Assad gets bored of this/the Alawites get genocided.
Because, you know, that worked out so well with the Arab Mujahideen. Terribly grateful as a rule, those Islamist jihadis.
So this is how you run a war in a recession and still keep the consulting classes happy.
Interesting.
Quote from: Juana Go? on February 25, 2013, 04:40:13 PM
Sheesh. I don't think that's going to end well.
That's because you have no faith in the essential wisdom and benevolence of our intelligence community. This implies that you have a dangerous level of sympathy toward terrorists
1, and are perhaps even LIBERAL.
1 Admit it. You have a Mullah Omar pin up in your closet.
Quote from: Cain on February 25, 2013, 04:41:32 PM
Well it'll be covert in the sense we won't actually send an army.
Just the usual assortment of intelligence paramilitaries, "training", weapons shipments, mercenaries and so on. Presumably we're doing this to get some kind of leverage over the rebels, so Saudi Arabia doesn't have a complete hold on the country by the time Assad gets bored of this/the Alawites get genocided.
Because, you know, that worked out so well with the Arab Mujahideen. Terribly grateful as a rule, those Islamist jihadis.
You aren't expecting any level of "learning from mistakes", right?
Because I'm not.
Only for BAD terrorists.
Terrorists who fight for Saudi Arabian geopolitical interests are, on the other hand, VALIANT FREEDOM FIGHTERS. Despite, you know, also having Mullah Omar pinups on their walls.
Only someone who hates America and freedom could fail to understand that.
They must be communists.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 25, 2013, 04:47:12 PM
Quote from: Juana Go? on February 25, 2013, 04:40:13 PM
Sheesh. I don't think that's going to end well.
That's because you have no faith in the essential wisdom and benevolence of our intelligence community. This implies that you have a dangerous level of sympathy toward terrorists1, and are perhaps even LIBERAL.
1 Admit it. You have a Mullah Omar pin up in your closet.
It's not even in my closet. It's right next to my "Lenin Sweeping the World Clean" poster, out in the open.
Quote from: Juana Go? on February 25, 2013, 04:40:13 PM
Sheesh. I don't think that's going to end well.
I know, right? I mean, Seth MacFarlane
is kinda a douchebag, but no more so than anyone else at the Oscars.
So, this is quite the admission (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-syria-20130316,0,3989647.story):
Quotehe CIA has stepped up secret contingency planning to protect the United States and its allies as the turmoil expands in Syria, including collecting intelligence on Islamic extremists for the first time for possible lethal drone strikes, according to current and former U.S. officials.
President Obama has not authorized drone missile strikes in Syria, however, and none are under consideration.
The Counterterrorism Center, which runs the CIA's covert drone killing program in Pakistan and Yemen, recently shifted several targeting officers to improve intelligence collection on militants in Syria who could pose a terrorist threat, the officials said.
Reading between the lines, this says "should Assad fall, the civil war will continue". And that message is being directed at Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
Incidentally, the UK is still playing catchup. "We don't know if the rebels or if Assad used chemical weapons, but either way ITS ASSAD'S FAULT." So sayeth William Hague (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21841217). No, William, you're meant to say "this is why we need to start documenting the bad rebels for drone strikes once they collapse Assad". Get with the program.
So, how about that covert support?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/us-army-veteran-charged-with-fighting-with-al-qaida-in-syria-using-weapon-of-mass-destruction/2013/03/28/33354c02-97d7-11e2-b5b4-b63027b499de_story.html
QuoteA U.S. Army veteran, who boasted on Facebook of his military adventures with Syrian rebels, was charged Thursday with firing rocket propelled grenades as part of an attack led by an al-Qaida group against the government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
Eric Harroun, 30, of Phoenix, was charged in U.S. District Court in Alexandria with conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction — specifically, a rocket propelled grenade launcher — outside the U.S.
According to an FBI affidavit, Harroun, who served three years in the Army before being medically discharged, was engaged in military action in Syria, siding with rebel forces against the Syrian government, from January to March of this year.
Putting aside the question of what isn't a "WMD" if an RPG fits the category....very interesting.
And his father says (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JD7Ki88wwCQ) he was passing information to the CIA. Maybe, maybe not. Harroun does have some rather...uncivil things to say about Jews, which suggests a certain adoption of the jihadist worldview...but then again, who better for the CIA to send to keep an eye on the rebels than someone who fits the profile of an international jihadist?
Who did he piss off to get hauled in for that?
The wonderful thing about doing things in secret is that they're done in secret.
The FBI may have picked him up routinely, based on his activities, and the CIA for whatever reason decided not to tip their hand regarding him....if he is indeed theirs.
In Italy, most of the false-flag terrorists had prison time and criminal records and were frequently picked up by local police, because the right hand did not inform the left hand of what it was doing. Hell, we wouldn't know about Gladio if not for the Italian state investigating itself due to this need for secrecy on behalf of certain agencies, secrecy that meant not everyone in a position to investigate was informed or co-opted.
Syrian rebels likely used a chemical weapon (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9950036/Syria-chemical-weapons-finger-pointed-at-jihadists.html):
QuoteThe military's version of events is that the home-made rocket was fired at a military checkpoint situated at the entrance to the town. The immediate effects were to induce vomiting, fainting , suffocation and seizures among those in the immediate area.
A second source – a medic at the local civilian hospital – said that he personally witnessed Syrian army helping those wounded and dealing with fatalities at the scene. That Syrian soldiers were among the reported 26 deaths has not been disputed by either side.
The military source who spoke to Channel 4 News confirmed that artillery reports from the Syrian Army suggest a small rocket was fired from the vicinity of Al-Bab, a district close to Aleppo that is controlled by Jabhat al-Nusra – a jihadist group said to be linked with al-Qaeda and deemed a "terrorist organisation" by the US.
Iraq is sliding into civil war (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-civil-war-in-iraq-has-already-begun-politician-claims-conflict-has-started-and-warns-it-will-be-worse-than-syria-8601732.html). Again:
Quote
Iraqi leaders fear that the country is sliding rapidly into a new civil war which "will be worse than Syria". Baghdad residents are stocking up on rice, vegetables and other foodstuffs in case they are prevented from getting to the shops by fighting or curfews. "It is wrong to say we are getting close to a civil war," said a senior Iraqi politician. "The civil war has already started."
This is borne out by the sharp rise in the number of people killed in political violence in Iraq in April, with the UN claiming more than 700 people were killed last month, the highest monthly total for five years.
The situation has suddenly deteriorated since the killing of at least 36 Sunni Arab protesters at a sit-in in Hawijah on 23 April. An observer in Baghdad, who did not want to be named, said "ever since, Hawijah people are frightened of a return to the massacres of 2006". She added that Sunni and Shia were avoiding going into each others' areas. Signs of deteriorating security are everywhere. Al-Qa'ida showed its reach on Monday when five car bombs blew up in overwhelmingly Shia southern Iraq, leaving 21 dead. The Sunni fundamentalist group, which had a resurgence in 2012, is responsible for killing a majority of the almost 1,500 Iraqis who have died in political violence so far this year.
Its members are now able to roam freely in Anbar province where a year ago they were a secretive underground movement. In neighbouring Kirkuk, al-Qa'ida last week seized the town of Sulaiman Bec, shot the chief of police, stormed the police station and departed with their weapons after agreeing a truce with the Iraqi army.
Residents in Baghdad say that soldiers, whom they claim are Shia militiamen in uniform, have massed around Sunni enclaves in the city and are setting up checkpoints. Memories of the sectarian civil war in 2006 and 2007 when, in the worst months, some 3,000 people were butchered, may be exacerbating the sense of threat, but old fears are reawakening. Bombs have usually been directed against Shia in the past, but in recent weeks Sunni mosques and cafés are being targeted. "Before we could escape to Syria, but with the violence there where can we go?" asked one Iraqi. "There is no way out."
Looks like the Houthi rebels got bored of putting up a pretence and have now openly seized power, taking the Presidential palace in Sanaa in what is being described as a "coup".
The Houthis are Shiite, by the way, and strongly suspected to have Iranian backing. Saudi Arabia's reaction will be brutal, I am sure.
QuoteThough Turkey tolerates the Chechen refugees, many lack residence permits and live in destitute conditions under a constant risk of deportation, activists say. This life in limbo led many Chechens to acquiesce to blackmail-like pressures to join the Syrian war, according to Abrek Onlu, the slain activist's nephew and member of the Justice for Medet Committee, an advocacy group created by members of Turkey's ethnic Caucasian community.
"Not all Chechens volunteered to go to Syria. Some went there unwillingly. They were presented with two options: to go to Syria or face deportation ... Individuals who were personally the subject [of such pressure] recount confidentially how certain people would come to convey them this message," Abrek Onlu told Al-Monitor, reluctant to give further details.
Another committee member claimed Islamic civic groups in Turkey were active in the recruitment of fighters. "Some Islamic nongovernmental groups became closely involved in dispatching fighters to Syria. ... Those groups are known to have exerted influence on Chechens living both in and outside [refugee] camps to join the war," Kuban Kural told an online journal.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/11/turkey-chechen-murder-syria-link.html