Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Vanadium Gryllz on February 23, 2016, 02:54:34 PM

Title: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on February 23, 2016, 02:54:34 PM
So the date for the EU referendum has been announced. Whereupon the decision as to whether Britain will stay a part of the EU or leave to chart its own course will be decided by the masses.

I really have no idea as to what the pros and cons are for each choice. I am leaning towards 'in' right now - I think that the federalisation (is that the right word?) of Europe is probably a good thing.

Then again, I wonder how the Germans feel about that.
Also Cameron wants us to stay in and being in agreement with the Cambot makes me nervous.

I also get the sense that we're fucked either way.


What do you guys think?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 23, 2016, 03:04:50 PM
All leaving the EU accomplishes is meaning we have no say in how it is run while still having to abide by the vast majority of its rules.  Unless we want massive tariffs on all our trade in Europe.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 23, 2016, 03:44:52 PM
Doesn't it also put the UK on the Euro?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 23, 2016, 04:22:29 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 23, 2016, 03:44:52 PM
Doesn't it also put the UK on the Euro?

Nope, we have an opt-out clause for that.

Ultimately we will have to join the Euro or leave the EU at some point....but probably not for another 20+ years, at this rate.  We're still fuming about being signed up to the ECHR (despite it mostly being written by British solicitors, and being about the weakest bill of rights since the Soviet Union came into being), so that should give you an idea how we'd feel about giving up currency control and central banking privileges.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 23, 2016, 05:06:36 PM
There's also the Scottish question...since Scotland are keen to stay in the EU, if we do leave (the polls suggest we wont...but Cameron is bollocksing up the campaign), Scotland may claim that the UK has no right to unilaterlly withdraw Scotland from an organization their population wants to be a part of.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 24, 2016, 01:01:35 AM
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/meaning-brexit?force=scn%2Ffb%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Faninterviewwithianbremmer

QuoteMr Bremmer argued that:

Brexit would bring the "further marginalisation of Britain as a power with influence"
the prospects of TTIP (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) and the attractiveness of the British market would be hit "very dramatically" by Brexit
given the uncertainty about the EU's future, now is a "very bad time for a referendum"
for that reason, and given the way the state is changing, it cannot be assumed that the referendum will settle the European question
another referendum in the medium term is a possibility
in a "world with more currencies" it is entirely possible for Britain to thrive in the EU without adopting the Euro
Britain should be doing "so much more" and "everything possible" to improve its relationship with India rather than obsessing about China, for which Germany will always be the best European partner
the notion of an "incredibly overbearing" EU getting in Britain's way does not match the weak reality: "I really would not be very worried that the EU is stopping Britain from accomplishing so much"
Japan, not Britain, is best placed to sell services to the Chinese
by backing out of Europe and thus making itself a "second tier power", Britain is undermining its own attempts to attract Chinese attention and investment
it is dangerously short-termist for Brits to put "all of your eggs in the China basket"
London's concentration on winning small concessions from Brussels illustrates its lack of ambition on the world stage: "The very debate that is being had over this referendum proves my point that Britain is not as relevant as it used to be"
Britain should be looking to set Europe's course: "if you vote to stay in the EU the Brits can and should embrace a leadership role in what is a weaker Europe that needs Britain"
Brexit could put off Eurosceptics in other EU countries, because they will see how "painful" and "technically difficult to engineer" leaving the union is
Brexit would contribute to a much broader trend: the hollowing out of the transatlantic relationship and America's associated turn towards the Pacific
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on February 24, 2016, 10:47:10 AM

I think this is quite an interesting [and mercifully short and simple] Irish overview of so-called Brexit.

http://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/brexit-is-more-complicated-than-you-think-23024/?gclid=Cj0KEQiAuqC2BRDVxMSnpa-mhZoBEiQAFta8wS2smesoStqp4MTvkU97a851igrOLQVMahszM-3M3gMaAk6_8P8HAQ
QuoteWhat would happen if the UK left the European Union?
Former Irish Prime Minister John Bruton explains the different options.


In June, the people of the United Kingdom may vote to leave the European Union (EU). At the moment, a narrow majority favors remaining in the EU, but a large group is undecided. That group could swing toward a "leave" position for a variety of reasons, including what might be temporary EU problems with refugees. However temporary the reasons might be, a decision to leave would be politically irreversible.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 24, 2016, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: Cain on February 23, 2016, 03:04:50 PM
All leaving the EU accomplishes is meaning we have no say in how it is run while still having to abide by the vast majority of its rules.  Unless we want massive tariffs on all our trade in Europe.

Pretty much that.

I'd say there's also further knock on fuck-ups to come such as when there's any negotiations with serious world powers. The rugged individualist bullshit is also kicking around with many trying to convince others (and likely themselves) that we would be back to the glory days of the empire in a few years. I'd suspect the reality is that the EU and others would do their best to gut London while the other superpowers fight over the carcass. China and Russia have a serious influence now in many UK sectors (Metals, manufacturing, Energy and more) and with the subsequently weaker position will take it as a good opportunity to increase that.

I would imagine that security in general would take a hit due to the general restructuring and communication fuckups.

On a personal level, I've taken on work in a few EU countries over the past couple of years and I doubt that will get easier to do on an exit. The tax calcs as it stands are a fucking headache.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on February 24, 2016, 11:28:54 AM
ALSO "Brexit"?  BREXIT???
That is as grotesquely ridiculous as calling the Second World War Gerspansion!

ALSO I think it is significant that so many Europhobes are calling for us to return to our traditional trading relations, going back to our natural partners our Imperial colonies oops, the Commonwealth. My reading -  the movers and shakers who are the political force behind this shortsighted  strategy are interested in realigning thgeir business interests with developing nations where there is a quick buck to be made and the foot soldiers ie the millions of terrified punter who will go vote us out of Europe  are scared of being swamped by foreigners. Eorope, by definition, is full of foreigners. I would not be at all surprised to see a return of signs on rental accomodation like we used to have "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish".

ALSO I'm not hearing anyone on either side of the debate making a big deal out of the point that I see as being one of the most important issues. Quoting John Bruton again because I believe it bears repeating
QuoteIn June, the people of the United Kingdom may vote to leave the European Union (EU). At the moment, a narrow majority favors remaining in the EU, but a large group is undecided. That group could swing toward a "leave" position for a variety of reasons, including what might be temporary EU problems with refugees. However temporary the reasons might be, a decision to leave would be politically irreversible..

Fuck it, I'm so old that I voted to stay in the European Economic Community back in the 70's. That means that I remember how difficult it was to actually get to join the European club back in the day. People are wittering on about a "once in a lifetime chance to make this decision". FFS I'm not even retired yet and by the end of June I'll have voted twice on this issue. But if the little Englanders and racists get their way that wil be the end of the line for Britain in European. We have been part of the European enterprise for nearly half a century but almost the whole time we have whinged and bitched about how we are the special snowflake of Europe, we need special terms and only want to be part of the bits that we like. And after all this time we still talk about Europe as though it was an us and them situation. If we just got the fuck over ourselves and accepted that we are Europeans and have been for longer than most of this board has been alive then maybe we would stop behaving like a spoiled brat who is throwing a tantrum because somebody stole our Empire! If we fuck it up this time there is no way back

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 03, 2016, 01:02:29 PM
Well, I've been calling this for a while:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12181749/EU-referendum-France-issues-Calais-migrant-warning-over-British-EU-referendum-live.html

QuoteThe Telegraph understands Boris Johnson and George Osborne are being lined up to debate the future of Britain in the European Union in front of a 12,000-strong audience just 48 hours before the in/out referendum on June 23.
The BBC debate at Wembley Arena - the broadcaster's biggest ever "campaign event" - will be the first time that the two most likely successors to David Cameron as Tory leader have faced eachother in front of a live audience.

That will be depressing to watch. The only question is will they fling more shit at each other or just on themselves?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on March 03, 2016, 03:49:09 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on March 03, 2016, 01:02:29 PM
Well, I've been calling this for a while:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12181749/EU-referendum-France-issues-Calais-migrant-warning-over-British-EU-referendum-live.html

QuoteThe Telegraph understands Boris Johnson and George Osborne are being lined up to debate the future of Britain in the European Union in front of a 12,000-strong audience just 48 hours before the in/out referendum on June 23.
The BBC debate at Wembley Arena - the broadcaster's biggest ever "campaign event" - will be the first time that the two most likely successors to David Cameron as Tory leader have faced eachother in front of a live audience.

That will be depressing to watch. The only question is will they fling more shit at each other or just on themselves?

How will we know who wins? Judges with buzzers? Applaud-o-meter? Telephone vote?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 03, 2016, 04:09:00 PM
As I understand it, Tabloid headlines.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 03, 2016, 04:10:09 PM
Or when one successfully distends their jaw and devours the other.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 03, 2016, 05:22:18 PM
When the pig orgasms.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pæs on March 04, 2016, 01:51:36 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 04, 2016, 04:39:04 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 03, 2016, 05:22:18 PM
When the pig orgasms.

:mittens:

My god, man. The imagery is perfect.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 21, 2016, 10:41:23 AM
Hey Cain, What's your take on the IDS resignation? My inital reaction was that he had shares in Pepsi and/or it's actually a backhanded EU shot. Despite how it's being played as him "quitting over the disability cuts" a lot of his statements don't really make that explicit and I suspect it's just a useful excuse for him. Hell, given his level of incompetence, it may just be a "quit before anyone notices how fucked shit is" move.

In any event, I suspect fuckery is afoot. For reference for those not from round these parts, this is a chap that is not known for his sympathetic attitudes to disabled people or poverty.

Here's a nice run down of his record up to Jan '14. I doubt the past year-ish has seen him do much better.

http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2014/01/the-cost-of-ids-100-ways-iain-duncan.html

While some is questionable to relate directly to him, it's nice that it's all cited.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on March 21, 2016, 11:01:11 AM
Beware the I D S of March
MMIX
disabled, poor
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2016, 11:04:51 AM
Lots of people think he's angling for HomeSec in a Boris Johnson government.  Which he likely is.

I actually think it's sorta legit, too.  IDS has always been one of those moralizing, neo-Victorian types, who actually does have something of a moral sense...his economic understanding of how to solve the issues of poverty are terrible and bound up in a whole bunch of moral nonsense, but he does actually have some basic human compassion and despite completely fucking it up, he does want to help people.  He's not alone, even on the right, in thinking these cuts are completely unjustifiable.

He may also be thinking long term.  Going this hard, against a group which, as he admitted, "don't vote Tory" will provoke a backlash.  Just imagine if, say, a PM Corbyn used the complete lack of empathy on display here to justify similar punitive measures against core Tory demographics.  Even in politics, there are unspoken rules and recognised red lines.  One can certainly punish and whip the other side's supporters to a degree...but without limits, the whole thing falls apart.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 21, 2016, 11:53:50 AM
QuoteLots of people think he's angling for HomeSec in a Boris Johnson government.  Which he likely is.

Gods, that's a horrific concept. Quitting now for a potential future job does seem like a possible move though I hope it turns out to be a poor decision.

The shape of the tory party in general post EU referendum is probably going to be grim in either event. Whichever way it goes, extremists will get rewarded by a shiny new leader.


Gods, imagine it. Boris talking to Trump about anything. The shape of politics in 2017 is idiots wearing wigs screaming about the need for big walls.   
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2016, 12:14:57 PM
That's what is going to happen.  Especially if Brexit happens, but possibly even if it doesn't.

Cameron blatantly wants to appoint George Osbourne as his successor, but the party won't play ball, and Osbourne's acumen as the strategic visionary of the Tory Party is...somewhat questionable.  With so many of the Cabinet defecting from the PM's own position on Europe, he's looking especially weak and unpersuasive.  Gove, IDS, Grayling, Whittingdale, Patel...throw in an assortment of backbenches and you practically have the next Tory cabinet already formed.

And Boris of course intends to use Brexit to solidify his position as the backbencher's favourite.

So the future indeed seems to involve a lot of bad hair.  Ah well, at least there's Justin Trudeau:

(http://i.imgur.com/KaYSEqCg.jpg?1)

nevermind.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 21, 2016, 01:00:36 PM
QuoteGove, IDS, Grayling, Whittingdale, Patel...throw in an assortment of backbenches and you practically have the next Tory cabinet already formed.

Considering the possible shape of things in the next 18-ish months, I can't dismiss that as the horror story I would like to. Again, it's worse when you realise the probable alternative is the missing names of the current cabinet so it's a bleak outlook in either event.

I'm actually struggling to decide which would be worse. Incompetent evil or ideological evil?

I suspect Boris may be the slightly worse option as his ADD will put him in front of cameras and awkward social situations more frequently. This will lead to a media glut of "Look at boris being boris. Forget that he used to be a "Have I got news for you" punchline please". Osbourne seems more likely to just try and get the day over with as quickly as possible with as little fuss and attention as possible so he can get back to his pile of crack.

I should note that the last sentence may be inaccurate. It may be a "heap" or "bag" of crack, depends when his dealer was last visiting.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 05, 2016, 11:47:33 AM
Somewhat relevant:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/05/iain-duncan-smith-wept-tv-interview-ian-hislop-workers-or-shirkers

QuoteIn the programme, to be aired this Thursday, Duncan Smith's voice quivers and his eyes fill with tears when he talks about meeting a 19-year-old single mother who had given up hope of work. Saying that she reminded him of his daughter, he says: "I'm sorry I'm quite emotional about these ... 19-years-old ... My aspiration for my daughter was boundless. And here I'm sitting with a 19-year-old girl who had written off her life and had no aspiration and no self-worth. She was a product of a system."

Asked whether he tried to comfort Duncan Smith, Hislop said: "No, I just watched him cry. We're sitting in the Department for Work and Pensions talking about his desire to increase the lot of those without any privileges or start in life and he starts welling up."

I can't dismiss acting, but either way it's always nice when a pillar of the system points out that it's actually the fucking system that is causing problems.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 01, 2016, 06:04:19 PM
So, just over 3 weeks to the referendum and everything is looking like shit.

About the only person who seems intent on having an actual debate on the EU is Gary Younge...and he had to steelman several Leave arguments to do so.  The Remain camp are no better...yes, lots of people who want to vote to exit are racist, but pointing out they're racist isn't going to shame them into voting the way you want.

The polls suggest the Leave campaign has a slight lead.  That could change...but indications are worrying.  The EU is already preparing retaliatory measures for any stupid post-Brexit UK policies (see the Dutch comments today re: immigration.  Note Holland has traditionally been something of an ally of the UK in the EU) and the economic and political fallout could be immense.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 01, 2016, 06:12:32 PM
And to add to the fun, Donald Trump has announced he will be visiting the UK on June 24th, when the results are declared  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on June 01, 2016, 06:22:50 PM
From what I can tell, leaving would totally fuck England's economy, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 01, 2016, 06:33:37 PM
Well, depending on who you talk to, yes and no.  Some projections have the sky falling in, others say we will somehow be able to negotiate even better deals outside of the EU, despite having less leverage.

A lot will depend on exactly how stupid we want to be in negotiations with the EU, as they are our major trading partner.  I think it would be fair to say that, in the short term at the very least there will be some sharp shocks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 01, 2016, 06:39:22 PM
Oh, because an EU exit would result in a likely vote of no-confidence in the government, our next government could end up being led by Boris Johnson.

That's also a factor to consider.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 02, 2016, 12:41:09 AM
My Scottish friends are all saying they will be there to voting out of spite for staying in the EU and should the UK leave they would demand the right to remain in the EU Even if England and wales left. Could something like this break up the Union? They are talking about borders in Northern Ireland again.

Years from now school children will be visiting David Cameron's grave to read the inscription "Here lies the man who killed the last lingering remnants of the British Empire, he also fucked a pig"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 02, 2016, 01:16:49 AM
It definitely could, yes.

This was an insane, stupid gamble from the very start, which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the splits in the Tory Party and enshrining an English Parliament.  If Cameron wins...he shuts up the Eurosceptics for another 20 years. And if he loses and Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland all dispute that to the point of ending the Union...the Tory party then has a structural majority in English politics, based on voting patterns over the last century or so, and won't lose any elections in the near future.

Of course, this does mean completely ignoring the national interest in remaining in the EU.  No matter the outcome, pursuing such an insane gamble for such petty party political purposes will cause history to judge him harshly.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2016, 08:37:53 AM
Pretty sure history will be much more interested in the pig thing
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 02, 2016, 10:08:30 AM
I'm pretty sure it will judge them harshly for it.

Firstly, it's worth stating that the volume of pigfuckers will, like everything, be higher than anticipated and probably extend to all the MP's and such that you would suspect it to and a few more for good measure. Blair, for example, will have done something similar.

Secondly, it's just piss poor. Saudi Kings buy solid gold cars. Ancient Emperors went full Caligula. We get these weak kneed fucks who bugger livestock. For fucks sake, even the Wehrmacht had a better go at decadence than this lot.

Thirdly, when they do try and throw some spectacle for the peasantry, you get wonders such as the millennium dome, Olympics, parties for the monarchy which are always:
1-from public funds, so fuck you
2-Filled with shite you hate, fuck you
3-Universally acclaimed by the media outlets that benefit from them, fuck you this isn't for you. It's an expensive advert for the tourist trade.


Overall, I suspect the vote will mainly show how much of a racism problem the UK has at the moment. I'm moderately inclined to assume it will be rigged anyway as there is simply too much money at stake to bail out of it.

And also, possible Boris Government. I fucking warned you all for years and it was just funny. There's no way that twat could slip in. Well ha fucking ha, this is looking inevitable eventually now. It'll be like Blair with less words and more blithering.


Something of a sidenote, but I've seen full blown tent cities in 6 or so cities in the Northwest UK now. Homelessness seems to be a quickly increasing problem everywhere (anecdotal....) and I can't see this improving anytime soon. The Leave vote would almost certainly make it worse however.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 08, 2016, 10:34:32 AM
Discussing the EU last night with a good associate and he asks if I think things will go badly either way. Short version:

You know the prisoner's dilemma? Where you both always need to co-operate to do well? And as soon as 1 side defects that results in both sides getting screwed over? Then you've got a long series of tit-for-tat while you try and work together again? Think of the EU as a Prison wing. You're now playing Co-operate/defect with 30 odd other people too. And the UK is considering snitching to the guards about the hooch. Now regardless of whether they do or not, they're still going to get a kicking and not be allowed any hooch. Got to keep the rest of the inmates in line, see? 

You know the other thing about prisons? The heating systems aren't great. And it'll be winter soon. So what do you think will happen with the prices in french owned power stations? Russia might want to sell us a blanket, but it passes through the block to get here and by that point it won't be so cheap. Or clean. Would you really be surprised if a vote in summer directly caused deaths in winter? I fucking wouldn't.



I'm not 100% on the countries as prisoners metaphor but there may be something there. Apparently no-one's really mentioned potential implications on fuel costs and I would assume this to be one of the first things that goes wild. The vast majority of UK power stations are owned by other countries. The inevitable seems fucking obvious.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 08, 2016, 11:41:57 AM
German politicians have been considering this, but in the event of a Leave vote occuring.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a variant of it even if we stayed, but I think it would be pretty indistinguishable from how things already are for us in Europe: we have no influence, no political capital and no allies, except a bunch of weird clerical fascists in Poland, because we act like little bitches and cry and stamp our feet whenever we don't get our way, and refuse any kind of compromise.  Only now Juncker will actually probably tell Cameron to go fuck himself instead of pretending to give a shit.

Jesus fucking Christ.  I may have mentioned this point about, oh, half a billion times, but Blair for all his fauilts had Europe locked down.  He played the EU like a fiddle, by building issue-based coalitions and appearing to be open to compromise and discussion.  By the time Blair left office, the UK was considered the third major force in the EU after Germany and France. 

The deterioration of UK foreign policy under Cameron is something future historians are definitely going to make note of.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 08, 2016, 02:11:20 PM
The UK is connected regardless of what happens, they will have to sign up to the Single European Energy market, as they will have to import as they have been daily to avoid a blackout scenario.

Now the weird thing with the ISEM is it is based on collective bargaining to get the best prices. There were already provisions for the UK because of the sterling, but there would be a need for more for the collective bargaining which is going to look like a very strange. It would basically be the confederated states of Europe + UK, unless they wanted to bargain on their own, which would almost certainly result in shortages or buying expensive energy from Europe.

EDIT: I realise most of this reads as gibberish, long story short is because Europes going to be setting energy prices, is physically connected to the UK grid, and because europe performs collective bargaining with the EU, the UK's going to get dragged along regardless of membership of the EU, or get shafted on energy costs for importing and exporting
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 08, 2016, 09:01:25 PM
Once they realise the natural superiority of the English speaking people, Im sure they will cut us a deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 08, 2016, 09:20:06 PM
And if that doesnt work out there's always the old coal mines laying about, if you can shake the Thatcher ghosts out of them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2016, 11:14:50 AM
QuoteI realise most of this reads as gibberish, long story short is because Europes going to be setting energy prices, is physically connected to the UK grid, and because europe performs collective bargaining with the EU, the UK's going to get dragged along regardless of membership of the EU, or get shafted on energy costs for importing and exporting

This.

There's also other imports/exports to consider. For example, the metals markets are what is technically known as "Fucked", mainly due to collusion between China and Turkey. Directly in the UK, huge job losses in the sector and I doubt it will ever really recover. Money is being thrown around in Cardiff to try and keep shit happening there but the North is FUBAR.

Likely outcomes?

1-Someone throws money at metal, and keeps going. Imports are still cheaper until a "Fuck you" tariff is imposed. This tariff will never be imposed as unlike the US, we are in no position to fuck with China. Did I mention China own a few things over here? Power stations, government buildings, nothing important.

1B-Someone throws money at it, finds there's no export market as they can all still get the cheap gear. That's being kind and assuming the EU doesn't slap on some kind of protective/punitive tariff on metal imported from the UK.

1C- Someone throws money at it and it's bread and honey all day long. Sounds legit.

2-No-one throws money at the problem, a bunch more people end up unemployed and you still import everything.   

3-Government Nationalises part or all of it. Costs a shitload and then gets sold to cronies at the slightest sign up an upturn in the market. Performance is irrelevant as the facilities will be mothballed and only a skeleton staff kept on for show. Causes many issues as the next troubled industry/business will expect the same thing. Worth noting, no-one gave a shit about SSI/Redcar and others so any move like that is also a huge fuck you to those who were shafted earlier and harder. Also worth noting that for any "job loss" figures you can reasonably add 33-66% based on the size of the site and ancillary support services. There's a shitload of small business that tie into the big mills and they are frequently their sole client. Goes without saying, these chaps are pretty much fucked.

The other thing that this did was open up the fuckery with Pensions. This is probably one of the biggest upcoming scandals that has really to break yet. We've had various hints that funds are fucked, empty and worthless but I would put massive bets on the entire fucking industry to be fucked, empty and worthless. The horse trading around employee's pensions in TATA and BHS recently does give a fairly clear idea that there is literally nothing in the fucking pot. When this starts to break properly, I'd assume the EU will be used as the scapegoat whichever way the vote falls.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2016, 12:29:21 PM
The pensions thing is a global(first world) problem. People are living longer, and the recession took a load of young working age people out of the pool.
So even without any dickery on behalf of the pension companies, we were already looking at big problems in the next 20 years for people retiring.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2016, 12:42:52 PM
It would logically follow that the EU, being first world counties will have similar and widespread issues.

I strongly suspect that this isn't a problem in ~20 years, I'm seeing a serious fuckup within 5. The EU may be able to cope with it as an entity but I think it'll be too large for any single country to deal with on their own. Austerity #2 anyone?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2016, 05:47:44 PM
So much of what we do is entangled with European institutions and bodies which are either run directly through or with strong influence from the EU nowadays.  It would be shorter to discuss those things which are not, by far.

Once again, these are the kind of things that, if we were being serious about discussing EU membership we should be discussing.  But the Leave and Remain campaigns are fundamentally unserious in their whole approach to this thing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2016, 07:06:14 PM
I'm sorry, did you say something about Immigration?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2016, 03:55:03 PM
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-kingdom/2016-06-08/conservative-case-against-brexit/
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Lenin McCarthy on June 13, 2016, 05:40:25 PM
It's a bit amusing to see Norwegian anti-EU politicians tell UK media that the "Norway option" is great and that life in the EEA is such a bed of roses, while at home the same people are arguing for Norway to leave or renegotiate the EEA agreement. If the UK wants to "regain sovereignty" and "control the borders", that option is shit. Norway does control agricultural and fishery policies, but in most other sectors we just have to accept EU regulations and directives with no means of influencing the decision-making process except for a few lobbyists in Brussels that nobody listens to. We have a "right of reservation", but it's mostly on paper and we've used it once (and then the next government overturned that decision). It's a tolerable enough agreement for a small country like Norway, but an aspiring (expiring?) world power voluntarily turning itself into a protectorate under the EU sounds just weird and degrading.

I'm a bit worried, though, that a Brexit will unleash all the ugly nationalisms of Europe and that there'll soon be no EU to speak of.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 13, 2016, 08:04:57 PM
This has actually been discussed.

Like, just today.  Seriously, that's how bad the media and political discourse on the EU is here.  Everyone is like "tEh nOrWeGiAn oPtIoN1!2!" and it took people 4 months to go "well, actually, maybe we should ask some Norwegians what they think about their deal?"

I'm starting to feel quite nervous about the whole thing.  The polls are way too close to call.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 16, 2016, 12:18:50 PM
Hey Cain,

I'm becoming more suspicious about some of the public faces of the leave side. I'm fairly sure that some of these have actually made quite a bit of cash during this "austerity" bullshit and are likely to make more money with further cut-backs and restrictive measures. Am I on the right line of thinking here?


In other news, Geldof and Farage buggered about on boats. This is one of the few times when it's tragic not to hear the phrase "...there were no survivors"

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 16, 2016, 01:11:12 PM
Possibly, depends on the faces you have in mind.

And true.  Fuck me, it'd take Farage for me to like Geldof, the self-important, sanctimonious twat that he is.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 16, 2016, 03:20:15 PM
Boris and gove mainly, pretty sure every corporate figure to throw around a leave letter would also fit the bill. Jcb in particular there.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 17, 2016, 04:50:52 PM
Did anyone watch Gove being a cunt (on Question Time) for about 90 minutes straight the other day?

He had about 3 lines - "Immigrants", "faith in the British people" and "Make Britain great again" and just proceeded to completely ignore most of the points the audience brought up.

I am honestly getting more and more worried - I have heard a number of the people that I work with saying straight-faced they thing that leaving is the right thing to do because 'well, we'll be able to control our borders.'

Also am I the only one who has heard -nothing- from the remain side? Surely they could be doing more work picking apart the bullshit that Leave is spouting.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 17, 2016, 04:59:45 PM
I didn't see Gove, but the Remain campaign are honestly awful.  In theory it should be easy to rip apart the leave campaign, but instead they're relying on bullshit scare stories to counter Leave's bullshit scare stories.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 17, 2016, 05:24:19 PM
Problem with the politics of fear is that it's damnably effective so why bother using anything else?, From a casual spectator's perspective it gets right fucking boring, tho.  :argh!:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 17, 2016, 05:48:05 PM
Johnathan Pie pretty much nails it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGC5S3ag1q0)  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 18, 2016, 05:28:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 24, 2016, 01:01:35 AM
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/meaning-brexit?force=scn%2Ffb%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Faninterviewwithianbremmer

QuoteBrexit would bring the "further marginalisation of Britain as a power with influence"
the prospects of TTIP (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) and the attractiveness of the British market would be hit "very dramatically" by Brexit

I'm in favor of anything that will sink the TTIP
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 18, 2016, 06:07:57 PM
Yes, we know, you're a one-issue fanatic and it's terribly tiresome.

Never mind the hundreds of other issues that the British exit from the EU might have.  All the foreign workers in the UK, all the UK citizens overseas who will lose their residency rights.  Never mind pretty much all the predictions showing the economy will go into a sharp recession.  Never mind the shock to the already fragile looking global economy.  Never mind all of that...your pet issue will be addressed, and that is all that matters.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 19, 2016, 05:37:28 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 18, 2016, 05:28:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 24, 2016, 01:01:35 AM
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2016/02/meaning-brexit?force=scn%2Ffb%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Faninterviewwithianbremmer

QuoteBrexit would bring the "further marginalisation of Britain as a power with influence"
the prospects of TTIP (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) and the attractiveness of the British market would be hit "very dramatically" by Brexit

I'm in favor of anything that will sink the TTIP

This is what fanaticism is, same as ISIS, Trump voters, and Justin Beiber groupies.

well done, that man.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 20, 2016, 11:31:31 AM
3 days to go.

I'm actually working Wednesday night, so I suppose Thursday morning I'll go to a polling station, sleep the rest of the day off and see what the polls are saying while I'm on the night shift.

They reckon all the ballots will be counted by Friday, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  This is going to be very close.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 23, 2016, 05:05:12 PM
Well, I discharged my democratic duties around 7am.

Normally this would call for a drink, but even though I had just finished work it was still only 7am, and given what the results may be tomorrow morning, I may need to drink then instead.

It's worth remembering this vote isn't, strictly speaking legally binding.  Of course, no government is going to go against it because that would be political suicide, but this does bring up the potential (if unlikely) scenario of there being a dead heat.  As the head of the Electoral Commission said, this is an "advisory referendum", so if it's a dead heat, she will declare that.  Then the politicians will have to decide.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on June 23, 2016, 05:37:28 PM
What's the time difference?  I hear first results will be coming in around midnight, London time.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 23, 2016, 06:28:55 PM
I voted without having to provide any i.d. Seems prone to voter fraud. Just "name, address?" *crosses out my name on a big list* "there you go."

LMNO - Individual constituencies will start announcing their votes at midnight but it won't all be fully accounted for until about 7am apparently. That might be.. 1 or 2am for you?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 23, 2016, 06:32:17 PM
Oh, and apparently half of London (and probably the rest of the country) is flooded so it's chaos.

Cain made a smart move voting earlier.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 23, 2016, 06:40:04 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 23, 2016, 05:37:28 PM
What's the time difference?  I hear first results will be coming in around midnight, London time.

Time as of posting this message is 18:37.

I've heard final results should be "around" breakfast time.

Quote from: Xaz on June 23, 2016, 06:28:55 PM
I voted without having to provide any i.d. Seems prone to voter fraud. Just "name, address?" *crosses out my name on a big list* "there you go."

That's usual.  The checks are done when you register.

Quote from: Xaz on June 23, 2016, 06:32:17 PM
Oh, and apparently half of London (and probably the rest of the country) is flooded so it's chaos.

Cain made a smart move voting earlier.

Not surprised.  It rained pretty hard last night.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 23, 2016, 11:53:21 PM
Gibraltar has voted to Remain.  No real surprise there.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 12:14:49 AM
Newcastle remains - but just barely.  Bit of a concern that, Newcastle was projected to be a solid victory.  Pound has started to lose value on that news coming out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 12:28:53 AM
Sunderland voted to leave.  Pound is getting wobbly...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on June 24, 2016, 02:40:59 AM
The money to be made shorting the pound hadn't occurred to me... oh shit!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 03:45:07 AM
Leave has been ahead all night so far.  Current tally via the BBC is 8.1 million for leave and 7.6 for remain.  16.8 million is apparently the winning number, based on estimated number of votes.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:39:43 AM
Sterling is shitting itself, as the Leave gain grows to 800,000 over Remain
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:44:11 AM
BBC has just forecast a win for the Leave campaign
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:02:25 AM
Leave currently has a million more voters than remain.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 05:08:22 AM
Keith Vaz was on the verge of tears, poor man is shell-shocked. I know how he feels.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:09:06 AM
Farage, by contrast, has been acting like a complete twat all night.

Moreso than usual, I mean.  Completely insufferable
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 05:13:21 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:09:06 AM
Farage, by contrast, has been acting like a complete twat all night.

Moreso than usual, I mean.  Completely insufferable

Yeah, and I loved the bit when he declared that this revolution had been achieved without a shot being fired. My chin hit the floor. Can we say tasteless?
Also - the closeness of the result seems as if it is within the bounds of the postal votes - most of which were registered before Jo Cox was assassinated.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:29:12 AM
Tasteless in the extreme.

Scotland has voted 62% to remain, as well.  So this is going to get messy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 05:36:52 AM
Yeah and
Sinn Fein calls for 'referendum on a united Ireland'
ITV News‎ - 23 mins ago

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:52:57 AM
And so it begins...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 06:01:33 AM
BBC has just confirmed it. I feel sick
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:14:07 AM
Japan's already suffering economic strain from this.  Brexit completely fucks their plans for the Yen
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 06:19:06 AM
Brexit is poisonous - and we are going to spread it worldwide like some sort of political ebola.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Suu on June 24, 2016, 06:20:51 AM
And tomorrow, Trump will come on television and tell all the America that he has a plan. A good plan. The best plan to deal with the fallout of Brexit. He has the best guys on it. You'll see.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:28:08 AM
Quote from: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 06:19:06 AM
Brexit is poisonous - and we are going to spread it worldwide like some sort of political ebola.

This could be world-historical bad.  I've been accused of being paranoid, of being a worst-case scenario kind of person.  But I can see the dominoes dropping...a world economic crisis.  The collapse and dissolution of the EU.  Russia, behind the scenes, bankrolling far-right and Eurosceptic parties to drive a wedge between Europe and America.  A political crisis turns to a landgrab in the Baltic states...NATO cannot intervene, not without a year of preparation, and not while increasingly popular, pro-Russian parties denounce American imperialism.

And that's just the European fallout.  The American election...China?  The Middle East?  This is going to have knock-on effects from knock-on effects and when people look back, they'll say "well, you can't blame the British for everything, but they certainly helped get the ball rolling".

Quote from: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 06:20:51 AM
And tomorrow, Trump will come on television and tell all the America that he has a plan. A good plan. The best plan to deal with the fallout of Brexit. He has the best guys on it. You'll see.

Trump was actually in favour of Brexit.  Yet another reason he cannot be trusted as President.  He thinks the UK hosing itself and possibly the rest of the EU with it is a reasonable outcome.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pergamos on June 24, 2016, 06:48:42 AM
I had heard a rumor that Scotland might have a separate referendum to remain in the EU but perhaps not in the UK, is that true?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Suu on June 24, 2016, 06:55:41 AM
At least the British are still as humorous as ever. Better laugh until you cry.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/the-brext-episode?utm_term=.wt6OeQQLMV#.ju8MlYYRxk
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Suu on June 24, 2016, 06:57:21 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:28:08 AM

Trump was actually in favour of Brexit.  Yet another reason he cannot be trusted as President.  He thinks the UK hosing itself and possibly the rest of the EU with it is a reasonable outcome.

You think after seeing what it's done to his precious money, he won't change his mind? Man's been waffling as much as maple tappers.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on June 24, 2016, 06:48:42 AM
I had heard a rumor that Scotland might have a separate referendum to remain in the EU but perhaps not in the UK, is that true?

Everything is rumours right now.

The SNP, the Scottish Nationalists, have said before now though that if Scotland votes overwhelmingly to remain (and it did) but the UK votes to leave, then it will "have to examine all options".

We just opened a massive fucking can of worms, that may lead to the dissolution of the UK as a political entity. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 07:17:46 AM
Quote from: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 06:57:21 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:28:08 AM

Trump was actually in favour of Brexit.  Yet another reason he cannot be trusted as President.  He thinks the UK hosing itself and possibly the rest of the EU with it is a reasonable outcome.

You think after seeing what it's done to his precious money, he won't change his mind? Man's been waffling as much as maple tappers.

Depends what his pro-Russian campaign advisor tells him to think.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 24, 2016, 08:25:56 AM
Cameron's stepping down (by October).

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 24, 2016, 08:51:50 AM
Finally democracy delivers some chaos I can get behind!
:drama1:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 24, 2016, 09:02:50 AM
I'm really worried about northern Ireland, apart from border controls, both the unionists and the republicans are going to dig in and go back to the bad old nationalistic days, bombings from the IRA, child murder by the British Soldiers. 

The best they could hope for at the moment is declaring themselves an independent nation state, which would both be in the commonwealth and in Europe, which would leave exactly no one happy: The people who want a 32 county Republic would be pissed off, the ones who consider themselves British would be pissed off, and everyone in the UK would be pissed off because it would be a back door for migration into the UK.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on June 24, 2016, 11:35:02 AM
and Scotland says the second Scottish independence referendum is now on the table. So no surprise there then. But that nice wee Nicola Sturgeon has rpomised that they will still be our best friend . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 24, 2016, 11:45:44 AM
Scotland was always going to be automatically triggered into another referendum based on the conditions of the 2014 vote, something like "Any significant change to the status of Scotland" was put in there in the event of something like this.

I was surprised this morning, a lot of the young Unionists in the north are saying they are really disappointed over the result and would be open to a referendum for northern Ireland, I would have thought now would be the time they would dig the heels in over this.

Spain is calling for Gibraltar to either be handed over, or be joint sovereignty. I know they are one of the more complex ones because of their location, wonder would this result in a friendly annexing of it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 02:39:38 PM
Quote from: SuuCal on June 24, 2016, 06:20:51 AM
And tomorrow, Trump will come on television and tell all the America that he has a plan. A good plan. The best plan to deal with the fallout of Brexit. He has the best guys on it. You'll see.

Ahem

QuoteUS presidential hopeful Donald Trump has said it is a "great thing" that the people of the UK have "taken back their country" in voting to leave the EU.

QuoteComedian Simon Brodkin later disrupted Mr Trump's news conference by waving golf balls with a swastika on them.

Quote"People are angry all over the world. They're angry over borders, they're angry over people coming into the country and taking over and nobody even knows who they are.
"They're angry about many, many things in the UK, the US and many other places. This will not be the last."

So it's looking like a full blown shitshow ahead. Morgan Stanley are apparently shifting 2000 staff out of London. Apparently China are still keen to trade with us. Obviously they would never capitalise of a bad situation and force out some quick one-sided trade deals to allow whoever to claim that everything's all right. 

In about 6 months when we've suffered Boris for a while and the plans for the NHS are openly on the table, I doubt many will be as keen. For fucks sake, in less than 6 months it'll be cold again and people across the UK will shit themselves at the heating bills.

I'm fairly tempted to shift back home for a while to be honest. I've seen a shocking (even for me) degree of racism over the past few months and this is essentially a license to continue. I'm pretty sure this will escalate over the next few weeks too.


Faust/Cain, I'm not fully up on the Irish situation, but does this have a bad feel to you? I can't see border crossing and a trump style wall getting shoved around Northern Ireland and surely some elements there would (strongly) object to such a thing? 

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 24, 2016, 03:46:03 PM
Both Northern Ireland and the Republic are saying there will be no need for the boarders to reopen, which is good, but will piss off the Farage types, as it will be viewed as a back door into the UK.

It's convenient for everyone actually living in the Republic and Northern Ireland though as it means those who commute between the two wont have to go through the tedium of a border check every time.

In fact since the borders were removed however many years ago, new roads cross diagonally between the north and south so for instance if I wanted to drive to Donegal from Dublin, there's a small section in the north, so you'd need two boarder checks(In and out) for an hours drive.

I am really really scared about violence kicking off up there again though.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 04:00:54 PM
As much as I wish it wasn't the case, I'm even more sure now that various violent acts are inevitable. I know it's anecdotal but I've literally heard over a dozen people today express less than enlightened opinions.

For me, it's not "if", it's when and where.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:34:20 PM
I'm hoping the progress that has happened over the past decade in Northern Ireland will mean Sinn Fein and the Unionists are willing to discuss this through peaceful means.

But all it could take is one with idiot with a pipe bomb...you know how things go from there.

Junk, do you mean violence in England?  I'm worried if the economic turmoil continues, we could be looking at riots.  Also, with Boris et al suggesting things go slow (which is the right thing...as right as anything can be right now) I can see various idiot sorts looking for their instant "kick the foreigners out" gratification.

I'd just like to note, on a personal level, this completely screws my parents retirement plan.  They had hoped, if the pound remained strong, to return to Australia and make use of the value discrepnancy.  Failing that, their idea was to move to Malta, due to a similar climate and cost of living.  But now the pound is in freefall and Malta's no longer an option.  So thanks, Brexiters.  You haven't screwed my family over as badly as some others, but you've definitely fucked things up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:42:22 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36611512

QuoteAs well as the banks, the housebuilding sector was also badly hit, with shares in Bovis Homes down more than 20% in afternoon trading.

"Financials and housebuilders are bearing the brunt of the pain, with Lloyds Bank being one of the biggest fallers," said Laith Khalaf, senior analyst at Hargreaves Lansdown, highlighting Lloyds' 21% slump.

"It's probably safe to say the public sale of the bank is now firmly in the long grass, and the return to full private ownership of both Lloyds and RBS has been knocked off course."

The Bank of England said it was "monitoring developments closely" and would take "all necessary steps" to support monetary stability.

In New York, the Dow Jones fell 2.6%, more than 400 points, in the opening minutes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36617918

QuoteBoris Johnson, a key figure in the Leave campaign was booed by an angry crowd as he left his north London home.

The volatile scenes came after the UK voted to leave the European Union.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

QuoteThe Spanish government has called for joint sovereignty over Gibraltar in the wake of the UK's vote to leave the EU.

The British overseas territory of 30,000 voted overwhelmingly for remain, with 95.9% opting to stay in the union.

"The Spanish flag on the Rock is much closer than before," Spain's acting Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said on Friday.

Gibraltar has been a British territory since 1713 but Spain continues to claim sovereignty over the enclave.

At the entrance to the Mediterranean, Gibraltar relies heavily on its shared EU border with Spain for trade.

In a radio interview, Mr Garcia-Margallo said: "It's a complete change of outlook that opens up new possibilities on Gibraltar not seen for a very long time.

"I hope the formula of co-sovereignty - to be clear, the Spanish flag on the Rock - is much closer than before."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36621777

QuoteTwo Labour MPs have submitted a motion of no confidence in Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

Dame Margaret Hodge and Ann Coffey confirmed the move in a letter to the Parliamentary Labour Party chairman.

The motion has no formal constitutional force but calls for a discussion at their next PLP meeting on Monday.

It will be up to the PLP chairman to decide whether it is debated. If accepted it would be followed by a secret ballot of Labour MPs on Tuesday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561095

QuoteStock markets around the world sink following the UK's decision to leave the European Union, as the pound tanks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Suu on June 24, 2016, 04:48:53 PM
 :aaa:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:49:04 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

Quotehe whole world is reeling after a milestone referendum in Britain to leave the European Union. And although leaders of the campaign to exit Europe are crowing over their victory, it seems many Britons may not even know what they had actually voted for.

Awakening to a stock market plunge and a precipitous decline in the value of the pound that Britain hasn't seen in more than 30 years, voters now face a series of economic shocks that analysts say will only worsen before they improve. The consequences of the leave vote will be felt worldwide, even here in the United States, and some British voters say they now regret casting a ballot in favor of Brexit.

[Live updates: Britain votes to leave the European Union]

"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just — the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

That confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:49:04 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

Quotehe whole world is reeling after a milestone referendum in Britain to leave the European Union. And although leaders of the campaign to exit Europe are crowing over their victory, it seems many Britons may not even know what they had actually voted for.

Awakening to a stock market plunge and a precipitous decline in the value of the pound that Britain hasn't seen in more than 30 years, voters now face a series of economic shocks that analysts say will only worsen before they improve. The consequences of the leave vote will be felt worldwide, even here in the United States, and some British voters say they now regret casting a ballot in favor of Brexit.

[Live updates: Britain votes to leave the European Union]

"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just — the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

That confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.

That is a very American concept of how and when to educate yourself on a vote.  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Suu on June 24, 2016, 04:58:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 04:49:04 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

Quotehe whole world is reeling after a milestone referendum in Britain to leave the European Union. And although leaders of the campaign to exit Europe are crowing over their victory, it seems many Britons may not even know what they had actually voted for.

Awakening to a stock market plunge and a precipitous decline in the value of the pound that Britain hasn't seen in more than 30 years, voters now face a series of economic shocks that analysts say will only worsen before they improve. The consequences of the leave vote will be felt worldwide, even here in the United States, and some British voters say they now regret casting a ballot in favor of Brexit.

[Live updates: Britain votes to leave the European Union]

"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just — the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

That confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.

That is a very American concept of how and when to educate yourself on a vote.  :lulz:

This is the fucking shit I expected to see.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:02:17 PM
"Oh no, my vote actually counted?"

"Oh no, the EU does more than send DIRTY IMMIGRANTS to the UK every day?"

Fuck these people.  Fuck them with a sharp stick.  They had their chance, and they chose to abrogate their duty to be a good citizen and learn the basics of the country they live in and outsource the whole process to a gaggle of rightwing press barons.  They're getting everything they deserve.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Freeky on June 24, 2016, 05:16:03 PM
ITT, Cain speaks prophecy. :horrormirth:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 05:29:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 05:02:17 PM
"Oh no, my vote actually counted?"

"Oh no, the EU does more than send DIRTY IMMIGRANTS to the UK every day?"

Fuck these people.  Fuck them with a sharp stick.  They had their chance, and they chose to abrogate their duty to be a good citizen and learn the basics of the country they live in and outsource the whole process to a gaggle of rightwing press barons.  They're getting everything they deserve.

Yeah, that is exactly my feeling when people in Kentucky start to bitch that NOTHING WORKS.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 05:31:32 PM
The thing is, too many people view their vote as a means by which to piss off the other side.  And then they are shocked that real things happen.

This is pretty much exactly how Arizona operates.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:04:22 PM
I'm sort of looking forward to everyone suddenly realising we're going to have to untangle 40+ years of laws, legislations and working practices and rebuild them from scratch and it's going to be as messy as fuck.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on June 24, 2016, 06:13:06 PM
I'm really curious how Gibraltar is gonna work itself out.

That, and what happens to all the Brits currently living and working in various EU countries.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 24, 2016, 06:13:06 PM
I'm really curious how Gibraltar is gonna work itself out.


Spain will make demands and the UK will tell them to go shit in their collective hat.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:16:30 PM
And all the Europeans living and working in the UK.

My own shift co-worker is Spanish, and 90% of the maintenance team are Polish, Spanish or Brazilian.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on June 24, 2016, 06:18:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:16:30 PM
And all the Europeans living and working in the UK.

My own shift co-worker is Spanish, and 90% of the maintenance team are Polish, Spanish or Brazilian.

Good point.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 24, 2016, 06:13:06 PM
I'm really curious how Gibraltar is gonna work itself out.


Spain will make demands and the UK will tell them to go shit in their collective hat.

International shipping is gonna be FUN again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:18:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: LMNO on June 24, 2016, 06:13:06 PM
I'm really curious how Gibraltar is gonna work itself out.


Spain will make demands and the UK will tell them to go shit in their collective hat.

Likely, as we're being idiots.

Unfortunately for Gibraltar, there is a LOT of cross-border activity which will have to be shut down now.  If Spain holds out, for joint sovereignty or nothing...well, Gibraltans voted to Remain for a very good reason, that their economy will be up shit creek without free movement into Spain.  They'd have as strong an argument as Scotland or Northern Ireland for sorting out their own arrangements, and due to the unusual legal standing of Gibraltar as a UK territory, could even possibly make them stick.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 09:47:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:04:22 PM
I'm sort of looking forward to everyone suddenly realising we're going to have to untangle 40+ years of laws, legislations and working practices and rebuild them from scratch and it's going to be as messy as fuck.

With many a fuckup and loophole to be inevitable.

As for violence, England for sure. I've got a personal bet on wigan but it's fucking ugly in Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and bits of the north Wales coast that I know about. Expect Bradford, Birmingham and Rochester are getting the same.

The reason I'm betting Wigan is that it has by far the most England flags hanging out I've ever seen in one town. London included. The graffiti also expressed dissatisfaction with non white residents quite strongly.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Suu on June 24, 2016, 09:53:31 PM
I do need to take this moment and give a shout out to Scotland for being, well, Scotland.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston/donald-trump-was-the-victim-of-some-vicious-british-insults-which-are-incredible-and-my-new-favorite-thing/

Swastika golf balls.  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 11:14:45 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2016, 05:31:32 PM
The thing is, too many people view their vote as a means by which to piss off the other side.  And then they are shocked that real things happen.

This is pretty much exactly how Arizona operates.

QG, could you have a play with this? Suspect it will be relevant forever.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2016, 11:46:07 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 09:47:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:04:22 PM
I'm sort of looking forward to everyone suddenly realising we're going to have to untangle 40+ years of laws, legislations and working practices and rebuild them from scratch and it's going to be as messy as fuck.

With many a fuckup and loophole to be inevitable.

As for violence, England for sure. I've got a personal bet on wigan but it's fucking ugly in Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and bits of the north Wales coast that I know about. Expect Bradford, Birmingham and Rochester are getting the same.

The reason I'm betting Wigan is that it has by far the most England flags hanging out I've ever seen in one town. London included. The graffiti also expressed dissatisfaction with non white residents quite strongly.

Well Wales is financially fucked now, without that EU investment.

Everything I'm seeing on the news is depressing me more and more right now.  I've said it often, but I really mean it now - this country is fucked.

I'm even considering going back to Australia.  That's how bad this is.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 25, 2016, 12:52:45 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 11:46:07 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 24, 2016, 09:47:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 24, 2016, 06:04:22 PM
I'm sort of looking forward to everyone suddenly realising we're going to have to untangle 40+ years of laws, legislations and working practices and rebuild them from scratch and it's going to be as messy as fuck.

With many a fuckup and loophole to be inevitable.

As for violence, England for sure. I've got a personal bet on wigan but it's fucking ugly in Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and bits of the north Wales coast that I know about. Expect Bradford, Birmingham and Rochester are getting the same.

The reason I'm betting Wigan is that it has by far the most England flags hanging out I've ever seen in one town. London included. The graffiti also expressed dissatisfaction with non white residents quite strongly.

Well Wales is financially fucked now, without that EU investment.

Everything I'm seeing on the news is depressing me more and more right now.  I've said it often, but I really mean it now - this country is fucked.

I'm even considering going back to Australia.  That's how bad this is.

Cornwall is fucking doomed.  They voted 56/43 to leave and THEN they want promises that the UK government will make up the missing investments.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 25, 2016, 04:08:33 AM
London, meanwhile, is trying to organise its own secession movement.

I'm not 100% on how serious this is, but I've seen references to petitioning Sadiq Khan to declare London a breakaway state or of having London join Scotland.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Bruno on June 25, 2016, 04:16:11 AM
Some yahoos in Texas are getting secession boners from all this, as well.

Well, I mean, they always have them, they're just pointing at them more vigorously now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 25, 2016, 04:20:53 AM
You got outplayed, Texans.  And by non-Americans, no less.

You talk about secession all the time.  We didn't even care about it until the election last year, and we were told it would fuck up the world economy, and we still did it.

Texas: all mouth, no pants.  Hence the vigorous secession boners in plain sight.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Suu on June 25, 2016, 04:40:02 AM
Some Canadian bitch just posted that the only people this matters to are the British, and that Canadians and Americans need to STFU.

So, I gave her links to the stock market.

Thread magically deleted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 25, 2016, 04:59:58 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 25, 2016, 04:20:53 AM
You got outplayed, Texans.  And by non-Americans, no less.

You talk about secession all the time.  We didn't even care about it until the election last year, and we were told it would fuck up the world economy, and we still did it.

Texas: all mouth, no pants.  Hence the vigorous secession boners in plain sight.

Texans have never been anything but mouth.  They think they're "the west", but they're basically a bunch of trailer parks in Southern Illinois.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 25, 2016, 07:28:45 AM
Quote from: Emo Howard on June 25, 2016, 04:16:11 AM
Some yahoos in Texas are getting secession boners from all this, as well.

Well, I mean, they always have them, they're just pointing at them more vigorously now.

Hmm, that would be the kind of turn of events that would force me to reconsider my current position in opposition to that southern border wall plan that keeps cropping up
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Suu on June 25, 2016, 04:03:34 PM
I'm pretty fascinated about how this is going to affect Ireland. I'm not much of an Irish historian, because it's outside of my scope, but the border between NI and the Republic is porous pretty much only because of the EU. I just saw a post on FB that talks about how the OP remembered seeing the guns and guards doing checks, and how both countries fought to gain at least some porosity. All of that is going to go away.

I did read that NI rejected Sinn Fein's proposal, which is unsurprising. I think the damage done on the island is way too far gone to really even work together for unification at this point. But I can see NI definitely giving the UK the finger if it means being able to at least keep an open border between itself and the Republic.

This is fucking terrifying, and I only know a -tiny- bit of early modern/modern Irish history.d

Edit: Addendum. Ugh.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/northern-irish-peace-sacrificed-english-nationalism
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2016, 07:54:47 AM
Those on Facebook may want to have a look at this album:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3

I am lucky: I am white, I have a standard British accent (and I carry a torch and spray with me everywhere - the first thug who tries to repatriate me is going to do have to do so missing his teeth and with his skin dyed bright pink).  I'm also an adult male with a somewhat heavier build - I'm among the last person a racist is going to pic on, if they even realised I wasn't British in the first place.

But obviously many people don't have those advantages.

I'm pretty disgusted with this country right now. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 26, 2016, 08:48:05 AM
That is disgusting. What I saw from the proposed negotiations yesterday from Scotland looked like a nice big fuck you to the racist contingent:
The will remain in the UK if it is possible to also remain in Europe and follow all of the previously agreed upon regulations... IE freedom of movement.
I don't know how that would work: If they can issue a national insurance number then anyone who wants to from Europe could work there.

I imagine the Farage types wouldn't be happy if polish, Romanian etc. could come IN to the country to work (via Scotland), but English and Welsh people couldn't go out to Europe to work.

I know the above scenario couldn't happen, Sturgeon is just laying the ground work justifications as to why a second referendum for Scottish independence is needed, and why being in the UK and EU at the same time would be far too complicated.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2016, 09:41:48 AM
That's one element of Scottish nationalism I'm OK with: it's "plucky underdog" nationalism that resents the English for the most part.

Whether it remains that inclusive once Scotland is independent is another question, but if I were a foreigner in Scotland, I'd take that bet over an independent UK right now.  At the very least, being in the EU would force Scotland to be under the ECHR purview and open up the possibility of retaliatory measures, should the SNP go that way.

Which is another thing.  We're now going to see just how ugly the British state can get, now it's free of having to operate within a European framework, with the possibility of tit-for-tat moves by European partners it was tightly bound with.  "Freedom" sometimes means "the freedom to be a complete shit", and I strongly suspect we will see a lot of the latter in the coming days, weeks and months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on June 26, 2016, 01:44:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2016, 07:54:47 AM
Those on Facebook may want to have a look at this album:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3

I am lucky: I am white, I have a standard British accent (and I carry a torch and spray with me everywhere - the first thug who tries to repatriate me is going to do have to do so missing his teeth and with his skin dyed bright pink).  I'm also an adult male with a somewhat heavier build - I'm among the last person a racist is going to pic on, if they even realised I wasn't British in the first place.

But obviously many people don't have those advantages.

I'm pretty disgusted with this country right now.

I found myself surprised at seeing how much hate the Polish still get. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2016, 01:52:52 PM
I know, right?  They've been here the best part of 12 years now.  And as far as immigrants go...well, the Poles keep their heads down, get on and work and not much else.  You see the very occasional Polish shop.  No Polish political parties, action groups, Polish only Catholic churches, Polish only areas - compared to with, say, Pakistani Sunni Muslims in the UK, Poles really don't figure on the radar.

Unless you're a Daily Mail reader, one presumes.

And all of the above is ignoring the sizeable Polish community that has existed in the UK since the 1930s.

Well, there's a reason I started drinking early today.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2016, 05:32:57 AM
That's fucking rancid. 

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 27, 2016, 08:28:33 AM
That's why I'd finished a bottle of red wine by lunch time.  Then I started really drinking.

I feel like it was either that, or doing something really fucking stupid.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 27, 2016, 03:38:31 PM
Smoke, it's what I've been doing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

QuoteSince the EU referendum results revealed the UK voted to leave, people have been compiling reports of racism on social media.

QuoteFormer Conservative parliamentary candidate Shazia Awan worked for the Stronger In campaign in Wales. She says she noticed a number of incidents of anti-foreign sentiment.
"When the Leave campaign focussed on the issue of immigration a few weeks before the result, I could feel the difference in how people were acting," she said.
"While I was campaigning, I was speaking to a black woman. A white man walked past and called her the N word."
After the referendum result, Shazia experienced a backlash herself when she tweeted her reaction to the outcome of the vote.
"After I came from the count on Friday morning I posted a tweet about David Cameron being the least worst thing about the Conservative party.
"Then I got a reply saying I should pack my bags and go home - I was born in Caerphilly in Wales.
"I don't like what this means for all of us."

Still anecdotal, but this is very, very fucking mild compared to some of this shit I've heard/seen by now. Knives are being mentioned with an alarming frequency, both aggressively and as the default means to protect yourself.

I'm hoping for someone to say it's just the parts/people I'm dealing with and it's not the norm.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 27, 2016, 03:52:27 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 27, 2016, 03:38:31 PM
Smoke, it's what I've been doing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36634786

QuoteSince the EU referendum results revealed the UK voted to leave, people have been compiling reports of racism on social media.

QuoteFormer Conservative parliamentary candidate Shazia Awan worked for the Stronger In campaign in Wales. She says she noticed a number of incidents of anti-foreign sentiment.
"When the Leave campaign focussed on the issue of immigration a few weeks before the result, I could feel the difference in how people were acting," she said.
"While I was campaigning, I was speaking to a black woman. A white man walked past and called her the N word."
After the referendum result, Shazia experienced a backlash herself when she tweeted her reaction to the outcome of the vote.
"After I came from the count on Friday morning I posted a tweet about David Cameron being the least worst thing about the Conservative party.
"Then I got a reply saying I should pack my bags and go home - I was born in Caerphilly in Wales.
"I don't like what this means for all of us."

Still anecdotal, but this is very, very fucking mild compared to some of this shit I've heard/seen by now. Knives are being mentioned with an alarming frequency, both aggressively and as the default means to protect yourself.

I'm hoping for someone to say it's just the parts/people I'm dealing with and it's not the norm.

There seem to be a large number on what was the 'Leave' side who are now downplaying the importance that people who actually voted placed on immigration. This is likely because none of the innuendoes that the Leave side let slip during their campaigning are going to be easy to achieve.

I don't know how long a situation with this much uncertainty can carry on without some crazy shit happening - from what I can tell we've just fucked ourselves and the main promises of the 'winning' camp are now turning out to be a bunch of wishful thinking and/or straight up lies. Surely people are now going to start asking "Where's this Greater Britain we were promised? What about all that EU money we aren't spending any more?"

I dunno maybe I overestimate the complacency of everyone. Certainly the Conservatives got into power on some similarly difficult to substantiate claims and nobody seemed too upset when they inevitably couldn't fulfil.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 27, 2016, 04:53:53 PM
Ahem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots#Suggested_contributory_factors

Let's just say that the next time the police kill someone, I won't be sleeping too well.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 27, 2016, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 28, 2016, 12:27:18 AM
Quote from: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

The mainland more-so than Britain?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 28, 2016, 01:32:15 AM
Quote from: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Benzodiazapine and a casual disregard for your own safety in public.

It works for me.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:11:24 PM
Gove and Johnson were conspicuously absent from Cameron's speech yesterday in the Commons.

Cowards.  Complete and utter cowards, the pair of them.

In other news, the leader of the EU Parliament liberal bloc said today that the biggest waste of money in the EU, paying Nigel Farage's salary, is due to end soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:17:08 PM
Johnson has stated if he becomes leader of the Tory party he won't be calling for a general election.

Whichever senior Tory party member who said Gove and Johnson had "engineered a right-wing coup" on Friday, give yourself a cookie.  You called that shit with clarity.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:20:06 PM
And now Corbyn has had a 170-40 motion of no confidence against him pass.

Because it's not binding, he's refusing to resign. 

:lulz:

So the PM is away with the faeries, Boris and Gove are hiding behind their PR officers, Farage is doing a stage act in Brussels and the Labour Party is tearing itself apart.

Right now, Nicola Sturgeon is the closest thing to a responsible leader the UK has got.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2016, 05:43:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:20:06 PM
And now Corbyn has had a 170-40 motion of no confidence against him pass.

Because it's not binding, he's refusing to resign. 

:lulz:

So the PM is away with the faeries, Boris and Gove are hiding behind their PR officers, Farage is doing a stage act in Brussels and the Labour Party is tearing itself apart.

Right now, Nicola Sturgeon is the closest thing to a responsible leader the UK has got.

And this is still just the beginning.

Please tell me I'm being utterly retarded in worrying that Blair may yet re-appear. I've got a horrible feeling that Chilcot will declare that no-one did anything wrong at any point and he'll use it as an excuse to "unite" people and slip back in.

Farage at the EU was comical. The "man" continues to demonstrate all the charm and political skill of a dead sheep.


On a slightly different note, will you all please make sure you're pronouncing "Farage" correctly. No french affectations, its pronounced to rhyme with "Garage" or "Gay Marriage".

Additionally, for the uneducated:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Farage

QuoteTo masturbate in an angry and confused way using unconventional stimuli.
Mark's Wife was furious when she caught him having a farage over a picture of Ann Widdecombe.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2016, 05:49:11 PM
Oho!  Is Farage the new Santorum?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2016, 05:53:07 PM
I've known about that for a few years, that actual definition came out at a Mark Thomas show in liverpool from one of the ushers. Santorum was the inspiration.

It's dangerously accurate, particularly when you look at the backtracking and quotes of the past few days.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Eater of Clowns on June 28, 2016, 06:59:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:17:08 PM
Johnson has stated if he becomes leader of the Tory party he won't be calling for a general election.

Whichever senior Tory party member who said Gove and Johnson had "engineered a right-wing coup" on Friday, give yourself a cookie.  You called that shit with clarity.

Tory Leader Johnson makes early bid for Prime Minister

Prime Minister Johnson "reluctantly accepts" title following unopposed election

Emergency Chancellor Johnson promises to step down after state of unrest

JOHNSON assures British populace there is no "official" curfew
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: rong on June 28, 2016, 07:39:27 PM
Would someone mind explaining about UK vs England vs Great Britain vs Britain and why Scotland, N Ireland voted to stay but they are leaving EU anyway because England voted to leave or do I have that wrong?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2016, 09:35:07 PM
Quote from: rong on June 28, 2016, 07:39:27 PM
Would someone mind explaining about UK vs England vs Great Britain vs Britain and why Scotland, N Ireland voted to stay but they are leaving EU anyway because England voted to leave or do I have that wrong?

Basically.

The United Kingdom is the whole thing: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland together (and Gibraltar).  Great Britain refers to the landmass which England, Wales and Scotland is on.

The referendum was a single, straight forward in/out vote among the entire population of the United Kingdom.

However, the polling and counting of the referendum was done at a constituency level, which allowed for counts of specific regions, cities and areas to be quickly made.

Because of its sheer population in comparison to the rest of the UK, England carried the "out" vote, even though in Northern Ireland and Scotland more people voted to remain in.  As the United Kingdom total vote is the one that counts, those regional preferences are in theory being discounted.

However, both Nothern Ireland and Scotland have special status under the UK Constitution, and a limited amount of devolved political power.  Because of this, they may be able to make their preferences stick in those areas, despite the overall vote in the UK going against them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: East Coast Hustle on June 29, 2016, 05:10:18 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 28, 2016, 05:43:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 28, 2016, 05:20:06 PM
And now Corbyn has had a 170-40 motion of no confidence against him pass.

Because it's not binding, he's refusing to resign. 

:lulz:

So the PM is away with the faeries, Boris and Gove are hiding behind their PR officers, Farage is doing a stage act in Brussels and the Labour Party is tearing itself apart.

Right now, Nicola Sturgeon is the closest thing to a responsible leader the UK has got.

And this is still just the beginning.

Please tell me I'm being utterly retarded in worrying that Blair may yet re-appear. I've got a horrible feeling that Chilcot will declare that no-one did anything wrong at any point and he'll use it as an excuse to "unite" people and slip back in.

Farage at the EU was comical. The "man" continues to demonstrate all the charm and political skill of a dead sheep.


On a slightly different note, will you all please make sure you're pronouncing "Farage" correctly. No french affectations, its pronounced to rhyme with "Garage" or "Gay Marriage".

Additionally, for the uneducated:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Farage

QuoteTo masturbate in an angry and confused way using unconventional stimuli.
Mark's Wife was furious when she caught him having a farage over a picture of Ann Widdecombe.

Woah woah WOAH.

"Garage" rhymes with "barrage", not with "marriage".

Who taught you Brits how to speak English, fer chrissake?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: rong on June 29, 2016, 05:37:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 28, 2016, 09:35:07 PM
Quote from: rong on June 28, 2016, 07:39:27 PM
Would someone mind explaining about UK vs England vs Great Britain vs Britain and why Scotland, N Ireland voted to stay but they are leaving EU anyway because England voted to leave or do I have that wrong?

Basically.

The United Kingdom is the whole thing: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland together (and Gibraltar).  Great Britain refers to the landmass which England, Wales and Scotland is on.

The referendum was a single, straight forward in/out vote among the entire population of the United Kingdom.

However, the polling and counting of the referendum was done at a constituency level, which allowed for counts of specific regions, cities and areas to be quickly made.

Because of its sheer population in comparison to the rest of the UK, England carried the "out" vote, even though in Northern Ireland and Scotland more people voted to remain in.  As the United Kingdom total vote is the one that counts, those regional preferences are in theory being discounted.

However, both Nothern Ireland and Scotland have special status under the UK Constitution, and a limited amount of devolved political power.  Because of this, they may be able to make their preferences stick in those areas, despite the overall vote in the UK going against them.

Ok, so - Scotland is a country, right?  England is a country, right?  So, what is the UK?  Also a country? Or, like, a mega-country?  I guess I don't see why EU and UK membership need be mutually exclusive
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 29, 2016, 08:24:35 PM
Quote from: rong on June 29, 2016, 05:37:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 28, 2016, 09:35:07 PM
Quote from: rong on June 28, 2016, 07:39:27 PM
Would someone mind explaining about UK vs England vs Great Britain vs Britain and why Scotland, N Ireland voted to stay but they are leaving EU anyway because England voted to leave or do I have that wrong?

Basically.

The United Kingdom is the whole thing: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland together (and Gibraltar).  Great Britain refers to the landmass which England, Wales and Scotland is on.

The referendum was a single, straight forward in/out vote among the entire population of the United Kingdom.

However, the polling and counting of the referendum was done at a constituency level, which allowed for counts of specific regions, cities and areas to be quickly made.

Because of its sheer population in comparison to the rest of the UK, England carried the "out" vote, even though in Northern Ireland and Scotland more people voted to remain in.  As the United Kingdom total vote is the one that counts, those regional preferences are in theory being discounted.

However, both Nothern Ireland and Scotland have special status under the UK Constitution, and a limited amount of devolved political power.  Because of this, they may be able to make their preferences stick in those areas, despite the overall vote in the UK going against them.

Ok, so - Scotland is a country, right?  England is a country, right?  So, what is the UK?  Also a country? Or, like, a mega-country?  I guess I don't see why EU and UK membership need be mutually exclusive

Depends how you're defining a country.

Scotland does not control its own foreign policy or military.  England does not have its own Parliament - there are enough English MPs in the UK Parliament to outvote MPs from every other part of the UK put together.

The UK is the country, Scotland is more akin to a US state (like, say, Texas) than it is to France.  However, Scotland (like Texas) has also historically been an independent state and Scotland (unlike Texas) also has a very valid claim to being a nation - that is, a distinctive linguistic-cultural group.  Scotland and England joined together to create the UK in the 1700s when England and Scotland ended up having the same King.  Only in recent decades has power been ceded by the UK Parliament back to Scotland.

So, to build on the analogy: Imagine that tomorrow, America voted to withdraw from NATO.  However, Texas disagreed.  So Texas starts to look at how to leave America, in order to remain a member of NATO.  That's probably the strongest American-centric analogy I can come up with.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: rong on June 29, 2016, 09:56:58 PM
Ok - I guess my confusion came from thinking (erroneously) that Scotland, et all were countries when they actually aren't.  Thanks for clarification
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 29, 2016, 10:57:33 PM
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: rong on June 29, 2016, 11:06:00 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 29, 2016, 10:57:33 PM
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

4/5 Would read again  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 30, 2016, 11:36:25 AM
Our head is after pissing off some UKIP Scottland guy:

QuoteAfter a crunch EU summit in Brussels, Mr Kenny confirmed he had passed on the view of Nicola Sturgeon's Sottish National Party (SNP) that "Scotland had a very strong belief that they should not be dragged out of the European Union having voted to stay".

Scottish Ukip MEP David Coburn said Mr Kenny had acted as a "gofer" for the SNP and said he would be "better off ensuring the prosperity and democratic self-governance of the Irish people".
"Instead of acting as a trouble-making messenger boy for the SNP, Enda Kenny would be better off explaining to Ms Sturgeon that national democracy and EU membership are incompatible."

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 02:01:08 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 29, 2016, 10:57:33 PM
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

QG to the Propaganda cave please.


Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.


And ECH, it totally rhymes with "Gay Marriage" and I'll keep telling anyone wearing a UKIP pin the same fucking thing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 30, 2016, 03:10:07 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 02:01:08 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 29, 2016, 10:57:33 PM
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

QG to the Propaganda cave please.


Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.


And ECH, it totally rhymes with "Gay Marriage" and I'll keep telling anyone wearing a UKIP pin the same fucking thing.

"The government of the UK is a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks -- representing big money -- locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south -- representing bigger money -- over who gets what share of the skim."

Yeah? Or should I do parenthesis on the asides? Or "The UK government" instead of "government of the UK"?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: POFP on June 30, 2016, 03:58:20 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 30, 2016, 03:10:07 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 02:01:08 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 29, 2016, 10:57:33 PM
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

QG to the Propaganda cave please.


Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.


And ECH, it totally rhymes with "Gay Marriage" and I'll keep telling anyone wearing a UKIP pin the same fucking thing.

"The government of the UK is a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks -- representing big money -- locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south -- representing bigger money -- over who gets what share of the skim."

Yeah? Or should I do parenthesis on the asides? Or "The UK government" instead of "government of the UK"?

Personally, I think "The UK Government" rolls off the tongue better. But other than that, I think the way you've got it formatted there is fantastic.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 04:37:48 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 30, 2016, 11:36:25 AM
Our head is after pissing off some UKIP Scottland guy:

QuoteAfter a crunch EU summit in Brussels, Mr Kenny confirmed he had passed on the view of Nicola Sturgeon's Sottish National Party (SNP) that "Scotland had a very strong belief that they should not be dragged out of the European Union having voted to stay".

Scottish Ukip MEP David Coburn said Mr Kenny had acted as a "gofer" for the SNP and said he would be "better off ensuring the prosperity and democratic self-governance of the Irish people".
"Instead of acting as a trouble-making messenger boy for the SNP, Enda Kenny would be better off explaining to Ms Sturgeon that national democracy and EU membership are incompatible."

...said the UKIP MEP

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 04:42:10 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 02:01:08 PM
Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.

That's pretty massive. 

If the backbenchers are feeling slighted or cannot unify around another candidate, this probably means Theresa May as Party leader.

I'm not entirley opposed to that outcome, in the sense that I thin Theresa May, along with Oliver Letwin and Stephen Crabb is one of the few actual adults in the Cabinet (Letwin's a tricky one...he's not obviously stupid, in fact he's quite a bright fellow in a few ways but sometimes you have to restate an idea in several different ways if it runs against his conventional wisdom, to stop him from automatically dismissing it).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 04:49:53 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 30, 2016, 03:10:07 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 02:01:08 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 29, 2016, 10:57:33 PM
Scotland is a distinctly different place from england. That's what I personally mean by "country" The english are a lot unlike us. The land itself is totally different and inferior. There's some nice bits but it's basically a shithole. Wales is a bit better but still, it's a bit shite really. In terms of politics, it's a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks, representing big money, locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south, representing bigger money, over who gets what share of the skim.

Those wankers try to tell me I'm part of some "United Kingdom" of self interested bullshit power fuckery. I laugh. I'm scottish. I sincerely do not give a fuck.

QG to the Propaganda cave please.


Apparently Boris has declined to stand. I'm unsure if this is bullshit or symptomatic of his lack of spine.


And ECH, it totally rhymes with "Gay Marriage" and I'll keep telling anyone wearing a UKIP pin the same fucking thing.

"The government of the UK is a total clusterfuck with a semi-autonomous parliament full of entitled rich pricks -- representing big money -- locked in a squabbling contest with a bunch of entitled rich pricks down south -- representing bigger money -- over who gets what share of the skim."

Yeah? Or should I do parenthesis on the asides? Or "The UK government" instead of "government of the UK"?

Try "The Scottish government", though the "devolved parliaments" may be more accurate. Cain?


In other news, I'm having the giggles again. IF boris stays out, the likely winners are either Gove (Hilteresque) and May (Thatcher 2:Austerity boogaloo). Either way somewhere is getting the fuck bombed out of it within 6 months of the choice being made. I'm relatively certain that the US will have an urge shortly too with a new president. What better way to demonstrate your relevance to the world? Trump could go after anywhere, Clinton will probably look at the middle east, because fuck it, why not?

So the question for me is where is the next war happening? What will the UK soon give a fuck about to turn on the meat grinder again? ISIS would be an obvious pick, but there's still those 200 odd missing girls in Africa. That would be a quick way to play the "NOT RACIST" card. I can't see troops heading anywhere that would actually result in some stability so expect migration from fucked places to continue and possibly accelerate. Somewhere is getting bombed to fuck this time next year because of all this fuckery and posturing now, I can see it coming I just don't know where.

As always, taking bets now. Good odds on everywhere apart from anywhere Cain guesses.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2016, 05:36:22 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 30, 2016, 11:36:25 AM
Our head is after pissing off some UKIP Scottland guy:

QuoteAfter a crunch EU summit in Brussels, Mr Kenny confirmed he had passed on the view of Nicola Sturgeon's Sottish National Party (SNP) that "Scotland had a very strong belief that they should not be dragged out of the European Union having voted to stay".

Scottish Ukip MEP David Coburn said Mr Kenny had acted as a "gofer" for the SNP and said he would be "better off ensuring the prosperity and democratic self-governance of the Irish people".
"Instead of acting as a trouble-making messenger boy for the SNP, Enda Kenny would be better off explaining to Ms Sturgeon that national democracy and EU membership are incompatible."

So, "National Democracy" is the new word.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 06:38:23 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2016, 05:36:22 PM
So, "National Democracy" is the new word.

It worked out super well for the Poles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democracy).

Quote from: Junkenstein on June 30, 2016, 04:49:53 PM
Try "The Scottish government", though the "devolved parliaments" may be more accurate. Cain?


In other news, I'm having the giggles again. IF boris stays out, the likely winners are either Gove (Hilteresque) and May (Thatcher 2:Austerity boogaloo). Either way somewhere is getting the fuck bombed out of it within 6 months of the choice being made. I'm relatively certain that the US will have an urge shortly too with a new president. What better way to demonstrate your relevance to the world? Trump could go after anywhere, Clinton will probably look at the middle east, because fuck it, why not?

So the question for me is where is the next war happening? What will the UK soon give a fuck about to turn on the meat grinder again? ISIS would be an obvious pick, but there's still those 200 odd missing girls in Africa. That would be a quick way to play the "NOT RACIST" card. I can't see troops heading anywhere that would actually result in some stability so expect migration from fucked places to continue and possibly accelerate. Somewhere is getting bombed to fuck this time next year because of all this fuckery and posturing now, I can see it coming I just don't know where.

As always, taking bets now. Good odds on everywhere apart from anywhere Cain guesses.

"Regional governments" would be another possibility.

With regards to military action, I'm not even sure we can afford it.

As you may know, I gave some evidence to Parliament about Force 2020, the five year plan for the military?  Well that meant doing research on the existing state of the military and quite frankly, it's shocking.

Now, this isn't just the blame of the Tory government, though they do deserve a significant portion of it.

Essentially, we spent the best part of a decade shoving UK troops in whatever firefight we saw fit.  After downsizing at the end of the Cold War.  So, supplies have run down.  We've also seen the biggest boom in the private military and arms sector over the same period, meaning more soldiers are going in, doing their 5 years of service and getting out.

So, after a decade of that, we then cut all military spending.  Meaning we used up most of our stocks, but then didn't allocate the money to upkeep and replacement.  We've been running on fumes the last couple of years, just to convince people we still actually exist, but that's just exacerbated the problem.  Without significant military spending, the UK is not in a good place at all.  And that means taxes going up, more government spending...basically two things the Tories hate and will never do.

The military brass are almost as pissed off as the police right about now, and when you consider the officer corps' natural political inclinations, that is pretty impressive.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 06:44:00 PM
Incidentally, there was a YouGov poll the other day asking who you'd prefer to seize power in the event the UK underwent a "significant period of political instability and turbulence".

The Queen, Parliament and the military were all options. 

YouGov is owned by Stephan Shakespeare.  Look him up, for fun.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2016, 08:00:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 30, 2016, 06:38:23 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 30, 2016, 05:36:22 PM
So, "National Democracy" is the new word.

It worked out super well for the Poles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democracy).

It just sounds too much like "National Socialism".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 30, 2016, 09:50:15 PM
That too.  But since Poland was the closest thing to Nazi Germany that wasn't Nazi Germany at that time, the extra layer of irony is nice (also because it's Polish, and apparently we hate the Polish now).

QuoteThe main goal of the party was the construction of a Catholic Polish State, through combining the principles of Catholicism and Nationalism. The party advocated a hierarchical organisation of society and the transformation of the political system by increasing the role of the Polish National elite within the country. The SN organised numerous rallies and demonstrations against the policies of the Sanacja government.

QuoteSimultaneously the ND emphasized its anti-Semitic stance, intending to exclude Jews from Polish social and economic life and ultimately to push them to emigration out of Poland.[13] Antisemitic actions and incidents – boycotts, demonstrations, even attacks – organized or inspired by National Democrats occurred during the 1930s. The most notorious actions were taken by a splinter group of radical young former NDs who formed the fascist-inspired National Radical Camp (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny)

QuoteThe organization proclaimed changes in the government based on the nationalist ideology.[2] It supported class solidarity, nationalization of foreign and Jewish-owned companies and introduction of anti-semitic laws.[2] At the same time it supported defense of private property and a centralized state. The party favored aggressive eliminationist[clarification needed] action against Poland's minorities.[5] The leading members of ONR-ABC included Henryk Rossman, Tadeusz Gluziński, Stanisław Piasecki, Jan Jodzewicz, Wojciech Zaleski, Tadeusz Todtleben and Jan Korolec. The leading members of ONR-Falanga included Bolesław Piasecki, Wojciech Wasiutyński, Wojciech Kwasieborski and Marian Reutt.

The ONR was popular mostly among the students and other groups of urban youth. ONR openly encouraged anti-Jewish pogroms, and became the main force in the organization of attacks against Jews.[7] Because of its involvement in boycott of Jewish-owned stores,[8] as well as numerous attacks on left-wing worker demonstrations,[9] the ONR was outlawed after three months of existence, in July 1934.[2] Several leaders were interned in the Bereza Kartuska Detention Camp, where the organization split into two separate factions: the ONR-Falanga (Ruch Narodowo-Radykalny) led by Bolesław Piasecki, and the ONR-ABC (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny) formed around the ABC journal and led by Henryk Rossman.[2] Both organizations were officially illegal.[2]
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 01, 2016, 08:45:09 AM
https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/angela-eagle-leadership-website-registered-days-resigned/
:horrormirth:

In just a week we've seen just over half our electorate stab  a poniard deep into the vitals of our body politic, Jeremy Corbyn 'Caesared' by his own treacherous "supporters", and now Gove and Boris in their own tragic reenactment of Romeo and Juliet, lots of love, lots of love, lots of love; oh look they are both dead. We truly are the country of Shakespeare.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2016, 09:42:46 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 30, 2016, 06:44:00 PM
Incidentally, there was a YouGov poll the other day asking who you'd prefer to seize power in the event the UK underwent a "significant period of political instability and turbulence".

The Queen, Parliament and the military were all options. 

YouGov is owned by Stephan Shakespeare.  Look him up, for fun.

Do you have a link to that poll or the result? The idea of Parliament "seizing power" is making me laugh quite a bit. It's only moderated by the fact that a significant chunk of people would prefer a military coup.

The Daily Heil is backing May.

On the military front, I honestly doubt that being able to afford it or not will even factor into the decision. The UK has had no qualms shipping people out with inappropriate or substandard equipment over the years. Doing exactly that again while trying to deal with this EU fuckup sounds like just the kind of thing that the next PM will do.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 10:06:06 AM
Appears to have been scrubbed from the internet.

Unlike their previous poll, which found 44% of UKIP supporters said they would back a military coup.

And with the military, it may get to the point we wont even be able to ship people out.  Remember, no working aircraft carriers until 2020...meaning closer to 2025.  And they're planned to use F-35s...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 01, 2016, 10:08:46 AM
Is there a reason the Lib Dems/Greens aren't making more noise at the moment? With the two 'main' parties in absolute chaos I would have thought they would be seizing the opportunity to get some awareness out there.

Maybe they are and i'm just not catching the news.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 10:11:26 AM
The Lib Dems are crowing about the thousands of members they picked up in the aftermath of the referendum.  However it's on their own social media and email list, so...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2016, 10:31:30 AM
Quote from: Xaz on July 01, 2016, 10:08:46 AM
Is there a reason the Lib Dems/Greens aren't making more noise at the moment? With the two 'main' parties in absolute chaos I would have thought they would be seizing the opportunity to get some awareness out there.

Maybe they are and i'm just not catching the news.

I've seen and heard little. That said, the Lib-dems are still pretty much FUBAR and will be dead as a political entity for the forseeable future. They had the only chance they were ever likely to get and fucked it up quite badly. The Greens PR has never been great so even if they have anything to say your chances of hearing it are slim unless you're looking for it.

In short, they both preach to their own choirs and those are not particularly large now.

In other news, I'm enjoying the Corbyn shitshow more by the day. Hopefully he sticks around for a while yet. Just his presence is likely to give "people" on both sides strokes.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 01, 2016, 11:03:20 AM
Maybe I spoke too soon:

hxxps://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/4qqivq/caroline_lucas_green_party_my_six_point_plan_to/

Quote1) A General election this year so people can choose the Government they want to represent them in the negotiations to come. The current Government has no mandate for negotiations.

2) A Parliamentary vote on any 'terms of exit' BEFORE invoking Article 50. This stops a small cabal at the top of Government having total control over this country's future place in the world.

3) The protection of free movement within the EU, strong environmental protections, workers rights and the Single Market. We're working with a range of environment NGOs and other experts to identify ways to best protect vital Green legislation

4) A second referendum on the terms of a final deal. Britain decided to leave the EU, but nobody knew what kind of Brexit was on the ballot paper. It's only right that we're all given a say.

5) An emergency law which guarantees the rights of non-British nationals already living here in Britain. No one who has come here to make a life for themselves should feel threatened by Brexit.

6) The protection of young people's future. 75% of young people who voted chose to remain. It's only right that the Government should now guarantee continued funding for Erasmus, student exchanges and EU funded schemes targeted at young people.

and:

hxxp://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-01/blame-brexit-liars-not-duped-voters-says-lib-dem-s-tim-farron

I think the article from Farron is pretty good, although he claims

QuoteIt is now clear there is absolutely no Brexit plan, either from those who have schemed all of their political lives for this moment, or from George Osborne, who claims it is not his responsibility,

which, while admittedly true, doesn't carry much weight when his plan seemingly amounts to 'try to stay in the Single Market'

Maybe a Lab-Lib-Green coalition could work... I can't see any single  party beating the Tories right now if a GE is called despite the chaos going on over there.


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2016, 01:09:11 PM
I would think the greens stand a better chance if they just campaigned that they would do everything they could to overturn/block/rerun the referendum. Point 4 should be #1 or 2, really. It's their strongest possible lead. After the Lib-dem fuckup with the conservative coalition, point 6 will be regarded with no small degree of scepticism. It may be better to indicate the total cost that funding this crap through government would cost and note that despite austerity it still exists due to the EU.


It may be worth noting that one of the main pressures in the UK is housing. Council stock has been systematically eroded to the point that there is little left. Rebuilding levels are comically low and councils have little funding or reason to do so. Developers can still opt for S106 that  removes their obligation to provide affordable homes as part of any development by bunging the council a few quid. The Councils are that fucked for cash that they just take it and throw it in the hole. This has been a failing of every government since Thatcher's right to buy crap kicked in.  Housing associations are looking to go the same way as council stock so the situation will deteriorate further. The results are the shitshow you see now with ridiculous rents for shitholes and flats the size of a large shed being with over £1 million in London.

If I was running the greens, that's got to be one of the biggest sticks to beat everyone with. "Your rent is high because these fuckers can't even make councils build 1 house each a year. Of course shit it is going to feel pressured when you do fuck all to release any"

For reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom

Just have a look at the dates the last ones were done. Then consider today's date. We're talking about a 45+ year old problem here that no-one is inclined to fix and yet it's one of the main reasons this shit is going on now. The horrible reality is that sooner or later someone is going to have to build Milton Keynes #2 #3, #4 and more. If you think you've seen anything corrupt yet, just wait until those contracts start floating around. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 03:45:56 PM
Unfortunately, that works out just peachy for the Saudis and Qataris, which is why they invest their oil money here.  I'm actually fairly sure it's part of a long-term strategy of pushing house prices up via demand, exacerbated by overseas landlords who use their properties 2 weeks a year, to show them that Britain is a safe investment, a place where you can make money, and so you should totally invest in even more property and help fuel the slow-burn property bubble.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2016, 06:14:17 PM
I can't disagree, I'm just seeing a situation where it becomes untenable to sustain with only drastic solutions left as the options.

It will also be worth watching offshore fuckery too. Using phone so notes for when I can: Tobin tax, London status/exemptions, not likely to do well in general post exit.

What's the mood like in london? Still ugly up here though everyone now an expert on politics. Have watched man sign name with an X and then talk about chances of Johnson fucking goves run later. Plausible. Possibly amusing but guarantees may.

Labour vote of no confidence in Corbin 170-40 against. Suspect this means there are approx 20 Max actual left wing labour Mps.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 08:53:10 PM
To be honest, I try not to talk politics with people around here.  I mean, they kill people for their push-bikes, god only knows what they'll do about politics.

I haven't seen any incipient stirring of a riot, but this is Islington.  Admittedly, the poorest part of Islington, but racism's never been a big deal around this area.  Even the criminal gangs tend to have outgoing and progressive views re: skin colour, I think anything except blue is pretty acceptable.

Things are probably different in more Polish inhabited areas though.  The head of the London Polish community, the one whose Hammersmith community centre got vandalised, said it would be riots if something wasn't done. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2016, 08:59:46 PM
BTW, the Austrian Presidency is going to have to be run again, due to voting irregularities.

This was a campaign, you may recall, that was dominated by the far-right and immigration issues.  Be interesting to see if Brexit has emboldened Austria's own eurosceptics, or had a chilling effect...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 01, 2016, 11:28:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2016, 07:54:47 AM
Those on Facebook may want to have a look at this album:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3

I am lucky: I am white, I have a standard British accent (and I carry a torch and spray with me everywhere - the first thug who tries to repatriate me is going to do have to do so missing his teeth and with his skin dyed bright pink).  I'm also an adult male with a somewhat heavier build - I'm among the last person a racist is going to pic on, if they even realised I wasn't British in the first place.

But obviously many people don't have those advantages.

I'm pretty disgusted with this country right now.

Can't access link in app. FB WEBSITE WON'T ALLOW IT.

Alt?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 01, 2016, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 27, 2016, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?

As an aside I have yet to mention an idea that hit me, SQUAM!

It isn't a fetish. The idea is based on your "girl with the tentacle face" vibe as my brain saw it. SQUAM! is like 20's flapper-esq high-glam + scales, tentacles, pseudo and exopodia, anything that might give Lovecraft or Crowley(ew!) an upsetting boner. I kinda mentioned it in the Why They Are Terrible thread, but it's expanded. I have no idea how to express it, but want to use it as a story mood and setting element one day.

Freadjakovar! :)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 02, 2016, 12:22:55 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 01, 2016, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 27, 2016, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?

As an aside I have yet to mention an idea that hit me, SQUAM!

It isn't a fetish. The idea is based on your "girl with the tentacle face" vibe as my brain saw it. SQUAM! is like 20's flapper-esq high-glam + scales, tentacles, pseudo and exopodia, anything that might give Lovecraft or Crowley(ew!) an upsetting boner. I kinda mentioned it in the Why They Are Terrible thread, but it's expanded. I have no idea how to express it, but want to use it as a story mood and setting element one day.

Freadjakovar! :)

But, it can still be a fetish, right?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Freeky on July 02, 2016, 01:11:04 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 02, 2016, 12:22:55 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 01, 2016, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 27, 2016, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?

As an aside I have yet to mention an idea that hit me, SQUAM!

It isn't a fetish. The idea is based on your "girl with the tentacle face" vibe as my brain saw it. SQUAM! is like 20's flapper-esq high-glam + scales, tentacles, pseudo and exopodia, anything that might give Lovecraft or Crowley(ew!) an upsetting boner. I kinda mentioned it in the Why They Are Terrible thread, but it's expanded. I have no idea how to express it, but want to use it as a story mood and setting element one day.

Freadjakovar! :)

But, it can still be a fetish, right?

The real question is, how is it NOT?


(If joke is bomb, I'm sorry.)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 02, 2016, 11:36:19 PM
http://thebrexitplan.com/

Covers everything related nicely.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: POFP on July 03, 2016, 12:02:52 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 02, 2016, 11:36:19 PM
http://thebrexitplan.com/

Covers everything related nicely.

I wanna click the shiny red button because shiny red button gives information and I crave information and I wanna click the shiny red button to receive the information but when I click the shiny red button it jumps away but why shiny red button I wanna click you I want the information and I wanna show my friends why Brexit is good and to do that I need the information so I need to click the shiny red button but it hates me and I wanna click it and it jumps away from me and the shiny red button is full of secrets I want but secrets I can't have because the shiny red button runs away BUT I CLICKED IT I FUCKING CLICKED IT WITH THE HAND AND THE POINTER AND I CLICKED IT AGAIN I KNOW I CLICKED THE SHINY RED BUTTON but it never works but I can't stop because the shiny red button is shiny and red and I like buttons and I wanna click the shiny red button...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 03, 2016, 12:25:47 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 02, 2016, 11:36:19 PM
http://thebrexitplan.com/

Covers everything related nicely.


:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 03, 2016, 04:08:11 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 02, 2016, 12:22:55 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on July 01, 2016, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 27, 2016, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: MMIX on June 27, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
I've just watched some grinning pimply youth on the news channel telling me how much better off we will be trading with Ghana than with the European Union which according to another wunderkind is a failed and diminishing continent.

Cain, you are very lucky - I don't drink; what the hell am I supposed to do.   :horrormirth:

Start experimenting with fucked up fetishes?

As an aside I have yet to mention an idea that hit me, SQUAM!

It isn't a fetish. The idea is based on your "girl with the tentacle face" vibe as my brain saw it. SQUAM! is like 20's flapper-esq high-glam + scales, tentacles, pseudo and exopodia, anything that might give Lovecraft or Crowley(ew!) an upsetting boner. I kinda mentioned it in the Why They Are Terrible thread, but it's expanded. I have no idea how to express it, but want to use it as a story mood and setting element one day.

Freadjakovar! :)

But, it can still be a fetish, right?

I'd like to think of it as something one might develop a fetish for if you failed a Sanity Check in the Call of Cthulhu RPG, but essentially a very "progressive" style of bio-pride as a story concept. "It takes guts to wear that tentacle face" perhaps.

I have images and a partial vignette with a French, thin-moustached inspector character on a train whose name escapes me asking politely to see, opens magazine,

SQUAM! (Wide eyes over top of fashion mag)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 03, 2016, 04:10:33 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 03, 2016, 12:25:47 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 02, 2016, 11:36:19 PM
http://thebrexitplan.com/

Covers everything related nicely.


:lulz:

SO FUCKING ZEN!  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 03, 2016, 10:59:17 AM
So, the Guardian has a stupid article about how Brexit may not be legal because of reasons.

It's a stupid article and I highly recommend ignoring it.  That said, the BBC actually has raised the possibility that Brexit would require contravening existing UK law, and thus require an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36671629

This raises all kinds of issues and questions, as I'm sure you can all see.  Especially when you keep in mind that 2/3rds of all MPs backed staying in the EU.

Bonus fun: Gove justifies knifing Boris in the back (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36696908) because he's the only Leave candidate qualified to lead the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 10:12:45 AM
To be fair, it is about time that someone actually thought through the legal side. The balance of MP's views has always been well known so it could cause all kinds of fun if they just decide to ignore it.

Today's comedy line:

QuoteIn his article Ben Wallace MP said: "When I was a government whip and Michael was the chief whip, the office leaked like a sieve.
"Important policy and personnel details made their way to the papers. Michael seems to have an emotional need to gossip, particularly when drink is taken, as it all too often seemed to be."

Liam Fox is apparently in the running. That's surprising considering he's covered in more shit than a small farm.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 10:23:26 AM
Also:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700350

QuoteA law firm is taking action to ensure the formal process for the UK leaving the EU is not started without an act of Parliament.
Mishcon de Reya, lawyers acting for a group of business people and academics, said it would be unlawful for a prime minister to trigger Article 50 without a full debate and vote in Parliament.

Given the speed and nature of UK courts, this could drag out for years. With any luck the matter will be passed to a series of ancient and senile judges who should have the sense to "contemplate the matter" for a while before dying and making it the next guy's problem. I doubt many MP's would have too much of a problem with letting this be a matter for the courts to decide about for a while. A long decision followed by a "you don't have the power to do this, the EU needs to grant it to you" would be great.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 10:33:18 AM
And Farage is apparently going too:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36702468

QuoteNigel Farage says he is standing down as leader of the UK Independence Party.
Mr Farage said he had "done my bit" following the UK's referendum vote to leave the EU.
He said the party was in a "pretty good place" and said he would not change his mind about quitting as he did after the 2015 general election.

Silver linings and all that. If this puppet molester can shut up for a week or two the bigotry might just drop down a notch.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 04, 2016, 10:54:15 AM
He drives the UK economy off a cliff, but in a shock twist, dives out before the car crashes into the rocks below. Now all he has to do is retire to Malta or somewhere, and reflect on how he took Britain back for the British people.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 04, 2016, 11:11:17 AM
Farage's wife is Lithuanian or something, isn't she?  It honestly wouldn't half surprise me if he did that.

On the other hand, Farage quit once before, and Lord Pearson turned UKIP into a counterjihadi horror show as leader, prompting The Nige's triumphant return.  And the last time he tried to resign, the party wouldn't let him.  I try to ignore Douglas Carswell as much as possible, but on a rating between 1 and Mecha-Hitler, just how much of a racist twat is he?  Because I'm thinking it's between him and Pearson as to who gets the crown, if Farage's resignation sticks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 11:42:43 AM
Carswell did note that the UKIP propaganda was a bit racist.

He was also later to remark that water is wet and was unsure if those cows were small or just very far away.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 04, 2016, 12:00:08 PM
I can see him being the preferable choice between the two, though his history re: the expenses scandal could definitely work against him.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
Either way, it's still just picking between STD's. You don't really want either of them and neither choice has any benefits.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: babyjesus on July 04, 2016, 06:04:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 03, 2016, 10:59:17 AM
So, the Guardian has a stupid article about how Brexit may not be legal because of reasons.

It's a stupid article and I highly recommend ignoring it.  That said, the BBC actually has raised the possibility that Brexit would require contravening existing UK law, and thus require an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36671629

This raises all kinds of issues and questions, as I'm sure you can all see.  Especially when you keep in mind that 2/3rds of all MPs backed staying in the EU.

Bonus fun: Gove justifies knifing Boris in the back (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36696908) because he's the only Leave candidate qualified to lead the country.

The Guardian is right, Parliament has full sovereignty and isn't bound to trigger art. 50. The Brelection was just an opinion poll and subsequent actions may sweep it out to sea.

Or not.

I don't really get the resistance. At all.

No matter how great it may be to be so lodged in the ass of the EU in some ways, the EU is already demonstrating itself to be a fascist kitty eater.

And revolution, liberty etc ain't easy, or free. There is gonna be some pain and some adjustment. Dig it!

But you get the chance to start over and be sovereign again. And ya'll are resilient.

WTF is there to be afraid of that even remotely compares to what you are gettin free from? You are doing Greece and Italy and Ireland and Spain huge favors in the short term and most of EUrope in the long term.

History will applaud you if you just follow through.

If you don't follow through then every dreamer in EUrope who imagines a life before fascism can just Greece their ass for a a good long fuck.

The future will be a prick stuffed down a human ass, forever.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 04, 2016, 06:47:10 PM
Do you even live in the EU?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 06:53:31 PM
QuoteHistory will applaud you if you just follow through.

Didn't someone say something similar prior to the charge of the light brigade? Kamikaze pilots were given similar words (and meth. No seriously, lots of meth) too and everything worked out OK there, right?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: babyjesus on July 04, 2016, 07:46:54 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 06:53:31 PM
QuoteHistory will applaud you if you just follow through.

Didn't someone say something similar prior to the charge of the light brigade? Kamikaze pilots were given similar words (and meth. No seriously, lots of meth) too and everything worked out OK there, right?

I love the smell of fear in the morning.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 07:48:31 PM
Quote from: AIbrdwthulrdy on July 04, 2016, 07:46:54 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 04, 2016, 06:53:31 PM
QuoteHistory will applaud you if you just follow through.

Didn't someone say something similar prior to the charge of the light brigade? Kamikaze pilots were given similar words (and meth. No seriously, lots of meth) too and everything worked out OK there, right?

I love the smell of fear in the morning.

"I'll take "things Sociopaths say" for $200 Bob."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 05, 2016, 12:16:14 PM
Ignoring the child...

The Chancellor has lowered corporate income tax (already the 2nd lowest in the developed world) to try and encourage investment in the UK.  It's not working though....Standard Life Investments have suspended trading in the UK precisely because people are pulling their money out.  And on the projections of the UK going into recession in the new year, the Bank of England is now loosening its restrictions on lending to banks.  Carney's no fool...he's moving now to try and position for when the crisis does hit.  Food prices are going to go up, and if the pound goes much lower against the dollar we will be looking at increased fuel prices...which ultimately means increased prices on most things.  I also remember the economic projections immediately after Brexit predicting an increase in taxes and decrease in public spending, both to offset the loss of EU funding in certain sectors and to try and offset the current economic conditions.

So everyone is going to get poorer, and things are going to go up in cost.  And then people will lose jobs.

With both Boris and Farage gone, and no-one trusting Gove any more unless he keeps both hands on the table and directly in front of people at all times, it's looking increasingly likely that our next PM will be Theresa May.  She may not be the worst option...I mean, when you consider how many Home Office ministers we went through until she came along, I think that alone speaks to a certain political expertise.  And with Osbourne out of the picture, she's the natural candidate for Cameron loyalists to rally around.  But May did campaign to Remain...and it's not clear she has any more idea of how to proceed on Brexit than anyone else.

Meanwhile, there is a shortage of new Irish passports in Northern Ireland, and Scotland continues to plan for independence.  So well done team.  We're not there yet, but if we keep trying we can totally rip the UK apart.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 12:32:44 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36712550
QuoteMr Juncker spoke of Leave camp "retro nationalists". "Patriots don't resign when things get difficult, they stay," he told MEPs in Strasbourg.
He also said he did not understand why those in the Brexit camp in the UK would want to wait before beginning the formal withdrawal process.
"Instead of developing the plan, they are leaving the boat," he said.

Current rumours include that George RR Martin is writing the plan. He promises it's nearly done and they'll have it soon.

 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 12:41:35 PM
QuoteFood prices are going to go up, and if the pound goes much lower against the dollar we will be looking at increased fuel prices...which ultimately means increased prices on most things.

I'm telling you, wait for the first winter fuel bill. People of all classes and colours are going to shit themselves when the choice is "Food, Warm or getting to work, Pick two of three".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 05, 2016, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 05, 2016, 12:16:14 PM

Meanwhile, there is a shortage of new Irish passports in Northern Ireland, and Scotland continues to plan for independence.  So well done team.  We're not there yet, but if we keep trying we can totally rip the UK apart.

yeah, the unionists while insisting there will be no referrendum on the north, and that everything is FINE, ITS ALL ABSOLUTELY FINE OK!?
are quietly telling their members to all apply for the Irish passport as it is "sound fiscal policy to have access to work in the European market"

It does make sense, I mean if you were given the choice of being allowed to work in the EU without a Visa, or not based on a piece of paper its an easy decision.

There's a depressing one I saw the other day: The children's hospital had a heart surgery ward in NI, which has been moved to Dublin a few years back... The surgeries are free for European children but would costs tens of thousands for people coming in from abroad. Of all the things for the north that need to be bargained with and set down on paper, that's one that really needs to be kept open to the people of NI.
There's those that will argue that the children could be flown to the UK, that is really not a good idea, especially when they can be safely transported to Dublin as an alternative.

Its really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 03:10:40 PM
QuoteIts really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.

Depressingly, this was one of my first assumptions. Sooner or later idiot nationalism gets people killed. Those people are typically the more vulnerable in society so I will be horrified but not surprised when this starts taking a toll on kids/elderly/disabled folk etc.

Cain, you mentioned two dead over brexit, there's the MP and the other was....?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 05, 2016, 03:15:49 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 03:10:40 PM
QuoteIts really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.

Depressingly, this was one of my first assumptions. Sooner or later idiot nationalism gets people killed. Those people are typically the more vulnerable in society so I will be horrified but not surprised when this starts taking a toll on kids/elderly/disabled folk etc.

Cain, you mentioned two dead over brexit, there's the MP and the other was....?

A generation's dreams.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 05, 2016, 03:18:53 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 03:10:40 PM
QuoteIts really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.

Depressingly, this was one of my first assumptions. Sooner or later idiot nationalism gets people killed. Those people are typically the more vulnerable in society so I will be horrified but not surprised when this starts taking a toll on kids/elderly/disabled folk etc.

Cain, you mentioned two dead over brexit, there's the MP and the other was....?

Polish schoolgirl committed suicide after bullying in wake of the results.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 03:37:17 PM
Ugh. Charming.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 05, 2016, 04:04:37 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 03:10:40 PM
QuoteIts really grim, of all the bad consequences of the Brexit that there are, I really didn't think dead children would be one of them.

Depressingly, this was one of my first assumptions. Sooner or later idiot nationalism gets people killed. Those people are typically the more vulnerable in society so I will be horrified but not surprised when this starts taking a toll on kids/elderly/disabled folk etc.

Cain, you mentioned two dead over brexit, there's the MP and the other was....?

All it takes is breakdown or partial breakdown of Normal Services, and the very young and the very old start dying like flies.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 05, 2016, 04:21:41 PM
Well, junior doctors are currently pissed at the government and there's no telling how Brexit may impact on medical prices.  So....
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 04:39:39 PM
....Invest in Funerary services?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 05, 2016, 04:41:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 05, 2016, 04:21:41 PM
Well, junior doctors are currently pissed at the government and there's no telling how Brexit may impact on medical prices.  So....

There is a hiring shortage (in general, regardless of Brexit), it will result in a smaller pool of available staff, which results in longer hours for junior doctors, or closures (which is already happening because of lack of staff), and that's even with the ideal conditions of no strikes for the Junior doctors.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 05:27:37 PM
Futher to Cain's above post:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36715806

QuoteM&G Investments has followed two other major finance firms and suspended trading in the UK's biggest property fund following the Brexit vote.
M&G said withdrawals from its £4.4bn fund had risen markedly because of "high levels of uncertainty in the UK commercial property market" since the outcome of the referendum.
Earlier, the UK's biggest insurer, Aviva, halted its £1.8bn property fund.
Financial regulators have said they will reassess such property funds.
Three of the biggest providers of the funds - which offer investors returns from commercial property - have now frozen trading after Standard Life suspended its £2.9bn UK property fund on Monday.

QuoteHousing firms Berkeley Group, Barratt Developments and Persimmon all fell more than 6% on Tuesday, while shares commercial property firm Land Securities dropped lost 3%.

QuoteThe last time Standard Life stopped investors taking money out of its UK real estate fund was during the financial crisis in late 2008.

I'm struggling to write anything extra that isn't just fucking obvious.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 05:32:55 PM
Some HA HA?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36717447

QuoteEx-Conservative chancellor Ken Clarke has called the Tory leadership contest a "fiasco" and made disparaging remarks about the candidates.
Footage of the veteran MP preparing for an interview was released by Sky News.
He said Andrea Leadsom had said some "extremely stupid things" and predicted Michael Gove would take the UK to war "with three countries at once".
He was talking to ex-foreign secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind. Neither appeared to realise they were being recorded.

QuoteMr Clarke, who has himself lost out when standing for Conservative leader three times, said he would probably end up supporting Home Secretary Theresa May.
He praised her but said she was a "bloody difficult woman", telling Sir Malcolm: "But you and I worked for Margaret Thatcher."
Turning to his assessment of Brexit campaigner and energy minister Mrs Leadsom, the Europhile Conservative MP said: "She's not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics, who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside the single market.
"So long as she understands that she is not to deliver on some of the extremely stupid things that she's been saying."

Fucking classic. We can only hope for more commentary of a similar nature in the future.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Bruno on July 05, 2016, 08:14:57 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 05, 2016, 12:32:44 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36712550
QuoteMr Juncker spoke of Leave camp "retro nationalists". "Patriots don't resign when things get difficult, they stay," he told MEPs in Strasbourg.
He also said he did not understand why those in the Brexit camp in the UK would want to wait before beginning the formal withdrawal process.
"Instead of developing the plan, they are leaving the boat," he said.

Current rumours include that George RR Martin is writing the plan. He promises it's nearly done and they'll have it soon.



Come to think of it, It's been a while since England suffered a plague of dragons. I'd say they're probably due.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 06, 2016, 03:20:00 AM
Sterling's hit a new overnight low in the Asian markets.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 06, 2016, 03:36:57 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 06, 2016, 03:20:00 AM
Sterling's hit a new overnight low in the Asian markets.

I just looked at it over the last 30 days.  It's awful. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: babyjesus on July 06, 2016, 05:52:01 AM
relax.

Breathe.

Tptb definitely want to punish brexiteers and anybody in that path for obvious reasons. And they can.

But given half a chance and if of a certain size markets either self correct or it costs a buttload of money or something worse (like rigging LIBOR and gold prices in tandem with serial bankomplices) to eternally or even longtermally kill a currency.

The pound predates modern democracy and has survived threats as varied and sundry as anything in the wholly bible. It will survive the short selling sharks from the EU banks (on life support).

2000 years from now when only fruit flies, cock roaches and blue green algae populate the planet the Brit pound will still be a fully convertible currency with a stable history as a reserve currency within a larger basket of reserve currencies.

word!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 06, 2016, 08:06:34 AM
Hopefully it will recover 5p or so in the next couple of months, or It's going to be a very expensive winter.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2016, 05:32:03 PM
Liam Fox got his dying (political career) wish.  Michael Gove comes third and is out.  Should've stuck with Boris, angled for a Home Minister position, then stabbed him in the back, Michael, not done it in plain sight for the world media to see.  Theresa May versus Andrea Leadsom, her of the somewhat inflated CV.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on July 07, 2016, 07:20:46 PM
OK, I have no frame of reference for these women.  Anyone care to give a brief and fair primer?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2016, 08:24:43 PM
Quote from: LMNO on July 07, 2016, 07:20:46 PM
OK, I have no frame of reference for these women.  Anyone care to give a brief and fair primer?

Theresa May.  Secretary of State for the Home Office under David Cameron since the 2010 elections.  Campaigned to remain in the EU, but has taken a hard line on immigrants in the past.  Has the grudging respect of the Home Office civil service and police...they don't necessarily like her, but when they see the shower of shit that is happening in most other departments, they realise how much worse things could be.  Is the longest serving Home Office minister since RA Butler in 1962, so her political infighting skills should not be understated, especially when compared with the revolving door that was installed during Labour's last period in power.  Very "law and order" candidate, has significantly toughened up and re-organised several aspects of how the police work and given them broader powers to monitor social media.  Likes shoes (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11450145/Theresa-Mays-greatest-footwear-hits.html) (also the Telgraph's readers are probably feet fetishists, which is the only reason that particular piece ever got published).

Andrea Leadsom.  Is the junior minister at the Department of Energy and Climate Change, working under Amber Rudd.  Supported the Leave campaign.  Previously worked as Economic Secretary to the Treasury, was apparently a disaster" ... "The worst minister we ever had" ... "She found it difficult to understand issues or take decisions. She was monomaniacal, seeing the EU as the source of every problem. She alienated officials by continually complaining about poor drafting".  Apparently asked tough questions during the Libor rigging scandal, however. Abstained from voting to legalise gay marriage in the UK.  Criticised the head of the Bank of England for suggesting Brexit may lead to a short term economic downturn.  Allegedly inflated her CV.  Pretty much a nobody until the referendum, and very much second-tier even in campaigning for that.  Is backed by Boris Johnson.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on July 07, 2016, 08:46:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 07, 2016, 08:24:43 PM

Andrea Leadsom... Is backed by Boris Johnson.


Sheeeeeet.  That's all you had to say, mate!

Honestly though, thanks for the recap. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2016, 08:55:14 PM
Also worth noting about Leadsom:

"She told Tim Ross of The Daily Telegraph: "I am a very committed Christian. I think my values and everything I do is driven by that." She participates in "various Bible studies groups" with other parliamentarians and prays "all the time"."

Edit: its also probably worth mentioning the tax-dodging, too.  She hasn't read up to that bit in the Bible about rendering unto Caesar though.

Edit 2: also worth reading for a laugh https://twitter.com/misszing/status/751080106194501632
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 08, 2016, 01:23:11 AM
Oh, and May is refusing to affirm the ongoing residency and employment rights of currently residing EU citizens.  In other words, she is saying deportment is potentially on the table.  This would, in turn, open up the possibility of retaliation from the EU and the deporting of British nationals overseas.

Remember, out of the two, May is considered the moderate and reasonable option.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 08, 2016, 04:35:06 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 07, 2016, 08:55:14 PM
Also worth noting about Leadsom:

"She told Tim Ross of The Daily Telegraph: "I am a very committed Christian. I think my values and everything I do is driven by that." She participates in "various Bible studies groups" with other parliamentarians and prays "all the time"."

Edit: its also probably worth mentioning the tax-dodging, too.  She hasn't read up to that bit in the Bible about rendering unto Caesar though.

Edit 2: also worth reading for a laugh https://twitter.com/misszing/status/751080106194501632

Tangentially related -
I was recently watching a clip of the BBC coverage of the return of Apollo 13 and I was quite shocked that the language they used was religiously neutral/agnostic.
Cliff Michelmore: "We're now coming to the moment, the last moments of Apollo 13, as it comes in, as it begins its re-entry. The best thing anyone can do now is just to HOPE."
James Burke: [snip]" there's very little anyone can do except wait and CROSS THEIR FINGERS . . ."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A82Ol8J1g_I

It kind of slapped me in the face that I now live in a world where every mothers son/daughter in the broadcast news business would have prayed those poor benighted astronauts all the way to the moon and back.

I'm starting to feel very old and seriously alienated.

My memory may be screwed but my perception is that it all stems from the bitch Thatcher who stood on the doorstep of 10 Downing Street in 1979 and PRAYED at the nation. I mean, WTF, she PRAYED at us!

And now we seem to be drifting inexorably into 51st statehood where you can't get elected unless you confess that some invisible friend is your lord and saviour. [I wanted to make that lord/lady, but I don't think that would fly - yet]

/threadjack
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 08, 2016, 01:52:47 PM
Could be.  I'm not entirely sure where it's coming from, but I know I don't like it.

There have also been subtle efforts to try and bring the Tory party into some kind of religious mission.  Mostly fringe MPs, like Ms Leadsom get picked up, or else you have poseurs like Cameron because, and lets be honest here, most Tories don't care about much other than power of an earthly, material and secular kind (and I can respect them for that).

In other news, reported hate crimes are up 42% for the second half of June.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36746763

QuoteMore than 3,000 hate crimes and incidents were reported to police in the second half of June this year, an increase of 42% on 2015, National Police Chiefs' Council figures show.

The reports were made between 16-30 June and half of this period falls after the UK voted to leave the European Union on 23 June.

At the peak in offending on 25 June, 289 offences occurred across the UK.

Assistant Chief Constable Mark Hamilton said the "sharp rise" was unacceptable.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 12:31:54 PM
Well it's always nice to have anecdotal evidence confirmed. Helps me think I'm not just seeing shit or being more aware of it after the fact.

In other news, Leadsom's quit, because 'tis the season. So it's May.

Ian Hislop was on Question time this week. Very little screen time but the stabs and asides at the other attendees was quite nice. Someone at QT must have owed him a favour to shove him on the same show as Galloway and Falconer. Very impressive "I want to keep my job, regardless" by Falconer with Praise for Blair and Corbyn. The Corbyn line is particularly amusing as he was one of the many who also quit their job recently.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 11, 2016, 01:47:41 PM
lol, wouldn't be surprised if May quit as well now. Eventually it will be a case that a random draw will need to be done, and the victim dragged out and publicly forced to be the Prime minister.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 01:56:57 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 11, 2016, 01:47:41 PM
lol, wouldn't be surprised if May quit as well now. Eventually it will be a case that a random draw will need to be done, and the victim dragged out and publicly forced to be the Prime minister.

Its a nice idea, Faust, but I think the party is going to have to be pried from her cold, dead hands. I think the distant rumble I can hear is the biggest beasts of the right moving the furniture around to suit themselves. [so no change there then - no matter how it looks]


ETA I hope this is viewable stateside but this was the bit of Ian Hislop of Question Time that really shone for me
http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/08/ian-hislop-hit-the-nail-on-the-head-on-brexit-5994922/ian-hislop-3/
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 02:39:44 PM
I don't know, it's a big game of "Touched it last" now. May was anti-exit and does know the level of shit an exit would unleash. If she goes for it, everything's fucked. If she doesn't, she's weak politically and then politically fucked because everyones convinced that the result is a must-do mandate.

Quitting because of lack of a proper contest would probably be one of the better moves.

It's even more hilarious because it's hardly like the UK government has given much consideration to public feeling over any issue and yet a non-binding mandate is forcing everyone to make idiotic decisions. Will be fun to see who's the first person to say "Fuck the result, our platform is about staying in"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 03:34:30 PM
Well I don't suppose that's going to be Theresa May who is busy screeching "Brexit means Brexit" :(
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 04:30:13 PM
I suspect that the longer this goes on the closer we'll get to "Brexit means brexit if we can get X concession (that we have no chance of getting) and only then will we move forward to brexit."

If anyone actually does trigger article 50 then every single bit of subsequent shit is going to be laid at their feet. The political legacy will make anyone envy Blair.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 11, 2016, 04:40:06 PM
Well, that was sort of unexpected.  Any word on what forced Leadsom out?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:21:44 PM
Suspect it is due to boats - votes. gathered at last round, did not show a strong enough lead to be a serious contender so do a deal for a decent job under her mMay. Deal should be obvious earlyish Wednesday when she takes over and an ouncesannounces  who has what job. Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level. If anything particularly noteworthy probably  additional promises of support at future leadership campaign when she isn't actually third tier unknown.

Better.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 11, 2016, 04:40:06 PM
Well, that was sort of unexpected.  Any word on what forced Leadsom out?

Nothing overt but my money is on the 1922 committee - specifically, whoever it was who dictated her letter of withdrawal


ALSO - do you really find it unexpected? It felt like rain following the sunshine to me - despite the shrill excitement and cum faces of the BBC reporters I've been watching this afternoon.

and Yes I know listening to the Beeb news channel is like reading reply columns, but it is one of my guilty pleasures. If you can't enjoy the news at least you can watch the complex intrigues and manipulations, yanno?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 11, 2016, 05:30:59 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:21:44 PM
Suspect it is due to boats gathered at last round did not show a strong enough lead to be a serious contender so do a deal for a decent job under her may. Deal should be obvious earlyish Wednesday when she takes over and an ounces who has what job. Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level. If anything particularly noteworthy probably  additional promises of support at future leadership campaign when she isn't actually third tier unknown.

Education or Health then. Home Secretary for the most hilarity  :horrormirth:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:21:44 PM
Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level.

so Kennel maid to the local hunt, eh?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:21:44 PM
Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level.

so Kennel maid to the local hunt, eh?

She'd struggle with "minister of finding own arse with Atlas"

Gove has issued statement of support for May. Shows that you can get it right when there is only one choice at least. Could be amusing if he gets Jilted from the entire cabinet because of his poor decision-making and foresight over the past few weeks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:42:17 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:21:44 PM
Money on her being given something hilariously beyond her competence level.

so Kennel maid to the local hunt, eh?

She'd struggle with "minister of finding own arse with Atlas"

Gove has issued statement of support for May. Shows that you can get it right when there is only one choice at least. Could be amusing if he gets Jilted from the entire cabinet because of his poor decision-making and foresight over the past few weeks.

If poor decision making was relevant to high public office the Palace of Westminster would be empty of everybody but the cleaners and the rats . . .


ETA And within 5 mins of May's statement to camera accepting the poison chalice Justine Greeing MP announces to the Beeb that "Theresa has united the party"
Wow, that was quick wasn't it? And if they say it often enough and the BBC give them enough air time to repeat it ad nauseam the people will believe it, won't they.
£350m a week for the NHS anyone?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:46:36 PM
Problem is he has kept on making Poor Decisions in public which makes him look a bit of a tit. Would you be inclined to trust a guy who supported everyone else before you? Cabinet position still likely to be given their due to prominence in EU campaign so he can fuck something else up.

Please ignore strange typos shouting at phone to configure it and translation highly questionable at moment.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:54:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:46:36 PM
Problem is he has kept on making Poor Decisions in public which makes him look a bit of a tit. Would you be inclined to trust a guy who supported everyone else before you? Cabinet position still likely to be given their due to prominence in EU campaign so he can fuck something else up.

Please ignore strange typos shouting at phone to configure it and translation highly questionable at moment.

I particularly liked "and an ounces". Glad it is a gremlin thing and not an incipient stroke.  :wink:

Also Gove isn't the only one with decision making skills between zip and zilch. There's that Pig fucker Cameron who got us into this shitty mess in the first place through his catastrophically incompetent decision making and May has just gushed over his blessed memory thanking him for his leadership.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:57:56 PM
Cameron surely not stupid enough to pursue politics As Anything beyond backbencher at best. Will be inclined to put as much distance from himself and a pile of shit as he can so would expect him to follow footsteps of Blair to greater or lesser extent.

edit because fucking phone.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 05:59:15 PM
For reference this voice to text software is utter shite.

Open to recommendations because it seems like it should be better than this by now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 11, 2016, 06:29:20 PM
Quote from: MMIX on July 11, 2016, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 11, 2016, 04:40:06 PM
Well, that was sort of unexpected.  Any word on what forced Leadsom out?

Nothing overt but my money is on the 1922 committee - specifically, whoever it was who dictated her letter of withdrawal


ALSO - do you really find it unexpected? It felt like rain following the sunshine to me - despite the shrill excitement and cum faces of the BBC reporters I've been watching this afternoon.

and Yes I know listening to the Beeb news channel is like reading reply columns, but it is one of my guilty pleasures. If you can't enjoy the news at least you can watch the complex intrigues and manipulations, yanno?

Well, I was asleep until 16:25, so I've not seen any coverage up until I posted that.

However, I did think Leadsom was stupid enough to think she had a chance, and drag the whole thing out.  Looking at some of her supporters within the party, and the defensive way they speak about her, I could see someone of her personality type treating that as The Will Of The People.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 11, 2016, 06:49:40 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 12:31:54 PM
Well it's always nice to have anecdotal evidence confirmed. Helps me think I'm not just seeing shit or being more aware of it after the fact.

In other news, Leadsom's quit, because 'tis the season. So it's May.

Ian Hislop was on Question time this week. Very little screen time but the stabs and asides at the other attendees was quite nice. Someone at QT must have owed him a favour to shove him on the same show as Galloway and Falconer. Very impressive "I want to keep my job, regardless" by Falconer with Praise for Blair and Corbyn. The Corbyn line is particularly amusing as he was one of the many who also quit their job recently.

This all looks so horribly familiar.  Sort of like going from 25+ GOP candidates to Donald Trump inside of a month.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 11, 2016, 07:01:28 PM
It's kind of like that, only with the added fun of them gaining leadership of the country with fuck all mandate and no idea what to do about anything, really.

Considering the opposition is a joke, if you were inclined to do so you could probably push some horrific shit through quickly on the QT. A few people noticed the change in the juniors doctors contract situation in the past few days so there's going to be plenty of planned headline days to bury bad news. 

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 11, 2016, 08:29:13 PM
Well, in a sense at least it is May.  She's horrible, but she's predictably and routinely horrible in the way we've come to expect from Cameron and co.

Leadsom would've been an entirely different, potentially Trump-esque breed of horrible (especially given her comments on Scottish people).  We can survive May.  I'm not sure we could survive a sockpuppet run by 20 different crazy backbenchers.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 12, 2016, 10:05:54 AM
This is true. That said, there are many different levels that you can call "Survival". I'm not saying that it's all going to turn into a mad-max shithole overnight, but I can see a few quick steps towards dystopia if she gets her shit together quickly enough and there's still no united opposition.

Also, all bets taken on the next person to quit.
Current favourites and given reasons:
The queen (Charlie's got to get a go sometime, right?)
May (no mandate/just for fun)
Smith(To give support to eagle against corbyn)
Eagle(As above, but in reverse)
Corbyn ("ill health....")


I was talking about this shitshow to a few people yesterday. It's actually been pretty fucking hilarious as our political system is currently on the level of somewhere that has a new dictator so frequently people struggle to remember who is apparently in charge. It'd be comical apart from the fact that the longer it goes on the more shitty it has to get to sort it all out. It's a fairly safe bet that who-ever ends up in charge (even if/after an election) will probably need to start some kind of austerity #2 bullshit in order to save up enough cash to cover the costs and immediate upfront expenses of an exit. It will also help set another new normal so when large chunks of funding vanish it's not felt quite as badly.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2016, 04:50:18 PM
You know who still hasn't quit?

Nick Clegg  :lulz:

I don't think May will be PM for long.  I could be wrong here, but I think the Maggie Thatcher comparisons will die off, to be replaced by the Gordon Brown ones (no mandate).

Also, she has said she will be putting Oliver Letwin MP in charge of the Brexit Unit.  Letwin...would not be my first choice.  My father, as a civil servant, has dealt a lot with Letwin, and has an interesting take on him, due to the many hours of interaction with him. As far as he's concerned, Letwin is clearly an extremely smart man, but he mostly uses his impressive intellect to convince himself that whatever he wants to believe is right, and it is very difficult for him to shift gears on an issue once he has made up his mind.  It makes him incredibly exasperating to deal with, as you can throw all the facts in the world at him and while he will concede the facts, he won't budge on the logical conclusion that follows from them unless he's already predisposed to do so.

He also has an impressive history of public gaffes and actually campaigned for Remain.  This could cause some serious tension within the unit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 12, 2016, 07:06:34 PM
Shit, I forgot about Clegg. I assumed he had just vanished into the political wilderness. Or up his own arse. Either way, this is the most he's been discussed in months. 

As for May's duration, I suspect the deals being done with the media will help determine that. The Murdoch media is largely for her, as is the Daily hate so that's a decent level of support to kick any platform off from. How closely she follows the respective proprietors whims will probably influence the next few weeks headlines to a significant degree.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 12, 2016, 09:47:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 12, 2016, 04:50:18 PM
You know who still hasn't quit?

Nick Clegg  :lulz:

I don't think May will be PM for long.  I could be wrong here, but I think the Maggie Thatcher comparisons will die off, to be replaced by the Gordon Brown ones (no mandate).

Also, she has said she will be putting Oliver Letwin MP in charge of the Brexit Unit.  Letwin...would not be my first choice.  My father, as a civil servant, has dealt a lot with Letwin, and has an interesting take on him, due to the many hours of interaction with him. As far as he's concerned, Letwin is clearly an extremely smart man, but he mostly uses his impressive intellect to convince himself that whatever he wants to believe is right, and it is very difficult for him to shift gears on an issue once he has made up his mind.  It makes him incredibly exasperating to deal with, as you can throw all the facts in the world at him and while he will concede the facts, he won't budge on the logical conclusion that follows from them unless he's already predisposed to do so.

He also has an impressive history of public gaffes and actually campaigned for Remain.  This could cause some serious tension within the unit.

Oliver Wetwind is another one of those "Eton Messes" so that sounds about par for the course
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2016, 10:19:34 PM
Actually that was wrong about Clegg.  I forgot Tim Farron took over from him.

Which doesn't say much for Farron.  He was a reasonable party President, but as a leader he's pretty lacklustre.  Then again it's hard to do anything with 8 MPs
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 13, 2016, 12:31:25 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 12, 2016, 10:19:34 PM
Actually that was wrong about Clegg.  I forgot Tim Farron took over from him.

Which doesn't say much for Farron.  He was a reasonable party President, but as a leader he's pretty lacklustre.  Then again it's hard to do anything with 8 MPs

I bet you Jeremy Thorpe and Paddy Pantsdown could find something spectacular and newsworthy to do with 8 MPs  :wink:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 04:00:24 PM
OK, we were all wrong:

QuoteJapanese Emperor Akihito 'wishes to abdicate'
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 13, 2016, 04:57:21 PM
What a quitter.

I do wonder at the timing though.  Shinzo Abe is putting Japan back on a path to full militarization...is this just an abdication, or a protest?  It is the first time this has happened since 1817.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 07:31:39 PM
Too early - Osbourne's gone too.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 07:48:38 PM
Boris apparently foreign secretary.

This is going to be an astonishing shitshow.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 13, 2016, 08:15:01 PM
 :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth:



:eek:

[there are no words]
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 13, 2016, 08:19:08 PM
This means after Letwin, Boris will be de facto in charge of Brexit too.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 13, 2016, 08:40:42 PM
Yeah that's going to be his poison chalice. And his length of rope.
Also He got us into this bind lets see how good he is at fixing the mess he made :popcorn:
Also, also I almost felt sorry for George Osbourne for a brief moment earlier but I'm over it now
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 11:31:51 PM
New cabinet was supposed to be announced yesterday am. Still no complete list. Suspect it's a struggle to find the required numbers of mps willing to commit to actually being an MP for 15+ days out if a month. We know many have 2/3+ outside appointments so this is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Naturally, the book is open on all new promotions.


Cain disqualified and refunded in part in light of insider info. Inquiry results to be published in 3 days.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 11:32:23 PM
I mean 3 months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 11:32:44 PM
Sorry, 12 years.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 13, 2016, 11:33:53 PM
Actually, 19th of July 2038.

Apologies to those defrauded in the interim.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 09:29:52 AM
Reactions to the Cabinet, such as it is:

Chancellor Hammond: boring, safe, non-entity.  Will do as he's told.  Would have been called "wet" by Thatcher.

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson:  :horrormirth:

Home Secretary Amber Rudd: Her CV includes a job as an "aristocracy coordinator".  You don't need to now anything more than this.

Defence Secretary Michael Fallon: Hypocrite and moral imbecile, preaches Christian values while attending lavish dinners put on by the arms industry.

Secretary of State for Exiting the EU David Davis: standard Tory libertarian hypocrite.  Sees no conflict in advocating for the death penalty while decrying state overreach on civil liberties.

Secretary of State for International Trade Liam Fox: Has taken money from the Sri Lankan, Bahraini governments.  Adam Werrity.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 09:55:31 AM
Fox is nearly as stunning as Boris.

Again, I suggest that these are the people able to promise to attend for 20 15 8 days of every month parliament's in session.

It really is shaping up to be a full on shitshow rather than just a horrible and unpleasant period. Between Davis, Fox and Boris alone you're going to be neck deep in corruption and poor decisions.

Any word what happened with Letwin and the exit post? Not my first choice but better than the current appointment(s).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 09:59:35 AM
Nothing so far.  It may be that Davis will be in charge of Brexit, but Letwin will head the "Brexit unit".

Or it may be that Letwin has been dropped after the Foreign Affairs Committee pointed out he was an idiot last week.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 10:08:53 AM
I'd suggest the second is unlikely. Remember, Boris has a job now.

With the rate new posts are being created I'm half expecting Farage to get a job as "Minister of Fags and port".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 10:11:15 AM
But he is actually qualified for that role.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 10:27:02 AM
Stopped clocks and all that.

Apparently Gove is right out, for what that's worth.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 14, 2016, 11:50:29 AM
The political journos outside no 10 are having way too much fun. As witness one Daily Wail journo who just giggled that this is "Morning Gory", and the BBC boys keep sniggering in disbelief. Or guffawing every time someone has to say that Boris is Foreign Secretary
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 12:30:12 PM
To be fair, I still can't say that without at least a snort.

More appointments: Hunt remains(Why?), Morgan gone(Who?) Gove confirmed gone(Silver lining). Grayling still in(meh.).

Thinking on this further, it seems the last person actually trying to make a positive change to UK government was Guy Fawkes.

Predicting at least minor riots within 3 months. "Camerons legacy" type articles strangely lacking any mention of this.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 12:42:37 PM
Truss in.

Jesus, it's getting silly now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Truss#Criticism

QuoteCritics who have attempted to engage with her, according to George Monbiot in The Guardian,[72] have said that she is "indissolubly wedded to a set of theories about how the world should be, that are impervious to argument, facts or experience. She was among the first ministers to put her own department on the block in the latest spending review, volunteering massive cuts. She seems determined to dismantle the protections that secure our quality of life: the rules and agencies defending the places and wildlife we love."

This is rather kind. Her history in general is rather shitty and poor decision making is a constant feature.

Information released so far is starting to beg the question of "who wil fuck up first?"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on July 14, 2016, 01:22:55 PM
The political betting markets must be really wild right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 02:15:45 PM
Crabb's quit(Work and pensions, get out before the bomb explodes). Seem's he's still a little upset over everyone not wanting to be crab people.

For those who may actually be curious about the current betting market:
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics

Some interesting odds given for a few things in there. Seems relatively on the money too. I've had a quick check on a few other bookies and they're largely in agreement.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 14, 2016, 02:22:52 PM
Next labour party leader after Corbyn - Tony Blair 200-1
:spittake:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 14, 2016, 04:15:35 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 12:42:37 PM
Truss in.

Jesus, it's getting silly now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Truss#Criticism

QuoteCritics who have attempted to engage with her, according to George Monbiot in The Guardian,[72] have said that she is "indissolubly wedded to a set of theories about how the world should be, that are impervious to argument, facts or experience. She was among the first ministers to put her own department on the block in the latest spending review, volunteering massive cuts. She seems determined to dismantle the protections that secure our quality of life: the rules and agencies defending the places and wildlife we love."

This is rather kind. Her history in general is rather shitty and poor decision making is a constant feature.

Information released so far is starting to beg the question of "who wil fuck up first?"

Well apparently that would be Theresa May  :roll:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 04:36:05 PM
I hate this fucking phone.

I meant "Fuck up enough to get the sack".

Leadsom gets environment. So, fox hunting's going to be back soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 04:37:22 PM
Climate change role abolished. That's just not something an island needs to concern its-self about.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 04:39:01 PM
Andrea Leadsom is now Environment minister.  One thing I will say in favour of Truss, she mostly left Rory Stewart to do what he wanted, and Stewart's not a complete fool.  From what I can see, he remains in place as Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Environment and Rural Affairs, so hopefully that will continue.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 04:50:44 PM
Boris has stopped being funny now. I've just realised/remembered the relationship of MI6 and the foreign office.


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2016, 04:56:52 PM
Yup.

Boris has also directly insulted both of the leading candidates in the American presidential election, too
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 05:22:22 PM
It's probably quicker to make a list of people he hasn't insulted.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 14, 2016, 05:32:07 PM
Mundell (the only Scottish Tory MP) is sec. For Scotland.

What a shock.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 15, 2016, 09:45:27 AM
So far today:

Boris went to Nice, gave a speech, was not received warmly. Then a truck kills 80+ people. Not the best of starts. I'm not saying these two things are connected, but for plenty of french people it'll now be quite hard to separate the two.

Leadsom is apparently to tell farmers various subsidies are going.

May's heading to Scotland to give the SNP a helping hand with their next campaign. Possibly the most pointless trip of the week as there's fuck all middle ground to find and the SNP have made that pretty clear over the past few years. Second independence referendum calls ongoing and will likely only get stronger in direct relation to how likely exit looks.





Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 15, 2016, 02:26:28 PM
In between the latest terrorist updates, rail minister has quit today.

Strong start for this government all round.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 15, 2016, 04:34:50 PM
David Davis has said Brexit will be triggered by, or before the start of 2017.

Needless to say, I'm not placing any heavy bets on that actually happening.  Especially with the legal challenge about requiring a Parliamentary vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 15, 2016, 10:59:17 PM
I'm just waiting for both the Turkish Army and President Erdoğan to announce that they are in talks with Angela Merkel to to expedite Turkish membership of the EU. Well I could do with a good laugh
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 15, 2016, 11:02:29 PM
Wait for the 9am shoddy statement from Boris for that.

Memo to self to quotemine leave/remain remarks RE turkey. Some seem to have prior knowledge
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 19, 2016, 07:38:56 PM
Eagle quits labour leader run.
No bets on who she may back.

Hey Cain, care to take stab at possible outcomes here? I'm not even sure where to start
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 25, 2016, 01:58:57 PM
UK apparently trying to do some kind of trade deal with china. Considering how much internal propaganda is kicking around in china regarding "unequal treaties" extending back to the opium wars, I can only assume that this is China's big chance to get nice and even. Calling it now that any such deal will be massively weighted in one sides favour and this side will not be the UK. I'm pretty confident in this as China recently totally fucked the UK steel market and that's not really a talking point any more. Small bet on building sector to take the next hit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 25, 2016, 09:32:55 PM
And that's not even counting the flight of the doves happening with the financials right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 25, 2016, 09:38:16 PM
I'm sorry, I thought we were pretending that wasn't happening?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on July 25, 2016, 09:52:11 PM
"Flight of the doves"?  That sounds dramatic.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 26, 2016, 02:04:50 AM
When a country becomes unfavourable to big industry or the rich, and they withdraw their wealth en masse. For instance a country trying to close the wage gap by increasing taxes on the rich can end up with a net loss when the rich remove their money from the country.

I'm not sure where the name comes from.

In this case most every financial institution that deals with day to day transactions within the EU would suddenly have all kinds of red tape on their transactions, potentially reduced client base,  and added complexity on its own assets. As such all of them are either threatening to relocate, or have already started the process.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 26, 2016, 02:27:54 AM
Capital investor and industry flight, basically.  Because being located in the UK will no longer mean guaranteed access to the EU market, banks are looking at shifting to Dublin or Frankfurt, for example.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 27, 2016, 04:04:49 AM
Quote from: Faust on July 26, 2016, 02:04:50 AMI'm not sure where the name comes from.

Indeed. Why doves? If I had to choose an organism, intestinal flora would be more apt. Absolutely disgusting, yet their absence will cause problems.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 10:03:06 AM
QuoteIn this case most every financial institution that deals with day to day transactions within the EU would suddenly have all kinds of red tape on their transactions, potentially reduced client base,  and added complexity on its own assets. As such all of them are either threatening to relocate, or have already started the process.

I've taken on work within the EU, from the UK. There were certain things that were an utter ballache but nothing that I couldn't actually deal with. The biggest headaches were tax and transport. I wasn't doing transactions daily, but multiple ones weekly once the projects were rolling.

All 3 clients out there now literally cannot work with me now unless I move out there, setup and undertake the work as a french/dutch/german firm as we both just don't know what the situation is likely to be with multiple things. Clients are pretty pissed off as it's a diktat from on high and they'd prefer to use me. Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible to tell what a fair deal is likely to be for when the work commences and that fucks me out of the entire bidding/tender process.

So fucking thanks the 52% of you that have just cost me I don't even know how the fuck much. Your bullshit reasoning and paying attention to nonsense lies have fucked up a very good thing because you can't deal with hearing the odd fucking accent in an ASDA.

I am not a happy man today.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 27, 2016, 11:20:57 AM
But . . . the Sovereignty . . . think of the Sovereignty. We've taken back Control. Surely that's worth a few quid?

Well the sovereignty and banana shaped bananas, yanno?




also:- really sorry to hear about the hit you're taking, Junkenstein.  They keep saying 'We have to respect the views of our fellow citizens' but damned if I can see why atm. Cos apparently 52% of them are too stupid to vote, too self-interested to respect [yes I'm looking at you Boris] and a goodly number of them make my flesh crawl and seem to be the sort of racists/fascists we used to be so proud of ourselves for beating back in the day
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
It's a little frustrating as 2 of the projects are essentially "Part B, just do the same again". The clients are acutely aware that they're going to have headaches and bullshit just dealing with all the standard crap I went through with them and we were quite happy last year that the next ones were going to be much easier. That's not the case anymore. One has a fair idea who will probably get the contract award without my involvement. His opinion was something like "Gang of cunts, argue over the price of every screw". I paraphrase, but you get the feeling. 

QuoteThey keep saying 'We have to respect the views of our fellow citizens' but damned if I can see why atm.

No. Lies and horseshit. Respect is earned, not just given away because you can spout any old toss and claim it to be sacrosanct because you've got a fucking opinion. This kind of thinking is going to get pretty fucking poisonous over the next few months as the current political establishments push the "will of the people" shite.

I'm seriously considering looking into registering a firm or two offshore, because fuck this. I'm actually quite sick of paying anything into supporting this ongoing shitshow. If you can think of a reason against this, you're a better human than I.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Eater of Clowns on July 27, 2016, 02:47:51 PM
Man, I bet Pratchett could have written one hell of a Discworld book about all this.

:sad:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 03:27:34 PM
"Venitari dies leading to Morpork campaigning to leave Ankh. Head of Builders guild has convinced Morpork residents that a big wall is needed to stop Ankh citizens abusing their services. Plot thickens when it turn out Morpork has no services it's actually a huge scam to implement some kind of apartheid so Ankh citizens can have no waiting for anything. Backers financing the split are revealed to be Quirm and various historic entities enemies."

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on July 27, 2016, 03:41:02 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 03:27:34 PM
"Venitari dies leading to Morpork campaigning to leave Ankh. Head of Builders guild has convinced Morpork residents that a big wall is needed to stop Ankh citizens abusing their services. Plot thickens when it turn out Morpork has no services it's actually a huge scam to implement some kind of apartheid so Ankh citizens can have no waiting for anything. Backers financing the split are revealed to be Quirm and various historic entities enemies."


Sounds like a Carrot story.  "A King Divided".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 27, 2016, 03:49:38 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 03:27:34 PM
"Venitari dies leading to Morpork campaigning to leave Ankh. Head of Builders guild has convinced Morpork residents that a big wall is needed to stop Ankh citizens abusing their services. Plot thickens when it turn out Morpork has no services it's actually a huge scam to implement some kind of apartheid so Ankh citizens can have no waiting for anything. Backers financing the split are revealed to be Quirm and various historic entities enemies."

You should post that to the Original Story Ideas thread in the Literate Chaotic board
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 04:31:28 PM
Quote from: LMNO on July 27, 2016, 03:41:02 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 27, 2016, 03:27:34 PM
"Venitari dies leading to Morpork campaigning to leave Ankh. Head of Builders guild has convinced Morpork residents that a big wall is needed to stop Ankh citizens abusing their services. Plot thickens when it turn out Morpork has no services it's actually a huge scam to implement some kind of apartheid so Ankh citizens can have no waiting for anything. Backers financing the split are revealed to be Quirm and various historic entities enemies."


Sounds like a Carrot story.  "A King Divided".

I forgot about carrot,,  would be a good end to his arc.

Also switch quirm to dwarves and that pretty much writes itself.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2016, 05:11:48 AM
OK Junkenstein, you get a point

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/07/26/who-funded-brexit/

QuoteAs Payne's rather uncharitable report suggests, Banks defines himself as an outsider, and reportedly defected from the Conservative party to UKIP after a social slight by the foreign secretary at the time, William Hague. He lives in Bristol with his Russian wife Katya, formerly named Ekaterina Paderina. In 2001 she married Eric Butler, a British seaman twice her own age, but the union ran aground after three months. The Home Office questioned the authenticity of the marriage, and might have deported her were it not for the intervention of her local MP, the Liberal Democrat Mike Hancock. In a curious footnote, MI5 (the Security Service, responsible for counter-espionage) later accused Hancock's assistant and girlfriend Katya Zatuliveter of being a Russian agent, although she was cleared in a national security court in 2011.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 30, 2016, 09:58:13 PM
 :lulz:

"The Payne report"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 31, 2016, 02:35:06 PM
It also raises the question about money in politics again. Shit like this is disturbing as the current us/UK political systems are designed to absorb as much money as you want to throw at them. The results are things like Putin playing with the US for fun because he's got more funds and rich friends than the candidates. It's only a matter of time before ukip or some other fringe gets a billionaire or two deciding to have a serious go.

When you escalate the level of funds, hilarious shit can occur. The propaganda level is drastically different between £3million and £20mil+

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 31, 2016, 06:31:33 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 31, 2016, 02:35:06 PM
It also raises the question about money in politics again. Shit like this is disturbing as the current us/UK political systems are designed to absorb as much money as you want to throw at them. The results are things like Putin playing with the US for fun because he's got more funds and rich friends than the candidates. It's only a matter of time before ukip or some other fringe gets a billionaire or two deciding to have a serious go.

When you escalate the level of funds, hilarious shit can occur. The propaganda level is drastically different between £3million and £20mil+

Here, the problem has been magnified by Citizens United, which Clinton has promised to overturn. Doing so may require a Constitutional amendment, but she's a hell of a smart one legally speaking, so I suspect she has a strategy in mind.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pergamos on July 31, 2016, 09:46:57 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 31, 2016, 06:31:33 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 31, 2016, 02:35:06 PM
It also raises the question about money in politics again. Shit like this is disturbing as the current us/UK political systems are designed to absorb as much money as you want to throw at them. The results are things like Putin playing with the US for fun because he's got more funds and rich friends than the candidates. It's only a matter of time before ukip or some other fringe gets a billionaire or two deciding to have a serious go.

When you escalate the level of funds, hilarious shit can occur. The propaganda level is drastically different between £3million and £20mil+

Here, the problem has been magnified by Citizens United, which Clinton has promised to overturn. Doing so may require a Constitutional amendment, but she's a hell of a smart one legally speaking, so I suspect she has a strategy in mind.

I think all it will take is a few supreme court appointments.  The challenge will be getting them through congress.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2016, 07:31:28 AM
News from the world of Brexit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37114418

QuoteBlack and ethnic minority people in Britain still face "entrenched" race inequality in many areas, including education and health, a watchdog warns.

A review by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which also looked at employment, housing, pay, and criminal justice, found an "alarming picture".

Black graduates earn on average 23.1% less than white ones, and more ethnic minorities are unemployed, it found.

The government said it was committed to "delivering real social reform".
'Different world'

David Isaac, the commission's chairman, said the report reveals a "very worrying combination of a post-Brexit rise in hate crime and long-term systemic unfairness and race inequality".

"We must redouble our efforts to tackle race inequality urgently or risk the divisions in our society growing and racial tensions increasing," he warned.

"If you are black or an ethnic minority in modern Britain, it can often still feel like you're living in a different world, never mind being part of a one nation society."

QuoteThe commission, which carried out an analysis of existing evidence, said:

    Black people in England are more than three times more likely to be a victim of homicide than those who are white
    Unemployment rates were "significantly higher" for ethnic minorities
    Black workers with degrees earn 23.1% less on average than white employees with the qualifications
    Ethnic minority people were more likely to live in poverty than white people
    Ethnic minorities are still "hugely under-represented" in positions of power - such as judges and police chiefs

And, although not just British:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37098643

QuoteAlmost 7,000 "Islamophobic" tweets were sent, in English, every day in July worldwide, data seen by the BBC suggests.

This compared to 2,500 in April, with peaks recorded following the Nice lorry attack and the attempted military coup in Turkey.

Forty-nine words and hashtags were used as indicators of anti-Islamic tweets, by the think tank Demos.

Twitter said it is "continuing to invest heavily" in tools to prevent abuse.

Demos analysed tweets recorded between March and July, and judged there to be 215,247 tweets - sent in English - that were "highly likely" to be anti-Islamic, derogatory or hateful.

The vast majority of tweets that could be located to Europe came from the United Kingdom, with other concentrations in the Netherlands, France and Germany.

The highest number of "Islamophobic" tweets to be sent in one day, 21,190, came on 15 July - the day after a man ploughed a lorry into crowds on the seafront in Nice, killing 85 people. Jihadist group Islamic State (IS) claimed one of its followers carried out the attack.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 19, 2016, 03:33:34 AM
Well, that's chilling.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 19, 2016, 08:49:59 AM
I tell you, this sort of stuff feels like it is reaching a breaking point.  Open Islamophobic sentiment hasn't been this popular in western discourse since the times we were proposing Crusades to deal with the problem.  Throw in whatever happens in November into the mix and...well, I don't have positive feelings about the immediate political future.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 19, 2016, 05:42:37 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2016, 08:49:59 AM
I tell you, this sort of stuff feels like it is reaching a breaking point.  Open Islamophobic sentiment hasn't been this popular in western discourse since the times we were proposing Crusades to deal with the problem.  Throw in whatever happens in November into the mix and...well, I don't have positive feelings about the immediate political future.

Yeah. It's downright frightening. I can't help wondering how it will affect academia, what with the high percentage of people of Arabic descent.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 27, 2016, 12:13:09 PM
That's probably the most retarded thing I'll read today.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 27, 2016, 02:17:50 PM
Just a reminder, this is an American, supposedly supporting state sovereignty, telling British people ITT how they should have voted

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: POFP on August 27, 2016, 02:41:37 PM
Quote from: Brother Nihil on August 27, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
Get over yourselves commie jew faggots. The rank-and-file natives of the West never invited these people in, and we aren't going to be vilified when they fail to live up to your commie jew faggot ideological fantasies. What you are doing is textbook commie jew subversion: push a narrative that somehow we (the people of the West exclusively) are obligated to allow the whole world into our lands, and if we resist, or if they fail to achieve exact equality immediately, then we are the bad guys. GO FUCK YOURSELVES COMMIE JEW FAGGOTS! We want nations for our people just like any others, and we reject your subversive narrative root and branch. YOUR KIND have brought conflict, crime, rape, race war and social destruction to our lands with your delusional ideology, not ours. MY KIND just want to live in peace among our own kind like all normal people the world over do. The problem is entirely the creation of this COMMIE JEW FAG ELITE that has its fangs in the Western opinion-making apparatus and pushes  this COMMIE FAG JEW bullshit ideology relentlessly in its COMMIE FAG JEW MEDIA AND ACADEMIA. We will oppose the subversion and reality distortion that your kind spread like a cancer wherever you go by force, because it is the only thing that you pencill-necked faggots understand. I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

:umad:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Salty on August 27, 2016, 05:52:47 PM
Quote from: Brother Nihil on August 27, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
GO FUCK YOURSELVES COMMIE JEW FAGGOTS! YOUR KIND. MY KIND. COMMIE JEW FAG ELITE COMMIE FAG JEW COMMIE FAG JEW MEDIA AND ACADEMIA. GO FUCK YOURSELVES!

[EDIT]: clarity.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 05:55:38 PM
Somebody's been working on their "screaming at the sun" game.  :lol:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2016, 06:34:55 PM
Quote from: Brother Nihil on August 27, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
Get over yourselves commie jew faggots.

Edgy.  :kingmeh:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Freeky on August 27, 2016, 07:05:21 PM
Quote from: Vivat Alty on August 27, 2016, 05:52:47 PM
Quote from: Brother Nihil on August 27, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
GO FUCK YOURSELVES COMMIE JEW FAGGOTS! YOUR KIND. MY KIND. COMMIE JEW FAG ELITE COMMIE FAG JEW COMMIE FAG JEW MEDIA AND ACADEMIA. GO FUCK YOURSELVES!

[EDIT]: clarity.

:lulz: It's less parodical than his original post, which is the funny thing.  I know it isn't, it just reads like it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 05, 2016, 10:34:51 PM
Yet another pre-Brexit promise is broken:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420

QuoteTheresa May has rejected a points-based system for controlling EU migration, one of the key promises of Leave campaigners during the referendum.

Speaking in China, the PM denied she had "gone soft" on migration and said people backed Brexit because they wanted "an element of control".

A points-based model would not let the government control arrivals, she said.

Ex-UKIP leader Nigel Farage said many people had voted Leave for the policy, backed by Boris Johnson among others.

May was kind enough to reaffirm that she would also be breaking other pre-Brexit promises as well

QuoteDuring a series of interviews, Mrs May also declined to guarantee the UK would use money saved by leaving the EU to spend another £100m a week on the NHS or cut VAT on energy bills.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 06, 2016, 01:58:08 AM
Quote from: Brother Nihil on August 27, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

Good.

I will eat your face.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2016, 02:32:59 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 06, 2016, 01:58:08 AM
Quote from: Brother Nihil on August 27, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

Good.

I will eat your face.

In one sitting?  You know what these guys are like.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 06, 2016, 10:35:39 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2016, 02:32:59 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 06, 2016, 01:58:08 AM
Quote from: Brother Nihil on August 27, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

Good.

I will eat your face.

In one sitting?  You know what these guys are like.

I didn't say I'd digest it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 06, 2016, 11:28:52 PM
The fun continues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37291830

QuoteThere is no reliable data to identify EU nationals in the UK or the length of their stay in the country, immigration minister Robert Goodwill has said.

He told MPs this lack of detail would not affect Brexit negotiations as he could not foresee a situation in which all EU nationals were told to leave.

Ministers say they cannot guarantee EU nationals living in the UK the right to stay without reciprocal assurances.

But Labour's Chuka Umunna said this stance was now just a "pretence".

Prime Minister Theresa May has said she would expect to guarantee all EU citizens currently living in the UK the right to remain after the UK leaves the EU but this will depend on other EU countries offering similar assurances to British citizens living there.

I'm also fairly sure the EU will demand collective bargaining on this issue, ie; that all EU nationals regardless of individual country of origin must be treated the same.

This is something that the EU does have, and will crop up again and again in negotiations.  For example, all other EU member states must agree to the terms the UK leaves under.  If not, then the UK will have to re-negotiate the exit.  The UK's bargaining power versus the EU is extremely weak due to this, but no-one really likes to talk about it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 07, 2016, 12:58:46 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 06, 2016, 10:35:39 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2016, 02:32:59 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on September 06, 2016, 01:58:08 AM
Quote from: Brother Nihil on August 27, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
I say again, a thousand times: GO FUCK YOURSELVES! and see you on the battlefield!

Good.

I will eat your face.

In one sitting?  You know what these guys are like.

I didn't say I'd digest it.

I particularly like the "See you on the battlefield", by which he means "the local Starbucks."

Probably optimistic.  The chances of him leaving his mother's basement are right between "Jack" and "shit".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 16, 2016, 04:55:43 PM
UKIP has picked it's new leader.  Diane James was the former home affairs spokesperson for UKIP, admirer of Putin (of course) and graduate of Thames Valley University, which is disconcerting.  Thames Valley may have improved now, I don't know for sure, but when I was applying for places, it was well known the main requirement of Thames Valley was "has a pulse, can move under own power".  It was Regent University for people too poor to sit around and smoke pot all day.  And it had been that way for decades.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 16, 2016, 09:10:58 PM
Oh gods.

Taking bet on time until first stupid racist statement. No bets over 4 days please, you know it won't take that long.

In fact, good money should be on it having already happened.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 17, 2016, 01:11:22 AM
Diane James on Romanians:

Quote"On 1 January 2014 the floodgates will open for Bulgarian and Romanian citizens [to come to Britain].

    "We are not just talking about pressure on services from immigration but also, and I have to say it, the crime associated with Romanians."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 17, 2016, 03:35:17 AM
OK, first new statement then.

Various reports that the announcement had speakers dropped and changed. Must not have had the usual brown envelope to pay the Hamilton in.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2016, 09:11:53 PM
Jeremy Corbyn remains Labour leader, actually gaining vote share on his previous victory.

Look, I'm not exactly thrilled with him as leader myself (it's not so much his policies, but his inaction and apparent inability to lead), but when the dude wins twice, as convincingly as he did and with a media as hostile as he did, it rather suggests continuing Labour's ongoing orgy of fraticide is going to go very badly.

Hopefully the party make accommodation with this and move on, though I wouldn't place any large bets on Labour doing something sensible.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2016, 01:29:49 PM
Further fun

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37465452

QuoteFormer PM David Cameron felt "badly let down" by Theresa May during the EU referendum campaign, his former director of communications has said.

Sir Craig Oliver, a former key aide to Mr Cameron, said the then home secretary failed to back the Remain campaign 13 times and was regarded by some as "an enemy agent".

He also said Boris Johnson believed the Leave campaign would be "crushed".

Neither Downing Street nor the foreign secretary has responded to the claims.

The claims are made in a book - Unleashing Demons: The Inside Story Of Brexit - serialised in the Mail on Sunday.

In it, Sir Craig says Mr Cameron briefly considered staying on as prime minister, despite losing the referendum.

However, he says he decided against it, saying he feared remaining in Downing Street would have left him "being prepared for the slaughterhouse".

QuoteSir Craig says Mrs May only came "off the fence" in favour of Remain after Mr Cameron became "visibly wound up" and gave her a dressing down over the telephone.

"Amid the murder and betrayal of the campaign, one figure stayed very still at the centre of it all - Theresa May. Now she is the last one standing," wrote Sir Craig, who was Mr Cameron's director of communications for five years.

QuoteSir Craig also claims Mr Johnson, now foreign secretary, was "genuinely in turmoil" about supporting the Leave campaign and had been "flip-flopping within a matter of hours" of declaring his intention.

The former Mayor of London became a prominent leader of the pro-Brexit campaign.

Sir Craig writes that, the day before throwing his weight behind the Leave campaign, Mr Johnson sent a text to Mr Cameron warning him that he would be campaigning for Brexit.

However, he says Mr Johnson later sent a second message suggesting he could back Remain.

Meanwhile, government appears to have woken up to the fact that if they don't trigger Article 50 at some point, we're going to be voting yet again in European elections, which is almost as farcical as the rest of this process.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2016, 01:46:54 PM
That sounds like it will be a shit or get off the pot moment, the European elections are paid for by each constituent country, I imagine the Farage types will balk at the prospect of paying for something that wont matter in a year or two.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2016, 02:04:39 PM
Yeah, but that would mean this country understands how we finance things, or how the EU works.  I don't think we can rely on either being the case.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2016, 02:57:22 PM
So it could just end up sitting in this limbo position until someone starts calling for another referendum or something?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2016, 03:07:25 PM
At this rate, I think no-one, including government, has much of a clue as to what they're doing.  And no-one except the government is even being invited to take part in the initial planning, it seems.  No cross-party committee, no House of Lords input. Certainly no Scottish, Welsh or NI input thus far.  Things that, if I were PM, I would be looking at setting up very quickly.

May's just coasting along, seemingly more concerned with grammar schools than the direction of the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2016, 03:41:37 PM
Not including Scotland and NI could easily lead to a break up of the Union, maybe that's what they want, NI is expensive to run, not sure about Scotland.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2016, 03:47:21 PM
The UK would lose out on the North Sea oilfields, at the very least, and have to relocate military bases.  I can understand, to an extent, wanting to wash our hands of NI, but losing Scotland on purpose would be crazy.

Then again, Boris Johnson...

Also no word on if London is going to get any representation.  Sadiq Khan has argued for it, no doubt to bolster his eventual bid for Labour leadership, but also on the basis that so many London residents and businesses will be affected that again, it would be crazy not to.

I mean, I'm assuming something is going on, behind closed doors, but they're pretty closed right now, and there's no telling when they may even invite other stakeholders.  If they do at all.  If they don't...then yeah, this will be a fully blown constitutional crisis.  Probably more than one.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 02, 2016, 02:28:49 PM
May has announced Article 50 will be triggered by the end of March 2017.

The European Communities Act 1972 will be repealed, while existing EU laws will be enshrined into a "Great Repeal Bill" to be individually repealed or not later, as Parliament sees fit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 02, 2016, 04:46:33 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 02, 2016, 02:28:49 PM
May has announced Article 50 will be triggered by the end of March 2017.

The European Communities Act 1972 will be repealed, while existing EU laws will be enshrined into a "Great Repeal Bill" to be individually repealed or not later, as Parliament sees fit.

Yeah... I just never thought this was going to happen, but there you go. I looked at the pound vs dollar charts for a bit when you posted elsewhere. You can see the day of the vote clearly on a form of chart that measures a sort of "magnitude" of trade volume overall up or down. There's a ridiculous spike marking the drop. Looks almost like a tectonic shift, but in trillions of units of currency.

Guess this is the new state of things.  :|
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 11:57:36 AM
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 03:28:47 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 11:57:36 AM
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.

How much for the whole Giza complex and the "Cleopatra's Needle" in Central London?
Do you accept dodgy bearer bonds or are you ok with Pounds Sterling?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on October 03, 2016, 03:52:30 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 03:28:47 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 11:57:36 AM
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.

How much for the whole Giza complex and the "Cleopatra's Needle" in Central London?
Do you accept dodgy bearer bonds or are you ok with Pounds Sterling?

All future sales of public property will be conducted in zloty.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 03, 2016, 06:09:42 PM
Cain for President of England.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 06:35:54 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 03, 2016, 06:09:42 PM
Cain for President of England.

Seconded. Motion to appoint Cain as President of England, and only England, will now hear testimony from the floor before the Oligarchy makes an arbitrary decision.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 03, 2016, 07:21:11 PM
pfff, In for a penny in for a pound: Cain for Lord Protector
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on October 03, 2016, 08:49:30 PM
Patrician
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 09:05:53 PM
Quote from: Xaz on October 03, 2016, 08:49:30 PM
Patrician

Worth noting that before vetinari there was a certain snapcase who made things so bad that he was the reasonable option.

For the national interest I volunteer to lead the most corrupt and depraved government you've ever seen.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: Xaz on October 03, 2016, 03:52:30 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 03:28:47 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 11:57:36 AM
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.

How much for the whole Giza complex and the "Cleopatra's Needle" in Central London?
Do you accept dodgy bearer bonds or are you ok with Pounds Sterling?

All future sales of public property will be conducted in zloty.

The only currency currently being accepted is gold teeth.

It's a trick sale anyway as 90%+ of UK public buildings are held offshore. The UK has owned nothing for years and this is unlikely to change.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 11:57:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 09:09:03 PM
Quote from: Xaz on October 03, 2016, 03:52:30 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on October 03, 2016, 03:28:47 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 11:57:36 AM
Pound drops again after the announcement.

Hands up those who are surprised, I have national monuments for sale.

How much for the whole Giza complex and the "Cleopatra's Needle" in Central London?
Do you accept dodgy bearer bonds or are you ok with Pounds Sterling?

All future sales of public property will be conducted in zloty.

The only currency currently being accepted is gold teeth.

It's a trick sale anyway as 90%+ of UK public buildings are held offshore. The UK has owned nothing for years and this is unlikely to change.

If you can get me the rocks, I'll find a way to get you da teef!
We going by weight or piece count?

Somehow I'm entirely unsurprised about the ownership thing. I wonder exactly how much is in Irish accounts... just be an interesting historical curio to me is all.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 04, 2016, 02:34:23 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 09:09:03 PM


The only currency currently being accepted is gold teeth.



It's too bad Chef Diesel is dead.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 04, 2016, 05:01:09 AM
I don't want to run the UK.  Running the UK right now is being being elected as the guy to clean up after the party is over.

Fuck that.  This country peed on the rug, and now it's going to get its nose rubbed into it.  Again, and again, and again.  Then maybe it will learn its lesson.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 04, 2016, 05:19:04 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 04, 2016, 05:01:09 AM
I don't want to run the UK.  Running the UK right now is being being elected as the guy to clean up after the party is over.

Fuck that.  This country peed on the rug, and now it's going to get its nose rubbed into it.  Again, and again, and again.  Then maybe it will learn its lesson.

All I see here is a noble reluctance to power absolute and an iron understanding of the NECESSARY. Maybe you could just try it for a few days and, you know... get all Duterte or something. Maybe get them to all settle down and stop shouting in Parliament so much with a ready kennel of bio-engineered ex-soviet attack dogs?

But I understand, it's a shit deal nobody should be forced into.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 04, 2016, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 04, 2016, 02:34:23 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 03, 2016, 09:09:03 PM


The only currency currently being accepted is gold teeth.



It's too bad Chef Diesel is dead.

His eyes were just too Fucked up for this world.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 05, 2016, 02:24:45 PM
Theresa May is declaring that the Tories will seize the centre-ground of politics once again.

Apparently, the centre-ground consists of expelling foreign-born doctors (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/jeremy-hunt-accused-devaluing-contribution-foreign-doctors-to-uk) and making companies disclose how many non-British workers they employ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561035).

Meanwhile, Nigel Farage is once again the leader of UKIP.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 05, 2016, 02:36:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 05, 2016, 02:24:45 PM

Meanwhile, Nigel Farage is once again the leader of UKIP.


:spittake: you're shitting me!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 05, 2016, 02:51:27 PM
No, it's stupid enough to be UK politics news.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561065
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 05, 2016, 02:58:10 PM
QuoteAsked about speculation that Welsh UKIP leader Neil Hamilton could be installed as interim leader by the party's national executive committee, Mr Farage said: "Really? Well we'll have to see about that won't we.
"I do not see any prospect of that horror story coming to pass," he said, adding that Mr Hamilton "doesn't do our public image a whole host of good".

Okay, I'm back into politics again, this is comedy gold :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 05, 2016, 04:47:10 PM
"When asked for a comment, Hamilton coughed and put his hand out."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 06, 2016, 11:33:04 AM
I'm wondering if there's a human being on earth who could make UKIP's public image look any worse. Suggestions on a postcard. All I got is the exhumed, rotting corpse of Jimmy Saville
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2016, 11:38:41 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 06, 2016, 11:33:04 AM
I'm wondering if there's a human being on earth who could make UKIP's public image look any worse. Suggestions on a postcard. All I got is the exhumed, rotting corpse of Jimmy Saville

Amber "name and shame corporations who hire foreigners" Rudd?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 06, 2016, 12:16:43 PM
Was bad enough when "New Labour"  made Labour and the Tories exactly the same thing. Now we're blurring the lines between the labtories and the f'kin national front. At which point does the same fucking difference qualify as totalitarian?  :argh!:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2016, 12:39:56 PM
Humanitarian agencies did criticise Russia for having a sham political system "that did not offer or give sufficient air time to differing views."  Sounds familiar...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 06, 2016, 03:33:34 PM
I would argue that Jimmy Savilles rotting corpse would come out with less comments that could cause diplomatic incidents, and would be taken more seriously in debates then Farage.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 06, 2016, 05:15:40 PM
Savile's rotting corpse is probably a good metaphor for half of parliament in one way or another. Or at least the setup for a poor joke.

"What's the difference between UK governments and Savile's rotting corpse?"

"One's foul, filled with corruption and did terrible things to the defenceless for decades, the other is a rotting corpse".

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2016, 06:38:19 PM
Lets not forget, the public get the government they ask for

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/06/public-backs-plans-make-companies-say-how-many-for/

QuoteBy more than two to one the public support government proposals to make businesses publish how many foreign workers they employ

At the Conservative party conference this week, Home Secretary Amber Rudd announced plans to make firms publish what proportion of their workforce is non-British in a bid to encourage them to hire more British nationals. Although derided by many media commentators, new YouGov research finds that the policy is very popular across most of society.

Overall, 59% of people say they either strongly or somewhat support the proposals – more than double the 26% who somewhat or strongly oppose them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on October 07, 2016, 02:01:42 AM
And apparently the new leader of UKIP will be decided by the best of three falls or a knockout
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37572377

QuoteUKIP leadership hopeful Steven Woolfe says he is recovering in hospital after a reported fight at a meeting of the party's MEPs.
The party released a statement from Mr Woolfe from his Strasbourg hospital bed saying he was sitting up having undergone a precautionary brain scan.
UKIP sources said "punches were exchanged" during the row at a party meeting and Mr Woolfe banged his head.
He was taken to hospital two hours later after collapsing, sources said.
UKIP sources said "a rumbustious argument" had taken place at the MEPs' meeting at the European Parliament over whether Mr Woolfe had been talking to the Conservative Party.

QuoteFarage: UKIP Steven Woolfe row "not very grown-up"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 07, 2016, 05:10:38 AM
Quote from: MMIX on October 07, 2016, 02:01:42 AM
And apparently the new leader of UKIP will be decided by the best of three falls or a knockout
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37572377

QuoteUKIP leadership hopeful Steven Woolfe says he is recovering in hospital after a reported fight at a meeting of the party's MEPs.
The party released a statement from Mr Woolfe from his Strasbourg hospital bed saying he was sitting up having undergone a precautionary brain scan.
UKIP sources said "punches were exchanged" during the row at a party meeting and Mr Woolfe banged his head.
He was taken to hospital two hours later after collapsing, sources said.
UKIP sources said "a rumbustious argument" had taken place at the MEPs' meeting at the European Parliament over whether Mr Woolfe had been talking to the Conservative Party.

QuoteFarage: UKIP Steven Woolfe row "not very grown-up"

This seems kinda familiar.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 11:37:41 AM
Quote"In the UK at the moment you've got a one-party state. When you put it all together, there's something seriously wrong.
"I don't know if there's a role for me... There's a limit to what I want to say about my own position at this moment. All I can say is that this is where politics is at. Do I feel strongly about it? Yes, I do. Am I very motivated by that? Yes.
"Where do I go from here? What exactly do I do? That's an open question."
He added: "There's been a huge reaction against the politics I represent. But I think it's too soon to say the centre has been defeated. Ultimately I don't think it will. I think it will succeed again.

Just in case anyone was confused about how shit things are, Blair's threatening a comeback.

I'm amazed he can even show his face after Chilcot but apparently working for dictators removes any vestiges of shame.

Seriously, if this fucker turns up again then we may just have to concede that Guy Fawkes had the right idea, he was just off with the timing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 07, 2016, 11:45:18 AM
Presumably said with a straight face and no hint of irony. Considering he's the man responsible for turning us into a one party state, you have to hand it to him.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2016, 01:00:07 PM
Sad thing is, if there was an election tomorrow, Blair would probably do better than the current government or Labour.  Both in terms of getting votes and actually being in power.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 07, 2016, 04:14:50 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 11:37:41 AM
Quote"In the UK at the moment you've got a one-party state. When you put it all together, there's something seriously wrong.
"I don't know if there's a role for me... There's a limit to what I want to say about my own position at this moment. All I can say is that this is where politics is at. Do I feel strongly about it? Yes, I do. Am I very motivated by that? Yes.
"Where do I go from here? What exactly do I do? That's an open question."
He added: "There's been a huge reaction against the politics I represent. But I think it's too soon to say the centre has been defeated. Ultimately I don't think it will. I think it will succeed again.

Just in case anyone was confused about how shit things are, Blair's threatening a comeback.

I'm amazed he can even show his face after Chilcot but apparently working for dictators removes any vestiges of shame.

Seriously, if this fucker turns up again then we may just have to concede that Guy Fawkes had the right idea, he was just off with the timing.

November is coming...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 04:28:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 07, 2016, 01:00:07 PM
Sad thing is, if there was an election tomorrow, Blair would probably do better than the current government or Labour.  Both in terms of getting votes and actually being in power.

That's not sad, it's fucking tragic.

Seriously, if this place turns into Blair #2 - You-didn't-learn-your-lesson-the-first-three-fucking-times-boogaloo then I'm moving to the first country that will have me. I'm not going to stick around for the 4th time as I'm probably going to jail in the first year of it.


In next week's news, Thatcher's rotting corpse rises from the grave to discuss Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2016, 04:31:20 PM
Meanwhile

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/lse-brexit-non-uk-experts-foreign-academics

QuoteLeading foreign academics acting as expert advisers to the UK government have been told they will not be asked to contribute to any government analysis and reports on Brexit because they are not British nationals.

"It is utterly baffling that the government is turning down expert, independent advice on Brexit simply because someone is from another country," said Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrats' EU spokesman.

"This is yet more evidence of the Conservatives' alarming embrace of petty chauvinism over rational policymaking."

Sara Hagemann, an assistant professor at the London School of Economics who specialises in EU policymaking processes, EU treaty matters, the role of national parliaments and the consequences of EU enlargements, said she had been told her services would not be required.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on October 07, 2016, 04:33:43 PM
Is this the governmental version of sticking your fingers in your ears and going:
LALALALA

?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 04:43:11 PM
As we saw during the campaign, Experts are evil idiots who can't be trusted as they're all full of that sweet EU money which causes compulsive lies.

It's quite horrible to see the echo chamber being constructed though. The lies and nonsense that they'll come out with over the next months by dismissing anyone moderate (or moderately sane) will no doubt make this an even more horrible place to live.


This may be part of the overall immigration strategy. Give the UK a new reputation as racist xenophobes who are as likely to stab you as queue patiently may deter a few people.   

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 04:52:02 PM
Quote from: Xaz on October 07, 2016, 04:33:43 PM
Is this the governmental version of sticking your fingers in your ears and going:
LALALALA

?

It's closer to "Pissing on an electric fence".

The reports have already been made, as has any analysis. Other people (by which we mean foreign untrustworthy people, because they're not from round here, ergo potential members of ISIS) may contradict said reports or disagree with any analysis. Which is unacceptable, obviously.

I highly doubt that May is in this for the long haul, I'm expecting that she puts just enough wheels in motion to keep her own party and UKIP idiots happy and then retires at the next election on a PM's pension. This is a shitshow waiting to start with no-one able to give any idea of an end, or even what the "end" may actually look like.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 06:47:44 PM
Quote from: MMIX on October 07, 2016, 02:01:42 AM
And apparently the new leader of UKIP will be decided by the best of three falls or a knockout
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37572377

QuoteUKIP leadership hopeful Steven Woolfe says he is recovering in hospital after a reported fight at a meeting of the party's MEPs.
The party released a statement from Mr Woolfe from his Strasbourg hospital bed saying he was sitting up having undergone a precautionary brain scan.
UKIP sources said "punches were exchanged" during the row at a party meeting and Mr Woolfe banged his head.
He was taken to hospital two hours later after collapsing, sources said.
UKIP sources said "a rumbustious argument" had taken place at the MEPs' meeting at the European Parliament over whether Mr Woolfe had been talking to the Conservative Party.

BREAKING NEWS UPDATE:

QuoteThe UKIP MEP involved in an altercation with Steven Woolfe has said he "categorically did not" throw a punch at his colleague.
Mike Hookem acknowledged he and his colleague had a "scuffle" in the European Parliament but insisted that he did not hit him.

....There have been varying descriptions of what happened during what UKIP called an "altercation" and Mr Hookem told BBC Radio Humberside only he and Mr Woolfe knew precisely what went on.

...He said Mr Woolfe had objected to remarks which he made. "He then stood up in front of everybody and said 'if it's that, let's take it outside of the room', I think his words were 'mano a mano'."
"When I walked in he approached me to attack me. He came at me, I defended myself. There were no punches thrown, there was no face slapping, there were no digs, there was nothing," he said.
"It's (what) people in Hull would term 'handbags at dawn'. A bit of a scuffle."

..."I didn't push him. He fell back into that room onto an MEP that was stood just inside that room.

...UKIP donor Arron Banks, an influential figure in the party and ally of Nigel Farage - who is interim leader after Ms James' exit - has expressed his continued support for Mr Woolfe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37587814

So the book is formally open on what's actually occured. Current favourites are "Tweaked Nipple","boot to the bollocks" and "Pretended to faint/fit for attention and sympathy". The second has my money because:
A- It's UKIP's style
B-Something caused the guy to drop
C-Neither side want the police involved so it's going to be hilarious. 

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 06:56:15 PM
In economy news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37587085

QuoteThe pound was pummelled in the currency markets in Friday Asian trading, with traders blaming concerns over Brexit and a flash crash that hit the market.
The pound fell 6% to $1.1841, the biggest move since the Brexit vote.
Sterling later recovered some of those losses but remained volatile.
Analysts think a news report could have triggered automated trading systems to sell the pound heavily in a short space of time.

...."The big issue for the pound right now is that it has become detached from the economic fundamentals and politics have become king. This is where things will get dangerous for the currency going forward," said Kathleen Brooks, research director at City Index.
"Theresa May's hard-line on Brexit negotiations and her insistence that negotiations will take place in private have only increased uncertainty for the market, with traders left combing news websites for the latest headlines to try and gauge for themselves the state of play between the UK and the EU," she added.

...Analysts at HSBC are forecasting that the pound could fall to $1.10 and could be worth just one euro by the end of next year.

"The argument which is still presented to us - that the UK and EU will resolve their difference and come to an amicable deal - appears a little surreal," said David Bloom, head of foreign exchange research at HSBC.
"It is becoming clear that many European countries will come to the negotiation table looking for political damage limitation rather than economic damage limitation. A lose-lose situation is the inevitable outcome

What, did you expect positive news?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2016, 07:10:49 PM
The guy who hit Woolfe is called HOOKEM.  Does there even need to be an investigation?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 07, 2016, 08:53:37 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 06:56:15 PM
In economy news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37587085

QuoteThe pound was pummelled in the currency markets in Friday Asian trading, with traders blaming concerns over Brexit and a flash crash that hit the market.
The pound fell 6% to $1.1841, the biggest move since the Brexit vote.
Sterling later recovered some of those losses but remained volatile.
Analysts think a news report could have triggered automated trading systems to sell the pound heavily in a short space of time.

...."The big issue for the pound right now is that it has become detached from the economic fundamentals and politics have become king. This is where things will get dangerous for the currency going forward," said Kathleen Brooks, research director at City Index.
"Theresa May's hard-line on Brexit negotiations and her insistence that negotiations will take place in private have only increased uncertainty for the market, with traders left combing news websites for the latest headlines to try and gauge for themselves the state of play between the UK and the EU," she added.

...Analysts at HSBC are forecasting that the pound could fall to $1.10 and could be worth just one euro by the end of next year.

"The argument which is still presented to us - that the UK and EU will resolve their difference and come to an amicable deal - appears a little surreal," said David Bloom, head of foreign exchange research at HSBC.
"It is becoming clear that many European countries will come to the negotiation table looking for political damage limitation rather than economic damage limitation. A lose-lose situation is the inevitable outcome

What, did you expect positive news?

The worse that they behave the more money that all of the existing and new short positions and cats selling currency option contracts make. The actors themselves may not fully understand how it all works, but the checks keep rolling in and their blindly trusted experts assure them they're on the "winning" team. And who could really say otherwise? Buckets of bloody cash speak for themselves.

You are watching a Punch & Judy show while the cr0wn quietly allows the economy to get messily gutted backstage. Good thing economies can't scream and the experts most able to see it would largely just prefer to cash in on the matter.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 09:55:42 PM
The second part of the joke is that this apparently may have been caused by trading algorithms that scan for good/bad brexit and pound related news. So after the weekend's papers with headlines like "ARGH!" it would seem reasonable to assume that the cycle will repeat and get worse.

Fun times off the starboard bow. 

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 07, 2016, 10:06:17 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 09:55:42 PM
The second part of the joke is that this apparently may have been caused by trading algorithms that scan for good/bad brexit and pound related news. So after the weekend's papers with headlines like "ARGH!" it would seem reasonable to assume that the cycle will repeat and get worse.

Fun times off the starboard bow.

Robots AND Pirates for Halloween! :)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 07, 2016, 11:37:47 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 07, 2016, 09:55:42 PM
The second part of the joke is that this apparently may have been caused by trading algorithms that scan for good/bad brexit and pound related news. So after the weekend's papers with headlines like "ARGH!" it would seem reasonable to assume that the cycle will repeat and get worse.

Fun times off the starboard bow.

Yup, because that's all they have to go on.  Government's not telling anyone anything, and the EU's not revealing it's hand until Article 50 is triggered either.

Right now everyone's predicting the negotiations will be a lose-lose situation between the two parties, and they're probably right.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 08, 2016, 02:46:22 AM
Incidentally, both the post-Brexit drop and "pound flash crash" are severe enough to be considered currency crashes, if they persist until next June, as seems likely (loss of over 15% of currency value in a year).

Here's your primer on what happens next: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_crisis

(I actually think, despite being Goldman Sachs, Carney is a fairly adept leader for the Bank of England, cautious but willing to take pre-emptive action when required.  This may not be enough, but it could offset the worst of it).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 08, 2016, 03:34:15 AM
If he's still around at that stage it will be interesting to see what he tries. The way things are at the moment it's fairly possible he may quit/resign/other before the day of article 50. Will also be worth seeing if end of March date holds as that will indicate a lot and cause a shitstorm politically and financially either way.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2016, 03:09:41 AM
May's stupid enough to do it.

A vote on the terms of our EU exit is, apparently, not on the cards. Not a referendum, and not even a Parliamentary vote. So an undemocratically elected government is going to push forward an undemocratic terms of exit based on a 4% referendum mandate and votes cast in 2015. 

Given an Act of Parliament may be required to leave the EU, this could very well trigger (another) constitutional crisis.  May is centralising control for ll of Brexit in the Cabinet - this probably means no say for Scotland, NI, Wales or London either.  There's no stomach for "hard Brexit" in Parliament, and indeed it's contentious even within the Tory Party (and runs directly counter to their 2015 manifesto).

Parliament is getting agitated by May's lack of due respect.

And by the way: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/11/hard-brexit-treasury-66bn-eu-single-market

QuoteTreasury coffers may take a £66bn annual hit if Britain goes for a hard Brexit, cabinet ministers have been warned.

Leaked government papers suggest that leaving the single market and switching to World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules would cause GDP to fall by up to 9.5% compared with staying in the EU.

The draft cabinet committee paper seen by the Times is based on forecasts from the controversial study into the predicted impact of quitting the EU published by George Osborne in April during the referendum campaign. Although the then chancellor faced widespread criticism over the report, the Treasury stands by its calculations, according to the Times.

The documents says: "The Treasury estimates that UK GDP would be between 5.4% and 9.5% of GDP lower after 15 years if we left the EU with no successor arrangement, with a central estimate of 7.5%.

"The net impact on public sector receipts – assuming no contributions to the EU and current receipts from the EU are replicated in full – would be a loss of between £38bn and £66bn per year after 15 years, driven by the smaller size of the economy."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 11, 2016, 08:54:01 AM
The north issue is getting really ugly, no one here wants a border, north or south. There's talk of repealing the convention on human rights, which results in a nullification of the good Friday agreement, that and May's ugly comments about soldiers no longer being harassed (when they were performing vengeance killings on innocent people in the North).

The north not having suffered enough, it now looks like Fianna Fáil are looking to establish a party in the north. This is the corrupt auction politics party that bravely led us into the crash, the illegal property deals, the zero pay for corporations.

Sinn Féin is the already established republican party up there, but widely associated with the IRA and the troubles, however since the Good Friday agreement, the power sharing, an uncomfortable peace has been hard won on both sides, with concessions on each side; SF take seats in government but don't take up the ones they are entitled to in Parliament over the water.
FF are not as classy a bunch, don't expect violence from them, but they will take up their seats in parliament.
If they do that, England will be begging for a breakup of the Union.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2016, 10:11:56 AM
Unfortunately, Tories know fuck all about Northern Ireland.  No-one votes for them there, therefore they don't care.  Just like Scotland.  Anywhere outside of the Home Countries is foreign territory, suspicious and awful.  On the plus side, I'm hoping this means NI can come to its own arrangements with RoI, but legally that may not stick.

In other news, remember that £450 million a week that will go into the NHS?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37627308

QuoteWhitehall officials believe the UK may need to make big payments to the EU to secure preferential trading terms after Brexit, BBC Newsnight has learned.

During the EU referendum, Vote Leave claimed leaving the EU could save the UK £350m a week in contributions.

But an unnamed cabinet minister has told Newsnight that the UK may end up "paying quite a lot" of that money to secure access to the single market.

The government said it would not give a "running commentary" on negotiations.

The UK's contributions to the EU became one of the most contentious issues in the EU referendum campaign after Vote Leave pledged to repatriate £350m a week - its estimate of the UK's gross weekly contributions to the EU.

This is reduced by subsidies paid to the UK and by the UK budget rebate.

But a leading light in the Brexit campaign said they now expected the UK could still end up paying as much as £5bn a year into EU funds, in return for access to the single market.

This is roughly half of what the UK would have expected to contribute to the EU - estimated by the Office for Budget Responsibility to average around £9.6bn a year from 2015.

Ed Mililibands's coalition of plucky rebels is still picking away at Brexit negotiations (Miliband is the driving force behind the cross-Parliamentary calls for a vote on the terms of Brexit, he's no fool.  Can't eat a bacon sandwich, but no fool).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37622928

QuoteLabour has renewed pressure on ministers to set out their Brexit strategy to MPs before formal negotiations begin.

Shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry said Labour would stage a Commons vote on Wednesday on a motion calling for "proper scrutiny".

Ahead of the debate, it asked Brexit Minister David Davis 170 questions, including on trade and migration.

The Conservatives said there would be "no running commentary" on their plans.

The government has faced calls to set out more detail on what it wants Brexit to look like, with little known so far about its plans for migration and trade with the EU.

That's one question for every day until the end of March, btw.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 12, 2016, 01:18:00 PM
I assume we will have around 0 answers by the end of march, if that date even holds.

How long can this go on before you have to admit you have no real plan? I'm guessing around a year before "health reasons" or "family commitments" cause the key people involved to run like fuck and leave the next set holding the bag.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2016, 02:18:07 PM
I don't know...I know Miliband wasn't always the best leader of the party, but he seems to be building up quite a bit of momentum on the Tory backbenches with this, even among Brexit supporters.  Eventually someone will have to give Parliament an answer.  I can only assume they're going easy on May because the new government thing.

Come the new year, I think we'll see serious pushback.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 12, 2016, 04:12:29 PM
By the new year, they'll be pushing themselves back. It's the same with any project when the deadline is 6+ months out. The first month is a party. So's the second. After that you're either having 4 more and turning in something shitty or rushing to get a decent job done in 2/3rds of the time that you should have. The "no ongoing commentary" line backs up the first. Who would tell people they're just tossing it off on an ongoing basis? And surely there's little doubt that whatever they decide to show, be that in march or before (possibly later. Tories....) is undoubtedly going to be quite shitty for any and all concerned.

It also gives them until that date to let others keep making the case against it. "Do a shitty job" might be the plan to try and get out of the whole mess. If the people wanting it can't preform, how and who else do you get to do it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 12, 2016, 04:40:13 PM
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2016/10/facts-of-life-and-death.html

QuoteThe UK is not self-sufficient in food. The UK imports roughly 40% of the total food consumed, and the proportion is rising. Nor is it obvious that we can produce more food: to get close to self-sufficiency from 1939-45 required a world war, mobilization, and the conversion of all private gardens into kitchen gardens, along with rationing, and the UK population has grown by roughly 25% since then. While modern technology-intensive agricultural techniques can improve productivity, this is capital intensive, and the one thing a Post-hard Brexit Britain with a crashed currency and a financial sector fleeing to the continent is going to be short of is capital. Also, it takes years to roll out that sort of infrastructure upgrade, even if the will is there.

Food bank use is at record levels and hunger is a desperate concern for low-income (including low-earning employed) families. And the currency we buy our food imports with just crashed 10% this week, and 25% over the past four months.

If a Hard Brexit happens, then Sterling will almost certainly dip below Dollar parity for the first time in history. Imported foods will cost 40% more in real terms than they did in 2015. And there will be additional 20% tarrifs levelled on top.

I'm calling Hard Brexit a road to mass starvation and famine-grade deaths on a scale not seen in the UK since the Hungry Forties (that's the 1840s, not the 1940s).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 12, 2016, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 12, 2016, 04:40:13 PM
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2016/10/facts-of-life-and-death.html

QuoteThe UK is not self-sufficient in food. The UK imports roughly 40% of the total food consumed, and the proportion is rising. Nor is it obvious that we can produce more food: to get close to self-sufficiency from 1939-45 required a world war, mobilization, and the conversion of all private gardens into kitchen gardens, along with rationing, and the UK population has grown by roughly 25% since then. While modern technology-intensive agricultural techniques can improve productivity, this is capital intensive, and the one thing a Post-hard Brexit Britain with a crashed currency and a financial sector fleeing to the continent is going to be short of is capital. Also, it takes years to roll out that sort of infrastructure upgrade, even if the will is there.

Food bank use is at record levels and hunger is a desperate concern for low-income (including low-earning employed) families. And the currency we buy our food imports with just crashed 10% this week, and 25% over the past four months.

If a Hard Brexit happens, then Sterling will almost certainly dip below Dollar parity for the first time in history. Imported foods will cost 40% more in real terms than they did in 2015. And there will be additional 20% tarrifs levelled on top.

I'm calling Hard Brexit a road to mass starvation and famine-grade deaths on a scale not seen in the UK since the Hungry Forties (that's the 1840s, not the 1940s).

:kingmeh: Watch them proceed anyway. There's money to be made in such "ultimate austerity". What's a few deaths by starvation compared to a vast private profit on the economic woe of millions?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/7drHiqr.gif)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338

QuoteA consultation gets under way next week on plans for a second Scottish independence referendum, the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed.

She told the party's Glasgow conference that an Independence Referendum Bill would be published next week.

It marks the first step to holding a second vote.

The first referendum, which took place on 18 September, 2014, resulted in 55% of voters saying "no" to Scottish independence.

QuoteMs Sturgeon told delegates that Scotland had the right to seek something better if there were prospects of an unstable future as part of the UK.

She said: "I am determined that Scotland will have the ability to reconsider the question of independence and to do so before the UK leaves the EU - if that is necessary to protect our country's interests.

"So, I can confirm today that the Independence Referendum Bill will be published for consultation next week."

On 24 June, the day after the UK voted to leave the EU, Ms Sturgeon said a second independence referendum was "highly likely".

Those who voted in Scotland backed remaining in Europe by 62% to 38% while the UK as a whole backed leave, by a margin of 52% to 48%.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on October 13, 2016, 03:07:18 PM
I was very much in favour of Scotland staying part of the Union but if I was Scots then I would be now be looking to get the hell out asap. The Scots were lied to, they were told that staying in the Union was the best and possibly only way for Scotland to stay in the EU. The Union has rapidly shown itself to be toxic to Scotland's European aspirations and I don't see why we should all suffer they should try and stay in Europe if it is possible. I just wish there was as simple a solution for Ireland, whose unique position was obviously not taken seriously by the flag waving, racist,  mouth breathers who "wanted their country back". As for Wales, well what can you say? I look around me filled with horror and disgust that we voted so stupidly against our own best interests. I live in rural West Wales where the economy is currently strongly underpinned by European structural funding http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/mapped-where-in-the-uk-receives-most-eu-funding-and-how-does-thi/
I try not to go out much because it is corrosive to the soul to look at your fellow citizens with murderous disgust knowing that over half of the people you meet are too stupid to vote and are wasting your precious oxygen.
[/i mini-rant!]
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 13, 2016, 05:23:05 PM
Quote from: MMIX on October 13, 2016, 03:07:18 PM
I was very much in favour of Scotland staying part of the Union but if I was Scots then I would be now be looking to get the hell out asap.

I can't argue with that.  I'd be looking for the door myself.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 13, 2016, 06:08:44 PM
Reading this thread reminded me to apply for jobs in Australia.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on October 13, 2016, 06:18:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2016, 06:08:44 PM
Reading this thread reminded me to apply for jobs in Australia.

I am considering Irish citizenship. If only so I can pass it to my son
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 14, 2016, 12:36:02 AM
Quote from: MMIX on October 13, 2016, 06:18:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2016, 06:08:44 PM
Reading this thread reminded me to apply for jobs in Australia.

I am considering Irish citizenship. If only so I can pass it to my son
Apart from the cultural aspect it gives him access to work in any EU country and stay in them indefinitely. Not trying to be nationalistic about Ireland, but if the option is available I would strongly recommend it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on October 14, 2016, 12:49:34 AM
Quote from: Faust on October 14, 2016, 12:36:02 AM
Quote from: MMIX on October 13, 2016, 06:18:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2016, 06:08:44 PM
Reading this thread reminded me to apply for jobs in Australia.

I am considering Irish citizenship. If only so I can pass it to my son
Apart from the cultural aspect it gives him access to work in any EU country and stay in them indefinitely. Not trying to be nationalistic about Ireland, but if the option is available I would strongly recommend it.

Plus it would mean I could stop having to be defined as English; something I find increasingly distasteful as I get older
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2016, 01:03:38 AM
I'd say go for it.  If I had an EU citizenship option, I'd take it in a heartbeat.  Maybe I'll have to just suck it up and find a nice French/German/Dutch/Swedish/Spanish/Portuguese etc girl to marry...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 14, 2016, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 13, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/7drHiqr.gif)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338

QuoteA consultation gets under way next week on plans for a second Scottish independence referendum, the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed.

She told the party's Glasgow conference that an Independence Referendum Bill would be published next week.

It marks the first step to holding a second vote.

The first referendum, which took place on 18 September, 2014, resulted in 55% of voters saying "no" to Scottish independence.

QuoteMs Sturgeon told delegates that Scotland had the right to seek something better if there were prospects of an unstable future as part of the UK.

She said: "I am determined that Scotland will have the ability to reconsider the question of independence and to do so before the UK leaves the EU - if that is necessary to protect our country's interests.

"So, I can confirm today that the Independence Referendum Bill will be published for consultation next week."

On 24 June, the day after the UK voted to leave the EU, Ms Sturgeon said a second independence referendum was "highly likely".

Those who voted in Scotland backed remaining in Europe by 62% to 38% while the UK as a whole backed leave, by a margin of 52% to 48%.

Won't happen. There's no limit to the retardedness of my countrymen. The english could probably pull the same bullshit they did last time - more powers and a secure place in europe and we'd still vote to stay. Right now I'm prepared to get behind anybody advocating genocide of the scots.  :argh!:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 18, 2016, 12:48:19 PM
Bless UKIP. They're not as big as other parties (1 MP, kinda) or as sane (look at them) but they do make an exceptional effort at getting their own share of headlines. The current is the guy who was "struck by a blow to the head" (he was headbutted it seems) has quit and announced the party to be in a death spiral of their own devising.

Various people being accused of trying to mitigate/prevent brexit and occasional coverage of the court case disputing may's ability to even do it without parliamentary consent. The overall result is that a complicated thing is getting even more so and any chance for a positive result for anyone looks increasingly unlikely.

As for alternative citizenship, grab the chance if it's around. Having the option can only be beneficial.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 21, 2016, 06:17:09 PM
The current state of affairs in the UK: Gary Lineker is coming under fire for saying some of the treatment of child refugees (whom one MP demanded be age verified by dental checks) was "hideously racist". 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on October 21, 2016, 06:44:52 PM
To be clear: he's coming under fire, and not the hideously racist treatment?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 21, 2016, 08:51:57 PM
Yes. He isn't racist enough for the sun. Typical Murdoch hatchet job, "sources say" the usual crap.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 21, 2016, 09:07:11 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 21, 2016, 06:44:52 PM
To be clear: he's coming under fire, and not the hideously racist treatment?

We're really got to stop being surprised by this sort of shit.  It isn't new and it isn't isolated.

This is not, you will notice, the same as saying "put up with it". 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 23, 2016, 03:39:37 AM
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/80062/ex-coronation-street-actress-tracy-brabin-heckled

QuoteFar-right supporters heckled former soap star Tracy Brabin as she won the Westminster seat vacated by the killing of Labour MP Jo Cox.

QuoteAs a mark of respect to Ms Cox - who was killed outside a library in the constituency as she prepared to carry out an advice surgery - no mainstream parties stood candidates in the by-election.

Ms Brabin was repeatedly shouted down by supporters of her opponents after the result was announced in the early hours of the morning.

She received 17,506, well ahead of Therese Hirst of the English Democrats, who polled just 969 votes. David Furness of the BNP came third with 548, while independent candidate Garry Kitchin was fourth with 517.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 23, 2016, 03:50:02 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/22/leading-banks-set-to-pull-out-of-brexit-uk

QuoteBritain's biggest banks are preparing to relocate out of the UK in the first few months of 2017 amid growing fears over the impending Brexit negotiations, while smaller banks are making plans to get out before Christmas.

The dramatic claim is made in the Observer by the chief executive of the British Bankers' Association, Anthony Browne, who warns "the public and political debate at the moment is taking us in the wrong direction".

A source close to Brexit secretary David Davis said he and the chancellor Philip Hammond had last week sought to offer reassurance that they were determined to secure the status of the City of London.

However, the government's stated intention to take control of the freedom of movement into the UK is widely recognised among officials to be a hammer blow to any chance of retaining the present terms of trade for banks, particularly given the bellicose rhetoric of major politicians on the continent.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/oct/21/polish-woman-booed-on-question-time-after-describing-discrimination-video

QuoteA Polish woman is booed by audience members on BBC1's Question Time when she says she feels no longer welcomed by 52% of British voters who backed Brexit. Speaking on Thursday's programme, filmed in Hartlepool, the woman says she's lived in the England for 23 years and was never discriminated against before the Brexit vote

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/21/no-10-rejects-alain-juppes-threats-to-push-uk-border-from-calais-to-kent

QuoteDowning Street has rejected the suggestion from the French presidential hopeful Alain Juppé that he would tear up a treaty with the UK to push back the border for migrants from Calais to Kent.

A source made clear that the prime minister, Theresa May, who has spent two days meeting world leaders at the European council meeting in Brussels, would expect any French leader to maintain the agreement.

Juppé, the current favourite to win the presidency, said he wanted a complete renegotiation of Le Touquet treaty, the deal that keeps border checks and thousands of refugees and migrants on the French side of the Channel.

"We can't tolerate what is going on in Calais, the image is disastrous for our country and there are also extremely serious economic and security consequences for the people of Calais," he said in Paris.

"So the first thing is to denounce the Le Touquet accords. We cannot accept making the selection on French territory of people that Britain does or doesn't want. It's up to Britain to do that job."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 23, 2016, 05:27:22 PM
 :eek:

I've heard of a run on the banks, but NEVER heard of prime banks ditching nations before, much less the fucking UK. That third currency drop might just be on the way, and worse than the first two, as these banks ditch Pounds for euros and the Swiss franc with no intention of coming back.

Ready for the UK to be the new "rogue state" on the block? That sounds like what's happening here. Never would have thought I'd see the day.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 23, 2016, 05:39:07 PM
This was obvious and forseeable.  The UK was a great place to have a bank due to the City of London secrecy laws, EU common market access and historical Commonwealth links.  Not to mention fortuitous positioning between the American east coast and the Mid East (time zones for business) and historical banking links in China and the Middle East.

Not to mention these banks like to employ the best and brightest, no matter where the fuck they are from. 

The EU vote will have convinced them off the necessity to move, but the post-Brexit racism is likely confirming that as a good decision.  This is the same reason you don't see tech companies setting up in Idaho or Montana, other than the lack of infrastructure.  No-one wants to put their employees in a place where they're going to be shat upon simply for being foreign/different colour skin/not hetrosexual.  Market uncertainty plus intolerance is a deadly cocktail.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 23, 2016, 06:18:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 23, 2016, 03:50:02 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/22/leading-banks-set-to-pull-out-of-brexit-uk

QuoteBritain's biggest banks are preparing to relocate out of the UK in the first few months of 2017 amid growing fears over the impending Brexit negotiations, while smaller banks are making plans to get out before Christmas.

The dramatic claim is made in the Observer by the chief executive of the British Bankers' Association, Anthony Browne, who warns "the public and political debate at the moment is taking us in the wrong direction".

A source close to Brexit secretary David Davis said he and the chancellor Philip Hammond had last week sought to offer reassurance that they were determined to secure the status of the City of London.

However, the government's stated intention to take control of the freedom of movement into the UK is widely recognised among officials to be a hammer blow to any chance of retaining the present terms of trade for banks, particularly given the bellicose rhetoric of major politicians on the continent.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/oct/21/polish-woman-booed-on-question-time-after-describing-discrimination-video

QuoteA Polish woman is booed by audience members on BBC1's Question Time when she says she feels no longer welcomed by 52% of British voters who backed Brexit. Speaking on Thursday's programme, filmed in Hartlepool, the woman says she's lived in the England for 23 years and was never discriminated against before the Brexit vote

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/21/no-10-rejects-alain-juppes-threats-to-push-uk-border-from-calais-to-kent

QuoteDowning Street has rejected the suggestion from the French presidential hopeful Alain Juppé that he would tear up a treaty with the UK to push back the border for migrants from Calais to Kent.

A source made clear that the prime minister, Theresa May, who has spent two days meeting world leaders at the European council meeting in Brussels, would expect any French leader to maintain the agreement.

Juppé, the current favourite to win the presidency, said he wanted a complete renegotiation of Le Touquet treaty, the deal that keeps border checks and thousands of refugees and migrants on the French side of the Channel.

"We can't tolerate what is going on in Calais, the image is disastrous for our country and there are also extremely serious economic and security consequences for the people of Calais," he said in Paris.

"So the first thing is to denounce the Le Touquet accords. We cannot accept making the selection on French territory of people that Britain does or doesn't want. It's up to Britain to do that job."

:lulz: This is amazing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 24, 2016, 10:31:33 AM
 :drama1:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 24, 2016, 02:00:58 PM
Just moved the last of my savings from the UK back to Ireland. I was hoping that things would stabilise and Christmas shopping might push the pound up again, but I can't take the risk of any more bad news.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 24, 2016, 02:38:05 PM
I think Christmas shopping will be down quite a bit this year.  Between the weakening pound and continuing uncertainty, people won't be able to get previously good deals, and are saving for when shit goes down in March.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 24, 2016, 03:43:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 24, 2016, 02:38:05 PM
I think Christmas shopping will be down quite a bit this year.  Between the weakening pound and continuing uncertainty, people won't be able to get previously good deals, and are saving for when shit goes down in March.

Yeah, selfishly, exploitatively loads of people I know are travelling up the north or flying into London and buying up the cheap gifts for Christmas, but the retailers are saying a price correction on all retail goods is coming in the next few weeks.
I thought we would get past Christmas before that happens, because I thought a lot of people would be very pissed off at a 10-15% price hike on everything right before Christmas, but the retailers are saying they have to, to be able to continue importing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 25, 2016, 11:36:40 AM
Yeah, the whole Tesco-Unilever thing is an example of just how quickly this can happen.  Those stores probably don't want to raise their prices, but they can't absorb that big a hit in this financial quarter because they no doubt didn't budget for the loss of sterling purchasing power last financial year.

Yet another thing to thank the Brexiteers for.  Everyone forgot we're an island and so have to import goods.  We're not going to be eating fancy financial products for Christmas, nor burning apps to stay warm.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 25, 2016, 01:53:48 PM
It messes with me that there's a part of me that is shrieking about the potential profit in seeing the pattern in all this, even as I consciously recoil from its source.

There are fully supported currency markets that trade in tenths of a "pip", or about 1/1000 of 1% of a currency's value, and allow up to 200 FOLD leveraging. This allows for some truly ridiculous ROI if you can call the market, and currecies often have distinct seasons related to holidays, commodity yields, and taxation law. There's definitely a business as usual way to make money, even a legit fortune, trading money for someone willing to take serious but measured risks. I would not mind being such one day, as a means to fund public and private non-profit efforts, when I've grown more and gotten a "real" education.

But there's a part of me that just smells blood in the air and is tired of being hungry. I ignore it because I want to be a good person, but I know that the many like me that can see this happening don't really give a shit. The state of play changed in an exploitable way. Why deny the hard math?

All I have in reply to my darkside is "Because it's wrong." An irrational maxim based on my conscience and understanding of the consequences of this.

I don't know where I'm going with this rant. Guess I just feel conflicted and I'm tired.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 26, 2016, 01:26:59 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on October 25, 2016, 01:53:48 PM

All I have in reply to my darkside is "Because it's wrong." An irrational maxim based on my conscience and understanding of the consequences of this.


"because it's wrong" isn't really an issue when shit is this fucked. Right and wrong are a pleasant fiction only if you can afford them. If I gotta turn cannibal, I'll eat the dumb people first. Not because they deserve it but because the rich are too well armed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 26, 2016, 08:13:38 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 26, 2016, 01:26:59 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on October 25, 2016, 01:53:48 PM

All I have in reply to my darkside is "Because it's wrong." An irrational maxim based on my conscience and understanding of the consequences of this.


"because it's wrong" isn't really an issue when shit is this fucked. Right and wrong are a pleasant fiction only if you can afford them. If I gotta turn cannibal, I'll eat the dumb people first. Not because they deserve it but because the rich are too well armed.

That's not far from my personal justification. See the resources are going to move no matter what I do at this point, not that I'm in a position to capitalize right now. I'm kinda glad. Not a lot.

See my mentality would to eat the rich first BECAUSE they're "armed", and so gain their power, worst case scenario for failure being better than or equal to not trying.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on October 27, 2016, 06:59:25 PM
I feel sorry for that you all are getting screwed by these currency fluctuations, but at the same ti e I'm really really glad that they're happening to the people who voted for brexit. They've sown the wind and now they're going to reap the whirlwind.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 27, 2016, 08:40:08 PM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on October 27, 2016, 06:59:25 PM
I feel sorry for that you all are getting screwed by these currency fluctuations, but at the same ti e I'm really really glad that they're happening to the people who voted for brexit. They've sown the wind and now they're going to reap the whirlwind.
Yeah if anything I was one of the filthy migrants who came over to avail of the sweet British pound, fortunately I got most out before I moved back to Ireland. It's weird seeing it in our business as well, cost of building our equipment went up because most of our electronics are from a German supplier.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on October 27, 2016, 10:25:49 PM

QuoteNissan has confirmed it will build both the new Qashqai and the X-Trail SUV at its Sunderland plant thanks to government "support and assurances".
Colin Lawther, Nissan's senior vice president for manufacturing in Europe, told The World At One's Martha Kearney the government had not given the company a special deal.

Extremely relevant
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNrLI3OBwg
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 27, 2016, 10:37:11 PM
Without watching yet, I'm guessing the word "yet" is either missing or implied or there is, in fact, a special deal.

It smells of a shitshow and deals for mates.

ETA- Memo to self to watch links first.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on October 27, 2016, 10:57:35 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 27, 2016, 10:37:11 PM
Without watching yet, I'm guessing the word "yet" is either missing or implied or there is, in fact, a special deal.

It smells of a shitshow and deals for mates.

I just love that a bunch of global businessmen know what our industrial strategy is going to be when we leave the EU even though the Tories won't deign to tell the rest of Parliament wtf is going on. Shenanigans all round is my best guess. Also - if Nissan aren't getting a special deal then all the rest of the  automotive sector is going to get the same nod, nod, wink, wink sweetener. And bang goes the £350M per week that was never going to go to the NHS anyway.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 27, 2016, 11:13:07 PM
Quote from: MMIX on October 27, 2016, 10:57:35 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 27, 2016, 10:37:11 PM
Without watching yet, I'm guessing the word "yet" is either missing or implied or there is, in fact, a special deal.

It smells of a shitshow and deals for mates.

I just love that a bunch of global businessmen know what our industrial strategy is going to be when we leave the EU even though the Tories won't deign to tell the rest of Parliament wtf is going on. Shenanigans all round is my best guess. Also - if Nissan aren't getting a special deal then all the rest of the  automotive sector is going to get the same nod, nod, wink, wink sweetener. And bang goes the £350M per week that was never going to go to the NHS anyway.

It would be funny if only it wasn't going to end up going to shit in more than a few ways. You can't even trust any backroom deals because who-ever you fucking make them with has a moderate chance of quitting in the immediate future. When you can't trust a good bribe, what can you do apart from take your money elsewhere?

There was a nice bit in private eye about may's dealings and financials:
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/issue-1429/news

Between that and the only journalist convicted in Elveden (A sun journalist, of course) having his conviction quashed, it's feeling more and more like an attempt to resurrect the early 80's in some strange grotesque way. Just watch for the next incarnation of the yuppie coming, I can feel it in my fucking bones.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on October 28, 2016, 01:26:09 AM
Break out the red braces lads; we're going in !
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on October 28, 2016, 02:13:48 AM
Quote from: MMIX on October 28, 2016, 01:26:09 AM
Break out the red braces lads; we're going in !

I would just like to say that the way folks do words across the pond is truly beyond my ken. And I ken my words pretty darn good if I wanna.

I don't know what that turn of phrase means, but it sounds horrible and I like it!

Can I make newsfeed recommendations yet? Cuz this is something folks should see coming in the door IMO.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 28, 2016, 12:51:25 PM
"Braces" I think in americanese is "suspenders" like elasticated straps that go over your shoulders and hold up your trousers pants? Back in the 80's bright red braces were the uniform of the affluent wanker ;)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 01, 2016, 07:28:44 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 28, 2016, 12:51:25 PM
"Braces" I think in americanese is "suspenders" like elasticated straps that go over your shoulders and hold up your trousers pants? Back in the 80's bright red braces were the uniform of the affluent wanker ;)
:lol:
This is very far from what I even speculated, and weirder on a fundamental level than my US sensibilities can really process. And it's pants for most people I know here. Trousers is sure to be understood, but taken to mean a particularly fancy sort of pants. In some places it might be used to refer to under shorts, but it's probably due to looking for a more tactful word than underwear for one's unmentionables. We're talking like back country conservative folks who need synonyms and euphemisms for things you'd probably never believe would be taboo enough to qualify.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 03, 2016, 02:00:06 PM
For more cultural context google the episodes of "only fools and horses" where del boy demonstrates yuppies in detail.

In other news, Court dictates that mps get a say in brexit deal. So add a heap of shit and around 3 years to the shitshow. Responses to decision laughably predictable.

In ukip news, their donor hates their MP and is now declaring so publicly. Note that I did not use any plural terms there. Somewhat understandable as the most detailed quote I've seen from Carswell (the MP) was an emoticon.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 03, 2016, 02:12:31 PM
So what happens now, appeal at the supreme court, followed by (ironically) an appeal at the European court?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2016, 02:27:46 PM
Appeal to be heard next month, though I can't possibly imagine why they're bothering.  Even cursory knowledge of how the UK government works meant that Parliament would need to vote.  Not to mention the political ramifications of an unelected government claiming a democratic mandate based on a referendum ("Parliament is sovereign" is apparently really hard to grasp).

Double irony in that the Brexiteers were talking about "restoring sovereignty" to the UK.  Well, this is sovereignty, jackasses.

Incidentally, the trial of the man who shot Jo Cox starts on the 14th.  Mark it in your diaries.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 03, 2016, 03:41:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 03, 2016, 02:27:46 PM
Appeal to be heard next month, though I can't possibly imagine why they're bothering.  Even cursory knowledge of how the UK government works meant that Parliament would need to vote.  Not to mention the political ramifications of an unelected government claiming a democratic mandate based on a referendum ("Parliament is sovereign" is apparently really hard to grasp).

Double irony in that the Brexiteers were talking about "restoring sovereignty" to the UK.  Well, this is sovereignty, jackasses.

Incidentally, the trial of the man who shot Jo Cox starts on the 14th.  Mark it in your diaries.

The farage crowd is having fits everywhere and the irony is quite delicious.

There's also interesting implications as a result of the court decision. Expect some odd statements from the law and order mob shortly.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 03, 2016, 05:08:37 PM
Oh dear, Sinn Fein, who have always historically abstained from taking their seats in parliament (because they would have to swear allegiance to the queen), have said they will be attending for that vote, to vote against the brexit.
The outrage will be delicious if former IRA like associates show up for the vote. They are right to do so, Northern Ireland is a part of the UK  and SF have a duty of care to their constituents and should have its vote in parliament.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Goddess Eris on November 04, 2016, 11:09:31 PM
Innit jokes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2016, 03:38:29 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 03, 2016, 03:41:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 03, 2016, 02:27:46 PM
Appeal to be heard next month, though I can't possibly imagine why they're bothering.  Even cursory knowledge of how the UK government works meant that Parliament would need to vote.  Not to mention the political ramifications of an unelected government claiming a democratic mandate based on a referendum ("Parliament is sovereign" is apparently really hard to grasp).

Double irony in that the Brexiteers were talking about "restoring sovereignty" to the UK.  Well, this is sovereignty, jackasses.

Incidentally, the trial of the man who shot Jo Cox starts on the 14th.  Mark it in your diaries.

The farage crowd is having fits everywhere and the irony is quite delicious.

There's also interesting implications as a result of the court decision. Expect some odd statements from the law and order mob shortly.

The Bar Council is trying to pressure Lord Chancellor Liz Truss into condemning the press attacks on the judiciary, and Tory MPs (like the eminently sensible Dominic Grieve) have called upon May to also condemn the hysterical press reaction.

No reply from the government so far.  That could be because it's a Saturday, but I suspect it's got more to do with the government secretly being quite pleased at having the press fight their corner.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2016, 05:01:35 PM
Cabinet approved press hysteria confirmed. 

QuoteThe Lord Chancellor has backed the independence of the UK's judiciary but stopped short of condemning attacks on senior judges over the Brexit ruling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37883576
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 05, 2016, 10:19:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2016, 05:01:35 PM
Cabinet approved press hysteria confirmed. 

QuoteThe Lord Chancellor has backed the independence of the UK's judiciary but stopped short of condemning attacks on senior judges over the Brexit ruling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37883576

It's going to get funnier. I'm waiting for a clever fucker to work out a way for this to end up in an eu court in some fashion. A human rights breach or something similar would be perfect.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2016, 01:05:15 AM
If the Supreme Court also rules against the government (and they will - to call this an open and shut legal case would miss out on the perfect opportunity to call it a slam dunk), the European Court is the only place they could lodge another appeal in.

And I will laugh.  Maybe not as hard as say, Juncker, but probably close.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 06, 2016, 11:25:55 AM
The only way that garbled mess could end up being worse in its execution is if it DID go to the vote, pass in parliament, but the Queen refused to sign it into law. In which case again, they would have to apply to the European court and hope they find her refusal a violation of their human rights and whatever about parliament not being sovereign, in this case it would be sovereign != sovereign.

Now correct me if I am wrong, there was talk of repealing the European convention on human rights; if this occurs BEFORE the appeal, am I correct in understanding that they cannot appeal to the European courts?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2016, 11:41:00 AM
I believe, as a constitutional matter pertaining to EU law, this would be handled by the European Court of Justice, and so the ECHR wouldn't apply (though I believe the idea now is to repeal the ECHR via the Grand Repeal Bill).

However, if the EU Supreme Court finds in the UK's favour (lol), it could then be challenged in the ECHR anyway.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 06, 2016, 11:54:21 AM
So either way, that adds what, 3-5 years to this whole mess?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2016, 03:02:58 PM
Assuming they want to be stupid about it.  I'd be somewhat surprised if they pursued it after the Supreme Court ruling - it would be quicker and less painful to suck it up and negotiate with Parliament.

Of course, if the government had brought Parliament in in the first place, set up a cross-Parliamentary committee with access to the Brexit team, brought in the Scottish, Welsh and NI assemblies/parliament, then this wouldn't be an issue.  But no, May wanted to act like a tin-pot dictator.  Law and order politicians...always a certain level of contempt for the law as it actually is, there.

At least we can console ourselves with the thought of how much more of a fuckup this would be if Leadsom or Johnson was PM.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 06, 2016, 05:18:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 06, 2016, 03:02:58 PM

At least we can console ourselves with the thought of how much more of a fuckup this would be if Leadsom or Johnson was PM.

I would be surprised if either of that unfunny comedy duo would have survived in office for 3 months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2016, 08:44:01 PM
True, but then Gove might still be in the running.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Goddess Eris on November 06, 2016, 08:52:41 PM
I left my shitbag ex-husband in London just before they voted to leave the EU, and fuck it if I'm worried for the friends of mine still over there... I'm just cackling like mad that all my exes live in Brexit

and are fuked lol
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 11:33:06 PM
an idle thought.. what do you all think the odds are of the Falklands eventually jumping ship to Argentina now that the UK is dying?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 11, 2016, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 11:33:06 PM
an idle thought.. what do you all think the odds are of the Falklands eventually jumping ship to Argentina now that the UK is dying?
Depends entirely upon what happens with Scottland, NI etc. anyone of them exits the union and that will be open the floodgates. Will end up as the Union of England and Wales.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 11, 2016, 09:13:21 AM
Quote from: Faust on November 11, 2016, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on November 10, 2016, 11:33:06 PM
an idle thought.. what do you all think the odds are of the Falklands eventually jumping ship to Argentina now that the UK is dying?
Depends entirely upon what happens with Scottland, NI etc. anyone of them exits the union and that will be open the floodgates. Will end up as the Union of England and Wales.

We could be called Wingland to keep morale up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 13, 2016, 04:49:45 AM
Falklands will never go back to Argentina, or independent. 

QuoteOn a turnout of 91.94%, an overwhelming 99.8% voted to remain a British territory, with only three votes against

Argentina's a complete basket-case economically, and the status of former British subjects on the island would be extremely uncertain, to put it mildly.  And the Falklands aren't going to go independent and pay for their military defense themselves.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 14, 2016, 12:03:50 AM
That's far too reasonable. Current fear mongering should mention Argentina sneak attacking while Brazilians are cutting off heads. Or something.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 22, 2016, 01:56:33 PM
AH HA HA HA

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/22/brexit-deal-could-end-eus-top-court-warns-europes-senior-judge/

QuoteEU's top court could rule over the content of any Brexit deal, Europe's most senior judge has warned.

Koen Lenaerts indicated that the European Court of Justice, long considered by Eurosceptics as a bastion of European interference, could preside over Britain's exit terms.

OH HO HO HO

QuoteSteve Peers, a professor of EU law at Essex University, told the FT: "It's probably only a matter of time before some aspect of the Brexit issue gets decided by the EU courts and there's no small irony in that prospect."

It came as Brexit Secretary David Davis was warned that negotiations for leaving the European Union will be ""tough" and "intense" as MEPs stressed that the UK would not be able to remain in the single market without accepting free movement of people.

QuoteSpeaking at a Westminster media briefing, the Number 10 spokesman declined to respond to repeated questions over whether the relationship the Government is seeking would require single market membership.

HE HE HE

The clowns are running the circus and have forgot that the ringmaster is actually pretty important. Unfortunately the ringmaster is insisting on being mute and letting shit devolve into a full blown cesspit explosion.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on January 17, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
Listening to Theresa May's speech right now. She is working hard at appearing not-stern and upbeat but she's doing well.

Complete wishlist at the moment but I suppose it's the beginnings of a plan. Full leave and renegotiation is going to be madness though.

EDIT: Oh but wait: Scotland say they want to retain single market access.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on January 17, 2017, 09:51:49 PM
Quote from: Theresa May
It is not the means that matters, but the ends.

Uhh
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 19, 2017, 02:43:21 AM
Quote from: Xaz on January 17, 2017, 09:51:49 PM
Quote from: Theresa May
It is not the means that matters, but the ends.

Uhh

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 23, 2017, 02:37:31 PM
Brexit won't have a negative effect on the UK economy. Businesses leaving is empty fear posturing from the remain camp.
Oh what's this...

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/lloyds-london-leaving-london/

I was expecting some of the smaller banks to do this, but Lloyds going is a huge problem, that will trigger some of the associated banks to move as well.

The worst is, because of the size of lloyds, and because of peoples automatic reaction to this, which will be to close accounts and move to Banks remaining British, the impact on the sterling and the financial stability of the uk is going to be risky. I would find it hilarious if Teresa May has to give a statement asking people not to close their accounts with this european bank as it could be damaging to the UK.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 23, 2017, 04:08:06 PM
Along with HSBC and Deutsche Bank, this is going to gut London's financial centre.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 23, 2017, 04:43:15 PM
On the plus side, if London is completely gutted, the air might become breathable again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38716498
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 23, 2017, 04:45:32 PM
 :lulz: Wow.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 23, 2017, 04:58:53 PM
There's a reason I'm staying inside with the windows closed (other than it being cold outside).

I like how in 8 years time, the level may be considered safe, by the standards set by the EU which we are about to leave.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Salty on January 23, 2017, 05:00:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 23, 2017, 04:43:15 PM
On the plus side, if London is completely gutted, the air might become breathable again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38716498

Perhaps we can set up a business selling canned air. Sweet, Mt Hood, Oregonian air. For $50 per 12 oz canister. I am ready to bottle, sir.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 23, 2017, 05:10:26 PM
Amazon keeps sending me all this air in plastic pods. Maybe we could sell those.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 23, 2017, 05:14:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 23, 2017, 04:43:15 PM
On the plus side, if London is completely gutted, the air might become breathable again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38716498
Yeah, when I had to cross it I would come home and have to sit in the shower with lots of steam till my asthema subsided.

I had kind of expected deutchbank, not so much hsbc, but I was really surprised with Llyods would have thought of them as British as they come.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2017, 12:38:28 PM
Supreme Court ruled we are still a country of laws, not men, and that royal perogative does not give the Prime Minister power to unilaterally break international treaties.

Expect allegations of treason and death threats against the judges in short order.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 24, 2017, 12:56:11 PM
It's already started.

Farage accuses them of delaying the process, others complaining it is ignoring the will of the people.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4150822/Judges-ruling-PM-executive-powers-trigger-Brexit.html

The worst is, a strong foundation of governance is required in or out of the EU, if anything it shows the process on the balance of power is there to stop rash decisions by the Prime Minister

Now its probably all hot air as parliament will likely vote to accept whatever is put in front of them, but it is important that vote happens.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2017, 01:09:07 PM
Depends on how badly Parliament wants to assert its independence.  There are arguments that the process thus far has been secretive and without input from key sectors of government and civil society....refusing to vote pending further input could give Parliament greater control over preceedings.  But then we have to balance that against character and actual assassination threats...

And why do we still let that tosspot Farage speak on anything?  Didn't he run off to America to be FOX News' new coffee boy?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2017, 01:52:40 PM
Labour and Tory rebels are pushing for a white paper on Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 24, 2017, 02:08:39 PM
Well at least it means brexit wont be happening this year. How long do inquiries take?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2017, 02:13:34 PM
Over something as complex as Brexit?  Could be years.  Of course, it's not a given yet, but if they did get it, it would be a big win for accountability.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 17, 2017, 09:13:17 AM
Blair making anti brexit statements. Guess that's fucked it then. Support for this idiocy will be at a record high by Monday.

In next weeks news, Charlie Manson explaining why you should have voted for Clinton.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 21, 2017, 06:13:24 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39042876

QuoteEuropean Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has warned the UK it faces a "very hefty" bill for Brexit.
He promised two years of "tough negotiation", when discussions on leaving terms get under way between the government and the European Union.
Exit will not come "at a discount or at zero cost", he said in a speech to the Belgian Federal Parliament.
Reports suggest the UK could have to pay the EU up to 60 billion euros (£51bn) after Brexit talks start.

As with any figure quoted in news like this, it's almost certainly going to be higher. 80bn+ would be my guess by the time the current incompetent mob finish the deal, around 90bn by the time the public get to know about it.

Austerity on meth is coming, and yet still half the country are just screaming to get on with it because they're damn fools with no understanding of political realities. May's legacy at this rate will be fucking the country to the nth generation. When the bill lands, that legacy may well expand to include the breakaway of scotland from this idiocy too. I wonder what kind of bill they'll try to level to those north of the border? I'd guess at least a quarter which will be treated in a similar fashion to poll tax demands.

I'm starting to think that making a few Canadian connections might not be the worst move I could make around now.



Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 22, 2017, 07:28:32 AM
I wouldn't bank on scotland leaving the UK. We are a nation comprised almost exclusively of dumb fucks who already voted to remain based on the fact that our position in europe might be compromised if we left. I'm guessing they could state the same case this time around and we'd still fucking vote to stay an occupied territory. We, as a nation, are that stupid  :eek:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 22, 2017, 05:36:47 PM
I'm not so sure. It depends on just how big a shitshow brexit becomes to a degree. With idiot nationalism on the rise everywhere we might just join in.

When the brexit bill lands it'll force the conversation again at the least. A few more nhs and social care fuckups may just tip it.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 27, 2017, 08:46:31 PM
Meanwhile...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39099574

QuoteA woman married to a British man for 27 years has been sent back to Singapore.

Irene Clennell told the BBC she has been removed without warning.

She had been living near Durham with her husband, and has two British sons, as well as a granddaughter, in the UK.

Periods spent abroad caring for her parents are thought to have invalidated her residential status.

Note that this is under pre-Brexit rules.  This country is going to be a complete clusterfuck by April 2018
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 07, 2017, 11:32:42 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39200658

QuoteThe amendment, which was carried by a majority of 98, would require the final terms of the UK's withdrawal from the EU to be put to separate votes in the Commons and the Lords.

Some peers believe this would amount to a veto but ministers insist the UK would leave the EU anyway irrespective of whether it was approved or not.

That constitutional crisis is still a possibility.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 14, 2017, 05:04:39 PM
Second referendum coming for Scotland it seems.

There's no good outcome here. It's difficult to assess which is going to be worse.

A-union and following the Tories off the cliff.

B-separation and a solo jump from a slightly different cliff.

All I'm sure about is we'll pick the worst possible option. It's inevitable.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2017, 08:47:01 PM
Not to revel but a lot of Irish people have been joking about setting up The union of Craic, where The republic, Northern Ireland and Scotland form a state.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 14, 2017, 09:37:47 PM
That would stand a chance at being viable, if only there was a chance at stopping arguing which sect of Christianity is the right one.

So no hope there then.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2017, 10:53:53 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on March 14, 2017, 09:37:47 PM
That would stand a chance at being viable, if only there was a chance at stopping arguing which sect of Christianity is the right one.

So no hope there then.
For the time being, we recently discovered a mass grave of 700 bodies in a nunnery, even before that less then 30% of people are religious, We'll see what happens in the next few years. That said Northern Ireland is a massive money pit, it would probably take the Republic and the Scotts just to cover its day to day expenses.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2017, 10:57:08 PM
11 billion deficit, I believe?

Probably higher, once Unionist terrorism starts up again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2017, 11:04:05 PM
Yeah, the North is getting really worrying,Republicans are laying off violence, because they need a smily happy face on the prospect of reunification of a united Ireland, though aren't above it if things go sour.  I really feel bad for the unionists, they are digging their heels in, feel like they are under attack from the republicans and all the while letting slip comments like Arlene Forester cant get in contact with Teresa May or Westminster, they have been hung out to dry.

I don't see why England would do that though, what is there to gain by alienating the unionists, unless it really is nothing more then a money issue with them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2017, 11:06:56 PM
I really think they'd be happy to see the back of Northern Ireland and let it be the Republic's problem.  Westminster saves money, less seats in Parliament (meaning greater theoretical Tory majority), washing hands of the Irish issue...I could see it appealing to short term thinkers.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2017, 11:11:40 PM
Makes sense, great that would result in problems here, unless it became it's own state, at least in the interim. What about Scotland then, I would have thought they would be more reluctant to see that go because of the military bases, Cameron certainly played the "Better together" song well to them a couple of years back, May doesn't seem as engaging, well, with anyone.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2017, 11:20:05 PM
Yes, and the dispute over ownership of the North Sea oil deposits.

On the other hand, removing Scotland from the Union would mean 59 less seats in Parliament, only one of which is reliably Tory.  It lowers the bar for obtaining a majority considerably.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 15, 2017, 09:27:58 AM
I love how finally, on the way out the door, the people of scotland would have some input into who governs the UK. We're dumb, tho. Never going to happen. Calling it now - they'll offer the same line in bullshit, More power to scottish parliament and a secure place in europe and we'll eat it up like cupcakes cos we're a nation of retards  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 15, 2017, 11:53:41 AM
Yeah the waterford wispers news weren't all that that subtle about their upset over the original result:
http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/03/13/scotland-given-second-chance-to-shit-themselves/
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2017, 05:13:31 PM
Martin McGuinness died, he was the former second in command of the IRA, who turned politician and was one of the biggest campaigners to the peace process in NI, it's a real shame because he would have been a good hand to represent stability up there through what will be a painful Brexit process.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2017, 07:39:36 PM
Meanwhile, the scum are rising to the surface...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/20/jim-dowson-back-scottish-independence-patriotic-news-agency-far-right?CMP=fb_gu

QuoteA far-right millionaire with Ulster loyalist connections plans to use his international social media network, which backed Donald Trump, to support Scottish independence. Jim Dowson, a former financial backer of the British National party and former member of Britain First, confirmed on Monday that he will be deploying his "Patriotic News Agency" and other networks with their bases in Hungary and Serbia to promote Scottish separatism.

QuoteDowson was unapologetic about his 180-degree turn on the union between Scotland and the rest of the UK. "I have been a fanatical defender of the union, but I am a pragmatist, and England is finished. It is not just finished because of the Muslim problem and immigration, but also because as of now we are looking at permanent Tory rule. There is no effective opposition to the Tories, so what do you want then – permanent Conservative rule for the next 30 years?"

QuoteA one-time member of the far-right Britain First organisation, which he resigned from three years ago, Dowson said he would be directing the pro-independence online media campaign from his bases in Hungary and Serbia as well as in Britain, including from an office in Stirling.

QuoteAn unapologetic advocate of Christian nationalist anti-immigrant groups across Europe, the 52-year-old former evangelical preacher is also a strong proponent of Vladimir Putin. Dowson has spoken at a conference of far-right leaders in Russia and wants Trump to enter an era of cooperation with Putin.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2017, 11:51:18 PM
He sounds like an oppertunist, he sees nationalism in Scottland and NI as a way to promote more of the xenophobic aspects nationalism has become associated with. Ironically and what should have been obvious is that Scottland and NI leaving the UK results in them keeping the free trade and movement of Europe so he may be hitching his trailer onto the wrong truck.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 22, 2017, 04:45:16 AM
Oh it is opportunism, but never underestimate how a multi-millionaire with deeply held convictions can sway the parameters of debate.  Especially when Scottish nationalists can't even admit that there is a racism problem among them.

With regards to the EU, it's my understanding that Scotland would leave, then have to reapply.  Even though Scotland would be mostly compliant, on the legislative side that process could take years.  I imagine the idea is to sway people's opinions on the suitability of doing so in the interim.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 25, 2017, 03:18:59 PM
UKIP's only MP has quit UKIP.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39393213

QuoteMr Carswell chose to announce the decision on his blog, saying: "I switched to UKIP because I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving UKIP."


QuoteEarlier this month, Mr Carswell vowed to "absolutely" fight the next general election as a UKIP candidate.


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 26, 2017, 12:14:44 PM
So just what is in the water in Clacton anyway?  I mean, voting for Carswell when he was a Tory was bad enough, but I can sort of understand it.   But now?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 02, 2017, 06:11:11 PM
Less than 5 days since we triggered article 50 and we already have senior political figures suggesting war with Spain in the national press

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 02, 2017, 07:07:38 PM
What ho, what good is leaving the EU if you cant go to war with them?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 02, 2017, 08:14:53 PM
Due to our NATO defence clauses, we would have to declare war on ourselves and come to the aid of Spain, too.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 02, 2017, 08:26:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 02, 2017, 08:14:53 PM
Due to our NATO defence clauses, we would have to declare war on ourselves and come to the aid of Spain, too.

Well you can expect the US to sit it out until the invoice is paid in full so you don't have to worry about any meddling in your "intra-alliance conflict." War is such a dirty word after all.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 02, 2017, 10:04:34 PM
Interestingly enough, the UK actually pays the 2% of its GDP as required by NATO.  Spain, by contrast, only spends 1.2%, so at least we will have the support of President Trump.

In other news, 8 people beat a Kurdish teenage refugee almost to death, while a much larger group of 20 just sat on their hands and watched.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39470487

QuoteA group of up to 20 people looked on as a gang punched and kicked a teenage asylum seeker at a bus stop in south London, neighbours have said.

Eight people are being questioned by police on suspicion of the attempted murder of the Kurdish Iranian victim following Friday's attack in Shrublands Avenue, Croydon.

Those involved in the attack have been labelled "scum" by the local MP.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan also condemned the attack.

Worth noting that there was also a big joint Britain First and English Defence League march in London on the same day.  Could be coincidence...could be.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 02, 2017, 10:18:36 PM
So the war comments came because Spain has been offered a Veto on descisions for Gibraltar, the republicans in NI are calling for the same.
I hope it doesn't happen:Knowing how the unionists will react is a fast track to a return to the bad old days of soldiers being kneecapped, retaliating soldiers shooting children, leading to retailatory kneecappings repeat as you will for 30+ years and throw the odd bombing in there.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 02, 2017, 10:30:43 PM
There's a lot of stupid nationalism coming, no matter what.  Throw Scottish successionism into the mix and the UK political bandwidth will be stretched to breaking point.

And that's without something like a downturn in the global economy, or, say, an international crisis with Russia, coming into the mix.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 12:29:31 AM
So I should be investing in flag producing businesses then?

That's not even a joke, there's going to be plenty waved and burnt of all nations at this rate and it's not likely to slow down.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 03, 2017, 12:39:25 AM
Well, anything except companies that produce Union Jacks, maybe  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 01:37:59 AM
I'm not sure on that, I can see a lot getting sold and burnt in Scotland, Ireland, France, the eu.....



Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 03, 2017, 02:33:00 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 03, 2017, 12:39:25 AM
Well, anything except companies that produce Union Jacks, maybe  :lulz:

Quote from: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 01:37:59 AM
I'm not sure on that, I can see a lot getting sold and burnt in Scotland, Ireland, France, the eu.....

Emphasis on being 100% environment friendly cotton and sell with a canister of "government issue heating alcohol" (190 proof) as a fire starter kit in homes. CLEARLY state how it's intended to be used and specifically disclaim a whole bunch of horrible things one might do with such most especially "imbibing the heating alcohol".

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 03, 2017, 04:19:31 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 02, 2017, 08:14:53 PM
Due to our NATO defence clauses, we would have to declare war on ourselves and come to the aid of Spain, too.

This is how you world war I.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 03, 2017, 07:21:50 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 03, 2017, 12:39:25 AM
Well, anything except companies that produce Union Jacks, maybe  :lulz:

Half of scotland think they're time travellers fighting the battle of the boyne. Scotland is going to be epic fun for the next couple of years.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 03, 2017, 10:25:27 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 01:37:59 AM
I'm not sure on that, I can see a lot getting sold and burnt in Scotland, Ireland, France, the eu.....

Well, if we split with Scotland it will be back to the cross of St George.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 03, 2017, 11:29:50 AM
Flag burning is a national pastime of the unionists up in NI, specifically their racist holiday: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleventh_Night

The Republic has no ill will for the UK, although they will try their best to pilfer any financial businesses they can, our useless leader doesn't want to get involved at all, and definitely wont ask about the veto, meanwhile that mess is ticking over: They failed to form a government last week so the north should have gone back into direct rule; Westminster's response was quite funny, it was basically "Take all the time you need, don't mind the deadline, just form a fucking government please".

I think the bandwidth thing will be really serious, between wasting time on Gibraltar, Scotland and NI, that's time that should be focused on trade deals, and offhand comments about going to war is not going to sweeten any of those trade deals.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 03, 2017, 11:47:42 AM
There was a study on that, in fact: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/20/brexit-could-force-uk-parliament-to-be-ineffective-on-everything-else-report.html

QuoteThe IfG suggests that up to 15 new bills, in addition to the Great Repeal (Brexit) Bill, could be required to secure the U.K.'s future beyond its exit from the European Union. These will be announced at the annual Queen's Speech in May, and could address topics such as agriculture and trade.

The Queen's Speech forms part of the ceremonial start to the parliamentary year and outlines proposed legislation. The IfG's report argues that as roughly 20 bills are outlined in the speech, the predicted high proportion of those to be related to Brexit leaves little room to address other, perhaps domestic, issues.

The IfG also suggests that the legislative upheaval that Brexit is likely to catalyze could lead to the government using different routes to make changes to U.K. law, which could mean that such legal amendments are not subject to parliamentary scrutiny.

"The legislation required for Brexit will leave little parliamentary time for anything else ... it will be a challenge for both the government and parliament to do all this while still ensuring full scrutiny and leaving room for the government's domestic policy agenda," Hannah White, IfG director of research, said in a statement.

But Andrew Hood, a lawyer at Dechert specializing in EU law and former legal adviser to previous U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron, told CNBC via telephone that the potential 15 additional bills, "minimizes the cliff-edge fear that people have." Hood added that U.K. parliament only has a "certain bandwidth," meaning that domestic issues could be "put on the backburner," but the significance of Brexit meant that it ought to take priority.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 03, 2017, 12:27:46 PM
That could also result in opportunistic bills being introduced in a hope that they will get through without much scrutiny as well, the US just passed a bill effectively killing net neutrality, and that was high profile, imagine what can get passed when no one is looking closely.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 02:36:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 03, 2017, 10:25:27 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 01:37:59 AM
I'm not sure on that, I can see a lot getting sold and burnt in Scotland, Ireland, France, the eu.....

Well, if we split with Scotland it will be back to the cross of St George.

True, but this is already an established market with sports and twats. We need to be watching the new markets which at the moment seems to be pushing for everyone. The story either way on the refugee is a mark of something quite special happening over here. And it's far from good to say the least.

QuoteI think the bandwidth thing will be really serious, between wasting time on Gibraltar, Scotland and NI, that's time that should be focused on trade deals, and offhand comments about going to war is not going to sweeten any of those trade deals.

Moving away from investment plans with obvious merit, there's this point.

I think you may be quite amazed at how every remaining scrap of UK territory will get drawn into this in some way or other. Things like  the Falklands will become issues of GREAT IMPORTANCE in due course. Let's not even start looking at the tax havens will get dragged into that. The chances of any kind of meaningful "deal" within 2 years in laughable, let alone any kind of good deal. It's as likely as Israel becoming cool with Palestinians in the next two years.

Add to that extremist views not feeling like they're being considered into the mix and I can see a few bombs or nasty events being more than likely. Which then stunts progress further into a lovely spiral of shite.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 02:57:33 PM
Quote from: Faust on April 03, 2017, 12:27:46 PM
That could also result in opportunistic bills being introduced in a hope that they will get through without much scrutiny as well, the US just passed a bill effectively killing net neutrality, and that was high profile, imagine what can get passed when no one is looking closely.

This is pretty much a certainty. Any change in the law over the next few years will not be to your benefit and you probably won't even know about half of them, at best. Where gets extra funding is going to be comical too. Public services are just waiting to be fucked everywhere and there will be plenty of cash for a showy defence project soon enough to show the UK still is a" powerful and serious county, honestly, Look at how much we're throwing at the military... "
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 03, 2017, 03:12:23 PM
And all we can do is strap in and wait to get fucked?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 05:50:37 PM
And invest in Flagco Ltd.

Buy now!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 03, 2017, 06:17:53 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 05:50:37 PM
And invest in Flagco Ltd.

Buy now!

Buy Swiss francs with your new dirty flag money and start shorting both the pound and the euro as both will likely hyperinflate to "pay" for all this and everyone else will be fleeing to the Swiss as a stable currency. Australian dollars could be a good base too. They crank out a significant amount of gold there IIRC.*

*the above statement is wild speculation only and does not constitute advice of any sort the reader of the above by reading it retains sole liability for their financial and all other decisions.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 06:32:14 PM
Look, I'm totally not the owner of flagco Ltd so stop any further accusations of a stock scam now.

Wait, what?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 03, 2017, 07:19:08 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 03, 2017, 06:32:14 PM
Look, I'm totally not the owner of flagco Ltd so stop any further accusations of a stock scam now.

Wait, what?

:lulz:  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2017, 10:47:21 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39498647

May's already trying to manage expectations.  We're off to a good start.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 05, 2017, 11:22:14 AM
Another 6 months of spin and we'll be being told a bad deal is better than a good deal.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 05, 2017, 11:24:37 AM
I thought the freedom of movement was the whole reason for this thing?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 05, 2017, 01:18:49 PM
Quote from: Faust on April 05, 2017, 11:24:37 AM
I thought the freedom of movement was the whole reason for this thing?

Nope, dumb fucks reading the Daily Fail and listening to Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage and then being allowed to vote as opposed to being marched into a gas chamber was the reason for this whole thing  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 05, 2017, 04:14:28 PM
One dehydrated toad on May not making it to the end of this whole ordeal.
As Prime Minister I mean. She might manage to live through it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2017, 08:45:41 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 05, 2017, 11:22:14 AM
Another 6 months of spin and we'll be being told a bad deal is better than a good deal.

Or indeed no deal at all.  The EU is refusing to discuss trade at all until the UK has left the EU.

Which means we will have to revert to WTO rules until we have a trade deal in place.  Remember all those people saying "WTO deals are OK"?  Those people are fucking insane.  We would have to put tariffs on EU trade until we could negotiate one and the EU doesn't need our trade as badly as we need theirs.  If the EU wanted to play hardball, all they'd need to do is stall negotiations until we got fed up with everything going up massively in price and came to them, hand in cap, for whatever deal they were willing to offer.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 05, 2017, 09:03:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 05, 2017, 08:45:41 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 05, 2017, 11:22:14 AM
Another 6 months of spin and we'll be being told a bad deal is better than a good deal.

Or indeed no deal at all.  The EU is refusing to discuss trade at all until the UK has left the EU.

Which means we will have to revert to WTO rules until we have a trade deal in place.  Remember all those people saying "WTO deals are OK"?  Those people are fucking insane.  We would have to put tariffs on EU trade until we could negotiate one and the EU doesn't need our trade as badly as we need theirs.  If the EU wanted to play hardball, all they'd need to do is stall negotiations until we got fed up with everything going up massively in price and came to them, hand in cap, for whatever deal they were willing to offer.

:eek: But of course that will be painted as the EU's fault right? Holy fucking shit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 05, 2017, 09:07:50 PM
That's insane, I was expecting a hard-line stance, but that's the worst-case scenarios.
Tax on all import/export, cheap holiday travel, booze, food, shit... Energy, the UK is entering the worst energy deficit its had, it's going to be buying energy daily until the new nuclear plant is up and running which they are saying five years, realistically could be another ten.

My company builds our equipment here for distribution in the UK, I'm hoping not but am pessimistic that this won't mean we will have to pay standard tariff as if moving outside the Eurozone.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2017, 09:09:18 PM
Probably.  Everything is the EU's fault.  The EU, health and safety laws, political correctness or Muslims. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 05, 2017, 10:10:19 PM
So... Obama. I wonder how popular the NotMyPresident meme is in the UK despite it being ridiculously obvious.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2017, 10:31:19 PM
The thing is in the UK, there's quite a big divide between the average person on the street, and political/pundit culture.  Most people in the UK, even the slightly racist ones, thought Obama was pretty decent, more or less.  Better than Bush, certainly, as Obama didnt lie us into any wars. 

But the pundit class...well, if you want to make it big, you can always try your luck in America.  And for conservative writers who want to stand out from the pack, that means appealing to the crazy right.  Curiously enough, the UKIP fringes share a lot of crazy beliefs with the crazy American right...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 05, 2017, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: Faust on April 05, 2017, 09:07:50 PM
That's insane, I was expecting a hard-line stance, but that's the worst-case scenarios.
Tax on all import/export, cheap holiday travel, booze, food, shit... Energy, the UK is entering the worst energy deficit its had, it's going to be buying energy daily until the new nuclear plant is up and running which they are saying five years, realistically could be another ten.

My company builds our equipment here for distribution in the UK, I'm hoping not but am pessimistic that this won't mean we will have to pay standard tariff as if moving outside the Eurozone.

May I suggest you're underestimating the energy issue? Coal plants nationwide are reaching end of life and going bang. Other options are proving costly and still won't close the gap much. And they're also the best part of a decade away from operational, assuming all permissions fly through with no questions or opposition.

There's been a few bangs over the last couple of years due to old gear and there will be more before its even considered a real problem. And that's not even starting to look at who may own future facilities and the subsequent problems there.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 06, 2017, 05:00:14 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 05, 2017, 10:31:19 PM
The thing is in the UK, there's quite a big divide between the average person on the street, and political/pundit culture.  Most people in the UK, even the slightly racist ones, thought Obama was pretty decent, more or less.  Better than Bush, certainly, as Obama didnt lie us into any wars. 

But the pundit class...well, if you want to make it big, you can always try your luck in America.  And for conservative writers who want to stand out from the pack, that means appealing to the crazy right.  Curiously enough, the UKIP fringes share a lot of crazy beliefs with the crazy American right...

I'm convinced that the "right" is globalizing faster and more coherently than the "globalists" on the left that they rail against as a common enemy precisely because of the phantom enemy that they're indoctrinated to fear. This is partly intentional, but not under direct control. I think I once heard the term "ladder conspiracy" from a book by RAW on the subject. It's like how a telephone prank can put a business out by prank calling. Nobody involved in the prank calls really knows the others or tries to coordinate, but the same basic operating info and intent causes a coalescing of action that SEEMS coordinated and is indeed only in need of a little encouragement here and there by a small number of folks dropping the info in the right ears to perpetuate.

But in this case add BILLIONS of simoleons to that and folks worried that if they don't get on board there will literally be a takeover by reptilian demons from planet X bent on global enslavement.

That this "conspiracy" is possibly being most encouraged by people who think that they serve reptilian demons from planet X bent on global enslavement is merely one more freakish irony in a world of freakish ironies.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 12:09:15 PM
...And that's another election on the way.

The UK was upset at not being allowed to make stupid decisions on an annual basis, apparently.

Result is a foregone conclusion, once again the UK leads the way in proving that your vote is less useless due FPTP.

The ultimate irony is May positioning herself as the brexit champion when around this time last year the silly bint was campaigning against exactly that.

I was joking about a move to Canada a while ago, that's not really a joke anymore. At this rate with this level of continual idiocy it's more about when.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on April 18, 2017, 12:27:05 PM
I'm really disappointed. My partner just shouted to me that Theresa May is going to the Poles, and I was all excited. But it is just the damnable POLLS again  :sad:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2017, 12:42:03 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 12:09:15 PM
...And that's another election on the way.

The UK was upset at not being allowed to make stupid decisions on an annual basis, apparently.

Result is a foregone conclusion, once again the UK leads the way in proving that your vote is less useless due FPTP.

The ultimate irony is May positioning herself as the brexit champion when around this time last year the silly bint was campaigning against exactly that.

With people like May and the fat orange yank twat it's becoming increasingly obvious that the people doing these jobs are more into the idea of being the most important and powerful celebrity in the world, rather than actually taking on the duties and responsibilities of being the boss of a formerly significant industrialised nation.

May is the classic - Johnny Rotten hawking whichever brand of margarine stumps up the most cash whereas Trump comes across as someone who never really thought through the fact that president would be a job that involved actually doing something beyond just being the powerfullest and importantest wanker in the world and grabbing all the pussy but the fact remains. Politicians aren't really governing any more, they're just grifting a fuck off big paycheck.

Mainly US and UK, right enough, I'm not talking about proper countries here.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 18, 2017, 01:22:57 PM
So she had what, 3, 4 years left in the term, why call an election if not that the Tories want to be out of power.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 01:33:15 PM
Quite the opposite, it pretty much guarantees them another 5 years only now they get to play the "we've got a mandate card".

Scottish/irish/welsh votes will be pretty much unchanged. Lib-dems have no hope after their coalition cock-up. Labour are still FUBAR. It's a pretty solid strategy to keep them in that way. Labour can't campaign against brexit and they haven't a hope in hell of winning any additional seats without doing so.

Let's put it another way, if there was an easy way to guarantee you'd keep your cushy job for another 5 years, would you do it? Because that's exactly what's happening here.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 18, 2017, 01:40:07 PM
Great, so she is buying the election when the opposition is in disarray. At the taxpayers expense.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 01:48:42 PM
Exactly. And you've put any opposition against you into a shitty position because they can't argue against it without losing all credibility. If you wait any longer the full brexit shitshow will be obvious and loss of power is assured at the next scheduled election.

Even if by some miracle she loses, brexit negotiations fall onto someone else, who will then inevitably fuck it up and you're back in power sharpish afterwards. 

From a game theory perspective, it's excellently played and exactly what I would do in that position. Waiting gives you no advantages and actually comes with multiple drawbacks.

QuotePoliticians aren't really governing any more, they're just grifting a fuck off big paycheck.

And we have a winner. You can take the cash prize or open the mystery box.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 02:35:00 PM
This has almost nothing to do with Brexit and everything to do with passing her domestic agenda by shutting down her opponents in the Tory Party (because if you were hoping for the opposition parties to do that, well  :lulz: ).

If this sounds familiar, it's because it's exactly the same reasoning that David Cameron used to put us in this current predicament.

Now, I did argue for a General Election...but that was last year, after May became leader of the Tory party.  At that time, my thinking was that making the GE be about Brexit - and having the different parties put forward their strategies, to be voted on.  Stay in the common market or not, approach to immigration etc.  But now?  Now it's just a blatant power grab, especially because in an unsure political climate, people are likely to favour the status quo over making any hard changes.  Just imagine if, somehow, Corbyn did become PM in June.  It would mean radically changing the terms on which Brexit is going to be negotiated.  People aren't going to go for that.

Which is exactly what May is counting on.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 03:00:07 PM
Not just the terms of the negotiations, but practically everyone and everything that has already been done to date. How much has actually been done is questionable but there will be a huge reluctance to replace anyone involved while the clock is now officially ticking.

The chances of corbyn getting anywhere are around the same as Rolf Harris. Which in around 8 weeks leads to further in-fighting for a few months (at least) leadership challenges, etc. So any domestic changes will pass totally unchallenged for the best part of the year. And that's an optimistic view.

The funniest prospect that I can see is another potential coalition government. While unlikely, it would just add to the overall fuckups and inevitable complications.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 03:03:56 PM
In fact, fuck it, calling it now - Next government is a coalition of SNP and the Tories. Before you say how stupid that is, just consider what the lib-dems did for 30 pieces of silver. Now look me in the eye and tell me that they wouldn't do exactly the same thing in a heartbeat if given the slightest chance.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 03:47:14 PM
The SNP would fuck the entire country over on the promise on a referendum. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 18, 2017, 08:01:57 PM
Hey now, that's not fair. By which I mean you're being far too kind.

The SNP would fuck the country over for a packet of sweets and feeling of momentary relevance.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 08:31:16 PM
Politico poll is projecting a slaughter for Labour atm.  70 lost seats, with the Tories picking up 69.  That would give the Tories a majority of 150 seats.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 08:42:10 PM
Oh ho ho!

Crown Prosecution Service has just confirmed it intends to charge 30 people over the Tory election expenses scandal.  This could get interesting
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 18, 2017, 09:23:29 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 18, 2017, 08:42:10 PM
Oh ho ho!

Crown Prosecution Service has just confirmed it intends to charge 30 people over the Tory election expenses scandal.  This could get interesting

What are the implications of this?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 10:05:53 PM
Scandal for the Tories.  Maybe a fine.  But mostly scandal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2017, 11:24:58 PM
On the plus side, we will get treated to the spectacle of Theresa May being utterly skewered in the debates.  Corbyn tends not to go for gotcha moments, but Farron and rather formidable Sturgeon will in his absence.  My email from the Lib Dems also suggests they are going scorched earth, to try and make this Brexitref 2.0 - a good tactic for them, but possibly not for the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 12:58:40 AM
The debates may is apparently not bothering with you mean? Makes a lot more sense why now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 19, 2017, 01:34:44 AM
Hah, what a coward.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 19, 2017, 08:49:47 AM
And I thought 2017 couldn't get any more fun  :sad:

If the debates go ahead and May isn't there that wouldn't be a good look either though right? I guess she's gotta weigh up how much of a savaging she's gonna get vs. not putting her point across at all.

Pretty sure the Tories don't give a damn about scandal any more.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2017, 10:06:43 AM
Quote from: Xaz on April 19, 2017, 08:49:47 AM
And I thought 2017 couldn't get any more fun  :sad:

If the debates go ahead and May isn't there that wouldn't be a good look either though right? I guess she's gotta weigh up how much of a savaging she's gonna get vs. not putting her point across at all.

Pretty sure the Tories don't give a damn about scandal any more.

Why should they? The electorate are conditioned to accept pretty much any shit their rulers want to throw them. Same as it was in the dark ages only now the peasants are much more docile and accepting of the situation. Revolution is less likely and any glimmer of activism can be deflected with a keypress. What's changed in the last couple of hundred years? Only one thing - propaganda is now 110% effective. Human beings are programmable drones. They always were but it took a while to figure out how to hack them. The exceptions to this rule? Outnumbered millions to one. You want to stand up and do something to change the situation? Good luck. Government inc. will flick a switch and the ten thousand people nearest you will start attacking you with clubs.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 10:24:50 AM
Let's put it another way: they simply don't need to. Murdoch press and others are rabidly pro Tory so as at a bare minimum the sun, express, times and mail will either ignore or mock the debates with no torys present. The BBC will include their comments on any debate without hard questions due to the non biased stance.

Why bother turning up to something that you win easily by not attending? Much more cost effective to let your rivals beat each other up and let mass media make all your points for you.

The seriously concerning thing is this effectively turns the UK into a one party state for the next 5 years at a minimum. The only real opposition will be from the snp and that can be dismissed with ease.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 19, 2017, 10:31:43 AM
I actually can't even tell if May has a point to make.

Seems like she wants bigger 'mandate' for Brexit process without all that pesky opposition. I wonder what kind of crazy shit she's planning that she has got to burn away the last vestiges of the left before she carries it out.

I wonder what crazy shit she's doing right now while we're all distracted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 12:25:48 PM
If it's any consolation, probably less than you may think.

Why be sneaky when you can just wait 8 weeks and get applauded for the exact same shit?

Anyone making predictions for the coming of Austerity 3.0? I'm guessing the NHS sold wholesale to US firms to begin with. They're already talking about selling the RBS stake "at a loss". I assume that will get sold to the usual suspects. Crapita and G4S are probably in line for some very tasty contracts in the near future too, as usual.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 19, 2017, 12:44:16 PM
The RBS thing gives me a bit of schadenfreude, over the last few months there have been a contingent pushing that Ireland should rejoin the commonwealth and that as a Independent nation state we had a failed banking sector because we had to nationalise AIB by 96%, the states stake is going up for IPO in the next few months, expecting a profit of about 30% on it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2017, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 12:25:48 PM
If it's any consolation, probably less than you may think.

Why be sneaky when you can just wait 8 weeks and get applauded for the exact same shit?

Anyone making predictions for the coming of Austerity 3.0? I'm guessing the NHS sold wholesale to US firms to begin with. They're already talking about selling the RBS stake "at a loss". I assume that will get sold to the usual suspects. Crapita and G4S are probably in line for some very tasty contracts in the near future too, as usual.

I expect Austerity 3.0 will be fairly - final solution. The rest depends what they're planning on doing with this island. Could be a manufacturing base, could be a tax haven, maybe a weapons platform. Here's the thing, unless they plump for a longpig hunting reserve, none of the options require anything like 64million-odd well fed primates. They used to need the working class, now they're just a drain on resources. Pretty soon they'll be an eyesore and that's when the cleanup crews arrive.

Dumb fucks will be begging for it, even as they're being shovelled into gas chambers. I'll be too busy laughing at them to have any sympathy. Or, hey, maybe I'm wrong and the future isn't going to happen here, in which case it'll be even funnier to watch everything revert to the stone age while everybody starves to death.

Remember back when that stinking dead cunt thatcher had to deal with millions of unemployed back in the 80's? Police state? Ghettos? These new tories will soon have a lot more than a paltry couple of million on their plate. This does not end well for the masses. At this point, as far as I'm concerned, they deserve it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 01:07:05 PM
Oh it's much funnier than that.

Taking Unemployment as an example, how do you get this down to record lows? Well to start with, you close all the job centres you can. People still need to turn up in person to a job centre that is now 20+ miles away in order to claim benefits. Can't afford to travel there? Well that's a sanction (read - Penalty charge) for you and removal of any/all remaining benefits. You're not entitled to any support and you no longer factor into unemployed statistics as you've been kicked off it and are just a lazy parasite, not someone who's in a terminally fucked situation. Catch 22 had nothing on the kinds of statistical manipulation you'll be seeing over the next couple of years.

The end result here is going to be social unrest on a national scale. Food riots are a very strong possibility at the moment. The main question is where and when. I wouldn't rule out seeing a few affluent people killed and cannibalised at this rate. Hell, this should probably happen anyway just to send the appropriate message to the rest of the job creators.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 01:09:49 PM
Quote from: Faust on April 19, 2017, 12:44:16 PM
The RBS thing gives me a bit of schadenfreude, over the last few months there have been a contingent pushing that Ireland should rejoin the commonwealth and that as a Independent nation state we had a failed banking sector because we had to nationalise AIB by 96%, the states stake is going up for IPO in the next few months, expecting a profit of about 30% on it.

That's worth watching. I'd expect that 30% to be slowly eroded down to fuck all as the IPO date approaches.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2017, 01:28:56 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 01:07:05 PM
Oh it's much funnier than that.

Taking Unemployment as an example, how do you get this down to record lows? Well to start with, you close all the job centres you can. People still need to turn up in person to a job centre that is now 20+ miles away in order to claim benefits. Can't afford to travel there? Well that's a sanction (read - Penalty charge) for you and removal of any/all remaining benefits. You're not entitled to any support and you no longer factor into unemployed statistics as you've been kicked off it and are just a lazy parasite, not someone who's in a terminally fucked situation. Catch 22 had nothing on the kinds of statistical manipulation you'll be seeing over the next couple of years.

The end result here is going to be social unrest on a national scale. Food riots are a very strong possibility at the moment. The main question is where and when. I wouldn't rule out seeing a few affluent people killed and cannibalised at this rate. Hell, this should probably happen anyway just to send the appropriate message to the rest of the job creators.

Optimist. Hey, I'd like to see the underdogs bite back as much as the next guy but there are way to many false divisions being driven through the group. If there's food riots, it'll be those benefit scrounging unemployed fucks to blame. Expect public sympathy to back the good old boys in black and blue, defending public order against the subhuman scumbags and immigrants. People actually sympathised with the miners and they got away with billyclubbing them to a pulp. Everybody hates the unemployed already. The teevee is pumping out scrounging bastard propaganda 24/7. I expect in a few years time Ant and Dec will be holding phone-in competitions for a member of the public to press the dronestrike button.

When unemployment is up to 30% it'll still be that 30% that's to blame  for all societies woes and joe public will be screaming for deathcamps. That's how unemployment gets down to zero - we kill them. Eventually the population will level off at a couple of hundred rich wankers.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 19, 2017, 01:38:27 PM
I'd like to argue with you and prove you wrong.

I'd like to do that, but I really can't.

I'm seriously looking at the emigration process to Canada now. I've got a wife and child to consider now and there's literally no (positive) future here. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2017, 01:58:33 PM
Canada would be an appealing option if not for the fact that the US is right next door. Pretty sure Canada is going to cop more than a bit of fallout when that shit implodes. All my exit strategies involve remote places. Far enough away from population centers to hole up and avoid the flak but close enough to pay the odd scavenging visit.

Best case scenario - the dust settles and some progressive liberal fucks have pwnt the global economy and are handing out UBI to all comers.

Worst case - who fucking cares, it's all over at that point
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 19, 2017, 10:50:53 PM
I've heard...rumours...that May wants to pass a far more centralizing agenda for Parliament and the Prime Minister.  Exactly what this entails isn't clear, only that once Brexit is done with, there will still be 3 years on Parliament's shelf life, giving them a huge amount of say over the constitutional arrangements going forward.  Maybe...reducing the powers of Scottish Parliament, to offsee IndyRef 2.0?  Depends how stupid Tories drunk on power with no viable opposition intend to be, but overseas precedents are...unsettling.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 21, 2017, 11:23:13 AM
If the other parties can by some fluke claw back enough seats to remove the Conservative majority (which is... 17 seats? Seems like a bit of a stretch) what would happen? Coalition?

Seems like this was a really bad time to call a GE - everyone is concentrating on campaigning instead of Brexit. If the Tories gain seats that's probably good for them but not for anyone else. If there is some sort of hung parliament then there will be even less consensus on how we should go about leaving the EU.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 21, 2017, 11:45:42 AM
I don't think anyone even wants to form a coalition with the Tories.  The Lib Dems are making this entire campaign about Brexit - if they signed up with the Tories again, the party would collapse from the sheer hypocrisy.  The SNP...would demand IndyRef 2.0, and the Tories wont give it to them.  UKIP is done.  None of the Irish parties want hard Brexit.  The Greens? Hahahahaha.

In that very unlikely event, the Tories would have to rule as a minority government.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 21, 2017, 11:56:10 AM
Can we hope for The Grand Coalition of Fuck The Tories?
Sinn Fienn +ulster unionists + SNP + Libdems + labour + greens for government, Jeremy Corben for PM
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 21, 2017, 11:58:02 AM
Corbyn ruled it out, like the dingbat he is.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 21, 2017, 08:59:35 PM
"(No) power at any cost" is apparently labours campaign slogan.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 22, 2017, 10:28:58 AM
"Tories have power, therefore power is bad.  The only way to remain virtuous is to eschew all attempts at power and sniff your own farts for all eternity." - the Labour Party 2017 manifesto, or it may as well be.

Like, I get the sentiment of not wanting to play gotcha politics etc which Corbyn espouses.  I'm very sympathetic to it.  But you're not going to get that kind of political culture overnight, and you're in a far better place to deliver it with an iron-clad Labour majority in the Commons than you are with your own party mounting abortive coup attempts against you every 6 months and you're stuck fending off the Lib Dems (of all fucking people). 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 25, 2017, 07:45:53 PM
I see the anti Lib Dem strategy is "Tim Farron hates Teh Ghey (maybe)".  Even though he doesn't, and even if he did, he's already said his personal opinion doesn't reflect the party's longstanding commitment to LGBT rights.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 25, 2017, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 25, 2017, 07:45:53 PM
I see the anti Lib Dem strategy is "Tim Farron hates Teh Ghey (maybe)".  Even though he doesn't, and even if he did, he's already said his personal opinion doesn't reflect the party's longstanding commitment to LGBT rights.

Someone's bothering to come up with an anti-lib-dem strategy? That's a colossal waste of resources. They are their own anti strategy.

Last story I saw on them was "We're up to 100K members". Which is almost enough to win a seat if they are all in the same location. Which they aren't. So it amounts to "100K people have wasted their own money and can be safely ignored".


In related news, Blair surfaced again to encourage strategic voting against the tories. If that doesn't seal a tory landslide I don't know what will.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 25, 2017, 10:17:57 PM
Presumably the idea is use their claim to being the anti-Brexit party "seriously", thrash the Dems and then claim it's a mandate for Brexit because if people were seriously against it, the Lib Dems would've won big.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 25, 2017, 10:44:11 PM
That makes a disturbing degree of sense. Particularly when the biggest lib-dem win ever was still pathetically small. Beating up the weak to show how powerful and dominant you are pretty much summarises the typical tory style of government.

So this is how the UK becomes a one party state. The left becomes ideologically the same as the right with different language and then just allows itself to implode while blaming everyone else.

My timescale for getting the fuck out of here just kicked up a notch. You know, while we still can.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 29, 2017, 07:58:58 PM
The Ho Ho continues. The eu has sent out initial bargaining points to which the UK would be smart to agree to as they are pretty much reasonable and asking the reverse would be an easy win for all concerned.

Needless to say, this is being touted as further examples of the eu mafia acting like some kind of club that only wants to protect its own members interests. How very unreasonable.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 29, 2017, 09:18:48 PM
The only element of the EU's bargaining stance that worries me is that they wont negotiate a trade deal until a separation deal is made.

That could very easily see the clock run out on the UK's EU membership without a replacement EU trade deal in place (these things take years to negotiate).  And in the interim, this would mean reverting to the WTO rules, aka "prices go up on everything and we're all fucked".

I expected them to take this stance, because it hurts us more than it hurts the EU, but I can't say I'm happy about being right.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 01, 2017, 06:41:02 PM
The Ho Ho continues with the resurrection of Blair.

It's times like these where I think about a crowd sourcing platform for assassinations.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 01, 2017, 09:28:09 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 01, 2017, 06:41:02 PM
The Ho Ho continues with the resurrection of Blair.

It's times like these where I think about a crowd sourcing platform for assassinations.
:horrormirth:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 01, 2017, 10:48:43 PM
The leaks on the Junker/May meeting (most likely by the commission themselves which is bad form) is a hard read

https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/858810953353367552

I'd take a lot of that with a pinch of salt, it's the start of a negotiating process and both sides were always going to overstate the case, the interesting one is that the EU won't make any trade agreements unless the UK pays all dues, which of course was the fire that Farage/Boris used to rally voters for Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 02, 2017, 01:04:06 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 01, 2017, 06:41:02 PM
The Ho Ho continues with the resurrection of Blair.

It's times like these where I think about a crowd sourcing platform for assassinations.

Is it bad that I kinda miss Blair?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 02, 2017, 03:26:00 AM
Blair's evil looks fantastically competent compared to the last three shitshows who have been PM.

He was almost like walking proof of the "Lyndon Johnson liberal hawk" school of political thought, which says its possible to have successful welfare measures at home, so long as you wage deranged, pointless wars abroad to offset right-wing criticism.  The NHS was more or less funded, as were the schools (neither of which are now), and we actually had real influence in Europe (lololololol).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 02, 2017, 03:27:29 AM
Quote from: Faust on May 01, 2017, 10:48:43 PM
The leaks on the Junker/May meeting (most likely by the commission themselves which is bad form) is a hard read

https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/858810953353367552

I'd take a lot of that with a pinch of salt, it's the start of a negotiating process and both sides were always going to overstate the case, the interesting one is that the EU won't make any trade agreements unless the UK pays all dues, which of course was the fire that Farage/Boris used to rally voters for Brexit.

May is denying it, but I have to admit, it reads as being pretty accurate.  May is incredibly weak on foreign affairs - her lack of knowledge almost certainly means she is underestimating the difficulty of extracting the UK from the EU, and if she's treating the civil service like the press...well, I can see why no-one would be able to tell her otherwise.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 02, 2017, 09:31:22 AM
'Nobody knew that health care Brexit could be so complicated'  :horrormirth:
no wonder she invited agent orange over for some bells and whistles with elizabeth windsor; she's apparently as stupid and arrogant as he is
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2017, 12:40:00 AM
https://www.ft.com/content/cc7eed42-2f49-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

QuoteFollowing direct requests from several member states, EU negotiators have revised their initial calculations to maximise the liabilities Britain is asked to cover, including post-Brexit farm payments and EU administration fees in 2019 and 2020.

Although over coming decades Britain's net bill would be lower than the €100bn upfront settlement, the more stringent approach to Britain's outstanding obligations significantly increases the estimated €60bn charge mentioned by Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2017, 12:43:32 AM
Meanwhile... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39784170#

QuoteTheresa May says she will be a "bloody difficult woman" towards European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker during Brexit talks.

The PM revived a line used during her Tory leadership campaign to respond to claims the two clashed over dinner.

She also declined to commit to settling the issue of expats' rights by June.

EU sources claim UK misunderstanding of the talks process, and ignorance about how Brussels works, could lead to no deal being agreed on the UK's exit.

But STRONG AND STABLE amirite?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 02:04:18 AM
Astounding. "No deal" is pretty much inevitable now.  Cue 2 years of being told why this is better than the existing arrangements.

This is like bluffing at poker when you have a hand of shit and your opponent has openly shown a royal flush and is asking you nicely not to give them any more money because you can't fucking win. May and Co seem to genuinely believe that the UK is somehow more important than 27 other countries combined and the inevitable results will not be pretty.

In totally unrelated news, I'm trying to talk Carlos the jackal into a patreon deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2017, 02:10:44 AM
It's going to be a clusterfuck.  A strong and stable clusterfuck, if that's any consolation.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 07:25:43 AM
Every time I hear "Strong and stable"
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/9e/9e8779da00b38a07421df18f110a832e2e6caba060cec6e01bad041d4f2f21a3.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 09:51:50 AM
It's all relative really. While the reality is that another conservative government will be as strong and stable as this:
(https://i.giphy.com/Z2PT0mBoPFniw.gif)
And we know that's being kind to them.

The vast majority of the population have been convinced that Corbyn is literally Satan. So it just becomes a crappy PR exercise convincing the faithful that May is actually the reincarnation of thatcher come to save us all from the horrors of Europe.

There was a RAW quote along the lines of "The left is just as robotic as the right". The current reality seems to be that the left is functionally identical to the right so regardless of what you vote for you will still get a heaping pile of shit shovelled in your general direction.   
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 10:11:24 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39789903

QuoteThe UK will not pay a £84.6bn "divorce bill" to leave the EU, Brexit Secretary David Davis has insisted.

QuoteVarious figures had been knocking around, he said, but asked directly whether a figure of £84.6bn or €100bn - was acceptable, he replied: "We will not be paying €100bn."

Taking bets on the final figure. £99 Billion quite likely. 120+ very much in the realms of possibility given how useless the people involved on the UK side are.



Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 03, 2017, 11:04:03 AM
Isn't closing off debt owed to the EU and getting a proper trade agreement a way cheaper option? I mean this way the valiant Tories can look like they fearlessly stared down the EU, but in WTO rules (21% Import, 21% Export) that's going to rack up to a lot more then 100B, It will probably exceed that in the first six months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 12:31:45 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 09:51:50 AM

The vast majority of the population have been convinced that Corbyn is literally Satan. So it just becomes a crappy PR exercise convincing the faithful that May is actually the reincarnation of thatcher come to save us all from the horrors of Europe.


Corbyn has that spineless schoolteacher affectation so popular amongst left wingers, spouting condescending "reasonableness" all over the place which is exactly the kind of thing that makes him so easy for the right to hate. The right know how things work in the "real world" and sometimes you just have to don a black shirt and gas a few eggs. The irony is that the "real world" is only like that cos the right wing make it like that with their knuckle dragging retarded shit making a mess all over the place.

I aint throwing my towel in with the left, tho. They sound good on paper but in practice they're just too easy to hate. They wear fucking woolen tanktops without a hint of irony and their ideas are all based on some pie in the sky bullshit that requires all the primates to act like rational conscious entities at all times. Shit, if your masterplan only requires a tiny minority to act like rational conscious entities even for a split second I'm going to call you a fucking idiot destined for failsville.

And then there's the total fuckhead fringe movements. Greens, Libdems, Pirate Party...

These are the choices I'm presented with and then told my vote is important. Au contraire democracy fanboy, I'm pretty sure I get to watch this shithole country burn to the ground regardless of how or even if I choose to vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 12:51:22 PM
Quote from: Faust on May 03, 2017, 11:04:03 AM
Isn't closing off debt owed to the EU and getting a proper trade agreement a way cheaper option? I mean this way the valiant Tories can look like they fearlessly stared down the EU, but in WTO rules (21% Import, 21% Export) that's going to rack up to a lot more then 100B, It will probably exceed that in the first six months.

You're using common sense and logic here. Stop that. There is no place here for such things anymore.

Any concessions from the UK to the EU, regardless of what they actually are will be met with howls of disdain from the usual suspects who have now been given enough media attention to start having delusions of relevance. There is a not insignificant number of people who think that farage for instance, is relevant and worth listening to.

Whoever is involved in the negotiations from the UK side can't win. It's impossible. So what do you do when you're playing a game you can't win? Well, think about the last time you played monopoly and there was one person who was clearly going to win. But you didn't like that. So you draw it out for as long as possible hoping for either an incredibly improbable series of dice rolls while hoping the winner will just say fuck it and walk away. Leaving you as the "winner" despite you losing by any measure.

There will also come a point when the negotiators realise that a trade deal cannot be reached within the timescale allowed. This impacts the UK far more than the EU. The UK has every reason to push for one quickly, the EU has no incentive to do so. If I were negotiating for the EU I'd spend a lot of time looking at my watch and giving a slow countdown until the realisation of "you're fucked" starts setting in. Then let the idiots across the table try and appease me by offering whatever they can for a crumb to take back to the PM.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 01:16:54 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 12:31:45 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 09:51:50 AM

The vast majority of the population have been convinced that Corbyn is literally Satan. So it just becomes a crappy PR exercise convincing the faithful that May is actually the reincarnation of thatcher come to save us all from the horrors of Europe.


Corbyn has that spineless schoolteacher affectation so popular amongst left wingers, spouting condescending "reasonableness" all over the place which is exactly the kind of thing that makes him so easy for the right to hate. The right know how things work in the "real world" and sometimes you just have to don a black shirt and gas a few eggs. The irony is that the "real world" is only like that cos the right wing make it like that with their knuckle dragging retarded shit making a mess all over the place.

I aint throwing my towel in with the left, tho. They sound good on paper but in practice they're just too easy to hate. They wear fucking woolen tanktops without a hint of irony and their ideas are all based on some pie in the sky bullshit that requires all the primates to act like rational conscious entities at all times. Shit, if your masterplan only requires a tiny minority to act like rational conscious entities even for a split second I'm going to call you a fucking idiot destined for failsville.

And then there's the total fuckhead fringe movements. Greens, Libdems, Pirate Party...

These are the choices I'm presented with and then told my vote is important. Au contraire democracy fanboy, I'm pretty sure I get to watch this shithole country burn to the ground regardless of how or even if I choose to vote.

Here's what annoys the tits off of me: For the "business party" it's maddening how little actual business experience the whole bunch of muppets seem to actually have. I've been in many, many contract negotiations from both sides. Sometimes, a deal is just not possible. The client wants you to do the exact same job for 30% less for instance. Or they will use someone else. Fine, thanks, fuck you and I'm out. Sometimes a single line of text in a 50+ page document becomes a point of contention and you'll both spend half a day re-wording it until you get something you both agree on which is often the exact same thing as what you fucking started with. Perhaps with a quick caveat penned in underneath.

But again, sometimes, a deal is just not possible. One party wants something that the other just can't stomach. There's a stack of reasons why: Cost, Timescale, Bribes, lack of experience, not wanting to give another contract to the same firm as this means that no-one else can possibly get the required experience, the list is practically fucking endless. And all of these can easily cause one side to just say "Thank you, I'm going to fuck off now because this is a waste of time and going nowhere". And that's when you're both starting off on friendly terms and want it to work.

Now compare this to the EU deals. Vastly more complex than anything I have dealt with. Pitfalls I can't even think about. Problems you can't even know about until you're deep into it. More paper than a small forest will produce. Starting from a position of mutual disdain. Made worse by a population of idiots who consider any concessions an unforgivable weakness and anything gained as not enough.

How long before it all falls to shit and "no deal" becomes the inevitable result? I'd guess around the new year. Long enough to make a good show of it and enough time to let the papers build themselves into frenzy about how unfair it all is for the poor old UK. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 03, 2017, 01:22:30 PM
Shouldn't we also be thinking about setting up trade deals with all the other non-EU entities in the world at some point?

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 01:46:02 PM
Quote from: Xaz on May 03, 2017, 01:22:30 PM
Shouldn't we also be thinking about setting up trade deals with all the other non-EU entities in the world at some point?

Oh yes. And that's where another level of fun comes in.

China will be kind of important as they've got a big stake in power generation here, among other things.

Various middle eastern nations will be expecting arms shipments, as will various african nations.

The USA will be expecting some kind of super, very very good deal. Probably just give them the NHS kind of deal.

Brazil would be good to have an arrangement with, as would argentina but that may cost the falklands. Which isn't too bad, as spain will have already taken Gibraltar back.

Japan and a number of other nations in the far east would be good. So would India. Russia would also be wise.


The problem is, there's barely enough people to handle the EU crap. Certainly far fewer competent people than should be involved too. So either you split the competence between 100+ other nations working on individual deals, do one deal at a time with a "competent" (and I use that term very loosely) team or draft in a bunch of other people who have no idea what they're doing and get them to look busy. The only plausible results are shoddy deals done quickly for PR purposes, probably with very dodgy nations or a never-ending bureaucratic cycle that takes years to make any progress whatsoever.

This is part of the whole clusterfuck, no-one is really able to admit the scale of the undertaking here. Sisyphus would look at this task and think it's excessive.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 02:31:23 PM
What we're dealing with here is ego. On a national scale. Britain, as a nation, seems to think it's something other than the shrivelled up husk of a failed empire with very little to offer an would be partner other than some tax breaks. Actually, since Brexit the tax breaks are mostly off the menu and we'll no doubt see them morph over time into the kind of third world exploitation befitting our financial and political standing.

By 2025 China may well be building residential sweat shops over here but that's only if 3d printing doesn't eat distributed manufacturing in the meantime. If it does then we'll be a footnote in some xmas appeal for the starving xenophobic children.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2017, 06:15:20 PM
(https://memecrunch.com/meme/26VDX/joker-here-we-go/image.png)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353

QuoteTheresa May has accused European politicians of making "threats" against Britain to try to influence the general election result.

The PM launched a stinging attack on the "bureaucrats of Brussels" in a speech outside 10 Downing Street after meeting the Queen.

She said some in Brussels wanted Brexit talks to fail.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said she was "playing party games with Brexit" to try to win the general election.

Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said it was "irresponsible" of her to "poison" the atmosphere with the EU.

And a senior EU source told the BBC the PM's suggestion that officials were trying to affect the election result was "pure fantasy".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 08:50:39 PM
My headlines time machine is a bit iffy, but it's giving curious results:

"Farage finds shit in own pantaloons, 'clearly the work of EU bureaucrats'"

"May promises land of milk and honey inevitable regardless of deal"

"Corbyn preforms black masses 'all the time' says Deputy"

"May causes house prices to raise due to magic".

"Johnson nails deals with short fellows and chupacabras".

"Juncker asks UK to take process seriously for five minutes".

"Farage still unable to figure out who keeps shitting in his pants".

"EU ungrateful for all assistance given during WW2".

"May: No deal strategy worked for Edmonds show, it's the best move now".

"Border chaos as Ex-pats returned to UK".

"EU Nazis cause house prices to crash".

"Proposals to block channel tunnel considered, race is on to be the first side to start".



I have no idea why I bought this thing.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 09:25:26 PM
Additional HO HO:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/02/news/brexit-uk-power-electricity-nuclear/index.html

QuoteU.K. lawmakers have warned that plans to exit the European Union pose a major threat to the country's power supplies and nuclear industry.
"The continued operations of the U.K. nuclear industry are at risk," said Iain Wright, head of a cross-party committee that published its findings on Tuesday. "Ministers must act as urgently as possible."
The committee warned that nuclear power plants -- which generate 20% of the country's electricity -- could be forced to be shut down if Britain leaves the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom). Consumers could also face much higher energy costs.

QuotePrime Minister Theresa May insists that Britain will drop its membership in Euratom because of Brexit. The regulator is an EU institution, and it is subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) -- an arrangement that May will not tolerate.
The prime minister's position puts the nuclear industry in a very tough spot: Two years is not enough time to build up a new regulatory body from scratch. And without oversight, critical functions including the transportation of nuclear material and fuel would stop.

It's not the first time I've mentioned potential problems with the power grid here. Fuckups increasingly look like a certainty as there are more than a few ongoing nuclear issues, particularly around transport in the UK.

For example, containers of nuclear materials are tested to be able to withstand drops of around 6M. Trains carrying materials pass through a number of bridges well in excess of 20M. No-one has bothered about fixing this slight problem in 20 years or so and I can't see anyone rushing to fix it anytime soon.

Coming soon, your very own Chernobyl. Sure to attract tourists from miles around. And citizens won't need to worry about keeping the lights on because they'll all glow in the fucking dark.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: POFP on May 03, 2017, 10:29:08 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 09:25:26 PM
Additional HO HO:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/02/news/brexit-uk-power-electricity-nuclear/index.html

QuoteU.K. lawmakers have warned that plans to exit the European Union pose a major threat to the country's power supplies and nuclear industry.
"The continued operations of the U.K. nuclear industry are at risk," said Iain Wright, head of a cross-party committee that published its findings on Tuesday. "Ministers must act as urgently as possible."
The committee warned that nuclear power plants -- which generate 20% of the country's electricity -- could be forced to be shut down if Britain leaves the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom). Consumers could also face much higher energy costs.

QuotePrime Minister Theresa May insists that Britain will drop its membership in Euratom because of Brexit. The regulator is an EU institution, and it is subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) -- an arrangement that May will not tolerate.
The prime minister's position puts the nuclear industry in a very tough spot: Two years is not enough time to build up a new regulatory body from scratch. And without oversight, critical functions including the transportation of nuclear material and fuel would stop.

It's not the first time I've mentioned potential problems with the power grid here. Fuckups increasingly look like a certainty as there are more than a few ongoing nuclear issues, particularly around transport in the UK.

For example, containers of nuclear materials are tested to be able to withstand drops of around 6M. Trains carrying materials pass through a number of bridges well in excess of 20M. No-one has bothered about fixing this slight problem in 20 years or so and I can't see anyone rushing to fix it anytime soon.

Coming soon, your very own Chernobyl. Sure to attract tourists from miles around. And citizens won't need to worry about keeping the lights on because they'll all glow in the fucking dark.

I feel like the potential for this situation should've been a MAJOR talking point during the debates leading up to the Brexit vote...

Was it not?  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 03, 2017, 10:38:30 PM
Quote from: PoFP on May 03, 2017, 10:29:08 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 09:25:26 PM
Additional HO HO:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/02/news/brexit-uk-power-electricity-nuclear/index.html

QuoteU.K. lawmakers have warned that plans to exit the European Union pose a major threat to the country's power supplies and nuclear industry.
"The continued operations of the U.K. nuclear industry are at risk," said Iain Wright, head of a cross-party committee that published its findings on Tuesday. "Ministers must act as urgently as possible."
The committee warned that nuclear power plants -- which generate 20% of the country's electricity -- could be forced to be shut down if Britain leaves the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom). Consumers could also face much higher energy costs.

QuotePrime Minister Theresa May insists that Britain will drop its membership in Euratom because of Brexit. The regulator is an EU institution, and it is subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) -- an arrangement that May will not tolerate.
The prime minister's position puts the nuclear industry in a very tough spot: Two years is not enough time to build up a new regulatory body from scratch. And without oversight, critical functions including the transportation of nuclear material and fuel would stop.

It's not the first time I've mentioned potential problems with the power grid here. Fuckups increasingly look like a certainty as there are more than a few ongoing nuclear issues, particularly around transport in the UK.

For example, containers of nuclear materials are tested to be able to withstand drops of around 6M. Trains carrying materials pass through a number of bridges well in excess of 20M. No-one has bothered about fixing this slight problem in 20 years or so and I can't see anyone rushing to fix it anytime soon.

Coming soon, your very own Chernobyl. Sure to attract tourists from miles around. And citizens won't need to worry about keeping the lights on because they'll all glow in the fucking dark.

I feel like the potential for this situation should've been a MAJOR talking point during the debates leading up to the Brexit vote...

Was it not?  :lulz:

Nope. Must. Secure. Borders.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 11:03:07 PM
Immigrants bad! EU Complex! Many people not white! Things today different than 1950 and I'm scared!

That's probably giving the leave argument more nuance than they've bothered with.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 03, 2017, 11:49:36 PM
The Nuclear issue is just the tip of the iceberg for the looming energy problems.
I know I know common sense, but I think everyone who can should know the following

The UK Imports energy daily to maintain grid stability (if you have a surplus you have a danger of the frequency going high and transformers blowing, if you have a shortage you have brownouts, not in and of themselves a huge problem apart from the impact on industry, day to day life, hospitals etc. Unless you get a blackout event. It takes a LONG time to get the grid back on line from a blackstart, you have to do it gradually in small sections around the country).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/0/why-the-uk-is-using-less-energy-but-importing-more---and-why-it/
"Imports accounted for just under 40 per cent of UK energy supplies last year"

The UK import prices are good currently, Europe uses collective bargaining to get oil cheaply by buying in large quantities for guaranteed amounts of time.
Even internally the North/South Interconnect allows The Republic to export our surplus wind on a daily basis now, with low costs.
In all likelihood leaving the collective bargaining pool is an attempt to pass the costs on to the industries that require it (someone is going to have to foot the bill). Food transport, airlines, Manufacturing are all going to be hit. Take this already grim example from Mini

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

They were already talking about the fears around sourcing parts that are completed on the continent, now imagine the shipping costs involved in moving those back and forth when it's not heavily subsidised.
China has already been devouring the steel industry in the UK, now imagine what they can do to the rest of the manufacturing industry as energy and transport costs raise.
It is now in China's interest to delay the development of the new plant as long as they can and deliberately foster an energy crisis in the UK.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 04, 2017, 12:15:05 AM
The beautiful thing from the chinese perspective is that they won't even have to pull anything crafty to delay shit, the government and local residents will do all the heavy lifting for them in delaying new builds. In the meantime, existing powerstations will get shut down or run into the ground until there's a serious incident causing unplanned shortages.

This is the hilarious thing about brexit, pick any product, service or peice of infrastructure you care to name and it goes to shit once you're out of the EU.

But hey, the UK will be free. Free to starve, in the cold and dark while the population turn into a chav version of mad max.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2017, 12:35:06 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 03, 2017, 11:03:07 PM
Immigrants bad! EU Complex! Many people not white! Things today different than 1950 and I'm scared!

That's probably giving the leave argument more nuance than they've bothered with.

Lets not forget the shape of bananas. Honestly, with an electorate this fucking retarded the only thing stopping the left from straight up taking control of their brains and working them with joypads is some irrelevant and self defeating sense of morality. They'll end up getting eaten by the shambling abominations they're insisting on treating like human beings.

I have 101 plans for the future at any given time. Right now 99.9% involve me watching the whole thing and laughing my tits off, with an icepick closeby just in case some poor deluded fuckhead mistakes me for a member of the other side.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 04, 2017, 10:07:00 AM
Right I know I've harped on about the NI issue, but this one is really annoying me. Milk and the best quality beef in Europe is one of Irelands popular exports

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/brexit-blockade-uk-giant-wants-ban-on-irish-meat-35679027.html

Ok fine, shots fired and it appears to be with a misguided attempt to support British trade. It will hurt the Irish economy, which sucks but we will get over it, probably have to sell it for less in mainland Europe.

Northern Ireland however appears to have hit bit this crazy decision. NI which is part of the UK, is now being told it cant sell to the rest of its own country because Brexit? I don't know if you know much about NI but its a grim fucking place, ship building industry there went the way of the Titanic, the weather is awful, they don't have an awful lot going for them... Apart from agriculture. I always take the nationalist rhetoric of the SNP with a touch of salt, but Sturgeon is right when she talks about England fucking the whole union under the bus.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 04, 2017, 03:46:05 PM
There's also the question of what Ireland would want to ban in return, if we were stupid enough to do this, and do we really want to go down the route of tit-for-tat trading disputes with our closest trading partners?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2017, 04:13:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 04, 2017, 03:46:05 PM
There's also the question of what Ireland would want to ban in return, if we were stupid enough to do this, and do we really want to go down the route of tit-for-tat trading disputes with our closest trading partners?

Um... hasn't that particular horse already left the station?  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 04, 2017, 04:32:40 PM
Listen, sorry to spring this on you, but we've discussed this amongst ourselves, we're going to take back our big brother winners. You can keep Jedward though
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 04, 2017, 09:20:01 PM
Thank fuck, I've already eaten one of them
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 04, 2017, 09:33:30 PM
Jed or Ward?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 05, 2017, 06:40:53 AM
Dunno. The one that tasted like chicken
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 09, 2017, 10:52:40 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

Interesting article. A little tinfoil here and there but looks like decent journalism. Some familiar names and links so I'm not inclined to dismiss it out of hand. Also bodes ill for the US/UK over the short to mid term future. Long term if it's not addressed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 10, 2017, 01:17:33 AM
I've been following this lead with some people for a while now.  It's pretty accurate, but there is also, interestingly, a significant amount of Ukrainian and Russian investor money floating around SCL and Cambridge Analytica.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 11, 2017, 10:08:00 AM
Good to know, will keep an eye on this.

Labour manifesto leaked, accusations it will "take us back to the 1970s". Tory objection seems to be this isn't far enough and we need to get back to the glory days of the 1870s.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 11, 2017, 01:29:02 PM
There's also rumours swirling that if Labour lose the election and Corbyn refuses to stand down, that moderate Labour MPs will split and create their own party.

Naturally, this is only being reported in the Tory press.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 11, 2017, 04:34:48 PM
BBC Reporting "Corbyn car ran over BBC guys foot".

When Hislop called out the bias a week or so ago it was amusing. Seeing stories like this appear makes it a little blatant. It's not rocket science to figure out how close the guy must have been standing for this to occur. I'm waiting for that to spiral in the next couple of days because it's obviously going to be touch and go about amputating the both legs by the time the usual rags have finished with it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 11, 2017, 05:49:12 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 11, 2017, 04:34:48 PM
BBC Reporting "Corbyn car ran over BBC guys foot".

When Hislop called out the bias a week or so ago it was amusing. Seeing stories like this appear makes it a little blatant. It's not rocket science to figure out how close the guy must have been standing for this to occur. I'm waiting for that to spiral in the next couple of days because it's obviously going to be touch and go about amputating the both legs by the time the usual rags have finished with it.

Wow, what a shame they don't give his policies such blanket coverage  :roll:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 11, 2017, 05:55:33 PM
May ran over the entire nation's foot.  But that's different.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 11, 2017, 06:14:07 PM
It felt more like a stab in the back to me. Slimy political animal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 11, 2017, 06:20:36 PM
Objection, it's closer to a stab in the face. It's not like she's ever pretended to be anything other than despicable.

Hislop bit for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9lmqEfvuGg
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 11, 2017, 10:08:34 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 11, 2017, 06:20:36 PM
Objection, it's closer to a stab in the face. It's not like she's ever pretended to be anything other than despicable.

I think her snide slap about people thinking of the Tories as the "Nasty Party" was an attempt to position herself on the more acceptable wing of that discussion. Sadly as soon as she got a sniff of power that was straight in the bin.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 12:58:19 AM
Now the BBC is asking if Corbyn is a pacifist. 

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 12, 2017, 01:08:12 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2017, 12:58:19 AM

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

mutter mutter zeitgeist mutter mutter
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2017, 02:05:53 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2017, 12:58:19 AM
Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

I bet the po'buckers ate that shit up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 12, 2017, 02:12:35 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2017, 02:05:53 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2017, 12:58:19 AM
Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

I bet the po'buckers ate that shit up.

Like your boy Donnie said - what's the point of having them if you don't use them? Am I right?
Made my gut curdle; she smirked while she said it
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 03:30:54 AM
I think she made moral imbecile Michael Fallon do the deed.  You know, the "really Christian" one (when he's not wolfing down free meals from the arms industry).

But anyway, yeah, Corbyn's a peacenik nutter, while May is a sober custodian of the nation.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 12, 2017, 10:06:03 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2017, 12:58:19 AM
Now the BBC is asking if Corbyn is a pacifist. 

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

So the prime minister is now a terrorist with a dirty bomb. The UK government is exactly what they've been warning us about for years. And here was me, the dumbass, thinking they were just making the shit up to freak us out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 11:44:10 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2017, 12:58:19 AM
Now the BBC is asking if Corbyn is a pacifist. 

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

I remember that. What's worse is that every other pm, including Thatcher, directed that there should be no retaliatory strikes in the event of a nuclear attack on the UK that resulted in a loss of command and control. Mainly because nuclear weapons are barbaric. Which leaves trident as an utterly pointless waste of resources.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 12, 2017, 03:57:36 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 11:44:10 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2017, 12:58:19 AM
Now the BBC is asking if Corbyn is a pacifist. 

Never mind Theresa May affirming a first strike nuclear policy, and thus batshit insane.

I remember that. What's worse is that every other pm, including Thatcher, directed that there should be no retaliatory strikes in the event of a nuclear attack on the UK that resulted in a loss of command and control. Mainly because nuclear weapons are barbaric. Which leaves trident as an utterly pointless waste of resources.

Yes, what is the point of having a weapon which you can't use? [/notTrump]
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 04:53:24 PM
As far as I can tell, trident serves the following purposes:

1 - Jobs in largely labour areas.(The main reason orbyn got so much grief from his own party is down to this)
2- Allows the UK to keep feeling important as a "nuclear power"
3 - Err, that's about it.

1 is a little silly as you could easily turn the workforce to other much more productive things at a fraction of the cost.

2 is pants on head retarded as there is nowhere on earth that you could justify deploying a nuclear strike at. Russia, China and North Korea are not awake at night in fear of 3 submarines. I would doubt that ISIS or similar even know about them and wouldn't give two shits about them either, even if they do. So who does it keep in line? Argentina? Pakistan? Iran? The EU? I'm seriously asking, what nation or group are they supposed to deter?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 12, 2017, 04:57:38 PM
B-b-but if we don't have them what's to stop other people using them on us?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 05:20:07 PM
Quote from: Xaz on May 12, 2017, 04:57:38 PM
B-b-but if we don't have them what's to stop other people using them on us?

Just the same thing that stops us using them really, you become an instant pariah to the rest of the world who no nation will deal with. Trade stops overnight, your population suffers and starves and a coup is about a week away.

Seriously, the only groups that would value having them are terrorists and even then they're useless without the infrastructure a nation state provides.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 12, 2017, 06:36:04 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 04:53:24 PM
As far as I can tell, trident serves the following purposes:

1 - Jobs in largely labour areas.(The main reason orbyn got so much grief from his own party is down to this)
2- Allows the UK to keep feeling important as a "nuclear power"
3 - Err, that's about it.

1 is a little silly as you could easily turn the workforce to other much more productive things at a fraction of the cost.

2 is pants on head retarded as there is nowhere on earth that you could justify deploying a nuclear strike at. Russia, China and North Korea are not awake at night in fear of 3 submarines. I would doubt that ISIS or similar even know about them and wouldn't give two shits about them either, even if they do. So who does it keep in line? Argentina? Pakistan? Iran? The EU? I'm seriously asking, what nation or group are they supposed to deter?

I think the historic answer to that has been "Anyone the Americans want us to deter", because it isn't as if we really have any genuine level of control over the damn things anyway.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 06:59:21 PM
As I recall, Corbyn made them fire towards the wrong continent because communism.

That's how it went, right?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2017, 07:15:19 PM
Nhs systems compromised by ransomware.

I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure the it contractor responsible for them is good old capita. It's their style of incompetence.

Being deadly serious, one of the parties should be campaigning to take away all government contracts from capita and g4s. Others too, but those two fuck up everything they touch with amazing consistency.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 10:16:37 PM
I'm not opposed per se to the UK having nuclear weapons.  However:

1) Its need to be actually independent from the USA.  We cannot trust America will remain our allies for forever.
2) the UK needs to adopt a minimal credibility, second strike nuclear doctrine.  In other words, it retains enough missiles to respond to any largescale WMD attack on the UK by another state, but only uses them in that scenario.  Our current strategic arsenal should be our actual arsenal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2017, 10:17:25 PM
NHS computer vulnerabilities were discovered in November.  Still not patched, obviously.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 14, 2017, 10:37:43 AM
The UK is truly divided. Not only are we not terribly 'united' anyway, being a cobbled together amalgam of four, yes four, nations into a land mass slightly smaller than Oregon but there is increasing exidence of the disturbing  divide that catapulted us into Brexit; the current exemplar of this being our relationship to the Eurovision Song Contest.

YouGov ran a poll on whether UK people wanted to leave the Eurovision Song Contest and the results were telling
Quote"Broadly speaking, the Brexit dividing line runs through the results. Those groups that were more likely to vote for Brexit were more likely to want to pull out of the Song Contest: 81% of those who intend to vote UKIP, 78% of 65+ year olds and 76% of Leave voters. Likewise, those groups most in favour of staying in Eurovision are those who intend to vote Liberal Democrat (70%), 18-24 year olds (69%) and Remain voters (65%)."

YouGov didn't ask the important underlying question of whether people wanted to leave the European Broadcasting Union but it would have been interesting to know since the EBU is the premier cheerleading group for public service broadcasting in a large part of the non-american world. [Yes Australia competes in Eurovision]. I would suggest that Brexit voters are likely to also be the sort of people who want to see the BBC turned into the Imperial Broadcasting Service, showing film of the coronation on loop, patronising documentaries of the happy, smiling,  faces of our colonial workforce [in their own damn countries, of course] and interminable re-runs of George V at the Delhi Durbar in 1911. Yeah, the thought of the IBS makes my bowel creep, too.

All of which, however interesting, is a pretext for this silly graphic that made me snirk this morning

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/goblinhill/EUROVISION%20tumblr_opwta2veLC1qc7o4to1_500_zpskw8rnamm.jpg) (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/goblinhill/media/EUROVISION%20tumblr_opwta2veLC1qc7o4to1_500_zpskw8rnamm.jpg.html)

and I can't even complain to my local MP because he is the Master of the Local hunt!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 14, 2017, 11:52:56 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2017, 10:17:25 PM
NHS computer vulnerabilities were discovered in November.  Still not patched, obviously.

Workaround found by random blogger. Not seen a single comment from hunt on the farce.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 15, 2017, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 14, 2017, 11:52:56 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 12, 2017, 10:17:25 PM
NHS computer vulnerabilities were discovered in November.  Still not patched, obviously.

Workaround found by random blogger. Not seen a single comment from hunt on the farce.

Hunt has been found and made to comment:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39918426

QuoteHealth Secretary Jeremy Hunt says it is "encouraging" there have not been any fresh attacks.
"We've not seen a second wave of attacks and the level of criminal activity is at the lower end of the range that we had anticipated," he said.

I'm kind of hoping someone launches another attack in the next day or so just to show this clown up. He's got literally no understanding of what occurred, why it occurred or why it might re-occur again in the near future. Small side bet on his family history being at least part ostrich.

What's really baffling is that this could have been spun a dozen different ways to say what you will do to improve the NHS against future problems but he can't even be bothered to do that. I assume the plan is along the lines of pretending that the only way to fix the problems is by shoving various bits of it into private hands.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2017, 06:06:08 AM
Government is clueless when it comes to cybersecurity.  Hunt is clueless when it comes to government, so he's twice as useless when it comes to cybersecurity.

Early indicators are North Korea may have something to do with WCry, which would make sense.  Aggressive infection doesn't matter when your country is largely cut off from the world and global economy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 16, 2017, 10:38:02 AM
There was apparently a fuck up in the code that would make it impossible to claim the funds or decrypt the data even if you were dumb enough to pay. NK would fit the bill there but I still doubt it. The chance of self infection is there and it could impact weapons development which I'm sure Nk would find to be an unacceptable risk.

Have a hunch it's a non state actor(s) fucking about. That said, the possible level of harm will be played up to put the fear of CYBER into the populace and justify throwing more cash at gchq and similar. Why fix a problem when you can spend far more on detection and workarounds after an issue appears?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 16, 2017, 11:32:10 AM
The ransomware part of the virus isn't new, a few variants originated in Romania, Ukraine  and Turkey. All they did was modify it slightly and use a Day 1 exploit (as it had been patched on a great many machines). In fact all they really did was take a publicised but recent exploit and apply existing malware... To great effect.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2017, 12:15:45 PM
Which is the worst part.  What if someone competent purchased something from the Equation Group/Shadow Brokers hack?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 16, 2017, 12:37:27 PM
Then you could have widespread intrusion on many many systems, that could passively spread without detection, potentially compromising a lot more then this attack. This was loud and quick and invoked a quick reaction, a poorly executed cash grab.

If someone had wanted to make something to give them access to information and control of the critical infrastructure of many countries on a long term basic (similar to how the FBI would have been utilising it), they could have. It's not outside the realms of possibility, that they could have done so already. It validates what Tim Cook was saying when apple refused to create a back door for the FBI, because this is exactly the scenario they described.

The good thing about this attack is that it has inspired a lot of even companies to update their old out of date systems which will close off many of these exploits and result in a safer web.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 16, 2017, 12:57:29 PM
Companies are one thing, institutions are quite another. How long do you think it will take the NHS to move on from XP? The procurement process alone will take months, if not years, regardless of how insecure the system may be in the interim. And that's just one, factor in the job centre systems, Immigration, DVLA, HMRC etc. etc. and you're looking at hundreds of systems at a minimum. Probably thousands if not tens of thousands.

It gets funnier when you start thinking about the total costs of doing this. The upgrade to something more secure is comparably cheap compared to the training costs involved in getting who the fuck knows how many people trained on something that isn't what they've been using for X years. I'd guess the training costs are an order of magnitude larger than the upgrade. Which have their own set of procurement processes which will take months, maybe years....

Which makes this a clusterfuck of unknown proportions as you get into the details. Whichever government is eventually formed now gets to deal with both the brexit crap and fallout and a huge list of additional unforeseen expenses at home to try and provide a veneer of security. Which will be inevitably compromised and the whole cycle starts up again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2017, 01:13:20 PM
Of course, it would help if anyone applied security patches regularly.  MS has done such a bad job in the past, with its patches breaking Windows and Office functionality that companies and government agencies alike purposefully ignore best practice and don't apply it until they test it themselves (and if anything happens in the meantime, they just cry "advanced persistent threat" and go about their business).  MS did release a critical security patch for this exploit back in March, but clearly a lot of companies did not see fit to apply it.

I did a sort review on WCry for the law firm I do contract work with, and it's a clusterfuck endemic to the IT security industry and government thinking about IT security. There's plenty of blame to go around, and believe me, they all deserve a fair share of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 16, 2017, 01:38:53 PM
Government systems are also (presumably) operating on bespoke software that may or may not work with newer versions of Windows, further complicating system upgrades.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2017, 03:05:12 PM
Indeed, which is why the government had a contract with Microsoft specifically for computer security updates.

Until Hunt cancelled it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 16, 2017, 03:16:30 PM
In fairness to MS they released a patch all the way back to XP for this one, first patch for XP in years. But yes, there are a worrying amount of systems running critical infrastructure that are on archaic systems, Or critical systems that only get updates periodically (quarterly or even annually is common enough to see for some big systems)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 16, 2017, 08:00:11 PM
Quote from: Faust on May 16, 2017, 03:16:30 PM
Or critical systems that only get updates periodically (quarterly or even annually is common enough to see for some big systems)

You only need to have been burned by one kamikaze MS update for that to seem a lot more reasonable than it might first sound. Anyone running XP as a daily driver, tho, pretty much deserves to spend their every waking hour staring at a ransomware prompt.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pæs on May 17, 2017, 08:17:06 AM
Risky Biz podcast has a good summary of WannaCry news, debunking some myths and collating some coverage.
https://risky.biz/RB455/

I haven't finished the episode yet, but I'm not expecting many inaccuracies from these two.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 21, 2017, 12:47:27 AM
Tory lead has halved since the publication of their shit-tastic manifesto.

Despite pulling out the big guns (IRA, MI5 surveillance!), Labour only trail the Tories by 9 points now. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 21, 2017, 01:05:02 AM
Wait, what? Been out of it for a couple of days, don't tell me the ira are supporting Labour and or hate corbyn too.

I suppose also add corbyn to the long, long list of "other politicians treated worse than idiot".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 21, 2017, 01:07:24 AM
No, Corbyn is soft on the IRA, soft on defence, so soft that MI5 had to watch him because of NATSHUNAL SECORITIES.  According to the Tories.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 21, 2017, 01:15:52 AM
Silly me. So "corbyn the ira sympathiser" is the new line, he? Seems like a little late for smears, shouldn't Murdoch have had that in hand months ago?

Apart from this seems to be manifesto nonsense. Leaving aside these are worthless documents whenever they are made as they're universally ignored after taking power, it does show how much of a shitshow this election is. The senile fuck that called it has taken weeks to produce one when it should have been available the day after. No costings from the Tories beyond "we're going to keep the eu rights bits we like and claim we are original". Speaks volumes for what can be expected post brexit crap, and probably before.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 21, 2017, 03:28:22 AM
The lack of costing is hilarious.  The NHS is going to get "more funding".  It's so fact-free that even the Daily Mail wouldn't allow it as an op-ed.

And I think it's going to have a snowball effect.  When you continually fuck up, despite having all the cards, and keep talking about "strong and stable", even an electorate as dimwitted as the British will notice there is a certain discrepancy between the rhetoric and the facts.  It may not result in a complete loss for the Tories, but anything less than a landslide victory that they were projected at the start of the election campaign is a massive failure on their part.  Even if the Labour Party only sustain their current popularity, May will only have 46 seat majority.  Hardly a mandate from the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 22, 2017, 04:09:51 PM
I'm starting to wonder if the Tories aren't purposefully trying to throw the election at this point. 

Step 1: introduce terrible social care policy that will negatively affect your key voters
Step 2: Declare that there is "no going back" on policy
Step 3: Go back on policy.
Step 4: Achieve all of this within 4 days, including a weekend.

I mean, it's either that or its gross incompetence, and either seems likely at this point.  Throw the election, let Labour (fail to) deal with Brexit, blame Labour for a thousand years for not getting a miracle deal like Theresa May would have (try to avoid laughing).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 22, 2017, 04:31:16 PM
There must be some members of the Conservative camp that are thinking a loss at this election would make a lot of their immediate problems someone else's.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 22, 2017, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 22, 2017, 04:09:51 PM
I'm starting to wonder if the Tories aren't purposefully trying to throw the election at this point. 

Step 1: introduce terrible social care policy that will negatively affect your key voters
Step 2: Declare that there is "no going back" on policy
Step 3: Go back on policy.
Step 4: Achieve all of this within 4 days, including a weekend.

I mean, it's either that or its gross incompetence, and either seems likely at this point.  Throw the election, let Labour (fail to) deal with Brexit, blame Labour for a thousand years for not getting a miracle deal like Theresa May would have (try to avoid laughing).

I've considered, the same thing, along the lines xaz reasoned. The only simple alternative I can see is sheer arrogance which is possible. If the Tories win with this kind of no effort and constant fuckups it'll be taken as a mandate to do whatever they please.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 23, 2017, 02:02:06 AM
"Terrorist" bomb blast suspected in Manchester, as a chunk of papers carry corbyn /ira taglines. You could get suspicious here, but it's likely another government fuck up, assuming Isis or related.

Not ruling out gas explosion yet either, because a lot of the infrastructure is old and fucked. There's also been a few big-ish demo jobs around the area which adds to the possibility.

Either way, not what you need in the middle of an election. May needs to pull the crazy racist "send em all back anywhere" shtick to try and pander what's left of the brexit vote. Not helped when a lot of these are pensioners who you've just shat on. Or to be fair, have no solid idea of how you'll be shitting, in what kind of quantities and from what heights.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on May 23, 2017, 02:06:25 AM
Apparently there was just a terrorist attack in England. What convenient timing, just in time for the election. This stinks of a false-flag operation (or maybe not stinks of but at this point it's definitely a possibility).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 23, 2017, 02:07:54 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on May 22, 2017, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 22, 2017, 04:09:51 PM
I'm starting to wonder if the Tories aren't purposefully trying to throw the election at this point. 

Step 1: introduce terrible social care policy that will negatively affect your key voters
Step 2: Declare that there is "no going back" on policy
Step 3: Go back on policy.
Step 4: Achieve all of this within 4 days, including a weekend.

I mean, it's either that or its gross incompetence, and either seems likely at this point.  Throw the election, let Labour (fail to) deal with Brexit, blame Labour for a thousand years for not getting a miracle deal like Theresa May would have (try to avoid laughing).

I've considered, the same thing, along the lines xaz reasoned. The only simple alternative I can see is sheer arrogance which is possible. If the Tories win with this kind of no effort and constant fuckups it'll be taken as a mandate to do whatever they please.

This is looking paralyzingly familiar.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2017, 07:22:57 AM
Looks like I went to sleep just before this terrorist attack happened.

Give me half an hour to have a coffee and hit up my usual suspects
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2017, 07:47:10 AM
No claims as of yet...Islamic State supporters are trolling on the usual channels, of course, but IS supporters are going to do that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 23, 2017, 09:39:55 AM
So apparently May took a bit of a beating on the Andrew Marr show. I didn't watch it but maybe i'll try and catch up this evening.

News of course overshadowed by the bombing. I wonder if that's gonna give a boost to the Tories. Not exactly coming off as strong or stable right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 23, 2017, 09:51:32 AM
That is the most worrying thing, the grandstanding boring old "Hard line against terrorism" that is now obligatory to trot out, is time consuming, it takes effort. I'm more scared of the outcome of a chaotic negotiation process, then in any terror attack.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2017, 01:52:35 PM
Indeed.

ISIS have claimed the attack...but their account is at odds with what the police have said.  It is possible that the police held back infomation, to allow them to sort real claims from the cranks.  And ISIS usually don't claim attacks without some evidence...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 23, 2017, 11:48:35 PM
Terror alert status now upgraded to super serial. Bomb appears to be "highly sophisticated" which probably means they got the gear from homebase instead of b&q.

ETA- military deployed to "key sites". Not seen anywhere particular disclosed but that would be an interesting list. Bet I can name at least 5 places, including 2 nuclear sites and 1 oil and gas site where there won't be any or any extra.

Which raises potentially very interesting questions when you talk about the financial aspect of any of these attacks.  Take insurance for instance. How much do you think you need to raise the premiums on somewhere before it makes more commercial sense to shut the place? A little bird told me that the hike to air products in the aftermath of France would have made it "economically unviable" to keep open, if it wasn't already shutting, and they've got a pretty decent safety record. Now look at a shitshow that's had an issue or two and you could easily be talking about a substantial facility or two being on very shaky ground. I would imagine this easily applies to the US and the rest of Europe and similar. The potential for one corporation to force another out of a country with proxy terror wars is probably closer than we'd like to think, assuming it's not already happening. I think it's definitely worth looking at very closely the next time it occurs in a corporate location.


Cain, help me out here, is there a reason beyond the spectacle side of things that make using nail bomb type shit preferable to other methods? I'm thinking you can mix up some nasty gases etc. From what you can get in practically any supermarket yet this doesn't seem to be a thing, thankfully.

On a slightly different note, anyone bothered with the marr interview yet? Worth watching?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 12:44:16 AM
Reliability.  Nails go everywhere - everyone gets hurt.  Gases disperse in open areas, where there are likely to be most targets.  Even in enclosed areas, they don't do very well (sarin attacks in Tokyo should have killed hundreds, not six people).  Technical expertise is above and beyond that for normal bomb-making, requires more exotic components likely to be on watch lists, and may be harder to hide on a person as well.  Cost factors in too, nails are cheap.  Don't even actually need nails, just a bunch of scrap metal stripped apart to ensure sharp edges will work fine.

Also, most terrorists are not very imaginative.  When they are...that's when you get Ramzi Yousef, or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 06:04:52 PM
Of course, it's worth noting that under May, 17,000 police officers have left the service, at least some of that due to budget cuts and the general Tory attitude towards the police.

We've seen this before, with the Environment Agency, "let's use the Army to plug the gap in vital services we've underfunded".  The Army itself is underfunded, btw, but since they have to follow legal orders...

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we wouldn't need to call in the Army, at a time when we're debating going back into Afghanistan in force, if we didn't cut police budgets.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 24, 2017, 06:15:49 PM
It seems like the Tories have been cutting everything that they possibly can which begs the question... where is the money going?

And if there simply is no money how are the other parties' more optimistic manifestos going to be funded?

edit: In trying to find my own answer to the above questions I have started (trying) to read the party manifestos.   :punchballs:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 06:25:08 PM
Allegedly it's going to pay off the national debt.

I'll let you look up those actual figures for a laugh.  What it's really going into is tax cuts.

Edit: the Labout and (IIRC) Lib Dem manifestos are both fully costed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 24, 2017, 06:36:52 PM
Yeah the current plan doesn't really seem to be achieving it's stated aim.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on May 24, 2017, 07:11:21 PM
Glad (?) to see the US and UK aren't that different.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 24, 2017, 07:54:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 24, 2017, 06:25:08 PM
Allegedly it's going to pay off the national debt.

I'll let you look up those actual figures for a laugh.  What it's really going into is tax cuts.

Edit: the Labout and (IIRC) Lib Dem manifestos are both fully costed.

What's even funnier is what's in that debt. The UK is still paying for the hilarious south sea fuckup, for instance.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 08:55:30 PM
Also, as the Economist(!) pointed out, Corbyn's own plan would have the UK borrowing less than it currently does, which would (indirectly) help in paying back the national debt.

I mean, if you can't even get The Economist on side, on fiscal policy, as a Tory government...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 24, 2017, 09:49:56 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 24, 2017, 06:04:52 PM
Of course, it's worth noting that under May, 17,000 police officers have left the service, at least some of that due to budget cuts and the general Tory attitude towards the police.

We've seen this before, with the Environment Agency, "let's use the Army to plug the gap in vital services we've underfunded".  The Army itself is underfunded, btw, but since they have to follow legal orders...

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we wouldn't need to call in the Army, at a time when we're debating going back into Afghanistan in force, if we didn't cut police budgets.
There are other things you can do with your police and Armed forces though, Katie Hopkins just said so:-
Quote'We need a final solution,' British columnist tweets — then deletes — after Manchester bombing
Katie Hopkins of Mail Online later said the tweet was a "typo."
:horrormirth:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 24, 2017, 09:58:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 24, 2017, 08:55:30 PM
Also, as the Economist(!) pointed out, Corbyn's own plan would have the UK borrowing less than it currently does, which would (indirectly) help in paying back the national debt.

I mean, if you can't even get The Economist on side, on fiscal policy, as a Tory government...

Well, it's not like anyone's pointed at this government with accusations of competence, is it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2017, 10:21:56 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 24, 2017, 09:49:56 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 24, 2017, 06:04:52 PM
Of course, it's worth noting that under May, 17,000 police officers have left the service, at least some of that due to budget cuts and the general Tory attitude towards the police.

We've seen this before, with the Environment Agency, "let's use the Army to plug the gap in vital services we've underfunded".  The Army itself is underfunded, btw, but since they have to follow legal orders...

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we wouldn't need to call in the Army, at a time when we're debating going back into Afghanistan in force, if we didn't cut police budgets.
There are other things you can do with your police and Armed forces though, Katie Hopkins just said so:-
Quote'We need a final solution,' British columnist tweets — then deletes — after Manchester bombing
Katie Hopkins of Mail Online later said the tweet was a "typo."
:horrormirth:

Yes, I saw her comments on the morning.   Fortunately, it seems this time around there is a significant amount of pushback over her comments.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 26, 2017, 07:01:39 AM
Labour only 5 points behind the Tories.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 26, 2017, 07:40:22 AM
That is while still in a fractured everyone-hates-corbyn state? If that gap closes and they realise there is a real chance of victory what are the odds of the party rallying behind him.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 26, 2017, 07:44:50 AM
If there's a chance of labour winning, Corbyn will have to be replaced by a suit. No way corporate is going to let someone as hostile as Corbyn look like he's making the big decisions.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 26, 2017, 12:30:48 PM
Well one bright spot today:
QuoteKatie Hopkins sacked: LBC staff broke into 'massive cheers and applause' when controversial radio presenter fired

and the Mail online are refusing to comment . . .

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 26, 2017, 07:31:48 PM
It's nice when the Mail refuse to comment on a thing. If this could be encouraged across the set of all possible things I could see myself growing to, if not like, then at least tolerate their existence a little more.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 26, 2017, 11:07:53 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 26, 2017, 12:30:48 PM
Well one bright spot today:
QuoteKatie Hopkins sacked: LBC staff broke into 'massive cheers and applause' when controversial radio presenter fired

and the Mail online are refusing to comment . . .

When they do, they'll still find a way to relate it to fucking house prices.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2017, 01:47:18 PM
So I've just had a leaflet through for my local conservative candidate which states "If you'd like to discuss and issue contact me on..."

I'll be having fun with this. Suggestions welcome, I've already asked questions about sharks, the lack of manifesto costings being lazy and how to fix my toaster.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 29, 2017, 06:09:44 PM
Ask them if your shelving arrangements in the kitchen are strong and stable.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on May 29, 2017, 07:57:02 PM
Paxman interviews Corbyn and May in 30 minutes.

Post-match edit:

Both performed pretty well - Corbyn got a hammering on his past and May got hammered on policies.

Listening to Theresa May talk makes my brain start wandering in record time though.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 29, 2017, 11:03:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 29, 2017, 06:09:44 PM
Ask them if your shelving arrangements in the kitchen are strong and stable.

Will add it to the list. Multiple phone numbers and emails have never been more fun to use. I've got about 7 different personas on the go. My favourite at the moment in Ahmed the recovering crackhead.  If anyone wants in, PM me. I'm determined to give this one more fun than they really wanted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 01, 2017, 05:15:08 PM
I think I've run the well dry on the candidate. Awkward questions and responses from everything from first past the post to a reliance on the collapse of ukip and the subsequent hope racists prefer her. Will type up highlights if anyone wants a laugh.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 02, 2017, 12:59:10 PM
Tory candidate charged.

In other news, the conservative slogans look to be increasingly written by Murdoch. "Magic money tree" kept getting used and that's the cover image and text on today's sun.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 02, 2017, 01:27:43 PM
Well, a magic money tree is the only way to explain how the Tories are going to plug a £750 million deficit in NHS funding.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 02, 2017, 01:29:22 PM
It does seem odd that the Tories' latest strategy seems to be attacking costings when their manifesto was the only (?) one uncosted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 02, 2017, 02:43:50 PM
Well, UKIP's is also uncosted, but to be fair, that's because Paul Nuttall lost the data at Hillsborough.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 07, 2017, 02:15:00 PM
ONE MORE DAY.

Everyone ready for a round of crippling depression on Friday as we wake up to increased Conservative majority?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 07, 2017, 02:26:06 PM
Quote from: Xaz on June 07, 2017, 02:15:00 PM
ONE MORE DAY.

Everyone ready for a round of crippling depression on Friday as we wake up to increased Conservative majority?

If you're actually getting depressed over any shitty tv soap opera, my advice is to seek professional help :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 07, 2017, 02:30:54 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 07, 2017, 02:26:06 PM
Quote from: Xaz on June 07, 2017, 02:15:00 PM
ONE MORE DAY.

Everyone ready for a round of crippling depression on Friday as we wake up to increased Conservative majority?

If you're actually getting depressed over any shitty tv soap opera, my advice is to seek professional help :lulz:

Fair point.

s/crippling depression/horrormirth and medication
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 08, 2017, 10:19:01 PM
Exit poll suggests hung parliament.

You were right about the reality tv.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 08, 2017, 10:21:30 PM
I always liked the sound of that, "Hung parliament". Unfortunately the reality failed to meet expectation. Zombie Thatcher at the end of a rope would look fucking sweet right about now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 08, 2017, 10:31:03 PM
Yup, exit polls show Tories being 12 short of an absolute majority.  However, it would require a Labour-SNP-Lib Dem and Green Party or Plaid Crymu pact to ensure more votes than the Tories would have under those projections.

On the plus side, hopefully the Tory backbenchers will ritually disembowel May for ruining their majority.  At the very least, history will judge her as the PM who decided to unnecessarily lead the UK into EU negotiations with a hung parliament.  That judgement will likely be as harsh as the one Cameron will have, when people start looking back to determine who fucked this all up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 08, 2017, 10:39:17 PM
And meanwhile the clock continues to tick. Strong and stable results this evening. An outright loss would have been better for her historically, rejected outright by the populace would have in a way decisevely got her off the hook instead of this halfhearted effort.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 11:26:38 AM
Clegg gone, Salmond gone, May talking coalition with DUP.

Current argument seems to be about who rings the EU to delay negotiations till the 3rd of never.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 12:05:41 PM
I thought the DUP previously said that May would have to stand down?

This is ridiculous.  PM says "I need mandate to go to Europe", proceeds to piss away a 20 point lead and has to enter into a power sharing arrangement with another party to avoid rule by minority government, but still refuses to step down.  By any metric, while the Labour Party didn't win the election the Tories certainly lost.

The backbenchers are going to murder her.  It'll only take a few Tory rebels to bring this house of cards crashing down, and after the last month, I suspect there is more than a few who want May gone.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 12:37:26 PM
It gets funnier, Murdoch reported to be "fucking livid" and stormed out of an election party after the vote numbers came in.

Various people in all parties calling for may to go. 50/50 there, she's deluded enough to take this as a win.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 12:58:02 PM
Well, given The Sun broke electoral law with its most recent story about Corbyn "preaching to members of Al-Muhajiroun" (spoiler alert: he didn't), Murdoch might have a few more reasons to be pissed in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 01:05:44 PM
In the meantime, I've been detailing the cock-ups by the security services for the (other) day job and...wow, they really cocked it up with the London Bridge attacks.

This NY Times article is as good as any. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/world/europe/london-assailants-terrorism-warning-signs-fbi.html?_r=2&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Europe&action=keypress&region=FixedLeft&pgtype=article

Highlights:

- Members of Al-Muhajiroun, who are linked to 50% of terrorist attacks in the UK and are a banned group besides
- Attacked a government counter-radicalisation advisor in the street, calling him an apostate (specific term used popular with ISIS)
- Said advisor identified him as a Al-Muhajiroun member and "radicalised political Islamist"
- Was reported to the police for unfurling an ISIS flag in a London park
- footage of the police dispersing him and his friends for that ended up on the C4 documentary "The Jihadis Next Door"
- Picked up in Italy travelling with only a small backpack and a bunch of ISIS propaganda, heading to Istanbul
- told security guard he was going to be a terrorist
- was reported to British authorities by Italians
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 01:20:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2017, 12:58:02 PM
Well, given The Sun broke electoral law with its most recent story about Corbyn "preaching to members of Al-Muhajiroun" (spoiler alert: he didn't), Murdoch might have a few more reasons to be pissed in the coming weeks.

Gods, I hope so. If there's a human that deserves a little suffering and personal embarrassment it's Murdoch.

On the DUP coalition guide, I'm guessing they've got their price figured out already - £400 million or so. From the not so distant fuel fuckup. Quick fix for a big bill right in front of them and may's team of top negotiators will be happy to pay it. What's 400 million when you're going to be killed over giving away untold billions in the next 18 months or so?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 09, 2017, 01:33:11 PM
The DUP are sounding worse and worse the more I hear.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 01:36:44 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2017, 01:05:44 PM
In the meantime, I've been detailing the cock-ups by the security services for the (other) day job and...wow, they really cocked it up with the London Bridge attacks.

This NY Times article is as good as any. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/world/europe/london-assailants-terrorism-warning-signs-fbi.html?_r=2&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Europe&action=keypress&region=FixedLeft&pgtype=article

Highlights:

- Members of Al-Muhajiroun, who are linked to 50% of terrorist attacks in the UK and are a banned group besides
- Attacked a government counter-radicalisation advisor in the street, calling him an apostate (specific term used popular with ISIS)
- Said advisor identified him as a Al-Muhajiroun member and "radicalised political Islamist"
- Was reported to the police for unfurling an ISIS flag in a London park
- footage of the police dispersing him and his friends for that ended up on the C4 documentary "The Jihadis Next Door"
- Picked up in Italy travelling with only a small backpack and a bunch of ISIS propaganda, heading to Istanbul
- told security guard he was going to be a terrorist
- was reported to British authorities by Italians

If only there was some kind of warning signs that this could happen. When the clues are this obtuse, what can you do?

Seriously, if these aren't flags that get you seriously watched, what is?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: Xaz on June 09, 2017, 01:33:11 PM
The DUP are sounding worse and worse the more I hear.

Add in what sf may do if they take the deal and it gets better. What better excuse to end absenting your seats than just to oppose them on a vote by vote basis? I think ni came in at 10/7 so it's close enough to be a spite veto, particularly after your allies have just had a whole thing about the ira.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
SF wont take up their seats, that would give legitimacy to English Rule, and recognising the queen, which they still refute. However I bet the offer of a SNP, labour lib dem sf schizolition would have been tempting.

They refused to for the Brexit vote in Parliament and that would have been an even better opportunity.

However having the DUP having any say in matters in the UK... Would have been better off with the schizolition.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 09, 2017, 01:58:48 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: Xaz on June 09, 2017, 01:33:11 PM
The DUP are sounding worse and worse the more I hear.

Add in what sf may do if they take the deal and it gets better. What better excuse to end absenting your seats than just to oppose them on a vote by vote basis? I think ni came in at 10/7 so it's close enough to be a spite veto, particularly after your allies have just had a whole thing about the ira.

SF have said there's "A snowball's chance in hell" of them giving up absenteeism.

One can dream though.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2017, 02:05:53 PM
Waterford Whispers news on the ball again:
Tories To Make Deal With DUP After Satan Pulls Out (http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/06/09/tories-to-make-deal-with-dup-after-satan-pulls-out/?utm_source=WWN_Facebook_Page&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=Social_Link&utm_content=Article)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2017, 02:20:48 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/09/theresa-may-reaches-deal-with-dup-to-form-government-after-shock-election-result-northern-ireland?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

QuoteThe DUP's 'price' for propping up a new Conservative government will include a promise that there would be no post-Brexit special status for Northern Ireland, the party's leader in Westminster has confirmed.
Nigel Dodds, re-elected as North Belfast MP, said that among their preconditions would be an insistence that there was no separate deal that would effectively keep the region with one foot still inside the EU
The DUP fears that special status after Brexit – a key demand of Sinn Féin – would de-couple Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK.

Decades of the peace process, thrown away like that. This is were it starts getting really ugly. If a border gets put in, expect a return to violence.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 09, 2017, 04:51:20 PM
SF unscheduled press conference happening... soon?

Biggest shock of the election or simply power-share details?

(please note I know very little about the politics of NI so apologies in advance for any stupidity)


EDIT: Nope
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 06:26:49 PM
QuoteHowever, those rarely seen on the campaign trail, including Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel and Liam Fox, could be out, says BBC political correspondent Eleanor Garnier.

Comebacks from Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove and prominent leave campaigner Dominic Raab were being floated, she adds.

Dinosaur government, with a side serving of viciousness, coming soon.  If you thought May was dictatorial and and authoritarian, you've not seen anything yet.  She's going to double down on all her worst tendencies.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 07:34:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2017, 06:26:49 PM
QuoteHowever, those rarely seen on the campaign trail, including Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel and Liam Fox, could be out, says BBC political correspondent Eleanor Garnier.

Comebacks from Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove and prominent leave campaigner Dominic Raab were being floated, she adds.

Dinosaur government, with a side serving of viciousness, coming soon.  If you thought May was dictatorial and and authoritarian, you've not seen anything yet.  She's going to double down on all her worst tendencies.

Oh Ho Ho, ibs is back? Iain "I'm crying because my policies are obviously killing people" bastard-Smith?

Add in gove ND raab and it's a great echo chamber with no understanding of Ireland or the eu.

"No deal is best deal" coming soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2017, 10:08:23 PM
Well, it's all rumours for now.  You know May.  Why state something publically when she can consult with, like, 3 people in secret and not let anyone else know what the fuck is going on?

I don't see this Parliament lasting more than a year.  Between the Tory backbenchers smelling weakness and some very high profile Tory MPs barely scraping through to a victory, I can see lots of incentives to overthrow the PM, and not a lot of good reasons for leaving her in place.  The austerity Tories are going to bitch about sending pork to NI, the liberal Tories are already freaking out at the prospect of working with the DUP at all...and then we have to remember that Tory succession basically runs off of successful regicide.  The Tory front bench is incredibly weak, anyone with half a brain and a talent for vindictiveness is going to think their time has come, and this is their one chance to seize power.

Of course, this would all be terribly amusing if we were not navigating the biggest constitutional crisis since the formation of the United Kingdom.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 09, 2017, 11:07:44 PM
I must say, the chances of Gove alone fucking things up is pretty high. When you factor in the whole party it's just a matter of time until someone sticks the knife in. There's plenty of people involved that can't/wont negotiate and will see any reasonable concessions to the EU as weakness so it really is inevitable. Abandoning negotiations halfway through for another election and starting again from scratch is quite likely.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2017, 12:21:30 AM
To be fair, May did warn us this election could lead of a coalition of chaos propped up by terrorist sympathizers

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2017, 12:55:21 AM
Oh great.

Sinn Fein say the DUP being part of government contravenes the Good Friday Agreement.  And they're actually probably right.  Especially with the Stormont Assembly's breakdown of the power-sharing arrangement.  This puts the Tories unequivocally on the side of the unionists, when it promised under the agreement to remain impartial between unionists and republicans.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 10, 2017, 01:14:28 AM
Oh, that's nicely done. And given the ignorance of all involved it probably won't be the last breach either.

The headlines, particularly the Murdoch ones, are not kind.   And Diana nonsense, because UK press.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 10, 2017, 04:44:12 PM
May's two top aides gone taking all the blame they can. And would you believe one used to work for sky news as a journalist? Of course you would, it happens to be true. Will be fun to see how the Sunday rags spin that as once again  an ex Murdoch pr guru is shown the door. If her own party doesn't get her the vindictive old Australian will make any negotiations a ballache.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2017, 04:53:38 PM
Apparently the departure was a sop to the Party who demanded that at least someone's head roll over the disastrous election campaign.

Meanwhile, we wont have a Cabinet announcement until Monday.  Why?  Our glorious Unionist overlords can't work on Sundays - too busy praying for god to smite homosexuals, abortionists and papists.  In other NI related news, marching season is almost upon us, which I'm sure won't go horribly wrong as a newly empowered DUP seek to flex their muscles and an already angry Sinn Fein become increasingly incensed.

I actually feel pretty sorry for Ruth Davidson right about now.  Her work in Scotland saved May's government from further defeats, and how is she rewarded for her effort?  With May creating a coalition with a party who think she's a sinner and abomination.  She's already ruled out splitting the Scottish Conservatives from the Tory Party, but if she did I don't think anyone would blame her right now.

I also feel kinda sorry for Alistair Campbell and Jonathan Powell.  For their many failings, they poured so much hard work into Northern Ireland, and they really did give a fuck about finding a solution and stopping the fighting.  And they've kept engaged in the process over the years, even out of government.  Watching May piss it all away for a lame duck Parliament must be infuriating.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 11, 2017, 11:39:09 PM
Falls road is gonna be total gigglefest this year :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 11, 2017, 11:59:10 PM
SF are right in that a rule in westminster (should a government fail to be formed in NI) means indirect rule by the DUP which contravenes the good friday agreement and powersharing. However that is only because of their policy of Absenteeism. Considering we have SF in the Republic too, I unfortunatly cant blame the DUP for entering a partnership they are allowed to do.

The absenteeism leads to a bit of an impass; If SF were to have equal representation, they would need to take up their seats and the tories would have to take both parties in, such a goverment would likely last about a day before the countries are going to the polls again. The alternative is the rainbow party of SF putting Corbyn in power, in which case everyone gets what they want:
Votes on independence in Scottland and Northern Ireland, nuclear disarmerment, whatever the hell the lib dems want and of course, another referrendum on brexit to potentially hault that problem.

I don't envy the UK right now, but at the very least it might raise awareness of Northern Ireland, and for once its the DUP getting accused of terrorism from their masters which is hilarous.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 12, 2017, 07:34:34 AM
Quote from: Faust on June 11, 2017, 11:59:10 PM
whatever the hell the lib dems want

Dank Tim Farron memes, and Tim Farron for Minister of Banter:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/19/article-2039217-0DF8251200000578-949_468x286.jpg)

https://www.joe.co.uk/entertainment/exploring-what-the-hell-tim-farron-meant-when-he-said-smell-my-spaniel-123419
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 12, 2017, 05:18:00 PM
New yorker fucking slaying it  (http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn) :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2017, 11:39:40 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 12, 2017, 05:18:00 PM
New yorker fucking slaying it  (http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn) :lulz:

This just made my bad day good again.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 13, 2017, 05:27:32 PM
Major and Irish pm now also saying this will bugger up peace process if a deal is done with dup.

Rumors that the main dup demand is that it keeps getting the same money that it was getting when in the eu, apparently around 350 million/year. If that's true it's hilarious, if it's not then whatever deal is done will be using that as a benchmark, which will also be hilarious as one of the loons will leak the details.

Queens speech delayed until deal is done, as everyone involved is fucking clueless.

Right wing rags accusing junker and the eu of this whole mess, apparently poor may was tricked by nasty Euro types. Eu sticking boot in suggesting that all the delays may result in no deal due to no time.

In short, incompetence rules the foreseeable future.

Oh and "no climate change" gove is back and in charge of environment, because that's what was good enough for America so it's good enough here too.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 13, 2017, 06:00:17 PM
The tabloids are also running scaremongering rumours that Sinn Fein are coming to London to take up their seats in Parliament and put Corbyn into power.

I'm pretty sure that, after a week of constantly pointing out that a NI party joining government would destroy the peace process, the last thing SF would do is do exactly the same.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 13, 2017, 06:56:09 PM
SF are perfectly happy now, all they need to do is say very little and every move the DUP make will make them look better. They aren't interested in putting Corbyn in power unless it guarantees them a United Ireland, which could actually be less in the forefront of everyone's mind if they were to take up their seats, they would look weak, pleading for something that shouldn't need to be asked for.

In this position, they stand to gain the most, look at the DUP, they expect post Brexit they will get the same funding, most of the north is wondering that. It only takes the loyalist agricultural community (already pissed off over the co-op meat issue), who are heavily propped up by the EU to lose faith that England will protect their interests and a vote on re-joining the Republic will start seeming like an eventuality.

I'll be honest here, I would love to see a United Ireland within my lifetime. I know that seems stupid considering its a money pit, that its saddled with fringe nationalist lunatics on both sides of the scale, I think it's the only road to lasting peace, and for yourselves over in the UK, these bizarre purgatorial situations are less likely to happen

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 13, 2017, 07:23:51 PM
You can accuse Gerry Adams of many things, but stupidity would not be the first thing that comes to mind.  He'll play it smart, with the longterm goal in mind.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 14, 2017, 01:59:54 PM
No government for at least another week, according to latest reports.  But you know, strong and stable and all that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 14, 2017, 03:12:28 PM
That was their old motto, before the DUP, now its "turning and turning in widening gyre, The centre cannot hold"

I wonder is it that the DUP think they can make a list of demands before they form a government.
What happens if no one party can get the majority even through negotiating with another party, does it go up for election again?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 14, 2017, 03:37:35 PM
Minority government until someone makes a deal or May is topped by her own backbenchers and/or a vote of no confidence.

I think going to MPs to ask for another election at this stage would be moving well beyond "history repeating itself as farce" and into "history repeating itself as some kind of slapstick toilet humour" territory.  MPs may not even agree to it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 14, 2017, 07:53:03 PM
Farron stepping down as leader of lib dems.

Didn't expect that one.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 14, 2017, 11:59:49 PM
Sf are coming over for a word about the dup deal with may.
:lulz:
I am praying they go for full on ski mask/balaclava/classic look.

Just the idea of it has me laughing far more than is probably healthy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 15, 2017, 01:21:16 AM
Well, I mean, PMQs is going to look like this, so I say let them fit in:

(http://i.imgur.com/kyVgUuM.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 15, 2017, 03:12:27 PM
In addition to being actually terrible, the Grenfall Tower fire is making May even less popular.  That one of her own aide's sat on a report about fire safety for 4 years, and that austerity cuts meant the local council couldn't afford to refurb the fire escapes properly, in addition to her own robotic performance at the scene, make me feel like this may have a disproportionate impact politically.

That there is going to be a public inquiry means a backlash is all but inevitable.  Public inquiry = already an admission of fault.

In other news, May, who keeps promising us she will get the best deal for the UK from the EU, is struggling to close a deal with a party of provincial religious fundamentalists.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 15, 2017, 05:23:42 PM
The state of the dup negotiations are very telling for just how bad the eu ones will get. When you can't sweeten less than a dozen mps you've got no chance of getting a deal you want from 20+ countries with a united position.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 15, 2017, 06:34:14 PM
Speaking of which...first round of Brexit talks begin on Monday.  The DUP have said just in the past hour that there is still no deadline on a deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 16, 2017, 01:27:08 PM
May refuses to meet residents affected by fire due to "security concerns" which apparently didn't apply or concern the queen who appeared to shake hands and nod.

The fire in general beyond being horrible will likely keep claiming victims. The start of the who knew what and when has begun in earnest and those implicated so far seem to have the same reasoning of "no action because too expensive". So it looks like we have another incident where the costs for prevention are likely to be a pittance compared to the costs of fixing one fuckup. From the state and extent of the damage, I assume the building will eventually be demolished as refurb costs would be beyond the pale. That will cost a couple of quid and no small amount of heartache.

And then there's the cladding issue which has the potential to unravel and drag in a whole other list of bodies who may be culpable to a degree. Also massive potential cost implications across the UK should something be at fault with install/design practices as the shit is everywhere.

Can't help but think that a bit of asbestos here and there would have saved a lot of lives. From the age of it, it probably would have been built it in there and then removed in the last 20 years or so.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2017, 12:49:34 AM
First political casualty from the fire looking to be barwell, former housing minister, recently tarted about as may's "deputy pm". A no comment and long silent walk from cameras was telling. Literally no comment, nothing. Just the look of a man who's been told he's not got long left and to expect a bad time.

Bets on whether he takes may with him as her appearances have been less than productive. Blair or similar ilk would at least have the pr nuances down at this point: go forth and get publicly nailed to the cross by residents for a while. May's lack of ability to withstand this on a personal or political level will have serious consequences from this. Might even prompt a leadership challenge.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 17, 2017, 01:05:28 AM
Apparently the only reason May's still PM is that the Tories fear Gove or Johnson more than her.  I mean literally, they'd toss her overboard with a moment's notice if they thought they had credible alternatives.  They hate her, but they fear the alternatives more.

Politically, this means the Party has decided to go down with the Good Ship May.  Whatever happens, whoever fucks up, someone will take the fall for May, to avert any potential leadership challenge.  That is, unless, someone on the backbenches fancies their chances...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2017, 01:13:20 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 17, 2017, 01:05:28 AM
Apparently the only reason May's still PM is that the Tories fear Gove or Johnson more than her.  I mean literally, they'd toss her overboard with a moment's notice if they thought they had credible alternatives.  They hate her, but they fear the alternatives more.

Politically, this means the Party has decided to go down with the Good Ship May.  Whatever happens, whoever fucks up, someone will take the fall for May, to avert any potential leadership challenge.  That is, unless, someone on the backbenches fancies their chances...

That's what I was thinking. I wouldn't put it past a random tarquin to appear and decide that because his boarding school chum errrolia futheringfulton-blensop got a job doing the pr thing to chance their hand. And once one tries it it's chum in the water. Hell, I wouldn't put it past Rudd to have a stab once she's a bit further past the recent bereavement. Trying your hand now when a few contenders are already weak makes sense.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 17, 2017, 01:14:49 AM
Yeah, but who wants to inherit Brexit and the DUP coalition?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2017, 01:19:42 AM
I know that's a joke but I'd bet gove can't walk in public at the thought of it, which is where I'm concerned this could end up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2017, 01:33:32 AM
I mean seriously,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473

Look at may in that interview. That's a woman who's not getting any sleep. And it's that noticable, it's going to get remarked upon. Once you've got the "doesn't she look tired" line out, the rest is inevitable. Add in how terrible the interview was (Rambling, non-answers to questions, not even evasive just outright answering a totally different question) and I'd say a leadership challenge isn't in the realms of madness.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 19, 2017, 09:35:29 AM
EU negotiations start today.

The EU is worried that the Tories will crumble under the pressure (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/19/eu-leaders-fear-that-fragile-state-of-tories-will-lead-to-brutal-brexit) of the negotiations and leave without a deal:

QuoteEuropean leaders fear that Theresa May's government is too fragile to negotiate viable terms on which to leave the union, meaning the discussions that officially begin on Monday could end in a "brutal Brexit" – under which talks collapse without any deal.

As officials began gathering in Brussels on Sunday night, the long-awaited start of negotiations was overshadowed by political chaos back in Westminster, where chancellor Philip Hammond warned that failing to strike a deal would be "a very, very bad outcome".

The EU side fears that, in reality, the British government will struggle to maintain any position without falling apart in the coming months, because, without support from the Democratic Unionist party, May's negotiating hand is limited. There are also concerns that any DUP backing to give May a majority in the House of Commons would come with strings attached.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 21, 2017, 05:08:36 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-40347632

DUP trying to extort 2 Billion to prop up government. This probably comes as a surprise to many in the UK unfamiliar with the DUP, we've had to put up with these morons for years.

The next step is the Tories refuse and the DUP accuse the Tories of not supporting the people of Northern Ireland and treating unionists as second class citizens, if not going full idiocy and accusing the Tories of being disgusting Catholic Taigs undermining the Empire.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 21, 2017, 05:12:56 PM
 :lulz:

What I find really funny about this is that I do follow NI politics enough to know that the DUP are morons.  But right now, the Tories are failing to negotiate with them.  Think about what this means for Brexit, when we'll be negotiating with the best and brightest of 26 nations.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 21, 2017, 05:18:11 PM
UK fails to Negotiate with itself, delays negotiation with remaining 26 nations.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2017, 07:36:40 PM
Hs2 seems to have gotten a quiet nod as well. So along with an unknown brexit bill gods know how many billions that will end up costing for an irrelevant return.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:34:28 AM
Every single tested building in the UK so far has failed the cladding fire tests they have been put through.

Meanwhile, still no government.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2017, 03:38:45 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:34:28 AM
Every single tested building in the UK so far has failed the cladding fire tests they have been put through.

Meanwhile, still no government.

So we'll just wait while the free market makes your buildings not be deathtraps, then?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:43:10 AM
Pretty much.  I mean, I hope you weren't expecting the councils to pay for them to be made safe.   :lulz:  Local authorities are so cash-starved even Tory councils are protesting government spending cuts.

Now, even without a government I'd like to think most of Parliament would probably agree having entire buildings be fire-based deathtraps probably isn't great.  But...well, there's only room on the government agenda for Brexit.

So we'll just have to hope there's no fires between now and March 2019.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2017, 03:44:05 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:43:10 AM
Pretty much.  I mean, I hope you weren't expecting the councils to pay for them to be made safe.   :lulz:  Local authorities are so cash-starved even Tory councils are protesting government spending cuts.

Now, even without a government I'd like to think most of Parliament would probably agree having entire buildings be fire-based deathtraps probably isn't great.  But...well, there's only room on the government agenda for Brexit.

So we'll just have to hope there's no fires between now and March 2019.

I wonder how we got here?

I mean, besides the whole "left devouring itself" thing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:49:45 AM
Only listening to poor people when they bash the EU and immigrants.  Poor people, complaining that their building is a deathtrap?  Pffft, what do they know.  Poor people, complaining about the EU?  Clearly geniuses in touch with the country's true feelings. 

We've pretty much mastered a political system where if you don't have money you only get heard when your opinions flatter Fleet Street Barons or the politicians who fellate them.  If you dare complain about actual issues with a real impact, you'll be ignored and left to die.

Incidentally, Labour is 46 to Tories 41 in national polls right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2017, 03:58:33 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2017, 03:49:45 AM
Only listening to poor people when they bash the EU and immigrants.  Poor people, complaining that their building is a deathtrap?  Pffft, what do they know.  Poor people, complaining about the EU?  Clearly geniuses in touch with the country's true feelings. 

We've pretty much mastered a political system where if you don't have money you only get heard when your opinions flatter Fleet Street Barons or the politicians who fellate them.  If you dare complain about actual issues with a real impact, you'll be ignored and left to die.

Incidentally, Labour is 46 to Tories 41 in national polls right now.

Where were they in the polls at the time of the election?  I've been noticing that the left is vocal as hell in polls, etc, but don't actually vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 04:07:41 AM
It was 39-42 to the Tories, with several close calls in key voting districts.  The UK's gerrymandered too...not to the extent the US is, but the actual polling figures show that the gap between Labour and the Tories is only a few thousand votes, over the entire country. 

And you have to remember, when the election started, the Tories had a 20 point lead. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2017, 04:34:46 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 26, 2017, 04:07:41 AM
It was 39-42 to the Tories, with several close calls in key voting districts.  The UK's gerrymandered too...not to the extent the US is, but the actual polling figures show that the gap between Labour and the Tories is only a few thousand votes, over the entire country. 

And you have to remember, when the election started, the Tories had a 20 point lead.

Yeah, and I can see how they pissed it away.  Why do they let Theresa May speak in public?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2017, 04:49:21 AM
Too Strong And Stable for the public to handle.  But truthfully, she's basically a control freak.  So she didn't trust anyone outside her small circle of sycophants with anything, and, surprise surprise...

Supposedly Tory rebels are considering the Chancellor as a potential replacement for May, which isn't entirely terrible.  Hammond has all the charisma of a dead squid (so roughly May's equal), but he's actually not insane and competent, in a mildly technocratic fashion.  He's also surprisingly realistic on Brexit, for someone who is still in the Cabinet. 

Personally, I'd like to see a Tory Party run by Dominic Grieve.  It would mean potentially turning over the Intelligence and Security Committee to some lunatic, but otherwise, he's probably the best hope the Tories have right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 26, 2017, 02:52:08 PM
We have Government!  :banana:


But it's the Tories propped up by DUP  :sadbanana:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 26, 2017, 04:06:13 PM
Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash!  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 01:51:28 AM
Cabinet now arguing publicly about brexit. Hammond taking digs at Boris for being a tit. Smells like leadership challenge jockeying.

Headline in the hell is "beyond satire". Possibly the most factual statement ever published if you only look at those two words and not the associated story.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 28, 2017, 02:13:02 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 26, 2017, 04:06:13 PM
Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash!  :lulz:

Off to google...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 28, 2017, 06:20:15 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 28, 2017, 02:13:02 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 26, 2017, 04:06:13 PM
Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash!  :lulz:

Off to google...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE)

On the surface it seems innocuous enough but it's when yelled at catholics while you're stomping their face to keep time that it really comes into it's own. I'd advise any tourist visiting our fine nation to whistle this upon entering any pub. You'll either be bought a free drink or killed to death depending on the pub  :evil:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on June 28, 2017, 08:09:51 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 28, 2017, 06:20:15 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 28, 2017, 02:13:02 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 26, 2017, 04:06:13 PM
Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash!  :lulz:

Off to google...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE)

On the surface it seems innocuous enough but it's when yelled at catholics while you're stomping their face to keep time that it really comes into it's own. I'd advise any tourist visiting our fine nation to whistle this upon entering any pub. You'll either be bought a free drink or killed to death depending on the pub  :evil:

I work with an old-school Ulster lass. They are interesting, tough folk. I'm only scared of two people, the missus and the Ulster girl.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2017, 08:43:57 AM
As Chancellor, Hammond knows that no deal is, except in ludicrous exploitative circumstances invented in the heads of feverish UKIP members, worse than a deal with the EU.

And I see our "internal ID cards for EU members" will not go down well.  As I'm sure you all remember, the UK argued strongly against the implementation of an EU-wide system of ID.  Of course, there's nothing to stop the UK from doing so, but putting it out like that almost seems like it was designed to raise hackles and play to the home crowd.  If you really want IDs, make a vague mention to a system of registration in the deal, then introduce the legislation once the ink is dry.

Not that I like the idea itself.  I had to carry my ID papers everywhere I went in Switzerland, and I didn't like that.  But the Swiss authorities are quite a cut above the UK ones, and the Swiss leadership hadn't been whipping up xenophobia against legal foreign workers in the way we do here.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2017, 08:46:34 AM
David Lammy is suggesting there has been an effort to coverup or play down the number of deaths in Grenfell Towers, to avoid a public riot.  He may be right.

What's definitely a criminal conspiracy is how this cladding, despite being illegal, is so widespread in its usage.  Someone, somewhere, knows why this is the case.  It's not like all these companies independently decided to chance it with the regulations, all at once.  Someone said this was OK or said they wouldn't investigate.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2017, 08:52:57 AM
Times cartoon today:

(https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F54300d48-5b6e-11e7-8b02-b735a4dd8be3.jpg?crop=2711%2C1807%2C615%2C205&resize=1370)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 28, 2017, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 28, 2017, 08:46:34 AM
David Lammy is suggesting there has been an effort to coverup or play down the number of deaths in Grenfell Towers, to avoid a public riot.  He may be right.

What's definitely a criminal conspiracy is how this cladding, despite being illegal, is so widespread in its usage.  Someone, somewhere, knows why this is the case.  It's not like all these companies independently decided to chance it with the regulations, all at once.  Someone said this was OK or said they wouldn't investigate.

Minitrue was sticking at 17 for the first day and (more than)17 for about the next two iirc. This was well past the point where it was common knowledge that there were at least 70 bodies lying on a slab somewhere. Huffpo mentioned that between 450-500 would require rehomed. Given that more than most of this number had burned to death, I wouldn't think that would have been a pressing concern.

Any word on the numbers yet or are we still sticking to the official - as many as two people with slightly singed eyebrows - line?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 28, 2017, 12:44:57 PM
79 seems to be the number the press is going with, but I've heard reports of up to 150 dead.

I've noticed since Lammy spoke up some outlets are now writing "at least 79" dead.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 01:33:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 28, 2017, 08:46:34 AM
David Lammy is suggesting there has been an effort to coverup or play down the number of deaths in Grenfell Towers, to avoid a public riot.  He may be right.

What's definitely a criminal conspiracy is how this cladding, despite being illegal, is so widespread in its usage.  Someone, somewhere, knows why this is the case.  It's not like all these companies independently decided to chance it with the regulations, all at once.  Someone said this was OK or said they wouldn't investigate.

Well I can give a few reasons based on my dealings with various councils.

The first would be some bollocks like "value engineering" which is a fancy way of saying use a crappier product instead of one that actually meets the spec. Typically a Bill of quantities from a council demands very particular products from certain suppliers but tenderers are "invited to make alternative proposals" which usually means "Offer us something that saves time or money, preferably both". The muppets assessing the bids then rate them. 80%+ of the total bid score is usually down to cost. Less than 10% normally on H+S, the remainder on proving you're not about to go bang before the work is done.

What this leads to is something like:
-Council insists material must be X, which has (Safety feature, like say flame retardant)
-Contractors spec X, and also spec Y which is cheaper by a country mile.
-Council compares the prices of various Y's and nominates the cheapest contractor.
-Cheap contractor turns up with crappy materials and gets on with job. No real questions asked.
-If shit ever goes wrong, it's not on the contractors toes, as the council agreed to the change in material spec.

Needless to say, Austerity is a factor in these kind of bad decisions. A council just sees an easy way to save £X on a job, why think more of it?


Another strong possibility is a tool in a building control department at some council, somewhere OK'd the first use of it as being close enough. That's taken as a precedent and the next time any objections are raised, they go back to that guy. That guy now can't change his mind as it's already been done and it would cost him his job. So he approves the next. Precedent is now the standard. And now it's everywhere.


Bribery of a council employee to accept alternative spec and award contract on that basis is 50/50. Can't speculate to much there without seeing the original work spec. It happens too routinely anyway to be much of a factor overall.


An outside possibility is that the contractors just used alternative materials without telling anyone or discussing it. I think this unlikely for a few reasons but it's not in the realms of the impossible. Incredibly stupid, requires committing fraud and opening the company/you personally up to all sorts of legal ramifications but not impossible.


This isn't a whodunit for the ages, the list of possible suspects is laughably short and must have a relatively lengthy paper trail by the nature of the projects. It's either a council gremlin, building control monkey or the contractor who have severely fucked up. This is pitifully easy to investigate and determine blame, just look at the winning tender documentation, contract award and paper trail. If I had access to these, I could accurately point a finger at the culprit in probably less than half an hour. Then it becomes a discussion about who authorised what and were they instructed to do so, etc. But again, there will be an easy, obvious paper trail.


I would also note that no-one is being publicly hung out to dry over this yet. That screams council to me as if it was the contractors fault/error/fuckup their names would be all over the press with taglines like "MURDERERS". Mainly as there would be someone at the council saying "told you so, let's fuck them". This hasn't occurred so it does imply the responsibility will be with the council for accepting a change in spec or putting out a bad spec to begin with. 



What I would be marginally more concerned about right now is a radicalised or unstable guy realising that he doesn't even have to rent a van or buy a knife anymore. A packet of matches is all that's needed. That's a significantly lower barrier to entry than making a bomb or renting a van.


As for the total # dead, it's impossible to say for certain without cleaning out the building. You can account for residents but guests and visitors are a total unknown and identification a touch tricky. It'll be a while before an official total is given but I wouldn't be surprised at 200+.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 28, 2017, 02:18:41 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 01:33:46 PM
What I would be marginally more concerned about right now is a radicalised or unstable guy realising that he doesn't even have to rent a van or buy a knife anymore. A packet of matches is all that's needed. That's a significantly lower barrier to entry than making a bomb or renting a van.

Been patiently awaiting Great Fire of London II since I first heard it was the cladding. One might also take into consideration the prime motivator for these renovations in the first place, ie. cosmetic - important people in expensive buildings don't want tatty council housing spoiling their view and messing with their property valuations. Maybe safe materials are a bit uglier and hence the deciding factor?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 02:23:06 PM
The appearance is indistinguishable, the cost will be the factor. Bet on it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 02:41:06 PM
Anyway, anyone fancy going halves on starting a cladding removal company?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 28, 2017, 02:45:05 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 02:23:06 PM
The appearance is indistinguishable, the cost will be the factor. Bet on it.

It seems the cladding was polyethylene sandwiched between aluminium sheets - any higher rated cladding is likely to differ in the core material rather than the aluminium.

The testing that this cladding is likely to have gone through will be either direct or indirect exposure to flame (i.e. torch the fucker or set something on fire near the fucker). It's possible that the cladding as-is will have performed well on these tests - only once the protective aluminium was pierced (as it was fitted to the building possibly) and the completely flammable core exposed did it prove to be a hazard.

It looks like the panels in question, Reynobond PE, were actually tested to ASTM E84 which is more of an American standard than a European/British one to my knowledge.

The manufacturer claims that both the PE and the FR versions of their composite cladding achieves a class A - based off this it sounds like it could be slightly harder to pin the blame on someone - choosing a cheaper cladding is a no-brainer if they both appear to meet the same specification.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on June 28, 2017, 02:48:00 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 02:41:06 PM
Anyway, anyone fancy going halves on starting a cladding removal company?

Cladding removal and installation.

It will be interesting to see who gets the contract for all the replacement cladding.

EDIT: Police saying there's unlikely to be an official death toll by the end of the year.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on June 28, 2017, 07:47:06 PM
Quote from: Vanadium Gryllz on June 28, 2017, 02:48:00 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 02:41:06 PM
Anyway, anyone fancy going halves on starting a cladding removal company?

Cladding removal and installation.

It will be interesting to see who gets the contract for all the replacement cladding.

EDIT: Police saying there's unlikely to be an official death toll by the end of the year.

I doubt there will ever be an accurate death toll
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 29, 2017, 01:04:08 AM
Quote from: Vanadium Gryllz on June 28, 2017, 02:48:00 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 28, 2017, 02:41:06 PM
Anyway, anyone fancy going halves on starting a cladding removal company?

Cladding removal and installation.

It will be interesting to see who gets the contract for all the replacement cladding.

EDIT: Police saying there's unlikely to be an official death toll by the end of the year.

I can think of a few likely names. None are cheap.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 29, 2017, 01:18:21 PM
120+ tests on cladding to date, 100% failure rate.

That's almost impressive.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 29, 2017, 01:54:12 PM
Yup. You see what I mean about this being allowed by someone.  You don't just get this failure rate through chance.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 29, 2017, 02:02:19 PM
Which makes the big question: "where was it first used?"

Again, very limited list of responsible people to sift through. With this failure rate I'm leaning more to building control.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 29, 2017, 05:12:06 PM
idk what you guys are so worried about. the market will sort this all out. dead tenants don't pay rent, it's bad for business.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 29, 2017, 10:18:41 PM
Ehm, so what is happening with the 120+ buildings with the fire hazard, are people being put into temporary accomidation or is anything else being done?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 29, 2017, 10:22:30 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 29, 2017, 10:18:41 PM
Ehm, so what is happening with the 120+ buildings with the fire hazard, are people being put into temporary accomidation or is anything else being done?

They're hoping a fire doesn't happen while they contract firms to rip it out.

In some cases, moving residents would be unfeasible, because some of the buildings with cladding aren't just flats, but residential nursing homes and similar.  But only in some.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 30, 2017, 12:41:29 PM
Tender docs show cladding spec changed to save 300k. 149 tests done, still 100% failure.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2017, 03:56:44 AM
I've managed to convince my company to carry out tests on our properties out of our own pockets, rather than wait for the council.  No word on when it is starting, but I won't be surprised when they all fail.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on July 01, 2017, 10:00:14 AM
I think we may as well scrap the tests at this point and replace all the cladding cross country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2017, 07:55:09 PM
That may be the cheaper option in the long run.

However, there probably isn't any money for that.  Too busy buying votes from the DUP, there's nothing left in the pot.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 01, 2017, 08:46:19 PM
Sell the DUP? Their shares must have gone through the roof. Wouldn't surprise me if you could recoup 3 or 4 billion right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on July 01, 2017, 10:33:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2017, 07:55:09 PM
That may be the cheaper option in the long run.

However, there probably isn't any money for that.  Too busy buying votes from the DUP, there's nothing left in the pot.

That is going to backfire badly in the long run.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 01, 2017, 10:40:09 PM
Quote from: Fallenkezef on July 01, 2017, 10:33:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2017, 07:55:09 PM
That may be the cheaper option in the long run.

However, there probably isn't any money for that.  Too busy buying votes from the DUP, there's nothing left in the pot.

That is going to backfire badly in the long run.

Trying to think of a current politician in the USA or the UK that is possible of thinking of events after supper.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2017, 11:13:29 PM
Short-termism is going to kill us all, one fine day.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 02, 2017, 02:57:33 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2017, 11:13:29 PM
Short-termism is going to kill us all, one fine day.

Newsfeed.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fallenkezef on July 02, 2017, 07:45:50 AM
It's the inherent flaw of democracy. Doesn't matter if you vote right or left, the government only works on a 5 year time frame.

No point putting in place long-term reform or programs if you cold be voted out in 5 years. They just focus on lining their own pockets until the people figure it out and vote in the other side in the mistaken belief the will be somehow different.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 02, 2017, 09:16:37 AM
Gove is planning on pulling the UK out of the common fisheries act to "take back UK waters for UK fishermen". This same insane promise was pushed by UKIP so I really didn't think anyone would take it seriously, the bottom line is that act allowed the UK access to an area streching up towards Iceland, down to Spain and up past Norway and vice versa, European countries in UK water.

While technically it means that the UK will have exclusive fishing rights to it's own area, where previously a lot was given away to other countries, it's greatly reduced area means all UK fishing vessles will be competing in a very small area.

But it also doesn't take into account that certain kinds of fish are seasonal and regional, if there is a really good salmon batch down by spain or west of Ireland it just wont have access, and never mind if you wanted to pick up something exotic like swordfish or octopus.

The bottom line is, keeping the existing rules protected UK fishermens livelyhoods, and kept fish costs low... Lets hope the Brexit negotiations succeed on import/export duties because if it defaults to WTO taxation of 21% in/out a lot of people are going to lose their jobs.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 02, 2017, 11:59:11 AM
Quote from: Faust on July 02, 2017, 09:16:37 AM
Gove is planning on pulling the UK out of the common fisheries act to "take back UK waters for UK fishermen". This same insane promise was pushed by UKIP so I really didn't think anyone would take it seriously, the bottom line is that act allowed the UK access to an area streching up towards Iceland, down to Spain and up past Norway and vice versa, European countries in UK water.

While technically it means that the UK will have exclusive fishing rights to it's own area, where previously a lot was given away to other countries, it's greatly reduced area means all UK fishing vessles will be competing in a very small area.

But it also doesn't take into account that certain kinds of fish are seasonal and regional, if there is a really good salmon batch down by spain or west of Ireland it just wont have access, and never mind if you wanted to pick up something exotic like swordfish or octopus.

The bottom line is, keeping the existing rules protected UK fishermens livelyhoods, and kept fish costs low... Lets hope the Brexit negotiations succeed on import/export duties because if it defaults to WTO taxation of 21% in/out a lot of people are going to lose their jobs.

It seems to be a given that no matter what the looneytunes in power do an awful lot of people are going to lose their jobs and a whole lot more people are going to have a degraded standard of living. In self defence I have decided that the best approach to this is to stop giving a flying fuck and to pimp out my handcart because we surely seem to be headed to hell on the fast track.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 02, 2017, 02:25:21 PM
It might not have such far reaching consequences but it seems so frustratingly unnecessary, especially with everything else going on. It's like Gove wanted to do something big and showy because he was on the out in the party, so in relation to Brexit he does something that would appear decisive, to endear himself with big boys table.

In reality it's is like going to a party where everyone has brought a massive amount of booze of all different varieties, then feeling precious about the bottle of wine he brought so instead decides to go home and drink it for himself.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 02, 2017, 10:36:32 PM
Quote from: Fallenkezef on July 02, 2017, 07:45:50 AM
It's the inherent flaw of democracy. Doesn't matter if you vote right or left, the government only works on a 5 year time frame.

No point putting in place long-term reform or programs if you cold be voted out in 5 years. They just focus on lining their own pockets until the people figure it out and vote in the other side in the mistaken belief the will be somehow different.

True, but at this point even a 5 year time frame would be nice.

Quote from: Faust on July 02, 2017, 02:25:21 PM
It might not have such far reaching consequences but it seems so frustratingly unnecessary, especially with everything else going on. It's like Gove wanted to do something big and showy because he was on the out in the party, so in relation to Brexit he does something that would appear decisive, to endear himself with big boys table.

In reality it's is like going to a party where everyone has brought a massive amount of booze of all different varieties, then feeling precious about the bottle of wine he brought so instead decides to go home and drink it for himself.

Gove is just doing for the environment what he did for education.

I will say I was surprised to see Gove jumping on the bandwagon to raise pay for civil servants and public sector workers.  I suppose it's possible the man isn't a complete shit, all day every day.  But it does seem like yet another case of him seeing a bared back, sticking the knife in and twisting it a bit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 10, 2017, 12:21:01 PM
May now asking for policy ideas from other parties, rather than just stealing them. "In light of the political realities", which translated means "I can't rely on my own party or even the dup despite the bribe."

"Resign immediately" is probably going to be the main suggestion. And this is surely another death note for this government whichever way you cut it.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2017, 02:38:45 PM
May isnt going to resign. Clearly you've been drinking too much warm prosecco.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 10, 2017, 04:24:45 PM
We can dream.

I can't imagine what would have to happen for May to actually resign though. She seems pretty intent on staying.

Having said that she was pretty intent on not having a snap election.

If she doesn't resign doesn't this action give the opposition parties a lot of power though? Start implementing some of their policies or at least ameliorating some of the Tories'  That seems like a good thing.

EDIT: Consumer spending lowest since 2013 as prices rise and wages don't. Strap in folks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2017, 06:31:10 PM
You might have missed yesterday's news.  According to Justice Secretary David Lidington all talk of May resigning is the result of warm prosecco, nothing more.

It's certainly not due to plotting by David Davis.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 12, 2017, 01:00:56 PM
Today is the bonfire and marching day up the north, it's a day that tends to have violence, and high tensions around it.
They are a small subset of scumbags, but it's important to note they are the DUPs voting base.

A charming bunch to be sure, with fine cultural traditions like buring the Irish flag, and with lovely banners like "We're not racist, just don't like Niggas"
(https://i.imgur.com/6q1QA6A.jpg)

Hopefully today will go by without anyone getting killed and not too many peoples pets murdered on the bonfires.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Ben Shapiro on July 12, 2017, 08:08:22 PM
Shocked so very shocked.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 15, 2017, 12:08:29 PM
Blair still alive and making shit worse.

Starting to worry that next government may be Blair 2: deceitful boogaloo.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2017, 12:41:52 PM
The law has been changed so that the DUP don't have to reveal the highly suspicious donors who funded their pro-Brexit campaign during the referendum.

I think we all know why this is, but for those catching up: it was to get around campaign donation limits on Brexit, likely done at the behest of pro-Brexit Tories, done via a deniable cutout in the Middle East (who are often co-funders for the financial backers of the Tory Party).

The DUP, a bunch of yokels, don't just suddenly get given a little shy of half a million for no reason. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2017, 12:57:57 AM
BTW, there's some serious rioting going on in Dalston right about now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 29, 2017, 01:00:00 AM
Over anything or just a Friday night there?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2017, 01:03:23 AM
Apparently some guy died during arrest by the police last week, so the UK branch of Black Lives Matter were out in force.  Beyond that, I don't know much, except that the situation appears to be spiralling right now

Here's some footage https://twitter.com/m8xyl/status/891045494583152644
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on July 29, 2017, 08:16:55 AM
Police seem to be much better prepared this time around.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 29, 2017, 07:12:13 PM
There looked like an equal or greater number of cops than protesters?

Just saying, I'm all for a fair fight and whatnot but that seems like an excessive response and more a failure at a local level. Not been able to find any coverage, anyone seen any relevant numbers?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2017, 08:35:08 PM
Not seen numbers yet, but I don't know at what point the footage was filmed.  If it had already been going on for a while, no doubt the police called in backup.

What's more surprising is that they were able to get it under control, given 7 years of austerity cuts.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 31, 2017, 01:52:45 PM
After years of cuts and minimal pay rises, I would assume the main perk left to police is the ability to kick the shit out of protesters every now and then while getting overtime pay.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 10, 2017, 02:43:45 PM
Things are going well for the Brexit negotiations

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/09/brexit-political-party-james-chapman-david-davis?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_BaconReader_Premium

QuoteThe former chief of staff to David Davis has said Brexit is a catastrophe, and suggested that Boris Johnson and other leading Brexit campaigners should be jailed for claiming there would be an extra £350m a week for the NHS after the UK left the European Union.

James Chapman, a former special adviser who now works for a public relations firm, expressed his real views about leaving the EU in an online tirade after working for the Brexit secretary for a year at the Department for Exiting the European Union.

QuoteChapman went on to direct a series of tweets at cabinet ministers raising concerns about the impact of Brexit on their department. He asked Karen Bradley, the culture secretary, whether she could "confirm all US broadcasters are moving out of London because of the PM's deranged hard Brexit" and tweeted to Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, asking how millions of British tourists would maintain access to emergency healthcare while in the EU.

In another question directed at Greg Clark, the business secretary, he said: "I know you don't agree with this nonsense, but can you confirm it'll take 7 years to implement alternative Euratom regime?"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 13, 2017, 09:59:09 PM
Reports of Rees-Muppet making a quiet leadership bid while may mea maxima culpas to the party at large for everything being a bit of a shitshow.

The question is, next election this year or next? The real question being who will be left holding the bag for brexit when it comes (or doesn't) as that's the next person out the door.

It's almost impressive, regardless of any decision now made, or even a full u-turn, you're committed to political suicide either way. The timescale just happens to be shorter the higher up you are.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 12:51:29 AM
So are we doing the "UK politicians raping everything" in this thread or a new one?

Same question to the "UK corrupt as fuck for tax evasion" thing.

Also for the record, Fallon, the "Ultra reliable" defence minister gone from government over various allegations and being unable to say how/what many more may yet still come. "Deputy PM" also facing allegations, not gone.... yet.

It's really not about "if" this government collapses anymore, it's a "when". And that When basically comes to 3 categories:

1 - Quick collapse before any solid deal

2 - Slow collapse leading up to or after a deal or no deal is confirmed.

3 - After the official exit date in March.

Bookies not giving good odds on option 3. A couple more resignations and bits of bad news and the odds of 2 are also going to suffer. When the next bit of grenfell news drops, woe betide may if this crap is still in the news.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2017, 03:04:41 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 12:51:29 AM
So are we doing the "UK politicians raping everything" in this thread or a new one?

Same question to the "UK corrupt as fuck for tax evasion" thing.

Also for the record, Fallon, the "Ultra reliable" defence minister gone from government over various allegations and being unable to say how/what many more may yet still come. "Deputy PM" also facing allegations, not gone.... yet.

It's really not about "if" this government collapses anymore, it's a "when". And that When basically comes to 3 categories:

1 - Quick collapse before any solid deal

2 - Slow collapse leading up to or after a deal or no deal is confirmed.

3 - After the official exit date in March.

Bookies not giving good odds on option 3. A couple more resignations and bits of bad news and the odds of 2 are also going to suffer. When the next bit of grenfell news drops, woe betide may if this crap is still in the news.

Who are the contenders for a prison term?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 07, 2017, 08:05:13 AM
There's been so much mental news lately it's hard to keep up.

From what I can tell from the tax evasion stuff nobody's going to prison because a) they're rich and b) it's (in some cases) a bit of a non-story because it's all been done through hedge fund managers who are diversifying assets. Not like the Queen is personally picking all of her investments.

From the rapey politicians... also probably nobody unless some  way more severe and substantiated allegations come out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 11:03:02 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2017, 03:04:41 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 12:51:29 AM
So are we doing the "UK politicians raping everything" in this thread or a new one?

Same question to the "UK corrupt as fuck for tax evasion" thing.

Also for the record, Fallon, the "Ultra reliable" defence minister gone from government over various allegations and being unable to say how/what many more may yet still come. "Deputy PM" also facing allegations, not gone.... yet.

It's really not about "if" this government collapses anymore, it's a "when". And that When basically comes to 3 categories:

1 - Quick collapse before any solid deal

2 - Slow collapse leading up to or after a deal or no deal is confirmed.

3 - After the official exit date in March.

Bookies not giving good odds on option 3. A couple more resignations and bits of bad news and the odds of 2 are also going to suffer. When the next bit of grenfell news drops, woe betide may if this crap is still in the news.

Who are the contenders for a prison term?

Nowadays, pretty much everyone. A couple are going to need to be pilloried and sacrificed so the rest can nod seriously and talk about how everything is now different. Personally, I've got a fiver on Green (Deputy PM) as it just seems inevitable.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2017, 11:35:39 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2017, 03:04:41 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 12:51:29 AM
So are we doing the "UK politicians raping everything" in this thread or a new one?

Same question to the "UK corrupt as fuck for tax evasion" thing.

Also for the record, Fallon, the "Ultra reliable" defence minister gone from government over various allegations and being unable to say how/what many more may yet still come. "Deputy PM" also facing allegations, not gone.... yet.

It's really not about "if" this government collapses anymore, it's a "when". And that When basically comes to 3 categories:

1 - Quick collapse before any solid deal

2 - Slow collapse leading up to or after a deal or no deal is confirmed.

3 - After the official exit date in March.

Bookies not giving good odds on option 3. A couple more resignations and bits of bad news and the odds of 2 are also going to suffer. When the next bit of grenfell news drops, woe betide may if this crap is still in the news.

Who are the contenders for a prison term?

(https://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/received_10100673119167600.jpeg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2017, 12:11:09 PM
I'm also 90% convinced that the only reason the backbenchers haven't already deposed May is that they fear the effects it would have on Brexit, and the possibility of Boris Johnson taking charge of the party.

Speaking of...after his irresponsible comments yesterday, which have likely jepordised the life of Nazanin Ratcliffe, he should not only be sacked as FM, he should be publically tarred and feathered.

Anyway, back to Brexit, I think we stumble along to the point that it becomes clear that we are getting a shit deal or no deal at all.  After that....all bets are off. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on November 07, 2017, 01:16:24 PM
Shit.  Too much going on.  What did I miss in the UK?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2017, 01:26:29 PM
The PM gets a weekly briefing on the various nasty sexual things her MPs are doing.

That list was leaked to the press, along with some people coming forward to confirm allegations.  One Cabinet minister - Michael Fallon, whom I've previously descibed as a "hypocrite" and "moral imbecile" - has resigned as a result of this.  As you can see from the list, there are many more named.

Boris Johnson has falsely said that a British-Iranian woman arrested while holidaying in Iran was "training journalists" there.  She is charged with plotting to overthrow the government of Iran, which could extend to teaching opposition journalists, by Iran's standards.  But she's not there training journalists, she was visiting family.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on November 07, 2017, 02:26:32 PM
Sorry your government sucks almost as much as ours.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 07, 2017, 05:04:36 PM
 :lulz:

Oh that list is gold.

"Liam fox - Adam Werrity".  :lulz:


And Will Wragg.  :lulz:

Can't wait for the lists from other parties.

Labour "Actual communist".
Greens "Has prop of Dr. Strangelove bomb at home. Rides it shouting yahoo."
Ukip "has no swastika tattoos, anywhere."
Lib-dem "Spends off hours beating kittens with rakes".
SNP "Secretly English".
DUP "IRA member. Active."

All these and more will look sensible and mundane by the time this is done.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2017, 06:58:26 PM
I know, right?  That Liam Fox one has to be on purpose, it's just too good.  "No explanations needed, Adam Fucking Werrity, put it on the list and we're done."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 09, 2017, 03:32:24 AM
Priti Patel has also resigned.

It's not clear whether she was off in Israel making foreign policy all on her lonesome, or whether she was off in Israel secretly circumventing the Foreign Office on May's orders to keep them and BoJo out of the loop...but either way, she's gone.

Patel was another one being tipped for a leadership role in a few years time, despite having no discernible leadership qualities, like good policies, common sense or charisma.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 09, 2017, 07:49:36 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 09, 2017, 03:32:24 AM
... despite having no discernible leadership qualities, like good policies, common sense or charisma.

Sigh, she was perfect for leading the tories.

So what exactly was she doing? I've seen mention of "foreign aid to assist in combat operations in golan heights" which to me sounds like an illegal arms deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 09, 2017, 09:18:37 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 09, 2017, 07:49:36 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 09, 2017, 03:32:24 AM
... despite having no discernible leadership qualities, like good policies, common sense or charisma.

Sigh, she was perfect for leading the tories.

So what exactly was she doing? I've seen mention of "foreign aid to assist in combat operations in golan heights" which to me sounds like an illegal arms deal.

To my understanding, no-one's quite sure. Direct questions are being avoided. Which is a surprise.

Also worth noting she's been replaced on the same day. Which is either a planned sacking or quick decision promotion. Or both. Regardless it doesn't bode well for this government as a long term entity. Which has longer term implications around the brexit negotiations. A government collapse prior and replacement with some kind of labour coalition, or even another tory coalition effectively resets any progress that might have been made. Assuming there is any to actually speak of. The exit date remains fixed so it becomes an increasingly impossible task to deal with.

The next bout of elections could be most amusing. Trying to get elected yet remaining away from power due to it essentially being some kind of poisoned chalice.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 09, 2017, 10:41:17 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 09, 2017, 09:18:37 PM
A government collapse prior and replacement with some kind of labour coalition, or even another tory coalition effectively resets any progress that might have been made. Assuming there is any to actually speak of. The exit date remains fixed so it becomes an increasingly impossible task to deal with.


It's like you live at my job or something.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 10, 2017, 02:15:08 AM
Quote from: Faust on November 09, 2017, 07:49:36 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 09, 2017, 03:32:24 AM
... despite having no discernible leadership qualities, like good policies, common sense or charisma.

Sigh, she was perfect for leading the tories.

So what exactly was she doing? I've seen mention of "foreign aid to assist in combat operations in golan heights" which to me sounds like an illegal arms deal.

I believe the idea was to use foreign development and aid money to assist the IDF in building military hospitals in the Occupied Territories, which runs counter to established UK foreign policy, that suggests we have nothing to do with involving ourselves in Israel's idiotic mistakes. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 13, 2017, 12:47:29 PM
Pound is tanking due to rumours of a no confidence vote against May being planned.

If there is a coup being plotted, they need to put up or shut up soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 13, 2017, 02:40:30 PM
If that happens though the DUP might pull the plug, be looking at another election.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 13, 2017, 04:05:29 PM
I know who we could ask for an opinion on that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3PKE8uTSp8).

But yeah.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 13, 2017, 06:09:59 PM
It worked really well, so much clarity, we could do with more clear strong stability.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 14, 2017, 04:48:23 PM
and at last the one we have all been waiting patiently for
todays addition to the No Shit Sherlock file is

https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/facebook-has-finally-opened-the-door-to-admitting-russia?utm_term=.rf67DPEwab#.bww3eK8Vk7

best Theresa May quote evah
Quote"So I have a very simple message for Russia: We know what you are doing and you will not succeed, because you underestimate the resilience of our democracies, the enduring attraction of free and open societies, and the commitment of Western nations to the alliances that bind us."


erm, except for President Donald J Trump and incipient Brexit. A word to the wise, Mrs May - they already bloody well won . . .

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 14, 2017, 05:38:31 PM
ALSO

Quotethe commitment of Western nations to the alliances that bind us

you have to be fucking joking or just utterly utterly oblivious to what you are doing to your country
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2017, 06:04:57 PM
The only thing the UK has going for it right now is that, despite their best efforts, Russia doesn't have any real friends among the big three parties here. 

But thats about it.

And once we're out in the cold, we'll be looking for economic partners to take up the slack.  Cue Russia and China...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 14, 2017, 08:59:53 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2017, 06:04:57 PM
The only thing the UK has going for it right now is that, despite their best efforts, Russia doesn't have any real friends among the big three parties here. 

But thats about it.

And once we're out in the cold, we'll be looking for economic partners to take up the slack.  Cue Russia and China...

Gee Whizz, I can hardly wait . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 14, 2017, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2017, 06:04:57 PM
The only thing the UK has going for it right now is that, despite their best efforts, Russia doesn't have any real friends among the big three parties here. 

But thats about it.

And once we're out in the cold, we'll be looking for economic partners to take up the slack.  Cue Russia and China...

China won a tender to build the first nuclear reactor in the UK in years, there was an argument that depending on an external country to maintain it would be cheaper then building up the knowledge base in the UK, and China said they could build it faster.

It's been delayed massively and China has said sourcing materials is more expensive because of Brexit.

The majority of people are still in favour of leaving the EU. But if it were to go to the polls again and clarify:

Exit EU
Exit Customs Union No / Full / NI to remain semi
Exit Single Energy Market

Do you think it would get any different results?

The republic have said that NI having any kind of a border results in WTO rules and no deal, which is almost a certainty now, but I wish it wasn't my home country having to play the veto card because it makes us look difficult and allows us to be scapegoated.


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 18, 2017, 06:09:58 PM
I think there would be a lot more people in favour of leaving the EU but remaining in the EEA.

Of course, this would just further agitate and annoy the "Hard Brexit Now" crowd, but I do believe they are a minority among leave voters.  While there's a good number of people in this country motivated by immigration, and a good number of those motivated by racism, there's a good amount of misinformation, lies and longstanding tabloid prejudices mixed up in that, and I think some of those people have seen they've been lied to, or that the economic hit will outweigh the benefits.

Staying in the EEA would resolve the vast majority of the territorial problems, both NI and Scotland, resolve the majority of the trade issues and provide a framework for the UK's continuing association with EU bodies in the manner of Norway and Switzerland, thus calming political tensions and foreign investors.

But of course, we've committed ourself to cutting our collective throat, so that's what we're going to do.  I'm just hoping at this point that the EU is being serious about this "continuing EU citizenship" for British citizens business that is being floated.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 18, 2017, 10:03:35 PM
Faust, thoughts on who will succeed Gerry Adams in Sinn Fein next year?  I'm not very familiar with SF's second-tier talent...I was kinda hoping McGuinness and Adams would live forever.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 19, 2017, 01:12:20 AM
Unless something very surprising happens, it will be Mary Lou McDonald as head of SF in the Republic and of SF overall, in Northern Ireland it will be Michelle O'Neill though she is  very inexperienced.

I like Mary Lou, over the past years SF have become our strongest opposition party and they have done a good job of it, but often go for low hanging fruit and very easy contrarian issues.
She is also the logical next step of the peace process and moving past the troubles. Their end goal is obvious: they want a border poll in Northern Ireland to join the Republic, and will leverage the Brexit talks to try and cause it.
There's not a chance of the fence sitting disgruntled unionists swaying to leave the U.K with Gerry in charge, but without him, SF in Northern Ireland will do their best to be the kinder / gentler party, all they need to do is offer a better option then Teresa May and Arlene Forrester and all they seem to be able to offer is a lost decade of Brexit.

In the Republic, SF have their own role, the biggest drawback to SF ever being taken as a serious contender for government was the IRA baggage, the Media, Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael have always used IRA mudslinging to Gerry Adams as a last resort to undermine his credibility, it will be much harder to make it stick with Mary Lou.
This is the best time for Gerry to step away, there will likely be an election here in March/April and giving a few months for Mary Lou to establish herself and lead the party well and they could well get a small minority government propped up by independents which is roughly what we have now but slightly left of centre as opposed to right of centre.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2017, 08:41:20 PM
Interesting, thanks.  I have to admit, I skimmed the Wikipedia article on Mary Lou McDonald and it didn't inspire a great deal of confidence...but of course, it could always be much, much worse.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 19, 2017, 09:16:55 PM
She's the least worst option, the controversies section on her wiki page is that she defends IRA members which will be standard for the course with any member of SF.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2017, 09:43:21 PM
Oh yes, it was more the selling merchandise thing.  I expect the supporting thing, but a little bit of good taste can go a long way.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 20, 2017, 09:15:54 AM
She's not in the least bit classy, she appeals to a very low mentality that glorify the IRA as hero's that could do no wrong. Normally that is teenagers but a small subset of people don't grow out of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 28, 2017, 10:29:46 AM
So yeah, what I didn't want to happen, happened. The republic is playing the veto card because May wont commit to what her policy is on the Northern Ireland border, so far we have had:

We've been accused of making demands of the UK, trying to derail brexit, and being uppity Irish who don't know better so we should just defer to our UK superiors better knowledge.
Despite the fact that the only statement our ministers have had has been repeatedly hammered home:
"We will not progress to the next phase until the UK commits to its border strategy". We're not even pushing for any of the three options above (but the hard border would make negotiation difficult), it has literally just been a case of "PICK ONE".


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 28, 2017, 03:25:03 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 28, 2017, 10:29:46 AM

We've been accused of making demands of the UK, trying to derail brexit, and being uppity Irish who don't know better so we should just defer to our UK superiors better knowledge.


That almost even sounds like the British.  Needs more sneering condescension, though.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 29, 2017, 07:56:23 AM
To be fair that was from the likes of UKIP, the sun and some member of the UUP
But it worries me that this will become the accepted rhetoric for the talks.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4940971/irelands-naive-young-prime-minister-should-shut-his-gob-on-brexit-and-grow-up/

https://twitter.com/gerardbattenmep/status/934821820859068417

There was another kipper then trying to pull a trump and suggesting that the Republic would have to pay for a border with Northern Ireland.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 29, 2017, 08:16:36 AM
This is going to be a world first: we're going to completely fuck our own country over and slide into some kind of protofascism out of the sheer resentment of fucking ourselves somehow, amazingly, not making our situation better.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 29, 2017, 08:52:50 AM
That's what it seems like, a schizo self harming mess that meets its own internal debate with "You lost" (in relation to the Brexit referendum), mirroring the same exact interactions from the lobotomites from /t/The_donald, how can anything meaningful come come of that?

Even at the high levels, the UK should be forming a coherent strategy from the different parts of the Union:
I was completely for Scottish independence and I like sturgeon a lot, but I've lost a lot of respect for her lately as she's taken to shitting on England as much as she can, instead of making suggestions on the negotiations and fleshing out what the UK should look like after Brexit. If anything its probably the biggest opportunity for the Scots to shape the union to something more like what they want to see, but instead they squander it with contrarian antics, like a bickering couple in a loveless marriage.

I can't really blame May for becoming completely detached from reality either, everyone she is interacting with is pushing their shitty agenda or contradicting her suggestions, her own party are using all of this to play power games for her seat, which no one wanted a year ago. She is reliant on the DUP time travelers from the dark ages to keep her tenuous grasp on power. If she can't get her own party let alone the houses of parliament to decide on what Brexit should be, I suppose it's impossible for her to communicate that to the people she's actually supposed to be negotiating with in the EU block.

The DUP thing makes me worried, Northern Ireland enters direct rule in a few days because they have failed to form a government, but May needs the DUP in power to sustain their government, which means she can't call an election again in Northern Ireland without collapsing her own government, which means direct rule could be in NI for the foreseeable future, regardless of borders etc, that's likely the biggest threat to the peace process right now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 30, 2017, 02:29:08 AM
Quote from: Faust on November 29, 2017, 07:56:23 AM
To be fair that was from the likes of UKIP, the sun and some member of the UUP
But it worries me that this will become the accepted rhetoric for the talks.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4940971/irelands-naive-young-prime-minister-should-shut-his-gob-on-brexit-and-grow-up/

https://twitter.com/gerardbattenmep/status/934821820859068417

There was another kipper then trying to pull a trump and suggesting that the Republic would have to pay for a border with Northern Ireland.

Good lord, he sounds just like Trump.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 30, 2017, 01:27:39 PM
Alot of the Kippers do like Trump.  I mean, just look at Farage.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 01, 2017, 03:31:04 PM
Mays position is rough, she has three sets of demands on her in relation to the negotiations (on a single issue)
-Irish Government: NI stays in customs union (basically)
-British Government: UK leaves customs union
-DUP: NI follows rest of UK

I don't see the Irish Government backing down, definitely don't see the UK staying in the customs union which leaves her in the position that she needs to fuck the DUP under the bus (best place for them), but doing so collapses her government and an election could well end up with a Corbyn led gov.

Now here is a funny thing, SF could well end up being approached on a confidence and supply arrangement with the Tories to prop up their government, which would be an unholy alliance if ever there was one, unless she can find enough members of the SNP and Labour willing to hold the bandages on the government long enough to get negotiations finished.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 04, 2017, 05:04:27 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 30, 2017, 01:27:39 PM
Alot of the Kippers do like Trump.  I mean, just look at Farage.

He's ideal for them, really.  Profoundly brain damaged Hitler.  He's what they've always wanted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 04, 2017, 05:27:23 AM
Farage was whining on TV yesterday that he wasn't going to give up his EU pension because "why should my family suffer?"

His boundless narcissism really has no limits.

Also note: he was a commodities trader before going into politics.  In other words, his "family" (his German wife has left him and he's currently messing around with some French girlfriend) isn't going to suffer by losing out on a 70K pension regardless.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 04, 2017, 08:06:23 AM
He's fighting back on the first step because if the the pensions go, right to property and so on is on the table.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 04, 2017, 08:22:43 PM
What do you make of todays dumpster fire Cain?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 04, 2017, 11:58:57 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 04, 2017, 08:22:43 PM
What do you make of todays dumpster fire Cain?

What happened?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 05, 2017, 08:11:10 AM
Today was the day that the initial set of negotiations would have been agreed upon, of which one of the big sticking issues is the border in Northern Ireland.

Theresa May, who's Tory government is propped up by the DUP who are time traveling Northern Ireland racists from the 1800 made a proposal to keep NI in the customs union (IE allow free trade and movement from the EU), avoiding any kind of border in NI, which in looked really good for the republic, and for the North. This looked like a done deal, May, the EU president and our own Taoiseach were set to make a big announcement that talks were moving forward.

On the speculation of this alone, Scotland insisted that should NI have special status there is no reason why any other part of the UK couldn't have the same arrangement and wanted it for them (this would result in either a border between Scotland and England, or the UK being completely unable to control migration which is what a lot of this whole Brexit shite was about. OK fine it Results in Hadrians wall  being rebuilt for the first time since the Romans but whatever.

Then London City chimed in saying they would also want the same deal as 90% of their trade is finance and international commerce. This would require London becoming a walled city or again completely invalidate the control of migration.

Not to mention the fact that May's own party were horrified at the prospect of parts of the UK's trade and travel still being dictated by Europe, and are now after her head.

But either way it didn't matter, because in making the deal either Theresa May didn't tell her partners in government the DUP what she had proposed or they got cold feet in the last five minutes and pulled the plug.

So no deal was reached, literally everyone was unhappy and it will be very unlikely May's government will last another week, if the DUP don't pull the plug, her own party might without her.
There is until the 14th to get a deal agreed upon, the likely outcome of failing to do so is the UK ends up on WTO rules, and Northern Ireland goes back to the bad old days of British soldiers shooting children and drunken mongoloid IRA "Freedom fighters" blowing up innocents.

The worst is, it came tantalizingly close to being OK. Let's see how the next week plays out maybe there is still some hope in this.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 05, 2017, 02:22:22 PM
I had to take it in while sleep deprived, as yesterday was my switch around day, but dumpster fire is pretty accurate.

We've also reached the point in the Brexit negotiations where we can't make offers without pissing off sizeable and powerful constituences ie we can please Ireland, but at the cost of the DUP (and thus government stability) and Scotland.

Also Arlene Foster is now basically our PM.

The deal with NI, while ideal, opens so many dangerous doors though.  Scotland and London of course said "why not us as well" and aside from the Irish Sea, there is no major compelling difference.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Loyalists nutters arguing this means making NI part of Ireland by other means, and since Loyalists exert a strong influence on the UK far right, this would likely be considered a "betrayal of Brexit" by Britain First, UKIP etc...though that may not fly as well since most of England doesn't give a fuck about Wales, Scotland and especially Ireland at the best of times.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 05, 2017, 05:44:02 PM
Holy shit!   :lulz:

What the hell happened?  Just a few years ago, we were all doing fine.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on December 05, 2017, 07:47:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on December 05, 2017, 05:44:02 PM
Holy shit!   :lulz:

What the hell happened?  Just a few years ago, we were all doing fine.

Basically all the xenophobic politicians decided to play a huge game of "Touched it last" at the same time as a game of "Stick your dick in the beehive". They decided that everyone else HAS to play and the rules are they win.

The other politicians went along with it to shut them up as they were REALLY into dicks in beehives and just wouldn't shut up.

The rest you know.

Oh for the yesteryears of simple austerity, corruption and outright lies, asset stripping. Now Austerity is complicated to the point the government poverty committee quit. Bribes are required to cross bridges. Damien Green (Among others) literally wanks for a living and there are very few assets left to strip.

Add your own strong and stable joke at your leisure.


I'm kind of expecting a government collapse immenintly, if for no other reason than it may end up giving corbyn a paltry majority with questionable allies. When brexit goes wrong (as it inevitably will due to the very fucking nature of the idea, regardless of who you put in charge of it) he gets to take the blame, allies turn and it's these clowns again for X years.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 05, 2017, 09:56:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 29, 2017, 08:16:36 AM
This is going to be a world first: we're going to completely fuck our own country over and slide into some kind of protofascism out of the sheer resentment of fucking ourselves somehow, amazingly, not making our situation better.

Way ahead of you.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on December 06, 2017, 02:22:53 PM
Impact assessments? Who needs 'em?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 06, 2017, 02:30:38 PM
That was a chilling revelation.
Does it indicate willful arrogance, or that they know doing those impact studies will all return "Nothing good can come of this"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 06, 2017, 02:41:21 PM
Funny how the Tories were able to use the sectoral analysis to assess the impact of leaving, but no-one else is allowed to see the analysis to make their own assessments.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 06, 2017, 02:47:07 PM
If people push hard enough, campaign to find out where those recommendations and figures came from, what the Tories have been basing all this on, a freedom of information request will eventually lead to the Tory chamber of secrets, held pristine under a glass dome, is a pawed photo of a bus that says they will get 350 million on the side of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 06, 2017, 04:47:00 PM
According to a senior civil servant who has seen over half of the sector analyses, the government decided not to bother with doing impact assessments because it would be too much work.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 07, 2017, 09:33:21 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 06, 2017, 04:47:00 PM
According to a senior civil servant who has seen over half of the sector analyses, the government decided not to bother with doing impact assessments because it would be too much work.

Is that because the sector analyses are so rough that it was safe to assume what the impact assessments would say, or was it that no sector analysis was done at all?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 07, 2017, 11:17:14 AM
I think basically all the sector analyses said because of the large volume of trade with the EU there would definitely be an impact, but the government claims because of the large number of variables in outcome it would be impossible to say what this impact would be.

Which I think is pretty much bullshit.  You have 5 ranges of potential outcome: what you want, what you think the EU wants (keep this classified, of course), what would happen if the UK stayed in the EU, what would happen if the UK stayed in the EEA and what happens if we crash out without a deal at all.  Doesn't cover all possible outcomes of course, but it covers the most likely and gives a broad idea of economic impact.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 07, 2017, 11:39:25 AM
It would at least put a concrete figure on [MONEY IN] from the EU and [MONEY OUT] and show if there is a net gain or loss from subsidies. That wouldn't even be a hard one to put together.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 17, 2018, 11:20:30 PM
Keep an eye on this.  If there's no local authority or Parliamentary intervention on this, expect it to be done elsewhere

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42726315

QuoteResidents of a privately-owned London tower block with the same cladding as Grenfell Tower may be forced to pay up to £2m for replacement panels.

Citiscape in Croydon was one of 228 buildings across the country to fail fire safety tests set up in the wake of the disaster which claimed 71 lives.

With 95 flats affected, each household share could be between £13,300 and £31,300, to be paid in instalments.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 30, 2018, 11:27:41 AM
Buzzfeed got a hold (https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-governments-own-brexit-analysis-says-the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.hcgKOWwNl7#.uhnlDNpYM5) of government's EU exit analysis and...well boys and girls, no matter what, it's going to hurt.

Continued EEA access will see a projected 2% drop in growth. 

Leaving the EU entirely but signing a comprehensive free trade deal is projected to see a 5% drop.

And reverting to WTO trade rules (aka the "no deal" option) will see a projected 8% drop in growth.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 30, 2018, 01:11:20 PM
But the side of the bus said it would be better now
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 30, 2018, 02:37:59 PM
Our most vocal Brexit proponents are very clear in what they want (https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/heres-a-leaked-whatsapp-chat-showing-tory-leavers-confusion?utm_term=.ivZOPA0NL#.dszXQdkNb), I'll have you know.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on March 20, 2018, 03:16:04 PM
How is Corbyn managing to make such spectacularly unpopular points about this russian poisoning business?

I mean he's right in a way - everyone does just seem to have jumped to conclusions and an independant review is a good idea.

But it's not a good look acting wobbly on people being poisoned in the middle of London.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 20, 2018, 05:16:39 PM
Corbyn could make free blowjobs sound unappealing. The dude has the charisma of a puddle of shit and none of the plus points. To be fair, tho, Zombie Thatcher is making even more of an arse of herself, practically begging "britain's many allies" to hang her shithole country out to dry. Should have passed it off as a terrorist attack and rammed another couple of surveillance bills through parliament but, no, she had to go and pick a fight with superpower actual :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 20, 2018, 05:22:07 PM
Its not like she has anything else to occupy her or that urgently needs her attention...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 20, 2018, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 20, 2018, 05:22:07 PM
Its not like she has anything else to occupy her or that urgently needs her attention...

Well nothing she can do anything to fix anyway
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2018, 05:37:57 PM
Yeah, aside from a brief moment during the aftermath of the general election, Corbyn has never been very good at the whole media thing.

Also, there is the fact that as Leader of the Opposition, he's actually not entitled to secret briefings regarding affairs of state.  Whether or not he actually gets them is up to the discretion of the PM and I believe, in this case, he was actually not briefed on whatever was shared at the COBRA Committee meeting.

I mean, we should probably wait for the OPCW's report before we bring out the heavy guns on the issue, just to cover our own backs and make it clear that, unlike Russia, we actually give a shit about international laws and institutions, at least to an extent more than Russia does (and as a subtle reminder that while the UK is leaving the EU, it is still part of a vast range of such bodies and alliances and so isn't simply acting unilaterally).  On the other hand, the possibility of anyone except Russia using a Russian nerve agent to kill an ex-Russian spy who turned traitor seems perishingly small, so I can also see why people feel Corbyn is being unnecessarily nitpicky.

At the very least the UK should be looking to revoke the broadcast licences of RT and Sputnik and pass an equivalent to the Maginstky Act to seize the assets of ill-gotten Russian wealth. And even though Chinese epsionage is more pervasive, Russia needs to be designated the top state security threat by MI5 and MI6, and the NCA needs to place a higher priority on Russian organised crime and money laundering, which is an often used cut-out for FSB active measures overseas.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 19, 2018, 01:52:34 PM
So, the government has been attempting to deport legal citizens because they cannot meet the insane requirements set by the Home Office to "prove" they have the right to live in this country.  In addition to that, legal immigrants have been denied jobs, access to welfare and services for the same reason.

Given our current PM was the last Home Secretary, this is not a good look.

Also, UK police turned down a request by the French to raid the offices of Lycamobile, who are suspected to be involved in money laundering for organised crime.  When asked why by the French, the FCO mentioned that Lycamobile are financial supporters of both the Tory Party and donate generously to The Prince's Trust.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 19, 2018, 01:56:09 PM
Worth mentioning at least one person has possibly died as a result of the government's policy here

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/18/mother-of-windrush-citizen-blames-passport-problems-for-his-death

QuoteThe mother of a Windrush citizen who died suddenly last month after being classified as an illegal immigrant and sacked from his job believes the stress caused by his immigration problems was responsible for his death.

Dexter Bristol, who was 57 when he died, moved from Grenada to the UK when he was eight in 1968, to join his mother who was working as an NHS nurse, and spent the rest of his life in the UK. He was sacked from his cleaning job last year because he had no passport, and was denied benefits because officials did not believe he was in the country legally.

He spent the last year of life trying to untangle his immigration situation, repeatedly attempting and failing to get the Home Office to acknowledge that he was not an illegal immigrant. Until he was sacked, he had no idea there was any problem with his immigration status.

He was born a British subject in Grenada, but had never been able to get a British passport, and struggled to gather the extensive documentation required by officials to prove that he was not an overstayer. On 31 March he collapsed in the street outside his home and died. Ahead of an upcoming inquest, the cause of death is unknown.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 19, 2018, 04:56:57 PM
One step away from full blown Papers, Please levels of insanity.

So the policy is now openly to support money laundering and tax evasion, its the Brexit survival strategy as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 19, 2018, 11:33:11 PM
Quote from: Faust on April 19, 2018, 04:56:57 PM
One step away from full blown Papers, Please levels of insanity.

So the policy is now openly to support money laundering and tax evasion, its the Brexit survival strategy as far as I can tell.

The truth is out now. London moves from de-facto to full blown tax haven. Rest of the country burns. Business as usual, just a little more up front.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 19, 2018, 11:37:18 PM
Yeah, I've been pretty much expecting that too.  Especially given the Carribbean tax-haven to London funny money pipeline.

Of course, part of the value of the UK in that role is it's membership in the EU, once the money comes into the London banks, it will funnel through the entire EEC with no barriers.  After Brexit...well, there's a lot of Russians with Maltese passports these days.  We may have to settle for laundering money for shitshow regimes and criminal syndicates unable to crack the EU market.

And of course, the more we do that, the more suspicious the EU will be of our banks...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2018, 12:53:11 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 19, 2018, 01:52:34 PM
So, the government has been attempting to deport legal citizens because they cannot meet the insane requirements set by the Home Office to "prove" they have the right to live in this country.  In addition to that, legal immigrants have been denied jobs, access to welfare and services for the same reason.

Given our current PM was the last Home Secretary, this is not a good look.

Also, UK police turned down a request by the French to raid the offices of Lycamobile, who are suspected to be involved in money laundering for organised crime.  When asked why by the French, the FCO mentioned that Lycamobile are financial supporters of both the Tory Party and donate generously to The Prince's Trust.

We have a fucktard state-level congressman that wants legal immigrants to have a yellow star on their driver's licenses.

Not even kidding.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Bruno on April 20, 2018, 08:07:57 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2018, 12:53:11 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 19, 2018, 01:52:34 PM
So, the government has been attempting to deport legal citizens because they cannot meet the insane requirements set by the Home Office to "prove" they have the right to live in this country.  In addition to that, legal immigrants have been denied jobs, access to welfare and services for the same reason.

Given our current PM was the last Home Secretary, this is not a good look.

Also, UK police turned down a request by the French to raid the offices of Lycamobile, who are suspected to be involved in money laundering for organised crime.  When asked why by the French, the FCO mentioned that Lycamobile are financial supporters of both the Tory Party and donate generously to The Prince's Trust.

We have a fucktard state-level congressman that wants legal immigrants to have a yellow star on their driver's licenses.

Not even kidding.

Do what now?  :?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 20, 2018, 11:09:35 AM
Yeah, I saw that.

I'm convinced 5 years from now we're going to look back on now as the golden years by comparison.  What's coming next, is going to be fucking terrible.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 20, 2018, 11:29:57 AM
Jesus Christ, the "go home vans" that May approved of as part of the "hostile environment" policy was called Operation Vaken.

Vaken means "vigilant"...in Old Norse.  Who the fuck names operations against immigrants in Old Norse, other than people who jack off to Nazis?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 20, 2018, 02:08:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 20, 2018, 11:29:57 AM
Jesus Christ, the "go home vans" that May approved of as part of the "hostile environment" policy was called Operation Vaken.

Vaken means "vigilant"...in Old Norse.  Who the fuck names operations against immigrants in Old Norse, other than people who jack off to Nazis?

The only other group I can think of is actual Nazi's.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 20, 2018, 04:31:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 20, 2018, 11:09:35 AM
Yeah, I saw that.

I'm convinced 5 years from now we're going to look back on now as the golden years by comparison.  What's coming next, is going to be fucking terrible.

This, sadly
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 21, 2018, 03:07:52 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 20, 2018, 11:29:57 AM
Jesus Christ, the "go home vans" that May approved of as part of the "hostile environment" policy was called Operation Vaken.

Vaken means "vigilant"...in Old Norse.  Who the fuck names operations against immigrants in Old Norse, other than people who jack off to Nazis?


You're fucking having me on.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 21, 2018, 02:42:54 PM
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/operation-vaken-evaluation-report

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vaken
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 21, 2018, 05:39:51 PM
 :eek:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 21, 2018, 08:28:38 PM
 :lulz: :horrormirth: :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on April 30, 2018, 02:56:14 AM
Holy shit Amber Rudd actually quit.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 30, 2018, 04:45:40 AM
Quote from: Vanadium Gryllz on April 30, 2018, 02:56:14 AM
Holy shit Amber Rudd actually quit.

I am not terribly shocked.  She just got left holding the bag.

I mean, she's no angel herself, but I'd quit, too.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 30, 2018, 04:06:54 PM
Sajid Javid to replace her.

Not exactly an improvement, but not exactly worse either...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 10, 2018, 02:51:51 PM
I saw this and it got my goat though I am fairly certain it's trolling.

https://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkpolitics/articles.html?read_full=13538

I know this is some deluded alternate reality the author is living and there are very few people would think the same. I decided to take him literally and respond to what the Republic would require to "Come home", sent this on but the comments aren't showing.

A modest proposal: here is what I as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland would require to consider the unification of the two nations

Immediate dismantling and renunciation of the monarchy, this concept is outdated and holds connections to Britain's colonial past. In a democratic society a monarchy cannot exist, the same goes for all nobility and the House of Lords, even in a ceremonial form they are a symbol of what the world should now have overcome, not something to be proud of.

Immediate nuclear disarmament, withdrawal of all troops and cessation of any acts of war, the UK would require a stance of neutrality in all conflicts. A good will gesture to this could be to dismantle the British army.

Proportional representation, a constitution of the state that must be changed by referendum and the four freedoms of Europe, free travel and right to work, to be honest without membership of the EU the UK doesn't look very attractive.

Reparations for all colonial atrocities, as well as returning all plundered museum pieces to their rightful countries.

A clean energy policy and a shutdown of all nuclear power plants.

Elimination of the term Britain or the United Kingdom, instead we should find a name for our new shared cultural identity that people don't associate with imperialism.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2018, 01:55:56 AM
From the first paragraph of the link:

BRITAIN is unique among the great nations of Europe. It has neither fought to forge its borders, nor have its borders been drawn by another power.

wat
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 11, 2018, 03:50:42 AM
Scottish Tories, urgh.

They're sadly not joking.  As you may recall, I used to run in these circles while doing...business...and they are legitimately this crazy
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 15, 2018, 07:25:32 PM
Everything about the "Great Repeal Bill" sets my teeth on edge.  It's a blatant power grab, devolving all current EU powers to Parliament once the UK exits the EU (which is fair enough) but also allowing all of those powers to be amended by secondary legislation, meaning that government ministers, not Parliament, can change those laws on a whim (which is a fucking terrible idea).

So I'm glad to see that the government reneged on a deal it made with pro-EU Tories at the last minute, now calling the vote into doubt.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 17, 2018, 06:14:20 PM
Trying to avoid posting in this thread because I don't want people to think I am Britain bashing. I wouldn't be surprised if the grand repeal bill allows abitrary changes of the law from now until Teresa May declares herself Lord Protector and  or one the three stooges (Boris/Mogg/Gove).

The negotiations have been incredibly frustrating. Or Just incredible in general, we can't trust a word out of Mays mouth. She has committed to the Republic  of Ireland and the EU that there will be no border in Northern Ireland. Committed to the DUP that there will be no regulatory divergence from the rest of the UK, in her own party she has committed to every variant of what the Brexit would be. She committed to the backstop to the EU and Ireland then rejected it saying it needs to be for a limited time (so she can just renege on it at her leisure)?
If we can't get a hard set in stone commitment on the border, its unlikely the negotiations will complete (WTO scenario).

So obviously she can't please everyone, for a while it looked like this wasn't just game playing, it was more a schizo monstrosity trying to negotiate internally and externally. But it looks like that was just some kind of tactic.
Then I saw this:
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0615/970823-tony-connelly-brexit/

So it looks like the UK went around back channels to member states in the EU to try and put pressure on the Republic to drop the border issue. No official response has been made yet, but I would hope that it will be in support of Ireland, that as a member state our interests will be supported and game playing roman court backstab politics by a nation that's planning to leave will be rejected.

The worst is, I see all this peevishness leading to the worst possible outcome. WTO is bad for the EU as well, but how can you negotiate an agreement with someone who consistently lies and tries to undermine the negotiation by playing games?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 22, 2018, 05:29:35 PM
Bash Britain all you like, the way we're carrying on we deserve it.

So, Parliament decided to hand over all power on what the Brexit deal will be, if there is one, to the government.  It's an extraordinary neglect of duty which may only be off-set by the possibility that the government is going to shaft the Brexit ultras in the near future (indications are current concessions are designed to mollify the extremist fringe).

A BBC journalist has also alleged that the UK government has not been entirely cooperative with the strands of the Mueller inquiry here (such as the new allegation that Cambridge Analytica had the Clinton emails a month before Wikileaks released them) and that this is because the UK is holding out on the promise of a free trade deal with the USA.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 22, 2018, 09:57:48 PM
Airbus announcement seems to be causing an awful lot of consternation in government.  But why, if everything's going so well?

Have I mentioned I'm buying at least 3 weeks worth of food, water and medical supplies to prepare for Brexit?  I'm talking if there is no deal made by mid-January, I am ordering as much canned food and bottles as I can fit into my flat.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 22, 2018, 09:58:51 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 22, 2018, 09:57:48 PM
Airbus announcement seems to be causing an awful lot of consternation in government.  But why, if everything's going so well?

Have I mentioned I'm buying at least 3 weeks worth of food, water and medical supplies to prepare for Brexit?  I'm talking if there is no deal made by mid-January, I am ordering as much canned food and bottles as I can fit into my flat.


What happens if there's no deal?  It doesn't happen, or it happens so bad that Lord Humongous looks like a reasonable candidate?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 22, 2018, 10:05:50 PM
If there's no deal, the UK defaults to WTO organisation rules for imports.  So, that's an automatic 20% on everything from Europe.

In addition to that, the government is preparing for a scenario where transit lorries are backed up in Calais and on UK motorways, as new customs rules come into force.  Due to "just in time" inventory management, shops put in the orders for new produce as needed.  They have giant warehouses out in the countryside, of course, but once those are depleted, we're dependent on trade moving to replenish those stocks, and we won't have it.  And the minute there is a whiff of disruption, the shops will be sold out (see how the UK reacts to snow, by way of example.  Bread and milk just vanish for the next few days).

If there is no deal, sterling will also likely further decrease in value.  So in addition to the 20% tariff, it will cost more to buy food and drink.

And there will likely be civil unrest if this happens.  There will be protestors out on the streets, and counter-protestors looking for "traitors" and "wreckers" to take their anger out on.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 22, 2018, 10:08:47 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 22, 2018, 10:05:50 PM
If there's no deal, the UK defaults to WTO organisation rules for imports.  So, that's an automatic 20% on everything from Europe.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

QuoteIn addition to that, the government is preparing for a scenario where transit lorries are backed up in Calais and on UK motorways, as new customs rules come into force.  Due to "just in time" inventory management, shops put in the orders for new produce as needed.  They have giant warehouses out in the countryside, of course, but once those are depleted, we're dependent on trade moving to replenish those stocks, and we won't have it.  And the minute there is a whiff of disruption, the shops will be sold out (see how the UK reacts to snow, by way of example.  Bread and milk just vanish for the next few days).

If there is no deal, sterling will also likely further decrease in value.  So in addition to the 20% tariff, it will cost more to buy food and drink.

And there will likely be civil unrest if this happens.  There will be protestors out on the streets, and counter-protestors looking for "traitors" and "wreckers" to take their anger out on.


Bad day to be of, say, Pakistani heritage, I'm thinking.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 22, 2018, 10:11:24 PM
Yes, but probably a bad day to have any kind of accent.  The Daily Mail is arguing that we should expel all the estimated 3.8 million EU citizens who live here currently (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5871947/3-8million-EU-migrants-allowed-stay-Brexit-bring-families.html)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 22, 2018, 10:14:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 22, 2018, 10:11:24 PM
Yes, but probably a bad day to have any kind of accent.  The Daily Mail is arguing that we should expel all the estimated 3.8 million EU citizens who live here currently (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5871947/3-8million-EU-migrants-allowed-stay-Brexit-bring-families.html)

Yes, in a similar vein, the majority of the US population wants to move 11.3 million people all at once.  The dumber you get, the more vicious you get.  Or maybe it's the other way around.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 28, 2018, 04:29:41 PM
So today May claimed Ireland is violating the Good Friday agreement by "trying to divide the United Kingdom", by... holding the UK to the obligations of the agreement they made? Ireland and Europe are making physical preparations for WTO scenario, lining up port expansions, extra ferries (which would still be a shambles for the republic cost of goods transport).
And speaking of WTO: Reese Mogg literally said he would "stare down Ireland in this game of chicken", and that the border issue is entirely demanded on our side and that in a WTO scenario the UK would just not have customs checks in Northern Ireland...

Under WTO there is the most favored  nation clause. If they have 0 tariffs with the EU, the max tariffs (and never mind freedom of movement needing to be maintained) in and out for any other WTO nation they could apply is 0.

I was at a wedding at the weekend in London, there were a few Tories there who seemed to think they had this magical ace card to play: "We wont have the NI issue because NI will have rejoined the republic".
I wasn't expecting that from a Tory, but they are out of their minds if they think that will work, firstly it requires a border poll north and south and there is a very strong chance one or both would reject it, never mind the fact that reunification would take years and likely lead to the republic needing to go to the IMF again because the North is one of the poorest places in Europe and could Bankrupt the republic.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 29, 2018, 02:40:40 AM
Not to mention the Loyalist terrorism blowback that would result from this (which would feed nicely into the Loyalist/mainland far-right links).

Quite frankly, the Tories are delusional when it comes to Northern Ireland.  Completely, 100% delusional.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 04, 2018, 07:08:53 PM
Robert Peston has sources on the Brexit deal:

https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2093159307675470/

QuoteThis is one of the more important notes I've written recently, because it contains what well-placed sources tell me are the main elements of the Prime Minister's Brexit plan - which will be put to her cabinet for approval on Friday.

I would characterise the kernel of what she wants as the softest possible Brexit, subject to driving only the odd coach over her self-imposed red lines, as opposed to the full coach and horses.

And I will start with my habitual apology: some of what follows is arcane, technical and - yes - a bit boring. But it matters.

Let's start with the PM's putative third way on a customs arrangement with the EU, which has been billed by her Downing Street officials as an almalgam of the best bits of the two precursor plans, the New Customs Partnership (NCP) and Maximum Facilitation (Max Fac).

Last night I described this supposed third way as largely the NCP rebranded - which prompted howls of outrage from one Downing Street official.

But I stand by what I said. Because the new proposal of the PM and her officials, led on this by Olly Robbins, retains the NCP's most controversial element, namely that the UK would at its borders collect duties on imports at the rate of the European Union's common customs tariff.

The UK would in that sense be the EU's tax collector. And although the UK would have the right to negotiate trade agreements with third countries where tariffs could be different from the EU's or zero, companies in the UK importing from those countries would have to claim back the difference from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC), much in the way they currently claim or pay different VAT rates when trading with the EU.

The reason why, from a bureaucratic if not economic viewpoint, the UK would in effect remain in the EU's customs union is that there is no other way of avoiding border checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Or at least that is what the PM and her officials now believe.

To be clear, this would be an asymmetric agreement with the EU: Theresa May may ask EU governments to collect customs duties on behalf of the UK from companies based in their respective countries, but she knows they will respond with a decisive no, nay, never.

Which may seem unfair. But actually this would only be a problem if there were an imminent prospect of a future British government wanting to impose higher tariffs than EU ones. And certainly the political climate now - outside of Trumpian America - is for lower tariffs.

Just to be clear, there will be some of Max Fac in this new synthesised customs plan: IT and camera technology employed to reduce the bureaucracy and frictions of cross-border trade.

But the True Brexiters won't be wholly relaxed (ahem) by what they are likely to see as NCP by another name.

And there's more, of course.

Because frictionless trade and an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic cannot just be achieved by aligning customs collection rates.

It also requires alignment of product standards, for goods and agricultural products.

Or at least that is what the PM will insist on with her Cabinet colleagues.

And that alignment would in effect replicate membership of the single market for goods and agri-foods.

Which would see European standards and law continuing, ad infinitum, to hold sway over British manufacturing and food production - though the ultimate court of appeal in commercial disputes. would, in May's and Robbins's formulation, be an extra-territorial international court, like the European Free Trade Area's EFTA court.

Given that the ECJ would still have a locus below this final adjudicating tribunal, I assume the True Brexiters such as Jacob Rees-Mogg will be unamused.

But maybe they would take comfort that a British parliament could always withdraw from the trading arrangement, if there were concerns that the rest of the EU was discriminating against the UK.

At this juncture you are saying, I am sure, "oi! what about services?" - given that the UK is largely a service economy (80% of our economic output, our GDP, is generated by service businesses).

Well there is an aspiration to maximise access to the EU's giant market for services by aligning professional and quality standards, for example.

But equally there is a pragmatic recognition that maximising such access would require minimising restrictions on EU citizens moving to the UK to live and work; there is a calculation by Robbins and his officials that, among the EU's so-called four freedoms, free movement of services and free movement of people are pragmatically connected.

And since the PM has pledged to impose new controls on the free movement of people from the rest of the EU, she accepts that the EU will insist on some new restrictions on the sale of British services in its marketplace.

But May and her ministers are hopeful there is a deal to be done here, a trade-off: preferential rights offered to EU citizens to live and work in the UK, compared to the rights available to citizens from the rest of the world, for improved market access in Europe for British service companies.

We'll see.

In the round, you may conclude - as I have - that Theresa May wants a future commercial arrangement with the EU that is not as deep and intimate as Norway's, but is not a million miles from Switzerland's.

From which there follow two crucial if obvious questions.

Will the EU - its chief negotiator Michel Barnier and the 27 government heads - bite or balk?

If Barnier's word was gospel on this, the plan would be dead at birth, because it does put a wedge between the four freedoms: May wants complete freedom of movement for goods (and capital), but restrictions on people.

May's bet is that his employers, the 27 prime ministers and presidents, will be less dogmatic.

But what about her own cabinet and parliamentary party?

If they are in the True Brexit camp, like Davis, Johnson, Fox, and Gove, won't they cry "infamy, infamy, etc", threaten resignation and launch a coup to oust the PM?

Well, what the PM will say to them is that her deal, she believes, is the only one around that stands even the faintest chance of being agreed in Brussels (though, to repeat, you would be right to be sceptical of that).

Which carries a momentous implication - namely that if they reject her vision of Brexit, the default option of exiting the EU without a deal would become the sole option.

And although many True Brexiters would say "hip hip for that", if a no-deal Brexit were to become the only game in town, there would be a revolt of MPs and Lords against the executive, against the PM and her government.

Parliament would - almost certainly - reject exiting the EU without a deal and could, probably would, vote for the UK to join the European Economic Area and remain in the EU's single market.

That would, for most True Brexiters, turn the UK into what they call a "vassal state".

So come Friday, Johnson, Davis, Fox and Gove face an agonising choice: agree to a Brexit plan from May which will stick in their craws like a rotting mackerel head; or reject it and take the risk that what follows is almost their worst nightmare, not a clean no-deal Brexit, but the detested "Brino", or Brexit in name only.

Of course there is always a chance that if they shout and scream loudly enough, May will buckle - and will allow the cabinet to agree on obfuscation for the White Paper on her Brexit negotiating position, to be published 12 July, rather than a clear and unambiguous plan to be put to the EU, of the sort I've described.

If that were to happen, her authority would be undermined, perhaps fatally. And the possibility of there being no deal with the EU, on divorce and future relationship, would become a serious, potentially catastrophic probability.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 04, 2018, 08:31:33 PM
So the general election is when? Next Thursday?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 06, 2018, 01:57:44 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 22, 2018, 10:14:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 22, 2018, 10:11:24 PM
Yes, but probably a bad day to have any kind of accent.  The Daily Mail is arguing that we should expel all the estimated 3.8 million EU citizens who live here currently (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5871947/3-8million-EU-migrants-allowed-stay-Brexit-bring-families.html)

Yes, in a similar vein, the majority of the US population wants to move 11.3 million people all at once.  The dumber you get, the more vicious you get.  Or maybe it's the other way around.

They both feed into the other; that's why they call it a vicious cycle
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 06, 2018, 11:44:01 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/news/uk-officials-poison-probe-could-take-months/vi-AAzGwSU?ocid=spartanntp

Your Russians need to be more careful with their tools.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 07, 2018, 03:18:41 AM
I'm still pissed we haven't hit back harder at Russia for this.

Of course, gutting the entire civil service probably didn't help....anyway, Brexit position has been decided on by the Cabinet, and it's pretty much exactly as Peston called it.  Naturally, this pisses off both the Remainers and the Leavers, and it also has the added benefit of directly running counter to at least one EU red line (free movement of goods and services requires free movement of people).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 08, 2018, 01:21:26 AM
I've started to assume the reason there is no major pushback or impetus to russian investigations is due to having to admit that a significant percentage of the voting population is open to manipulation. Being able to say for certain that XX% of a nations population are open to nearly any damn fool idea you care to shove in front of them turns the world into a very strange place in short order. The more the educated guesses turn into hard data and facts, the closer we get to somewhere just being bought by Pepsi. Which is a fucker to speak, but if you know Mcdonalds you can get by.


As for the ongoing brexit shitshow, what, another couple of days for the EU to formally reject, Mogg froths the day after, another emergency 12 hour meeting to repeat at the weekend? Everyone involved in this should just be fucking embarrassed as I strongly doubt any one person has half an idea about a practical solution for even a tenth of the problems. The nameless hordes of negotiators and translators on either side must be cringing every time they meet as it's becoming rather repetitive to say the least.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 09, 2018, 02:52:15 AM
So, David Davis (Brexit Minister) has resigned, a woman has died from Novichok poisoning, and the Donald is coming here in 4 days time.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2018, 04:17:33 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 09, 2018, 02:52:15 AM
So, David Davis (Brexit Minister) has resigned, a woman has died from Novichok poisoning, and the Donald is coming here in 4 days time.

Apparently the Orange Colostomy Bag is limiting his visit to some ancestral piles, as he fears the blimp.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2018, 04:18:20 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 08, 2018, 01:21:26 AM
I've started to assume the reason there is no major pushback or impetus to russian investigations is due to having to admit that a significant percentage of the voting population is open to manipulation. Being able to say for certain that XX% of a nations population are open to nearly any damn fool idea you care to shove in front of them turns the world into a very strange place in short order. The more the educated guesses turn into hard data and facts, the closer we get to somewhere just being bought by Pepsi. Which is a fucker to speak, but if you know Mcdonalds you can get by.


As for the ongoing brexit shitshow, what, another couple of days for the EU to formally reject, Mogg froths the day after, another emergency 12 hour meeting to repeat at the weekend? Everyone involved in this should just be fucking embarrassed as I strongly doubt any one person has half an idea about a practical solution for even a tenth of the problems. The nameless hordes of negotiators and translators on either side must be cringing every time they meet as it's becoming rather repetitive to say the least.

There wasn't even the bare-bones of a plan, was there?

This whole Brexit thing reeks of Russia.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 09, 2018, 04:59:54 AM
James Patrick was sounding that alarm bell (https://www.byline.com/journalist/jamespatrick/column) well before the Guardian got its teeth into the Leave.eu investigation and Aaron Banks' Russia links.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 09, 2018, 10:53:19 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 09, 2018, 02:52:15 AM
So, David Davis (Brexit Minister) has resigned, a woman has died from Novichok poisoning, and the Donald is coming here in 4 days time.

Davis was no loss anyway, he was just parroting whatever he had been told to. A lot of resignations in the last year, at least he wasnt trying to make illegal arms deals with isreal like Pretty patel was.

Times running out, Cain I think you called it two years ago when you said the EU wouldn't budge an inch, be as punitive to the UK as possible and had no real intention of doing any deal, this is looking more and more likely. WTO results in the border in Northern Ireland so that is the last thing I want.

It does dawn on me that the brexit promise of "We will be able to make trade deals that we couldn't" is the crux of the matter. The UK wants that... But with the individual countries that make up a trade block that are the only ones it cant make a deal with. Soveirnty will allow the UK to make deals with the US with China, India etc but not any of the geographically closest nations to it, and thats what's killing the negotiations because May and the hardliners know without that, whats the point? Shipping, food and medicine become restrictive and expensive.
If the EU wont make a deal it's a choice between lost decades of trade and a much reduced economy, or loss of pride and having to stay in the EU. I strongly suspect they will go for the former but it may be the worst possible outcome.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 09, 2018, 03:07:52 PM
Boris is no great loss either. I'm told he is the next rat who has left the stinking ship. [sic]
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 09, 2018, 04:38:44 PM
Quote from: MMIX on July 09, 2018, 03:07:52 PM
Boris is no great loss either. I'm told he is the next rat who has left the stinking ship. [sic]
Boris never does anything in others interests, leadership challenge or election incoming
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 09, 2018, 08:54:10 PM
I believe the 1922 Committee, who said last night they had enough votes for a leadership contest, was urging Boris to step down.

Are the 1922 Committee stupid enough to launch a hard Brexit coup agains Theresa May?  Maybe....I wouldn't put it past them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 17, 2018, 04:56:32 AM
Parliament added an amendment  to block NI being in a different customs union, and no possibility of a border in the Irish sea.

That's the pooch screwed, there is no longer a negotiating position in between full EU alignment or no deal.
Regulatory alignment means being tied to the EU, it is the most humiliating option so I am now preparing for a no deal WTO scenario.

I don't know why Mogg and co thought Ireland would back down on the border or "soften our position if the deal is sweetened". It was fundamental, the basis of all other negotiation, as such the veto is going to played and we all get the worst possible outcome.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2018, 11:29:47 AM
May's previous plan was never going to be accepted, but could probably have been used by the EU as a starting point for some form of negotiations.

This plan is just taking the piss.  The only reason we're not hearing so from Brussells is because they are deathly afraid that May's government will collapse with too much pressure put on it.

I think we've averted a no-confidence vote for this week, with these amendments.  But over the summer there's going to be a concerted campaign to undermine May.  It'll involve Boris, Steve Bannon and Rees-Mogg, among others. Once the summer recess is over, there may well be a major leadership challenge as soon as Westminster goes back to work (and just why are they taking a summer holiday during a national crisis? Because they can).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2018, 01:37:33 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiQNcAZXcAYqpll.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 17, 2018, 04:17:13 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 17, 2018, 04:56:32 AM
Parliament added an amendment  to block NI being in a different customs union, and no possibility of a border in the Irish sea.

That's the pooch screwed, there is no longer a negotiating position in between full EU alignment or no deal.
Regulatory alignment means being tied to the EU, it is the most humiliating option so I am now preparing for a no deal WTO scenario.

I don't know why Mogg and co thought Ireland would back down on the border or "soften our position if the deal is sweetened". It was fundamental, the basis of all other negotiation, as such the veto is going to played and we all get the worst possible outcome.

Can't you just ignore May's government entirely and just trade as normal?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 17, 2018, 05:38:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 17, 2018, 04:17:13 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 17, 2018, 04:56:32 AM
Parliament added an amendment  to block NI being in a different customs union, and no possibility of a border in the Irish sea.

That's the pooch screwed, there is no longer a negotiating position in between full EU alignment or no deal.
Regulatory alignment means being tied to the EU, it is the most humiliating option so I am now preparing for a no deal WTO scenario.

I don't know why Mogg and co thought Ireland would back down on the border or "soften our position if the deal is sweetened". It was fundamental, the basis of all other negotiation, as such the veto is going to played and we all get the worst possible outcome.

Can't you just ignore May's government entirely and just trade as normal?

43% of all agriculture is currently exported to the UK. On world trade organisation rules, these suddenly have 21% slapped on them on both sides. We can live with it and the EU has floated that it will absorb half of that in new demand for milk and dairy to european countries.

The border in the north of Ireland is the issue.  In anything but full EU alignment for Northern Ireland, it needs a border. The EU will push us for it in a non WTO scenario where NI isnt in the customs union.

The republic will now need to veto negotiations if they dont get that alignment, as in WTO the UK its forced to address the border while the EU has to give leniency to the republic or rather can't enforce fines on us.

If the U.K. puts in a border, there are more crossings than the border in eastern Europe it would make trumps wall cost look like chump change, in this scenario the north will have a border poll and will either become part of the republic and the UVF(UK nationalists) terrorism problem becomes ours or they vote to stay in the U.K. in which case the IRA (republican nationalists) rise to the tune of  Delores ni Reardons Zombie. Either way sucks. Europe will repeatedly say that the republic Needs to put up a border if the UK dont, which we will ignore unless they intend to pay for it which they wont.
If no border is erected and the UK ends up on WTO  with no border, northern Ireland basically becomes a smuggling port like a more rainy miserable Morocco/Interzone. (Which ironically undermines the whole thing of controlling foreigners going into the UK).
That shitty position of putting the UK on WTO at the moment looks like the best possible option for ireland, we know what a century of no work and a crippled economy looks like. For the U.K. it might come as a shock, it will make the Thatcher years look like a bump in the road.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 17, 2018, 05:42:50 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2018, 01:37:33 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DiQNcAZXcAYqpll.jpg)

The long term gain of clean trade could be good for the U.K provided the EU fails, if it even stays the same or grows the UK in all likelyhood loses out on the benfits of that. Or if Europe decides to be the bad guy in another world war. Which makes me wonder if that is the real push to leave? What do leave know that we dont, because its certainly not the benefits of fisheries and blue passports.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 17, 2018, 05:48:27 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 17, 2018, 05:42:50 PM
Which makes me wonder if that is the real push to leave?

Putin.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2018, 10:05:14 PM
EU preparing for no deal

https://twitter.com/zachjourno/status/1019272798219489280
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 17, 2018, 10:38:30 PM
Fuck its actually come to this. Reading those comments on that though.
So many people think this is a game of chicken, that the EU is going to blink, its not a harmonious union, the member states mostly hate each other, agreeing anything is slow and tedious, the only thing that is agreed is that a fair rule book be applied to all members, its not a negiotating position to insist that if you want the benefits, you get the cons, no other option was ever going to fly.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 17, 2018, 10:44:06 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 17, 2018, 10:38:30 PM
Fuck its actually come to this. Reading those comments on that though.
So many people think this is a game of chicken, that the EU is going to blink, its not a harmonious union, the member states mostly hate each other, agreeing anything is slow and tedious, the only thing that is agreed is that a fair rule book be applied to all members, its not a negiotating position to insist that if you want the benefits, you get the cons, no other option was ever going to fly.

That's the amazing part about all of this.  Everyone's hollering out their intentions, and nobody believes each other.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 20, 2018, 09:04:54 PM
Apologies for stabbing everyone in the back
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 20, 2018, 09:19:52 PM
Tories screeching about anyone stabbing anyone else in the back is hilarious.  They practically pride themselves on that being the way you climb through the party.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 20, 2018, 09:20:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 20, 2018, 09:19:52 PM
Tories screeching about anyone stabbing anyone else in the back is hilarious.  They practically pride themselves on that being the way you climb through the party.

And that's putting aside, you know, the constant leadership race and politicking since Cameron stood down.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 20, 2018, 09:39:22 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 20, 2018, 09:19:52 PM
Tories screeching about anyone stabbing anyone else in the back is hilarious.  They practically pride themselves on that being the way you climb through the party.
It seems to oscilate between "you owe us, ungrateful uppity bogtrotters", to accusing us of trying to "undermine" the will of the UK by pointing out the side effects of a no deal scenario, which is immediately followed up by threats.

And yeah, the tories seem to be modelled on the roman senate model of treachery as virtue but none of the fun stuff like drunk orgies and bestiality.
Oh. Wait.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2018, 09:48:58 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 20, 2018, 09:04:54 PM
Apologies for stabbing everyone in the back

Bloody Irish!  :argh!:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 25, 2018, 06:01:04 PM
"We will have adequate food" is the Brexit dream, apparently.  We've gone a long way from "unleashing the engine of productivity" and "£400 million extra for the NHS every week" to "you will totally probably be able to eat" and "you may see the benefits of independence from the EU within 50 years".

This country is so fucked.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 25, 2018, 06:44:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 25, 2018, 06:01:04 PM
"We will have adequate food" is the Brexit dream, apparently.  We've gone a long way from "unleashing the engine of productivity" and "£400 million extra for the NHS every week" to "you will totally probably be able to eat" and "you may see the benefits of independence from the EU within 50 years".

This country is so fucked.

Is it too late to un-Brexit?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 26, 2018, 01:36:02 AM
The EU has said, repeatedly, that we can stop it any time before Article 50 goes into effect on March 29th, 2019.

Naturally, this has led to both of the major parties ruling out ever stopping Brexit under any circumstances because a 2% margin is the will of the people.  If the people willed us to jump off a cliff, we'd have no choice but to do it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 26, 2018, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 25, 2018, 06:01:04 PM
"We will have adequate food" is the Brexit dream, apparently.  We've gone a long way from "unleashing the engine of productivity" and "£400 million extra for the NHS every week" to "you will totally probably be able to eat" and "you may see the benefits of independence from the EU within 50 years".

This country is so fucked.

Yeah, I don't like talking about doomsday scenarios, although that is now the default outcome of no agreement reached. Normally in negotiations if they go stale or reach an impasse you default to the status quo, in this case if everyone fails to agree to an outcome, we all douse ourselves in gasoline and light a match.
Not talking about doomsday aside... It looks like grid of the Republic of Ireland would need to disconnect Northern Ireland in a crash out scenario, as it would be uncontrolled lines attached to a grid with no guarantee at the other side that it will keep system integrity.

NI Cannot power itself, it will all need to come from the north-east interconnect... which results in two outcomes: Rolling blackouts in the whole of the UK or cut NI from the interconnect and deal with the backlash of a first world country in Europe with no power.
Because the best thing for a fragile region with two active opposing terrorist groups, is to put them in total darkness and cut off the phones for the emergency services.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2018, 05:00:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 26, 2018, 01:36:02 AM
The EU has said, repeatedly, that we can stop it any time before Article 50 goes into effect on March 29th, 2019.

Naturally, this has led to both of the major parties ruling out ever stopping Brexit under any circumstances because a 2% margin is the will of the people.  If the people willed us to jump off a cliff, we'd have no choice but to do it.

We'll see.  This is like playing chicken with the entire world's economy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 27, 2018, 02:48:00 AM
They're more afraid of the hard right than anything else.  It's a persistent theme in UK politics - they'd rather try and please the completely unpleasable knobs of the Daily Mail/Sun editorial team, the 1922 Committee and UKIP than they will take a chance on not fucking over 90% of the country.

Of course that also misses the point that Brexit wont please said knobs because Brexit isn't going to be the panacea they keep promising it is.  It won't be throwing Muslims out of the country, bringing back National Service or making homosexuality illegal again.  And when they realise that, they'll go beserk, regardless of how Brexit turns out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2018, 06:34:43 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 27, 2018, 02:48:00 AM
They're more afraid of the hard right than anything else.  It's a persistent theme in UK politics - they'd rather try and please the completely unpleasable knobs of the Daily Mail/Sun editorial team, the 1922 Committee and UKIP than they will take a chance on not fucking over 90% of the country.

Of course that also misses the point that Brexit wont please said knobs because Brexit isn't going to be the panacea they keep promising it is.  It won't be throwing Muslims out of the country, bringing back National Service or making homosexuality illegal again.  And when they realise that, they'll go beserk, regardless of how Brexit turns out.

Good times.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 28, 2018, 05:22:18 AM
There's also a good likelihood of all 3 major parties breaking apart (roughly along pro and anti-Brexit lines - the leader of the Lib Dems was attending a secret meeting about setting up a new centrist party to appeal to both Tory moderates and Labour MPs fed up with Corbyn), at least two constitutional crises and the return of terrorism to Northern Ireland.

Against a backdrop of increasing unemployment and food/medical shortages.  On a state that has suffered 8 years of crippling austerity measures that have, among other things, seen police and military leaving public service in droves.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 29, 2018, 01:33:16 AM
Are we formally taking bets on the next PM yet then? It's surely getting close to time for May to bail and leave the next sucker to be properly responsible. Can't these people even work out how to leave someone else holding the fucking bag?

Also, resignation rate in strong and shitty gov. is approx .63/week for various incompetence.

Have we had a laugh about Tommy robinson yet? Need to catch up on a few threads.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2018, 09:36:28 AM
We've not had a specific laugh on him so far, but on the subject of both him and the next PM, it's worth noting that Bannon is becoming increasingly involved behind the scenes on the UK far right fringe.  Bannon was apparently losing it in an interview for LBC Radio about how this country didn't deserve someone as great as Tommy Robinson and we weren' fit to lick his boots, or words to that effect.  Even Farage was sounding reasonable in comparison, pointing out he had, in fact, committed a crime.

That is important because Bannon is also apparently offering support to none other than Boris Johnson, whose naked desire to become PM, regardless of the circumstances or consequences should be pretty apparent to everyone by now.  There were meetings between the two recently, though the topic of conversation is only speculated upon.

I think Priti Patel may also be considering it.  She's going into retarded campaign mode all of a sudden, trying to crowdfund payment of legal fees to a Tory activist who broke electoral law.  Given the general public apathy over the case, the only reason she could be doing it is to bolster some internal support.

Sajid Javid is also playing the populist card at the Home Office.  Refusing to intervene on the British ISIS detainees held by the Americans and facing the death penalty, ordering research into the ethnicity of "grooming gangs", reviewing and rewriting elements of the Prevent strategy....he's out to prove he will be harder on Islamic extremists than any white racist, and I can only assume this is as a step towards becoming PM.

Jeremy Hunt is also rumoured to have ambitions, for some godawful reason.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2018, 05:21:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 29, 2018, 09:36:28 AM
We've not had a specific laugh on him so far, but on the subject of both him and the next PM, it's worth noting that Bannon is becoming increasingly involved behind the scenes on the UK far right fringe.  Bannon was apparently losing it in an interview for LBC Radio about how this country didn't deserve someone as great as Tommy Robinson and we weren' fit to lick his boots, or words to that effect.  Even Farage was sounding reasonable in comparison, pointing out he had, in fact, committed a crime.


STEVE Bannon?

Jesus Christ, dude, chain the cunt to Traitor's Gate and wait for the tide.  Don't delay.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2018, 07:08:08 PM
He is a major shareholder in Cambridge Analytica after all, a great British company.  Not to mention all those Brexiteers who credit CA with producing a victory for them...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 29, 2018, 07:22:24 PM
The funniest thing about Tommy was after his long record of being a bit of a tit trying to be a shitbag is that anyone would leap to his defence over fucking anything. He got warned multiple times that he was committing a crime, persisted and got punished. Far from any kind of injustice, it is, in fact, a stunning display of justice from a uk court. The big injustice is that he didn't also get time for his years of being a dick.

RE: PM race, question is who is Gove going to knife? Boris is the obvious but he's probably going to fuck over a few others on the way. Would be suitably funny/horrific if he got it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2018, 12:50:43 AM
Gove has apparently been meeting with Bannon as well, so 50/50 on it being Boris or May.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 30, 2018, 11:23:51 AM
Looks like Jeremy *unt is likely to be as diplomatic as dear departed Boris. Just a few days into his new gig and his Basil Fawlty is showing. ['Don't mention the war.']

QuoteJeremy Hunt, Britain's new foreign secretary, has made an awkward debut in China when he sought to curry favour with his hosts by mentioning his Chinese wife, but accidentally referred to her as "Japanese".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2018, 01:08:20 PM
 :lulz:  I bet his wife loved it as much as the Chinese diplomatic corps.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 30, 2018, 02:40:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2018, 01:08:20 PM
:lulz:  I bet his wife loved it as much as the Chinese diplomatic corps.

I haven't stopped giggling all morning - not that you could really expect anything better of him
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 01, 2018, 08:39:05 PM
Well, the government admitted today, via Jeremy Hunt, what we knew all along: that we're sleepwalking into a "no deal" situation, and it will be a catastrophe.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 03, 2018, 12:18:40 PM
I wasn't familiar with Tommy Robinson. And in my attempt to understand the Alt-Right I decided to read up on this whole "Freedom Fighter" thing.

Cain or someone do I have this correct:
A Pakistani Muslim pedophile ring were operating in the UK, targeting British girls.
A labor MP Ann Cryer blew the lid on it following reports from parents and Nazir Afzal brought a legal case against the gang.

Tommy Robinson claimed HE was the one who had exposed the gang because saying "Muslims rape white women" repeatedly somehow means he can lay claim to exposing this gang?
The many court cases (47 or so) which are being performed In Camera are to protect the victims and to avoid compromising the case.
As far as I know this is normal for:
Any case that could compromise subsequent ones by its publicity
Any case that endangers the victim especially children by having their identities publicised

Robinson barged in during court sitting, filming the case and shouting at the judge about hiding the proceedings... In a conspiracy to protect muslims? 
The judge gives him contempt of court and off to jail he goes, which was in violation of a suspended sentence of similar he had done earlier in the year.
The alt right say he is being censored and its a conspiracy against those trying to expose the truth of these Muslim rape gangs and that he is a hero and a freedom fighter.

So as far as I can tell these "Heroes" like Robinson:
Potentially collapse court cases against men who hurt little girls
Attempt to turn child rape victims into media spectacle.

Or am I misunderstanding something here? How has this guy got any support, even from the people who DO believe all muslims are rapists, he nearly blew the trial.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 03, 2018, 02:40:58 PM
Nope, you're pretty much bang on the money.

Added context: Robinson is the former leader of the English Defence League, and thus strongly associated with the international "counter-jihadist" "stop the Islamification of Europe/America" groups.  His leadership was also during the time that the EDL were being friends with Anders Behring Breivik on Facebook and discussing how best to petrol bomb mosques.

And they believe him because the usual far-right disinfo machine is completely invulnerable to facts at this point.  They don't know how the law works, and they can't be made to care.  Tommy was REPORTING important news that the Dhimmi-cucked MSM doesn't want us to know, and was censored for it.  End of.  Facts to the contrary only show how you are beholden to the Eurabian Deep State.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 05, 2018, 10:34:28 AM
Liam Fox just stated this morning that it was a 50-50 chance of "No Deal" on Brexit.

Meanwhile, Priti Patel is deluding herself - and whipping up backbencher lunacy - by suggesting that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, because our economy is "dynamic".  You may want to check GDP and wage increases across the EU for the last decade, if you want a real laugh on this.  Much like Liam Fox, she is suggesting that all we need to do is stand firm and not put up with their nonsense, and the craven Europeans will cave and give us everything we want.

I have said before and I will say it again, it would take an extraordinarily talented government to deal with the problems of Brexit, in relatively good times.  We do not have such a government, and these are not good times.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 05, 2018, 10:51:34 AM
Priti Patel may be forced to say this stuff, Boris Sent her over to Israel for some dodgy dealings and then hung her out to dry, its possible he still has some leverage over her.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 05, 2018, 11:12:22 AM
That wasn't my read on that whole situation.  The rumours I heard was she was there for May, because they didn't want to send Boris over because the press pay attention to him, and what she was doing there was officially against government policy with regards to the Occupied Territories.  Boris wasn't even aware, no-one at the Foreign Office was.

She was asked to take the fall for May, presumably under the promise of returning to the Cabinet at some future point.  But it's been 18 months and, especially after the last Cabinet resignations, it hasn't happened.  So she's making trouble, stirring it up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 05, 2018, 11:46:35 AM
Ah ok, that makes more sense, so either she will need to get a cabinet position or continue supporting the must destructive path, yet another group that May has to mollify on the pile.

I just realised that Liam Fox was the "Easiest deal ever done" guy, now we are at 50-50 crash out scenario.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 05, 2018, 12:33:43 PM
And just for the record, enough media shit was flung to get Tommy out of the clink. Try to contain your surprise at that.

QuoteWe do not have such a government, and these are not good times.

I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons to push through to the MP's summer holiday so quickly (and let them have it) was that there is less chance of them resigning or getting themselves sacked while drinking pimms in random holiday spot. At the rate the government is losing MP's  and influence in general it's likely the DUP deal is meaningless by November as they can't ensure a majority even with their support.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 06, 2018, 02:22:22 PM
We have gone from "we hold all the cards" and "easiest trade deal in history" to "the EU is legally required to take pity on us" in the space of a year

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dj3Z9bAXgAYN3xC.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Freeky on August 07, 2018, 08:55:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 06, 2018, 02:22:22 PM
"the EU is legally required to take pity on us"


:lol:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 08, 2018, 02:19:09 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 06, 2018, 02:22:22 PM
We have gone from "we hold all the cards" and "easiest trade deal in history" to "the EU is legally required to take pity on us" in the space of a year

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dj3Z9bAXgAYN3xC.jpg)

So if I was putting money on the table, is May going to be around in 6 months?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 08, 2018, 02:43:56 AM
It's looking increasingly likely that Boris Johnson is preparing a leadership bid.  His latest "Muslims are terrible" column, right after meeting with Steve Bannon, strongly suggest he's trying to whip up the far-right and gain their support for a putsch.

I just don't see the Commons doing anything about it until we're actually in No Deal territory, at the start of April.  When food starts running out and everything jumps up in price and people start rioting...then they will consider it.  But not a moment before.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 08, 2018, 03:02:52 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 08, 2018, 02:43:56 AM
It's looking increasingly likely that Boris Johnson is preparing a leadership bid.  His latest "Muslims are terrible" column, right after meeting with Steve Bannon, strongly suggest he's trying to whip up the far-right and gain their support for a putsch.

I just don't see the Commons doing anything about it until we're actually in No Deal territory, at the start of April.  When food starts running out and everything jumps up in price and people start rioting...then they will consider it.  But not a moment before.

How the fuck are the Brits even putting up with this?  I'd have figured they'd go full Cromwell by now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 08, 2018, 05:29:31 PM
No-one wants to believe it can really be that bad.  Everyone right now, with the exception of certain mid-tier civil servants, people with experience in customs and ports and people who handle anything that has to do with European based supply chains, is completely deluding themselves.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 08, 2018, 06:40:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 08, 2018, 05:29:31 PM
No-one wants to believe it can really be that bad.  Everyone right now, with the exception of certain mid-tier civil servants, people with experience in customs and ports and people who handle anything that has to do with European based supply chains, is completely deluding themselves.

I know those feels. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 16, 2018, 02:08:05 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2018/sep/15/food-and-brexit-will-the-cupboard-be-bare-jay-rayner

QuoteIt is a story which, anecdotally, appears to be repeated across the food sector: halted investment, shifted production, uncertainty. It indicates a shrinking of the food economy is under way. It also means Britain's food production is going to stall and even go into reverse at the exact moment it needs to go up. Only 49% of the food we consume in this country is now produced here. Another 30% comes directly from the EU. That's 10,000 shipping containers a day. Another 11% of the food we consume arrives under EU deals with third countries outside the EU; 70% of the cropland required to grow our food is located abroad.

People with knowledge of discussions within government told me about leading figures in the food industry going to see Theresa May to plead their case. "She just stonewalled them," one told me. Angus Davison of fruit company Haygrove summed up the views of many people across the food industry when he said of the prime minister, "She's not interested in us and not listening to us. She's an intelligent person, so I presume she doesn't care and is prepared to sacrifice the industry."

QuoteThat said, the language of the report is practically staid compared to that used by Lang when we talk shortly after its publication. "This is the biggest challenge Britain has faced since the early 1940s," he says. "A hard Brexit would be an unprecedented event in modern food history." He describes a face-to-face meeting with Gove. "I told him he was driving the country into a food security crisis. He looked incredulous."

But surely the government wouldn't let that happen? Lang told me he had it on good authority from a senior adviser to a senior minister that currently the best notion the government had for dealing with a hard Brexit was to abandon all checks and regulation of food coming into the UK, with huge ramifications for both quality and safety. "That's not taking back control. It's abandoning it." And none of this even begins to get into the details of the free flow of food and agricultural goods across the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

But, you know, I'm an alarmist Remoaner for telling people to stockpile food in the event of a No Deal Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 21, 2018, 05:23:20 PM
After today and yesterday, is there any other outcome than a no deal brexit left that's possible? It's going to tank our two economies and damage Europe.
We know what a century of poverty is like in the ROI, I'm not sure even in the depths of Thatchers reign the UK ever experienced what this is going to be like... so at least now that will be a shared cultural experience.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 21, 2018, 06:18:57 PM
Oh there's still the possibility of coming up with a deal that satisfies the EU's redlines.

We won't, though.

Just remember that: we chose to act like entitled brats for domestic political consumption, instead of coming up with a deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2018, 03:40:08 PM
I think what you were saying in the other thread about buying is a good idea.
If house prices come down to more favorable prices, immigration tapers off further driving it down could end up buying a place at about the lowest it might go over the next ten years. If I had money to spend I would be putting it in something less volatile then euro and pound for the next 12 months, which is basically only gold. and change some back once the currencies seem to hit bottom.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2018, 07:09:43 PM
There's always Swiss francs, as currencies go it is fairly stable and while there is an EU impact on their value, Switzerland's economic management offsets that to a considerable degree.

And I agree, this is going to be the best time to purchase property.  I just hope that UK based landlords aren't going to try and swoop in first, as there has been some slowing of house sales over the last two years (hoarding cash for a crash to buy low, sell high).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 01, 2018, 06:43:01 PM
How does Nigel Farage not get killed when he comes into England? 

I just saw a picture of him bellowing out some nonsense at a "Leave Means Leave" rally, which I presume are similar to Trump's EVERYBODY LOVES ME rallies.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 01, 2018, 06:47:25 PM
A significant part of the population still love him, and Boris Johnson.  The Mail and Sun give them slobbery blowjobs all day long, and it shows in how people treat them with anything but contempt.

That said, 25% of Leave voters feel they were lied to, according to the most recent polls, so maybe some of the shine is coming off.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 01, 2018, 06:49:35 PM
For a laugh, look at how often Farage (an MEP) has been invited on BBC's Newsnight in comparison with Caroline Lucas (a sitting MP and leader of the Green Party).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 01, 2018, 06:52:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 01, 2018, 06:47:25 PM
A significant part of the population still love him, and Boris Johnson.  The Mail and Sun give them slobbery blowjobs all day long, and it shows in how people treat them with anything but contempt.

That said, 25% of Leave voters feel they were lied to, according to the most recent polls, so maybe some of the shine is coming off.

I was just reading this, and wondering why nobody has just said "cancel Brexit"?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/6-months-before-brexit-many-in-uk-fear-'it's-looking-very-grisly'/ar-BBNJGDL?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 01, 2018, 07:01:25 PM
Apparently Labour will back a referendum on the final deal...if their members vote for it.   They should do, Labour members are overwhelmingly against Brexit, so if they could appeal to the Tory rebels, they could force the issue.

But that would only be a referendum on the terms of Brexit, not Brexit itself.  And nothing will stop this now, we are fully committed to jumping off this cliff.  Even the revelations of illegal spending by the Leave campaign (in a concerted campaign designed to avoid financial accountability) and the involvement of Russian figures in the Leave campaign, let alone the issues of implementing Brexit without fucking us all over, has not slowed down the process one bit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 01, 2018, 07:03:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 01, 2018, 07:01:25 PM
Apparently Labour will back a referendum on the final deal...if their members vote for it.   They should do, Labour members are overwhelmingly against Brexit, so if they could appeal to the Tory rebels, they could force the issue.

But that would only be a referendum on the terms of Brexit, not Brexit itself.  And nothing will stop this now, we are fully committed to jumping off this cliff.  Even the revelations of illegal spending by the Leave campaign (in a concerted campaign designed to avoid financial accountability) and the involvement of Russian figures in the Leave campaign, let alone the issues of implementing Brexit without fucking us all over, has not slowed down the process one bit.

One thing I'm not sure of is whether the UK can necessarily cancel Brexit even if everyone sobered up at the same time.

CAN you guys just call this off and go back to business as usual, or is there some EU rule that says you'd have to reapply for membership?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 01, 2018, 07:12:18 PM
The EU has said we can stop it at any time before March 29.  And we can, the referendum was never legally binding.

However, we would likely be stripped of our special benefits and opt-outs at some point as a result of this (yes, we actually have a better deal with the EU than most members, and still felt put upon and mistreated).  We could probably retain the sterling currency, but that would be about all.

I suppose in the future we could technically re-join after leaving, but again we wouldn't get the benefits we had before, and I think it would take at least a generation before that happened, both due to the UK and EU political climate, and I think we would be treated with a huge amount of suspicion for decades after, weakening our position within the EU.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 01, 2018, 07:58:38 PM
The UK had veto power to block certain new legislation, that no other country had. It also had the power to block basically any other legislation if it could find the support of two other countries. It also had a load of opt outs on spending, on taking the Euro as a currency. It could be retained if article 50 was withdrawn now. If the UK rejoin in a few years time it would never get those concessions again.
The veto is really a worry for Ireland because Europe keeps attacking the 12% corporate tax rate, and for years the UK has blocked it. For Ireland it's loss is probably the single biggest issue behind Northern Ireland. Hell, if the EU offered the Veto to Ireland instead, we'd potentially soften the stance on Northern Ireland.
There's huge scope to improve Europe from within and that's probably the most frustrating part. Watching the UK piss away leverage as one, if not the most influential countries in Europe.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 01, 2018, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 01, 2018, 07:58:38 PM
The UK had veto power to block certain new legislation, that no other country had. It also had the power to block basically any other legislation if it could find the support of two other countries. It also had a load of opt outs on spending, on taking the Euro as a currency. It could be retained if article 50 was withdrawn now. If the UK rejoin in a few years time it would never get those concessions again.
The veto is really a worry for Ireland because Europe keeps attacking the 12% corporate tax rate, and for years the UK has blocked it. For Ireland it's loss is probably the single biggest issue behind Northern Ireland. Hell, if the EU offered the Veto to Ireland instead, we'd potentially soften the stance on Northern Ireland.
There's huge scope to improve Europe from within and that's probably the most frustrating part. Watching the UK piss away leverage as one, if not the most influential countries in Europe.

Funny thing about nationalists, right?  Hell, most of Germany's economic woes were put to bed by the Weimar government, just in time for the Nationalists to waltz in and take the credit.

What kills me about Brexit is that it created a massive problem to address prosperity.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 01, 2018, 09:11:06 PM
It's more of an existential crises then just a shift to the right. The Tories have always blamed europe for all of their problems, I think they have just sobered up enough to realise that that wont be an option any more and it terrifies them.

But what it does is it gives fuel to the right wing in europe, Hungry is a dictatorship now, Poland is rigging their elections, its the same played out stories about migrants across all the countries, a scapegoat that probably goes back to the first mud huts.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 01, 2018, 09:31:23 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 01, 2018, 09:11:06 PM
It's more of an existential crises then just a shift to the right. The Tories have always blamed europe for all of their problems, I think they have just sobered up enough to realise that that wont be an option any more and it terrifies them.

But what it does is it gives fuel to the right wing in europe, Hungry is a dictatorship now, Poland is rigging their elections, its the same played out stories about migrants across all the countries, a scapegoat that probably goes back to the first mud huts.


Yeah, the USA is a bit of a festival that way right now.  We're about 60% lazy liberals, 20% really loud fascists, and 20% people who will just do whatever they're told.


I think there is some magic number of assholes, say 15%, that overpower rationalism just with their big Goddamn mouths.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 01, 2018, 09:35:08 PM
The Tories are on the brink of collapse.  Between the loss of a European scapegoat, and the complete collapse in the under 50s demographic votes, they're staring at an abyss.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 01, 2018, 09:40:29 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 01, 2018, 09:35:08 PM
The Tories are on the brink of collapse.  Between the loss of a European scapegoat, and the complete collapse in the under 50s demographic votes, they're staring at an abyss.

But being Tories, they will feel obligated to pull everyone else down with them, of course.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 02, 2018, 10:03:18 AM
They'd quite happily see the entire United Kingdom dissolve if it meant they had an unassailable 20 year majority.  Which I suspect is a consideration in how they are acting - if Northern Ireland and Scotland go away, the Tories can rely on their English voters to carry them to a majority - at least until their current voting bloc dies off.  In the meantime, they'll stoke resentment about Remainers ruining the terms of Brexit to fuel a cuture war in the press to help build the next generation of embittered Tory voters.  We're already importing elements of the American culture war, so this won't be hard to pull off at all.  And sure, such tactics in the US only resulted in the dumbest man in history trying his damndest to drive the nation off a cliff, so there will definitely be no downsides over here.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 05, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
So the mystery of the DUP's £435,000 Leave donation is still a mystery (https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-jenna-corderoy/electoral-commission-turned-blind-eye-to-dups-shady-brex).  More worryingly, the Electoral Commission seems to be engaged in a coverup:

QuoteSenior Electoral Commission staff privately expressed 'concerns' that the Democratic Unionist Party had broken UK election law, openDemocracy can reveal. At issue was a controverisal £435,000 donation to the party's 2016 Brexit campaign. But just weeks later the watchdog closed the case without investigating the DUP's Brexit cash.

The Electoral Commission was watching closely when BBC Northern Ireland's Spotlight team broadcast Brexit, Dark Money and the DUP in late June. In internal emails, staff at the regulator said that the film raised 'concerns' about the source of the DUP's donation, which came from a shadowy group called the Constitutional Research Council (CRC).

Staff at the watchdog also said that the programme provided "new information" which suggested the DUP had been 'working together' with other Leave campaigns in contravention of electoral law.

But barely a month later, the Electoral Commission announced that it did "not have grounds" to launch a full investigation into the DUP's Brexit spending. The emails, released to openDemocracy under freedom of information laws, suggest that little attempt was made to examine the allegations aired in the BBC film, with senior staff stressing the need to swiftly "draw a line" under the issue.

Barrister Jolyon Maugham of the Good Law Project said that the Electoral Commission's decision not to investigate the DUP was "utterly inexplicable from a genuinely independent regulator". Maugham and Ben Bradshaw MP have annouced that they will seek juduicial review proceedings against the regulator for its 'whitewashed' investigation into the £435,000 DUP donation and its failure to investigate the CRC. openDemocracy first broke the story of the DUP's Brexit cash back in February 2017.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 05, 2018, 09:28:12 AM
It's worth noting, as the author has, that many Leave campaigns that were vetted by the Electoral Commission were subsequently found to have broken spending laws.  And of course it goes without saying that anything that would undermine the DUP might undermine the government...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 06, 2018, 08:44:17 PM
BBC is reporting that the EU is confident that an agreement can be reached before the end of the year...but there's still no solution being presented for the Irish border.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 08, 2018, 06:36:26 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpAFcALXoAABU1a.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 08, 2018, 06:38:40 PM
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-latest-pm-could-refuse-to-sign-39-billion-divorce-settlement-with-eu-if-it-fails-to-give-a3956446.html

QuoteTheresa May today threatened to refuse to sign a £39 billion "divorce" settlement with the EU if it fails to give Britain a "precise" future trade deal within weeks.

The stark warning dramatically dampened expectations of an agreement at next week's EU summit on Brexit.

It also heightened fears that Brussels may offer Britain only vague guarantees over future trade ties — possibly a document of just 15 to 20 pages — before it quits the European Union in March.

The timing of the Prime Minister's public demand is also likely to cause alarm that the Government has still not nailed down the type of trade deal on the table.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 08, 2018, 09:39:37 PM
Yikes, up until now (despite JRM and Boris)  the exit bill has been off the table. That could end up being tit-for-tat, it could end up being the prerequisite discussion for any future trade deal, access to europol and other EU security databases, the stuff May said they would keep paying for to keep access to.
It would be incredibly punitive, but I could see the EU objecting the UK's WTO schedule which can tie that up for years even if they eventually agree.

Both sides are showboating for the final negotiations, have to look like they are playing hard ball, This will likely be followed by the EU offering something, May gets to bring it home and strengthens her position. The danger is this is all moot without NI being sorted, if it goes to 11th hour negotiations without an answer for NI, ROI will just let the clock run out, don't even need to be in the negotiation room and can still force No deal.

My company trades in both jurisdictions, there is no outcome where we don't suffer because of all this.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 08, 2018, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 08, 2018, 09:39:37 PM


My company trades in both jurisdictions, there is no outcome where we don't suffer because of all this.

How bad?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 08, 2018, 11:09:50 PM
Coming so soon after the EU was praising tentative progress in the talks, there is no way this won't be seen as a deliberate snub.  No wonder Germany seems to have washed its hands of the negotiations of late - the UK is being by turns arrogant, petulant and self-destructive.  I'd stay as far away from that as possible too.

It's also going to make any future trade deals much more difficult, promises from Japan nonwithstanding.  We made that deal already about the payments, reneging on it would have the Big Three credit ratings agencies trashing us as an unsafe business environment for the next decade - driving up the cost of what is already irresponsible borrowing by the Tories even further, whilst going through a probable recession. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 08, 2018, 11:21:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 08, 2018, 11:09:50 PM
Coming so soon after the EU was praising tentative progress in the talks, there is no way this won't be seen as a deliberate snub.  No wonder Germany seems to have washed its hands of the negotiations of late - the UK is being by turns arrogant, petulant and self-destructive.  I'd stay as far away from that as possible too.

It's also going to make any future trade deals much more difficult, promises from Japan nonwithstanding.  We made that deal already about the payments, reneging on it would have the Big Three credit ratings agencies trashing us as an unsafe business environment for the next decade - driving up the cost of what is already irresponsible borrowing by the Tories even further, whilst going through a probable recession.

Question:  How fucked is Europe if the UK's banking system is sequestered?  I mean, is there ANY downside for Europe for just saying "Fuck you guys"?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 08, 2018, 11:35:57 PM
Well, a lot of the banks are already moving out to Frankfurt or Dublin for their new European headquarters, with quite a few corporations heading to Amsterdam for the low taxes.

The UK has suffered a trade deficit with Europe for years, because the UK economy is primarily geared towards the service economy, which doesn't usually have an overseas component, whereas France and Germany are in the business of producing goods.  And what the EU does sell in the UK is worth far less (https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-trade-deficit-eu/) to their economies than our trade with Europe is worth to ours.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 09, 2018, 03:38:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 08, 2018, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 08, 2018, 09:39:37 PM


My company trades in both jurisdictions, there is no outcome where we don't suffer because of all this.

How bad?
In what is currently the best case scenario our equipment and install costs go up 20 percent and our profits go down anywhere between 0-20 as well, and thats not accounting for downturns in sales due to hesitation about markets etc.
Its anywhere between a bump in the road to swallowing the car.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 09, 2018, 03:41:59 AM
Europes biggest exposure having centralised a lot of banking in the UK is the clearing houses but if anything goes wrong there you are talking about over exposed banks and brexit becomes a worldwide problem akin to lehaman bros in 2008. We'll find out whats happening with those in november, they aren't wating around till march, they are deciding what to do then.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2018, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2018, 03:38:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 08, 2018, 10:07:17 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 08, 2018, 09:39:37 PM


My company trades in both jurisdictions, there is no outcome where we don't suffer because of all this.

How bad?
In what is currently the best case scenario our equipment and install costs go up 20 percent and our profits go down anywhere between 0-20 as well, and thats not accounting for downturns in sales due to hesitation about markets etc.
Its anywhere between a bump in the road to swallowing the car.

Ouch.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 09, 2018, 09:18:10 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/9Mr8BOZ.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 09, 2018, 05:19:52 PM
18 Percent are happy to leave the EU with no deal and 17 percent wouldn't mind. Which is in line with the 35 percent Brexit at any cost.

I'm going to assume that 35% of the population are not stupid and are in on some secret contingency plan, the only thing that currently makes sense is the UK has managed to develop some kind of jets to allow it to become a flying fortress Britannia to rival Bioshocks Columbia, and is able to trade with or pillage from whatever nation it requires, because if not this, then there is no explanation what these people want.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2018, 05:43:52 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2018, 05:19:52 PM
18 Percent are happy to leave the EU with no deal and 17 percent wouldn't mind. Which is in line with the 35 percent Brexit at any cost.

I'm going to assume that 35% of the population are not stupid and are in on some secret contingency plan, the only thing that currently makes sense is the UK has managed to develop some kind of jets to allow it to become a flying fortress Britannia to rival Bioshocks Columbia, and is able to trade with or pillage from whatever nation it requires, because if not this, then there is no explanation what these people want.

You are assuming rationality for some reason.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 09, 2018, 07:35:59 PM
Fortunately, that's the one thing a majority of people can actually agree on with regards to Brexit, that it would be a really bad idea.

Not that it matters, since we're not going to have another election in the next six months, so good luck getting your voice heard.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 10, 2018, 10:34:32 AM
This is all perfectly normal (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a661abb6-cc0c-11e8-998e-a6e3c63abd14):

QuotePlans for the mass slaughter of sheep mid-transit are being discussed by Whitehall officials should ports be closed in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

Sensitive discussions about what to do with livestock if there are days of delays or closures at ports such as Dover are under way in No 10 and government departments.

Mandarins are considering extreme contingency scenarios, which they know are likely to be dismissed as "project fear" by some MPs and members of the public. Nevertheless they also worry that failure to plan for certain outcomes, however unlikely, would lead to significant criticism if they were found to have underestimated the scale of the challenge.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 10, 2018, 12:11:03 PM
That would stop the migrants walking the channel tunnel I guess, if it were to be stuffed with rotting meat.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 10, 2018, 03:25:26 PM
We could also use the rotting meat to pelt DUP members with

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45806063

QuoteThe Democratic Unionist Party's 10 Westminster MPs are planning to vote down the Budget later this month if they are unhappy about the government's Brexit plans, the BBC understands.

Theresa May relies on DUP support in key votes because she does not have a majority in the House of Commons.

But the DUP could abandon this deal if Brexit means new barriers between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, Newsnight's Nick Watt said.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 10, 2018, 04:52:45 PM
A country of 65 Million people held to ransom by 10 holdovers from the cretaceous period.

The EU have asked for confirmation of the NI issue for next weeks summit so the DUP are basically saying, if you throw us under the bus we collapse the GOV.
Labour aren't any more likely to get anything through, but Corbyn is mad enough to have a border poll in NI (and Scotland) to try and sort out the issue.  Neither May or Cameron want to be the ones to break up the UK, I dont think Corbyn would have any issue with it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 10, 2018, 05:04:22 PM
May might not, but remember, 75-80% of Tories do see Scotland and NI leaving as being worth the price of Brexit.   And if Scotland leaves, it puts Labour in a very bad electoral position - I don't see them winning back those 41 seats any time soon, but without them and a reduced overall seating in Parliament, they'll be struggling to get a majority at all.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 10, 2018, 05:16:32 PM
Yikes, that would basically make Wales and England a one party republic of Tory. I'd not considered that, what a horrible thought.
The idea of Scotland leaving I find weird because it would have the same border issue, and with the Tories being the dominant party of the what's left... I can see Pent and Payne out there feverishly rebuilding Hadrain's wall with bricks and mortar.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 10, 2018, 05:29:13 PM
The Northern oilfields dispute would also turn from a national one into an international one, as a third party nation tries to muscle in on resources claimed by an EU state.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 10, 2018, 08:29:47 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 10, 2018, 05:16:32 PM
Yikes, that would basically make Wales and England a one party republic of Tory. I'd not considered that, what a horrible thought.
The idea of Scotland leaving I find weird because it would have the same border issue, and with the Tories being the dominant party of the what's left... I can see Pent and Payne out there feverishly rebuilding Hadrain's wall with bricks and mortar.

No, they'd go all border reaver and burn York down.  Again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2018, 01:35:05 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpOeTlgX4AAYKJV.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpOfkkiXoAEWIxm.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpOhBwfXcAAj723.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 13, 2018, 11:33:25 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/dup-leader-regards-no-deal-brexit-as-likeliest-outcome-observer/ar-BBOkOIa?ocid=spartanntp

I am still trying to see any advantage at all to Brexit other than "assbag nationalism."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2018, 12:22:48 AM
We will have the freedom to fail miserably on our own.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2018, 09:06:19 PM
So, if a backstop agreement cannot be made by the end of this month, France has said it will not have further meetings with the UK next month.  Negotiations would have to start again in December, but Parliament has Christmas holidays from Dec 20 to Jan 7, and government generally winds down after the first 2 weeks of the month anyway.

If a backstop cannot be agreed then,  it means there will be under 3 months to agree a deal, get the deal past Parliament, and then have every other EU state agree on it.  Brexit hardliners will say the backstop is remaining in the EU by stealth, and will not agree to it.  The UK cannot legally agree to a deal which places Northern Ireland on a different constitutional setting than the rest of the country, by making the backstop only apply there, and if they try, the DUP will collapse the government.  They might collapse the government anyway, depending on what happens with the upcoming budget.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 14, 2018, 09:18:54 PM
So that leaves:
Remain in the EU full, or crap out on no deal, and than a hellish series of WTO schedule objections just to get on the same footing as all other WTO countries.

Say the government collapses and corbyn comes in, he has been more open to Scottish independence, not really open to another vote on brexit, and was open to an NI border poll.
I imagine cutting parts of the UK adrift just to get brexit through the door is not an option (as much as I would like to see a united Ireland in my lifetime, though I think now is not the time).

Literally everything other then remain sounds like a disaster, on either a European or World scale.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 14, 2018, 09:40:57 PM
The DUP have been preparing for a No Deal, much like the Tory Brexit hardliners.

If they withdraw support, it won't collapse the government right away, but it will likely trigger a no confidence vote.  That will take at least a week.  Then, if May survives, she will have to limp on with no majority and half the backbenchers wanting her dead.

If she doesn't, the new leader will still have to choose between the DUP and the European Research Group ultras on Brexit.  Either one presents significant risks, someone likely cannot become leader without ERG support, but cannot govern the current Parliament without the DUP.  A leadership contest will take likely another week, though given the fractured and weak nature of the Tory front bench, this could extend to two.

So there would have to be another election, if a solution cannot be found that pleases the contradictory demands of the DUP and ERG.  That would require 2/3rds of Parliament to vote in favour of it, to waive the Set Parliament Act.  Lets be generous and assume 1-2 weeks for that debate.

Then there would need to be another month for the election to take place.  By now, this process has likely taken up more than a month.  However, if we assume the government falls due to the budget, then that puts the election during Christmas/New Year.  Parliamentary recess and common sense makes that impossible.  Instead they will choose either January 3rd or 9th.

The Tories still have a 4 point lead over Labour in the polls, though the above could definitely change all that.  But if that advantage remains, that puts them a point below the last election, meaning they would likely still win, but without an outright Parliamentary majority.  The Tories have to choose between minority rule or coalition, bringing them back to where they were during the leadership race.

It's now the middle of January, and nothing has progressed on Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2018, 05:00:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 14, 2018, 09:40:57 PM
The DUP have been preparing for a No Deal, much like the Tory Brexit hardliners.

If they withdraw support, it won't collapse the government right away, but it will likely trigger a no confidence vote.  That will take at least a week.  Then, if May survives, she will have to limp on with no majority and half the backbenchers wanting her dead.

If she doesn't, the new leader will still have to choose between the DUP and the European Research Group ultras on Brexit.  Either one presents significant risks, someone likely cannot become leader without ERG support, but cannot govern the current Parliament without the DUP.  A leadership contest will take likely another week, though given the fractured and weak nature of the Tory front bench, this could extend to two.

So there would have to be another election, if a solution cannot be found that pleases the contradictory demands of the DUP and ERG.  That would require 2/3rds of Parliament to vote in favour of it, to waive the Set Parliament Act.  Lets be generous and assume 1-2 weeks for that debate.

Then there would need to be another month for the election to take place.  By now, this process has likely taken up more than a month.  However, if we assume the government falls due to the budget, then that puts the election during Christmas/New Year.  Parliamentary recess and common sense makes that impossible.  Instead they will choose either January 3rd or 9th.

The Tories still have a 4 point lead over Labour in the polls, though the above could definitely change all that.  But if that advantage remains, that puts them a point below the last election, meaning they would likely still win, but without an outright Parliamentary majority.  The Tories have to choose between minority rule or coalition, bringing them back to where they were during the leadership race.

It's now the middle of January, and nothing has progressed on Brexit.

You guys need Cromwell.  Just for a couple of weeks, he was very efficient.  Seriously, at this point, throwing Brexiters in the Thames is a matter of personal survival.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2018, 05:24:17 PM
But if we throw them in the Thames, what will we eat once the shops run out of food?

My post-Brexit plan involves: burning copies of the Sun and Mail to keep warm, eating Leave voters and travelling the country in an armoured bus with an advert about NHS spending on the side.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2018, 06:15:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 15, 2018, 05:24:17 PM
But if we throw them in the Thames, what will we eat once the shops run out of food?

My post-Brexit plan involves: burning copies of the Sun and Mail to keep warm, eating Leave voters and travelling the country in an armoured bus with an advert about NHS spending on the side.

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on October 16, 2018, 08:06:09 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 15, 2018, 05:24:17 PM
But if we throw them in the Thames, what will we eat once the shops run out of food?

My post-Brexit plan involves: burning copies of the Sun and Mail to keep warm, eating Leave voters and travelling the country in an armoured bus with an advert about NHS spending on the side.

I'm in. We have a massive stockpile of scottish unionists up here I've been fattening up for the lean times. Trust that will be enough to pay for my bus pass?  :evil:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2018, 10:57:51 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Wp0n4Ge.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 16, 2018, 11:55:35 AM
I think the UK should have been negotiating with itself for about 4-5 years before article 50 was signed.

Figure out a stance and go into negotiation with that, not go in suggest something and come home to be told by the old ball and chain (Arlene) that these are not acceptable.

So in the short term, if the EU summit is missed, we'll start seeing businesses activating contingency plans. Some will be bad for the UK, expect manufacturers first, then the financials. The clearing houses will be making their mind up in November, which will be bad for the EU and bad for the world, 2008 here we come.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2018, 11:57:20 AM
Yes, a general deal should have been agreed by tomorrow's EU summit, as I recall.

Things are going to unravel from this point.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2018, 11:58:33 AM
20 minutes behind the headlines (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/16/eu-scraps-plans-for-brexit-summit-statement-on-future-trade-deal?CMP=twt_gu):

QuoteEU leaders have scrapped plans to discuss and publish a draft declaration this week on the bloc's future trade deal with the UK after the derailment of the talks over the Irish border, in a blow to Theresa May.

An outline of an agreement was due to be "on the table" at a summit dinner of leaders on Wednesday night, before which the prime minister is scheduled to address the 27 other EU heads of state.

Developments on Sunday, when the Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab, refused to sign off on an agreement on the Irish border, have brought the carefully choreographed plans to a halt.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 16, 2018, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 16, 2018, 11:58:33 AM
20 minutes behind the headlines (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/16/eu-scraps-plans-for-brexit-summit-statement-on-future-trade-deal?CMP=twt_gu):

QuoteEU leaders have scrapped plans to discuss and publish a draft declaration this week on the bloc's future trade deal with the UK after the derailment of the talks over the Irish border, in a blow to Theresa May.

An outline of an agreement was due to be "on the table" at a summit dinner of leaders on Wednesday night, before which the prime minister is scheduled to address the 27 other EU heads of state.

Developments on Sunday, when the Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab, refused to sign off on an agreement on the Irish border, have brought the carefully choreographed plans to a halt.

I felt bad because I had a Trump, then I saw that my neighbor had an infinite number of Trumps.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2018, 04:32:55 PM
The EU, in a rare sign of foreign policy competency, actually planned for this.

While it was hoped the draft would be finalised at the EU summit happening tomorrow, they factored in the possibility of talks falling through and November being the actual final chance to negotiate something before the December EU summit.

However, that at least part of the problem is that the UK is failing to negotiate because of it's own preconditions does...not inspire confidence.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 17, 2018, 04:55:04 PM
On the radio (bbc) this morning John Humphries was interviewing our Brexit minister Simon Covney.
So it was going fine, disagreeing, but fine, until humphries started asking about "The wall". There's a long pause where Covney doesn't understand what he is getting at.
It appears some No Deal brexiters believe there will be a wall built for the border in NI.

This wall would make the Maga Kahn turn even more orange with envy.

Not only would it be the most expensive and largest manmade structure on the planet but would take the most complex route available, going through awkward weaving patterns through peoples land, through houses, sinusoidal curves, randomly doubling back on itself through historically gerrymandered land from Muff to Warren point. The US at least has large swaths of uninhabited desert, but pretty much the entire length of the NI border has people living on both sides or down the centre of the border.

To be honest I'm all for it. a 500B project with the entire construction industry of europe would be great for local investment, and the end result is a monument that spits in the eye of god while shitting on the tower of babel.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 17, 2018, 05:09:51 PM
Quotemost expensive and largest manmade structure on the planet

Until the bridge from Northern Ireland to Scotland is built, anyway.  You know, the one Boris Johnson promised everyone a few weeks back.  The completely impossible one from an engineering point of view.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2018, 06:12:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 17, 2018, 05:09:51 PM
Quotemost expensive and largest manmade structure on the planet

Until the bridge from Northern Ireland to Scotland is built, anyway.  You know, the one Boris Johnson promised everyone a few weeks back.  The completely impossible one from an engineering point of view.

Nothing is actually impossible.  All it takes is time and money.  Lots and lots of time and money.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 17, 2018, 06:30:02 PM
Well, it's possible, until a storm rolls in.  Then it's a very expensive mistake.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2018, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 17, 2018, 06:30:02 PM
Well, it's possible, until a storm rolls in.  Then it's a very expensive mistake.

That's included in the money part.

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 17, 2018, 06:58:02 PM
We could use that 400 million a week we were going to put into the NHS into repairing the same bridge, over and over again.

Also, news on the Brexit front.  Barnier has said he would be open to extending negotiations, for up to another year even.  However, May has thus far refused to mention it at the EU summit.  According to sources in the Tory party, if she was to take that deal, they would instantly move for a vote of no confidence against her, one she is of course not guaranteed to survive.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 24, 2018, 09:54:18 AM
It looks like Theresa May is edging towards a "long transition" plan that will see the UK effectively stay in the EU for several years.  It's not confirmed, but if this happens it could be the spark that sees half the cabinet quit and calls for a vote of no confidence.

"The People's Vote" protest went off without a hitch, and was completely irrelevant.  This is a Tory party civil war now (feat. the DUP), everyone else's opinions don't matter.  Not to mention in living memory the government completely ignored a far larger protest in order to invade Iraq, and a lot of those politicians are still around and don't think there was anything terribly wrong with that (you could argue that was Blair and Labour, and that's true, but the Tories also voted in favour of going to war).

The National Audit Office has warned that there will not be a functioning border in the event of a No Deal Brexit due to insufficient staff and time.  Qouth the report: "This, combined with the UK's potential loss of access to EU law enforcement and national security tools, could create security weaknesses which the government would need to address urgently." 

The government is also making plans to charter ships to bring in food and drugs in the event of a no deal.  With what money has not been specified, I would not be surprised if we needed to draftships under emergency powers for this to be fully effective.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 14, 2018, 11:12:52 PM
So it seems May has gone for the "worst bits of all options" as opposed to the flaming wreckage of no deal.
Tomorrow it will be torn to shreds and either the government will collapse or the no deal measures will be triggered.

The backstop is there for NI, which means DUP (who dont want it) and SNP (who do want it but cant have it) will be voting this down, only hope this would have of getting through the house is with labor rebels but I dont see it happening.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2018, 11:31:00 PM
On the plus side, that a potential deal has been agreed to by the Cabinet now means that those who might want to impede it will have to own a no deal Brexit, should it come to pass.

My chief worry is that there are enough idiots who really believe no deal is better than a bad deal and are willing to own trashing the deal, if not the consequences further down the line.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 10:22:26 AM
The chaos has started.  3 resignations, and while the DUP don't seem to be actively taking steps thus far, they are cheerleading the dissenters.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2018, 10:27:07 AM
Raab failed to negotiate anything, was belligerent with the EU who just stonewalled him and negotiation had to continue without him.
He should be resigning, but not because of the deal proposed, but because of his abject failure to bring home any alternative.
I'm seeing some comments about Ref2 which up until now the brexiteers were saying would violate "the will of the people". I am hoping if it comes down to it, it will be ref on this deal, or stay in the EU.
No deal should never be presented as an option because it would go through without anyone thinking about the consequences.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 10:49:34 AM
May's trying the same thing, saying it's her deal, no deal or no Brexit.

Labour are also against it, no surprise.  Labour + ERG rebels could kill this in Parliament.  That's assuming May is still PM next week, which is not a given.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 10:52:13 AM
The EU is also saying this is as good a deal as they can provide, that "the EU is at the limit of what will work on EU side - this is an extraordinarily generous EU approach to the British."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 10:55:30 AM
This is unusually frank, even for an Irish diplomat

QuoteIrish diplomatic source, while May is speaking: "Our caution is being shown to be well placed... If the crazies tear it down, the Irish people will know the crazies tore it down."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2018, 11:47:37 AM
That is very candid, surprised there wasn't backlash over that comment.

It will be seen that way, it's no secret that if it all goes to shit the DUP and tories will have that blame laid at their doorstep. Pretending NI doesn't exist (tories) or trying to drive a wedge between NI and the Republic(DUP) would accelerate a united Ireland.
It's cynical, but all SF have had to do is sit back and watch the dumpster fire and step in in  a year to say how much better it would be to be part of the republic.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 11:58:43 AM
Assuming Stormont ever gets going again, that is.  Between this and the Tories tainting themselves as an actor in the process, I can see direct rule being reimposed...with all that entails.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
Direct rule would accelerate the process, union support would drop rapidly, which the Tory's could be happy with, and bring forward a border poll, I'd be happy with that but it would be chaos.

More resignations. Gove absent from HOC so he's probably going to jump ship as well.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 12:15:52 PM
I'm more concerned that a return to direct rule will be a shot in the arm for the paramilitaries on both sides.  Not to mention if the Army is being deployed in England to maintain order as is the current plan, then it won't have the resources to go elsewhere...

Which is another point.  I know that generally speaking, an attack on the Falklands would be suicidally stupid, but Argentina has to be considering the odds. 

Lib Dems have come out against the deal.  It seems safe to say this wont pass Parliament.  Rumours are that a vote of no-confidence could happen as soon as tomorrow.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 15, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
Gove absent from HOC so he's probably going to jump ship as well.

Rumour is that he's being offered Brexit Secretary job.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2018, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2018, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 15, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
Gove absent from HOC so he's probably going to jump ship as well.

Rumour is that he's being offered Brexit Secretary job.

HAS THE UK NOT SUFFERED ENOUGH
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2018, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2018, 12:15:52 PM
It seems safe to say this wont pass Parliament.  Rumours are that a vote of no-confidence could happen as soon as tomorrow.
Mogg openly threatening it. I don't think they will, doing so would split the party in two. Actually that could be a good thing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 12:26:50 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 15, 2018, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2018, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 15, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
Gove absent from HOC so he's probably going to jump ship as well.

Rumour is that he's being offered Brexit Secretary job.

HAS THE UK NOT SUFFERED ENOUGH

The offer has been confirmed by the Telegraph.  No word on a decision yet.

Quote from: Faust on November 15, 2018, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2018, 12:15:52 PM
It seems safe to say this wont pass Parliament.  Rumours are that a vote of no-confidence could happen as soon as tomorrow.
Mogg openly threatening it. I don't think they will, doing so would split the party in two. Actually that could be a good thing.

He's not the only one who's made the threat.  The ERG are having an emergency meeting in 20 minutes though, so I suppose we will hear soon enough
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 12:59:35 PM
Hearing rumours that Gove has turned down the role and resigned, and that Mogg has put in the no-confidence call.  Waiting for confirmation on both.

Edit: letter confirmed, but not clear if he has 48 MPs to back him yet.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on November 15, 2018, 01:39:28 PM
Taking it back to basics for us 'Murricans, do I understand the plan is to "legally" leave the EU, but leave the EU trade deals in place "for the foreseeable future" until they can re-negotiate.

Why on earth would the EU ever agree to that?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 01:42:37 PM
For 21 months, the "transition period", the UK would have to follow all existing EU legislation and continue to implement rulings from EU bodies, such as ECHR, with a clause allowing extension of that period (and subsequently a continuation of following EU policy) while the UK and EU negotiate a final trade deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on November 15, 2018, 01:46:39 PM
I was under the impression that the EU wanted to make this as hard as possible, so other countries don't try it.  What are they getting out of the deal -- it is just so Ireland doesn't explode?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 01:49:20 PM
It gets them continued trade with the UK in the meantime.  Besides, I think the point has been made - you'll notice not many of the usual suspects are so keen on withdrawing from the EU now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on November 15, 2018, 02:00:06 PM
Ok, thanks.  It's really weird watching this play out.  Like, I get the feeling most people don't want to do this anymore, even a good chunk of the pro-Brexit folk, but hey: the majority of people voted to get fucked, so I guess we gotta do this.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2018, 02:18:59 PM
The UK's intention was to unilaterally leave, make a trade deal with the EU, and then be able to make them freely with other nations.
Under whats proposed Any deviation from EU rules will close off access unless Northern Ireland stays on those rules.

Its a black eye to the UK, and shows the consequences of leaving, but the elegant part of it (if you want to see it as a punishment, which from Ireland's perspective its not), it doesn't come with  financial damage to either the EU or UK, unless the UK diverges.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2018, 02:59:54 PM
I worry that I have must been drinking the nationalist cool aid that is going around europe, two years ago I didnt have strong feelings on a united Ireland. If I start complaining about foreigners take me out and shoot me.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2018, 06:17:41 PM
According to Robert Petson, Gove was offered the Brexit Minister job, but said he would only take it if he would be allowed to renegotiate the deal.  May said no, so he said no thanks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2018, 07:02:54 PM
He knew she wouldn't go for it, but its easier to justify saying he wont take the job by asking that.
Doesn't like like the 1922 got the numbers, if they don't by morning there's nothing that will push them to. Fear of Corbyn and no deal / no brexit might be keeping them from doing it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 16, 2018, 08:57:27 AM
No, it has gone all quiet on that front.

I think the thing is, at this point who really wants to plunge the country into another election, less than 18 months after the last one (which took place 18 months after the previous one) staring down the barrel of Brexit?  On the other hand, what solution is there to this impasse, where the PM cannot pass the Brexit treaty yet none of her critics have a viable solution to hand, or can even form a government to deal with it?

I think calls for a referendum, to break the political deadlock, are only going to grow.  And going by today's Sky News poll, voting to stay in the EU would win easily, with a "no deal" Brexit in second place and the PM's plan coming dead last.

I don't think Gove is going to resign, but I think Mordaunt might leave.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 16, 2018, 09:40:41 AM
Might have spoken too soon.  FT is now reporting a no confidence vote is likely.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 16, 2018, 10:21:43 AM
If it was close I wouldn't be surprised if May had 5-10 of her own supporters put them in, who would then vote in support.
If she wins a contest it is a full year before they can call it again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 16, 2018, 11:58:23 AM
Yeah, there is that.  On the plus side, I went out for a haircut and came back without the government collapsing.  That's a good sign.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 17, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
If there was anything that made Thursday's proceedings worthwhile, it was this thread (https://twitter.com/garius/status/1062983853260918784).

Sample:

QuoteLIDINGTON: Mogg's letter is in
MAY: Tedious little shit
LIDINGTON: Anything from Gove?
MAY: I feel terror and an overwhelming urge to vomit, so maybe his human form approaches
LIDINGTON: Oh sorry I forgot to mute Sky. Rees-Mogg's live <click>
MAY: Okay, no the feeling has passed
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 06, 2018, 10:33:04 AM
So, there are two rumours currently swirling around Whitehall:

1) Everyone, from Cabinet members down to junior civil servants, is expecting there to be a major Brexit inquiry once this is done.  Everyone is keeping personal records.
2) In an interesting contrast to the above, there are secret cabinet-level meetings going on.  These involve members of the Cabinet and the PM, but not the civil service, and what happens in them is not being recorded.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 06, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
TM finally lost that last fingernail grip on reality and is going to declare herself Lord protector and take on dictatorial powers?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2018, 12:50:00 PM
At what point does resurrecting the monarchy become a favorable choice?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on December 06, 2018, 04:39:57 PM
Everything about this has gone from horrifying to hilarious recently.

At first it resembled a bunch of horrid cretins burying the underclasses in their feces, now it looks like they may not have even succeeded in that lofty goal and indeed are drowning in that foulest of poo themselves.

I wish I lived there right now. Maybe I could pelt cabinet members with frozen peas and get away with it in a months time.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 06, 2018, 05:28:10 PM
We still have to put up with another 2 days of debate before the vote next week.

What will happen:

- Parliament will reject the deal
- Everyone will rush to come up with a new deal
- There will be no consensus for any of these deals, because they are all either crap, insane, will never be agreed to by the EU or do not pander to the fantasies sold to the British public for well over 2 decades now.  Certainly none of them will appeal to more than any 30 given MPs.
- No-one will actually challenge May for the leadership, because, you know, poison chalice
- There will not be a general election.  There will not be a second referendum.
- Everyone will stare at each other gormlessly until we crash out of the EU without a deal in place
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 06, 2018, 07:32:44 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 06, 2018, 05:28:10 PM
We still have to put up with another 2 days of debate before the vote next week.

What will happen:

- Parliament will reject the deal
- Everyone will rush to come up with a new deal
- There will be no consensus for any of these deals, because they are all either crap, insane, will never be agreed to by the EU or do not pander to the fantasies sold to the British public for well over 2 decades now.  Certainly none of them will appeal to more than any 30 given MPs.
- No-one will actually challenge May for the leadership, because, you know, poison chalice
- There will not be a general election.  There will not be a second referendum.
- Everyone will stare at each other gormlessly until we crash out of the EU without a deal in place


This never fails to amaze me.  NOBODY benefits from Brexit, it's a nonstop trainwreck of epic proportions, and all they have to do is STOP.  But they can't, because they lack the moral courage to do so.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 06, 2018, 07:48:36 PM
The three amendments last night (provided the EU says the UK can withdraw article 50 unilaterally) could allow ministers to cancel brexit if they thought there was no other outcome then "No Deal"
Then the UK could stay, and blame the EU forever (which they were probably going to do anyway).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 06, 2018, 08:03:33 PM
We still have to wait for the final comment from the European Courts on that (which incidentally occurs on Monday, the day before the vote), but yes.

Roger, what I keep on hearing, not just from TV but from actual people in the civil service and pub talk in Westminster (so...people in the civil service) is that this is The Will Of The People.  They've worked up the crazies, the hard Brexit gang and their supporters and the hard right media, into a monster of mythic proportions that they are deadly afraid of crossing.  I mean, I seem to remember a shit ton of people marching to prevent the war in Iraq, and Blair basically told them to go piss in the wind.  The Will of The People didn't matter then, but of course it was being articulated by hippies and professional activists, not The Telegraph and Sun newspapers.

They would quite literally prefer to wreck the country than possibly lose their jobs.  It's the very definition of cowardice.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on December 06, 2018, 08:38:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 06, 2018, 08:03:33 PM
They would quite literally prefer to wreck the country than possibly lose their jobs.  It's the very definition of cowardice.

If they do the former, I hope they achieve the latter.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 06, 2018, 09:07:01 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 06, 2018, 08:03:33 PM
We still have to wait for the final comment from the European Courts on that (which incidentally occurs on Monday, the day before the vote), but yes.

Roger, what I keep on hearing, not just from TV but from actual people in the civil service and pub talk in Westminster (so...people in the civil service) is that this is The Will Of The People.  They've worked up the crazies, the hard Brexit gang and their supporters and the hard right media, into a monster of mythic proportions that they are deadly afraid of crossing.  I mean, I seem to remember a shit ton of people marching to prevent the war in Iraq, and Blair basically told them to go piss in the wind.  The Will of The People didn't matter then, but of course it was being articulated by hippies and professional activists, not The Telegraph and Sun newspapers.

They would quite literally prefer to wreck the country than possibly lose their jobs.  It's the very definition of cowardice.


I know those feels.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 07, 2018, 02:53:08 PM
Latest projections are six months of chaos at Dover with a "no deal" outcome.

Kent County also projected an outcome where bodies could not be collected, schools would be closed and rubbish left on the streets all as a result of the traffic disruption.

The Lib Dems are trying to table legislation for another referendum, but they've lost the support of People's Vote, who want to build cross-party consensus on a second referendum before putting legislation before Parliament.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 08, 2018, 12:03:16 PM
The UK DOES remember the Potato Famine!

https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-threat-food-shortages-ireland-4381228-Dec2018/

QuoteAS UK PRIME Minister Theresa May has just five days to try to rally support for her Brexit deal, a Tory MP has suggested using the possibility of food shortages in Ireland in the event of a no-deal Brexit to encourage the EU to drop the backstop.

A government report, leaked to the Times of London, has indicated that there could be food shortages in Ireland in a no-deal Brexit scenario, and the economic impact on Ireland would be worse than in the UK.

[...]

Tory MP Priti Patel has told the paper that these warnings should have been used as leverage against Ireland to encourage them to drop the backstop.

"This paper appears to show the government were well aware Ireland will face significant issues in a no-deal scenario. Why hasn't this point been pressed home during negotiations? There is still time to go back to Brussels and get a better deal."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 08, 2018, 06:02:10 PM
It's either ignorance of her history and the role Britain played in the Irish famine, or a deliberate sneering comment about what was effectively a genocide.

She is correct that if the UK has food shortages we will too (banana's oranges, and imported foods) come on frieight from the UK.
But what makes her comment even funnier are two things:
1) The UK imports 50% of it's food, guess where most of that comes from.
2) https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-food-security/

The second is, fuck her, she is putting me in a position where I am given to my baser instinct of reveling at the thought of food shortages in the UK out of spite, which is unfair to the millions of people are aren't fucking monsters like her.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on December 08, 2018, 07:32:36 PM
I'm glad that my initial reaction was validated by an actual Irish citizen. I wasn't entirely sure if I was misremembering the potato famine being essentially genocide... guess I wasn't.

I'm upgrading from frozen peas to large ball bearings covered in barbed wire and capsaicin. Fuck these shitbag goons.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 08, 2018, 07:53:07 PM
Quote from: nullified on December 08, 2018, 07:32:36 PM
I wasn't entirely sure if I was misremembering the potato famine being essentially genocide... guess I wasn't.
Its a common belief that the one million people who died was entirely due to the potato blight, during the same period farmers were forced at gunpoint to export their crops. It's hard to say how many lives could have been saved if they had been able to use the food themselves, but they are deaths that could have been avoided.
Genocide is too strong a word for it, but there is a responsibility on the UK for many of those deaths.
https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/was-the-famine-genocide-by-the-british-28954929.html

It's not even a thing people talk about other than die hard shinner nationalists, but its those kind of feelings Patel's tone deaf comments illicit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on December 08, 2018, 07:59:49 PM
Oh, I don't know if it's necessarily too strong a word. Sure, the deaths weren't specifically intended by the UK, which would legally absolve them of genocide, but it's harder to say they didn't see it happening or that they did anything to help if they did notice. Morally speaking I feel like that's not too far removed from a purposeful attempt to starve the Irish out of existence.

And yeah, even if you disagree with my stance on the matter, saying that shit the way she did causes some pretty hefty fury in the hearts of anyone who knows a damn thing about it and has a caring bone in their body. Hyperbole happens in such moments.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 10, 2018, 06:45:11 PM
So....that went well?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 10, 2018, 08:37:52 PM
Withdrawing the vote was an interesting move, the current options are no deal or no brexit, the longer she holds out without letting them vote, it will kill the few who are still saying "negotiate something better". The clock ticks down but it does increase the chances of her deal going through. If I was her I would say, we can have a vote on it the week before A50 comes into effect and start triggering a no deal prep measure each week until enough ministers are convinced.
Apologies for my pavlovs dog reaction earlier, when comments like patels come out it has me drunkenly singing rebel songs from the roof until the guards come.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 10, 2018, 09:02:23 PM
This is fucking amazing.  You guys have actually managed to show the MAGA crowd how self-destruction is done downtown.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on December 11, 2018, 10:03:01 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on December 10, 2018, 09:02:23 PM
This is fucking amazing.  You guys have actually managed to show the MAGA crowd how self-destruction is done downtown.

Yeah, "Make Albion Great Again", you can buy red hats and everything
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 11, 2018, 12:32:10 PM
Red hats and blue passports.

But yes in all his slug like vileness, the cheeto has never dangled the economy over Tartarus to make a point.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on December 11, 2018, 05:06:33 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 11, 2018, 12:32:10 PM
Red hats and blue passports.

But yes in all his slug like vileness, the cheeto has never dangled the economy over Tartarus to make a point.

Its just like the good old days of empire - once again GB leads the world

Its tragic really
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 11, 2018, 06:36:51 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 11, 2018, 12:32:10 PM
Red hats and blue passports.

But yes in all his slug like vileness, the cheeto has never dangled the economy over Tartarus to make a point.

"Remember, I'm a tariff man."

He didn't dangle, he just charged right over the edge.  Have you seen the Dow Jones recently?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 12, 2018, 10:43:47 PM
I see May survived the no-confidence vote.

Which is, in it's own way, an indictment on the UK's government.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 13, 2018, 12:03:01 AM
It's OK.  When the Brexit treaty vote fails, Corbyn will trigger a no confidence vote, and then it will get clusterfucky
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 13, 2018, 12:51:58 PM
If the no confidence vote passes, a GE would be called right? Surely in that case they would vote to rescind article 50? Walking into a no deal, with no preparation and no government, it's like this mess wasn't dangerous enough so they poured gasoline on it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on December 13, 2018, 04:31:40 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2018, 12:51:58 PM
If the no confidence vote passes, a GE would be called right? Surely in that case they would vote to rescind article 50? Walking into a no deal, with no preparation and no government, it's like this mess wasn't dangerous enough so they poured gasoline on it.

but her emails the Will of the People. Apparently we voted to commit national suicide and Parliament is legally obliged to be the executors of our Will. They seem to have forgotten that traditionally you have to declare yourself to be of "sound mind" in order for a Will to be valid. The lunatics have truly taken over the asylum
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 13, 2018, 08:00:41 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2018, 12:51:58 PM
If the no confidence vote passes, a GE would be called right? Surely in that case they would vote to rescind article 50? Walking into a no deal, with no preparation and no government, it's like this mess wasn't dangerous enough so they poured gasoline on it.

Fixed Parliaments Act. You'd need 2/3rds of Parliament to agree first.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 13, 2018, 11:29:13 PM
I really can't see what is the likely outcome so: No deal, May deal, Referendum II, or something else I am not seeing?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 18, 2018, 05:08:18 PM
Brexit continues to go well.

Corbyn has confirmed that the DUP and ERG are hypocrites who would rather hold onto power than oust May when given the chance....but little else. 

May's plan is pretty clear.  She's going to run this up to to the wire, forcing the choice between her deal or no deal.  It's the obvious and indeed only play she can make.

What's less clear is what she and everyone else will do when her deal is voted down anyway.  May is pre-emptively ruling out a second referendum.  The only time a vote doesn't mean yes the first time is when people vote for Tory leader, it seems.  I have heard it floated that she wants to try and somehow poll MPs to find an acceptable solution.

However, that doesn't change the big issue that the EU says this offer is the only offer on the table.

It's going to be a fun 3 months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 18, 2018, 11:05:34 PM
SNP/Labour MP's want to introduce a bill that would revoke article 50 automatically if a deal isn't struck, if they do that it would defang Mays burning down the clock. It's even something I could see the DUP supporting that, as it maintains the integrity of NI with the rest of the Union.
But that is probably just me wishing. In this, the worst of all realities, the worst possible outcome will be stumbled into through indecision, can kicking and confusion as to what each option means.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 19, 2018, 05:37:04 PM
I can't see it passing myself.  Labour would probably reject it, the ERG would definitely reject it and about half of the moronic "wIlL oF tEh pEoPle" parroting Tories would go along with them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 19, 2018, 11:36:14 PM
I think I am just starting to panic, this ride isn't fun any more and the door handle wont work.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 20, 2018, 02:16:33 AM
Quote from: Faust on December 19, 2018, 11:36:14 PM
I think I am just starting to panic, this ride isn't fun any more and the door handle wont work.

The angel of apathy will be along shortly.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 20, 2018, 05:17:26 PM
Hah, if only.

This is NEVER going to end.  Even if May's bill passes, we have yet to negotiate an actual trade deal with Europe. We will have 2 years to do what Canada did in 10, with less experience in negotiating.

All while Leavers cry that May has betrayed us, and Remainers try to build support to re-renter the EU and centrist MPs dither....This is not going to stop.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 04, 2019, 07:16:43 AM
Today's poll must be disturbing reading for the Cabinet.

In a 3 way referendum between no deal, May's deal or staying in the EU, 57% of Tory party members prefer no deal.

If it were a referendum just on no deal versus May's deal, 64% would take no deal.

If May's plan was to force her deal through by making the alternatives completely unpalatable, its clearly not working


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 04, 2019, 09:15:39 AM
What a disaster. I keep seeing comments to the effect of "allow no deal so the EU can suffer, then they will negotiate properly".
A crash out without a deal means the backstop and NI will always be waiting, with a veto behind it. The UK could end up locked in a Turkey-- arrangement where it proposes something (without a backstop) and gets vetoed, that could go on for years.
We're stockpiling at work now. The export rate to the UK in no deal will be 20% from the EU, if the UK doesn't pay back the 39Bn that's to be extracted in tariffs also, and we are unsure if the UK will follow through with the "We can set our import tariffs to 0" if they need to recoup cash.
They are trying to keep it quiet at work as well but they will be offering relocation to Ireland for our UK staff.

On the semi bright side it looks like energy costs are going to soar because NI will need to be self sustaining, which for us means a bit of job security as our revenue is tied to that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on January 04, 2019, 01:35:30 PM
How quickly will the black market adapt to a no-deal Brexit, do you think?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on January 04, 2019, 02:42:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2019, 01:35:30 PM
How quickly will the black market adapt to a no-deal Brexit, do you think?

I suspect they are orchestrating it as we speak . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 04, 2019, 04:32:31 PM
I'm hoping they are ramping up, as it might keep the cost of goods low.

Ireland and the UK has established supply chains for the black market, there's an old adage that most of the drugs that enter europe come through Ireland and it could just be an old wives tale but occasionally we get things like this:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/icrime/cocaine-found-off-cork-coast-valued-at-440m-trial-hears-63676.html

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 04, 2019, 04:47:50 PM
Police are also being seconded to Northern Ireland.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 04, 2019, 05:04:42 PM
Christ, it's actually come to this, troubles mark II in 3 months and counting
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 04, 2019, 05:21:05 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2019, 01:35:30 PM
How quickly will the black market adapt to a no-deal Brexit, do you think?

Well at least one super dodgy "ferry" company is doing well.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 15, 2019, 09:21:57 PM
That went well
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 15, 2019, 11:26:03 PM
Worst vote result in UK government history isn't it?
I don't know what to make of it, I see people slating May but I don't see what other deal could ever have been reached, they would all require the backstop, or NI to be treated differently to the rest of the UK.
So the choice is now no deal, or remain right?
I've started seeing people saying "let no deal happen, then the EU will REALLY start to negotiate" but what I see happening is the UK approaching the EU for small things (access to Europol, citrus goods etc) and getting vetoed unless the backstop is the first thing on the agenda.
Even Greece which had 30 years of vetoing Turkey would occasionally allow stuff through for massive bribes. Ireland will only ever have one requirement.
It looks like massive economic catastrophe for Ireland and the UK. Ireland knows what it feels like from experience, but it can now be part of it and the UK's shared cultural experience.

All of this seems so pointless, we live in the haunted relic of Cameron's ego
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 16, 2019, 12:18:39 AM
Quote from: Faust on January 15, 2019, 11:26:03 PM
Worst vote result in UK government history isn't it?
I don't know what to make of it, I see people slating May but I don't see what other deal could ever have been reached, they would all require the backstop, or NI to be treated differently to the rest of the UK.
So the choice is now no deal, or remain right?
I've started seeing people saying "let no deal happen, then the EU will REALLY start to negotiate" but what I see happening is the UK approaching the EU for small things (access to Europol, citrus goods etc) and getting vetoed unless the backstop is the first thing on the agenda.
Even Greece which had 30 years of vetoing Turkey would occasionally allow stuff through for massive bribes. Ireland will only ever have one requirement.
It looks like massive economic catastrophe for Ireland and the UK. Ireland knows what it feels like from experience, but it can now be part of it and the UK's shared cultural experience.

All of this seems so pointless, we live in the haunted relic of Cameron's ego

No deal seems to imply the more or less instant collapse of the UK.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 16, 2019, 12:18:57 AM
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2019, 09:21:57 PM
That went well

What happened?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 16, 2019, 12:29:44 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 16, 2019, 12:18:39 AM
Quote from: Faust on January 15, 2019, 11:26:03 PM
Worst vote result in UK government history isn't it?
I don't know what to make of it, I see people slating May but I don't see what other deal could ever have been reached, they would all require the backstop, or NI to be treated differently to the rest of the UK.
So the choice is now no deal, or remain right?
I've started seeing people saying "let no deal happen, then the EU will REALLY start to negotiate" but what I see happening is the UK approaching the EU for small things (access to Europol, citrus goods etc) and getting vetoed unless the backstop is the first thing on the agenda.
Even Greece which had 30 years of vetoing Turkey would occasionally allow stuff through for massive bribes. Ireland will only ever have one requirement.
It looks like massive economic catastrophe for Ireland and the UK. Ireland knows what it feels like from experience, but it can now be part of it and the UK's shared cultural experience.

All of this seems so pointless, we live in the haunted relic of Cameron's ego

No deal seems to imply the more or less instant collapse of the UK.
Probably, could trigger a chain reaction like 2008 as well depending on how much exposure the banks have
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 16, 2019, 02:31:49 AM
HOLY SHIT.  THE DEVASTATION.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 16, 2019, 02:33:41 AM
Quote from: Faust on January 16, 2019, 12:29:44 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 16, 2019, 12:18:39 AM
Quote from: Faust on January 15, 2019, 11:26:03 PM
Worst vote result in UK government history isn't it?
I don't know what to make of it, I see people slating May but I don't see what other deal could ever have been reached, they would all require the backstop, or NI to be treated differently to the rest of the UK.
So the choice is now no deal, or remain right?
I've started seeing people saying "let no deal happen, then the EU will REALLY start to negotiate" but what I see happening is the UK approaching the EU for small things (access to Europol, citrus goods etc) and getting vetoed unless the backstop is the first thing on the agenda.
Even Greece which had 30 years of vetoing Turkey would occasionally allow stuff through for massive bribes. Ireland will only ever have one requirement.
It looks like massive economic catastrophe for Ireland and the UK. Ireland knows what it feels like from experience, but it can now be part of it and the UK's shared cultural experience.

All of this seems so pointless, we live in the haunted relic of Cameron's ego

No deal seems to imply the more or less instant collapse of the UK.
Probably, could trigger a chain reaction like 2008 as well depending on how much exposure the banks have

It's going to be worse than that, really.  The UK is 3.5% of the world's GDP.  Having it implode would be far, far worse than 2008.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 16, 2019, 07:13:10 AM
Wonderful. Since 1922 northern Ireland has been Irelands problem, now, it's everyone's problem.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 16, 2019, 08:25:32 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 16, 2019, 12:18:57 AM
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2019, 09:21:57 PM
That went well

What happened?

Worst Parliamentary defeat in modern history.

And now we're rapidly heading towards Brexit with no viable, widely supported plan in place.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 16, 2019, 08:28:38 AM
Quote from: Faust on January 15, 2019, 11:26:03 PM
So the choice is now no deal, or remain right?

Effectively yes, no matter how much Parliament deludes itself otherwise. Norway option and renegotiation are not viable. And the non-confidence vote today is probably going to fail as well



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 16, 2019, 08:35:06 AM
They have to realise that before March 29th though right, I'm not confident that they will become grounded in reality before that...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 16, 2019, 09:40:29 AM
May's still refusing to talk with Labour, so...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on January 16, 2019, 01:05:50 PM
Help me understand how this is a thing: May's deal was unprecedentedly defeated in a landslide, and yet she'll most likely beat a no confidence vote?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 16, 2019, 02:41:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 16, 2019, 01:05:50 PM
Help me understand how this is a thing: May's deal was unprecedentedly defeated in a landslide, and yet she'll most likely beat a no confidence vote?
Her own party voted against her for the deal. But they still want to stay in power and don't want an election so will not vote with the opposition in the no confidence vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 16, 2019, 04:40:30 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 16, 2019, 01:05:50 PM
Help me understand how this is a thing: May's deal was unprecedentedly defeated in a landslide, and yet she'll most likely beat a no confidence vote?

Well, you see, they have no confidence in May as a leader, her judgement or her ability to pass legislation through Parliament.

However, they are very confident that she is not Jeremy Corbyn.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 16, 2019, 07:54:59 PM
OK everyone, now we can get back to May ignoring everyone else's advice on Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on January 16, 2019, 08:24:57 PM
Hold up -- IS there advice?

I mean, is there a viable solution to all this that seems like it would have a good chance of passing/working?


Because from what I've seen so far, it's not if things go to shit, it's when and how fast.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 16, 2019, 09:45:20 PM
Not really, that ship has long sailed.

But back when May became PM, everyone was expecting her to create some kind of Parliamentary cross-party committee to deal with Brexit.  You know, get Labour and the Lib Dems and the SNP and the House of Lords and the London Mayoral office, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh and NI Assemblies, maybe set up ways different bodies and agencies, including business, could have an input on the proceedings.

Instead, May localised control for Brexit within the Cabinet.  She painted herself into a corner by coming out with "red lines" for a hard Brexit - no freedom of movement, no staying in the customs union etc.  She then spent two years pissing off everyone in UK and European politics to the point that even if we wanted to pursue a Norway option now, of staying in the wider customs union, the members of that club wouldn't let us join because of our disruptive influence and fear that we would try to use them to strike back at the EU - that's not my assessment, that's Norway's.

But even today, May was saying she wasn't going to talk with Corbyn about a second plan because he didn't have any ideas.  Instead she's going to talk with select Parliamentary members, all unnamed, to try and figure out what would be acceptable.  Whatever answer she gets, it won't please the EU or it will piss off a constituency whose support she needs (the DUP or ERG). 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on January 17, 2019, 12:52:18 AM
JAYsus.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 17, 2019, 12:58:08 AM
This is like watching someone hit themselves in the balls with a brick. 

You say "maybe you should stop hitting your balls with a brick," and they say, "too late to stop now."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on January 18, 2019, 11:29:56 AM
Welcome to UK politics and to a wider indictment of human nature - The lengths a rabid power junkie will go to, to hang onto their fix. Honestly, you want to assassinate Theresa May with no comeback? Just explain to her that the wall outlet dispenses power and then sit back and watch her electrocute herself trying to suck it out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 21, 2019, 04:01:50 PM
The UK has been approaching different nations to drum up support for a time locked backstop, some dodgy polish foreign minister has been the only one to bite so far and I suspect it cost a lot to get him to do so.
What state are we currently in, IIRC it was counting down the clock so that may can try force her deal on everyone again march 29th?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 21, 2019, 05:40:54 PM
I mean, we've been running interference for the Polish and Hungarian governments because they hate the EU just as much as we do.

That we're begging help off of two of the worst regimes in the Eurozone is a) pretty telling in and of itself, and b) will just piss off everyone else even more.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 22, 2019, 09:57:36 AM
There are probably other stellar regimes out there to endorse the current path:

"The UK does not need trade deals, it can be self sufficient and adopt the policy of Juche"
-NK leader and or Jacob Reese Mogg.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 22, 2019, 04:50:31 PM
Labour have decided, a day late and a dollar short, that they want a second referendum.

May has said "lolno".

The Brexit minister has said there's no guarantee that the EU will even agree to an extension of Article 50, if Parliament goes ahead with it.

The EU has warned that in the event of there being no deal, the EU will have to impose a hard border in Northern Ireland.

My bedroom is slowly filling with pasta and tinned food.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 22, 2019, 05:34:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2019, 04:50:31 PM
Labour have decided, a day late and a dollar short, that they want a second referendum.

May has said "lolno".

The Brexit minister has said there's no guarantee that the EU will even agree to an extension of Article 50, if Parliament goes ahead with it.

The EU has warned that in the event of there being no deal, the EU will have to impose a hard border in Northern Ireland.

My bedroom is slowly filling with pasta and tinned food.

I thought the EU said nothing matters until March?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 22, 2019, 06:32:34 PM
It doesn't.  They are talking about what happens in March, without a deal.

But, well, things have to start moving now.  France has already activated it's own "No Deal" planning, Ireland and the Netherlands will soon follow suit.  Markets are looking nervous...if anything the EU should be shouting louder.

UK civil servants are also being seconded to departments where they will be needed to deal with the fallout of Brexit.  Borders, education, health...it's crippling departments like the Treasury.

But tHe WiLl Of TeH pEoPleE!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 22, 2019, 06:49:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2019, 06:32:34 PM
It doesn't.  They are talking about what happens in March, without a deal.

But, well, things have to start moving now.  France has already activated it's own "No Deal" planning, Ireland and the Netherlands will soon follow suit.  Markets are looking nervous...if anything the EU should be shouting louder.

UK civil servants are also being seconded to departments where they will be needed to deal with the fallout of Brexit.  Borders, education, health...it's crippling departments like the Treasury.

But tHe WiLl Of TeH pEoPleE!

How many people favor a second referendum right now?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on January 22, 2019, 07:05:40 PM
A Brit in my office explained it like, "It doesn't matter, the people voted to leave.  It would be like the US asking for a do-over on the 2016 election in 2018."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 22, 2019, 07:26:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 22, 2019, 07:05:40 PM
A Brit in my office explained it like, "It doesn't matter, the people voted to leave.  It would be like the US asking for a do-over on the 2016 election in 2018."

Except that this is a non-binding resolution.  Hell, Parliament can just say "we're not doing this."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 22, 2019, 07:31:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 22, 2019, 07:26:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 22, 2019, 07:05:40 PM
A Brit in my office explained it like, "It doesn't matter, the people voted to leave.  It would be like the US asking for a do-over on the 2016 election in 2018."

Except that this is a non-binding resolution.  Hell, Parliament can just say "we're not doing this."

Lots of MPs would lose their seats though.  Most MPs are against a hard Brexit, and always have been.  But they're completely spineless on this issue.

And there is a growing call for a 2nd referendum, but I fear that a) little has actually changed and b) the actual questions to be asked are still to be determined.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 22, 2019, 07:32:58 PM
And then this happened

https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1087691731095699456  :lulz:

QuoteAny attempts by Remainer MPs to delay or obstruct #Brexit must be opposed. Today I have formally asked Polish Government to veto any motions by EU to allow extension of Article 50. We are leaving 11pm on March 29th as promised @StandUp4Brexit

Colluding with a foreign government, to potentially thwart the will of Parliament....there's a word for that, its right on the tip of my tongue....
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 22, 2019, 07:36:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2019, 07:32:58 PM
And then this happened

https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1087691731095699456  :lulz:

QuoteAny attempts by Remainer MPs to delay or obstruct #Brexit must be opposed. Today I have formally asked Polish Government to veto any motions by EU to allow extension of Article 50. We are leaving 11pm on March 29th as promised @StandUp4Brexit

Colluding with a foreign government, to potentially thwart the will of Parliament....there's a word for that, its right on the tip of my tongue....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxhWkwGWwAAgDvL.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 22, 2019, 08:16:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2019, 07:32:58 PM
And then this happened

https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1087691731095699456  :lulz:

QuoteAny attempts by Remainer MPs to delay or obstruct #Brexit must be opposed. Today I have formally asked Polish Government to veto any motions by EU to allow extension of Article 50. We are leaving 11pm on March 29th as promised @StandUp4Brexit

Colluding with a foreign government, to potentially thwart the will of Parliament....there's a word for that, its right on the tip of my tongue....

Isn't that why you guys have Traitor's Gate?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 22, 2019, 11:24:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 22, 2019, 07:26:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 22, 2019, 07:05:40 PM
A Brit in my office explained it like, "It doesn't matter, the people voted to leave.  It would be like the US asking for a do-over on the 2016 election in 2018."

Except that this is a non-binding resolution.  Hell, Parliament can just say "we're not doing this."
The leavers argument was "It was an instruction to parliament". Coming from a country that they have chained referendums; in light of new information a more detailed choice is presented.

The first was "Should the UK leave the EU", the next should be:
Remain
Deal
No deal
Extend and re open negotiation.

Ireland prepared for the EU saying a border would need to be imposed. The UK have treated the position as a threat or negotiation tactic;
Ireland will be effectively quarantining its own economy. We wont put in a border, we will increase checks at sea and on movement of people to and from Europe. Goods will need a certificate of origin from here when exporting to the EU.
If this satisfies to them that it protects the customs union it will limit the damage.
It will be catastrophic to both economies, the difference is, Ireland can gradually rebuild over a decade or two, the UK will face permanent veto to anything other then WTO with its closest and largest trading partner (the EU). In five years, ten years, twenty, the demonstration that Ireland wont accept any ideological partition of the country should be complete and the backstop should seem a comparatively small price to pay.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 23, 2019, 04:49:48 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 22, 2019, 08:16:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2019, 07:32:58 PM
And then this happened

https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1087691731095699456  :lulz:

QuoteAny attempts by Remainer MPs to delay or obstruct #Brexit must be opposed. Today I have formally asked Polish Government to veto any motions by EU to allow extension of Article 50. We are leaving 11pm on March 29th as promised @StandUp4Brexit

Colluding with a foreign government, to potentially thwart the will of Parliament....there's a word for that, its right on the tip of my tongue....

Isn't that why you guys have Traitor's Gate?

Sadly, our rules about treason are as restrictive as yours, if not more so.

It is funny though, watching the Brexiteers screech about democracy, then undermining Parliament.  Rees-Mogg was arguing today that May should shut down Parliament for a few days to prevent legislation on preventing a No-Deal Brexit be debated and voted on.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 23, 2019, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 23, 2019, 04:49:48 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 22, 2019, 08:16:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2019, 07:32:58 PM
And then this happened

https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1087691731095699456  :lulz:

QuoteAny attempts by Remainer MPs to delay or obstruct #Brexit must be opposed. Today I have formally asked Polish Government to veto any motions by EU to allow extension of Article 50. We are leaving 11pm on March 29th as promised @StandUp4Brexit

Colluding with a foreign government, to potentially thwart the will of Parliament....there's a word for that, its right on the tip of my tongue....

Isn't that why you guys have Traitor's Gate?

Sadly, our rules about treason are as restrictive as yours, if not more so.

It is funny though, watching the Brexiteers screech about democracy, then undermining Parliament.  Rees-Mogg was arguing today that May should shut down Parliament for a few days to prevent legislation on preventing a No-Deal Brexit be debated and voted on.

Where is Oliver Cromwell, now that you finally need him?  Seriously.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 23, 2019, 05:00:27 PM
Keir Starmer and Dominic Grieve are pretty poor replacements, even if I wish both of them would seize control of their respective parties in bloody coups.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on January 23, 2019, 09:52:24 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 23, 2019, 05:00:27 PM
Keir Starmer and Dominic Grieve are pretty poor replacements, even if I wish both of them would seize control of their respective parties in bloody coups.

...by how uniting which factions? At this point if you put 5 MP's in a room there's around 7 opinions on brexit and no more than 2 can concur on any of them. And half the other options are just unbearable to the other side. The next set of election manifestos are going to be stunningly non committal towards anything, even moreso than normal. And even less able to hold to anything in them.

Party politics is finally breaking down into its most pure form. The inability to accomplish exactly nothing, and then by doing so call it success. Seriously, people call May successful with a straight face. Helen Keller would have been able to achieve no deal and give a more charismatic speech in the process.

Money on Liberal/Conservative coalition 2, wherein one side promises the other something like a referendum that it never intends to hold? Can see odds on before march, it's stupid enough to happen.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 24, 2019, 01:51:56 PM
Quote from: Junkenstien on January 23, 2019, 09:52:24 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 23, 2019, 05:00:27 PM
Keir Starmer and Dominic Grieve are pretty poor replacements, even if I wish both of them would seize control of their respective parties in bloody coups.

...by how uniting which factions?

I was being literal about a bloody coup. It's about the only chance Greive would have (Starmer is pretty clearly being groomed for a leadership role but Sadiq Khan is a more likely future candidate)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 29, 2019, 09:26:14 PM
Brexit is now literally the moon from majora's mask.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on January 29, 2019, 10:17:14 PM
Just got this from Pembrokeshire CC - don't know whether to laugh or cry, and horrormirth is so yesterday

Newsroom
New Look For Trade Event
Supplier to buyer
Gaelic Snails, Nitro Coffee, Gluten Free products and Irish Pork Scratchings provide an overseas flavour for next month's 'Supplier to Buyer' trade event.

The annual event, which is South West Wales's largest trade show for the tourism and hospitality sector takes place on Wednesday, February 6th, in its new location – The Parkhouse Building, Withybush Showground.

'Supplier to Buyer is a free, regional trade event aimed at the hospitality, leisure and tourism sectors, and is a jointly organised between Pembrokeshire County Council's Food Development Team and Pembrokeshire Tourism.

Over 60 exhibitors have already booked to attend including 11 from Ireland.

They have been invited as part of the Bucanier Project - BUCANIER (Building Clusters and Networks in Innovation Enterprise and Research).

The project aims to open up trading opportunities between Wales and Ireland and hopefully providing Welsh traders a chance to return to Ireland in the future.

"I am really excited and cannot wait to meet other Welsh businesses and I believe this will be the first step to build long lasting relationships with some Welsh partners,"said  Eva Milka from Gaelic Escargot

Her views are echoed by Matthew Brownie of The Skibbereen Food Company.

"Can't wait to meet our project partners Pembrokeshire County Council in Wales next month, and to showcase my snack products, to all buyers and distributor's at the supplier to buyer trade show," he said.

"I'm Excited to see new and latest food innovation from other producers in Wales."

"'Supplier to Buyer' is an ideal place to showcase your product range, or any new editions direct to the trade," said Pembrokeshire County Council's food development officer Joanne Welch.

"As in previous years there is an excellent array of producers attending that deliver first class, high quality produce and this is a great opportunity for the hospitality, tourism and retail sector to find out what products are available and where they are obtainable.

"Having our friends from the Bucanier Project, including those from across the Irish Sea attend, helps to make this year's event an incredible opportunity and provides added flavour. The event is all about opening up business opportunities and seeing those business links develop over time."

Liz Williams, Project Manager of Pembrokeshire Tourism agrees.

"We are delighted to join up with Pembrokeshire County Council's Food Development Team in bringing together this regional trade event once again.

"It is a great opportunity for hospitality businesses to find new products, and develop interesting offers for their visitors, many of whom are now keen to find something distinctive and local to the area, and of course the ranges available for those with dietary requirements are increasing all the time as well".

For more information contact Tel: 01646 622228 or Email: admin@pembrokeshire-tourism.net

Bucanier is funded by the European Regional Development Fund through the Ireland Wales co-operation programme.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 29, 2019, 10:59:51 PM
Quote from: MMIX on January 29, 2019, 10:17:14 PM
Just got this from Pembrokeshire CC - don't know whether to laugh or cry, and horrormirth is so yesterday

Newsroom
New Look For Trade Event
Supplier to buyer
Gaelic Snails, Nitro Coffee, Gluten Free products and Irish Pork Scratchings provide an overseas flavour for next month's 'Supplier to Buyer' trade event.

So wait.  This is the replacement for international trade in the post-Brexit economy?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on January 29, 2019, 11:39:03 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 29, 2019, 10:59:51 PM
Quote from: MMIX on January 29, 2019, 10:17:14 PM
Just got this from Pembrokeshire CC - don't know whether to laugh or cry, and horrormirth is so yesterday

Newsroom
New Look For Trade Event
Supplier to buyer
Gaelic Snails, Nitro Coffee, Gluten Free products and Irish Pork Scratchings provide an overseas flavour for next month's 'Supplier to Buyer' trade event.

So wait.  This is the replacement for international trade in the post-Brexit economy?

Only if we can find enough privateers to smuggle the goods for us. And yes this is pretty much what constitutes international trade in my part of Wales for sure.  I was talking to a localish MP the other night and he reminded me that 60% of our Welsh products are exported to the EU and once you get past whats left of our steel production and the remnants of heavy industry,[Airbus wings and aero-engines, that sort of stuff] the balance of our exports is in agricultural produce, with increasing attempts to increase the value added sector. Most of these are small scale family businesses and they are predominantly supported by European structural funds. After Brexit it seems unlikely that there will be much international trade left. We will be scratching around looking for pennies down the back of the sofa, because WTO terms just aren't going to support trade at the same levels as we are currently used to.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 29, 2019, 11:46:10 PM
Brady amendment passed.  May has to go back to the EU and negotiate on something the EU has said it won't negotiate on.

Time to stock up on tinned food, pasta, toilet paper and drugs.  No Deal just got even more likely.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on January 30, 2019, 12:17:01 AM
Quote from: Cain on January 29, 2019, 11:46:10 PM
Brady amendment passed.  May has to go back to the EU and negotiate on something the EU has said it won't negotiate on.

Time to stock up on tinned food, pasta, toilet paper and drugs.  No Deal just got even more likely.

Candles too. Just saying. I remember the 1970's
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 30, 2019, 01:25:03 AM
Quote from: Cain on January 29, 2019, 11:46:10 PM
Brady amendment passed.  May has to go back to the EU and negotiate on something the EU has said it won't negotiate on.

Time to stock up on tinned food, pasta, toilet paper and drugs.  No Deal just got even more likely.

Can't you guys just start beheading people?  That worked in the old days.

I ask this with a completely straight face.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on January 30, 2019, 07:57:23 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 30, 2019, 01:25:03 AM
Quote from: Cain on January 29, 2019, 11:46:10 PM
Brady amendment passed.  May has to go back to the EU and negotiate on something the EU has said it won't negotiate on.

Time to stock up on tinned food, pasta, toilet paper and drugs.  No Deal just got even more likely.

Can't you guys just start beheading people?  That worked in the old days.

I ask this with a completely straight face.

Patience. That's how some of us are planning to feed ourselves after the no-deal thing goes through :evil:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 30, 2019, 05:54:45 PM
I think we're going to do that after it matters, ie; March 30th.

Besides, we could vote all the Tories out tomorrow and that wouldn't change the fact that Corbyn's own idea is nearly as utopian in its idealism and equally unlikely to pass the EU's smell test.

48% of the country has been thrown under a bus, in that regard.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 01, 2019, 09:38:49 AM
Today's Brexit roundup:

Up to a third of UK companies are looking to send some or all operations overseas in the event of a no deal Brexit.

Schools are being allowed to relax regulations on school provided lunches, to ensure that they can continue to provide meal in the event of a no deal Brexit.

NHS staff are being informed that preparations are being made for them to be able to stay on site overnight in Kent, as police project 3-6 months of travel disruption in the event of no deal.

Up to 1000 Ministry of Defence staff are being prepared to be seconded to prepare for dealing with Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 01, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
In Ireland we should be good for Milk, eggs, beef and potatoes and most grain. However there is a risk to imports that use the UK as a land bridge either becoming prohibitively expensive or unavailable for a while.
Electricity and fresh water should be ok but it's worth including if possible

At the risk of coming across as a Fallout post apocalyptic fetishist here's what I am thinking:

Tins of beans slab  x 3
Tins of chopped tomatoes slab x 3
KG Pasta bag  x 3
Tins Peach slab x 1
Other fruit tins slab x 1
Gallon storage water (Hard to store so I am not sure)
Rice x 10
Bread for deep freeze x 5 pan (will be gone fast)
Jam and Marmalade x 5
Coffee, instant x 3
Tea boxes x 3

Light/Heat
Candles (Thanks viv)
Coal sack x 6
Small gas hob x 3
Batteries AA, AAA, D
Torch

Medicine
Toothpaste x 3
Toilet paper 12 pack x 3
Mouthwash by x 6
Inhalers x 6
Antibiotics x 3
Panadol x 4
Supplements x 4
Disinfectant, Iodine or Betadine

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 01, 2019, 12:26:14 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 01, 2019, 09:38:49 AM
Today's Brexit roundup:

Up to a third of UK companies are looking to send some or all operations overseas in the event of a no deal Brexit.

Schools are being allowed to relax regulations on school provided lunches, to ensure that they can continue to provide meal in the event of a no deal Brexit.

NHS staff are being informed that preparations are being made for them to be able to stay on site overnight in Kent, as police project 3-6 months of travel disruption in the event of no deal.

Up to 1000 Ministry of Defence staff are being prepared to be seconded to prepare for dealing with Brexit.
The NHS Kent one is the one thats the biggest surprise to me, how hard is it going to be to get in and out of kent, roads might be completely locked with trucks but surely trains would be ok.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on February 01, 2019, 01:11:14 PM
Quote from: Faust on February 01, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
In Ireland we should be good for Milk, eggs, beef and potatoes and most grain. However there is a risk to imports that use the UK as a land bridge either becoming prohibitively expensive or unavailable for a while.
Electricity and fresh water should be ok but it's worth including if possible

At the risk of coming across as a Fallout post apocalyptic fetishist here's what I am thinking:

<snip>


I would also suggest you consider:

flour, sugar, salt, vinegar
fruit juice (of a type that doesn't require refrigeration)
water filters (but if you get to the point of needing them, they won't help much)
dish soap (something general purpose, that doesn't irritate skin)
bandages, isopropyl alcohol
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on February 01, 2019, 04:48:22 PM
Also, if you have any smokers, keep the ashes. They can be used to scrub down surfaces so the soap can be saved for hands.

Seriously consider a few spools of steel wire and an acetylene torch as well. Steel wire and sufficient heat makes a wide variety of good little tools and minor "bandaid" repairs on the fly, and if it gets bad enough you need any of this stuff, I promise hardware stores will be desolate places, ransacked to the bare bones.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 01, 2019, 05:54:31 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 01, 2019, 09:38:49 AM
Today's Brexit roundup:

Up to a third of UK companies are looking to send some or all operations overseas in the event of a no deal Brexit.

Schools are being allowed to relax regulations on school provided lunches, to ensure that they can continue to provide meal in the event of a no deal Brexit.

NHS staff are being informed that preparations are being made for them to be able to stay on site overnight in Kent, as police project 3-6 months of travel disruption in the event of no deal.

Up to 1000 Ministry of Defence staff are being prepared to be seconded to prepare for dealing with Brexit.

This is such a great idea.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 01, 2019, 05:54:37 PM
Quote from: Faust on February 01, 2019, 12:26:14 PM

The NHS Kent one is the one thats the biggest surprise to me, how hard is it going to be to get in and out of kent, roads might be completely locked with trucks but surely trains would be ok.

Train network has been underfunded for years and already operating at 180% capacity (averaged out).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 14, 2019, 09:22:49 PM
So the government has actually failed to hire any ferries.

Also the UK has failed to roll over the vast majority of its existing trade deals, leaving over 100 billion in trade not covered by treaties.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2019, 09:52:20 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 14, 2019, 09:22:49 PM
So the government has actually failed to hire any ferries.

Also the UK has failed to roll over the vast majority of its existing trade deals, leaving over 100 billion in trade not covered by treaties.

I guess they felt that they couldn't allow Trump to dominate the stupidity.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 14, 2019, 09:53:54 PM
There was also a vote against the only deal available (while rejecting no deal, and staying in the EU). But no actual suggestions of an alternative.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2019, 09:55:28 PM
This is absolutely fascinating, in the way that a horrible train wreck is fascinating.  The stupid is physically harming my brain, but I can't look away.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 15, 2019, 10:07:07 AM
It stems back to a very basic problem (because some of this back and forth would be normal for negotiations):
When negotiation fails, you revert to the status quo. In this case a breakdown in negotiation defaults to the worst outcome. So here we are, a month and a half away from the cliff edge
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 15, 2019, 01:58:45 PM
I'm thinking scotland is going to get particularly hilarious real soon. On one side we have a bunch of spineless hippies screaming for independence on the other side we have battle of the boyne reenactment society whom, ever since the last indyref, have preactically replaced roman catholics with nationalists as the target of their loyalist bile. Could get messy and civil war-y if the nats can just find their way to growing some balls. Martial Law anyone? So much opportunity for profit and lulz I'm practically salivating.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 15, 2019, 02:33:58 PM
If it came to it again in a no deal scenario, would you vote to stay in the UK or Leave?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 15, 2019, 07:26:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2019, 09:52:20 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 14, 2019, 09:22:49 PM
So the government has actually failed to hire any ferries.

Also the UK has failed to roll over the vast majority of its existing trade deals, leaving over 100 billion in trade not covered by treaties.

I guess they felt that they couldn't allow Trump to dominate the stupidity.

Even the rest of the Tory party are getting sick of how the ERG has essentially hijacked the party.  There's been some pretty credible reports of discontents from both Labour and the Tories joining up with a Lib Dem backed venture.  I mean, that won't make things any better, probably just fracture Parliamentary voting blocks even further, and they're not exactly A-list names...but things are getting dicey.

If something isn't sorted by the 27th, No Deal is more or less guaranteed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 15, 2019, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 15, 2019, 07:26:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2019, 09:52:20 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 14, 2019, 09:22:49 PM
So the government has actually failed to hire any ferries.

Also the UK has failed to roll over the vast majority of its existing trade deals, leaving over 100 billion in trade not covered by treaties.

I guess they felt that they couldn't allow Trump to dominate the stupidity.

Even the rest of the Tory party are getting sick of how the ERG has essentially hijacked the party.  There's been some pretty credible reports of discontents from both Labour and the Tories joining up with a Lib Dem backed venture.  I mean, that won't make things any better, probably just fracture Parliamentary voting blocks even further, and they're not exactly A-list names...but things are getting dicey.

If something isn't sorted by the 27th, No Deal is more or less guaranteed.

Is there any bloc at all that is saying you should just drop Brexit?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 15, 2019, 11:32:20 PM
The Lib Dems and their 11 MPs
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 16, 2019, 12:57:06 AM
Quote from: Cain on February 15, 2019, 11:32:20 PM
The Lib Dems and their 11 MPs

Oh.  You're fucked.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 18, 2019, 05:45:25 PM
No, wait, 7 MPs have chosen now, today, to defect from Labour and save us from Brexit!

We did it, Reddit! Independent Party (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/18/labour-mps-split-a-clear-attempt-to-start-a-new-party).

I agree with the expert analysis of the wrongly broadcast BBC voices (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/feb/18/bbc-apologises-for-hot-mic-swearing-during-labour-split-broadcast): "Between this and Brexit we are actually fucked, it's going to be so divided ... The Conservatives are going to win."

Oh well. At least people with a "funny tinge (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/18/angela-smith-apologises-for-funny-tinge-remark)" can rest safe, knowing the Independent Party has their best interests at heart.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 18, 2019, 11:13:39 PM
This all feels like a distraction from the ticking clock. Today was a clowncar of fun, could almost hear "Entry the gladiators" as the headlines came in through the day
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 18, 2019, 11:38:53 PM
Oh it totally is.

You know the best part? They're not even a registered party yet. That's why they're so deathly afraid of having by-elections in their constituencies.  This has led to the hilarious position that it's OK to go back and ask the people again because the facts on the ground have changed re: Brexit, but not when it comes to your MP dumping the party and the manifesto they supported 18 months ago.

Not that they have the money to fight 7 by-elections yet. And at least two of them were parachuted into Labour safe seats and so aren't exactly loved by their constituents in the first place.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 19, 2019, 12:00:27 AM
On the bright side, if there was an extension of A50 for an election, there is a chance all 7 of them get wiped out, maybe May might not need to rely on the DUP.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 20, 2019, 05:42:11 PM
I don't think that's on the cards.

Which does raise a rather important question: why now? They're not actually going to be able to impact on anything important, even with today's defections.

It just strikes me as an exercise in ego, a bunch of second-tier centrists attempting to hijack and control the Remain crowd any way they can. And this goes doubly for the former Tories, who have just made May even more reliant on the ERG and DUP
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 26, 2019, 01:09:57 PM
So we're going to vote on May's deal on March 12th.

If that doesn't pass, which it probably won't, then there will be a vote to see if Parliament will back a no deal Brexit.

If that vote doesn't pass, then Parliament will be asked if it wants to extend negotiations, likely only for a couple of months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 26, 2019, 02:09:30 PM
So no deal is not removed (because at that point the EU have no incentive in negotiating at all).
Extension past June Means running MEPs and contributing 7Bn to the budget.
So either labour need to be successful in getting the referendum run again or a final say ref with new choices.
A border poll is run in NI, potentially allowing the rest of the UK the deal without the backstop.
Or the UK ends up in permanent limbo of short term extensions.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 26, 2019, 05:08:21 PM
There's also now two chances for no deal as an outcome, from three votes
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 26, 2019, 07:31:03 PM
There's also less incentive now for Remainers to support May's first vote, as they have the option of supporting the Article 50 extension.

In other words, this is actually increasing the chance of No Deal Brexit while superficially appearing not to.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 26, 2019, 11:48:02 PM
I suppose it's the same three choices
No deal
Mays deal
Remain (either by cancel A50 or repeated extensions)
if they are serious about not wanting no deal it and extensions are not granted, then their choices come back to her deal or no deal.

In Ireland our arrogant fucker of a taoiseach referred to his party as the United Ireland party, as they believe either No deal, or Mays deal brings NI closer to the republic. Only remain now keeps the status quo. Talking like this will damage the good trade relationship that is there.
There have been repeated claims that in the no deal scenario Ireland will have to put up a border. Ireland ceded its claim to the north as part of the GFA, if that goes NI is contested territory again, and no border needs to be erected.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on March 07, 2019, 10:13:15 AM
Ever heard that old joke "If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it?"
Well just to clarify where the power lies in the UK have a squint at this
https://www.globalresearch.ca/shocking-study-no-mainstream-media-outlet-dared-publish/5670569
The headline is tabloid but the research is very interesting
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 08, 2019, 01:13:26 PM
I'm surprised GR aren't cheering that on, given their normal ideological and geopolitical preferences.

In other news, apparently Islamophobia is a job for the Foreign Office according to the government. Because Muslims are foreigners.

Also the killings undertaken by police and the military in Northern Ireland are all cool.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 08, 2019, 03:02:46 PM
I'm gonna say this again, you know, you guys should really get the fuck out of there.  That shit isn't America with a goofy ass, brain damaged Nazi, that shit is famine.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 08, 2019, 05:50:05 PM
I've made arrangements, just in case.  But I'm not going to be run out by these morons, not without getting to say "I fucking told you so" before I get lynched.

Besides, the way things are going, they will probably revoke my passport and exile me back to Australia anyway.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pergamos on March 08, 2019, 07:59:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 08, 2019, 05:50:05 PM
I've made arrangements, just in case.  But I'm not going to be run out by these morons, not without getting to say "I fucking told you so" before I get lynched.

Besides, the way things are going, they will probably revoke my passport and exile me back to Australia anyway.

They want out of the commonwealth too?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 08, 2019, 08:06:51 PM
No, for both the UK and Australia.

But we're deporting veterans, and UK law is that you can rescind nationality if the person won't be rendered stateless (ie; is a dual-national), so I don't have a chance in hell.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 11, 2019, 07:37:58 AM
This week's going to be a shitshow.

Tomorrow, Parliament votes on May's deal.  Again.  They will reject it, again, because no progress has been made on talks in Europe.

When that fails, we will have a vote on Wednesday, on whether the UK should avoid a No Deal Brexit.  That will probably pass.

Then on Thursday, assuming the Wednesday vote passes, there will be a vote on whether to extend Article 50.  I haven't seen the wargaming on this yet, but my suspicion is that this will not pass, as the insane portion of the press have done a good job in convincing people that delaying Brexit = no Brexit.

With no mechanisms to enforce the "avoiding no deal" vote, while having definitely voted for that outcome, Parliament will descend into chaos as there is 2 weeks until Brexit happens and no way forward. 

If Article 50 is extended, it can only be done so for a couple of months at maximum, and given the EU's clear position I doubt any more alterations to their position are forthcoming. The UK will then end up in the same position in May, with right-wing loonies working themselves up into a frothing frenzy in the meantime.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 11, 2019, 11:57:31 AM
The only way mays deal could get through is at 11PM on the 29th. And only if enough ministers have self preservation of their own investments in not tanking the economy. It would be the only scenario where enough people switch position on Mays deal but if comes to that the most likely outcome is a delay or ripping up article 50.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 11, 2019, 06:12:14 PM
And even then, I would only give it even odds of passing.

And, lets remember, this is the negotiation for the political settlement. The economic negotiating will be brutal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2019, 08:32:32 AM
The last minute "concessions" from the EU on the backstop won't be enough to sway today's vote. And given that, in substance, nothing has changed they probably shouldn't be.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 12, 2019, 08:48:17 AM
If the UK is committed to no border in NI, which it has said at every point it is, why not own that decision and just remove the backstop from the EU negotiations at all.

Have a political declaration or treaty built on the good Friday agreement that NI will stay in the customs union with the border down the Irish sea. Instead of shying away from it, own the decision.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2019, 09:58:50 AM
In that scenario the DUP would collapse the government for putting NI on a different regulatory framework to the rest of the UK permanently.

Speaking of which, the DUP wants to delay the vote to study the declaration more, while the ERG lawyers say it doesn't satisfy their demands.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 12, 2019, 10:31:37 AM
There's no way out of the deadlock while the DUP are there unless enough labour rebels and the independent group went for her deal which I don't think they will. An election could in theory sort out the DUP issue, but not the ERG. Though to be honest I've always had the feeling the ERG used the backstop as an excuse to get what they really want which is no deal.

Realistically though this is the world where votes go wrong and the new government would be an even weaker brand of Tory with 1 or 2 more DUP beasties in there for good measure.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2019, 05:54:14 PM
And yet that's what may happen.

People are predicting today's vote fails, despite some ERG defections, tomorrow's vote passes, Thursday's vote passes.  Parliament is dissolved, elections are called for, the Tory party falls to civil war and we get a second referendum.

It's far, far too optimistic.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2019, 07:25:17 PM
Well, there we go
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2019, 07:38:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2019, 07:25:17 PM
Well, there we go

???
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2019, 07:39:00 PM
Deal rejected, again
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2019, 07:42:47 PM
Let me know when it's time to stop "Keeping Calm and Carrying On".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2019, 07:45:06 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2019, 07:39:00 PM
Deal rejected, again

I'm guessing she's just going to put the stupid fucking thing up for another vote?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2019, 08:23:01 PM
Nope, there's no more time for that.

Tomorrow there is a vote on whether to pursue No Deal or not, and then on Thursday there will be a vote on extending Article 50.

The vote to reject No Deal will pass, and it's likely so will the vote to extend Article 50.  However, with Europe now being done with negotiating and there being no viable "Plan B" the question of extending to what end can no longer be avoided.

From here things will get messy.  May could pursue a softer version of Brexit, remaining in the Customs Union.  This would be sensible, and could command enough support from Labour and moderate Tories to pass, but the far-right will label her as a traitor who betrayed Brexit forever more.

There could be a second referendum, but May has already ruled that out.

The Tory party can't attempt to overthrow May again before December, because they already blew their load on that last December.  A general election could shake things up, but if May stands down as PM and Tory leader then there will be a Tory civil war which will likely rip the party apart.  And there's no guarantee that this would change the overall calculus in Parliament any.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2019, 08:24:19 PM
And we have to leave before June regardless, because the European elections are then, and of course we didn't prepare for them because we intended to be out before then. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on March 12, 2019, 09:52:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2019, 08:23:01 PM
Nope, there's no more time for that.

Tomorrow there is a vote on whether to pursue No Deal or not, and then on Thursday there will be a vote on extending Article 50.

The vote to reject No Deal will pass, and it's likely so will the vote to extend Article 50.  However, with Europe now being done with negotiating and there being no viable "Plan B" the question of extending to what end can no longer be avoided.

From here things will get messy.  May could pursue a softer version of Brexit, remaining in the Customs Union.  This would be sensible, and could command enough support from Labour and moderate Tories to pass, but the far-right will label her as a traitor who betrayed Brexit forever more.

There could be a second referendum, but May has already ruled that out.

The Tory party can't attempt to overthrow May again before December, because they already blew their load on that last December.  A general election could shake things up, but if May stands down as PM and Tory leader then there will be a Tory civil war which will likely rip the party apart.  And there's no guarantee that this would change the overall calculus in Parliament any.

I have to ask how your guys in government get anything done at all ever with all this dog fucking.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2019, 10:22:12 PM
That's cute, you think we've done anything else for the past 2 years.

The NHS is falling apart, teachers are begging parents for money, homelessness has spiralled out of control, the army is being run on a skeleton crew, Russians are using WMDs in the streets and all we can talk about is tEh wIlL oF tEh pEoPlE
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2019, 05:42:22 PM
lulz, the government has something approaching minus infinity credibility.  After trying to enforce a three-line whip, several Cabinet members voted against May, and are still in their positions today, barring the one that resigned of her own volition.

The Tory party is falling apart.  All illusion of discipline is lost.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 14, 2019, 06:13:07 PM
Could that lead to cross party cooperation? Or more likely just more chaos
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2019, 06:15:02 PM
So long as May stubbornly clings to her red lines, only more chaos.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2019, 08:34:25 PM
Yay, MORE BREXIT
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 14, 2019, 10:36:50 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 14, 2019, 08:34:25 PM
Yay, MORE BREXIT

What now?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2019, 10:51:56 PM
Article 50 extended. If Europe agrees, we can have months more of this bullshit to look forward to, maybe even years
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 14, 2019, 10:53:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 14, 2019, 10:51:56 PM
Article 50 extended. If Europe agrees, we can have months more of this bullshit to look forward to, maybe even years

This is the future I was promised.  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 15, 2019, 08:47:24 PM
More muddled bullshit:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/brexit-ministers-trying-to-win-over-dup-in-talks-on-legal-guarantees/ar-BBUODuA?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 15, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
Well we have to have a third vote on May's rejected plan, see.

Because asking the people just once is democracy, while asking Parliament the same thing over and over again is....also democracy?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 16, 2019, 01:52:06 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 15, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
Well we have to have a third vote on May's rejected plan, see.

Because asking the people just once is democracy, while asking Parliament the same thing over and over again is....also democracy?

How is nobody having a field day with that?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 18, 2019, 04:21:05 PM
Bercow has had enough. The Speaker just said an hour ago that he won't allow yet another vote on the same legislation.

I actually quite like Bercow, he's not easily cowed by the Tory crazies, which pisses them off no end.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 07:24:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 18, 2019, 04:21:05 PM
Bercow has had enough. The Speaker just said an hour ago that he won't allow yet another vote on the same legislation.

I actually quite like Bercow, he's not easily cowed by the Tory crazies, which pisses them off no end.

Prediction:  May will wait a week, change the wording in a single clause, and run it through parliament.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 18, 2019, 08:04:40 PM
Bercow has said that unless there's a change that the EU agrees to, he won't do it.

I mean, May would certainly try that. She is the first PM to ever be found in contempt of Parliament, after all.

More likely, May will end the Parliamentary session, since that would allow her to put the vote forward again.  But it would make it clear that she is being a tard.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 09:13:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 18, 2019, 08:04:40 PM
Bercow has said that unless there's a change that the EU agrees to, he won't do it.

I mean, May would certainly try that. She is the first PM to ever be found in contempt of Parliament, after all.

More likely, May will end the Parliamentary session, since that would allow her to put the vote forward again.  But it would make it clear that she is being a tard.

To the people WAY THE FUCK in the back row.  :lol:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 20, 2019, 05:32:06 PM
Well, the EU just lost their patience.

They just said a short extentsion of Article 50 will require Parliament to pass May's deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on March 20, 2019, 05:34:09 PM
STRAP IN, BOYS!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 20, 2019, 05:36:24 PM
People are talking like this will prevent No Deal, which just shows how they don't understand anything.

Parliament has to agree on something, which the EU can then agree on, to prevent No Deal.  Or the EU has to extend Article 50.

Unless those conditions are met, No Deal is the automatic outcome, whatever Parliament has voted for.  It's the default.  And it's due to expire next Friday.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on March 20, 2019, 05:41:47 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 20, 2019, 05:36:24 PM
People are talking like this will prevent No Deal, which just shows how they don't understand anything.

Parliament has to agree on something, which the EU can then agree on, to prevent No Deal.  Or the EU has to extend Article 50.

Unless those conditions are met, No Deal is the automatic outcome, whatever Parliament has voted for.  It's the default.  And it's due to expire next Friday.

Parliament has to agree on something


Parliament has to agree on something



Parliament has to agree on something




Parliament has to agree on something
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 20, 2019, 05:51:19 PM
Exactly, you grasp the inherent flaw.

So I have a small bet on May triggering the civil contingencies act after her speech this evening at 8pm and declaring martial law.  Especially since the word on the street is she intends to go "above the heads" of Parliament which is impossible given...Parliament is sovereign.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 20, 2019, 05:52:15 PM
Also Macron is apparently even more pissed than the EU and has threatened, according to unconfirmed French media reports, to veto all delays to Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 20, 2019, 06:05:43 PM
Oh, and Operation Yellowhammer, the "No Deal" contingency plan was meant to be mobilised this weekend for Monday anyway.

Not that Operation Yellowhammer has anywhere the resources needed to handle No Deal Brexit, which is why we will be abandoning all customs checks at the borders to keep goods coming in, apparently.

Yay, legalised smuggling.  Lead paint chips for everyone!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on March 20, 2019, 06:22:46 PM
It'll be a Libertarian paradise.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on March 20, 2019, 08:17:52 PM
There is so much HERE. I don't know what to tell you U.K. folks, it's like the American preppers were right but on the wrong landmass, and assuming malice instead of dogfucking stupidity.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Telarus on March 20, 2019, 08:34:40 PM
 :horrormirth:

Thanks for the updates, Cain.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 20, 2019, 11:45:43 PM
I'm fairly certain the EU tactic now is to allow no deal to happen, asset stripping commences, either the UK comes back either looking for Mays deal or full customs union without the backstop.
11% or 1tn pounds of the asset management portfolio is moving out of the UK and that is now regardless of brexit happening or not, they cant wait any longer
https://www.ft.com/content/016171be-4a74-11e9-8b7f-d49067e0f50d
I would expect these to increase after no deal occurs.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2019, 01:23:44 AM
Quote from: Faust on March 20, 2019, 11:45:43 PM
I'm fairly certain the EU tactic now is to allow no deal to happen, asset stripping commences, either the UK comes back either looking for Mays deal or full customs union without the backstop.
11% or 1tn pounds of the asset management portfolio is moving out of the UK and that is now regardless of brexit happening or not, they cant wait any longer
https://www.ft.com/content/016171be-4a74-11e9-8b7f-d49067e0f50d
I would expect these to increase after no deal occurs.

Anyone that waits until no deal is horribly fucked and too stupid to handle money.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2019, 07:24:58 AM
Parliament literally doesn't understand how businesss work, despite Tory fetishisation of them.

"Companies have to order things and plan in advance?! REMOANER WRECKERS!"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2019, 08:03:12 AM
People in downing street frantically googling "What is a supply chain", followed by "gravity of trade" followed by "what to stockpile in a zombie apocalypse"

I dont know if I agree that the EU would be stupid to allow no deal to happen. Firstly they have no choice, Ireland will veto any deal without the backstop, and second they have been open about their requirements all along.

There's this constant attempt to recontextualise the problem as the EUs to solve,  IE the UK wants it to drop the backstop which wont happen,  no deal is preferrable. If no deal is to happen it better be without extension then prolonging this further.
It may be the only way the UK realises the backstop is non negotiable and will be waiting should they ever want a trade deal,  security deal,  medical research collab, or to restore the flow of goods in and out.
Item 1 on the agenda will always be the backstop. In five years,  ten,  thirty. It will be similar to the Greece/Turkey veto.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 21, 2019, 08:33:14 AM
What is this backstop you speak of? Not being cheeky. I literally have no idea what you mean.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2019, 09:57:43 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 21, 2019, 08:33:14 AM
What is this backstop you speak of? Not being cheeky. I literally have no idea what you mean.

Crash course Northern Ireland:
Catholics in Northern Ireland had for decades been treated as second class citizens which led to guerilla warfare by the IRA and a whole list of atrocities committed by
The IRA (Republican, see themselves as Irish) Bombings, shootings, disappearances
UVF (Loyalist, see themselves as British)  Bombings, shootings, disappearances
The British Army (used to keep the peace, occasionally fucked up and intentionally or accidentally shot innocent people and children)

Eventually everyone got sick of a war without end.
In 1998, The UK and Ireland (with the US and EU as guarantor) signed a peace treaty called The Good Friday agreement. In short it ended a lot of issues by recognizing the rights of republicans in NI as Irish. Specifically the text is "The right to live as British, Irish or both".
This had the following effects:
Borders were dismantled
The army removed
Ireland removed its claim to Northern Ireland (which it had had since the formation of the state)
The IRA disarmed
People stopped being killed
No one was satisfied or happy but compromised for a lasting peace

This was largely possible because both Ireland and the UK were part of the same customs territory, which deviation would require the introduction of a border.
To the UK a border is just a practicality of mantaining taxation, regulation on goods
To Ireland and the Irish in NI, it is a symbol of division, a symbolic Berlin wall

Negotiation:
At the start of these negotiations, Ireland insisted that the UK uphold the Good Friday agreement, this was handwaved away, a response the UK has had for Ireland for centuries. This time something was different. As the Nation most effected by Brexit the EU said "Hang on, we need to sort this out first."
In 2017 The Tory government committed that yes northern Ireland would not be a problem.
The EU put that in a legal text, first proposed as NI directly stay in the Customs Union, which the DUP, a Northern Irish Unionist group (A set of ten time travelers from the 1600's who somehow hold the UK governments balance of power) balked at this.
May evaded committing to this legal text until 2018, it became "the backstop", where Northern Ireland stays in the EU customs union if no other solution is found.
She eventually agreed to this in principle with the EU.
It was shot to pieces when she brought the agreement back to parliament. It is seen as an attempt to Annex Northern Ireland, or by extension control the UK after it leaves the EU. Which I do kind of understand, but the alternative means ripping up a peace treaty.
In reality all Ireland has requested is that NI stay exactly as it is now, Uphold the existing commitment to the Good Friday agreement.

Since then there have been attempts to instead time limit the backstop (IE that it just expires after an amount of time, and then the GFA is reneged on and a border put in place). Ireland has rejected this, as have the EU.
Since then a game of chicken has been played where the UK has assumed that the EU would eventually throw Ireland under the bus and time limit the backstop.
Even if the EU does, to ratify any trade agreement it requires a unanimous vote: Which Ireland will veto. There are still some people who think Ireland will blink, which is unlikely, if our government compromise they will be seen to have betrayed the people of Northern Ireland, at best they would never be voted in again ( I cant understate how important this issue is to the average person).
Therefore the only outcomes that remained were "No deal", "Cancel brexit" or "Reconsider this rejected agreement"

The potential consequences of no deal are:
Worldwide economic collapse (unlikely)
Recession in the EU (probable)
10-20 year economic depression in the UK (Likely in any outcome, including taking the deal, but is estimated at 10% of GDP in no deal)
Food shortages for the UK (unlikely, but possible)
Medical shortage (likely, the UK falls out of the regulatory framework for these unless it adopts all of the EU standards)
Energy disputes (Eirgrid own the grid infrastructure of northern Ireland, and without a dispute mechanism in place for resolving energy payments  they will be requiring energy payments for NI in advance, if not NI could face power outages) (likely)
And most significantly supply chains in the UK which rely on Just in time or have goods that perish could go from a number of hours through the channel tunnel to days. (likely)
That's off the top of my head.

If an economic collapse of the same magnitude of Lehaman brothers is the outcome of no deal brexit, it is a demonstration of why peace in Northern Ireland is so important.  Economic chaos is the price to be paid to uphold that commitment to the rights of the people of Northern Ireland and to protect the peace treaty.

In a warped sense of satisfaction, (and this is where I want people to warn me if I have been drinking the nationalist coolaid) for 80 years Northern Ireland has been Ireland's problem, and it has been dismissed and dismissed.
Now its Everyone's problem.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on March 21, 2019, 11:54:27 AM
Quote from: Faust on March 21, 2019, 09:57:43 AM

In a warped sense of satisfaction, (and this is where I want people to warn me if I have been drinking the nationalist coolaid) for 80 years Northern Ireland has been Ireland's problem, and it has been dismissed and dismissed.
Now its Everyone's problem.

Personally, I get it I think.

It's not the same thing at all, but I look at it how trans rights went from "a few freaks no one cares about" to "major social issue" over the course of about two years.

Yeah, it put me in more danger in the medium term, because horrible little goblins are aware I exist and intend to punish me for it, but it isn't something just me and the 15 internet people I know talk about now, now everyone needs to give a fuck about it one way or the other.

Just finally having all of the bullshit you've put up with in relative secrecy out in the open is liberating, even if everything is going to catch fire around it. I think you're fine.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2019, 12:32:15 PM
I think Faust is being a little optimistic about the effects on the EU and world economy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on March 21, 2019, 12:50:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2019, 12:32:15 PM
I think Faust is being a little optimistic about the effects on the EU and world economy.

How bad do you expect?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2019, 01:05:34 PM
Quote from: nullified on March 21, 2019, 12:50:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2019, 12:32:15 PM
I think Faust is being a little optimistic about the effects on the EU and world economy.

How bad do you expect?

1929 destroyed 5% of the world's GDP.

This will destroy 6%.

Fleeing capital not included, one trillion pounds will vanish at the stroke of midnight.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2019, 02:30:28 PM
I wouldn't say optimistic, but there are temporary emergency measures in place for 9 months, if the big ooops is going to come it is going to come then. If it wasn't for them I would say it is likely to happen next week.
That said, you could see 9 months of people frantically divesting from the UK economy and moving it elsewhere so worldwide recession is probable.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2019, 02:59:39 PM
Quote from: nullified on March 21, 2019, 11:54:27 AM
Quote from: Faust on March 21, 2019, 09:57:43 AM

In a warped sense of satisfaction, (and this is where I want people to warn me if I have been drinking the nationalist coolaid) for 80 years Northern Ireland has been Ireland's problem, and it has been dismissed and dismissed.
Now its Everyone's problem.

Personally, I get it I think.

It's not the same thing at all, but I look at it how trans rights went from "a few freaks no one cares about" to "major social issue" over the course of about two years.

Yeah, it put me in more danger in the medium term, because horrible little goblins are aware I exist and intend to punish me for it, but it isn't something just me and the 15 internet people I know talk about now, now everyone needs to give a fuck about it one way or the other.

Just finally having all of the bullshit you've put up with in relative secrecy out in the open is liberating, even if everything is going to catch fire around it. I think you're fine.
I don't have a frame of context not being trans myself, but years of being marginalised and rebuffed, or concerns dismissed as irrelevant, yes it is that sense of relief that should everything go down the shitter now, it is impossible to ignore any further.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 21, 2019, 06:28:21 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 21, 2019, 08:03:12 AM
People in downing street frantically googling "What is a supply chain", followed by "gravity of trade" followed by "what to stockpile in a zombie apocalypse"

If only.  They were too busy making a video to own Parliament and spam on Facebook of her speech last night.

I wish I were making this up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 21, 2019, 07:00:49 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 21, 2019, 09:57:43 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 21, 2019, 08:33:14 AM
What is this backstop you speak of? Not being cheeky. I literally have no idea what you mean.

Crash course Northern Ireland:
Catholics in Northern Ireland had for decades been treated as second class citizens which led to guerilla warfare by the IRA and a whole list of atrocities committed by
The IRA (Republican, see themselves as Irish) Bombings, shootings, disappearances
UVF (Loyalist, see themselves as British)  Bombings, shootings, disappearances
The British Army (used to keep the peace, occasionally fucked up and intentionally or accidentally shot innocent people and children)

Eventually everyone got sick of a war without end.
In 1998, The UK and Ireland (with the US and EU as guarantor) signed a peace treaty called The Good Friday agreement. In short it ended a lot of issues by recognizing the rights of republicans in NI as Irish. Specifically the text is "The right to live as British, Irish or both".
This had the following effects:
Borders were dismantled
The army removed
Ireland removed its claim to Northern Ireland (which it had had since the formation of the state)
The IRA disarmed
People stopped being killed
No one was satisfied or happy but compromised for a lasting peace

This was largely possible because both Ireland and the UK were part of the same customs territory, which deviation would require the introduction of a border.
To the UK a border is just a practicality of mantaining taxation, regulation on goods
To Ireland and the Irish in NI, it is a symbol of division, a symbolic Berlin wall

Negotiation:
At the start of these negotiations, Ireland insisted that the UK uphold the Good Friday agreement, this was handwaved away, a response the UK has had for Ireland for centuries. This time something was different. As the Nation most effected by Brexit the EU said "Hang on, we need to sort this out first."
In 2017 The Tory government committed that yes northern Ireland would not be a problem.
The EU put that in a legal text, first proposed as NI directly stay in the Customs Union, which the DUP, a Northern Irish Unionist group (A set of ten time travelers from the 1600's who somehow hold the UK governments balance of power) balked at this.
May evaded committing to this legal text until 2018, it became "the backstop", where Northern Ireland stays in the EU customs union if no other solution is found.
She eventually agreed to this in principle with the EU.
It was shot to pieces when she brought the agreement back to parliament. It is seen as an attempt to Annex Northern Ireland, or by extension control the UK after it leaves the EU. Which I do kind of understand, but the alternative means ripping up a peace treaty.
In reality all Ireland has requested is that NI stay exactly as it is now, Uphold the existing commitment to the Good Friday agreement.

Since then there have been attempts to instead time limit the backstop (IE that it just expires after an amount of time, and then the GFA is reneged on and a border put in place). Ireland has rejected this, as have the EU.
Since then a game of chicken has been played where the UK has assumed that the EU would eventually throw Ireland under the bus and time limit the backstop.
Even if the EU does, to ratify any trade agreement it requires a unanimous vote: Which Ireland will veto. There are still some people who think Ireland will blink, which is unlikely, if our government compromise they will be seen to have betrayed the people of Northern Ireland, at best they would never be voted in again ( I cant understate how important this issue is to the average person).
Therefore the only outcomes that remained were "No deal", "Cancel brexit" or "Reconsider this rejected agreement"

The potential consequences of no deal are:
Worldwide economic collapse (unlikely)
Recession in the EU (probable)
10-20 year economic depression in the UK (Likely in any outcome, including taking the deal, but is estimated at 10% of GDP in no deal)
Food shortages for the UK (unlikely, but possible)
Medical shortage (likely, the UK falls out of the regulatory framework for these unless it adopts all of the EU standards)
Energy disputes (Eirgrid own the grid infrastructure of northern Ireland, and without a dispute mechanism in place for resolving energy payments  they will be requiring energy payments for NI in advance, if not NI could face power outages) (likely)
And most significantly supply chains in the UK which rely on Just in time or have goods that perish could go from a number of hours through the channel tunnel to days. (likely)
That's off the top of my head.

If an economic collapse of the same magnitude of Lehaman brothers is the outcome of no deal brexit, it is a demonstration of why peace in Northern Ireland is so important.  Economic chaos is the price to be paid to uphold that commitment to the rights of the people of Northern Ireland and to protect the peace treaty.

In a warped sense of satisfaction, (and this is where I want people to warn me if I have been drinking the nationalist coolaid) for 80 years Northern Ireland has been Ireland's problem, and it has been dismissed and dismissed.
Now its Everyone's problem.
Okay thanks Faust. I think I get it better now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Telarus on March 21, 2019, 11:06:43 PM
That brought things re: Brexit into a whole new focus for me. Thanks!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2019, 11:38:05 PM
Looks like a stay of execution.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 21, 2019, 11:45:39 PM
12th of April is the new cliff edge, I'd imagine that will get kicked out a couple of times, but wont go past may 23rd and the EU elections.

Quote from: Cain on March 21, 2019, 06:28:21 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 21, 2019, 08:03:12 AM
People in downing street frantically googling "What is a supply chain", followed by "gravity of trade" followed by "what to stockpile in a zombie apocalypse"

If only.  They were too busy making a video to own Parliament and spam on Facebook of her speech last night.

I wish I were making this up.
That was the most unsettling speech I've seen in years. Whole bunch of complex emotions watching it. Revolting, incitement of violence against MPs, odes to fascism without the charisma or good dress sense of fascism. Alternating between outraged with her, and wanting to go up and hug her.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2019, 01:01:10 AM
Quote from: Faust on March 21, 2019, 11:45:39 PM
12th of April is the new cliff edge, I'd imagine that will get kicked out a couple of times, but wont go past may 23rd and the EU elections.

Quote from: Cain on March 21, 2019, 06:28:21 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 21, 2019, 08:03:12 AM
People in downing street frantically googling "What is a supply chain", followed by "gravity of trade" followed by "what to stockpile in a zombie apocalypse"

If only.  They were too busy making a video to own Parliament and spam on Facebook of her speech last night.

I wish I were making this up.
That was the most unsettling speech I've seen in years. Whole bunch of complex emotions watching it. Revolting, incitement of violence against MPs, odes to fascism without the charisma or good dress sense of fascism. Alternating between outraged with her, and wanting to go up and hug her.

I loved the whole "we can vote on my plan until people do it" and in the same breath "no second referendum".  :lulz:

I wonder what Putin has on the silly old bag?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on March 22, 2019, 01:08:49 AM
At this point it's either stratospheric to the point of sounding like fevered conspiracy nut psychosis or she's so stupid he needn't have anything on her at all.

Children and dogs are going to be chasing her through the streets, barefoot and clutching shivs of broken glass. She is going to be a pariah, and she just keeps digging. There isn't any rational reason to do this unless the alternative is worse, or she's too dumb to be permitted to breathe without a handler.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 22, 2019, 05:42:13 PM
The EU did basically lowkey tell us to overthrow her yesterday.  Obviously they can't explicitly call for regime change, they're not Americans...but it was nevertheless very telling.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2019, 06:45:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 22, 2019, 05:42:13 PM
The EU did basically lowkey tell us to overthrow her yesterday.  Obviously they can't explicitly call for regime change, they're not Americans...but it was nevertheless very telling.

She's sort of like Thatcher chewing on paint chips, really.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on March 22, 2019, 07:36:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2019, 06:45:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 22, 2019, 05:42:13 PM
The EU did basically lowkey tell us to overthrow her yesterday.  Obviously they can't explicitly call for regime change, they're not Americans...but it was nevertheless very telling.

She's sort of like Thatcher chewing on paint chips, really.

Good to know I wasn't mistaken. I wasn't alive for that time period but the impression I got from The Stories was that May is Thatcher's self destructive, idiotic sister.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 24, 2019, 12:13:23 PM
So, this coup... Can May literally just say "no", because they cant no confidence her? Or just say, fine, I will stand down after the exit date?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 24, 2019, 12:22:04 PM
Yup, she can.

And from the sounds of it, that is exactly what she will do.  Her chief whip, and all the other whips, told her yesterday they had no confidence in her leadership any more...and, perhaps more crucially, that the vote for her deal will not pass unless she stands down.

She basically said "thank you for your thoughts" and carried on as though nothing had happened.  So I see no reason to think she will react differently to, say, the Cabinet threatening to resign.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 24, 2019, 03:56:48 PM
The ERG were so menacing with their threats of no confidence. They really should have waited if they wanted any kind of effective way of removing her.
I don't see a change of guard having any real effect other then whoever come in, being presented with the same choices.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 24, 2019, 04:09:56 PM
With the ERG you have to remember they have to balance May against the idea that someone like Corbyn might seize power and pursue an even closer relationship to Europe than May.  I'm half-convinced they did it at this point to prevent anyone else doing it and succeeding.

This is the closest the UK has been to a dictatorship since universal suffrage.  She has no political or public support, yet she just keeps on going.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 24, 2019, 05:53:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 24, 2019, 04:09:56 PM
With the ERG you have to remember they have to balance May against the idea that someone like Corbyn might seize power and pursue an even closer relationship to Europe than May.  I'm half-convinced they did it at this point to prevent anyone else doing it and succeeding.

This is the closest the UK has been to a dictatorship since universal suffrage.  She has no political or public support, yet she just keeps on going.
She won the vote, the people have spoken. And have no right to change their mind. Christ she has become the physical manifestation of Brexit itself
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 24, 2019, 11:43:56 PM
Quote from: nullified on March 22, 2019, 07:36:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2019, 06:45:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 22, 2019, 05:42:13 PM
The EU did basically lowkey tell us to overthrow her yesterday.  Obviously they can't explicitly call for regime change, they're not Americans...but it was nevertheless very telling.

She's sort of like Thatcher chewing on paint chips, really.

Good to know I wasn't mistaken. I wasn't alive for that time period but the impression I got from The Stories was that May is Thatcher's self destructive, idiotic sister.

She's essentially Thatcher, minus the cock and balls.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pergamos on March 25, 2019, 12:29:48 AM
I had the impression Thatcher was far more politically skilled.  She had the support of her party and the public.   May has neither.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on March 25, 2019, 03:06:20 AM

.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on March 25, 2019, 02:25:22 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on March 25, 2019, 03:06:20 AM

.

Yep :( that's all we have got to look forward to . . . a whole steaming pile of Zigazig aaaah
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 25, 2019, 04:21:12 PM
May's simultaneously saying she doesn't have enough votes to get her deal past Parliament but that she will reject every deal Parliament attempts out of hand.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 25, 2019, 04:49:27 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on March 25, 2019, 03:06:20 AM

.

That was a thing what I stole.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on March 27, 2019, 07:44:22 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 25, 2019, 04:21:12 PM
May's simultaneously saying she doesn't have enough votes to get her deal past Parliament but that she will reject every deal Parliament attempts out of hand.

It's got funnier.

May quitting when MP's back the deal that can't be brought before parliament without meaningful change. Bercow clear weeks ago that more support is not actually a change. Usual faces now playing the leadership game.

Various indicative votes trying to find some kind of consensus for anything. I think we can all guess how well that will go.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 27, 2019, 08:07:23 PM
Also Boris "Moses" Johnson throwing his political convictions to the wind the moment it looks like he can launch a leadership bid.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on March 27, 2019, 08:14:39 PM
Gove touted as a possibility. How? I thought he'd managed to throw nearly everyone under a bus by now.

Other contenders include "Fuck international Law" Javid and Leadsom. Which are just horrifying in their own ways. I take small solace in the fact that whoever ends up as PM, they will be held in utter contempt regardless of any of their actions.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 27, 2019, 10:05:10 PM
In the game of the blind parliament feeling up the elephant, "No", one every vote:

        No deal    160:400
        Common Market 2.0    188:283
        EFTA and EEA    65:367    
        Customs union    264:272
        Labour's alternative plan    237:307
        Revocation to avoid no deal    184:293
        Confirmatory public vote    268:295
        Contingent preferential arrangements    139:422

So they definitely dont want no deal
They don't want a Norway style deal
They definitely don't want full EEA membership
Could be tempted with a customs union (How this differs from EEA or the Norway customs union I don't know)
They definitely dont want the customs union described above, but from Corbyn
They don't want to revoke to avoid no deal (which means no deal is still the likely outcome as this happens in the absence of action)
Could be tempted to inflict these choice on an already weary public, but would prefer not to.
And I have no idea what a  Contingent preferential arrangements or why people are calling them managed no deal but it seems no one wants that.

By gathering the above broken shards of glass, piecing them together and driving them deep into my taint, I have been able to gain insight, that all of this should be avoided, however it would appear the UK has voted to cease to exist as it has rejected all possible outcomes.

Failing that, the closest option that loosely falls into that pattern, is Mays deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 28, 2019, 07:08:39 AM
Which will not be voted on again unless it undegoes significant changes, as per Bercow.

So once again, No Deal creeps closer, because neither Parliament nor the Government can actually decide on a course of action.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 28, 2019, 07:18:46 AM
And even if it is voted on and passes, since May has now promised to step down, if an ERG candidate becomes PM they will renege on the backstop, which will see the UK drop out of the EU without a deal in the 2 year transition period.

They've talked about this at length, so I'm fairly convinced they would do it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 28, 2019, 08:13:46 AM
That would be worse then not committing to it. Could result in sanctions or block trade deals with other nations. I would hope they would at least be smart enough to run a border poll before doing that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 28, 2019, 08:44:01 AM
They think the Vienna Treaty would give them an out.

Because they are morons. The Vienna Treaty did not allow the Russian Federation to renege on treaties signed when it was the Soviet Union so they will make no exceptions here.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 28, 2019, 09:36:38 AM
Meanwhile they all seem to be acting like the May 22nd extension is a given, that was only to ratify Mays deal. They have until 11PM tomorrow or the date automatically becomes the 12th April and a commitment to no deal is made.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 29, 2019, 11:01:02 AM
Yup.

BTW it might get a bit...rioty in London today
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 05, 2019, 08:27:58 AM
Seven days away from rolling cliff edge unless the UK wants to participate in EU elections.

Also water leak for Lord Protector, it would be a vast improvement
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 05, 2019, 05:46:31 PM
France and Holland seem very unlikely to approve another extension.

Not to mention May is taking the piss with this request. She sabotaged it, likely deliberatey, from the start.  By having the UK stay in until June 30th, it would have to take part in elections.  Hey, who wants to be an MEP for 3 weeks?

There would be a very strong suspicion that she might decline to take part in said elections, thereby throwing the EU into constitutional chaos, a la The Mogg's suggestions (his actual suggestions wouldn't work, but this would).

There's only two possible options here.  One, May wants cover to request a longer time period to negotiate in.  She knows if she outright asks for it, the looney wing of the Tory Party would eat her breakfast.  Or, she wants to go for No Deal Brexit, blame Europe and throw Europe into chaos in hope of getting a better trade deal down the line by inflicting maximum political and economic damage now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 05, 2019, 06:04:49 PM
To counter that the EU could offer two dates:
May 22nd for a short delay, 2024 for the next cycle of european elections. If it has made both short and long options available, May takes the blame for whichever she chooses
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 06, 2019, 11:12:29 AM
Which may be what she was after, if we believe the "secretly wants a long extension" thing.

But France and Holland sound pretty sick of all this. And May hasnt followed the outlined steps from the EU to secure even the May date yet (as it turned out, her talks with Labour the SNP were a sham. Her idea of compromise is "you compromise, I will not")
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 21, 2019, 04:15:11 PM
Lord buckethead is running for european parliament, please please unseat farage with him
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 21, 2019, 05:26:05 PM
Unfortunately, with the way European elections work, it's not going to happen.  But Lord Buckethead may prove a comic foil to the Farage in the EU Parliament, which is worth something. Maybe.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on April 21, 2019, 08:57:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 06, 2019, 11:12:29 AM
Which may be what she was after, if we believe the "secretly wants a long extension" thing.

... I have the sense of humor of a 12 year old.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on April 22, 2019, 10:59:29 AM
you are a very sad person <snirk>
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2019, 05:32:04 PM
A landslide for the only party openly campaigning for remaining in the EU in the local elections yesterday has been interpreted by Theresa May...as a message to "get on with it" over Brexit.

While you could argue that that the depressed Tory vote could be a protest from Leavers, especially since the Brexit Party are not running in the election, it's nevertheless the case that all parties openly pursuing Brexit, including Labour and UKIP, were punished at the polls, while the Greens and Lib Dems made massive gains.

Like...that's not a coincidence.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 03, 2019, 05:59:23 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 03, 2019, 05:32:04 PM
A landslide for the only party openly campaigning for remaining in the EU in the local elections yesterday has been interpreted by Theresa May...as a message to "get on with it" over Brexit.

While you could argue that that the depressed Tory vote could be a protest from Leavers, especially since the Brexit Party are not running in the election, it's nevertheless the case that all parties openly pursuing Brexit, including Labour and UKIP, were punished at the polls, while the Greens and Lib Dems made massive gains.

Like...that's not a coincidence.
It's nice to see the greens get a good few seats also. Though I'm not sure are they the same as here?
I kind of appreciate what she is implying with that "getting on with brexit" could just as easily be "last chance to save brexit". I also hope this has scared the rebels and ERG enough that they understand that a general election will be devastation for them and that regardless of whatever else happens they are now stuck with May until at least december.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 03, 2019, 06:07:04 PM
They're not exactly the same, but there's an organisation link through the Northern Ireland branch, and both are part of the European Green Party, so they're probably closer than most.

And the ERG never learn. There are new calls for May to step down due to the results.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 16, 2019, 05:27:39 PM
So May will set out a timeline for her own departure in June, after the (fourth) vote on her dumbass deal, which will not pass.

The 1922 Committe hauled her in today to demand a timeline of when she would depart, because, for the Tories, the leadership is more important than a working Brexit deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on May 16, 2019, 06:59:54 PM
I am quite looking forward to Boris Johnson or whatever prince who was promised going to the EU and being handed Mays deal, and being told to take the deal or take the hike
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 24, 2019, 08:04:41 PM
MAY IS GONE!

(soon)

Her replacement will be worse.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 24, 2019, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 24, 2019, 08:04:41 PM
MAY IS GONE!

(soon)

Her replacement will be worse.

I have commemorated her in my sig.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 25, 2019, 12:02:59 AM
Clearly she's crying about all those poor people she accidentally deported through not caring about due process or reasonable burdens of proof.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2019, 08:40:18 PM
Is this real?


Boris Johnson faces trial for allegedly "lying and misleading the British public" about the consequences of Brexit.

A judge summonsed the Conservative MP to appear in court after a member of the public launched a private prosecution over claims EU membership was costing the UK £350m a week.

District Judge Margot Coleman threw out arguments by Mr Johnson's lawyers that the case was a "vexatious" attempt to undermine the result of the 2016 referendum. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/boris-johnson-trial-brexit-court-lying-prosecution-nhs-vote-leave-a8934451.html?fbclid=IwAR0-JewFYHiQpJWu2tw9R-zVmfIR8nkeO2u9yblqYUf0GDgIJQtbXauH5xQ)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on May 29, 2019, 08:42:32 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 29, 2019, 08:40:18 PM
Is this real?




Boris Johnson faces trial for allegedly "lying and misleading the British public" about the consequences of Brexit.

A judge summonsed the Conservative MP to appear in court after a member of the public launched a private prosecution over claims EU membership was costing the UK £350m a week.

District Judge Margot Coleman threw out arguments by Mr Johnson's lawyers that the case was a "vexatious" attempt to undermine the result of the 2016 referendum. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/boris-johnson-trial-brexit-court-lying-prosecution-nhs-vote-leave-a8934451.html?fbclid=IwAR0-JewFYHiQpJWu2tw9R-zVmfIR8nkeO2u9yblqYUf0GDgIJQtbXauH5xQ)

Do you even need to ask? Strange times are strange
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 30, 2019, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 29, 2019, 08:40:18 PM
Is this real?


Boris Johnson faces trial for allegedly "lying and misleading the British public" about the consequences of Brexit.

A judge summonsed the Conservative MP to appear in court after a member of the public launched a private prosecution over claims EU membership was costing the UK £350m a week.

District Judge Margot Coleman threw out arguments by Mr Johnson's lawyers that the case was a "vexatious" attempt to undermine the result of the 2016 referendum. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/boris-johnson-trial-brexit-court-lying-prosecution-nhs-vote-leave-a8934451.html?fbclid=IwAR0-JewFYHiQpJWu2tw9R-zVmfIR8nkeO2u9yblqYUf0GDgIJQtbXauH5xQ)

Yes.  Lots of people are upset about the implications.

It will also probably help Boris become Tory leader, because law and order are for peasants.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 03, 2019, 08:27:38 AM
Current bets on next leader? I assume raab/Boris/gove out of running in a few weeks, probably thinning the herd in the process. Horrible feeling loathsome may take it as a second coming of Thatcher that was mentioned in revelations. McVey appears to some as a possibility, but she made the mistake of attacking the gay community instead of them who ain't from round here, you know, them. Amateur mistake. Fyi, bookies have Boris to win, odds on. 2/1 he also withdraws or is otherwise out in week 1. Evens, before round 1 voting. Which is interesting and indicative of overall real chance.

Kind of amazing that anyone wants the poisoned chalice considering the may has been dying for years and has only been able to increase the toxicity.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 03, 2019, 10:39:26 AM
Gove's clearly positioning himself as the moderate choice against Boris.  The thing is, it might work. because despite being a backstabbing shit with deeply weird, neoconservative views on foreign policy and Muslims (who can forget Celsius 7/7, his horrible book on terrorism? Apparently, everyone in the UK), even Gove realises just how horrific a No Deal Brexit would be, and how leaving on good terms with the EU and making gestures of goodwill (taking the EU residency issues off the table, offering an easy path to UK citizenship for current EU residents) would start to make up for the past 3 years of toxic relations.

But Boris clearly has a high level of support among the looney wing of the party, who are increasingly horrified by Farage's success (and seem to assume Farage actually wants to seize power, instead of bitch incessantly from the sidelines) and especially the most recent poll which suggests if the Brexit Party ran in a general election it would wipe the Tories out.  So, the thinking goes, they need their own Farage to outflank him on the right and Boris, a man with no convictions and no shame is the perfect candidate for the job.

I have watched Rory Stewart's campaign with some interest, because even before this I had heard some promising things about his time in charge of Defra. After the disasters that were Caroline Spellman, Owen Paterson and Liz Truss, he brought some brigadier he knew from his Army days in to overhaul matters relating to flood defence and (perhaps more importantly) rebuild trust with the Environment Agency, whose relationship with Parliament was pretty hostile at the time, having been used as the whipping boy for every flood going while protesting cuts to existing defence structures. The brigadier, whose name escapes me, is very highly thought of in those circles and, to a lesser extent, Stewart is respected because he didn't run the agency on a shoestring budget and expect the impossible, and he rearranged budgets to focus more heavily on updating and preserving current structures.  In short, it's very much like his actual leadership campaign, he listens, has a conversation with you and is more or less open to reason and debate. As such, he has absolutely no chance in the race.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 28, 2019, 11:50:41 PM
So, Boris and hunt then. With both still doing their paltry best at trying to sabotage Boris. To depressingly little effect.

Predictions on aftermath? I've heard a lot of panic about coalition governments for years, as though deal making and negotiation in politics is to be frowned on. Enforce your view exclusively or else chaos and terror.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 29, 2019, 12:33:46 AM
I'm hearing that if Boris tries to go full steam ahead on No Deal Brexit, Tory moderates will back a Labour VoNC on him.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on July 02, 2019, 11:00:17 PM
Do the Brexit faithful still believe that the UK can negotiate a better deal? They'll have new people to argue with now after all.

The only brexiteer I know is a guy in work who really really wants to be a subject again instead of a citizen, happily says he made his mind up 40 years ago when his parent were against joining the EEC, even though he lives and works in Ireland.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 03, 2019, 12:02:32 AM
They say they do, but the extent to which that is expediency under which to go for a No Deal Brexit at full steam is hard to say.

Also Johnson was involved in the negotiation of May's agreement, though to much lesser extent than Davis or Raab. But still...not that it matters, as the EU has said it won't renegotiate unless there are significant changes in the UK's position.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 03, 2019, 12:06:23 AM
They are playing musical chairs without any real plan other than saying "give us a better deal or we leave with nothing"

Ireland are likely to trigger the no deal scenario at the End of October.

I haven't posted much in this thread in a while because behind the scenes things have gotten really ugly.

The Irish "side" now feel it is probable that the UK won't commit to the backstop before no deal.

At the moment the Withdrawal agreement is majority vote (though I doubt the EU would vote against Ireland), and the trade deal can be vetoed.
What no one is talking about are the institutions the UK is automatically exiting in No deal.
ISEM for import and export of MW as required.
Euratom for radioisotopes for medicine and some manufacturing,
Open skies for flights
Europol for international arrest warrants and the database
Several agreements around the movement of cattle and food produce and recognition of standards that allow the Sale of said abroad.

Some of the above could technically be joined individually, but all all of the above have something in common, the members objection clause to new applicants.
The expectation is by using the objection and veto to keep a "lockout state" in play the UK will eventually have to return to negotiation and confront the backstop and Northern Ireland.

Ireland is going to suffer out of all this, but Ireland knows economic misery, we've just emerged from ten years of it, but the commitment to the North must come before all else, even if it takes the world economy with it.
There are rumblings from France as well that they wont allow another extension either.

Honestly I have become detached from reality on this, it is a soap opera, and until everyone feels the real world consequences of this none of this fiasco will feel real
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 04, 2019, 11:41:39 AM
Given previous statements from Johnson and the ERG, Ireland is very justified in its worries about the backstop not being upheld.

And that's what the No Dealers don't get. They think we can fail out and trade on the WTO with the EU  (which again, is responsible for half of UK exports and imports) while carrying out trade deals with the rest of the world, after having demonstrated we reneged on a deal with the EU (since Johnson is talking about witholding the £39 billion "divorce settlement" in the event of No Deal). It's madness, pure economic lunacy.

Not to mention the business sector is practically shitting itself at the moment. Between Boris "fuck business" Johnson, Jeremy "I would look a ruined businessman in the eyes and tell him it was worth it" Hunt and Jeremy Corbyn as future PMs, they consider themselves up shit creek sans paddle. And while I don't have a lot of sympathy for the banks, they can afford their moves to Frankfurt and Dublin. It's the small to mid-tier businesses that are going to be absolutely hammered by this.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 09, 2019, 11:52:27 PM
A bill has been passed to allow NI to skip the election it has due (to continue propping up the tories), but the SNP etc highjacked it and added Gay marriage and abortion.
The DUP are likely howling on the moors right now, they can still stop this... By forming a government with Sinn Fein. So they either get the Irish Language act (and have to deal with brexit and the possibility of the backstop being put on them), or these. It's delightful.

NI is like a Bizarro world of the Republic: Over the last three years Ireland has voted in referendum to allow each of the said. NI now gets an election bill with an after thought of gay marriage and abortion forced upon it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 23, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Boris is PM.

Get them in while you can.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 23, 2019, 05:29:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Boris is PM.

Get them in while you can.

You have other countries you can run away to, right?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 23, 2019, 06:07:52 PM
Yay! Can't have america with the sole claim to sociopathic retard in charge. We truly do have a "Special" relationship now :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2019, 08:15:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Boris is PM.

Get them in while you can.

Oh, the shame.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2019, 08:15:16 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 23, 2019, 06:07:52 PM
Yay! Can't have america with the sole claim to sociopathic retard in charge. We truly do have a "Special" relationship now :lulz:

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on July 23, 2019, 08:22:59 PM
Honestly, my schadenfreude with regards to Prime Minister Boris is a full two thirds of why I am taking no recovery time after today's miserable let down.

Nothing gets me going like a reminder that the world is on fire and that in the worst case, I only have to put up with this shit for a few more months before the accelerant doused explosives we have stashed in the backseat catch flame and everyone dies horribly. Good motivator there.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 23, 2019, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 23, 2019, 05:29:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Boris is PM.

Get them in while you can.

You have other countries you can run away to, right?

Only Australia, which is barely an improvement.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2019, 12:00:06 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 23, 2019, 05:29:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Boris is PM.

Get them in while you can.

You have other countries you can run away to, right?

Only Australia, which is barely an improvement.

I wouldn't even say that.  The liberals - whom I gather are the Trump wing of their politics - are more or less running the show. 

If you can't get into New Zealand, have a look at Canada.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2019, 12:00:46 AM
Quote from: nullified on July 23, 2019, 08:22:59 PM
Honestly, my schadenfreude with regards to Prime Minister Boris is a full two thirds of why I am taking no recovery time after today's miserable let down.

Nothing gets me going like a reminder that the world is on fire and that in the worst case, I only have to put up with this shit for a few more months before the accelerant doused explosives we have stashed in the backseat catch flame and everyone dies horribly. Good motivator there.

A joint that fires you for piercings was never going to go well.  Or even tolerably.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 24, 2019, 12:56:12 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2019, 12:00:06 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 23, 2019, 05:29:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Boris is PM.

Get them in while you can.

You have other countries you can run away to, right?

Only Australia, which is barely an improvement.

I wouldn't even say that.  The liberals - whom I gather are the Trump wing of their politics - are more or less running the show. 

If you can't get into New Zealand, have a look at Canada.

Yeah, when John Howard is looking good, you know the Liberals are a shitshow.

New Zealand is actually an option, as an Australian I can freely live and work there without a visa. Canada I would need a work visa I believe, though Commonwealth citizens usually have a slightly easier time in other Commonwealth countries.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on July 24, 2019, 01:50:12 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2019, 12:00:46 AM
Quote from: nullified on July 23, 2019, 08:22:59 PM
Honestly, my schadenfreude with regards to Prime Minister Boris is a full two thirds of why I am taking no recovery time after today's miserable let down.

Nothing gets me going like a reminder that the world is on fire and that in the worst case, I only have to put up with this shit for a few more months before the accelerant doused explosives we have stashed in the backseat catch flame and everyone dies horribly. Good motivator there.

A joint that fires you for piercings was never going to go well.  Or even tolerably.

That's the other third. But mere recognition that I dodged a bullet isn't motivation, it's a sign that I need to chill out.

The impending doom of everything? That's some motivation. If I get lucky, I can be one of the people making little model towns out of the smoldering embers of civilization after the end, and isn't that all anyone really wants?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 24, 2019, 02:14:36 AM
How I see nullified in the post-apocalyptic future we all deserve.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on July 24, 2019, 02:48:01 AM
Excuse you, I'd be dressed much more sensibly than that. That shade of yellow is unfit for survival purposes — you'd look like a canary in a subway station — and I don't know where to begin with the sun exposure, you'd be half baked in an hour in our future wasteland. The Middle East is the height of sensible fashion in the coming decades, my friends.

That mask is a tragedy, I'd go with one of the classics: the Israeli or the Swede. I want full NBC protection and I want it for less money than a used car.

And finally, those guns are both absurdly expensive and hopelessly outclassed, when I can just go all Metro 2033 and gain the sweet benefits of interchangeable parts, rapid assembly, and costing less than a nice tarp.

Really, you just have me all wrong, Mister Wizard. I paid more attention than to believe the cybergoth look will stick. That's just my casual wear while we still have clouds.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 24, 2019, 03:12:44 AM
Quote from: nullified on July 24, 2019, 02:48:01 AM
Excuse you, I'd be dressed much more sensibly than that. That shade of yellow is unfit for survival purposes — you'd look like a canary in a subway station — and I don't know where to begin with the sun exposure, you'd be half baked in an hour in our future wasteland. The Middle East is the height of sensible fashion in the coming decades, my friends.

That mask is a tragedy, I'd go with one of the classics: the Israeli or the Swede. I want full NBC protection and I want it for less money than a used car.

And finally, those guns are both absurdly expensive and hopelessly outclassed, when I can just go all Metro 2033 and gain the sweet benefits of interchangeable parts, rapid assembly, and costing less than a nice tarp.

Really, you just have me all wrong, Mister Wizard. I paid more attention than to believe the cybergoth look will stick. That's just my casual wear while we still have clouds.

:lulz:

I stand corrected. How dare I post a fantasy image while we're talking about a real post apocalyptic scenario! I now Envision you as a very tall jawa with a gas mask and a sensible firearm. I'd go Google diving for an image, but I fear what I might find if I Google Jawa cosplay.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on July 24, 2019, 03:14:45 AM
Yeah, that way lies unwholesome Rule 34. I mean, R34 is never wholesome, but that sector is bound to be particularly vile.

Then again, you can always claim you did it for Science. Who would begrudge a simple wizard some Science?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 24, 2019, 03:16:20 AM
I Googled it... There's a lot more of it than I thought there would be. A lot. Man there's a lot of Jawa cosplay.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 24, 2019, 03:16:52 AM
Also what is Rule 34?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on July 24, 2019, 03:17:33 AM
Rule 34: if it exists, there is porn of it.

Also, we thank you for your sacrifice.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 24, 2019, 03:24:06 AM
Quote from: nullified on July 24, 2019, 03:17:33 AM
Rule 34: if it exists, there is porn of it.

Also, we thank you for your sacrifice.

I got a new profile pic out of it! Sacrifice was totally worth it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2019, 03:40:26 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 24, 2019, 12:56:12 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2019, 12:00:06 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 09:20:17 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 23, 2019, 05:29:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Boris is PM.

Get them in while you can.

You have other countries you can run away to, right?

Only Australia, which is barely an improvement.

I wouldn't even say that.  The liberals - whom I gather are the Trump wing of their politics - are more or less running the show. 

If you can't get into New Zealand, have a look at Canada.

Yeah, when John Howard is looking good, you know the Liberals are a shitshow.

New Zealand is actually an option, as an Australian I can freely live and work there without a visa. Canada I would need a work visa I believe, though Commonwealth citizens usually have a slightly easier time in other Commonwealth countries.

With your education, Canada would fall all over itself to let you in.

But they also have weird conservatives.  New Zealand is the last sane place on the planet.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on July 24, 2019, 03:45:34 AM
New Zealand is very, very sane. It's actually really creepy.

Malta is also implausibly good, but it's implausibly expensive too. NZ is at least survivably priced.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 24, 2019, 08:46:49 AM
I've heard some things about the cost of living and work environment in New Zealand that kinda put me off. It's apparently no worse than London...but London is a shit hole when it comes to expenses. My parents are actually looking at Malta, but that's for when my father finally retires.

Still, University costs are not expensive for Australians...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 24, 2019, 12:50:46 PM
Looks like the Cabinet might be a majority Leave one, if the rumours are true.

Raab to the Foreign Office, Sajid Javid to Chancellor and Priti Patel to Home Office (the horror).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on July 24, 2019, 03:43:16 PM
Wow, I'm sorry. I don't even know how you survive this one.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 24, 2019, 04:21:05 PM
It could be worse, if Raab were Chancellor the chance of a recession would go up massively. He's one of those libertarian types who think you can gut the administrative state and welfare and somehow make more money out of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 24, 2019, 08:36:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 24, 2019, 12:50:46 PM
Looks like the Cabinet might be a majority Leave one, if the rumours are true.

Raab to the Foreign Office, Sajid Javid to Chancellor and Priti Patel to Home Office (the horror).

What's goves deal? "More senior position but no portfolio". Eh?

Raab at foreign could be a huge fuckup with Iran right now. Money on there for first resignation, if it lasts that long. Assuming Patel doesn't fuck up overnight. Nothing for reeee-moog yet. Thought that would have been agreed a while ago.

And truss for trade. That's a laugh. Mordaunt gone after 3 months as defence, despite that being an easy win to keep her in place. Face doesn't fit the role I expect.

Kind of upset expecting "ive pissed away over 3bn on literally nothing" grayling to get something. Just so everyone can point and say they're not as useless as him.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 25, 2019, 07:42:51 AM
They want to keep Gove where they can see him.

Rees-Mogg is now Leader of the Commons. Williamson for education. Amber Rudd at the DWP. Shapps is transport?! And Leadsom for business? Oh deary, deary me....
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 25, 2019, 09:24:51 AM
Well, when you alienate anyone remotely competent, this is the pile of shit you have left to work with.

So, implosion shortly after summer? No point spoiling the planned holidays beforehand.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 25, 2019, 09:58:06 AM
This summer? Almost definitely. There will also probably be at least 3 major scandals unrelated to Brexit by that point, and I'm putting money on Patel and Williamson being two of them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on July 26, 2019, 07:50:57 PM
The shape of things to come:
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-07-26/itv-news-exclusive-jacob-rees-mogg-issues-style-guide-to-staff/

(https://news.images.itv.com/image/file/1934341/stream_img.jpg)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2019, 07:55:40 PM
"Use imperial measurements"  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on July 28, 2019, 08:21:08 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2019, 07:55:40 PM
"Use imperial measurements"  :lulz:

The Empire Strikes Back :(
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2019, 07:48:49 PM
https://www.apnews.com/c49e1d090dda4a90a042b5ec458ade8a

This is all looking really familiar.

QuoteJohnson, contradicting the opinion of most experts, has said leaving without a divorce deal will be "vanishingly inexpensive" if Britain is properly prepared.

He says he will "turbo-charge" plans for a no-deal Brexit — including beefed-up border measures and a multimillion-pound information campaign for individuals and businesses — and has set up a bodies including a high-level Cabinet "exit strategy committee" to oversee preparations.

Less than a hundred days to go.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2019, 08:26:36 PM
He's put one of his chief rivals, Michael Gove, in charge of No Deal prepartions, too.

You can see where this is going, it's all so predictable by this point.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2019, 09:39:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 29, 2019, 08:26:36 PM
He's put one of his chief rivals, Michael Gove, in charge of No Deal prepartions, too.

You can see where this is going, it's all so predictable by this point.

So, tell me this:  If Brexit stalls in the UK and nothing at all is done, does the event still happen in October?  Or is this going to be more like what the EU parliament did to May?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2019, 09:45:40 PM
Unless the EU extends it again, this is the final deadline. And I don't think they will, the EU was willing to give May time to try and convince Parliament of her deal. The current government says it wants to go back to the negotiating table, especially over the backstop, and the EU isn't interested in that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2019, 09:49:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 29, 2019, 09:45:40 PM
Unless the EU extends it again, this is the final deadline. And I don't think they will, the EU was willing to give May time to try and convince Parliament of her deal. The current government says it wants to go back to the negotiating table, especially over the backstop, and the EU isn't interested in that.

This is one of those "And Mexico is going to pay for it moments."  And Johnson seems to believe Trump about "upcoming trade deals," which implies that he is either really cynical, really stupid, or both.

After all the smack Johnson has talked, the EU can't renegotiate.  If I were the EU guy, I'd just be telling my people to prepare to lose Britain.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 29, 2019, 10:10:06 PM
Ireland had to call on the US to make upholding the Good Friday prerequiste to a US trade deal. Both Pelosi and McConnell have said that this is the case.
Then again, there's money involved. And the UK in a no deal state is like a lamb among the wolves, the US could get trade deal entirely on its terms.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2019, 10:37:52 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 29, 2019, 10:10:06 PM
Ireland had to call on the US to make upholding the Good Friday prerequiste to a US trade deal. Both Pelosi and McConnell have said that this is the case.
Then again, there's money involved. And the UK in a no deal state is like a lamb among the wolves, the US could get trade deal entirely on its terms.

Well, yes.  Johnson is a particularly dense man.  He is sly enough to gain power, but not smart enough to manage it.

What is the Good Friday Prerequisite?  I haven't heard that term before, or if I did, I have forgotten it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 29, 2019, 10:43:18 PM
Basically if the Good Friday Agreement is violated by the UK - by imposing a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, as would happen if there is no backstop - then there's no trade deal from Congress.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 29, 2019, 10:47:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 29, 2019, 10:43:18 PM
Basically if the Good Friday Agreement is violated by the UK - by imposing a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, as would happen if there is no backstop - then there's no trade deal from Congress.

Can Northern Ireland just fuck off with the rest of Ireland?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 29, 2019, 10:56:58 PM
Well this is the thing, the UK is acting like a dad in a midlife crises trying to stop taking shared custody with his spiteful ex of their mentally deranged child.
The backstop, in effect, keeps NI in the status quo. It's not even Ireland demanding unification. Unification or a border will immediately lead to one of the two insane groups (UVF-Team Loyalist, IRA - Team Republican) starting shit again.
In keeping that status quo though the UK loses its ability to break NI out of that status quo and that is a reasonable complaint. But then how do you square this circle:
The wording of the Good Friday agreement is the People of Northern Ireland have a right to "Live as British, Irish, Or both". That "or both" is going to create all kinds of complications as people from NI will regardless of any outcome have more rights then other UK citizens  (the right to freely travel or work in any of the 27 EU nations)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 12:55:37 AM
Johnson:  "Hold my beer, Northern Ireland."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-northern-ireland-direct-rule-dominic-raab-boris-johnson-a9024801.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0SOguQ-no8yvuezJolpcM8cuAdSRCQY9a4l4gTrMZRsWXHTTWABVyu6PM#Echobox=1564386597
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2019, 07:26:06 AM
That'd be a swell way to make the Provisional IRA a relevant force again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 07:26:06 AM
That'd be a swell way to make the Provisional IRA a relevant force again.

I was gonna say, the Provos probably just went berserk.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 30, 2019, 03:44:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 07:26:06 AM
That'd be a swell way to make the Provisional IRA a relevant force again.

I was gonna say, the Provos probably just went berserk.
No they are on their best behavior, the UK screwing the pooch, I mean REALLY going to town on it, is accelerating sentiment for a united Ireland.
As of a year ago it was 21% in favour, as it has been for most of the last 30 years ago.
In the event of No deal, its currently 60-40 in favour of a United Ireland, with the biggest switch being Economic Unionists who maintained they were better with the UK for free healthcare etc.
 
I'm hoping that it wont be the IRA who kick off, they can sit back and let the UK gov do the work for them. There will be a statue of Arlene Forrester and Boris in an Irish History museum one day as the people most instrumental to a United Ireland.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 05:07:59 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 30, 2019, 03:44:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 07:26:06 AM
That'd be a swell way to make the Provisional IRA a relevant force again.

I was gonna say, the Provos probably just went berserk.
No they are on their best behavior, the UK screwing the pooch, I mean REALLY going to town on it, is accelerating sentiment for a united Ireland.
As of a year ago it was 21% in favour, as it has been for most of the last 30 years ago.
In the event of No deal, its currently 60-40 in favour of a United Ireland, with the biggest switch being Economic Unionists who maintained they were better with the UK for free healthcare etc.
 
I'm hoping that it wont be the IRA who kick off, they can sit back and let the UK gov do the work for them. There will be a statue of Arlene Forrester and Boris in an Irish History museum one day as the people most instrumental to a United Ireland.

Boris is now saying any Brexit deal must get rid of the Ireland backstop.

https://www.apnews.com/bf93a8560e3f41e28b6f5ef74a92a174
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 30, 2019, 05:29:15 PM
Yep and Ireland will keep the UK in the no deal state until the backstop is in place. So pointless trade blockade in 2019 well done 21st century
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2019, 05:34:26 PM
Well Boris is the one who sent us down this dismal path in the first place, making up all those anti-EU stories in the late 80s, when most of the Tories were vaguely pro-EU still. And then leading the charge during the referendum. It's only fitting he deal with the mess he caused.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on July 30, 2019, 08:33:33 PM
When do you legally get to drag him through the streets with horses then put his head on a stick at the Tower of London? I mean, that's a law, right?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 09:55:32 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 30, 2019, 05:29:15 PM
Yep and Ireland will keep the UK in the no deal state until the backstop is in place. So pointless trade blockade in 2019 well done 21st century

No US deal without it, either.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 09:56:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 05:34:26 PM
Well Boris is the one who sent us down this dismal path in the first place, making up all those anti-EU stories in the late 80s, when most of the Tories were vaguely pro-EU still. And then leading the charge during the referendum. It's only fitting he deal with the mess he caused.

I thought Farage started it.

Either way, Johnson is holding the bag.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2019, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 09:56:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 05:34:26 PM
Well Boris is the one who sent us down this dismal path in the first place, making up all those anti-EU stories in the late 80s, when most of the Tories were vaguely pro-EU still. And then leading the charge during the referendum. It's only fitting he deal with the mess he caused.

I thought Farage started it.

Either way, Johnson is holding the bag.

No, Farage came along in the 1990s. There were elements in the Tory Party who wanted to use the Maastricht Treaty to weaken John Major, so they had their friends outside the party, like Alan Sked and James Goldsmith, fund a bunch of short-lived Eurosceptic parties like the Anti-Federalist League and the Referendum Party, to keep the pressure on. UKIP formed out of the collapse of such parties.

But they wouldn't have existed in the first place without a steady stream of bullshit in the Telegraph about how the EU was going to outlaw bendy bananas and ban Christmas, supplied since the 1980s by the Brussels correspondent, one Boris Johnson.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 31, 2019, 12:14:06 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 09:56:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 05:34:26 PM
Well Boris is the one who sent us down this dismal path in the first place, making up all those anti-EU stories in the late 80s, when most of the Tories were vaguely pro-EU still. And then leading the charge during the referendum. It's only fitting he deal with the mess he caused.

I thought Farage started it.

Either way, Johnson is holding the bag.

No, Farage came along in the 1990s. There were elements in the Tory Party who wanted to use the Maastricht Treaty to weaken John Major, so they had their friends outside the party, like Alan Sked and James Goldsmith, fund a bunch of short-lived Eurosceptic parties like the Anti-Federalist League and the Referendum Party, to keep the pressure on. UKIP formed out of the collapse of such parties.

But they wouldn't have existed in the first place without a steady stream of bullshit in the Telegraph about how the EU was going to outlaw bendy bananas and ban Christmas, supplied since the 1980s by the Brussels correspondent, one Boris Johnson.

I did not know that.  I thought Johnson jumped on Farage's bandwagon, rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 31, 2019, 09:21:03 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 09:55:32 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 30, 2019, 05:29:15 PM
Yep and Ireland will keep the UK in the no deal state until the backstop is in place. So pointless trade blockade in 2019 well done 21st century

No US deal without it, either.
The UK's plan is to lower tariffs to zero post no deal to encourage trade, but Canada (who had previously been ready to sign a trade agreement) have said they will not, why have a trade agreement when they have full access to the UK market for free.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 31, 2019, 09:25:33 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 31, 2019, 12:14:06 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 09:56:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2019, 05:34:26 PM
Well Boris is the one who sent us down this dismal path in the first place, making up all those anti-EU stories in the late 80s, when most of the Tories were vaguely pro-EU still. And then leading the charge during the referendum. It's only fitting he deal with the mess he caused.

I thought Farage started it.

Either way, Johnson is holding the bag.

No, Farage came along in the 1990s. There were elements in the Tory Party who wanted to use the Maastricht Treaty to weaken John Major, so they had their friends outside the party, like Alan Sked and James Goldsmith, fund a bunch of short-lived Eurosceptic parties like the Anti-Federalist League and the Referendum Party, to keep the pressure on. UKIP formed out of the collapse of such parties.

But they wouldn't have existed in the first place without a steady stream of bullshit in the Telegraph about how the EU was going to outlaw bendy bananas and ban Christmas, supplied since the 1980s by the Brussels correspondent, one Boris Johnson.

I did not know that.  I thought Johnson jumped on Farage's bandwagon, rather than the other way around.

Yeah, Johnson's got a lot to answer for.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 31, 2019, 09:26:22 AM
Quote from: Faust on July 31, 2019, 09:21:03 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2019, 09:55:32 PM
Quote from: Faust on July 30, 2019, 05:29:15 PM
Yep and Ireland will keep the UK in the no deal state until the backstop is in place. So pointless trade blockade in 2019 well done 21st century

No US deal without it, either.
The UK's plan is to lower tariffs to zero post no deal to encourage trade, but Canada (who had previously been ready to sign a trade agreement) have said they will not, why have a trade agreement when they have full access to the UK market for free.

For a bunch of people who extol the virtues of the free market, the Tories sure don't understand how markets, or businesses, actually work.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on July 31, 2019, 10:07:31 AM

Are we watching the UK becoming a third-world country, so to speak? Is that even possible?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 31, 2019, 12:06:47 PM
In theory, a limited economic disintegration is very possible. The main thing to remember is that while the agreements may not be there, the infrastructure still is (more or less, funding cuts aside) and this softens the blow, or sets a lower limit on just how bad things can get, without other factors.

Compare the UK now with, say, Beirut or Kabul in the 1970s and you can see how things could very easily get much worse.

More likely, after maybe a decade to generation of economic disruption, the UK will settle into being a Spanish or Italian tier economic power, instead of a French or German tier one.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 31, 2019, 12:07:36 PM
At which point the climate crisis will intensify and we will really need money and the goodwill of our neighbours.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on August 02, 2019, 07:34:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 31, 2019, 12:06:47 PM
In theory, a limited economic disintegration is very possible. The main thing to remember is that while the agreements may not be there, the infrastructure still is (more or less, funding cuts aside) and this softens the blow, or sets a lower limit on just how bad things can get, without other factors.

Compare the UK now with, say, Beirut or Kabul in the 1970s and you can see how things could very easily get much worse.

More likely, after maybe a decade to generation of economic disruption, the UK will settle into being a Spanish or Italian tier economic power, instead of a French or German tier one.

What's the odds on there still being a UK in its present form in a decade? Between the ignorance of Ireland and the willingness to throw scotland out as an acceptable cost, I wouldn't be surprised to see one or the other separate. Or be discarded.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if people suddenly start taking cornish/norfolk/etc. separatists seriously and giving them power over policy. We're certainly less than 2 years away from some hilarious shit from the Freeman-on-the-land crowd. This is a golden time for them. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 02, 2019, 09:54:12 PM
Well that's another question, yes.

Of course, you know the Tories only passively accept those movements when they occur in areas that will never vote for them. A loss of Scotland just means a bigger majority once the SNP has to depart the House of Commons.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 07, 2019, 02:31:21 PM
Well, I've been having fun with this:

hxxps://www.ceoemail.com/uk-mp.php

Direct lines abound. Short pointed, icily polite questions to a select list. By which I mean I've been hitting a dozen a day or so with anything from the serious (how to best short the pound, mogg) to the silly (still taking money from max Moseley?, Tom Watson).

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2019, 04:14:07 PM
https://www.apnews.com/6bf84ccbb93b41c6b2f0716a43614bd4
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 09, 2019, 05:20:48 PM
Not to mention all that lost foreign direct investment.

I wouldn't invest in the UK right now, not with Boris "fuck business" Johnson as PM and a government committed to pants-on-head idiocy in the world of trade.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2019, 06:56:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 09, 2019, 05:20:48 PM
Not to mention all that lost foreign direct investment.

I wouldn't invest in the UK right now, not with Boris "fuck business" Johnson as PM and a government committed to pants-on-head idiocy in the world of trade.

Worst part is, you're going to see a short bump that Boris will crow about.

For example, I just ordered a shit ton of sensors out of Sheffield, but that is to tide me over until I find an available replacement elsewhere.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 09, 2019, 07:07:27 PM
Yeah, exports will do well as the pound weakens and people will mistake that for economic expansion.

Unfortunately, everyone seems to forget that we are an island and need to import things as well.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2019, 07:12:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 09, 2019, 07:07:27 PM
Yeah, exports will do well as the pound weakens and people will mistake that for economic expansion.

Unfortunately, everyone seems to forget that we are an island and need to import things as well.

It's also important to remember that England invented the phrase "it stands to reason" specifically so that politicians could bugger them more easily.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on August 09, 2019, 07:33:33 PM
Watching a major European power burn to the ground on the back of its own ignorance, hatred, and incompetence: It's the most fun you can have outside of doing it yourself.

Seriously though, you and Junkie need to get the fuck out of there, Cain. And any other PDers who will end up caught in the poo tsunami. Brain-in-a-jar style if need be, I hear Stanford is making great strides.

You're all too used to modern amenities like ballistic knives, video games, trains, and aspirin, and the lack will bring out the latent Yeti-strain rabies in you. No one is prepared for that pandemic, or the resultant massacres with improbable weaponry.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 09, 2019, 09:24:23 PM
No, it's fine, the collapse in the value of the pound means holidaying in the UK for UK citizens will be more affordable than ever (https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1159375956949311488).

Because we're not paid in pounds.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2019, 10:26:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 09, 2019, 09:24:23 PM
No, it's fine, the collapse in the value of the pound means holidaying in the UK for UK citizens will be more affordable than ever (https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1159375956949311488).

Because we're not paid in pounds.

That was a great 1400 comments of hilarity.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 10, 2019, 12:35:35 AM
Today the UK grid dropped to 48.8Hz, the normal operating parameters are 50Hz, with an excursion being classified 49.7 and an extreme event being 49.3
I dont think it has ever gone this low, I don't know why they are running more risk (cost saving / to feel needed / reduce carbon / some brexit madness, all of the above?)
A little bit further and the grid breaks into 16 regions, which is very very hard to put back together
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 10, 2019, 01:06:30 AM
The BBC is being quite vague on this

QuoteThe BBC understands that two power supply plants - one a traditional gas and steam-fired power station in Cambridgeshire, the other a huge wind-turbine farm in the North Sea - failed at about 16:00 BST.

National Grid described it as an "unexpected, and unusual event".

An additional factor may have been capacity problems at Britain's largest single power station in Yorkshire.

The sudden drop in available power caused protective measures to kick in that immediately cut electricity supply to a section of the National Grid network.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 10, 2019, 01:19:07 AM
At work we have seen that they are running with less inertia (what stops the frequency moving), you might have seen the story about record period without coal, it was a lot of renewable, which doesnt have much inertia.
We used to see about 12 frequency events a year, since about june it is about 3 a week, we know why it is happening, but not why someone would choose to run that level of risk, especially because the three biggest frequency deviations since 1970... have all been since June.
I imagine it comes down to money somehow, but I don't see how, the next one could be the big one
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 10, 2019, 05:35:35 AM
Quote from: Faust on August 10, 2019, 01:19:07 AM
At work we have seen that they are running with less inertia (what stops the frequency moving), you might have seen the story about record period without coal, it was a lot of renewable, which doesnt have much inertia.
We used to see about 12 frequency events a year, since about june it is about 3 a week, we know why it is happening, but not why someone would choose to run that level of risk, especially because the three biggest frequency deviations since 1970... have all been since June.
I imagine it comes down to money somehow, but I don't see how, the next one could be the big one

Is the system air gapped?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 10, 2019, 10:29:09 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 10, 2019, 05:35:35 AM
Quote from: Faust on August 10, 2019, 01:19:07 AM
At work we have seen that they are running with less inertia (what stops the frequency moving), you might have seen the story about record period without coal, it was a lot of renewable, which doesnt have much inertia.
We used to see about 12 frequency events a year, since about june it is about 3 a week, we know why it is happening, but not why someone would choose to run that level of risk, especially because the three biggest frequency deviations since 1970... have all been since June.
I imagine it comes down to money somehow, but I don't see how, the next one could be the big one

Is the system air gapped?
This was gridwide. If you are thinking stuxnet or something naw, this risk was highlighted to them and they didn't seem to care
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 10, 2019, 10:54:29 AM
I do wonder if it was stress-testing related to a no-deal Brexit (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trading-electricity-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/trading-electricity-if-theres-no-brexit-deal).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 10, 2019, 02:36:58 PM
It could be that, the UK can at times be importing 40% of its power to cover local demand, which is of course governed by the ISEM and ECJ. The no deal prep list for that is worryingly thin. It basically says "We wont have a way of buying or selling power if we are not members of these but were going to pretend we are and hope no one complains" 
Other worrying parts: France owns the interconnect, they talk about "making arrangements with the interconnect owners". If there is no mechanism for them to get paid for the power they provide, what then?
If the UK has to operate without import we could be looking at rolling blackouts every month or so.
Similar issues for NI. NI cant operate outside of the all island market (as its a continuous system as part of the integration allowed through the good friday agreement). The only option is to switch it off.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 10, 2019, 03:25:58 PM
A couple of contacts at national grid describe it as "really fucking weird". The outage shouldn't have hit the areas listed at the same time and the alleged cause of failure described as "bullshit". No one's saying malicious or external actors but it looks like the whole system is held together with glue and hope.

Which does describe my experience of Ng sites.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 12, 2019, 10:36:53 AM
I get the impression that an awful lot of national grids all over the place are badly maintained. I remember reading papers and books from the early 2000s about vulnerabilities in the US grid and supply, which was based on earlier studies going back to the 1980s.

The only reason terrorists aren't attacking them all the time and proving the problems are the same reason they don't do anything else smart, they think everything can be solved by bombs on streets.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 12, 2019, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2019, 10:36:53 AM
I get the impression that an awful lot of national grids all over the place are badly maintained. I remember reading papers and books from the early 2000s about vulnerabilities in the US grid and supply, which was based on earlier studies going back to the 1980s.

The only reason terrorists aren't attacking them all the time and proving the problems are the same reason they don't do anything else smart, they think everything can be solved by bombs on streets.

Our grid is a crying shame.  I would tell you how bad it is, but it would seem like I was being dramatic.

And yes, that isn't attention-whorey enough.  Same reason 911 targeted the WTC instead of the gulf coast refinery complexes.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 12, 2019, 05:02:06 PM
What seems especially worrying is that people want to attribute potential security problems to spooky haxx0r5, instead of 20-50 saboteurs with a basic knowlege of engineering.

People should learn from the IRA. Attention-whoring just gets you deep-sixed by deniable black-ops paramilitaries. Holding a nation hostage via economic warfare gets results. But the Provos were a speical breed, and even then it took them time to learn that truth.l
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 12, 2019, 05:38:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2019, 05:02:06 PM
What seems especially worrying is that people want to attribute potential security problems to spooky haxx0r5, instead of 20-50 saboteurs with a basic knowlege of engineering.

People should learn from the IRA. Attention-whoring just gets you deep-sixed by deniable black-ops paramilitaries. Holding a nation hostage via economic warfare gets results. But the Provos were a speical breed, and even then it took them time to learn that truth.l

One person can take a grid down without hacking a damn thing.  For obvious reasons, I won't post how, but it isn't actually difficult at all.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 13, 2019, 03:06:57 AM
Pm details please.

Not planning any enrony shenanigans. No sir.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 16, 2019, 01:04:56 PM
You'll note I've not been talking about the latest "plans" to prevent No Deal.

Mostly because the Lib Dems are fucking morons who are apparently more afraid of a caretaker Prime Minister Corbyn than they are of No Deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 16, 2019, 05:01:33 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 16, 2019, 01:04:56 PM
You'll note I've not been talking about the latest "plans" to prevent No Deal.

Mostly because the Lib Dems are fucking morons who are apparently more afraid of a caretaker Prime Minister Corbyn than they are of No Deal.

You dudes are fucked.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 16, 2019, 06:20:59 PM
Yup.

Corbyn's plan had issues, but it strikes at the heart of the issue which is we need a new Parliament to agree on and pass some kind of deal since the current one cannot do it. Dissolving Parliament and calling an election resolves that and would be exactly the kind of circumstances under which the EU would grant another extension. An extension would give breathing room for a second referendum.

BUT SOCIALIST MAN BAD. So we won't be doing that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on August 16, 2019, 08:52:18 PM

I wanted to ask something, even though ive been following this thread for a while and am not completely oblivious to its content (and if its covered just say so and ill look for it myself):

Which British actors benefit directly/indirectly economically from this whole disaster?

Now now, what im NOT asking is who benefits politically cause that seems like a net victory for Tories and conservatives, which like all the politicians in the world, will sell the world to advance their own careers and standings, i know that.

Does all of this benefit in general, say, the top 15% of the richest people in the territories? Or does it just benefit a sector of them? Aren't all crises just scenarios where the top eschelons win more?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 16, 2019, 10:20:55 PM
Not many. To an extent exporters and tourism providers benefit from the weak pound, and currency speculators are having a field day.

Equity groups were doing well out of the weaker pound and short-term uncertainty, but as that has turned to medium term uncertainty, they have since reduced their investment.

This leaves one final group, who are not yet benefitting but expect to. Asset-strippers, who will buy up and liquidate distressed companies in any Brexit-caused recession.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on August 16, 2019, 10:58:28 PM

Thanks, I was just trying to see if the whole thing's origins were more political or economical... it's funny, like, usually political moves are motivated by private and personal gains, but in this case its just throwing everything under the bus for mere political gains, interesting, it just highlights how stupid and absurd all of it is.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 17, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
Don't get me wrong, many No Deal Tories have been positioning themselves to either ignore or profit from Brexit (Rees-Mogg moved his company HQ to Ireland, for example). And the asset-strippers in question are large investment firms, who will have current and former Tories on their boards, they're the UK equivalent to companies like Bain Capital.

But the real payoff, other than that, will be the orgy of deregulation, in some cases done by minister fiat instead of by a Parliamentary vote, which will conveniently be blamed on our new trading partners and arrangements. For instance, any trade deal with the US means the UK having to accept US food hygiene standards. These standards fall quite short of the EU, best summed up in how the US drenches its chickens in chlorine during processing to try and remove any contaminants.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 18, 2019, 09:47:51 AM
The full government assessment of no deal got leaked, this isn't an old one either,  it's from Johnson's own cabinet.

Highlights include open admission that there are plans for an NI border,  lack of clean running water and three month delays just to get back to 50% of the goods in and out of the UK.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-deal-brexit-planning-assumptions-the-leaked-operation-yellowhammer-document-797qxkrcm

BASE SCENARIO

When the UK ceases to be a member of the European Union in October 2019, all rights and reciprocal arrangements with the EU end.

● The UK reverts fully to "third country" status. The relationship between the UK and the European Union as a whole is unsympathetic, with many member states (under pressure from the European Commission) unwilling to engage bilaterally and implementing protections unilaterally, though some member states may be more understanding.

● No bilateral deals have been concluded with individual member states, with the exception of the reciprocal agreement on social security co-ordination with the Republic of Ireland. EU citizens living in the UK can retain broadly all rights and status that they were entitled before the UK's exit from the EU, at the point of exit.

● Public and business readiness for no-deal will remain at a low level, and will decrease to lower levels, because the absence of a clear decision on the form of EU Exit (customs union, no deal etc) does not provide a concrete situation for third parties to prepare for. Readiness will be further limited by increasing EU Exit fatigue caused by the second extension of article 50.

● Business readiness will not be uniform – in general large businesses that work across sectors are likely to have better developed counting plans than small and medium-size businesses. Business readiness will be compounded by seasonal effects and factors such as warehouse availability.

● Private sector companies' behaviour will be governed by commercial considerations, unless they are influenced otherwise.

● Her Majesty's government will act in accordance with the rule of law, including by identifying the powers it is using to take specific actions.

● Risks associated with autumn and winter, such as severe weather, flooding and seasonal flu, could exacerbate any effects and stretch the resources of partners and responders.

KEY PLANNING ASSUMPTIONS

Exit day

For the purpose of freight flow and traffic management, as October 31 is a Thursday, Day 1 of Exit is now on a Friday rather than the weekend, which is not to our advantage. Exit Day may coincide with the half-term holiday, which varies across the UK.

Member states

In a small number of instances where the impacts of Brexit would be felt negatively in the EU as well as in the UK, member states may act in a way that could benefit the UK.

Channel ports

France will impose EU mandatory controls on UK goods on Day 1 of No Deal and has built infrastructure and IT systems to manage and process customs declarations and to support a risk-based control regime. On Day 1 of No Deal, 50%-85% of HGVs travelling via the short straits may not be ready for French customs. The lack of trader readiness combined with limited space in French ports to hold "unready" HGVs could reduce the flow rate to 40%-60% of current levels within one day.

The worst disruption to the short Channel crossings might last 3 months before flow rates rise to about 50%-70% (as more traders get prepared), although disruption could continue much longer. In the event of serious disruption, the French might act to ensure some flow through the short Channel crossings.

Disruption to Channel flow would also cause significant queues in Kent and delays to HGVs attempting to use the routes to travel to France. In a reasonable worst-case scenario, HGVs could face a maximum delay of 1½-2½ days before being able to cross the border. HGVs caught up in congestion in the UK will be unable to return to the EU to collect another load and some logistics firms may decide to avoid the route. Analysis to date has suggested a low risk of significant sustained queues at ports outside Kent that have high volumes of EU traffic, but the Border Delivery Group will continue to work directly with stakeholders at those ports to support planning readiness.

Border checks

UK citizens travelling to and from the EU may be subject to increased immigration checks at border posts. This may lead to passenger delays at St Pancras, Cheriton (Channel tunnel) and Dover, where border controls are juxtaposed. Depending on what plans EU member states put in place to cope with these increased immigration checks, it is likely delays will occur for UK arrivals and departures at EU airports and ports. This could cause some disruption on transport services. Travellers may decide to use alternative routes to complete their journey.

Drugs and disease

i) The Border Delivery Group/Department for Transport planning assumption on reduced flow rates describes a pre-mitigation reasonable worst-case flow rate that could be as low as 40% on Day 1 of No Deal via the short straits [main Channel crossings], with significant disruption lasting up to six months. Unmitigated, this will have an impact on the supply of medicines and medical supplies.

Supply chains for medicines and medical products rely heavily on the short straits, which makes them particularly vulnerable to severe delays: three-quarters of medicines come via the short straits. Supply chains are also highly regulated and require transportation that meets strict Good Distribution Practices. This can include limits on transit times and temperature-controlled conditions. While some products can be stockpiled, others cannot because of short shelf lives. It will not be practical to stockpile six months' supplies. The Department for Health and Social Care is developing a multi-layered approach to mitigate these risks.

ii) Any disruption that reduces, delays or stops the supply of medicines for UK veterinary use would reduce our ability to prevent and control disease outbreaks, with potential harm to animal health and welfare, the environment and wider food safety and availability, as well as, in the case of zoonotic diseases, posing a risk to human health. Industry stockpiling will not be able to match the 4-12 weeks' stockpiling that took place in March 2019. Air freight capacity and the special import scheme are not a financially viable way to mitigate risks associated with veterinary medicine availability issues.

Food and water

i) Certain types of fresh food supply will decrease. Critical elements of the food supply chain (such as ingredients, chemicals and packaging) may be in short supply. In combination, these two factors will not cause an overall shortage of food in the UK but will reduce availability and choice and increase the price, which will affect vulnerable groups. The UK growing season will have come to an end, so the agri-food supply chain will be under increased pressure for food retailers. Government will not be able to fully anticipate all effects on the agri-food supply chain. There is a risk that panic buying will disrupt food supplies.

ii) Public water services are likely to remain largely unaffected, thanks to actions now being taken by water companies. The most significant single risk is a failure in the chemicals supply chain. The likelihood of this is considered low, and the impact is likely to be local, affecting only hundreds of thousands of people. Water companies are well prepared for any disruption: they have significant stocks of all critical chemicals, extensive monitoring of their chemicals supply chains (including transport and deliveries) and sharing agreements in place. In the event of a supply chain failure, or the need to respond rapidly to other water supply incidents, urgent action may need to be taken to make sure people continue to have access to clean water.

Law and order

Law enforcement data and information-sharing between the UK and the EU will be disrupted.

Financial services and insurance

Some cross-border UK financial services will be disrupted. A small minority of insurance payments from UK insurers into the EU may be delayed.

Data

The EU will not have made a data decision with regard to the UK before exit. This will disrupt the flow of personal data from the EU, where an alternative legal basis for transfer is not in place. In no-deal, an adequacy assessment could take years.

Fuel

Traffic disruption caused by border delays could affect fuel distribution in the local area, particularly if traffic queues In Kent block the Dartford crossing, which would disrupt fuel supply in London and the southeast. Customer behaviour could lead to shortages in other parts of the country.

Tariffs make UK petrol exports to the EU uncompetitive. Industry had plans to mitigate the impact on refinery margins and profitability, but UK government policy to set petrol import tariffs at 0% inadvertently undermines these plans. This leads to big financial losses and the closure of two refineries (which are converted to import terminals) with about 2,000 direct job losses. Resulting strike action at refineries would lead to disruptions to fuel availability for 1-2 weeks in the regions they directly supply. Government analysis of the impact of no-deal on refineries continues.

Northern Ireland

On Day 1 of No Deal, Her Majesty's government will activate the "no new checks with limited exceptions" model announced on March 13, establishing a legislative framework and essential operations and system on the ground, to avoid an immediate risk of a return to a hard border on the UK side.

The model is likely to prove unsustainable because of economic, legal and biosecurity risks. With the UK becoming a "third [non-EU] country", the automatic application of EU tariffs and regulatory requirements for goods entering Ireland will severely disrupt trade. The expectation is that some businesses will stop trading or relocate to avoid either paying tariffs that will make them uncompetitive or trading illegally; others will continue to trade but will experience higher costs that may be passed on to consumers. The agri-food sector will be hardest hit, given its reliance on complicated cross-border supply chains and the high tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade.

Disruption to key sectors and job losses are likely to result in protests and direct action with road blockades. Price and other differentials are likely to lead to the growth of the illegitimate economy. This will be particularly severe in border communities where criminal and dissident groups already operate with greater freedom. Given the tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade, there will be pressure to agree new arrangements to supersede the Day 1 model within days or weeks.

Energy supplies

Demand for energy will be met, and there will be no disruption to electricity or gas interconnectors. In Northern Ireland there will not be immediate disruption to electricity supply on Day 1. A rapid split of SEM could occur months or years after the EU Exit. In this event there would not be issues about security of supply. However, there will probably be marked price rises for electricity customers (business and domestic), with associated wider economic and political effects. Some participants could exit the market, exacerbating economic and political effects.

Gibraltar

Because of the imposition of checks at its border with Spain (and the knock-on effect of delays from the UK to the EU), Gibraltar will see disruption to the supply of goods (including food and medicines) and to shipments of waste, plus delays of four-plus hours for at least a few months in the movement of frontier workers, residents and tourists across the border.

Prolonged border delays over the longer term are likely to harm Gibraltar's economy. As on the UK mainland, cross-border services and data flow will be disrupted. Despite the time extension to the UK's exit from the EU, Gibraltar has still not taken the decisions to invest in contingency infrastructure (such as port adjustments and waste management equipment) and there are still concerns that Gibraltar will not have passed all necessary legislation for no-deal, opening up legal risks mainly for the government of Gibraltar. Gibraltar continues to plan for less significant border delays than in our Yellowhammer scenario. Crown dependencies may be affected by supply chain disruption.

Brits in Europe

i) UK nationals will lose their EU citizenship and can expect to lose associated rights and access to services over time, or be required to access them on a different basis. All member states have now published legislative proposals, but not all have passed legislation to secure all rights for UK nationals.

There is a mixed picture across member states in terms of the level of generosity and detail in the legislation. In some member states, UK nationals need to take action now. Complex administrative procedures within member states, language barriers and uncertainty regarding the UK political situation are contributing to some UK nationals being slow to take action. Demands for help on Her Majesty's government will increase significantly, including an increase in consular inquiries and more complex and time-consuming consular assistance cases for vulnerable UK nationals.

Cross-government support, including continued close engagement and clear communications from UK government departments and the departmental agencies, will be needed to help manage the demand.

ii) An EU member state would continue to pay a pension it currently pays to a UK national living in the EU.

iii) The commission and individual member states do not agree to extend the current healthcare arrangements for UK state pensioners and tourists beyond October 31, 2019, and refuse offers by the UK to fund treatments. Member states take no further action to guarantee healthcare for UK nationals and treat them in the same way as the other "third country" nationals. UK pensioners, workers, travellers and students will need to access healthcare in different ways, depending on the country. Healthcare systems may require people to demonstrate residency and current or previous employment, to enter a social insurance scheme or to purchase private insurance. Member states should treat people with urgent needs but may require them to pay after the fact. There is a risk of disruption for patients, and a minority could face substantial costs.

Protests and police

Protests and counter-protests will take place across the UK, using up police resources. There may also be a rise in public disorder and community tensions.

Fishing

Up to 282 EU and European Economic Area nations' fishing vessels could enter illegally or are already fishing in UK waters: up to 129 vessels in English waters, 100 in Scottish waters, 40 in Welsh waters and 13 in Northern Irish waters on Day 1. This is likely to cause anger and frustration in the UK catching sector, which could lead to clashes between fishing vessels and an increase in non-compliance in the domestic fleet.

Competing demands on UK government and maritime departmental agencies and their assets could put enforcement and response capabilities at risk, especially in the event of illegal fishing, border violations (smuggling and illegal migration) and any disorder or criminality arising as a result, eg violent disputes or blockading of ports.

The poor

Low-income groups will be disproportionately affected by rises in the price of food and fuel.

Social care

There is an assumption that there will be no big changes in adult social care on the day after EU Exit. The adult social care market is already fragile because of the declining financial viability of providers.

An increase in inflation after the UK's EU exit would affect providers of adult social care through increasing staff and supply costs, and might lead to failure within 2-3 months for smaller providers and 4-6 months for larger ones. There are also local risks — transport or staff disruption, severe winter weather or flu — that could exacerbate existing market fragility and that cumulatively could stretch the resources of providers and local authorities.

Intelligence will continue to be gathered to prepare for any effects on the sector, including closure of services and handing-back of contracts that are not part of the normal market function. In addition, by mid-August we will look at the status of preparations in four local authorities identified as concerns
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2019, 10:16:05 AM
"The People knew they were voting for a lack of clean running water when they voted for Brexit"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2019, 10:46:29 AM
Of course, this is outlined as the "base scenario", too.

I have heard rumours of more damaging worst-case scenario reports that were cut from the final documentation. One considered the possibility of a military coup in the face of long-term disruption or significant civil unrest. The worst considered the possibility of outright civil strife requiring a foreign intervention.

bUt LeAvErS kNeW wHaT tHeY wErE vOtInG fOr
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 18, 2019, 04:46:25 PM
This is a nightmare.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on August 18, 2019, 05:06:54 PM
Quote
Protests and police

Protests and counter-protests will take place across the UK, using up police resources. There may also be a rise in public disorder and community tensions...

...The poor

Low-income groups will be disproportionately affected by rises in the price of food and fuel.
This is two of the shortest, least technical entries but they may be the most significant.
Sounds like a good recipe for rioting in the streets. I wonder if it's going to get to the point of imposing martial law.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 18, 2019, 05:35:34 PM
Martial law is automatically applied with curfews from November 1st as there are problems expected. Within the first week (even before there is a shortage of food) people are expected to panic  buy and empty the shelves. Nothing makes people riot faster than a few days of empty shelves.

The most frustrating part of this for me now is: What is the fucking point? What wonderful prize is there waiting that makes this worth it? What is the up side?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2019, 08:25:07 PM
The UK just confirmed it is ending freedom of movement for EU citizens.

So say we have an Irish nurse, working in the NHS. She goes home on holiday, between October 30th and November 1st. She may not be allowed back in on November 1st.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 18, 2019, 08:33:35 PM
Quote from: Faust on August 18, 2019, 05:35:34 PM
Martial law is automatically applied with curfews from November 1st as there are problems expected. Within the first week (even before there is a shortage of food) people are expected to panic  buy and empty the shelves. Nothing makes people riot faster than a few days of empty shelves.

The most frustrating part of this for me now is: What is the fucking point? What wonderful prize is there waiting that makes this worth it? What is the up side?

Having serfs again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2019, 10:19:11 PM
Reminds me, I need to renew my Australian passport. Worst comes to worst, I will leave.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on August 18, 2019, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2019, 10:19:11 PM
Reminds me, I need to renew my Australian passport. Worst comes to worst, I will leave.

Just don't forget us little people :(
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2019, 03:16:22 AM
Quote from: MMIX on August 18, 2019, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2019, 10:19:11 PM
Reminds me, I need to renew my Australian passport. Worst comes to worst, I will leave.

Just don't forget us little people :(

Both of you can come to Tucson and live forever.   :)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on August 19, 2019, 03:29:32 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2019, 03:16:22 AM
Quote from: MMIX on August 18, 2019, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2019, 10:19:11 PM
Reminds me, I need to renew my Australian passport. Worst comes to worst, I will leave.

Just don't forget us little people :(

Both of you can come to Tucson and live forever.   :)

You know the saying, "no rest for the wicked?"

Tucson says "all of ye are sinners and none shall be saved."* I didn't even visit when traveling through Arizona and now I get shitty texts about needing to come back from a little piece of my soul that Tucson's gravity well pulled clean off of the rest of me.



* - I feel like 70% sure I stole that bit from somewhere but my memory refuses to say where from. As such, I refuse to feel bad about it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 19, 2019, 01:59:28 PM
Quote from: MMIX on August 18, 2019, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 18, 2019, 10:19:11 PM
Reminds me, I need to renew my Australian passport. Worst comes to worst, I will leave.

Just don't forget us little people :(

Flee to Ireland now!

Seriously, Australia or New Zealand are not exactly my top choices. But it's a "no questions asked" situation, so...

(first choice would be hiding in a mountain cabin in Switzerland, but I'm not rich enough for that)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 19, 2019, 02:00:52 PM
Speaking of not being rich, the Tories announced today that they want to raise the retirement age until 75.

Because it's not enough to screw over my generation on tuition fees and affordable housing, now it's on pensions too.

Not that I ever expected to retire, anyway. I'd like to, I just knew bastards like the Tories would make it impossible.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2019, 07:37:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2019, 02:00:52 PM
Speaking of not being rich, the Tories announced today that they want to raise the retirement age until 75.

Because it's not enough to screw over my generation on tuition fees and affordable housing, now it's on pensions too.

Not that I ever expected to retire, anyway. I'd like to, I just knew bastards like the Tories would make it impossible.

I am guessing that half the country said "stands to reason" and never once considered how it will fuck them personally.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 19, 2019, 07:40:29 PM
Well you have to remember that if you're 55 years old and a Tory voter, you're in the youth wing of the party.

Everyone else who votes for the Tories tends to be 60+ and already retired. It's the same people who voted for Brexit: they already got theirs, fuck everyone else.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2019, 08:39:47 PM
And then it turns out shit like Brexit and bizarre trade wars have consequences.

https://www.apnews.com/7eeaa0b5fde44b98a4f8dc896da295a3
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 19, 2019, 08:52:04 PM
Nah, this is good news for Brexit. This means we're winning and the Germans are losing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2019, 09:36:50 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2019, 08:52:04 PM
Nah, this is good news for Brexit. This means we're winning and the Germans are losing.

We are knocking holes in their end of the lifeboat faster.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 20, 2019, 05:33:30 PM
https://www.apnews.com/2b2718469c864f43bf5ffe3cf4485f2f

The UK is now not attending EU functions or meetings that do not directly center on UK security.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 20, 2019, 05:36:55 PM
Also, this:

"9:30 a.m.

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has demanded that the European Union reopen Brexit negotiations, scrapping "anti-democratic" provisions for the Irish border that he says would threaten the peace process in Northern Ireland.

Johnson, who has made similar statements in the past, formally delivered his demands to the EU late Monday in a letter to Donald Tusk, president of the European Council.

Johnson is calling for an end to the so-called backstop, which would keep Britain closely aligned with the European customs union if the two sides can't agree on other ways to prevent the reintroduction of border checks on people and goods moving between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, after a one-hour call with Johnson on Monday, said the Brexit deal wouldn't be renegotiated."

https://apnews.com/cc4cfbfdbe51433bb0c8c38ac1cdf03a

So much for Ireland.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on August 20, 2019, 05:44:25 PM
How many UK and Irish spags can we fit in one really big suitcase?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 20, 2019, 07:39:51 PM
Meanwhile, the government is refusing to release the updated No Deal preparations, in the wake of the Yellowhammer documents being leaked.

The Tories have refused on the grounds that people would "misunderstand".

So, the People knew what they were voting for, but would misunderstand its implementation, that's the official government line.

Corbyn is calling for the release of the current No Deal projections and planning.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 20, 2019, 08:56:41 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 20, 2019, 05:36:55 PM

So much for Ireland.

It is the first written mention of the UK needing a border, and completely invalidates the "just trust us, we wont put up a border" argument.

Ravings and zealotry follow:
Ireland's no deal preparation is being kept a bit quieter and there are a couple of reasons for that, it has some advantages through continuing membership of the EU here:
The first is that over the last 3 years Ireland hasn't sat on its hands. In 2016 (before the brexit vote) the UK accounted for a whopping 45% of all Irish exports.
As of the Q2 reports this year it is down to 9 percent, the majority of which is food, which would be insane for the UK to disrupt.
The second is that Ireland has been moving all goods transport from using trucks via Dublin port -> drive across UK > dover to direct chartered ships.
This is where things get ugly and why it is being downplayed. November 1st the UK is going to be competing with Ireland to charter cargo ships, European Cargo ships which Ireland is already putting in the contracts on. These can use every European port, not just the WTO enabled customs ports that will be log jammed by UK trucks.
Yes, the shitty implication in that is we will be competing for ships that would otherwise mitigate food shortages in the UK.

There is no way to mitigate no deal completely, but Ireland is in a good place, that said, we are looking at another multiyear recession. Rebuilding will be possible through the EU, the UK, through gravity of trade wont recover until it has made a deal with the EU. Which will take as long as it takes to uphold that commitment to NI.
 
The hope is that if no deal is as bad as expected the UK will reconsider the backstop as the cheaper, less awful option and if it is completely unpalatable because of the shared sovereignty of the region, a full border poll (Then the DUP and the UVF become Irelands problem, but thats a story for another day).

This probably seems extreme, but we will bring the world financial markets to the brink of collapse (NI can be everyone's problem) and allow No deal to happen as there is no better demonstration of how important an issue the commitment to the people of NI is. But you have to look at the request, is it extreme to ask to keep the status quo, to use the backstop to continue to enjoy the peace brought about by the good Friday agreement. In November, please still have what is there today
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 21, 2019, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: Faust on August 20, 2019, 08:56:41 PM

As of the Q2 reports this year it is down to 9 percent, the majority of which is food, which would be insane for the UK to disrupt.


I don't mean to be a smartass here, but what on Earth makes you think that will stop them?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on August 21, 2019, 01:18:21 AM
I don't think it's smartassery to point out that they seem committed to destroying their public support, economy, and international standing for the sake of doing it alone. Just because it would be ridiculous for them to do it says nothing about whether or not they will, which is honestly a terrifying place to be in.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 21, 2019, 01:38:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 21, 2019, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: Faust on August 20, 2019, 08:56:41 PM

As of the Q2 reports this year it is down to 9 percent, the majority of which is food, which would be insane for the UK to disrupt.


I don't mean to be a smartass here, but what on Earth makes you think that will stop them?
Unless there are plans of embargo on Irish goods, which to date there hasn't been (there was that UKIP "don't buy Irish butter" phase but it didn't happen, sales stayed the same).
A couple of reasons:
Ireland provides 60 percent of Europe's pharmaceuticals, including to the UK, Pfizer, GSK etc are all here.
Secondly the UK will need to mitigate food shortages and Ireland is the country that delivers to the western ports, Welsh ports not as hot as Dover and Calais logjam.
Thirdly most goods from NI have to go through Irish ports and have always done, Belfast is too small to handle the volume, unless the UK does implement the sea border, those ships will be unimpeded
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 21, 2019, 02:45:25 PM
Quote from: Faust on August 21, 2019, 01:38:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 21, 2019, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: Faust on August 20, 2019, 08:56:41 PM

As of the Q2 reports this year it is down to 9 percent, the majority of which is food, which would be insane for the UK to disrupt.


I don't mean to be a smartass here, but what on Earth makes you think that will stop them?
Unless there are plans of embargo on Irish goods, which to date there hasn't been (there was that UKIP "don't buy Irish butter" phase but it didn't happen, sales stayed the same).
A couple of reasons:
Ireland provides 60 percent of Europe's pharmaceuticals, including to the UK, Pfizer, GSK etc are all here.
Secondly the UK will need to mitigate food shortages and Ireland is the country that delivers to the western ports, Welsh ports not as hot as Dover and Calais logjam.
Thirdly most goods from NI have to go through Irish ports and have always done, Belfast is too small to handle the volume, unless the UK does implement the sea border, those ships will be unimpeded

Again, I am unsure the Brexiters care.  "Starvin' muh family to own the libs!"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on August 21, 2019, 03:17:39 PM
The latest plan is for Ireland to leave  the eu common market like a good little province.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 21, 2019, 03:18:51 PM
Quote from: Magpie on August 21, 2019, 03:17:39 PM
The latest plan is for Ireland to leave  the eu common market like a good little province.

So slam the remaining conduit for food and medicine shut.

WELL DONE, THAT MAN.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 21, 2019, 03:59:45 PM
It was more than that, it was basically saying would Ireland instead join the Union.
Our governments response was that it was "Worrying".
This is officially now a deadbeat husband who beat his wife for the last 800 years, who still wants joint custody of the kids with none of the responsibility.

The fucking neck of that blond moron to suggest Ireland cede it's sovereignty for its disastrous pet project which was supposedly about it regaining its sovereignty.
I guess you are not much of a soverign if you dont have a little nation to bully around.
I think I am all brexited out for the day. I think I will stop reading about this until october 31st, same as his request for further negotiations, bounce an out of office at him
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on August 21, 2019, 04:12:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 21, 2019, 03:18:51 PM
Quote from: Magpie on August 21, 2019, 03:17:39 PM
The latest plan is for Ireland to leave  the eu common market like a good little province.

So slam the remaining conduit for food and medicine shut.

WELL DONE, THAT MAN.   :lulz:

He knows his audience.

Faust's comment about bullying a smaller  nation is applies to a lot of the brexit posturing. The idea that Ireland are focussed on the backstop out of petty intransigence to spoil their glory because we're a former colony. That might have been true in the past, but Ireland  grew up, the current UK government represents the section of British society that didn't, that still dreams of empire.

Technically  Sinn Fein could still take up their seats in Westminster, which would break the Tories and DUPs working majority. It won't happen, it just shows how small the gov majority is.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 22, 2019, 12:51:43 PM
The UK press has deluded itself into thinking Merkel said something she didn't, possibly as a result of not speaking German, being illiterate when it comes to English translations of German, lead poisoning or whatever.

The press now believes Boris Johnson has been granted a 30-day reprieve to come up with a technical solution to the back-stop.

Here's the thing: the back-stop was always a fallback in case a better, viable solution was not presented. We do not have a better, viable solution and according to the Home Office we will not have the technology for one for another decade at least.

But the press decided to run with the willful misinterpretation of a known liar...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 23, 2019, 08:07:06 PM
Boris's nuts, meet hibachi.  Hibachi, meet Boris's nuts.

https://www.apnews.com/85e58dd700724ec5ab1e7e57ced34557
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 23, 2019, 09:22:34 PM
While I no doubt believe his debut on the world stage will be a complete failure that will be talked about for the ages, the only thing more inept than Boris at this point is the state of the British opposition, most of whom would rather have a No Deal Brexit than have a "sCaRy sOcIaLiSt" as a caretaker PM.

Both the rebel Tories and Lib Dems have snubbed the idea of working with Corbyn, but without Corbyn in charge, Labour rebels in favour of Brexit can scupper their majority without having to leave the party. With Corbyn in charge, Labour rules apply to the rebels and they risk forfeiting their seats.

The only party that seems halfway serious is the SNP, who have said they have no problem working with Corbyn or Labour generally to prevent a No Deal Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 23, 2019, 09:39:30 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 23, 2019, 09:22:34 PM
While I no doubt believe his debut on the world stage will be a complete failure that will be talked about for the ages, the only thing more inept than Boris at this point is the state of the British opposition, most of whom would rather have a No Deal Brexit than have a "sCaRy sOcIaLiSt" as a caretaker PM.

I saw that. 

What the fuck is wrong with people?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 24, 2019, 11:27:25 AM
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

And Milton would know.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on August 27, 2019, 07:49:09 PM
Hey Cain, looking at today's shit, ( corbyn, the 116 mp's letter, javid cancelling, etc.) What are you saying to the current odds of crashing out then rejoining under(perceived) shitty terms? Like, say, UK uses the Euro now(That would be insisted on,no way you get the special preference on currency treatment twice), reduced/limited powers representation, loss of vetoes etc.

Just thinking that after a lot of these fucks have made money ruining the price of the pound, I'm betting shift profit to third currency (say $) to then fuck with the price of the euro rising on the re-admittance of the UK.


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 27, 2019, 10:26:42 PM
That'd be the smart long play.

However, it would be quite long-term for our current masters of the Universe, who frequently find the 24 hour news cycle too restricting for their needs.  I think it'll probably happen, and there is no way we would ever get back the special terms we previously operated under. But I also think that returning to the EU would take a number of years, perhaps even upwards of a decade, and while a favourable-ish free trade agreement could likely be agreed upon in the interim, I think the EU would want to see serious, structural guarantees that the UK isn't going to drop out 5 years later again.

I'm not sure our short-term thinkers could actually plan to think that far ahead.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 28, 2019, 09:44:14 AM
1) The Queen has now been dragged into this. She is now in a position where if she accepts the request she is taking a political position and if she rejects the request she is taking a political position, something she has avoided for most of a century.
This failure of government almost makes rule by monarchy look good.

2) Nothing has changed. The clock is ticking. Even if every EU state turned on Ireland now (which it wont), and say changed the withdrawal agreement to remove the backstop. All Ireland needs to do is fail to ratify it by November first.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 28, 2019, 02:04:21 PM
Quote from: Faust on August 28, 2019, 09:44:14 AM
1) The Queen has now been dragged into this. She is now in a position where if she accepts the request she is taking a political position and if she rejects the request she is taking a political position, something she has avoided for most of a century.
This failure of government almost makes rule by monarchy look good.

2) Nothing has changed. The clock is ticking. Even if every EU state turned on Ireland now (which it wont), and say changed the withdrawal agreement to remove the backstop. All Ireland needs to do is fail to ratify it by November first.

https://www.apnews.com/8f2e6dc2d920423ba19c929076328784

And then Boris.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 28, 2019, 02:22:37 PM
That's where the queen comes in, she now has to ratify or reject prorogation, as in comply as complicit in his plan, or "betray brexit".
Firstly, monarchy should not exist, but if it does, it should be ceremonial, secondly, if the monarchy happens to be a 96 year old woman, dont force her into a position where 50% of the population will hate her guts when she has specifically asked to be kept out of this mess.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 02:39:46 PM
It's all been building to this point.

I don't know if the Queen actually has any constitutional basis to refuse Johnson's request, which could lead to the amusing spectacle of the Tory party attempting to oust the monarchy if she does not play along.

But for that he would need Parliament, so...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 28, 2019, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2019, 02:39:46 PM
It's all been building to this point.

I don't know if the Queen actually has any constitutional basis to refuse Johnson's request, which could lead to the amusing spectacle of the Tory party attempting to oust the monarchy if she does not play along.

But for that he would need Parliament, so...

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 02:52:18 PM
Via the BBC

QuoteBBC royal correspondent Jonny Dymond said it was established precedent to prorogue Parliament before a Queen's Speech, albeit generally more briefly, and rarely, if ever, at such a constitutionally charged time.

He said it was "Her Majesty's Government" in name only and it was her role to take the advice of her ministers, so she would prorogue Parliament if asked to.

That was what I thought, but it has been a long time since I did Parliamentary procedure 101.

In which case, we are just waiting for a statement from the Queen that it is happening.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 03:04:33 PM
And it's just been announced

https://twitter.com/BBCVickiYoung/status/1166711208700981249
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 28, 2019, 03:06:59 PM
Makes sense I suppose. I dont think there is a way for the opposition to block no deal now if that's the choice, beyond having a sit in and trying to force the reopening of business.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 03:12:58 PM
The legal challenge is the only hope.

That or rioting and breaking shit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 03:23:01 PM
Or a VONC before Parliament closes down. But it needs to happen, right now, and I dont think that Tory rebels and Lib Dems will side with Labour in sufficient numbers.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 28, 2019, 04:00:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2019, 03:23:01 PM
Or a VONC before Parliament closes down. But it needs to happen, right now, and I dont think that Tory rebels and Lib Dems will side with Labour in sufficient numbers.

The lib dems somehow went from "the only people making sense" to "Jill Stein" while I was napping.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 04:04:51 PM
Well, there has been a change in leadership recently.

But more broadly, the Lib Dems are infamous for this kind of thing. There is a level of ambiguity in Corbyn's Brexit stance, so they seized upon that to hammer him as much as possible, with the hope of breaking off Labour remainers and the remain voting public in making them the opposition, if not in government itself.

But to that end they see Labour as a bigger obstacle and threat than Brexit.

It all makes sense once you assume obtaining power is their primary concern and Brexit is a secondary one.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 28, 2019, 04:29:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2019, 04:04:51 PM
Well, there has been a change in leadership recently.

But more broadly, the Lib Dems are infamous for this kind of thing. There is a level of ambiguity in Corbyn's Brexit stance, so they seized upon that to hammer him as much as possible, with the hope of breaking off Labour remainers and the remain voting public in making them the opposition, if not in government itself.

But to that end they see Labour as a bigger obstacle and threat than Brexit.

It all makes sense once you assume obtaining power is their primary concern and Brexit is a secondary one.

So British Bernie Sanders.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 05:14:37 PM
Yup, more or less. Except of course the Lib Dems are also more rightwing than Labour (more like, say centrist Democrats with closer to progressive rhetoric).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 06:55:17 PM
Just emailed my MP to support an immediate (ie; next week, as soon as the Parliamentary summer recess is over but before the suspension kicks in) vote of no confidence in the PM.

I doubt it will matter much, my MP is Dianne Abbott and she is a Labour loyalist, so she likely supported this approach anyway. But a bit of additional support may not hurt.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 28, 2019, 07:29:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2019, 06:55:17 PM
Just emailed my MP to support an immediate (ie; next week, as soon as the Parliamentary summer recess is over but before the suspension kicks in) vote of no confidence in the PM.

I doubt it will matter much, my MP is Dianne Abbott and she is a Labour loyalist, so she likely supported this approach anyway. But a bit of additional support may not hurt.

Can Boris ignore a VONC?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on August 28, 2019, 07:30:52 PM
I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just saying that you guys do have a history of fine, quality makeshift firearms and explosives between the whole Ireland thing and the Luty 9mm.

I have faith in you.

But also get the absolute fuck out of there please.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 08:17:10 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 28, 2019, 07:29:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2019, 06:55:17 PM
Just emailed my MP to support an immediate (ie; next week, as soon as the Parliamentary summer recess is over but before the suspension kicks in) vote of no confidence in the PM.

I doubt it will matter much, my MP is Dianne Abbott and she is a Labour loyalist, so she likely supported this approach anyway. But a bit of additional support may not hurt.

Can Boris ignore a VONC?

Strictly speaking, yes. It would however be such a breach of government practice that Parliament would be able to dissolve itself to call for a General Election in response, under the Fixed Terms Act. The PM also quite likely might end up being arrested by the Serjeant-at-Arms, as the Speaker can issue a warrant for them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 28, 2019, 08:19:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2019, 08:17:10 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 28, 2019, 07:29:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 28, 2019, 06:55:17 PM
Just emailed my MP to support an immediate (ie; next week, as soon as the Parliamentary summer recess is over but before the suspension kicks in) vote of no confidence in the PM.

I doubt it will matter much, my MP is Dianne Abbott and she is a Labour loyalist, so she likely supported this approach anyway. But a bit of additional support may not hurt.

Can Boris ignore a VONC?

Strictly speaking, yes. It would however be such a breach of government practice that Parliament would be able to dissolve itself to call for a General Election in response, under the Fixed Terms Act. The PM also quite likely might end up being arrested by the Serjeant-at-Arms, as the Speaker can issue a warrant for them.

That would be the awesomest thing ever.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 08:27:13 PM
Especially since the Serjeant is a Muslim, and we all know what Boris thinks of those people:

QuoteHe said he felt "fully entitled" to expect women to remove face coverings when talking to him at his MP surgery - and schools and universities should be able to take the same approach if a student "turns up... looking like a bank robber".

"If you tell me that the burka is oppressive, then I am with you," he said.

"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their faces, then I totally agree - and I would add that I can find no scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran.

"I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."

He said businesses and government agencies should be able to "enforce a dress code" that allowed them to see customers' faces.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on August 28, 2019, 09:22:01 PM
I'm hoping this happens. Let's have Boris go down in such a flaming heap of rubble that everyone recognizes the import, shall we?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 28, 2019, 09:34:23 PM
Apparently over 50% of Tory party members and leave voters disagree with suspending Parliament.

But that may just be because the rightwing rags haven't had a chance to tell them all how awesome this is yet.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 29, 2019, 12:12:49 AM
Headlines on the express and mail helping that out tomorrow.

By Friday it'll be what everyone wanted all along.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 29, 2019, 12:27:43 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDFrbE1XUAMynvC?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 29, 2019, 12:49:41 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 29, 2019, 12:27:43 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDFrbE1XUAMynvC?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

You're going to have to give this one the Charles the First treatment.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on August 29, 2019, 03:04:31 AM
Isn't he more worthy of an Oliver Cromwell? Head on a pike as a warning to the others, you know.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on August 29, 2019, 09:34:59 AM
Quote from: nullified on August 29, 2019, 03:04:31 AM
Isn't he more worthy of an Oliver Cromwell? Head on a pike as a warning to the others, you know.

Nah, Cromwell was already dead when they did that to him; the king was very much alive.

Hence this example on the crucial significance of commas famous to generations of british kiddies:-
King Charles  I walked and talked half an hour after his head was cut off vs
King Charles  I walked and talked, half an hour after his head was cut off

ed- sod it, bloody machine nicked my comma
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 29, 2019, 10:48:45 AM
It's been fun spamming Cabinet members with their own quotes (from a whole two months ago) about how terrible suspending Parliament would be and asking them when they intend to resign.

I think my Twitter alt is getting banned.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 30, 2019, 10:29:51 AM
Hahahaha

I'm not saying it was just me (the link has been spread so far and wide over social media at this point my granny probably would have dragged him over it, and she didn't know how email worked), but @TeamSaj deleted their quote from Sajid Javid during the leadership debates about how "you don't deliver on democracy by trashing democracy" in reference to suspending Parliament.

Along with EVERYONE ELSE IN THE CABINET who spoke out against it, the Saj continues to serve in the Cabinet, with no comment on the current situation and seemingly no plans to resign.

Fucking cowards, the lot of them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 30, 2019, 07:10:33 PM
Did you expect any better? Half the cabinet is former pm candidates just waiting for their turn. It's too early to dissent now. More damage done and more pr if you bail out later. Or say, when promised funds don't appear when promised for your department. When you promise everyone everything, no-one gets anything.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 30, 2019, 08:57:23 PM
Well given Theresa May couldn't blow her nose without a Cabinet member resigning, I am slightly surprised.

Knifing Boris in the back is also a good way to secure one's place in the history books.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 30, 2019, 09:27:01 PM
Javid is having aides and advisors sacked without his knowledge. So I'd guess it's between him and gove.

Davidson jumped straight away and there's been no rush to join her. Or even much comment on the departure which essentially kills the Tories in Scotland. For what that's worth. Hardly a stronghold and looking increasingly like a future cost of Brexit.

They're both probably praying for labour et all to actually do something, anything, that will let them take themselves off the hook.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 31, 2019, 02:38:26 PM
Ignore that bit about javid, he's apparently super special extra best friends with Johnson and is in no way being given the mushroom treatment.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 31, 2019, 02:57:34 PM
 :lulz:

Those flaming rows are perfectly normal between besties
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 31, 2019, 06:52:41 PM
For such an excellent businessman, you would have thought he would understand the implications to the actions a bit better.

I.e look for another job sharpish mate, it isn't going to get better for you.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2019, 09:17:49 AM
Any Tory party member who votes for an extension to our leaving the EU will now be deselected, according to the CCHQ.

For our American friends, that means they will no longer be able to stand as an MP for the Tory party.

Meanwhile, London protests are in the tens of thousands and people are marching on Buckingham Palace.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2019, 01:43:29 PM
Well, that's not at all a dangerous proposition.

Gove has refused to rule out that, if Parliament passes a law preventing No Deal, that the government could just ignore the law (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/01/brexit-gove-refuses-rule-out-ignoring-law-passed-stop-no-deal-) in question.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Juana on September 02, 2019, 02:27:31 AM
That's definitely going to work out, isn't it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on September 02, 2019, 03:03:31 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 01, 2019, 01:43:29 PM
Well, that's not at all a dangerous proposition.

Gove has refused to rule out that, if Parliament passes a law preventing No Deal, that the government could just ignore the law (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/01/brexit-gove-refuses-rule-out-ignoring-law-passed-stop-no-deal-) in question.

WeR'e SaViNg DeMoCrAcY fRoM iTsElf !11!!

iT's tHe WiLl oF tHe PeOpLe !1!!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 02, 2019, 07:38:01 AM
Quote from: Juana on September 02, 2019, 02:27:31 AM
That's definitely going to work out, isn't it?

The thing is, constitutionally it's possible to do so. It's just the kind of thing which has never been done before as a matter of convention and tradition.

Still, if it does happen, then Parliament need to VONC the PM, right away.

It's scary how quickly we are devolving into an authoritarian state. First we decide on a policy that explicitly was mentioned as not being an option during the referendum. Then we suspend Parliament to avoid votes against that option. Then MPs are threatened with losing their positions over it (in addition to the actual threats on their lives they receive from the Brexit Uber Alles morons, every day). And now we've reached the "we don't actually need to listen to what Parliament says" stage.

All of this from a PM who was selected by less than 91,000 people and whose only democratic legitimacy rests with the support of the Parliament he shows so much contempt for.

King Charles I also thought he didn't need to listen to Parliament.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 02, 2019, 08:35:47 AM
The push for no deal looks more and more like they're aiming to be able to declare a state of emergency after brexit..
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 02, 2019, 09:19:59 AM
They might do it in the next couple of weeks.

Under the Civil Contingencies Act, they can push through any legislation they like, but it's subject to Parliamentary scrutiny after 30 days. If Parliament can't meet, however, they can't reject the legislation...

This would run counter to their "it's all fine, you definitely won't run out of food and there will be nothing wrong" propaganda though, so I don't know.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 09:35:33 AM
So, Boris wants an election (maybe).

It should be noted that an election has the same functional outcome as suspending Parliament, in that all MPs resign for 5 weeks. There is furthermore a fear that Boris would agree with an election but set the date for after Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 03, 2019, 11:44:38 AM
Deselecting MPs who vote in favour of  an extension isn't as much of a threat if there's no election coming up. An election  after brexit might give a different party or coalition the majority, so all the problems will be their fault.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 12:05:14 PM
I think Boris is hoping he can make it into a No Deal Brexit/Remain dichotomy for the election. If he doesn't have to fear Farage splitting the vote, he could return with No Deal supporting Tories and not have to worry about Parliament at all.

Which is worrying in and of itself, given the contempt the No Deal crowd have for Parliamentary powers and functions. It would be giving Boris a blank cheque until 2024
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 03, 2019, 12:44:28 PM
The bigger question isn't No deal vs remain it is if no deal, what then?
Ireland will still maintain that the UK must keep to the commitment  of the GFA and that all NI citizens can live as "Irish British Or both", If I am a farmer in NI, I am entitled to the same rights to the European markets as farmers from the south. If there are tariffs and regulatory hurdles created that breaks it. No one is talking about sanctions for breaching a peace treaty, but they will after.
Pence is here today and has reiterated that for the UK to get a US trade deal it will need to uphold the GFA.
The assumption Boris seems to have is that a bunch of micro deals with the EU can be made after no deal to restore the flow of trade.
These include Europol, the ISEM (energy), Euratom, medical research and data sharing at university level and of course customs and the flow of goods. The UK after no deal is a new applicant to these, not a continuing member.

There is nasty security clause on all of these (demonstrate by Greece/Turkey), which is the veto on new membership, you guessed it, the plan is for Ireland to make the backstop prerequisite for application to these or automatically veto the application. So never mind his idea of micro-deals, there wont be any easing, instead lets look at the emergency easing measures which are all short term:
Open skies (the thing that stops flights being grounded) - 6 months
Hauliers prioritisation - 9 months
Access to financial markets - 1 Year

One by one each of the above will elapse and Ireland wont be allowing extensions. The first two create chaos, the third collapses the world economy, If NI, our beautiful deranged moon calf is ignored by one of its parents, then its time to make that problem everyone's problem.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 01:39:46 PM
Quoteif no deal, what then?

Well, much like Brexit itself, no-one has actually thought of this.  As I'm sure you've noticed, this country is so mired in sloganeering and pointless soundbites it doesn't recognize that "no deal" isn't the end point, but the start of a much more dangerous phase.

People really seem to think we will tell the EU to go fuck themselves and trade on WTO rules with them for forever. Or somehow they will see our stiff upper lip and resolve (read: reckless insanity) and offer a better deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on September 03, 2019, 01:46:48 PM

With all the shit i've read about the CIA, if you were to tell me that Rachel Meghan Markle is an operative for that institution and is part of a grand operation which includes Brexit, with the intention of the US doing an annexation of England...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 01:52:43 PM
Well the really funny thing is that the US establishment would really prefer that the UK stay in the EU. Given the strength of the UK-USA alliance, it meant that there was a "sensible" hand in the decision-making process, especially given the UK's influence in the EU as a whole. It meant if Germany got any ideas about, say, converting the EU into becoming a hegemonic power on the continent outside of the NATO framework and capable of potentially deterring US actions in the region, the UK would not only be able to keep them informed, but potentially derail any such moves.

Instead, you have a US president who openly calls for a No Deal Brexit and tries his hardest to spur on the independent development of Germany and the EU's combined armed forces through constant heckling over military spending.

This is why Obama made the statements he did in 2016...for all that it looked like US meddling in UK affairs.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 04:07:25 PM
Government majority gone. Tory MP Phillip Lee just physically removed himself to sit with the Lib Dems during Boris' statement on the G7 meetings, and put out a statement saying he was defecting.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 03, 2019, 04:19:25 PM
The Parliament proceedings have devolved to WWE theatrics.

*lights go dark, Ominous music starts playing, sparklers and smoke machines from the edges of the floor*

Oh my God, Sinn Fein have taken up their seats!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 04:21:09 PM
At least with WWE I can see a chair broken over someone's back.

They don't allow that in the Commons, on account of Rees-Mogg being targeted by absolutely everyone.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 03, 2019, 04:30:46 PM
I would pay to see that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 05:17:23 PM
Did you hear his interview where he tried to tell a doctor - who had worked as a consultant for the civil service on Operation Yellowhammer - that he was a remoaner who didn't know what he was talking about (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/02/jacob-rees-mogg-doctor-shameful-no-deal-drug-concerns)?

The man's such an insufferable prick, I don't know how his own wife doesn't strangle him in his sleep.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 03, 2019, 05:18:56 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 03, 2019, 04:30:46 PM
I would pay to see that.

Same.  Mogg has the most punchable face in Europe.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 03, 2019, 05:19:21 PM
Looks like there's a bit of conservative mutiny brewing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 05:20:29 PM
Oh yeah, the numbers are there to topple the government...if everyone can agree that's the best course of action.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 05:23:21 PM
Well actually hang on.

Kate Hoey is Labour in name only, she'll vote with the government, as will Charlie Elphicke.

The 10 Tory rebels, Gauke, Letwin et al should cancel them out, but they haven't committed to leaving the party yet, just voting to prevent No Deal occuring.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 03, 2019, 05:30:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/sX8gBS5.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 03, 2019, 06:48:03 PM
The Moog interview is great. Should be broadcast every time the worm speaks.

As should his book sales which last I heard was still not in triple digits. Hells, if you knock off 20-30 review copies it's barely double.

In tomorrow's news, enough labour MPs decide to prop government up as they just hate Corbyn that much. And/or fear the sun/mail headlines against them. Which are coming in droves.

Also funny is eu official reactions to anything government says. Ranges from "no" to "this is a blatant lie." As I understand diplomacy this is the equivalent of "fucking idiot".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 03, 2019, 07:18:42 PM
And the defections have begun.

https://www.apnews.com/b19feee04deb4747a4fc5839680e183f
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 04, 2019, 02:10:17 AM
Boom.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/03/world/europe/brexit-uk-parliament-vote.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR2TVSHMG0reJcnZqA9HWeDN05eEJz7ENTXNuWbcDsB8E6C7W3-Rlgb4s6k
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Juana on September 04, 2019, 02:21:54 AM
Well then.


I have to say I'm still baffled as to how they imagine this whole backstop thing is going to work out if they continue to insist on kicking it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 04, 2019, 07:45:06 AM
Quote from: Juana on September 04, 2019, 02:21:54 AM
Well then.


I have to say I'm still baffled as to how they imagine this whole backstop thing is going to work out if they continue to insist on kicking it.

If a new government can be formed without relying on the party of the 18th century DUP, there is an option for NI to stay in the customs union.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 04, 2019, 07:50:47 AM
The "undemocratic" backstop (which between 60-70 percent of NI support), Is meant as a fall back to protect the peace treaty the good Friday agreement. The backstop can go any time, it just needs an alternative that also protects the gfa.
The demands to remove it go like this:
"Remove the hated backstop"
"Have you an alternative?"
"... Remove the backstop" repeat for 3 years.
When faced with the reality that Ireland will allow no deal over no backstop, last nights shenanigans kicked off and a very real chance of a softer brexit is appearing. The backstop isn't needed if the UK is in the customs union, but if part of it leaves NI needs to stay.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 04, 2019, 07:54:16 AM
And yeah as magpie said, the only thing standing between boris and triggering the backstop and getting on with brexit for the rest of the UK are the ten dinosaurs from the DUP
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 04, 2019, 10:24:42 AM
Who, if a general election goes ahead, will hopefully no longer be a factor in decision-making anymore. Because seriously, fuck the DUP.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 04, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
Or not. I see Labour are refusing a call for an election.

This is probably going to get them a lot of shit, given the double standards that are frequently applied to Labour (see also: how many screeching articles on Labour deselections of MPs, of which there have been precisely zero, versus Boris' 21 deselections yesterday) but there is a clever kind of logic to it.

This means that the government needs to come up with a plan that can command a majority in government, while not putting any of the onus on Labour to run a successful election campaign, form a (likely coalition) government and renegotiate with the EU.

At the same time, with the Tory majority gone, and the only other options for partners being the Lib Dems and SNP, Labour actually becomes the only viable choice for getting any kind of workable Brexit past the Commons.

Of course, time is still on Boris' side. If he can stall for 2 months, we drop out by default.  But it puts him in a very uncomfortable position.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 04, 2019, 02:23:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 04, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
Of course, time is still on Boris' side. If he can stall for 2 months, we drop out by default.  But it puts him in a very uncomfortable position.

The EU has a contingency for that
Line one of article 50 would indicate if there is a constitutional crises that it is invalid, obviously they are not going to just say "No you are not leaving because you are a basket case", but it gives them credibly to say they need to wait and see what happens and that it would be unfair to allow the UK to sleepwalk into no deal.
The mechanism for that is the extension date, this was made flexible because france were afraid of dicking around, and well... yeah. But a flexible extension date means the EU could unilaterally say, "you have until January if you need it", and if parliament indicate a majority wanting that, they can ignore Boris crowing, if they take no action to change anything November 1st it is up to the UK to enact the no deal changes.
That would cause further problems in the UK though, as you would have half the government saying they are not seeking to use the extension despite not having a firm grasp on power, and the other half, the majority, saying they do want the extension, creating that legal ambiguity for A50 meeting its constitutional requirements
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 04, 2019, 02:24:35 PM
Also last nights vote was 52% to 48% which to me just confirms that this is the work of some malevolent deity with a dickish sense of humour.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 04, 2019, 02:31:45 PM
Hm, I didn't know about that clause but it's good to see the EU has options to rescue us from our own stupidity.

And yes. A previous Brexit vote was also 48-52. You'd think if the democratic credentials of Brexit are that obvious, why do we keep having to have so many votes on it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 04, 2019, 02:46:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 04, 2019, 02:31:45 PM
Hm, I didn't know about that clause but it's good to see the EU has options to rescue us from our own stupidity.

And yes. A previous Brexit vote was also 48-52. You'd think if the democratic credentials of Brexit are that obvious, why do we keep having to have so many votes on it?

Because it's only democracy if the nationalists win, silly.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Juana on September 04, 2019, 08:44:28 PM
Thanks for the explanation, guys. 😊
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 05, 2019, 12:43:31 PM
Jo Johnson, Boris' own brother, has quit the Cabinet.

He's actually not entirely terrible either, for a posh Tory. As an editor at the Financial Times he actually knew his stuff, and he's considered quite "left-leaning" and "pro-European", which is Tory code for "accepts reality and doesn't think we should go back to 1850".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 05, 2019, 01:51:44 PM
Is he an independent now or will there be a by-election to add to the mess?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 05, 2019, 03:56:02 PM
Huh, I thought he had just stepped down as a Cabinet minister, not as Tory MP, but I see he is doing both.

Looks like he will stand as an independent until the next election, whenever that is. Usually I would prefer a by-election, I remember how the "Change UK" MPs refused their own constituents one, but given the current situation it seems a bit more understandable.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 09, 2019, 04:11:53 PM
Parliament gets shut down this evening.

It's still not clear whether the Brexit law passed by Parliament will get Royal Assent, or when. Given Downing Street has said, again, today, that it will not seek an extension (which the law requires the PM to do), I have a horrible feeling that he will refuse to sign the law while Parliament is in recess. After all, if Parliament's not sitting, what can it actually do?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 09, 2019, 04:14:29 PM
Also Bercow is resigning. The man was, by all accounts, a complete jerk, but he made the government accountable to Parliament.

I doubt his replacement will be similarly inclined.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Juana on September 09, 2019, 05:56:58 PM
Any suspicions why, Cain?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 09, 2019, 07:51:50 PM
The current tensions  mean it will either be someone willing to break the law and rules of parliament to further brexit or impede it. The speaker is supposed to be impartial, something that has all but been erased
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 10, 2019, 12:47:36 AM
Quote from: Juana on September 09, 2019, 05:56:58 PM
Any suspicions why, Cain?

It's been openly planned for 2+ years, the opportunity for the timing was just a nice little "fuck you". This guy was a Tory member prior to speaker which makes the reaction from that side even more amusing.

Convention dictates that the next one should be from labour but  I wouldn't be surprised if that's broken.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2019, 12:56:37 AM
So, royal assent has been given on the anti-no deal law.

Boris has to be shitting square bricks by now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on September 10, 2019, 01:20:26 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2019, 12:56:37 AM
So, royal assent has been given on the anti-no deal law.

Boris has to be shitting square bricks by now.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/queen-approves-law-blocking-no-16889400

I found that story buried beneath a bunch of paparazzi shit trash, is this like not important news or why did i have such a hard time finding it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 10, 2019, 05:14:56 AM
Quote from: Juana on September 09, 2019, 05:56:58 PM
Any suspicions why, Cain?

Pretty much what Faust and Junk have said.

Also, the best actual candidates for the position are either Tory rebels who were expelled by Boris, or Labour MPs (Harriet Harman for example, who would be among my leading choices), who will have a hard time winning Tory support.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 10, 2019, 05:24:24 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2019, 12:56:37 AM
So, royal assent has been given on the anti-no deal law.

Boris has to be shitting square bricks by now.

Boris' options

1) find a loophole in 5 weeks
2) dying in a ditch (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/id-rather-die-in-a-ditch-than-ask-for-brexit-delay-says-boris-johnson-mprnrrdg0)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2019, 04:04:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 10, 2019, 05:24:24 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2019, 12:56:37 AM
So, royal assent has been given on the anti-no deal law.

Boris has to be shitting square bricks by now.

Boris' options

1) find a loophole in 5 weeks
2) dying in a ditch (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/id-rather-die-in-a-ditch-than-ask-for-brexit-delay-says-boris-johnson-mprnrrdg0)

You guys do have plenty of ditches.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 11, 2019, 10:40:17 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49661855

The appeal against prorogation isn't dead yet.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 11, 2019, 12:34:47 PM
Yup, it looks like this will have to go to the Supreme Court, especially as I suspect the Northern Irish courts will rule in the same way as the Scottish ones (the English and Welsh courts have an undue level of preference they give to the government in constitutional matters for historical reasons which do not affect either of the other two legal systems).

However, no matter what the Supreme Court ultimately rules, it is the case we now have a Prime Minister who not only lost all of his first six votes, but has also been found guilty of misleading the Queen by the courts.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 11, 2019, 12:53:33 PM
Has prorogation of parliament ever been ruled unlawful before? If the Supreme Court agrees, will there be any consequence for the government aside from parliament being recalled?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 11, 2019, 01:13:38 PM
Not that I can see, on either point.  Though infamously the "personal rule" of Charles I, preceded by prorogation of Parliament, did lead to the Civil War.

From my quick reading, while several have been highly questionable in timing and with clear politicial advantage in mind, the only ones with similar scope, in terms of constitutional importance and matters of state, would be the aforementioned by Charles I and Charles II during the Exclusion crisis.

Good thing we don't have any future monarchs named Charles, huh?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 11, 2019, 02:23:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 11, 2019, 01:13:38 PM
Good thing we don't have any future monarchs named Charles, huh?

He still has to outlast Elizabeth.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 11, 2019, 03:48:00 PM
I think it's pretty clear by now that this is the worst timeline. So of course he will.

(Charles is, of course, a walking constitutional crisis (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/after-70-years-has-the-prince-of-wales-learnt-nothing-about-the-monarchs-role/) all on his own, so that will go well with the seven or so other ones we have brewing)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 11, 2019, 04:08:30 PM
Who is this particular walnut?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/brexit-has-its-risks-but-staying-in-the-eu-is-now-unthinkable/
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 11, 2019, 04:26:47 PM
Another Etonian who has failed upwards.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 11, 2019, 04:40:51 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 11, 2019, 04:26:47 PM
Another Etonian who has failed upwards.

Looking back at his articles last decade, he seems to have a gift for being DUMB & WRONG on EVERY SINGLE SUBJECT.

2007:  "Why it is more important now than ever to remain in Iraq."   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 11, 2019, 05:28:43 PM
He's one of these people who cycles between big-name charities and big name think tanks and is never, ever accountable for getting things completely fucking wrong constantly.

It's notable that the International Crisis Group got a reputation for being an early-warning system on foreign crises after he left them.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 11, 2019, 05:31:03 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 11, 2019, 03:48:00 PM
I think it's pretty clear by now that this is the worst timeline. So of course he will.

(Charles is, of course, a walking constitutional crisis (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/after-70-years-has-the-prince-of-wales-learnt-nothing-about-the-monarchs-role/) all on his own, so that will go well with the seven or so other ones we have brewing)

See, this is what happens when you don't write things down. Just don't let a religion co-write it either or else you get things like blasphemy being criminalised that need referendums to fix. Maybe ban calling princes Charles as well.

Is there any framework for something to be declared unconstitutional (like say, a monarch with ideas beyond his station), or is it up to the courts to make a determination as and when issues arise?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 11, 2019, 05:39:33 PM
I think it would have to be down to Parliament, the courts would consider it a political matter, as the English ones did with Parliament's suspension.

Fortunately, Parliament has a LOT of power when it comes to coercing the monarchy. Effectively if Parliament passed a law calling for the Queen's execution, she would have to sign it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 11, 2019, 10:50:13 PM
I am somewhat surprised Boris Johnson turned down an electoral pact with the Brexit Party.

I suppose someone, somewhere, decided that Brexit didn't have enough drama yet and needed more.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 11, 2019, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 11, 2019, 10:50:13 PM
I am somewhat surprised Boris Johnson turned down an electoral pact with the Brexit Party.

I suppose someone, somewhere, decided that Brexit didn't have enough drama yet and needed more.

I'm not sure what to make of that, if he is going for no deal, turning them down is because he thinks no deal will somehow rally people to them for having delivered brexit.
Or he is going to trot out mays deal again, and pray people choose that over no deal
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on September 12, 2019, 12:38:17 AM

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/hong-kong-stock-exchange-offers-37-billion-london-stock-exchange-2019-9-1028515654

Hong Kong Stock Exchange just proposed a $37 billion deal to buy the London Stock Exchange

????????????????
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 12, 2019, 09:23:43 AM
So, the newly released Operation Yellowhammer documents are bullshit.

They literally just went through and changed everything that said Yellowhammer was a "baseline scenario" to a "worst-case scenario", to make it sound not as bad.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 12, 2019, 11:18:17 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 12, 2019, 09:23:43 AM
So, the newly released Operation Yellowhammer documents are bullshit.

They literally just went through and changed everything that said Yellowhammer was a "baseline scenario" to a "worst-case scenario", to make it sound not as bad.

Yep, Blackswan is the name of the worst case scenario and they are refusing to release that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 12, 2019, 11:32:28 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 11, 2019, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 11, 2019, 10:50:13 PM
I am somewhat surprised Boris Johnson turned down an electoral pact with the Brexit Party.

I suppose someone, somewhere, decided that Brexit didn't have enough drama yet and needed more.

I'm not sure what to make of that, if he is going for no deal, turning them down is because he thinks no deal will somehow rally people to them for having delivered brexit.
Or he is going to trot out mays deal again, and pray people choose that over no deal

Would you trust Nigel Farage? How long would a government last relying on the brexit party once they start trying to negotiate trade deals with the EU, the DUP have set the example.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 02:33:31 PM
Quote from: Magpie on September 12, 2019, 11:32:28 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 11, 2019, 11:31:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 11, 2019, 10:50:13 PM
I am somewhat surprised Boris Johnson turned down an electoral pact with the Brexit Party.

I suppose someone, somewhere, decided that Brexit didn't have enough drama yet and needed more.

I'm not sure what to make of that, if he is going for no deal, turning them down is because he thinks no deal will somehow rally people to them for having delivered brexit.
Or he is going to trot out mays deal again, and pray people choose that over no deal

Would you trust Nigel Farage? How long would a government last relying on the brexit party once they start trying to negotiate trade deals with the EU, the DUP have set the example.


Farage doesn't care.  He has found a way to profit off of all of this.

Johnson is just stupid and crazy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 02:41:18 PM
The text is here:

https://www.apnews.com/b18ad91a24e146a5847726036a8fd22e

It is not a worst case scenario, it is a set of rails upon which the UK is traveling.  It is the most likely result.

ETA:  WAIT.  No, this is idiotically-optimistic, on traffic flow alone.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 02:43:57 PM
Item 7 all by itself should make any reasonable person SHIT IN THEIR PANTS.


eta:

Item 11, para iii:  "Will need to seek healthcare in different ways" is a really interesting way of saying "you aren't getting any."

Item 17 is the best British understatement ever made.

Item 18:  At least the black market will thrive.

Also...ITEM 15?  HELLO?

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 12, 2019, 04:01:29 PM
The reports from the leak last month included risks of oil refineries closing, probably item 15.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 12, 2019, 04:11:59 PM
Yeah, the side effect of reducing tariffs to zero on petrol and oil refinery is the collapse of the petrochemicals industry as 100% of it will come from abroad.
North Sea Oil is more of a worry. 2000 Job losses barely cuts it and most are in Scotland.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 05:40:40 PM
Oh, Ireland.

https://www.apnews.com/b18ad91a24e146a5847726036a8fd22e

QuoteIn better news for the embattled British leader, a Belfast court rejected claims that the Conservative government's Brexit strategy should be ruled illegal because it risked undermining Northern Ireland's peace process.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 05:41:25 PM
Quote from: Magpie on September 12, 2019, 04:01:29 PM
The reports from the leak last month included risks of oil refineries closing, probably item 15.

I was assuming item 15 was military-related, but you are probably correct.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 05:42:06 PM
I am amazed that Shandor hasn't popped in to tell us how wonderful all this is.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 12, 2019, 06:25:55 PM
Luckily for our expats, most states have made provisions for UK citizens staying after Brexit (the Netherlands, for example) which will see current benefits continued with minimal disruption, including healthcare.  I don't know what Spain intends to do, and that would be the country that would worry me most, both because of the number of UK citizens living there and because of Spain's desire to put the screws on the UK re: Gibraltar. But by and large, the EU has been more accommodating than the UK has been on this matter.

And yes, other sources have said Item 15 is regarding the closing of oil refineries and the impact on the British energy sector.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 12, 2019, 06:37:49 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 05:42:06 PM
I am amazed that Shandor hasn't popped in to tell us how wonderful all this is.

iT'lL dEsTrOy ThE cOpYrIgHt InDuStRy AnD bIg PhArMa
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on September 12, 2019, 06:45:19 PM
Now that you've said it he'll be sure to say "no this sucks" and then point by point defend the intent while vaguely poo-pooing the execution. It's the libertarian version of No True Scotsman, where you can only say the words in the longest and most roundabout way instead of just getting to the point and making it clear you're not worth engaging with "they aren't REALLY libertarian".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 08:37:59 PM
Ah, yes.  Here's the prick.

https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,38470.0.html
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2018, 05:56:22 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on September 12, 2018, 05:25:28 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2018, 03:34:10 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on September 11, 2018, 11:56:00 PM
I hate to say it, but it this passes they'd be right to leave. Closed borders, nationalism, and paranoid schizophrenic islamophobia would still be retarded ideas, but they'd be right to leave the EU

Welcome to the fun and exciting world of nationalism, jackass.  Buy the ticket, take the ride.

Bannon's reasons why people should leave the EU (national sovereignty, national identity, etc) are still retarded.

The problem is that the EU is currently poised to deliver a non-retarded reason for countries to leave. There are a lot of benefits to being in the EU, and they're well worth giving up the kind of things that Bannon is worried about; the things he cares about are largely worthless anyway. They are not, however, worth giving up a free and open internet.

Here's a diagram. In descending order of importance:

The Internet>International cooperation>Individual nations and the other stupid shit bannon cares about

Look, let me just quote you on this for a little context.

QuoteClosed borders, nationalism, and paranoid schizophrenic islamophobia would still be retarded ideas, but

QuoteClosed borders, nationalism, and paranoid schizophrenic islamophobia would still be retarded ideas, but

Ask Britain how that fucking Brexit thing is working out.

QuoteClosed borders, nationalism, and paranoid schizophrenic islamophobia would still be retarded ideas, but

There you go.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 08:40:28 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2019, 04:11:59 PM
Yeah, the side effect of reducing tariffs to zero on petrol and oil refinery is the collapse of the petrochemicals industry as 100% of it will come from abroad.
North Sea Oil is more of a worry. 2000 Job losses barely cuts it and most are in Scotland.

Are the tories trying to get Border Reivers?  Because this is how you get Border Reivers.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 12, 2019, 08:48:40 PM
Quote
Are the tories trying to get Border Reivers?

God I hope so.  You see this? This is a 2017 election map.

(https://i.imgur.com/Oj1dVJF.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 09:00:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 12, 2019, 08:48:40 PM
Quote
Are the tories trying to get Border Reivers?

God I hope so.  You see this? This is a 2017 election map.

(https://i.imgur.com/Oj1dVJF.png)

What do the colors represent?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 12, 2019, 09:25:39 PM
Oh right, blues are Tories, red is Labour, dark yellow is the Lib Dems and that light yellow is the SNP.

As you can see, there's a whole bunch of Tories sitting directly south of the border.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 09:30:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 12, 2019, 09:25:39 PM
Oh right, blues are Tories, red is Labour, dark yellow is the Lib Dems and that light yellow is the SNP.

As you can see, there's a whole bunch of Tories sitting directly south of the border.

I'm betting on the Scots.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on September 13, 2019, 02:07:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 09:30:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 12, 2019, 09:25:39 PM
Oh right, blues are Tories, red is Labour, dark yellow is the Lib Dems and that light yellow is the SNP.

As you can see, there's a whole bunch of Tories sitting directly south of the border.

I'm betting on the Scots.

I wouldn't. Half of us are unionists/members of the 1690 re-enactment society and the other half are fucking liberals who's idea of battle tactics is to hold their hands up and try to diffuse the situation, right up until the dude they're trying to placate is pulling his machete back out their skull, after which you can't really rely on their support much beyond sandbags and meat. Bit different in "actual scotland" north of Tyndrum, but there's so few of us up there that we'll be stuck fighting guerrilla fashion. Works for me, tho, so that's where I'll be headed if shit kicks off. I know a couple of - ripe for the picking - shooting estates where I can stock up on weapons, once I've dealt with the gentry there. Of course, my fellow primates are a constant source of disappointment and this whole shitshow will probably blow over with barely a drop of blood spilled but I can dream.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2019, 02:27:22 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 13, 2019, 02:07:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 12, 2019, 09:30:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 12, 2019, 09:25:39 PM
Oh right, blues are Tories, red is Labour, dark yellow is the Lib Dems and that light yellow is the SNP.

As you can see, there's a whole bunch of Tories sitting directly south of the border.

I'm betting on the Scots.

I wouldn't. Half of us are unionists/members of the 1690 re-enactment society and the other half are fucking liberals who's idea of battle tactics is to hold their hands up and try to diffuse the situation, right up until the dude they're trying to placate is pulling his machete back out their skull, after which you can't really rely on their support much beyond sandbags and meat. Bit different in "actual scotland" north of Tyndrum, but there's so few of us up there that we'll be stuck fighting guerrilla fashion. Works for me, tho, so that's where I'll be headed if shit kicks off. I know a couple of - ripe for the picking - shooting estates where I can stock up on weapons, once I've dealt with the gentry there. Of course, my fellow primates are a constant source of disappointment and this whole shitshow will probably blow over with barely a drop of blood spilled but I can dream.


All Scotsmen revert to type when the good booze runs out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 14, 2019, 03:16:21 AM
Cameron's memoir out.

Short version: I'm an idiot.

Long version: I don't understand my party or country and even knowing what I know now, I'd do it again. Also, I smoked massive drugs too just like all my former colleagues. Behold my edge, tis sharper than thine.

I'm assuming that with Blair, major, brown etc. Putting the boot into johnson he's felt left out and wants to remind everyone who's fuckup this all was to begin with.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 14, 2019, 11:19:23 AM
He's still dodging and denying though. "Oh there was going to be a referendum one day." No there wasn't, because the swivel-eyed loon brigade aside, most people didn't care.

However, Cameron had a bad election because the press went full tilt "Syian rapefugees are going to murder us in our beds" all year long and UKIP ate into his vote. So in an attempt to win back the votes of racist pensioners, he launched an ill-conceived, poorly ran referendum campaign that was treated as a way to give the posh bastard in Number 10 a black eye, which a lot of people promptly jumped at. Then, once the magnitude of his fuckup was realised, he ran away from the whole situation.

If he could admit that, well I'd still advocate kicking him in the balls, but I'd have at least some respect for him.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 15, 2019, 07:18:43 AM
Point of order, is his formal full name still "pigfucker"? I don't think we're using the proper level of respect for his accomplishments.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 15, 2019, 11:12:02 PM
https://www.breakingnews.ie/showbiz/hulk-actor-mark-ruffalo-weighs-in-on-that-boris-johnson-metaphor-950915.html

Why do I live in a world where the actor from a superhero film is correcting the UK prime minister on his metaphor on his disastrous pet project.

This is not the distopia I was promised, this is somehow so much worse.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on September 15, 2019, 11:39:37 PM

Maybe even a metaphor involving a comics superhero is too advanced for his demographic - something simpler like "We in EU is we with chains, but we brexit, we dog without leash."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on September 16, 2019, 12:23:05 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on September 15, 2019, 11:39:37 PM

Maybe even a metaphor involving a comics superhero is too advanced for his demographic - something simpler like "We in EU is we with chains, but we brexit, we dog without leash."
"Britain in EU is wolf in pack, have to fight for share of moose.  After brexit, be wolf without pack, lucky even to get rabbit."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 16, 2019, 04:18:47 PM
Boris is delusional again.

https://www.apnews.com/828d1a2c67314eeea5bdf3b6688a05d8
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 16, 2019, 05:32:22 PM
He thinks he can grift the EU with the same bullshit moves he pulled on his editors, readers and ex-girlfriends.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 17, 2019, 03:45:18 PM
When asked to present his alternative plan for the backstop, Boris presented the Withdrawal Agreement, with the section about the backstop removed.
A lot of people focusing on the podium by the protesters fiasco but to me the above is a much more humiliating.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 17, 2019, 04:43:53 PM
Well the podium thing is just the sublime end moment of the "chicken Corbyn" meme that Downing Street has been trying to push oh so very hard, so it's understandable why people might focus on that.  Like, you can't accuse people of cowardice for weeks on end then run away at the first sign of scrutiny.

But yeah. That's also pretty bad.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 17, 2019, 05:31:29 PM
Yes, I suppose that was compounded by him literally comparing himself to the incredible hulk and then slinking away like a coward from the booos.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 17, 2019, 05:32:08 PM
"HULK SELF-CONSCIOUS"   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 19, 2019, 12:35:41 PM
So, not Brexit-related, but this is how it goes when end up in the public eye in the UK.

A very angry father confronts Boris Johnson at a hospital, over how the NHS has "been destroyed" under the Tories and in particular that his own daughter nearly died due to a lack of staffing to see her after she was taken to the hospital.

Within hours, the BBC's political editor decides not just to reveal that the man is a Labour activist, (which is fair and somewhat relevant, though it shouldn't be the defining aspect of the encounter), but also tweet out his personal twitter account.

Naturally, as a result, he is now being inundated with BoJo trolls saying this is all a Labour conspiracy, that his daughter doesn't exist etc.

The BBC decided this hilariously tone-deaf statement was appropriate as a response to people who rightly said "yo, wtf?"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EExncrIWwAEbW1o?format=jpg&name=small)

FWIW, the father in question has said she is "doing her job without fear or favour", though he did note "Labour activist cares about the NHS" is not a huge scoop.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on September 19, 2019, 12:56:46 PM
To be honest, reading this thread and looking up the details has me really worried. If I were you and had the option, I would get out while I still could.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on September 19, 2019, 01:17:18 PM
If you are currently living in the UK or Ireland, this is not a drill, please vacate immediately. This is not a joke, this is going to be apocalyptic levels of absurdity and violence. There is no scenario where this ends well. I salute your courage if you stay but this is nuts.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 19, 2019, 02:14:39 PM
Ireland will be fine, the stress test indicates in a worst case scenario we will need to send all goods to and from europe via ships instead of ship > drive across Uk > ship.
Ironically this exacerbates the UK shipping issues, as we will be taking up a lot of the routes and dock space.
All medicines are stockpiled, we're a tiny population so it wasn't too bad to do so for 4Million people.
The only thing that we cannot source outside of the UK is toilet paper, why we don't make this is beyond me, but I'll stock up on a few 12 packs.
It's still going to be shit and cause a recession, but we know what that feels like (the total prosperous years in the last 900 for Ireland are 1987-2001, then 2003-2008), in short we know how to be miserable poor bastards, but I think this is something the UK may not be prepared for, even in the worst days of thatcher it never got as bad)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on September 19, 2019, 02:23:54 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 19, 2019, 02:14:39 PM
The only thing that we cannot source outside of the UK is toilet paper, why we don't make this is beyond me, but I'll stock up on a few 12 packs.
What paper stock is used for UK banknotes?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 19, 2019, 02:41:16 PM
Fortunately I have no conditions that require medication. I have a month of non-perishable food stockpiled. I have savings in excess of five figures. I also have another passport and a job that allows me to pick my own hours and doesn't pay in sterling.

Still prepared to leave, if I have to. But for now, it's a matter of sitting back and seeing what happens. Especially since the government just admitted it needs another year to sort out the Irish border issue alone (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deadline-irish-backstop-no-deal-stephen-barclay-october-a9111756.html).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on September 19, 2019, 02:46:22 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on September 19, 2019, 02:23:54 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 19, 2019, 02:14:39 PM
The only thing that we cannot source outside of the UK is toilet paper, why we don't make this is beyond me, but I'll stock up on a few 12 packs.
What paper stock is used for UK banknotes?

We're trying to avoid imports from the UK, besides, we don't want to go polluting our water with Sterling.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 19, 2019, 03:26:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 19, 2019, 02:41:16 PM
Fortunately I have no conditions that require medication. I have a month of non-perishable food stockpiled. I have savings in excess of five figures. I also have another passport and a job that allows me to pick my own hours and doesn't pay in sterling.

Still prepared to leave, if I have to. But for now, it's a matter of sitting back and seeing what happens. Especially since the government just admitted it needs another year to sort out the Irish border issue alone (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deadline-irish-backstop-no-deal-stephen-barclay-october-a9111756.html).

I love how he said that as an argument for the EU to drop the backstop instead of him saying he would need to ask for a another year or two extension.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on September 19, 2019, 03:52:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 19, 2019, 02:41:16 PM
Fortunately I have no conditions that require medication. I have a month of non-perishable food stockpiled. I have savings in excess of five figures. I also have another passport and a job that allows me to pick my own hours and doesn't pay in sterling.


But do you have a Honda?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 19, 2019, 04:20:53 PM
Quote from: LMNO on September 19, 2019, 03:52:49 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 19, 2019, 02:41:16 PM
Fortunately I have no conditions that require medication. I have a month of non-perishable food stockpiled. I have savings in excess of five figures. I also have another passport and a job that allows me to pick my own hours and doesn't pay in sterling.


But do you have a Honda?

I have Hondas full of silver mines. Don't ask how that works.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on September 19, 2019, 07:38:07 PM
"A Honda full of wormholes."  Got it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 19, 2019, 07:41:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on September 19, 2019, 07:38:07 PM
"A Honda full of wormholes."  Got it.

LIKE A MOTORCYCLE ENTANGLED IN THE MUD.  MAYBE.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 22, 2019, 03:42:59 PM
(https://preview.redd.it/agnxbc41b5o31.jpg?width=323&auto=webp&s=2042896439d52aeaafbdd6ea7a0a08ad5dc657af)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 22, 2019, 05:05:33 PM
Um, is that a coup, because that looks like a coup?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 22, 2019, 05:40:25 PM
More of a civil service junta.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 22, 2019, 05:53:06 PM
Ah ok so it's to ease the flow as opposed to eject remainer civil servants who wont comply with brexit orders.
This doesnt sound like something the military want to have to do
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 22, 2019, 07:05:28 PM
That's not at all terrifying.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 22, 2019, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 22, 2019, 05:53:06 PM
Ah ok so it's to ease the flow as opposed to eject remainer civil servants who wont comply with brexit orders.
This doesnt sound like something the military want to have to do

Yes, and no, they don't.

In theory it will probably be to make up for the shortfall of civil servants in less critical departments, as Operation Yellowhammer has seconded a significant number of them to critical posts.

But that was under May's planning, which while generally incompetent and begrudging, was not outright hostile to the idea of Parliamentary democracy in theory. God only knows what Boris, Cummings etc are doing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on September 22, 2019, 10:39:14 PM
Yellowhammer will be renamed to Redhammer, and the rhetoric will go full-bore 1950s "the fucking Reds" Comintern paranoid bullshit in the hope no one notices their country became an island prison where everyone will die of starvation or go mad. The Tower of London will end up looking like the Lost Bastille from Dark Souls 2, complete with the Queen stumbling blindly around a meat freezer someone set on fire while holding a greatsword the size of a flagpole.

I can't really imagine it being better than this, this is just my best guess at a realistic game plan from Boris and company. If it's not this, it's bound to be worse.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 23, 2019, 12:44:48 AM
doobie doobie doo too sick with the flu to fact check.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-s-grants-to-ex-model-jennifer-arcuri-were-an-abuse-of-power-20wghc5nd?fbclid=IwAR0qw-IN9_LjZd23CQNsslGVjY6f2_6Apk-Cnxu0Tm6C9pPV0D1O2gn3oYA
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 23, 2019, 12:54:33 AM
Yup. City Hall is investigating, along with at least one unspecified government department.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on September 23, 2019, 10:59:41 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 23, 2019, 12:54:33 AM
Yup. City Hall is investigating, along with at least one unspecified government department.

If it isn't being investigated by the Dept of Administrative Affairs there is no justice in this world
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 23, 2019, 12:42:03 PM
One would hope, but given recent events...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 24, 2019, 11:12:55 AM
Proroguing has been found illegal and Parliament is free to sit at the speakers discretion (today is what he is saying if he can arrange it).
This is giving me false hope. It will be heartbreaking to watch labor etc squander this
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2019, 11:18:31 AM
Johnson has said he would prorogue Parliament again if this happened.

In which case this is heading for "contempt for everything" territory.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2019, 12:37:09 PM
The Brexit Party seem to be reserving their ire for Cummings, who they want sacked. Meanwhile, both the SNP and Labour leadership have called on Boris to stand down, while the Lib Dems have called for a unity government (but not under Corbyn).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on September 24, 2019, 12:52:43 PM
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/625364221567172608/625928922747371535/7k949mh56bo31.png)

Sorry, someone just posted this in a discord room I'm in. Unsure how relevant or true to the situation it is.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2019, 02:14:13 PM
In theory we could just leave, sure.

However, without a deal, it would put us, and probably the rest of the world, will be plunged into a recession.

However, the UK cannot decide on a deal that actually secures our interests while not completely ruining the country, while not pissing off the Angry Old Person vote, who the current government relies on.

So it's more a case of us standing in the door, making over-the-top and ridiculous demands, then acting affronted when they are not catered to, with an undertone of "we will pull this trigger and fuck us all over".

Also not very relevant to Parliament's unlawful suspension.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 24, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
Labor have just been handed the most significant advantage in this whole process, and the opportunity to unify people for second ref / remain but no, today is the day to squander it on infighting
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2019, 04:21:07 PM
Are they still fighting over the Brexit policy vote?

Labour is, as far as I can tell, the only political force in the country that recognizes that a culture war on the lines of Brexit is bad for everyone and is actively trying to avoid it, while still taking a fairly hard "Remainer" position (referendum and campaign for remain).

But that's not good enough, apparently. Because the Lib Dems are (again) making promises they have no intention of keeping with their "Revoke" campaign, Labour must "compromise", by which it is meant adopt their policies wholesale and bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Do the Lib Dems and Labour centrists know what is happening outside of their marginal support base? How heavily the hard right are running the "treason" line? Revoke Brexit without a referendum to defuse the "will of the people" bullshit and there will be considerable civil unrest. Appear to be too heavily promoting a particular outcome, and they'll claim the referendum was rigged and unfair. Labour is the only party saying, right now, "yes there are disagreements on Brexit, but Brexit is not all of politics and we still need to work together to find solutions to this and other problems."

Everyone else is busy drawing up battle lines and appealing to the worst people on both sides.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 24, 2019, 04:25:12 PM
That's true and out and out remain would lead to problems as big as no deal would create, Labor playing it down the middle and eventually handing responsibility back to the people again is possibly the only way out of this web
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 24, 2019, 04:30:28 PM
Alternatively the withdrawal agreement, acting as a stand in for the EU for everyone to blame for the next 40 years while also technically delivering on brexit
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2019, 05:03:29 PM
Yeah. Labour are playing the long game. In the short-term though I expect them to get absolutely hammered for it by the press and the politicians who stand most to gain from said culture war.

I think that the Withdrawal agreement is dead in the water now. Labour and the SNP can just keep blocking the government from any meaningful action until the polls favour Labour in a general election. Whereupon it'll be referendum 2, possibly preceded by Labour negotiations on a Customs Union, to include it as an option on the ballot.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2019, 02:50:50 PM
I see that the rightwing press is having a very sensible and not at all hysterical response to yesterday's ruling:

(https://i.imgur.com/Kr7JTfA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/u8ldnJ1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Q7PEns9.jpg)

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 25, 2019, 03:18:51 PM
It's a shock. Never saw it coming. The ridiculous doublethink that's coming out of government is equally amusing.

At least it keeps the £126k+ to the pole dancer off the headlines for another day. A few more stupid things and you might just push that into next week's old news.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2019, 03:37:58 PM
To be honest I would be happier with the pole dancer as the brexit advisor instead of Dominik Cummings
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2019, 05:53:45 PM
Nah, we gotta discuss how Lady Hale, who graduated top of her class with a 1st in Law from Cambridge, was Professor of Law at Manchester University, is the first woman to be appointed to the Law Commission, only the second woman to be appointed to the Court of Appeal and President of the Supreme Court was a BAR-MAID.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFTELmTX4AINBTg?format=jpg&name=900x900)

I swear to god, these fucking people. It's amazing how someone can be an "out-of-touch elitist" yet be a fucking peasant at the same time.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 05:53:56 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 24, 2019, 11:18:31 AM
Johnson has said he would prorogue Parliament again if this happened.

In which case this is heading for "contempt for everything" territory.

What happens if parliament says "no"?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 05:55:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2019, 05:53:45 PM
Nah, we gotta discuss how Lady Hale, who graduated top of her class with a 1st in Law from Cambridge, was Professor of Law at Manchester University, is the first woman to be appointed to the Law Commission, only the second woman to be appointed to the Court of Appeal and President of the Supreme Court was a BAR-MAID.


I swear to god, these fucking people. It's amazing how someone can be an "out-of-touch elitist" yet be a fucking peasant at the same time.

We get the same thing out of the right wingers over AOC.  "How dare she work her way through college?"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 05:53:56 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 24, 2019, 11:18:31 AM
Johnson has said he would prorogue Parliament again if this happened.

In which case this is heading for "contempt for everything" territory.

What happens if parliament says "no"?

Same rules apply as before. So long as the Cabinet tells the Queen to do it, it happens.

But it would be even more obvious that Boris is doing this to avoid Parliamentary oversight in that case, so it would likely be declared null by the courts again.  In that case, Parliament would actually have to do something unless they want to spend all their time shuffing between the Supreme Court and Westminster.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 05:59:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 05:53:56 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 24, 2019, 11:18:31 AM
Johnson has said he would prorogue Parliament again if this happened.

In which case this is heading for "contempt for everything" territory.

What happens if parliament says "no"?

Same rules apply as before. So long as the Cabinet tells the Queen to do it, it happens.

But it would be even more obvious that Boris is doing this to avoid Parliamentary oversight in that case, so it would likely be declared null by the courts again.  In that case, Parliament would actually have to do something unless they want to spend all their time shuffing between the Supreme Court and Westminster.

We really need to revisit that Charles the First thing.  You guys and America both. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on September 25, 2019, 09:20:44 PM
Let them eat cake.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 25, 2019, 09:24:34 PM
Cake comes from the EU. We will eat sovereignty.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 09:31:54 PM
So what you have is one set of rules for one side, and no rules at all for the other side.

The two options are:

1.  Take it like a bitch, and

2.  Start chopping heads off.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 25, 2019, 09:38:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 09:31:54 PM
So what you have is one set of rules for one side, and no rules at all for the other side.

The two options are:

1.  Take it like a bitch, and

2.  Start chopping heads off.

The thing with that is, brexit is the most beige banal tedious existential threat / form of the destroyer could take.
The Nazi's had snazzi outfits and hatefilled autocrats, it was something you could really get the juices flowing for swinging an axe at. 
Brexit is a paperwork and customs nightmare, truly a weapon of Aneris, with a PM who you are lucky if he tucks his shirt in, people are burned out at this stage. 
And so we sleepwalk into the abyss.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 26, 2019, 12:25:49 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 25, 2019, 09:38:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 09:31:54 PM
So what you have is one set of rules for one side, and no rules at all for the other side.

The two options are:

1.  Take it like a bitch, and

2.  Start chopping heads off.

The thing with that is, brexit is the most beige banal tedious existential threat / form of the destroyer could take.
The Nazi's had snazzi outfits and hatefilled autocrats, it was something you could really get the juices flowing for swinging an axe at. 
Brexit is a paperwork and customs nightmare, truly a weapon of Aneris, with a PM who you are lucky if he tucks his shirt in, people are burned out at this stage. 
And so we sleepwalk into the abyss.

Evil is always banal.  In the end, the Nazis were a bunch of meth heads.

Brexit is a bunch of screeching racist hillbillies.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Bruno on September 26, 2019, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 25, 2019, 09:38:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 25, 2019, 09:31:54 PM
So what you have is one set of rules for one side, and no rules at all for the other side.

The two options are:

1.  Take it like a bitch, and

2.  Start chopping heads off.

The thing with that is, brexit is the most beige banal tedious existential threat / form of the destroyer could take.
The Nazi's had snazzi outfits and hatefilled autocrats, it was something you could really get the juices flowing for swinging an axe at. 
Brexit is a paperwork and customs nightmare, truly a weapon of Aneris, with a PM who you are lucky if he tucks his shirt in, people are burned out at this stage. 
And so we sleepwalk into the abyss.

So it's kind of like the ending of Brazil then?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 26, 2019, 12:32:46 PM
So this happened

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/sep/25/boris-johnson-flies-to-uk-as-parliament-returns-after-court-ruling-politics-live

QuoteWidespread condemnation erupted after Boris Johnson shrugged off emotional comments by an MP about the murder of remain-campaigner and Labour MP Jo Cox with the word "humbug"; shortly after, the PM said Cox was best remembered by getting Brexit done, which further fuelled the outrage.

Which was followed today by this.

(https://i.imgur.com/X9bJaX5.png)

We are well beyond dogwhistles at this point.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 26, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/afIh0RC.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 26, 2019, 05:58:38 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 26, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/afIh0RC.png)

And then you gotta sing it again:

Can't get revenge and keep a spotless reputation
Sometimes revenge is a choice you gotta make
My mama came from a softer generation
Where you get a grip and bite your lip just to save a little face

~ Miranda Lambert, the Queen of Losing Your Shit, from "This Ain't Your Mama's Broken Heart"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 26, 2019, 06:42:13 PM
Perhaps even more so than Boris, Cummings is responsible for our current mess. He was the head of Vote Leave, and was found in contempt of Parliament for refusing to appear before a Parliamentary committee over false claims he made during the campaign.

That he's failing so spectacularly and earning the hatred of everyone in Westminster while doing so is somewhat gratifying.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 26, 2019, 09:42:09 PM
There's also this shitshow https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/26/state-fund-jennifer-arcuri-row-grant-firm-pays-tory-mp-johnny-mercer

And arms sales to Saudi also finally getting looked at.

I've still got a fiver on one of his random bastards (literally, a bastard by dictionary definition) being the one to stop this whole thing. Probably violently. Knives are fashionable I hear.



Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 26, 2019, 10:00:31 PM
John Major thinks they're going to try and use an "Order of Council" which apparently only requires a cabinet vote, to delay the No Deal Brexit legislation until after October 31st.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 26, 2019, 10:01:55 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFaNKvXX4AEDYxM?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFaNKvSXUAEYq1T?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 27, 2019, 09:56:52 AM
Every day is a fresh hell. Now the government is threatening and inciting violence against Parliament

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFa-c2OWkAAVRhD?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 27, 2019, 09:59:01 AM
They've also made it clear that, even if an overwhelming Remain majority wins a future referendum, the minority would be justified in being violent.  Note the final two paragraphs.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 27, 2019, 10:36:47 AM
On second thought that border doesnt look so bad. In fact I think a 40 foot wall with turrets might be acceptable
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on September 27, 2019, 01:35:01 PM
If they cannot accept a remain vote, you're likely better off without them, and it sounds like they're going to make it easy for everyone else to pull the trigger.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 27, 2019, 07:24:43 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 27, 2019, 09:59:01 AM
They've also made it clear that, even if an overwhelming Remain majority wins a future referendum, the minority would be justified in being violent.  Note the final two paragraphs.

"A cabinet minister" is Cummings, right? He's been spreading this shit far and wide and it's got his stink all over it.

One would think that those playing the people Vs parliament tune would realise that the stringing up rarely stops where you want it to.

On the plus side, that does also give remain the perfect excuse to riot, whenever they like. The last demos were more than tens of thousands, so clearly morally correct by math.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 27, 2019, 08:20:32 PM
Surprisingly, no. Cummings is the "we're enjoying this" "top aide" mentioned, but this is another Cabinet minister.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 27, 2019, 09:13:41 PM
Oh, sorry. I just assumed Cummings was a minister by now. You know, for fun.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 27, 2019, 10:19:27 PM
He's more of a Viseer, I wouldn't be surprised if he carried a snake staff to meetings
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 28, 2019, 07:27:50 PM
Hey now, viseers are far more competent than this worm. Don't go tarring everyone with an exquisite goatee into the same level as this nonce.

Also, calling a paedophilic related charge on Cummings in less than five years. Absolutely no proof or even hearsay, it just seems obvious for our times though.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 29, 2019, 11:15:49 AM
30 paragrahs in, you'll discover that there's no actual evidence from Downing Street to support these claims. Meaning the Mail on Sunday just went ahead and called Remain MPs traitors.

At this time. In this climate.

If you've been vocally remain, I'd recommend start carrying a weapon.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFnUW2zXoAA4iZE?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on September 29, 2019, 12:23:36 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on September 28, 2019, 07:27:50 PM
Hey now, viseers are far more competent than this worm. Don't go tarring everyone with an exquisite goatee into the same level as this nonce.

Also, calling a paedophilic related charge on Cummings in less than five years. Absolutely no proof or even hearsay, it just seems obvious for our times though.

Calling toddler shagging discovered to be part of the entrance exam in around the same timescale. I've a sneaky suspicion "pigs head" is a euphemism
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 29, 2019, 01:37:31 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 27, 2019, 10:19:27 PM
He's more of a Viseer, I wouldn't be surprised if he carried a snake staff to meetings

That would be his face.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYoeV_dYR4-llEuMOeWbRVSps9hjK5q8rEplk-wQjMW0xq_IIoow)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 29, 2019, 03:07:44 PM
I, for one, am excited about the mail's newest hire, lord haw haw.

Seriously, the propaganda was usually reserved for opinion column with the odd headline to boost a slow sales week. The shift from the dacre regime is subtle but it looks a lot like the proprietor is exterting more editorial control.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 29, 2019, 03:24:58 PM
Yeah, he continues to be the Editor-in-Chief for the Mail on Sunday, unfortunately.

We've reached a point where goalposts aren't merely being shifted so much as the very idea of goalposts is treason.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on September 29, 2019, 09:13:12 PM
That is concerning.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 30, 2019, 06:51:26 AM
https://www.metro.news/hanging-effigies-and-sign-demanding-death-of-tories-at-start-of-conference/1737587/

No comment required.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 30, 2019, 07:48:06 AM
So, this is the kind of shit that will start a civil war.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 30, 2019, 08:57:26 AM
Cummings also getting death threats now, it seems to me, that a British Pride and the Stiff Upper lip would find a civil war preferable then admitting that Brexit and that vote may not have been such a good idea.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 30, 2019, 09:28:35 AM
Andy Burnham immediately condemned those effigies, btw. Like, I heard about the effigies and Burnham's condemnation in the next breath.

I very much doubt that would have happened if the situation were reversed. Hell, if it had been Labour Remainer MPs, no doubt it would have been cheered on, along with calls to reinstate the death penalty for treason, by large sections of the press.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 30, 2019, 09:37:22 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 30, 2019, 08:57:26 AM
Cummings also getting death threats now, it seems to me, that a British Pride and the Stiff Upper lip would find a civil war preferable then admitting that Brexit and that vote may not have been such a good idea.

Are you sure that's not Dominic Grieve who's getting the death threats? People seem to confuse them a lot, but Dominic G is the good Dominic (I wanted him as a future Tory leader before Brexit ever happened, his analysis of the lack of legal underpinning for the Syria intervention was truly excellent).

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/dominic-grieve-receives-death-threat-20330876

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 30, 2019, 10:50:06 AM
It was grieve, of the Grieve Amendment (right?), which worries me because it is another death threat against "the remainer establishment"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 30, 2019, 12:02:46 PM
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if Cummings did eventually get death threats, acting like a smarmy git as he does and especially regarding death threats to sitting MPs.

But Grieve has long been on the Brexiteer shitlist for his silly insistence on things like "Parliamentary procedure" and "following the law", little things like that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 30, 2019, 05:41:25 PM
As far as effigies go, I'll just note that this year's bonfire night should be all kinds of amusing. It's the kind of thing that can really bring a community together.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 30, 2019, 09:49:25 PM
The Uk's grand solution to no border in Northern Ireland is....

A border 5 miles back from the border.

No deal is at this point probably a certainty. No backstop = a border, no deal = a border and an Burning need for the UK to return to the negotiation table.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on October 01, 2019, 08:42:44 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 30, 2019, 09:49:25 PM
The Uk's grand solution to no border in Northern Ireland is....

A border 5 miles back from the border.

No deal is at this point probably a certainty. No backstop = a border, no deal = a border and an Burning need for the UK to return to the negotiation table.

RTE are reporting it as a set of customs checks either side, so two borders, give it a week and Boris will be claiming one border is a gracious concession he's offering.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 01, 2019, 10:22:23 AM
So we get a no mans land as an added bonus? Isn't he generous. The only way the UK can now avoid no deal is the ineffectual opposition to pull their last gasp grab at and call another referendum. Or vote in Mays deal at 11:55 on Oíche Shamhna
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 01, 2019, 11:14:25 AM
Instead of one hard border it'll be two hard, ill-defined borders that stretch over 10 miles inland.

Alternatively, we could go tell the DUP to shit in a hat and draw the border in the Irish Sea. Northern Ireland already has regulatory divergence from the rest of the UK and it's not like the DUP are supplying a majority anymore. That this hasn't happened tells you about Johnson's priorities.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on October 01, 2019, 12:01:05 PM
It gives the DUP space to dig a moat while the bridge to Scotland is being built.

From the outside, it looks like agreeing to let NI stay in the customs union would be political suicide for Johnson after his criticism of the backstop as either breaking up the UK or trapping them in the EU, whether in his own words or from those he surrounds himself with. A plebiscite in NI might have gotten around that, but it's too late now.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 01, 2019, 12:05:54 PM
The only advantage Boris has in a climb down is that everyone assumes that at least every second statement that comes out of his mouth is a lie.

But yes, fuck the DUP, for now and forever.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 01, 2019, 12:07:52 PM
It would also possibly help if Northern Ireland's Assembly hadn't been suspended since January 2017. Then Northern Ireland would be able to make it's voice more apparent in these proceedings, and challenge the insane bullshit the government is coming out with.

Of course, in theory the government should be doing something about that. But they didn't because a) Brexit is taking up all the political bandwidth, b) the DUP could collapse the government if the return was on terms they disagreed with and c) they will tell them things they don't want to hear.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 01, 2019, 12:55:28 PM
I suspect that Sin Feinn would have blocked the NI assembly (they did originally because of the cash for ash, then for the Irish Language act), they didn't need to in the way because Arlene being a useful idiot  set herself up as the roadblock. But I still suspect SF are banking on a no deal, that will accelerate a United Ireland where the backstop would have only maintained the status quo.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on October 01, 2019, 02:41:22 PM
this is the song that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, And they'll continue singing it forever just because this is the song that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, And they'll continue singing it forever just because this is the song that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, And they'll continue singing it forever just because this is the song that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, And they'll continue singing it forever just because this is the song that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on my friends. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, And they'll continue singing it forever just because
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 01, 2019, 08:12:46 PM
So got this today, in response to saying Boris plans wont cut it.

(https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=37685.0;attach=6562;image)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 02, 2019, 12:02:27 AM
Yanks that post in braincels are cute.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 02, 2019, 12:09:28 AM
Yeah at first I was going to respond, and then I looked at his post history, and then I googled his user name and he appears to be mentally unhinged
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on October 02, 2019, 02:10:55 AM
I may be unhinged but that's not proof that I'm wrong. The trail of bodies may be damning, however.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 02, 2019, 10:29:38 AM
Quote from: Faust on October 02, 2019, 12:09:28 AM
Yeah at first I was going to respond, and then I looked at his post history, and then I googled his user name and he appears to be mentally unhinged

I take it you saw his "up the RA" posts too then? Yeah, there's a reason he's hovering at roughly -100 comment karma, despite his number of posts.

In other news, Priti Pratel is tired of the rootless cosmopolitans of specifically North London. This isn't antisemitism because fuck you, Corbyn, that's why (I'm pretty close to Stamford Hill, I have a very good idea of what Patel is alluding to here).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 02, 2019, 04:07:34 PM
Earlier today, Johnson tries a little strong-arming on the EU.  By which I mean he mush-mouthed a "new" compromise and then said "that's it."

EU response:

https://apnews.com/ca54e2b376cf491babee6351a7ea3078

QuoteFrance's foreign minister says that a no-deal Brexit is "the most plausible" possibility for the moment.

Jean-Yves Le Drian told France's lower house of parliament that the European Union "remains available for other proposals" from Britain, but he stressed that none had been presented yet that would be "compatible" with a deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 02, 2019, 04:13:36 PM
The thing is, he can't credibly threaten No Deal while Parliament has signed laws into effect preventing him from doing so (he has 16 days to send the letter, btw).

And even if he did, the maintenance of the Good Friday Agreement is a red line for both Ireland (which can veto any deal Britain seeks) and for the EU as a whole (who want to be seen as a force for stability, both in security and legal terms). So this was always a non-starter.

Meaning, it's for domestic consumption. And despite all the whining about how unfair the media is to them at the Tory party confererence, the tabloids and Telegraph will lap this up.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 02, 2019, 04:19:22 PM
It also fucks NI royally:
A land border with the rest of Ireland, and a sea border for agri where the backstop gives it the best of both worlds (full access to UK and EU Markets).
It's a non runner, as Cain said mostly for home domestic consumption, but part of it is testing the EU to see if they are willing to budge on anything.
Alternatively it could be the proposal of a situation so insufferable for NI that it makes the backstop look good (and out trots Mays deal).

Then there is this:
https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2019/1001/1079529-us-congress-gfa/
The Dems have put in a bill to block a US-UK trade deal if the GFA isn't protected, but this is something McConnel also previously stated he would support so we'll see if it gets through the house.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 02, 2019, 04:19:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 02, 2019, 04:13:36 PM
The thing is, he can't credibly threaten No Deal while Parliament has signed laws into effect preventing him from doing so (he has 16 days to send the letter, btw).

And even if he did, the maintenance of the Good Friday Agreement is a red line for both Ireland (which can veto any deal Britain seeks) and for the EU as a whole (who want to be seen as a force for stability, both in security and legal terms). So this was always a non-starter.

Meaning, it's for domestic consumption. And despite all the whining about how unfair the media is to them at the Tory party confererence, the tabloids and Telegraph will lap this up.

What I'm seeing here is the timer runs out, UK law says no deal, no Brexit, but the the EU says "enough of your shit" and all the snaggletoof Brits get tossed out of Europe.  UK economy crashes.  A short while later, the EU economy crashes.  Somewhere in there the USA economy crashes, already weakened by the trade war.  Putin then learns that it doesn't matter how awesome your victory is if nobody can buy your product.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 02, 2019, 04:21:54 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 02, 2019, 04:19:22 PM
It also fucks NI royally:
A land border with the rest of Ireland, and a sea border for agri where the backstop gives it the best of both worlds (full access to UK and EU Markets).
It's a non runner, as Cain said mostly for home domestic consumption, but part of it is testing the EU to see if they are willing to budge on anything.
Alternatively it could be the proposal of a situation so insufferable for NI that it makes the backstop look good (and out trots Mays deal).

Then there is this:
https://www.rte.ie/news/us/2019/1001/1079529-us-congress-gfa/
The Dems have put in a bill to block a US-UK trade deal if the GFA isn't protected, but this is something McConnel also previously stated he would support so we'll see if it gets through the house.

The way it looks from here, if the backstop remains, Ireland does really well until everything falls apart, as they will sort of be in the same position, trade-wise, as Hong Kong.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 02, 2019, 04:40:21 PM
With the backstop NI would be in the European customs union market and that is comparable with Hong Kong that's true. The Difference here is that trade in NI is inextricably intertwined Where Hong Kong has a robust financial market.

Agriculture and NI go hand in hand, Milk processing being a key example:
Milk is collected from farms around NI
It goes south of the border (not possible in regulatory deviation), where it is processed, it then goes back across the border for packaging and split selling to the Republic (half goes south) and the UK (half goes east)

The backstop is not something that would ever cause economic difficulty for NI, in fact it would end up becoming desirable to put businesses there, which is what I don't think the Tories want to see, it's in their interests to keep NI poor.

Yes they are tied to risks of downturn in the EU and the UK, but less so in the backstop than any other instance.

Either way, what was proposed today was Irelands no deal plan and just as damaging anyway, so Ireland is going to stick with No Deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 02, 2019, 04:48:50 PM
And I say this fully aware that it may plunge the whole world into another economic crises, you have to understand NI a sore point for us, a compromise was made in the nineties that really wasn't easy for us (we gave up our claim to NI provided there would be continued integration and a mechanism for NI to rejoin Ireland), seeing as that difficult painful compromise is now being shit on, there isn't a price can be put on NI, let no deal be our miserable shared cultural experience.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 02, 2019, 05:22:50 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 02, 2019, 04:48:50 PM
And I say this fully aware that it may plunge the whole world into another economic crises, you have to understand NI a sore point for us, a compromise was made in the nineties that really wasn't easy for us (we gave up our claim to NI provided there would be continued integration and a mechanism for NI to rejoin Ireland), seeing as that difficult painful compromise is now being shit on, there isn't a price can be put on NI, let no deal be our miserable shared cultural experience.

I ain't even blaming you.  You are being extorted by the Tories, it would be morally as well as fiscally wrong to knuckle under.

ETA:  Also, you know me.  I will burn the world down before I take a step back, and I admire that in Ireland right now. :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 02, 2019, 05:25:27 PM
Also, here's the nothing-burger, "you can trust us with unspecified conditions" deal that Boris offered.

https://www.apnews.com/04a5ab581a1747528024e94285b29c95
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 02, 2019, 05:26:53 PM
Heh.  Seems to me this "deal" more or less moves all of Ireland out of the UK, economically, and into the EU.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 02, 2019, 05:54:05 PM
Pretty much. It's going to be rejected in less than a day.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 02, 2019, 11:34:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 02, 2019, 05:26:53 PM
Heh.  Seems to me this "deal" more or less moves all of Ireland out of the UK, economically, and into the EU.
It moves customs in NI out if the UK, but it also creates a physical border and symbol of division in Ireland so it's not a runner.
No deal is the outcome of this. However long that is prolonged
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on October 03, 2019, 08:04:50 AM
The part about the NI assembly renewing the proposal every 4 years is limbo for Ireland. The DUP still have a majority in Stormont and I can't see them voting to be more closely aligned with Ireland than Britain, regardless of what actually benefit their voters. Maybe if they add in a border poll after 3 years, give the republic time for our usual pre-referendum citizen's assembly and time to actually hold a referendum if NI votes to rejoin.


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2019, 01:28:28 PM
It would completely gut foreign direct investment into Northern Ireland too, in addition to Ireland as a whole. As much as Brexit at least. Imagine every 4 years, not knowing what the regulatory environment is going to be.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 03, 2019, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 03, 2019, 01:28:28 PM
Imagine every 4 years, not knowing what the regulatory environment is going to be.

So, America.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 04, 2019, 12:33:54 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Ii8MP3S.png)

"Coincidentally", "Britain first" was what Jo Cox's assassin shouted as he killed her.

But I'm sure that Jake Berry was in no way trying to imply that the leader of the opposition should be assassinated.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 04, 2019, 01:57:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 04, 2019, 12:33:54 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Ii8MP3S.png)

"Coincidentally", "Britain first" was what Jo Cox's assassin shouted as he killed her.

But I'm sure that Jake Berry was in no way trying to imply that the leader of the opposition should be assassinated.

Nationalists are always a hoot.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 04, 2019, 02:09:00 PM
I'm almost too exhausted for outrage at this point. I'm just waiting for the first MPs to be killed due to this insanely dangerous rhetoric.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 04, 2019, 03:26:24 PM
Boris has said in court he will be seeking the extension.
If that happens and there is an election, the Brexit party pick up seats from the Tories, this can only lead to the following outcomes:
Divide the Tory seats and just deepen the Parliament split.
Divide the leave vote, and flip seats to labor or lib dems.

I'm hoping for the latter, but I am not sure.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 04, 2019, 04:15:22 PM
Well, he made the lawyers say it, which weirdly adds some credibility to it, or at least doesn't detract from the credibility of known serial liar Boris Johnson saying it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 09, 2019, 02:32:23 PM
There isn't any real news on this, just that I am still banging my head of the desk.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 09, 2019, 03:40:18 PM
Well, no, we did have a day where Downing Street, all the press and Leave.eu decided to simultaneously blame Germany for negotiations breaking down.

Because that didn't look coordinated as fuck or anything.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 11, 2019, 03:51:04 PM
I am hopefully not speaking too soon but it looks like Boris is ready to throw the DUP under the bus and go for an NI only backstop.
It wont get through parliament but it did not take him long to get back to May's deal. There is the possibility this time that the EU could say "This deal or no extension" which instead would force the decision of no deal on the opposition.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 11, 2019, 05:17:45 PM
I mean, what use are the DUP any more? They're not exactly giving him a Parliamentary majority.

This is what happens when you try to use something as an excuse to do what you want to, but the situation changes.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 17, 2019, 04:18:23 PM
Boris has pulled out all the stops and secured a brand new Mays deal.
The EU have said no more extensions (though there are people who doubt that), but it might be shit or get off the pot time
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on October 17, 2019, 05:27:56 PM
Did I see something resembling a Backstop for NI?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 17, 2019, 06:38:59 PM
In all but name, and it is a good thing. Of course that means it wont get through, but at least he committed to it which I didn't think he would
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2019, 07:43:52 PM
This is just a slightly altered version of the May deal, isn't it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 17, 2019, 08:05:54 PM
Yes, and as a compromise it pleases no one so it wont get through. However there wont ever be a version without something like this, so it's basically this or no brexit
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 17, 2019, 08:10:21 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 17, 2019, 08:05:54 PM
Yes, and as a compromise it pleases no one so it wont get through. However there wont ever be a version without something like this, so it's basically this or no brexit

Well, from the UK's point of view.  The EU can just say "no more extensions," right?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 17, 2019, 09:21:30 PM
They have,I think they would grant one of push came to shove but  it would need a really good reason, like having the second ref already set in the calendar
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 17, 2019, 10:24:05 PM
The Financial Times is projecting this won't get past the Commons. The DUP's support is lost, and why would the opposition parties go for May Deal 2.0?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 17, 2019, 10:27:43 PM
The opposition will need to flip a few votes to get through, If they don't vote for it or repeal article 50 by the 31st no deal happens automatically, in which case it would be Labor and Lib dems responsible for no deal. If they are going to go for indi ref 2 or revoke they would want to do it soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 18, 2019, 12:36:24 AM
Quote from: Faust on October 17, 2019, 10:27:43 PM
The opposition will need to flip a few votes to get through, If they don't vote for it or repeal article 50 by the 31st no deal happens automatically, in which case it would be Labor and Lib dems responsible for no deal. If they are going to go for indi ref 2 or revoke they would want to do it soon.

The new agreement is No Deal for Britain anyway. There's no way a deal would be agreed in 12 months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 18, 2019, 08:01:08 AM
The transition could be extended and would be a lot easier once the NI problem is out of the way but yeah, transition should be two to three years from leave day
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 18, 2019, 12:57:12 PM
Notice how all the "no dealers" in the ERG are lining up behind this, however? I don't think they seriously intend to negotiate in good faith. They have significant financial incentives not to, in some cases.

Michael Gove also made it very clear the Tories intend to gut workers rights by refusing to comment on parity with EU rights, so Labour's vote is definitively lost (Kate Hoey aside, naturally).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 19, 2019, 03:44:28 PM
Letwin amendment passed.

MPs will actually now get more than 48 hours to scrutinise this deal. Assuming, of course, the EU grants the extension.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 19, 2019, 06:17:02 PM
Another extension is fine, labor wont vote for the deal now, not even some rebels
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: zlax on October 19, 2019, 08:33:41 PM
British press said:
QuoteElizabeth II's program must pass the approval procedure in Parliament, the legislators may well vote against it and start the procedure of vote of no confidence in the Cabinet of Ministers of Johnson. The last time such a precedent arose was almost 100 years ago, but the current situation in the parliament hints at a possible repetition of this.
But what was it 100 years ago that caused the vote of no confidence? The search for this information gave out that in Britain in 1924cc, this procedure was carried out twice. First, the Conservative prime minister was removed from power, and then the Liberal prime minister was removed. This is what led to the removal of the Liberal minister:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Письмо_Зиновьева
QuoteZinoviev's letter is a fake letter[1] attributed to the Chairman of the Comintern Grigory Zinoviev[2].
On July 25, 1924, the Scottish Communist John Campbell, deputy editor-in-chief of the "Workers Weekly", published an "Open Letter to the Armed Forces"[3]. He was arrested, but was not imposed penalties (see en:Campbell Case). The conservative opposition dismissed the Labour government. Early general elections were announced.
On September 15, the British Foreign Office received from MI5 a copy of a secret letter signed by the Chairman of the Comintern Executive Committee, Grigory Zinoviev[3]. This letter was delivered to them by a resident of Riga[3]. In the letter, Zinoviev offered the English Communists to intensify subversive work in the army and navy, to train their own staff for the coming civil war[2].
On October 25, 4 days before the elections, this letter was published in the Daily Mail[3]. The Soviet Charge d'affaires in Great Britain, Christian Rakowski, received a note of protest from the British government[3]. Grigory Zinoviev stated that the letter was a forgery[3]. In the USSR, the search for the author of the letter began, and at a meeting of the Politburo on December 18 offered "the person who delivered the "letter of Zinoviev" to declare himself, and he was "guaranteed security and impunity"[3]. The letter was also signed by Arthur McManus, a representative of the English Communists, and Otto Kuusinen, one of the leaders of the Comintern, who also stated that they were not involved in the publication[3].
In November, a delegation of British trade unions arrived in Moscow and published a report stating that it had studied the minutes of the Comintern Executive Committee meetings and found no signs of anti-English activity. Perhaps the delegation's report was influenced by the fact that, prior to the British visit, documents on the preparation of the world revolution were removed from the archives, but these documents concerned Germany and Bulgaria, not England[3].
It is believed that because of the publication of this letter in the elections, the conservatives (the leader was Stanley Baldwin) defeated the Labourists[2]. As a result, the general and trade agreements signed on 8 August between the USSR and the James McDonald government were not ratified.
In 1928, again in opposition, Baldwin and his fellows raised the subject of writing again. On March 19, 1928 Baldwin gave a speech in Parliament and brought some newly discovered "mystical circumstances" of the appearance of the letter: again rejecting the previous investigation. The People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the USSR Chicherin harshly answered on pages of the Soviet press. The British government, understanding that the fact of forgery would be established, refused to investigate the authenticity of the document. However, after a new spiral of scandal, British officials in the United Kingdom began to make less and less reference to the letter, and doubts about its authenticity were increasingly voiced in Labour and liberal circles[4].
The author of the forgery - the White émigré Sergei Druzhilovsky - was exposed in 1925 by publications of the newspaper "Rote Fane" and expelled from Germany. In 1926 he was arrested after the illegal crossing of the Latvian-Soviet border and was sentenced to death by the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the USSR in an open trial in Moscow[5]. At the same time, a documentary book "Anti-Soviet forgeries: History of forgeries. The facsimile and comments"[6]. The organizer of the scandalous provocation was the British spy and close friend of Winston Churchill, Major Desmond Morton[7].
The original letter was discovered in 1965, which resulted in the investigation book "Letter of Zinoviev", written by three journalists of the British newspaper "The Sunday Times". In February 1968, the same newspaper published articles related to the discovery of photocopies of Zinoviev's manuscript in the archives of Harvard University. Graphological analysis done by the expert John Conway showed that the "letter" belonged to the scout Sidney Reilly, who was also involved in the fabrication of the fake [5].
At the end of the 20th century, Robin Cook, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the government of Tony Blair, ordered the opening of some archives; it turned out that the letter was handed over to the Riga residency by a Russian emigrant from Berlin, who earned money by creating such forgeries [3]. The question was studied by Dr. Jill Bennett[8].

That's understandable. The reason for the resignation of the Liberal Prime Minister was a fake letter. But i was unable to find information about what exactly became the reason for the resignation of the conservative Prime Minister.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_votes_of_no_confidence_in_British_governments#Defeat_of_the_Baldwin_ministry
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 19, 2019, 09:03:37 PM
Baldwin? He called an early election to get support for his protectionist trade policy and while in theory the Tories "won", they returned in such weakened numbers that the Liberal and Labour opposition had the numbers to vote down the King's Speech, the proposed legislative agenda of Parliament. Unable to control Parliament, a vote of no confidence was held and he offered his resignation.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: zlax on October 19, 2019, 09:07:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 19, 2019, 09:03:37 PM
Baldwin? He called an early election to get support for his protectionist trade policy and while in theory the Tories "won", they returned in such weakened numbers that the Liberal and Labour opposition had the numbers to vote down the King's Speech, the proposed legislative agenda of Parliament. Unable to control Parliament, a vote of no confidence was held and he offered his resignation.
Protectionism is like Brexit. But that doesn't solve anything, the feudal lords in this realm do.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 19, 2019, 11:43:30 PM
So Boris has sent a letter to the EU, request an extension as per the Benn Act. However, he did not sign it.

He did, however, send two additional letters stating that he doesn't want a delay. This would appear to be an attempt to frustrate legislation, and thus per the Padfield principle, unconstitutional.

I hope none of the Supreme Courts are busy come Monday.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 21, 2019, 09:51:43 AM
I would expect the EU to reject this or drag their feet until after the vote this week to help force it through.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 21, 2019, 06:19:21 PM
https://www.apnews.com/f1a602a355dc46e78ef31366845796a7

QuotePrime Minister Boris Johnson's plan to lead Britain out of the European Union at the end of this month hit another roadblock Monday when the speaker of the House of Commons rejected his attempt to hold a new vote of lawmakers on his Brexit divorce deal.

The ruling by Speaker John Bercow plunged the tortuous Brexit process back into grimly familiar territory: grinding parliamentary warfare.

With just 10 days to go until the U.K. is due to leave the bloc on Oct. 31, Johnson's government was seeking a "straight up-and-down vote" on the agreement he struck last week with the 27 other EU nations.

The request came just two days after lawmakers voted to delay approving the Brexit deal. Bercow refused to allow it because parliamentary rules generally bar the same measure from being considered a second time during the same session of Parliament unless something has changed.

Bercow — whose rulings in favor of backbench lawmakers have stymied government plans more than once before — said the motion proposed by the government was "in substance the same" as the one Parliament dealt with on Saturday. He said it would be "repetitive and disorderly" to allow a new vote Monday.

On Saturday — Parliament's first weekend sitting since the 1982 Falklands War — lawmakers voted to make support for the Brexit deal conditional on passing the legislation to implement it.

Johnson's Conservative government will now go to its Plan B: get Parliament's backing for his Brexit blueprint by passing the legislation, known as the Withdrawal Agreement Bill. The government plans to publish the bill later Monday and hopes to have it become law by Oct. 31.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on October 21, 2019, 08:45:02 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 21, 2019, 09:51:43 AM
I would expect the EU to reject this or drag their feet until after the vote this week to help force it through.

EU apparently willing to grant extension to feb 2020.

The clear implication is that's plenty of time for a vote/referendum. Again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 21, 2019, 08:47:58 PM
Quote from: Junkenstien on October 21, 2019, 08:45:02 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 21, 2019, 09:51:43 AM
I would expect the EU to reject this or drag their feet until after the vote this week to help force it through.

EU apparently willing to grant extension to feb 2020.

The clear implication is that's plenty of time for a vote/referendum. Again.

Johnson's gonna shit.  He's gonna shit bricks.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on October 21, 2019, 09:06:26 PM
Just wait until there's a crisis or two to deal with.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 21, 2019, 10:45:02 PM
But the opportunity for another referendum was squandered the last time. I would hope the EU extension is conditional on that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on October 22, 2019, 08:00:46 PM
It's just got funnier.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 22, 2019, 08:08:02 PM
Quote from: Junkenstien on October 22, 2019, 08:00:46 PM
It's just got funnier.

Yeah?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstien on October 22, 2019, 08:18:43 PM
Brexit deal passed by 30, then timetable lost by 15. Legislation paused, new attempt to make it EU's fault/problem to excuse why the 31/10 exit won't happen.

Deal as is looks to get loved to death with ammendments for good measure. And there will be plenty of those.



....



The year is now 2209, The English ambassador makes the Bi-annual trip to Eurasia to request and extension to Brexit. The ritual words are uttered and everything continues. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 22, 2019, 08:26:19 PM
It

Can.

Always.

Get.

Funnier.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on October 22, 2019, 09:52:06 PM
The DUP also put on a show of trying to block decriminalisation of abortion in NI yesterday, https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1021/1084614-stormont-assembly-abortion/ .

There was never any chance for power sharing to be negotiated on the day, but this way the DUP can claim to their extra religious supporters that they tried, but Westminster forced the changes on them, while also removing the issues of abortion and marriage equality whenever the next election happens.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 22, 2019, 11:28:06 PM
Quote from: Junkenstien on October 22, 2019, 08:18:43 PM
Brexit deal passed by 30, then timetable lost by 15.
Holy shit, yes this will almost certainly get ammendements that either:
Make it incompatible with the EU (both sides need to match)
Make it unpalatable to the majority of MP's

That said, 30? I was expect 1-2 at best Where did all the other votes come from?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 22, 2019, 11:30:01 PM
Quote from: Magpie on October 22, 2019, 09:52:06 PM
The DUP also put on a show of trying to block decriminalisation of abortion in NI yesterday, https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1021/1084614-stormont-assembly-abortion/ .

There was never any chance for power sharing to be negotiated on the day, but this way the DUP can claim to their extra religious supporters that they tried, but Westminster forced the changes on them, while also removing the issues of abortion and marriage equality whenever the next election happens.

This is something to celebrate, the fact that NI now has the same rights for its citizens as the rest of both Ireland and the UK (for some reason NI was caught in a time vortex of the 1950's).
If Boris wants to punish the DUP further, the next one is the Irish Language act.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 23, 2019, 02:19:43 AM
Quote from: Faust on October 22, 2019, 11:28:06 PM
Quote from: Junkenstien on October 22, 2019, 08:18:43 PM
Brexit deal passed by 30, then timetable lost by 15.
Holy shit, yes this will almost certainly get ammendements that either:
Make it incompatible with the EU (both sides need to match)
Make it unpalatable to the majority of MP's

That said, 30? I was expect 1-2 at best Where did all the other votes come from?

Chunk of Labour, no dup, both times.

And yes, some of those voted yes with explicit intention to love it to death. Next read will be much slimmer if it even passes, "pause" serves a bunch of other purposes like replace bercow, give the rags a few days to convince everyone it's done, push an election again when that fucks up etc.

What's really scary was the timetable margin. Basically 50% of mps displaying utter unfitness for any power beyond a milk float. And that's a push in some cases too.

Give grayling a fucking milk round and he will return with magic beans and £100 million debt. On a good day.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 24, 2019, 09:34:05 PM
Any one else watching the tantrum?

https://www.apnews.com/d9d6892645074e5da3091a03618805e8

Cain, what is your best guess at the results of a Dec 12th election?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 24, 2019, 09:41:04 PM
If there was one, the polls suggest a Tory win, but very likely a hung Parliament.

But I don't think Labour are going to vote for it. The scuttlebutt from tonight's emergency Shadow Cabinet meeting is to tell Boris to shove it.

Edit: even better, they've told him they will do it, but only if he takes No Deal Brexit off the table. That is as good as telling him to shove it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 24, 2019, 11:49:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 24, 2019, 09:41:04 PM
If there was one, the polls suggest a Tory win, but very likely a hung Parliament.

But I don't think Labour are going to vote for it. The scuttlebutt from tonight's emergency Shadow Cabinet meeting is to tell Boris to shove it.

Edit: even better, they've told him they will do it, but only if he takes No Deal Brexit off the table. That is as good as telling him to shove it.

Fucker thought this PM thing would be easy.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 25, 2019, 08:21:51 AM
Why anyone would want to be PM with Brexit undecided is beyond me. I think I've used this analogy before, but it's like being voted to clean up the mess after a massive party, only everyone has already buggered off. And there's vomit in the carpet, someone tried to set fire to the bathroom and the fish from the backyard pond have been left frying on the cooker.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 25, 2019, 10:47:25 AM
Boris is now throwing a hissy fit of epic proportions. He is going to do the UK equivalent of a US government shutdown. Minimal amount of work in Parliament. No budget being put forward. Asking every day to hold a vote on a General Election.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 25, 2019, 01:02:51 PM
A government shutdown. Well Arlene would be happy, makes NI consistent with the rest of the UK.
No government for all
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 25, 2019, 01:11:03 PM
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/74235543_10157620655399393_5014106204746547200_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQka00PPh_jQJEAOYGtDI5jnjmGXs-TlMKNsfyXm8NkfOpNLhPRUGZYAGaJMosZKGts&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=ac132f0ee760bd2f907509dcfd524e73&oe=5E1D2917)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 25, 2019, 07:22:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 22, 2019, 08:26:19 PM
It

Can.

Always.

Get.

Funnier.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on October 25, 2019, 10:55:58 PM
This reminds me of that time I was like, five, still recovering from a traumatic head injury, and my dad was driving us home from the beach, drunk as a skunk, my mom said something he didn't like so he backhanded her five times in the face, getting blood everywhere, then jerked the wheel side to side with the pedal to the floor screaming "GODDAMNIT! I'LL KILL US ALL!!!", except in slow motion.

Good times.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Bruno on October 26, 2019, 04:17:51 AM
That sounds like something that a lot of things would remind you of.

With alarming frequency.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on October 26, 2019, 05:10:19 AM
Yo, you know Deez?

PTSDEEZ NUTZ IN YA MOUF!

EDIT: Every day was an adventure in darkness. It would've been nice to have a happy, soothing environment to heal in, but did I get that? No. I got something like Mad Max: Fury Road. I'm not bitter, I'm past that point. I'm a pickled pickle.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 27, 2019, 10:38:28 AM
Here comes the Lib Dem knife in the back.

QuoteBoris Johnson has been offered a route to securing the pre-Christmas election that he has been seeking, through a plan that would only require the support of a simple majority of MPs.

With most Labour MPs still against the idea of a snap election, the prime minister looks set to lose his bid to secure a December poll on Monday in a vote that requires the backing of two-thirds of MPs. Other parties are also opposing an election until the EU has granted a three-month Brexit delay, although the DUP hinted on Saturday it could back the move.

However, in a sign that the coalition opposed to an election is under strain, the Liberal Democrats have drawn up a plan allowing Johnson to secure a December poll with a simple majority of MPs, with the support of Jo Swinson's party and the SNP.

Under the one-page Lib Dem bill, the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act would be amended to state that the next election would take place on 9 December, three days earlier than under Johnson's plans. It states that the new election date would be cancelled should the EU fail to grant a three-month Brexit extension.

Sure, give Johnson what he wants, rather than making him water down his Brexit deal into something that might actually pass Parliament. That'll work out great, when he returns with a No Deal Brexit ironclad majority.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 27, 2019, 10:12:20 PM
Swindon wanting to move election date to the 9th to pick up more student votes makes me giggle. The country has had an aging population for decades. There's a reason tories target 50+ voters and that's simply because there's more of the fuckers. Chasing a minority slice of the vote again to remain a minority party when your conference aim was outright majority.... Words fail me.

Can't wait for the next coalition shit show.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 28, 2019, 07:48:18 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on October 25, 2019, 07:22:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 22, 2019, 08:26:19 PM
It

Can.

Always.

Get.

Funnier.

So, no exit on Thurs,  acceptance of extension means no renegotiation of WAB, so deal is deal and can't really change. Which is a shame as its a bit shit to say the least. Initial election call denied, no plan from defuckwit to do anything other than try again.

I've not seen bookies odds on him being a Christmas suicide yet, but when your whole family and half the country hate your useless lying arse, I'd make sure you have the samaritans on speed dial.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 28, 2019, 07:56:34 PM
I've just been looking at it from the Irish perspective, once it ticked the NI issue I was satisfied but I haven't really considered the rest of it. Would remaining or closer be better than this?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 29, 2019, 09:19:11 PM
Another election.

This included, we've now had four national votes in five years.

I'm predicting the Tories get in with a slim majority, then give is the hardest Brexit possible.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 29, 2019, 09:21:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 29, 2019, 09:19:11 PM
Another election.

This included, we've now had four national votes in five years.

I'm predicting the Tories get in with a slim majority, then give is the hardest Brexit possible.

That is my gut feeling, too.  The hard brexit thing, I mean.

It wouldn't be England if it wasn't drunk and fucking the neighbor's dog pig's head.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 29, 2019, 10:12:25 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 29, 2019, 09:19:11 PM
Another election.

This included, we've now had four national votes in five years.

I'm predicting the Tories get in with a slim majority, then give is the hardest Brexit possible.

Lib-dem coalition 2, Brexit boogaloo.

Just watch them sell everyone out again for a taste of power and all the blame. Swinson was heavily involved in the first go and 85%ish of what she comes out with makes me think its stupid enough to happen.

Faust re deal: it's literally mays with a fuck about bit of nonsense for Ireland which is pretty much ignoring one of mays red lines. It gives an essentially non UK status to ni which are why the dup are up in arms (possibly to get another billion quid while they can.) mays deal was also crap irrespective of the backstop bollocks anyway, that was just the easiest bit for the erg to latch on to to get rid of May and install defuckwit. With an election, their 10ish votes become even less relevant and ni gets to be ignored and forgotten about again.

With the snp almost sure to claim Scotland, getting rid of both from the UK seems not only to be an acceptable price but also a fucking preference for this band of shitrags.



Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 29, 2019, 10:18:05 PM
Also, the real fun will start when people remember what the first past the post system can produce. Like winners with less than 20% of the vote share. "aaaaaarrgghhhhh Xmas riots" sounds like a mail headline before the year end.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 29, 2019, 10:30:53 PM
There's also the bit where this deal strips out all the bits about workers rights and keeping parity with the EU post-Brexit.

It's actually a shittier version of May's deal in every respect.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 29, 2019, 11:39:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 29, 2019, 10:30:53 PM
There's also the bit where this deal strips out all the bits about workers rights and keeping parity with the EU post-Brexit.

It's actually a shittier version of May's deal in every respect.

Can't you guys just go full Oliver Cromwell and call it a day?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 30, 2019, 12:27:44 AM
That would require decision making and leadership of which there is none from any direction.
Junkenstien, NI actually approve of the backstop, businesses are crying out for it, it's only the DUP who see it as creating new division within the UK.

Prediction, tories pick up 3-5 seats in England, lose 12 in Scotland, labour lose 5-10 to Brexit party. DUP lose 2 seats to UUP.

In the event Boris gets enough seats to try and force no deal he loses the rebels again, the current deal instead passes.
In the event no deal happens, the UK will immediately want to start micro deals to allow a managed no deal.
The EU will refuse and instead point the UK at the ticking clock of Open skies, Euratom and the ISEM  which have 9 months, 6 months and 6 months respectively from no deal day 1.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 30, 2019, 01:58:50 PM
Remember though, Boris lost his majority only because he expelled 20 MPs from the party (10 have been subsequently allowed back in, on the condition they vote for his deal).

There is a very strong likelihood he will win all 20 of those seats back. And then it becomes a question of Con-Lab-Lib Dem marginal constituencies. The Lib Dems are polling high, and both they and the Brexit Party can act as spoilers in those marginals.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 30, 2019, 03:23:33 PM
He could get the deal through with a handful of labour rebels, DUP wont ever vote for it, I think they have realised the only condition that doesnt accelerate a united Ireland is remain.
It will be slim if he gets any majority at all, I still think he is going to lose most of the 13 seats in Scotland, so if he gets the gains it will need to come from labour and lib dem seats flipping
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 30, 2019, 03:45:57 PM
John Curtice has predicted there could be up to 100 MPs elected from neither Labour or the Tories in Parliament. That maths does favour Corbyn, in the sense of preventing a No Deal Brexit. In terms of creating a viable government...well, apparently that's not as important as Brexit, which is why we're having another election and not a second referendum.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 30, 2019, 07:06:39 PM
A minority government can work if everyone is working to a common goal. The only thing the opposition seem capable of is extensions, not even other referendum or placeholder PM.
I keep contrasting with Ireland and everyone is probably sick to death of me doing so but even before the vote in 2016 all parties met and decided what way they wanted to approach this, what to request of the EU etc. Its a minority government as well but all parties have foregone an election until after brexit is sorted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 30, 2019, 07:57:36 PM
The thing is coalition government is completely alien to the UK political way of thinking.

Consider Corbyn, he's been an MP since, what, 1983? In all of that time, we've had exactly one coalition government and one confidence-supply government, both in the last 4 years. The ability to work cross-party to compromise sounds, in theory, like it shouldn't be a problem, but in a system where everyone thinks it will be winner takes all and has worked in the system for decades with that in mind...to call it a culture shock would be polite understatement.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 30, 2019, 08:06:41 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 30, 2019, 07:06:39 PM
A minority government can work if everyone is working to a common goal. The only thing the opposition seem capable of is extensions, not even other referendum or placeholder PM.
I keep contrasting with Ireland and everyone is probably sick to death of me doing so

Naw, that's actually the most fascinating part of all of this.

The rest is just idiots beating their heads into a wall while screaming "self-determination".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on October 30, 2019, 08:35:14 PM
Irish politicians have to consider transfer votes, that probably does tone down the winner takes all aspect, Ireland has also only had 6 majority governments in the past 96 years.

It would be...interesting to see Boris attempt to negotiate support for a minority government from one on the other main parties when he couldn't even keep the 10 DUP MPs on side.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 31, 2019, 03:10:41 AM
Lib dem coalition I tells ye.

Swindon has gone full jesus and is throwing around campaign guff with "the next pm" on it.

Farage lives and is trying to make deals with the tories. Presumably using fear and threats as the actual mp candidates are laughable(Widdecombe) , incompetent(Widdecombe) or just a bit too far to the right of goebbels to do anything other than provide embarrassment (Widdecombe).

And she's one of the better ones in the field.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 31, 2019, 01:07:41 PM
Happy Brexit Day everyone!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on October 31, 2019, 09:41:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 31, 2019, 01:07:41 PM
Happy Brexit Day everyone!

(https://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/goblinhill/Woot%20Woot_zpsuqnsmwsd.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 01, 2019, 01:08:10 PM
Looks like Farage is still all in on a No Deal Brexit, he's called on Boris to ditch the deal or the Brexit Party will run against Tory candidates.

Given the Brexit Party is polling at around 13%, this is not an idle threat.

Meanwhile, Trump continues to interfere in our elections, telling everyone how bad Corbyn would be for us (and, given Trump's popularity in the UK, and the linkage between Boris, Trump and a trade deal that carves up the NHS, probably favours Corbyn).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 01, 2019, 02:39:19 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 01, 2019, 01:08:10 PM
Looks like Farage is still all in on a No Deal Brexit, he's called on Boris to ditch the deal or the Brexit Party will run against Tory candidates.

Given the Brexit Party is polling at around 13%, this is not an idle threat.

Meanwhile, Trump continues to interfere in our elections, telling everyone how bad Corbyn would be for us (and, given Trump's popularity in the UK, and the linkage between Boris, Trump and a trade deal that carves up the NHS, probably favours Corbyn).

Trump - on the advice of Miller - really, really wants the UK to be isolated with only the USA as a potential trade partner.  Steven Miller wants this so bad his little Nazi dick is hard.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 01, 2019, 04:19:28 PM
Oh yeah, I can believe it. You can usually do disaster capitalism on a multinational, sometimes an entire industry if it's distressed, or some third world country that's just been invaded/had a coup/been hit by tsunami.

But disaster captalism on a first world economy, on the 7th largest economy on the planet? With potentially everything up for grabs? Of course the US wants us with our backs to the wall, so we have to come to them cap in hand. Hundreds of billions in assets will be temporarily distressed and potentially up for grabs. It'd be the biggest firesale in the history of the world.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2019, 12:27:45 PM
10 Downing Street is sitting on an apparently explosive report regarding Russian interference in the 2016 referendum.

The Intelligence and Security Subcommittee, the former national security advisor and chair of the Joint Intelligence Committee, and the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, in addition to anonymous currently serving security officials have all said there is no need to delay release.

Well, unless you're Boris Johnson and it turns out segments of the Leave campaign were influenced, manipulated or promoted by Russian intelligence activities.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on November 05, 2019, 03:04:46 PM
The pro-wrestling shenanigans are pretty telling, considering this shit has all gone viral at once, also consider the cheeto complexion and other trends that have been big as of late. The fuck is this shit? It would be funny if it weren't fucking apocalyptic in scope. What failed fucking test tube did we get these sick babies from?

EDIT: Not to be racist, but never trust a fucking orange person.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 05, 2019, 05:13:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2019, 12:27:45 PM
10 Downing Street is sitting on an apparently explosive report regarding Russian interference in the 2016 referendum.

The Intelligence and Security Subcommittee, the former national security advisor and chair of the Joint Intelligence Committee, and the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, in addition to anonymous currently serving security officials have all said there is no need to delay release.

Well, unless you're Boris Johnson and it turns out segments of the Leave campaign were influenced, manipulated or promoted by Russian intelligence activities.

I am hardly shocked, but this could be funny.

What are the odds of the report leaking without Johnson wanting it leaked?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 05, 2019, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 05, 2019, 05:13:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 05, 2019, 12:27:45 PM
10 Downing Street is sitting on an apparently explosive report regarding Russian interference in the 2016 referendum.

The Intelligence and Security Subcommittee, the former national security advisor and chair of the Joint Intelligence Committee, and the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, in addition to anonymous currently serving security officials have all said there is no need to delay release.

Well, unless you're Boris Johnson and it turns out segments of the Leave campaign were influenced, manipulated or promoted by Russian intelligence activities.

I am hardly shocked, but this could be funny.

What are the odds of the report leaking without Johnson wanting it leaked?

Almost certain within 2 weeks.

It's also almost certain to make no difference to the results.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2019, 05:53:43 PM
The government leaks so much it might as well be a sieve, but at least part of that was aimed at getting Theresa May out.

Now, I'm not so sure. The kind of people calling for it to be released are the kind of people I would not normally suspect of leaking information. Grieve, for example.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 05, 2019, 08:19:55 PM
It's been completed and floating around since March, so I would guess a copy will be "found on a train" sooner rather than later. Defuckwit has more enemies than friends so it seems inevitable one will fuck him over.

Probably gove now I think on it, particularly now he's no longer needed he will be looking for the way to the top job.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2019, 01:14:31 PM
This was brutal (video at the link)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/dse1mq/james_cleverly_empty_chaired_after_refusing_to_go/
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on November 06, 2019, 03:10:39 PM
Damn, she just savaged the shit out of that dude. Sounds like he should've just sat in the chair and taken his lumps, jeez... or were they just THAT bad?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 06, 2019, 03:20:46 PM
Never argue without being there.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2019, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 06, 2019, 03:10:39 PM
Damn, she just savaged the shit out of that dude. Sounds like he should've just sat in the chair and taken his lumps, jeez... or were they just THAT bad?

It's hard to imagine how he could have made it any worse...but James Cleverly is a condescending and smarmy git, so he might have.

As the clip recounts, in the last few days alone the Tories have mocked people who burned to death in Grenfell, called Corbyn a Stalinist, doctored video evidence against a senior Labour MP, had someone stand down for being a rapist, had someone else not stand down despite calling for the poor to be sterilised...

And this is the first official day of the campaign.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 06, 2019, 04:41:47 PM
I vote for the empty chair.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 06, 2019, 05:53:08 PM
"I also wanted to ask him" just got funnier every time she said it. Her timing and deadpan delivery fucking priceless :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 06, 2019, 05:56:01 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 06, 2019, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 06, 2019, 03:10:39 PM
Damn, she just savaged the shit out of that dude. Sounds like he should've just sat in the chair and taken his lumps, jeez... or were they just THAT bad?

It's hard to imagine how he could have made it any worse...but James Cleverly is a condescending and smarmy git, so he might have.

As the clip recounts, in the last few days alone the Tories have mocked people who burned to death in Grenfell, called Corbyn a Stalinist, doctored video evidence against a senior Labour MP, had someone stand down for being a rapist, had someone else not stand down despite calling for the poor to be sterilised...

And this is the first official day of the campaign.

There's also the guy who ruined a rape trial and got thrown out of court.

Nasty party mindset alive and well.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2019, 06:02:30 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on November 06, 2019, 05:53:08 PM
"I also wanted to ask him" just got funnier every time she said it. Her timing and deadpan delivery fucking priceless :lulz:

Sky News is so much better now they're owned by Comcast, of all fucking people. I'm close to ranking them above BBC News, though they still fall well short of Channel 4 news.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 06, 2019, 07:28:17 PM
I guess it's also worth noting on the official day 1, of an election that's obviously been coming for months, no manifestos from anyone. Brexit party not even bothering at all. I know they're basically a list of lies, but even still, this is basic prep and pr and just serves to fully highlight how fucking useless literally everyone involved is.


Bercow also putting boot into Brexit and Boris now he's able to. Not unexpected, but nice to see.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 06, 2019, 07:35:33 PM
To be fair to the Brexit party, they're a bit busy doing last minute checks on their MP candidates, since some of them are Nazis, cult leaders and people who think they are in contact with off-world intelligences.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 07, 2019, 06:05:41 AM
Tom Watson out.

No tears shed here, waiting to see how many bother mentioning the moseley links. And cash. Sorry,  "donations".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2019, 09:00:21 AM
He's seeking solo opportunities to leak stories to the press.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2019, 10:35:42 AM
Oh the Lib Dems are also going to get 31% of the vote in Putney...where they have never won before...and got 7% of the vote last election...because a Yougov national poll filtered through a polling analysis agency (who objected to their national model being used for a single constituency as "misleading") says so.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 07, 2019, 01:33:10 PM
The green/plaid/ld pact thing is a cracking joke. Lofty ambitions utterly humbled in under a week. The adorable thing is that the greens really think they might get a second mp.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2019, 02:59:29 PM
Jo Swinson really is doing her damndest to try and prove every left-wing critic of the Lib Dems correct, isn't she?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2019, 04:39:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 07, 2019, 02:59:29 PM
Jo Swinson really is doing her damndest to try and prove every left-wing critic of the Lib Dems correct, isn't she?

What's up?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2019, 04:44:43 PM
https://apnews.com/dfefa8fbba8546fdb5df7377b782eece


Bercow having fun.

But does nobody in the UK own a comb?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2019, 06:05:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2019, 04:39:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 07, 2019, 02:59:29 PM
Jo Swinson really is doing her damndest to try and prove every left-wing critic of the Lib Dems correct, isn't she?

What's up?

She's defending her record as being involved in the Tory-Lib Dem coalition as being part of the national interest, in giving the UK a working government.

However, she's also categorically ruling out any kind of coalition with Labour, even if they are the largest party in Parliament after the election.

You may note a slight contradiction there.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2019, 06:27:37 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 07, 2019, 06:05:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 07, 2019, 04:39:09 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 07, 2019, 02:59:29 PM
Jo Swinson really is doing her damndest to try and prove every left-wing critic of the Lib Dems correct, isn't she?

What's up?

She's defending her record as being involved in the Tory-Lib Dem coalition as being part of the national interest, in giving the UK a working government.

However, she's also categorically ruling out any kind of coalition with Labour, even if they are the largest party in Parliament after the election.

You may note a slight contradiction there.

Gonna have to look her up on Wikipedia.  She looks like a barrel of laughs.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2019, 06:35:51 PM
This covers her greatest hits. Businesses uber alles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Swinson#Business_Minister_(2012%E2%80%932015)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on November 08, 2019, 12:35:20 AM
Article 54 presents: The Hustle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_14v8TChuE).

Quote
A shining disco symphony for the dark days of Brexit.
Features three years worth of total bullshit, set to music.
It's the musical antidote you never imagined, for the crisis you never wanted.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 10, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
The Times has seen some of the Russia report. While it's behind a paywall, here's the article:

QuoteNine Russian business people who gave money to the Conservative Party are named in a secret intelligence report on the threats posed to UK democracy which was suppressed last week by Downing Street.

Oligarchs and other wealthy Tory donors were included in the report on illicit Russian activities in Britain by the cross-party intelligence and security select committee (ISC), whose publication was blocked by No 10.

Some Russian donors are personally close to the prime minister. Alexander Temerko, who has worked for the Kremlin's defence ministry and has spoken warmly about his "friend" Boris Johnson, has gifted more than £1.2m to the Conservatives over the past seven years.

MPs on the ISC, which conducted an 18-month inquiry, were also briefed on Alexander Lebedev, the former KGB spy in London whom the last Labour government allowed to buy the London Evening Standard newspaper.

Lebedev's son Evgeny invited Johnson when he was foreign secretary to parties at the family's converted castle near Perugia, Italy. The future prime minister apparently travelled without the close-protection police officers that normally accompany senior ministers of state during the trip in April 2018.

The largest Russian Tory donor is Lubov Chernukhin, the wife of Vladimir Chernukhin, a former ally of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. She paid £160,000 in return for a tennis match with Johnson and has donated more than £450,000 in the last year alone.

Britain's intelligence agencies are understood to be "furious" at the delay in releasing the report because measures to protect sensitive information have already been taken.

It is not known whether the Tory donors are named in the public section of the report, or whether they have been included in its confidential annex, which will remain classified indefinitely.

The government's argument that it needs more time to redact information has been dismissed by the former cabinet secretary Lord Butler, Lord Ricketts, a former national security adviser, and Lord Anderson, the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation.

Last week, Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, told MPs the delay was "utterly unjustifiable, unprecedented and clearly politically motivated". She added: "I fear it is because they realise that this report will lead to other questions about the links between Russia and Brexit and the current leadership of the Tory party, which risks derailing their election campaign. What is Downing Street so worried about?"

Thornberry also raised a whistleblower's claims regarding "relationships" that Johnson's chief adviser, Dominic Cummings, made during the "mysterious three years he spent in post-communist Russia". She said the Downing Street chief of staff allegedly met Vladislav Surkov, who is known as the "grey cardinal" of the Kremlin and has close links to Russia's security agencies.

In the Commons, Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, said last week that he would not comment on security clearances, but denied the "insinuation" that No 10 was "in the grip of a Kremlin mole".

In a letter to Thornberry last week, Sir Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, also did not deny the unusual arrangement. "Classified information, especially intelligence, is made available only to those with the appropriate security clearance," he wrote. "This applies to Mr Cummings and his access is appropriate for someone in his role."

A Conservative Party spokesman said: "We cannot speculate on what may or may not be in a leaked parliamentary report."

Andrew Gwynne, a Labour parliamentary candidate, said: "Billionaires fund the Conservative Party, so this sordid cover-up shouldn't be surprising. The Tories blocked this report and oppose tax transparency so their billionaire backers can continue to rip us off unchallenged.

"Labour is on the side of the many, not the few, so we'll get dirty money out of politics, introduce an oligarch levy and take on the vested interests selling out our people and public services."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 11, 2019, 02:02:54 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 10, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
The Times has seen some of the Russia report. While it's behind a paywall, here's the article:

QuoteNine Russian business people who gave money to the Conservative Party are named in a secret intelligence report on the threats posed to UK democracy which was suppressed last week by Downing Street.

Oligarchs and other wealthy Tory donors were included in the report on illicit Russian activities in Britain by the cross-party intelligence and security select committee (ISC), whose publication was blocked by No 10.

Some Russian donors are personally close to the prime minister. Alexander Temerko, who has worked for the Kremlin's defence ministry and has spoken warmly about his "friend" Boris Johnson, has gifted more than £1.2m to the Conservatives over the past seven years.

MPs on the ISC, which conducted an 18-month inquiry, were also briefed on Alexander Lebedev, the former KGB spy in London whom the last Labour government allowed to buy the London Evening Standard newspaper.

Lebedev's son Evgeny invited Johnson when he was foreign secretary to parties at the family's converted castle near Perugia, Italy. The future prime minister apparently travelled without the close-protection police officers that normally accompany senior ministers of state during the trip in April 2018.

The largest Russian Tory donor is Lubov Chernukhin, the wife of Vladimir Chernukhin, a former ally of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. She paid £160,000 in return for a tennis match with Johnson and has donated more than £450,000 in the last year alone.

Britain's intelligence agencies are understood to be "furious" at the delay in releasing the report because measures to protect sensitive information have already been taken.

It is not known whether the Tory donors are named in the public section of the report, or whether they have been included in its confidential annex, which will remain classified indefinitely.

The government's argument that it needs more time to redact information has been dismissed by the former cabinet secretary Lord Butler, Lord Ricketts, a former national security adviser, and Lord Anderson, the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation.

Last week, Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, told MPs the delay was "utterly unjustifiable, unprecedented and clearly politically motivated". She added: "I fear it is because they realise that this report will lead to other questions about the links between Russia and Brexit and the current leadership of the Tory party, which risks derailing their election campaign. What is Downing Street so worried about?"

Thornberry also raised a whistleblower's claims regarding "relationships" that Johnson's chief adviser, Dominic Cummings, made during the "mysterious three years he spent in post-communist Russia". She said the Downing Street chief of staff allegedly met Vladislav Surkov, who is known as the "grey cardinal" of the Kremlin and has close links to Russia's security agencies.

In the Commons, Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, said last week that he would not comment on security clearances, but denied the "insinuation" that No 10 was "in the grip of a Kremlin mole".

In a letter to Thornberry last week, Sir Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, also did not deny the unusual arrangement. "Classified information, especially intelligence, is made available only to those with the appropriate security clearance," he wrote. "This applies to Mr Cummings and his access is appropriate for someone in his role."

A Conservative Party spokesman said: "We cannot speculate on what may or may not be in a leaked parliamentary report."

Andrew Gwynne, a Labour parliamentary candidate, said: "Billionaires fund the Conservative Party, so this sordid cover-up shouldn't be surprising. The Tories blocked this report and oppose tax transparency so their billionaire backers can continue to rip us off unchallenged.

"Labour is on the side of the many, not the few, so we'll get dirty money out of politics, introduce an oligarch levy and take on the vested interests selling out our people and public services."

Holy shit.  That's pretty blatant.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 12, 2019, 05:00:42 PM
So I hear that Labour got DDOSed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 12, 2019, 06:04:35 PM
In the same day, it's been reported that the Prime Minister's office tried to censor the names of Tory part donors in the Russian intereference report.

It's 2016 all over again.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 12, 2019, 06:08:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 12, 2019, 06:04:35 PM
In the same day, it's been reported that the Prime Minister's office tried to censor the names of Tory part donors in the Russian intereference report.

It's 2016 all over again.

This is like Tammany Hall on crack.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 12, 2019, 06:50:41 PM
Fortunately we have some rules that even Prime Ministers still have to follow:

QuoteAccording to Whitehall sources close to the ISC, with detailed knowledge of how it operates, Number 10 or senior ministers can order the redaction of names only if publication is regarded a matter of national security.

    One source said: "If it is simply politically inconvenient or embarrassing for Number 10 or the Conservative Party that individuals are named in a controversial report, that cannot be an official reason to issue an order that names be covered up.

    "However if Downing Street does genuinely believe these names represent a security risk, then the importance of this report and the need for its immediate publication has just grown."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 15, 2019, 09:10:28 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJXemPrWoAAtoM6?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 17, 2019, 12:24:17 PM
The latest Sunday Times article on the still unreleased Russian interference dossier (no link because it's paywalled anyway):

QuoteRussian interference may have had an impact on the Brexit referendum, but the effect was "unquantifiable", according to a parliamentary report suppressed by No 10.

The report by the cross-party intelligence and security committee (ISC ) into illicit Russian activities in Britain could not say if it had affected the result of the 2016 vote.

Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, said the disclosure raised "serious questions" about the safeguards in place for the general election next month.

"If it is correct that our security services have been unable to reach a conclusion about the extent or impact of Russian interference in the 2016 referendum, then it raises serious questions which require serious answers," she said.

"Boris Johnson therefore needs to clear up the confusion, spin and speculation around this ISC report by publishing it in full at the earliest opportunity. If not, people will rightly continue to ask: what is he trying to hide from the British public and why?"

The ISC's 18-month study of alleged Russian interference in the referendum is understood to have criticised British intelligence services for failing to devote enough resources to tackling threats from Vladimir Putin's regime.

Anti-EU articles disseminated by such Kremlin-sanctioned media outlets as RT and Sputnik in the run-up to the referendum campaign are cited in the report. Social media analysis that was presented to the digital, culture, media and sport committee last year revealed that articles published by the Russian sites had four times more social media impact before the Brexit vote than the official leave campaigns.

More than 260 articles posted by RT and Sputnik in the six months prior to the referendum were shared so widely on Twitter that they could have been seen up to 134m times.

By comparison, tweets from Vote Leave and Leave.eu — the two biggest pro-Brexit campaign groups — generated potential impressions of 33m and 14m.

Intelligence officials who have either seen or been briefed on the document said: "The government's refusal to publish the report has been very damaging to the British intelligence community, because it suggests that we have something major to cover up."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 18, 2019, 05:58:06 PM
If the punchline to all of this is essentially that rt caused Brexit I'm never going to stop laughing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 18, 2019, 06:41:14 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 18, 2019, 05:58:06 PM
If the punchline to all of this is essentially that rt caused Brexit I'm never going to stop laughing.

I wonder who was paying Johnson's bills in Brussels?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 18, 2019, 06:46:24 PM
Looks like Johnson found a woman that was ambitious enough to sleep with him.

https://apnews.com/ee6f17e1b343445b9c28132437d01f40

That's a lot of ambition.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2019, 02:26:57 PM
Well, she was getting a lot of contracts for it.

In other news Aaron Banks (former UKIP financier, Leave.eu financier, cingingely self-described as the "bad boy of Brexit") had his Twitter DMs hacked and passed onto the Guardian.

Nothing else is known as of yet, but Andy Wigmore can be seen losing his shit on Twitter currently, so it could be good.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Fujikoma on November 19, 2019, 04:27:45 PM
She's also upset he blocked her and isn't returning her calls like some kind of fling or one night stand. Shame on him.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 19, 2019, 04:32:46 PM
Looking at the content of some of those tweets...

If you are going to commit surreptitious business, please dont do it in twitter DM's. I am insulted at the incompetence of the conspiracy, we used to have better villains
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 19, 2019, 04:34:55 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 19, 2019, 04:32:46 PM
Looking at the content of some of those tweets...

If you are going to commit surreptitious business, please dont do it in twitter DM's. I am insulted at the incompetence of the conspiracy, we used to have better villains

The problem is the quality of victims.  We do not demand a better villain, so the market will not invest in a better villain.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 19, 2019, 08:41:05 PM
First live debates ongoing. A mute with a Mr T. In your pocket device could and would do better. "shuddup fool" is more substantial than any answer given so far.

If corbyn had the balls to attack properly, just once, this could have been a real boost. Shame he either can't or won't. Nicollo is screaming at them both from the grave for just being so fucking inept.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 19, 2019, 08:42:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 19, 2019, 04:34:55 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 19, 2019, 04:32:46 PM
Looking at the content of some of those tweets...

If you are going to commit surreptitious business, please dont do it in twitter DM's. I am insulted at the incompetence of the conspiracy, we used to have better villains

The problem is the quality of victims.  We do not demand a better villain, so the market will not invest in a better villain.

Real villas have been subject to austerity measures so we now just get shit that scooby doo rejected for being juvenile.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2019, 02:06:28 AM
So somehow Scotland is the sane one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=134&v=S-FT3W-rXsA&feature=emb_logo
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on November 20, 2019, 02:09:57 AM
That was a fucking beautiful song. Where did you find it?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2019, 02:14:39 AM
Quote from: nullified on November 20, 2019, 02:09:57 AM
That was a fucking beautiful song. Where did you find it?

On a stand alone political BBS.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/forum.php

Do you see what I've been reduced to during my stint in FB jail?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on November 20, 2019, 02:16:42 AM
 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Prison mentality is a scary thing. One day you'll realize you don't want to be out of FB jail. You won't know how to reintegrate to FB society. Then you find yourself shanking an old lady for being a TERF and history repeats.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2019, 02:25:39 AM
Quote from: nullified on November 20, 2019, 02:16:42 AM
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Prison mentality is a scary thing. One day you'll realize you don't want to be out of FB jail. You won't know how to reintegrate to FB society. Then you find yourself shanking an old lady for being a TERF and history repeats.

The guards just say "see you real soon".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 20, 2019, 09:30:24 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 19, 2019, 08:41:05 PM
First live debates ongoing. A mute with a Mr T. In your pocket device could and would do better. "shuddup fool" is more substantial than any answer given so far.

If corbyn had the balls to attack properly, just once, this could have been a real boost. Shame he either can't or won't. Nicollo is screaming at them both from the grave for just being so fucking inept.

That's the thing though, being seen as a boring beardy man works for Corbyn.

The media have spent a significant amount of time trying to declare him a screaming Marxist dictator in waiting. as per the below graph:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJqy62fWoAE9TMJ?format=png&name=small)
(source: Analysis by Loughborough University of positive/negative coverage of political parties in newspapers this election, weighted by circulation)

Being seen as a normal man saying normal, sensible things stands in stark contrast to both his negative reporting and to Boris Johnson's blundering idiocy
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 20, 2019, 09:34:17 AM
In other news, the Tory party did this yesterday (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/11/tories-conservative-party-cchq-factcheckuk-just-used-disinformation-trick-could-get-them-blocked-twitter?fbclid=IwAR1MRkJc2FtmTEGbaItfhU2vwhA20ocAqzq-1UMXLJsx4nevKIWAYvsdjS4)

(https://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/cropped_article_image/public/blogs_2019/11/untitled_design.png?itok=WEYDiU5g&c=a232b4f5c64df01673a3b5e0478f31a1)

QuoteThe Conservative Party's press office convincingly pretended to be a fact-checker on Twitter tonight, posting fake fact-checks nearly every minute of the ITV debate. There's no other way to introduce a piece of news that's this dire, nor to announce something so depressing for democracy. The party took their account @CCHQPress – a verified account for the Conservative Campaign Headquarters press office – and awarded it the name "factcheckUK", using a new profile picture, new header, and branded videos and GIFs to make it resemble a third-party organisation. It made no reference to the Conservative Party other than the handle's opaque acronym. 

QuoteAround 15 minutes after the debate concluded, CCHQ turned back into a pumpkin – reassuming its original Conservative Party branding and stating its true identity in its bio, as though nothing had ever happened. But while most political stunts tend to work in spite of any backlash, this case may be different. Twitter has suspended verified accounts for far less and beyond the social media site, there are legitimate arguments for the Electoral Commission to intervene. While CCHQ has performed a gross subversion of democracy, it may have given this country what it finally needs: a chance to crack down on social media usage by political parties and update its outdated laws for a new world.

Update: This article was amended on 20/11/2019 to reflect the fact that Twitter has decided to issue a warning rather than ban or unverify CCHQ. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2019, 02:33:24 PM
Of course they were only given a warning.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 20, 2019, 02:42:39 PM
Naturally, rules are for little people.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 21, 2019, 09:16:01 AM
 :lulz:

The Lib Dems are apparently planning to support Boris Johnson's plan and/or maybe a second Tory government...so long as they get a referendum with Remain on the ballot.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ22ANMXYAAdolq?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://i.imgur.com/0JNsIcb.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 21, 2019, 08:32:19 PM
What's awesome about all this is that I was just feeling a little discouraged by how provincial America is, then this thread reminds me that it's not just America, it's EVERYWHERE.

Which shouldn't make me feel better.  But it does.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 21, 2019, 09:01:34 PM
You have to love their logic here. They could support Labour and get either a soft-Brexit or remain with a winning referendum, all without any significant risk of no deal. Or they could side with the Tories and get a very significant risk of no deal if they lose any referendum, and a very bad deal if it does pass.

So of course they choose the latter option.

At least making Swinson the frontpage of their campaign is starting to backfire, as lots of voters are noting she's basically a Tory remainer (and squirrel killer).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 21, 2019, 09:16:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 21, 2019, 09:01:34 PM
(and squirrel killer).

???
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 21, 2019, 09:20:21 PM
Told you all. At least reality has beat her around the head a bit and she's stopped blithering about being pm. Theres more chance of sturgeon becoming pm than Swindon and would have way more mps to justify that too.

It's not done getting funnier either.

Labour housing pledge 100k new homes/year by 2024 - impossible pie in sky lunacy. Economically unviable. Etc.

Conservative housing pledge - 1million of same by 2025 - brave, visionary, easy etc.

Both are even more laughable as there will be fuck all done by anyone about this as its an election issue every time but not a big enough vote winner to bother doing anything about when in power.

It's taken 3 weeks to produce manifestos, still waiting on the tory lies, and there's not a single new creative lie to be seen. For shame on all concerned.

Also, yes Swindon famous for killing + eating squirrels in public. Its a country thing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 21, 2019, 09:26:03 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 21, 2019, 09:16:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 21, 2019, 09:01:34 PM
(and squirrel killer).

???

She hates them pleb bunnies (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jo-swinson-squirrels-shooting-stones-lib-dems-slingshot-fake-news-a9209196.html).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 26, 2019, 05:59:51 AM
Labour has had two different canvassers, both in their 70s, seriously assaulted while out canvassing

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/25/labour-condemns-attacks-on-two-canvassers-in-their-70s

QuoteLabour has condemned separate unprovoked attacks inflicted on two party activists in their 70s as they were out canvassing over the weekend.

The first incident occurred in Herefordshire on Saturday morning, while the second took place early the following evening in South Yorkshire. Police said a man had been arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm in relation to the second.

"These unprovoked attacks were completely unacceptable. Our thoughts are with those affected and we wish them a speedy recovery," said a Labour party spokesman. "We take the wellbeing and safety of our elected representatives, campaigners and activists extremely seriously and we have issued advice on safe campaigning and security."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 27, 2019, 03:29:50 PM
Today's revelations are that the Tories have been secretly negotiating with the US over the past two years over the NHS...which the Tories have repeatedly said was not on the table.

In addition to catching the Tories out in a blatant lie, this also shows the government effectively breaking the law - trade negotiations are illegal until we leave the EU.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 27, 2019, 03:51:04 PM
I think negotiations can happen but nothing can be signed until after the UK leaves the EU, it is strictly speaking not right, especially if the UK was to end up stuck in a transition for 10-15 years as it could negatively effect the EU's position to negotiate (which the UK would still be a member of).

I had heard the rumor that the US negotiators wont even meet the UK negotiations unless the NHS is part of the discussion as up for grabs, and that the Tories had tried to divert or side channel them, but they wouldn't be deterred, this will basically be the choice: Align with US regulation and way of doing things, or with the EU regulatory systems, the latter allows the UK more freedom in protecting its existing assets such as the NHS, as it stands the US is only one predatory nation that will want it's piece, the UK could effectively face a carve up, ironically it was one of the reasons for harmonised trade in the EU, the cumulative strength in negotiation allowed the EU to rebuff some (not all) of the US's requests (All drugs produced in europe unless explicitly just for sale in europe tend to still follow FDA rules).

In Ireland we had a similar situation, Irish Water was created as a state utility which the government hoped to auction off to private bodies, it was the straw that broke the camels back in the recession: it caused mass civil unrest, rogue builders physically removing water meters from all over the country, no one paying their bills. The opposition brought in a bill to protect the asset as a nationalised institution, we may even be looking at a referendum depending on who gets into government to enshrine it as a public asset which could not be undone by act of government.

Even in opposition I could see Labor being able to get enough cross party support to create a similar bill to protect the NHS if they wanted to, I'd even wager there would be enough tory rebels willing to get the same through.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 27, 2019, 04:02:13 PM
Yes, the US have insisted on full access and no mentions of global warming or related terms, as two key conditions of any trade talks.

The UK has negotiated a mutual recognition agreement with the US, but it seems like this was used as a cover for far more extensive talks about carving up the NHS by the US pharmaceutical lobby. Even at the time it was noted the talks were very focused on the pharma industry. But you're right, they can do the talks.

Still though, given that the NHS is the top priority of voters in this election....
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 27, 2019, 04:33:21 PM
Yeah if brexit has to happen it shouldn't sell out everyones future, hopefully someone like Farage or someone from the leave side will criticise them for this  and erode a base for a tory win
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 29, 2019, 05:22:35 PM
Apparent terrorist attack on London Bridge. Attacker armed with a knife, stabbed two people (one killed), then shot by counter-terrorism police.

Nothing more known at this time.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 29, 2019, 05:46:04 PM
Was apparently wearing a fake bomb vest, which is probably what triggered the shooting. Spin incoming.

Also, we've had defuckwit empty chaired and replaced with ice during leaders climate debate. He sent his dad and gove to represent him, which was denied leading to threats against the channel and its broadcast license. Classy.

Javid also refused 7 times to say if clearly racist anti Muslim rhetoric is unacceptable. Quisling would be proud.

And for fun the I has been bought by the daily mail group so now 8/10 papers will be able to tell you about corbyn meetings with mao and pol pot.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 30, 2019, 01:10:10 PM
It turns out the attacker, Usman Khan, had previously tried to blow up the Stock Exchange in 2012 and was released last year. He was tagged and going through a deradicalisation program as a condition of his release.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Juana on December 01, 2019, 03:12:38 AM
Does the program usually have a better turn out than, uh, that guy?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 01, 2019, 09:12:49 AM
Recidivism rates for convicted terrorists are, generally, much lower than they are for other crimes.

Though I haven't interrogated that data in any depth and I can imagine a number of specific factors that could have a significant outcome on that, it came via an academic I generally trust to know what he's talking about, so I'm inclined to say it's true regardless of some limiting circumstances.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Juana on December 01, 2019, 08:09:06 PM
Ah, thank you. I was just curious, so I appreciate it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 01, 2019, 08:53:41 PM
No worries, it's an interesting question.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on December 02, 2019, 01:57:07 AM
Having a quick look over the days headlines and quotes, I assume that "about 74" means "at least" 74 others in possible similar situations?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 02, 2019, 11:52:28 AM
I'm guessing so, but I'm not willing to read the Mail or Telegraph to find out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 02, 2019, 08:57:02 PM
Hear Cain now, believe him later.  [/Hans and Franz]

https://apnews.com/01194743767948599f8007b4da663255
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 02, 2019, 09:49:50 PM
The tories started with a polled 100+ seat lead when they announced the election, that has now narrowed to 35+
I think they would have had a more successful campeign if they had taken a vow of silence. Two weeks left for that margin to reach parity with Mays 2017 one and resuming of the mexican standoff.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 03, 2019, 12:23:30 AM
Well, they've only had 9 years to fix the law, obviously Labour is at fault here. And all those lost police officers due to cuts...well, they're no help anyway, right?

Notice they've kept Rees-Mogg away from the cameras since his Grenfell comments?

But this happens every time. Once the election fairness rules come into effect, Labour suddenly improve significantly in the polls. You'd think that would be a damning indictment of press bias in this country, but...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 03, 2019, 08:33:15 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2019, 12:23:30 AM
Well, they've only had 9 years to fix the law, obviously Labour is at fault here. And all those lost police officers due to cuts...well, they're no help anyway, right?

Notice they've kept Rees-Mogg away from the cameras since his Grenfell comments?

But this happens every time. Once the election fairness rules come into effect, Labour suddenly improve significantly in the polls. You'd think that would be a damning indictment of press bias in this country, but...
They even have the gall to say there is an anti Tory bias in the media when this is the only time you dont see the exclusion of the other parties.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 03, 2019, 11:09:26 AM
Hey now, they've only got the Times, Express, Mail, Telgraph, Sun, Evening Standard and apparently the BBC on side.

Not anyone significant.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 10, 2019, 01:28:45 PM
This election is such a shower of bullshit.

Firstly, the story about the boy sleeping on a "bed" of coats? The bots are out in force (https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1204183081009262592), convincing the mainstream political journalists this didn't happen when it definitely did (https://twitter.com/demarionunn/status/1204190151041269765).

This comes on the back of what is clearly the case of the Tories concocting a fake story about one of their members being punched by a Labour activist and being uncritically repeated by the BBC, only for video evidence to emerge that this never happened (https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1204100056762265600).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 10, 2019, 05:11:17 PM
It's like the worst case scenario for them, I'm actually horrified that they keep trying to do the hospitals as the PR thing and then having these (possibly infrequent) failings of the system in every one.
There's still a couple of days in it, I give it until the end of tomorrow before Boris is photoed standing on an elderly woman face down in a hall, while he wears a top hat and spins a pocketwatch.

Meanwhile, the Tories cannot rely on the DUP again more for their deal (they will actively vote against), and if the numbers are slim enough the DUP will put labor into power as long as it results in no special treatment of NI, which means soft or no brexit, which means being tied to the EU rules. The lead they have at the moment better manifest, because I suspect they are going to have trouble forming a government
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 10, 2019, 05:24:11 PM
I have a sinking feeling it's going to be a Tory-Lib Dem coalition. They've already made it clear that they would support a referendum on Boris' horrible plan rather than Labour's completely sane one, and their London strategy is pretty cleary targeting Labour maginals over ones where it would be a Lib Dem vs Tory race.

My only hope is that in that scenario, if the numbers added up, the SNP would consider an electoral pact with Labour. Desperate times call for desperate measures and all that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 10, 2019, 05:31:54 PM
Oh god you are right. They push for second ref or cancel brexit, but the ballot wont even have multiple choices will it:
Remain
MayBoris deal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 10, 2019, 07:19:26 PM
Facebook advert stats on the election were released early today.

88% of Tory ads were misleading, practically any Lib Dem ad with a graph was considered misleading and...no Labour ads were considered misleading.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on December 10, 2019, 11:08:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 10, 2019, 07:19:26 PM
Facebook advert stats on the election were released early today.

88% of Tory ads were misleading, practically any Lib Dem ad with a graph was considered misleading and...no Labour ads were considered misleading.

WTF Labour! On what planet would telling the truth EVER be the way to electoral success. Sheesh.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 11, 2019, 02:40:11 PM
I was just looking at your polls.

What the hell is WRONG with the UK?  I expect this sort of brain damage from America, but not from England.  How on God's green Earth could anyone who doesn't live in a mansion vote tory?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 11, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
A three year campaign accusing Corbyn of doing everything short of eating puppies will have that effect. He supports the IRA, he's a Czech spy, he hates the Queen, he plans to nationalise your mum...on and on and the bullshit never ends.

The Tories also quickly realised in 2016 that once they delivered Brexit, the party would very likely fall apart. To avoid that, they've launched a massive culture war, very much like the Republicans, on pretty much every topic imaginable. One of the key aspects of the Tories electoral strategy in the north (normally a Labour stronghold) is to play up trans rights, not so subtle implication being weirdoes coming into the toilets to perv on your kids. And Boris has gone full National Front on some topics, complaining about how EU immigrants "don't integrate" into the UK.

None of this would matter so much, if not for the press being pretty uniformly against Corbyn. The Guardian, normally a stalwart Labour supporter, is very lukewarm on Corbyn because its writers and readers skew to a more centrist, middle-class demographic. The Mirror is unapologetically in Corbyn's corner, and Sky News, ITV, the Independent and Channel 4 seem to be giving Labour a fair shake, but against that you have an entire media establishment who hates Corbyn like poison.

Why?

Because Labour backs a second Levenson Inquiry into the culture, practices and ethics of the British press in addition to taxing their owners more.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 11, 2019, 04:31:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 11, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
A three year campaign accusing Corbyn of doing everything short of eating puppies will have that effect. He supports the IRA, he's a Czech spy, he hates the Queen, he plans to nationalise your mum...on and on and the bullshit never ends.

The Tories also quickly realised in 2016 that once they delivered Brexit, the party would very likely fall apart. To avoid that, they've launched a massive culture war, very much like the Republicans, on pretty much every topic imaginable. One of the key aspects of the Tories electoral strategy in the north (normally a Labour stronghold) is to play up trans rights, not so subtle implication being weirdoes coming into the toilets to perv on your kids. And Boris has gone full National Front on some topics, complaining about how EU immigrants "don't integrate" into the UK.

None of this would matter so much, if not for the press being pretty uniformly against Corbyn. The Guardian, normally a stalwart Labour supporter, is very lukewarm on Corbyn because its writers and readers skew to a more centrist, middle-class demographic. The Mirror is unapologetically in Corbyn's corner, and Sky News, ITV, the Independent and Channel 4 seem to be giving Labour a fair shake, but against that you have an entire media establishment who hates Corbyn like poison.

Why?

Because Labour backs a second Levenson Inquiry into the culture, practices and ethics of the British press in addition to taxing their owners more.


So they Hillary'ed him.

Also, what's amazing is that England automatically integrates people.  Even the French turned English after William the Bastard took over the joint.

Unless your are UKIP or some shit, and "integrate" means "be white" and "only eat parsnips".  Honestly, the reason I loved the UK when I used to get over there was that you had a few dozen cultures all mushed together for like the last 200 years.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 11, 2019, 04:47:20 PM
It does in fact mean "speak English and eat only parsnips"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELgesuHXYAAYrjd?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 11, 2019, 04:54:49 PM
The risk of this is that they are making a short term push for The Good Old Days with their brexit, less foreigners, more jobs etc that they wont be able to pay back later.

Its the same empty promise Trump made.
The difference is the worst cheeto in chief can do is squander 80 Bn and build some shitty chainlink.
Brexit however could be 80Bn a year from now on in a permanent economic wound, that's an optimistic view of what the world is likely to do to the UK economy in a moment of vulnerability.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 11, 2019, 05:28:43 PM
Meanwhile, this is what the "left-wing" Guardian is pushing, a day before the election

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELfXv3WXkAARCJX?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 11, 2019, 05:30:01 PM
It is in fact too much to ask, since the lib dems got tertiary syphilis.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 11, 2019, 05:34:52 PM
I'm old enough to remember when the press dunked on Russell Brand, for weeks on end, when he said something similar six or seven years ago.

Yet today, a bunch of centrist journalists have been lining up to go behind this article and bravely add #MeToo.

And I wouldn't even mind so much if they did endorse the Lib Dems, or the Greens. It would suggest they have political convictions that go beyond "centrist wankery from now until forever, or I'm throwing a wobbly and taking my ball home."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 12, 2019, 02:12:08 PM
Sometimes Corbyn almost looks like he's still alive.  It's spooky.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 12, 2019, 07:00:51 PM
Just consider this, then. Boris is Corbyn's junior, by 15 years.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 12, 2019, 08:18:17 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELlCPIoWkAA9XHz?format=png&name=large)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on December 12, 2019, 10:14:05 PM
Exit poll 80to 86 tory majority.

Wheeeeeee
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 12, 2019, 10:21:43 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/12/exit-poll-predicts-majority-for-boris-johnson-and-conservatives

Yup. Time to look at leaving the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 12, 2019, 11:34:50 PM
The exit polls are pretty accurate.

So what does this say: There is the support for the Tories, support for Brexit? Fatigue from Brexit (the get it over with lie has been believed)?

I am glad it wasn't a hung parliament, I am surprised with the result, best that can be hoped for now is he follows through, first on NI, but if he is serious about a trade deal with the EU by the end of 2020, then it will be entirely on EU terms which means the NHS wont be sold off, and the UK will still follow EU regulations (level playing field, medicines, food and energy).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 13, 2019, 04:34:59 AM
We're all fucked.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 13, 2019, 04:35:32 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 12, 2019, 10:21:43 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/12/exit-poll-predicts-majority-for-boris-johnson-and-conservatives

Yup. Time to look at leaving the country.

Standing invite is still open.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 13, 2019, 05:53:04 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on December 13, 2019, 04:35:32 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 12, 2019, 10:21:43 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/12/exit-poll-predicts-majority-for-boris-johnson-and-conservatives

Yup. Time to look at leaving the country.

Standing invite is still open.

I'm strongly considering it. Especially when the alternative is watching "Berxit" get done on a ground level.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on December 13, 2019, 01:23:34 PM
Sorry to hear about your cat's penis country losing its damn mind.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 13, 2019, 02:53:55 PM
What the fuck is WRONG with people?  :crankey:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 13, 2019, 03:49:50 PM
What's really interesting is looking at the vote share.

Labour didn't do bad in terms of votes - it did significantly better than it did in 2005, 2010 and 2015, for example. However, the Tories managed to unite a Brexit vote (due to the media pretty much squelching the Brexit Party entirely) while the Lib Dems siphoned off Labour votes, but not in a way that led them to capture more seats.

On the plus side, Jo Swinson lost her own seat to the SNP, so that should mean we can say goodbye to the nasty squirrel killer once and for all.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 13, 2019, 04:02:47 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 13, 2019, 03:49:50 PM
What's really interesting is looking at the vote share.

Labour didn't do bad in terms of votes - it did significantly better than it did in 2005, 2010 and 2015, for example. However, the Tories managed to unite a Brexit vote (due to the media pretty much squelching the Brexit Party entirely) while the Lib Dems siphoned off Labour votes, but not in a way that led them to capture more seats.

On the plus side, Jo Swinson lost her own seat to the SNP, so that should mean we can say goodbye to the nasty squirrel killer once and for all.

SNP?

In any case, yeah, you guys got the 2016 Effect.  Lost of votes, but so geographically dispersed that any advantage is drowned out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 13, 2019, 04:08:31 PM
Scottish National Party.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 13, 2019, 04:40:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 13, 2019, 03:49:50 PM
What's really interesting is looking at the vote share.

Labour didn't do bad in terms of votes - it did significantly better than it did in 2005, 2010 and 2015, for example. However, the Tories managed to unite a Brexit vote (due to the media pretty much squelching the Brexit Party entirely) while the Lib Dems siphoned off Labour votes, but not in a way that led them to capture more seats.

On the plus side, Jo Swinson lost her own seat to the SNP, so that should mean we can say goodbye to the nasty squirrel killer once and for all.
The time for a coordinated remain effort was when parliament was sitting and they mostly squandered that, it's only fitting that they end up being their own road block in an election. First past the post isn't a proper representation of peoples wants, I would like to see the UK go for a proportional representation system but not a chance the Tories will be enacting it
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 13, 2019, 05:18:16 PM
I do grin slightly upon remembering that the Lib Dems voted for this general election. Well, they got what they asked for.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 13, 2019, 05:47:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 13, 2019, 05:18:16 PM
I do grin slightly upon remembering that the Lib Dems voted for this general election. Well, they got what they asked for.

Can we just call them the Green Party and call it a day?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 13, 2019, 11:02:57 PM
Centrist Greens. The worst kind. Because they'll look at a couple of Labour policies they don't like, then look at the Tories wrecking the country in pursuit of batshit insane ethno-nationalist politics and go "the truth is somewhere in the middle" rather than "the Tories are insane, perhaps we should suck it up and help Labour get into power, with our help, and moderate down their policies we dislike."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 17, 2019, 09:17:08 AM
WA is being voted on on Friday, I'm so sorry to everyone I know from the UK and my relatives over there, it looks like there is nothing can stop the out of control train now. The NI part of the WA was really important for everyone over here, but beyond that we are hoping Boris doesn't go for the regulatory bonfire and align the UK entirely with the US, that a close brexit to the EU would be good.

At least Mogg being sidelined is a silver lining, but a dim one at that
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 17, 2019, 10:09:08 AM
I'm just surprised they haven't given him a peerage and put him in the Cabinet.

I mean, it's good enough for Nicky Morgan and Zac "infamously Islamophobic London mayoral campaign" Goldsmith.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 17, 2019, 11:51:31 AM
True, they are probably annoyed he missed a trick and didn't throw some line in about bootstraps, if those that died in the fire had had the motivation to go out and work they would still be alive
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 17, 2019, 02:41:20 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 17, 2019, 09:17:08 AM

At least Mogg being sidelined is a silver lining, but a dim one at that

What happened to Mogg?

Also, the Express is the funniest reading in the UK right now.  They're slobbering all over themselves.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on December 17, 2019, 07:23:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 17, 2019, 10:09:08 AM
I'm just surprised they haven't given him a peerage and put him in the Cabinet.

I mean, it's good enough for Nicky Morgan and Zac "infamously Islamophobic London mayoral campaign" Goldsmith.

That is a load of bollocks because there is no such thing as Islamophobia - I read it in today's Jewish Chronicle

https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnists/don-t-fall-for-bogus-claims-of-islamophobia-1.494367

and for our US viewers the Jewish Chronicle is one of the major drivers behind the antisemitism in Labour shit

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 18, 2019, 05:28:04 AM
Quote from: MMIX on December 17, 2019, 07:23:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 17, 2019, 10:09:08 AM
I'm just surprised they haven't given him a peerage and put him in the Cabinet.

I mean, it's good enough for Nicky Morgan and Zac "infamously Islamophobic London mayoral campaign" Goldsmith.

That is a load of bollocks because there is no such thing as Islamophobia - I read it in today's Jewish Chronicle

https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnists/don-t-fall-for-bogus-claims-of-islamophobia-1.494367

and for our US viewers the Jewish Chronicle is one of the major drivers behind the antisemitism in Labour shit

I mean, Melanie Phillips would know. Why else would Anders Behring Breivik cite her in his manifesto?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on December 18, 2019, 01:22:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 18, 2019, 05:28:04 AM
Quote from: MMIX on December 17, 2019, 07:23:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 17, 2019, 10:09:08 AM
I'm just surprised they haven't given him a peerage and put him in the Cabinet.

I mean, it's good enough for Nicky Morgan and Zac "infamously Islamophobic London mayoral campaign" Goldsmith.

That is a load of bollocks because there is no such thing as Islamophobia - I read it in today's Jewish Chronicle

https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnists/don-t-fall-for-bogus-claims-of-islamophobia-1.494367

and for our US viewers the Jewish Chronicle is one of the major drivers behind the antisemitism in Labour shit

I mean, Melanie Phillips would know. Why else would Anders Behring Breivik cite her in his manifesto?

Homeopathic antisemitism? I just hope Jezza is having a bit of a laugh about it. He's had a pretty shitty week, after a pretty shitty couple of years. I looked up the original Phillips article that Breivik cited in his nutjob murderfesto. I had to unadblock the Daily Wail to do it. Jeebus H Christ, its pure great replacement crap. Wow I knew that the Wail was demented but just wow. [and yes Ive turned the adblocker back on - and yes I feel dirty]
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 18, 2019, 03:54:20 PM
Well, of course antisemitism is fine so long as you use the words "cultural Marxism" a lot and also blame the Muslims at the same time.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on December 18, 2019, 04:24:50 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 18, 2019, 03:54:20 PM
Well, of course antisemitism is fine so long as you use the words "cultural Marxism" a lot and also blame the Muslims at the same time.

<hollow laughter>
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 18, 2019, 04:45:14 PM
I just read that article, and it sounds just like the way Franklin Graham talks about how the USA and Christianity are "inseparable".


Also, "Don't hate on our religion, go hate on those OTHER MOTHERFUCKERS."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 19, 2019, 05:18:00 AM
Quote from: MMIX on December 18, 2019, 04:24:50 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 18, 2019, 03:54:20 PM
Well, of course antisemitism is fine so long as you use the words "cultural Marxism" a lot and also blame the Muslims at the same time.

<hollow laughter>

Brevik himself literally said about 75% of Jews were irredeemable cultural Marxists and basically "the enemy within", but that Israel was cool. His fantasy of Europe "rising up" was cribbed directly from the Turner Diaries, which of course had detailed chapters on killing Jews and African-Americans.

His own antisemitism, like that of most of the virulently anti-Muslim far right is massively downplayed.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 19, 2019, 05:19:31 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on December 18, 2019, 04:45:14 PM
I just read that article, and it sounds just like the way Franklin Graham talks about how the USA and Christianity are "inseparable".


Also, "Don't hate on our religion, go hate on those OTHER MOTHERFUCKERS."

They don't call her "Mad Mel" for nothing. She's utterly bonkers. But then, so is the editor for that website, Stephen Pollard. You could actually argue he is worse than Phillips herself, since he enables this crap.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 20, 2019, 04:37:40 PM
Brexit Bill passed.

Apart from the status of Northern Ireland, the key point is this:

QuoteIt prohibits any extension to the transition period beyond the end of 2020, even if a free trade deal isn't ready in time.

And that's the trick to getting a No Deal Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 20, 2019, 06:13:39 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 20, 2019, 04:37:40 PM
Brexit Bill passed.

Apart from the status of Northern Ireland, the key point is this:

QuoteIt prohibits any extension to the transition period beyond the end of 2020, even if a free trade deal isn't ready in time.

And that's the trick to getting a No Deal Brexit.

That is basically suicide.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 20, 2019, 08:24:23 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 20, 2019, 04:37:40 PM
Brexit Bill passed.

Apart from the status of Northern Ireland, the key point is this:

QuoteIt prohibits any extension to the transition period beyond the end of 2020, even if a free trade deal isn't ready in time.

And that's the trick to getting a No Deal Brexit.
He wants to put the option on the table again for sure, I don't think he wants it, he wants the EU to concede on the level playing field and wants to play the US off the EU to court the best deal.

In the history of everything going wrong, the worst thing the EU and US can do is run down the clock with neither offering anything. No deal happens, and the UK concedes to whatever terms either push on it in an abject desperation deal, which boris will portray as a win.

Economic Suez canal.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 20, 2020, 01:35:45 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/14/boris-johnsons-big-ben-brexit-bong-plan-falls-flat
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on January 20, 2020, 01:45:23 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 20, 2020, 01:35:45 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/14/boris-johnsons-big-ben-brexit-bong-plan-falls-flat

50,000 per bong

"the empire on which the sun never sets"  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on January 21, 2020, 12:04:26 AM
They are aware that "bong" doesn't mean that anymore? :crackhead:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 21, 2020, 12:30:36 AM
 :lulz:

The government being aware of things

:lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 24, 2020, 04:50:43 AM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-party-mep-june-mummery-european-parliament-trade-deal-commission-a9294051.html

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 29, 2020, 06:14:58 PM
https://apnews.com/b22e257a1fb0c86f221b20304f2233d4

DOO BEE DOO BEE DOOOOOOOO
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 29, 2020, 06:18:47 PM
Except we actually don't leave for another 11 months.

Also Boris Johnson still hasn't released the Russian interference report.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on January 31, 2020, 07:17:25 PM
Presented without comment.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 31, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
Unfortunately for us, he's deaf in the right ear.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on February 07, 2020, 11:22:18 AM

I was sifting out my Type O Negative collection of its racist and teenage garbage songs, and I found this mildly funny:

"Hail and Farewell to Britain" from the 2007 "Dead Again" album

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQDxyopurpk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQDxyopurpk)

QuoteOnce upon a slime I thought you royalty
I would never have questioned Your loyalty
Don't act so surprised I saw through your disguise
But with friends like you Who needs enemas

Up until recently Never had a clue I must admit I pity you

I'm through with your kind Cause you've wasted my time
Please do not release them Lord, knows what they do

I can't believe how cruel life is
Emotional blackmail Makes me sick, oh so sick

Who is to blame for constant shame on you
These words I use, Don't confuse, with cool
This misfortune, not lost but won deserved
Choosing is hard Careful which god you serve

Traitors many, surrounding me cowards
Conspiracy so clear to see flowers
We were brothers 'til discovered
Deceit tried with treason That's the reason you're beat

All hail and farewell to Britain All hail and farewell to thee
All hail and farewell to England All hail and farewell to me

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 10, 2020, 01:27:56 PM
Faust,

Is this good or bad?

https://apnews.com/f7c0de1379e3c2ca7143e0a2414c1f66

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 10, 2020, 02:03:15 PM
It's good I think, they didn't run enough seats to form a government on their own but that would be a serious possibility the next time.
The party is fresh, Mary lou doesn't have ties to the IRA that the former head of the Party Gerry Adams did (or did not) the perception created baggage.
Thing is this now creates a four way split for the government between SF, FF, FG and miscellaneous so it is going to be hard for any outcome of this to lead to anything but an election.
Significantly SF will call for the United Ireland poll (the Irish side), but this doesn't trigger it for NI (though would put huge pressure on the UK if it was a resounding 90+%)

The reason they got so many seats doesn't have anything to do with Brexit or NI:
In the republic we have a really serious healthcare and housing crises that has not been fixed or improved in any way by the leading party (FG) or their limpet in coalition FF, so SF were the next largest party for people to jump to.

It is now very hard to tell if there is a government can be formed over the next few weeks or if we will need another election.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 10, 2020, 02:12:55 PM
Quote from: Faust on February 10, 2020, 02:03:15 PM
It's good I think, they didn't run enough seats to form a government on their own but that would be a serious possibility the next time.
The party is fresh, Mary lou doesn't have ties to the IRA that the former head of the Party Gerry Adams did (or did not) the perception created baggage.
Thing is this now creates a four way split for the government between SF, FF, FG and miscellaneous so it is going to be hard for any outcome of this to lead to anything but an election.
Significantly SF will call for the United Ireland poll (the Irish side), but this doesn't trigger it for NI (though would put huge pressure on the UK if it was a resounding 90+%)

The reason they got so many seats doesn't have anything to do with Brexit or NI:
In the republic we have a really serious healthcare and housing crises that has not been fixed or improved in any way by the leading party (FG) or their limpet in coalition FF, so SF were the next largest party for people to jump to.

It is now very hard to tell if there is a government can be formed over the next few weeks or if we will need another election.

Apparently, one of the other factions will play ball, and the other is mush-mouthing about past violence.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 10, 2020, 02:18:41 PM
FF might, they are the guys who ran the economy like a casino, I would be more scared of them back into power than any of the others.
To be fair unless you are the greens or a party formed in the last year or so you can't really complain too much about SF and the Trobubles,
FF/FG were formed out of a violent uprising a century ago, but when you look at their policies they aren't hugely different to SF, which while technically a nationalist party is centre left and they are centre right
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 10, 2020, 02:28:58 PM
It looks to me like Ireland is rejecting the neoliberal consensus which has gripped the country for a very long time now.

I also just remembered, like, yesterday, that as a British citizen I can live, study and work freely in Ireland. My family are moving back to Australia, for whatever reason, but it does mean Ireland and New Zealand are both on my list of jobsearch locations.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 10, 2020, 02:51:35 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 10, 2020, 02:28:58 PM
It looks to me like Ireland is rejecting the neoliberal consensus which has gripped the country for a very long time now.

I also just remembered, like, yesterday, that as a British citizen I can live, study and work freely in Ireland. My family are moving back to Australia, for whatever reason, but it does mean Ireland and New Zealand are both on my list of jobsearch locations.
Yep, and I think four years in you could apply for an Irish passport which would allow you to work anywhere in the EU.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 10, 2020, 03:01:28 PM
That's a point...especially since Ireland and Australia both allow for dual-nationality.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 10, 2020, 03:10:20 PM
I'd research the rules in case I lead you astray but I think there is an option in it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 10, 2020, 03:19:17 PM
I just checked, 5 years in total (apparently you can't do the 1 year continuous residence and 4 years minimum residence together) and a couple of hundred euros.

And I'm sure the test can't be any harder than the UK's bullshit, which involves encyclopedic knowledge of 1970s pop culture.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 10, 2020, 05:04:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 10, 2020, 03:01:28 PM
That's a point...especially since Ireland and Australia both allow for dual-nationality.

Canada is the same, and it's nicer.  So long as you stay East of Manitoba.

In fact, just say "Toronto" and leave it at that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2020, 04:24:28 PM
UK economy flatlines in Q4 over Brexit, Chinese/American trade war.

https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 11, 2020, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 10, 2020, 05:04:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 10, 2020, 03:01:28 PM
That's a point...especially since Ireland and Australia both allow for dual-nationality.

Canada is the same, and it's nicer.  So long as you stay East of Manitoba.

In fact, just say "Toronto" and leave it at that.

I did also consider Canada, but their visa restrictions for workers are a lot tighter than Ireland would be.

Also yes, the economy has continued to flatline (has for a decade now) and Boris Johnson is continuing to make obscure "No Deal" threats (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-australia-eu-commission-latest-a9328681.html).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2020, 07:58:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 11, 2020, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 10, 2020, 05:04:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 10, 2020, 03:01:28 PM
That's a point...especially since Ireland and Australia both allow for dual-nationality.

Canada is the same, and it's nicer.  So long as you stay East of Manitoba.

In fact, just say "Toronto" and leave it at that.

I did also consider Canada, but their visa restrictions for workers are a lot tighter than Ireland would be.

Also yes, the economy has continued to flatline (has for a decade now) and Boris Johnson is continuing to make obscure "No Deal" threats (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-australia-eu-commission-latest-a9328681.html).


WOOOOOOW!  :lol:

That's Trump level idiocy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 11, 2020, 08:12:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 11, 2020, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 10, 2020, 05:04:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 10, 2020, 03:01:28 PM
That's a point...especially since Ireland and Australia both allow for dual-nationality.

Canada is the same, and it's nicer.  So long as you stay East of Manitoba.

In fact, just say "Toronto" and leave it at that.

I did also consider Canada, but their visa restrictions for workers are a lot tighter than Ireland would be.

Also yes, the economy has continued to flatline (has for a decade now) and Boris Johnson is continuing to make obscure "No Deal" threats (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-australia-eu-commission-latest-a9328681.html).
He said he wants an Australia style arrangement, the EU said that's fine but Australia doesn't do financials with the EU.
The EU aren't innocent in this either, there is a clause going into all of their trade deals that no other nation can get more favorable terms unless the EU also gets them.
The finance deregulation worries me, on the financials Boris basically threatened a global downturn and the EU seems to be ok with that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 12, 2020, 04:21:08 AM
Quote from: Faust on February 11, 2020, 08:12:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 11, 2020, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 10, 2020, 05:04:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 10, 2020, 03:01:28 PM
That's a point...especially since Ireland and Australia both allow for dual-nationality.

Canada is the same, and it's nicer.  So long as you stay East of Manitoba.

In fact, just say "Toronto" and leave it at that.

I did also consider Canada, but their visa restrictions for workers are a lot tighter than Ireland would be.

Also yes, the economy has continued to flatline (has for a decade now) and Boris Johnson is continuing to make obscure "No Deal" threats (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-australia-eu-commission-latest-a9328681.html).
He said he wants an Australia style arrangement, the EU said that's fine but Australia doesn't do financials with the EU.
The EU aren't innocent in this either, there is a clause going into all of their trade deals that no other nation can get more favorable terms unless the EU also gets them.
The finance deregulation worries me, on the financials Boris basically threatened a global downturn and the EU seems to be ok with that.

I doubt they're okay with it at all, but they're not about to kiss his spotty arse, either.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 12, 2020, 09:16:24 AM
I'm not so sure, if there has to be destabilisation, I'm getting the feeling that they think the financials would rebuild, but not in the UK.

I may be huffing the conspiracy theory crack pipe, but I get the feeling the EU want a economic crises to consolidate their position.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 12, 2020, 01:04:01 PM
A lot of the big financials are moving away from the UK to either Ireland, France, Holland or Germany anyway.

Goldman Sachs etc are already gone, it's a skeleton crew at downsized offices.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 12, 2020, 01:37:42 PM
Quote from: Faust on February 12, 2020, 09:16:24 AM
I'm not so sure, if there has to be destabilisation, I'm getting the feeling that they think the financials would rebuild, but not in the UK.

I may be huffing the conspiracy theory crack pipe, but I get the feeling the EU want a economic crises to consolidate their position.

Could be.  Mostly, I think it's just primate response.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 12, 2020, 02:22:09 PM
Meanwhile, the UK is back to deporting black people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/11/government-windrush-tough-migration

QuoteNow we have moved on to "foreign national offenders". Refusing to release or even pretend to pay the slightest attention to the Windrush Lessons Learned review, the government has deported 17 people to Jamaica – and in doing so it has communicated that it will continue to be "tough" on immigration. It's necessary, it says, to deport black people from this country – regardless of whether the UK was the only home they'd ever really known or if they'd served their sentences in the criminal justice system. Once again black people are being treated as second-class citizens.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 12, 2020, 02:24:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 12, 2020, 02:22:09 PM
Meanwhile, the UK is back to deporting black people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/11/government-windrush-tough-migration

QuoteNow we have moved on to "foreign national offenders". Refusing to release or even pretend to pay the slightest attention to the Windrush Lessons Learned review, the government has deported 17 people to Jamaica – and in doing so it has communicated that it will continue to be "tough" on immigration. It's necessary, it says, to deport black people from this country – regardless of whether the UK was the only home they'd ever really known or if they'd served their sentences in the criminal justice system. Once again black people are being treated as second-class citizens.

I wasn't aware that they had stopped.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 12, 2020, 02:28:53 PM
Well, there was an election on, so they calmed it down a bit.

You may remember it, as half the Cabinet boasted about doing drugs - the same thing some of these people are being deported for.

There was also a judicial review meant to halt the actual flight in question yesterday, but the Home Office refused to comment on whether the flight itself was cancelled or not - suggesting it was intending to break the law.

Oh, and we asked a 101 year old man to have his parents confirm his identity (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/12/home-office-tells-man-101-his-parents-must-confirm-id).
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 13, 2020, 02:24:03 PM
Wow.

Also, halfway down this article, it seems that Boris is firing all the women in his government:

https://apnews.com/c35e8e9949a4835e7553e51a0c62e8fc
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 13, 2020, 03:25:20 PM
No, he promoted one.

Suella Braverman, last seen saying "As Conservatives, we are engaged in a battle against cultural Marxism" last year, is now Attorney General.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on February 13, 2020, 03:27:00 PM
I'm not sure that's what's meant by "Intersectional Feminism".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 13, 2020, 03:50:14 PM
Are you suggesting we shouldn't have government officials repeating antisemitic conspiracy theories frequently invoked by Neo-Nazi terrorists in their attacks? That seems a bit narrow-minded, don't you think? Somewhat prejudiced, dare I even say bigoted?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on February 13, 2020, 03:52:42 PM
Look, I'm just asking questions here.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 13, 2020, 03:56:58 PM
If the human race was a horse, it would have to be shot.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 13, 2020, 11:52:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 13, 2020, 03:56:58 PM
If the human race was a horse, it would have to be shot.

If a horse was in the same state as the human race would you bother wasting a bullet?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on February 14, 2020, 04:26:44 AM
Javid out before he can even do his first budget.

That's probably the saviest political move he will ever make. Avoids having his name tied to the inevitable deal/no deal situation and hs2 among many others.

Ledsom finally out as well. Presumably because Cummings no longer needs her sect of 12 ish mps.

With the promotions and various others staying in place (raab/Hancock) it's looking like a grand show of incompetent shit to come. One may even eclipse grayling and hs2 just might be that shitshow. A minister is coming for that and I doubt it will be anyone capable of finding their arse with both hands and an atlas.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 18, 2020, 01:06:25 PM
I see we have successfully managed the pivot from "if Labour will get in, they will kill all the Jews" to "just because eugenics is immoral doesn't mean it won't work, and what's the big deal about having so many eugenicists advising the government anyway" in record time.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 18, 2020, 02:41:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 18, 2020, 01:06:25 PM
I see we have successfully managed the pivot from "if Labour will get in, they will kill all the Jews" to "just because eugenics is immoral doesn't mean it won't work, and what's the big deal about having so many eugenicists advising the government anyway" in record time.
Just over a month? Its almost as if they were just using the antisemitism as a lever in the last election, and they secretly harbored even worse views
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on February 18, 2020, 02:44:19 PM
A lot of polls actually show a lot of very abhorrent views on both Muslims and Jews in the Tory party. I guess that's what happens when you spend a decade pandering to the extreme right and co-opting all the parties to the right of you...you become a home to extremist, racist lunatics.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on February 18, 2020, 02:48:48 PM
And over the last two years any support it could get for brexit uber alles probably meant they needed to rely on shady folk to vote stuff through, it seems to be a symptom of parties that need to win with first past the post, with proportional representation and transferable vote it sands the worst edges off the parties and allows them to fragment to increase the chance of other parties going in.
Otherwise each of the big two will go further and further out to the extreme fringes
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 18, 2020, 03:36:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 18, 2020, 02:44:19 PM
A lot of polls actually show a lot of very abhorrent views on both Muslims and Jews in the Tory party. I guess that's what happens when you spend a decade pandering to the extreme right and co-opting all the parties to the right of you...you become a home to extremist, racist lunatics.

What's funny is that it doesn't matter if they started out pandering.  You say something often enough, you'll believe it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on February 18, 2020, 03:39:44 PM
In Germany recently, some politician guy got elected by a small margin because he made an alliance with the ultra-right... at his swearing in ceremony or something like that instead of shaking his hand they threw funeral flowers at his feet as a symbol of either a death of his political career or of democracy (?)...

My point is that he was so publicly shamed by EVERYONE that he ended up resigning the position... not like this could possibly happen in any other country that I could imagine, but at least its a template of how things ideally should work.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pergamos on February 20, 2020, 01:26:46 AM
Quote from: Faust on February 18, 2020, 02:48:48 PM
And over the last two years any support it could get for brexit uber alles probably meant they needed to rely on shady folk to vote stuff through, it seems to be a symptom of parties that need to win with first past the post, with proportional representation and transferable vote it sands the worst edges off the parties and allows them to fragment to increase the chance of other parties going in.
Otherwise each of the big two will go further and further out to the extreme fringes

I'd really love to see the Democrats in the US going to the fringe, for some reason only the Republicans do...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 04, 2020, 12:02:21 PM
A good thing we didn't think the NHS needed more funding or anything

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/03/icu-doctor-nhs-coronavirus-pandemic-hospitals

QuoteICU treats patients whose lives are at risk or whose organs have failed. Severe Covid-19 leads mostly to lung failure but also causes kidney and cardiovascular (heart and blood vessel) failure. All these are rapidly fatal without intense and prompt treatments only available in ICU. In simple terms, treatments include a ventilator taking over the patient's breathing while the patient is anaesthetised (placed in an induced coma), a dialysis machine cleaning the blood and drugs or machines supporting the heart and blood pressure. The reality of care is, of course, considerably more complex and highly intensive.

So let's look at some statistics: it is likely that more than 30% of the whole UK population will get Covid-19 – it may be as high as 60% in some estimates. Most will have no or mild illness but maybe one in seven will need hospital admission. Of patients in hospital up to one in five may need ICU care – that would be an unprecedented number of people admitted to ICU. As many as one in 50 of patients known to have Covid-19 may die from it.

ICU is a precious and scarce resource in terms of beds, staff and equipment. This is especially so in the UK. In 2012 the UK had about 4,100 critical care beds including ICU beds and "high dependency" beds which are a step down from full ICU care. Compared with other European countries the UK ranked 23rd of 31 in terms of ICU beds per head of population and 29th of 31 for all hospital beds. Germany has approximately four times as many ICU beds per capita as the UK and the USA perhaps 10-fold as many. Data from 2017 suggest little change. Most UK ICUs therefore run at or above 90% occupancy and often can only admit new patients only by discharging others – even when workload is normal. Covid-19 will increase pressures not only because of weight of numbers but because intermediate treatments for pneumonia and lung failure are "aerosol-generating" (ie they risk spreading the disease) so cannot be used and early recourse to ICU is required.

Increased ICU demands equate to each ICU bed being needed for approximately 100 more patients than on average in the epidemic period – at least 10 times the normal throughput and equivalent to needing at least another 10 ICUs in the hospital during the epidemic. Of course, this demand will be in addition to, rather than instead of, normal workload as the illnesses that usually require ICU admission will not go away during the epidemic. In Wuhan, ICU capacity was increased by over 1,000 beds in two weeks by building a new hospital, but this is not possible in the UK.

And on and on and on.

If only we'd had some kind of party, running on a platform of reversing the disastrous NHS cuts of the past decade...
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 08, 2020, 11:42:56 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 04, 2020, 12:02:21 PM
A good thing we didn't think the NHS needed more funding or anything

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/03/icu-doctor-nhs-coronavirus-pandemic-hospitals

QuoteICU treats patients whose lives are at risk or whose organs have failed. Severe Covid-19 leads mostly to lung failure but also causes kidney and cardiovascular (heart and blood vessel) failure. All these are rapidly fatal without intense and prompt treatments only available in ICU. In simple terms, treatments include a ventilator taking over the patient's breathing while the patient is anaesthetised (placed in an induced coma), a dialysis machine cleaning the blood and drugs or machines supporting the heart and blood pressure. The reality of care is, of course, considerably more complex and highly intensive.

So let's look at some statistics: it is likely that more than 30% of the whole UK population will get Covid-19 – it may be as high as 60% in some estimates. Most will have no or mild illness but maybe one in seven will need hospital admission. Of patients in hospital up to one in five may need ICU care – that would be an unprecedented number of people admitted to ICU. As many as one in 50 of patients known to have Covid-19 may die from it.

ICU is a precious and scarce resource in terms of beds, staff and equipment. This is especially so in the UK. In 2012 the UK had about 4,100 critical care beds including ICU beds and "high dependency" beds which are a step down from full ICU care. Compared with other European countries the UK ranked 23rd of 31 in terms of ICU beds per head of population and 29th of 31 for all hospital beds. Germany has approximately four times as many ICU beds per capita as the UK and the USA perhaps 10-fold as many. Data from 2017 suggest little change. Most UK ICUs therefore run at or above 90% occupancy and often can only admit new patients only by discharging others – even when workload is normal. Covid-19 will increase pressures not only because of weight of numbers but because intermediate treatments for pneumonia and lung failure are "aerosol-generating" (ie they risk spreading the disease) so cannot be used and early recourse to ICU is required.

Increased ICU demands equate to each ICU bed being needed for approximately 100 more patients than on average in the epidemic period – at least 10 times the normal throughput and equivalent to needing at least another 10 ICUs in the hospital during the epidemic. Of course, this demand will be in addition to, rather than instead of, normal workload as the illnesses that usually require ICU admission will not go away during the epidemic. In Wuhan, ICU capacity was increased by over 1,000 beds in two weeks by building a new hospital, but this is not possible in the UK.

And on and on and on.

If only we'd had some kind of party, running on a platform of reversing the disastrous NHS cuts of the past decade...

This is the punchline where I get to watch all those dumb old fucks who voted against independence and then for brexit choke to death on their own phlegm :evil:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 08, 2020, 01:21:15 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 08, 2020, 11:42:56 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 04, 2020, 12:02:21 PM
A good thing we didn't think the NHS needed more funding or anything

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/03/icu-doctor-nhs-coronavirus-pandemic-hospitals

QuoteICU treats patients whose lives are at risk or whose organs have failed. Severe Covid-19 leads mostly to lung failure but also causes kidney and cardiovascular (heart and blood vessel) failure. All these are rapidly fatal without intense and prompt treatments only available in ICU. In simple terms, treatments include a ventilator taking over the patient's breathing while the patient is anaesthetised (placed in an induced coma), a dialysis machine cleaning the blood and drugs or machines supporting the heart and blood pressure. The reality of care is, of course, considerably more complex and highly intensive.

So let's look at some statistics: it is likely that more than 30% of the whole UK population will get Covid-19 – it may be as high as 60% in some estimates. Most will have no or mild illness but maybe one in seven will need hospital admission. Of patients in hospital up to one in five may need ICU care – that would be an unprecedented number of people admitted to ICU. As many as one in 50 of patients known to have Covid-19 may die from it.

ICU is a precious and scarce resource in terms of beds, staff and equipment. This is especially so in the UK. In 2012 the UK had about 4,100 critical care beds including ICU beds and "high dependency" beds which are a step down from full ICU care. Compared with other European countries the UK ranked 23rd of 31 in terms of ICU beds per head of population and 29th of 31 for all hospital beds. Germany has approximately four times as many ICU beds per capita as the UK and the USA perhaps 10-fold as many. Data from 2017 suggest little change. Most UK ICUs therefore run at or above 90% occupancy and often can only admit new patients only by discharging others – even when workload is normal. Covid-19 will increase pressures not only because of weight of numbers but because intermediate treatments for pneumonia and lung failure are "aerosol-generating" (ie they risk spreading the disease) so cannot be used and early recourse to ICU is required.

Increased ICU demands equate to each ICU bed being needed for approximately 100 more patients than on average in the epidemic period – at least 10 times the normal throughput and equivalent to needing at least another 10 ICUs in the hospital during the epidemic. Of course, this demand will be in addition to, rather than instead of, normal workload as the illnesses that usually require ICU admission will not go away during the epidemic. In Wuhan, ICU capacity was increased by over 1,000 beds in two weeks by building a new hospital, but this is not possible in the UK.

And on and on and on.

If only we'd had some kind of party, running on a platform of reversing the disastrous NHS cuts of the past decade...

This is the punchline where I get to watch all those dumb old fucks who voted against independence and then for brexit choke to death on their own phlegm :evil:

Or get their heart fiber turned to neoplasmic goo, or have their kidneys get shredded, some just straight up die of shock too fast to catch themselves falling, hopefully some will die of dehydration from the flux of their rotten guts, maybe a few get their egg poached by raging fever.

This one is quite diverse.
You know, for just a flu,
Or whatever soothing thing
They wanna compare it to.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on March 08, 2020, 10:10:12 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 08, 2020, 11:42:56 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 04, 2020, 12:02:21 PM
A good thing we didn't think the NHS needed more funding or anything

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/03/icu-doctor-nhs-coronavirus-pandemic-hospitals

QuoteICU treats patients whose lives are at risk or whose organs have failed. Severe Covid-19 leads mostly to lung failure but also causes kidney and cardiovascular (heart and blood vessel) failure. All these are rapidly fatal without intense and prompt treatments only available in ICU. In simple terms, treatments include a ventilator taking over the patient's breathing while the patient is anaesthetised (placed in an induced coma), a dialysis machine cleaning the blood and drugs or machines supporting the heart and blood pressure. The reality of care is, of course, considerably more complex and highly intensive.

So let's look at some statistics: it is likely that more than 30% of the whole UK population will get Covid-19 – it may be as high as 60% in some estimates. Most will have no or mild illness but maybe one in seven will need hospital admission. Of patients in hospital up to one in five may need ICU care – that would be an unprecedented number of people admitted to ICU. As many as one in 50 of patients known to have Covid-19 may die from it.

ICU is a precious and scarce resource in terms of beds, staff and equipment. This is especially so in the UK. In 2012 the UK had about 4,100 critical care beds including ICU beds and "high dependency" beds which are a step down from full ICU care. Compared with other European countries the UK ranked 23rd of 31 in terms of ICU beds per head of population and 29th of 31 for all hospital beds. Germany has approximately four times as many ICU beds per capita as the UK and the USA perhaps 10-fold as many. Data from 2017 suggest little change. Most UK ICUs therefore run at or above 90% occupancy and often can only admit new patients only by discharging others – even when workload is normal. Covid-19 will increase pressures not only because of weight of numbers but because intermediate treatments for pneumonia and lung failure are "aerosol-generating" (ie they risk spreading the disease) so cannot be used and early recourse to ICU is required.

Increased ICU demands equate to each ICU bed being needed for approximately 100 more patients than on average in the epidemic period – at least 10 times the normal throughput and equivalent to needing at least another 10 ICUs in the hospital during the epidemic. Of course, this demand will be in addition to, rather than instead of, normal workload as the illnesses that usually require ICU admission will not go away during the epidemic. In Wuhan, ICU capacity was increased by over 1,000 beds in two weeks by building a new hospital, but this is not possible in the UK.

And on and on and on.

If only we'd had some kind of party, running on a platform of reversing the disastrous NHS cuts of the past decade...

This is the punchline where I get to watch all those dumb old fucks who voted against independence and then for brexit choke to death on their own phlegm :evil:

Oi, Junior! #NotAllGeriatrics, mate. I didn't get a vote in the Indy Ref on account of being foreign and all [English born - Welsh resident for over 40 years] but I very much wanted Scotland to stay, partly for the very selfish reason that we can't every get another Labour govt if all the well affected leftwing Scots are off huffing their own sporrans and tenderly polishing their own cabers, while voting for that wee Krankie woman.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 09, 2020, 03:15:16 PM
Hate to break it to you but there's no such thing as Labour. UK has been a one-party system since Tory f'kin Blair :argh!:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 09, 2020, 04:42:36 PM
It is kinda amazing how people can look at 40 years of almost uninterrupted Tory rule, apart from one Labour leader, and conclude "clearly the problem is with Labour's leadership".

It's definitely not to do with malapportionment, gerrymandering, the first-past-the-post voting system or a toxic media environment almost exclusively owned by asshole billionaires and run by asshole centrists whose main mantra is "I got mine, fuck you" and whose main skills involve being wrong on every single topic of importance for the past 20 years. No, those definitely can't be factors.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on March 10, 2020, 12:13:54 AM
Damn straight
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 10, 2020, 01:08:57 PM
It's alright though, the BBC had noted virologist *checks notes* Nigel Farage on last night, to tell the public about the risk coronavirus presents to the public.

Because our media is most definitely not broken or anything.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 10, 2020, 02:09:46 PM
How many different ways did he have to say it is Europes fault?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 10, 2020, 03:33:05 PM
As per the Standard:

Quote"This disease is spreading very, very quickly in Milan," he said.

"I think to be just be carrying on with these flights coming in with no tests of any kind - initially we flew people in from Wuhan we put them in quarantine, we brought them back from the ship in Japan and we put them in quarantine (but) now we couldn't care less and I think this is a real failure of leadership."

He continued: "I think in a couple weeks time (if) we discover that many people have been infected in this country by travellers that have come back from northern Italy, there will be hell to pay."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 10, 2020, 04:51:14 PM
Oh dear... stop anyone returning from Northern Italy.
What about the UK citizens there, revoke their citizenship and say "you knew the risks when you left the beloved homeland for your Holiday"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 10, 2020, 07:22:26 PM
If they loved the UK so much, they should have holidayed in proper UK resorts, like Clacton and Skegness.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 10, 2020, 11:14:31 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51827356

Health minister infected.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 10, 2020, 11:16:28 PM
Couldn't happen to a nicer person.

Seriously, Nadine Dorries is the worst person in Parliament. At least Rees-Mogg appears to have some principles. Imported from the 11th century, but they kinda exist, in some sense. Dorries is all about expediency.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 10, 2020, 11:17:49 PM
Also, considering its dorres, I do hope it's nothing too mild. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 10, 2020, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2020, 11:16:28 PM
Couldn't happen to a nicer person.

Seriously, Nadine Dorries is the worst person in Parliament. At least Rees-Mogg appears to have some principles. Imported from the 11th century, but they kinda exist, in some sense. Dorries is all about expediency.

Beat me to it.

That said, it's hard to name 3 mps that I'd shed a tear for in practically any circumstances.

Fuck, imagine the money saved if grayling had needed to self isolate for 2 weeks under may.  That's a good few million, probably 20 or so.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 10, 2020, 11:27:40 PM
 :lulz: Somehow Grayling would manage to infect the entire prison service or something, I can just see it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 11, 2020, 12:25:40 AM
Speaking of Grayling, guess what job he's just been given (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11144337/boris-johnson-chris-grayling-intelligence-job/)?

QuoteBORIS Johnson has sparked anger among Tory MPs by parachuting Chris Grayling into a prized intelligence job.

The PM is to appoint the controversial former Cabinet minister to sit on Parliament's esteemed Intelligence and Security Committee.

Downing Street also plans to give other the other Conservative members on it the instruction to elect him as its new chair.

Running the committee – which scrutinises the work of MI5, MI6 and GCHQ – is seen as the most prestigious job for any backbench MP.

It traditionally goes to long-serving party grandees as a reward for years of service.

But the decision to award it to Mr Grayling has created an angry backlash among some backbenchers.

They point to the former Transport Secretary's bumpy record in government where he committed a series of gaffes, and argue he has never held a national security role.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 11, 2020, 01:03:55 AM
"bumpy record".

And the titanic hit an ice cube.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 11, 2020, 01:16:49 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2020, 11:27:40 PM
:lulz: Somehow Grayling would manage to infect the entire prison service or something, I can just see it.

Thinking about that, I would guess he'd set everyone free to self isolate at home as long as they promised to come back after 2 weeks.

At least that Russia report will be delivered promptly around 2035 with only a few dozen billion added to the cost somehow.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on March 11, 2020, 07:48:12 AM
Quote from: Junkenstein on March 11, 2020, 01:16:49 AM
Quote from: Cain on March 10, 2020, 11:27:40 PM
:lulz: Somehow Grayling would manage to infect the entire prison service or something, I can just see it.

Thinking about that, I would guess he'd set everyone free to self isolate at home as long as they promised to come back after 2 weeks.

At least that Russia report will be delivered promptly around 2035 with only a few dozen billion added to the cost somehow.
That may not actually be unreasonable, depending on the prison, the big one Ireland is worried about is the cells holding seven people when its only supposed to hold three. Cronic overcrowding could cause the virus to spread quickly in that enclosed environment. They may be looking to let out a lot of the non violent offenders, especially if they only have a few months in their sentences
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 11, 2020, 02:29:41 PM
There have been riots and prison breaks in Italy already.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 11, 2020, 05:16:15 PM
Ah, finally, some details on the Grenfell fire are coming to light

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51839197

QuoteAt the meeting, the two firms discussed the cladding options and Harley Facades showed him its portfolio, including a project at Ferrier Point in Canning Town, east London, which had used ACM panels.

Mr Rek told the inquiry he thought the focus of the meeting was "more to do with the appearance and price of the various materials and not their fire performance or fire rating".

Afterwards, lead Studio E architect Bruce Sounes sent an email to Mr Harris of Harley saying his "back of a fag packet" figure for the cladding had been deemed over-budget, according to emails.

The next month, Mr Harris emailed Mr Rek regarding pricing, saying from a "Harley selfish point of view our preference would be to use ACM", adding the firm was "confident of the cost base".

Separately, Mr Rek told the inquiry the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, the client for the project, was putting his firm "under some kind of pressure" to use the cheaper materials.

By July 2014, the BBC has previously revealed, council officials had decided to change the cladding to the more dangerous material, reducing the budget by less than £300,000.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 13, 2020, 06:40:41 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/KlrMCcP.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 13, 2020, 08:16:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 11, 2020, 02:29:41 PM
There have been riots and prison breaks in Italy already.

This will all be small time once you tell x thousand scouse twats they can't leave Liverpool,

So, martial law in the summer for the peak? If it's the new normal for 6months it'll be a lot easier to extend it come January. We won't need anywhere near a 13% drop to see (more) riots. And that's without extinction rebellion irritating anyone. Hell, if they're smart the propaganda they could churn out on the back of this is incredible, if they had the balls to do so.

As to grenfel, the cost saving being a huge factor is going to be the end of it really. Councils are notorious for using the cheapest tender, every time without fail. Which was always amazing as 'quality'  allegedly had a 50-70% weighting. The official portal used to be called 'the chest' or something similar. What a fucking joke that was. I know of at least 400k-1mil jobs that were rendered at nil or minal, like 1-4k cost. Obviously these became very expensive and problematic costing the councils around triple or so.

This isn't even through corruption either, it's just sheer incompetence. With everyone losing their shirt and making no money either.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 13, 2020, 08:56:22 PM
I think the government is planning around a "summer of discontent", presumably hoping it can avoid shutting down the schools in the meantime. But I'll honestly be surprised if this policy continues past the end of April. Things will become increasingly untenable over the next 6 weeks, as people become increasingly clear that "everyone needs herd immunity" is government speak for "lets condemn a million or so people to early deaths for the Greater Good".

As for Grenfell, I'm mostly just feeling vindicated in my original supposition that this wasn't simply a business failing, but it was aided and abetted on some legislative level.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 13, 2020, 09:34:42 PM
I was assuming pushing it off to the summer so they can all fuck off for a long break was the main factor.


Grenfell was a a failing on nearly every level, with enough dead to shine the spotlight a bit. I'd gladly bet limbs that every other council has made similar decisions in exactly the same way, for the same reason. Its just a matter of time until some foi requests prove it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2020, 09:28:06 AM
That too. However, it seems there has been a u-turn in government policy. The government is reported to due to stop mass gatherings next week, passing emergency powers to stop them and grant compensation to businesses to allow workers to work from home.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 14, 2020, 02:23:08 PM
Ah, I see among the emergency powers the government is giving is for the police to be able to arrest and detain people they suspect of having COVID-19.

I see a lot of ethnic minorities getting arrested for coughing in public.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 19, 2020, 10:10:28 AM
With the schools now closing, it seems the local authorities have seen that as a green light to start taking action.

40 Tube stations have been closed today, including my own. I don't need it, but shutting down that many stations at once is really serious business.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 20, 2020, 02:31:41 PM
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/90677625_10158058084584393_2479439540004061184_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_eui2=AeH6WEweiLoWmgUiZqvPlZb4L6Bim3ZPdCWJ_DSWeXN6Rgc6MIzUviKJMv8NJiF1eYfEUsTenbP8VqbeHPi3POjKiYMbL8Q6PDbQ1uOYUtXusQ&_nc_ohc=C3-fAPaDHpkAX_G0B_j&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=0c950fd026cf1a63e8ca08d041a7cec8&oe=5E9AC231)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on March 25, 2020, 01:02:11 PM
Who had bets on the monarchy ending this way? (https://apnews.com/c951dd5c5dcf9cd48b2177f5c4fff164)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 25, 2020, 01:15:36 PM
Nah. If anything, it means the monarchy will endure even longer. See also: the last two times we had Kings named Charles.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on March 27, 2020, 11:24:28 AM
BBC Posted at 11:2011:20
BREAKING
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has coronavirus

you know what that means . . . Dominic Raab takes over . . . get well soon Mr Johnson
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 27, 2020, 02:31:24 PM
Hancock is down as well.

Though sadly I can now never say Nadine Dorries has never done anything worthwhile in her life. Infecting the Boris is definitely noteworthy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 27, 2020, 02:55:01 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 27, 2020, 02:31:24 PM
Hancock is down as well.

Though sadly I can now never say Nadine Dorries has never done anything worthwhile in her life. Infecting the Boris is definitely noteworthy.

He'll be fine.  It's just "moving through the population."
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on March 27, 2020, 02:58:46 PM
Something something never thought the leopards would eat my face.

Couldn't happen to a worthier person.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 27, 2020, 04:30:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 27, 2020, 02:58:46 PM
Something something never thought the leopards would eat my face.

Couldn't happen to a worthier person.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on March 27, 2020, 04:57:54 PM
I can't stop sniggering. The heir to the throne, the Prime Minister and the sodding Health Secretary. FFS guys did you think being IMPORTANT persons made you fucking immune? Is the plague only available to the common herd???
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Magpie on March 27, 2020, 06:46:06 PM
It's Charles' plan to get on the throne, infect his mother since nothing else seems to get to her.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on March 27, 2020, 06:48:31 PM
Lol
Sneaky old bugger
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on March 28, 2020, 02:03:06 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 27, 2020, 02:58:46 PM
Something something never thought the leopards would eat my face.

Couldn't happen to a worthier person.

I've got a quid on him not actually having it, just using it as an excuse to kick out his pregnant missus.

£2 says she never moves back in.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 05, 2020, 12:38:44 PM
Daily government press conference. Michael Gove. Slogan on the front of the podium he's talking from - "Protect the NHS"

How long before his backers demand he knocks that shit the fuck off?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 05, 2020, 05:22:09 PM
It's one of the most cynical things about this. If these fucks actually cared about the NHS, they wouldn't have shafted it on every possible occasion. It plays to an ownership they ideologicaly object to which is why none of them can say it with a straight face. Cognitive dissonance in action.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on April 05, 2020, 09:32:48 PM
14m ago
21:17
UK PM admitted to hospital for tests
The UK prime minister Boris Johnson has been admitted to hospital for tests after showing persistent symptoms of coronavirus 10 days after testing positive.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 05, 2020, 10:07:08 PM
Quote from: MMIX on April 05, 2020, 09:32:48 PM
14m ago
21:17
UK PM admitted to hospital for tests
The UK prime minister Boris Johnson has been admitted to hospital for tests after showing persistent symptoms of coronavirus 10 days after testing positive.
:drama1:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 06, 2020, 08:53:51 AM
Not quite as funny as Trump dying from it but I can't say Boris croaking wouldn't elicit a noteworthy chuckle
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 06, 2020, 12:02:12 PM
I love how the government is still having to insist that he is in charge, beause of the undeniable terror of Raab being acting PM that every reasonable person has.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 06, 2020, 12:04:46 PM
A reasonable, moderate, and proportioned response to Raab as Prime minister would be a full out riot and deposing of the  government
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on April 06, 2020, 01:16:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 06, 2020, 12:02:12 PM
I love how the government is still having to insist that he is in charge, beause of the undeniable terror of Raab being acting PM that every reasonable person has.

How can they tell . . . ?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 06, 2020, 03:08:54 PM
If Boris is still PM, or what reasonable people think?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 06, 2020, 03:46:34 PM
The best result for him is probably death. After this shit show is resolved its back to Brexit bollocks which just can't end well in the best of circumstances.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 06, 2020, 09:08:36 PM
And he's in the icu.

Let's all hope for the right outcome.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 06, 2020, 09:17:48 PM
And raabs officially deputising.

He'll be launching nukes at Canada by Thursday eve.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 06, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 06, 2020, 09:08:36 PM
And he's in the icu.

Let's all hope for the right outcome.

Once you're on a ventilator you're on it for 2 weeks on average and only about 15% get off it alive... so, I'll bet you a custom meme that he makes it. He'll probably croak but if he don't what's your wager?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on April 06, 2020, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on April 06, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 06, 2020, 09:08:36 PM
And he's in the icu.

Let's all hope for the right outcome.

Once you're on a ventilator you're on it for 2 weeks on average and only about 15% get off it alive... so, I'll bet you a custom meme that he makes it. He'll probably croak but if he don't what's your wager?

If he makes it, I'll buy you a meal (by PayPalling you the money for a meal, of course) out of my second paycheck.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on April 06, 2020, 10:59:52 PM
Quote from: altered on April 06, 2020, 10:52:28 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on April 06, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 06, 2020, 09:08:36 PM
And he's in the icu.

Let's all hope for the right outcome.

Once you're on a ventilator you're on it for 2 weeks on average and only about 15% get off it alive... so, I'll bet you a custom meme that he makes it. He'll probably croak but if he don't what's your wager?

If he makes it, I'll buy you a meal (by PayPalling you the money for a meal, of course) out of my second paycheck.

Deal. It's a long shot, but the payoff would be marvelous. Now I need to set up a paypal account, win or lose come to think of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 10, 2020, 04:12:53 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on April 06, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on April 06, 2020, 09:08:36 PM
And he's in the icu.

Let's all hope for the right outcome.

Once you're on a ventilator you're on it for 2 weeks on average and only about 15% get off it alive... so, I'll bet you a custom meme that he makes it. He'll probably croak but if he don't what's your wager?

A positive outcome either way.

He dies, this shit gets taken (more) seriously, conservative party in fights over next leader. Any problems get blamed on dead guy, who people finally realise was a bit of a tit after 6 months of wearing black. Daily Express still runs bi weekly mourning headlines though.

He lives, he takes it more seriously, conservative party infighting over successor and ousting attempts begin. Any problems get blamed on him and people finally notice the man is a bit of a tit and deride him. Telegraph still gives him a cushy number though.

The variation between the best and worst of all possible worlds isn't as much as you may think at times.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 13, 2020, 02:57:15 PM
So, this internal Labour report into what's being going on in the party is amazing. It basically confirms every suspicion Corbyn's supporters had of not only the media approach to his leadership, but the internal party structures as well.

Most notably, not only did the internal party leadership fail to provide Corbyn with any level of support, which was obvious, they were openly angling to throw the 2017 election in order to remove him, while using the antisemitism complaints to organise "Trot-hunting" events in the party and attempt to purge what they considered to be the far-left - often at the expense of allowing truly abusive individuals to stay in the party without sanction.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 02, 2020, 04:53:39 PM
Hey Cain, seen a few articles about how ideally the daily fear should be done consistently by 1-3 people for clarity of message. Tories have been consistent in shoving a different face in front of the camera every day. Is this to drag out the coming inquest by multiple extra years? The process of evidence gathering dwarfs Grenfell and I'm guessing is closer to Iraq in inquiry scales.

Basically, what's the chances of seeing Johnson do a Blairesque mea culpa in about 15 years?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 02, 2020, 07:00:08 PM
I think that's giving them entirely too much credit for forward thinking. I think they're all secretly terrified of being labelled the "face of coronavirus" and hoping the whole affair will fall on Boris Johnson. However, if they're the person doing the nightly briefings, then their chances of being the next party leader go right down.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 11, 2020, 06:29:29 PM
So the UK is once again open for business.

Oh wait, that was meant to be Wednesday.

Once again, Tory communications are just fantastic. Also here comes a summer flare-up of the virus.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Juana on May 11, 2020, 06:56:56 PM
That's an impressive bungle, good lord. Or back pedaling and both are worth derision.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 11, 2020, 07:23:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 11, 2020, 06:29:29 PM
So the UK is once again open for business.

Oh wait, that was meant to be Wednesday.

Once again, Tory communications are just fantastic. Also here comes a summer flare-up of the virus.

I am in awe. 
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2020, 12:30:46 AM
The absolute best part? A couple of months ago, the press practically jizzing themselves over the "discplined and clear Tory party communications" (which they were obviously anything but).

I mean, sure, the Tories are going to kill a lot of people for no good reason and the press seem to be slowly waking up to that fact, only to shy away from it time and time again, but it's amusing.

One of the most galling aspects of the current crisis is that it's Piers Morgan who is ripping the government a new one over their daily acts of idiocy. He's actually pretty good at it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha2vyuQprnQ), too, possibly because he's been personally affected by it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2020, 01:00:40 AM
I've heard more coherent cut up poems than his last couple of performances.

Between the different rules for part of the UK and utter lack of clarity it gives a fair idea of how well the ongoing brexit negotiations are doing too.

The real fun will start when employers cant/won't abide by restrictions resulting in the economy getting double fucked. Those that can get their shit together by Wednesday can't even be sure that the requirements will even be the same tomorrow.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2020, 01:29:11 AM
A lot of unionised workers are going to start throwing Section 44 around, and rightfully so. They need to be provided with risk assessments, too.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2020, 06:45:29 AM
Which instantly becomes an utter joke due to the million possible uncontrolled risks involved with getting to any workplace. As there is no possible company control measure it remains a high unmitigated risk as your employer can do nothing at all about other passengers on a bus for example.

From the pictures of London tubes/busses earlier today, I'm guessing the second spike is coming in about 3 weeks.

I look forward to buying stealing my commerative copy of the daily hate with the "burn Boris burn" headline when the toll hits about 50k.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2020, 07:24:02 AM
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think it'll be even earlier than that though, remember the VE Day Celebrations?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on May 12, 2020, 08:34:27 AM

Just "keep alert" mate, everything will pan out.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 23, 2020, 10:11:09 PM
Cummings broke lock down at least twice to visit parents, government currently accusing police of lying about whether he was spoken to or not.

I'm glad to see that at least his kill the elderly idea started at home.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2020, 10:22:35 PM
Also the BBC political editor is running interference for the government on Twitter. Straight up repeating government PR verbatim in reporters comments.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 23, 2020, 11:18:04 PM
Knussenberg I assume?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2020, 11:38:32 PM
Naturally. She cannot help herself.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on May 25, 2020, 12:06:24 AM
Cain, historically speaking what tend to be the results of what's happening in the U.K. right now? Rulers held to a different standard, incoherent messaging except for "when it comes down to it we are better than you", a crisis handled in the worst possible manner with plain evidence as to how it could be handled better, etc?

I might be wrong, but this resembles to me the lead up to a lot of successful historical revolutions, yes?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 25, 2020, 12:28:37 AM
Quote from: altered on May 25, 2020, 12:06:24 AM
Cain, historically speaking what tend to be the results of what's happening in the U.K. right now? Rulers held to a different standard, incoherent messaging except for "when it comes down to it we are better than you", a crisis handled in the worst possible manner with plain evidence as to how it could be handled better, etc?

I might be wrong, but this resembles to me the lead up to a lot of successful historical revolutions, yes?

Historically speaking, in other countries, it looks pretty bad, yes.

Here, it reminds me of the early 1990s. A hilariously out of touch, corrupt government at every turn, confronted by a superficially slick and centrist Labour leader.

Hiding most of the dead bodies in nursing homes and the press being utterly incurious when it comes to criticising the ruling party are also key factors to consider.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on May 25, 2020, 12:39:29 AM
Quote from: Cain on May 25, 2020, 12:28:37 AM
Quote from: altered on May 25, 2020, 12:06:24 AM
Cain, historically speaking what tend to be the results of what's happening in the U.K. right now? Rulers held to a different standard, incoherent messaging except for "when it comes down to it we are better than you", a crisis handled in the worst possible manner with plain evidence as to how it could be handled better, etc?

I might be wrong, but this resembles to me the lead up to a lot of successful historical revolutions, yes?

Historically speaking, in other countries, it looks pretty bad, yes.

Here, it reminds me of the early 1990s. A hilariously out of touch, corrupt government at every turn, confronted by a superficially slick and centrist Labour leader.

Hiding most of the dead bodies in nursing homes and the press being utterly incurious when it comes to criticising the ruling party are also key factors to consider.

The very fact it has a body count makes me feel it's a different story from times in the past you've had a government dead set on fucking the dog to death. People don't like hearing the rules only apply to them, but they especially hate hearing their lives have no value. Is there some mitigating factor here that might protect Johnson and his creatures from an unruly mob coming into being?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 25, 2020, 01:12:14 AM
Well our official body count is wildly fudged. The vast majority of deaths have been taking place in nursing and care homes, not recorded as official deaths as a result. Our real death toll is over double what the official count is, so the crisis doesn't seem quite as bad as it is.

Otherwise, the government has been doing this for years now. Doing over the top evil shit, then telling blatant lies to the press, then telling the public to go fuck themselves, has been the standard since Cameron got in. The only difference is some of the press actually seem angry about the blatant lies for once...and that doesn't include The Sun, The Express or the Telegraph, all of whom are still backing the PM.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on May 25, 2020, 01:22:48 AM
To be fair, your press is fucked in all sorts of ways. I don’t think there’s one single U.K. outlet I’d trust for factual news at this point.


ETA: I pressed send while scrolling so I originally intended to add more, but I realized when I edited to go type it that it was not useful. I would have deleted this entire post at that point if I hadn’t already sent it. So here we are.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 25, 2020, 01:37:16 AM
Our print press is horrific. Sky News is actually quite decent nowadays, given that it's no longer owned by Murdoch but has still retained a lot of the talent he attracted over the years. Channel 4 are also very, very good and have much less ideological baggage. Dispatches (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatches_(TV_programme)) continues to be one of the best investigative journalism programmes in the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 25, 2020, 11:32:34 AM
Quote from: altered on May 25, 2020, 01:22:48 AM
To be fair, your press is fucked in all sorts of ways. I don't think there's one single U.K. outlet I'd trust for factual news at this point.

Here's the thing, due to the libel, slander and d notice jazz, if a paper or two here runs a front page story, it will typically stand up in court. Look at how well markle has done so far in taking them to task.

The problem we really have here is the same as the states, opinion pieces masquerading as journalism. Which often are front page leads.

If you're not familiar with d notices it's worth a look at. It's the system that prevents paper for reporting the fact that Johnson has 9 kids for example. It can prevent even asking the question.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 25, 2020, 11:54:48 AM
In vaguely related corruption, Cummings still has a job making Johnson look even more spineless than before.


Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 25, 2020, 01:16:35 PM
Naturally. I mean, rules are for little people. I did hear that Cummings "knows where the bodies are buried" and has done since his days in the education sector though, but I suspect "one rule for the plebs, one for the elite" is also a significant consideration.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 25, 2020, 02:54:40 PM
The main rumor I've heard is Johnson sexually harrased Cummings wife. Who is apparently the current editor of the spectator.

It's plausible enough that I've been happy to spread it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 25, 2020, 03:19:50 PM
Fraser Nelson is Cumming's wife?!

I know, I know, it's Mary Wakefield, and she is, to be fair, the commissioning editor. But Fraser Nelson's complete lack of shame and weird interest in eugenics would make him a good fit for Cummings.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 25, 2020, 03:44:02 PM
There are many reasons I've been preaching that we've moved from the strange times to the new horrible times. This is but one. Given Johnson antics at the spectator I would not be surprised if he has groped both of them.

Cummings holding press slanging match at 4, expected to say its your own fault if you suffered hardship by adhering to rules. Following this, throws a fifty at the nearest pig security goon police body and tells them to do their job and make them go away. V's raised off into the sunset.

It's not going to be an "I'm quitting" as there is to be q+a.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on May 25, 2020, 03:58:18 PM
Yeah, it's definitely not a resignation. I expect a sob story, or, as you say, telling people to go fuck themselves.

Of course, between this and the Durham police investigation, all it's doing is keeping it in the headlines.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 25, 2020, 06:12:27 PM
That constant background noise that started up every time he spoke was great. 8/10, highly recommended for future press events.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on May 27, 2020, 02:20:20 AM
20 point drop in polls, 71% think Cummings broke regs. 29% clearly not listening as he stated multiple times how he broke them for reasons beyond the ludicrous.

That rumor is more plausible the more you retell it.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 09, 2020, 01:49:39 PM
I see we are now going Full Potato Culture War over statues.

Our media really is the laziest in the world. Not even bright enough to come up with our own culture war tropes, they just lazily nick whatever the Americans were doing two years ago.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 09, 2020, 02:16:43 PM
At least it will make the transition to ceding sovereignty and being the 51st state easier
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2020, 11:48:52 AM
I'm enjoying the pivot between "Bristol protestors are bad because they did not follow due process" and "Tower Hamlets are bad because they did follow due process".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Nibor the Priest on June 10, 2020, 11:56:28 AM
People: *learn some history*
People: *become horrified to learn that they've been walking past a statue of Sir Slavery Rich-Whitedude every day for the past 20 years*
People: *throw statue in the fucking sea*
Millions of other people: *see this on the news* *learn about slave trader, take time to learn more about slave traders in their own area and what local statuary they may wish to consider throwing in the fucking sea*
Gammons: WHY DO THEY WANT TO DESTROY HISTORY NOW HOW WILL PEOPLE LEARN ANYTHING
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 10, 2020, 12:05:52 PM
It's just like when we tore down all those statues of Hitler and now no-one knows who Hitler was  :sad:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Nibor the Priest on June 10, 2020, 12:09:50 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 10, 2020, 12:05:52 PM
It's just like when we tore down all those statues of Hitler and now no-one knows who Hitler was  :sad:
Last week I was a world-class expert on the life and work of Edward Colston, but now they've thrown his statue in the fucking sea, I don't even know whether he was a slave trader.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 10, 2020, 12:39:57 PM
The fact that they didn't start with the Statue of Oliver Cromwell outside Westminster makes me think they have their priorities out of order
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Nibor the Priest on June 10, 2020, 02:25:59 PM
Honestly, the kind of people that end up as statues, I wouldn't like to be the one who had to rank 'em.

It'd be easier just to rename plinths "naughty steps".
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on June 10, 2020, 02:39:59 PM
"When smashing monuments, save the pedestals. They always come in handy."
    --Stanisław Lem
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on June 10, 2020, 02:48:35 PM
I have to say, I like this new guy. I like them quite a bit. Active, intelligent, has horrible pinko commie America hating values. What more can you ask for?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Nibor the Priest on June 10, 2020, 03:25:15 PM
Quote from: altered on June 10, 2020, 02:48:35 PM
I have to say, I like this new guy. I like them quite a bit. Active, intelligent, has horrible pinko commie America hating values. What more can you ask for?
My bad qualities include disorganisation, anxious depression, poor memory, muttering to myself, a clotting disorder and taking more than my fair share of finger food.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: altered on June 10, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
I got all that AND I'm a lesbian tranny leftist freak, so I don't see an issue here.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 10, 2020, 08:39:20 PM
I make death robots for my corporate masters.

Everyone have some tea.  I got this.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 14, 2020, 04:22:15 PM
Hey cain, what's happening with the mail? Putting the boot in lately and I can't determine if they smell success on starmer like the pre Blair era, hate Johnson because he's literally killing their print readership or hate Johnson because he's porked someone's wife. Its probably all three I'm just not sure on the relative proportions. Long may it continue though as the spite journalism is delightful. Whole articles without house prices.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 14, 2020, 04:48:00 PM
I think it's a mix of things. The Telegraph is now edging out the Mail in terms of "mainstreaming batshit insanity directly from the far-right into the veins of angry dementia patients" so taking down the Graph's PM is certainly a consideration. Stamer has shown himself to be the most boring man alive, somehow, and is basically capitulating on every front in the UK's culture war, to the point of even agreeing with new Tory suggestions for making destruction of statues a criminal offence with double the jail time a rapist would get. So it's hard to get traction for ginning up antics there, and there's very little payout when Starmer is not, in fact, a threat to Viscount Rothermere's millions (see: the donkey farm debacle).

There's also the fact that this is eventually going to blow up in someone's face, and by making it the PM you save the Tories as a group from more systematic levels of scrutiny, despite none of them actually being able to do much better of a job than Boris did. The Times has, I think come to similar conclusions, with the added consideration that their man Gove is waiting in the wings.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 14, 2020, 06:34:31 PM
That would make sense. I assume the mails stalking horse is hunt? No current cabinet position so blameless for the current shit show despite years as health sec. It has been an unusually long time since a leadership challenge. The only thing stopping gove trying now is the planets are not yet fully aligned for the final sacrifices to give proper sustenance to the old ones.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 14, 2020, 07:19:44 PM
I'm not sure who their preferred candidate is, to be honest. The Tory front bench is even weaker than Labour on political talent, IMO, and while Hunt's definitely a possibility, the Tories also don't like losers, as a rule.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 14, 2020, 09:33:14 PM
True, but point at the winner in the current party. Association with corona added to the inevitable brexit fuckups means that the likely winner isn't even playing the game right now. Which says hunt. Gove is just too tentacley and the entire cabinet a doing its best to avoid showing competence at any level. Throwing positive press at anyone not tainted costs nothing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 16, 2020, 10:55:06 PM
Meanwhile...

(https://i.imgur.com/X8QeQZB.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 18, 2020, 10:39:06 PM
Looking at todays outreach to Australia for a super awesome trade deal that will be world beating. I am actually surprised he didn't mention the wonderful niche product, coon cheese.

Probably waiting for raab to reveal he now knows australia is an island too.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 18, 2020, 10:54:17 PM
The UK has precisely jack-shit that Australia needs. Australia needs China and the USA, in that order.  Just because we kneel to the same Queen doesn't make us subservient to the UK, despite what Raab apparently thinks.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 20, 2020, 07:16:28 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ea883VYXsAMJ0Pq?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on June 21, 2020, 12:59:51 AM
Add that to patels links to the monument crowd and there's quite the network emerging.

If any of these people were remotely competent you could start to worry. Instead we just get to worry about the incompetence instead. 22 days or so with over 1k dead and there's still a narrative of the overall toll being 40k, not the actual 60-70k. And knowing this mob it could easily be over 100.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on June 22, 2020, 11:16:51 PM
Well, they're very competent at stoking a culture war. It's about the only things the Tories have going for them right now.

The Reading Park killings + the ridiculous Ash Sarkar conspiracy theories + the shit that just went down with Burnley FC this evening are all perfect fodder for another 5 years of this bullshit, as more and more of the country die off.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on June 23, 2020, 07:07:28 AM
The UK has until Tuesday, to request an extension if Boris wants to avoid no deal.
If thats what he wants then hes going to get it. If it is a negotiating tactic to show the EU he is serious thinking that should it be needed the EU can grant an extension at a last minute in december, he has miscalculated:
There are no self ammending treaties (Maastrict for A50), it would have to go to a referendum in Ireland and poland, the fastest we can turn it around is 12 weeks, and I wouldnt bank on people voting in favour an extension.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2020, 01:17:18 PM
So, the UK is going to implement mandatory masks in shops.

This is, of course, now another fault line in our ever-expanding culture war, because common sense is for cucks or something, IDK.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec1ogsSWkAI89Ou?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec1ohBXWsAUJDvB?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec1ohS5XsAM3ESe?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec1ohomXsAASH6n?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec1qmrjXYAIdBxg?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec1tlMYX0AAAPbF?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 14, 2020, 01:42:26 PM
Hopefully the reaction should be grudging acceptance. I hadn't seen masks around at all, but when they were brought in as mandatory for buses and trains, it seemed to make it socially acceptable to wear them
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on July 14, 2020, 01:50:56 PM
The loudest whining cunt voices on the internet tend to be the same pricks who will do what they they're told, no matter what, on account of they're completely fucking spineless. It's the gormless ones I'm more worried about. Well, okay, no worried about exactly. More like eagerly looking forward to seeing their depressed little maskless faces when they kill the fucking arseholes who spawned them. :evil:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on July 14, 2020, 02:04:39 PM
Aww... That man posted an image of a cut up membership card. That must be how you indicate that you are quite upset in the UK.

You just gotta hit CAPSLOCK and stop repressing. That is how you show folks you are upset.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 14, 2020, 03:50:48 PM
I give it two days before we get grainy, potato-quality footage of enraged gammons attacking teenage shop assistants before being pulled off them by the police.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 17, 2020, 02:11:47 AM
Grayling: so incompetent, he's lost a rigged election.

Fun ahoy next Friday.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2020, 03:29:59 AM
Naturally the Tory spin campaign is coming now, to find a way to blame Labour for Russia's election interference despite their own financial backers being implicated in the report while Labour...simply used a report which had already leaked and was openly available on the web.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 17, 2020, 04:41:52 PM
https://apnews.com/c3c7481ac03f9a2f30179359802a8296

QuoteBritish Prime Minister Boris Johnson charted a different course, announcing that as of Aug. 1 the government was no longer asking people to avoid public transit and would stop advising workers in England to work from home.

Keen to reinvigorate the economy, Johnson wants to see struggling businesses that rely on office workers rebound. He also announced that beauticians, casinos, bowling alleys and skating rinks would be allowed to reopen next month as long as infection rates don't start climbing again.

The prime minister's decision to give employers more leeway to ask their staffs to return to regular work locations appeared to conflict with the views of his chief scientific adviser, who said Thursday that there was "absolutely no reason" to change the work-from-home advice.

Humans.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 17, 2020, 05:56:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2020, 03:29:59 AM
Naturally the Tory spin campaign is coming now, to find a way to blame Labour for Russia's election interference despite their own financial backers being implicated in the report while Labour...simply used a report which had already leaked and was openly available on the web.

Leaked by Russians, therefore labour must do more about antisemitism. That's the current logic, right?

Between this and the kicking vallance gave yesterday, it's going to get funnier. Did you catch his appearance? Was basically thrown kind questions to let him fully put the boot in. Someone's clearly not happy at being taken for a patsy for the past few months and is clearly looking at his future options. A good reference from dom is right out now. Hancock desperate to try and spin dates about lock down despite it kind of being obvious when it fucking happened.

By the end of the year, there's going to be conspiracy theories around that make the 5g nonsense look like serious science. At least we can kind of measure the scale, as you can probably correlate it with job losses and business closures, ergo poverty/hardship and more time to spend being publicly insane on social media.

With the office thing, it's fun to look at how many serviced offices there are across the UK. That's an entire sector quietly facing the wall with few having any interest in protecting them. And they know it. The donations better come in quick or there's going to be some hilarious situations come xmas or so. More than a few council/local gov services are in such places so beyond ridiculous rent hikes or unexpected relocations, or fuck it, just outright closures ahoy.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2020, 07:10:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 17, 2020, 04:41:52 PM
https://apnews.com/c3c7481ac03f9a2f30179359802a8296

QuoteKeen to reinvigorate the economy, Johnson wants to see struggling businesses that rely on office workers rebound.

Humans.

Dead people, famously, drive economic growth.

Quote from: Junkenstein on July 17, 2020, 05:56:17 PM
Leaked by Russians, therefore labour must do more about antisemitism. That's the current logic, right?

Between this and the kicking vallance gave yesterday, it's going to get funnier. Did you catch his appearance? Was basically thrown kind questions to let him fully put the boot in. Someone's clearly not happy at being taken for a patsy for the past few months and is clearly looking at his future options. A good reference from dom is right out now. Hancock desperate to try and spin dates about lock down despite it kind of being obvious when it fucking happened.

By the end of the year, there's going to be conspiracy theories around that make the 5g nonsense look like serious science. At least we can kind of measure the scale, as you can probably correlate it with job losses and business closures, ergo poverty/hardship and more time to spend being publicly insane on social media.

With the office thing, it's fun to look at how many serviced offices there are across the UK. That's an entire sector quietly facing the wall with few having any interest in protecting them. And they know it. The donations better come in quick or there's going to be some hilarious situations come xmas or so. More than a few council/local gov services are in such places so beyond ridiculous rent hikes or unexpected relocations, or fuck it, just outright closures ahoy.

I did indeed catch Vallance's appearance. Not sure why he's suddenly no longer toeing the government line, but I can't say it's not welcome.

I see Hancock is also attempting to muddy the waters beyond when the lockdown began, with his most recent allegation that the death toll numbers are too high because some deaths were counted as being from covid-19 even if a coroner could not determine that and they only had the antibodies in their system. This is completely unlike how the government has also played with the numbers by not counting anyone who hasn't died in a hospital because fuck you peasant, consistency is for cucks.

I suspect the government will find some sneaky way to reward their backers regarding the rented office industry, not that many of these companies were not backing the Tories in the first place.

But if you look at what they're doing to Universities (eliminating "non-profitable courses" and "ensuring their commitment to free speech" as conditions of the bailout), that should provide a clue.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 21, 2020, 02:24:07 PM
Russia report finally out.

No questions answered as no one even bothered to ask questions. I'm guessing that's because the answers would be fucking obvious and rather unpalatable.

I'm actually impressed. To be this level of oblivious and willfully ignorant usually takes a serious brain injury but several successive tory governments have managed to shove rubles in their ears while singing "I can't hear you comrade". It turns out that flogging multi million pound London houses are more important than national security.

Expect photos of Johnson playing tennis with another oligarch by next weekend.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 21, 2020, 02:37:29 PM
I think the most important thing to note about the Russia Report, as Dominic Greive hinted at, is that there is actually no investigation at all into what Russia did during Brexit, and only minimal interest in what it did during the Scottish referendum, while everyone turned a blind eye because of the vast amounts of money being laundered through London.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 21, 2020, 02:54:27 PM
Is there anything to be said for a link between brexit, the act of money laundering, and the EU laws that are coming in to block that with the tax haven laws this year?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 21, 2020, 04:52:57 PM
I'm going to say yes, but Cain probably can provide a better explanation. When you look at the people who pushed it hardest, it's easy to see how much offshore cash and secret illegal accounts will have come into it. Take reeeee-moog. Not a shred of actual patriotism, much more concerned about how much money can be made from shorting the pound and keeping it all tax free.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 21, 2020, 04:56:26 PM
There definitely is, yes. That law has generated huge amounts of controversy and the usual Magic Circle bootlicker suspects have come out in force to write articles decrying said law for their corporate clients. It has a lot of people worried, but then, lots of very rich people seem very weirdly concerned that any kind of marginal tax rate increase will also be the first step towards executing the kulaks, even though most of them don't even pay taxes, so it's hard to get an accurate impression of just how effective this law would actually be.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 21, 2020, 05:05:56 PM
And to take that hypotheses a step further: Europe's requirement for level playing field and alignment on standards on services, would require the same (tax haven closure) correct?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 21, 2020, 05:08:33 PM
Yes. So by removing the UK from it, our rich bastards and Russia's rich bastards certainly have an alignment of interest.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on July 21, 2020, 05:24:27 PM
Ok, but in my mind that now makes No deal go from, likely, to a practical certainty. The EU wont allow a tax haven to have access and those who manage the Russian Portfolios in the Uk will not allow that to be closed.
Hold on to them butts
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 21, 2020, 07:44:22 PM
Is there a handy pie chart or something of dodgy money in London? Surely this could be made from harrods accounts./customer purchases list or something.

I'm guessing Russian cash still smaller than say, saudi. Would just be nice to know where the majority of the influences are coming from by scale. I'm also guessing US cash would not be insignificant.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on July 28, 2020, 09:46:30 PM
Hey Cain, any evidence around of shapps having an affair or heroin problem or something? Flying back, abandoning wife and kids, from a country you promised not to go to, when you also knew it was going to get slapped with quarantine restrictions, is pretty high on the idiot level right now otherwise. And he's got stiff competition with patels "compassionate home office".

Wanted an uninterrupted week to molest an intern? Grayling wants to share some qualudes? All of the above?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on July 28, 2020, 11:04:14 PM
Spending more time not editing his Wikipedia page, no doubt. Beyond that, I suspect he simply expected to be exempt, like so many other Tories have been from the rules.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 03, 2020, 12:36:38 AM
Currently taking bets on the newest Conservative rapist. From information released, I've got a banana on cleverly. Fits the bill from what's been said so far, which is apparently was in cabinet in 19, out in 20, male, in 50's. It becomes a narrow list quickly, and assuming its around the reshuffle around Xmas, he looks likely. It's only a shame that it probably can't be grayling.

This is the new one, not the last one just convicted and awaiting sentencing. Its getting tricky to keep track.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 03, 2020, 07:53:30 AM
Current trends suggest it's Mark Francois, unless he's taking one for the team. He deleted his social media accounts this morning and, wouldn't you know it, he's a 54 year old former minister.

Nice to know that multiple accusations of raping someone isn't grounds for suspension from the Tory Party, however.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 03, 2020, 10:13:31 AM
Suspension? Lets not blow things out of the water, its not like he voted against the party or something abhorrent like that
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 03, 2020, 10:22:11 AM
Latest reporting is that Jacob Rees-Mogg knew about the allegations at least a month ago. He supposedly encouraged the woman in question to seek out the police, but obviously sitting on rape allegations for a month and doing nothing is not a good look.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 03, 2020, 07:54:55 PM
Fortunately, fox is back in the headlines, minus "friend", but  with added Russian jazz. Also 3million worth of untendered corruption. With something silly from gove and one other, the rape may not be back in the headlines this week.

Was about to press post, had a text saying goves wife says she would be OK with dying. Not sure if that means as the designated sacrifice to hastur or just in general to get away from gove.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 23, 2020, 01:46:11 PM
Updated Brexit guidelines, coming through https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12474511/emergency-plans-perfect-storm-no-deal-brexit-coronavirus-second-wave/

QuoteThe Sun has seen the doomsday classified document designed to kickstart ministers into a major planning operation to see off disaster. It reveals:

    One in 20 Town Halls could go bust in a second Covid wave, sparking social care chaos.
    The economic impact of the virus and Brexit could cause public disorder, shortages and price hikes.
    Troops may have to be drafted on to the streets to help the police in the worst-case scenario — 1,500 are already on stand by.
    Social distancing measures and masks will have to continue until 2021 regardless.
    Supplies of food and fuel are all under threat this Christmas if Dover becomes blocked.

Downing Street is pushing hard for a trade deal but is making  contingency plans for an "unruly" exit from the EU transition period at the end of December.

With trade talks looking set to go the wire, there is a risk they collapse — putting up trade barriers overnight on 1 January.

In that scenario planners believe France will force "mandatory controls on UK goods from day one" and between 40 and 70 per cent of hauliers travelling across the Channel may not be ready for this.

That could see flow between Dover and Calais down 45 per cent for three months, triggering long queues of HGVs in Kent.

QuoteIt could lead to shortages of the 30 per cent of our food imported from the EU as well as medicines, chemicals for drinking water purification and fuel supply.

This could trigger water rationing and even power cuts.

Food supply across the country would be hit by panic buying at Christmas, the busiest time of year.

There are also increasing fears in Whitehall that Covid-19 will return with a vengeance in the winter months.

The planners warned that "pandemic influenza, severe flooding, a Covid second wave and an unruly exit from the EU transition period could cause a systemic economic crisis with major impact on ­disposable incomes, unemployment, business activity, international trade and market stability."

It could be combined with likely "coordinated industrial action" as well as shortages risking public disorder and a mental health crisis that will hit the poorest hardest.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 23, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
It seems to me that this is pretty much the same as the last set, with added plauge protocols. Now consider the recession as a force multiplier and full on riots are surely coming by January.

I don't think I've ever seen a disaster planned to happen quite like this. Either that, or there have been remotely competent people handling it so it didn't escalate so much. The latter is unlikely, while the former indicates a true transition to the horrible times. Because none of this is really new. Its just the stunning lack of progress from anyone, on anything is increasingly difficult to just ignore.



Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 29, 2020, 05:17:13 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/aug/28/chris-grayling-resigns-from

Next stop, house of Lords.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 30, 2020, 02:18:21 PM
Tony Abbott being touted as trade thing.

I'm betting heavily that raab lost an onion eating contest with him and this was the stake. Either that or he just ate an onion in front of Johnson until he broke down and offered him a job to just go away.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 30, 2020, 04:46:28 PM
I reckon it's so they can guarantee there won't be a trade deal with Australia, since everyone there fucking hates Tony Abbott. Of course, that might be the overall thinking, "give us a trade deal or we won't recall our negotiator" etc
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 30, 2020, 05:48:48 PM
Ah, the farage gambit.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on August 30, 2020, 10:31:17 PM
Come on - everyone knows that the Australian option is just a negotiating tactic . . . isn't it???
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on August 31, 2020, 12:15:40 AM
I mean, if you really wanted an Australian PM for some unknown reason, why not Kevin Rudd? He's fluent in Mandarin, for goodness sake.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 04, 2020, 02:06:58 PM
So about that "there will probably be enough food" line...

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-food-companies-warn-boris-johnson-has-missed-labelling-deadline-2020-9?r=US&IR=T

QuoteThousands of British food businesses could be left without the correct labelling required to continue selling to the European Union and Northern Ireland after the UK government missed an industry deadline to advise them on what new rules they will have to follow.

Britain will leave the EU's trading rules at the end of this year, after which the labels that British food and drink businesses use will no longer be legally recognised on the continent.

UK trade associations repeatedly warned Prime Minister Boris Johnson's government that the end of August was the absolute deadline for issuing guidance that will allow them to produce new labels in time for January 1.

However, with just four months to go, they are still waiting for clarity from the UK government on the labelling rules they will have to follow in 2021.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on September 04, 2020, 02:46:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 04, 2020, 02:06:58 PM
So about that "there will probably be enough food" line...

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-food-companies-warn-boris-johnson-has-missed-labelling-deadline-2020-9?r=US&IR=T

QuoteThousands of British food businesses could be left without the correct labelling required to continue selling to the European Union and Northern Ireland after the UK government missed an industry deadline to advise them on what new rules they will have to follow.

Britain will leave the EU's trading rules at the end of this year, after which the labels that British food and drink businesses use will no longer be legally recognised on the continent.

UK trade associations repeatedly warned Prime Minister Boris Johnson's government that the end of August was the absolute deadline for issuing guidance that will allow them to produce new labels in time for January 1.

However, with just four months to go, they are still waiting for clarity from the UK government on the labelling rules they will have to follow in 2021.

If the government actually wanted to do it, couldnt they sort it out in a week? How impossibly hard can it be if you hired the required experts?

This just seems like payback against Northern Ireland for not submitting to the Brexit, regardless of their own economical and human loses they will suffer.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 04, 2020, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on September 04, 2020, 02:46:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 04, 2020, 02:06:58 PM
So about that "there will probably be enough food" line...

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-food-companies-warn-boris-johnson-has-missed-labelling-deadline-2020-9?r=US&IR=T

QuoteThousands of British food businesses could be left without the correct labelling required to continue selling to the European Union and Northern Ireland after the UK government missed an industry deadline to advise them on what new rules they will have to follow.

Britain will leave the EU's trading rules at the end of this year, after which the labels that British food and drink businesses use will no longer be legally recognised on the continent.

UK trade associations repeatedly warned Prime Minister Boris Johnson's government that the end of August was the absolute deadline for issuing guidance that will allow them to produce new labels in time for January 1.

However, with just four months to go, they are still waiting for clarity from the UK government on the labelling rules they will have to follow in 2021.

If the government actually wanted to do it, couldnt they sort it out in a week? How impossibly hard can it be if you hired the required experts?

This just seems like payback against Northern Ireland for not submitting to the Brexit, regardless of their own economical and human loses they will suffer.
Even in the best case scenario of a deal being signed it no longer solves the customs issues (the UK is leaving the common market Jan 1st even if it had the most intimate of free trade agreements).

About 6 months back the UK gov kind of handwaved away the need and said any introduction to customs checks will be gradual as the infrastructure wont be in place and will take time.
France responded saying full checks will be there day 1.
Ireland is currently chartering every ship we can as we wont be able to send trucks across the UK, which puts us in the shit position of competing with the UK for shipping availability: If things get bad the UK will try to mitigate the issues by hiring more ships and increasing traffic at the ports, but they are finite and have limited availability.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 04, 2020, 05:15:45 PM
So on January 1st, the UK will learn what "trade velocity" means.

I am quite positive that Farage and Johnson and their creatures knew this was going to happen, and are in fact counting on it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 04, 2020, 06:12:09 PM
Yeah, basically, I think they have shorted everything in the UK.
Like trump devaluing specific industries with tariffs and I wouldn't be surprised that is what they were doing. On the other side I'm fairly certain that this is what the EU want as well, Boris is adamant that he wont have the level playing field, but a week after no deal the same offer will be there.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on September 05, 2020, 08:07:52 AM
This is shaping up to be almost as fucking hilarious as a second trump term :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 06, 2020, 11:09:00 PM
https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/int00t/uk_plan_to_undermine_withdrawal_treaty_threatens/

Floating the idea of overriding the withdrawal agreement (an international treaty), by not following through with the commitment to NI.

This will:
Immediately end negotiations, resulting in no deal. New negotiations will be vetoed until the UK reverses this position.

Have Ireland seek sanctions from the guarantors of the good friday agreement, including the U.S

Force the need for borders in NI which will Immediately lead to the restarting of the troubles.

Destroy any little faith in the international community that the uk intends to follow its agreements, the same international community it now wants to sign trade deals with
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 06, 2020, 11:40:20 PM
And yet, this is also absolutely no surprise to anyone who has been following Brexit in any level of detail. It's been all but inevitable for a while now.

Johnson is also saying tonight that if there's no agreement by October 15th that we should "move on", because of course a trade deal with our closest nations is purely optional and definitely not a necessity in the 21st century. Especially when you're an island.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on September 06, 2020, 11:49:23 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 06, 2020, 11:40:20 PM
And yet, this is also absolutely no surprise to anyone who has been following Brexit in any level of detail. It's been all but inevitable for a while now.

Johnson is also saying tonight that if there's no agreement by October 15th that we should "move on", because of course a trade deal with our closest nations is purely optional and definitely not a necessity in the 21st century. Especially when you're an island.

Yeah, but not just any old island, eh?

Fairest Isle, All Isles Excelling
Fairest isle, all isles excelling,
Seat of pleasure and of love
Venus here will choose her dwelling,
And forsake her Cyprian grove.
Cupid from his fav'rite nation
Care and envy will remove;
Jealousy, that poisons passion,
And despair, that dies for love.

Gentle murmurs, sweet complaining,
Sighs that blow the fire of love
Soft repulses, kind disdaining,
Shall be all the pains you prove.
Ev'ry swain shall pay his duty,
Grateful ev'ry nymph shall prove;
And as these excel in beauty,
Those shall be renown'd for love.

https://lyricstranslate.com

Pretty sure the last line confirms we are well on the way to being royally fucked!
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 07, 2020, 12:03:33 AM
Sorry, that's not Rule Britannia, the most patriotic song of all time. Your dedication to the cause and fighting Intolerant Left Wokeism is now suspect, citizen.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 07, 2020, 08:56:36 AM
I wonder if this comes close enough to "wrecking the Good Friday agreement" for US congress? Remember, Pelosi has said before now that if the Good Friday agreement is undermined, a trade deal with the UK will be vetoed. I don't trust the Democrats to not sell us all out to Big Pharma and Big Insurance in any eventual trade deal, but given Good Friday is part of Clinton's legacy and the large Irish-American voting constituences on the east coast, I can certainly see a logic in being invested in that aspect of Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 07, 2020, 09:11:15 AM
Several republicans have as well, while it was Clintons legacy there are a lot of republicans appeal to Irish American voters.
It's speculative, to be honest I could just see trump putting the sanctions on to the UK to force the gov into a position of further desperation and more favorable terms for him in a trade deal, and reneging on the WA and GFA give him the leverage to do so while looking like he is doing it to be a good guy.

I wouldn't be surprised if other countries followed suit, for that same predatory purpose
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 07, 2020, 09:18:31 AM
Oh yeah, definitely. With exemptions for Trump's own UK-based business interests, of course. And other countries are not going to be impressed by our continual bad faith negotiating and apparent willingness to run roughshod over past and present agreements. Japan, for example. Hell, Australia and India are not going to be impressed either.

And in other good news

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/AA74/production/_114263634_uk_daily_cases_with_ra_6sep-nc.png)
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 09, 2020, 10:39:22 AM
Get ready for lockdown 2, electric boogaloo.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 09, 2020, 03:08:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2020, 09:18:31 AM
Oh yeah, definitely. With exemptions for Trump's own UK-based business interests, of course. And other countries are not going to be impressed by our continual bad faith negotiating and apparent willingness to run roughshod over past and present agreements. Japan, for example. Hell, Australia and India are not going to be impressed either.

And in other good news

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/AA74/production/_114263634_uk_daily_cases_with_ra_6sep-nc.png)

Well, that's the thing, isn't it?  I would not trade with the USA or the UK if I had any other option, because they have both demonstrated that they will break a deal on a whim.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 09, 2020, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 09, 2020, 10:39:22 AM
Get ready for lockdown 2, electric boogaloo.

https://apnews.com/f5393ade3062dd44fb5f28769c48c679
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 09, 2020, 03:53:27 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 09, 2020, 03:08:26 PM
Well, that's the thing, isn't it?  I would not trade with the USA or the UK if I had any other option, because they have both demonstrated that they will break a deal on a whim.

Alexa, what's a "stable regulatory environment for foreign investors"?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 10, 2020, 07:53:48 AM
The following extensions are up in January;
Open skies - ability to fly and land in europe
Euratom - access to radio isotopes such as the ones used in MRI machines
ISEM - the ability to buy and sell electricity on the European market

Its shit, its vindictive, but if the WA isnt implemented and a border is needed in NI. the temporary extension of each of these will end.
There is a security clause in each that allows member states to block non eu members.
Greece used it on Turkey to a lesser extent.

The hope would  be that by ramping up the pressure the UK would revisit the commitment it already made for NI.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2020, 09:48:01 PM
OH GOOD

https://apnews.com/f07aa866c208e8aae34be1377c789fbf
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 10, 2020, 11:17:54 PM
Its swung past that already, options on sanctions being discussed
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 10, 2020, 11:29:09 PM
And rightfully so. The AG's statement on the legality of the legislation was a disgrace. This is every bit a sledgehammer at the knees of the concept of international law as the Iraq War was.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2020, 11:31:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 10, 2020, 11:29:09 PM
And rightfully so. The AG's statement on the legality of the legislation was a disgrace. This is every bit a sledgehammer at the knees of the concept of international law as the Iraq War was.

Look, I'm not suggesting Oliver Cromwell, I'm just suggesting Oliver Cromwell.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on September 10, 2020, 11:33:44 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 10, 2020, 11:29:09 PM
And rightfully so. The AG's statement on the legality of the legislation was a disgrace. This is every bit a sledgehammer at the knees of the concept of international law as the Iraq War was.

Funny I just thought of Iraq too, when I read "Critics say reneging on a legally binding international commitment will trash Britain's reputation for upholding law and order." Like, we're a walking fucking warcrime It'd be easier to kick a woman square in the nuts than do any damage to our reputation at this point.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 10, 2020, 11:36:23 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 10, 2020, 11:29:09 PM
And rightfully so. The AG's statement on the legality of the legislation was a disgrace. This is every bit a sledgehammer at the knees of the concept of international law as the Iraq War was.

The only hope is enough rebellion in their own party or the Lords blocking it.
Im not sure what they are thinking. Even if they try and avoid the WA now it will be prerequisite to starting off talks again in the future
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 10, 2020, 11:39:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2020, 11:31:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 10, 2020, 11:29:09 PM
And rightfully so. The AG's statement on the legality of the legislation was a disgrace. This is every bit a sledgehammer at the knees of the concept of international law as the Iraq War was.

Look, I'm not suggesting Oliver Cromwell, I'm just suggesting Oliver Cromwell.
If it wasnt for Cromwell ravaging Ireland in the first place, this wouldn't even be an issue, this is his legacy continuing to unfold
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 11, 2020, 12:21:55 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 10, 2020, 11:39:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 10, 2020, 11:31:41 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 10, 2020, 11:29:09 PM
And rightfully so. The AG's statement on the legality of the legislation was a disgrace. This is every bit a sledgehammer at the knees of the concept of international law as the Iraq War was.

Look, I'm not suggesting Oliver Cromwell, I'm just suggesting Oliver Cromwell.
If it wasnt for Cromwell ravaging Ireland in the first place, this wouldn't even be an issue, this is his legacy continuing to unfold

Cromwell didn't actually ravage Ireland.  He was there for six months, and paid chieftains to attack each other.

Which they had previously done for free.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 11, 2020, 04:19:24 AM
The war campaign was one short and bloody factor, the penal laws targeting Catholics was lasting and destructive. It also paved the way for the land and subsequently food laws that caused the famine.
Yes the clans warred, and some worked for him, they all came to regret that
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 11, 2020, 11:01:20 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 10, 2020, 11:36:23 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 10, 2020, 11:29:09 PM
And rightfully so. The AG's statement on the legality of the legislation was a disgrace. This is every bit a sledgehammer at the knees of the concept of international law as the Iraq War was.

The only hope is enough rebellion in their own party or the Lords blocking it.
Im not sure what they are thinking. Even if they try and avoid the WA now it will be prerequisite to starting off talks again in the future

One Tory MP has said he will vote against it, so far. Only...79 more to rebel!

We're fucked.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 14, 2020, 04:00:57 PM
Yeah, there isnt enough resistance there to block it. Lords might punt it back but they will be overruled

Meanwhile the EU has threatend the Nuclear option
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-clearing-exclusive/exclusive-eu-to-delay-euro-clearing-decision-due-to-brexit-divorce-threat-source-idUKKBN2651XG?utm_source=reddit.com

Remember the clearing houses that were too big to tamper with even with brexit, that 1Tn goes through per day, roger mentioned it way back right after the vote just happened. If the UK tears up the WA, the EU is going to press the big red button on the world economy
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 14, 2020, 04:02:13 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 14, 2020, 04:00:57 PM
Yeah, there isnt enough resistance there to block it. Lords might punt it back but they will be overruled

Meanwhile the EU has threatend the Nuclear option
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-clearing-exclusive/exclusive-eu-to-delay-euro-clearing-decision-due-to-brexit-divorce-threat-source-idUKKBN2651XG?utm_source=reddit.com

Remember the clearing houses that were too big to tamper with even with brexit, that 1Tn goes through per day, roger mentioned it way back right after the vote just happened. If the UK tears up the WA, the EU is going to press the big red button on the world economy

Most of the world has been firewalling their economies against this the best that they can.  The UK may have noticed this, or perhaps it was obscured by the plague.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 14, 2020, 04:05:05 PM
Yeah, the main damage will be to the EU and the UK, Asia and the US seem to have taken measures to use smaller clearing houses for the Euro
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 14, 2020, 06:30:58 PM
https://apnews.com/4c9f212d19b95b5f58fc29aaae5f1edf
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 14, 2020, 09:36:44 PM
This fucking "blockade" story they are pushing:
The choice was simple, border across the land, dividing Ireland, and Ireland will never ratify a trade deal, or a border down the sea.
Free movement of goods only stops if the UK drops its standards on foods and good.

And if, if they had a point to complain on that the time was last year: the outcome was clearly stated and reported on, and complained about by the DUP, and then ratified and voted in by their party in the international treaty that was signed in January.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on September 14, 2020, 10:40:20 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 14, 2020, 09:36:44 PM
This fucking "blockade" story they are pushing:
The choice was simple, border across the land, dividing Ireland, and Ireland will never ratify a trade deal, or a border down the sea.
Free movement of goods only stops if the UK drops its standards on foods and good.

And if, if they had a point to complain on that the time was last year: the outcome was clearly stated and reported on, and complained about by the DUP, and then ratified and voted in by their party in the international treaty that was signed in January.

The problem is that you are dealing with an even sloppier version of Trump.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 15, 2020, 12:07:16 AM
Remember, this is the Brexit deal that was so important that 20 MPs were expelled for not voting for it, Parliament was shut down to strongarm it into passing it and an election was called on the basis of it.

Just remember that, when you hear Johnson or any of his bootlickers in the Cabinet, in Parliament or even in the press bemoaning how terrible a deal this is for the UK.

Oh, btw, that trade deal with Japan the UK signed? Not only will it add a whopping 0.07% to our GDP, the terms of the deal are worse than the ones that the EU got with Japan. So, uh, good job there.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Pergamos on September 15, 2020, 01:57:41 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 14, 2020, 10:40:20 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 14, 2020, 09:36:44 PM
This fucking "blockade" story they are pushing:
The choice was simple, border across the land, dividing Ireland, and Ireland will never ratify a trade deal, or a border down the sea.
Free movement of goods only stops if the UK drops its standards on foods and good.

And if, if they had a point to complain on that the time was last year: the outcome was clearly stated and reported on, and complained about by the DUP, and then ratified and voted in by their party in the international treaty that was signed in January.

The problem is that you are dealing with an even sloppier version of Trump.

One without the world's largest military to enforce his whims.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on September 15, 2020, 09:18:16 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 15, 2020, 12:07:16 AM
Remember, this is the Brexit deal that was so important that 20 MPs were expelled for not voting for it, Parliament was shut down to strongarm it into passing it and an election was called on the basis of it.

Just remember that, when you hear Johnson or any of his bootlickers in the Cabinet, in Parliament or even in the press bemoaning how terrible a deal this is for the UK.

Oh, btw, that trade deal with Japan the UK signed? Not only will it add a whopping 0.07% to our GDP, the terms of the deal are worse than the ones that the EU got with Japan. So, uh, good job there.

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere but the Japan deal was one of the recent EU ones so it includes a favoritism clause: If any nation gets better trade terms the EU one has to match it, so at best the UK can break even and match the terms they would have in the EU, the same is in Canada and Singapore and that horrible Mercoser one that's in the works

Brexit has yet to demonstrate any benefit to the UK Economy that I can see
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 15, 2020, 07:01:05 PM
I'm pretty sure the only "benefits" at this point will be UK employers being able to opt-out of European legislation like the Working Time Directive, allowing them to ultimately squeeze their employees with lower wages.

Which of course will make it harder to get a trade deal with the EU, because the EU knows having a floating sweatshop/money laundering service next door means it won't be competing on an even level with EU companies.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on September 16, 2020, 09:58:04 PM
Currently taking bets on patels next scheme, current favourite is inform on friends and neighbours for FABULOUS PRIZES.

Also senior tory law bod resigns over the whole breaking International law thing. Nothing unusual, grayling mooted as replacement.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 17, 2020, 11:46:26 AM
No, Boris has now intervened so we're only to snitch on neighbours in hot tubes, having wild "Animal House" style parties now.

I suspect Patel's next scheme will be "see someone who looks a bit foreign? Report them! they might have stowed away on a boat".

I also hear that Boris may have staved off a Parliamentary rebellion by allowing Parliamentary oversight on the legislation. No actual changes mooted so far, so the looming threat of EU sanctions still exist, but at least Parliament will have their mostly toothless authority respected, and that's what really matters.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on September 17, 2020, 02:22:01 PM
Convenient https://www.itv.com/news/london/2020-09-14/grenfell-files-lost-forever-after-laptop-wiped-inquiry-hears

QuoteSome emails, documents and design drawings relating to the Grenfell Tower refurbishment appear to have been lost forever after being wiped from a laptop, the inquiry into the fire has heard.

Design manager Daniel Anketell-Jones, who worked for cladding specialists Harley Facades until March 2016, told the hearing he erased his work computer of all files after agreeing to keep the device despite leaving the firm.

The electrical and mechanical engineering graduate told the inquiry on Monday he made the "assumption" his work would remain on the Harley Facades server, which it did not, and denied a claim he arranged for his email file to be deleted from the firm's internal systems.

"I believed everything would be kept on the company server because all the laptops just attached into the server and all the emails were retained on there," he said.

In his witness statement, Harley managing director Ray Bailey said he believed every Harley employee who worked on the revamp was able to pass on emails in the days following the June 2017 fire – except Mr Anketell-Jones.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2020, 12:06:31 PM
London's back on a Tier 2 lockdown, yeah baby.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 15, 2020, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 15, 2020, 12:06:31 PM
London's back on a Tier 2 lockdown, yeah baby.

Eventually people will learn that a pandemic doesn't end just because it becomes boring and/or expensive and inconvenient.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 15, 2020, 05:25:33 PM
Hah, the Tories aren't going to learn.

They'll just let people die.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2020, 10:18:04 AM
Quote from: Cain on October 15, 2020, 05:25:33 PM
They'll just let people die.

Speaking of which, 316 MPs are just fine with undercover police killing you for no damn reason whatsoever and it being legal.

Just in case anyone thought I was exaggerating.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 16, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
Isn't there a precedent of undercover cops going bad, like the guys who stole dread pirate roberts drug money, not so comfortable with them also then having legal immunity for killing their competition
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on October 16, 2020, 12:55:03 PM
I just read Cain's FB post about this, and I'm fairly stunned.  What sort of fear is fueling this?  It's like the Patriot Act on steroids, but with no 9/11 to kick things off.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2020, 02:58:37 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 16, 2020, 12:45:13 PM
Isn't there a precedent of undercover cops going bad, like the guys who stole dread pirate roberts drug money, not so comfortable with them also then having legal immunity for killing their competition

Yeah they get away with too much shit as it is, I'm not sure legalising it is the way to go.

Quote from: LMNO on October 16, 2020, 12:55:03 PM
What sort of fear is fueling this?  It's like the Patriot Act on steroids, but with no 9/11 to kick things off.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. That's the most worrying part. Oh there's been some murmurs about "Russian interference" and how not letting the cops kill whoever they want lets the FSB win but that's mostly journos trolling leftist critics and the Labour Party.

So is it in preparation for something, like mass crackdowns after No Deal Brexit goes bad? Maybe, but no-one's saying.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 16, 2020, 03:12:15 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 16, 2020, 02:58:37 PM

So is it in preparation for something, like mass crackdowns after No Deal Brexit goes bad? Maybe, but no-one's saying.
:eek: Um, that sounds like food riots
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: LMNO on October 16, 2020, 03:15:31 PM
Ah, so this clears the way for gunning down Brexit rioters in the street.  That.... almost makes sense, in a "worst possible timeline" type of way.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on October 16, 2020, 03:16:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 16, 2020, 12:55:03 PM
[...] What sort of fear is fueling this?  [...]

.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2020, 05:05:10 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 16, 2020, 03:12:15 PM
:eek: Um, that sounds like food riots

Quote from: LMNO on October 16, 2020, 03:15:31 PM
Ah, so this clears the way for gunning down Brexit rioters in the street.  That.... almost makes sense, in a "worst possible timeline" type of way.

Maybe. But it also doesn't really make sense, because then why not just give those powers to all officers?

Maybe it's about cementing Tory rule for forever. They're explicitly not ruling out these powers being used on unions, with even a modicum of oversight. Keep the unions on the back foot and demoralised, keep Labour in the centre. Keep Labour in the centre, beat them on nonsense culture war idiocy.  They prevent another Corbyn, who I truly believe drove the centre and right in this country crazy, and they prevent any systematic changes from the left. They already have the centre and the right locked down, hooray for another 40 years of uninterrupted Tory rule.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on October 16, 2020, 07:11:50 PM
Best bit of hope for the future I've heard lately :"I'm praying that Johnson is the Savile of uk politics"

I didn't have the heart to tell him that the black moon is in ascendance so the worm-that-walks will soon be fully summoned to this realm by gove.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2020, 04:16:17 AM
Break it down for me, guys:  What happens on January 21st?

I don't mean "disaster," I know that.  What specific catastrophes happen on that Friday?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on October 20, 2020, 07:18:47 AM
Jan first isnt it?

In a no deal scenario imports and exports get 20% slapped on.

A truck with food products needs a permit of transit per food type.

Every truck will need to go through full inspection (current rate is 1 in 50) causing backlogs in kent and delays in calais

Any live animal transport will need vet sign off, this is for food only, no pets for travel will be allowed

Trucks that normally do three or four drop offs on the continent will only be allowed single set down and return

The ability to import and export electricity via the single market expires including the ability to buy discounted wholesale prices on gas and oil

Access to europol or raising arrest warrents in europe goes from a day to six months

Access to european criminal databases ends

If things go really bad (ie the uk doesnt uphold the Northern Ireland part of the withdrawal agreement), pilots wont be insured to land in eu airports, the flights themselves cannot cross eu airspace

Access to euratom is ended which is the only supplier of the radio isotope for ct/MRI machines

Some financial services will immediately lose access, but not the clearing houses this being the card the uk has to play over the EU. It will take between 5 and 10 years but all Euro currency clearing will move back within the EU.

Rights of citizens living abroad end including their insurance and healthcare though countries are expected to allow people to nationalise and take up the countries passport.

Drivers licences wont be recognised, annoying for traveling, detrimental to delivery truck drivers

Access to the european gps may end right away or be staged, if right away location services turn off.

Permits of transport of chemicals for textiles under the echa ends which would affect manufacturing

There's probably more but I cant think of it.
Most things can be overcome but will cost business, the big difficulty is the 4-5 hour transit of goods becoming a 24 hour full red tape nightmare which could reduce the availability of some goods for consumers on the shelves
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on October 20, 2020, 06:52:40 PM
Just those are enough to sink the ship.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 21, 2020, 04:19:18 PM
Also the furlough scheme for the lockdown is over, yet the UK will very likely be going into a second lockdown between December and February.

There's already a large increase in unemployment due to Covid.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on October 22, 2020, 11:12:23 PM
The Tories have now reached such cartoonish levels of villainy that even Farage can't support them on the "starving children" thing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 02, 2020, 10:06:32 AM
Lockdown 2 is coming.

I will report how bad the panic-buying situation is after I visit the shops today. I actually do need to visit the shops today, I'm not going simply to buy shit needlessly.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 02, 2020, 11:41:23 AM
They are doing it so there will be a somewhat normal Christmas, if they had followed the advice: (lockdown two weeks ago) it could have been four weeks instead of longer.
However, students returning home for Christmas is guaranteed to cause a new spike around the first two weeks of Jan. Meaning the spike will coincide with the other unpleasantness, which the Tories probably planned.
Delays in Kent: Covid, shortages of items: Covid panic buying
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 02, 2020, 12:31:30 PM
Well, they're not closing the schools either, and they are a major source of current infections. And a month-long lockdown is entirely inadequate. I agree, it will spike over Xmas and we will have a combined lockdown and economic shock from Brexit.

With Farage leading his new death cult, aka the "anti-lockdown" Reform Party, it's going to be a fun few months.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 02, 2020, 02:44:07 PM
Look, it's got to get worse before it gets worse.

I'm just constantly laughing at all the "bullied by scientists" lines. "forced to confront reality and your own failings" would be more accurate.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 02, 2020, 02:47:50 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on November 02, 2020, 02:44:07 PM
Look, it's got to get worse before it gets worse.

I'm just constantly laughing at all the "bullied by scientists" lines. "forced to confront reality and your own failings" would be more accurate.

It's amazing.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 02, 2020, 06:59:16 PM
I'm guessing the resistance to shutting schools is so when it's not going so well in the next 2 weeks you can now blame children directly.

My favourite part is, as usual, waiting 4-5 days to do the extremely urgent thing.

Bets on first cabinet minister to be caught breaking regs? I've got 30p on sharma.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 05, 2020, 08:15:58 PM
Hey, here's something to look forward to in the New Year . . .
https://nation.cymru/news/trucks-to-wales-from-ireland-will-have-to-drive-to-england-for-check-in-after-brexit-transition/
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 06, 2020, 11:41:58 AM
That's.... That doesn't work, the whole point of customs declaration is you need to control it at point of entry:

If the deliveries are for the UK trucks wont bother going down half way across the country to declare they will just go to destination. The only ones who will follow this were likely already heading for the channel tunnel.

Piracy is about to become rife, Ireland is really bad for drugs, smuggled cigs etc but this could also exacerbate the more serious things like human trafficking
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 06, 2020, 01:15:23 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 06, 2020, 11:41:58 AM
That's.... That doesn't work, the whole point of customs declaration is you need to control it at point of entry:

If the deliveries are for the UK trucks wont bother going down half way across the country to declare they will just go to destination. The only ones who will follow this were likely already heading for the channel tunnel.

Piracy is about to become rife, Ireland is really bad for drugs, smuggled cigs etc but this could also exacerbate the more serious things like human trafficking

Yeah, I reckon that's what Boris and his boys want . . . Batten down the hatches, shit's about to become real. Escaping to Ireland will become even harder if/when Pembrokeshire loses our ferry ports
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 13, 2020, 10:38:02 PM
Cummings gone, cane gone, shitshow due to escalate in 3 days or so.

50/50 Cummings kills Johnsons pmship by a week due to horrendous blackmail.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2020, 12:37:14 PM
Carrie Symonds is now our PM apparently.

I mean, I suppose someone has to do the job since Boris isn't, but I'd prefer an elected official.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 14, 2020, 03:51:50 PM
She is honestly an improvement over captain brexit
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 14, 2020, 07:12:09 PM
I'm assuming there was some kind of "pick me or your hussy" row. And after most of a day, Boris realised that kicking the new partner and kid would be a hard sell to the press.

Pretty sure the "bad sacking" is more accurate than the "had a laugh and left" story that Cummings is trying to push. Out the door with a box of your shit and a face that looks like you've just had an unfortunate syphilis result isn't quite stacking up with good japes.

Guess we get to find out about the rumors of Johnson assaulting Cummings wife officially in a few days. Allegedly d notice on that.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2020, 09:49:37 PM
Symonds was CCHQ Director of Comms at, like, 25 or something, wasn't she? There's no way she didn't get her position because of who she's with. I would say that makes for good blackmail material...but then I remember how the Jennifer Acuri business was handled.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 14, 2020, 10:08:44 PM
Nice tool: hxxps://sophieehill.shinyapps.io/my-little-crony/

And Cummings might just let people know how many kids Johnson has. With this ongoing level of secrecy it must be double digits.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 15, 2020, 05:41:15 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-15/u-k-hints-brexit-talks-could-be-extended-as-disgreements-remain
This is a good sign but
If an extension is needed we have a real problem here:

The time for extension in article 50 expired, there is no mechanism or treaty that allows for all the access a new extension requires.

A new treaty is needed, it can be done, I dont think anyone will object... BUT...
Several countries in the eu are constitutional Republics and to ratify a treaty of extension require referenda.

I have no doubt that it would go through.
BUT... the fastest a referendum can be done in ireland is 12 weeks, to allow for both sides a chance to debate. The 12 weeks cant be shortend because it is in the constitution also.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 16, 2020, 12:28:36 PM
Yeah, the UK doesn't understand that two sides being willing to talk is required for negotiations.

Like, the UK would be very upset at what you just said, if it understood how the EU worked or grasped the above.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on November 16, 2020, 02:20:10 PM
I just saw the pictures of the giant cement stopper they put in the kent flood plain and shaking my head, there just doesnt seem to be a bottom to the ineptitude, the previous bottom for me was Grayling and the multi million shipping contract to the company that did not own a ship but this tops it.
I'm not sure the flooding issues can even be fixed in the short term
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 16, 2020, 03:10:03 PM
Quote from: Faust on November 16, 2020, 02:20:10 PM
I just saw the pictures of the giant cement stopper they put in the kent flood plain and shaking my head, there just doesnt seem to be a bottom to the ineptitude, the previous bottom for me was Grayling and the multi million shipping contract to the company that did not own a ship but this tops it.
I'm not sure the flooding issues can even be fixed in the short term

That was a thing of GLORY.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 16, 2020, 03:49:48 PM
I mean, the thing is it looks like ineptitude but consider this: £1.5 billion has gone in government contracts, this year alone, to companies that didn't even exist last year and are owned by people related to Tory MPs or senior officials.

It's corruption, on a vast scale. Roberto Saviano, the fantastic Italian investigative journalist, considers the UK to be the most corrupt country in the developed world. Remember, this guy is not only from Italy, he's from Naples, a city the Camorra explicitly and openly run. And he considers this country worse.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on November 16, 2020, 04:01:27 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 16, 2020, 03:49:48 PM
I mean, the thing is it looks like ineptitude but consider this: £1.5 billion has gone in government contracts, this year alone, to companies that didn't even exist last year and are owned by people related to Tory MPs or senior officials.

It's corruption, on a vast scale. Roberto Saviano, the fantastic Italian investigative journalist, considers the UK to be the most corrupt country in the developed world. Remember, this guy is not only from Italy, he's from Naples, a city the Camorra explicitly and openly run. And he considers this country worse.

Yeah, the lead vaccine contractor in the "Warp Speed" program over here was a dude in a condo.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on November 16, 2020, 04:09:09 PM
Sounds about right. Here it's either Serco - who are neck-deep in with the Tories nowadays - or the aforementioned companies that never existed before now. I mean, I can go on Companies House and register United Vaccine Solutions Ltd in 10 minutes, but I bet I won't get any government contracts.

You would expect the press to report on things like this, but the press are too busy obsessing over the micro-dramas of Number 10 staffing to pay attention to the actual pandemic, let alone the corruption behind the contracts to "manage" the pandemic.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on November 18, 2020, 10:05:51 AM
Quote from: Cain on November 16, 2020, 04:09:09 PM
Sounds about right. Here it's either Serco - who are neck-deep in with the Tories nowadays - or the aforementioned companies that never existed before now. I mean, I can go on Companies House and register United Vaccine Solutions Ltd in 10 minutes, but I bet I won't get any government contracts.

You would expect the press to report on things like this, but the press are too busy obsessing over the micro-dramas of Number 10 staffing to pay attention to the actual pandemic, let alone the corruption behind the contracts to "manage" the pandemic.

But the nice thing about having all these former government services neatly outsourced to shitshows like Capita & Serco is that - if we ever get a proper labour government again - it will be a doddle to just grab them by the short and curlies and re-nationalise them . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on December 03, 2020, 08:08:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on November 16, 2020, 04:09:09 PM
Sounds about right. Here it's either Serco - who are neck-deep in with the Tories nowadays - or the aforementioned companies that never existed before now. I mean, I can go on Companies House and register United Vaccine Solutions Ltd in 10 minutes, but I bet I won't get any government contracts.

You would expect the press to report on things like this, but the press are too busy obsessing over the micro-dramas of Number 10 staffing to pay attention to the actual pandemic, let alone the corruption behind the contracts to "manage" the pandemic.

Slowly getting attention now. 500 odd companies without any real tender process awarded contracts and cash, more than a few pr firms in for over 500. Hancocks old pup landlord mate even got one. To supply medical gear. Sourcing said gear from a company already supplying said gear to government.

The levels of corruption are pushing guillotine levels. 12 billion on a shoddy and now forgotten app. You know what else 12 billion could have got you? About 1% of google. Now it's not majority shareholder level, granted, but I'm pretty sure if you had a word they'd sort it out for you.

Hells, you'd even get a nice divvy and ridiculous range and reach for any pr campaign you'd care to run. You might even get the fuckers to pay a bit of tax too. A threat to dump 12 billion worth of shares would have other shareholders pacify you a bit. If we're going to do the corrupt corporate capitalism thing then at least task functional companies and stop believing fucking capita and g4s can find their arse in the dark.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 08, 2020, 04:49:53 PM
Fun read.

https://westcountrybylines.co.uk/brexit-is-the-uks-tulip-mania/
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 08, 2020, 05:34:28 PM
Tulips have a tangible value though, there isnt a single benefit to brexit

Some movement today, the treaty breaking stuff was dropped and the LPF has quietly dropped off the disagreements list so it call comes down to fish
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 08, 2020, 05:38:02 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 08, 2020, 05:34:28 PM
Tulips have a tangible value though, there isnt a single benefit to brexit


It does if you're gambling on collapse.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 08, 2020, 05:59:33 PM
They could be disaster capitalists, I know Moggs father wrote the book about doing exactly something like this, but I am assuming the majority are planning on at one point transferring their wealth back into the UK which would mean the crash needs to be recoverable from within ten years or so
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 08, 2020, 06:31:20 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 08, 2020, 05:59:33 PM
They could be disaster capitalists, I know Moggs father wrote the book about doing exactly something like this, but I am assuming the majority are planning on at one point transferring their wealth back into the UK which would mean the crash needs to be recoverable from within ten years or so

Isn't Farage already living abroad?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 08, 2020, 07:20:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on December 08, 2020, 06:31:20 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 08, 2020, 05:59:33 PM
They could be disaster capitalists, I know Moggs father wrote the book about doing exactly something like this, but I am assuming the majority are planning on at one point transferring their wealth back into the UK which would mean the crash needs to be recoverable from within ten years or so

Isn't Farage already living abroad?

Hes been cosying up to a gig in the US but trump losing may have put an end to that, and his wife and kids have german or french passports so probably
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 09, 2020, 07:36:05 PM
A lot of people who refused to support Labour in the last election now saying that this fucked up Brexit isn't their fault.

Yes, yes it is. You expected a party to go from 30 seats to dominating Parliament in a single election despite this having never happened in all of history and the polls not supporting it, and then helped torpedo the party offering the choice between a soft Brexit or a referendum. This is as much on you and your inability to read the basic political climate as it is on the people who voted to leave.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 09, 2020, 09:13:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 09, 2020, 07:36:05 PM
A lot of people who refused to support Labour in the last election now saying that this fucked up Brexit isn't their fault.

Yes, yes it is. You expected a party to go from 30 seats to dominating Parliament in a single election despite this having never happened in all of history and the polls not supporting it, and then helped torpedo the party offering the choice between a soft Brexit or a referendum. This is as much on you and your inability to read the basic political climate as it is on the people who voted to leave.

Yeah, you guys have your own incrementalist "bernie or bust" crowd.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on December 31, 2020, 06:19:49 PM
OK then, the clock is ticking down . . .  and twitter seems to have caught the mood of the room
"EU lays down a royal flush. UK looks at own cards: Mr Bun the Baker, Pikachu, a Shadowmage, a fireball spell, and the Fool"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on December 31, 2020, 09:19:38 PM
At least the basic deal was reached, lot of the chaos will be averted.
With the level playing field the EU did get what it wants: the uk like a rocket bound for distant galaxies failing to break from the planets gravity is now trapped in a stable orbit.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on December 31, 2020, 10:01:01 PM
Yeah, the deal's a shit sandwich, but at least it is a sandwich.

Now we just have to worry about the pandemic that is raging out of control. More deaths per capita than the USA, 50,000+ infections per day, schools still due to open in January...it's going to be a fucking mess.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 01, 2021, 04:13:30 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 31, 2020, 10:01:01 PM
Yeah, the deal's a shit sandwich, but at least it is a sandwich.

Now we just have to worry about the pandemic that is raging out of control. More deaths per capita than the USA, 50,000+ infections per day, schools still due to open in January...it's going to be a fucking mess.

Isn't there a gap between Brexit finalizing and the deal starting?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 01, 2021, 09:35:31 AM
There's definitely going to be a logistical and administrative drag. Legally, as far as I understand, the deal came into effect from last night but I suspect that the UK Customs and Borders control are woefully underprepared for the task ahead of them.

I also expect the UK to try and violate the terms of the deal within the next 3 months as some kind of "shit test" on the EU, because our leaders are that stupid and their voting base needs the red meat of an EU enemy, even though we've now left.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on January 01, 2021, 09:38:09 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 01, 2021, 04:13:30 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 31, 2020, 10:01:01 PM
Yeah, the deal's a shit sandwich, but at least it is a sandwich.

Now we just have to worry about the pandemic that is raging out of control. More deaths per capita than the USA, 50,000+ infections per day, schools still due to open in January...it's going to be a fucking mess.

Isn't there a gap between Brexit finalizing and the deal starting?
Sadly no, we've already had it. We actually left the EU last Jan 31 but nothing changed during the "transition period" so that businesses and real people could get ready for the new rules we agreed with the EU. So basically we've been a dead man walking for the last 11 months. Today we enter the brave new world where they finally pull the carpet out from under our feet and the shit hits the proverbial since nobody could reorganise themselves for the final wrench since the details were only actually agreed on Xmas eve and rubber stamped by elizabeth battenburg on New Years eve.
So now we have both run out of time and fallen into a timeslip of incompetence.

As witness:-
QuoteThe text of Boris Johnson's Brexit deal refers to 23-year-old web and email software and cyber-security methods which are decades out of date.

Netscape Communicator, last updated in 1997, and Mozilla Mail which was superceded in 1998 and ceased development in 2006, are referred to as "modern" internet software.

And the document recommends using outdated methods of encryption - 1024-bit RSA encryption and the SHA-1 hashing algorithm - which are vulnerable to cyber attacks.

It's thought the passages were copied and pasted from previous EU treaties or laws - possibly a 2008 Council decision which uses the same text.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: The Johnny on January 01, 2021, 10:30:12 AM
 
Even the thing of 2008 that they copy pasted from was already outdated... which means they themselves had copy pasted from outdated papers as well.  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on January 01, 2021, 10:45:07 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on January 01, 2021, 10:30:12 AM

Even the thing of 2008 that they copy pasted from was already outdated... which means they themselves had copy pasted from outdated papers as well.  :lulz:

Yes indeed. We truly are World Beating / in a very old fashioned way! As is only appropriate for a deluded nation of jingoistic numpties who are rocking off to dreams of a glorious Imperial past. I wonder if it was this embarassing to be a Roman watching their empire crumble . . . ?
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on January 04, 2021, 10:19:28 PM
Back in lockdown, I see.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on January 05, 2021, 12:30:01 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 04, 2021, 10:19:28 PM
Back in lockdown, I see.

I suppose it is what we deserve . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on January 05, 2021, 08:19:23 AM
If it manages to get the numbers down it will be worth it. Might need two or three more before theres enough vaccinated to not need it any more.

Ireland passed 6000 cases a day yesterday, which is a disaster, I knew Christmas would push it up, but it went higher faster than anyone was expecting and now well be stuck in maximim lockdown until about march
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2021, 11:33:16 AM
Of course, it should have been done in October when cases started rising again, and they should have closed the schools as well.

I'd blame the government, but at this point it's like blaming a dog for barking - we knew they were going to fuck it up. Instead, I'm incredibly disappointed in Keir Starmer and the Labour front bench, who are completing ignoring the teacher's union on the risk they are facing by keeping the schools open - the threat to the health of the teaching staff, the students and all of their collective families is being put at risk by insisting on keeping the schools open, and all Labour can fucking come up with is "uh, maybe we should close the zoos, but schools definitely need to stay open".

Gotta say it, but if this was a zombie movie, I'd kill Starmer first, because he's the kind of guy who won't have your back when shit gets real. If you're trans, a teacher, part of an ethnic minority or just not rich you can apparently fuck right off in Labour's esteemed judgement.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on January 05, 2021, 12:39:43 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 05, 2021, 11:33:16 AM
Of course, it should have been done in October when cases started rising again, and they should have closed the schools as well.

I'd blame the government, but at this point it's like blaming a dog for barking - we knew they were going to fuck it up. Instead, I'm incredibly disappointed in Keir Starmer and the Labour front bench, who are completing ignoring the teacher's union on the risk they are facing by keeping the schools open - the threat to the health of the teaching staff, the students and all of their collective families is being put at risk by insisting on keeping the schools open, and all Labour can fucking come up with is "uh, maybe we should close the zoos, but schools definitely need to stay open".

Gotta say it, but if this was a zombie movie, I'd kill Starmer first, because he's the kind of guy who won't have your back when shit gets real. If you're trans, a teacher, part of an ethnic minority or just not rich you can apparently fuck right off in Labour's esteemed judgement.

and don't forget the socialists . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 01, 2021, 06:33:30 PM
https://apnews.com/article/race-and-ethnicity-london-coronavirus-pandemic-boris-johnson-5be74eb83e1c22f27efa13265c3a6681

Well, the good news is that the UK isn't racist.   :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on April 01, 2021, 06:40:34 PM
Meanwhile 500 illegal immigrants from the UK in Spain were deported today, but because they are from the UK all the news titles read "ex-pats"
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on April 03, 2021, 07:05:32 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 01, 2021, 06:33:30 PM
https://apnews.com/article/race-and-ethnicity-london-coronavirus-pandemic-boris-johnson-5be74eb83e1c22f27efa13265c3a6681

Well, the good news is that the UK isn't racist.   :lulz:

phew, we really dodged a bullet there . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on April 03, 2021, 07:06:31 PM
Quote from: Faust on April 01, 2021, 06:40:34 PM
Meanwhile 500 illegal immigrants from the UK in Spain were deported today, but because they are from the UK all the news titles read "ex-pats"

well that's a whole wadge of "April Fools" . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 04, 2021, 12:24:54 AM
Quote from: MMIX on April 03, 2021, 07:05:32 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 01, 2021, 06:33:30 PM
https://apnews.com/article/race-and-ethnicity-london-coronavirus-pandemic-boris-johnson-5be74eb83e1c22f27efa13265c3a6681

Well, the good news is that the UK isn't racist.   :lulz:

phew, we really dodged a bullet there . . .

There was also the traditional resignation of a race relations minister dealy that you've never heard of for the full ho ho.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 04, 2021, 12:30:32 AM
The PM now dsistancing himself from the report tells you everything you need to know about how well that has gone.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: MMIX on April 04, 2021, 10:12:36 AM
Quote from: Cain on April 04, 2021, 12:30:32 AM
The PM now dsistancing himself from the report tells you everything you need to know about how well that has gone.

but he's still the 'teflon toff', though - gods but its embarrasing to be a brit
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 04, 2021, 02:24:18 PM
Incredibly embarassing.

Especially considering this report basically says all the same stuff that the press has been for the past decade at least, you know, racism doesn't real (except against white people), ethnic minorities are "race hustlers" who don't think so good etc, but it's done in such an atrociously bald-faced way, with such a flagrant "fuck you" that even the Tory press have disowned it.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Rev. St. Syn, KSC (Ret.) on April 06, 2021, 10:36:58 AM
Brexit is fucking with my hobbies, which involve buying shit from Europe. At least half of my suppliers won't ship to Brexit Britain and by extension, Drag-out-Scotland. I'd say 'Fuck the UK,' but it's doing a great job of fucking itself... With a hammer... In the face.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 06, 2021, 10:55:37 AM
Scotland will do what they did the last time and shite out of any semblence of a future they might have had a crack at. Pretty sure Salmond has been got to. Hence the Sturgeon smear and subsequent SNP divide and conquer play. Scottish nationalists will feel the Bern and the English nationalists will clean up and sing about the 90's and red hands and white horses and whatever the fuck else it is they think their ideology means. Subjugation and stockholm syndrome need not apply.  :lulz:
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 06, 2021, 02:56:51 PM
It also doesn't matter because Boris Johnson is just going to say "no" regardless and the press will back him to the hilt. 130,000 unnecessary deaths and a Brexit clusterfuck that is gutting our international trade haven't caused him to change his mind, pissing off literally all of Scotland isn't going to either.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 22, 2021, 10:00:44 PM
So at the last count, 6 sleaze enquiries, more overt corruption than can be easily summarised and the total resignations stands at, er, 1. Over none of the above.

"the last 36 hours has been eye opening". Silly bastard. You could have worked this out at any time over the last 36 YEARS
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Cain on April 23, 2021, 12:40:27 PM
I think the best part was when Labour decided they wanted to have Peter Mandelson and Tony Blair speak up on how lobbying is a noble art.

I know Starmer is fucking useless, but you'd think he'd get those two idiots to shut up for at least a day when it looked like there was a chance to hammer the Tories on something.
Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Junkenstein on April 24, 2021, 10:06:32 PM
Fucking useless is about right. How every pmqs is not a public flogging is just bewildering.

I'm honestly considering an open letter to the chap. The lawyer shtick isn't working, you need someone willing to throw pig Latin in his face and mock the fucker until he does the decent thing and hangs himself. Possibly harsh, but I can tell you of around 130,000 others that would probably agree.

Title: Re: UK General Election 8th June: Shake it all about?
Post by: Faust on August 19, 2021, 12:09:08 PM
(https://i.redd.it/13gol97k44i71.jpg)

I try not to revel but she really got my goat with that comment a couple of years back and seeing a little bit of food shortages inspires a bit of schadenfreude in the worst part of me.

The famine In Ireland was directly caused by the UK exporting good crops and leaving nothing for the people here, three million people died, perhaps it is ignorance on her part, or a malicious little suggestion harking back to the days of genocide.

The reason I post this is the it seems the UK media are blaming pandemic for the food shortages and the media is going out of its way to not use brexit within 500 meters of any news article about food shortages.
Online I see people saying that if brexit is having an effect its only part of it and the majority of the reason is the pandemic:

Ireland, which is further from continental Europe and does not have a direct tunnel, is not experiencing any shortages, Covid is not a factor. Like at ALL. The supply chain issues the UK is currently experiencing are directly due to brexit and nothing else, but understanding why is the hard part.

Suppliers used to deliver to the UK and load up fully before returning continental Europe, now they are returning with half loads or worse, empty trucks, to avoid having to sit in customs for hours.
That is the first source of reduced shipping to the UK, its no longer as profitable for companies to do so.
The second is the driver shortage.

Again the online argument is that if drivers were paid more the issue would resolve and that businesses need to adapt and pay more. Unfortunately, while this would reduce the effect a little, the core issue is that a Driver who leaves home for delivery in France or Germany can deliver to most of the EU and be home before bed. This is incredibly difficult now with the UK, the adapting of increasing the pay for inconvenience is being forgone for personal quality of life. IE these lads dont want to shit on the side of the road in a six - eight hour wait at customs before having to resume to their destination, and then have to go home.
So the option is not just to pay for those extra hours of wait, but the inconvenience will need to be factored into the pay, you could be looking at double or triple pay to even attract the drivers back to the UK, and that is if there are no further delays added to the journey
This current problem cannot be resolved without: full autonomous truck delivery or rejoining the customs union. Or of course, get used to rickets from the lack of sale of citrus fruits.

The UK hasn't even implemented its side of the controls (which just adds to the endless catchphrase hypocrisy of "Taking back control of our borders").
This is due to happen October 1st, which it wont, because that wont just slow the supply chain further, it will grind to a standstill.