Just how much is enough?
On one end there are people who feed their egos all day, every day, people who can't set themselves aside for even one second to consider the fact that other people might, perhaps, exist and have needs, emotions, or physical space.
On the other end there are people who, through social conditioning or religious justification, suppress their egos to the point of near nothingness. I don't think you can wholly void personality, but you can get awfully close. No opinions, no voice, just breathing meat capable of doing what you need how you need it, but with no desire for much of anything outside of pleasing others. This is just as undesireable, IMO and personal experience.
How does one find the middle? What's the means of balancing the ego?
I'm starting to think it has something to do with social interaction, that maybe the mirror of other egos is the only way to see it.
The pragmatic answer: Aim for a middle ground. If your ego is acceptable to others, great.
The Complicated answer: 'Ego' in this sense is not a valued thing. It is neither bad nor good, but certain characteristics it may take on are undesirable, and some aren't. The tendency to self-focus? Not so good. Lacking a set of preferences and tastes that make up the "individual"? Best avoided. Basically, you have to evaluate an ego based on it's functionality as a whole.
Why are you concerned about what others think?
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 12:51:47 AM
Why are you concerned about what others think?
Because I happen to be a species with prosocial tendencies, and I depend on a network of my kind for survival.
Quote from: Sigmatic on May 13, 2010, 12:56:08 AM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 12:51:47 AM
Why are you concerned about what others think?
Because I happen to be a species with prosocial tendencies, and I depend on a network of my kind for survival.
That is your weak point then.
Yeah.
Honestly though? The whole rugged individualism thing about Americans never really did it for me. EDIT: normal people can't survive alone without extensive technological capabilities. To say nothing of psychological health.
Face facts. Humans need each other.
Quote from: Sigmatic on May 13, 2010, 01:03:30 AM
Yeah.
Honestly though? The whole rugged individualism thing about Americans never really did it for me. EDIT: normal people can't survive alone without extensive technological capabilities. To say nothing of psychological health.
Face facts. Humans need each other.
Only if you allow yourself to believe that. Study early American history, especially the mountain men. Technological capabilities are mere crutches for making life easy. A person can survive with a sharp stick if they had to.
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 01:06:00 AM
Quote from: Sigmatic on May 13, 2010, 01:03:30 AM
Yeah.
Honestly though? The whole rugged individualism thing about Americans never really did it for me. EDIT: normal people can't survive alone without extensive technological capabilities. To say nothing of psychological health.
Face facts. Humans need each other.
Only if you allow yourself to believe that. Study early American history, especially the mountain men. Technological capabilities are mere crutches for making life easy. A person can survive with a sharp stick if they had to.
After a fashion. But what kind of life is that?
I was thinking about these things, and what Cramulus said concerning Nafs, after the etiquette thread.
I used to obsess over what other people thought. Anxiety attacks, massive paranoia, reclusive and evasive lifestyle. I'm still no good with people day to day, but don't dwell on those interactions anymore. Much better these days. TBH, I could keep on avoiding people and be comfortable doing so. But I don't think that's right. Or healthy.
Often I sit slack-jawed trying to come up with the "appropriate" response to social interactions, and am still trying to figure this shit out in general.
Like dignity. I wonder where our sense of dignity comes from, what's so important about it. If it comes from the ego then :? I probably just internalize my thoughts too much. That's why I ask, to get them out into the light of day.
Also, we all care about what people think about us to some extent. Otherwise we wouldn't brush our hair or avoid clothes that make us look rediculous or apologize for anything.
Quote from: Sigmatic on May 13, 2010, 01:06:52 AM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 01:06:00 AM
Quote from: Sigmatic on May 13, 2010, 01:03:30 AM
Yeah.
Honestly though? The whole rugged individualism thing about Americans never really did it for me. EDIT: normal people can't survive alone without extensive technological capabilities. To say nothing of psychological health.
Face facts. Humans need each other.
Only if you allow yourself to believe that. Study early American history, especially the mountain men. Technological capabilities are mere crutches for making life easy. A person can survive with a sharp stick if they had to.
After a fashion. But what kind of life is that?
That question would take a great deal of time to answer honestly. Try this, strap on a backpack and go on a trek for 30 days. I
think your feeling about being alone might just alter.
Quote from: Alty on May 13, 2010, 01:08:52 AM
I was thinking about these things, and what Cramulus said concerning Nafs, after the etiquette thread.
I used to obsess over what other people thought. Anxiety attacks, massive paranoia, reclusive and evasive lifestyle. I'm still no good with people day to day, but don't dwell on those interactions anymore. Much better these days. TBH, I could keep on avoiding people and be comfortable doing so. But I don't think that's right. Or healthy.
Often I sit slack-jawed trying to come up with the "appropriate" response to social interactions, and am still trying to figure this shit out in general.
Like dignity. I wonder where our sense of dignity comes from, what's so important about it. If it comes from the ego then :? I probably just internalize my thoughts too much. That's why I ask, to get them out into the light of day.
Also, we all care about what people think about us to some extent. Otherwise we wouldn't brush our hair or avoid clothes that make us look rediculous or apologize for anything.
We build our cells bar by bar in our black iron prisons.
Pragmatic answer: if your behavior is causing other people enough discomfort to make things difficult for you, you are doing something wrong, otherwise it's probably ok. This can happen on either side of the ego spectrum, and sometimes has nothing to do with ego, but when it does, if phrasing the problem in terms of ego helps you solve it then do so.
To some of the people in this thread: mountain men still have to come down out of the mountains to trade, find mates, and develop kinship. There's a reason why our populations aren't composed of hermits: because hermits don't reproduce.
We're social, tool using primates. Humans very rarely will survive in isolation.
By setting up the OP as a choice between two extremes - the ego-indulgent and the faceless-vegetable - you've insured that everybody is going to say "somewhere in between!"
That's not to say I disagree with the answer - 'somewhere in between' is a good, pragmatic way to approach most stuff.
Speaking for myself, I am a recovering ego addict. When I was a kid, a lot of my sense of humor was about being superior, expressing shock at how idiotically I perceived the world around me, general disdain for the Other. I got really into stuff which I thought would make me distinct, individual, & unique. And fast forward 10 or 15 or 20 years (depending on how you slice it) and yeah, I am a pretty unique individual.
I was talking to a friend of mine recently, who is turning 50, and just sold the LARP company she used to own.
She had a word of warning to me. It started as a question:
She had asked me, "Aside from gaming, and writing stuff for this Discordia thing, what other stuff are you into?"
I listed off a few things, but noted that RPGs and Chaos are my two primary interests. Zany adventures of all types.
And she said, "When I was your age, I wanted to run a LARP company more than anything in the world. And I did. I spent a lot of my youth doing it. And it was fun. But now I'm ready to leave it and I wish I had spent my time developing myself in other ways."
"My warning," she went on to say, "is not to use up your youth focusing exclusively on the things which bring you pleasure."
It's true, LARPing brings me a lot of pleasure. There's a community of 200 or 300 LARPers in my region, and I'm pretty well connected to that social network. I've got a reputation which makes people want to meet me and talk to me. I'm one of the top three people in NERO (a large larp company), and I'm one of the writers who is actually shaping the future of the game. I'm basically sending out all these signals which say "I'm awesome," and every time a system replies with, "you're right", I give that system a little more of my attention/energy.
and then last week I found myself at a party, and somebody asked me what I'd been up to,
and the truth is that I'd spent 10 out of the last 21 days in a fantasy world (or traveling to a fantasy world), and I didn't want to talk about that, so I sort of blanked.
I've been feeding my ego systems so diligently, it felt like I'd excluded other parts of myself. I felt a little too two dimensional. What is the utility of all this stuff? Is it any different than the cat that wants to be stroked? am I caught in this inescapable dance of operant conditioning? Personally, I'm beginning to see the sense of self as a limiting factor. A black iron prison to escape.
Popular misconception - You are dealt an ego and that's all she wrote.
Modify, grow, prune, destroy, rebuild. If you don't take control of it, it will control you. Doesn't matter if it's one extreme or the other, chances are you'll be miserable.
While centrism is a good rule of thumb, you have to be careful about shifting extremes (the midpoint of x and -x may be zero, but the midpoint of 3x and -x is x).
IMO as long as you live life by your own aesthetic and still respect others, you're golden.
I love the OP.
On the topic of being alone and self-sustaining; it's a good skill to have if you need it. I love being alone, and I love being self-sustaining, but the thing that gives my life meaning and, honestly, probably where most of my ego lies is a sense of being useful to other people. I don't usually talk about it because it sounds fucking gay, but the main thing I think my life is for is to somehow help other people's lives be better. It might just be in a tiny, tiny way, but if I can't do that, what is the point of my existence at all?
So basically, I need other people in order to feed my ego by feeling helpful to them. I could survive, and probably even find a type of contentment up on a mountain alone, but I wouldn't feel really happy or really fulfilled, and eventually I would probably go mad and start letterbombing professors.
If it's weakness to want/need other people, I'd rather be weak than strong.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on May 13, 2010, 05:11:18 PM
I love the OP.
On the topic of being alone and self-sustaining; it's a good skill to have if you need it. I love being alone, and I love being self-sustaining, but the thing that gives my life meaning and, honestly, probably where most of my ego lies is a sense of being useful to other people. I don't usually talk about it because it sounds fucking gay, but the main thing I think my life is for is to somehow help other people's lives be better. It might just be in a tiny, tiny way, but if I can't do that, what is the point of my existence at all?
So basically, I need other people in order to feed my ego by feeling helpful to them. I could survive, and probably even find a type of contentment up on a mountain alone, but I wouldn't feel really happy or really fulfilled, and eventually I would probably go mad and start letterbombing professors.
If it's weakness to want/need other people, I'd rather be weak than strong.
Well said.
I unintentionally destroyed mine about 25 years ago, by feeding it a bucketful of LSD. It got The Fear, and spent a couple of hours, screaming inside my head. I was at a festival, andI found myself in a Marquee, full of Hare Krisna devotees.I think IO was drawn there because the chanting soothed the fear. It got smaller, and farther away, until it was just a tiny dot of white light. And it was gone. And my ego, gone with it. My head exploded with white light, and I was everywhere, and everything at once. I no longer had any ego to tag the thing that I was, so I was not. There was no identity, no separateness. Just one big one. No time, became all time, became the same instant. Tiny enough to disappear, large enough to contain every event that had happened or ever would happen. I became pure experience, with no sense of anything that was outside, or inside. My ego returned, softly, instantly, with no fear, only a sense of awe. And I was aware of Lord Krisna, and he bathed my raw spirit with love, and put me gently back down in my body, and smiled at me.
After that, my ego, was aware, for the first time, probably, of it's proportion, and learned to know it's function, it's limits, and it's uses. It still gets a little tender at times, but nothing like as butthurt as it used to before. And now I know why Hare Krisnas are always smiling, and chanting. And whenever I see them, they know that even though I am not one of them, he has touched me too. And that's good.
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 12:51:47 AM
Why are you concerned about what others think?
because the alternative is boring.
People are interesting, and if I didn't have them to pass the time and find out what they think there wouldn't be much more to do in life then sit around making sandcastles all day.
Quote from: Faust on May 13, 2010, 11:52:59 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 12:51:47 AM
Why are you concerned about what others think?
because the alternative is boring.
People are interesting, and if I didn't have them to pass the time and find out what they think there wouldn't be much more to do in life then sit around making sandcastles all day.
I play wiff toofpicks.
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 11:53:40 PM
Quote from: Faust on May 13, 2010, 11:52:59 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 12:51:47 AM
Why are you concerned about what others think?
because the alternative is boring.
People are interesting, and if I didn't have them to pass the time and find out what they think there wouldn't be much more to do in life then sit around making sandcastles all day.
I play wiff toofpicks.
I get bored after isolating myself for a few months, people are fun. The difference between caring about what people think and allowing other peoples opinion of you to control you is a very different thing.
Quote from: BadBeast on May 13, 2010, 11:39:29 PM
I unintentionally destroyed mine about 25 years ago, by feeding it a bucketful of LSD. It got The Fear, and spent a couple of hours, screaming inside my head. I was at a festival, andI found myself in a Marquee, full of Hare Krisna devotees.I think IO was drawn there because the chanting soothed the fear. It got smaller, and farther away, until it was just a tiny dot of white light. And it was gone. And my ego, gone with it. My head exploded with white light, and I was everywhere, and everything at once. I no longer had any ego to tag the thing that I was, so I was not. There was no identity, no separateness. Just one big one. No time, became all time, became the same instant. Tiny enough to disappear, large enough to contain every event that had happened or ever would happen. I became pure experience, with no sense of anything that was outside, or inside. My ego returned, softly, instantly, with no fear, only a sense of awe. And I was aware of Lord Krisna, and he bathed my raw spirit with love, and put me gently back down in my body, and smiled at me.
After that, my ego, was aware, for the first time, probably, of it's proportion, and learned to know it's function, it's limits, and it's uses. It still gets a little tender at times, but nothing like as butthurt as it used to before. And now I know why Hare Krisnas are always smiling, and chanting. And whenever I see them, they know that even though I am not one of them, he has touched me too. And that's good.
No offense but this sounds like the Hippie shit I heard all through the '60's and '70's. I saw god once while on a trip courtesy of Orange Sunshine and I pissed in his face.
Quote from: Faust on May 13, 2010, 11:57:20 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 11:53:40 PM
Quote from: Faust on May 13, 2010, 11:52:59 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 12:51:47 AM
Why are you concerned about what others think?
because the alternative is boring.
People are interesting, and if I didn't have them to pass the time and find out what they think there wouldn't be much more to do in life then sit around making sandcastles all day.
I play wiff toofpicks.
I get bored after isolating myself for a few months, people are fun. The difference between caring about what people think and allowing other peoples opinion of you to control you is a very different thing.
I enjoy being around people sometimes. I just have to have an escape route planned in advance.
Quote from: Hawk on May 13, 2010, 11:57:37 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on May 13, 2010, 11:39:29 PM
I unintentionally destroyed mine about 25 years ago, by feeding it a bucketful of LSD. It got The Fear, and spent a couple of hours, screaming inside my head. I was at a festival, andI found myself in a Marquee, full of Hare Krisna devotees.I think IO was drawn there because the chanting soothed the fear. It got smaller, and farther away, until it was just a tiny dot of white light. And it was gone. And my ego, gone with it. My head exploded with white light, and I was everywhere, and everything at once. I no longer had any ego to tag the thing that I was, so I was not. There was no identity, no separateness. Just one big one. No time, became all time, became the same instant. Tiny enough to disappear, large enough to contain every event that had happened or ever would happen. I became pure experience, with no sense of anything that was outside, or inside. My ego returned, softly, instantly, with no fear, only a sense of awe. And I was aware of Lord Krisna, and he bathed my raw spirit with love, and put me gently back down in my body, and smiled at me.
After that, my ego, was aware, for the first time, probably, of it's proportion, and learned to know it's function, it's limits, and it's uses. It still gets a little tender at times, but nothing like as butthurt as it used to before. And now I know why Hare Krisnas are always smiling, and chanting. And whenever I see them, they know that even though I am not one of them, he has touched me too. And that's good.
No offense but this sounds like the Hippie shit I heard all through the '60's and '70's. I saw god once while on a trip courtesy of Orange Sunshine and I pissed in his face.
None taken, (It was the 80's, after all) If I did the same thing again, I would no doubt dress the experience up in a totally different frame of reference. (Hopefully one that didn't sound so much like hippy shit.) The experience was a valid one though, so I told it like I remembered it.
Since then, I've learned a little bit of psychology, and how the ego tagging thing works, giving us an anchor point from which to view the world. And I can see that from a clinical point of view, all I did was to temporarily cut my anchor rope. The whole thing was very therapeutic, and I really haven't been the same since. A lot less, erm, . . egotistical in fact.
(edit: In defence of Hippy shit, I doubt if I am the only one whose original introduction to Lady Eris, and Discordia generally, was from reading "Illuminatus", probably the most blatantly obvious pile of hippy shit, it's ever been my pleasure to re-read over and over again.)