Messages

People do not adhere to their assumptive labels.

Your move.

Therefore "left" and "right" as good-bad absolutes are false assumptions.

Ah.  It sounds like you have a problem with people rather than ideas.

Humans are not concepts.

Concepts are just tools, double edged swords.

I like how "the extreme leftists are taking control" is a statement that's taken seriously despite the fact that the UK just voted itself out of the EU in a fit of xenophobic ignorance, their prime minister just made a governing deal with a party that would make the KKK blush, and race- and religion-based violence in Britain has spiked 1000% in the last year. Where is all this "extreme left in control" stuff? And that's just the UK. We hear the same shit in America despite the fact that we just elected an autocratic blowhard who surrounds himself with Nazi wankers, Congress is currently debating whether it should fuck all Americans out of safety nets or just most of us, states all over the place are passing laws encouraging discrimination against LGBTQ+ people, and the police have more or less free reign to murder anyone who is sufficiently black with or without cause. And yet, somehow, "the extreme left" is in control.

You make the assumption that brexit is based on xenophobia. While I voted remain I looked at all the arguments and there where many compelling economic and political reasons for both sides.

The remain campaign of labeling all "leavers" as closet racists also backfired as many in this country resented being accused of racism just for supporting brexit.

Brexit was NOT a left-right issue. Jeremy Corbyn, you may know him as the guy in charge of the LEFT wing labour party, was a supporter of LEAVING the EU.

This is the problem with polarisation, you just make the perfect example. You just assume it's left-right and therefore Brexit is a racist, right wing decision.

The country was split evenly, 48% to 52% with leavers and remainers in BOTH political parties and a public who voted NOT on traditional political lines. Many labour strongholds voted for leave while still voting labour.

In my estimation, the core principle of conservatives is to maintain status quo.

Also in my estimation, the status quo consists of rigid hierarchical power structures, economic inequality, systemic racism, and class inequity.

Therefore, I believe much of conservative thought is designed for the ruling class (the Haves) to hold on to their power over the rest of society (the Have Nots).

A "balance of left and right" (i.e. a balance of conservative and liberal thought) is to agree that the (ine)qualities of the status quo should be at least partially maintained.

At least, that's what my radical progressive mind daydreams about.

I can understand your pespective.

The problem is the assumption that the victory of the left is the victory of the "have nots" over the "haves."

In fact, in the political sense, the left and right are simply two groups of "haves" fighting over who gets to control the "have nots". When you look at political history, at least from the British perspective, it doesn't really matter who is in power. Either way you have an elite who abuse the position of power to control the rest of society.

When you get an equal balance of power, such as when you have a hung parliment, THAT is when social change can occur, THAT is when the "haves" are too weak to maintain full control and fulfill their agenda.

An example is the recent Tory/Lib Dem coalition that resulted in the legalisation of gay marriage. A Tory or Labour majority would never pass such a law. The weakness of the coalition government allowed an act of real social change to occur.

The threat of a strong Labour government, controlled by the extreme left is just another set of chains upon the British people as one elite replaces the other.

I must reject the concept that any one political ideaology is superior to the other. Yes I support a more right wing viewpoint but I am not foolish enough to want it to be dominant.

I see the current situation of a weak government holding onto a majority by a thread as a welcome opportunity for the REAL changes to be made as the government becomes so desperate to maintain control that they will allow social changes to happen to keep back bench rebels happy.

I'm less against liberalism than I am against British socialism and the rise of the extreme left. A few years ago I'd be considered centrist, these days if you are not a Corbynite you are considered right of Hitler.

In failing to recognise this was a mostly American forum and the different political situation it appears I have rather fucked up and my point has been lost. Live and learn I guess

Judging any group by its extremists is sort of a losing game.

It's not about judging by the extremists, it's the bloody extremists taking control. Labour swung from left wing-lite under Blair to extremists holding the reigns. Corbyn doesn't control the unions and far left, they control him.

Any political system requires a balance of left and right, our system is supposed to work along that frame work. Within the parties themselves you have checks and balances. Corbyn was an example of this, a well known rebel within his party as a balance to the centrists.

The balance is out of whack. The tories are at war with each other and the Labour party list any chance of reigning in Corbyn.

I'm not against the left, just because my political spectrum is right doesnt mean I can't respect and understand the importance of the other side of the political spectrum. However the far left is as dangerous as the far right and many are blindly walking into that on little better ideaology than "right bad, left good"

Yay - our new national anthem is The Sash! 

Off to google...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmi2xJn76NE

On the surface it seems innocuous enough but it's when yelled at catholics while you're stomping their face to keep time that it really comes into it's own. I'd advise any tourist visiting our fine nation to whistle this upon entering any pub. You'll either be bought a free drink or killed to death depending on the pub 

I work with an old-school Ulster lass. They are interesting, tough folk. I'm only scared of two people, the missus and the Ulster girl.

I'm less against liberalism than I am against British socialism and the rise of the extreme left. A few years ago I'd be considered centrist, these days if you are not a Corbynite you are considered right of Hitler.

In failing to recognise this was a mostly American forum and the different political situation it appears I have rather fucked up and my point has been lost. Live and learn I guess

And for the record, I'm in the UK and have travelled a fair bit through Europe. I've never met anyone who has an "interest in nordic paganism" who hasn't turned out to be an utter cretin.


Also for the record, I am in no way responsible for this one and I resent any insinuations to the contrary.

Sadly, that is too often the case. Tend to stay away from the "Asatru" types due to this. Either they end up as fluffy bunny wiccans or heavy metal fucktards.

I'm not Anerican

Oh.  Never mind.

What is going on over there that following a nordic tradition evokes such a reaction? I'm genuinely confused here.

Got off on the wrong foot here, I've been interested in politics and Discordianism for 20 years, since I was 17. Started out as a lefty, a firebrand idealist. Used to post on a similar forum back before iron prison was put published. Got shot down allot and learned a few things.

Over the years I've grown, my views have changed and evolved. Raising a daughter and scared shitless about the future she'll inherit. Maybe my point was lost, maybe I've misunderstood some American cultural/political issues.

Main point is that some of us on the right side of this airplane care as much about free thinking and opening people's minds as those on the left and both sides have closed minded extremists to be wary of

So, you lost your nerve and went potato?  Okay.

Anyway, the right over here has no fucking interest in free thinking or any of that shit.

Theresa May isn't looking good, either.  Enjoy your Brexit, I am sure it will make everything just GREAT for your kid's future.

I was one of the 48%. Still enough remainers in the back bench to hopefully cause enough trouble. May is an idiot but Corbyn is little better. I actualy liked him till he threw away his principles to create a manifesto to please everyone.

British politics is polarising, Labour is being taken over by the extreme left who have as little interest in free thinking as the far right and the tories dont know what the bloody hell they represent anymore.

One of the reasons I became more interested in discordianism. Everyone is nailing colours to masts, blindly following ideaologies without really knowing or questioning what they represent. Got me thinking, got me wondering if folk still give a damn. Been lurking for a while, honestly not sure if there are still folk trying to make changes or just building ivory towers of bitter salt.

I'm not Anerican

Oh.  Never mind.

What is going on over there that following a nordic tradition evokes such a reaction? I'm genuinely confused here.

Got off on the wrong foot here, I've been interested in politics and Discordianism for 20 years, since I was 17. Started out as a lefty, a firebrand idealist. Used to post on a similar forum back before iron prison was put published. Got shot down allot and learned a few things.

Over the years I've grown, my views have changed and evolved. Raising a daughter and scared shitless about the future she'll inherit. Maybe my point was lost, maybe I've misunderstood some American cultural/political issues.

Main point is that some of us on the right side of this airplane care as much about free thinking and opening people's minds as those on the left and both sides have closed minded extremists to be wary of

Ok, right wing. I am firmly against the "welfare state" concept taken to the extreme of the British labour party. I do believe the state has an obligation to the people but it works both ways.
A system in which the able bodied are fit to work but supported by the state is abhorrent to me. I believe in national service, note I do not mean military, the able bodied should serve the state in return for support from the state.

Of course the elderly and the disabled should be supported.

I belueve in more right wing, militant geo-politics but not the reckless "democracy or bust" crap that caused all this mess in the middle east.

Kinda hard to just list right wing beliefs to be honest, could be here all day making a list without context to said belief.

That kind of "national service" is ridiculous. It amounts to useless busywork meted out to the unfortunate just because productivity is somehow morally equated with the right to survive. The reason I say this isn't because we should "reward" laziness but because at our current level of technological achievement, increasing automation has caused general productivity to skyrocket while causing the ability of the average worker to contribute to it to plummet. The result is that we have masses of people who cannot really do anything of economic value because we have automated systems and machines doing a lot of the work. Requiring them to basically dig holes and fill them back up again just to prove they deserve a loaf of bread and a shitty apartment is a waste of resources.

Capitalist economies require growth in order to survive. Traditionally that growth has come from opening new markets, but soon there will be few "new" markets to open. If capitalism expects to survive, it will have to expand existing markets which means increasing the purchasing power of people inside already-capitalist zones even if those people cannot be productive enough to "warrant" that increased purchasing power. Otherwise, what we'll have is a ton of resources being created by increasingly automated systems, but no one who can afford to buy them, causing demand for everything from bread to yachts to first spike uncontrollably and then crash irretrievably.

The answer is obvious, but is anathema to traditionalists who have always (nominally) equated purchasing power with productivity somehow, despite the fact that that has never been the case (the most wealthy people have always been the least productive). Universal basic income which meets the fundamental survival needs of everyone without requiring anything "in return" leads to a workforce that is more healthy, more productive thanks to the availability of ongoing education, and able to purchase goods and services which would otherwise be out of their reach. Additionally, in the near future, failure to provide this baseline standard of living will put a society at a serious disadvantage in a global economy where other nations are doing it. Their people will not have the tools they need to compete with others, and the society will fail.

It's also worth noting that your "right wing" position would put you substantially to the left of just about every single Republican in America. Which is sort of off-putting for me.

In terms of your geopolitical stance, I actually agree that our nationbuilding in the Middle East has been a horrific disaster, but mostly that's because that region was designed intentionally to be unstable except under totalitarian rule by the British Empire a century ago, and it has been exploited, attacked, defamed, and insulted non-stop for that entire period. Ethnic and religious groups have been intentionally divided and provoked to violence specifically in order to prevent them from coalescing into a coherent empire (which they have been very good at for thousands of years). Democracy aside, it was the West that created the mess we have in the Middle East and it didn't start in 2001.

I'm not Anerican so honestly do not know much about Republicans or Democrats.

I agree with the comments on the middle east. It goes back centuries and British Imperialism created the foundation of the current issues. The communist-western proxy wars also turned the whole damn region into a military playground.

This is one of the problems, we ignore situations that justify the use of force and aggression. A perfect example is Kosovo. Yet use force for foolish adventurism and "regime" change

This is summat that REALLY fucking annoys me. Racists, neo nazis and an assorted collection of extreme scum hijacked norse stmboligy and turned it into something it's not.

There is nothing about racial "purity" in either edda. All that aryan bullshit is the product of 30's pseudo-science to justify a political ideaology.

Norse paganism is about many different ideas, it's a poly-theistic faith that is no better or worse than any other religion. I follow it because thd old sagas and tales resonate for me. It is so tiresome to bd judged because of some skinhead fuckers who wouldn't know what Gungnir was if you bloody hit them with it.

Hey Fallenkezef - I applaud your post for its bravery


For me, leaning towards the "left wing" doesn't have to do with the high level philosophical debate of Justice vs Equality, or Big State vs Small State... it's more about who do I want to defend?

-I've got gay friends who couldn't get married until a few years ago
-I've got trans friends in Texas who are literally afraid to go to the bathroom in public
-Right after the election, there was a huge uptick in public racism and violence
-Education's getting more expensive and privatized
-Health care is getting more expensive and privatized
-The KKK is recruiting and expanding
-Wealth is more concentrated than ever
-The environment is falling apart


I don't see the "right wing" offering any decent response to any of the above. If they could present a better case, I'd listen. A good answer can potentially come from any group of people.

But in the US, half of the right wing seems like it's working on dismantling the government entirely, and the other half is just itchy to stick it to liberals, even if it means drilling holes in the boat we share.

British politics seems very different from US. It was the right wing government in Britain that legalised gay marriage. I do understand America is far more polarised than Europe

Ok, right wing. I am firmly against the "welfare state" concept taken to the extreme of the British labour party. I do believe the state has an obligation to the people but it works both ways.
A system in which the able bodied are fit to work but supported by the state is abhorrent to me. I believe in national service, note I do not mean military, the able bodied should serve the state in return for support from the state.

Of course the elderly and the disabled should be supported.

I belueve in more right wing, militant geo-politics but not the reckless "democracy or bust" crap that caused all this mess in the middle east.

Kinda hard to just list right wing beliefs to be honest, could be here all day making a list without context to said belief.

It's a 10 hour shift in one cup of tea. I somehow read "right wing beliegs" as right wrong beliefs