Principia Discordia

I'm fucking fed up with it. What do we have to do, as a society, to end this bullshit?

One of the things that pisses me off is how much of a taboo is built around it. It makes people SO FUCKING UNCOMFORTABLE. I'm increasingly aware that the phrase "It's best to put it behind you" is code for "What happened to you makes me uncomfortable and I don't want to think about it". It has nothing to do with healing, or growth, or moving forward; it's entirely about the mental convenience of other people. Don't talk about it. For the love of god, if you must talk about it, be vague, speak in the third person, and don't give specifics of your own experience. It makes them cringe. Your pain makes them cringe. Their cringing is half the reason for your pain.

People convince themselves that there are rules of behavior for avoiding being raped, so that they can be filled with the smug complacency of "it won't happen to me". It's like pretending that the tsunami in Japan occurred because they prayed to the wrong gods; it gives people a sense of security and control. But, it's a false sense of security and control. Sometimes there are things you could have done differently (listen to your foreboding when the man follows you outside, and go back inside until he's gone) and sometimes there aren't (you couldn't have known he slipped into your apartment while you were taking the garbage out) but all the rest of it... pretending that it has to do with low-cut tops, short skirts, talking to strange men, walking alone at night, or being alone in bars... that's all wishful thinking designed to assuage our own discomfort with the idea that there are human predators out there choosing who to rape on the basis of the probability that they can get away with it. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rapes happen either in the woman's home, or the home of the rapist. Dark alleyways? Not so much. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rape victims are raped by someone they know. A friend of a friend, in a situation they had no reason to distrust.

One of the pieces of advice that's commonly given women is that to avoid being raped, they should vary their routine. That is to say, to not leave the house at the same time every day, or take the same route, or return home at the same time every day.

So that pretty much rules out having a job. Or even taking the kids to school.

There is virtually no punishment for rape in America. Most rapes are not reported and those few that are reported are rarely successfully prosecuted. The rapist gets a second chance, but the victim does not. The victim takes the blame for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Worse yet are the consequences to her personal and romantic life; not only are the emotional damages staggering, such that she may start pushing away people that she loves and whose support she craves, but also the fear around rape is so profound that, without even knowing it, often husbands or lovers will distance themselves. Suddenly they simply don't have the desire they once had, or they've decided they just want something different from their lives.

What they want is a woman who hasn't been shadowed by the touch of fear, by the frightening taboo, but they could never recognize, let alone voice that. So, guilt-ridden, they come up with excuses for why they leave. Excuses that are usually not hard to find, as, flailing in her confusion and pain, she is not the easiest person to live with. And then she is left alone with it, wondering how to start over.

Just one more way rape is the gift that keeps on giving.

Very :mittens:

 :mittens: Fuck yeah!

I am by no means an expert on the topic (in all honesty, I have no experience on the topic. If I'm way off, set me straight.) but I'm currently lead to beleive that part of this issue is caused by a combination of attitudes comprising our cultural climate. For one, there is the puritanical attitude towards sex/sexuality anywhere outside advertising media within our american cultural sphere. People are constantly told to abolish all "impure" sexual thoughts because it's "evil" or "wrong," but then those same people get bombarded by images of a sexual nature everywhere they look: TV, internet, billboards, etc.. The insinuation that thoughts/feelings of a sexual nature are negative things can lead people to make the association that sex=evil, I, secretly, really like sex, therefore I=evil. If someone, even wrongly, assumes that for some reason they are a bad person it can start a self-fulfilling prophecy. Also, the advertising images in combination with the taboo leads to a general de-personalization of people in sexual contexts, making the association between "sex" and "product," as opposed to a connection between two people.

It's no doubt a complicated issue, but I feel that, like a lot of other issues, it is exacerbated by fundamentalist religious groups/beleifs and advertising media sending out information that directly conflicts each other, not to mention reality.

But, I whole-heartedly agree that this is a difficult thing to begin to discuss. Hell, I haven't even used the word "rape" till just now...

I think that in particular, the male aversion to the subject of rape is rooted in fear. Fear of being like a rapist, fear of their own sexuality as a male, fear of becoming involuntarily aroused by the thought of rape (many perfectly normal men do), fear of what that means, fear of having something in common with the rapist. So they run away and avoid the subject.

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 06:15:23 PM
I think that in particular, the male aversion to the subject of rape is rooted in fear. Fear of being like a rapist, fear of their own sexuality as a male, fear of becoming involuntarily aroused by the thought of rape (many perfectly normal men do), fear of what that means, fear of having something in common with the rapist. So they run away and avoid the subject.

I agree. And I suppose that's part of the problem. Fear prevents discourse, which can be a huge preventative measure, I would imagine. In your opinion, what constitutes a healthy discourse about rape?

Men are monsters. Or, at least, a part of them is. Most if not all men I expect but I don't got the statistics to back that up. Thing is a lot of men (the majority I'd like to think) have control over this monster. Some don't or some lose it for whatever reason, alcohol, obsession, moment of weakness. When that monster gets loose that's when it happens. I wish I had a solution or something, cos it's bang out of order but I got nothing other than my sympathy for someone who is on the receiving end of shit that I can't really understand, can't really relate to on any level other than it sounds like a really shit thing to go through. Generally more emotionally damaging than physically, as far as I've heard. I can relate to emotional and mental damage. To have something like that inflicted on me by some fuckhead? Yeah I can see how that could really fuck me up worse than a car crash or some other kind of physical crap.

I dunno about the statistics for the how's and when's and why's but I expect the situations vary from the one-off, drunken grope turning into "what the fuck do you mean no?" to the serial stalker doing all the sneaky cat burglar shit you see in the movies and all points in between. I despise them for their weakness in letting the monster take control (it's not difficult to keep in check, most of us manage that just fine) or, in some cases, for becoming the monster. For letting it consume them. Fuck those bastards especially.

Quote from: Cuddleshift on July 23, 2011, 06:20:32 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 06:15:23 PM
I think that in particular, the male aversion to the subject of rape is rooted in fear. Fear of being like a rapist, fear of their own sexuality as a male, fear of becoming involuntarily aroused by the thought of rape (many perfectly normal men do), fear of what that means, fear of having something in common with the rapist. So they run away and avoid the subject.

I agree. And I suppose that's part of the problem. Fear prevents discourse, which can be a huge preventative measure, I would imagine. In your opinion, what constitutes a healthy discourse about rape?

A healthy discourse really starts with people just feeling able to talk about it openly without shame and without victim-blaming or shifting the responsibility for preventing rape to women.

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 23, 2011, 06:27:43 PM
Men are monsters. Or, at least, a part of them is. Most if not all men I expect but I don't got the statistics to back that up. Thing is a lot of men (the majority I'd like to think) have control over this monster. Some don't or some lose it for whatever reason, alcohol, obsession, moment of weakness. When that monster gets loose that's when it happens. I wish I had a solution or something, cos it's bang out of order but I got nothing other than my sympathy for someone who is on the receiving end of shit that I can't really understand, can't really relate to on any level other than it sounds like a really shit thing to go through. Generally more emotionally damaging than physically, as far as I've heard. I can relate to emotional and mental damage. To have something like that inflicted on me by some fuckhead? Yeah I can see how that could really fuck me up worse than a car crash or some other kind of physical crap.

I dunno about the statistics for the how's and when's and why's but I expect the situations vary from the one-off, drunken grope turning into "what the fuck do you mean no?" to the serial stalker doing all the sneaky cat burglar shit you see in the movies and all points in between. I despise them for their weakness in letting the monster take control (it's not difficult to keep in check, most of us manage that just fine) or, in some cases, for becoming the monster. For letting it consume them. Fuck those bastards especially.

I disagree completely. I think that one of the damaging stereotypes surrounding rape is that all men are just barely in control of their base instincts, and that therefore by tempting them, women can turn a good man into a rapist. The truth is, most men are not rapists and could not under any normal circumstances be turned into rapists. Most rapes are premeditated and carefully planned, not spontaneous.

Also, oh the irony; I posted this on Facebook and even though at least a couple of hundred people must have seen it by now, NOT ONE COMMENT. Or even a "like".  :lulz:

I bet if I'd posted an opinion on the latest episode of True Blood, it would have 80 comments by now.

Just posted it on the Crossroads, to see if the users there have any more balls.

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 07:37:22 PM

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 23, 2011, 06:27:43 PM
Men are monsters. Or, at least, a part of them is. Most if not all men I expect but I don't got the statistics to back that up. Thing is a lot of men (the majority I'd like to think) have control over this monster. Some don't or some lose it for whatever reason, alcohol, obsession, moment of weakness. When that monster gets loose that's when it happens. I wish I had a solution or something, cos it's bang out of order but I got nothing other than my sympathy for someone who is on the receiving end of shit that I can't really understand, can't really relate to on any level other than it sounds like a really shit thing to go through. Generally more emotionally damaging than physically, as far as I've heard. I can relate to emotional and mental damage. To have something like that inflicted on me by some fuckhead? Yeah I can see how that could really fuck me up worse than a car crash or some other kind of physical crap.

I dunno about the statistics for the how's and when's and why's but I expect the situations vary from the one-off, drunken grope turning into "what the fuck do you mean no?" to the serial stalker doing all the sneaky cat burglar shit you see in the movies and all points in between. I despise them for their weakness in letting the monster take control (it's not difficult to keep in check, most of us manage that just fine) or, in some cases, for becoming the monster. For letting it consume them. Fuck those bastards especially.

I disagree completely. I think that one of the damaging stereotypes surrounding rape is that all men are just barely in control of their base instincts, and that therefore by tempting them, women can turn a good man into a rapist. The truth is, most men are not rapists and could not under any normal circumstances be turned into rapists. Most rapes are premeditated and carefully planned, not spontaneous.

I never said "barely in control"

Quote(it's not difficult to keep in check, most of us manage that just fine)

but it's in there. I know that. There's a kinda hunger I get when I see someone attractive to me sexually. It's deep, primal, dark and nasty but it isn't difficult to control in the slightest. It's like all shrivelled up, appendix-like, vestigial. As for most men turning into one, no argument here. AFAIK most men don't. QED. Didn't know about

QuoteMost rapes are premeditated and carefully planned, not spontaneous.

That surprised me. I'd always thought of those kind of cases as being like serial killers, kind rare and shit. Consider me educated.

I think that what you may be responding to in yourself is sexual shame, which is the idea that sex is bad and that sexual lust makes you a bad person. Either that or you are actually restraining the urge to rape, which as far as I know from reading psychology books, most men don't have. In which case, good for you for restraining it, but I think you might want to be careful about ascribing the urge to rape as common to all men.

Sexual shame, however, if very common, just due to the rather nasty fact that our society has labeled sex "bad" and "sinful" and that gets driven into most of us from a very early age whether we like it or not.

Thanks, Nigel, good post.

The way the culture and attitudes are about rape, it took me a LONG time to be able to talk about what happened to me.  (If you care, it's posted here, dig for it.)  What brought it up was a combination of factors...  GS (meaning absolutely NO harm whatsoever, and with no idea what he'd done) came up behind me at an SCA event.  I didn't hear him, I'd been drinking, and he (from HIS point of view) affectionately put his arms around me to give me a friendly hug.  From MY point of view, somebody came up behind me and grabbed me.  Flash back twenty years, and stifle the instinct to lay him out flat.

Add in someone at the right place, the right time, and the right comfort level for me to discuss it with shortly afterwards, and I managed to dig the crap I'd buried out and toss some sunlight on it.

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 05:26:22 PM
People convince themselves that there are rules of behavior for avoiding being raped, so that they can be filled with the smug complacency of "it won't happen to me". It's like pretending that the tsunami in Japan occurred because they prayed to the wrong gods; it gives people a sense of security and control. But, it's a false sense of security and control. Sometimes there are things you could have done differently (listen to your foreboding when the man follows you outside, and go back inside until he's gone) and sometimes there aren't (you couldn't have known he slipped into your apartment while you were taking the garbage out) but all the rest of it... pretending that it has to do with low-cut tops, short skirts, talking to strange men, walking alone at night, or being alone in bars... that's all wishful thinking designed to assuage our own discomfort with the idea that there are human predators out there choosing who to rape on the basis of the probability that they can get away with it. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rapes happen either in the woman's home, or the home of the rapist. Dark alleyways? Not so much. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rape victims are raped by someone they know. A friend of a friend, in a situation they had no reason to distrust.

I have argued this, particularly the bolded part, with more than one man (not picking on men, that's just who I've ended up talking about it with) and it's astounding and infuriating the way it doesn't fucking get through. Rape is not random, as you've pointed out, and yet I hear "you shouldn't be out and about by yourself after dark wearing that sexy jogging suit" or "if you don't do [insert behavior], then you're less likely to be raped" every single time I've argued it with someone. When it's pointed out that they're blaming the victim, they sort of ignore it with a "yeah, well..." and move on.
I don't get it.

It's good to get it out, even though it hurts to go through it again! I still jump when someone comes up behind me, and hate being cornered in a room with anyone even if they're not threatening or agitated. I don't know if that will change with any amount of therapy. Most likely that's from being beaten as a kid, though.

There are things I hesitate to talk about because I know how uncomfortable they make people. But if I hesitate, will people ever be able to talk about rape and understand it? Will victims always be afraid to talk because people will cringe? And furthermore, I'm not sure that having people know that shadowy "bad things" happened to me really makes them cringe any less. I'm still marked.

Quote from: Hover Cat on July 23, 2011, 10:52:49 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 05:26:22 PM
People convince themselves that there are rules of behavior for avoiding being raped, so that they can be filled with the smug complacency of "it won't happen to me". It's like pretending that the tsunami in Japan occurred because they prayed to the wrong gods; it gives people a sense of security and control. But, it's a false sense of security and control. Sometimes there are things you could have done differently (listen to your foreboding when the man follows you outside, and go back inside until he's gone) and sometimes there aren't (you couldn't have known he slipped into your apartment while you were taking the garbage out) but all the rest of it... pretending that it has to do with low-cut tops, short skirts, talking to strange men, walking alone at night, or being alone in bars... that's all wishful thinking designed to assuage our own discomfort with the idea that there are human predators out there choosing who to rape on the basis of the probability that they can get away with it. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rapes happen either in the woman's home, or the home of the rapist. Dark alleyways? Not so much. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rape victims are raped by someone they know. A friend of a friend, in a situation they had no reason to distrust.

I have argued this, particularly the bolded part, with more than one man (not picking on men, that's just who I've ended up talking about it with) and it's astounding and infuriating the way it doesn't fucking get through. Rape is not random, as you've pointed out, and yet I hear "you shouldn't be out and about by yourself after dark wearing that sexy jogging suit" or "if you don't do [insert behavior], then you're less likely to be raped" every single time I've argued it with someone. When it's pointed out that they're blaming the victim, they sort of ignore it with a "yeah, well..." and move on.
I don't get it.

It makes them feel safer.

They shroud it in words like "taking responsibility for your safety" and "reducing risk" and "being practical" because they don't understand how rape actually happens, and furthermore, they don't want to.

"The Gift of Fear" is a book that I think everyone, man and woman, should read. It talks about how the right "precautions" are listening to your instincts and not being afraid to seem rude. Most rapes don't happen through random chance. Rapists choose their victims because they see vulnerability, not because they see cleavage. But the thing is, really, mitigating vulnerability is incredibly difficult without abandoning most freedoms and accepting constant male chaperonage, which leaves us completely vulnerable to... oh yeah. Rape. But it would be rape only by those with the assigned right to rape us; our fathers, brothers, and husbands.

Why does that not seem like an improvement?

Personally, I think that the best possible rape mitigation factor is to make your body a dangerous weapon, and to listen to your instincts.

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 08:15:13 PM
I think that what you may be responding to in yourself is sexual shame, which is the idea that sex is bad and that sexual lust makes you a bad person. Either that or you are actually restraining the urge to rape, which as far as I know from reading psychology books, most men don't have. In which case, good for you for restraining it, but I think you might want to be careful about ascribing the urge to rape as common to all men.

Sexual shame, however, if very common, just due to the rather nasty fact that our society has labeled sex "bad" and "sinful" and that gets driven into most of us from a very early age whether we like it or not.

I don't think all men have that urge, I do think a large enough portion of men have it that if it were not usually kept in check it would be very bad.  I doubt that many of those men who do have that urge would be capable of actually raping someone.  

We all fantasize about terrible things sometimes.  Running that car that cut you off in traffic off the road.  Shooting that damn annoying dog that the neighbor has that keeps shitting on the lawn and tearing into your garbage.  Raping that attractive and extremely frustrating woman that made you feel like less of a man.  We don't all fantasize about doing the same awful things, but we all fantasize about some awful.  That doesn't mean we would give in, or even could bring ourselves to do the awful things we fantasize about.

ETA: we refers to both men and women.

Quote from: Hover Cat on July 23, 2011, 10:52:49 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 05:26:22 PM
People convince themselves that there are rules of behavior for avoiding being raped, so that they can be filled with the smug complacency of "it won't happen to me". It's like pretending that the tsunami in Japan occurred because they prayed to the wrong gods; it gives people a sense of security and control. But, it's a false sense of security and control. Sometimes there are things you could have done differently (listen to your foreboding when the man follows you outside, and go back inside until he's gone) and sometimes there aren't (you couldn't have known he slipped into your apartment while you were taking the garbage out) but all the rest of it... pretending that it has to do with low-cut tops, short skirts, talking to strange men, walking alone at night, or being alone in bars... that's all wishful thinking designed to assuage our own discomfort with the idea that there are human predators out there choosing who to rape on the basis of the probability that they can get away with it. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rapes happen either in the woman's home, or the home of the rapist. Dark alleyways? Not so much. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rape victims are raped by someone they know. A friend of a friend, in a situation they had no reason to distrust.

I have argued this, particularly the bolded part, with more than one man (not picking on men, that's just who I've ended up talking about it with) and it's astounding and infuriating the way it doesn't fucking get through. Rape is not random, as you've pointed out, and yet I hear "you shouldn't be out and about by yourself after dark wearing that sexy jogging suit" or "if you don't do [insert behavior], then you're less likely to be raped" every single time I've argued it with someone. When it's pointed out that they're blaming the victim, they sort of ignore it with a "yeah, well..." and move on.
I don't get it.

When I was helping to teach self-defense to a group of teenage girls, years ago now, the main instructor repeated pretty much all of these tropes.  Even back then, I knew that wasn't right.  Along with the potentially deadly (for the students) techniques he was teaching ("traditional" stances bastardized to possibly cause a little damage to an assailant - not enough to floor the fucker, but probably enough to get him angry enough to smack a woman around), I couldn't continue that class in good faith.  You teach nasty, simple moves that are going to put someone on the ground where they cannot get back up, and give students the facts about rape so they can better avoid it - not teach traditional tripe and moralize at them. 

I also gave a detailed report to the school about the unsuitability of the course they were providing, though I doubt they listened much.

Ugh. Probably not. :(

We at least had an effective self defense class taught by two former victims after a girl from one of our sister high schools was raped, and they taught those sort of moves. Which was fortunate, since about a year later another girl was attacked and fended the would-be rapist off with what she was taught.

From the reading I've been doing, rape seems to be mostly a violent reaction to a sense of powerlessness. What I've read fairly strongly indicates that the best rape prevention is child abuse prevention, and counseling for abused children.

Funny, because that's also the best prevention for drug addiction.

So, if we could just get people to quit hitting, fucking, and humiliating their kids...

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 24, 2011, 04:24:45 AM

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 08:15:13 PM
I think that what you may be responding to in yourself is sexual shame, which is the idea that sex is bad and that sexual lust makes you a bad person. Either that or you are actually restraining the urge to rape, which as far as I know from reading psychology books, most men don't have. In which case, good for you for restraining it, but I think you might want to be careful about ascribing the urge to rape as common to all men.

Sexual shame, however, if very common, just due to the rather nasty fact that our society has labeled sex "bad" and "sinful" and that gets driven into most of us from a very early age whether we like it or not.

I don't think all men have that urge, I do think a large enough portion of men have it that if it were not usually kept in check it would be very bad.  I doubt that many of those men who do have that urge would be capable of actually raping someone.  

We all fantasize about terrible things sometimes.  Running that car that cut you off in traffic off the road.  Shooting that damn annoying dog that the neighbor has that keeps shitting on the lawn and tearing into your garbage.  Raping that attractive and extremely frustrating woman that made you feel like less of a man.  We don't all fantasize about doing the same awful things, but we all fantasize about some awful.  That doesn't mean we would give in, or even could bring ourselves to do the awful things we fantasize about.

ETA: we refers to both men and women.

Yes, I have very ugly violent fantasies at times. Most of us do, especially those who have been targets for violence.

The thing is, it's not the momentary sexual/violent urge toward a specific person that results in rape. You may feel it and think "Now I understand the urge to rape", but what most people refuse to even hear, let alone absorb, even within this very conversation, is that most of the time, a rapist has already decided to rape before they pick out a victim.

I don't know why people don't want to hear that. Maybe it makes rape seem more frightening and less avoidable. But it's REALLY important, if you actually want to avoid being raped. Murder is more likely to be a crime of passion, done when emotions are high, toward a specific person, in the heat of the moment, than rape is. The rape victim isn't usually anyone in particular to the rapist... she (or he) is just convenient. And rapists don't usually rape only once, they do it over and over and over again, usually without consequences.

Quote from: Nigel on July 24, 2011, 06:36:20 PM
And rapists don't usually rape only once, they do it over and over and over again, usually without consequences.

That's the part that really gets me...  I didn't report my attack... so the son of a bitch was never caught... which means that somebody else, at least one other somebody, probably more, was hurt because I said nothing.

I was younger, then, I was scared, and I figured I had nothing to report, really, since I never got a real look at him and couldn't have picked him out of a lineup... but I should have reported it.

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 06:15:23 PM
I think that in particular, the male aversion to the subject of rape is rooted in fear. Fear of being like a rapist, fear of their own sexuality as a male, fear of becoming involuntarily aroused by the thought of rape (many perfectly normal men do), fear of what that means, fear of having something in common with the rapist. So they run away and avoid the subject.

I'll bite. I can only speak for myself, as a male. I haven't been taught the proper distinction between appropriate and inappropriate sexual conduct. Instead, I have been taught, (as far as I can recall from a catholic upbringing -where we don't actually talk about it at all) that sex is completely and entirely taboo. There is no appropriate venue for frank and open sexual talk or action. This is at odds with the reality of my mammalian inheritance, and my personal life experience and philosophy. Nonetheless, when confronted with rape, or any inappropriate sexual behavior, my default, trained reaction is to blame all sexuality, to blame my own sexuality in particular as the root cause of the problem. So what is needed, from my perspective, is a better parsing algorithm for distinguishing between what is and is not proper sexual behavior. My personal algorithm is this: if everybody is cool with it, proceed. I'm certainly not interested if the other person isn't. The biggest turn on for me is that I turn the other person on.

So what's the problem?

Learning that all sexuality is bad teaches you to treat "good" things as "bad". So then, we can just blame all kinds of real-world bad things like rape as a consequence of sexuality in general, rather than as, I dunno, whatever it is -as rape (or whatever). Rape doesn't have to be anything other than what it is.

Perhaps what we need is more specificity. We need completely open, detailed discussion about all the awesome stuff that can be done with regard to the penises and vaginas and ears and other body parts when rubbed up against one another. And then a brief discussion about the pretty simple idea that you shouldn't do any of this stuff without permission from all parties involved, including any people with whom you have a standing agreement prohibiting bodily rubbing with other people. There are other vagaries involving age and competence which are a little more vague...perhaps they should be discussed as such.

Fucking honesty. That's what we need. Honesty. Lay your damn cards on the table.

My point here is not about rape, but about the male response to discussion about rape, from my personal perspective as a male. It can be uncomfortable to talk about inappropriate sexual behavior because I learned that all discussion of and engagement in sexual behavior is inappropriate. We learn that sex is dirty and bad and it should be saved for the one person you love, which makes no sense at all. So my mind is all muddled to begin with. Then, you approach this completely muddled territory with something that is actually and undeniably terrible, and suddenly I am grasping for a frame of reference; I don't know which way is up.

Common scenario: I see someone in a bar or wherever and think she is sexy and want to have sex with her. This immediately triggers trained thought patterns saying this is bad. But is it? Right here is the root of why I can't rationally proceed. I have been told my sexual desires are bad. So now I am confused. How far away from a rapist am I? Does it make me a rapist to want to bang that chick over there? Does it make me a want-to-be-rapist? Do I have to exercise self-control to stop myself? My rational answer is no, of course not. I don't want to rape her, nor have I, so I am neither a rapist in desire nor action. But there is this muddling of the sexual waters that causes all sorts of unpleasantness.

What we need are big billboards with PSA's of the folowing design. A picture of a pretty female human in a typical habitat, at a bar, or on campus holding some books. The words: Guys, it's okay to want to fuck her, but it's not okay to fuck her unless she wants you to, so ask her first. It's also okay to ask. Also, it's still okay to want to.

Then, once we all get this: That it's totally okay to want to bang the shit out of the girl you just saw in the cereal isle of the Publix, as long as you don't go and actually try to do it without her permission, then we can start talking about rape.

Oh Phlogiston, I think you are so spot on! And it's not that lust and arousal are disconnected from rape, it's just that they are not the driving motivations behind rape, but most men, who have been raised to believe that lust and arousal are "bad", get confused about that and feel guilty for feelings that are only about lust and arousal, not about power, violence, and control. Even though lust and arousal only BECOME bad when they are linked with power, violence, and control.

Luna, most reported rapes do not result in conviction. I'm not even sure they SHOULD, because in most cases it's he-said, she-said, and rape cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, seriously, that's the last thing you should beat yourself up about.

I think reporting is important, but not in the sense that it actually gets rapists off the streets. It just helps shine light on the magnitude of the problem.

Quote from: Nigel on July 25, 2011, 06:40:19 AM
Luna, most reported rapes do not result in conviction. I'm not even sure they SHOULD, because in most cases it's he-said, she-said, and rape cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, seriously, that's the last thing you should beat yourself up about.

I think reporting is important, but not in the sense that it actually gets rapists off the streets. It just helps shine light on the magnitude of the problem.

Considering what a woman has to go through if she does report a rape I can't blame most victims for keeping quiet.  I'm admittedly basing that assumption on fictional and newspaper accounts of what she has to go through, but neither the medical rape kit procedure nor the police getting the information they need to have a chance of catching/prosecuting the rapist sound at all pleasant.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 25, 2011, 01:48:32 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 25, 2011, 06:40:19 AM
Luna, most reported rapes do not result in conviction. I'm not even sure they SHOULD, because in most cases it's he-said, she-said, and rape cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, seriously, that's the last thing you should beat yourself up about.

I think reporting is important, but not in the sense that it actually gets rapists off the streets. It just helps shine light on the magnitude of the problem.

Considering what a woman has to go through if she does report a rape I can't blame most victims for keeping quiet.  I'm admittedly basing that assumption on fictional and newspaper accounts of what she has to go through, but neither the medical rape kit procedure nor the police getting the information they need to have a chance of catching/prosecuting the rapist sound at all pleasant.

And, this was over 20 years ago.  Things were worse back then.

Quote from: Luna on July 25, 2011, 01:59:49 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 25, 2011, 01:48:32 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 25, 2011, 06:40:19 AM
Luna, most reported rapes do not result in conviction. I'm not even sure they SHOULD, because in most cases it's he-said, she-said, and rape cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, seriously, that's the last thing you should beat yourself up about.

I think reporting is important, but not in the sense that it actually gets rapists off the streets. It just helps shine light on the magnitude of the problem.

Considering what a woman has to go through if she does report a rape I can't blame most victims for keeping quiet.  I'm admittedly basing that assumption on fictional and newspaper accounts of what she has to go through, but neither the medical rape kit procedure nor the police getting the information they need to have a chance of catching/prosecuting the rapist sound at all pleasant.

And, this was over 20 years ago.  Things were worse back then.

I've heard from people who work with rape victims that it's better now, but still pretty traumatizing.

I don't doubt it.  There's no good way to make someone who's been violated relive it.

Reading this thread has been very informative for me (and it's nice to see that my original post was not way off). Thing for me is, I don't know of anyone that has been a victim of rape, or, at least, don't know of anyone that is comfortable enough with me to share that experience, in my personal life. The fact that it's not talked about means I'll likely never know that a good friend of mine has suffered such an assault. That said, in general, are there things that should not be said? Should I, knowing that there's the potential that someone in my social circle has been a victim of rape, avoid certain verbage in casual conversation? Basically, as a person with no immediate involvment in the area of sexual assault, what can I do to help?

Quote from: Cuddleshift on July 25, 2011, 06:13:38 PM
Reading this thread has been very informative for me (and it's nice to see that my original post was not way off). Thing for me is, I don't know of anyone that has been a victim of rape, or, at least, don't know of anyone that is comfortable enough with me to share that experience, in my personal life. The fact that it's not talked about means I'll likely never know that a good friend of mine has suffered such an assault. That said, in general, are there things that should not be said? Should I, knowing that there's the potential that someone in my social circle has been a victim of rape, avoid certain verbage in casual conversation? Basically, as a person with no immediate involvment in the area of sexual assault, what can I do to help?

Me, I sometimes feel that the word, itself, is grossly misused.  No, the Red Sox didn't get raped, they LOST.  Maybe they got ripped off, but, it's a fair bet they got to keep their pants on until they hit the showers.  Unless baseball has changed vastly since I watched it last, nobody got raped.

Some of us will have triggers.  Me, don't sneak up behind me and grab me.  If I know you're there, it's cool, if I don't, I will either panic and freeze, or try to tear your nuts off.  That's me, with someone else, it could be anything else. 

Just... be aware, it could have happened to anyone.

So, this is more than just language. Thing is, I can control my language, that's easy. However, if I don't know if someone has experienced this (due to lack of open dialogue), then must I not engage in friendly horseplay? I don't think any one here would try to insinuate that, but again, if I don't know about an individuals history in regards to rape, then how can I know that something, which is seemingly harmless to me, is actually a trigger for unpleasant memories? I s'pose, simply put, are there visual cues that I can look for to help regulate MY behaviour, as to not, unwillingly, make a friend uncomfortable?

Quote from: Cuddleshift on July 25, 2011, 06:45:23 PM
So, this is more than just language. Thing is, I can control my language, that's easy. However, if I don't know if someone has experienced this (due to lack of open dialogue), then must I not engage in friendly horseplay? I don't think any one here would try to insinuate that, but again, if I don't know about an individuals history in regards to rape, then how can I know that something, which is seemingly harmless to me, is actually a trigger for unpleasant memories? I s'pose, simply put, are there visual cues that I can look for to help regulate MY behaviour, as to not, unwillingly, make a friend uncomfortable?

There's the problem.  We've met, you didn't see anything at the Meatup that would have told you, because nobody did it.  I probably got grabbed playing Not Under My Roof... but I knew who was there, and what was going on, so it was cool.  You wouldn't know, if I didn't talk about it here.

When GS DID set me off, he missed the cue.  I froze, and went stiff as a board.  That should have told him to let me go, right NOW, particularly since that's not how I usually react to a hug.  He was, however, drunk as a sailor at the time, and missed it.  (He and I had a little talk, later.)  If you DO trip over one, apologize, and try to not do it again, that's the best I can offer.

Quote from: Cuddleshift on July 25, 2011, 06:45:23 PM
So, this is more than just language. Thing is, I can control my language, that's easy. However, if I don't know if someone has experienced this (due to lack of open dialogue), then must I not engage in friendly horseplay? I don't think any one here would try to insinuate that, but again, if I don't know about an individuals history in regards to rape, then how can I know that something, which is seemingly harmless to me, is actually a trigger for unpleasant memories? I s'pose, simply put, are there visual cues that I can look for to help regulate MY behaviour, as to not, unwillingly, make a friend uncomfortable?

Honestly, if you just pay attention and are considerate, you will see. You probably ALREADY pay attention and are considerate, so you rarely trigger people.

Some people who have been raped can handle joking about rape (I, for some twisted reason, find it mostly hilarious when it's used in an absurdist context, like "You gon' get raped" or "You can't spell grapes without rape!") but others will get a look like you just punched them in the stomach. Some people enjoy horseplay and some people freeze up. If you are at all sensitive, you KNOW when someone freezes up, or is unreceptive, and you back right off... most people do it unconsciously.

Most women won't tell a male friend that they've been raped or abused in the past, unless they are very emotionally close. Hell, most women won't tell their FEMALE friends, because either they feel afraid and ashamed to admit it because it makes them feel different and "marked", or because they think it falls into the category "things nobody wants to hear about". That's why I am open about it. In return, people are very open about it with me. What's astonishing and horrible is that out of my immediate circle of female friends and acquaintances, so far, I know only two who have never been raped or abused. Most of the men I know haven't been, but quite a few have.

Some people are not inherently sensitive, like this one guy I know who absolutely doesn't pick up on nonverbal cues at all. His housemates had to sit him down and tell him that he was making their women friends uncomfortable... and then he cried. He really didn't mean to. It was sad. Better to err on the side of caution than to accidentally put yourself in that position, I think... that would be heartbreaking and humiliating.

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 12:06:07 AM

Quote from: Cuddleshift on July 25, 2011, 06:45:23 PM
So, this is more than just language. Thing is, I can control my language, that's easy. However, if I don't know if someone has experienced this (due to lack of open dialogue), then must I not engage in friendly horseplay? I don't think any one here would try to insinuate that, but again, if I don't know about an individuals history in regards to rape, then how can I know that something, which is seemingly harmless to me, is actually a trigger for unpleasant memories? I s'pose, simply put, are there visual cues that I can look for to help regulate MY behaviour, as to not, unwillingly, make a friend uncomfortable?

Honestly, if you just pay attention and are considerate, you will see. You probably ALREADY pay attention and are considerate, so you rarely trigger people.

Some people who have been raped can handle joking about rape (I, for some twisted reason, find it mostly hilarious when it's used in an absurdist context, like "You gon' get raped" or "You can't spell grapes without rape!") but others will get a look like you just punched them in the stomach. Some people enjoy horseplay and some people freeze up. If you are at all sensitive, you KNOW when someone freezes up, or is unreceptive, and you back right off... most people do it unconsciously.

Most women won't tell a male friend that they've been raped or abused in the past, unless they are very emotionally close. Hell, most women won't tell their FEMALE friends, because either they feel afraid and ashamed to admit it because it makes them feel different and "marked", or because they think it falls into the category "things nobody wants to hear about". That's why I am open about it. In return, people are very open about it with me. What's astonishing and horrible is that out of my immediate circle of female friends and acquaintances, so far, I know only two who have never been raped or abused. Most of the men I know haven't been, but quite a few have.

Some people are not inherently sensitive, like this one guy I know who absolutely doesn't pick up on nonverbal cues at all. His housemates had to sit him down and tell him that he was making their women friends uncomfortable... and then he cried. He really didn't mean to. It was sad. Better to err on the side of caution than to accidentally put yourself in that position, I think... that would be heartbreaking and humiliating.

Love this answer, Nigel.

Also think it's really cool, Cuddleshift, that you care enough about your friends' comfort to ask these questions.  :-)

dimo-

secretly a people person...

I joke about rape, fairly often.  I can usually tell when there is someone I should not do it around, she lets me know clearly, and once that happens I know to be careful about initiating touch, especially surprise touch.

The jokes serve as a sort of an early warning system.  Not always accurate, but better than nothing, and nobody is going to be truly traumatized by a stupid joke.

It took a lot of inner strength to make the OP!

I'm glad you've come to a point you are able to do that Nigel!

Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

You've done much better than I!  It's very hard to come to any kind of terms with.

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
...
but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.
...

Good lord!  I'm sorry to hear that.  :sad:
Did you take a chunk out of the fellow, hopefully?

Yes, it is. And I am trying to figure out all of the many reasons why.

Quote from: Iptuous on July 26, 2011, 05:31:33 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
...
but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.
...

Good lord!  I'm sorry to hear that.  :sad:
Did you take a chunk out of the fellow, hopefully?

I got away by laughing at him. Oddly.

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

To the first, yes I do have those fantasies, and write fiction about them.

As I said before, we all have awful inside us, putting it in the right place (fiction in my case) rather than the wrong place (in my case that'd probably be passive aggressive frustrated bullshit, I don't have it in me to actually rape or kill anyone, but it's manifested as escapism through drugs and other self destructive behaviors before.  it's not ok to hurt other people, I can still hurt me) is a struggle for everyone. 

To the second, that was due to a misunderstanding on my part as to the trauma level of rape.  Since I have had some women open up to me about the experiences that they had as children I have changed that position completely.

I hope you kicked the shit out of your attacker last fall and then the police did the same.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 05:57:57 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

To the first, yes I do have those fantasies, and write fiction about them.

Which is a way of indulging, thus enforcing, those fantasies.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2011, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 05:57:57 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

To the first, yes I do have those fantasies, and write fiction about them.

Which is a way of indulging, thus enforcing, those fantasies.

Yep, but until I can afford therapy it's the most effective way I have found so far to keep it from manifesting in my life in negative ways.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:06:28 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2011, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 05:57:57 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

To the first, yes I do have those fantasies, and write fiction about them.

Which is a way of indulging, thus enforcing, those fantasies.

Yep, but until I can afford therapy it's the most effective way I have found so far to keep it from manifesting in my life in negative ways.

You are in the US right?

Quote from: Khara on July 26, 2011, 06:14:41 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:06:28 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2011, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 05:57:57 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

To the first, yes I do have those fantasies, and write fiction about them.

Which is a way of indulging, thus enforcing, those fantasies.

Yep, but until I can afford therapy it's the most effective way I have found so far to keep it from manifesting in my life in negative ways.

You are in the US right?

yes I am, and on medicaid.  The only therapist in my area who accepts medicaid I have already discovered is completely incompatible with me.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:16:16 PM

Quote from: Khara on July 26, 2011, 06:14:41 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:06:28 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2011, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 05:57:57 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

To the first, yes I do have those fantasies, and write fiction about them.

Which is a way of indulging, thus enforcing, those fantasies.

Yep, but until I can afford therapy it's the most effective way I have found so far to keep it from manifesting in my life in negative ways.

You are in the US right?

yes I am, and on medicaid.  The only therapist in my area who accepts medicaid I have already discovered is completely incompatible with me.

Medicaid is thru out the state not just your city.  In any event, you always have the option of checking yourself into the psych ward, then whatever Dr you are assigned will have to accept you insurance.  I would start trying outside your immediate area. 

Only saying because as a whole I think you are smart and funny, but the whole death/sex/violence thing is really hard to overcome. 

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:06:28 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2011, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 05:57:57 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

To the first, yes I do have those fantasies, and write fiction about them.

Which is a way of indulging, thus enforcing, those fantasies.

Yep, but until I can afford therapy it's the most effective way I have found so far to keep it from manifesting in my life in negative ways.

Horseshit.  It's enabling it, not "using it up".  People don't fucking function that way.  There is no "perversion battery" that you can drain off.  The more you indulge it, the worse it gets.

I heard the same argument from the sick fucks at Little Angels Hentai.  It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now.

I appreciate that Khara.

Checking myself into a psych ward isn't an option right now.  My wife has fibromyalgia and there are things that she needs me to do for her in our day to day lives, I'm also the cook and the primary caregiver for our daughter.

We'd also be suffering a lot without the income that I bring in.  I am the one that puts in hours to be eligible for aid and her income is far from enough to support us.

Driving to a therapist is not currently an option, because of the cost of gas and the distance to the nearest town of any real use, plus I don't drive so my wife would have to drive me back and forth and she's currently working full time so that is also not an option.

If our financial situation turns around, which the prospects look good for it doing soon, we'll be able to get private insurance and I can try out the other local therapists.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2011, 06:28:36 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:06:28 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 26, 2011, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 05:57:57 PM

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 05:21:47 PM
Thanks Khara! I've been talking pretty openly about rape for about 20 years, but I'm recently re-pissed-off again after being assaulted last fall.

Babylon, don't you have, and nurture by writing fiction about, fantasies about raping and killing people? And you stated that you would prefer your child be raped and killed than raped and survive? I think you may be not a person who has much valid input in this dialogue, other than as an object lesson.

To the first, yes I do have those fantasies, and write fiction about them.

Which is a way of indulging, thus enforcing, those fantasies.

Yep, but until I can afford therapy it's the most effective way I have found so far to keep it from manifesting in my life in negative ways.

Horseshit.  It's enabling it, not "using it up".  People don't fucking function that way.  There is no "perversion battery" that you can drain off.  The more you indulge it, the worse it gets.

I heard the same argument from the sick fucks at Little Angels Hentai.  It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now.

I'm not saying it makes it go away.  I'm saying that my previous attempt at repressing it ended up causing me to express it in ways that were more negative.

Until I'm able to afford professional help this is the best way I have found to deal with it.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:33:29 PM
I appreciate that Khara.

Checking myself into a psych ward isn't an option right now.  My wife has fibromyalgia and there are things that she needs me to do for her in our day to day lives, I'm also the cook and the primary caregiver for our daughter.

We'd also be suffering a lot without the income that I bring in.  I am the one that puts in hours to be eligible for aid and her income is far from enough to support us.

Driving to a therapist is not currently an option, because of the cost of gas and the distance to the nearest town of any real use, plus I don't drive so my wife would have to drive me back and forth and she's currently working full time so that is also not an option.

If our financial situation turns around, which the prospects look good for it doing soon, we'll be able to get private insurance and I can try out the other local therapists.

Aren't you on SSI or RSDI income? Is there a state law where you live that says you would lose your income if you checked into a psych ward? From the little I know about it, you wouldn't lose that income and patients can appoint a rep payee to take care of their bills during the time they're in the hospital. In your case, you could have your wife cash your checks & pay the bills (if she isn't already doing this?) while you're in the psych ward.
If you actually want help, that is. 

Quote from: Eve Hill on July 26, 2011, 09:57:23 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:33:29 PM
I appreciate that Khara.

Checking myself into a psych ward isn't an option right now.  My wife has fibromyalgia and there are things that she needs me to do for her in our day to day lives, I'm also the cook and the primary caregiver for our daughter.

We'd also be suffering a lot without the income that I bring in.  I am the one that puts in hours to be eligible for aid and her income is far from enough to support us.

Driving to a therapist is not currently an option, because of the cost of gas and the distance to the nearest town of any real use, plus I don't drive so my wife would have to drive me back and forth and she's currently working full time so that is also not an option.

If our financial situation turns around, which the prospects look good for it doing soon, we'll be able to get private insurance and I can try out the other local therapists.

Aren't you on SSI or RSDI income? Is there a state law where you live that says you would lose your income if you checked into a psych ward? From the little I know about it, you wouldn't lose that income and patients can appoint a rep payee to take care of their bills during the time they're in the hospital. In your case, you could have your wife cash your checks & pay the bills (if she isn't already doing this?) while you're in the psych ward.
If you actually want help, that is. 

No SSI or RSDI.  I would lose my income in a psych ward because I am required to put in volunteer time for the medicaid and food stamps and I wouldn't be able to do that. 

The fetish has been with me since I was a small child, so I don't expect it to be something that I'll be able to get rid of quickly, even with a good therapist.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 10:19:26 PM

Quote from: Eve Hill on July 26, 2011, 09:57:23 PM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 26, 2011, 06:33:29 PM
I appreciate that Khara.

Checking myself into a psych ward isn't an option right now.  My wife has fibromyalgia and there are things that she needs me to do for her in our day to day lives, I'm also the cook and the primary caregiver for our daughter.

We'd also be suffering a lot without the income that I bring in.  I am the one that puts in hours to be eligible for aid and her income is far from enough to support us.

Driving to a therapist is not currently an option, because of the cost of gas and the distance to the nearest town of any real use, plus I don't drive so my wife would have to drive me back and forth and she's currently working full time so that is also not an option.

If our financial situation turns around, which the prospects look good for it doing soon, we'll be able to get private insurance and I can try out the other local therapists.

Aren't you on SSI or RSDI income? Is there a state law where you live that says you would lose your income if you checked into a psych ward? From the little I know about it, you wouldn't lose that income and patients can appoint a rep payee to take care of their bills during the time they're in the hospital. In your case, you could have your wife cash your checks & pay the bills (if she isn't already doing this?) while you're in the psych ward.
If you actually want help, that is.  

No SSI or RSDI.  I would lose my income in a psych ward because I am required to put in volunteer time for the medicaid and food stamps and I wouldn't be able to do that.  

The fetish has been with me since I was a small child, so I don't expect it to be something that I'll be able to get rid of quickly, even with a good therapist.

Oh, I see. Yeah that wouldn't help.

Good luck with finding a therapist you can work with. It's good to hear that you're looking. I don't imagine it would get fixed overnight either but even just starting therapy would be a step in the right direction.


(ETA - Rereading that..ugh, Captain Obvious statements. Shutting up now.)

There are books and online support groups, if he wanted help.

There's nothing out there in the dark that's not there in the daytime, and catatonic old women in nursing homes who look like hell get raped. People need to quit being stupid.

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on July 27, 2011, 12:29:05 AM
There's nothing out there in the dark that's not there in the daytime, and catatonic old women in nursing homes who look like hell get raped. People need to quit being stupid.

They don't want to quit.  They LIKE being stupid.

Quote from: Nigel on July 26, 2011, 11:20:42 PM
There are books and online support groups, if he wanted help.

Good point.

not sure if there's a more recent thread on this subject, but I just came across this very interesting article:

http://fuckyeahfemalemarines.tumblr.com/post/12766127286/to-all-those-men-who-dont-think-the-rape-jokes-are-a

It's about why rape jokes are always bad and while feminists don't actually believe that "all men are rapists", all rapists actually DO believe this.

That was kind of chilling.

The "rapists think all men are rapists" bit does not surprise me at all.  Most people generalize people are pretty much like them, plus it allows them to rationalise away their actions with the "everyone wants to do it, I just have the balls to go through with it" angle so many of them take.

Tying it into how they can receive incorrect signals through rape jokes is an interesting angle though, and one I had not previously considered.

That said, statistically speaking, 9/10 people do enjoy gang rape.

Quote from: Cain on November 30, 2011, 06:33:32 PM
The "rapists think all men are rapists" bit does not surprise me at all.  Most people generalize people are pretty much like them, plus it allows them to rationalise away their actions with the "everyone wants to do it, I just have the balls to go through with it" angle so many of them take.

Tying it into how they can receive incorrect signals through rape jokes is an interesting angle though, and one I had not previously considered.

That said, statistically speaking, 9/10 people do enjoy gang rape.

It does make perfect sense that rapists think all men are just like them.

It also makes something my ex said make me feel really uncomfortable. He told me that all men want to rape, and have to suppress the urge. I guess what that means is that he has that urge and assumes that all men do.

Ick.

It could be.  Or that he hung around with those kind of people and picked up on the signal from them, half-convincing himself it was true just so he didn't have to confront them and their ickier natures.

Quote from: Triple Zero on November 30, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
not sure if there's a more recent thread on this subject, but I just came across this very interesting article:

http://fuckyeahfemalemarines.tumblr.com/post/12766127286/to-all-those-men-who-dont-think-the-rape-jokes-are-a

It's about why rape jokes are always bad and while feminists don't actually believe that "all men are rapists", all rapists actually DO believe this.

Quote from: Cain on November 30, 2011, 06:33:32 PM
The "rapists think all men are rapists" bit does not surprise me at all.  Most people generalize people are pretty much like them, plus it allows them to rationalise away their actions with the "everyone wants to do it, I just have the balls to go through with it" angle so many of them take.

Tying it into how they can receive incorrect signals through rape jokes is an interesting angle though, and one I had not previously considered.

That said, statistically speaking, 9/10 people do enjoy gang rape.

Cain once again finds a loophole.   :lol:

I hadn't heard that angle before, and is chilling.

A month or two ago, SNL had this skit about Dominique Strauss-kahn. He goes to prison, is very nervous, and the twist is that the thugged out black convicts want to discuss finances with him. And at the end of the skit he thinks it's all going to be okay -- then they're like, "okay we're going to rape you now"

and the only reason I'd ever seen the skit is that a feminist blogger friend of mine wrote a screeching post about how rape is never ever funny under any circumstances. (And also that it's racist to use SNL's only two black cast members to depict a prison population) She was disgusted that the audience's laughter indicated they thought it would be funny that Dominique Strauss-kahn got prison-raped.

I was kind of annoyed by this position because I did kind of think it was funny... At the time I mentioned that humor is a really powerful defensive weapon. If we can laugh at the monster under the bed, he loses a little of his power over us.

That's not to say that I think it's a particularly funny topic... To my memory, I don't think I've made a rape joke (or a racist joke) in 10+ years. I don't TEND to find them funny. But sometimes they make me laugh, and I can't help that.

In Dominique Strauss-kahn's case, it's funny because he's in jail for sexual assault.. the audience laughs because it seems like he's getting what he deserves. It seems not far out of line with giving somebody the death penalty for killing people, which people joke about all the time. I wonder why rape is more taboo than murder. Is it because rape is more prevalent, and rapists blend in? I wonder.

As a Discordian, I tend to want to push buttons and laugh at forbidden jokes--as long as they're not at somebody's expense. I was one of the assholes telling 9/11 jokes on 9/12. I just wanted to break the ice on everybody's face.

The reporter asked Malaclypse, "why do you deal with so many negatives?"
and Malaclypse answered, "to dispel them."

I tell you this -- from here in, I will probably think twice before laughing at those jokes - funny or not.

I also laugh at some rape jokes, for that very reason... but I will certainly be more conscious of who the audience I am laughing in front of is. And often even though a joke will hit my triggers (I mean, once you've been raped it's almost impossible not to flash back when someone jokes about it) I will laugh, or at least fail to object, as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

I don't think the conclusion necessarily follows from the premesis.  So rapists think all men are rapists.  That makes sense.  It's this paragraph that I'm not sure about, and it's a pretty crucial one.

QuoteVirtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape.

I don't think jokes necessarily dismiss and normalize anything.  It's actually a bit of a leap that a rapist might hear a joke about rape and think to themselves "see, everyone's totally cool with it after all."  That's just not something that can actually be determined, and while I won't say it's impossible, it's definitely not certain.

A lot of different factors go into jokes.  Timing, delivery, etc.  One of them is surprise.  Jokes about sensitive subjects are funny because we don't exactly expect them.  That's the entire foundation of many, many types of jokes.  Whether or not they're okay, people laugh at things like dead baby jokes, rape jokes, cancer jokes because it's so outlandish that anyone would actually say them.  It doesn't make dead babies, or rape, or cancer any less serious.

Tasteless, yeah, probably.  Always definitely wrong, maybe.  Affirming the beliefs of the perpetrators of the act?  I'm not convinced.

Saying a type of joke is off limits just leads to more things being off limits.  Like Nigel said, it's about knowing your company and knowing your audience as best as you can.

Yeah okay, that particular line of reasoning isn't very solid. I kind of glossed over it, in fact.

The main reason I took from the article that rape jokes aren't okay is because they trigger the PTSD in rape victims and there's a good chance one is around, even if you don't know about it.

The bits about rapists believing all men rape is just an additional chilling fact to me, not really relevant to rape jokes.

If you make a joke involving something non-absurd like straight-up man-on-woman rape, it's probably worth keeping in mind, though, the odds that at least one person in your group has been raped and will involuntarily flashback to it as soon as they hear the joke. Even if they laugh.

So if you're gonna tell rape jokes, and you care about not hurting people, they should probably be of the implausible/absurd type. Not of the gritty "oh shit, that actually happens all the time" kind.

Well, yeah.

Quote from: Nigel on November 30, 2011, 09:15:38 PM
I also laugh at some rape jokes, for that very reason... but I will certainly be more conscious of who the audience I am laughing in front of is. And often even though a joke will hit my triggers (I mean, once you've been raped it's almost impossible not to flash back when someone jokes about it) I will laugh, or at least fail to object, as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

I was told a fairly absurd rape joke in all-male company and laughed. But that's exactly the reason why it instantly becomes unfunny to me in mixed company. I know that chances are disgustingly high that a female has been subjected to some kind of sexual abuse and is also not likely to broach the subject or convey how hurtful the joke actually was.

The apple/worm joke is good though. It's pretty much always funny.

Quote from: Nigel on November 30, 2011, 10:03:32 PM
If you make a joke involving something non-absurd like straight-up man-on-woman rape, it's probably worth keeping in mind, though, the odds that at least one person in your group has been raped and will involuntarily flashback to it as soon as they hear the joke. Even if they laugh.

So if you're gonna tell rape jokes, and you care about not hurting people, they should probably be of the implausible/absurd type. Not of the gritty "oh shit, that actually happens all the time" kind.

That's exactly what I took from the article.

Quote from: Nigel on December 01, 2011, 12:46:20 AM
The apple/worm joke is good though. It's pretty much always funny.

But one in six apples in the Illuminatus! Trilogy got raped.

Quote from: Cramulus on November 30, 2011, 09:09:04 PM
I hadn't heard that angle before, and is chilling.

A month or two ago, SNL had this skit about Dominique Strauss-kahn. He goes to prison, is very nervous, and the twist is that the thugged out black convicts want to discuss finances with him. And at the end of the skit he thinks it's all going to be okay -- then they're like, "okay we're going to rape you now"

and the only reason I'd ever seen the skit is that a feminist blogger friend of mine wrote a screeching post about how rape is never ever funny under any circumstances. (And also that it's racist to use SNL's only two black cast members to depict a prison population) She was disgusted that the audience's laughter indicated they thought it would be funny that Dominique Strauss-kahn got prison-raped.

I was kind of annoyed by this position because I did kind of think it was funny... At the time I mentioned that humor is a really powerful defensive weapon. If we can laugh at the monster under the bed, he loses a little of his power over us.

That's not to say that I think it's a particularly funny topic... To my memory, I don't think I've made a rape joke (or a racist joke) in 10+ years. I don't TEND to find them funny. But sometimes they make me laugh, and I can't help that.

In Dominique Strauss-kahn's case, it's funny because he's in jail for sexual assault.. the audience laughs because it seems like he's getting what he deserves. It seems not far out of line with giving somebody the death penalty for killing people, which people joke about all the time. I wonder why rape is more taboo than murder. Is it because rape is more prevalent, and rapists blend in? I wonder.

As a Discordian, I tend to want to push buttons and laugh at forbidden jokes--as long as they're not at somebody's expense. I was one of the assholes telling 9/11 jokes on 9/12. I just wanted to break the ice on everybody's face.

The reporter asked Malaclypse, "why do you deal with so many negatives?"
and Malaclypse answered, "to dispel them."

I tell you this -- from here in, I will probably think twice before laughing at those jokes - funny or not.

A friend of mine did her dissertation at university on the subject of attitudes towards male rape in general, with a focus on prison rape in humor.

The thing is, people trivialize it in their minds because, well, male rape is not as visible or talked about in 'serious' contexts as female rape. People assume that you just sort of shrug it off afterwards and go about your business. The reality is much, much worse.

I forget the statistics she quoted, but male rape has a far greater likelihood of leaving lasting physical damage than female rape. A significant number of young men leave prison and find themselves having to wear diapers for the rest of their lives after suffering horrific prolapse.

I never thought about it either, until she started to explain some of what she was working on to me. I can't laugh at those jokes any more, because every time I think about it I think about how these events ruin lives. I guess everyone knows rape is a traumatic and horrible thing, but for some reason the visceral nature of it just doesn't seem real until you're confronted by it.

Xpost from Totse

Prereading

General comments: I guess for me rape jokes seem to generally be in the class of shock humor, where the humor is derived from the fact that the joke itself is inappropriate.

Family Guy is a good example. In the first eposode they make a Jew joke; from the start there's humor taken from the fact that the jokes are a bit borderline. My problem with FG is that at some point the jokes stopped being 'lol a joke about rape' to 'lolrape'. That instead at laughing at the inappropriateness of joke, the scenario of rape itself is treated as funny.

The shock from transgressive humor offers catharsis. There is an awareness of the terrible nature if the dark things in the world. It's a way of saying, I know how horrific this is, and making the joke anyway, and the dissonance between the real thing and the joke is the origin of the humor. This is different to treating something like rape as funny in and of itself. This is the problem I have with IS's 'humor'. That his thoughts of the prevalence and definition of rape are disconnected from reality is telling; his jokes aren't transgressive, they're ignorant and rather than acting as a cultural code for dealing with the horrible truth, they help to promote an ignorance of the truth.

Post reading

Not a lot to add after reading, except I tend to agree; avoiding normalizing rape in the presence of men who have that attitude is a good reason to be careful. In my experience men don't really talk about rape - even without the r word - and maybe there's an element of fear in the conversation, that someone in the room might have taken home a girl too drink to say no, or some other scenario, and we don't want to risk having that sense of uncertainty with a friend.

PD exclusive

The snl skit is a double subversion. Were all pop culture literate enough to know two black guys one white in prison is the start of a rape scene. To subvert it is the first joke, to resubvert at the end is the second.
Is it funny? Maybe it is (haven't seen), but just being funny doesn't mean its appropriate or the right thing to out on tv.

I remember that SNL skit and I remember thinking at the time, Wow.  Ballsy.  And not cool.  But then, I'm sensitive to that shit ever since my dad went away.

I think WE, HERE at PD can reason away why jokes about taboo subjects can be "ok" or "not ok"...but I question the level of meta-thinking your average Joe will indulge in over the matter.  I think most humor is learned, just like I think most bigotry against folks is learned, and I think most folks KNOW that rape is wrong without needing to know anyone who went through it.

Male on male rape is one of those ills of Western civ you just don't hear about to the degree it lives with you the way male on female does, just like incest is known, but the degree to which is happens would probably shock most folks who believe it's a rare entity.  It's not.  "Prison rape" gets the treatment it does because folks tend to not see an inmate as a victim.  They "deserve what they get" because they are incarcerated.  Every evil that visits them is what they get in return for their misdeeds, regardless of circumstance.

So to humanize the inmate would mean that we treat that person as we would ourselves--wanting the best possible for them.  Society demonizes inmates and treats them like they don't deserve anything but badwrong anything, badwrong medical practices, badwrong food, badwrong conditions.  Why not add rape into the mix and then laugh HA HA buttrape is funny HA HA?

I think throughout history, you'll see that dehumanizing the victim in a heinous act will actually allow those of us who would otherwise change that act or make it less acceptable to hold off and hold back.  That's not to say we sanction it, but neither do we actively participate in its demise, either.

I know I'm saying something a little bold, here, but I can't remember how many times I've heard "I hope you meet 'Bubba' in jail and get what you deserve"...what does that say?  That we HOPE that people get their asses torn up.  As punishment.  I'm sure it's said in jest, I'm sure those saying it don't actually literally hope that, but it would certainly be a different proposition altogether if someone said to a woman, "I hope you're met by a gang of rapists in the dark of night and ridden till the cows come home."

And then I want to address the "most men are rapists and in fact hold back" statement because I've heard it too.  I think Muslim men are actually taught this, and that's a large part of the justification for hiding their wives and girl children.  That men are really beasts inside that can't hold themselves back, and to present a woman in any form except covered so that you really can't tell if she's a man or woman undearneath everything, is to wave her vagina in his face as if it's for the taking.  Right here, right now.

It's a shocking idea, to me, because I wasn't raised to think of men or boys as that impulsive.  I was raised to think people might have self-control issues, and there were those sick assholes who wanted to hurt people because of opportunity, let alone motive.  But I was not raised to think men patrolled the streets thinking of who they could sexually take advantage of just because they were in the general vicinity.

But from what I've heard Afghans say, this is very much their upbringing.  And this is why women are to be not even seen let alone heard if the men in the room are not their relatives.

Now, of course, this covers up all sorts of ugly underbelly no one in Afghan society wants to deal with.  Like the ritual rape and sexual slavery of boys, for example.  Who get to be around lascivious old farts that can ass rape them at will because they want to and have money to pay their families.

Or the complete subjugation of girls as soon as they're married.

Yeah, so anyway...I think it might also be a cultural ill here, too.

Good posts, both of you. Really good points.

I think that a huge part of our cultural problem here is that we live in a society where the prevailing moral code is that it's OK if you can get away with it. Everything is viewed as material goods... including sex. I think the commodification of sex as something that can be bought, sold, given, or taken, is part of the rape issue. Even our language, right down to the way I'm talking about it right now, perpetuates the perception of sex as an object and not as a process.

It's a difficult nut to crack.  In looking at the problem, one wants to blame and keep it away from oneself at the same time.  I don't have the answers except to raise my boys to not see subjugation of women as a good thing.  Or subjugation of themselves or anyone else for that matter.  That the innocent are to be protected and that the black and white cloak society places on things can sometimes just hide what's real underneath.

Truth and honesty about people, and acceptance they are people without having to accept their badness, it's a hard thing to teach.  Hard thing to live.  

Mostly because I'm really a judgemental bitch.

Here, this thread needs LOL http://gizmodo.com/5569537/condoms-with-teeth-fight-rape-in-south-africa

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 03:27:12 AM
Here, this thread needs LOL http://gizmodo.com/5569537/condoms-with-teeth-fight-rape-in-south-africa

If putting fishhooks in your vagina is a reasonable response to anything, something is deeply, deeply wrong with the place where you live.

Quote from: Golden Applesauce on December 02, 2011, 04:24:57 AM

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 03:27:12 AM
Here, this thread needs LOL http://gizmodo.com/5569537/condoms-with-teeth-fight-rape-in-south-africa

If putting fishhooks in your vagina is a reasonable response to anything, something is deeply, deeply wrong with the place where you live.

Considering that there's a need to hand these out like government cheese, yes, I think I'll be staying out of South Africa.

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 04:49:25 AM

Quote from: Golden Applesauce on December 02, 2011, 04:24:57 AM

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 02, 2011, 03:27:12 AM
Here, this thread needs LOL http://gizmodo.com/5569537/condoms-with-teeth-fight-rape-in-south-africa

If putting fishhooks in your vagina is a reasonable response to anything, something is deeply, deeply wrong with the place where you live.

Considering that there's a need to hand these out like government cheese, yes, I think I'll be staying out of South Africa.

I don't know how it is in SA, but in areas with ex-child soldiers, many of the men having grown up in these conditions treat sex with a sense of entitlement, regardless of consent, so what lawyers call 'real rape' (easy to prove rape; strange man forcing a woman into sex) may be more common. Not sure.

Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

They need to make vagina dentata with a spring. Like a rat trap.

Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 05:21:43 PM
Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

I hadn't heard about the machete thing . That's just.... :x 

But about the vagina dentata thing. As hilarious and needed as it may be, if I was a rapist with a penis and got it slashed on something in a woman's vagina, I'd imagine I would want to kill the shit out of the nearest living thing to me, that being the woman who caused this with her penis trap. I mean, seriously though, I would imagine the shock and pain would cause an instant surge of rage in many people. I'm not trying to say that rape isn't horrible, but would something like this end up causing more murders/brutal beatings instead of "just" rapes? Or are things so horrible over there (I know, the machetes), that it's worth the risk of the rapist maybe retaliating more violently?

Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 06, 2011, 05:11:30 PM

Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 05:21:43 PM
Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

I hadn't heard about the machete thing . That's just.... :x  

But about the vagina dentata thing. As hilarious and needed as it may be, if I was a rapist with a penis and got it slashed on something in a woman's vagina, I'd imagine I would want to kill the shit out of the nearest living thing to me, that being the woman who caused this with her penis trap. I mean, seriously though, I would imagine the shock and pain would cause an instant surge of rage in many people. I'm not trying to say that rape isn't horrible, but would something like this end up causing more murders/brutal beatings instead of "just" rapes? Or are things so horrible over there (I know, the machetes), that it's worth the risk of the rapist maybe retaliating more violently?

I can't find a link, but there was a case in the 90's where some guy broke into an elderly woman's house and tried to rape her. She pretended to be into it and got his dick in one hand and his balls in the other and twisted them in two different directions, she said she "wrung it out like a washrag". He smacked her in the head a time or two but she held on and walked him downstairs like that and made him call the police on himself.  :lulz:

Dick injuries seem to be different from regular injuries.  :p

Maintenance Geek is IN.

Thread is split, and merged with the Fang thread, which is now the T2 thread.

Awesome, thanks!

Excellent. It was degenerating into "NYAAAAAAAA NYA". Danke!  :)

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 06, 2011, 05:43:07 PM

Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 06, 2011, 05:11:30 PM

Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 05:21:43 PM
Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

I hadn't heard about the machete thing . That's just.... :x  

But about the vagina dentata thing. As hilarious and needed as it may be, if I was a rapist with a penis and got it slashed on something in a woman's vagina, I'd imagine I would want to kill the shit out of the nearest living thing to me, that being the woman who caused this with her penis trap. I mean, seriously though, I would imagine the shock and pain would cause an instant surge of rage in many people. I'm not trying to say that rape isn't horrible, but would something like this end up causing more murders/brutal beatings instead of "just" rapes? Or are things so horrible over there (I know, the machetes), that it's worth the risk of the rapist maybe retaliating more violently?

I can't find a link, but there was a case in the 90's where some guy broke into an elderly woman's house and tried to rape her. She pretended to be into it and got his dick in one hand and his balls in the other and twisted them in two different directions, she said she "wrung it out like a washrag". He smacked her in the head a time or two but she held on and walked him downstairs like that and made him call the police on himself.  :lulz:

:lulz:

Quote
Dick injuries seem to be different from regular injuries.  :p

heh, that's true. I figured a knife or hook in the penis would be a pretty debilitating injury. I just wasn't sure if it would be debilitating enough to stop a man from doing something more horrible to his victim. More harm than good sort of thing

I suspect this is more of a "you don't know if she has one" kind of thing.

Quote from: Luna on December 09, 2011, 05:51:42 PM
I suspect this is more of a "you don't know if she has one" kind of thing.

Oh, that's very true. I hadn't been thinking about it in the context of a deterrent, which makes sense. If it was widespread/well known enough that these things existed and were fairly common, it could certainly make someone think twice

Well, you figure when the guy is errrrr backing up...... this stays attached to his penis. 

Once out, you just need to grab it and pull and I am fairly certain he will follow wherever you lead. 

Might be slow progress, though. The washrag lady said the guy passed out a couple of times on the way to the phone.  :lulz:

Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on December 06, 2011, 05:11:30 PM

Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 05:21:43 PM
Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

I hadn't heard about the machete thing . That's just.... :x 

But about the vagina dentata thing. As hilarious and needed as it may be, if I was a rapist with a penis and got it slashed on something in a woman's vagina, I'd imagine I would want to kill the shit out of the nearest living thing to me, that being the woman who caused this with her penis trap. I mean, seriously though, I would imagine the shock and pain would cause an instant surge of rage in many people. I'm not trying to say that rape isn't horrible, but would something like this end up causing more murders/brutal beatings instead of "just" rapes? Or are things so horrible over there (I know, the machetes), that it's worth the risk of the rapist maybe retaliating more violently?

You have to figure, this guy now has a horribly painful device stuck to his penis, that requires a doctor's intervention to remove it. Is he going to make his legal situation worse, or is he going to get the hell out of there? I think that most guys would panic and bolt.

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 09, 2011, 07:04:07 PM
Might be slow progress, though. The washrag lady said the guy passed out a couple of times on the way to the phone.  :lulz:

I am okay with this.

Quote from: Luna on December 09, 2011, 07:18:58 PM

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on December 09, 2011, 07:04:07 PM
Might be slow progress, though. The washrag lady said the guy passed out a couple of times on the way to the phone.  :lulz:

I am okay with this.

:lulz: I wish you could have seen her, she was OLD...kind of reminded me of Moms Mabley. I cheered.  :D

While i can't see myself doing something so horrible as to deserve barbs in my junk i think that having barbs in my junk would render me as helpless as a kitten. A bloody, screaming kitten.

Quote from: Alty on December 09, 2011, 10:52:57 PM
While i can't see myself doing something so horrible as to deserve barbs in my junk i think that having barbs in my junk would render me as helpless as a kitten. A bloody, screaming kitten.

Man, I'm so sorry to hear about your kitten's penis.

:lulz:

Oh lord

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Quote from: Nigel on December 09, 2011, 07:14:19 PM
You have to figure, this guy now has a horribly painful device stuck to his penis, that requires a doctor's intervention to remove it. Is he going to make his legal situation worse, or is he going to get the hell out of there? I think that most guys would panic and bolt.

unless the guy is into that sort of thing...then the chick is fucked.  no pun intended.

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 12:48:57 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 09, 2011, 07:14:19 PM
You have to figure, this guy now has a horribly painful device stuck to his penis, that requires a doctor's intervention to remove it. Is he going to make his legal situation worse, or is he going to get the hell out of there? I think that most guys would panic and bolt.

unless the guy is into that sort of thing...then the chick is fucked.  no pun intended.

I'm buying one for home use.  :fap:

Quote from: Jenne on December 02, 2011, 05:21:43 PM
Anyone who HASN'T heard about the goings-on in South Africa...well, you just haven't been paying attention.  Women are raped by MACHETE.  MACHETE.  And survive.

So yeah, the vagina detata is a just form of retribution.

its not just south africa...the entire sub-continent of sub-saharan africa is the rape capital of the universe.

machete is nothing...ive done reports on the idiocy that goes on in that country that would make one of the freaks from 'hellraiser' piss his pants and curl up in a corner and cry.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:50:26 AM
I'm buying one for home use.  :fap:

one isnt going to be enough.  once you get addicted *ahem* to them youre going to need one for the office...the car...and spares for when they get worn out.

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:03:49 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:50:26 AM
I'm buying one for home use.  :fap:

one isnt going to be enough.  once you get addicted *ahem* to them youre going to need one for the office...the car...and spares for when they get worn out.

You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:03:49 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:50:26 AM
I'm buying one for home use.  :fap:

one isnt going to be enough.  once you get addicted *ahem* to them youre going to need one for the office...the car...and spares for when they get worn out.

You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

This, for some reason, made me look at your custom text and once again giggle at "platonic dildo sharpener".

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM
You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

only if you never try entering a courthouse or airport.  those TSA bastards have no sense of humor when it comes to sharp objects and full-contact crotch searches.

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:23:44 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM
You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

only if you never try entering a courthouse or airport.  those TSA bastards have no sense of humor when it comes to sharp objects and full-contact crotch searches.

That's their lookout.

Also, you have 7 more posts til 50!  :lord:

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:09:52 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:03:49 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:50:26 AM
I'm buying one for home use.  :fap:

one isnt going to be enough.  once you get addicted *ahem* to them youre going to need one for the office...the car...and spares for when they get worn out.

You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

This, for some reason, made me look at your custom text and once again giggle at "platonic dildo sharpener".

Payne gave me that Holy Name™ before he died.   :cry:

It's all I have left from him besides a can of haggis.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:24:42 AM

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:23:44 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM
You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

only if you never try entering a courthouse or airport.  those TSA bastards have no sense of humor when it comes to sharp objects and full-contact crotch searches.

That's their lookout.

Also, you have 7 more posts til 50!  :lord:

YAY! Almost there! I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:25:16 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:09:52 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:03:49 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:50:26 AM
I'm buying one for home use.  :fap:

one isnt going to be enough.  once you get addicted *ahem* to them youre going to need one for the office...the car...and spares for when they get worn out.

You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

This, for some reason, made me look at your custom text and once again giggle at "platonic dildo sharpener".

Payne gave me that Holy Name™ before he died.   :cry:

I miss Payne.  :cry:

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:24:42 AM
That's their lookout.

Also, you have 7 more posts til 50!

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:25:21 AM
YAY! Almost there! I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!

whats spectacular about 50 posts?

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:41:57 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:24:42 AM
That's their lookout.

Also, you have 7 more posts til 50!

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:25:21 AM
YAY! Almost there! I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!

whats spectacular about 50 posts?

Post one more time, and you'll see.  You'll also be the first totsetard with the balls to do it.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 02:04:51 AM

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:41:57 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:24:42 AM
That's their lookout.

Also, you have 7 more posts til 50!

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:25:21 AM
YAY! Almost there! I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!

whats spectacular about 50 posts?

Post one more time, and you'll see.  You'll also be the first totsetard with the balls to do it.

just one?

what do i win?  gold watch?  free all-expenses-paid cruise for the low price of $699 with my credit card number?

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 02:13:26 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 02:04:51 AM

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:41:57 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:24:42 AM
That's their lookout.

Also, you have 7 more posts til 50!

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:25:21 AM
YAY! Almost there! I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!

whats spectacular about 50 posts?

Post one more time, and you'll see.  You'll also be the first totsetard with the balls to do it.

just one?

what do i win?  gold watch?  free all-expenses-paid cruise for the low price of $699 with my credit card number?

Nope.

Look around for a few minutes.

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:25:42 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:25:16 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:09:52 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:03:49 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:50:26 AM
I'm buying one for home use.  :fap:

one isnt going to be enough.  once you get addicted *ahem* to them youre going to need one for the office...the car...and spares for when they get worn out.

You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

This, for some reason, made me look at your custom text and once again giggle at "platonic dildo sharpener".

Payne gave me that Holy Name™ before he died.   :cry:

I miss Payne.  :cry:

my beloved has moved to a new house where there is no Internet access till January. THE MESSIAH SHALL RISE AGAIN!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16192494

QuoteNearly 20% of women in the US are raped or suffer attempted rape at some point in their lives, a US study says.

Even more women, estimated at 25%, have been attacked by a partner or husband, the Centers for Disease Control said.

The findings form part of the first set of results from a nationwide study surveying sexual violence by intimate partners against men and women.

More than 24 people a minute reported rape, violence, or stalking, it says, with 12 million offences reported.

Experts at the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) described the results of the first year of the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey as "astounding".

Among the key figures included in the survey's findings were:

    * more than one million women reported being raped in the 12 months prior to the survey
    * more than six million women and men were a victim of stalking
    * more than 12 million women and men reported rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner over the course of a year.

Lifelong hurt

"People who experience sexual violence, stalking or intimate partner violence often deal with the effects for their entire life," said Dr Linda Degutis, director of CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

Many of those attacked experience rape or sexual assault in their early years, with almost 80% of rape victims suffering their ordeal before the age of 25.

Some 35% of women raped before they were aged 18 were also raped as adults, Dr Degutis added.

Quote from: Pixie on December 15, 2011, 01:10:25 PM

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:25:42 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:25:16 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 01:09:52 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM

Quote from: infinityshock on December 15, 2011, 01:03:49 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:50:26 AM
I'm buying one for home use.  :fap:

one isnt going to be enough.  once you get addicted *ahem* to them youre going to need one for the office...the car...and spares for when they get worn out.

You're ignoring the possibility that I might never take it off.  I could be having Sexhurt™ right in the morning meeting, and nobody would know.

This, for some reason, made me look at your custom text and once again giggle at "platonic dildo sharpener".

Payne gave me that Holy Name™ before he died.   :cry:

I miss Payne.  :cry:

my beloved has moved to a new house where there is no Internet access till January. THE MESSIAH SHALL RISE AGAIN!

WE NEED OUR MESSIAH.

Quote from: Cain on December 15, 2011, 01:31:15 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16192494

QuoteNearly 20% of women in the US are raped or suffer attempted rape at some point in their lives, a US study says.

Even more women, estimated at 25%, have been attacked by a partner or husband, the Centers for Disease Control said.

The findings form part of the first set of results from a nationwide study surveying sexual violence by intimate partners against men and women.

More than 24 people a minute reported rape, violence, or stalking, it says, with 12 million offences reported.

Experts at the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) described the results of the first year of the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey as "astounding".

Among the key figures included in the survey's findings were:

    * more than one million women reported being raped in the 12 months prior to the survey
    * more than six million women and men were a victim of stalking
    * more than 12 million women and men reported rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner over the course of a year.

Lifelong hurt

"People who experience sexual violence, stalking or intimate partner violence often deal with the effects for their entire life," said Dr Linda Degutis, director of CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

Many of those attacked experience rape or sexual assault in their early years, with almost 80% of rape victims suffering their ordeal before the age of 25.

Some 35% of women raped before they were aged 18 were also raped as adults, Dr Degutis added.

This is some grim shit.

Does it brighten things up a bit if I tell you that upon reading this line:

Quote from: Cain on December 15, 2011, 01:31:15 PM
More than 24 people a minute reported rape, violence, or stalking, it says, with 12 million offences reported.

... I was imagining the seagull scene from Finding Nemo except they were shouting RAPE! RAPE! instead of MINE! MINE!

?

I agree that rape victims are often seen as the ones who may have provoked rape in the first place. It's not fair all the pain the victim must endure because of it.

Thanks Nigel for starting this, and everyone who contributed thus far.
It's not easy writing a reply since it stirs up some very well hidden memories. I may have let go of it, and it won't sweep me off my feet anymore, but i will carry that emotional damage with me until i die, just like anyone else who has been raped. That's something i had to accept. Just like i had to accept what happened twenty years back and what far-reaching influence it has had, and in some way still has, on my behaviour. And it seems like the only people who can truly understand it, are the ones that have experienced similar shit.

What always puzzled me is that once the taboo gets broken and people manage to openly talk about rape, it's always about men raping women. But men get raped too and not just in prison. People like to pretend that this doesn't happen. I don't get it. And that whole focus on the stranger in the dark corner. As stated in this thread before, in most cases the rapist comes from the friends and family circles. Sex itself is portrayed in such twisted ways in our modern society, the fuck!?!

I used laughter extensively, still do to this day. Mostly to stay detached when talking about what happened to me (or when talking about the topic in general, to keep the dark inside at bay) -- or i laugh in conjunction with other techniques to keep myself in the present during those rare moments when it boils up on the inside due to some trigger.

I don't joke about it though. And most people who hear that special type of laughter can sense the chill within.
'Cause rape is not fucking funny.

~Planeswalker
strangely personal, yet happy to be able to type about it

You're right, men get raped too... I have a very dear friend who was raped when he was a teenager. It's not just a women's issue, and I think the dialogue will get a lot further when more men feel safe being included in it.

I wonder why I started perusing PD -

Then I read this thread.

Thank you -


I would like to craft something more out of the words & ideas in my head, but at the moment, I can only think of ....

 :)

While I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, Planeswalker, I would disagree with one facet of it:

Male on male rape is frequently discussed as part of the punishment of a jail stint, at least in the USA.  There are lots of jokes about it, "don't drop the soap while in the shower" and so on, but it's not only acknowledged that rape is frequent within jails, but is sometimes mentioned in an approving manner (because those suffering it are criminals, and so "deserve" it).

It wouldn't be entirely unfair to characterize certain prisons, especially the ones with a higher percentage of lifers, as places of systematic rape.  And part of the problem is the guards are frequently complicit in this, usually through turning a blind eye, but sometimes helping to facilitate it or take part also. 

There's an element of "blaming the victim" I sort of struggle with. I know it's not my fault but I'm soft, naive and put myself in a lot of stupid, vulnerable positions. I have little capacity to get angry unless that anger is directed at myself because as a child of abuse, I dissociate when I'm beng hurt and turn it against myelf later.

I'm a piss-poor bullshit detector and I feel guilty when others do bad things...allllll they have to do is blame me or imply that I had a hand in it. And they do.

I have a neon sign on me that screams "THIS ONE'S RIPE."

I have a responsibility to remove that sign...but I don't know how yet. I cope with pain by laughing at it...which is normalizing and feels good so my existence is rarely painful enough to end or get angry. I just laugh and try to emit a brighter, more positive light than what's been shined on me. My pain becomes a source of empathy.

I may be the only human being either too awesome or too stupid to be jaded.

#YearOfNo

But it's MOSTLY a woman's issue because it's a power thing, not a personal/sexual fulfillment thing. Men rape to show who's ultimately in CONTROL.

I struggled a lot with the shame end of it...and currently with how some of the things men do to me in more recent times equates to almost exactly the same sort of shame. There's an almost exact echo sometimes of that amalgamation of "I've been robbed, I've been had, I've been exposed/feel naked, I'm so stupid/ugly/worthless" sick feeling when someone proves they can and will TAKE whatever they want from you one way or another.

Quote from: navkat on January 16, 2012, 02:03:36 PM
I struggled a lot with the shame end of it...and currently with how some of the things men do to me in more recent times equates to almost exactly the same sort of shame. There's an almost exact echo sometimes of that amalgamation of "I've been robbed, I've been had, I've been exposed/feel naked, I'm so stupid/ugly/worthless" sick feeling when someone proves they can and will TAKE whatever they want from you one way or another.

I've been there.

It's been really great and self-affirming to go in pretty much the other direction... not only able to draw boundaries and say no, but not having any qualms kind of being a dick about it if I have to say no more than once. Including basic safety issues, like accepting a ride from someone I don't know well or being alone in a room or letting someone walk me home. If I say "no thank you" and someone responds with "I insist!", my new default is FUCK YOU. The main thing to learn is to not be afraid of seeming rude or seeming like you don't like someone.

That's the real horror, isn't it? Compliance.

There's an article about male rape in the NYT today:

www.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/health/as-victims-men-struggle-for-rape-awareness.html?_r=1&hpw

Quote
Eugene Porter, a therapist in Oakland, Calif., and the author of the book "Treating the Young Male Victim of Sexual Assault," said that while some assailants seek power and dominance, others "find that aggression enhances their sexual experience."

"There is no arena in which rape takes place between men and women that it does not take place between men and men," he said.

Like women, men who are raped feel violated and ashamed and may become severely depressed or suicidal. They are at increased risk for substance abuse, problems with interpersonal relationships, physical impairments, chronic pain, insomnia and other health problems.

But men also face a challenge to their sense of masculinity. Many feel they should have done more to fight off their attackers. Since they may believe that men are never raped, they may feel isolated and reluctant to confide in anyone. Male rape victims may become confused about their sexual orientation or, if gay and raped by a man, blame their sexual orientation for the rape.

"If you're sexually assaulted, there's this idea that you're no longer a man," said Neil Irvin, executive director of the organization Men Can Stop Rape. "The violence is ignored, and your sexual orientation and gender are confronted."

Many rape crisis centers — which often also provide services for victims of domestic violence — do not have the resources to counsel male victims. Remarkably few male victims seek professional help for injuries, screening for sexually transmitted diseases or counseling after an attack, often waiting years or decades.

Also of interest is a link to this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/07/us/politics/federal-crime-statistics-to-expand-rape-definition.html) about expanding the legal definition of rape, which apparently hasn't changed since the 1930's.

I'm really glad that's being more openly discussed these days... I feel like so much attention is given to relatively meaningless "education" such as "yes means yes" (the idea that you can somehow prevent rape if you make sure the other person is sober and explicitly says yes before you have sex... which, basically, means that people who weren't going to commit rape in the first place will also go through this awkward and offputting conversation prior to having sex) rather than investigating the key question, which is what are the cultural conditions which create rape, and how can we change them? I suspect that the power dynamic of the ownership/entitlement culture is a factor. I would be interested in seeing if there are statistic that might correlate with my suspicion... maybe I'll see if I can look those up tomorrow.

Quote from: Nigel on January 25, 2012, 02:52:46 AM
I'm really glad that's being more openly discussed these days... I feel like so much attention is given to relatively meaningless "education" such as "yes means yes" (the idea that you can somehow prevent rape if you make sure the other person is sober and explicitly says yes before you have sex... which, basically, means that people who weren't going to commit rape in the first place will also go through this awkward and offputting conversation prior to having sex) rather than investigating the key question, which is what are the cultural conditions which create rape, and how can we change them? I suspect that the power dynamic of the ownership/entitlement culture is a factor. I would be interested in seeing if there are statistic that might correlate with my suspicion... maybe I'll see if I can look those up tomorrow.

A lot of the educational campaigns I see seem aimed at "clearing up any confusion". To my mind, the notion that there is any confusion is just fucked up and wrong. The only appropriate reaction to rape is moral outrage...complete fucking intolerance. There are no excuses, there are no mitigating circumstances, there is no confusion.

"No means no" is fine for educational purposes if the message it's conveying is that it's well within your rights to shoot to kill once you've said no, but to convey the message that rape is sometimes a misunderstanding over consent is just foul--like it's an accident or something. "Only you can prevent forest fires" is not a litany against arson.

Quote from: Nigel on January 25, 2012, 02:52:46 AM
I'm really glad that's being more openly discussed these days... I feel like so much attention is given to relatively meaningless "education" such as "yes means yes" (the idea that you can somehow prevent rape if you make sure the other person is sober and explicitly says yes before you have sex... which, basically, means that people who weren't going to commit rape in the first place will also go through this awkward and offputting conversation prior to having sex)...

Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on January 30, 2012, 07:17:44 PM
A lot of the educational campaigns I see seem aimed at "clearing up any confusion". To my mind, the notion that there is any confusion is just fucked up and wrong. The only appropriate reaction to rape is moral outrage...complete fucking intolerance. There are no excuses, there are no mitigating circumstances, there is no confusion.

"No means no" is fine for educational purposes if the message it's conveying is that it's well within your rights to shoot to kill once you've said no, but to convey the message that rape is sometimes a misunderstanding over consent is just foul--like it's an accident or something. "Only you can prevent forest fires" is not a litany against arson.

I wonder if the "clearing up confusion" style campaigns don't create more confusion than they resolve.  My old college (Catholic, very high drinking / party rates) had a campaign called "Can I Kiss You?", the content of which is exactly that kind of awkwardness you'd expect from the title.  One of the follow up pieces was a talk targeted at date rape - I don't remember the specifics, but what the students walked away with was "if the girl's had a beer, then it's rape."  (Naturally, nothing on what happens if the guy's been drinking, or if both participants are the same sex.)

Given that we had anti-drinking posters along the lines of "2/3rds of students don't start drinking on Thursday," that definition would classify pretty much every sex act performed on campus as date rape.  It became sort of a running joke - for months after, my roommates' girlfriend would say "I'm trying to rape youuuu" in a cutesy voice every time she handed him a beer.  I think the goal might have been to scare students out of having sex at all (you might accidentally commit a rape, and then end up on the sexual predator list forever!) but the end result was that nobody could take date rape seriously afterwards.  Which is a shame, because we really did have a date rape problem.

That sort of "awareness" makes it really easy to sell the lie that rape other than the "violent assault" style is just a modern feminist invention.

And even now, every time I see rape statistics, I wonder if they included "sex after a beer" just to make the numbers look more impressive.

GA,
doesn't drink or talk to girls

The most terrifying thing I ever heard on the subject of rape was a friend of mine in college who said flat out she would absolutely lie about someone raping her if she thought they deserved it. She was pre-law.

Quote from: Queen_Gogira on January 31, 2012, 07:04:24 PM
The most terrifying thing I ever heard on the subject of rape was a friend of mine in college who said flat out she would absolutely lie about someone raping her if she thought they deserved it. She was pre-law.

Get better friends.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2012, 07:14:04 PM

Quote from: Queen_Gogira on January 31, 2012, 07:04:24 PM
The most terrifying thing I ever heard on the subject of rape was a friend of mine in college who said flat out she would absolutely lie about someone raping her if she thought they deserved it. She was pre-law.

Get better friends.

Yeah we don't hang out no more.

Quote from: Triple Zero on November 30, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
not sure if there's a more recent thread on this subject, but I just came across this very interesting article:

http://fuckyeahfemalemarines.tumblr.com/post/12766127286/to-all-those-men-who-dont-think-the-rape-jokes-are-a

It's about why rape jokes are always bad and while feminists don't actually believe that "all men are rapists", all rapists actually DO believe this.

I'm doing a stand-up set at a local comedy club where rape jokes are pretty commonly thrown around and almost as regularly accepted. The comedian occasionally loses the audience for being too "ick" about it, so I'm trying to work out a way to mention some of the stuff from the quoted post. I would ideally like to do this without just bitching at the crowd about it.

Anyone got any brilliant ideas for delivery of this material? The format I'm working on at the moment is telling a terrible rape joke and (hopefully) when the audience laughs, ripping into them for being monsters and hoping it's funny rather than ranty and annoying.

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 06:15:23 PM
I think that in particular, the male aversion to the subject of rape is rooted in fear. Fear of being like a rapist, fear of their own sexuality as a male, fear of becoming involuntarily aroused by the thought of rape (many perfectly normal men do), fear of what that means, fear of having something in common with the rapist. So they run away and avoid the subject.

This, and that episode of Portlandia "cacao"  :horrormirth:

Quote from: Nigel on July 23, 2011, 07:37:22 PM

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 23, 2011, 06:27:43 PM
Men are monsters. Or, at least, a part of them is. Most if not all men I expect but I don't got the statistics to back that up. Thing is a lot of men (the majority I'd like to think) have control over this monster. Some don't or some lose it for whatever reason, alcohol, obsession, moment of weakness. When that monster gets loose that's when it happens. I wish I had a solution or something, cos it's bang out of order but I got nothing other than my sympathy for someone who is on the receiving end of shit that I can't really understand, can't really relate to on any level other than it sounds like a really shit thing to go through. Generally more emotionally damaging than physically, as far as I've heard. I can relate to emotional and mental damage. To have something like that inflicted on me by some fuckhead? Yeah I can see how that could really fuck me up worse than a car crash or some other kind of physical crap.

I dunno about the statistics for the how's and when's and why's but I expect the situations vary from the one-off, drunken grope turning into "what the fuck do you mean no?" to the serial stalker doing all the sneaky cat burglar shit you see in the movies and all points in between. I despise them for their weakness in letting the monster take control (it's not difficult to keep in check, most of us manage that just fine) or, in some cases, for becoming the monster. For letting it consume them. Fuck those bastards especially.

I disagree completely. I think that one of the damaging stereotypes surrounding rape is that all men are just barely in control of their base instincts, and that therefore by tempting them, women can turn a good man into a rapist. The truth is, most men are not rapists and could not under any normal circumstances be turned into rapists. Most rapes are premeditated and carefully planned, not spontaneous.

Just started reading this thread, and I gotta say I think Nigel is dead on. Rape apparently exists in most societies and I think says much more about someone having a serious psychological problem, rather than it being 'normal' in any way shape or form.

Quote from: Nigel on January 25, 2012, 02:52:46 AM
I'm really glad that's being more openly discussed these days... I feel like so much attention is given to relatively meaningless "education" such as "yes means yes" (the idea that you can somehow prevent rape if you make sure the other person is sober and explicitly says yes before you have sex... which, basically, means that people who weren't going to commit rape in the first place will also go through this awkward and offputting conversation prior to having sex) rather than investigating the key question, which is what are the cultural conditions which create rape, and how can we change them? I suspect that the power dynamic of the ownership/entitlement culture is a factor. I would be interested in seeing if there are statistic that might correlate with my suspicion... maybe I'll see if I can look those up tomorrow.

"I have NEEDS".
Not "wants". "NEEDS". Like they're stealing food for the kids or something, FFS.

As an aside... "yes means yes"?  When did that start happening?  My stint through an ultra-PC college campus was still based on "no means no" -- educating people that they needed to control their hormones to shut it down if consent was either not offered, or withdrawn at any point. 

At the time I was there, it seemed the goal of rape education was focused on giving boys who didn't know better a reality check, and girls the power of NO.  I know Antioch took it over the top with the whole "may I raise the level of intimacy" thing, but it just feels to me that "yes means yes" just isn't the right way to do it.

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 20, 2012, 05:43:33 PM
I know Antioch took it over the top with the whole "may I raise the level of intimacy" thing,

What?  :lol:

THAT'S ROMANCE RIGHT THERE, THAT IS!

Romance is important.
that's why i always use a flowery embossed letterhead for the affidavit that i have the young lady sign.

Quote from: Iptuous on March 20, 2012, 05:49:33 PM
Romance is important.
that's why i always use a flowery embossed letterhead for the affidavit that i have the young lady sign.

:lulz:

Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 20, 2012, 05:47:54 PM

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 20, 2012, 05:43:33 PM
I know Antioch took it over the top with the whole "may I raise the level of intimacy" thing,

What?  :lol:

THAT'S ROMANCE RIGHT THERE, THAT IS!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch_College#The_Sexual_Offense_Prevention_Policy

QuoteUnder this policy, consent for sexual behavior must be "(a) verbal, (b) mutual, and (c) reiterated for every new level of sexual behavior."

Ah, the early 90s.  A time when craziness was more equally distributed.

Quote from: Beardman Meow on March 20, 2012, 10:58:58 AM

Quote from: Triple Zero on November 30, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
not sure if there's a more recent thread on this subject, but I just came across this very interesting article:

http://fuckyeahfemalemarines.tumblr.com/post/12766127286/to-all-those-men-who-dont-think-the-rape-jokes-are-a

It's about why rape jokes are always bad and while feminists don't actually believe that "all men are rapists", all rapists actually DO believe this.

I'm doing a stand-up set at a local comedy club where rape jokes are pretty commonly thrown around and almost as regularly accepted. The comedian occasionally loses the audience for being too "ick" about it, so I'm trying to work out a way to mention some of the stuff from the quoted post. I would ideally like to do this without just bitching at the crowd about it.

Anyone got any brilliant ideas for delivery of this material? The format I'm working on at the moment is telling a terrible rape joke and (hopefully) when the audience laughs, ripping into them for being monsters and hoping it's funny rather than ranty and annoying.

How about this:

CK Louis - Rape (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU)

I saw this clip a few days ago and I figured I should post this in the Rape thread. Because it's really good. It's about rape, it's funny, and most importantly it doesn't trivialize rape--quite the opposite.

Quote from: Triple Zero on April 06, 2012, 10:29:47 PM

Quote from: Beardman Meow on March 20, 2012, 10:58:58 AM

Quote from: Triple Zero on November 30, 2011, 01:55:52 PM
not sure if there's a more recent thread on this subject, but I just came across this very interesting article:

http://fuckyeahfemalemarines.tumblr.com/post/12766127286/to-all-those-men-who-dont-think-the-rape-jokes-are-a

It's about why rape jokes are always bad and while feminists don't actually believe that "all men are rapists", all rapists actually DO believe this.

I'm doing a stand-up set at a local comedy club where rape jokes are pretty commonly thrown around and almost as regularly accepted. The comedian occasionally loses the audience for being too "ick" about it, so I'm trying to work out a way to mention some of the stuff from the quoted post. I would ideally like to do this without just bitching at the crowd about it.

Anyone got any brilliant ideas for delivery of this material? The format I'm working on at the moment is telling a terrible rape joke and (hopefully) when the audience laughs, ripping into them for being monsters and hoping it's funny rather than ranty and annoying.

How about this:

CK Louis - Rape (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU)

I saw this clip a few days ago and I figured I should post this in the Rape thread. Because it's really good. It's about rape, it's funny, and most importantly it doesn't trivialize rape--quite the opposite.

Agreed.  Just that now it's my sanity that I find confounding -  or - that being trivialized is the complexity of social norms? 

Either way, great clip, worth the short watch.

So, here's a thing.

There was an online magazine in the UK called "Unilad", that is, a "lad's magazine" aimed at male University students.  However, it seems this particular publication has something of a problem with rape.  As in, it can't stop making "jokes" about it.

From Wikipedia:

QuoteSexual Mathematics – this article said that 75% of women aged 18–25 were "sluts" and advised readers that if a woman did not display any interest in having sex (which they described as "spread[ing] for your head"), "think about this mathematical statistic: 85 per cent of rape cases go unreported. That seems to be fairly good odds."[1][3] The article concluded with a mock disclaimer: "Uni Lad does not condone rape without saying 'surprise'."[7]
    The Zebra Abortion – this article described how, following sex, the writer told his sexual partner to take the morning-after pill. After responding by saying she wanted to keep the pregnancy, the writer considers "performing an elbow drop on her vagina right there and then", but decides instead to "look around the room for a chair or table I can smash onto her stomach".[8]
    How To Pull a Fresher – Another article on the website gave advice on "How To Pull a Fresher", noting that fresher students were "especially vulnerable".[1]
    The Angry Shag – This story described a man, during sex, smashing a woman's face into a wall "to knock some sense into her".[9]

The website also contained a 'shop' section that sold t-shirts with a variety of slogans, including a t-shirt fashioned in the style of the World War II-era Keep Calm and Carry On propaganda posters reading "Keep Calm – It Won't Take Long", a reference to rape

So yeah.

However, I found this article (http://angryyoungalex.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/rise-and-fall-of-unilad-or-what-fuck.html) discussing the whole thing, which is actually pretty great, and I wanted to link to it.  The author also has several other pieces on feminism, rape jokes and similar which are really quite interesting.

QuoteWe've all engaged in banter-related activity. We've all shown affection to people by winding them up - by taking the piss out of their favourite team/band/Russian novelist, by humming songs you know they hate, by drawing attention to their negative qualities, by randomly showing them a picture of Slavoj Žižek wiggling his tongue erotically when they're trying to eat, things like that. And this kind of banter is a useful, upside-down social ritual. Hugs and handshakes can be insincere. Banter can't. Banter shows three things:

    You are aware of your friend/teammate/lover's faults and weaknesses.
    You know them well enough to annoy them, so can judge their soft limits.
    You know and care about them well enough to stop short of offending them, so can judge and respect their hard limits.

Combined, you get a practical demonstration that you are well aware of the things that make them insecure, and respect them nonetheless. This is particularly important among LADs, Real Men™ and other such heterosexuals, because, as we know, if you say "I know your flaws and I respect you in spite of them" to another man directly, you might as well slip a finger up his arse and whisper "I love you. Yes homo."

UniLad fanboys though, can't do this right. At least, not to women. I'm going to be generous and say they probably are pretty good at respectfully judging hard and soft limits among themselves. They're also very good at cowering before the spectre of homoerotic desire. But with women and feminists, they can only do two of the three things. Clearly, they've found some flaws in women and feminists. And they seem to have done quite well at pissing women and feminists off. But they show no respect whatsoever and are quite obviously utterly clueless at judging their boundaries. The purpose of banter is to be handled, so if someone can't handle the banter, it's stopped being banter. This is not banter. This is not playful. This is not safe and under controlled conditions. This is an outright attack, targeted specifically at perceived vulnerabilities, pretending to be a game.

Which, unless you want to skip to the end, brings me to the rape jokes. First off, I think we focus far too much on what UniLad LADs say about rape. They deserve substantial credit for their attitude to consensual sex because, as you'll see if you read any of their articles, when UniLad LADs have sex, they pretty much ALWAYS win. How amazing is that? When they're good at sex they are ACTUALLY ZEUS HIMSELF. When they get sucked off they debase the mouth-provider in hilarious ways. Their sex lives involve Batman-punching noises like POW!, BOSH!, and KA-DOGGY-STYLE! Even when the woman is so hairy he doesn't even get laid, the joke's on her because UniLad LAD has a wank. Suck that feminists.

The reason UniLad LADs need a meat-hook or Captain-Birdseye chainsaw or whatever to get it up, the reason they can't have sex with a vagina but only with an anus or gash, the reason they can't just enjoy the sensation of a woman's lips and tongue caressing their erect penis unless she's somehow degraded by it is because they're fucking terrified. Maybe even rightly so. Rejection hurts. Affection leaves you vulnerable. Erotic thoughts are fucking frustrating when you've no chance of acting them out on the horizon. 'Woman' is a serious word. 'Wench' is silly, consciously silly, so through humour, you can distance yourself from the thought of sex while pretending to be a pirate. Haha! Arrrr! Having sex with a woman involves mutual pleasure, tension and release, skin on skin and the warmth of another human body. Destroying a wench involves transforming into a 14-megaton cock-missile that shoots up her clunge-hole and explodes her into fragments of sneaking-out-the-next-morning banter-fuel. It's just easier to think sex this way if you're not having any. Plus if you feel too much fondness for a wench you might end up gay.

 :lulz: sometimes I forget that loads of guys really do perceive sex that way. Unsettling and hilarious all in one post there, bravo!

That was well-done... thanks for the link, Cain, I'm saving that blog.

I'd like to meet that blogger. Great find, Cain.

I think I may have already met him, since I am incredibly guilty of this:

Quoterandomly showing them a picture of Slavoj Žižek wiggling his tongue erotically when they're trying to eat

Quote from: Cain on April 23, 2012, 10:12:42 AM
I think I may have already met him, since I am incredibly guilty of this:

Quoterandomly showing them a picture of Slavoj Žižek wiggling his tongue erotically when they're trying to eat

:lulz: