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11
Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by TheAudience on Yesterday at 12:15:16 am »


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


Well, that was an asshole thing to say.

Yeah. It was. It's the first time I have said anything that assholish in a long, long time.

I guess this means I've transitioned from doormat / tube, to asshole.
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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by rong on June 22, 2021, 11:48:11 pm »


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


Well, that was an asshole thing to say.

I often feel like the Doktor Howl autopilot is responding...
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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by Doktor Howl on June 22, 2021, 11:38:08 pm »


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


Well, that was an asshole thing to say.
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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by rong on June 22, 2021, 10:41:07 pm »

I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


oh, snap!
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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by TheAudience on June 22, 2021, 10:18:34 pm »

And sometimes you talk to someone, and you can recognize that they're not really there. You're talking to their autopilot.


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...

My problem is most definitely not with the whole concept of "being present in the moment". Judging from some of the stories that you've told, I can see how that concept helped you break out of a rut, expand your horizons, make you feel more alive, etc... But you're talking to me, the dude who up and walked out in the middle of a cabal meeting to literally go watch bats eat fireflies in my back yard as the sun went down. If I'm not present, it's cause I got more interesting shit going through my head. Otherwise, I'm savoring the nutmeg, coriander and cloves in my currant oatmeal, I've had it dozens of times now, tastes just as great every time.
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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by Cramulus on June 22, 2021, 08:15:18 pm »
Assigning something mysterious or supernatural to this concept seems misguided to me. The concept of going into a flow state, or defaulting to a habit is not alien to me, but I don't see it as a thing to be fought against nor do I see attention as some sort of hard to reach state that is to be sought after for its own good. I don't summon up all my attention to make or eat breakfast in the morning before work. It's unnecessary to do so, spends lots of extra energy to remain in that state, and I'll probably fuck up my eggs because I'm trying to do it consciously rather than leaving it up to my well trained reflexive habits.

your mileage may vary

CNO is totally correct when he said, above, that it's not desirable to completely kill your autopilot. We need habits, we couldn't walk across a room without them. That's not what this is line of thinking is about.

It took me a long time to recognize the importance of these "unimportant" moments.


chatting with other humans


enjoying my breakfast


working up a sweat


desire, frustration, satisfaction


This is the material which makes up our lives! I used to think it was boring, I mean, I drink the same cup of coffee every day, right?

But if I'm home, if I'm present, there's a quality to these experiences... there's an exchange between me and the universe, and it makes me feel more alive.

And sometimes you talk to someone, and you can recognize that they're not really there. You're talking to their autopilot.

But life is not about going through the motions until you get to go on vacation and have a real experience there.


If I experience things with my habitual mind, they just pass. No mark is left.
Sometimes it seems like years pass without the needle ever making contact with the record.


what a waste, right?





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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by Cramulus on June 22, 2021, 07:55:58 pm »

There was a moment where you decided to move dirt, to change streams.
This is an important moment!
What was seeing, right then?
What is it, inside of us, that sees things from a higher perspective? and can sense these wild impulses that occupy us for years at a time?


The cognitive bit. Man 3 if you like. I have no organ for this fourth brain. I do have organs for the other three.

If your intellect can notice these things all by itself, and control the other systems, consider yourself lucky! I hope it sees clearly.


In me, most of the time, the intellect acts more like a commentary track. It compares things to other things. It figures out which heuristic to apply. But without direction (from somewhere else...), it cruises on dumb autopilot.

It "explains" and "rationalizes" what I'm doing.

Sometimes it leads.

Usually, I find it's acting as a slave to my emotions (I build a rational scaffold after the fact to 'explain' or 'justify' what I'm doing/feeling), but the intellect has trouble recognizing that all by itself. The intellect is a hammer that sees everything as a nail. The head doesn't know how small it is.


I believe that there is a way to develop a locus of action, an organizing principle for attention, which is NOT emotional and NOT intellectual and NOT merely driven by physical pleasure/displeasure. When every part of us is involved, we're more alive.

The question which arises: in our everyday state, what's missing?

Cram, I believe you are about to become a father. If I remembered right about that, congratulations! and: I predict your perspective on mindfulness is about to undergo a major shift as you will be focusing your attention on providing for and protecting your toddler from themselves.  there will be times when you are completely aware of *their* world and unaware of your own.

oh no doubt, I'm chomping at the chrysalis walls

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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by chaotic neutral observer on June 22, 2021, 07:35:06 pm »
There is no magic here.
Quoted for Truth.
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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by chaotic neutral observer on June 22, 2021, 07:34:23 pm »
What is it, inside of us, that sees things from a higher perspective?
The human mind has the capacity for internal feedback, which allows it to observe its own function, to some extent.  This is where self-reflection comes from, and possibly the idea of free will.  I call it "The one that watches" as compared to "The one that is".  However, it's not a distinct entity, any more than hanging a mirror from the brim of my hat makes me two people.

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Sometimes I do things and there's no intention behind them.  Most of the time, we cruise on autopilot. I start to eat a meal and then suddenly I'm done. I don't even remember the intermediary bites. I get into a car and then I pull up to my destination. In between, there's a fog. Why can't I remember it? Where was I during that process?
You don't remember it because nothing interesting or novel happened.  It would be a waste of brain resources to store all those meaningless details.

Running on auto-pilot is, much of the time, a good thing.  Directly considering every movement of the fork, every chewing motion, every particle of food would be exhausting....and unnecessary.  You don't need to be continually conscious of how much pressure you're applying to the gas pedal, and how that relates to your speed; you've practiced that, you've mastered it, and the "more awake" part of your brain can occupy itself with checking traffic signals and watching out for monks crossing the road.

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Until now, it only seems to appear according to the law of accident.
What we want -- is to achieve this state intentionally, voluntarily, consciously.
Well...no, it doesn't happen accidentally.  I can trigger the "awake" state manually, but it requires concentration and effort, and isn't particularly useful... on its own.

But it happens all the time when I'm learning something new, or acquiring a new skill.  I can't run on autopilot, then; my brain has to start watching itself, in order to figure out what it's doing right, and what it's doing wrong.  As I master something, the necessity for this self-observation diminishes, until whatever I was doing is just another autopilot routine.

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A lot of people have a very limited access to that capacity; we talk about it as something that has to be developed over time. It's not a birthright -- it's something you have to make efforts to achieve.
I think that's exactly backward; people are born with this capacity (to a certain degree), and it diminishes with time.

Yeah, all people--myself included--spend much of the time on autopilot.  But most of us are still capable of flipping into some version of an "awake" state when we're learning something.  A child, who is still learning things, is going to spend less time on autopilot than an adult, simply because they have so much stuff to learn.
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Or Kill Me / Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Last post by TheAudience on June 22, 2021, 07:27:54 pm »

it feels like you are talking about the sense that seems to hit hardest when you're on a long trip and you suddenly realize that you are driving.  i think it's just a matter of attention.  you can either focus your attention on the real and tangible, or you can focus on your thoughts or imagination.  i think it is only deliberately that a meditative state of "no mind" can be achieved and there's some sort of irony in maintaining that state.  (how do you maintain a state of "no mind" without thinking about it?) 

then again, maybe not all minds work the same way. 

Cram, I believe you are about to become a father. If I remembered right about that, congratulations! and: I predict your perspective on mindfulness is about to undergo a major shift as you will be focusing your attention on providing for and protecting your toddler from themselves.  there will be times when you are completely aware of *their* world and unaware of your own.

I think that is what I'm getting at to be frank. Assigning something mysterious or supernatural to this concept seems misguided to me. The concept of going into a flow state, or defaulting to a habit is not alien to me, but I don't see it as a thing to be fought against nor do I see attention as some sort of hard to reach state that is to be sought after for its own good. I don't summon up all my attention to make or eat breakfast in the morning before work. It's unnecessary to do so, spends lots of extra energy to remain in that state, and I'll probably fuck up my eggs because I'm trying to do it consciously rather than leaving it up to my well trained reflexive habits.

Now, if a habit kept producing an outcome that was displeasing then I'm going to direct my attention to the chain of events in that habit till I understand, what are the circumstances (do I keep stubbing my toe on this piece of furniture, the placement of this furniture is part of the circumstances), and the internal reasoning (do I keep skipping out on exercise during a planned time, what other motivations are on my mind at the time? Have I given up enough other activities to really make time or am I cramming too many activities or desires into my schedule such that I've got conflicting motivations that exercise just keeps losing at every time. These are internal reasoning) that make up the habit. Then I try to come up with options, can I move something in the space to optimize that habit, can I remove conflicting motivations, can I remove distractions or temptation, can I build up barriers between me and the habit I want to break? Can I craft a new habit to replace the habit I'm trying to end.

And yes, all of this is work. I wrote up a several page document a week ago looking at all the communities I see myself as part of, analyzing how I interact and what, if anything I get from those communities and what I want to get from them. It took several hours and after I was done I had a solid list of communities I wanted to cut out of my habits. And change them I have. Now I'm watching for the tradeoffs and trying to build different habits in the new space.
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