If you make less than $250,000 per year: vote Democrat.
If you make more than $250,000 per year: You can vote Republican if you do not support social programs or you can vote Democrat if you do.
I like oversimplifications sometimes, because they can cut through bullshit nuance.
I suspect many people will have reasons to disagree, what are they, please?
Are you suggesting this is what people actually do, or this is what people should do?
What they should do, generally speaking.
OK.
I disagree, because the Dems are every bit the idiotic, power-grabbing, oligarchical, authoritarian and murderous pricks the GOP are. That they try to buy votes through minimal concessions to common sense just indicates they are smarter than the GOP, which is not a difficult feat, all things considered.
I agree with all that, Cain!
I still think the basic economic premises of the two parties dictates my scenario, less of 2 evils style.
my job depends on wasteful defense spending, so I'm probably gonna vote Republican.
also, the Democratic party makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little. At least the GOP is funny.
The basic economic premises of both of the parties are to enrich their most powerful supporters at the expense of their opposition's backers. Unless you personally are an insurance company or a bank, then the Democrats' very minor differences in other areas of their economic policy may make your life 0.000000001% better....but at least 95% of everything they do will be actively designed to fuck you over or even get you killed. It's like arguing Hitler is better than Stalin, essentially. Either way, you're still living in a situation whereby any objective standard says you are well and truly fucked.
I can respect that, First City Hustle!
I can't relate entirely w/ your analysis, Cain, but thanks for the feedback! I suspect your opinion is a popular one.
I still feel comfortable asserting my scenario.
More objections are encouraged!
whether or not you can relate, Cain's analysis (not an opinion) is absolutely true.
Quote from: First City Hustle on October 17, 2010, 03:28:28 AM
whether or not you can relate, Cain's analysis (not an opinion) is absolutely true.
It could very well be, it also pretty much supports my scenario.
Unless I misunderstand, he states that people outside of a certain economic situation will have 5% of their lives improved upon by 0.000000001% w/ a Democrat run government.
Those percentages seem perhaps a bit pessimistic to me. As does the Hitler/Stalin Comparison. And by no objective standard will I get well or truly fucked!
I understand most people do not have much optimism left, I don't blame them, but nor do I have any reason to join them.
I still think despite the well calculated emotional appeals to the contrary, poor - middle class people should generally vote for democrats.
what do you think the Democratic party does/will do that will help the poor or middle class any more than the GOP?
and do you not count the tactic of levying higher taxes on the wealthy which will never go to help the aforementioned poor and middle classes as a well-calculated emotional appeal for votes?
I suppose the proposition of levying higher taxes on the rich to help fund social programs may count as an emotional appeal, and that they may not work exactly as advertised, but they still exist, they still function, they still help a little.
I'll even go w/ the metaphor of the one puppet master holding a donkey puppet & an elephant puppet. But at least the donkey puppet has to pretend to help! and in that pretending, the facade does more than nothing.
The consumer protections seem to help a little. The health care bill seems to help a little. The infrastructure upgrade could help a little.
Okay so the Dem's kind of Robin Hood style emotional appeal may have a degree of bait and switch, but it pales in comparison to the Republican's.
The Republican's have based themselves almost entirely on getting people to vote against their own best economic interests based on christian dogma, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc.
A guy might vote against extending his own unemployment benefits, and getting health care treatment for his preexisting conditions, because the president has a muslim sounding middle name.
what makes you think that taxes on the rich go to fund social programs? For that matter, what makes you think the rich ever actually end up paying any of those increased taxes?
hint: they don't, it's just an emotional appeal to get your vote.
and you're focusing on the trappings of each party rather than what REALLY goes on. The truth is, they're both bought and paid for by the same interests. Your vote for a democrat candidate does absolutely nothing that your vote for a GOP candidate wouldn't do. In the end, Bechtel/KBR/GenDyne/Lockheed-Martin/BofA/Goldman-Sachs/etc. still own your ass. Not saying you should vote one way or another or that you shouldn't cote however you want to, but you should do it without being under an illusions that it makes a tangible difference. The only elections that matter to your daily life in a tangible manner are your municipal and maybe some state elections.
You know what?
Two years ago, I voted Democrat because I swallowed Obama's bullshit. I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. I don't blame myself for being stupid (I mean, the facts added up well enough: Obama started dirt poor and had to work his ass off to get where he was, and there's really no logical reason to sell out at that point), but I do blame myself for being optimistic.
Obama and the Democrats have controlled Washington for 2 years now as a unit. They could have enacted serious reform: they could have scrapped Medicare and Medicaid and created a single-payer system and fucked the corrupt insurance companies right out of existenc, but they didn't. They could have brought the hammer of Thor down on Wall Street and obliterated corporate shenanigans, but they didn't. Obama single-handedly could order the DOJ to stop enforcing stupid Marijuana laws, even if the weren't repealed: he hasn't. He is the commander in chief; he could have ordered the DOD the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and closed Gitmo on day one. He didn't. He could have done a million things he was elected to do, but in every single case, he has sold the soul of reform for a few token votes from Republicans who hate him anyway. He isn't a stupid man, there's no way he doesn't realize this, therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that he did it on purpose.
Obama and the rest of the Democrats took the wave of Progressivism sweeping the country that began in 2006 and culminated in 2008 with his election, and they have effectively reversed it, and then some. Now, the country is more batshit crazy for failed economic and social policies than ever. And it isn't because progressive policies don't work (the meager progress the Democrats have made is making meager progress in the economy, for example) but because the Democrats have shit all over you with your own "Hope" for "Change".
Why would I vote for another Democrat? No, thanks. I can't defend them at the polls because they've given me nothing to defend except more of the same old bullshit that has been in Washington for 40 years. The only thing I have to thank Obama for is that I have been completely freed from the delusion that the broken American political system is capable of fixing itself.
I used to agree with the OP. I no longer do. I stopped during Clinton. I vote for the Dems because they are smarter, not because they align with my interests. They will at least slaughter me in a way that makes sense.
The only vote that is going to have a nontrivial effect is a vote for someone who will enact systemic change to the very processes of legislation and government. In essence, find someone who knows the game is rigged and knows how to mend it. And wants to do so more than they want money and power.
Anyone? No?
Oh well.
Quote from: First City Hustle on October 17, 2010, 06:03:15 AM
what makes you think that taxes on the rich go to fund social programs? For that matter, what makes you think the rich ever actually end up paying any of those increased taxes?
hint: they don't, it's just an emotional appeal to get your vote.
and you're focusing on the trappings of each party rather than what REALLY goes on. The truth is, they're both bought and paid for by the same interests. Your vote for a democrat candidate does absolutely nothing that your vote for a GOP candidate wouldn't do. In the end, Bechtel/KBR/GenDyne/Lockheed-Martin/BofA/Goldman-Sachs/etc. still own your ass. Not saying you should vote one way or another or that you shouldn't cote however you want to, but you should do it without being under an illusions that it makes a tangible difference. The only elections that matter to your daily life in a tangible manner are your municipal and maybe some state elections.
That seems like a well reasoned appeal to further re-consideration, First City Hustle! Thanks.
What's funny is that people know this but haven't seemed to catch on yet. How many election cycles have been dominated now by some version of "WASHINGTON IS FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN, AND WE WILL FIX IT." ? Last time the Dems claimed it, now the Tea Party is claiming it. It's true, and it's also a fucking goldmine of popular support for whichever party most effectively claims it.
For some reason, nobody seems to ever notice that it's always being claimed by the same fucking people.
It's the homeopathy scam applied to politics.
Quote from: Sigmatic on October 17, 2010, 06:44:10 AM
It's the homeopathy scam applied to politics.
:spittake:
Quote from: First City Hustle on October 17, 2010, 04:06:13 AM
what do you think the Democratic party does/will do that will help the poor or middle class any more than the GOP?
Well it isn't just the GOP running on the R ticket anymore... I often vote blue tho mostly because the donkeys lack the will to throw a punch. McCain would have bomb Iran by now probally right before they figured out the virus code
Social freedoms seem more important then economic freedoms since I make less then the quarter million with cheese. Tho I don't think we should
eat tax the rich either, but someone should be honest its not small business owners that will be hurt as they usually can write off things as expences, its the suits making six figures have to worry their taxes will cancel out their yearly bonus. Dems aren't on easy street, or even main street, if they had listen to Ron Simms about local taxes or called the IRS on Walmart they might not see a huge voter rout like they are thinking is coming this November
Quote from: Me, one day after the 2008 electionMeet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Quote from: Pēleus on October 18, 2010, 06:57:38 AM
Quote from: First City Hustle on October 17, 2010, 04:06:13 AM
what do you think the Democratic party does/will do that will help the poor or middle class any more than the GOP?
Well it isn't just the GOP running on the R ticket anymore... I often vote blue tho mostly because the donkeys lack the will to throw a punch. McCain would have bomb Iran by now probally right before they figured out the virus code
Social freedoms seem more important then economic freedoms since I make less then the quarter million with cheese. Tho I don't think we should eat tax the rich either, but someone should be honest its not small business owners that will be hurt as they usually can write off things as expences, its the suits making six figures have to worry their taxes will cancel out their yearly bonus. Dems aren't on easy street, or even main street, if they had listen to Ron Simms about local taxes or called the IRS on Walmart they might not see a huge voter rout like they are thinking is coming this November
First of all...
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ACTUAL "TEA PARTY". FFS. They're NOT an actual political party, they're just a bunch of loudmouthed douchebags with a catchy name. So yes, they ARE still GOP.
Second of all...as a former small business owner, I can tell you that you are 100% wrong. You don't just get to "write things off as expenses" unless you want to be on the wrong end of the IRS's shitstick. And those tax increases will utterly FUCK you if you're right on the borderline of profitability. One of the many reasons I could never quite get my pizzeria to the point of being worthwhile was the continually increasing tax burden. And those rich people who make over 250K a year? They can afford tax lawyers and offshore bank accounts in the Caymans and the BVI. They'll literally never pay an extra dime in taxes no matter how much you raise their tax rate, unless they're incredibly stupid (in which case it's unlikely they make that much money).
third of all...please point me to even one instance in the last 10 or 12 years in which a publicly elected Democrat has done anything to increase your social freedoms. It's a fallacy. And anyway, without economic freedom, your social freedoms are pretty worthless.
"I mean hey, I can't afford diapers for my kid or nutritious food for my family, but at least I can smoke pot in Seattle without being hassled by the man! Except I can't because the SPD is ignoring that law ans referring more marijuana cases than ever to the prosecutor's office! YAY SOCIAL FREEDOMS!"
\
:hippie:
I was under the impression that small business taxes were based on profits, not on revenue, was this incorrect?
The bottomline:
"Shit happened, and nobody did much of anything."
Quote from: Requia ☣ on October 18, 2010, 02:33:19 PM
I was under the impression that small business taxes were based on profits, not on revenue, was this incorrect?
Just employment taxes can eat a small business alive.
Point. I forget they aren't happy with just taxing you once and being done with it, they have to tax 15 other things too. :argh!:
Quote from: Requia ☣ on October 18, 2010, 02:33:19 PM
I was under the impression that small business taxes were based on profits, not on revenue, was this incorrect?
Payroll taxes and workers comp have nothing to do with your profits. Except that they tend to make them disappear. As far as your corporate income tax, yeah it's based on profit but Peleus seemed to be positing that you could just increasingly make up expenses to write off to offset that without ending up in an IRS dungeon and believe me, it's not that easy. They scrutinize small business returns to a much higher degree than they do personal returns.
Quote from: vexati0n on October 17, 2010, 06:25:08 AM
You know what?
Two years ago, I voted Democrat because I swallowed Obama's bullshit. I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. I don't blame myself for being stupid (I mean, the facts added up well enough: Obama started dirt poor and had to work his ass off to get where he was, and there's really no logical reason to sell out at that point), but I do blame myself for being optimistic.
Obama and the Democrats have controlled Washington for 2 years now as a unit. They could have enacted serious reform: they could have scrapped Medicare and Medicaid and created a single-payer system and fucked the corrupt insurance companies right out of existenc, but they didn't. They could have brought the hammer of Thor down on Wall Street and obliterated corporate shenanigans, but they didn't. Obama single-handedly could order the DOJ to stop enforcing stupid Marijuana laws, even if the weren't repealed: he hasn't. He is the commander in chief; he could have ordered the DOD the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and closed Gitmo on day one. He didn't. He could have done a million things he was elected to do, but in every single case, he has sold the soul of reform for a few token votes from Republicans who hate him anyway. He isn't a stupid man, there's no way he doesn't realize this, therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that he did it on purpose.
Obama and the rest of the Democrats took the wave of Progressivism sweeping the country that began in 2006 and culminated in 2008 with his election, and they have effectively reversed it, and then some. Now, the country is more batshit crazy for failed economic and social policies than ever. And it isn't because progressive policies don't work (the meager progress the Democrats have made is making meager progress in the economy, for example) but because the Democrats have shit all over you with your own "Hope" for "Change".
Why would I vote for another Democrat? No, thanks. I can't defend them at the polls because they've given me nothing to defend except more of the same old bullshit that has been in Washington for 40 years. The only thing I have to thank Obama for is that I have been completely freed from the delusion that the broken American political system is capable of fixing itself.
:mittens:
On the subject of Democrats vs. Social Freedoms, I would have to agree with FCH here that it's bullshit. They will make token gestures toward progressives during campaigns, but after election day the most you get from them is "uh.. well... it's not just that easy..." They are not on anyone's side but their own, and none of them have any intention of changing the game that's played in DC unless it means creating more rules to make it harder to remove them from power. Same with the GOP.
As for the entire premise of funding social welfare with Government funds, I tend to think it's only a necessary evil. I can't see allowing people to starve to death, freeze to death, or die of curable diseases being an ethical option for any nation. On the other hand, the subsidies that the government dispenses (to industry as well as to individuals) creates a loop of dependence and therefore undermines freedom. The modern welfare state is not designed to save people from poverty or sickness, it is designed to make sure they never escape, or if they do escape, that their security is bound by so many strings that they'll never even consider bucking the system.
Personally I don't know that the current economy is all that terrible a thing, in the long run. If the government enacts a bunch of austerity measures and revokes the public teat, maybe people will quit assuming they can fumble around and they'll still be taken care of if they fail. Maybe people will take more chances. Personally, I'm building a plan for a new business right now and I wouldn't be if I thought I could fuck up my present job and move on to one of a hundred just like it, or sign up for unlimited unemployment insurance. I'm thinking now in terms of what I can do to improve my own situation, not what others can do to make sure I stay safe and my kids have food.
People in power make better liars, study shows.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35836844/
Not that this will be a surprise to any here.
Taxes really depends on the state, there's also benefits... healthcare 401k I've heard magagment rant about labor costs taking up too much of the pie. Heck the prison industry is even hit hard (maybe why they are starting to arrest more "trash") with their workers agreeing to a wage freeze.
Sims (used to be king county executive) ranted a few times about the tax burden on small business and the new income tax won't help much. I'm sure its not perfect, but his guy was the orginal hope.
no ones collecting on the big guys so the quarter million with cheese is just an attempt to draw where the middle class ends and rich protected status starts. Sims was still happy in his role back when Bill was in charge. And he had good ideas, even if he was willing to over look war crimes happening overseas. Sure we hung some japs for what we are doing now but domestic policy helps the poor even if the bastards in the bread line don't deserve it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Sims
I know who Ron Sims is. I have a long and glorious record of never having voted for him.
Figured you would :argh!:
And while yes the tea party is the same dumbasses as there always was, but for the most part these people were limited to local elections, they are taking seats at the invite only national and state level. Political hitmen like Rove and Rossi now have to share the stage with PTA mothers.
:lol:
Rossi is a joke (thank fucking god). Two-time loser, about to be three.
This is all great stuff!
I come from a long line of not giving a fuck, but having found my curiosity stirred somewhat lately, I'd like to understand better what comprises the political spectacle.
Thanks again to First City Hustle for demolishing my naive speculations. I couldn't back up my assumptions with actual facts, but I didn't know it! Interesting experience to notice some of your own fallacies. :fnord:
So maybe no difference exists at all between function of left & right? Or no difference that benefits the majority of Americans?
Totemically speaking, I still feel quite glad that we have President Obama as the figurehead/paper champ, eloquently expression nice sentiments, rather than John McCain yelling at people to stay off his lawn or whatever.
Does it become a cultural vote then? Instead of a socio-economic operational adjustment vote?
If the function stays the same no matter what, do we choose which puppet show we wanna watch?
If I gotta get jacked up by the tax man for nothing good anyways, maybe I can at least get a tax man who won't say racist shit on TV?
Educate me, Principia Discordia, I am a dummy!
Quote from: Bobby Campbell on October 19, 2010, 03:00:22 AM
If the function stays the same no matter what, do we choose which puppet show we wanna watch?
I'd call that a pretty good distillation of my take on the matter.
QuoteTotemically speaking, I still feel quite glad that we have President Obama as the figurehead/paper champ, eloquently expression nice sentiments, rather than John McCain yelling at people to stay off his lawn or whatever.
Does it become a cultural vote then? Instead of a socio-economic operational adjustment vote?
If the function stays the same no matter what, do we choose which puppet show we wanna watch?
Pretty much it all comes down to cultural resentment at this point.
http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2009/11/20/sarah-palin-wwe-star/
QuoteAt the end of this decade what we call "politics" has devolved into a kind of ongoing, brainless soap opera about dueling cultural resentments and the really cool thing about it, if you're a TV news producer or a talk radio host, is that you can build the next day's news cycle meme around pretty much anything at all, no matter how irrelevant — like who's wearing a flag lapel pin and who isn't, who spent $150K worth of campaign funds on clothes and who didn't, who wore a t-shirt calling someone a cunt and who didn't, and who put a picture of a former Vice Presidential candidate in jogging shorts on his magazine cover (and who didn't).
It doesn't matter what the argument is about. What's important is that once the argument starts, the two sides will automatically coalesce around the various instant-cocoa talking points and scream at each other until they're blue in the face, or until the next argument starts.
And while some of us are old enough to remember that once upon a time, these arguments always had at least some sort of ideological flavor to them, i.e. the throwdowns were at least rooted in some sort of real political issue (war, taxes, immigration, etc.) we've now got a whole generation that is accustomed to screaming at cultural enemies as an end in itself, for the sheer dismal fun of it. Start fighting first, figure out the reasons later.
Sarah Palin is the Empress-Queen of the screaming-for-screaming's sake generation. The people who dismiss her book Going Rogue as the petty, vindictive meanderings of a preening paranoiac with the IQ of a celery stalk completely miss the book's significance, because in some ways it's really a revolutionary and innovative piece of literature.
Palin — and there's just no way to deny this — is a supremely gifted politician. She has staked out, as her own personal political turf, the entire landscape of incoherent white American resentment. In this area she leaves even Rush Limbaugh in the dust.
QuoteMost normal people cannot connect on an emotional level with Rush's meanderings on how Harry Reid is buying off Mary Landrieu with pork in the health care bill. They can, however, connect with stories about how top McCain strategist and Karl Rove acolyte Steve Schmidt told poor Sarah to shut her pie-hole on election day, or how her supposed allies in the McCain campaign stabbed her in the back by leaking gossip about her to reporters, how Schmidt used the word "fuck" in front of her daughter, or even with the strange tales about Schmidt ordering Sarah to consult with a nutritionist to improve her campaign endurance when she herself knew she just needed to get out in the fresh air and run (If there's one thing Sarah Palin knows, it's herself!).
Complaining about the assholes we interact with on a daily basis is the #1 eternal pastime of the human race. We all do it, and we get to do it every day, because the world is full of assholes. Me personally, I waste an enormous amount of time seething over people who get onto crowded subway cars with big backpacks on and/or talk in the Amtrak quiet car and/or drive 57 mph in the fast lane or, my personal favorite, walking with glacial slowness in a horizontal row four overweight tourists across on a New York City sidewalk. We all get into furious arguments at work that make us want to explode in self-righteous fury (in my office dramas I always realize I was actually the asshole a day or so later) and when we get home from work, this is usually what our loved ones hear about for at least the first hour or so.
Not health care, not financial regulatory reform, not Iraq or Afghanistan, but — assholes.
Sarah Palin is on an endless crusade against assholes. It's all she thinks about. She doesn't really have any political ideas, in the classic sense of the word — in fact the only thing resembling real political convictions in Going Rogue revolve around the Trans-Alaska pipeline and how awesome she thinks it is.
And that's basically it. The Dems and Republicans will play it the same on 90%+ of issues, but allow their little proxies and tools in the media to blow these cultural resentments out of all proportion so you will have to take one side or the other, based on your personal inclinations and that, right there, when you feel compelled to take one side over the other, is where the trap is.
When Sarah Palin criticized Andrew Sullivan as a "leftist reporter", that was very revealing. For those of you who don't know, Andrew Sullivan is an America-based British blogger for the Atlantic Magazine, and something of an independent rightwinger, in the centre-right Tory way that was popular in the UK political scene in the 90s and early 2000s.
But.
But, he's a Catholic. He's highly educated, even something of an intellectual (by today's decayed standards). He lives on the East Coast. He's gay. He admits to smoking pot in the past. He's argued the Iraq War has been a mistake (IIRC). He probably watches foreign language films and drinks French wine. He's travelled to countries where English is not the primary language. He refuses to submit to GOP Party discipline and will actually consider arguments by other people on their own merits, for the most part.
THEREFORE, by every cultural indicator, he's a Leftist and, to the likes of Palin, the enemy.
And once you understand that train of thought, most of US politics becomes very clear.
Or, to put it another way. You said:
QuoteTotemically speaking, I still feel quite glad that we have President Obama as the figurehead/paper champ, eloquently expression nice sentiments, rather than John McCain yelling at people to stay off his lawn or whatever.
[...]
If I gotta get jacked up by the tax man for nothing good anyways, maybe I can at least get a tax man who won't say racist shit on TV?
Consider it this way. Obama continues both the War on Terror, and the War on Drugs, and is deporting increasing numbers of Latino immigrants, far more than happened during the Bush years. The War on Terror seems to disproportionally affect the lives of civilians in Arab and South Asian countries, in terms of them ending up dead for few good reasons. Additionally, the US soldiers fighting those wars are at least in part made up of minorities who joined the military in order to get a good education and career where few other options were available, and so it
may have a disproportionate impact on them as well.
The War on Drugs seems to end up in sending a lot of little fish into prison, while the Cartel leaders continue to ply their trade. A lot of these little fish are again made up of ethnic minorities.
And again, when it comes to deporting immigrants, Latinos are overwhelmingly targeted for this. In the past, and probably right now, people are being deported who actually do have the right to reside in the USA.
Is Obama personally racist? I doubt it. I doubt many, if any, of his Cabinet are racist in their personal views. Yet their policies are having a massive, unfair impact on people who are not white (and, not incidentally, usually from the lowest socioeconomic levels of society).
But because Obama isn't walking around like a Klukker on the television, does that make it any better? Most Democrats seem to think so, or at least have mastered the art of filtering out information which portrays the
Boy Prince, uh, Dear Leader, in a negative light, regardless of the factual basis in which it resides. Go onto almost any Democratic blog and say what I said here, and you will get one of three replies:
a) "go away Teabagger" (lolwut? Cuz teabaggers are so concerned about racist policies, right?)
b) "go away you radical leftist/purity troll/butthurt Clinton supporter"
c) "but the Republicans are worse! And besides, here is Rand Paul saying that the 1964 Civil Rights Act was a mistake!"
See what I mean? "Saying racist things" is a cultural signifier. For instance, what if I told you that H. L. Mencken, the infamous American reporter and writer, was anti-Semitic? If you were not already aware of this, you may find your position towards him becoming decidedly less sympathetic. But, what if I told you now that despite his anti-Semitism, he nonetheless lobbied the government very hard to accept Jewish refugees from Europe in the years leading up to WWII? Both of these facts about the man are true, by the way.
Of course it would be nice to live in a world where people did not say hateful things about other people based on skin colour, religion (within reason), gender or the like. I wont dispute that. But it really doesn't matter one way or the other when their policies are having such an effect on certain segments of the population, and not others, and those affected segments all seem to be minority groups within the country in question. In politics, what people do and are capable of doing is more important than what they say. But try telling that to a media intent on selling a narrative based around cultural resentment and proving the "other guys" are evil, full of hatred, eat puppies for breakfast (alive) and, most importantly, Have Wrong Values.
If Democrats were serious, here's how the last 2 years would have played out:
Obama: REFORM TIME! HOLD YOUR PANTS BITCHES YOU ARE GOING DOWN LIKE MY MOM ON A BLACK DUDE!
Republicans: LOL! FILIBUSTER! NANANANANA!
Obama: OH NO! FILIBUSTER MANEUVER! MUST CHECK REALITY!
Republicans: WE WIN! WE WIN! HOORAY FOR CORRUPTION AND IGNORANCE!
Obama: HOLD ON NOW... WHAT IS THIS? MY POCKET CONSTITUTION SAYS MAJORITY VOTE! NO SUCH THING AS FILIBUSTER! LOL YOUR MANEUVER DOES NOT COMPUTE! I INVOKE VOX POPULI ON YOUR REDNECK BULLSHIT!
Republicans: *HEAD EXPLODE*
***
This, of course, will never happen. This is all the evidence you need.
Quote from: Bobby Campbell on October 17, 2010, 03:47:03 AM
Quote from: First City Hustle on October 17, 2010, 03:28:28 AM
whether or not you can relate, Cain's analysis (not an opinion) is absolutely true.
It could very well be, it also pretty much supports my scenario.
Unless I misunderstand, he states that people outside of a certain economic situation will have 5% of their lives improved upon by 0.000000001% w/ a Democrat run government.
Those percentages seem perhaps a bit pessimistic to me. As does the Hitler/Stalin Comparison. And by no objective standard will I get well or truly fucked!
I understand most people do not have much optimism left, I don't blame them, but nor do I have any reason to join them.
I still think despite the well calculated emotional appeals to the contrary, poor - middle class people should generally vote for democrats.
But, you do realize that your country has a Democrat Party President, RIGHT NOW and has had for the past two years, right?
And look what he's doing! Ordering assassinations of US citizens and ruining any chance of universal healthcare* you ever got, putting a kill-switch on the Internet and I don't know what else.
Are you trying to argue that, whoops bad luck, this particular Democrat seems to be broken, but HONEST all (ok, most) of the OTHER ONES are the ones you REALLY WANT so just keep on voting for them, because chances are we ought to be getting a Good One any time soon, now.
Sorry if I don't believe that. I don't call that having a lack of optimism. I call that re-enacting Treehouse of Horror VII part 4 (http://www.google.com/search?q=Don't+blame+me:+I+voted+for+Kodos).
(* take it from the real first-world countries: it's pretty good. actually improves your freedom more than in whatever sense people argue it lessens it. plus, it's healthy for you)
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 19, 2010, 04:42:54 PM
Are you trying to argue that, whoops bad luck, this particular Democrat seems to be broken, but HONEST all (ok, most) of the OTHER ONES are the ones you REALLY WANT so just keep on voting for them, because chances are we ought to be getting a Good One any time soon, now.
Hey Triple Zero!
Further on through the thread from the post you responded to I already got convinced of my faulty political perspective! But thanks for your input also.
I'll admit perhaps to some further ignorance, but I do indeed still much prefer President Obama to the other realistic alternatives.
I can't say I give a fuck about al-Alwaki one way or the other, I'd rather assassinations not take place in general, but I assume that they will anyways, I also wish ponies could fly! At least now maybe it won't matter if the guy who snipes him is gay or not. (It's progress not perfection)
Whatever the backdoor realities, the surface spectacle indicates a shit ton of democrats will lose their jobs because they got the United States at least a step closer to a more civilized form of health care. (well time still needs to tell on that one...but) This cutting both ways stuff doesn't sit right with me! Half the people think they did something terrible because they gave us some, the other half think they did something terrible because they didn't give us enough.
and talk to your fellow Europeans first about shutting down the internet!
Better reasons exist for taking Obama and the democrats to task than what you stated, and thus your basic point still stands. But who would you have me vote for instead?
I mean I get it, anti-incumbency no matter what, right?
Not me, lesser of 2 evils please. EVEN IF! only 0.0000000000000001% less evil AND only from my limited point of view AND if it doesn't really change anything.
Aspire to the light, that's the best anyone can do.
ALSO! BTW The last 2 years have been BY FAR the best of my life. Now I don't credit Obama for that, I work my fucking ass off, I make what I need to happen goddamn fucking happen. So really all this "everything's terrible" bullshit don't touch me...I'm American dreaming all up in this bitch!
I want things to get better for everyone else too.
I guess we can at least all agree that politics will not facilitate that.
Quote from: Bobby Campbell on October 20, 2010, 06:23:57 AM
Hey Triple Zero!
SUP BOBBLES!
QuoteFurther on through the thread from the post you responded to I already got convinced of my faulty political perspective! But thanks for your input also.
Is true, I wrote too fast (plus Vex gave way more compelling stories about what Obama did bad), but I also jumped on the possibility to quote Simpsons :)
Quoteand talk to your fellow Europeans first about shutting down the internet!
I am!
Well, if voting Pirate Party and supporting Bits of Freedom (Dutch version of EFF basically) is good enough ;-)
QuoteBetter reasons exist for taking Obama and the democrats to task than what you stated, and thus your basic point still stands. But who would you have me vote for instead?
it's just, maybe better to frame it as "why not to vote Republican" rather than "why to vote Democrat", IMO.
QuoteAspire to the light, that's the best anyone can do.
Look at what it done for the bananas. They got all bent.
;-)
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 20, 2010, 02:14:21 PM
it's just, maybe better to frame it as "why not to vote Republican" rather than "why to vote Democrat", IMO.
That was my original idea! Basically I wanted to take a rare try at a political cartoon that was a take on amusement park ride ride signs, y'know, "You must be this rich to vote Republican" and so I started this thread to see if the idea would hold water, and alas it will not. No one who votes Republican will not do so because of any reason that I have, hell those are the reasons they DO vote Republican!
Quote from: Cain on October 20, 2010, 03:01:49 PM
You're wasting your time, Trip. Bobby has decided that the Democrats are the lesser of two evils, as opposed to a different flavour of evil, and that he for some reason must vote and that he must somehow use the mighty power of his single vote to help influence national level politics in that less evil direction.
I haven't decided anything, just working things out, thinking out loud, playing around w/ ideas. I can see why you would think I've such simplistic and idiotic notions on the matter, that's more or less how I've presented myself here, but there is a bit more nuance behind it. Or not, fuck it, who cares!?
At least notice that I closed that post w/
"I want things to get better for everyone else too.
I guess we can at least all agree that politics will not facilitate that."
I am voting for whoever can fuck shit up the fastest. I am drooling over the prospect of a Palin/O'Donnell campaign.
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 20, 2010, 04:28:10 PM
I am voting for whoever can fuck shit up the fastest. I am drooling over the prospect of a Palin/O'Donnell campaign.
I can respect this! A man who knows what he wants and is out there getting after it!
Oh shit! I'm sorry Cain!
I totally spaced/TL/DRed you on your two very informative replies, and then responded to Triple Zero, w/out benefit of your input.
Your frustration w/ me persisting in folly now makes sense.
I'll see if I can learn a thing or two and get back to ya!
Cain, sir! You got me!
That was entirely excellent and effective in bringing me to still another new point of view.
I thank you very much for your elucidation!
It takes me a long time to think about things sometimes. I don't know that I've gotten that far along w/ this, but this fragment from Ezra Pound's Cantos has me thinking...
QuoteSun up; work
sundown; to rest
dig well and drink of the water
dig field; eat of the grain
Imperial power is? and to us what is it?
I require neither permission nor help from the state to continue to build the life I wish to live.
Regarding the desire to change the system...
Quote from: BUCKMINSTER FULLER"To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
...If my systemic formulations are accurate they will be successful, if they are successful they will be utilized, if they are utilized they will alter the system...
It seems very likely that my bullshit has no wider implications than my own fascination anyways, in which case; no harm/no foul.
Quote from: Bobby Campbell on October 29, 2010, 02:11:33 AM
I require neither permission nor help from the state to continue to build the life I wish to live.
Okay. Don't use our roads anymore.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 29, 2010, 02:16:35 AM
Quote from: Bobby Campbell on October 29, 2010, 02:11:33 AM
I require neither permission nor help from the state to continue to build the life I wish to live.
Okay. Don't use our roads anymore.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
The first thing I do with all monies is put 40% aside for the taxman. Good point, but I'm talking about something else!
Quote from: Bobby Campbell on October 29, 2010, 02:42:12 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 29, 2010, 02:16:35 AM
Quote from: Bobby Campbell on October 29, 2010, 02:11:33 AM
I require neither permission nor help from the state to continue to build the life I wish to live.
Okay. Don't use our roads anymore.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
The first thing I do with all monies is put 40% aside for the taxman. Good point, but I'm talking about something else!
Okay, pending a further explanation, I'm going to have to give you the MRH Award for Politics for this week.
(http://www.zewg.net/dump/photo/mrh.gif)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqtM9Wytvz4&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5cMZYdpRWE&feature=player_embedded
Where did all these mad sons of bitches come from?!