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Messages - tyrannosaurus vex

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31
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: May 07, 2020, 09:39:27 pm »
I wasn’t oversimplifying in any way. I am taking actual quotes and putting them in ALL CAPS, nothing more.

Sure, maybe your leftist communities aren’t doing outreach that way. But a lot of them are doing it that way and I can’t hear whatever message you think is back there over the sound of “maybe if Trump wins 2020 people will realize we can’t trust our system to fix things” — another actual quote.

The /only/ message they’re sending is the one you call an oversimplification and misjudgement. And if the leftists are encoding a hidden message behind that, I don’t feel like it’s fair to get mad when people take it at face value rather than finding your PGP key scattered across your entire post history and converting the white space ratios of each post to encrypted text so you can unlock it and read the actual scriptures.

Also, before you say it, I’ve engaged some of them about it, and they said I was sealioning and probably a far-right sock. So you are literally the only person who I have the opportunity to put this shit to.

That's all a fair critique. As with any movement, there's a mass of undiplomatic and not particularly philosophically inclined cannon-fodder at the base. There's a lot of overlap with the purity-as-a-goal-by-itself crowd. It's like the Linux community that way - a whole lot of "if you don't get it by now you're too dumb to bother with", and that's sad and decidedly unhelpful. I can't change that about it, though. All I can do is be at least one point where the ideas behind it can get expressed and discussed in some way.

I think it's important to stop treating each other like the enemy. That's why I keep repeating this thing about berniebots didn't ruin Hillary's campaign. Leftists who won't compromise beyond Bernie Sanders are not an existential threat to whatever it is that the mainstream are trying to accomplish, and it doesn't hurt anything to just let them do their thing. And conversely, leftists shitting hate on liberals doesn't do anything except convince the liberals that they really are the enemy.

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Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: May 07, 2020, 09:09:52 pm »
I’m saying we can do both. And forgive me if I have misjudged your intent here, really. BUT: if you are agreeing that we can do both, you are literally the only one talking the way you are who thinks that way. Without exaggeration, every single solitary leftist off of PD I’m seeing is like “BERNIE WAS OUR COMPROMISE CANDIDATE,” or “BIDEN IS LITERALLY JUST TRUMP,” or other “fuck everyone who needs this I want you to suffer mightily for a potential better future” type of slogans and chants.

So forgive me for believing that the actual unicorn was yet another jackass with a seashell glued to its head.

There are 2 problems here. First is messaging on the part of the leftists you identify who are (understandably imho but nevertheless) still in the disappointment/anger phase of watching what they thought was a reasonable compromise be shot down and/or are bad at explaining their positions in general. I'm probably in that camp to some extent, but it plays into the second problem which is

Everyone who is is to some degree happy to have Biden on the ballot seems to hear criticism of Biden and immediately stop listening. They think we are saying "BIDEN IS LITERALLY JUST TRUMP" because that's the extent of what they bother to hear and they are under the misguided and unfounded impression that someone's failure to toe the party line in 2016 is somehow responsible for Trump in the first place, which again, it isn't.

You also might be mistaking intragroup messaging that assumes everyone in the audience already has some grounding in the basics, for intergroup messaging that doesn't skip so many bullet points in the diagram. Equivalency between Trump and Biden doesn't make sense (obviously) if you're actually talking about Trump and Biden per se. But in the wider "leftist" community, they are just two points on the spectrum and Biden is much closer to Trump on that spectrum than he is to any actual leftists -- that's what they're saying, not that there is somehow literally no difference, even if the words they use don't bother to express that nuance. Discarding their arguments out of hand is a kind of willful ignorance that contributes nothing.

The main disconnect really seems (to me) to be in people's concepts of what constitutes meaningful political action in today's climate. If you take the established political system in the US as the fundamental and inescapable basis of social action, then of course Biden is preferable to Trump. That is to say, if you believe that your civic responsibility begins and ends with the vote you cast, then there's no question who you ought to be voting for -- and again the vast majority of Leftists will be voting for Biden.

But Leftists reject the idea that we can (and must) accomplish anything of any real civic value by casting votes in the system that exists right now. That system is too old, too slow and too corrupt to genuinely respond to the needs of the modern populace. It obviously can't just be abandoned and ignored (yet), but there is an expectation that individuals contribute to social change outside that system, including to the point that whatever the shitfucks in DC are doing becomes more or less irrelevant to the actual experience of everyday life in one or more places. It's incumbent upon each of us, to whatever degree we reasonably can, to take some kind of direct action and not simply throw up our hands and leave it at voting. The real disdain among Leftists isn't for Biden, but for people who think they've done their part when all they have done is vote for Biden (if they could do more than that).

TL;DR: Yeah, you misjudged my intent, but only because you've misjudged and oversimplified the political position of leftists in general.

33
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: May 07, 2020, 08:10:40 pm »
I want to remind you, vex, that I stand a very real chance of actual, factual death in the next two weeks. You don’t get to socially distance when you’re on the streets.

Apparently there’s a huge wave of cold weather about to hit the East Coast, which is literally the only place I have a hair of a smidgen of a chance of survival. And I do not have winter clothing.

Oh, and I need to remind you that there is no organization in the continental US that isn’t overwhelmed by this to the point of turning away people who are already there, so there is no support to turn to for an outsider for sure.

If I survive this, and the shitstain in chief remains large and in charge for four more years, I might very well be rounded up as a political dissident, dangerous mental case, and sexual deviant.

That sucks and I wish it wasn't that way, and I very sincerely don't want to do anything that makes your terrible situation worse than it already is.

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This is in some sense a war. “Our side” is fighting defense on all fronts. You want to fight offense on the moonshot front, and redirect all momentum from every other offensive front.

While we are being beaten into oblivion from ALL sides.

But that isn't what I want to do. What I plan to do, and what I hope every sane person plans to do, is vote for the authorized representative of the downtrodden, in this case Biden. More importantly I want everyone to participate in their local elections, which have a more direct and less filtered effect on the situations of people in their immediate region than any federal officer has. But at the same time I believe it's important that people remain aware of the abject inadequacy of the choices we are given and engage in loud and disruptive protests of the system that gives them to us.

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I might die already. How much worse will it get if you have your way and fail? And you need to understand that you are (like me and a good many others here) a fringe radical, and you cannot win except by mass murder, so failure is damn near guaranteed.

We need people working on rapid change, yes, absolutely. We also need to be working on everything the fuck else, because otherwise things get so bad that no one can save us, even if you find the magic solution to rapid change. I am begging you to step back from this fucking abyss.

Ultimately I want people to realize that there is no electoral solution to our problems. It isn't that I am mad because my guy didn't get nominated, and it isn't that I want people to sit on their asses in some kind of hopeless and meaningless "protest" of a system that's just tickled pink to have them sit on their asses. What I want is for people to stop waiting around for the system to present them with the right option on a ballot (as if that's ever going to happen) and start engaging in direct action to alleviate the suffering around them and frustrate the machinery that drives that suffering. I don't want people to give up on hope, I want them to understand their hope is misplaced if it is in the existing political system at all.

ETA: It's worth reiterating here that angry and dissatisfied leftists who weren't happy with the DNC in 2016 were not a significant contributing factor in Donald Trump's win that year. And this isn't directed at anyone here specifically, but telling people to stop demanding a truly equitable system and democratic representation is a curious way to stave off fascism.

34
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: May 07, 2020, 06:14:00 pm »
If the long game was the way it works, we wouldn't be scrambling for mediocre damage control after 40 years of incremental change in the wrong direction and 4 years of precipitous falling into a fascist abyss. Why does the GOP get to go full tilt Nazi but the DNC has to settle for this baby step bullshit? Either it's because the DNC doesn't actually want all that much progress anyway, or it's because the USA in general just isn't the sort of place where progress happens. In neither case does "incremental change" feel very likely. I am tired of hearing about this "slow march of progress" and "long arc or history" horseshit when a Republican like Eisenhower would be jeered off the Democrats' stage these days for being more radical than Bernie Sanders. It's all hogwash. History has no direction, and the notion that progress must be slow is a myth that only serves to reinforce the status quo.

So now you can choose between "things not getting much better" or "things continuing to roll downhill on fire."

Doesn't matter what you're tired of hearing, doesn't matter that you'd prefer candidate that would prefer more rapid change.  There are loads of things that I want, things that make sense, that I'm not going to get.

It's like that.  And that's the way it is.

It's like that when everyone has agreed among themselves that the way we do things now is the way things must be done because it's the way we have always done them. And "things not getting much better" isn't on the ballot, you're talking about the "things stop getting worse at their present breakneck speed and go back to getting worse at a more manageable pace" option. People keep telling me that we have to do progress slowly so the Luddites and rednecks can sort of keep up, but weirdly the Other Guys don't hear that argument about their concentration camps and racist cops and they are quite free to hop into the deep end as quickly as they please, and we are asked to just bide our time and accommodate them. Because god forbid things get worse before they get better, that's a bridge too far. No, it's preferable that things just get worse, period, albeit more slowly.

35
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: May 07, 2020, 04:31:45 pm »
If the long game was the way it works, we wouldn't be scrambling for mediocre damage control after 40 years of incremental change in the wrong direction and 4 years of precipitous falling into a fascist abyss. Why does the GOP get to go full tilt Nazi but the DNC has to settle for this baby step bullshit? Either it's because the DNC doesn't actually want all that much progress anyway, or it's because the USA in general just isn't the sort of place where progress happens. In neither case does "incremental change" feel very likely. I am tired of hearing about this "slow march of progress" and "long arc or history" horseshit when a Republican like Eisenhower would be jeered off the Democrats' stage these days for being more radical than Bernie Sanders. It's all hogwash. History has no direction, and the notion that progress must be slow is a myth that only serves to reinforce the status quo.

36
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: May 06, 2020, 03:45:53 pm »
there's a lot of misinformation going around, not the least of which is that "berniebros" somehow cost Hillary the election, and not the fact that she took her election for granted and neglected key battleground states. Sanders supporters turned out for Hillary to the tune of about 85%, and the rest of them were never going to vote for a Democrat in any event. The number of protest voters (both those who refused to vote and those who voted for a third party candidate) was not large enough to make a significant difference in the result.

It was not the loud minority of hard-left poopy-pants [non]voters who got Trump the White House. The idea that it was their fault is just lazy thinking. Trump was elected because a wave of racist populism and economic disenfranchisement pushed the electorate toward a strongman. It was the same dynamic that got Hitler elected in Germany. The same thing happened throughout Europe at the same time. It was not because a relatively small number of holdouts refused to compromise their values, and it wasn't because all Sanders supporters are cantankerous misogynists. Thinking those people are to blame (or even exist in statistically relevant numbers) just gives a person someone to hate, which feels good but doesn't really accomplish anything. I mean, unless shitting hate is the whole goal, in which case it achieves its objective quite effectively.

As for 2020, everyone who is going to vote for Biden is already set on doing so. You can demand the act of voting for Biden if you want, but demanding that people's inner voices be intentionally and genuinely happy about it is just dumb.

37
I can't wait for the conspiracy people to seize this article as proof this was an evil plot by China to use biological weapons on the entire world

38
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: April 11, 2020, 03:13:08 pm »
yeah it's a lot of horrible shit out there. I am mostly just disappointed in the fact that we can't even imagine the wholesale rebuilding of society because the foundational assumption underlying everything we could possibly do is that we can't trust the people around us. we must preserve the civility and structure of government, even as it descends into fascism, even though millions are harmed even by harm reduction. this sense that everything is fucked and the best we can hope for is slowing that descent because people are shit and can only be nominally restrained by normality and habit. it's oppressive and depressing and uninteresting.


39
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: April 10, 2020, 05:55:58 pm »
let me try a linguistic cleave:


-Bad accelerationism is making potholes so that the city (which typically ignores potholes) will finally notice & send out a team to fill em in.

-Good accelerationism is intensifying the existing potholes by spraypainting dicks around them.


https://www.ladbible.com/news/uk-potholes-gets-fixed-after-protestor-spray-paints-penises-around-them-20190427

okay but why this underlying assumption that only the city is capable of filling potholes?

if we pay taxes so that the city takes care of the roads,
but people begin filling potholes themselves,
what is the systemic outcome?


well, in the short term, the potholes get fixed. in the long term i guess one or the other becomes redundant, or the tax money that was supposed to go for potholes goes for smartbombs instead. but that's already happening anyway.

40
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: April 10, 2020, 05:31:31 pm »
let me try a linguistic cleave:


-Bad accelerationism is making potholes so that the city (which typically ignores potholes) will finally notice & send out a team to fill em in.

-Good accelerationism is intensifying the existing potholes by spraypainting dicks around them.


https://www.ladbible.com/news/uk-potholes-gets-fixed-after-protestor-spray-paints-penises-around-them-20190427

okay but why this underlying assumption that only the city is capable of filling potholes?

41
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: April 10, 2020, 05:14:52 pm »
I think I'm an accelerationist in the sense that I believe accelerationism describes what's happening right now -- as the roller coaster picks up speed, nuts and bolts begin to fall off. Systems fail when pushed to their limit.

With exceptions, I don't see it as desirable. Incremental change usually results in less suffering, although it does meander, and prolongs bad conditions. So not always.
The problem with incremental change in this case is the direction it's headed is definitely the wrong one. We are incrementally marching directly into full-blown fascism, not toward anything resembling sanity and openness. People say "vote blue because we need to take baby steps" but the only thing that accomplishes is increasingly slightly applying the brakes to this slide. We take baby steps toward something better during Democratic administrations, and then we take great big leaps in the other direction when the GOP takes over. The net result isn't progress, at all. The "incremental change" argument is moot af.

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I'm trying to imagine living in the US during the 1850s... obviously the civil war was a terrible thing, but so was slavery. If you were editing a newspaper in that period, and your ultimate goal is to minimize human suffering throughout the union, would the "right" thing be to agitate, or dissipate the cultural tension? In the short term, dissipation may have been better, but in the long view, agitation was more helpful.

But we are not beings who exist in the long-term... we can't see if breaking the system actually leads to fixes. So we have to take care of each other right now.
Yes, we need to take care of each other. Like, directly, not via the convenient proxy of the state (which demonstrably does not take care of people, even under the most beneficent administrations).

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The thing about accelerationist arguments is that bringing the shit to the surface has to be useful. If no mechanism exists to correct the problem once it's crested above the water, then all you've done is make things worse.

For example, a friend remarked to me that Trump's reelection is the only way for a progressive candidate to be president this decade..  because 4 years of Biden will basically hand the next election to a republican, who might get 2 terms, so the opportunity for a real reform president may not manifest until 2028 or 2032.... But yo, where the fuck is this mystery progressive candidate coming from? We haven't been able to generate an effective one in the last 4 years, what makes anybody think one will descend from socialist nirvana in 2024?

A more present example is the healthcare system... in a world of pandemics, linking health insurance to employment is patently a bad idea. "Good accelerationists" wouldn't cheer for the healthcare system to break, would not hope for economic devastation -- but would capitalize on its current insufficiency and seize the opportunity to make a case for something else.

On healthcare, the current system is already about as bad as it can get from the perspective of half or more of Americans. Obamacare definitely helped people (myself included, my daughter specifically), but a lot of what it accomplished was on paper only. Millions of people still left out, tens of millions of people "covered" in theory but still unable to afford care when it comes to actually getting care. The current state of affairs already requires specific expansions of coverage via Medicare/Medicaid because the system we have just doesn't cut it. Effectively this is no different from having no system at all. Biden specifically is still very much in favor of continuing to link healthcare to employment because he knows that's one of the biggest things forcing workers to accept substandard employment conditions, which he also supports.

As for whether or not reelecting Trump will or won't allow a real progressive candidate, again I think it's silly to ever hope for a genuinely progressive candidate in any year, in any scenario. Our system simply will not allow it. Sanders was hardly progressive by objective standards and he never really had a chance. That's why my "accelerationism" focuses on extracurricular action. We cannot afford to invest our energy in a system that has proven itself to be steadfastly against any actual progress.

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Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: April 10, 2020, 04:56:10 pm »
Accelerationism is making things worse so that they can get better faster. 

This has never worked.

Depends on your perspective. WW2 made things pretty awful, but then Germany stopped being a Nazi trashfire. The American Revolution didn't make things better for most people but whoever it was that was mad about taxes on tea were probably ok with it.

There's a weird tendency to believe that living standards in the USA begin and end with federal policy, like the official state of our government is an unbreakable physical law within the context of which everything exists. Like a Supreme Court full of jackals is as immutable as gravity or something. I don't buy it. "The Government" is just a thing people do in cooperation with each other to achieve some result they want. There's no reason only one of those types of things can exist at a time.

Saying "welp, that's the best we can do, and insisting on anything better is tantamount to betrayal of the disadvantaged" is just an admission that America is fundamentally a racist, sexist pile of garbage full of irredeemable garbage people, so the best we can hope for is Corporatism over (outright) Fascism. I don't support blowing my vote (and again, I am voting for Biden) and leaving it at that. I support acting outside the bounds of this clearly broken system, developing direct support networks that do what our governments refuse to do, and making the whole political charade obsolete.

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Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: April 09, 2020, 11:50:57 pm »
isn't human extinction just the Big Acceleration tho

44
Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: April 09, 2020, 10:48:47 pm »
Oh, and the GOP has apparently finally picked up on this.

It's all over now.

well, yeah. that was my whole point to begin with. it's all over. there is no functional point in trying to avoid it. except where you'd prefer voters who weren't so easily manipulated by these things, I'd prefer a party that didn't keep picking the sorts of people who are so susceptible to it. can't have the one without the other, really.

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Aneristic Illusions / Re: UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD
« on: April 09, 2020, 07:41:57 pm »

Alternatively we could stop scrambling for a "safe" position that's only "safe" compared to a catastrophic alternative but would itself be described as the catastrophic alternative 40 years ago, over and over again, forever chasing our tails and pretending we are accomplishing something but actually just delaying the inevitable. Harm reduction is fine and all but when that's your only plan, and the only plan you'll even entertain, it's sort of useless.


OH, AND ANOTHER THING:

Even if we DID vote for Social Program Jesus or whomever next time, it WON'T MATTER.  Because in the spring of 2024, someone will make an unsubstantiated claim about how Social Program Jesus raped someone in 1978 and we will dump them like hot rocks on the accusation alone, leaving Don Jr to be the next president.

Because we are fucking morons and we should just launch our entire nuclear inventory right now.  Like right fucking now.

I know the difference is evaporating to the point of hardly being worth mentioning but this isn't a Bernie Sanders Is My Savior situation, it's a "Bernie Sanders best represented (until a month ago or whatever) my last hope for salvaging this political system". I don't have a shrine to this guy in my bathroom. I don't actually even follow him beyond knowing his platform. It's too bad everyone thinks this is about some specific person because the Jesus jokes would land better if it were. If it turns out Sanders had a credible accusation of sexual assault, yeah I'd drop him as the avatar of whatever this idea is, but that doesn't mean the idea would die along with him. But what idea does Biden stand for? I mean, besides "Please I'll Do Whatever You Say Just Don't Shoot Another Hostage Oh God Where's The Cavalry"?

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