So, I was thinking about what kind of person I was when I heard about the PD, and the kind of person I was now.
The person I was then was idealistic, optimistic, and always looking for a buzz or a good laugh.
The person I am now is more jaded, more "realpolitik", optimistic but cautious, borderline alcoholic with a gallows humor.
The former seems to be the kind of person ripe for recruiting. So, how do we present ourselves in order to appeal to these people? Maybe the idea is to lure the ground troops in with Lulz, and then slowly reveal to them the Hideous Truths.
That is to say, we start by getting them laughing, and only over time show them the laughter that sounds like screaming.
So, how to do that without resorting to Pinealism?
If the Pinealism is genuinely funny, then there's nothing wrong with it. Anything that makes people laugh, only to realize that there are people out there who want them to stop laughing at that sort of thing, is fair game.
So we need a Shits 'n' Giggles companion to the BIP. Will there be lots of stupids mucking about? Yes, but please, suffer the little children. At least a few of them won't get eaten and will survive to adulthood. If I had come straight here and had not had my fun lolling about with the fnords, Sacred Chaos, etc, I would have been all like "What is this crap?" and left.
Quote from: LMNO on January 07, 2008, 03:14:54 PM
So, I was thinking about what kind of person I was when I heard about the PD, and the kind of person I was now.
The person I was then was idealistic, optimistic, and always looking for a buzz or a good laugh.
The person I am now is more jaded, more "realpolitik", optimistic but cautious, borderline alcoholic with a gallows humor.
The former seems to be the kind of person ripe for recruiting. So, how do we present ourselves in order to appeal to these people? Maybe the idea is to lure the ground troops in with Lulz, and then slowly reveal to them the Hideous Truths.
That is to say, we start by getting them laughing, and only over time show them the laughter that sounds like screaming.
So, how to do that without resorting to Pinealism?
The Map is Not The Territory. The map, is just a map... a Pinealist map is a map, just the same as a BiPer map is, or a Dada or absurdist map etc etc etc. The trick is in being able to use any map that will help you with an aspect of the territory. If you want to recruit people that use Map X, chances are you'll recruit better if you make use of Map X.
"I am no maps slave, but I have made myself an explorer of all maps, in order to win the more for
Chaos. To the Pinealist I have made myself as a Pinealist, in order to win Pinealists; to those who live
in the CotSG I have come as one under Bob, in order to win those who are with Bob —
not that I myself am necessarily with Bob. To those who live without the Law of Fives I have come
as one without the law, in order to win those who are without the law — not that I am
free of the Law of fives, for it still shows up quite often and occasionally as a 23. To those who
are dadaist I have made myself dadaist, so as to win the dadaist; in fact, I have become all things
to all people, in order that, one way or another, I may have some of them over to play. But I do it all
for the sake of the LOL, so that I may share the LULZ with others"
A slight variation on the words once spoken by one of the worlds most successful recruiters.
I am not sure how I feel about all this recruitment.
Shut up and get in line, citizen.
Quote from: LMNO on January 07, 2008, 05:47:03 PM
Shut up and get in line, citizen.
Damn Straight...who said Nigel could have an opinion?!
Quote from: Nigel on January 07, 2008, 05:46:04 PM
I am not sure how I feel about all this recruitment.
Me, I'm almost rabidly anti-recruiting, or evangelizing, or anything similar. While I certainly have no ill will to anyone that DOES do such things, I won't be doing it. If someone finds the PD on their own, or stumbles across something that makes them take an interest, then sweet! However, I refuse to attempt to convince anyone that I have a WAY
tm that is something that will work for them.
How can "think for yourself, schmuck!" possibly be rationalized with the "you should think like THIS" or the "since you're interested in THIS, then here's all of OUR language and terms that you should use when you talk about THIS" that ANY recruitment/evangelism is inherrently preaching? I was raised with the "think for yourself" imprint, and that basic assumption has never seemed to mesh with ANY creed/ethos/dogma that I've run across or been "shown" by well-meaning (or not - little practical difference IMO) people that have tried to convert me to their ideology or theology, whatever it might be.
I ran across all this PD shit on my own, I raped it for everything I thought worked, ditched the shit I thought was a waste, combined it with all sorts of other theological bits and pieces that I made similar personal judgements about, and never looked back. It's worked pretty damn well for me over the years, and I always hope that other people do the same with their theologies. To me, a big part of that is to give everyone ALL the possibilities (everyone IMO should read the Bible, the Koran, the Baghavad Gita, the Tibetan book of the Dead, etc. etc. and then see what works for THEM personally, without anyone telling them what they SHOULD be thinking) and then let the "think for yourself, schmuck!" principle work its magic. If nothing else, it makes religion a much more varied, interesting beast.
But that's just me :mrgreen:
Quote from: That One Guy on January 07, 2008, 07:19:25 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 07, 2008, 05:46:04 PM
I am not sure how I feel about all this recruitment.
Me, I'm almost rabidly anti-recruiting, or evangelizing, or anything similar. While I certainly have no ill will to anyone that DOES do such things, I won't be doing it. If someone finds the PD on their own, or stumbles across something that makes them take an interest, then sweet! However, I refuse to attempt to convince anyone that I have a WAYtm that is something that will work for them.
How can "think for yourself, schmuck!" possibly be rationalized with the "you should think like THIS" or the "since you're interested in THIS, then here's all of OUR language and terms that you should use when you talk about THIS" that ANY recruitment/evangelism is inherrently preaching? I was raised with the "think for yourself" imprint, and that basic assumption has never seemed to mesh with ANY creed/ethos/dogma that I've run across or been "shown" by well-meaning (or not - little practical difference IMO) people that have tried to convert me to their ideology or theology, whatever it might be.
I ran across all this PD shit on my own, I raped it for everything I thought worked, ditched the shit I thought was a waste, combined it with all sorts of other theological bits and pieces that I made similar personal judgements about, and never looked back. It's worked pretty damn well for me over the years, and I always hope that other people do the same with their theologies. To me, a big part of that is to give everyone ALL the possibilities (everyone IMO should read the Bible, the Koran, the Baghavad Gita, the Tibetan book of the Dead, etc. etc. and then see what works for THEM personally, without anyone telling them what they SHOULD be thinking) and then let the "think for yourself, schmuck!" principle work its magic. If nothing else, it makes religion a much more varied, interesting beast.
But that's just me :mrgreen:
I agree with everything you said here... though I would point out that 'recruitment' in this sense, isn't so much about recruiting from the Norms/Pinks/Thuddites or converting other Discordians to a specific interpretation... rather its recruiting existing Discordians (and potentials) for active projects(O:MF etc). For that sort of thing, I find recruitment a useful tool.
What about calling it "Let's Get Some More People To Come Here, Because That Would Be Fun"?
It just sounds less militaristic.
Also, I like to lend my friends copies of the PD, if I think they would think it was funny.
Quote from: Nigel on January 07, 2008, 08:07:36 PM
What about calling it "Let's Get Some More People To Come Here, Because That Would Be Fun"?
It just sounds less militaristic.
Also, I like to lend my friends copies of the PD, if I think they would think it was funny.
Because doing anything with Discordians often requires good marketing ;-) "Come hang out at PD.com" gets small response; "Come assist Eris' Children in the rebirth of the Erisian Liberation Front" gets moar.
Advertise, Advertise, Advertise (like from the other thread)
You're still actively attempting to influence other people that your vision/ideals/goals/whatever are more worthy than theirs, and that their actions should be focused to what YOU want to accomplish, no matter what the intention might be.
Also, I detest advertising. Telling people what you think they should do when they otherwise wouldn't do it is something that (while in many, many ways a necessary evil) I just can't support. I can't watch TV because of the ads (it's one of the main reasons I'm a big fan of HBO's shows - no ads breaking up the flow of the story), and I probably will never make any money as a musician because I refuse to "sell" my music or my musical skills (even suckering people into coming to shows feels wrong to me - I'm lucky enough to have a singer who does promotion professionally)..
Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to avoid doing ANY advertising in one form or another, but I do what I can on my own while advertising as little as I possibly can.
But that's just me. I know very few people share this attitude, and in all honesty that's probably a good thing. However, it's an attitude that's at the core of who I am, so I doubt I'll be changing any time soon.
However, that's not to say anyone else shouldn't recruit/advertise. Go nuts! I, however, will not be participating in such things. If I can help further the collective goals in a way that interests me I probably will, but I would rather not do so as part of any (however informal) organization or recruitment.
Quote from: That One Guy on January 07, 2008, 08:41:48 PM
You're still actively attempting to influence other people that your vision/ideals/goals/whatever are more worthy than theirs, and that their actions should be focused to what YOU want to accomplish, no matter what the intention might be.
Also, I detest advertising. Telling people what you think they should do when they otherwise wouldn't do it is something that (while in many, many ways a necessary evil) I just can't support. I can't watch TV because of the ads (it's one of the main reasons I'm a big fan of HBO's shows - no ads breaking up the flow of the story), and I probably will never make any money as a musician because I refuse to "sell" my music or my musical skills (even suckering people into coming to shows feels wrong to me - I'm lucky enough to have a singer who does promotion professionally)..
Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to avoid doing ANY advertising in one form or another, but I do what I can on my own while advertising as little as I possibly can.
But that's just me. I know very few people share this attitude, and in all honesty that's probably a good thing. However, it's an attitude that's at the core of who I am, so I doubt I'll be changing any time soon.
However, that's not to say anyone else shouldn't recruit/advertise. Go nuts! I, however, will not be participating in such things. If I can help further the collective goals in a way that interests me I probably will, but I would rather not do so as part of any (however informal) organization or recruitment.
See, I consider it more like an invite to a huge LARP. We have a game, we need people for the game so we advertise, we make it sound exciting, fun, inviting... then people show up.
At the end of the day, I only have so much pity for people that "fall prey" to advertising, recruiting, etc. If people can't think for themselves, they might as well let me stick random stuff in their heads.... probably less dangerous than what their preacher, sales representative or politician would do given half a chance.
I am currently fluctuating between TOG and Rat. Both of you make really good points and I agree with both of you to an extent.
I guess I like to put the stuff I'm into out there to be found--I'm such a huge fan of the One Sentence Memebomb stickers Cram got me started on (TOG, if you're ever around the CAS business office and grad school area, keep yr eyes peeled in the stair wells! :wink: ) because they make a point, stir up thought... but, for the most part, avoid being preachy or overly aggressive. Without Cram's meddling in my life, I never would've found my way to the PD, but when I did, I was utterly delighted. I think where we want to be is in a position of unlocking a door and pointing out that it's there--"Hey guys, here's this thing you can check out"--and then letting people decided whether or not they want to peer around the frame, stick a head in, or just go ahead and go in all the way (and then whether or not they want to turn around and leave afterwards). Because there's nothing wrong with offering.
I get the feeling that that's the general direction a lot of this was already headed, though.
I came across PD thanks to one of those 23FNORDPinealGland people. I wasn't recruited, but if I were, I wouldn't lose my lucidity the instant someone shoved an advert in front of my eyes. People concerned with recruiting being "wrong" should take into account that a person can still think for themselves and decide to check out what all the fuss about PD is. Except in the most impressionable of people, recruiting does nothing to remove someones ability to think for themselves. They can decide "Nah, this is a waste of my time, I'll try something else". Besides, if PD doesn't get them, someone else will.
Shameless n00b advice.
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 07, 2008, 09:00:17 PM
See, I consider it more like an invite to a huge LARP. We have a game, we need people for the game so we advertise, we make it sound exciting, fun, inviting... then people show up.
At the end of the day, I only have so much pity for people that "fall prey" to advertising, recruiting, etc. If people can't think for themselves, they might as well let me stick random stuff in their heads.... probably less dangerous than what their preacher, sales representative or politician would do given half a chance.
I can run with that angle.
FUCK it. Let's show them THE WAY. Brainwashing, preaching, telling them about the impending DOOM of GRAYNESS. other shenanigans. If some douche christian can try to convert people, why cant we do it? we can do it better and with more class because we have MOAR to offer. We can sit passively as they gain numbers, or we can do some shit about it. If we have to nudge people in the right direction, so be it. If we have to push them with mindfucks or in some other manner... is it evil?
Quote from: Pope Lecherous on January 08, 2008, 12:20:49 AM
FUCK it. Let's show them THE WAY. Brainwashing, preaching, telling them about the impending DOOM of GRAYNESS. other shenanigans. If some douche christian can try to convert people, why cant we do it? we can do it better and with more class because we have MOAR to offer. We can sit passively as they gain numbers, or we can do some shit about it. If we have to nudge people in the right direction, so be it. If we have to push them with mindfucks or in some other manner... is it evil?
Regardless of whether it's evil, evangelism is boring.
No offense to whoever, but taking bits and pieces of religion is why mainstream religion and their followers are soo FUCKED UP. When u halfass anything it usually is fucked up.
For example this "RELIGIOUS" guy i work with used his religion to get out of a work related mandatory fun halloween party. His basis was halloween is the devil and whatnot. Meanwhile, not smoking, not drinking, and not having sex before marriage were the things he deemed were those "pieces" he wouldnt take away. Picking and choosing the pieces that he likes makes him SUPER FUCKING AWESOME... yea my ass.
We dont have clearly established rules guidelines etc. but we can give them what we know and what THEY need in the name of Discordja.
We have the right to go back and change our stance on anything pretty much. Why not preach a little?
Quote from: LMNO on January 07, 2008, 03:14:54 PM
The former seems to be the kind of person ripe for recruiting. So, how do we present ourselves in order to appeal to these people? Maybe the idea is to lure the ground troops in with Lulz, and then slowly reveal to them the Hideous Truths.
That's the most logical method.
Dunno if I can do it, though.
The way I see it, if people don't know about all the options, then they can't really make an informed choice. By letting them know this place exists, we are aiding them in making their own minds up.
Quote from: LMNO on January 07, 2008, 03:14:54 PMSo, I was thinking about what kind of person I was when I heard about the PD, and the kind of person I was now.
The person I was then was idealistic, optimistic, and always looking for a buzz or a good laugh.
The person I am now is more jaded, more "realpolitik", optimistic but cautious, borderline alcoholic with a gallows humor.
by the way, the transition you describe here doesn't sound too attractive.
what would your idealistic optimistic self looking for a buzz or a laugh have said in response to "do you believe there is a true religion? it'll turn you into jaded, realpolitik, cautious borderline alcoholic with a gallows humor" ;-)
Nothing, he'd be too busy getting high and dropping acid.
Then the current me would steal his wallet.
Quote from: Cain on January 08, 2008, 12:47:23 PM
The way I see it, if people don't know about all the options, then they can't really make an informed choice. By letting them know this place exists, we are aiding them in making their own minds up.
Yeah. Which is why I understand the need for at least SOME advertising, no matter how much I detest it. I purposely expose myself to as many different kinds of things as I can run across to get as close to an informed choice as possible, and part of that is helped by advertising. That doesn't mean I like it though :/
Again, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't/can't preach, evangelize, advertise, whatever. I understand the need for it in order to spread information. I just personally have no intention of doing more than the bare minimum of informational advertising, and I always attempt to put as little opinion in what I advertise as possible. Had someone approached me regarding the PD I probably would have approached things totally differently. However, I found it on my own, so I was able to take those parts of it that I thought were important to me, rather than being told what parts other people found important (and by extension thought I should find important).
Even with the Bible, there are different passages that speak to different people. Does that make any one passage better to everyone than another? I would say no, but there are whole sects that exist solely because of that interpretation. If nothing else, I hope that whatever people do to recruit, the ability for the individual to take those parts that affect them personally (regardless of what others think of their choices) should be preserved. That includes the "ZOMG23pinealist" crowd, no matter what we think of that mindframe. They have the right to pick those parts of the PD that speak to them, just like we pick the parts of the PD that speak to us.
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2008, 02:28:41 PM
Nothing, he'd be too busy getting high and dropping acid.
Then the current me would steal his wallet.
really?
if i were to meet my old self i wouldn't rip me off, i'd give me some advice. to start yoga asap, some decisions to make, people to avoid, girls to pay attention to and tell me to not worry about a bunch of things i'd otherwise worry about.
then i'd probably kick my ass and jade me.
and have sex with myself, naturally.
Well, the way we did it with MW and Wicca.com is we rolled up, started acting pretty much like we act here (well, at EB&G), threw in a few rants, and if anyone wanted to know where we came from, we dropped off the URL to them. Personally, I think thats a very fair and honest way of going about it.
Quote from: triple zero on January 08, 2008, 02:49:44 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2008, 02:28:41 PM
Nothing, he'd be too busy getting high and dropping acid.
Then the current me would steal his wallet.
really?
if i were to meet my old self i wouldn't rip me off, i'd give me some advice. to start yoga asap, some decisions to make, people to avoid, girls to pay attention to and tell me to not worry about a bunch of things i'd otherwise worry about.
I hope you know I'm purposefully being incredibly glib, here.
Quote from: Cain on January 08, 2008, 02:53:38 PM
Well, the way we did it with MW and Wicca.com is we rolled up, started acting pretty much like we act here (well, at EB&G), threw in a few rants, and if anyone wanted to know where we came from, we dropped off the URL to them. Personally, I think thats a very fair and honest way of going about it.
I agree Cain. The "show by example" method is the one I use whenever possible myself as it requires the person to be interested of their own volition/choice to seek out more information. Which is probably going to get the best types of recruits regardless - ones that are capable of showing independent thought and acting on that thought/interest.
Quote from: That One Guy on January 08, 2008, 02:47:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 08, 2008, 12:47:23 PM
The way I see it, if people don't know about all the options, then they can't really make an informed choice. By letting them know this place exists, we are aiding them in making their own minds up.
Yeah. Which is why I understand the need for at least SOME advertising, no matter how much I detest it. I purposely expose myself to as many different kinds of things as I can run across to get as close to an informed choice as possible, and part of that is helped by advertising. That doesn't mean I like it though :/
Again, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't/can't preach, evangelize, advertise, whatever. I understand the need for it in order to spread information. I just personally have no intention of doing more than the bare minimum of informational advertising, and I always attempt to put as little opinion in what I advertise as possible. Had someone approached me regarding the PD I probably would have approached things totally differently. However, I found it on my own, so I was able to take those parts of it that I thought were important to me, rather than being told what parts other people found important (and by extension thought I should find important).
Even with the Bible, there are different passages that speak to different people. Does that make any one passage better to everyone than another? I would say no, but there are whole sects that exist solely because of that interpretation. If nothing else, I hope that whatever people do to recruit, the ability for the individual to take those parts that affect them personally (regardless of what others think of their choices) should be preserved. That includes the "ZOMG23pinealist" crowd, no matter what we think of that mindframe. They have the right to pick those parts of the PD that speak to them, just like we pick the parts of the PD that speak to us.
Well, I don't see our current game as interfering with the "ZOMG23pinealist" crowd and whatever interpretation of the PD they prefer. Recruitment, at least, as I understand it for this game, appears to me, as gathering the Children of Eris that are interested in Cyber'mindfuckery and a way to network IRL Cabals for IRL shenanigans. A Cabal may be POEE aligned, BiP aligned, RAW aligned, 23PinealFnord Aligned, Unaligned, DidALine ... that doesn't matter (or at least I hope not). In fact, I don't think any of this particular game is anti-any interpretation of discordianism... my focus, at least is more about getting people to quit arguing of their interpretation of the fucking map and start playing games, ordering and disordering for the greater glory of Our Lady of Discord (or not depending on your choice of metaphor). :lulz:
MySpace Discordians, Pinealists, 23Fnord Spouting ChaoKids, etc etc etc all seem incredibly useful to me... the potential for mayhem increases with every actual body we can attract.
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2008, 03:04:16 PM
Quote from: triple zero on January 08, 2008, 02:49:44 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2008, 02:28:41 PM
Nothing, he'd be too busy getting high and dropping acid.
Then the current me would steal his wallet.
really?
if i were to meet my old self i wouldn't rip me off, i'd give me some advice. to start yoga asap, some decisions to make, people to avoid, girls to pay attention to and tell me to not worry about a bunch of things i'd otherwise worry about.
I hope you know I'm purposefully being incredibly glib, here.
yeah
i just mused over what would happen if i would meet my old me and stealing my wallet was one of the last things that came to mind :) :)
I wouldn't steal my wallet, cause there's never anything worth stealing in it. :cry:
I'd probably punch myself in the face.
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 08, 2008, 03:10:08 PM
MySpace Discordians, Pinealists, 23Fnord Spouting ChaoKids, etc etc etc all seem incredibly useful to me... the potential for mayhem increases with every actual body we can attract.
I concur on this. I don't want to "convert" people, as it were, but I would be interested in building more of a.... network, I guess.
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on January 08, 2008, 03:57:04 PM
I wouldn't steal my wallet, cause there's never anything worth stealing in it. :cry:
I'd probably punch myself in the face.
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 08, 2008, 03:10:08 PM
MySpace Discordians, Pinealists, 23Fnord Spouting ChaoKids, etc etc etc all seem incredibly useful to me... the potential for mayhem increases with every actual body we can attract.
I concur on this. I don't want to "convert" people, as it were, but I would be interested in building more of a.... network, I guess.
That, I think, seems to be the current goal (based on discussion in O:MF thread about FSM)
The spreading of ideas is what we're trying to achieve. This is best done by talking to and exchanging ideas with people who do a lot of that with other people. Talk's cheap. We just need to talk to the right people and see what they think, and whether or not our talks are successful, we'll have inserted the ideas into their subconsciousness, which will stay there forever adn slowly if not quickly spread throughout the collective perception.
In short, let's just talk to as many talkers as possible.
What I wouldn't give to see Rog talk to Larry King.
Last time I brought a Discordian I knew from IRL to this board, she got fed up with the self-contradictory "YUOR DOING IT WRONG N00B" shtick and later deleted her account. Now I'm dating her. Totally unrelated.
My current girlfriend was a Discordian
and had an account on this forum long before I met her. At some point, she introduced one of HER IRL Discordian friends to this place. That girl had more or less the same reaction - after two weeks, not only did she vow to never come back to PD, but also said that she will never again seek out other Discordians. Kind of sad, but that's sometimes the climate here.
Quote from: Felix on January 08, 2008, 06:10:55 PM
What I wouldn't give to see Rog talk to Larry King.
QFT
but did anyone see the Hunter S. Durden interview on Larry King?
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/bin/larryking.jpg)
Alright then, how do we link up this with what was being discussed on the last page of this http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14768.165
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 09, 2008, 03:57:13 PM
My current girlfriend was a Discordian and had an account on this forum long before I met her.
What was her screename?
It was Soy Letchin, IIRC.
Sound like before my time.
It was about 9 months ago, I think.
Oh. I can't remember her.
By the way, does anyone else kind of giggle when a Discordian writes off an entire group of people ("she will never again seek out other Discordians") because of the actions of a small handful (the dozen or so asshats on this board)?
Yes. But I also get annoyed, because we're not exactly swimming in manpower.
yeah I thought it was kind of extreme too, but the point stands. As Ratatosk is fond of pointing out, we make cole slaw out of cabbages. There's no training course for what we consider n00bs, just the standard "Get it right in 50 posts or god help you if you don't GTFO"
Yes, that is kind of a problem. Though Roger's advice to the n00bs (pinned, Apple Talk) is pretty helpful.
How would you suggest making a change?
I'm finding it hard to find the line between "be nicer to people" and "suffer fools gladly".
PS - I can't find Soy Letchin on the memberlist.
Because she deleted her account.
Go back far enough and you'll find guest posts made with that name.
I think a more pro-active approach could be a better thing. I just want ideas on how to approach it.
Quote from: Cain on January 09, 2008, 04:23:36 PM
Yes, that is kind of a problem. Though Roger's advice to the n00bs (pinned, Apple Talk) is pretty helpful.
How would you suggest making a change?
The Top Ten posters, who are largely responsible for the tone and attitude of the forum, need to make a conscious effort be more welcoming and less condescending towards n00bs and certain forms of Discordia.
Devil's Advocate says: But then we'll be up to our armpits with ZOMGPINEAL23 dada bullshit
I reply: then die in stagnation. Instead of crucifying n00bs, illuminate them. But no one's gonna take us seriously because we take OUR shtick so seriously. To some extent, we have made "our form of Discordia"
Sacred and the Principia, RAW, et al
Profane. We escaped from the PINEAL23 cell, and now we're in this one (and its kind of lonely). Now we need to escape from it into a LARGER cell. One large enough to fit
both previous cells in it.
I would tend to agree. If you want to change something, you need to engage with it and interact. While there will be a level of 23dadapinealLOL stuff, I believe it could be kept at a manageable amount, due to the inclinations of the vast base of posters we already have here.
Ah! But ah!
Some of us use the "fuck RAW, fuck the PD" exactly as a way to illuminate the n00bs. "Don't believe anything you read" is supposed to apply to the PD as much as to the Bible.
It's the n00bs who get butthurt when they see their idols attacked.
Quote from: LMNO on January 09, 2008, 04:42:57 PM
Ah! But ah!
Some of us use the "fuck RAW, fuck the PD" exactly as a way to illuminate the n00bs. "Don't believe anything you read" is supposed to apply to the PD as much as to the Bible.
It's the n00bs who get butthurt when they see their idols attacked.
Also a good point. I've used the tactic myself.
However, it may depend on the context in which it is presented. If you just kind of...ignore RAW and the PD, and when they are raised, kind of go "well, yes you could look at it that way, but that was a while ago and information/the social climate has changed" then go on to explain the irrelevance, it would probably go down better than going out of your way to rubbish them when they are mentioned. Consider my 9/11 Truther and Political Satire rants. Doing the latter only confirms their beliefs, in most cases.
As Nietzsche said "One often contradicts an opinion when what is uncongenial is really the tone in which it was conveyed."
Quote from: LMNO on January 09, 2008, 04:42:57 PM
Ah! But ah!
Some of us use the "fuck RAW, fuck the PD" exactly as a way to illuminate the n00bs. "Don't believe anything you read" is supposed to apply to the PD as much as to the Bible.
It's the n00bs who get butthurt when they see their idols attacked.
yeah but sometimes someone wants to discuss Illuminatus! or the PD, and people descend on him like he's an IDIOT for liking it. That doesn't help anybody, it just makes us sound like pricks.
Edited To Add: Chaos Magic too.
I think a big part of the problem is those people that use the "AKK" approach - post obnoxious and/or dada bullshit then use the "I was just trolling/having fun! I didn't really mean it!" line aren't separated from those that really just want to throw some stuff out to a larger discordian audience in order to see the reaction.
While the first group is, unfortunately, all too common (see Z_Man_iz_eer for the most recent example), this board tends to treat everyone like that till they prove otherwise, rather than using the 50 posts to see what specifically the new poster actually wants.
We're smart enough people to figure out in about that many posts which group a given poster falls into, but we tend to automatically throw everyone into the "AKK" group and leave it to them to figure out what WE want them to say, rather than give them 50 posts to say what they want and get a feel for actually posting rather than lurking. I think if we all hold back a little bit more (only a litte - a large % of new posters DO seem to follow the AKK script after all) for the first 50 posts - which means avoiding mentioning the "50 posts rule" as that can make it seem like people have to "prove" something - then we might not run off as many people as it seems we run off.
I always thought the 50 post rule was to see what people would do with the rope they made. Some will, indeed, hang themselves, but some people have made lassos (or cones, as with Nigel for the latest example). I think all we really need to do is take the first 50 posts from new people to attempt to engage them in discussions (actual thoughtful discussions primarily - even better if they start the discussion, but that's definitely something we can actively do as well). Those of the AKK school quickly reveal themselves, and those interested in interacting with us will (probably) stick around.
cool, I think everyone ITT is on more or less the same page here.
If you guys hadn't been a bunch of assholes I would totally have left.
But seriously, I think this is a productive discussion. I think that in order to get newbs to stay we do have to engage them, and not alienate them... by 50 posts, we should have had at least one thoughtful conversation with them about their interests. Instead of ignoring posts by new people, or assuming that they're trying to impress/outweird us, maybe some of us should look at their first posts, figure out what they're saying they're enthusiastic about, and try to pull that out so that it's a real discussion about it instead of a display of peacock tail feathers.
For instance, I'm pretty sure that one of my first posts, about larding, came across very pineal23fnord. But early posts are bound to be awkward... I was thinking, "huh, I don't know these people, usually I just type endless inanities but it seems wrong to introduce myself by joining in the banter since I'm a total stranger. Oh look, here's a section on mind fucks. Larding is a sort of mindfuck... maybe these guys would find it interesting."
That conversation went OK because it turned rapidly to inane banter smattered with mild abuse, which happens to be my comfort zone. Another newbie might have thought "These guys are dissing my pet project and making fun of me, and I don't even know why! What assholes!" and left.
On the other hand, I feel as if this board is a good fit for my personality... and it might not be a good fit for people who get offended and leave. It all depends on what kind of community we want here. Do we want more people and a greater diversity in humor styles, which inevitably leads to people posting shit that other people think is lame? Or do we want a close-knit group who tend to agree on what's lulz and what's lame?
I personally tend to gravitate toward people who are more like me. I suspect everyone does. At the same time, I would prefer less uniformity and less agreement on the board... and the only way to obtain less agreement is to be more agreeable.
Quote
Some of us use the "fuck RAW, fuck the PD" exactly as a way to illuminate the n00bs.
Iconoclasm can work, but if applied with too big a brush, it might seem more like graffiti than anything else (see "ripping up a picture of the Pope on stage"). The Zen Master's "Stick To The Head" can be very beneficial, but only when the student is in a frame of mind that can accept a new imprint (otherwise, they just have a headache). The Master doesn't pull the stick out and start whacking people on the first day, or even the second... only after the student has begun down the path of learning that particular map, does head whacking come into play, the groundwork has been laid, the student is primed for new imprints... Sometimes, it seems like we're less aligned with a Zen Master and more aligned with the instructor teaching "Getting Hit On the Head Lessons" in the Python skit... some Pinealist sticks his head in the door and *SMACK*.
Are we really "illuminating" the n00bs? I'm not sure how I feel about that, I love to use 'enlightenment' in parables, but is the BiP any more enlightened than the PD... are our merry band of misfits more enlightened than those over at 23AE?
Quote
"Don't believe anything you read" is supposed to apply to the PD as much as to the Bible.
Yes, but "Don't believe anything you read" seems to me, like a far different proposition than "Fuck *Insert anything you read here*". I see a difference between a dogmatic belief of something and considering something a good idea or useful tool (Yes, you can make jokes about "useful tool"). That is, while Fnordlings can be annoying... and some can even go as far as to take the PD or RAW as Gospel and Prophet, most of them seem to have simply not widened their repertoire of gags, maps, metaphors and memes (or at least not widened them in the same manner mosbunal of us seem to have). Most of the Pinealists I know don't 'believe' the PD is an actual holy book, or that a flying monkey did really appear in a bowling alley, or that Eris is a really real goddess ('cept some of the pagans, but alas, what can ya do?). They may quote it a lot, they may promote the idealism and optimism (sometimes in a very naive way) found in some of the classic sermons. For the most part, though, the Fnordlings that piss people off here,seem to be the ones that just make the same old jokes about 23 and 5 and Pineal Glands... though that's not to play down the risk of stagnation on their part. Personally, I think this could be considered as an education/scope of experience issue, rather than an issue of blind belief. With rare exception, I have found that most 23 spouting Discordians leap on other opportunities, memes and jokes if it fits with a reality tunnel <i>that they can grok</i>. The eternally optimistic ("I'm OK, You're OK" personality type) may not get the BiP, because the BiP, in my opinion, paints the same territory as the PD, but as a darker, more angst filled map. The current feel of PD.com appears to me as straddling the fence between the traditional sects of Our Lady of Discord in a good way. We have some of the Happy, Hippy Optimism that's usually associated with Erisians, we have some of the jaded joking, somewhat sardonic pragmatism common among the less hippy, more punk Discordians and we have cynicism and fatalism of the best sort that JR "Bob" Dobbs can offer. For many of us, here... we can deal with these multiple maps in multiple colors with multiple interpretations of what the territory looks like. However, for many young Children of Eris (or ones that never happened to spend time in those other models), think about how jarring and weird that might seem... especially if you were introduced to these other maps through getting whacked on the head with them rather than someone rolling it out and saying "Hey, have you seen this and how it complements the other maps?") Maybe that's the thing I feel is missing from our anti-Pineal ways... rather than saying "Fuck the Map you know" maybe we should be saying "Use moar Maps!! They complement each other!"
Before Bob died, his last big meme focus was on Model Agnosticism and Maybe Logic. Maybe Logic seems pretty straightforward, rather than IS/Is Not, we have /Is/Is Not/Maybe(or ? or Mu or whatever the symbols is for 'Don't fuckin know' in your personal lexicon). Model Agnosticism though is a bit more complex. It describes the thought processes of someone who is agnostic to the map being used. A Model Agnostic can (in theory) pop between using the model favored by Religion/Faith based people, using the Pinealist model, the BiP model, the physics models, the model favored by Atheists, the model used by ritual magicians, the Liberal model, the Conservative model and any other philosophical model that the individual can wrap their brain around. I think that Bob would be pretty happy with the group here, because we have started poking other maps... however in being excited about a new map, we (like all the other damned humans) seem prone to dissing the old map... thus compromising the Agnostic stance toward the models. For me, I plan on working on the opposite (that is, I don't find the BiP to be quite as useful a model as the PD... therefore I think I need to stretch my brain some more). Perhaps if we pushed new concepts on n00bs as
expansions, rather than
replacements... it would work better. I don't know.
The SubG's are famous for the line "
If they can't take a joke, fuck 'em." However, in more recent years, Stang has also added another meme, this time directed at SubG's, not Pinks: "If they can't
tell a joke, Fuck 'em." He's ranted a number of times that some people still seem to be getting confused. Some take the joke (the CoN, the Pinks, the Slack) and forget that its a joke... they really think its Us vs. The Pinks. They think that "Bob" (aka being a SubG) is really enlightening... they think that they have escaped the CoN... they think that they Get The Joke... but sadly they've quit laughing and started taking it seriously. Sometimes I wonder if that mindset doesn't shade our views... we can use metaphors all day long about Prisons, Tunnels, Greyfaced Hunchbrains, etc etc... but, at the end of the day, do we see them as jokes, or real and serious? Have we in some sense made the same damned programming error that primates tend to do? Us vs. Them, our Enlightened Tribe of Prisonbreakers vs. their backwards Tribe of Pinealists? I don't know if this metaphor works or not, but its something I thought of last night when I happened on one of Stang's rants.
Warning: This post contains early morning ideas. Ignore if necessary.
Perhaps we should account for the very thing we're trying to convince people to understand in their real lives: unpredictability. N00b behavior is often typical, but if/when they become regulars their real personality becomes more evident. We have to consider that beneath some n00b exteriors there are individuals who will react differently to how we treat them, and we can't know ahead of time what those reactions will be.
Therefore, I propose we triangulate our efforts, so to speak. The "N00b Conversion Chamber" we seem to be gravitating towards should not be a single bottleneck that every newcomer gets forced through. People will instinctively spend more time in the forums that they find entertaining and worthwhile, so let's give them a couple options.
Here are two examples of possible venues for n00bs, just to get ideas moving:
Fnord Central: No, we won't actually have a forum section called "Fnord Central," that would be retarded. But it's a place for dada-lovers and absurdists to goof around and get their fix of Discordia-flavored and Miscellaneous-flavored nonsense and weirdness. Plenty of us like a little dada now and then, so this is where we lasso 'em in and show them that not everything has to have a fnord in it to be funny or cool.
Tinfoil Hat Supply: This would be where we use the image of "The Man" to our advantage. Conspiracy theories, politics in general, and examples of censored news stories are all things that loads of people will gobble up. The Black Iron Prison is another example of what goes here; essentially this is where the seemingly "darker" side of Discordia gets put on display.
In theory, newcomers will get comfortable wherever they darn well feel like it, and with time they will spread out into other regions of the boards once they start to realize that there is more to Discordianism than what they once thought. For example, I came to PD.com believing that trolling was what degenerate asshats did for fun; later on I was a sideliner at the Free Thinker's Forum raid, and I realized that it didn't matter if trolling was for degenerate asshats or not, because it was hilarious.
Quote from: Cainad on January 09, 2008, 06:53:40 PM
Warning: This post contains early morning ideas. Ignore if necessary.
Perhaps we should account for the very thing we're trying to convince people to understand in their real lives: unpredictability. N00b behavior is often typical, but if/when they become regulars their real personality becomes more evident. We have to consider that beneath some n00b exteriors there are individuals who will react differently to how we treat them, and we can't know ahead of time what those reactions will be.
Therefore, I propose we triangulate our efforts, so to speak. The "N00b Conversion Chamber" we seem to be gravitating towards should not be a single bottleneck that every newcomer gets forced through. People will instinctively spend more time in the forums that they find entertaining and worthwhile, so let's give them a couple options.
Here are two examples of possible venues for n00bs, just to get ideas moving:
Fnord Central: No, we won't actually have a forum section called "Fnord Central," that would be retarded. But it's a place for dada-lovers and absurdists to goof around and get their fix of Discordia-flavored and Miscellaneous-flavored nonsense and weirdness. Plenty of us like a little dada now and then, so this is where we lasso 'em in and show them that not everything has to have a fnord in it to be funny or cool.
Tinfoil Hat Supply: This would be where we use the image of "The Man" to our advantage. Conspiracy theories, politics in general, and examples of censored news stories are all things that loads of people will gobble up. The Black Iron Prison is another example of what goes here; essentially this is where the seemingly "darker" side of Discordia gets put on display.
In theory, newcomers will get comfortable wherever they darn well feel like it, and with time they will spread out into other regions of the boards once they start to realize that there is more to Discordianism than what they once thought. For example, I came to PD.com believing that trolling was what degenerate asshats did for fun; later on I was a sideliner at the Free Thinker's Forum raid, and I realized that it didn't matter if trolling was for degenerate asshats or not, because it was hilarious.
"ZOOOoooooom!" goes Cainad's really cool motorcycle!!
(see, Doppler effect...)
Observation: Many pinealists are attention whores; they don't post things about Eris stuffing their underwear with trout because it's self-satisfying, they do it to get a reaction. Usually, they expect that recation to be of the "LOL, you're so outlandish" variety.
So, if anyone is willing to take on the role of "unequivical back-patter", please raise your hand now.
(http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/99/70/23467099.jpg)
Quote from: LMNO on January 09, 2008, 07:18:15 PM
Observation: Many pinealists are attention whores; they don't post things about Eris stuffing their underwear with trout because it's self-satisfying, they do it to get a reaction. Usually, they expect that recation to be of the "LOL, you're so outlandish" variety.
So, if anyone is willing to take on the role of "unequivical back-patter", please raise your hand now.
(http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/99/70/23467099.jpg)
Well, I'm gonna disagree LMNO. Mosbunal people in the Internets seem to be attention whores to sombunal other people... hell, I imagine a lot of the victims of HIMEOBS think that the weirdos that crashed their server were attention whores. Further, I don't think we must provide them with the reaction they expect, I'm only advocating that we don't necessarily continue with our current reaction standards which usually involve thwacking people on the head. Surely there exists some options between a pat on the back and a thwap to the head!
Wouldn't attention (positive or negative) in such a case be enabling behaviour anyway?
Well, we can always ignore them until they say something interesting...
But, much like a 6-year-old when you ignore them, they tend to ramp up the annoyance until they get a reaction.
Also, i didn't say that the rest of us weren't attention whores, I just pointed out that people who post "bizarre" stuff do so to be recognized for it.
I am suggesting finding the interesting in what they post, pulling it out, and addressing it seriously in the hope of spawning an interesting dialogue.
Quote from: Nigel on January 09, 2008, 08:17:12 PM
I am suggesting finding the interesting in what they post, pulling it out, and addressing it seriously in the hope of spawning an interesting dialogue.
Nicely put.
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 09, 2008, 08:23:34 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 09, 2008, 08:17:12 PM
I am suggesting finding the interesting in what they post, pulling it out, and addressing it seriously in the hope of spawning an interesting dialogue.
Nicely put.
Alright, you've both been hired as the welcome wagon. Your job is to help the n00bs acclimate.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 09, 2008, 04:48:23 PM
yeah but sometimes someone wants to discuss Illuminatus! or the PD, and people descend on him like he's an IDIOT for liking it. That doesn't help anybody, it just makes us sound like pricks.
Edited To Add: Chaos Magic too.
I agree with just about everything you've said on the subject, however...
I will continue to mercilessly mock anyone who says anything which implies that they take "chaos mhadjickque" seriously.
You could always direct such people to the few decent topics we've had on the subject. I handily compiled 2 from POEE and EB&G into a interesting little dialogue here (http://episkoposcain.blogspot.com/2007/11/magickal-debates.html) and it may give them something to think about. After that, they probably deserve to be mocked, however.
Quote from: LMNO on January 09, 2008, 08:24:43 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 09, 2008, 08:23:34 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 09, 2008, 08:17:12 PM
I am suggesting finding the interesting in what they post, pulling it out, and addressing it seriously in the hope of spawning an interesting dialogue.
Nicely put.
Alright, you've both been hired as the welcome wagon. Your job is to help the n00bs acclimate.
This will be interesting.
Quote from: Cain on January 09, 2008, 10:20:27 PM
You could always direct such people to the few decent topics we've had on the subject. I handily compiled 2 from POEE and EB&G into a interesting little dialogue here (http://episkoposcain.blogspot.com/2007/11/magickal-debates.html) and it may give them something to think about. After that, they probably deserve to be mocked, however.
I hate to be wasteful. I think it's more efficient to mock them right off the bat.
Quote from: LMNO on January 09, 2008, 08:24:43 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 09, 2008, 08:23:34 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 09, 2008, 08:17:12 PM
I am suggesting finding the interesting in what they post, pulling it out, and addressing it seriously in the hope of spawning an interesting dialogue.
Nicely put.
Alright, you've both been hired as the welcome wagon. Your job is to help the n00bs acclimate.
I'll help too.
Quote from: Nigel on January 09, 2008, 10:24:56 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 09, 2008, 08:24:43 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 09, 2008, 08:23:34 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 09, 2008, 08:17:12 PM
I am suggesting finding the interesting in what they post, pulling it out, and addressing it seriously in the hope of spawning an interesting dialogue.
Nicely put.
Alright, you've both been hired as the welcome wagon. Your job is to help the n00bs acclimate.
This will be interesting.
YeeHaw! We'll hitch up up the chickens and load up on the victuals., we gots us some wagonin' and welcomin' to do!
(http://www.theinvisiblecollege.com/images/welcome.png)
Quote from: LMNO on January 09, 2008, 04:42:57 PM
Ah! But ah!
Some of us use the "fuck RAW, fuck the PD" exactly as a way to illuminate the n00bs. "Don't believe anything you read" is supposed to apply to the PD as much as to the Bible.
It's the n00bs who get butthurt when they see their idols attacked.
well what i sometimes have noticed is like this:
- n00b says something about the PD, slightly too much pineal dada or about chaos magic
- somebody kindly points out that chaos magic is bullshit or some such
- n00b naturally defends her/himself, often badly, or with arguments that have been refuted a 1000 times before
- a number of different people (often no more than 2 or 3 at a time, but still) pile on the abuse, with cheap shots
i fully admit i have been guilty to this behaviour from time to time myself as well
i guess there's always *somebody* around with enough of a bad mood to hit on the n00bs? :)
while indeed, what cram said, sometimes somebody just wants to discuss it.
and what's more, possibly for a lot of us, discussion the PD has not a lot of merit anymore, but i think we still have a bunch of people that aren't quite jaded with it yet. how about the people that think it's boring ignore the boring bits, and the recent members talk with the n00bs about the PD?
the only thing is, sometimes the PD-discussing/pinealfnords/kaosmajiq turns into a new-age "can't we all be friends/nothing is true/reality/savethedolphins/setfreethebuffalos" hippiefest new age bullshitness. in that case,
show no mercy.
problem is: 85% of noobs are carbon copies of each other. to them, they are all strong individuals. to us, it's hard not to see them as a single person who keeps coming back. each noob tends to receive harsher treatment than the previous one, especially when there's a week or two where it's nothing but new people.
but this argument about whether we're too harsh toward noobs in general is less important to me all the time. it is materially refuted by the fact that there once in a while there is a noob who comes in here and never once encounters any bullshit and is almost immediately accepted.
do we strain out some content with our pro-active approach to deterring bullshit? maybe. is it worth it, considering that this forum has been worth coming to for at least the past 2 years? yes. it's worth it.
so sorry, innocent victims.
Or think of it this way. AKK, Lamanite, MOC, etc., could all still be here. Seems to me, even if you do weed out the occassional person who would've contributed (woulda, coulda, shoulda, etc.) it's worth it to be rid of the aforementioned distractions. Cause seriously, when the AKK shit was flying, this place kinda sucked.
Quote from: vexati0n on January 10, 2008, 06:38:41 PM
problem is: 85% of noobs are carbon copies of each other. to them, they are all strong individuals. to us, it's hard not to see them as a single person who keeps coming back. each noob tends to receive harsher treatment than the previous one, especially when there's a week or two where it's nothing but new people.
but this argument about whether we're too harsh toward noobs in general is less important to me all the time. it is materially refuted by the fact that there once in a while there is a noob who comes in here and never once encounters any bullshit and is almost immediately accepted.
do we strain out some content with our pro-active approach to deterring bullshit? maybe. is it worth it, considering that this forum has been worth coming to for at least the past 2 years? yes. it's worth it.
so sorry, innocent victims.
i also agree with this.
although it's a bit elitary.
but meh
also, Nigel's idea about actively engaging the n00bs and see if they got something interesting to say sounds like a very fun plan. i'll join the welcome wagon, if you don't mind.
Not to sound harsh, 000, but I don't really see you welcoming n00bs with open arms,
truth is, when one of the Ye Oldes actually engage a N00b, the rest seem to back off a bit.
Unless they're a schmuck. Which the sometimes (often) are.
So, DIY, lead by example, et al.
Quote from: LMNO on January 10, 2008, 08:00:59 PM
Not to sound harsh, 000, but I don't really see you welcoming n00bs with open arms,
but i can try, right?
i can be really nice if i want to.
"hello mr n00b, please tell us in 23 words or less how your pineal gland smells today."
if they ignore, or make a snide remark at THAT they pass the test immediately.
otherwise we move onto another thing.
The point is to make this place easier to n00bs to engage in, in the hope of drawing them into the network project. To be quite frank, so long as they are not insanely annoying and disruptive to that goal (a la AKK) then I see no real problem. We get them to hang around for a bit, introduce them to the principles of the network idea, then if they still want to help but don't seem quite suited to the climate of this place, we can suggest other places (23ae, Myspazz, POEE etc), tell them to not be a stranger now and occasionally keep in touch.
That's the way the network spreads, organically.
We then throw in the other method of trying to create a network via previously described methods and we have something approaching a working strategy for organization.
but, this board is more than "the network project", IMO.
they should also learn about vocoders, for instance.
NO VOCODER
:argh!:
a while ago, in my country there was a discussion about the "educational canon" or something.
the bit that all people (kids) have to learn as minimal knowledge when they go to school. mostly which bits of history to teach them and which to leave out (cause you can't possibly teach all of history, as there's slightly too much of it).
maybe it's a good plan to think of a discordian/pd.com canon, which n00bs should be able to "get".
not so much as dogma or anything, but actually genuinely useful things. stuff that they probably don't know yet, but would most probably really enjoy reading and/or thinking about.
so, a list?
- the network project
- the black iron prison
- the barstool experiment
- why 23 pineal fnord stuff was funny in the 60/70s but not anymore
- vocoders
- etc
That's a great topic for a sticky thread
"The Story So Far...."
Each post would be an essay or brief description on one of the above topics. In short, an abstract of our "recommended reading" list
Hm....
my first post on PD requested that everyone get me up to speed by summing up the entire forum and its history in one word or less. Someone replied "Toolbox".
Isn't that sufficient?
I was going to touch on this in another thread.
But my idea will involve a fair bit of work, and we've already got plenty on our plate, so I was going to wait a while before I said anything.
To sort of dovetail with the item about 23Pineal.
I think it may be useful to while discourage or talk about how that old stuff isn't funny, we don't want to discourage funny. Funny and humor is very important, in my estimation. I'm not sure how we go about that but just want to point out that it's important and stuff.
and since my ability to really meaningfully contribute to anything is limited, the above is something I want to sort of carry further this upcoming year. So, I will be contributing something in due time, I need to do some research, soul searching, seltzer bottles, etc.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 10, 2008, 06:44:08 PM
Or think of it this way. AKK, Lamanite, MOC, etc., could all still be here. Seems to me, even if you do weed out the occassional person who would've contributed (woulda, coulda, shoulda, etc.) it's worth it to be rid of the aforementioned distractions. Cause seriously, when the AKK shit was flying, this place kinda sucked.
Well, maybe... but surely there's a difference between thwacking the n00b (or the Pinealist) and getting rid of actual jackasses isn't there?
I was bored at a meeting the other day, and I scrawled "Absurdity as a tactic" in the margin of my notebook.
That is to say, we've been looking at the PD and trying to pull the ideas out of it that are useful.
Skepticism, model agnosticism, reality filters, (an)eristic illusion, and confirmation bias seem to be the core ideas.
People have been trying to update the "nonsense as salvation" bit for a while, without much success. Then I thought: The PD is an Object-Lesson, not a guidebook. The use of absurdity is a strategy to shoehorn the core ideas into someone's brain.
So one of the reasons I think some of us have no patience for the old PD jokes, or n00bish meaningless dada bullshit is twofold:
1. The old PD jokes are no longer absurd, as they are familiar
2. The dada bullshit is a carrier with no content.
So the use of humor and nonsense and non-linearity is by no means verboten. And comedy without reason or meaning is still funny. But to say that absurdity is inherently Discordian is only half true.
Absurdity is the Astroglide the Discordian uses to sodomize your brain.
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 10, 2008, 10:24:31 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 10, 2008, 06:44:08 PM
Or think of it this way. AKK, Lamanite, MOC, etc., could all still be here. Seems to me, even if you do weed out the occassional person who would've contributed (woulda, coulda, shoulda, etc.) it's worth it to be rid of the aforementioned distractions. Cause seriously, when the AKK shit was flying, this place kinda sucked.
Well, maybe... but surely there's a difference between thwacking the n00b (or the Pinealist) and getting rid of actual jackasses isn't there?
Of course. And I think in large part, at least in my experience, that happens. I think even though someone might groan when a n00b comes in with their Fnords and Flax, I think overall there is a different treatment of those types compared to the AKKs and MOCs of the intertubes. But let's face it, we're not a bunch of hand holders here. If the n00b has a thin skin, they probably won't stick around for long. But that's not our issue, in my opinion.
AKK actually wasn't a Pinealist. He was as annoying as one on crack, but that means nothing, so is David Cameron.
As for absurdity, it should be remembered even Dada was noticeably against something (though the fact it wasn't for anything is often considered one of its key failures).
Compare http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dada_Manifesto_%281916%2C_Hugo_Ball%29 with some of what is attempted Dada on here. The manifesto is much superior to most of it.
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2008, 02:23:47 PM
AKK actually wasn't a Pinealist. He was as annoying as one on crack, but that means nothing, so is David Cameron.
As for absurdity, it should be remembered even Dada was noticeably against something (though the fact it wasn't for anything is often considered one of its key failures).
Compare http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dada_Manifesto_%281916%2C_Hugo_Ball%29 with some of what is attempted Dada on here. The manifesto is much superior to most of it.
I agree. The political origins and intents of Dada have become more interesting to me than the art.
But it's the art that got me interested in the first place.
Similarly, I laughed at the PD the first time I read it.
Only later, I really started thinking about it.
Yes, but Dada art was actually good. Even divorced from knowledge about its history and aims, its still aesthetically pleasing. The PD, too, looked like it had someone go through and edit it, it was coherent in its irrationality (in fact, it was very much like later Chaos Theory, internally it was a mess, but if you took it as a whole, it had definite limits and boundaries in terms of content and message).
Most people just aren't trying hard enough.
Quote from: LMNO on January 11, 2008, 01:51:32 PM
So one of the reasons I think some of us have no patience for the old PD jokes, or n00bish meaningless dada bullshit is twofold:
1. The old PD jokes are no longer absurd, as they are familiar
2. The dada bullshit is a carrier with no content.
So the use of humor and nonsense and non-linearity is by no means verboten. And comedy without reason or meaning is still funny. But to say that absurdity is inherently Discordian is only half true.
Absurdity is the Astroglide the Discordian uses to sodomize your brain.
I think I agree with you overall, but I disagree about point 2 - that the dada bullshit has no content. It has little to no content
in itself, but I think it elevates / saturates the "content / meaning" around it.
I recall that the pattern-recognizer employed at Cramulus' Brain Inc nearly shorted out after trying to make sense of the absurdity in the PD. One thing I payed special close attention to was the one-liners in the margins "Mr. Momomoto" and the King Kong Cabal and Niels Bohr all that jazz. And in trying to connect all those ideas, I connected them to some of the more meaningful bits. It caused me to think critically about which bits were important and which bits were fluff. And how arbitrary that is.
The danger to me, it seems, is when the absurdity overwhelms the content. A lot of Discordian websites and texts out there have such high levels of nonsense that my brain goes, "okay this doesn't mean anything" and my meaning-maker shuts down. Once I smell a shaggy dog joke I generally just skip to the punch-line.
Somewhere else on this forum we talked about RAW's "buffer overload" technique, of listing a bunch of really absurd stuff, and at the crescendo where your mind is shorting out from trying to correlate it, you throw in one really shiny blip of truth, and it makes the whole page explode at once. I think that's a really useful absurdity-technique which I thought was worth mentioning.
OK, makes sense. You short circuit someone's 'rational' (third circuit rationalization, not true/actual rationality) reasons for not believing in/ignoring something and hit them with a hefty dollop of Troof once the state is achieved.
This could also be done with different emotions, could it not? If we're using the irrationality of the brain against itself, emotions of all sorts would be the obvious target to aim for.
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2008, 03:02:51 PM
OK, makes sense. You short circuit someone's 'rational' (third circuit rationalization, not true/actual rationality) reasons for not believing in/ignoring something and hit them with a hefty dollop of Troof once the state is achieved.
This could also be done with different emotions, could it not? If we're using the irrationality of the brain against itself, emotions of all sorts would be the obvious target to aim for.
Well, with Bob's experiments, the key seems to have been shock (no matter how its achieved), consider the sex scenes in Illuminatus!, or the Rehnquist in Schrodinger's Cat. In Masks of The Illuminati, he has some great examples of attacking someone's first circuit. There are examples of Bob attacking the reader via the way he laid out the story (bouncing between Einstein/Rational POV, Joyce/Absurd POV, Crowley/Trickster POV etc.) and of Crowley attacking the first circuit of Sir John Babcock through scaring the shit out of him at every opportunity.
So I think you're right, Cain, shocking or tricking a sufficiently embedded (believed/ingrained/brainwashed/etc) existing program may provide an opportunity to inject a new idea.
Although....there is going to be a problem with diminishing returns, with certain target audiences.
While no doubt your average Baptist type is going to be very easily shocked (embed an Illuminatus! sex scene in the middle of a sermon on a flyer, for example, then hit them with a Bible quote at the end which might change their mind about certain things) your average, jaded, savvy and cynical 17-40 demographic are going to be much harder to deal with.
Trying to brute force such people might not work. They've probably already seen a lot, thanks to slick marketing schemes that do the same thing. In such cases, I think, it may need to be a subtle blend of very strange with the ordinary, along with a touch of the unknown or mystery. Otherwise its just a descent into ever increasing shock tactics which will end up being possibly counterproductive, as well as hard to maintain.
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 10, 2008, 05:39:20 PM
(http://www.theinvisiblecollege.com/images/welcome.png)
Haha this is awesome!
I think your services were requested in the PD sub-forum.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 11, 2008, 02:52:45 PM
I think I agree with you overall, but I disagree about point 2 - that the dada bullshit has no content. It has little to no content in itself, but I think it elevates / saturates the "content / meaning" around it.
I recall that the pattern-recognizer employed at Cramulus' Brain Inc nearly shorted out after trying to make sense of the absurdity in the PD. One thing I payed special close attention to was the one-liners in the margins "Mr. Momomoto" and the King Kong Cabal and Niels Bohr all that jazz. And in trying to connect all those ideas, I connected them to some of the more meaningful bits. It caused me to think critically about which bits were important and which bits were fluff. And how arbitrary that is.
The danger to me, it seems, is when the absurdity overwhelms the content. A lot of Discordian websites and texts out there have such high levels of nonsense that my brain goes, "okay this doesn't mean anything" and my meaning-maker shuts down. Once I smell a shaggy dog joke I generally just skip to the punch-line.
Somewhere else on this forum we talked about RAW's "buffer overload" technique, of listing a bunch of really absurd stuff, and at the crescendo where your mind is shorting out from trying to correlate it, you throw in one really shiny blip of truth, and it makes the whole page explode at once. I think that's a really useful absurdity-technique which I thought was worth mentioning.
I think the above is important.
Absurdity is a tool that can leave your brain wide open if it's used right... it forces your brain to think in a new way, which instantly shocks it wide-awake and heightens its ability to recognize new patterns. Of course, stuff is only really absurd the first time, which is why those of us to whom the PD is familiar no longer respond with wide-openness to the 23 pineal fnord stuff. But the newbies either haven't got to the point where it's familiar yet, so it's still working for them, or they're asshats who think it's an endlessly reusable formula that makes them cool. Our project is to sort out which is which, because if they come in here spouting 23pinealfnord stuff, it's possible that
it's still working for them, which means they are wide open and ready to learn if we can get through their PD-euphoria.
(http://www.discoflux.com/images/applegun.png)
Noice. You should do a golden version of the apple, with two rifles behind it, in a cross. Maybe surrounded by a pentagon?
Quote from: vexati0n on January 11, 2008, 07:10:21 PM
(http://www.discoflux.com/images/applegun.png)
Black and Angst Filled :mittens: for Vex
i fail at making good pentagons.
(http://www.discoflux.com/images/appleguns.png)
Also,
(http://www.discoflux.com/images/ag-simple.png)
i will shamelessly turn this thread into my graphic design resume'.
(http://www.discoflux.com/images/ag-declaration1.jpg)
I havnt read the whole thread yet, so if I just recycle whats been said then :|
I think you can make alot of impact on people if your like a walking enigma. If you look and act like a normal person, but actually have a whole waredrobe of unmentionable vices/ideas/funny humour people seem, from my experience to have alot more willingness to join in because, well, they dont feel like they have to join a certain scene by looking/acting a certain way. I have so many what might be called secrets that I dont reveal to some, but to others I will happily reveal others.
A few years ago I use to dress well emo, before that well goth, before that total wigga hip hoper, before that a total geek loser (and other styles inbetween shifts). Now that I just dont really bother to make an effect to look like im signaling im different to everyone or that I belong to a particular scene, I can get people to, for example, sit with me and listen to a whole myriad of musical genres and get them interested and they dont seem to feel tense or nervous like im recruiting them to a scene. I thinks its important to show them they can still expose themselves to alot of information (music in this case), and not become products of it by looking or acting certain ways.
If I meet someone new I will normally go pineal (but not constantly all day to them so they get annoyed) too get the laughs going and loosen them up. I dont act like a mastermind (I dont think so anyway) but will attempt to answer, even if only briefly, difficult issues (such as philosophy) as well to show that I do have a working brain and im not a total idiot. If I show them that im very willing to literally ATTEMPT anything knowledge, humour, actions etc it has had great effects in getting others to join in because I can act as the initiator - alot of the time it seems thats all people need, a cue to talk or act about what they havnt previously had the chance to, but have always desired even if in a small way. I think thats important to show people thats its ok to attempt to try there luck at intelligence, humour, etc and its ok to be wrong and not to fear that.
I like exposing people to stuff outside of there reality tunnels for the fun of it. And alot of the time it ends up fun, or ends up in deep discussions.
Quote from: vexati0n on January 12, 2008, 06:06:32 AM
i will shamelessly turn this thread into my graphic design resume'.
(http://www.discoflux.com/images/ag-declaration1.jpg)
That's so beautiful I may cry.
So do we need a topic on the forum that is obvious for recruits? Maybe with stickied essays etc?
Quote from: vexati0n on January 12, 2008, 06:06:32 AM
i will shamelessly turn this thread into my graphic design resume'.
(http://www.discoflux.com/images/ag-declaration1.jpg)
So much awesome...
Quote from: vexati0n on January 12, 2008, 06:06:32 AM
i will shamelessly turn this thread into my graphic design resume'.
(http://www.discoflux.com/images/ag-declaration1.jpg)
Full of win.
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 11, 2008, 03:56:20 PMWell, with Bob's experiments, the key seems to have been shock (no matter how its achieved), consider the sex scenes in Illuminatus!, or the Rehnquist in Schrodinger's Cat. In Masks of The Illuminati, he has some great examples of attacking someone's first circuit. There are examples of Bob attacking the reader via the way he laid out the story (bouncing between Einstein/Rational POV, Joyce/Absurd POV, Crowley/Trickster POV etc.) and of Crowley attacking the first circuit of Sir John Babcock through scaring the shit out of him at every opportunity.
So I think you're right, Cain, shocking or tricking a sufficiently embedded (believed/ingrained/brainwashed/etc) existing program may provide an opportunity to inject a new idea.
ok maybe i'm strange, but. i thought the sex scenes in I3 werent shocking at all. they were kinky, and some of them were even arousing.
then (and this happens more in schroedingers cat, right) bouncing between einstein/rational, joyce/absurd and crowley/trickster. what effect should this have had at me? i was just coming off the rational POV when i read these things, i read it and i wondered "dunno if he's really right, or if these are in fact the latest theories", the joyce/absurd i think although i never read any joyce i've been familiar with all my life, it's in my nature and the crowley/trickster stuff was major interesting cause that was the stuff i was looking actively into in that period of my life.
was this supposed to overload me in some way? cause all it did was 1) skeptic 2) amusement/familiarity and 3) interest/curiosity
no mix, no collision, just, yeah, like a balanced salad of ideas?
Well, you have to take account cultural shift, and that you live in a country where window shopping can become a pornographic experience, at least for Illuminatus!.
Quote from: Cain on January 13, 2008, 12:21:39 AM
Well, you have to take account cultural shift, and that you live in a country where window shopping can become a pornographic experience, at least for Illuminatus!.
well let that be a lesson to all those who want to come to dutchland: you're gonna be too jaded and miss out on all the mindfuckery.
pfffrt.
:)
Quote from: triple zero on January 13, 2008, 03:08:08 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 13, 2008, 12:21:39 AM
Well, you have to take account cultural shift, and that you live in a country where window shopping can become a pornographic experience, at least for Illuminatus!.
well let that be a lesson to all those who want to come to dutchland: you're gonna be too jaded and miss out on all the mindfuckery.
pfffrt.
:)
Or a lesson that we need to consider the social programming of the audience when creating our own mindfucks ;-)
Count me in on the I3 not really "overloading" my brain.
If you want to get a new idea into my head, what usually works is telling me the new idea with credible support to your point.
Quote from: LMNO on January 14, 2008, 02:45:08 PM
Count me in on the I3 not really "overloading" my brain.
If you want to get a new idea into my head, what usually works is telling me the new idea with credible support to your point.
LOL thats debate and reasoning, not brain hacking.
Also, I've come to the opinion that I! does a great job of pulling people out of some kinds of reality tunnels, particularly ones that involve a strong Christian background. When I read I! I was shocked by the sex... I was more shocked by the writing style, but my previous reality tunnel had been somewhat innocent of sex.
I gotta admit, as much as I slag on it now, Illuminatus! really blew open my brain gaskets the first time I read it.
well it did *something* to me
first of course i was seeing 23s and eyes and pyramids EVERYwhere
it also happened to be a collection of a zillion stuff and things i had been researching on my own, and then some more i didnt know of. which totally weirded me out, as if someone had been reading my mind and private thoughts (of course the real reason was the other way around)
and the fact that there were apparently more people heaping all these subjects together, caused me to find this nice little community here. otherwise my interest in discordianism would have never been resparked and i wouldn't have googles "discordian forum".
oh and also, since i wondered which parts of the conspiracy story were true and which were fiction, i picked one fact to check semi-random, which happened to be the tarot references and so i bought a tarot deck and started reading about it.
that's what the I3 did for me.
not so much the shocking sex scenes (really, the dutch literature kids are supposed to read in their highschool final year is a lot worse), but a mindfuck nonetheless.
So the blend of what seemed like real information and disinformation....interesting.
Anyway, the next step would be to catalogue all sites where there are multiple Discordians, as well as individual bloggers. Obviously I can think of 6 or 7 of these sites off the top of my head. The step after that is to either infiltrate, or make assess. The latter being an option only when the former is impossible. Then, after a short time, just long enough for you to be accepted while having shook the place up a bit, make your pitch.
Well, this idea is fucking dead.
I knew all that work would be for nothing. Thanks a lot guys, you really helped out there!
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 04:05:14 PM
Well, this idea is fucking dead.
I knew all that work would be for nothing. Thanks a lot guys, you really helped out there!
:troll:
So quit working so fucking hard, god damn it.
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 04:05:14 PM
Well, this idea is fucking dead.
I knew all that work would be for nothing. Thanks a lot guys, you really helped out there!
What idea is dead?
http://dolphin.esosoft.net/erisbarandgrill.com/forum/index.php - Eris Bar and Grill
http://www.poee.co.uk/boards/ - POEE UK
http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.com/ - Discordian blogger, routinely gets several replies per entry
http://singlenesia.com/news/ - Discordian New Network
http://www.thebeak.org/ - Discordian/political blog/online zine
http://tcsf.blogdrive.com/ - Subgenii/Discordian blogger, several readers
http://uncannilyobvious.blogspot.com/ - same as above
http://deoxy.org/index.htm - possible recruitment area
http://groups.myspace.com/eris - probably 20+ active members
http://groups.myspace.com/discordianism - as above
http://groups.myspace.com/santarchists - possible recruitment ground
http://groups.myspace.com/discordians - fewer members than the others, but still 200 profiles on the member roll
http://standrews.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204727328 (link probably wont work, put Discordian in the search engine on site) - Largest Discordian group on Facebook, roughly 1500 members.
32 other groups on Facebook, at least 10 of which have 80 odd members.
http://www.colboard.com/ and the 100,000 for Stephen Colbert group on Facebook
http://www.venganza.org/forum/index.php Yes, they're fuckwits, but...
And that's just a cursory look through my links.
Quote from: Cainad on January 15, 2008, 04:18:20 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 04:05:14 PM
Well, this idea is fucking dead.
I knew all that work would be for nothing. Thanks a lot guys, you really helped out there!
:troll:
So quit working so fucking hard, god damn it.
Or you guys who all
said you were interested could try pulling your goddamn weight at some point, instead of jacking off.
QuoteWhat idea is dead?
The idea that we try and recruit people into some sort of loose, interconnected network for online and offline mindfucks, jakes , misinformation etc I mean, since apparently no-one else is interested in doing any work for it.
I fucked off, as requested
You're right. We should all just turn our internets off and spend the rest of our lives thinking about how Cain got eaten by a Black Swan, and never seemed to notice.
No, Cram you misinterpreted my words when I said you should fuckoff from that argument because you were distorting what I was saying. I never said to fuck off from this, but obviously you cared so much about the results to do just that.
See what I mean? Why should I put in any effort, ever again? Even right now, with a dozen links up which you could be discussing, you prefer to have a go at me.
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 04:28:58 PM
http://dolphin.esosoft.net/erisbarandgrill.com/forum/index.php - Eris Bar and Grill
http://www.poee.co.uk/boards/ - POEE UK
http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.com/ - Discordian blogger, routinely gets several replies per entry
http://singlenesia.com/news/ - Discordian New Network
http://www.thebeak.org/ - Discordian/political blog/online zine
http://tcsf.blogdrive.com/ - Subgenii/Discordian blogger, several readers
http://uncannilyobvious.blogspot.com/ - same as above
http://deoxy.org/index.htm - possible recruitment area
http://groups.myspace.com/eris - probably 20+ active members
http://groups.myspace.com/discordianism - as above
http://groups.myspace.com/santarchists - possible recruitment ground
http://groups.myspace.com/discordians - fewer members than the others, but still 200 profiles on the member roll
http://standrews.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204727328 (link probably wont work, put Discordian in the search engine on site) - Largest Discordian group on Facebook, roughly 1500 members.
32 other groups on Facebook, at least 10 of which have 80 odd members.
http://www.colboard.com/ and the 100,000 for Stephen Colbert group on Facebook
http://www.venganza.org/forum/index.php Yes, they're fuckwits, but...
And that's just a cursory look through my links.
Good start., also:
http://www.23ae.com (obviously)
http://www.maybelogic.net (also, obvious)
LJ groups:
There will be some crossover, but this should pick up a few bites.
http://community.livejournal.com/chosenbyeris/
http://community.livejournal.com/_sacred_chao_/
http://community.livejournal.com/discord_society/
http://community.livejournal.com/eris_activists/
http://community.livejournal.com/eristicmystics/
http://community.livejournal.com/irr_refugeecamp/
http://community.livejournal.com/the_23_club/
Sjaantze already has a pretty large group of Myspace Discordian friends, so we can use her as an ally. I can hit all of these... I'm thinking a few different posts though, to accent on whatever aspects of Discordianism seem most apparent there (23 vs sacred chao for example).
Of course, before we blitz, we should have a location to send them to and stuff for them to read...
ECH, WE CAN HAZ 4UM?
Yes, we'd need to debate our approach and tailor it to the groups in question. But having them up now allows for that groundwork to be done more effectively, I think. Getting a feel for each community will allow us to tailor our efforts, working to the crowd in question instead of some nebulous goals.
Yeah, I have to say I feel kind of lost when attempting to "recruit".
I read the literature you suggested, but that's pretty much theory to me.
Do I go in all "BIP, motherfuckers!" or do I pretend to be a pinealist, or troll them, or play the recruiter from the get-go?
Quote from: Cain on January 14, 2008, 07:07:32 PM
So the blend of what seemed like real information and disinformation....interesting.
Anyway, the next step would be to catalogue all sites where there are multiple Discordians, as well as individual bloggers. Obviously I can think of 6 or 7 of these sites off the top of my head. The step after that is to either infiltrate, or assess. The latter being an option only when the former is impossible. Then, after a short time, just long enough for you to be accepted while having shook the place up a bit, make your pitch.
okidoki.
I'll do what I can.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on January 15, 2008, 04:41:02 PM
I fucked off, as requested
Prof, I will smack you with a halibut if you start playing drama. There is far too much ordering and disordering to do right now for any of us to quit playing the game due to random comments on an Internet forum. If someone tells you to fuck off.. laugh and get back in the game. fortunately for us, we have neither coach nor manager to tell us we can't play and have to warm the benches. Get off the bench, get in the game, or else I WILL KILL A MOTHERFUCKER.
Now look at what you made me do.
Quote from: LMNO on January 15, 2008, 04:53:21 PM
Yeah, I have to say I feel kind of lost when attempting to "recruit".
I read the literature you suggested, but that's pretty much theory to me.
Do I go in all "BIP, motherfuckers!" or do I pretend to be a pinealist, or troll them, or play the recruiter from the get-go?
Hrmmm, I think this may have to be lesson 1. In short, I got 23 years or so of training on recruitment by some of the best (JW's are a fast growing cult).
A good speaker/debator/lecturer/recruiter speaks on the level of his audience. If we're aiming at doctors, then we better have the right language, illustrations, metaphors and presence as to gain their respect, or control of their brain. To the Pinealist, become a Pinealist. If you go to the Pinealist, who is minding his own business, tripping along merrily in his own game... and hit him with a club saying "YUO R TEH ST00PID, BiP MUTHAFUCKA"... he's more likely to resent you than listen to you. Go to him with 23's and 5's and pineal glands... then, once you're speaking the same language slowly inject new ideas, new concepts, other metaphors. Link Old Discordia with New Discordia, for it is all the same to Her. If you aren't capable of embracing WHATEVER METAPHOR is most useful for the moment, how far outside your Prison Cell are you really? ;-)
Do you think I write a How To Recruit essay for the PD crowd before we try this?
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 04:55:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 14, 2008, 07:07:32 PM
So the blend of what seemed like real information and disinformation....interesting.
Anyway, the next step would be to catalogue all sites where there are multiple Discordians, as well as individual bloggers. Obviously I can think of 6 or 7 of these sites off the top of my head. The step after that is to either infiltrate, or assess. The latter being an option only when the former is impossible. Then, after a short time, just long enough for you to be accepted while having shook the place up a bit, make your pitch.
Right on.
I think you should write one.
Also, I have uploaded several books on manipulation and marketing. If you feel there is any good material you want to condense, I would suggest doing so. Its available at http://mihd.net/1v2u48 (will also upload to Mediafire in a couple of minutes).
I think if we take this approach, teaching strategy/organization, recruiting, creation of propaganda (and any other areas we may need, ideas?) and then compile them once we are ready to go, we could have a very useful foundational document.
:slaps forehead:
Rat, Cain, I just noticed one of the links posted was http://community.livejournal.com/eris_activists/
I totally forgot about that. I created it. The point was to counter the AFA email protests with positive messages to their targets.
I can do with it as we see fit. First things first, I'll try to bring it back to life.
Second link. http://www.mediafire.com/?0tlg0ftgilx Its an exact copy of the previous one. I forgot to add, its 80 MB, give or take.
Cram, what say you and I skidaddle off to the AWS? We've got our work practically cut out for us; shall we start acting like proper nodes of this network?
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 15, 2008, 04:44:11 PM
Of course, before we blitz, we should have a location to send them to and stuff for them to read...
ECH, WE CAN HAZ 4UM?
why you asking me?
personally, I'm in favor of it, and I doubt anyone whose opinion of what goes on around here actually matters for anything would disagree.
I would like this sort of thing, and even though I'm halfway drunk on port you should definitely hold me to it when I say I'm in.
I am completely drunk on bourbon, and I might be into it but I don't really understand what's going on.
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2008, 06:44:59 AM
I am completely drunk on bourbon, and I might be into it but I don't really understand what's going on.
We have a plan to pimp you out to anyone who pledges loyalty to our cause, as an incentive to join. Here's your business corset.
Quote from: Cainad on January 16, 2008, 06:47:46 AM
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2008, 06:44:59 AM
I am completely drunk on bourbon, and I might be into it but I don't really understand what's going on.
We have a plan to pimp you out to anyone who pledges loyalty to our cause, as an incentive to join. Here's your business corset.
SWEET, it's about time.
Quote from: Nigel on January 16, 2008, 06:44:59 AM
I am completely drunk on bourbon, and I might be into it but I don't really understand what's going on.
If I had a nickel for every time I've heard THAT.
hell, if I had a nickel for every time I've SAID that.
Anyway, as I was saying...
Quote from: LMNO on January 15, 2008, 05:31:40 PM
:slaps forehead:
Rat, Cain, I just noticed one of the links posted was http://community.livejournal.com/eris_activists/
I totally forgot about that. I created it. The point was to counter the AFA email protests with positive messages to their targets.
I can do with it as we see fit. First things first, I'll try to bring it back to life.
How should I go about recruiting on LJ for this? I've already got a few.
Should I repost some of the OKM rants? What's the best way to advertise an LJ group?
Lemme have a look over your membership...
Downloading that package of goodies. Someone remind me to upload from my dozens of gigs of eBooks on this subject when my stuff in Canada comes down in a few weeks.
Edit: I may be exaggerating. I do have dozens of gigs of ebooks, but they're not all on social skills.
Quote from: LMNO on January 16, 2008, 12:38:30 PM
Anyway, as I was saying...Quote from: LMNO on January 15, 2008, 05:31:40 PM
:slaps forehead:
Rat, Cain, I just noticed one of the links posted was http://community.livejournal.com/eris_activists/
I totally forgot about that. I created it. The point was to counter the AFA email protests with positive messages to their targets.
I can do with it as we see fit. First things first, I'll try to bring it back to life.
How should I go about recruiting on LJ for this? I've already got a few.
Should I repost some of the OKM rants? What's the best way to advertise an LJ group?
I think jpgs of flyers, essays on the topic of recruitment for ELF shenanigans etc would be most useful... see my post on recruitment.
Just wanted to add, the Chinese warfare manual, Unrestricted Warfare (pub 1999, PLA) is available in pdf format at http://www.terrorism.com/documents/TRC-Analysis/unrestricted.pdf This manual is precisely about thinking outside of the box and defeating a superior enemy (in this case, the USA) and so it is worth reading, I think. I'll get back to you when I've read some more.
all these links have been added to:
http://del.icio.us/tag/discordians
(there are some other people using the tag "discordians", dunno if their links are useful, if you just want the ones that are below, see http://del.icio.us/triplezero/discordians )
Quote from: Ratatosk on January 15, 2008, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 15, 2008, 04:28:58 PM
http://dolphin.esosoft.net/erisbarandgrill.com/forum/index.php - Eris Bar and Grill
http://www.poee.co.uk/boards/ - POEE UK
http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.com/ - Discordian blogger, routinely gets several replies per entry
http://singlenesia.com/news/ - Discordian New Network
http://www.thebeak.org/ - Discordian/political blog/online zine
http://tcsf.blogdrive.com/ - Subgenii/Discordian blogger, several readers
http://uncannilyobvious.blogspot.com/ - same as above
http://deoxy.org/index.htm - possible recruitment area
http://groups.myspace.com/eris - probably 20+ active members
http://groups.myspace.com/discordianism - as above
http://groups.myspace.com/santarchists - possible recruitment ground
http://groups.myspace.com/discordians - fewer members than the others, but still 200 profiles on the member roll
http://standrews.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204727328 (link probably wont work, put Discordian in the search engine on site) - Largest Discordian group on Facebook, roughly 1500 members.
32 other groups on Facebook, at least 10 of which have 80 odd members.
http://www.colboard.com/ and the 100,000 for Stephen Colbert group on Facebook
http://www.venganza.org/forum/index.php Yes, they're fuckwits, but...
And that's just a cursory look through my links.
Good start., also:
http://www.23ae.com (obviously)
http://www.maybelogic.net (also, obvious)
LJ groups:
There will be some crossover, but this should pick up a few bites.
http://community.livejournal.com/chosenbyeris/
http://community.livejournal.com/_sacred_chao_/
http://community.livejournal.com/discord_society/
http://community.livejournal.com/eris_activists/
http://community.livejournal.com/eristicmystics/
http://community.livejournal.com/irr_refugeecamp/
http://community.livejournal.com/the_23_club/
Sjaantze already has a pretty large group of Myspace Discordian friends, so we can use her as an ally. I can hit all of these... I'm thinking a few different posts though, to accent on whatever aspects of Discordianism seem most apparent there (23 vs sacred chao for example).
Of course, before we blitz, we should have a location to send them to and stuff for them to read...
ECH, WE CAN HAZ 4UM?