Messages

Reporting this guy just because he shits up everything.

Brother, you have NO idea.

I'd rather not, if you're a bossmandude around here, ban me faggot.

Reporting this guy just because he shits up everything.

Mobile doesn't let me use emotes, would someone kindly place a long line of laughing party hats and cigarettes?

Would gladly laugh at you all you want, if you haven't come to discuss the topic at hand, why respond at all?

So are you advocating for a conspiracy-nerd utopia where "decentralized" order comes from spontaneously arising secret societies?

...Maybe...

Why?

Because I'm bored with politics, I think a strange political system or even a strange turn of events in what constitutes power could spice it up a bit. It's boring just waiting with these blue-dressed seat warmers until some nuclear winter breaks out  just because pakistan doesn't like india.

Reporting roger for spamming are we.

I consider myself a nationalist, however that means Irish Nationalist: IE my nationalism is limited to wanting a united so Instead of two countries on this miserable rhumatic rock, there is one.

Same here, I love the history of my country, fighting off foreign invaders like the spanish and the french. I'm a Dutchman and want to reunite with Flanders because Belgium is an artificial country and stronger together and all that.
Reporting this guy just because he shits up everything.

Why on Earth would a self-identified Discordian be a nationalist? 

Because I want to be.
The rest of your post was something about socialism or something unrelated, which I don't really see as relevant.

Okay, you're a waste of time and can fuck off now.  You are here only for mockery from this point forward, as far as I am concerned.

Anyone else you can con into wasted time, knock yourself out.

Nah the only person I mock is you, since you've been spouting shit over every single one of my messages thusfar.

There is now a 169% chance that this bell end is a proudboy, and a 99% chance he is an incel.

Nice buzzwords, please continue your shouting in your head instead of in my thread, kindly fuck off.

A nationalist is automatically both.

nice bias, please fuck off and stop spamming.

To the OP:

No. The Sacred Chao represents everything. There is no remainder in the mathematics of infinity, nor is there any imbalance. Order and Disorder are both natural elements of chaos: neither is inherently good or bad.

I didn't mean to imply that either element is bad in any way, though I feel some people might have opinions on that. I feel the balance between both elements should be perfect, though as discussed in an earlier post, this divide of The Sacred Chao/Chaos into two elements like that is very much an illusion of Greyface, though we can still continue those illusions if we so wished, if even just to explain the sacred chao itself.

So are you advocating for a conspiracy-nerd utopia where "decentralized" order comes from spontaneously arising secret societies?

...Maybe...

And capitalist success comes on the broken, bloody spines of the worker and consumer. Just as any "little guy" in a position of power is traditionally an evil little shit, and please see 99% of cults, communes, any large family with a patriarch at the center, and so forth for proof.

History proves me right, and proves you to be either an optimistic fool or a sociopathic monster. I would like to assume the first, but you're a nationalist so it's all but certainly the second.

Speaking of biased...
In my eyes you're just shouting like an angry hippie, if you don't want to work then go die in a ditch I suppose. It's up to you.
The reason the guy at the top of the hierarchy in capitalistic societies is as cruel as they are is because capitalism favors those without remorse, if you want a society which favors something else, then go ahead and try to make that work out.
I mainly despise capitalism because it is global, defies local culture and power corrupts, since the more corrupt a society becomes, the less morals it has, the less morals, the more profits on products.
Manipulative charismatic cunts are gonna be manipulative charismatic cunts, what are you gonna do about it?

It's not my fault you two had such strong emotional connection to the word "little guy".
I'm a fan of decentralization as it stops one entity from grabbing all the power for itself and not allowing other movements to play in its shadow. Anyone could make a sect for themselves, if this lazy dumb selfish little guy you are thinking of wants to do that, then i doubt they'd get very far without thinking of their sect first.
It's the same in capitalism i'd say, anyone can start a company, few can make it a success.

Why on Earth would a self-identified Discordian be a nationalist? 

Because I want to be.
The rest of your post was something about socialism or something unrelated, which I don't really see as relevant.

It's interesting to see what the mirror of the PD reflects for different people.  I'll do my best to address your post without adding too much of my own interpretation, and only using PD as a source document.

Once more, thanks for your continued interest.

I'm wondering how you reconcile the above with pages 50 and 63.
Page 50 clearly states that the division of order and disorder are merely illusions; so any imbalance between Order and Disorder is also an illusion.  Which means, the pendulum does not exist, and means the Law of (An)Eristic Escalation is false and subjective.

I can accept the pendulum not being realistic in that sense that the existence of order and disorder are merely illusions laid upon us by the curse of greyface. You could call it hypocritical to still believe in the imbalance, but the law of eristic escalation is still very much real. It is not called as such in the principia (only in the intro, which can be disregarded as it confuses chaos with disorder). The core law is hinted at the top of page 00046.

Sorry, wanted to break in here and ask in what way you believe that the western world has not known order since 1991. Carry on.

I suppose it could be attributed to just the overton window that keeps balancing back and forth, which each generation reacting to the previous generation with the opposite. I'm not saying disorder has reigned since 1991, I'm saying the world has become lots more progressive since the end of ww2, since order has played such a huge part in the world in the first part of the 21st century, it's only natural that there should come a reaction to that in progressive form, i believe this to have taken off in the 60s with the hippies and like progressive movements, but were repressed by the pressure of the cold war, til the point where the Sov union fell apart and the military stress weakened, when progressivism started thriving, aka now. I believe a reaction to all this progressivism/craving for freedom will be something very orderly and repressive. I don't like how it seems like this rhythm is slowly radicalizing.

Page 63 declares that splitting life into Order and Disorder is the Curse of Greyface, in that it ignored the aspects of Creation and Destruction which are both inherent in the illusion of order, as well as in the illusion of disorder.  So, to look at the world as a battle between order and disorder, one is in fact perpetuating greyface behavior.

POEE claims that Creative disorder is good and that destructive order is bad, they don't say much about the opposite other than that it is bad. The division of Chaos into disorder and order may be considered greyface, but the POEE sees no problem in doing it themselves. The Principia itself is highly hypocritical, which is why it's hard to consistently build upon it.

Ok, back to this one.  It makes sense that if we're only talking about POEE, we're only talking about people who are a part of POEE.  Which means the structure of the POEE chart only applies to those in the POEE.  Which is kind of tautological, sure.  But remember, out of all the Discordians out there, this only pertains to a minority.

The Discordian Society described in the Principia is just the POEE manifestation of it (Page 00001), it doesn't matter if you're part of POEE or not, since they allow for autonomous movement within their hierarchy. You don't have to be a part of POEE to be a part of the POEE manifestation of the Discordian Society. The hand of Eris is part of POEE too, it is regarded as a global Discordian symbol. If you were to redefine the entire Discordian Society, you'd be busy for a while writing a new discordian bible.

Also, I'm really interested where you saw that there is a power structure in that chart, and that level V is "the most important one".  You say you can assume this from "documents signed by The House of Apostles of Eris," but I don't see that in the PD, which is supposed to be our only source material. 

All documents included in the principia are signed by the house of apostles of Eris, even the pope card. If pope cards have to be authorized by House 5, and the popes themselves are in House 1, doesn't that mean that house 5 authorizes the existence of house 1? Moreover they're described as POEE popes, which means that all popes are basically POEE popes, since we're all part of the POEE manifestation of the Discordian Society.

Further, the house names are clearly a reflection of the calendar, Chaos/Discord/Confusion/Bureaucracy/Aftermath.  As such, the grid should not be seen in a linear way, but a circular one.  Each house has equal importance, especially as it is explicitly stated on page 29, "POEE has... no by-laws, no articles, no guides". 

I see nothing on page 29 like that, I doubt the house names are reflections of the calendar, since the calendar is just a reflection of another page in the principia, as page 45 states, the book of uterus.

Overall, in regards to the Eristocracy, whether or not you are correct about them being a form of government or social class, while they might govern over the Discordian Society (if you believe that it is structured around the POEE), if a Discordian doesn't recognize POEE, then they are not bound by any of POEE's structures, regardless of what they are. The Discordian Society is not all discordians in society, of course.

This is correct, you can make up your own manifestation of the Discordian Society, but then you'd have to rewrite everything. the POEE manifestation allows for you to do your own thing (autonomous sects by episkoposes) and mostly ignore the POEE parts if you so wish, I don't see any need for that though. I quite like all the things the POEE manifestation made up, like ddate and the hierarchy.

And even then, as stated on page 39, "AN EPISKOPOS OF THE DISCORDIAN SOCIETY is one who prefers total autonomy, and creates his own Discordian sect as The Goddess directs him. He speaks for himself and for those that say that they like what he says."  The fact that there is a POEE chart in no way means that anyone involved, adjacent, or on the other side of the room needs to recognize it if they don't want to.

You can be an Episkopos of your own autonomous sect within the discordian society, but if that discordian society is not the POEE manifestation of it, then what is it? Don't forget that episkoposes are brought up in a document describing the POEE manifestation of the discordian society, so you can be both within the POEE Discordian Society and ignore the POEE part of it at the same time, you have that privilege. This is why POEE is such a paradoxical part of the Discordian Society, since it accounts for so much of it. Without the Matrix there wouldn't be popes, episkoposes or anything. If you want to make up something that's not POEE-related, go ahead and start your own manifestation of the Society.

To sum up, you appear to have taken partial definitions, misunderstood them, based assumptions off the misunderstanding, then attempted to codify them into a hierarchy that just happens to resemble the viewpoint you had before you started.  Which is fine, that's your Discordia. 
But it should be pointed out, you're building your church on the antithesis of POEE Discordian teachings.

I understand that I've come to misunderstand certain parts of the Principia, especially since english isn't my first language and it's hard to decypher those cryptic texts.
That aside, I think you too have a certain misinterpretation of what POEE is to Discordianism

I'm a nationalist by heart,

Knew it.

I'm a nationalist but understand that globalism is too useful and powerful to overcome, however I'm not a fan of americanization, so putting power in decentralization, and therefore in the little guy, is the best I can do.
It'd be a shame if culture would go to waste for a McDonalds.

For this post I'll only discuss principles discussed within the Principia, no other documents. Please mind that these ideas might be highly biased and are only my interpretation of the Principia.

The Principia Discordia describes the Discordian Society as a form of secret society with a semi-religious tone. Many assume Discordianism to be no more than a joke, or not even a religion at all. It is this doublespeak and paradoxical state of being that permits the Discordian Society to be everything at once, therefore The Discordian Society has no definition.
It's also important to note that this manifestation of the Discordian Society is based on POEE, which is the primary sect, unitary to the POEE manifestation of the Discordian Society. We'll only be talking about this manifestation.

Since 0 YOLD or the start of the curse of Greyface, Chaos has been artificially split into two, known as Order and Disorder. Ever since then, The Sacred Chao has been out of balance. The Sacred Chao can be described as a pendulum, somehow similar to the pendulum theory of the Overton window. This pendulum theory is very similar to the Law of Eristic Escalation, which is not named in the Principia Discordia (except wrongly explained in the intro) but hinted at and later named as such, it is the idea of the following.

Imposition of Order = Escalation of Disorder

Many believe (and it is hinted in the Principia) that the world has been more orderly than disorderly since the Curse of Greyface came about. Since then, the Sacred Chao (and therefore the world) has been a pendulum, ever swinging back and forth between Disorder and Order in an attempt to bring the world back to its natural form of unity between the two, being Chaos.
The pendulum swings back and forth because the equation works both ways, and is therefore in an everlasting loop.

Escalation of Disorder = Imposition of Order

It's my belief that the pendulum is currently swinging back towards an imposition of order, since the western world has known little of it since the end of the cold war. This is not to imply that there can't be multiple pendulums at once, describing every detail of reality as a relation between order and disorder or a magnitude of chaos.

Since the Principia was written in a time when the pendulum was swinging towards an Escalation of Disorder, it's my guess that the most orderly parts of the Principia have mostly gone ignored by most Discordians. I believe the Principia to be the perfect balance of Chaos ever seen in writing. Chaos does not have to be nonsensical, but it can be if it wants to be.
If intepretations of the Principia really are becoming more serious, then it's time to look at the different hints the Principia makes at a structured society.

The Principia describes a hierarchy as described in the POEE Disorganizational Matrix. It contains several houses, with house V (The House of Apostles of Eris) being the most important one. Through various paperwork signed by the House of Apostles of Eris we can assume that this hierarchy goes downwards, with the members of the House of Apostles of Eris being the Eristocrats of the Discordian Society.
The Eristocracy can both refer to a form of government or to the Social Class within the Society. In any case it can be assumed that all of the following are the Eristocrats of the Discordian Society.

A. The Five Apostles of Eris
B. The Golden Apple Corps (KSC)
C. Episkoposes of The Discordian Society
D. POEE Cabal Priests
E. Saints, Erisian Avatars, and Like Personages

It seems fairly obvious that the houses have an up-down hierarchy, while this can't be said for sure for the inner part of the houses, for instance, it's uncertain whether the Apostles have more power within this structure than one powerful Episkopos, due to the fact that this information is not given anywhere, we'll assume all manners within the houses are resolved in an adhocratic manner.
Since all Pope cards are authorized by the highest house, it's also unknown whether the highest house could in the same way undo said decision of authorization.

I personally fell in love and obsession with the Eristocratic model because of its decentralization. The Discordian Society is a global phenomenon with no certainty to whether it already exists or not, anyone may feel free to become an Episkopos and do things their own way if their success allows it. Based on the presumption that the Eristocracy would work on a basis of influence, this would mean that any group of people could band together and do things their own way and perhaps even influence the rest of the Discordian Society if their work was influential enough.

Of course, with this much decentralization it would be a huge mess if there was not a unitary system, which this hierarchy perfectly embodies. Since this manifestation of the Discordian Society is based on POEE principles, it's to be assumed that POEE ( who have their own hierarchy of priests and such) may serve as the unitary part of the society. In other words, those that have the most influence within the highest house - the Eristocracy - has the most say in the Discordian Society.
Though this may be completely disregarded if you choose to become your own Episkopos and become 100% autonomous of the decisions of other Eristocrats, this would mean that you would also not be able to influence said decisions.

The rest of the Hierarchy also serves useful, where the 4th house is about the Disorderly power of the masses/disciples of Discordia, the 3rd house for the Orderly Bureaucratic Affairs that must be kept up to validate the Eristocracy, and the 1st house for all miscellaneous Discordians including the Fifth Column.
To this day I have no idea what the 2nd house truly represents, though anyone may feel to add to this, I think it's something esoteric which prevents the Immanentization of the Eschaton.

I truly believe the Eristocracy to be a viable alternative political system or even Ideology. It allows for Decentralization, unitary functioning, powerful leaders, the given power to outrank those powerful leaders and more. It is both orderly and disorderly, causing it to be a perfect mix of Chaos ripe for implementation.
Discordian Sects/cabals are perfect because they require no definition, they're truly autonomous dynamic entities to the point where they could be companies, cults, websites or even a postcard. Anyone can make them, even the episkopos' doesn't have to be real person.

The following is highly personal and my reasoning for liking this system.
I'm a nationalist by heart, but then you are you come across nothing but authoritarian people, people who want nothing but more centralization. Too often it's come to my attention that provinces and municipalities have no choice but to listen to the orders of the big national government, which defeats the purpose of having elections for those lower governments in the first place, since they won't have the authority to do anything with the power they hold over their small territory within the nation. Since then I've come to reject centralization and fell in love with Decentralization.
I truly believe the Eristocracy to be a good decentralized alternative because it allows for individuals to do as they please, though said power can't be enforced if their claims to power are illegitimate. It might just be a fiction fantasy, but I love the idea regardless.

I hope to dedicate this thread to ideas that could further the idealization of the Discordian Society's political system.

Hail Eris!

Noble-chan, could please define xenobia and xenophobic for the class?

Xenophobia in this context; fear for that which is foreign to you.

My personal vision for the world is that it reflects what is shown in the Sacred Chao. I think the Law of Eristic Escalation is going to attract more right-wingers and "Serious religious believers" no matter what you do about it.

Ok, I'll play.  I'd like to hear more about your vision... would you mind starting a conversation in "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" so we can discuss?   I'll approach it non-judgementally.  I can't promise anyone else will, though.

Thanks for being interested, I suppose I'll post there when I have a little more time.

This just in. Racists, Nazis, and trolls are the same class of checks notes foreigners, and therefore being mean to them is checks notes xenophobia.

In other news. Words have no meaning.

in other news, you are extremely biased.