It's true, I saw it in the news
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Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 23, 2022, 04:16:05 AMassuming i can remember which facebook person she is
Can you ask QG to give me the link to the Friday night group?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 18, 2022, 11:44:19 PM
I got ahold of a page full of people that think Trump should be installed for life.
Scat porn bombing may have been involved.
And apparently, I had run out of chances.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on June 16, 2020, 09:17:59 PMQuote from: tyrannosaurus vex on June 16, 2020, 09:11:25 PMThose concerns also apply, more or less, to the denizens of an ant colony.
(do I have a home? do I have food? do I have a community that supports me? do I have to worry about assholes from the next kingdom over burning my town down next wee? will I catch the plague and die?)QuoteSo, what, in your opinion, would qualify as a fundamental difference?
I thought that would be implied by the qualifier "fundamentally", as in, "does it mean something fundamentally different to be human in 2020 than it meant in 1320".
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on June 16, 2020, 09:06:41 PMQuote from: tyrannosaurus vex on June 14, 2020, 10:52:12 PM
One of the most insidious and dangerous assumptions we have is the silly idea that human history has a direction. That in some meaningful way, life in the 21st century is fundamentally different (even "better") than life in, say, the 14th century, or the 21st century BCE for that matter.
The second sentence in the above claims that not only has there been an improvement in the last 600 years, but that nothing much has changed. There are literally hundreds of counterexamples, mostly technological, some social.
You move on to say that longer lifespans aren't intrinsically a good thing.Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on June 15, 2020, 02:15:05 AMSanitation is an improvement if you have one human involved. You don't need a high population density. And it's not just the length of the lifespan, it's also the part where you don't shit yourself to death from dysentery.
As for your specific example, clean water and sanitation are better if we take it for granted that longer lifespans and higher population density are better.
Here's another example: improvements in agriculture and transportation mean we can amortize the effects of local crop failures. That means the tribe that worships Enfen-Loqa of the sevenfold tongue, doesn't have as much of an incentive to kill the proselytes of Amur-Hoth, just to ensure their access to the food supply.Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on June 16, 2020, 08:47:01 PMYour chances of being fulfilled as a member of a society (whatever the hell that means) are somewhat lessened if you're dead.
3. The final question about what we have gained, as might be evident if you remember that it is the last line in a larger piece and not just a singular lonesome question posed all by itself without context, is asking whether our technological progress has made a difference in the fundamental, innate feeling of being a human being or our chances of being fulfilled as a member of society.
Quote from: altered on June 16, 2020, 08:56:41 PM
"Technology is useless" was implied by "life is fundamentally the same as it was in the 1300s." Because that's a damnable lie.
The rest isn't in the first post, sure: it came from your responses to being called on that really dumb statement about life being fundamentally the same as it was ~700 years ago.
Quote from: me
One of the most insidious and dangerous assumptions we have is the silly idea that human history has a direction. That in some meaningful way, life in the 21st century is fundamentally different (even "better") than life in, say, the 14th century, or the 21st century BCE for that matter. That human events follow a more or less predictable (at least in hindsight) trajectory from "primitive" to "advanced", and that it does this because of some sort of natural law that governs all kinds of progress.
This idea is pure bunk, and should be stamped out with extreme prejudice wherever you see it. It is the kernel at the center of the centrist's inaction in the face of injustice, the unfounded presupposition behind violent wars of "regime change" and "nation building", and the morally vacant justification for colonialist thinking. It is the reason we are taught that the evils of slavery and genocide are "in the past" while the forces that drive them simmer in communities around the world.
History has no arc. It is not a story about a protagonist species who learn and grow. It has never been guaranteed that tomorrow will be more just for you than today, or that the next century will bring more opportunity for your descendants than the last one had for your ancestors. This should be plain to see as we watch the entire allegedly "free" world slip farther every day into the same patterns of mistakes and collapse that have recurred time and again since anyone bothered to remember anything.
Even when disaster is averted, for all our apparent progress we have never actually made a difference in what it means to be human. Sure, we have the power to blow up the planet, the power to fling ourselves uselessly into orbit, the power to talk to each other across insurmountable distances. But so what if we can do all this, but give up the ability to feed our children, or the time to appreciate a sunset once in a while, or the courage to speak to our own neighbors? What have we gained, exactly, and why do we imagine that to be "progress"?
Quote from: altered on June 16, 2020, 08:08:54 PM
Vex, I don't agree with most of Howl's response here, and I genuinely think there could be a better way of life than what we got, and I think there is not arrow of history (because all it takes is an autocratic Luddite taking control and suddenly it's feudal Europe again), but he's kind of right about the target audience part here. It's everyone. Because it APPLIES to everyone, or to no one. What's good for the goose and all that.
No matter who the target audience is, Mein Kampf is an abhorrent text with abhorrent conclusions.
And yeah, I did just compare the shit you're saying in defense of a viewpoint I agree with you on to Mein Kampf because the end result of both of them is a lot of people being fucking miserable and/or dead.
Sit with that and keep reading.
Do some soul searching while I call you a moron again, because you're letting the facts that you are not very fucking smart right now and that your supporting arguments for your core point are DETESTABLE become an attack on your moral fiber.
But these things are only truly an attack on your moral fiber if you let them be, in the sense that while any human being could think this horrid shit up and most could rationalize it into sounding like a good idea, only a monster would refuse to engage critically with it when told that they're being an asshole.
Stop being defensive and seriously think why the fuck I would say this. Why a lot of people, practically the whole forum short of the resident peacekeeper Cramulus would say this.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 16, 2020, 07:41:46 PMQuote from: tyrannosaurus vex on June 16, 2020, 07:21:22 PMQuote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 16, 2020, 06:08:34 PM
V3x you're being an ass
I apologize. Western technological civilization really is the best we can do as a species and I take back everything I said about other cultures retaining their humanity.
Other cultures are just like us. Some are even worse (ask an "untouchable" how their day went), but all have the exact same set of drives. The only actual difference between cultures is access to resources, and the ability to store enough resources to support an educated class.
There are no inherently noble cultures or classes. All humans are assholes by default, although the occasional freak may rise above that. Even our gestures at "noble purposes" are a statement of wealth. "I can afford to worry about <insert cause>, because I will not starve to death by the end of the week."
The very culture we complain about is the culture that allows us to give a damn.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 16, 2020, 08:02:39 PMQuote from: proword on June 16, 2020, 07:56:06 PMQuote The very culture we complain about is the culture that allows us to give a damn.
That's what I took altered to be saying when she mentioned something to the effect of "all meat on the bones is racist" back in the 'so about these riots' thread, IIRC. The fact that some are using that privilege to address systemic oppression and abuse is in itself a thing of wonder, given that it COULD undermine the vantage that permits that expression. The moral ground wins over the ethical in this case, I think, there's BEAUTY and TRUTH in that.
Yeah, the thing about the arrow of history is that the rising tide may not lift all boats, but it lifts more and more boats.
It sucks if you're on a short anchor chain, though.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 16, 2020, 06:08:34 PM
V3x you're being an ass
Quote from: altered on June 16, 2020, 07:05:05 AM
Finally, seeing as that was a good point to jump into this from...
If you really think that my response or seeing someone talking about how maybe we are more focused on long life than happiness and maybe that's dumb when I am seeing an acquaintance in tears about her massively shortened lifespan due to racist inequality, while I'm seeing my OWN lifespan roll up toward my face at frightening speed, if you think my response to that should be civil? Get bent. I'm fucking broken. I'm lucky to be standing here, there's hundreds of able bodied, neurotypical cishet people who would have brained themselves by now. And I fought this hard and this long, apparently, to have someone tell me that maybe massively shortened lifespans are a good trade off for happiness when it's well the fuck known that lifespan and happiness are literally DIRECTLY correlated.
I will not be nice about it. Discordia is not nice at all to begin with, and words like that in the state I'm in are just a hair short of saying I need to suck it up and lay down and submit to irrelevance. The "hair short" part is only because I'm fairly sure that wasn't the INTENDED reading.
If the general preference is for me to be nice and pleasant in the face of a DEEP FUCKING INSULT, at a time that any person in my situation would be losing their goddamn mind about that exact damn point being made, then you can keep it, I'll stay the hell out of threads I don't make in the future, because it's all downhill from here.