So, I was looking at that snazzy chao up top there, and I was thinking that perhaps the Taoism reference is a bit much nowadays. I appreciate the sentiment, with order and disorder complementing each other in Chaos, but maybe one of you designers could try something else...
Re-inventing the wheel, I know, but maybe the questions could be "what is that" rather than "Why are you ripping off taoism?"
Hmm. Golden apple in a pyramid, maybe. Or an 8-pointed star. Both have unrelated stigmas, but maybe that's ok.
Balance Beam?
i dunno, it's a symbol. we have more of them, the five fingered hand of eris, the kallisti-engraved apple ..
in the case of discordianism, i like having symbols, simply for being able to stamp something "this has discordian origin", sometimes you want that (and other times you want to KYFMS)
((i also like symbols because i think symbolism is pretty and interesting, like metaphores in poetry, but i don't think that's really relevant in this discussion))
i dont think the "ripping off taoism" is much of a problem. if someone'd be giving you a hard time over the tao-ripoff of that symbol (which it is, it is a ripoff, no sense in denying that), i think you'd be in pretty much the same boat if we had a different symbol, but then they'd be nagging about something else.
finally, i would like to remark, to whoever made this particular pic, that it is wrong. if you trace the sides of the pentagon, you will find a downwards pointing pentagram. i explicitly read somewhere (i think it was in the Illuminatus Trilogy) that the pentagon is oriented in such a way that it forms neither the inside of a downwards pentagram, nor the inside of an upwards pentagram, but is exactly in between, resulting in a sidewards pointing pentagram.
the easiest way to make sure of this, is to not have the top or the bottom edge be exactly horizontal, but to have either the left or the right edge of the pentagon be exactly vertical (i personally prefer the right edge, for some vague aesthetical reason)
Quote from: LMNO on February 05, 2008, 03:51:59 PM
So, I was looking at that snazzy chao up top there, and I was thinking that perhaps the Taoism reference is a bit much nowadays. I appreciate the sentiment, with order and disorder complementing each other in Chaos, but maybe one of you designers could try something else...
Re-inventing the wheel, I know, but maybe the questions could be "what is that" rather than "Why are you ripping off taoism?"
Thoughts:
The Yin and Yang might fit if we use the Renzai school metaphor (and Taoists don't usually mind the ripoff)... and I think it might work as a memetic entity, since it can make use of the existing memetic material in the mind of the individual, making it easier to add new material.
In support of the Chao I would say this:
1. The Sacred Chao has existed as a meme for 30+ years, its in the wild and not something likely to disappear... and I feel (as I do with all of the old memes) that exploring the new doesn't require abandoning the old.
2. Every religion appears to rip off symbols and memes from other religions. I think the Sacred Chao is a spoof of that tendency and thus makes a useful point.
3. The sacred chao (as I mentioned above) has some very useful features for metaphor/map/modeling.
In support of a new symbol I would say:
1. The more symbols we can create the better... symbols tend to make great vehicles for memes and ideas.
2. The Yin-Yang makes one think of balance and harmony. The Sacred Chao though, IMO, should evoke the idea of a teeter-totter (escalation of Order -> escalation of Disorder) rather than static balance and a cacophony rather than harmony.
3. There are a lot of new ideas which aren't in the PD, these new concepts should be included in our symbolism... not all of the old ones work.
"And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, "The old is good." " - Some Jew from 2000 years ago... or some fiction writer from more recently)
We have new ideas, but like new wine, they're still working and taste green. If we try to mash these new ideas into our old symbols the symbols will probably suffer a critical failure when the new ideas outgrow the old symbols. However, the old ideas and old symbols have been around working for ages. They taste good and they are filled with meaning...
Both appear necessary to me, otherwise we'd drink all of the old and have nothing left to pass to the next crop of Erisian Freaks.
I see the point about the Chao, but don't quite follow your intent. Yes, the Chao could be called a ripoff or mockery of the Tao, (albeit in a more lightheared and thought - out way than an inverted cross ), but I don't follow why anyone should shy away from creating inquiry or confusion, it does give an excuse to refer people to the Principia. Depending on your angle, that may or may not be good.
Quote from: Felix on February 05, 2008, 04:12:34 PM
Hmm. Golden apple in a pyramid, maybe. Or an 8-pointed star. Both have unrelated stigmas, but maybe that's ok.
TITCM
addition: i don't like the 8 pointed star because people will associate that with Warhammer, also i don't want to deal with War Hammer geeks making remarks about it (yeah i know a couple of ppl on this board play Warhammer, i dont intend to say you guys are geeks, but you gotta admit that a lot of them are).
then, the 8 pointed star is also a traditional symbol from Chaos Magick. TBH, while Chaos Magick has some definite overlap with discordianism, I would like to distance myself from that as well. Discordians practicing Chaos Magick, do what you will, but for me I do not want that instant association.
I like the Chao because i can scribble it on something (try and practice drawing a good pentagon, it's not as easy as it seems :-P), and when somebody asks me about it, I can tell them.
Of course the same argument of Taoism goes for Warhammer and Chaos Magick (although afaik, the Warhammer symbol is also a ripoff based on Chaos Magick). But I think the important distinction here is that Discordians have been using the Sacred Chao for nearly 50 years now, and I think we can call it our own now. Maybe we just need to plaster it all over the place more.
Another interesting visual distinction of the Chao vs the Tao, is that the two parts of the Tao are painted symmetrically with black and white, while the Chao isn't. Instead, sometimes, the little corners/points of both parts are sometimes made black and shaded to white outwards [as shown here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/10.php ]
In the spirit of comprimise what if we changed the S-shape divinding the two into a Z shape, or something similar? or maybe even a blurred edge, to symbolize that orderly disorder, and vice versa?
Our symbol should be a black swan, on a jagged line of infinite length, with a fractal in the background.
I think the absence of light and dark in the chao is good. It's not a visual contrast between hodge and podge, it's symbolic.
Also, the black swan is a great idea.
Quote from: Cain on February 05, 2008, 04:56:24 PM
Our symbol should be a black swan, on a jagged line of infinite length, with a fractal in the background.
"Shit! The printer needs more toner!"
(http://www.swales.wea.org.uk/Image_Bank/Birds_ImageResource/images/Black%20Swan.jpg)
A butterfly is an acceptable subsitute, although the stylized black swan on the book cover is also pretty swote.
Quote from: LMNO on February 05, 2008, 04:52:05 PMIn the spirit of comprimise what if we changed the S-shape divinding the two into a Z shape, or something similar? or maybe even a blurred edge, to symbolize that orderly disorder, and vice versa?
well all those things would be nice ideas if it was 40 years ago. we could make a new symbol, but there's no way ever to get all discordians in one line again in using it.
and personally, i like the shading in the points as it is now better than a Z shape or a blurred edge.
I support the use of a 7-pointed star, because it looks funky and it shows the world that even we Discordians can tell the Law of Fives to go suck on a toilet brush if we so choose.
Quote from: Cainad on February 05, 2008, 05:27:36 PM
I support the use of a 7-pointed star, because it looks funky and it shows the world that even we Discordians can tell the Law of Fives to go suck on a toilet brush if we so choose.
I like it. Hell, why not the
n-pointed star? That'll show 'em.
i like the 7 pointed star too, it's novel.
(right? isn't it?)
though my point about never being able to make a new symbol as popular as the old Chao, stands
Symbols need to bring a concept to mind in order to be useful. A Black Swan would work fro people that have read the book... but would appear meaningless (I think) to mosbunal other people... the Chao, at least gets the balance thing across right away (though I still wonder if that's the best metaphor).
Also, I think a lot depends on what message you've encoded in the symbol. The Sacred Chao has an visual element for each of the pieces that make up the philosophical statement. The 8 pointed arrow, for example shows "all possible paths"... again typifying a philosophical statement through the symbol. Does a black swan represent the same sort of thing as the Chao, or does it represent the unknown/unknowable variable? That is, the swan may make a good Discordian symbol, but I don't see it relating to the Chao, as much as a symbol of its own to represent the Black Swan Effect... even then, maybe we don't want to crib quite so directly from a current book... but then maybe we do.
A new symbol I've been thinking of recently, might be a teapot. Particularly a Celestial Teapot... Dawkins and his fanatics love to rant about Russel's teapot (thus they use a silly argument to close off lots of ?!?!?!?!?!?! options). Recently, my response to their statement of teapots, is that Eris is well known for making 'tea' out of her Five Fingered Herb and may well have left her kettle on the far side of the Sun.
Could a Celestial Teapot be worked into a symbol which might promote the idea of being OK with Not Knowing?
(http://www.theinvisiblecollege.com/ErisTeapot.jpg)
we should use the cross as our symbol.
or maybe a star of david
no! the scientology symbol
But $ is a shit symbol....
I dunno. I don't mind the chao. I think some other Discordian icons up there would be nice
-st gulik
-five fingered hand
-maybe some sort of goatse reference.
right now it's those two guys from the Don Hertzfeldt film and nobody seems to mind.
I don't see what all the hullabaloo is about using the Chao.
More symbols is better, because then you can pick and choose more.
Quote from: triple zero on February 05, 2008, 04:45:32 PM
the 8 pointed star is also a traditional symbol from Chaos Magick.
quoted for delicious irony that would annoy Chaos madgjikians.
But we're ANTI-TRADITIONS!!! :argh!:
DON'T GO FUCKING WIF MY PENTAL AND POMAL NOW!!
ATHAME GOES WHERE?
SURPRISE GRAILSECHS?
Quote from: LMNO on February 05, 2008, 07:45:05 PM
SURPRISE GRAILSECHS?
:lol:
And more seriously - yeah I think some new symbols would be cool.
FEAR MY SPEAR OF DESTINY!
As an aside:
What type of 7 pointed star are you suggesting? Only because the 7 pointed star logo has associations to Crowley & his AA logo (Babalon and all that).
Just about every symbol out there will have some association. If y'all are going to attempt the cat - hearding of making one, getting a basic idea and embelishing never hurts.
Also, represent what you want it to be associated with: it stands for you, you don't stand for it.
(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2559/babalonja3.th.jpg) (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=babalonja3.jpg)
(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/6615/babz2lg9.th.jpg) (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=babz2lg9.jpg)
Butterfly.
Fractal
7 pointed star.
Black Swan
Infinitely long line.
Apple
Pyramid
GO!
I've been trying to pin down some norse runes, but everyone has a different opinion on which one means what. There was one that stood for fluidity and movement, and others for Loki, etc. Will continue looking.
Quote from: Mangrove on February 05, 2008, 08:38:19 PM
(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2559/babalonja3.th.jpg) (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=babalonja3.jpg)
(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/6615/babz2lg9.th.jpg) (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=babz2lg9.jpg)
oh i was imagining it would be like that chaos 8 pointed arrow thing, only with 7 points.
that would be novel, right?
I like that we claim the Taoists ripped it off from us.
I thought the incorporation of Ouroboros (prolly Syn) into the sacred chao was pretty brilliant.
Here's a pic of it and Hoopla's left hand:
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3282/pdhbsr3.jpg)
That ain't my hand.
Quote from: Hoopla on February 06, 2008, 01:48:38 AM
That ain't my hand.
That's what SHE said.
Sorry, I don't usually go there. :)
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2980/applelz7.jpg)?????
Quote from: Felix on February 06, 2008, 02:19:30 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on February 06, 2008, 01:48:38 AM
That ain't my hand.
That's what SHE said.
Sorry, I don't usually go there. :)
:lol:
ITT, Felix's new depths.
(http://www.blackswanexplorations.com/images/Black-Swan-logo-Revise.gif)
Wow, that's one big black swan.
but the line its floating on is nowhere infinite enough :-)
Quote from: Netaungrot on February 06, 2008, 01:30:43 AM
I thought the incorporation of Ouroboros (prolly Syn) into the sacred chao was pretty brilliant.
Here's a pic of it and Hoopla's left hand:
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3282/pdhbsr3.jpg)
ditto. That's one sweet looking Chao.
No one's made a "Chao Tipping" pun in a while, so I thought I'd just give it a puch.
I doodled a somewhat interesting symbol on the binder in which my copy of Principia is kept. The Chao, however, is (for me, at least) the enduring "logo" of the Erisian Movement. It was, after all, displayed to Mal-2 and Lord Omar before the very idea of Discordianism had even crept into their heads, so I guess the sight of it caused this Whole Thing??
Quote from: Thelaughingman421 on February 08, 2008, 05:27:03 AM
I doodled a somewhat interesting symbol on the binder in which my copy of Principia is kept. The Chao, however, is (for me, at least) the enduring "logo" of the Erisian Movement. It was, after all, displayed to Mal-2 and Lord Omar before the very idea of Discordianism had even crept into their heads, so I guess the sight of it caused this Whole Thing??
PSssst, thats what they want you to think...
Quote from: Thelaughingman421 on February 08, 2008, 05:27:03 AM
I doodled a somewhat interesting symbol on the binder in which my copy of Principia is kept. The Chao, however, is (for me, at least) the enduring "logo" of the Erisian Movement. It was, after all, displayed to Mal-2 and Lord Omar before the very idea of Discordianism had even crept into their heads, so I guess the sight of it caused this Whole Thing??
:|
REMINDER:
A Discordian is prohibited from believing anything they read.
Quote from: Thelaughingman421 on February 08, 2008, 05:27:03 AM
I doodled a somewhat interesting symbol on the binder in which my copy of Principia is kept. The Chao, however, is (for me, at least) the enduring "logo" of the Erisian Movement. It was, after all, displayed to Mal-2 and Lord Omar before the very idea of Discordianism had even crept into their heads, so I guess the sight of it caused this Whole Thing??
Either that or a bowling ball to the head.
Quote from: LMNO on February 08, 2008, 01:14:24 PM
A Discordian is prohibited from believing anything they read.
I refuse to believe that.
I don't believe you.
yes you do
I want to believe.[/mulder]
(http://www.geekculture.com/geekculturestore/webstore/webstoreimages/newufo.gif)
(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1462/disbeliefsizedwx2.jpg)
That. Is. So. Much. Cooler. Than. Mine.
Funnily enough, I nicked it from a guy who does believe in UFOs.
Well, not in the conventional sense. He believes they are linked to occult practices, and has some interesting evidence for this. He goes into Crowley, Parsons, Scientology, the military etc to explain his thinking on it. Its actually somewhat scarier than the notion bug eyed sexual deviants are kidnapping people.
I agree.
Quote from: Cain on February 08, 2008, 07:03:42 PM
Funnily enough, I nicked it from a guy who does believe in UFOs.
Well, not in the conventional sense. He believes they are linked to occult practices, and has some interesting evidence for this. He goes into Crowley, Parsons, Scientology, the military etc to explain his thinking on it. Its actually somewhat scarier than the notion bug eyed sexual deviants are kidnapping people.
Wonder if that's whats happening in Texas?
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 08, 2008, 07:37:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 08, 2008, 07:03:42 PM
Funnily enough, I nicked it from a guy who does believe in UFOs.
Well, not in the conventional sense. He believes they are linked to occult practices, and has some interesting evidence for this. He goes into Crowley, Parsons, Scientology, the military etc to explain his thinking on it. Its actually somewhat scarier than the notion bug eyed sexual deviants are kidnapping people.
Wonder if that's whats happening in Texas?
I hear that is advertising.
UFOs are big business, after all. http://xzonenation.blogspot.com/2008/01/wake-up-ufology.html
I like and dislike the Chao. I like it because it is overtly symbolic in a way that makes people try to figure out what it means. I dislike it because it is overtly symbolic in a way that makes people try to figure out what it means.
I like the Five-Fingered Hand of Eris, because:
1. It has a cool-sounding name
2. It's neat-looking
3. It's neither a hand, nor does it have five fingers
4. ???
5. PROFIT!
I'd like to see more symbols presented; I especially like the idea of adopting the circle-slash as a Discordian symbol. Probably the Bobites are already using it though. Maybe that's a bonus?
Circle-slash?
I think we should start using Alfred E. Newman's face. Dressed as Charles Manson.
How bout a Crash Symbol.
RWHN,
not really trying.
Quote from: Hoopla on February 08, 2008, 08:21:16 PM
I think we should start using Alfred E. Newman's face. Dressed as Charles Manson.
Pics please before agreement! :lulz:
Quote from: st.verbatim on February 08, 2008, 08:19:45 PM
Circle-slash?
You know, the international symbol for "no".
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/SlashCircle.svg/600px-SlashCircle.svg.png)
This whole thread is full of win.
Here's some of mine:
Meditation on the 5-fingered Hand of Eris and the "Star Sapphire"(unicursal hexagram) of Crowley:
(http://irreality.net/mediastore/640/imagelarge/5FingeredHands.jpg)
Spiral Pentagram (inscribed on one of my Apples):
(http://irreality.net/mediastore/640/images/sprial_penta.gif)
Ooooh I like!
Woot Telarus
Quote from: Khara on February 08, 2008, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on February 08, 2008, 08:21:16 PM
I think we should start using Alfred E. Newman's face. Dressed as Charles Manson.
Pics please before agreement! :lulz:
WHAT, ME WITCHY?
\
(http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2551/alfredemansonpu4.jpg)
I'm not sure where this discussion has gone and I'm not reading 5 pages, but I really do like the black swan posted on the first page.
Or are we past that?
Nah, it's still doable.
Weird though. You're reading a message board without really liking to read?
I skip the middle of some posts. Sometimes I have to go back and read because its too confusing . . . all too often I don't need to catch up at all. So, I understand.
Yeah, but I dunno. Posting in threads is so reliant on each post building on what's already been said. If you don't take it all in (within reason. Some shit you just can't read.) and respond to the thread as a body of work, then you're just sort of giving yourself crappy tunnel for no reason.
Just because you're an excellent masturbator does not qualify you to be in a relationship.
I always thought it was thread development that makes it all worthwhile... if you skip a bunch of pages, then you're missing most of the story, you know?
You've been around long enough to have noticed that some stories are worth skipping, no?
Yep. The ones that don't interest me.
I skim some people's posts. I admit it. But I tend to not respond to those people either, so it doesn't really matter.
And so, the world turns.
I read people's posts to some extent based on merit too. For instance, Great Teacher Largo, Cat~Maxwell, and coughbharlioncough.
What if the poster has no merit, but post in itself has some?
They almost always get read and responded to, I've found.
Quote from: Thelaughingman421 on February 11, 2008, 02:15:07 PM
What if the poster has no merit, but post in itself has some?
I miss out, I guess.
Well, generally someone reads them and says "hey, that was pretty good" so I take off my curmudgeon hat and go back to see if it was.
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1935/hexcircroso9.jpg)
This should be our new symbol.
^ I like. But how in all frack did we forget the Penrose triangle?
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4854/280pxpenrosetrianglesvgfr4.png)
But if we use that won't we have to change it to the Law of 7s?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/Marburger/Eristriangle.jpg)
Quote from: Cain on February 11, 2008, 05:25:36 PM
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1935/hexcircroso9.jpg)
This should be our new symbol.
KISS
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 11, 2008, 05:57:51 PM
But if we use that won't we have to change it to the Law of 7s?
Yeah. So?
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2008, 06:05:07 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/Marburger/Eristriangle.jpg)
:mittens:
(http://scribalterror.blogs.com/scribal_terror/images/kleinglass.jpg)
Woooow. Did you make that?
Any thoughts on Crowley being anal-raped by a polar bear?
I don't really know how to make it into a simple, easy to remember symbol though. I'm not really a graphic designer...
Quote from: Dr. Felix Mackay on February 12, 2008, 06:33:44 AM
Woooow. Did you make that?
No, I just think klein bottles are neat.
Add the Five-Fingered Hand of Eris to the bottle?
Quote from: nostalgicBadger on February 12, 2008, 06:41:22 AM
Any thoughts on Crowley being anal-raped by a polar bear?
LOTS.
Quote from: Dr. Felix Mackay on February 11, 2008, 07:17:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 11, 2008, 05:25:36 PM
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1935/hexcircroso9.jpg)
This should be our new symbol.
KISS
It is simple...relatively speaking.
We're trying to turn LACK OF TEH PHUNNAY into pure Lulz.
Its the Greatest Work undertaken by man.
I Hear and Obey.
Quote from: Cain on February 12, 2008, 01:12:00 PM
We're trying to turn LACK OF TEH PHUNNAY into pure Lulz.
Its the Greatest Work undertaken by man.
So we're attempting to build a Discordian roflcake out of symbols?
the Philosopher's Stoned.
Quote from: Cain on February 11, 2008, 05:25:36 PM
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1935/hexcircroso9.jpg)
This should be our new symbol.
I like this. It's occulty.....and it has a weird, evil green glow. I'm pretty much sold on things that have an eerie green glow.
Dammit. I should have made mine glow.
"Eldritch".
The word you're looking for is "Eldrich."
Quote from: Hoopla on February 12, 2008, 08:39:53 PM
Dammit. I should have made mine glow.
I'm sure you still can. Alfred E.Manson....but with radioactive powers.
In all seriousness, regardless of whether any of these gets turned into a logo or not, we have are at least, establishing a nice collection of images etc that can be used in future publications. Lollercaust* perhaps?
* Lollercaust = PD.com's answer to Axl Rose's 'Chinese Deplomacy' album
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2008, 08:44:13 PM
"Eldritch".
The word you're looking for is "Eldrich."
Thank you. Just so long this isn't an
Andrew Eldritch thing.
IN TEH TEMPLE OV LOVE!
Quote from: Mangrove on February 12, 2008, 08:45:41 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on February 12, 2008, 08:39:53 PM
Dammit. I should have made mine glow.
I'm sure you still can. Alfred E.Manson....but with radioactive powers.
In all seriousness, regardless of whether any of these gets turned into a logo or not, we have are at least, establishing a nice collection of images etc that can be used in future publications. Lollercaust* perhaps?
* Lollercaust = PD.com's answer to Axl Rose's 'Chinese Deplomacy' album
:lulz:
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2008, 08:48:26 PM
IN TEH TEMPLE OV LOVE!
Oh great. Now you'll fill the place with rhythmless white kids who do 'wiggly hand dancing'.
Damn you early 90's alternative rock club scene :argh!:
'Wiggly hand dancing'......
I think reality just broke some more
Quote from: Disorder on February 12, 2008, 08:14:05 AM
Add the Five-Fingered Hand of Eris to the bottle?
YAYS!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Penrose_pentagon.svg/400px-Penrose_pentagon.svg.png)
^WIN.
:mittens:
Oh, well I cant take any credit.
I just filched it off of a Wikipedia page. :)
It's kind of gay.
I like it.
It's the colouring system . . . I mean c'mon . . . pastels? REALLY?
My brain made that make sense by just assuming it's flat.