...but sometimes i dig a sense of order. that isn't to say that i don't apprecaite the emphasis of discord as a corrective measure to the curse of Greyface but i think that at times it's also important to pull back sometimes and look at the harmonious interplay between order and disorder. for me this is one of those times.
according that ancient piece of literature we all ad(bh)ore:
QuoteLook at all the order around you," [Greyface] said. And from that, he deluded honest men to believe that reality was a straightjacket affair and not the happy romance as men had known it....It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular time, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the disorder around them and conclude just the opposite.
what makes discordianism really work for me is that on a practical level it tends to balance things out (as with the sacred chao, as an example). the game rules of life for that "malcontented hunchbrain" was that life is order. as a corrective, our game rules often say life is disorder (why not?). but stepping out of the game it's obviously it's both (and neither). what gets me is how it's easier to see that from the discord perspective rather than the order perspective. in fact it kills me.
QuoteDoing everything exactly opposite from "The Mainstream" is the same thing as doing everything exactly like "The Mainstream." You're still using What Everyone Else is Doing as your primary point of reference.
whoever said that...it's wonderful. i'm going rape it a little bit to suit this post, however :boot:
Doing everything exactly opposite from "Order" is the same thing as doing everything exactly like "Order." You're still using The Curse of Greyface as your primary point of reference. We discordians NEED ol' Graud for our point of refrence. Afterall, what are revolutionaries to do when the revolution is over?
what is important to me, (at least tonight as i pretend to be a discordian) i feel is to step back and look at the whole picture. order and disorder go together like back and front. inside and outside. warp and woof, tweedledee and tweedledum, subject and object, organism and environment etc and etc...
i know me in terms of all of you; and everybody.
and that blows my mind.
and that makes me smile. :D
I have nothing against Order. I use Order every day. Order is what helps me function in this business we call "life". If it weren't for the power of my brain to make patterns out of things, I'd be huddled in a corner all day, drooling.
But to think that my Ordering is "real", or somehow "better" than the immense amount of Disorder out there is a delusion.
Conversley (the ability to Order allows me to say "conversley", btw), to believe that Disorder is inherently better than Order is to once again be deluded; but this time, in the opposite direction.
Which is to say: I agree with you, Burns.
[edited to add]
And incidentally, desiring a bit of Order in your life isn't "going Grey" in my book. Emerson didn't say "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds," he said "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." One of the points, I feel, of discord is to understand that humans are inherently order-seeking, and to understand that fallacy and use it as a tool to navigate the waters of chaos.
It's only when you start believeing that Order is the Only Way of Things do you start going Grey.
That's what I believe the Chao is all about, realizing that Order and Disorder are both natural, and are both manifestations of Chaos. I myself am generally very orderly, but I also have strong streaks of kookiness to balance it out.
Discordians who only focus on the Disorder are missing out on a lot, IMO. Also, let us not forget that Eris is also the goddess of bureaucracy.
I tried to address the issues you bring up in my "Legend of Zaurn the Grey" by pointing out that a lot of so-called 'greyfaceism' is what makes us fantastic.
Order is stupid and boring.
I'm balancing out the opposition, so STFU.
Yeah. :lulz:
As a parent I understand all too well the need for Order. It is vitally important for kids to be able to enjoy their happy anarchy of childhood. Their fantasy worlds of play, and just being random with every day life. It's part of how they learn about what their mind and body can do. Order, then is necessary to teach them what they cannot do. Specifically, that which will cause them harm.
Jumping off of the couch and pretending to be Superman is great fun, and generally is relatively harmless. However, trying that same stunt from the roof of the house is obvisously going to end in tragedy. I have to employ Order in order to protect my daughter from harm from others and from herself.
It's certainly a constant balancing act. There are often times I find myself trying to be too Orderly and need to pull back. Just as their are times I realize I'm giving her a little too much rope. And I know it will be neverending so long as she is under my roof.
Who could ever invent anything new without order?
Incidentally, I'm not joking. If you all = a belief in a balance between order and disorder and yet society = order order order then you are contributing to an overabdundance of order within your larger communities because the overall role of disorder is diminished. Instead, if you were to have 2 extremes, then they would balance each other out, interpersonally.
Its very selfish, placing your own individual lives above those of everyone around you for your personal beliefs.
But if you look at society, it's clearly not orderorderorder.
Quote from: LMNO on February 22, 2008, 04:06:21 PM
But if you look at society, it's clearly not orderorderorder.
Its far more order than disorder, if by perception more than fact. By refusing to personally balance out that order with roughly equal support of disorder, are you not in fact only supporting the priveliged position that order has over disorder?
Fuck that. It's ORDER ORDER ORDER, baby. "They" should do their best to impose as much order as possible. They can do their best to make this world sterile and predictable and rational and gray. Then, at night, our kind comes out.
In a world of pin stripes and prison bars, revolution is the stuff of legend.
BAN gay marriage and abortion. Crucify those who try.
Anybody who drives the slightest bit faster than the speed limit should be thrown in JAIL.
You pay for stuff, then pay to get rid of it.
You get busted with an ounce of weed? That's 30 years hard labor, buddy.
You go to school to learn how to take standardized tests. That's all.
They're gonna put a listening device in your wallet.
They're gonna put a black iron prison bar right up your ass and just slowly heat it up until you can't take it anymore
eventually there's an epic breaking point.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on February 22, 2008, 04:08:55 PM
Fuck that. It's ORDER ORDER ORDER, baby. "They" should do their best to impose as much order as possible. They can do their best to make this world sterile and predictable and rational and gray. Then, at night, our kind comes out.
In a world of pin stripes and prison bars, revolution is the stuff of legend.
BAN gay marriage and abortion. Crucify those who try.
Anybody who drives the slightest bit faster than the speed limit should be thrown in JAIL.
You pay for stuff, then pay to get rid of it.
You get busted with an ounce of weed? That's 30 years hard labor, buddy.
You go to school to learn how to take standardized tests. That's all.
They're gonna put a listening device in your wallet.
They're gonna put a black iron prison bar right up your ass and just slowly heat it up until you can't take it anymore
eventually there's an epic breaking point.
BUT THATS NOT
BALANCED!
:lulz:
all I'm saying is
VOTE RICHARD NIXON IN 08
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 03:58:35 PM
Incidentally, I'm not joking. If you all = a belief in a balance between order and disorder and yet society = order order order then you are contributing to an overabdundance of order within your larger communities because the overall role of disorder is diminished. Instead, if you were to have 2 extremes, then they would balance each other out, interpersonally.
Its very selfish, placing your own individual lives above those of everyone around you for your personal beliefs.
If you only ever embrace disorder you will never get anything accomplished, and you know it very well.
Yes, disorder should be emphasized as a Discordian, because Order is pushed so much, but my first line stands.
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner? It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 04:15:57 PM
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner? It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.
I don't undertand the first line in your post.
Some order is necessary and some order is inherent.
Living in a culture and society requires some level of order, otherwise you have people breaking into your house in the dark of night, stealing your things, roughing up your family, etc. But one doesn't need to be closeminded to be civilized. One can operate within the bounds of society and still live in a boundless universe.
Again, if one values personal security, safety, and health, they need to have some order. I harken back to my earlier example of raising a child. It's not that it has to be an exact 50/50 balance. It's that there is enough order that a person can feel safe and secure.
Because it is that safety and security that is going to allow for an individual to contemplate and incorporate some Creative Disorder in their lives. When one has to focus on where their next meal is coming from, how they are going to survive from day to day, they can't even begin to worry or think about ratios and proportions of order/disorder.
So, to a certain degree, I see Order fostering Disorder. That is, as long as one is also contemplating the distinction between the Creative and the Destructive.
Yeah RWHN!
PD p.63
QuoteTHE CURSE OF GREYFACE AND THE
INTRODUCTION OF NEGATIVISM
To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder. To accomplish this, one need only accept creative disorder along with, and equal to, creative order, and also willing to reject destructive order as an undesirable equal to destructive disorder.
The Curse of Greyface included the division of life into order/disorder as the essential positive/negative polarity, instead of building a game foundation with creative/destructive as the essential positive/negative. He has thereby caused man to endure the destructive aspects of order and has prevented man from effectively participating in the creative uses of disorder. Civilization reflects this unfortunate division.
POEE proclaims that the other division is preferable, and we work toward the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable; and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable.
Seek the Sacred Chao - therein you will find the foolishness of all ORDER/DISORDER. They are the same!
Quote from: Hoopla on February 22, 2008, 04:18:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 04:15:57 PM
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner? It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.
I don't undertand the first line in your post.
I don't think I can be any clearer, sorry.
Also, Joshua Norton Cabal dogma =/= my dogma, I'd like to point out, since the PD is being quoted here. Not to mention, sometimes things need to be destroyed, a point clearly overlooked in their worldview.
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on February 22, 2008, 04:18:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 04:15:57 PM
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner? It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.
I don't undertand the first line in your post.
I don't think I can be any clearer, sorry.
I don't think your first line makes sense. Did you read it back?
No. Because my eyes already hurt from looking at the screen and I have about 100 more pages to read, and I'm not going to nitpick over every detail while my eyes boil in their sockets.
nevermind then
i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be. one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another. take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge. sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is. all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together. so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life? a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.
afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not? thats all i'm really sayin.
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 04:15:57 PM
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner? It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.
Yes! Use order and intelligence to spread disorder, create and plan to bring about greater chaos.(if i get your drift)
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 04:15:57 PM
Also, Joshua Norton Cabal dogma =/= my dogma, I'd like to point out, since the PD is being quoted here. Not to mention, sometimes things need to be destroyed, a point clearly overlooked in their worldview.
Lol, that's like saying the sunday comics is dogma.
Quote from: Diseris on February 22, 2008, 05:16:36 PM
Yes! Use order and intelligence to spread disorder, create and plan to bring about greater chaos.(if i get your drift)
I agree wholeheartedly. For maximum effect chaos and disorder need to be used together. Use one to hone the other. A surgical strike is often more powerful than a bumrush.
The imposition of order causes the escalation of disorder. Therefore by ordering somethings in your life you can help to increase the amount of chaos in the world.
Conversely though, the imposition of disorder causes the escalation of order. So Discordians are actually just working to keep themselves in business.
Quote from: Diseris on February 22, 2008, 05:16:36 PMLol, that's like saying the sunday comics is dogma.
Does it make a difference if several hundred different people quote it at you mindlessly and think they're proving a point?
Joshua Norton Cabal was just one among many, and the sooner people stop treating their writings as scripture, the better. Yes, they're good solid reference points for many of us, but people should not feel the need to use them to try and prove something about the nature of Discordianism.
For more, see: Prince Tao, Eris von Tartarus
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: Diseris on February 22, 2008, 05:16:36 PMLol, that's like saying the sunday comics is dogma.
Does it make a difference if several hundred different people quote it at you mindlessly and think they're proving a point?
Joshua Norton Cabal was just one among many, and the sooner people stop treating their writings as scripture, the better. Yes, they're good solid reference points for many of us, but people should not feel the need to use them to try and prove something about the nature of Discordianism.
For more, see: Prince Tao, Eris von Tartarus
I'll have to read that later, I was just happy to see place where a quote from the PD would work somewhere in this forum to at least partially explain something.
Seeing it paraphrased made me look it up as it seemed relevant, which is pretty rare around here.
dada.
Quote from: burnstoupee on February 22, 2008, 05:08:25 PM
i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be. one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another. take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge. sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is. all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together. so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life? a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.
afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not? thats all i'm really sayin.
And I'm pointing out everyone in this thread who says "order and disorder are equally important" or who goes on about "balance" are fundamentally dishonest.
They would have you believe that the forces should be complimentary, on an individual level, while totally ignoring the level of analysis above that, of society. If we treat society as a system, with polarities of order and disorder, and accept that commonly held views within culture, politics, religion etc have an impact on the entire system, then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that, since society is weight towards "order" that an equal movement opposing order and promoting "disorder" may bring the system back into equiblibrium and balance things out on a social level. And that would require individuals who are willing to forsake personal balance for the greater good, since otherwise the fanatics of "order" would be able to force society closer to their polar ideal, keeping a hegemonic monopoly within society. Their view is self-centered and ultimately selfish, because it basically says "fuck everyone else, because I'm
balanced" and ignores any ill effects from an Aneristic society a balanced person may suffer under.
The thing you can do most to help "balance" order and disorder is to bring disorder to levels complimentary with the percieved order within your local environment. Not jabber on like a New Age twerp about how you are thinking both order and disorder are bringing something to the table and should be both respected for their contributions to the world.
Fortunately, I don't buy into "balance" at all as an argument so I don't have to worry about any of that. But I'm not the one promoting it, merely the one taking it to its logical conclusion. If you want balance, promote disorder over order on a personal level.
It's a fucking seesaw.
Are seesaws fun when they are balanced?
No they are not, they are fun when they are seesawing.
It's just important to keep an eye out for that fat kid who like to sit on one side and keep you dangling up in the air.
Man I hate that fat kid.
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 10:56:53 PM
Quote from: burnstoupee on February 22, 2008, 05:08:25 PM
i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be. one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another. take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge. sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is. all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together. so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life? a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.
afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not? thats all i'm really sayin.
And I'm pointing out everyone in this thread who says "order and disorder are equally important" or who goes on about "balance" are fundamentally dishonest.
They would have you believe that the forces should be complimentary, on an individual level, while totally ignoring the level of analysis above that, of society. If we treat society as a system, with polarities of order and disorder, and accept that commonly held views within culture, politics, religion etc have an impact on the entire system, then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that, since society is weight towards "order" that an equal movement opposing order and promoting "disorder" may bring the system back into equiblibrium and balance things out on a social level. And that would require individuals who are willing to forsake personal balance for the greater good, since otherwise the fanatics of "order" would be able to force society closer to their polar ideal, keeping a hegemonic monopoly within society. Their view is self-centered and ultimately selfish, because it basically says "fuck everyone else, because I'm balanced" and ignores any ill effects from an Aneristic society a balanced person may suffer under.
The thing you can do most to help "balance" order and disorder is to bring disorder to levels complimentary with the percieved order within your local environment. Not jabber on like a New Age twerp about how you are thinking both order and disorder are bringing something to the table and should be both respected for their contributions to the world.
Fortunately, I don't buy into "balance" at all as an argument so I don't have to worry about any of that. But I'm not the one promoting it, merely the one taking it to its logical conclusion. If you want balance, promote disorder over order on a personal level.
you know i'm kind of with you on this. i find that on a personal level that my natural tendancy is toward order, rigidity and rules. that 'grey' has been pushed on me so much growing up that in order for any sense of liberation i have to actively work toward an attitude of discord. i see it in that. thats why in the original post i meantioned that, "what gets me is how it's easier to see that from the discord perspective rather than the order perspective. in fact it kills me." but for me to even choose a place to stand i have to first look at the whole picture. this is why i felt the need last night to step back.
perhaps you're right about the self-centered part...althought i'm not entirely sure. see i can imagine a viewpoint outside myself and imagine whats going on but ultimately i AM self-centered. ultimately i can only see the world from my own fixed position and for that i know when it comes down to the bare bones of life i'm going to be looking out for #1. so i suppose i'm not really sure how to help it. i realize when i go out i put on a nice show, being the lying, deceitful, egotistical, well hung, genuine fake that i am. so i feel like instead i should say "fuck everyone else because i'm imbalanced." i don't think going around telling people that one IS balanced is quite what i'm getting at.
at the moment i just think to plant the seeds of discord in their most effective places would be to utilize the relationship between order and disorder. you get more kills with carefully aimed shots than by peppering the battlefield with bullets. the "carefully aimed" is the order, the kills themselves are the disorder. it seems to me that for creating a useful method out of the relationship, both sides need to be considered. eris didn't just start throwing random apples (although that IS fun too, i'll admit that) she waited until the wedding.
toward the end of this post im wondering if there really is a disagreement of philosphy going on here but rather a disagreement about the method or style in which we partake. i can't find myself to say that you're wrong here because i see validity in your approach too.
I personally think the argument being put forward is both too simplistic and too...well, wishy-washy to be accurate. I also take great pleasure in tearing down subconscious Discordian dogma, and this is one of the things that has bugged me for a while, because it is something that seems to be repeated without much in the way of critical thought put into the argument. My interest in international polarity and systems theory is what alerted me to the contradiction, but I'm still working on advancing a more subtle theory. I'll reply in more detail later.
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 10:56:53 PM
Quote from: burnstoupee on February 22, 2008, 05:08:25 PM
i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be. one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another. take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge. sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is. all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together. so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life? a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.
afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not? thats all i'm really sayin.
And I'm pointing out everyone in this thread who says "order and disorder are equally important" or who goes on about "balance" are fundamentally dishonest.
They would have you believe that the forces should be complimentary, on an individual level, while totally ignoring the level of analysis above that, of society. If we treat society as a system, with polarities of order and disorder, and accept that commonly held views within culture, politics, religion etc have an impact on the entire system, then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that, since society is weight towards "order" that an equal movement opposing order and promoting "disorder" may bring the system back into equiblibrium and balance things out on a social level. And that would require individuals who are willing to forsake personal balance for the greater good, since otherwise the fanatics of "order" would be able to force society closer to their polar ideal, keeping a hegemonic monopoly within society. Their view is self-centered and ultimately selfish, because it basically says "fuck everyone else, because I'm balanced" and ignores any ill effects from an Aneristic society a balanced person may suffer under.
The thing you can do most to help "balance" order and disorder is to bring disorder to levels complimentary with the percieved order within your local environment. Not jabber on like a New Age twerp about how you are thinking both order and disorder are bringing something to the table and should be both respected for their contributions to the world.
Fortunately, I don't buy into "balance" at all as an argument so I don't have to worry about any of that. But I'm not the one promoting it, merely the one taking it to its logical conclusion. If you want balance, promote disorder over order on a personal level.
Ok, put like that, I agree with you. You changed my mind.
w00t.
I do like trying to make things fit from another perspective.
Now, for my next trick, I shall prove that the Pentagon is the holiest of all Discordian symbols.
I already believe that. But, please do so anyway.
Actually, I can't. I just made that up because I couldn't think of anything else to do at the moment.
Iconoclasm is SRS BUSINESS.
i need order in my life because otherwise i wouldn't get anything done, and i would forget important stuff and get into trouble if it weren't for my very ordered (at least, i try) system of scratchbooks, lists, mobile phone reminders/alarms and my agenda. i learned a lot from that book "Getting Things Done", and frankly, i can use all the tricks available. but this is just on a personal level.
on the other hand, i agree with Cain that you don't need to be disorderly yourself if you want to cause disorder. there's a difference between acting from a "disorderly angle" and causing disorder. that's why we don't really troll or weird-out eachother on this forum (at least not much).
i dunno about "balance". it's usually a good thing, i have found. i see the paradox you're trying to point out, though. but it doesn't quite ring true to me, yet. if you say that in order to create a large-scale balance, you might need to sacrifice your balance on a personal level, that seems a littlebit scary. it makes sense, but i don't like the conclusion, so maybe the idea of "balance is good and should exist on all levels" needs re-evaluation? :)
The thing of it is, though, we are all in a position where we can actually entertain whether or not to be orderly or disorderly. And why is that? Because we have enough order in our lives where we are able to be well fed, clothed, sheltered. Without order, we would not have those basic needs of life. Maslow, to me, reinforces the idea that some order is necessary for survival. Once physiological and security needs are met, which require a certain amount of order for them to occur, then the individual can, more easily, open up their mind to bigger issues outside of personal, biological well-being.
But sure, when we are personally secure and we have the ability to think about it, if we find where we can help bestow the virtues of disorder, we should do so. Creative Disorder, of course.
Again, coming at it from a parent, I think one of the most direct ways I can have an impact is in how I raise my daughter. To teach her about the importance of order that brings her safety and security AND disorder that will help fulfill more psychological and inner-self kinds of things. To teach her that the world and her experiences are malleable and she doesn't have to follow any one path set before her. And this won't just affect her. There's the possibility of her influencing her friends and others as she grows up.
Cain, I was thinking about this.
1. If imposition of order creates an escalation of disorder;
2. And if "society" is ordered;
3. Then wouldn't "society" be creating an equal amount of disorder all by itself, without anyone's help?
Or do you consider the escalation to be something that doesn't happen of it's own accord, that disorder must be escalated externally to balance the imposition of order?
And how exactly is that disorder created? Is it through human agents who reject the narrow definition of order being enforced? I do believe it is.
That's what I thought you were going to say.
And I can't really argue the point. Sometimes I feel that when Order's Rules are increased, the inherent contradictions and conflicts breed confusion, which then crystallizes into disorder when all Rules are applied equally.
Other times, I feel that since Order and Disorder do not exponentially increase, that at some point, the Order must be dismantled from the outside.
It may be more helpful to think of order and disorder as being possibilities within the relations between people, at least in the sense it is being discussed here. I have to say, it seems a sort of latent assumption that order and disorder are some sort of empheral forces locked in constant competition, and this is not only too dualist for me, its also too Platonic. While that may, possibly be the case in a metaphysical or scientific sense, we are dealing with a different sort of order and disorder when it comes to people, and new models may help understand it better.
I'm all for new models.
Note to self.
Idea for Satire: America's Next Top Model.
Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2008, 02:15:18 PM
Cain, I was thinking about this.
1. If imposition of order creates an escalation of disorder;
Isn't that only in a theoretically closed system?
The original text didn't say.
No, I mean in physics, doesn't the imposition of order only lead to the escalation of disorder in a closed system?
I could be talking out my ass here.
If you're talking about Entropy, then yes, I believe so.
Yes. I was just clarifying for my own head, by the way.
as far as i know about Entropy and Thermodynamics/Physics, they are indeed speaking about closed systems.
but i don't think that the Eristic/Aneristic Delusions follow from the laws of Entropy.
in fact, the only way to physically "impose" more order or disorder on a closed physical system, is to respectively decrease or increase the temperature of said system.
the only problem is that this scale, "temperature" is defined as the amount of order/disorder in a system. or, sort of, the energy that represents the bouncing around of the atoms in said system.
so that would create a sort of circular reasoning.
also, i think it's a lot more useful to consider the Eristic/Aneristic Delusions on a much, much larger scale. starting at the personal level (which is already a lot of orders of magnitude bigger than the average physics textbook thermodynamic system/model), and of course the societal/cultural level.
because at that scale it totally makes sense.
and we shouldn't depend on an analogy in Thermodynamics to argue the "law" of the Eristic/Aneristic Delusion anyway, because there's no reason to assume that what works in Thermodynamics works the same in Social Dynamics.
(leave that to the chaos reiki wizards and their quantums)
Quote from: Cain on February 22, 2008, 10:56:53 PM
Quote from: burnstoupee on February 22, 2008, 05:08:25 PM
i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be. one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another. take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge. sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is. all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together. so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life? a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.
afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not? thats all i'm really sayin.
And I'm pointing out everyone in this thread who says "order and disorder are equally important" or who goes on about "balance" are fundamentally dishonest.
They would have you believe that the forces should be complimentary, on an individual level, while totally ignoring the level of analysis above that, of society. If we treat society as a system, with polarities of order and disorder, and accept that commonly held views within culture, politics, religion etc have an impact on the entire system, then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that, since society is weight towards "order" that an equal movement opposing order and promoting "disorder" may bring the system back into equiblibrium and balance things out on a social level. And that would require individuals who are willing to forsake personal balance for the greater good, since otherwise the fanatics of "order" would be able to force society closer to their polar ideal, keeping a hegemonic monopoly within society. Their view is self-centered and ultimately selfish, because it basically says "fuck everyone else, because I'm balanced" and ignores any ill effects from an Aneristic society a balanced person may suffer under.
The thing you can do most to help "balance" order and disorder is to bring disorder to levels complimentary with the percieved order within your local environment. Not jabber on like a New Age twerp about how you are thinking both order and disorder are bringing something to the table and should be both respected for their contributions to the world.
Fortunately, I don't buy into "balance" at all as an argument so I don't have to worry about any of that. But I'm not the one promoting it, merely the one taking it to its logical conclusion. If you want balance, promote disorder over order on a personal level.
Ok i know I am about a page too late here, but this is a good argument, and my side is not being represented. My side is your all obviously wrong.
First cain it feels like your violating the spirit of what your saying when you use "pure" Kantian ordered logic to prove that chaos does not get enough face time, and to ratify that we must go nutzo in the streets for the benefit and balance of mankind.
On the other hand we have burns and he is saying that in our own lives we can choose to balance chaos and order. We might be driven to one side or the other but what is important is that we realize the balance of both.
Then we have a bunch of people switching sides back and forth and RWHN changing the topic to safety.
Are we talking about society or personal here? If its society I honestly think, cain, that we will be only going to wrong direction if we try to add a lot of chaos to our life in order to balance society. It may logically not make sense, but it is observable that the people who create by far the most chaos for the world are the once most organized. (religion, lawyers, schools, and governments)
On a personal level I think we all need to do away with our grey-o-meters. It seems like many of us keep looking down and if it starts to get into the grey we go, oh shit, "gobble gobble gobble." And yet we feel conferable when it goes into the utter psycho range. This isn't a contest, this really isn't a club that only the loonys can be a part of and if you don't pass our loony test, your out, look for something easier discodian isn't your thing.
Just stop caring how much chaos you project, and don't be afraid of how much order you might project. You really have
no choice you will always be balancing chaos and order.
I think you missed the part where I said I didn't care about balance, and was extending the logic of that argument to make a point about its worthlessness.
Now this is a nice bit of a fight :)
I'm gonna weigh in because no one seems to have posted a view that falls in line with my view. So here we go:
Order and Disorder seem, to me, as simply ways of perceiving things. We can perceive Starbuck's Pebbles as forming a pentagon, a pentagram, a five fingered hand of Eris, or some random pebbles on the ground. There's no inherent order or disorder involved here... only your own perception of the phenomenon.
We all perceive things as Ordered constantly, if not our communication on this forum would look like this:
Quote
QuoteHi, How are you?
Quote> HOIhcxewpjP0EW2-04U-?1
Quote
tHANWKCO39*652821EYNBXAKL?
QuoteNo, that's a bad idea...
While we can quote the PD like scripture to back some silly "balance of order and disorder", I fear that may be eating the menu. Consider the point Mal-2 made:
QuoteIf you can master nonsense as well as you have already learned to master sense, then each will expose the other for what it is: absurdity. From that moment of illumination, a man begins to be free regardless of his surroundings. He becomes free to play order games and change them at will. He becomes free to play disorder games just for the hell of it. He becomes free to play neither or both. And as the master of his own games, he plays without fear, and therefore without frustration, and therefore with good will in his soul and love in his being.
Both Apparent Order and Apparent Disorder are simply ways of perceiving and interacting with our environment. There appears nothing wrong with either perception, but it does seem problematic to forget that BOTH are just ways of looking at the data. For example, the species of the world are Ordered, we can look at the taxonomic tree... but we can also consider them as Disordered, because the taxonomic tree is just a model that generally groups critters in a useful way. There are things that don't fit, even among things that do fit... it sometimes requires a shoehorn.
The Aneristic Delusion has an opposite... just as some see Apparent Order as the TRUTH, some see Apparent Disorder as TRUTH. Yet, both appear to be placing the order and disorder there themselves.
Order and Disorder can be THE way you operate in Life, but I think Mal-2 was pretty clear that he was advocating both of those positions as games, games that we can be free to play as we Will. Games of Disorder, Games of Order, Games of WOMP, Games of Internet Safaris, Games of GASMS, Games of Trolling, Games of Poster Plastered Streets, Games of Working a Day Job and Games of Managing our Finance.
Some of the time, Disorder seems useful.
Some of the time, Order seems useful.
All of the time, we should be Free to choose what we think as most useful for the situation at hand.
Quote from: Cain on March 04, 2008, 02:41:30 PM
I think you missed the part where I said I didn't care about balance, and was extending the logic of that argument to make a point about its worthlessness.
I was arguing your argument, not your position.
i like the way you put that, ratatosk
I use myself. :|
Gently.
Order is as needed as chaos is. In fact, order can create chaos more surprising then chaos. You expcet chaos when you're in a chaotic environment. But, whenever something odd happens in an completely ordered environment, most will become shocked. "Why aren't things going the way we expected?" they ask, "We followed all the rules."
And the Discordians laugh. "SNAFU, guys."
Quote from: K-Scar on March 10, 2008, 05:25:02 PM
You expcet chaos when you're in a chaotic environment. But, whenever something odd happens in an completely ordered environment, most will become shocked. "Why aren't things going the way we expected?" they ask, "We followed all the rules."
And the Discordians laugh. "SNAFU, guys."
I like this.