I know, FOX link, bear with me, but naturally it WOULD be the first to break this.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/01/georgia-state-student-forms-white-student-union/
QuoteFreshman Patrick Sharp says he started the club so that students of European and Euro-American descent can celebrate their shared history and culture. He said members can also discuss issues that affect white people, such as immigration and affirmative action.
:kingmeh:
Wasn't there already a thread on this here? Or did I see it somewhere else? Either way . . . Georgia is a screwy place. It's trying too hard to be Tucson.
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/freshman-starts-informal-white-student-union-at-ge/nY887/
QuoteGeorgia State is highly diverse, with whites comprising 38 percent of the student body, followed by blacks at 35 percent, Asians at 12 percent and Latinos at 7 percent.
"If we are already minorities on campus and are soon to be minorities in this country why wouldn't we have the right to advocate for ourselves and have a club just like every other minority?" said Sharp, 18. "Why is it when a white person says he is proud to be white he's shunned as a racist?"
I don't think he knows what 'minority' means.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on August 01, 2013, 11:49:05 PM
Wasn't there already a thread on this here? Or did I see it somewhere else? Either way . . . Georgia is a screwy place. It's trying too hard to be Tucson.
I may have missed it.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on August 01, 2013, 11:49:05 PM
Wasn't there already a thread on this here? Or did I see it somewhere else? Either way . . . Georgia is a screwy place. It's trying too hard to be Tucson.
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/freshman-starts-informal-white-student-union-at-ge/nY887/
QuoteGeorgia State is highly diverse, with whites comprising 38 percent of the student body, followed by blacks at 35 percent, Asians at 12 percent and Latinos at 7 percent.
"If we are already minorities on campus and are soon to be minorities in this country why wouldn't we have the right to advocate for ourselves and have a club just like every other minority?" said Sharp, 18. "Why is it when a white person says he is proud to be white he's shunned as a racist?"
I don't think he knows what 'minority' means.
No he's right about that part, the percentage of people in the US that are white is shrinking. If you count white hispanics as non white, which many people do, then we will be a minority in a few decades. Being the largest minority on campus is still being a minority.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 12:28:15 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on August 01, 2013, 11:49:05 PM
Wasn't there already a thread on this here? Or did I see it somewhere else? Either way . . . Georgia is a screwy place. It's trying too hard to be Tucson.
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/freshman-starts-informal-white-student-union-at-ge/nY887/
QuoteGeorgia State is highly diverse, with whites comprising 38 percent of the student body, followed by blacks at 35 percent, Asians at 12 percent and Latinos at 7 percent.
"If we are already minorities on campus and are soon to be minorities in this country why wouldn't we have the right to advocate for ourselves and have a club just like every other minority?" said Sharp, 18. "Why is it when a white person says he is proud to be white he's shunned as a racist?"
I don't think he knows what 'minority' means.
No he's right about that part, the percentage of people in the US that are white is shrinking. If you count white hispanics as non white, which many people do, then we will be a minority in a few decades. Being the largest minority on campus is still being a minority.
BAWWW, opressed minority!
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#White_AmericansWhite Americans (non-Hispanic/Latino and Hispanic/Latino) are the racial majority, with a 72% share of the U.S. population, according to the 2010 US Census.[6] Hispanic and Latino Americans amount to 15% of the population, making up the largest minority.[5] Black Americans are the largest racial minority, amounting to nearly 13% of the population.[4][6] The White, non-Hispanic or Latino population make up 63% of the nation's total.[5]
Minority and Oppressed Minority are rather different and that's the crucial distinction that these folks seem to be missing.
Whites were a minority in Apartheid Era South Africa, it was still the blacks who needed more equal rights.
72% and *shrinking*.
Maybe one day we will be less than 50%!
Then we will be, like, a super minority!
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 12:48:48 AM
Minority and Oppressed Minority are rather different and that's the crucial distinction that these folks seem to be missing.
Whites were a minority in Apartheid Era South Africa, it was still the blacks who needed more equal rights.
Im not taking a personal jab at you Permas, Im attacking the idea you are reiterating somewhat carelessly it would seem, which is that in a soon to be point whites will be a minority in America, which in reality does not seem even close to happen... and the logical consequence of it is something about reducing immigration, etc
Im sorry if im being brief, some chaps calling me to watch a movie, I can elaborate later if i wasnt clear.
Funny, I thought every day was white history day and white pride day.
Quote from: The Johnny on August 02, 2013, 02:46:33 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 12:48:48 AM
Minority and Oppressed Minority are rather different and that's the crucial distinction that these folks seem to be missing.
Whites were a minority in Apartheid Era South Africa, it was still the blacks who needed more equal rights.
Im not taking a personal jab at you Permas, Im attacking the idea you are reiterating somewhat carelessly it would seem, which is that in a soon to be point whites will be a minority in America, which in reality does not seem even close to happen... and the logical consequence of it is something about reducing immigration, etc
Im sorry if im being brief, some chaps calling me to watch a movie, I can elaborate later if i wasnt clear.
Well, the statistic you cited included white Hispanics as white, I am not sure what the ratio is when you don't do that. Why that would justify changing immigration, or anything else of the sort, I do not know, there is nothing particularly desirable about having a white majority, even for whites.
In what way are white Hispanics non-white? :?
Is that like, how Irish aren't white, and Italians aren't white, and Polish aren't white? Or is it some other kind of non-white white?
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 04:07:36 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on August 02, 2013, 02:46:33 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 12:48:48 AM
Minority and Oppressed Minority are rather different and that's the crucial distinction that these folks seem to be missing.
Whites were a minority in Apartheid Era South Africa, it was still the blacks who needed more equal rights.
Im not taking a personal jab at you Permas, Im attacking the idea you are reiterating somewhat carelessly it would seem, which is that in a soon to be point whites will be a minority in America, which in reality does not seem even close to happen... and the logical consequence of it is something about reducing immigration, etc
Im sorry if im being brief, some chaps calling me to watch a movie, I can elaborate later if i wasnt clear.
Well, the statistic you cited included white Hispanics as white, I am not sure what the ratio is when you don't do that. Why that would justify changing immigration, or anything else of the sort, I do not know, there is nothing particularly desirable about having a white majority, even for whites.
I think it says hispanic/latino are not included whites clearly? or what am i missing?
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#White_Americans
White Americans (non-Hispanic/Latino and Hispanic/Latino) are the racial majority, with a 72% share of the U.S. population, according to the 2010 US Census.[6] Hispanic and Latino Americans amount to 15% of the population, making up the largest minority.[5] Black Americans are the largest racial minority, amounting to nearly 13% of the population.[4][6] The White, non-Hispanic or Latino population make up 63% of the nation's total.[5]
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 02, 2013, 05:59:40 AM
Is that like, how Irish aren't white, and Italians aren't white, and Polish aren't white? Or is it some other kind of non-white white?
Jews?
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Quote from: Suu on August 01, 2013, 11:27:47 PM
I know, FOX link, bear with me, but naturally it WOULD be the first to break this.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/01/georgia-state-student-forms-white-student-union/
QuoteFreshman Patrick Sharp says he started the club so that students of European and Euro-American descent can celebrate their shared history and culture. He said members can also discuss issues that affect white people, such as immigration and affirmative action.
:kingmeh:
What shared history and culture? Europe's a checkerboard of countries that have unique histories and don't even speak the same fucking language. "Euro-American" history is one long string of we don't like these new white people, let's fuck them over. Issues that affect white people? Like what, getting a literal get out of jail free card in some cases where a black person who committed the same crime will be essentially punished for the both of them? Fucking idiots.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 02, 2013, 05:59:40 AM
Is that like, how Irish aren't white, and Italians aren't white, and Polish aren't white? Or is it some other kind of non-white white?
Sometimes we aren't. Depends on if we were out in the sun for longer than 3 minutes.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
This may cause some communicative issues with people who are using definition of the term as it is commonly used in the social sciences, where a "minority" group has been described as "a group of people who, because of their physical or cultural characteristics, are singled out from the others in the society in which they live for differential and unequal treatment, and who therefore regard themselves as objects of collective discrimination."
Britannica.com says "a culturally, ethnically, or racially distinct group that coexists with but is subordinate to a more dominant group. As the term is used in the social sciences, this subordinancy is the chief defining characteristic of a minority group. As such, minority status does not necessarily correlate to population. In some cases one or more so-called minority groups may have a population many times the size of the dominating group, as was the case in South Africa under apartheid".
Maybe taboo the word "minority" and people can find different way to express what they're trying to say.
From a layman's perspective, the social sciences "definition" of the word seems pretty retarded. Oppressed =/= minority.
(cue somebody with an emotionally-loaded frame of reference regarding the term "minority" telling me what a privileged and insensitive asshole I am)
Minority tends to go hand-in-hand with being opressed, but yeah, the term itself "minority" is a purely quantitative designation of a group being less than the "majority".
So i suggest making a distinction between a TENDENCY and an EQUIVALENCE for clear communication's sake, in other words, let's consider "minority" a purely numerical category.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 02, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
From a layman's perspective, the social sciences "definition" of the word seems pretty retarded. Oppressed =/= minority.
(cue somebody with an emotionally-loaded frame of reference regarding the term "minority" telling me what a privileged and insensitive asshole I am)
I think it's more a term used to say a group has the minority share of the social power, rather than fewer people.
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 08:17:09 AM
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 02, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
From a layman's perspective, the social sciences "definition" of the word seems pretty retarded. Oppressed =/= minority.
(cue somebody with an emotionally-loaded frame of reference regarding the term "minority" telling me what a privileged and insensitive asshole I am)
I think it's more a term used to say a group has the minority share of the social power, rather than fewer people.
LMAO i eat my own words
QuoteUsage of the term is applied to various situations and civilizations within history, despite its popular mis-association with a numerical, statistical minority.
So let everyone use its own definition, as long as its clearly stated, since both numerical and social power are valid meanings.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 02, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
From a layman's perspective, the social sciences "definition" of the word seems pretty retarded. Oppressed =/= minority.
(cue somebody with an emotionally-loaded frame of reference regarding the term "minority" telling me what a privileged and insensitive asshole I am)
It gets even more retarded. Look at say, the EDL. They bitch in a most hilarious fashion because they seem to think they're an oppressed majority. Add a feeling that THEY are becoming the majority and you get all sorts of nonsense.
I think it's some kind of fear reaction. New-don't understand-ok as long as there's only one or two in a ghetto somewhere. As the numbers increase, the phobia increases.
Also, Vice did a couple of excellent articles on the OP.
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/vice-news/white-student-union
(Video link, article below)
Quoteatthew Heimbach insists he's not a racist. This comes as a surprise to his fellow students at Towson University, in the suburbs of Baltimore, where Matthew has formed a group called the White Student Union that advocates for "persons of European heritage"—what most of us call "white people." It also comes as a surprise to the African American students who feel targeted by the night patrols the senior history major began conducting in March. The patrols target supposed "black predators," Matthew wrote on the WSU's website, citing (among others) a case in which an African American man pulled out a knife and his penis, and wagged both at a co-ed couple who were copulating in a parking garage. "White Southern men," he wrote, "have long been called to defend their communities when law enforcement and the State seem unwilling to protect our people."
Also surprised by Matthew's claim that he's not a racist is Duane Davis. "You are a fat, racist little bitch," the scrappy, dreadlocked man told Matthew one sunny Tuesday this April. There was a rally going on, organized by the Student Government Association and the Black Student Union. In a field behind Duane and Matthew, about 100 students protested the White Student Union by reading unity-themed slam poetry from a microphone. When Matthew showed up on the edge of the crowd, a dozen protesters had come to confront him. Down the façade of a parking garage, a banner unfurled reading, WSU GTFO (translation: White Student Union Get the Fuck Out).
QuoteMatthew has the look of someone who's been bullied his whole life: he puffs out his chest to hide an abundant belly, wears unfashionable drugstore spectacles, and on this day sported what vaguely resembled a Morrissey T-shirt.
"Who is that on your shirt?" Duane said, jabbing Matthew in the chest. The onlookers leaned in to hear the answer.
"Ian Smith," Matthew said, before rattling off the biography of the former prime minister of Rhodesia, a white supremacist who resisted efforts to end white rule there in the 60s. "He's one of my heroes."
A svelte woman in a dashiki interrupted. "If you were dying and needed a heart transplant," she asked, "would you accept one from a black person?"
Matthew was silent. He cracked an awkward smile. From the microphone, the lyrics to John Lennon's "Give Peace a Chance" were heard.
QuoteBut at the conference, Jared, who looks a bit like Ted Danson and is a fan of foppish sport coats and collared shirts, dropped his polished tone for a more incendiary message. When he asked the 150 or so people there how many were first-time attendees, more than half raised their hands. From a stage, he explained the ultimate goal of his efforts. "We want a homeland where we are a majority," he said. "We have a government of traitors... White people who express a desire for a homeland are labeled as haters." He ended his speech to applause: "Think of secession...Think of hometowns. We have to build them ourselves... Survival is the first law. We have no choice but to keep fighting."
Matthew had flown down from Baltimore to attend. He stood up and asked a question. "The federal government will continue its genocide of our people," he said. "Where should we go? What's the best way to create a homeland?"
"It will work itself out organically in ways we can't predict," Jared responded. "White anger may erupt in places we haven't heard of."
Quote"We're heading toward a dissolution of the United States," Paddy told his fellow patrollers. "But in a sense, that could be for the better because it may lead to a white ethno-state. That's ultimately what we want. We want an ethno-state for our people, a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world."
"What would the criteria of citizenship be for this ethno-state?" I asked.
"I'm just going to come out and say it," Paddy said. "The criteria of citizenship would be based on race. It would be based on [being] white. Absolutely. One hundred percent."
I turned to Matthew. In the spiritedness of the moment, the group seemed to be dropping its restrained tone. And Matthew was worked up, too. "If there are white people... who want to remain in this multicultural cesspool," he said, "let them. We don't want them. Let us mind our own business. Let us stand up for our own people, and create our own nation and new homeland for Europeans around the entire globe. So give us a homeland, and if you want to sell yourself and your children down the river of multiculturalism, you can do so."
After that, on the way back to the parking garage to get our cars and call it a night, we finally witnessed a crime. We came upon three white students on a dark path, obviously engaged in a drug deal.
"Look at that," Paddy said as we watched the transaction.
"And everyone tries to say there's no crime at Towson," Matthew said, shaking his head. "This is not a safe campus."
"What are you going to do?" I asked.
No one intervened.
Short version seems to be the standard idiot fascist agenda with marginally better PR but still not enough sense to actually disguise the bigoted nature of the thing.
On a lighter note, I really wish people who insist on having a "100% white" state or somesuch idiocy take an immediate and public DNA test to determine that there has never been anything other than 100% whiteness in their heritage.
Failure must result in public apology or suicide.
There's fair points in those articles Junken, but, do you happen to notice all the ad-hominem attacks? That kind of bothers me because how he dresses or looks shouldn't be a factor, we're talking about racism, not fashion sense.
Fair point. I tend to let those slide because, vice. I probably let those through a little easier as insults in an article about guys like these. Will pay more attention to that in the future, thanks.
Just taking the bare facts and quotes is damning enough really. Will try and stick to that a little more with Vice posts.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on August 01, 2013, 11:49:05 PM
Wasn't there already a thread on this here? Or did I see it somewhere else? Either way . . . Georgia is a screwy place. It's trying too hard to be Tucson.
Running too fast the wrong direction. While racism exists here, as it exists everywhere, it isn't the principle driving force in our problems.
"Multicultural cesspool."
:lulz:
You guys do see what's going on here, right?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 03:15:03 PM
"Multicultural cesspool."
:lulz:
You guys do see what's going on here, right?
Yep. :x
Quote from: stelz on August 02, 2013, 04:08:13 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 03:15:03 PM
"Multicultural cesspool."
:lulz:
You guys do see what's going on here, right?
Yep. :x
It's basically 3 generations of pants-shitting fear breaking loose because the Zimmerman verdict has made them feel like their time has come. There are many fires in the hills, and the hooting of the po'buckers is deafeningly shrill. But the truth is that their day is over, which is why they're scared. Demographics clearly state which direction things are headed, and these pinheads are absolutely terrified that 400+ years of abuse may finally come home to say "hello".
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Well, then.
Let's say you have 3 subgroups:
Whites at 38%
Blacks at 30%
Hispanics at 28%
Asians at 4%
Who is the majority?
Another thing.
When an oppressed minority forms an association, it can either be for mutual benefit or for revenge.
When the oppressing majority forms an association, it is always - no matter how they paint it - a means to extend or prolong their oppression.
And these particular shitnecks haven't wasted any time:
Quote"It will work itself out organically in ways we can't predict," Jared responded. "White anger may erupt in places we haven't heard of."
Quote"I'm just going to come out and say it," Paddy said. "The criteria of citizenship would be based on race. It would be based on [being] white. Absolutely. One hundred percent."
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 06:30:18 PM
And these particular shitnecks haven't wasted any time:
Quote"It will work itself out organically in ways we can't predict," Jared responded. "White anger may erupt in places we haven't heard of."
Quote"I'm just going to come out and say it," Paddy said. "The criteria of citizenship would be based on race. It would be based on [being] white. Absolutely. One hundred percent."
*headdesk*
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
"Less than half" is not usually how the word "minority" is defined, in this context. even setting issues of power and privilege aside for a moment, a "minority" group is usually one which makes up a smaller percentage of the total population than another group. Not a smaller percentage of the population than all other groups combined.
I am not saying that whites can't be a minority. I'm just saying that your definition is incorrect.
Of course, when you are talking about social minorities, then the word is also defined by social power and influence; so a group that has a smaller population is not a social minority if they have the majority of the social power.
I often wonder, when people attempt to derail something like this with (incorrect) nit-picky quibbles, why they would attempt to do so.
Either they're channelling Enki, or they have an agenda.
That's just my opinion, of course.
Also this:
Quote"We want a homeland where we are a majority," he said. "We have a government of traitors... White people who express a desire for a homeland are labeled as haters." He ended his speech to applause: "Think of secession...Think of hometowns. We have to build them ourselves... Survival is the first law. We have no choice but to keep fighting."
Guess it sucks if you're a non-whitey where Jared wants to play Aryan Washington. Because nothing says "a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world" like ethnic cleansing.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 06:28:14 PM
Another thing.
When an oppressed minority forms an association, it can either be for mutual benefit or for revenge.
When the oppressing majority forms an association, it is always - no matter how they paint it - a means to extend or prolong their oppression.
Bingo.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 06:38:55 PM
I often wonder, when people attempt to derail something like this with (incorrect) nit-picky quibbles, why they would attempt to do so.
Either they're channelling Enki, or they have an agenda.
That's just my opinion, of course.
Kinda having similar thoughts.
Quote from: Cain on August 02, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Guess it sucks if you're a non-whitey where Jared wants to play Aryan Washington. Because nothing says "a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world" like ethnic cleansing.
BINGO. THIS. RIGHT THERE.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Well, then.
Let's say you have 3 subgroups:
Whites at 38%
Blacks at 30%
Hispanics at 28%
Asians at 4%
Who is the majority?
There isn't one. There's 3 sizeable minorities and a tiny minority (and apparently no middle easterners at all)
Quote from: Cain on August 02, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Also this:
Quote"We want a homeland where we are a majority," he said. "We have a government of traitors... White people who express a desire for a homeland are labeled as haters." He ended his speech to applause: "Think of secession...Think of hometowns. We have to build them ourselves... Survival is the first law. We have no choice but to keep fighting."
Guess it sucks if you're a non-whitey where Jared wants to play Aryan Washington. Because nothing says "a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world" like ethnic cleansing.
I always figure folks like this should go back to Europe.
We've got enough racist idiots over here. You can keep them, thanks.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Well, then.
Let's say you have 3 subgroups:
Whites at 38%
Blacks at 30%
Hispanics at 28%
Asians at 4%
Who is the majority?
There isn't one. There's 3 sizeable minorities and a tiny minority (and apparently no middle easterners at all)
OMG did you read anything at all that other people posted about the meaning of "minority"? Because now you're using your own made-up definition that no one else uses, except racists who don't understand the term and try to use it to mean "less than 50%". Good lord.
(http://i.imgur.com/vfBkxal.png)
Here, maybe this will help:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=social+minority+group
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:28:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 02, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Also this:
Quote"We want a homeland where we are a majority," he said. "We have a government of traitors... White people who express a desire for a homeland are labeled as haters." He ended his speech to applause: "Think of secession...Think of hometowns. We have to build them ourselves... Survival is the first law. We have no choice but to keep fighting."
Guess it sucks if you're a non-whitey where Jared wants to play Aryan Washington. Because nothing says "a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world" like ethnic cleansing.
I always figure folks like this should go back to Europe.
Because Europe doesn't have any brown people? :?
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 03, 2013, 04:53:26 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:28:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 02, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Also this:
Quote"We want a homeland where we are a majority," he said. "We have a government of traitors... White people who express a desire for a homeland are labeled as haters." He ended his speech to applause: "Think of secession...Think of hometowns. We have to build them ourselves... Survival is the first law. We have no choice but to keep fighting."
Guess it sucks if you're a non-whitey where Jared wants to play Aryan Washington. Because nothing says "a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world" like ethnic cleansing.
I always figure folks like this should go back to Europe.
Because Europe doesn't have any brown people? :?
Even my dad's hometown has a black guy, and they're in the middle of nowhere.
"Minority" technically means "less than half" in places like Congress. But even then, it isn't really referring to numbers, it's referring to power. The "Minority Party" is the party that doesn't get to to call the shots. So while the etymological history of the word "minority" might come from a definition of numbers, its usage and just about every context it is used in today refers to being at the mercy of another group: whether that other group is larger per se, or just more powerful.
In terms of race, "minority" means -- let's face it -- non-white. Not necessarily because there are MORE whites, but because it is the whites who call the shots. How is this hard to understand?
If you want to talk about political power in a democracy, it's disingenuous to talk about percentages of the whole population anyway. The whole population isn't where political power is exercised. If you want to get a better idea of who is a minority and who isn't, look at the legislative, judicial, and executive offices that are in charge. And if you look there, I'll bet you will always find that whites comprise a much larger majority than their respective percentage of the general population.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 03, 2013, 04:53:26 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:28:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 02, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Also this:
Quote"We want a homeland where we are a majority," he said. "We have a government of traitors... White people who express a desire for a homeland are labeled as haters." He ended his speech to applause: "Think of secession...Think of hometowns. We have to build them ourselves... Survival is the first law. We have no choice but to keep fighting."
Guess it sucks if you're a non-whitey where Jared wants to play Aryan Washington. Because nothing says "a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world" like ethnic cleansing.
I always figure folks like this should go back to Europe.
Because Europe doesn't have any brown people? :?
No, cause Europe has actual homelands that racist shits can be nostalgic about in a way that makes any sense. proclaiming part of the US, which is all stolen land settled by people who have become mixed race anyway, as a homeland for some sort of pure white race doesn't make sense to anyone but the sort of jackasses who think they need a white student union.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 09:47:36 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 03, 2013, 04:53:26 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:28:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 02, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Also this:
Quote"We want a homeland where we are a majority," he said. "We have a government of traitors... White people who express a desire for a homeland are labeled as haters." He ended his speech to applause: "Think of secession...Think of hometowns. We have to build them ourselves... Survival is the first law. We have no choice but to keep fighting."
Guess it sucks if you're a non-whitey where Jared wants to play Aryan Washington. Because nothing says "a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world" like ethnic cleansing.
I always figure folks like this should go back to Europe.
Because Europe doesn't have any brown people? :?
No, cause Europe has actual homelands that racist shits can be nostalgic about in a way that makes any sense. proclaiming part of the US, which is all stolen land settled by people who have become mixed race anyway, as a homeland for some sort of pure white race doesn't make sense to anyone but the sort of jackasses who think they need a white student union.
Europe is also mostly stolen and settled by people who have become mixed race, depending on how far back you go. Except maybe Iceland, I think they're still pretty pure/uninvaded.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Well, then.
Let's say you have 3 subgroups:
Whites at 38%
Blacks at 30%
Hispanics at 28%
Asians at 4%
Who is the majority?
There isn't one. There's 3 sizeable minorities and a tiny minority (and apparently no middle easterners at all)
The point.
You just missed it.
Permagos, i still have the hypothesis that you are infected by some conservative memes, which show to light in things like "racists should go back to Europe", because it takes for granted that racists are of white/european ascendency and that europe is indeed for white-euros...
Quote from: The Johnny on August 04, 2013, 04:29:12 AM
Permagos, i still have the hypothesis that you are infected by some conservative memes, which show to light in things like "racists should go back to Europe", because it takes for granted that racists are of white/european ascendency and that europe is indeed for white-euros...
Most conservatives I talk to insist that blacks and hispancs are more racist than whites. I have seen writings by black and Hispanic racists, but never actually met one, I'm in favor of Racist blacks going back to Africa and Racist Hispanics going back to Mexico too though. I'd mostly like racists to go somewhere else so I don't have to deal with them.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 04, 2013, 04:41:26 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on August 04, 2013, 04:29:12 AM
Permagos, i still have the hypothesis that you are infected by some conservative memes, which show to light in things like "racists should go back to Europe", because it takes for granted that racists are of white/european ascendency and that europe is indeed for white-euros...
Most conservatives I talk to insist that blacks and hispancs are more racist than whites. I have seen writings by black and Hispanic racists, but never actually met one, I'm in favor of Racist blacks going back to Africa and Racist Hispanics going back to Mexico too though. I'd mostly like racists to go somewhere else so I don't have to deal with them.
"As long as X bad thing happens to Y group that doesn't incude me, I couln't care less for X"
Can you not notice that the core idea is still "X race people should go back to their respective countries"?
I know you have mutated the idea in a certain sense, but it still has strong resonations with it.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 04, 2013, 04:41:26 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on August 04, 2013, 04:29:12 AM
Permagos, i still have the hypothesis that you are infected by some conservative memes, which show to light in things like "racists should go back to Europe", because it takes for granted that racists are of white/european ascendency and that europe is indeed for white-euros...
Most conservatives I talk to insist that blacks and hispancs are more racist than whites. I have seen writings by black and Hispanic racists, but never actually met one, I'm in favor of Racist blacks going back to Africa and Racist Hispanics going back to Mexico too though. I'd mostly like racists to go somewhere else so I don't have to deal with them.
Uh huh. What if the Black and/or Hispanic racists don't want to go?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 04, 2013, 05:12:27 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 04, 2013, 04:41:26 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on August 04, 2013, 04:29:12 AM
Permagos, i still have the hypothesis that you are infected by some conservative memes, which show to light in things like "racists should go back to Europe", because it takes for granted that racists are of white/european ascendency and that europe is indeed for white-euros...
Most conservatives I talk to insist that blacks and hispancs are more racist than whites. I have seen writings by black and Hispanic racists, but never actually met one, I'm in favor of Racist blacks going back to Africa and Racist Hispanics going back to Mexico too though. I'd mostly like racists to go somewhere else so I don't have to deal with them.
Uh huh. What if the Black and/or Hispanic racists don't want to go?
Stop me if I'm way off base here but all I see Pergamos doing is mocking the racist "go back to where you came from" mantra by jokingly suggesting that whites go back to Europe. I'm not really picking up any deeper "conservative" agenda driving this line of attack, which is a fairly universal tactic in the textbook American Progressive repertoire of counter-racism maneuvers.
The entire thread to this point is about the racism of whites vs. non-whites and the term "minority" being
by definition off-limits to whites (at least in America), so Pergamos' use of "racism is a white thing" as a context for his [obviously tongue-in-cheek, as far as I can tell] statements is, at least at this point in this thread, hardly off base from what's been going on up to this point.
Having said that, I would have to oppose any kind of "racist relocation" program for two reasons. First, because I don't even want to
think about what might happen if there was a country somewhere full of people who were completely OK with the idea of eliminating anyone among them who didn't fit the right description, and then when they ran out of domestic scapegoats, turned their fucked up gaze on people outside their borders. Secondly, I think it's important to keep racists among us to A) dilute their influence, and B) provide easily recognizable and readily available examples to remind people what happens when you let insecurity and resentment turn you into complete monster.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 04, 2013, 04:41:26 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on August 04, 2013, 04:29:12 AM
Permagos, i still have the hypothesis that you are infected by some conservative memes, which show to light in things like "racists should go back to Europe", because it takes for granted that racists are of white/european ascendency and that europe is indeed for white-euros...
Most conservatives I talk to insist that blacks and hispancs are more racist than whites. I have seen writings by black and Hispanic racists, but never actually met one, I'm in favor of Racist blacks going back to Africa and Racist Hispanics going back to Mexico too though. I'd mostly like racists to go somewhere else so I don't have to deal with them.
Why would racist Hispanics go back to Mexico? Why not Spain? Since that's where they CAME FROM.
Quote from: Suu on August 04, 2013, 04:10:37 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Well, then.
Let's say you have 3 subgroups:
Whites at 38%
Blacks at 30%
Hispanics at 28%
Asians at 4%
Who is the majority?
There isn't one. There's 3 sizeable minorities and a tiny minority (and apparently no middle easterners at all)
The point.
You just missed it.
He's just going to continue ignoring the fact that he's insisting on using the word "minority" completely wrong in this context. Because, you know, ook ook. It might be
embarrassing to admit he had it wrong. But not at all embarrassing to pretend he was right and refuse to acknowledge his mistake. No, that's not cringingly embarrassing at all.
:lulz:
Quote from: Pergamos on August 04, 2013, 04:41:26 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on August 04, 2013, 04:29:12 AM
Permagos, i still have the hypothesis that you are infected by some conservative memes, which show to light in things like "racists should go back to Europe", because it takes for granted that racists are of white/european ascendency and that europe is indeed for white-euros...
Most conservatives I talk to insist that blacks and hispancs are more racist than whites. I have seen writings by black and Hispanic racists, but never actually met one, I'm in favor of Racist blacks going back to Africa and Racist Hispanics going back to Mexico too though. I'd mostly like racists to go somewhere else so I don't have to deal with them.
You don't have to deal with black or Hispanic racists though. Clearly.
There's your first clue about that whole "social power" thing.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 04, 2013, 12:30:17 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 09:47:36 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 03, 2013, 04:53:26 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:28:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 02, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
Also this:
Quote"We want a homeland where we are a majority," he said. "We have a government of traitors... White people who express a desire for a homeland are labeled as haters." He ended his speech to applause: "Think of secession...Think of hometowns. We have to build them ourselves... Survival is the first law. We have no choice but to keep fighting."
Guess it sucks if you're a non-whitey where Jared wants to play Aryan Washington. Because nothing says "a strong nation-state that's well-defended but at peace with the world" like ethnic cleansing.
I always figure folks like this should go back to Europe.
Because Europe doesn't have any brown people? :?
No, cause Europe has actual homelands that racist shits can be nostalgic about in a way that makes any sense. proclaiming part of the US, which is all stolen land settled by people who have become mixed race anyway, as a homeland for some sort of pure white race doesn't make sense to anyone but the sort of jackasses who think they need a white student union.
Europe is also mostly stolen and settled by people who have become mixed race, depending on how far back you go. Except maybe Iceland, I think they're still pretty pure/uninvaded.
This. You don't even have to go back that far.
Twid,
thinking about World War II
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 02, 2013, 06:42:25 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 06:38:55 PM
I often wonder, when people attempt to derail something like this with (incorrect) nit-picky quibbles, why they would attempt to do so.
Either they're channelling Enki, or they have an agenda.
That's just my opinion, of course.
Kinda having similar thoughts.
Some people are just big on accurate communication and like to make sure terms are clarified if they are unsure of the manner in which that term is being used.
I could turn right back around and say that people who are super-quick to jump to conclusions about what's in someone else's head based on a few sentences and try to cast them in a certain light based on those assumptions must have an agenda. Frankly, it's kind of ugly when people do that and it certainly doesn't encourage honest and open communication about a subject when one participant makes it known that if you ask the wrong questions or say the wrong things you will be immediately assumed to be some sort of BADWRONG. So maybe we can knock it off with the ugly insinuations for no reason and just get back to the meat of the discussion?
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 03, 2013, 04:40:15 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Well, then.
Let's say you have 3 subgroups:
Whites at 38%
Blacks at 30%
Hispanics at 28%
Asians at 4%
Who is the majority?
There isn't one. There's 3 sizeable minorities and a tiny minority (and apparently no middle easterners at all)
OMG did you read anything at all that other people posted about the meaning of "minority"? Because now you're using your own made-up definition that no one else uses, except racists who don't understand the term and try to use it to mean "less than 50%". Good lord.
Jesus tittyfucking Christ. you ARE aware that not everyone here is a sociology student and that "less than 50%" is the commonly accepted colloquial definition of the word "minority", right?
Because this business of implying that someone is a racist because they don't understand how you're using a term is really fucked up.
Quote from: V3X on August 03, 2013, 07:27:02 PM
"Minority" technically means "less than half" in places like Congress. But even then, it isn't really referring to numbers, it's referring to power. The "Minority Party" is the party that doesn't get to to call the shots. So while the etymological history of the word "minority" might come from a definition of numbers, its usage and just about every context it is used in today refers to being at the mercy of another group: whether that other group is larger per se, or just more powerful.
In terms of race, "minority" means -- let's face it -- non-white. Not necessarily because there are MORE whites, but because it is the whites who call the shots. How is this hard to understand?
If you want to talk about political power in a democracy, it's disingenuous to talk about percentages of the whole population anyway. The whole population isn't where political power is exercised. If you want to get a better idea of who is a minority and who isn't, look at the legislative, judicial, and executive offices that are in charge. And if you look there, I'll bet you will always find that whites comprise a much larger majority than their respective percentage of the general population.
Thank you for that explanation that didn't involve calling anyone who didn't already know this a racist.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 04, 2013, 08:25:02 PM
Jesus tittyfucking Christ. you ARE aware that not everyone here is a sociology student and that "less than 50%" is the commonly accepted colloquial definition of the word "minority", right?
I was actually unaware of this so I appreciate the clarification. I guess that got glossed over or I was absent that day.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 04, 2013, 08:22:43 PM
So maybe we can knock it off with the ugly insinuations for no reason and just get back to the meat of the discussion?
Damn Carnivore! :argh!:
JUST KIDDING!
...I just think that a lot of whites are not aware of the stuff they do not have to put up with because they are white.
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/
QuoteThe results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record, white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.
Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality: Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one's chances of finding a job.
The above is not the first time this type of study has been done.
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html
That's one, but there's a number of others.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 04, 2013, 08:25:02 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 03, 2013, 04:40:15 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Well, then.
Let's say you have 3 subgroups:
Whites at 38%
Blacks at 30%
Hispanics at 28%
Asians at 4%
Who is the majority?
There isn't one. There's 3 sizeable minorities and a tiny minority (and apparently no middle easterners at all)
OMG did you read anything at all that other people posted about the meaning of "minority"? Because now you're using your own made-up definition that no one else uses, except racists who don't understand the term and try to use it to mean "less than 50%". Good lord.
Jesus tittyfucking Christ. you ARE aware that not everyone here is a sociology student and that "less than 50%" is the commonly accepted colloquial definition of the word "minority", right?
Because this business of implying that someone is a racist because they don't understand how you're using a term is really fucked up.
Did you not read THE WHOLE REST OF THE THREAD where everybody patiently tried to explain about 20 times, including links, the ACTUAL AND CORRECT DEFINITION OF MINORITY IN A SOCIAL CONTEXT?
And frankly, I've met maybe four people IN MY LIFE who did not know that definition. Maybe I'm a special snowflake, but in my experience the
only people who try to use the straight-up population definition when they're talking about political issues (like organizing for representation, eg. forming a student union) are Right Wingers whining about white rights.
Try reading the posts from OLDEST to NEWEST so that you have a sense of the chronological order in which explanations were given before I started to suspect that Pergamos has some kind of latent racist bullshit going on in his head.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 05, 2013, 04:04:03 PM
Try reading the posts from OLDEST to NEWEST so that you have a sense of the chronological order in which explanations were given before I started to suspect that Pergamos has some kind of latent racist bullshit going on in his head.
I'm not convinced that "latent racist" tendencies should be met with the same level of disgust and vitriol that
outright racism warrants. Isn't there a qualitative difference between "I tend to think a certain way because that is how I have been conditioned" and "I think a certain way despite mountains of plain evidence"? After all, Pergamos at worst is displaying oversimplified thinking in terms of race, I haven't seen any kind of superiority talk and in fact he has made it pretty clear he's anti-racism, even if his thinking is contaminated with latent racism.
Isn't it a little extreme to throw him to the wolves at this point as if he's some kind of unabashed Klansman? If the default reaction to people spouting things they haven't quite worked out yet is going to be fire and brimstone like it's a crime to start a journey you haven't finished yet, then what's the point in saying anything at all?
What gets me is that the numerical definition of majority, while accurate in one sense, is used to attempt to downplay the power the sociological majority enjoys...Whether the person arguing the point is doing so consciously or not.
There's really no other reason to dig heels in and argue definitions in this sort of thing.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 05, 2013, 04:40:33 PM
What gets me is that the numerical definition of majority, while accurate in one sense, is used to attempt to downplay the power the sociological majority enjoys...Whether the person arguing the point is doing so consciously or not.
There's really no other reason to dig heels in and argue definitions in this sort of thing.
That's the truth, but I think "whether the person arguing the point is doing so consciously or not" deserves more attention.
Latent racism is another word for Privilege, right? It is unjust and unfair and tragic, but none of that injustice exists as far as the privileged person is concerned. It isn't that they don't
care, exactly, it's that they don't
see it. Privilege is a condition -- not a disease, not a natural state, but a condition that comes along with being born into a world that immediately begins programming children. Privileged people are not "evil" for simply failing to naturally recognize, transcend, and reject that privilege any more than a kid born in the Amazon is "evil" for not naturally growing up to speak Dutch all by himself. So coming at privileged people from a position of "hey fuck you for not seeing your blind spots" is ridiculous at best. Not that it's bad to show people the things they're missing -- but being angry and disrespectful by default (not that this is the case specifically here) isn't going to be very productive.
Quote from: V3X on August 05, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
Latent racism is another word for Privilege, right?
That's kind of where I was heading.
QuoteIt is unjust and unfair and tragic, but none of that injustice exists as far as the privileged person is concerned. It isn't that they don't care, exactly, it's that they don't see it. Privilege is a condition -- not a disease, not a natural state, but a condition that comes along with being born into a world that immediately begins programming children. Privileged people are not "evil" for simply failing to naturally recognize, transcend, and reject that privilege any more than a kid born in the Amazon is "evil" for not naturally growing up to speak Dutch all by himself. So coming at privileged people from a position of "hey fuck you for not seeing your blind spots" is ridiculous at best. Not that it's bad to show people the things they're missing -- but being angry and disrespectful by default (not that this is the case specifically here) isn't going to be very productive.
This is why I haven't offered him a white sheet and hood.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 05, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 05, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
Latent racism is another word for Privilege, right?
That's kind of where I was heading.
QuoteIt is unjust and unfair and tragic, but none of that injustice exists as far as the privileged person is concerned. It isn't that they don't care, exactly, it's that they don't see it. Privilege is a condition -- not a disease, not a natural state, but a condition that comes along with being born into a world that immediately begins programming children. Privileged people are not "evil" for simply failing to naturally recognize, transcend, and reject that privilege any more than a kid born in the Amazon is "evil" for not naturally growing up to speak Dutch all by himself. So coming at privileged people from a position of "hey fuck you for not seeing your blind spots" is ridiculous at best. Not that it's bad to show people the things they're missing -- but being angry and disrespectful by default (not that this is the case specifically here) isn't going to be very productive.
This is why I haven't offered him a white sheet and hood.
HA! Actually, offering the time-honored and official garments of the racist elite to a latent racist might be a useful way to bring their attention to the ways they are behaving. I imagine setting up a clothesline outside this White Students' Union and hanging a bunch of Klan ponchos from it would send a fun message.
Quote from: V3X on August 05, 2013, 05:36:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 05, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 05, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
Latent racism is another word for Privilege, right?
That's kind of where I was heading.
QuoteIt is unjust and unfair and tragic, but none of that injustice exists as far as the privileged person is concerned. It isn't that they don't care, exactly, it's that they don't see it. Privilege is a condition -- not a disease, not a natural state, but a condition that comes along with being born into a world that immediately begins programming children. Privileged people are not "evil" for simply failing to naturally recognize, transcend, and reject that privilege any more than a kid born in the Amazon is "evil" for not naturally growing up to speak Dutch all by himself. So coming at privileged people from a position of "hey fuck you for not seeing your blind spots" is ridiculous at best. Not that it's bad to show people the things they're missing -- but being angry and disrespectful by default (not that this is the case specifically here) isn't going to be very productive.
This is why I haven't offered him a white sheet and hood.
HA! Actually, offering the time-honored and official garments of the racist elite to a latent racist might be a useful way to bring their attention to the ways they are behaving. I imagine setting up a clothesline outside this White Students' Union and hanging a bunch of Klan ponchos from it would send a fun message.
The difference here is that the people in the articles are overt racists, and wouldn't care.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 05, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 05, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
Latent racism is another word for Privilege, right?
That's kind of where I was heading.
QuoteIt is unjust and unfair and tragic, but none of that injustice exists as far as the privileged person is concerned. It isn't that they don't care, exactly, it's that they don't see it. Privilege is a condition -- not a disease, not a natural state, but a condition that comes along with being born into a world that immediately begins programming children. Privileged people are not "evil" for simply failing to naturally recognize, transcend, and reject that privilege any more than a kid born in the Amazon is "evil" for not naturally growing up to speak Dutch all by himself. So coming at privileged people from a position of "hey fuck you for not seeing your blind spots" is ridiculous at best. Not that it's bad to show people the things they're missing -- but being angry and disrespectful by default (not that this is the case specifically here) isn't going to be very productive.
This is why I haven't offered him a white sheet and hood.
No, but you did suspect him of "having an agenda" in a context that made it pretty clear what you were getting at.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 05, 2013, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 04, 2013, 08:25:02 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 03, 2013, 04:40:15 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 03, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on August 02, 2013, 06:48:08 AM
Quote from: Pæs on August 02, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
Pergamos, can you define the word "minority" as used in this conversation?
group that is less than half of the total.
So whites are in fact a minority of the students of Georgia State, being only 38% of the student body. Meanwhile as a percentage of American Citizens whites will remain the majority for a few more decades.
Well, then.
Let's say you have 3 subgroups:
Whites at 38%
Blacks at 30%
Hispanics at 28%
Asians at 4%
Who is the majority?
There isn't one. There's 3 sizeable minorities and a tiny minority (and apparently no middle easterners at all)
OMG did you read anything at all that other people posted about the meaning of "minority"? Because now you're using your own made-up definition that no one else uses, except racists who don't understand the term and try to use it to mean "less than 50%". Good lord.
Jesus tittyfucking Christ. you ARE aware that not everyone here is a sociology student and that "less than 50%" is the commonly accepted colloquial definition of the word "minority", right?
Because this business of implying that someone is a racist because they don't understand how you're using a term is really fucked up.
Did you not read THE WHOLE REST OF THE THREAD where everybody patiently tried to explain about 20 times, including links, the ACTUAL AND CORRECT DEFINITION OF MINORITY IN A SOCIAL CONTEXT?
And frankly, I've met maybe four people IN MY LIFE who did not know that definition. Maybe I'm a special snowflake, but in my experience the only people who try to use the straight-up population definition when they're talking about political issues (like organizing for representation, eg. forming a student union) are Right Wingers whining about white rights.
Well, now you've met 5. And no amount of yelling and berating people is going to change the fact that the definition of the term was obviously muddled and/or misunderstood for most of this thread. It's not a big deal at all except for the part where you seemed to have this immediate and unwarranted reaction of implying people were racist for not understanding what you were saying and/or not being sure about the accuracy of the term you were using. I mean, keep doing that sort of shit all you want. Nobody's telling you you can't. But it's not going to encourage people to want to have an honest dialogue with you about this sort of stuff. It's an incredibly unproductive way of trying to get your point across as well as being pretty damn rude.
I am having a disconnect between this explanation of muddled definitions and being told that the definition was "retarded" when I first identified semantics as the source of fail in this thread.
I believe the exact thing you were told was that it was retarded from a laymen's point of view.
IOW, someone who doesn't study sociology and has always assumed that "minority" means "less than half".
And frankly, I still think that given the etymology of the word, the sociological definition is kind of dumb and makes confusion inevitable. but apparently that's just because I'm a racist and probably a bit dim to boot.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: here's a big sack of Everybody Go Fuck Yourselves.
Assholes.
Quote from: V3X on August 05, 2013, 04:35:08 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 05, 2013, 04:04:03 PM
Try reading the posts from OLDEST to NEWEST so that you have a sense of the chronological order in which explanations were given before I started to suspect that Pergamos has some kind of latent racist bullshit going on in his head.
I'm not convinced that "latent racist" tendencies should be met with the same level of disgust and vitriol that outright racism warrants. Isn't there a qualitative difference between "I tend to think a certain way because that is how I have been conditioned" and "I think a certain way despite mountains of plain evidence"? After all, Pergamos at worst is displaying oversimplified thinking in terms of race, I haven't seen any kind of superiority talk and in fact he has made it pretty clear he's anti-racism, even if his thinking is contaminated with latent racism.
Isn't it a little extreme to throw him to the wolves at this point as if he's some kind of unabashed Klansman? If the default reaction to people spouting things they haven't quite worked out yet is going to be fire and brimstone like it's a crime to start a journey you haven't finished yet, then what's the point in saying anything at all?
What on EARTH makes you think that was the same level of disgust and vitriol I would have leveled at someone displaying outright racism?
:lulz:
NOBODY is doing the shit you're accusing us of doing. You're fucking pissed because some assumption you've been making aligns with a right wing Sacred Cow. Yeah, I tend to associate ignoring the difference between "social majority" and "simple majority" with the right-wing racist agenda. At the very least, not knowing is a symptom of privilege, as it's a pretty good indication that you have never had a reason to know.
SO SORRY.
I didn't start to wonder whether Pergamos had some latent racism issues until he refused to acknowledge various people patiently pointing out the difference over and over and over again. And you you fuckers are up my butt for "insinuating" there might be an unsavory reason for that refusal.
Come on. :lol:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 05, 2013, 04:40:33 PM
What gets me is that the numerical definition of majority, while accurate in one sense, is used to attempt to downplay the power the sociological majority enjoys...Whether the person arguing the point is doing so consciously or not.
There's really no other reason to dig heels in and argue definitions in this sort of thing.
Annnd
this.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 05, 2013, 09:06:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 05, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 05, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
Latent racism is another word for Privilege, right?
That's kind of where I was heading.
QuoteIt is unjust and unfair and tragic, but none of that injustice exists as far as the privileged person is concerned. It isn't that they don't care, exactly, it's that they don't see it. Privilege is a condition -- not a disease, not a natural state, but a condition that comes along with being born into a world that immediately begins programming children. Privileged people are not "evil" for simply failing to naturally recognize, transcend, and reject that privilege any more than a kid born in the Amazon is "evil" for not naturally growing up to speak Dutch all by himself. So coming at privileged people from a position of "hey fuck you for not seeing your blind spots" is ridiculous at best. Not that it's bad to show people the things they're missing -- but being angry and disrespectful by default (not that this is the case specifically here) isn't going to be very productive.
This is why I haven't offered him a white sheet and hood.
No, but you did suspect him of "having an agenda" in a context that made it pretty clear what you were getting at.
Yeah, and I'm standing by that, though I don't think that Permagos is overtly or consciously racist.
I think it's more of a reflexive "my tribe" thing. Everyone does that to one degree or another, whether or not they realize it. Trick is to realize it and mitigate it.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on August 05, 2013, 09:30:39 PM
And frankly, I still think that given the etymology of the word, the sociological definition is kind of dumb and makes confusion inevitable. but apparently that's just because I'm a racist and probably a bit dim to boot.
I'm sorry, but that argument holds no water. Do you know the etymology of "minority"? The term is used the same way in politics, it's been used that way long before sociology existed as a field of study. I'm sorry English refuses to acquiesce to your ideas of what words "should" mean.
Quote
minority (n.) Look up minority at Dictionary.com
1530s, "condition of being smaller," from Middle French minorité (15c.), or directly from Medieval Latin minoritatem (nominative minoritas), from Latin minor (see minor (adj.)). Meaning "state of being under legal age" is from 1540s; that of "smaller number or part" is from 1736. The meaning "group of people separated from the rest of a community by race, religion, language, etc." is from 1919, originally in an Eastern European context.
The condition of being smaller can refer to any number of things: lesser in age (a minor person) lesser in power (a minority group) lesser in number (a population minority) or smaller than another group (a simple minority).
I took a year of sociology, and they didn't teach this there. I think most people learn it in their social or political science classes in high school.
ECH, if I thought Permagos was an outright racist, I would be talking to him in a very, very different manner. It would involve a lot more of these:
:lulz:
And a lot less typing.
Just saying.
Also, for the record, responding to "what he's saying sounds racist and makes me wonder if he has some latent racist ideas because it's the same argument a lot of racist people make to support their racism" with "FUCK YOU HOW DARE YOU" is not a terribly effective way to dissipate that skepticism.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 05, 2013, 10:24:30 PM
Also, for the record, responding to "what he's saying sounds racist and makes me wonder if he has some latent racist ideas because it's the same argument a lot of racist people make to support their racism" with "FUCK YOU HOW DARE YOU" is not a terribly effective way to dissipate that skepticism.
I remember my response to "privilege" prior to having it spelled out for me. :lulz:
Perhaps we should get Corbeat et Renard up in here.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 05, 2013, 10:25:35 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 05, 2013, 10:24:30 PM
Also, for the record, responding to "what he's saying sounds racist and makes me wonder if he has some latent racist ideas because it's the same argument a lot of racist people make to support their racism" with "FUCK YOU HOW DARE YOU" is not a terribly effective way to dissipate that skepticism.
I remember my response to "privilege" prior to having it spelled out for me. :lulz:
Perhaps we should get Corbeat et Renard up in here.
:lulz:
So, just to be clear, under the definition of minority being used here, would white people in apartheid era South Africa be considered a minority or not?
I know the word has a ton of baggage, and that's why it gets used by people like these student union ass hats, because it gets tied up with privilege and oppressed minorities need to be protected through things like the ERA, anti-discrimination laws and so forth, but if a tiny fraction of the population (who holds power) is not a minority then the word has become jargon. It confuses instead of communicating, and also seems to carry some very strong connotations of either racism or anti-racism depending on who is using it and how.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 12, 2013, 04:53:47 AM
So, just to be clear, under the definition of minority being used here, would white people in apartheid era South Africa be considered a minority or not?
I know the word has a ton of baggage, and that's why it gets used by people like these student union ass hats, because it gets tied up with privilege and oppressed minorities need to be protected through things like the ERA, anti-discrimination laws and so forth, but if a tiny fraction of the population (who holds power) is not a minority then the word has become jargon. It confuses instead of communicating, and also seems to carry some very strong connotations of either racism or anti-racism depending on who is using it and how.
Sigh.
As many people have tried to explain over and over and over again, the word "minority" doesn't just refer to counting numbers of people. It can also mean that a group holds a minority in different kinds of ways, not just in the one-two-three kind of way but also in the political power kind of way.
It can mean the least amount of decision-making power.
It can mean the least number of people.
It can mean less than half.
It can mean a group that is smaller than other groups.
A group can be a minority in one way, but not in other ways.
Can you think of any other words that can take on different specific meanings based on context? I bet you can!
It can even mean that somebody has less than the number of years of age required for legal majority. In the US, that is either 18 or 21, depending on the context.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 12, 2013, 04:53:47 AM
So, just to be clear, under the definition of minority being used here, would white people in apartheid era South Africa be considered a minority or not?
No. They still held the social power.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 12, 2013, 04:53:47 AMbut if a tiny fraction of the population (who holds power) is not a minority then the word has become jargon. It confuses instead of communicating
You seem to be assuming that your preferred definition is the default and that any variation on that is some strange scarce-known use of the word.
In parliamentary procedure and in business, it just so happens that the rules for those domains dictate that the statistical majority (the subset which contains more than half of the set's elements) is the majority holder of the power.
In sociology, there are no such rules in place. A smaller group can hold the most power, making them a statistical minority and but not a sociological minority. Some might call them a dominant minority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority) but in the context of race relations (as with the White Student Union) it seems sensible to use the term as it is most commonly applied to race relations.
It has a lot of definitions. When a word has a lot of definitions, context has to inform the one you select.
What you're being told is that in the context of race relations, it is reasonable to expect the word "minority" to refer to social power and that it's common that those who contest this use of the word and attempt to argue semantics do so with a racist agenda or bias.