Steve Jobs is dead. A sad day for hipster douchebags everywhere (apparently also for people so old that they can still remember back to when Steve Jobs and Apple Computers actually had real innovative ideas), but not for me :|, I can't stand Apple, and couldn't care less that Mephistopheles finally decided to collect on his end of their bargain.
Anybody else have any opinions?
EDIT: on rereading this while not so sleep-deprived I suppose this does seem to be a bit unduly harsh towards Steve Jobs. Just because his death will hurt the hated :argh!: Apple corporation doesn't change the fact that by the standards of CEOs of major corporations he was a relatively decent guy.
EDIT: Also, just found out that apparently the Westboro Baptist Church doesn't like him, so I guess that's another thing in his favor.
I'm not normally a sensitive flower, but I think this is a real douchebag thread. Fuck off.
Too soon?
I don't like Apple either. In fact I have boycotted them my whole life, but Steve Jobs himself isn't the embodiment of evil. I am not going to celibate his death. I was happy when Bin Laden was finny killed, but all the people getting exited over an entrepreneur's demise has me for the first time actually feeling bad for the guy.
I'm not a sensitive guy. I'll laugh at a good joke about the guy, but being happy that someone is dead is a little too callous for me.
I don't care about the guy one way or another really.
But the least you could have done was try to be funny about it. But you didn't. You didn't try.
Also, for better or worse, many of those products have changed the way people use and think about computers. All kinds of people use those things, so many people. Not just hipster douchebags
I don't have any particular warm feelings for Steve Jobs, nor do I have any problems with using Apple products (what's to hate? It's not like they're made from the bones of starving infants. Just don't buy them) but the man didn't perpetuate evil, he was a successful entrepreneur who contributed tremendously to the growth of technology, and FFS he died of cancer at 56. I mean, you want to dance on his grave for some reason, but my suggestion is that if you're that big of a prick you should have the courtesy to keep it to yourself because most people with, you know, normal non-sociopathic empathy will be put off by it. There are a lot of truly evil people in the world, and the "I'm so jaded I'm gonna celebrate the death of a guy who was part of a historically major innovative team in the tech world" hipster douchedom you just pulled here is really, in my Discordia, just loathsome.
Why are you even bothering with this guy? I mean, other than the cheap yuks. He's pretty much demonstrated that he's a non-entity, as far as I am concerned, and pretty much the worst kind of guy who I don't actively loathe (which is a different beast from hate).
He's a nothing, empty space behind keyboard somewhere. Who cares?
Quote from: Alty on October 06, 2011, 04:32:45 AM
I don't care about the guy one way or another really.
But the least you could have done was try to be funny about it. But you didn't. You didn't try.
Also, for better or worse, many of those products have changed the way people use and think about computers. All kinds of people use those things, so many people. Not just hipster douchebags
His company's innovations are all very good, but lately they've been moving away from innovation and towards cheap tacky overhyped trendiness (and cheap knockoffs of the Blackberry misrepresented as novel and innovative products); and their early groundbreaking innovations are cheapened by the fact that they never improve upon them (for example, Macintosh computers were still shipping with one-button mice by default as recently as 2005). That said, I suppose that it is grossly unfair of me to lay all of the faults of Apple Computers entirely on Steve Jobs.
10/5 NEVER FORGET! KEEP THAT APPLE FLYING!
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 04:49:40 AM
Why are you even bothering with this guy? I mean, other than the cheap yuks. He's pretty much demonstrated that he's a non-entity, as far as I am concerned, and pretty much the worst kind of guy who I don't actively loathe (which is a different beast from hate).
He's a nothing, empty space behind keyboard somewhere. Who cares?
Yeah, I think I'm with you. Especially after reading his last post. Who the fuck cares how many mouse buttons Macs were shipping with six years ago? This dude's a chump.
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:09:13 AM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 04:49:40 AM
Why are you even bothering with this guy? I mean, other than the cheap yuks. He's pretty much demonstrated that he's a non-entity, as far as I am concerned, and pretty much the worst kind of guy who I don't actively loathe (which is a different beast from hate).
He's a nothing, empty space behind keyboard somewhere. Who cares?
Yeah, I think I'm with you. Especially after reading his last post. Who the fuck cares how many mouse buttons Macs were shipping with six years ago? This dude's a chump.
Seriously, this guy's posts are like solid blocks of fail that I can't even bring myself to read, because I might get more stupid the more I try and understand.
Also, he says foolish things too frequently, and I have better things to do than argue with fools.
I was going to disagree with you until you reminded me that those mice don't have enough buttons. I hope his whole family is eaten by cats.
I was going to reply. I did. I had this big thing about this and that.
Then I deleted it, ate some beef, and peed.
wait...
Quote
(and cheap knockoffs of the Blackberry misrepresented as novel and innovative products)
Are you talking about the iPhone? Are you saying the iPhone is a knockoff of a Blackberry?
Paging Dr. Dunning, Dr. Kruger. Paging Dr. Dunning, Dr. Kruger.
You guys. :lulz:
Quote from: Penumbral on October 06, 2011, 04:24:06 AM
I don't like Apple either. In fact I have boycotted them my whole life, but Steve Jobs himself isn't the embodiment of evil. I am not going to celibate his death. I was happy when Bin Laden was finny killed, but all the people getting exited over an entrepreneur's demise has me for the first time actually feeling bad for the guy.
I'm not a sensitive guy. I'll laugh at a good joke about the guy, but being happy that someone is dead is a little too callous for me.
This right here.
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:43:51 AM
I don't have any particular warm feelings for Steve Jobs, nor do I have any problems with using Apple products (what's to hate? It's not like they're made from the bones of starving infants. Just don't buy them) but the man didn't perpetuate evil, he was a successful entrepreneur who contributed tremendously to the growth of technology, and FFS he died of cancer at 56. I mean, you want to dance on his grave for some reason, but my suggestion is that if you're that big of a prick you should have the courtesy to keep it to yourself because most people with, you know, normal non-sociopathic empathy will be put off by it. There are a lot of truly evil people in the world, and the "I'm so jaded I'm gonna celebrate the death of a guy who was part of a historically major innovative team in the tech world" hipster douchedom you just pulled here is really, in my Discordia, just loathsome.
THIS. x1000000
R.I.P. Steve Jobs
I can think of nothing more hipster douchebaggy than logging onto the internet a short time after someone has died to declare how you essentially hated them and are glad they died....because they make electronic products you don't like.
Perfect storm of douchebaggery, hipster entitlement and techno-nerd fashionable whining, in one neat little package.
Yeah, so he might have spent his latter years pumping out a bunch of fancy mp3 players and cellphones and charging more money for them than was theoretically imaginable but lets not forget the guy's actual claim to fame. He invented windows. No shitting - the whole thing with the mouse? And clicking? You'd still be typing commands at a prompt of it wasn't for apple.
I'll raise a glass to the dude. He grabbed life by the balls and refused to compromise and he made a fuckton of cash doing it.
Quote from: Penumbral on October 06, 2011, 04:24:06 AMI am not going to celibate his death.
You mean "celebrate". Unless you're BH.
Aslo wht you and Nigel and Cain and P3NT said.
(though I'm not really sure about the windows ... I know it was Apple, but I'm not sure if it was Steve Jobs ...)
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 11:28:15 AM
I can think of nothing more hipster douchebaggy than logging onto the internet a short time after someone has died to declare how you essentially hated them and are glad they died....because they make electronic products you don't like.
Perfect storm of douchebaggery, hipster entitlement and techno-nerd fashionable whining, in one neat little package.
This is what I was trying to say earlier, but could not articulate through a sleepy brain. The op is continuation of the ancient, retarded narrative based on the presumption that software and hardware choices have moral value.
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:16:11 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on October 06, 2011, 04:04:28 AM
Too soon?
Too inhumanly callous. DIAF.
Wait. No one laughed at this? Calling someone inhumanly callous, and then instructing them to Die In A Fire?
Oh, come on. That's
funny.
No? No one?
Oh, well.
While Jobs' passing give me another reason to tell cancer to go fuck themselves, I must be honest and say that Apple's trend from letting users open up and fiddle with things and program it as they saw fit (Apple IIe, anyone?), to becoming a restrictive, proprietary hardware marketing behemoth has always saddended me. I mean, preventing the use of Adobe Flash for every iPhone user, just because he didn't like it?
PS - Fuck you, cancer.
I'm probably the polar opposite of a techno-geek so I have no feelings one way or another for any of the Apple products or technologies. But I do have to give some props to Jobs. Dude was sitting on piles of cash when he found out he had cancer. He could've retired to some sunny island somewhere and die surrounded by wealth and luxury.
Instead, he said, Fuck that! and continued to work. He didn't pack it in, he kept on a truckin. You gotta respect that.
+1 to every comment in this thread not made by the OP.
@OP, Dude, WTF? The man suffered and died a painful death, leaving behind a grieving wife and kids, and you're happy about it because you aren't a fan of the products his company makes?
Fuck you.
Wait yo, he never said he was happy about it, and I quote ":|," ya turkeys.
Me no have no strong feelings about this either, really. Although he helped leaps in technology, those leaps will continue. The good news is, now I can evoke his spirit to fix my iPod. My sympathies to those who are sad.
Quote from: Epimetheus on October 06, 2011, 03:00:01 PM
Wait yo, he never said he was happy about it, and I quote ":|," ya turkeys.
Me no have no strong feelings about this either, really. Although he helped leaps in technology, those leaps will continue. The good news is, now I can evoke his spirit to fix my iPod. My sympathies to those who are sad.
You will note that he edited his post, much like you did.
Except he did it after a couple of hours and a number of replies.
My bad. Thanks. Carry on.
Quote from: Epimetheus on October 06, 2011, 03:00:01 PM
Wait yo, he never said he was happy about it, and I quote ":|," ya turkeys.
Me no have no strong feelings about this either, really. Although he helped leaps in technology, those leaps will continue. The good news is, now I can evoke his spirit to fix my iPod. My sympathies to those who are sad.
Well, except for saying outright the only people who would be upset were hipster douchebags, and that Jobs sold his soul to a demon, no, he didn't say anything which would suggest he was happy about it, no.
YOU.
FUCKING.
IDIOT.
Christ, what is it with the apparent infestion of derp on the boards? Reading inbetween the lines, motherfucker, have you heard of it? It pains me to even have to write this.
I'm no great fan of Apple, but if I was going to be dickish about some guy's death, I'd at least attempt to be
funny about it. PDS failed on those grounds because...well, he fails at pretty much everything he does here.
I wonder if Gates will attend the funeral. The war between those two lifted technology faster and further that I think it would have gone without them.
RIP Steve, thanks for the memories.
The first computer my family had that could do much of anything was a nice, affordable Apple II+, way back in the year dot. I spent 5 fun years with half of my friends (the other half were gearheads) geeking out like a mad bastard, pushing our own limits in programming logic and coding.
Oh, and I could play video games without hemmoraging quarters.
So long, Mr Jobs. Thanks for the fun.
And fuck PDS in the ass with a potted cactus.
Quote from: The Rev on October 06, 2011, 03:21:04 PM
I wonder if Gates will attend the funeral. The war between those two lifted technology faster and further that I think it would have gone without them.
Quote from: Bill Gates
http://www.thegatesnotes.com/Personal/Steve-Jobs
I'm truly saddened to learn of Steve Jobs' death. Melinda and I extend our sincere condolences to his family and friends, and to everyone Steve has touched through his work.
Steve and I first met nearly 30 years ago, and have been colleagues, competitors and friends over the course of more than half our lives.
The world rarely sees someone who has had the profound impact Steve has had, the effects of which will be felt for many generations to come.
For those of us lucky enough to get to work with him, it's been an insanely great honor. I will miss Steve immensely.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 03:49:21 PM
Quote from: The Rev on October 06, 2011, 03:21:04 PM
I wonder if Gates will attend the funeral. The war between those two lifted technology faster and further that I think it would have gone without them.
Quote from: Bill Gates
http://www.thegatesnotes.com/Personal/Steve-Jobs
I'm truly saddened to learn of Steve Jobs' death. Melinda and I extend our sincere condolences to his family and friends, and to everyone Steve has touched through his work.
Steve and I first met nearly 30 years ago, and have been colleagues, competitors and friends over the course of more than half our lives.
The world rarely sees someone who has had the profound impact Steve has had, the effects of which will be felt for many generations to come.
For those of us lucky enough to get to work with him, it's been an insanely great honor. I will miss Steve immensely.
:mittens:
Except for the IIe's we had in my high school, I've never really used Apple products, but that's mainly because so far Apple hasn't convinced me that its products have enough extra features to justify the extra cost. I never saw the point of the OS/brand tribalism that some people engage in. I'm not going to celebrate Jobs' death, but I'm also not going to act like it was an unexpected tragedy that the world will never recover from. He was responsible for a lot of innovations, but it's not like he cured cancer or anything.
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
Christ, what is it with the apparent infestion of derp on the boards?
I was just saying that yesterday! What the hell is up with that?
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 03:51:36 PM
but it's not like he cured cancer or anything.
indeed.
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
Christ, what is it with the apparent infestion of derp on the boards?
I was just saying that yesterday! What the hell is up with that?
Payne mentioned it today as well.
I propose a Committee to Investigate the Causes of Derp
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
Christ, what is it with the apparent infestion of derp on the boards?
I was just saying that yesterday! What the hell is up with that?
Payne mentioned it today as well.
I propose a Committee to Investigate the Causes of Derp
Yes, definitely.
I propose a developmental department to create the tools and fools of the future, to think outside the box when it comes to making the morons of tomorrow more moronic. I propose we call it DERPA.
:lulz: Yes, definitely.
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
Christ, what is it with the apparent infestion of derp on the boards?
I was just saying that yesterday! What the hell is up with that?
Payne mentioned it today as well.
I propose a Committee to Investigate the Causes of Derp
Whew, when I went to bed last night I was wondering if I'm just being extra bitchy and finding things derpier than usual. Glad to know it isn't just me, especially because I don't actually feel like I'm in a bad/hypercritical mood.
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 11:28:15 AM
I can think of nothing more hipster douchebaggy than logging onto the internet a short time after someone has died to declare how you essentially hated them and are glad they died....because they make electronic products you don't like.
Perfect storm of douchebaggery, hipster entitlement and techno-nerd fashionable whining, in one neat little package.
This pretty much sums it up.
Of course, if this thread is just a troll, PDS wins completely.
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 03:51:36 PM
Except for the IIe's we had in my high school, I've never really used Apple products, but that's mainly because so far Apple hasn't convinced me that its products have enough extra features to justify the extra cost. I never saw the point of the OS/brand tribalism that some people engage in. I'm not going to celebrate Jobs' death, but I'm also not going to act like it was an unexpected tragedy that the world will never recover from. He was responsible for a lot of innovations, but it's not like he cured cancer or anything.
Really?
Props for at least trying to be funny; you get the "too soon" pass.
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:05:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
Christ, what is it with the apparent infestion of derp on the boards?
I was just saying that yesterday! What the hell is up with that?
Payne mentioned it today as well.
I propose a Committee to Investigate the Causes of Derp
Whew, when I went to bed last night I was wondering if I'm just being extra bitchy and finding things derpier than usual. Glad to know it isn't just me, especially because I don't actually feel like I'm in a bad/hypercritical mood.
I am. I have restrained myself from posting on several occasions, and when I have posted, I make a conscious effort to be as reasonable as possible.
I'm bottling the rage, you see. I will need it shortly.
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:10:42 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 03:51:36 PM
Except for the IIe's we had in my high school, I've never really used Apple products, but that's mainly because so far Apple hasn't convinced me that its products have enough extra features to justify the extra cost. I never saw the point of the OS/brand tribalism that some people engage in. I'm not going to celebrate Jobs' death, but I'm also not going to act like it was an unexpected tragedy that the world will never recover from. He was responsible for a lot of innovations, but it's not like he cured cancer or anything.
Really?
Props for at least trying to be funny; you get the "too soon" pass.
I WAS TOO SOONER THAN HIM!
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6939/markzuckerbergs.jpg)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 04:31:27 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:05:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
Christ, what is it with the apparent infestion of derp on the boards?
I was just saying that yesterday! What the hell is up with that?
Payne mentioned it today as well.
I propose a Committee to Investigate the Causes of Derp
Whew, when I went to bed last night I was wondering if I'm just being extra bitchy and finding things derpier than usual. Glad to know it isn't just me, especially because I don't actually feel like I'm in a bad/hypercritical mood.
I am. I have restrained myself from posting on several occasions, and when I have posted, I make a conscious effort to be as reasonable as possible.
I'm bottling the rage, you see. I will need it shortly.
I've mostly been too baffled by the level of derp to even get angry... it seems so improbable that I'm like "nah, that's too stupid to really be what it seems like, I bet if I politely explain why it's so completely wrong it will turn out to be a misunderstanding"
But no.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 06, 2011, 04:38:34 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:10:42 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 03:51:36 PM
Except for the IIe's we had in my high school, I've never really used Apple products, but that's mainly because so far Apple hasn't convinced me that its products have enough extra features to justify the extra cost. I never saw the point of the OS/brand tribalism that some people engage in. I'm not going to celebrate Jobs' death, but I'm also not going to act like it was an unexpected tragedy that the world will never recover from. He was responsible for a lot of innovations, but it's not like he cured cancer or anything.
Really?
Props for at least trying to be funny; you get the "too soon" pass.
I WAS TOO SOONER THAN HIM!
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6939/markzuckerbergs.jpg)
I don't see a cancer joke. :argh!:
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:42:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 04:31:27 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:05:45 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on October 06, 2011, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 06, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
Christ, what is it with the apparent infestion of derp on the boards?
I was just saying that yesterday! What the hell is up with that?
Payne mentioned it today as well.
I propose a Committee to Investigate the Causes of Derp
Whew, when I went to bed last night I was wondering if I'm just being extra bitchy and finding things derpier than usual. Glad to know it isn't just me, especially because I don't actually feel like I'm in a bad/hypercritical mood.
I am. I have restrained myself from posting on several occasions, and when I have posted, I make a conscious effort to be as reasonable as possible.
I'm bottling the rage, you see. I will need it shortly.
I've mostly been too baffled by the level of derp to even get angry... it seems so improbable that I'm like "nah, that's too stupid to really be what it seems like, I bet if I politely explain why it's so completely wrong it will turn out to be a misunderstanding"
But no.
I make no such mistake; I see the derp, and I know it for what it is.
I'm just seeing how much bile I can store at once. That's why I drop in at Capitol Grilling every day, to watch stupid people regurgitate the garbage their favorite pundits spew. It makes me all warm inside, and I get sparkles in front of my eyes.
That warmth is pee and you know it :argh!:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 06, 2011, 04:51:10 PM
That warmth is pee and you know it :argh!:
Yes. It is pee.
It is certainly not the warm, gooey feeling spree killers get just before they turn on the hedge trimmers.
:lulz: Roger.
I'm not sad, but I harbor no ill will towards the guy. He made some contributions, some of which must have caused some cool things to happen. And my kids really liked Toy Story when they were little.
That said, everybody was freaking out over him clocking out on fecebook yesterday, but nobody said anything about this guy
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/10/05/141081785/civil-rights-legend-rev-shuttlesworth-dies-defied-jim-crow-laws
Which kind of makes me disappointed in humanity. Yet again.
Shouldn't be surprised, but... :x
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 05:04:09 PM
:lulz: Roger.
I'm not sad, but I harbor no ill will towards the guy. He made some contributions, some of which must have caused some cool things to happen. And my kids really liked Toy Story when they were little.
That said, everybody was freaking out over him clocking out on fecebook yesterday, but nobody said anything about this guy
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/10/05/141081785/civil-rights-legend-rev-shuttlesworth-dies-defied-jim-crow-laws
Which kind of makes me disappointed in humanity. Yet again.
Shouldn't be surprised, but... :x
I read about that yesterday. It made me sad.
But it was not entirely unexpected, and Shuttleworth led a hell of a life. No regrets.
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 04:10:42 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 03:51:36 PM
Except for the IIe's we had in my high school, I've never really used Apple products, but that's mainly because so far Apple hasn't convinced me that its products have enough extra features to justify the extra cost. I never saw the point of the OS/brand tribalism that some people engage in. I'm not going to celebrate Jobs' death, but I'm also not going to act like it was an unexpected tragedy that the world will never recover from. He was responsible for a lot of innovations, but it's not like he cured cancer or anything.
Really?
Props for at least trying to be funny; you get the "too soon" pass.
My other was "Steve Jobs is dead. Apple wants to be clear that it was NOT a virus."
Gilbert Gotfried is my co-pilot (and I have a feeling it's going to be a long fucking trip).
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 04:55:50 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 06, 2011, 04:51:10 PM
That warmth is pee and you know it :argh!:
Yes. It is pee.
It is certainly not the warm, gooey feeling spree killers get just before they turn on the hedge trimmers.
"Spree" is such a fun word, isn't it?
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on October 06, 2011, 05:04:09 PM
:lulz: Roger.
I'm not sad, but I harbor no ill will towards the guy. He made some contributions, some of which must have caused some cool things to happen. And my kids really liked Toy Story when they were little.
That said, everybody was freaking out over him clocking out on fecebook yesterday, but nobody said anything about this guy
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/10/05/141081785/civil-rights-legend-rev-shuttlesworth-dies-defied-jim-crow-laws
Which kind of makes me disappointed in humanity. Yet again.
Shouldn't be surprised, but... :x
That's sad. :( He was awesome, and I didn't even hear about his death (though I also mostly ignored all media yesterday).
He was, however, fairly old, which makes it less shocking. Jobs was really young; 56. It tends to get more attention/shock when someone dies young. There is also, of course, the predictable "look away!" discomfort because he was a black civil rights activist, which most nonbrown people these days tend to pretend is no longer a relevant issue.
Not making up:
Westboro announces protest of Steve Jobs funeral--with an iPhone (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/westboro-announces-protest-steve-jobs-funeral-iphone-141530936.html)
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:49:23 PM
He was, however, fairly old, which makes it less shocking. Jobs was really young; 56. It tends to get more attention/shock when someone dies young. There is also, of course, the predictable "look away!" discomfort because he was a black civil rights activist, which most nonbrown people these days tend to pretend is no longer a relevant issue.
And it is, of course, relevant, and not only because racism is still a going concern.
Martin Luther King and his colleagues may have liberated brown folks, but they did so by using shame, which had the effect of civilizing white folks, or at least a large percentage of them.
The difference in behavior between the rather brutish Americans of the 50s and the current population is, IMO, directly related to the cultural impact of the civil rights movement.
ETA: I just had a rather horrifying image of myself in a universe where the civil rights movement never occurred.
from Squid, via facebook
(http://i.imgur.com/ZrOZd.png)
Man, Fred Shuttlesworth was
rugged.Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 05:53:51 PM
Not making up:
Westboro announces protest of Steve Jobs funeral--with an iPhone (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/westboro-announces-protest-steve-jobs-funeral-iphone-141530936.html)
:lulz:
"Reality has made satire obsolete."
Quote from: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 05:55:23 PM
from Squid, via facebook
(http://i.imgur.com/ZrOZd.png)
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: Cramulus on October 06, 2011, 05:55:23 PM
from Squid, via facebook
(http://i.imgur.com/ZrOZd.png)
:argh!:
OMG!
OK, whoever did that wins due to it being Too Soon, but STILL TOTALLY FUNNY.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 05:55:03 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:49:23 PM
He was, however, fairly old, which makes it less shocking. Jobs was really young; 56. It tends to get more attention/shock when someone dies young. There is also, of course, the predictable "look away!" discomfort because he was a black civil rights activist, which most nonbrown people these days tend to pretend is no longer a relevant issue.
And it is, of course, relevant, and not only because racism is still a going concern.
Martin Luther King and his colleagues may have liberated brown folks, but they did so by using shame, which had the effect of civilizing white folks, or at least a large percentage of them.
The difference in behavior between the rather brutish Americans of the 50s and the current population is, IMO, directly related to the cultural impact of the civil rights movement.
ETA: I just had a rather horrifying image of myself in a universe where the civil rights movement never occurred.
:x That's a disturbing thought! I rather think you'd still be a decent human being, though.
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 06:01:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 05:55:03 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:49:23 PM
He was, however, fairly old, which makes it less shocking. Jobs was really young; 56. It tends to get more attention/shock when someone dies young. There is also, of course, the predictable "look away!" discomfort because he was a black civil rights activist, which most nonbrown people these days tend to pretend is no longer a relevant issue.
And it is, of course, relevant, and not only because racism is still a going concern.
Martin Luther King and his colleagues may have liberated brown folks, but they did so by using shame, which had the effect of civilizing white folks, or at least a large percentage of them.
The difference in behavior between the rather brutish Americans of the 50s and the current population is, IMO, directly related to the cultural impact of the civil rights movement.
ETA: I just had a rather horrifying image of myself in a universe where the civil rights movement never occurred.
:x That's a disturbing thought! I rather think you'd still be a decent human being, though.
I'm a nuture over nature kinda guy. I think I'd be a horrible fucking reptile wearing a tie and explaining why it's America's DUTY to rape 3rd world countries.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 06:01:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 05:55:03 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:49:23 PM
He was, however, fairly old, which makes it less shocking. Jobs was really young; 56. It tends to get more attention/shock when someone dies young. There is also, of course, the predictable "look away!" discomfort because he was a black civil rights activist, which most nonbrown people these days tend to pretend is no longer a relevant issue.
And it is, of course, relevant, and not only because racism is still a going concern.
Martin Luther King and his colleagues may have liberated brown folks, but they did so by using shame, which had the effect of civilizing white folks, or at least a large percentage of them.
The difference in behavior between the rather brutish Americans of the 50s and the current population is, IMO, directly related to the cultural impact of the civil rights movement.
ETA: I just had a rather horrifying image of myself in a universe where the civil rights movement never occurred.
:x That's a disturbing thought! I rather think you'd still be a decent human being, though.
I'm a nuture over nature kinda guy. I think I'd be a horrible fucking reptile wearing a tie and explaining why it's America's DUTY to rape 3rd world countries.
:x :x :x
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 05:53:51 PM
Not making up:
Westboro announces protest of Steve Jobs funeral--with an iPhone (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/westboro-announces-protest-steve-jobs-funeral-iphone-141530936.html)
If Westboro Baptist is protesting him then I retract the bad things I said about him. I hate them a lot more than I hate Apple.
I may even reconsider my position on Apple if their products are ever proven as effective at "teaching sin" as Westboro claims.
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/301322_2278491916259_1067593280_32574275_534093110_n.jpg)
(http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10440768.jpg)
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 10:33:09 PM
(http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10440768.jpg)
This thread is now full of fucking win.
Dok,
Knows that would have probably made Jobs lol.
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on October 06, 2011, 03:38:23 AM
Steve Jobs is dead. A sad day for hipster douchebags everywhere (apparently also for people so old that they can still remember back to when Steve Jobs and Apple Computers actually had real innovative ideas), but not for me :|, I can't stand Apple, and couldn't care less that Mephistopheles finally decided to collect on his end of their bargain.
Anybody else have any opinions?
EDIT: on rereading this while not so sleep-deprived I suppose this does seem to be a bit unduly harsh towards Steve Jobs. Just because his death will hurt the hated :argh!: Apple corporation doesn't change the fact that by the standards of CEOs of major corporations he was a relatively decent guy.
EDIT: Also, just found out that apparently the Westboro Baptist Church doesn't like him, so I guess that's another thing in his favor.
Item Number Last: You shouldn't base your opinions on someone off of what the WBC thinks about someone. They hate everyone. And I mean, everyone. They would picket everyone's funeral if there weren't so many people in the world.
Edit Number second to last: I write a lot of stupid shit when I'm overtired/drunk. But nothing so stupid that a whole bunch of people are going to call me out on it the next day. Usually I'm the first one to go, Oh man... that was dumb.
The corpus of the OP.
There is never any reason to celebrate in the death of another human being. None. I find it one of the basest monkey qualities in a human being. If I didn't find anything celebration worthy in another high profile death earlier this year (and I will excuse the celebrations of others as long as it's not too disgusting), I'm certainly not going to celebrate in the death of a
Buddhist philanthropist simply because he had more money than me or that people I may or may not find mildly irritating buy his products.
When a good man dies, you celebrate his life and mourn his death.
When an evil man dies, you celebrate nothing, and mourn that he wasted his life on making others miserable instead of happy.
I won't celebrate your eventual death even though you look like a useless douche right now.
And also, I'll jump on the fuck cancer bandwagon.
Now back to where the posts cut off when my phone battery died.
ETA: just dd a quick fact check. Apparently he wasn't too big on the philanthropy thing, so I correct myself in that. But, everything else I say stands. And he did a lot to bring us to the level of technology we have today.
I'm typing on a laptop. Thanks Steve for indirectly putting my in contact with other Discordians, allowing me to more easily promote (and record!) my music, and give me a means of never having to buy porn again!
Twid,
Uses the computer for the important things.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 06:01:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 05:55:03 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 06, 2011, 05:49:23 PM
He was, however, fairly old, which makes it less shocking. Jobs was really young; 56. It tends to get more attention/shock when someone dies young. There is also, of course, the predictable "look away!" discomfort because he was a black civil rights activist, which most nonbrown people these days tend to pretend is no longer a relevant issue.
And it is, of course, relevant, and not only because racism is still a going concern.
Martin Luther King and his colleagues may have liberated brown folks, but they did so by using shame, which had the effect of civilizing white folks, or at least a large percentage of them.
The difference in behavior between the rather brutish Americans of the 50s and the current population is, IMO, directly related to the cultural impact of the civil rights movement.
ETA: I just had a rather horrifying image of myself in a universe where the civil rights movement never occurred.
:x That's a disturbing thought! I rather think you'd still be a decent human being, though.
I'm a nuture over nature kinda guy. I think I'd be a horrible fucking reptile wearing a tie and explaining why it's America's DUTY to rape 3rd world countries.
I just saw myself with a bouffant sitting in some other suburban raptor-wife's kitchen, chasing dexedrine with coffee in one of those old cups that looks like a little bowl with a handle and saying horrible things about our cleaning ladies.
Ugh. Need brain bleach.
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 03:51:36 PM
Except for the IIe's we had in my high school, I've never really used Apple products, but that's mainly because so far Apple hasn't convinced me that its products have enough extra features to justify the extra cost. I never saw the point of the OS/brand tribalism that some people engage in. I'm not going to celebrate Jobs' death, but I'm also not going to act like it was an unexpected tragedy that the world will never recover from. He was responsible for a lot of innovations, but it's not like he cured cancer or anything.
:argh!: :argh!: :argh!: GOD DAMN IT! :argh!: :argh!: :argh!:
:cramstipated:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 06, 2011, 10:53:17 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 10:33:09 PM
(http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10440768.jpg)
This thread is now full of fucking win.
Dok,
Knows that would have probably made Jobs lol.
Damn straight it would have! :lulz:
You can tell the jokes that are made with love.
Or at least respect.
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 12:16:09 AM
When a good man dies, you celebrate his life and mourn his death.
When an evil man dies, you celebrate nothing, and mourn that he wasted his life on making others miserable instead of happy.
:mittens:
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on October 07, 2011, 01:48:07 AM
Quote from: kingyak on October 06, 2011, 03:51:36 PM
Except for the IIe's we had in my high school, I've never really used Apple products, but that's mainly because so far Apple hasn't convinced me that its products have enough extra features to justify the extra cost. I never saw the point of the OS/brand tribalism that some people engage in. I'm not going to celebrate Jobs' death, but I'm also not going to act like it was an unexpected tragedy that the world will never recover from. He was responsible for a lot of innovations, but it's not like he cured cancer or anything.
:argh!: :argh!: :argh!: GOD DAMN IT! :argh!: :argh!: :argh!:
:cramstipated:
You see what I did there? :lulz:
i didnt read this whole thread but STEVE JOBS HELPED MAKE PIXAR WHAT IT IS AND YOU GOTTA LOVE PIXAR <3 :D
Quote from: Vladimir Poutine ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on October 07, 2011, 04:14:23 AM
i didnt read this whole thread but STEVE JOBS HELPED MAKE PIXAR WHAT IT IS AND YOU GOTTA LOVE PIXAR <3 :D
Not if you have a sister half your age who was at that age when you want to watch the same goddamn movie over and over again when the Incredibles and Monsters Inc. came out.
Saw this and it made me laugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrme9yWens
Its not a jab at Steve its just funny irony.
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 04:17:11 AM
Quote from: Vladimir Poutine ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on October 07, 2011, 04:14:23 AM
i didnt read this whole thread but STEVE JOBS HELPED MAKE PIXAR WHAT IT IS AND YOU GOTTA LOVE PIXAR <3 :D
Not if you have a sister half your age who was at that age when you want to watch the same goddamn movie over and over again when the Incredibles and Monsters Inc. came out.
oh man, you too? :x
I can't ever watch "Finding Nemo" again. I might have an aneurysm.
Quote from: Cainad on October 07, 2011, 05:56:10 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 04:17:11 AM
Quote from: Vladimir Poutine ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on October 07, 2011, 04:14:23 AM
i didnt read this whole thread but STEVE JOBS HELPED MAKE PIXAR WHAT IT IS AND YOU GOTTA LOVE PIXAR <3 :D
Not if you have a sister half your age who was at that age when you want to watch the same goddamn movie over and over again when the Incredibles and Monsters Inc. came out.
oh man, you too? :x
I can't ever watch "Finding Nemo" again. I might have an aneurysm.
MINE! MINE! MINE!
Quote from: Pixie on October 07, 2011, 06:02:26 AM
Quote from: Cainad on October 07, 2011, 05:56:10 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 04:17:11 AM
Quote from: Vladimir Poutine ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on October 07, 2011, 04:14:23 AM
i didnt read this whole thread but STEVE JOBS HELPED MAKE PIXAR WHAT IT IS AND YOU GOTTA LOVE PIXAR <3 :D
Not if you have a sister half your age who was at that age when you want to watch the same goddamn movie over and over again when the Incredibles and Monsters Inc. came out.
oh man, you too? :x
I can't ever watch "Finding Nemo" again. I might have an aneurysm.
MINE! MINE! MINE!
:asplode:
Quote from: Cainad on October 07, 2011, 05:56:10 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 04:17:11 AM
Quote from: Vladimir Poutine ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on October 07, 2011, 04:14:23 AM
i didnt read this whole thread but STEVE JOBS HELPED MAKE PIXAR WHAT IT IS AND YOU GOTTA LOVE PIXAR <3 :D
Not if you have a sister half your age who was at that age when you want to watch the same goddamn movie over and over again when the Incredibles and Monsters Inc. came out.
oh man, you too? :x
I can't ever watch "Finding Nemo" again. I might have an aneurysm.
I'm 30. My youngest sister is 15.
Yep. I love my sister, but god, was that an annoying time.
well im an only child so i watched them at my leisure :D not forced repeatedly
Quote from: Vladimir Poutine ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on October 07, 2011, 06:35:19 AM
well im an only child so i watched them at my leisure :D not forced repeatedly
Lucky you.
Twid,
My parents must fucking hate Back to the Future, Ghostbusters, Rocky and Star Wars.
i watched jaws repeatedly from age 5 on. was my fav movie for a lonnnnnnng time
Quote from: Vladimir Poutine ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on October 07, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
i watched jaws repeatedly from age 5 on. was my fav movie for a lonnnnnnng time
Never got into it. Not enough lasers. Or, apparently, Italians with slurred speech.
Quote from: Vladimir Poutine ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on October 07, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
i watched jaws repeatedly from age 5 on. was my fav movie for a lonnnnnnng time
This explains so much. :D
Other news breaking, the Jobless total rose significantly yesterday. . . . . . . . . . . . . (Best I could come up with) :lol:
Quote from: BadBeast on October 07, 2011, 07:02:53 AM
Other news breaking, the Jobless total rose significantly yesterday. . . . . . . . . . . . . (Best I could come up with) :lol:
:lol: Made a similar joke on FB yesterday.
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 07:04:48 AM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 07, 2011, 07:02:53 AM
Other news breaking, the Jobless total rose significantly yesterday. . . . . . . . . . . . . (Best I could come up with) :lol:
:lol: Made a similar joke on FB yesterday.
Yesterday??! Don't you think yesterday was a bit soon to be making jokes? He was still warm! :roll:
Richard M. Stallman on Steve Jobs: "I'm glad he's gone" (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/richard-m-stallman-on-steve-jobs-im-not-glad-hes-dead-but-im-glad-hes-gone/15275)
:spittake:
also, tasteless.
And yet, still not a douchey as the OP
Thot it was typically nerd-douche myself. What's apple to me? Overpriced shite aimed at your average tech-illiterate punter who doesn't know how to work computers and would rather pay 3 or 4 times over the odds to save them having to learn. Difference is - I don't take this as some kind of personal affront. For the price of half an iphone I can get myself an mp3 player with twice the storage, a mobile phone and a pc that would leave the fastest macbook standing at the lights. What the fuck do I care how people who can't do that spend their money? Has no effect on me whatsoever. But there's this "OMG if it's not open source it's the devil!" attitude. Attn paranerds: get over it.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 07, 2011, 05:58:04 PM
Thot it was typically nerd-douche myself. What's apple to me? Overpriced shite aimed at your average tech-illiterate punter who doesn't know how to work computers and would rather pay 3 or 4 times over the odds to save them having to learn. Difference is - I don't take this as some kind of personal affront. For the price of half an iphone I can get myself an mp3 player with twice the storage, a mobile phone and a pc that would leave the fastest macbook standing at the lights. What the fuck do I care how people who can't do that spend their money? Has no effect on me whatsoever. But there's this "OMG if it's not open source it's the devil!" attitude. Attn paranerds: get over it.
:mittens:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 07, 2011, 05:58:04 PM
Thot it was typically nerd-douche myself. What's apple to me? Overpriced shite aimed at your average tech-illiterate punter who doesn't know how to work computers and would rather pay 3 or 4 times over the odds to save them having to learn. Difference is - I don't take this as some kind of personal affront. For the price of half an iphone I can get myself an mp3 player with twice the storage, a mobile phone and a pc that would leave the fastest macbook standing at the lights. What the fuck do I care how people who can't do that spend their money? Has no effect on me whatsoever. But there's this "OMG if it's not open source it's the devil!" attitude. Attn paranerds: get over it.
This is the correct home-made, non-corporate motorized bicycle.
I dunno Stallman gave his opinion. It really wasn't aggressively seeking out the blood of his rival like so many others.
I am fine with that.
He should have wrote this when Jobs retired not just after he died.
BUT, where do we suddenly get off saying life/death is sacred? The Darwin awards are best sellers, and 1,000 to die is a TV show. Some of the most popular internet videos are of people antecedently killing themselves. I have never personally been able to get a good chuckle out of people dying, but people do it every day. Why then is someone saying he isn't going to miss a person who just died controversial?
I have seen hundreds of pro Jobs memorial news stories this week. Why can we have a well worded non-aggressive counter point?
Seems not. All I've heard so far is a bunch of "Ding dong the witch is dead" bullshit from the "OMG corporations are teh evil" wankers
Some poor cunt died of cancer. He wasn't trying to do something dipshit stupid where the dying from it punchline is actually funny. He rotted to death through no fault of his own. Not just that but, back in the day, before he keyed into the fact that all the consumers are interested in is "shiny", he did a lot of revolutionary shit. Am I ready to jump off a bridge about it? No, but it is a bit sad all the same.
Quote from: Penumbral on October 07, 2011, 06:04:24 PMWhy then is someone saying he isn't going to miss a person who just died controversial?
Well if he'd say that, I'd just say me might as well not say it.
Except he explicitly said "I'm glad he's gone", which is even stronger.
QuoteHe should have wrote this when Jobs retired not just after he died.
Worse, I believe he would not have written this if Jobs had just retired. Because if he'd retire, the guy would already be there, and why bother saying "I'm glad he's gone" (having retired) if you know Apple is just going to continue business as usual?
QuoteI have seen hundreds of pro Jobs memorial news stories this week. Why can we have a well worded non-aggressive counter point?
Because we don't need one.
It's one thing saying you don't agree with Apple's business methods and closed hardware.
But it's another thing saying you're glad Steve Jobs is gone.
If only because I don't think Apple will change their business methods and closed hardware reliance very much now Steve Jobs is gone. So basically you're shitting on someone who isn't there anymore, and not even for a very good reason.
I don't think that's very cool.
Now, RMS has a fuckload of assburgers or autism or at the very least severe anti social disorder. I know cause I know some people who met him IRL (he was a good friend of Fravia+'s). That doesn't excuse him from being a dick, but it also makes it easier for me to just sorta ignore his rant.
I, for one, don't think death is very sacred. It's the reason the Wikipedia and the Underground photos work so well - there's no such thing as too soon if it's actually funny.
The problem with the guy saying "I'm glad he's gone" isn't, the way I see it, that he's celebrating Jobs' departure. It's that he's using the guy's death as a way to make his point.
What Trip said. Criticizing a company is completely different from being glad a guy died.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on October 07, 2011, 06:24:03 PM
I, for one, don't think death is very sacred. It's the reason the Wikipedia and the Underground photos work so well - there's no such thing as too soon if it's actually funny.
The problem with the guy saying "I'm glad he's gone" isn't, the way I see it, that he's celebrating Jobs' departure. It's that he's using the guy's death as a way to make his point.
Yeah. It's okay to use someone's death to make a joke, but it's not okay to use it to make a point.
Death, like my jokes, should be pointless.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 07, 2011, 06:17:00 PM
QuoteI have seen hundreds of pro Jobs memorial news stories this week. Why can we have a well worded non-aggressive counter point?
Because we don't need one.
It's one thing saying you don't agree with Apple's business methods and closed hardware.
But it's another thing saying you're glad Steve Jobs is gone.
We don't need a lot of this media coverage. Its fairly well known that RMS doesn't like Jobs. I still think the OP was wrong with his level of joy, but just saying you're am glad someone is gone is different then saying I've wanted him dead for a long time.
I never wished death upon Jerry Falwell, but when he died I didn't morn anything, and I am glad I don't have to see him spewing bullshit right now.
Like I said before I don't like Apple, and I have nothing against Jobs the person. I am not glad he is dead, but I understand that people can be. Giving away free Dr. Pepper because someone dies is one thing, but just saying, "Yeah I never like that motherfucker is another."
Lying for the sake of social grace has become a little too widespread. Sure RMS could have kept his mouth shut, but I am not going to act as opinion censor when honesty is involved.
I agree you shouldn't use a death to make a point even though that has a rich tradition. No argument, I just agree.
My feeling is, if you're glad someone is dead, have the fucking courtesy to be glad in private where it won't hurt the people who loved that person. Unless you WANT to hurt the people who loved that person, in which case let's hope that they are terrible people, otherwise it makes you one.
Just out of curiosity, how do you guys feel about something like this:
What Everyone Is Too Polite to Say About Steve Jobs (http://gawker.com/5847344/what-everyone-is-too-polite-to-say-about-steve-jobs)
Quote from: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 07:36:39 PM
Just out of curiosity, how do you guys feel about something like this:
What Everyone Is Too Polite to Say About Steve Jobs (http://gawker.com/5847344/what-everyone-is-too-polite-to-say-about-steve-jobs)
The above is probably all true.
But this reminds me too much of the media in the last 6 months of Bush's presidency...When it was safe to talk smack, all the worms came out of the woodwork. Where were these people when Bush and Jobs were at the height of their power?
Oh, yeah. Kissing their asses.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 07, 2011, 07:40:03 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 07:36:39 PM
Just out of curiosity, how do you guys feel about something like this:
What Everyone Is Too Polite to Say About Steve Jobs (http://gawker.com/5847344/what-everyone-is-too-polite-to-say-about-steve-jobs)
The above is probably all true.
But this reminds me too much of the media in the last 6 months of Bush's presidency...When it was safe to talk smack, all the worms came out of the woodwork. Where were these people when Bush and Jobs were at the height of their power?
Oh, yeah. Kissing their asses.
This.
Fucking cowards.
"Now that he's dead I'll say what I
really think!"
Fuck 'em.
Wait so, is it OK to call him a bad man or not?
If so, is it OK to be glad of the death of a bad man or not?
These are not things I'm interested in doing. I'm just confused.
He was worse than Hitler, because he was co-founder and CEO of a company that made products that many people felt were overpriced and placed form over function. We should dance on his grave while playing vuvuzelas.
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
He was worse than Hitler, because he was co-founder and CEO of a company that made products that many people felt were overpriced and placed form over function. We should dance on his grave while playing vuvuzelas.
He outsourced to China, which is absolutely unheard of and against the business practices of all major corporations in America.
I want to dig him up and shit in his rotting chest.
There. Am I doing it right?
I know this is just awful but I have to admit it to someone. I loved my Mac. It was one of the first ones they produced and my parents got it for me when I started college. The mouse was a "new" invention then and in comparison to doing everything in DOS, this was the easiest and most amazing computer I had ever used.
There I feel better. :oops:
Yeah. If you've got something against someone, whether justified or not, it's a bit crass to say it before the body is even cold.
Unless of course, it's a joke. Jokes are never "not allowed". But right on top of the actual death, they'd better be bloody funny ones, because grief hasn't got much of a sense of humour.
ETA: Depending on the person, that is. And what they did. I expect I shall be dancing down the street, singing "Ding dong the Witch is dead" the moment I hear of Margaret Thatchers demise. And I bet I won't be the only one. Expect Street Parties, from coast to coast, on a Jubilee scale. Then shortly afterwards, a huge "Let's dig her up and put her head on a pikestaff" Party, Oliver Cromwell style. I'm think I'm going to start work on a truly fitting obituary, and blackmail that stupid Hippy we've got for an Archbishop of Canterbury, into reading it for her funeral. :evil:
I've always thought the whole "platform wars" thing was the most retarded of all monkey-territory to get all "ook ook" about. I've used DOS, Linux, Mac, Amiga, and Windows, and seriously, who the fuck gives a rabid half-shit. There's actual bad stuff happening in the world, most of which are inhuman atrocities people are doing to other people over things just as mind-bogglingly irrelevant as who wrote their software.
If you click the links in the article above, you'll see that many of them are criticisms of Jobs/Apple written by the author of the piece (Ryan Tate) when Jobs was very much alive. That seems to eliminate the "fair weather ass-kisser" and "coward" arguments for why the article should not have been written.
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 09:25:46 PM
I've always thought the whole "platform wars" thing was the most retarded of all monkey-territory to get all "ook ook" about. I've used DOS, Linux, Mac, Amiga, and Windows, and seriously, who the fuck gives a rabid half-shit. There's actual bad stuff happening in the world, most of which are inhuman atrocities people are doing to other people over things just as mind-bogglingly irrelevant as who wrote their software.
I still like to razz Linux users, though. :)
I would cry if I had to go back to an all DOS system. The operating system we use at work is DOS and it drives me batshit.
Rule of Thumb: its alright to say bad stuff about someone after they die, so long as it's funny.
OP: green with jealousy, not funny.
Jobs/Hipster/Underground pic = hilarious
Quote from: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 09:27:04 PM
If you click the links in the article above, you'll see that many of them are criticisms of Jobs/Apple written by the author of the piece (Ryan Tate) when Jobs was very much alive. That seems to eliminate the "fair weather ass-kisser" and "coward" arguments for why the article should not have been written.
And obviously, right after his death is the most relevant time to trot it out, because the author might be able to leech a bit of media attention.
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 09:49:19 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 09:27:04 PM
If you click the links in the article above, you'll see that many of them are criticisms of Jobs/Apple written by the author of the piece (Ryan Tate) when Jobs was very much alive. That seems to eliminate the "fair weather ass-kisser" and "coward" arguments for why the article should not have been written.
And obviously, right after his death is the most relevant time to trot it out, because the author might be able to leech a bit of media attention.
TIT
I was going to do TITCM, but somehow got all distracted.
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 09:49:19 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 09:27:04 PM
If you click the links in the article above, you'll see that many of them are criticisms of Jobs/Apple written by the author of the piece (Ryan Tate) when Jobs was very much alive. That seems to eliminate the "fair weather ass-kisser" and "coward" arguments for why the article should not have been written.
And obviously, right after his death is the most relevant time to trot it out, because the author might be able to leech a bit of media attention.
I'd say that right after his death is the most relevant time because it counterbalances all the hero worship going on and because, let's face it, the American attention span is so short that waiting until after the next shiny news bit grabs our attention will just guarantee that it won't get read.
So, assuming that Tate's article is just as inappropriate as the OP's grave dancing, I've got to ask: How long does the the immunity from criticism that death brings last? How long should reporters have waited after Osama Bin Laden's murder to point out that he might have had something to do with a couple of buildings getting blown up? How long after Charlie Sheen ODs do I have to wait before I can stop talking about how good he was in Platoon and mention he was also a wife-beater? Can I mention that Pat Robertson was a racist, homophobic asshole 2 weeks after his death, or do I have to wait until the 4th Friday in May?
Reporters commented on bin ladens involvement negstive ten years after his death. That analogy doesnt really fit.
Also theres a difference between criticising a deadmans actions and saying im glad hes dead.
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 10:53:51 PM
Reporters commented on bin ladens involvement negstive ten years after his death. That analogy doesnt really fit.
And the reporter who wrote the article criticizing Jobs had commented on his shortcomings prior to his death.
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 10:56:04 PM
Also theres a difference between criticising a deadmans actions and saying im glad hes dead.
My point exactly.
You asked how long after. Thats why i responded how i did.
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 11:11:34 PM
You asked how long after. Thats why i responded how i did.
I was specifically referring to the Gawker article I linked to earlier. I'm in total agreement that the OP is a dick.
Ah. Pd doesnt show up very well on my phone and i cant click links nor see pics/avatars/post times. Lively threads are hard to follow sometimes. (i also cant quote)
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 11:17:01 PM
Ah. Pd doesnt show up very well on my phone and i cant click links nor see pics/avatars/post times. Lively threads are hard to follow sometimes. (i also cant quote)
I hope you're not using an iPhone. If so, I take offense at your disrespect for the dead.
I am.
For all Android can do, it doesn't seem they can cope with Japanese characters.
Quote from: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 10:43:10 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 09:49:19 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 09:27:04 PM
If you click the links in the article above, you'll see that many of them are criticisms of Jobs/Apple written by the author of the piece (Ryan Tate) when Jobs was very much alive. That seems to eliminate the "fair weather ass-kisser" and "coward" arguments for why the article should not have been written.
And obviously, right after his death is the most relevant time to trot it out, because the author might be able to leech a bit of media attention.
I'd say that right after his death is the most relevant time because it counterbalances all the hero worship going on and because, let's face it, the American attention span is so short that waiting until after the next shiny news bit grabs our attention will just guarantee that it won't get read.
So, assuming that Tate's article is just as inappropriate as the OP's grave dancing, I've got to ask: How long does the the immunity from criticism that death brings last? How long should reporters have waited after Osama Bin Laden's murder to point out that he might have had something to do with a couple of buildings getting blown up? How long after Charlie Sheen ODs do I have to wait before I can stop talking about how good he was in Platoon and mention he was also a wife-beater? Can I mention that Pat Robertson was a racist, homophobic asshole 2 weeks after his death, or do I have to wait until the 4th Friday in May?
Apples to oranges, dude, and critique of Apple's business policies isn't going to suddenly become irrelevant.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 07, 2011, 09:29:12 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 09:25:46 PM
I've always thought the whole "platform wars" thing was the most retarded of all monkey-territory to get all "ook ook" about. I've used DOS, Linux, Mac, Amiga, and Windows, and seriously, who the fuck gives a rabid half-shit. There's actual bad stuff happening in the world, most of which are inhuman atrocities people are doing to other people over things just as mind-bogglingly irrelevant as who wrote their software.
I still like to razz Linux users, though. :)
They'll have an app for that soon.
Where are the oranges? I just see the apples.
Didn't mean to imply that Apple's business policies would be irrelevant in a few weeks. Just that if the author's interest is in making people aware of the negative aspects of Apple's business policies, it makes sense to do it when everyone's talking about Jobs. The hagiographic articles about Jobs are just as much about generating traffic as the Tate article. In fact, IMO most of them are using Jobs' death in an even more cynical manner since they have no agenda beyond cashing in on the current Thing People Are Paying Attention To.
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 09:25:46 PM
I've always thought the whole "platform wars" thing was the most retarded of all monkey-territory to get all "ook ook" about. I've used DOS, Linux, Mac, Amiga, and Windows, and seriously, who the fuck gives a rabid half-shit. There's actual bad stuff happening in the world, most of which are inhuman atrocities people are doing to other people over things just as mind-bogglingly irrelevant as who wrote their software.
But Nigel, the next Ubuntu Linux version is going to be named "Pangolin" (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/784).
(http://i.imgur.com/Wn40B.jpg)
NOT THE PANGOLINS!!!! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 12:15:19 AM
Where are the oranges? I just see the apples.
Didn't mean to imply that Apple's business policies would be irrelevant in a few weeks. Just that if the author's interest is in making people aware of the negative aspects of Apple's business policies, it makes sense to do it when everyone's talking about Jobs. The hagiographic articles about Jobs are just as much about generating traffic as the Tate article. In fact, IMO most of them are using Jobs' death in an even more cynical manner since they have no agenda beyond cashing in on the current Thing People Are Paying Attention To.
Criticism of a company's business practices is not the same thing as dancing on a bad man's grave. Herp derp.
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2011, 02:05:17 AM
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 12:15:19 AM
Where are the oranges? I just see the apples.
Didn't mean to imply that Apple's business policies would be irrelevant in a few weeks. Just that if the author's interest is in making people aware of the negative aspects of Apple's business policies, it makes sense to do it when everyone's talking about Jobs. The hagiographic articles about Jobs are just as much about generating traffic as the Tate article. In fact, IMO most of them are using Jobs' death in an even more cynical manner since they have no agenda beyond cashing in on the current Thing People Are Paying Attention To.
Criticism of a company's business practices is not the same thing as dancing on a bad man's grave. Herp derp.
That's what I said. :?
I guess technically what I said was "criticizing a public figure's actions is not the same as dancing on a dead man's grave," but I'm still a little confused.
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 02:12:11 AM
I guess technically what I said was "criticizing a public figure's actions is not the same as dancing on a dead man's grave," but I'm still a little confused.
The thread started with someone saying they were glad Jobs was dead. Connect the dots, topic-wise.
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
He was worse than Hitler, because he was co-founder and CEO of a company that made products that many people felt were overpriced and placed form over function. We should dance on his grave while playing vuvuzelas.
So, no, he wasn't a bad man? Or, he was a bad man to a certain extent, but we can't be happy because that extent of badness is gone?
Again, nothing to do with me personally. Only intellectually interested in discussing where you're drawing the line. Sarcastic hyperbole is a bothersome, indirect answer, but I will still accept it.
Quote from: BadBeast on October 07, 2011, 09:06:28 PM
Yeah. If you've got something against someone, whether justified or not, it's a bit crass to say it before the body is even cold.
Unless of course, it's a joke. Jokes are never "not allowed". But right on top of the actual death, they'd better be bloody funny ones, because grief hasn't got much of a sense of humour.
ETA: Depending on the person, that is. And what they did. I expect I shall be dancing down the street, singing "Ding dong the Witch is dead" the moment I hear of Margaret Thatchers demise. And I bet I won't be the only one. Expect Street Parties, from coast to coast, on a Jubilee scale. Then shortly afterwards, a huge "Let's dig her up and put her head on a pikestaff" Party, Oliver Cromwell style. I'm think I'm going to start work on a truly fitting obituary, and blackmail that stupid Hippy we've got for an Archbishop of Canterbury, into reading it for her funeral. :evil:
THIS.
Also, Scotland will cease to exist, either through the effects of everyone having such a massive party that the extremely thin veil of "society" gets shredded or because Scotland has defined itself as so anti-Thatcher for so long that they'll simply pop out of reality.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 08, 2011, 08:13:22 AM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 07, 2011, 09:06:28 PM
Yeah. If you've got something against someone, whether justified or not, it's a bit crass to say it before the body is even cold.
Unless of course, it's a joke. Jokes are never "not allowed". But right on top of the actual death, they'd better be bloody funny ones, because grief hasn't got much of a sense of humour.
ETA: Depending on the person, that is. And what they did. I expect I shall be dancing down the street, singing "Ding dong the Witch is dead" the moment I hear of Margaret Thatchers demise. And I bet I won't be the only one. Expect Street Parties, from coast to coast, on a Jubilee scale. Then shortly afterwards, a huge "Let's dig her up and put her head on a pikestaff" Party, Oliver Cromwell style. I'm think I'm going to start work on a truly fitting obituary, and blackmail that stupid Hippy we've got for an Archbishop of Canterbury, into reading it for her funeral. :evil:
THIS.
Also, Scotland will cease to exist, either through the effects of everyone having such a massive party that the extremely thin veil of "society" gets shredded or because Scotland has defined itself as so anti-Thatcher for so long that they'll simply pop out of reality.
I don't think Thatcher will ever die. Just look at her. She's clearly an ancient evil sustained by the misery of working communities.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/08/article-1384752-0BF2CE5000000578-924_233x423.jpg)
I will dance on her grave. I don't care how high the fence is, how many armed guards there are, or how long the queue is.
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on October 08, 2011, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 08, 2011, 08:13:22 AM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 07, 2011, 09:06:28 PM
Yeah. If you've got something against someone, whether justified or not, it's a bit crass to say it before the body is even cold.
Unless of course, it's a joke. Jokes are never "not allowed". But right on top of the actual death, they'd better be bloody funny ones, because grief hasn't got much of a sense of humour.
ETA: Depending on the person, that is. And what they did. I expect I shall be dancing down the street, singing "Ding dong the Witch is dead" the moment I hear of Margaret Thatchers demise. And I bet I won't be the only one. Expect Street Parties, from coast to coast, on a Jubilee scale. Then shortly afterwards, a huge "Let's dig her up and put her head on a pikestaff" Party, Oliver Cromwell style. I'm think I'm going to start work on a truly fitting obituary, and blackmail that stupid Hippy we've got for an Archbishop of Canterbury, into reading it for her funeral. :evil:
THIS.
Also, Scotland will cease to exist, either through the effects of everyone having such a massive party that the extremely thin veil of "society" gets shredded or because Scotland has defined itself as so anti-Thatcher for so long that they'll simply pop out of reality.
I don't think Thatcher will ever die. Just look at her. She's clearly an ancient evil sustained by the misery of working communities.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/08/article-1384752-0BF2CE5000000578-924_233x423.jpg)
She has alzheimer's now. We should do a letter writing campaign to get her to release Bobby Sands.
Here's the predictable fallout from RMSs faux-pas:
http://larrythefreesoftwareguy.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/time-to-fork-the-fsf/
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3086793
here's a very insightful comment:
QuoteSaying "I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone" is tripe. Being gone is a euphemism for being dead. The reason we mourn when a loved one dies is precisely because that means they are gone.
and
Quotea transliteration into humane language of what he said:
"My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we forget the damage that Jobs' work had on the Free Software movement.
His pioneered the software walled garden, which destroys freedom and choice. And he targeted it at people who would not understand what they were sacrificing by giving up their freedoms.
We can only hope that his successors make Apple a more free company, or failing that, are not as effective at spreading it as he was."
Wasn't that better? And it communicated substantively the same thing, but without all the name calling and the seeming glee over the death of another human.
Disclaimer: I typed this on my Macbook Air.
BTW this is not the first time RMS said really offensive things. There's also the "Emacs virgins" incident, where he described women that had never used Emacs (a text-editor, big player in the holy wars of text editors) as "Emacs virgins" and that "we" (neckbearded males, I suppose) were to help them lose this virginity ... uhuh.
Now, I gotta say, the FSF is probably the original, but also most radical open source organisation. They actively fuel the fires of the platform wars (Linux vs Mac/Windows) with campaigns such as "Bad Vistas" and "Windows 7 Sins" :|
And within this organisation, RMS is the craziest fanatic at the head of it all, like Ghadaffi without the fashion sense.
For example Ubuntu is not part of the FSF. In fact--and I forget for what exact idealistic reason--RMS hates Ubuntu just as well, cause it's not "free" enough (Ubuntu uses a few "non-free" parts and bits because not all hardware vendors open-source their drivers).
Just so you know the type of fundamentalist open-source zealot we're looking at here :lol:
IMO his only redeeming quality is the key roles he played in the origins and early days of the Open Source and Free Software movements.
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 08, 2011, 01:47:29 PM
IMO his only redeeming quality is the key roles he played in the origins and early days of the Open Source and Free Software movements.
Also, when he gets batshit crazy, he makes people like Eric Raymond sound more reasonable.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/Marburger/71edfb0c.jpg)
Quote from: Epimetheus on October 08, 2011, 07:36:20 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
He was worse than Hitler, because he was co-founder and CEO of a company that made products that many people felt were overpriced and placed form over function. We should dance on his grave while playing vuvuzelas.
So, no, he wasn't a bad man? Or, he was a bad man to a certain extent, but we can't be happy because that extent of badness is gone?
Again, nothing to do with me personally. Only intellectually interested in discussing where you're drawing the line. Sarcastic hyperbole is a bothersome, indirect answer, but I will still accept it.
I don't really feel like indulging your assburger tendencies.
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2011, 04:02:58 PM
Quote from: Epimetheus on October 08, 2011, 07:36:20 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 07, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
He was worse than Hitler, because he was co-founder and CEO of a company that made products that many people felt were overpriced and placed form over function. We should dance on his grave while playing vuvuzelas.
So, no, he wasn't a bad man? Or, he was a bad man to a certain extent, but we can't be happy because that extent of badness is gone?
Again, nothing to do with me personally. Only intellectually interested in discussing where you're drawing the line. Sarcastic hyperbole is a bothersome, indirect answer, but I will still accept it.
I don't really feel like indulging your assburger tendencies.
Thanks. Sometimes we all need to cut back a little. :p
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2011, 07:16:47 AM
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 02:12:11 AM
I guess technically what I said was "criticizing a public figure's actions is not the same as dancing on a dead man's grave," but I'm still a little confused.
The thread started with someone saying they were glad Jobs was dead. Connect the dots, topic-wise.
Right, and pretty much everyone agreed that was uncalled for. Then I posted the article by Ryan Tate, which every also seemed to think was uncalled for, initially because it was "cowardly" to publish criticism after the guy had died (in reality Tate has been a critic of Jobs for a while) and then because he was just using the death to get traffic (so is every other site covering Jobs' death).
So again, I ask: Is it inappropriate to criticize/examine a public figure's shortcomings/mistakes/negative actions when they die? If so, then how long is the "mourning period" before people are allowed to examine the parts of a dead person's life when he wasn't shitting rainbows?
Related question: Shouldn't we also extend this "Zippity-Doo-Dah"-only attitude to those who are suffering from a chronic illness? I mean, it seems even meaner to me to criticize a person who's alive and in pain than one who's dead and has no idea you're talking shit about him. In other words, can George W. Bush announce tomorrow that he's got cancer of the pretzel, die a slow, lingering death for the next 30 years, and be remembered as the greatest president in U.S. history thanks to the 3 decades when we could only talk about the positive things he did?
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:15:06 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2011, 07:16:47 AM
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 02:12:11 AM
I guess technically what I said was "criticizing a public figure's actions is not the same as dancing on a dead man's grave," but I'm still a little confused.
The thread started with someone saying they were glad Jobs was dead. Connect the dots, topic-wise.
Right, and pretty much everyone agreed that was uncalled for. Then I posted the article by Ryan Tate, which every also seemed to think was uncalled for, initially because it was "cowardly" to publish criticism after the guy had died (in reality Tate has been a critic of Jobs for a while) and then because he was just using the death to get traffic (so is every other site covering Jobs' death).
So again, I ask: Is it inappropriate to criticize/examine a public figure's shortcomings/mistakes/negative actions when they die? If so, then how long is the "mourning period" before people are allowed to examine the parts of a dead person's life when he wasn't shitting rainbows?
Related question: Shouldn't we also extend this "Zippity-Doo-Dah"-only attitude to those who are suffering from a chronic illness? I mean, it seems even meaner to me to criticize a person who's alive and in pain than one who's dead and has no idea you're talking shit about him. In other words, can George W. Bush announce tomorrow that he's got cancer of the pretzel, die a slow, lingering death for the next 30 years, and be remembered as the greatest president in U.S. history thanks to the 3 decades when we could only talk about the positive things he did?
What fucking thread have you been reading? Certainly not this one.
Start around page 8 of the thread.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 08, 2011, 10:29:45 AM
I will dance on her grave. I don't care how high the fence is, how many armed guards there are, or how long the queue is.
I'll buy a fuckload of booze and if anybody wants any, they have to say "ROT IN HELL MAGGIE THATCHER" 27 times while dancing in the fake grave I will erect in the park.
I'll have them pissing on it before sundown.
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:15:06 PM
Right, and pretty much everyone agreed that was uncalled for. Then I posted the article by Ryan Tate, which every also seemed to think was uncalled for, initially because it was "cowardly" to publish criticism after the guy had died (in reality Tate has been a critic of Jobs for a while) and then because he was just using the death to get traffic (so is every other site covering Jobs' death).
Revelling in death is disgusting. That was my issue with the article
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:15:06 PM
So again, I ask: Is it inappropriate to criticize/examine a public figure's shortcomings/mistakes/negative actions when they die? If so, then how long is the "mourning period" before people are allowed to examine the parts of a dead person's life when he wasn't shitting rainbows?
Nope. It's disgusting to revel in their death though. The "mourning period" takes as long as it takes, as in all other kinds of mourning.
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:15:06 PM
Related question: Shouldn't we also extend this "Zippity-Doo-Dah"-only attitude to those who are suffering from a chronic illness? I mean, it seems even meaner to me to criticize a person who's alive and in pain than one who's dead and has no idea you're talking shit about him. In other words, can George W. Bush announce tomorrow that he's got cancer of the pretzel, die a slow, lingering death for the next 30 years, and be remembered as the greatest president in U.S. history thanks to the 3 decades when we could only talk about the positive things he did?
It's equally disgusting to revel in someone who is dying and in pain, but they at least have a chance to reply to criticism and work on their legacy.
Also there is no clear parallel between Bush and Jobs? I mean, one started a company that some have issues with but as far as I know never started us off on two major wars that have left thousands dead and also had a massive part to play in speeding up the necrosis of American politics which will affect
generations to come.
Jobs may well have been a dick but he was never so bad as to warrant such hideous disrespect without someone passing comment on it.
In summary: you are free to say whatever loathsome thing you like, and as we have the same rights to free speech as you, we are free to pour scorn and bile on you for it.
Ok, so we basically agree on what is and isn't appropriate, we just disagree on the nature of the article. You see it as reveling in Jobs' death. I see it as legitimate criticism of how Jobs' personality informed Apple's business model. Now we're getting somewhere.
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:33:38 PM
Ok, so we basically agree on what is and isn't appropriate, we just disagree on the nature of the article. You see it as reveling in Jobs' death. I see it as legitimate criticism of how Jobs' personality informed Apple's business model. Now we're getting somewhere.
Pretty much, and while the Tate article wasn't all "Well, I'm glad he's out of the picture", I reckon that his article could have waited at least a couple of days out of some sense of respect.
We need to bear in mind that to make it as a CEO of a major transnational business you have to be a world class asshole, and that this is true of pretty much anyone in Jobs' position. That he didn't also do some good should not be missed or passed over unremarked or buried in a pile of criticism. It doesn't matter that everyone else everywhere are being respectful, it doesn't allow you to stand over the warm body and use it as a soapbox.
Yes these things needed to be written, but also they could have waited until the guy was at least in the ground.
Its funny that the people revelling in his death are people who hold passionate stances on the consumer products, and the intricacies of what those consumer product companies do. I guess it goes hand in hand with the first world problems stuff but they seems just as shallow as the company they hate so much.
Quote from: Faust on October 08, 2011, 06:46:16 PM
Its funny that the people revelling in his death are people who hold passionate stances on the consumer products, and the intricacies of what those consumer product companies do. I guess it goes hand in hand with the first world problems stuff but they seems just as shallow as the company they hate so much.
:mittens: because there is no "like" button.
Quote from: Faust on October 08, 2011, 06:46:16 PM
Its funny that the people revelling in his death are people who hold passionate stances on the consumer products, and the intricacies of what those consumer product companies do. I guess it goes hand in hand with the first world problems stuff but they seems just as shallow as the company they hate so much.
The benefits of what corporations can do are all around us. That these assholes fail to recognise that a good chunk of what
makes us "first world" has required evil geniuses like Jobs
et al is pitiable. I do not deny that the big corporations are in large part one of the bits of machinary tearing up what we had as a "society", but ultimately we have to pay for what we get which has been A LOT.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 08, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:33:38 PM
Ok, so we basically agree on what is and isn't appropriate, we just disagree on the nature of the article. You see it as reveling in Jobs' death. I see it as legitimate criticism of how Jobs' personality informed Apple's business model. Now we're getting somewhere.
Pretty much, and while the Tate article wasn't all "Well, I'm glad he's out of the picture", I reckon that his article could have waited at least a couple of days out of some sense of respect.
We need to bear in mind that to make it as a CEO of a major transnational business you have to be a world class asshole, and that this is true of pretty much anyone in Jobs' position. That he didn't also do some good should not be missed or passed over unremarked or buried in a pile of criticism.
Tate started off by pointing out that Jobs had done good, but my reading of the opening paragraph was more "I'm not going to go into the details of the good things he did because there are a million other articles that have already done that" than "I'm ignoring everything good Jobs has ever done."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 08, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
It doesn't matter that everyone else everywhere are being respectful, it doesn't allow you to stand over the warm body and use it as a soapbox.
Yes these things needed to be written, but also they could have waited until the guy was at least in the ground.
This is where we disagree. I think it's fine "use a warm body as a soapbox" as long as it's done respectfully (and I personally think Tate was respectful). Bodies are used for soapboxes all the time, whether it's Troy Davis or Bobby Kennedy or Adam Walsh. People only seem to have a problem with it when someone is "impolite" enough to acknowledge that the dead body is not, in fact, that of a saint who never did any wrong.
Personally, while a agree that pointless grave-dancing is unnecessary, I think the over-emphasis on being polite and making sure you don't hurt anyone's feelings is detrimental to society. Probably the biggest example I can think of is that after more than a decade Americans still have not discussed the real motivations behind the 9/11 attacks because of a very tenuous argument that doing so would in some way be disrespectful to the people who died that day. So we're left with "they hate us for our freedoms."
Ten years ago, America had Bob Hope, Johnny Cash, and Steve Jobs. Now they have no Cash, no Hope, and no Jobs!
Thanks to Sam, the joke man.
Reminds me of this article, which IMO walks right on the line between legitimate criticism and grave dancing.
Hope Wasn't Funny (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/08/hopeless.html)
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 07:10:23 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 08, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:33:38 PM
Ok, so we basically agree on what is and isn't appropriate, we just disagree on the nature of the article. You see it as reveling in Jobs' death. I see it as legitimate criticism of how Jobs' personality informed Apple's business model. Now we're getting somewhere.
Pretty much, and while the Tate article wasn't all "Well, I'm glad he's out of the picture", I reckon that his article could have waited at least a couple of days out of some sense of respect.
We need to bear in mind that to make it as a CEO of a major transnational business you have to be a world class asshole, and that this is true of pretty much anyone in Jobs' position. That he didn't also do some good should not be missed or passed over unremarked or buried in a pile of criticism.
Tate started off by pointing out that Jobs had done good, but my reading of the opening paragraph was more "I'm not going to go into the details of the good things he did because there are a million other articles that have already done that" than "I'm ignoring everything good Jobs has ever done."
When it's buried in a slew of criticism, such an opening paragraph is a sop to appearing humane. And that is all.
Just because everyone else is taking this time to appreciate the good shit he did doesn't exempt one from also appreciating it. He was after all mostly a good guy.
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 07:10:23 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 08, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
It doesn't matter that everyone else everywhere are being respectful, it doesn't allow you to stand over the warm body and use it as a soapbox.
Yes these things needed to be written, but also they could have waited until the guy was at least in the ground.
This is where we disagree. I think it's fine "use a warm body as a soapbox" as long as it's done respectfully (and I personally think Tate was respectful). Bodies are used for soapboxes all the time, whether it's Troy Davis or Bobby Kennedy or Adam Walsh. People only seem to have a problem with it when someone is "impolite" enough to acknowledge that the dead body is not, in fact, that of a saint who never did any wrong.
Personally, while a agree that pointless grave-dancing is unnecessary, I think the over-emphasis on being polite and making sure you don't hurt anyone's feelings is detrimental to society. Probably the biggest example I can think of is that after more than a decade Americans still have not discussed the real motivations behind the 9/11 attacks because of a very tenuous argument that doing so would in some way be disrespectful to the people who died that day. So we're left with "they hate us for our freedoms."
Your analogy[ies] leaves me somewhat confused.* In any case I went out of my way to say that we should NEVER criticise him, just that doing it mere hours after his death is callous and makes me want to punch people.
* Troy Davis dedicated his (imprisioned) life to debating Justice, to use his death as a means to further this debate is not callous. RFK was running for office, utilising himself as an image in life. Being used an image in death is no disrespect. From what I can see of Adam Walsh, this was less of a case of using his death as a soapbox and more of a tragedy that everyone
must reflect on.
As for 9/11, the time for mourning and avoidance is most definitely past. I agree with you on that, but such a discussion is not really relevent here.
Quote from: Charley Brown on October 08, 2011, 06:18:10 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:15:06 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2011, 07:16:47 AM
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 02:12:11 AM
I guess technically what I said was "criticizing a public figure's actions is not the same as dancing on a dead man's grave," but I'm still a little confused.
The thread started with someone saying they were glad Jobs was dead. Connect the dots, topic-wise.
Right, and pretty much everyone agreed that was uncalled for. Then I posted the article by Ryan Tate, which every also seemed to think was uncalled for, initially because it was "cowardly" to publish criticism after the guy had died (in reality Tate has been a critic of Jobs for a while) and then because he was just using the death to get traffic (so is every other site covering Jobs' death).
So again, I ask: Is it inappropriate to criticize/examine a public figure's shortcomings/mistakes/negative actions when they die? If so, then how long is the "mourning period" before people are allowed to examine the parts of a dead person's life when he wasn't shitting rainbows?
Related question: Shouldn't we also extend this "Zippity-Doo-Dah"-only attitude to those who are suffering from a chronic illness? I mean, it seems even meaner to me to criticize a person who's alive and in pain than one who's dead and has no idea you're talking shit about him. In other words, can George W. Bush announce tomorrow that he's got cancer of the pretzel, die a slow, lingering death for the next 30 years, and be remembered as the greatest president in U.S. history thanks to the 3 decades when we could only talk about the positive things he did?
What fucking thread have you been reading? Certainly not this one.
He's using something akin to autistic logic to extend a particular line of thought to it's argument ad absurdum.
It's an exercise that philosophy sophomores often enjoy, not realizing.
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 06:33:38 PMOk, so we basically agree on what is and isn't appropriate, we just disagree on the nature of the article. You see it as reveling in Jobs' death. I see it as legitimate criticism of how Jobs' personality informed Apple's business model. Now we're getting somewhere.
Are we talking about the "What everybody is too polite to say about Jobs" article by Gawker, or the "I'm glad he's gone" one by RMS?
Because the former is (IMO) not really revelling in his death, but neither is it completely legitimate criticism.
And the latter
is (obviously IMO) revelling in his death, while also bringing criticism that is a lot more legitimate.
The former is a big media corporation that really doesn't have a very clean conscience itself, jumping on the media bandwagon, playing the platform wars game, on the one hand catering to the apple fanboi's with a nice obituary (http://gawker.com/5847124/steve-jobs-is-dead) and to the other side with the other article (http://gawker.com/5847344/what-everyone-is-too-polite-to-say-about-steve-jobs) and its not-quite-legitimate criticism, that is obviously nothing more than a kneejerk response to all the fawning fanboi's.
The latter is an autistic fundamentalist crazy OSS zealot that probably reasoned "Steve Jobs died. I should write about that" which predictably turned into a fiery rant about the evils of closed source software focused on Steve Jobs with lots of righteous-feeling indignation and no regard for any sort of feelings, etiquette or social mores.
Both are tasteless in their own unique ways.
That said, in my very personal opinion, I'm not entirely sure how I'd feel about people dancing on Thatcher's grave either, how wicked a witch she might have been. Same for Bin Laden or Bush. I'd cheer if they defeated Al Qaeda, or the bigoted corruption that is rampant in the US Gov. Maybe I'd even cheer if Bin Laden's assassination would have actually accomplished anything. And I'm certainly not going to defend him and his wrongdoings against some scathing obituary, because he was really quite clearly an evil man.
But, in my opinion, there is something different about destroying evils. Evil isn't usually just the product of one man--ignoring serial killers, rapists, etc--in this really big complex world, the real big evils are produced by supra-human constructs, systems, corporations, committees, parties, bodies, boards, organisations but not singular physical organisms. Destroying those is quite a bit harder, nearly (but not completely) impossible, even. With Steve Jobs dead, doesn't mean Apple won't continue doing what Jobs is being criticised for in either article. With Bin Laden dead, doesn't mean Al Qaeda or whatever clusterfuck-du-jour in the Middle East will stop doing what it's doing. With Bush dead, nothing will change. With Thatcher dead there will be one vacated place in whatever upperest-class elderly home she's mindlessly dwelling now. It means nothing. You can be happy about it, is fine with me, but I think it's a meaningless empty happiness like an obese man celebrating the loss of body weight from cutting his fucking toenails.
Quote from: Faust on October 08, 2011, 06:46:16 PM
Its funny that the people revelling in his death are people who hold passionate stances on the consumer products, and the intricacies of what those consumer product companies do. I guess it goes hand in hand with the first world problems stuff but they seems just as shallow as the company they hate so much.
Holy shit, completely. COMPLETELY.
Annnnd also what Trip said. That was really good.
While on the topic, fuck that loser Arch West. He took the open source "tortilla" development, added a couple of different flavours and some shiny packaging for his pothead fans, then closed off all future development of the platform, by anyone.
Arch West is a monster and I'm glad he's gone.
Quote from: Cain on October 08, 2011, 08:02:05 PM
While on the topic, fuck that loser Arch West. He took the open source "tortilla" development, added a couple of different flavours and some shiny packaging for his pothead fans, then closed off all future development of the platform, by anyone.
Arch West is a monster and I'm glad he's gone.
:lulz: Like a razor.
Quote from: BadBeast on October 08, 2011, 07:13:08 PM
Ten years ago, America had Bob Hope, Johnny Cash, and Steve Jobs. Now they have no Cash, no Hope, and no Jobs!
Thanks to Sam, the joke man.
BAHAHAHAH!
Trip,
I'm talking about the Gawker article, and for the most part I read it as legitimate criticism. There are a couple of items (like the thing about his daughter) that are only tangentially related, but even those at least to some extent support the basic idea that some of Apple's polices are rooted in the fact that Jobs was a workaholic with a bit of a messiah complex.
Payne,
I'm intentionally using examples that aren't direct because I'm trying to figure out what the "rules" are for talking about someone's death. In the case of Davis and RFK, the soapboxes set up on their corpses were in fact soapboxes that they had stood on. They were still soapboxes, though, so obviously it is acceptable to use someone's death to help promote an agenda, ad least if it's the agenda of the dead person. I can agree with that.
I threw Adam Walsh into the mix because I've never quite decided how I feel about that one. For anyone too young to remember, Adam a kid who was kidnapped and murdered in the early 80s. He became sort of the poster child for missing children, in part because his father, John Walsh, became an advocate for missing children. This eventually led to a successful TV career for Walsh as the host of America's Most Wanted. While Walsh's initial activism was certainly based in legitimate grief and a desire to spare other parents from going through a similar ordeal, I've never decided whether or not Walsh at some point was just milking his family's tragedy for personal gain.
As for 9/11, I think I said in the post that it's not exactly the same thing, but I think the fact that we've spent 10 years wallowing in the tragedy without looking at the motivations behind the attacks are rooted in the same kind of "be polite, there are dead people around" attitude.
Let's try two analogies that are a little more direct:
1) If Bill Clinton drops dead tomorrow, are reporters allowed to talk about NAFTA? What about Monica?
2) When Col. Sanders died, would it have been appropriate for someone to write an article about the fact that Sanders was a racist? What if that racism directly informed KFC's hiring practices?
Quote from: kingyak on October 07, 2011, 11:24:39 PM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on October 07, 2011, 11:17:01 PM
Ah. Pd doesnt show up very well on my phone and i cant click links nor see pics/avatars/post times. Lively threads are hard to follow sometimes. (i also cant quote)
I hope you're not using an iPhone. If so, I take offense at your disrespect for the dead.
No. My phone is not in any way, shape, or form, smart. I don't need a smartphone.
Quote from: kingyak on October 08, 2011, 08:44:07 PM
Let's try two analogies that are a little more direct:
1) If Bill Clinton drops dead tomorrow, are reporters allowed to talk about NAFTA? What about Monica?
2) When Col. Sanders died, would it have been appropriate for someone to write an article about the fact that Sanders was a racist? What if that racism directly informed KFC's hiring practices?
If it's important enough to warrant a debate, then it can wait till the body is cold and prefarably in the ground. That is my ONLY point ITT.
If it's true now, it will still be true in a week and the discussion can take place in a somewhat more rational sphere.
Ok, then the place you're losing me is this post:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on October 08, 2011, 08:13:22 AM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 07, 2011, 09:06:28 PM
Yeah. If you've got something against someone, whether justified or not, it's a bit crass to say it before the body is even cold.
Unless of course, it's a joke. Jokes are never "not allowed". But right on top of the actual death, they'd better be bloody funny ones, because grief hasn't got much of a sense of humour.
ETA: Depending on the person, that is. And what they did. I expect I shall be dancing down the street, singing "Ding dong the Witch is dead" the moment I hear of Margaret Thatchers demise. And I bet I won't be the only one. Expect Street Parties, from coast to coast, on a Jubilee scale. Then shortly afterwards, a huge "Let's dig her up and put her head on a pikestaff" Party, Oliver Cromwell style. I'm think I'm going to start work on a truly fitting obituary, and blackmail that stupid Hippy we've got for an Archbishop of Canterbury, into reading it for her funeral. :evil:
THIS.
Also, Scotland will cease to exist, either through the effects of everyone having such a massive party that the extremely thin veil of "society" gets shredded or because Scotland has defined itself as so anti-Thatcher for so long that they'll simply pop out of reality.
The only reason I can think of tho avoid criticizing a person after their death (barring a belief that their ghost is hanging around getting offended) is because it might offend that person's friends and loved ones. But here you seem to think it's ok to joke about someone's death, which I'd think people close to the deceased would find more offensive than legitimate criticism.
You also seem to be fine with dancing on Margaret Thatcher's grave (and potentially Dubya's as well). What makes her different from Jobs, other than the fact that you like her less? The OP and the guy who wrote the other "I'm glad he's dead" article that was mentioned apparently feel the same way about Jobs as Badbeast does about Thatcher, so why is their grave dancing any less valid?
For a start, the old Bitch isn't quite dead yet.
I tend to measure evil in terms of survival-related harm to people. In those terms, how would you define Jobs as evil, compared to GW Bush and M Thatcher?
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:21:06 AM
You also seem to be fine with dancing on Margaret Thatcher's grave (and potentially Dubya's as well). What makes her different from Jobs, other than the fact that you like her less? The OP and the guy who wrote the other "I'm glad he's dead" article that was mentioned apparently feel the same way about Jobs as Badbeast does about Thatcher, so why is their grave dancing any less valid?
IIRC Steve Jobs has never been involved in the death of my countrymen, nor did he set back the peace process thirty years and escalate tensions directly resulting in deaths of both politically involved people and collateral damage.
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:13:40 AM
I tend to measure evil in terms of survival-related harm to people. In those terms, how would you define Jobs as evil, compared to GW Bush and M Thatcher?
The incredibly factual and legitimate criticism in the Gawker article
did point out that Steve Jobs
literally built iPhones from the backs of Chinese kids.
I believe that after you've harvested about, 3 or 4 iPhones from an Asian spine, there will be survival related harm.
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:39:19 AM
For a start, the old Bitch isn't quite dead yet.
STFU! I was having a good day and then you go and remind me of that :argh!:
PS: I sincerely hope that when I dance on the old bags grave that her spineless cunt of a husband and her two idiot kids get real fucking offended (perhaps suicidally so) Put it this way - anyone who'd take offence to me dancing (or pissing) on the wicked witches grave? I want to offend those bastards, in the worst possible way
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 09, 2011, 11:11:02 AM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:39:19 AM
For a start, the old Bitch isn't quite dead yet.
STFU! I was having a good day and then you go and remind me of that :argh!:
PS: I sincerely hope that when I dance on the old bags grave that her spineless cunt of a husband and her two idiot kids get real fucking offended (perhaps suicidally so) Put it this way - anyone who'd take offence to me dancing (or pissing) on the wicked witches grave? I want to offend those bastards, in the worst possible way
Her spineless cunt of a husband died some time ago, probably from long term exposure to the toxicity of her rancid personality. She is now madder than Mugabe, and kept under sedation in an underground bunker and fed on live kittens.
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
However there is a good rule of thumb out there.
It can't be too soon to celebrate Thatcher's death yet, seeing as she's still alive. Although looking at her, I find it hard to know how they can tell. Should we bury her anyway?
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
However there is a good rule of thumb out there.
So far the only rule of thumb I've seen that everyone can agree on is to avoid completely pointless attacks that serve no purpose ("I'm glad he's dead"). Everything else seem completely subjective based on individual perception as to the validity of the statement (Is the joke funny? Is the criticism legitimate?) and the overall goodness/badness of a person (ie, Jobs is generally a "good guy," Dubya's generally a "bad guy," ignoring the fact that there are Chinese factory workers and teabaggers who would feel differently).
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:52:59 PM
It can't be too soon to celebrate Thatcher's death yet, seeing as she's still alive. Although looking at her, I find it hard to know how they can tell. Should we bury her anyway?
Better get the poisoned darts off of her first.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
However there is a good rule of thumb out there.
So far the only rule of thumb I've seen that everyone can agree on is to avoid completely pointless attacks that serve no purpose ("I'm glad he's dead"). Everything else seem completely subjective based on individual perception as to the validity of the statement (Is the joke funny? Is the criticism legitimate?) and the overall goodness/badness of a person (ie, Jobs is generally a "good guy," Dubya's generally a "bad guy," ignoring the fact that there are Chinese factory workers and teabaggers who would feel differently).
See the main problem I see here is that you assume he could have had a lick of difference in the manufacturing conditions of those countries.
One doesn't get to the top of a Corporation by trying to shake things up, its a given that most if not all of them are morally bankrupt.
Distinguishing between things he was directly responsible for, or his awful company is responsible for is the important dividing factor.
Your example of Margaret Thatcher is flawed because she directly, hands or committed murder.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
Yeah. I mean, following social mores tend to be a complicated matter of perception, empathy, and experience. If you're looking for hard-and-fast black-and-white rules, you aren't going to find any. If you seriously can't figure it out for yourself, your best bet is to find someone that most people generally regard highly, and follow their lead, because they clearly have better social acuity than you do.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
However there is a good rule of thumb out there.
So far the only rule of thumb I've seen that everyone can agree on is to avoid completely pointless attacks that serve no purpose ("I'm glad he's dead"). Everything else seem completely subjective based on individual perception as to the validity of the statement (Is the joke funny? Is the criticism legitimate?) and the overall goodness/badness of a person (ie, Jobs is generally a "good guy," Dubya's generally a "bad guy," ignoring the fact that there are Chinese factory workers and teabaggers who would feel differently).
:assburgers:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 06:59:03 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:52:59 PM
It can't be too soon to celebrate Thatcher's death yet, seeing as she's still alive. Although looking at her, I find it hard to know how they can tell. Should we bury her anyway?
Better get the poisoned darts off of her first.
I thought I already had. Did anyone else notice? Because if they did, I totally wasn't there.
What the hell is up with these noobs lately?
I'm sort of coming around on the Jobs/Chinese work camp things.
The more I read, the more I want to sick up.
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 07:01:40 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
However there is a good rule of thumb out there.
So far the only rule of thumb I've seen that everyone can agree on is to avoid completely pointless attacks that serve no purpose ("I'm glad he's dead"). Everything else seem completely subjective based on individual perception as to the validity of the statement (Is the joke funny? Is the criticism legitimate?) and the overall goodness/badness of a person (ie, Jobs is generally a "good guy," Dubya's generally a "bad guy," ignoring the fact that there are Chinese factory workers and teabaggers who would feel differently).
See the main problem I see here is that you assume he could have had a lick of difference in the manufacturing conditions of those countries.
One doesn't get to the top of a Corporation by trying to shake things up, its a given that most if not all of them are morally bankrupt.
Distinguishing between things he was directly responsible for, or his awful company is responsible for is the important dividing factor.
Your example of Margaret Thatcher is flawed because she directly, hands or committed murder.
Jobs couldn't have changed the manufacturing conditions, but he could have chosen to manufacture products somewhere without those conditions. Instead, he took the path of least resistance and maximum profit, and I think its valid to criticize those decisions. As for distinguishing between the man and the company, I don't think that's really valid in this case because since he came back, Apple has done its best to use his cult of personality as a marketing tool and based many of its business decision on his control issues. If Jobs is Apple for the good stuff, then Jobs is also Apple for the bad stuff.
Quote from: Faust on October 09, 2011, 07:01:40 PM
See the main problem I see here is that you assume he could have had a lick of difference in the manufacturing conditions of those countries.
Doing business with them is morally wrong.
There's no gray area here.
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:03:56 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
Yeah. I mean, following social mores tend to be a complicated matter of perception, empathy, and experience. If you're looking for hard-and-fast black-and-white rules, you aren't going to find any. If you seriously can't figure it out for yourself, your best bet is to find someone that most people generally regard highly, and follow their lead, because they clearly have better social acuity than you do.
I know what I think is and isn't appropriate. I'm just trying to see what other people here believe, because so far those beliefs seem incredibly inconsistent.
And if I'm just going to follow the lead of "someone that most people generally regard highly," then I missed out on some serious grave dancing when Osama was killed, and again a few weeks ago when we blew up an American citizen.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 07:11:08 PM
I'm sort of coming around on the Jobs/Chinese work camp things.
The more I read, the more I want to sick up.
That kind of gets to my point about criticism being valid. Before someone pointed me to the Gawker article, I was completely ambivalent about Jobs/Apple. Now I'm kind of glad I've never bought their products, and probably won't buy their stuff even if they come out with something with features to justify the cost. I realize that all tech companies do something I don't agree with (mostly the Chinese labor thing), but Apple seems to do just about all of them, and their "express yourself" adds a health dose of hypocrisy to the mix as well.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 07:38:26 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 09, 2011, 07:11:08 PM
I'm sort of coming around on the Jobs/Chinese work camp things.
The more I read, the more I want to sick up.
That kind of gets to my point about criticism being valid. Before someone pointed me to the Gawker article, I was completely ambivalent about Jobs/Apple. Now I'm kind of glad I've never bought their products, and probably won't buy their stuff even if they come out with something with features to justify the cost. I realize that all tech companies do something I don't agree with (mostly the Chinese labor thing), but Apple seems to do just about all of them, and their "express yourself" adds a health dose of hypocrisy to the mix as well.
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa417/DoktorHowl/child-labour05d.jpg)
(http://www.kingyak.com/temp/expression.jpg)
Fixed.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 07:29:07 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 07:03:56 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on October 09, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 06:29:50 PM
Those last few posts pretty much tell me what I wanted to know.
Which was?
That what is and is not an appropriate reaction to a person's death is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.
Yeah. I mean, following social mores tend to be a complicated matter of perception, empathy, and experience. If you're looking for hard-and-fast black-and-white rules, you aren't going to find any. If you seriously can't figure it out for yourself, your best bet is to find someone that most people generally regard highly, and follow their lead, because they clearly have better social acuity than you do.
I know what I think is and isn't appropriate. I'm just trying to see what other people here believe, because so far those beliefs seem incredibly inconsistent.
And if I'm just going to follow the lead of "someone that most people generally regard highly," then I missed out on some serious grave dancing when Osama was killed, and again a few weeks ago when we blew up an American citizen.
Welcome to the planet. Human beings are inconsistent. If we were consistent, we'd be machines.
Kind of what I've been getting at the whole thread. The responses to the OP were purely based on gut reaction, but were stated as if he'd done something that was ABSOLUTELY WRONG. If a Koch brother had kicked it and he'd said the same thing, he probably would have gotten applause.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 08:05:24 PM
Kind of what I've been getting at the whole thread. The responses to the OP were purely based on gut reaction, but were stated as if he'd done something that was ABSOLUTELY WRONG. If a Koch brother had kicked it and he'd said the same thing, he probably would have gotten applause.
Oh, so your problem is that people didn't e-prime their opinions enough? The OP was callous and uncalled-for. Not subjective enough for you? "Callous" is subjective. "Uncalled-for" is subjective. The statement is inherently subjective, and there is no need to e-prime it for people who lack the ability to make such distinctions on their own.
If you look back, there was actually quite a bit of explicit e-priming early in the thread. The thing I find interesting about the thread is the number of people who projected their reactions to the OP onto any criticism of Jobs as if they'd established a moral absolute that had to be defended. It was wrong of the OP to dance on Jobs' grave, therefore it was equally wrong of the Gawker article to offer criticisms of Jobs. Of course, to be honest Trip and Dok Howl are the only posters here who've given any indication that they actually read the Gawker article, rather than just instinctively pounding their chests and defending the territory they'd already pissed on.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 08:36:59 PM
If you look back, there was actually quite a bit of explicit e-priming early in the thread. The thing I find interesting about the thread is the number of people who projected their reactions to the OP onto any criticism of Jobs as if they'd established a moral absolute that had to be defended. It was wrong of the OP to dance on Jobs' grave, therefore it was equally wrong of the Gawker article to offer criticisms of Jobs. Of course, to be honest Trip and Dok Howl are the only posters here who've given any indication that they actually read the Gawker article, rather than just instinctively pounding their chests and defending the territory they'd already pissed on.
What is the point you're trying to make?
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 08:40:05 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 08:36:59 PM
If you look back, there was actually quite a bit of explicit e-priming early in the thread. The thing I find interesting about the thread is the number of people who projected their reactions to the OP onto any criticism of Jobs as if they'd established a moral absolute that had to be defended. It was wrong of the OP to dance on Jobs' grave, therefore it was equally wrong of the Gawker article to offer criticisms of Jobs. Of course, to be honest Trip and Dok Howl are the only posters here who've given any indication that they actually read the Gawker article, rather than just instinctively pounding their chests and defending the territory they'd already pissed on.
What is the point you're trying to make?
Oh, I failed to make any point I was getting at several pages ago. Now I'm just making observations.
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 08:46:20 PM
Quote from: Nigel on October 09, 2011, 08:40:05 PM
Quote from: kingyak on October 09, 2011, 08:36:59 PM
If you look back, there was actually quite a bit of explicit e-priming early in the thread. The thing I find interesting about the thread is the number of people who projected their reactions to the OP onto any criticism of Jobs as if they'd established a moral absolute that had to be defended. It was wrong of the OP to dance on Jobs' grave, therefore it was equally wrong of the Gawker article to offer criticisms of Jobs. Of course, to be honest Trip and Dok Howl are the only posters here who've given any indication that they actually read the Gawker article, rather than just instinctively pounding their chests and defending the territory they'd already pissed on.
What is the point you're trying to make?
Oh, I failed to make any point I was getting at several pages ago. Now I'm just making observations.
OK then.
APPLE DROOLZ!! COMMODORE ROOLZ!! WOOOOOOO!!!!!!1
I'm guessing this got posted somewhere on these forums earlier this year, but just in case:
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx (http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx)
:hit: