http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/hannigan092099.html
This is a fantastic read. Simple enough for even children (though not too young) to understand, and thought-provoking.
i can say that without a doubt, that is on of the top 23 most disturbing things i have ever read or will ever read. ever.
Damn straight that's how THEY did/do it.
How do you make big money ? Simple, you print it. It costs $23 (I'm NOT making this up) to print 10,000 bank notes that value a million dollars in face value.
How do you make MORE big money ? Simple too, you print it, then lend it with interest like the Federal Reserve does. $23 investment turn into $1,000,000 + yearly 2% interest investment. Lather, rinse, repeat until the world is yours - that is, when all countries in the world have an interest debt higher than their internal wealth combined.
Who would have thought that taxes were little more than an indirect way for Fabian to force people (under threat of jail time) to pay the interest ?
Quote from: namuHow do you make big money ? Simple, you print it. It costs $23 (I'm NOT making this up) to print 10,000 bank notes that value a million dollars in face value.
How do you make MORE big money ? Simple too, you print it, then lend it with interest like the Federal Reserve does. $23 investment turn into $1,000,000 + yearly 2% interest investment. Lather, rinse, repeat until the world is yours - that is, when all countries in the world have an interest debt higher than their internal wealth combined.
Who would have thought that taxes were little more than an indirect way for Fabian to force people (under threat of jail time) to pay the interest ?
Shh! not too loudly! Otherwise THEY will know that we know that THEY know we know.
Quote from: St. Hugh, KSCShh! not too loudly! Otherwise THEY will know that we know that THEY know we know.
Damn you !
Until now the just knew that we know, but thanks to you they know that we know that they know that we know !
Something doesn't seem quite right with the story, but as a non-student of economics, I can't put my finger on it....
Something about the concept is true in a closed system, but I can't help but feel that additional wealth CAN be created (and that's hard, real wealth).
Like, if there were 23 cows one year, each cow being worth 23 dollars, and then there were 28 more cows the next year, that's 5 more cows that weren't there before = more wealth.
Or, when a new product is invented: cars, computers, etc. New things, more wealth.
Where am I going wrong? Why isn't this a (slightly) open system?
You don't understand. Creating wealth does not create money, except if you're counterfeiting bank notes and even then you can't realistically profit from it (and it does not heal the system, because that excess money ends up being destroyed by authorities). Only Officially Appointed Money Makers can, thus you depend on them for valuing and profiting from your work (a.k.a creation of wealth).
They're asking for an interest on it, that interest INFECTS your possessions, and it's only a matter of time before, on a global scale, they own everything.
You own your house ? Just wait until your country's public debt equals the country's total internal wealth, which includes your house. Then you don't own anything anymore.
And it keeps getting worse afterwards.
[Edit] Lemme explain:
Your 28 cows are worth 28/23 times the amount of money. But that money does not EXIST. There are no bank notes that got printed out of thin air and down in your pocket. Thus the "money value" of your cows decrease to adjust to existing quantity of money. You are not richer, but the money-maker is (he buys the excess cows on the interest he gets paid. He does not lose money by doing this, but your possessions lose value).
[Edit2] Creation of wealth only delays the day "Fabian" will own everything (= the day all countries have debts equal to internal wealth). It's still a long time in the future, but if the system is not brought down, it'll eventually happen. With current interest rates of 1-2%, it only takes ~70 years to transfer half of everything's ownership to the system designer. Add another 70 years, and we're up to 75% of everything. 4 centuries, and the 1% interest has eaten over 99% of the wealth. Etc... Creating wealth only inflates the remaining total V.S. the interest due.
Ok, I guess I understand that, but when I look at the whole thing, I see that, apart from the bartering process, there is no viable system where everyone profits. If there is a fixed amount of dollars, anyone gaining "wealth" is making someone else "poor". I know Illuminatus! posited a capitalistic money system, where hempnotes, flaxnotes, etc competed against the federal dollar, but i don't see how that improves the situation (ie, it's still a closed system, and a win-lose game).
Wilson also talks about "wealth" vs "illth", but i don't have th book around here to refresh my memory.
More importantly, apart from scaring and outraging us, what's the point of the story? It offers no solutions, other than abandoning the money game, which will never happen. So are there any real-world, viable solutions, or are we doomed?
I'm gonna sing the doom song now!
"DoomDoomDoomDoomDoomDoomieDoomieDoomDoom"
*cough* back to the barter system *cough*
Quote from: Slartibartfast*cough* back to the barter system *cough*
Oh, come on now! You may say I've been brainwashed by the system; but on the contrary, I have, in my little punk cabals of the past, tried to implement the barter system, and as it turns out, Wilson was right: once you get beyond 5 levels of structure, it breaks down (I forget where he said that, maybe it was actually about conspiricies, whatever, the Law of Five still holds).
If we're gonna get all upset & pissy about this, we have to think of solutions that
may actually fuckin work. If you don't do that, you may as well grab the KY and a few tissues, 'cuz all yr doing is wanking off.
Problems at hand:
1. Usury demands money that does not exist.
2. A closed system of money either demands haves & have nots, or demands equality with no growth.
3. A representational system (i.e. dollars represent the "real wealth" of useful things) does not acknowledge advances that bring more "real wealth" into the world.
As far as I see it now, the last two points are related, and as far as the global mentality goes, might be the easiest aspects to change ("easy" being relative, or course).
The problem with the barter system is that after a certain point you spend all your time bartering.
Yes that problem that eventually banks (or their functional equivalent) would own everything after a few hundred years even assuming the most modest interest rates is old.
I'd say a few thousend years old.
And the "solution" to the problem is just as old. It takes the form of a reset button that gets pressed now and then and puff wads of money are suddenly only fancy toilet paper and the wealth they represented is no longer there. At the same time actual property gets redistributed to some extent as well.
Mostly this reset takes the form of wars.
Afterwards we get new fancy toilet paper disguised as money which will be good for another few hundred years and people go back to business as usual
Because 'the relevant members of science, industry and government' will know far better how to handle that stuff.
I'd say one could even build a fairly congruent cyclic theory of history that defines that accumulation of wealth via interest as a force that after a certain level of imbalance is reached causes wars, revolutions and the like to happen to violently rectify this situation and start another cycle. :?
Alas money is just a shared mass halucination anyway. :wink:
well what's a solution then?
I think the implication is that Bush is helping world economy by blowing the shit out of other countries.
Hmm yes he could be seen as part of a problem that solves another problem.
That is as long as pretzels and bikes allow him to live.
Quote from: Schweinepriester G.Hmm yes he could be seen as part of a problem that solves another problem.
That is as long as pretzels and bikes allow him to live.
I'm rooting for the Pretzels.
The pretzels are the true power behind the scenes.
Quote from: Schweinepriester G.Yes that problem that eventually banks (or their functional equivalent) would own everything after a few hundred years even assuming the most modest interest rates is old.
I'd say a few thousend years old.
I thought taxes were how we took away interest from the rich folks and
redistributed it to the rest of us. Oops, I'm sorry. That's how the rich
take away interest from the bankers and redistribute it to themselves.
My bad.
Quote from: Schweinepriester G.And the "solution" to the problem is just as old. It takes the form of a reset button that gets pressed now and then and puff wads of money are suddenly only fancy toilet paper and the wealth they represented is no longer there. At the same time actual property gets redistributed to some extent as well.
Mostly this reset takes the form of wars.
Hyper-inflation works pretty good. So does closing the banks. And
simply not paying. Those all work pretty well.
Not paying is my method of choice. It works great when having multiple official identities, in particular. Collect money, don't pay taxes or credits, move, repeat.
Having diplomatic immunity helps, too :twisted:
Quote from: namuHaving diplomatic immunity helps, too :twisted:
diplomatic immunity = license to be one of the politically elite.
(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:5rIr3ThNeKsJ:http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/archive/anarchy-bee.gif)
I always find it better to have no official identy and to recieve all checks made out to "cash"
you guys are all so smart.
i selected financial economics as a major in college but you are the most reasonable of all my teachers and everything. one professor was strongly focused on economic development of third world countries. there we talked about wealth as not just money- infrastructure, human capital, etc etc. we also talked about debt burden, interest payments etc. but generally, the program at our college was not foundational. by this i mean the most that made sense in our major in terms of understanding the world around us was taught in the first two courses, macro and micro econ., specifically supply and demand.. and after this it got overly complicated and disconnected from real world matters, it seems to me. at least they didn't integrate econ enough with other fields, such as history, sociology, philosophy, etc. i take that back- i had one great prof for one class who included philosophy etc, even hegel and others in his teaching. he was the most "unhurried" relaxed of all my teachers i guess and he owned few successful businesses... i went to small private lutheran college in minnesota- a rival of st olaf where i believe fscot fitzgerald attended- only i was there 4 fucking years..
anyway they didn't discuss money system/banking system much. i believe it's like nietzsche said in twilight of idols:
Educators are needed who have themselves been educated, superior, noble spirits, proved at every moment, proved by words and silence, representing culture which has grown ripe and sweet,Äînot the learned louts whom secondary schools and universities today offer our youth as "higher wet nurses." Educators are lacking, not counting the most exceptional of exceptions
yeah, that and well i'm really interested know "who dun it", how it all came to be so i can defend my position. i'm avid student of history, reading interesting book called brief history of economic genius- in the tradition of nlp studying minds of genii and sub. anyway that's mighty interesting article.
another thought, since i was little (i'm i guess young adult now) i've always been aware of strange cult of gold lovers- ppl who won't invest in anything but solid metals and commodities like the people who host that story's webpage. strange, mebbe that's reality tunnel i'll have to put myself into nxt. i wonder what sense or nonsense this crew makes- they do seem so avid and ardent. i wonder what their numbers are like.
anyway of the few things i believe in almost totally one is emotion and rationalization. i know surrounding money (spending, saving, etc) there is heated emotion. i know debt = slavery, and regarding all rationalizing i'm doing silently i hope to develop a consciousness of rationalization. it's better than unconsciousness. one of the greatest books written of all time, imo- if you dig deep enough, you won't know unless you dig deep enough imo- is think and grow rich by napoleon hill, imo the greatest book about tapping potentials of human mind. and i also mightlely love the principia discordia illuminatus!
money mastery is part of game of life and to fix society- if you want to- you have to fix at individual level 1st- fix yourself, free from debt, etc etc etc. all hail discordia
p
what good books are there about banking system- history of banking, etc.
i think i remember hearing once the medici's of italy were the 1st banking family. i'm not sure
i know a lot of "truth" is shrouded in the mists of history- i wonder what there is to know about causes and forces and reactions and MONEY and the masses. who are some good authors, all hail discorida!
I think Economics is a lot like chemistry. Add some of this, mix with some of this, heat at this temperature, it produces this, and you lose this smallish part to transfers or evaporation, etc...
It's also a bit like physics, in that it behaves as a closed system on the global scale, and you can approximate most components with simple formulas.
And it's like philosphics, too, if you're talented enough you can bullshit other people into believing anything so it works out to your advantage.
I have heard it stated that the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith is a
must. And I think Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of
Crowds by Charles MacKay (originally published in 1841) is probably a
must. For contemporary personal finances you might try Andrew
Tobias.
BTW, the gold crowd these days is pretty much made up of two groups,
those who sell gold to suckers and those who write newsletters telling
suckers to buy gold. Everybody else thinks they are just a bunch of nuts.
But I'm a gnome, so you know which camp I am in.
Remember the Holey 5th Commandment !
are they commandments?
i thought they were aural vomit, thusly named as the penta barf.
commandment is synominous to vocal vomit
"a discordian is prohibited from believing anything he reads." is the commandment in question.
Quote from: namuHow do you make big money ? Simple, you print it. It costs $23 (I'm NOT making this up) to print 10,000 bank notes that value a million dollars in face value.
How do you make MORE big money ? Simple too, you print it, then lend it with interest like the Federal Reserve does. $23 investment turn into $1,000,000 + yearly 2% interest investment. Lather, rinse, repeat until the world is yours - that is, when all countries in the world have an interest debt higher than their internal wealth combined.
Who would have thought that taxes were little more than an indirect way for Fabian to force people (under threat of jail time) to pay the interest ?
You know what's funny. I worked out a way whereby it is possible for an entire country to remove the federal reserve without collapsing. (of course you need about 10,000 people willing to get shot to do so.)
WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLlllllllllllllllllllllllllllll what is it????????????????????///////////////////////////////////////slash
I'm sure I can come up with the 10,000 people willing to get shot. Once you show them that they can choose between a quick and painless gunshot or a very long and drawn out procedure involving removal of 55% of their skin, removal of all their bones, and several experiments involving long metal spikes and a blowtorch, they seem to beg to be shot.
well, where the hell did i put that time machine?? I think it is time for some good old fashioned fucking with space/time. Awaiting final confrimation from NSRA command to commence operations.
Personally this is part of the reason i have never had a bank account, a good friend of mine got into a situation with a well known "Banking" institution (Cough WaMU Cough) where he over drew his checking account by something like 25 dollars... within one week the total "OVERDRAFT" charge was up to $400. The initial 25, the 25 charge for the over draft, then the next day another 25 charge on the 25 charge on the initial 25 "debt". That and i never liked it when i would deposit money in a bank and not spend it only to find next week that i had 100 dollars less in my account when i checked it... causing me to overdraw my account due to me thinking i had hte money in there... the bank would charge me an over draft charge and then the next week the money that had disappeared would be back in the account... AFTER i had already been forced to pay the overdraft charges or have my account forcibly closed lossing that last 100 dollars...to this day i SPIT on every SeaFirst/Bank of America that i see... i do not have credit, i do not have a checking or savings account. i get my check cash it and leave the money at home...
What i really want to know is when did they take off the Payable to bearer in gold/silver apon demand at any bank? i have a really old 2 dollar bill floating around that still says that...
for anyone else interested in this, here is an artical that caught my eye on the home page for the initial story...
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/willie111604.html
lost me on most of the acronyms but the general gyst of the article is clear.
moving to Europe is sounding more and more like a good plan... besides i havent been to Germany since '91... would be good to go back when i can enjoy it.
Quote from: Nikoli VolkoffWhat i really want to know is when did they take off the Payable to bearer in gold/silver apon demand at any bank? i have a really old 2 dollar bill floating around that still says that...
1933
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Note
why thank you dear Gnome... much appreciated.. heres a special Double Chocolate, chocolate chip cookie that weighs as much as you.... enjoy
Well, this little essay is interesting, but it overlooks the one most basic principle of economic thought: money has no value. All those dollars and pounds, pesos and yen, mean absolutly nothing in the way of wealth. Wealth is what money gets you.
If the suppliers of money required return of real goods and labor, they might be wealthier, but this "the world plus 10%" doesn't work out. It is possible to create greater wealth than the 10% interest charged (in fact, that is the norm). Wealth is labor. Raw materials. New ideas.
Money is just a way of keeping score.
Thank you, Nikki. The cookie is munch, munch delicious!
You do know that listening to gnomes is the first sign of dementia.
Agreeing with gnomes is the second sign of dementia.
Agreeing with both Graud and Roger simultaneously is the 23rd sign of dementia.
HOWEVER,
Giving a gnome cookies is the first step towards enlightenment.
BTW, SMFabal. The wiki article says, "The notes have no value for
themselves, but for what they will buy." Isn't that the same as what
you said? Also, the federal reserve does not charge interest on
federal reserve notes. Nor do they pay any.
True, but all later descriptions of financial interactions read as though money were the value. Meh - it makes sence in my head, but I cna't really explain it.
Quote from: SMFabalTrue, but all later descriptions of financial interactions read as though money were the value. Meh - it makes sence in my head, but I cna't really explain it.
Sounds like a personal problem to me.
Oh, wait. Everything is a personal problem, isn't it?
At least, it is not
my problem.
My problem is insufficient cookies.
Have I mentioned lately that I love all you people?
*group hugs everyone*
*pulls out the spines that accidentally got stuck in the hugged*
::Plants Prickly's spine next to his cactus::
Thanks.
Quote from: gnimbleyQuote from: SMFabalTrue, but all later descriptions of financial interactions read as though money were the value. Meh - it makes sence in my head, but I cna't really explain it.
Sounds like a personal problem to me.
Oh, wait. Everything is a personal problem, isn't it?
At least, it is not my problem.
My problem is insufficient cookies.
Ah, it seems we were refering to different articles! I was talking about this one: http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/hannigan092099.html
Non-malicious bump.
Just to show not everything pre-coup was retarded.
Quote from: Cain on April 27, 2012, 06:29:24 PM
Non-malicious bump.
Just to show not everything pre-coup was retarded.
I found this an interesting read, but the story being hosted on a gold investment site makes me a little... cautious as to how much salt it should be taken with. I would appreciate a little instruction, my economic knowledge is limited to common sense and intuition (at times, that is enough to serve my purposes, however, the limitations are obvious), and a little "formal" education on the matter would be cool.
v read down v Maybe its right? maybe its wrong ?/?
Quote from: namu on August 18, 2004, 04:35:08 PM
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/hannigan092099.html
(http://namu.free.fr/paslunettes.jpg)
This is a fantastic read. Simple enough for even children (though not too young) to understand, and thought-provoking.
2 KAN if U Likei Kan remove this post
if it is still here Friday the bet is off /-/owever | namu.free.fr
is that really U a real FrenchMan ?/?
===========
Anyway IC the frenchman has not logged in in years so my guess is this remains
capitol R {sorry| (forward} my guess is come May ? WiLL move the 3 here from
financial? Just a few days from now /-/A:
December 26, 2004, tsunami over US$7 billion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake) Mar 11, 2011 tsunami ($309bn) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMgzn6r_ihA)
(http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au00-pres.gif)
currently somewhere between 120,000 and 140,000 tonnes of gold 'above ground
1 Tonnes (metric ton) into Grams Result: 1,000,000 = 130,000,000,000 130Billion g
?\8B = .6¢/g = about 20¢/oz | ?\333B bout $2.5/g $75/oz
bout 23 grams per person, bout $250 - $350 worth per person
ANYWAY this is not making much ¢ents at this time
(Read 4575 times) ? 3 CHICCHAN p64 & the 3 of them :fnord: (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,20156.945.html) YES:
i'LL Try2 Watch M
Quote from: Cuddlefish on April 28, 2012, 11:29:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 27, 2012, 06:29:24 PM
Non-malicious bump.
Just to show not everything pre-coup was retarded.
I found this an interesting read, but the story being hosted on a gold investment site makes me a little... cautious as to how much salt it should be taken with. I would appreciate a little instruction, my economic knowledge is limited to common sense and intuition (at times, that is enough to serve my purposes, however, the limitations are obvious), and a little "formal" education on the matter would be cool.
Yeah, it's some pretty ham-fisted propaganda on behalf of goldbugs, it must be said.
The ensuing conversation on here was pretty good though.
Quote from: Cain on April 29, 2012, 08:58:42 PM
Quote from: Cuddlefish on April 28, 2012, 11:29:36 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 27, 2012, 06:29:24 PM
Non-malicious bump.
Just to show not everything pre-coup was retarded.
I found this an interesting read, but the story being hosted on a gold investment site makes me a little... cautious as to how much salt it should be taken with. I would appreciate a little instruction, my economic knowledge is limited to common sense and intuition (at times, that is enough to serve my purposes, however, the limitations are obvious), and a little "formal" education on the matter would be cool.
Yeah, it's some pretty ham-fisted propaganda on behalf of goldbugs, it must be said.
The ensuing conversation on here was pretty good though.
I can see "ham-fisted." Buuuut, "all things are partially true, partially false, and partially meaningless." Is there any truth to this ham-fisted manifesto?
Quote from: Cain on April 29, 2012, 08:58:42 PM
am-fisted propaganda
? 7 ? THUS: on tv i did see the aganda about 1k/g
as the Maid for TV price quote for the Ca Meteroite bits
i pose now i need to ercalculate the old 9e9 value of the Oregon
meteroRITE in NY BUUT later gotta go to the bank | IF i get UP: 10:26 /-/
WHAT we need to do is simple, but HOW to do it I have absolutely no idea...
Someone, somewhere, somehow, has to initiate runs on the following banks:
Bank of America
Bank of China
Bank of New York Mellon
Banque Populaire CE
Barclays
BNP Paribas
Citigroup
Commerzbank
Credit Suisse
Deutsche Bank
Dexia
Goldman Sachs
Crédit Agricole
HSBC
ING Bank
JP Morgan Chase
Lloyds Banking Group
Mitsubishi UFJ FG
Mizuho FG
Morgan Stanley
Nordea
Royal Bank of Scotland
Santander
Société Générale
State Street
Sumitomo Mitsui
UBS
Unicredit Group
Wells Fargo
See also :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemically_important_financial_institution#List_of_banks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemically_important_financial_institution#List_of_banks)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_big_to_fail#Financial_Stability_Board_list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_big_to_fail#Financial_Stability_Board_list)
Can't run on banks which make most of their profits from lending and investment.
Why not? { 'cause they R heavy: 6:40?xx
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on May 05, 2012, 03:42:15 AM
HOW to do it I have absolutely no idea...
iT is reasonably easy NEXT time you
are in a bank simply ASK for what they do not have
USually they do not have US 1/2 dollar coins aka 50¢ pieces
also low numbers of $2. bills, Always buy all the have
IF they have | that is the main rule | if they have buy them all.!.
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2012, 06:31:44 PM
Can't run on banks which make most of their profits from lending and investment.
Why not?
Quote from: Net on May 08, 2012, 01:58:54 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2012, 06:31:44 PM
Can't run on banks which make most of their profits from lending and investment.
Why not?
... because how the hell do you withdraw your mortgage from the bank? Or convince other corporations to pull out their employees 401k investments?
The Golden Eagle has landed
Really, this sounds plausible to you? It may show some things about the way people view money and other ways to view it than you are accustomed. But the story at it's base doesn't seem like a very accurate metaphor for how money was created.
The whole point of money is that it is an abstraction. Barter is inefficient for any large scale trading, so people created an abstract method to barter in bulk. Gold was a good choice for this at the time because it was not easy for most people to amass or forge (both methods to keep people from just making more). It has no intrinsic value other than what we have given it (for instance sometimes shells, that you can pick up on the beach, were used).
Eventually our ability to trade efficiently outstripped our ability to move gold around, so we made it out of paper, representing the gold. And after that the inherently finite nature of gold caused problems when the amount of goods and services made the gold so expensive that only very rich men could have 'real' money. So we broke the last physical barrier to free trade and made the money completely abstract.
Is this a bad thing? a good thing? I'm sure both of those are true, according to the viewpoint from which you wish to take.
The original article oversimplifies the 'story' of money and exhibits a strong bias in my opinion. First, they pronounce the only thing gov't was for, "In each community a simple Government had been formed to make sure that each person's freedoms and rights were protected and that no man was forced to do anything against his will by any other man, or any group of men. This was the Government's one and only purpose and each Governor was voluntarily supported by the local community who elected him."
I can't think of a single gov't, until the past two or three hundred years that was anything close to that. Although our gov't is similar in scope, whether it has ever delivered on it is debatable, or at least has been debated ad nauseum. Traditionally governments throughout history have tried to keep control of the money supply. Partly to be able to control economy when beneficial and always as a way to maintain control of the society they represent. Remember the story of Jesus and the moneylenders? Judaism required that money for sacrifice to jehovah be in Israeli coin, but the romans outlawed the use of foreign currency. The Jewish moneylenders then made money in the conversion. How does this fit the original article? Was it a conspiracy of the bankers? Or an expected outcome of competing currencies in a volatile environment?
After dispensing quickly with how the 'money' system was developed, the article moves on to describe the nature of current economic woes. It is interesting that the idea of taxing is brought up as having been designed to solve social ills in response to the problems of money. I'm not completely sure, but the concepts of taxes and tribute weren't created exactly that way in the history I've read.
In conclusion, the original article, is a piece of propaganda that is dressed up like an allegorical story.