I suppose we should have one.
This one is hitting me particularly hard.
Not to dictate, but perhaps this thread can be a record of the most factual and accurate reporting, rather than a fetid swamp of homophobic public figures posting bullshit?
At least for a few days.
Seconding that request. If we have screencaps of such things, please instead post them to the Political Pictures thread.
Jesus. Do yourselves a favor and don't click the links to the live feeds. Especially the live blogs from inside the club as it was happening. Fucking nightmare fuel. I started just bawling uncontrollably at one point and had to go take a shower. It's that bad.
I have a friend missing right now.
Every time somebody posts something politicizing this, my anger grows exponentially. I feel as if I'm going to unleash a rain of fire on Facebook so hard I'll be banned from the internet for life.
Quote from: SuuCal on June 12, 2016, 09:52:04 PM
I have a friend missing right now.
Every time somebody posts something politicizing this, my anger grows exponentially. I feel as if I'm going to unleash a rain of fire on Facebook so hard I'll be banned from the internet for life.
Very sorry to hear this. I hope they're ok.
I just heard my coworker saying he over-heard one of his customers arguing with another customer about whether or not the whole thing was an inside job/hoax. I honestly don't even know what to say to shit like that.
I'm sorry Suu.
I have shit to do today. I can't this. My cousins are in Orlando but none of them are gaybar types and all are accounted for anyway. Just, fuck. Forever.
Friend accounted for. It was a communications breakdown, and his cellphone died for other reasons, like they do. He's fine. I've been on the edge of sick to my stomach all day, though. *sigh*
A Muslim man attacking a gay club on Latino night is the most twisted take on the American dream you can think of. It's what we are now, a 21st century melting pot of hate and tragedy. There's something terribly wrong with us and we all seem to agree on that alone and will eat each other to prove it.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on June 13, 2016, 05:17:51 AM
A Muslim man attacking a gay club on Latino night is the most twisted take on the American dream you can think of. It's what we are now, a 21st century melting pot of hate and tragedy. There's something terribly wrong with us and we all seem to agree on that alone and will eat each other to prove it.
This is really the best thing I've read all day.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on June 12, 2016, 07:35:50 PM
Jesus. Do yourselves a favor and don't click the links to the live feeds. Especially the live blogs from inside the club as it was happening. Fucking nightmare fuel. I started just bawling uncontrollably at one point and had to go take a shower. It's that bad.
I have to say, I've been considering it.
However, I will wait until I've actually slept first. I mostly want to see if the claims the gunman (via everyone's favourite IRA sympathizer, Peter King) had training have any credence.
Chances are, in addition to being horrific, the footage won't be that good of the gunman himself anyway. Maybe by the time I've had chance to sleep, we will know more.
My husband is a wonderful person. He left CNN off the TV at the office all day for me without even being asked.
Hey Cain,
When you get the chance let us know what you think about the IS link. Most news sources are just a shitshow at the moment with reaction comments so I've got no idea if it has any validity.
This is awful, the world just seems to be getting shittier and shittier over the last few years. I feel horrible for the families and friends of the victims.
Quote from: Faust on June 13, 2016, 02:57:00 PM
This is awful, the world just seems to be getting shittier and shittier over the last few years. I feel horrible for the families and friends of the victims.
Don't believe the hype, mate, it'll only get you down. There was a ton of cool shit happened over the weekend but none of that ever reaches the front page. Sure, 50 people dying is a shame. Doubly so cos the reason they died was one guy being a total dick but people die every day, it's the downside of being made out of slowly decaying meat.
The important thing is to not get all bent out of shape cos some people died. The important thing is to keep a cool head and a bit of perspective and not go waving a fistful of liberties in the air, demanding that something is done to stop this ever happening again.
Cos it will happen again (there will always be dicks) The guys who are offering to make it go away in exchange for those shiny liberties? They're the biggest dicks of all and they never offer refunds even when they fail to deliver.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 13, 2016, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 13, 2016, 02:57:00 PM
This is awful, the world just seems to be getting shittier and shittier over the last few years. I feel horrible for the families and friends of the victims.
Don't believe the hype, mate, it'll only get you down. There was a ton of cool shit happened over the weekend but none of that ever reaches the front page. Sure, 50 people dying is a shame. Doubly so cos the reason they died was one guy being a total dick but people die every day, it's the downside of being made out of slowly decaying meat.
The important thing is to not get all bent out of shape cos some people died. The important thing is to keep a cool head and a bit of perspective and not go waving a fistful of liberties in the air, demanding that something is done to stop this ever happening again.
Cos it will happen again (there will always be dicks) The guys who are offering to make it go away in exchange for those shiny liberties? They're the biggest dicks of all and they never offer refunds even when they fail to deliver.
but other heads will not stay cool.
a machine or submachine is spinning up
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 13, 2016, 01:38:43 PM
Hey Cain,
When you get the chance let us know what you think about the IS link. Most news sources are just a shitshow at the moment with reaction comments so I've got no idea if it has any validity.
Could be plausible, could be bull. Until they raid his apartment and get access to his computers, I'm witholding judgement.
The claim of responsibility came, what, 6 hours after the attack? That's an awfully long time to wait. ISIS is also loosing all its actual military battles, so the perception of a win would be most welcome for them.
On the other hand, claiming terrorist attacks that are not yours will undermine your credibility in the long run. And if he's just some incidental loser who watched a few jihadi videos on Youtube...well for me, that's not strong enough to be considered a link.
Peter King, chair of the House...Intelligence Committee (I think), claims the gunman had training. Implication being there was intelligence of him attending an ISIS training camp. On the other hand, King has a hard-on for persecuting Muslims for terrorism, which is somewhat hypocritical when you consider his own history of support of the IRA.
Obama has said there's no direct evidence linking the gunman to Islamic State.
Quote from: Cain on June 13, 2016, 05:11:04 PM
Obama has said there's no direct evidence linking the gunman to Islamic State.
Form what I heard it seems like it's complicated. I heard that he had said he was doing it in the name of ISIS but he wasn't actually working for ISIS; that he was just some random lunatic who had been influenced by their propaganda.
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 13, 2016, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 13, 2016, 05:11:04 PM
Obama has said there's no direct evidence linking the gunman to Islamic State.
Form what I heard it seems like it's complicated. I heard that he had said he was doing it in the name of ISIS but he wasn't actually working for ISIS; that he was just some random lunatic who had been influenced by their propaganda.
Seems like an easy way to be even edgier.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 13, 2016, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: Faust on June 13, 2016, 02:57:00 PM
This is awful, the world just seems to be getting shittier and shittier over the last few years. I feel horrible for the families and friends of the victims.
Don't believe the hype, mate, it'll only get you down. There was a ton of cool shit happened over the weekend but none of that ever reaches the front page. Sure, 50 people dying is a shame. Doubly so cos the reason they died was one guy being a total dick but people die every day, it's the downside of being made out of slowly decaying meat.
The important thing is to not get all bent out of shape cos some people died. The important thing is to keep a cool head and a bit of perspective and not go waving a fistful of liberties in the air, demanding that something is done to stop this ever happening again.
Cos it will happen again (there will always be dicks) The guys who are offering to make it go away in exchange for those shiny liberties? They're the biggest dicks of all and they never offer refunds even when they fail to deliver.
There is a lot of cool shit going on this weekend, the first ever treatment of MS going into controlled remission, antibiotic resistant TB treated with non AB drugs, renewable energy over the last month has pushed grid operator's carbon emissions behind combined domestic use for like the first time since the industrial era.
I wasn't suggesting something need be done about this. I've already seen people on Facebook clamouring upon the gun legislation, on arguing over whatever banality Trump came out with, but now isn't the time.
It wasn't what I was getting at with my last post, I'd rather find out the names of the victims, instead of turning this into #TrendingIssue and I know I've made the case in the past that I don't see any reasonable need for gun ownership, I still don't. But legislation wouldn't have saved these people, the genie is out of the bottle and he would have gotten his hands on a weapon regardless.
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 13, 2016, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 13, 2016, 05:11:04 PM
Obama has said there's no direct evidence linking the gunman to Islamic State.
Form what I heard it seems like it's complicated. I heard that he had said he was doing it in the name of ISIS but he wasn't actually working for ISIS; that he was just some random lunatic who had been influenced by their propaganda.
That doesn't sound all that complicated.
He may not have even been influenced by their propaganda. Going by the character assessments of him by people who knew him currently in the media, he was always short-tempered, violent and a raging homophobe. He apparently wasn't religious at all, and aside from that, his work positions may have meant he was under scrutiny for that sort of content anyway (he was a licenced security guard, I believe?)
The whole ISIS thing may have been little more than a final "fuck you", or way to try and increase the impact of his attack further, to have more noteriety in death.
If that is the case, the prolific spreaders of Islamophobic content on social media for the past couple of days should feel even more ashamed of themselves than they normally should.
The part that made me cry was the recollection of the police man, on the scene afterwards, of all of the cell phones ringing as the loved ones of the victims tried to call to make sure they were ok.
Quote from: Cain on June 14, 2016, 01:40:44 AM
He may not have even been influenced by their propaganda. Going by the character assessments of him by people who knew him currently in the media, he was always short-tempered, violent and a raging homophobe. He apparently wasn't religious at all, and aside from that, his work positions may have meant he was under scrutiny for that sort of content anyway (he was a licenced security guard, I believe?)
The whole ISIS thing may have been little more than a final "fuck you", or way to try and increase the impact of his attack further, to have more noteriety in death.
If that is the case, the prolific spreaders of Islamophobic content on social media for the past couple of days should feel even more ashamed of themselves than they normally should.
I remember rolling through a link provided by a discordian on FB that was the original thread on this "4chan" that the fucker in Oregon announced his intent in. Motherfuckers were bizarrely jubilant at even jumping in on an "epic fread" long after the fact. It felt like I was seeing a weaponized version of the basic shitty human tendency to treat folks worse over the phone than face to face when feeling hostile, one born of a sense of total anonymity and a long-spoiled morality.
There's no need for a real connection to a given terrorist organization as long as the lingering toxic effects of these ideologies continue to get soaked up by folks already falling down for other base, likely unconscious, reasons. But the faking it is empowering in a very dangerous way all on it's own, a secondary infection of sorts that mimics the symptoms of the more dangerous pathogen.
Hey BTW was hoping to read your big final article for school on the right and Brevik specifically IIRC.
May I have a link to a PDF version if possible please?
So,I haven't read too much because brainweasels, but it looks like the shooter may have been a regular? And his dad is super homophobic in super public ways. What are the odds on this being a twisted self-hatey thing?
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 14, 2016, 11:53:24 AM
So,I haven't read too much because brainweasels, but it looks like the shooter may have been a regular? And his dad is super homophobic in super public ways. What are the odds on this being a twisted self-hatey thing?
It's a possibility that's currently being aired. I believe there were also gay dating apps on his phone.
On the other hand, if I hated homosexuals sufficiently enough to shoot up a nightclub, I would also be carrying out reconaissance and dry runs. Such things would include going to said nightclub more than a few times (and smuggling in the weapon with me), and likely involve online research to select the best target for my attack.
It's also worth mentioning he was an armed security guard for G4S. Now G4S are pretty much a joke as far as I am concerned, regarding corporate security, but I do think it means we should consider the possibility that his pre-attack phase may have been a little more sophisticated than normal. Especially as he was on the FBI's radar - he had been questioned twice regarding links to ISIS, or ISIS members, even though those links could not be made (again, suggesting his closing statements may have been some form of "fuck you" to the FBI).
I have to admit, I also have a level of discomfort with how quickly the media has latched onto the possibility he was a self-loathing gay man. Just as they previously latched onto the idea that he was an ISIS operative. I think it's rather telling that the media have been so eager to Other Omar Mateen, first attempting to play off one form of minority rights against another (LGBT+ Unity...so long as they use the right bathrooms) and now with the unsettling implication that this is somehow the gay community's problem. I know you're not saying that, QG, I really wouldn't believe anyone here would. But it is an undercurrent to the idea that Mateen is a self-loathing homosexual that the media is right now suggesting, and people will pick up on that subtext.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on June 14, 2016, 02:46:09 AM
Hey BTW was hoping to read your big final article for school on the right and Brevik specifically IIRC.
May I have a link to a PDF version if possible please?
I'll send you a PM sometime later today (final draft is on my external drive atm)
Quote from: Cain on June 14, 2016, 02:10:51 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on June 14, 2016, 02:46:09 AM
Hey BTW was hoping to read your big final article for school on the right and Brevik specifically IIRC.
May I have a link to a PDF version if possible please?
I'll send you a PM sometime later today (final draft is on my external drive atm)
Thanks for the above, can I second this request?
Quote from: Cain on June 14, 2016, 02:10:51 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on June 14, 2016, 02:46:09 AM
Hey BTW was hoping to read your big final article for school on the right and Brevik specifically IIRC.
May I have a link to a PDF version if possible please?
I'll send you a PM sometime later today (final draft is on my external drive atm)
Thanks!
Quote from: Cain on June 14, 2016, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 14, 2016, 11:53:24 AM
So,I haven't read too much because brainweasels, but it looks like the shooter may have been a regular? And his dad is super homophobic in super public ways. What are the odds on this being a twisted self-hatey thing?
It's a possibility that's currently being aired. I believe there were also gay dating apps on his phone.
On the other hand, if I hated homosexuals sufficiently enough to shoot up a nightclub, I would also be carrying out reconaissance and dry runs. Such things would include going to said nightclub more than a few times (and smuggling in the weapon with me), and likely involve online research to select the best target for my attack.
It's also worth mentioning he was an armed security guard for G4S. Now G4S are pretty much a joke as far as I am concerned, regarding corporate security, but I do think it means we should consider the possibility that his pre-attack phase may have been a little more sophisticated than normal. Especially as he was on the FBI's radar - he had been questioned twice regarding links to ISIS, or ISIS members, even though those links could not be made (again, suggesting his closing statements may have been some form of "fuck you" to the FBI).
I have to admit, I also have a level of discomfort with how quickly the media has latched onto the possibility he was a self-loathing gay man. Just as they previously latched onto the idea that he was an ISIS operative. I think it's rather telling that the media have been so eager to Other Omar Mateen, first attempting to play off one form of minority rights against another (LGBT+ Unity...so long as they use the right bathrooms) and now with the unsettling implication that this is somehow the gay community's problem. I know you're not saying that, QG, I really wouldn't believe anyone here would. But it is an undercurrent to the idea that Mateen is a self-loathing homosexual that the media is right now suggesting, and people will pick up on that subtext.
It's weird, because to me it wasn't "othering," it was bringing him in. You're one of us, you just got fucked in the head and maybe we can figure out how to prevent future people from getting the fucks the same way. It's that blackboxing impulse, "If we just figure out
what went wrong..." but you can't always figure out what went wrong and even if you do there's no guarantee it's something you can fix and planes still fall out of the sky sometimes no matter how much we try to stop it from happening. My critical thinking's off though.
I hope your reading is the correct one, it's definitely a more optimistic way of approaching it.
I've just about given up hope of the media ever covering terrorism in a responsible way, at this moment in time.
(if anyone else wants the dissertation link, just send me a PM)
So... (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html)
QuoteSince the shooting at an Orlando nightclub last week that left 49 people dead, reports have emerged that gunman Omar Mateen frequented the gay club, used gay dating apps and had gay lovers.
But the FBI has found no evidence so far to support claims by those who say Mateen had gay lovers or communicated on gay dating apps, several law enforcement officials said.
Mateen, 29, told police negotiators he had carried out the shooting that began at 2 a.m. June 12 and ended, after a three-hour standoff, when he was killed by police.
He claimed the shooting was carried out in allegiance to the militant group Islamic State, as a message to halt U.S. bombing in Iraq and Syria.
Several Pulse regulars have come forward in the days since the shooting, claiming to have seen Mateen at the club or to have been contacted by him on the gay dating apps Grindr, Jack'd and Adam4Adam.
On Tuesday, Univision aired a report in which "Miguel," a man wearing a disguise to conceal his identity, alleged he had sex with Mateen after meeting him on the gay dating app, Grindr. He said Mateen had sex with other men too, including a threesome with a Puerto Rican who allegedly told Mateen, after having had unprotected sex with him, that he was HIV positive.
But investigators do not consider the man's account credible, according to one senior law enforcement official with access to the investigation.
In seeking to verify the reports, federal agents have culled Mateen's electronic devices, including a laptop computer and cellphone, as well as electronic communications of those who made the claims, law enforcement officials said.
So far, they have found no photographs, no text messages, no smartphone apps, no gay pornography and no cell-tower location data to suggest that Mateen — who was twice married to women and had a young son — conducted a secret gay life, the officials said.
The FBI is continuing to explore Mateen's past, but investigators now believe the men who made the claims are not credible, or confused Mateen with someone else.
The FBI has not said whether it has uncovered any evidence that Mateen visited the Pulse nightclub prior to the shooting.
But law enforcement sources did say that investigators have not uncovered any direct links between Mateen and members of Islamic State.
I came to peedee after it, but I have close family in Orlando. Specifically, my dad's cousin but more like an uncle figure. He's not in the closet, but no one in my closed minded tennessee family are aware of his lifestyle.
I lived with him for 2 summers from 16 - 17. He got me a job at disney, working in concessions at blizzard beach (mini donut stand across from beach haus for those of you that have been.) This was in 2002 & 2003. Prior to the first summer, he came out to me. I'm apparently the only one he's ever come out to. His method is "if anyone asks ill tell them the truth", but being a southern family, no one has the gall to ask him directly and it's don't ask don't tell. I endearingly refer to him as my guncle, or gay uncle. He's awesome.
Over those summers he was a member of a gay bowling league. Took me to said league every tuesday. Made some lifelong friends through that, all older than me. Still text a few of them a few times a year.
Guncle's type are latinos. Specifically, barely legal latino boys. He likes em young and bronze. I'm not one that ever has anxiety about anything, but the morning of I was freaking out when I found out the details of it. Luckily, my old curmudgeon guncle was home in bed & was shocked the next morning.
One of my friends from the bowling league had a close friend that didn't make it out. One of guncle's friends & his partner were there. The partner didn't make it out. His friend was hit, but had no idea until about 40 minutes afterwards - he was bleeding profusely and thought it was all someone else's blood.
Guncle lives a few blocks over from orange avenue. Have another friend there whom I met in college via WoW - he was a guildie. Have drank and hung out with him multiple times in the 407. He heard the shots from his house.
I was pretty shaken by this. I was a hour+ away from the aurora theater when it happened, at a different midnight showing. Even then, it didn't really hit me deeply. This one fucked me up for a while. I know some business owners of a casket company in Orlando. NYT, AP, and others were on site and taking pics and interviewing the owners in the aftermath. Had pics of their inventory up on the "this week in pictures" sections, too.
Just writing this out now all because I can. Shits fucked. There's so much more I could say and discuss, especially on the times. My first pride parade/events were in orlando. o-town was my first gay life exposure. hell, summers with guncle and the culture shock from it really shaped me into the person I am today.
I thought abotu throwing something up in or kill me, decided against it. So there's my very miniature discussion/perspective.
We're fucked as a species.