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While it's good that you are trying to view your situation analytically, remember that the same mind that you are using to fix the problem is the same mind that created the problem (the depression). That's why it's impossible to "think your way out of depression". I would encourage you instead to focus your energy on taking care of yourself today, just at this moment. That means eating well, taking a walk, taking a shower... I'm sure you've heard it all before. I know it sounds pointless and not a real solution to your difficulties,  but I promise you will feel better, and that is a step in the right direction.

I'm really sad to hear that you're feeling so awful. I know it's a horrible cliché thing to say, but you are not alone. I also know the pain of having been unfairly shafted by family members, and the fear of not knowing where to live and how I'm going to take care of myself. So overwhelming. I wish I could give you a hug through the internet.

I don't think anyone has ever told you, or made you feel like you matter in life. So let me tell you that YOU MATTER. Your feelings matter, your thoughts matter, and your achievements matter (I say this because reading your post, I don't think you've given yourself credit for what you have achieved and celebrated them). You matter.

If you ever need someone to talk to, or just to vent, please PM me.

Yum! What kind of cheese did you use?

I also want to repeat, again, that I brought that my friend up AS AN EXAMPLE of a commonplace occurrence, and that the point of this thread is not to solve an interpersonal problem.

However, one thing I have gotten from this thread is that if I do broach the subject with any mansplainer, I better sugar-coat the everloving fuck out of it, or it will all be my fault because his feelings will hurt.

Sorry about that, Nigel.  I went back and realized the OP didn't ask for solutions.  I was thinking of this one, further down the page:

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?

Anyway, I'm not sure I have much else to offer, but I'll keep thinking about it.  Thanks for bringing it up.

I think that in some cases the mind goes to "I will find a simple mechanical solution and offer an answer" instead of thinking about the larger issues around an issue, because it's easier, it's tidy. It's like the reflex that leads to statements that start "Well, they should just..." in response to large, complex issues. It's the reflex that leads to conspiracy theories, because someone in charge of making bad stuff happen in a completely controllable way is a lot more comforting than the idea that bad things happen and nobody's in control. Sometimes, if there isn't actually a simple solvable problem being presented, people will go so far as to unconsciously invent one, so as to be able to offer a simple solution and avoid thinking about the larger, more uncomfortable problem.

I think that's a huge part of what happened in this thread.

The people who are saying "We're your friends, you should give us the benefit of the doubt" are missing the point that this is about behavior, not personhood. Being my friend doesn't mean the behavior didn't happen. Being well-intentioned doesn't matter; what matters is being willing to examine the behavior, and the assumptions behind the behavior, and change it if appropriate. If you refuse to acknowledge that the behavior is a problem because you're not "like that", then you will continue doing it. Because almost nobody thinks of themselves as being "like that". Most people don't think they're racist, but they are. Most people don't think they're sexist, but they are. I'm sexist. It's built into the fabric of the culture that I was raised in. I consistently, reflexively expect Alty to open the door or carry something heavy for me, even though I'm stronger than he is.

We're all sexist, and the US in particular is a remarkably sexist nation. Special pleading doesn't change that. Being a feminist doesn't change it, either. The only thing that changes it is being willing to hear criticism and look at areas of our own behavior that we can consciously change, even when it's uncomfortable and makes us feel defensive. Being able to have an actual dialogue about it, without dumbing it down to pat individual-level "solutions", is a starting point.

Thank you, Nigel, for expounding on this. I'll definitely be thinking about this and trying to keep it in mind. I'll also try to be more careful in reading the context/intent of posts so as to avoid future putting-of-foot-into-mouth.

"Hey I'm not gonna read or think about what you wrote, I'm just gonna respond to what I think you wrote, tell you you're wrong, too aggressive, too patronizing, unclear in your wording, and give you an irrelevant answer to a question you didn't ask, and act butthurt when you point it out."

I hope you're able, at some point, to recognize that pain as cognitive dissonance, because it will help you a lot if you figure it out.

I really do apologize for misconstruing what you wanted from this thread. I'm not upset at you pointing it out, but rather your tone and sarcasm, which I think is unduly combative. It's painful to me because you're someone that I like and respect, and was not expecting to receive such harsh opprobrium.

Well, I appreciate that you like and respect me, and thanks for the open-faced compliment sandwich, but I also think you're being patronizing and a little bit stereotypically manipulative, via telling me that I am being "harsh", "unduly combative", "...assertive", and "vitriolic" in order to shut me down when I pointed out actual mansplaining taking place in the mansplaining thread.

Seriously, Chelagoras pointing out that men and women have different communication styles was classic.

It actually is funny as hell, when you see it.

Wow, I really regret having ever posted in this thread. If what I write is going to continue to be taken in the absolute worst light possible, then I see no reason for further discussion.

"Hey I'm not gonna read or think about what you wrote, I'm just gonna respond to what I think you wrote, tell you you're wrong, too aggressive, too patronizing, unclear in your wording, and give you an irrelevant answer to a question you didn't ask, and act butthurt when you point it out."

I hope you're able, at some point, to recognize that pain as cognitive dissonance, because it will help you a lot if you figure it out.

I really do apologize for misconstruing what you wanted from this thread. I'm not upset at you pointing it out, but rather your tone and sarcasm, which I think is unduly combative. It's painful to me because you're someone that I like and respect, and was not expecting to receive such harsh opprobrium.

Nigel, to be honest, your derisive tone is actually pretty hurtful.

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?

^ I know that this was technically the second post in the thread, not the OP, but I interpreted this that you also wanted advice on what to say to your friend( I also know that it's not meant to be the main topic).

The question was whether I should tell my friend that he is mansplaining.


Why is this hard?

Okay, now I understand that you just wanted a yes or no answer to that. I'm sorry for not catching that.

Nigel, would you please give us the benefit of the doubt? Rereading this thread, I think people are sincerely trying to contribute to this thread as they understand it, and not trying to patronize you or dismiss you. I also think you're being rather vitriolic about it.

Nast and Chelagoras, I'm actually having a super hard time figuring out whether you two are being dense and patronizing on purpose to be funny. If you are, I apologize for not picking up on the joke.

If I'm being dense, I'm not being dense on purpose. I'm also not trying to be patronizing or funny at all.

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?

^ I know that this was technically the second post in the thread, not the OP, but I interpreted this that you also wanted advice on what to say to your friend( I also know that it's not meant to be the main topic).

I'm certainly not doing him, or others who engage in mansplaining, any favors by maintaining the status quo and deflecting rather than pointing it out when it happens. On the other hand, women who complain about mansplaining, condescention, or other commonplace elements of misogynistic microaggression tend to be quickly dismissed as shrill, hysterical feminist social justice warriors who are overreacting over something insignificant. In fact, even in the course of this conversation, I leveraged LMNO's mention of misogyny in order to bolster the credibility of that claim, because I know that if I was the one to bring it up it would be more likely to be dismissed. I know this because of 44 years of experience being female in the US, and a degree in psychology, and it's a well-studied phenomenon from which nobody is immune, and yet I am explaining this right now because I know that many people's first reaction to reading that would be "oh, come on, give me a break".

I'm kind of confused by this thread by right now. You created a thread to discuss what are the mansplaining, asking for people's advice on how to deal with friends who are mansplainers, but you already seem to have all the answers in your mind right now.

What about my indecision gives you that idea? Or am I supposed to not think while I write, nor come up with clarifying thoughts over the course of a conversation? This isn't really a "give me advice" thread, it's more of a "let's talk about this thing" thread.

Sorry, I'm much slower to write and respond to posts than you so allow me to catch up. *Breathes* Okay. I think what is tripping me up is your debating/discussion style, which is very...assertive...and so I didn't pick up any indecision at all. But now I understand that debating/discussing is how you are making up your mind. It's just different than how I think, I guess. I'm not trying to insinuate any of those things you think I may be insinuating.

I'm certainly not doing him, or others who engage in mansplaining, any favors by maintaining the status quo and deflecting rather than pointing it out when it happens. On the other hand, women who complain about mansplaining, condescention, or other commonplace elements of misogynistic microaggression tend to be quickly dismissed as shrill, hysterical feminist social justice warriors who are overreacting over something insignificant. In fact, even in the course of this conversation, I leveraged LMNO's mention of misogyny in order to bolster the credibility of that claim, because I know that if I was the one to bring it up it would be more likely to be dismissed. I know this because of 44 years of experience being female in the US, and a degree in psychology, and it's a well-studied phenomenon from which nobody is immune, and yet I am explaining this right now because I know that many people's first reaction to reading that would be "oh, come on, give me a break".

I'm kind of confused by this thread by right now. You created a thread to discuss what are the mansplaining, asking for people's advice on how to deal with friends who are mansplainers, but you already seem to have all the answers in your mind right now.

What's the best way to let someone in this situation know that they are mansplaining? Do you say "Hey, dude, you're mansplaining"? Or "So that's a camera? You don't say? I wasn't sure why I bought it."

Hm...that's tricky. I think, for situation you described in the OP, in the chatroom, saying "Thank you for wanting to help, but I'm not actually looking for advice..." is the most gracious yet direct way to say it.

I wish I had some suggestion for dealing with IRL situation, but I'm pretty shitty at dealing with IRL situations myself so take my advice with a grain of salt. Maybe try agreeing enthusiastically yet curtly with him and then quickly change the subject? For example:

Friend: "You know, the model T-480 lens is the best for capturing those close-up shots!"
You: "Absolutely! The geese are really coming in well this year. I think this might be the year that Betty starts laying eggs."*

* I know nothing about cameras or geese so I just kinda made this conversation up.

I kind of think that pointing out that he is mansplaining might be a key element, though, because if you are unaware of the nature of a certain behavior, you can't do much to change it. So it becomes a question of "do I want to tackle that, running the risk of it turning into an unpleasant, defensive conversation, or do I continue to obey my social conditioning and pleasantly deflect?"

It sounds like you already know what to do in this situation then...

In an example Alty just mentioned, our friend saw the camera equipment in my office and started mansplaining photography, which is an interesting move since it assumed that I don't understand the equipment that I clearly own. I have purchased it and placed it on shelves in my workspace, yet his automatic assumption seemed to be that I do not understand it. Why, then, does he think I own it? For decoration perhaps? It makes little sense; why would anyone go into someone's workspace and assume that they know nothing about their own tools?

The only possible conclusion is that mansplaining is not so much intended for the receiver's benefit, but rather the mansplainer's own self-edification. It is a form of unsolicited vice, and therefore a form of verbal diarrhea.

I think the reason mansplaining is more prevalent in America rather than other countries is because American culture encourages verbal diarrhea. Even if what you're saying has no particular worth, the fact that you're forcing others to listen to you is an act of status.

I really think that what LMNO said about misogyny is extremely key, though. America is definitely more misogynistic than other developed countries, and as a result women are infantilized more here. Men do mansplain to other men, and sometimes women mansplain too, which is a phenomenon worth delving into, but it's not the commonplace, everyday occurrence that men mansplaining to women is.

Yes, I do agree that it's the main factor. I didn't want to come across as denying that misogyny is playing a key role here, I just wanted to also explore other angles of it.