Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Or Kill Me => Topic started by: Cain on April 29, 2008, 01:36:26 pm

Title: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on April 29, 2008, 01:36:26 pm
“Once victim, always victim -- that's the law!”
- Thomas Hardy

“Danger lies in the writer becoming the victim of his own exaggeration, losing the exact notion of sincerity, and in the end coming to despise truth itself as something too cold, too blunt for his purpose -- as, in fact, not good enough for his insistent emotion.”

- Joseph Conrad


The victim mentality is a curious thing. 

Oh, I don't mean, as do the various proto-racist idiots do, talk about legitimate grievances experienced by a group of people.  For example, Jews or blacks in the USA.  There is both legitimate and ongoing discrimination against those groups, for starters.  Furthermore, their victim status is a matter of how other's treat them, it is not a label they generally accept willingly, and furthermore they try to rid themselves of the label as much as possible.

No, I'm interested in people who want to be victims, who identify themselves as such, who wish to be seen as oppressed and living in a world that is out to get them.  And most often, these people have actually experienced very little to actually warrant that status.  In many cases, it seems to be a one-off event that then colours their vision for the rest of their lives.

The most obvious example of this would be Emo 'culture'.  Once upon a time, as I'm sure you are all aware, emo was about music and, to a degree, a certain style of clothing.  However that is long gone and dead, replaced with music by middle-class white suburbanites whining about how bad their life is.  Its so very cliché, yet at the same time almost hilarious.  You may think I'm joking, but some deluded emo kids have seen fit to compare themselves to black slaves, or the persecution homosexuals suffer, and yet at the same time consider themselves part of 'social movement' based entirely on this shared, faked identity.

That's the most obvious example, but I believe this is just trickle down from another source – the body politic.  For quite a while now, the adoption of victimhood status has been a tool, one used by unscrupulous political organizations in order to promote and further their causes, as well as give their members a sense of grievance and anger any anyone not in their 'in-group'.  Hell, it even works on atheists, who you think would be more open to reasoning and trying to understand what makes people operate than most others.  The ethnocentric nature of it is useful for any aspiring leader.

Victimhood is a powerful tool, because it draws a group together and creates for them a collective experience which they interpret reality through.  Its even more powerful in this modern day and age because of the media, and especially the bottom up media that has been invented by the internet, blogging and Youtube in particular.  An individual can pick their media inputs based on their belonging to one social group or another, and if several of those inputs are spreading a victim discourse and memes, then the idea and acceptance of it will spread throughout that particular group. 

What is especially dangerous and worrying, however, is when a victim discourse becomes intertwined with a sense of humiliation.  Three prime examples of this are the three most powerful countries in the world right now, and their nationalist rhetoric.  China believes it has been humiliated by the western powers throughout its modern contact with them, and not without reason.  It has been invaded, had its people addicted to opium by Western dealers backed by huge national armies, had foreign powers support civil wars and has been ignored by the international system at large.  However, that has very little to do with why it is being criticized now, although most Chinese people would not believe that.

Equally, we have Russia.  After the inglorious end to the Cold War, they suffered the chaos of the Yeltsin years, where the government was run by gangsters and thugs of all colours, the assets of the nation were looted, and Russians were left to die in the streets or freeze to death at home – all while Western pundits lauded Boris Yeltsin and took advantage of Russia's weakness to humiliate them in the international sphere.  And now they have a stronger leader, one who evokes their Imperial and Soviet past, they again see him being villainized by the West.  As far as they are concerned, the West wants them weak and humiliated forever.

And finally, we have America.  American popular nationalism has been built very strongly on the events of 9/11, an event stronger than say the Chinese experience, as almost everyone saw the events of that day repeatedly, shared by cable news networks on repeat all day.  America had long believed its superpower status had somehow conferred invincibility upon it, and to be shown up by Arabs wielding box-cutters, who nonetheless inflicted incredible levels of damage on the country, was a humiliation unseen since Clinton's retreat from Somalia.

And the mix of victim and humiliation is a very bad one.  Because one identifies as the victim, yet at the same time, this identity only serves to remind you of what caused one to think of oneself this way, which brings rise to the feeling of humiliation.  Using this kind of victim status as a tool is a very, very dangerous one indeed.  Its like wearing a mail shirt to defend yourself from criticism of your actions, only to find that there are spikes on the inside of the amour.  It does defend, and help explain the action, but at the same time, it serves as a painful reminder, which only drives those who accept it to even more extreme actions to try and reverse that humiliation.

And therein lies the danger.  All the processes are internal, or take place at a vague sociological level where identity and discourse are more tangible than fact or action, yet it is precisely by action that this humiliated victim seeks to redress what they see as those who wronged them.  And should they fail even slightly, they go to ever more extreme and bloody ends in search of a cure they can never find.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on April 29, 2008, 03:14:26 pm
The victim mentality is indeed a curious thing.

It allows us to both deny and accept the bad things that happen in this world, and treat others as both things and persons.

It is a role we play. Yet it is also an identity and a belief system. Those Jews and Blacks, victims of so much persecution, have taken that persecution to heart. Their victim status is not just a matter of how others treat them, but of how they see themselves. It is a matter of self-perception, along with denial that the persecution is over. People who identify themselves as victims, are not wishing to be seen as oppressed and living in a world that is out to get them. They do, however, wish to feel heard and validated. They especially want their feelings to be validated.

Overcoming the victim mentality is often a matter of accepting that the defining event has stopped happening. Americans, with our "never forget" bumper stickers, are still holding on to the grievance of 9/11. We hold onto it like a dog with a chew toy. We have yet to reach the point of accepting that it's over and time to move on with our lives. Perhaps the same can be said of Russia and China.

Victimhood is a rusty tool, at best. If you spend enough time convincing people you are powerless, they will perceive you that way. Hence the continued persecution and victimhood of the Jews and blacks, and also why Feminism failed so mightily. Victimhood may draw people together, and create a collective reality, but it is, by its very nature, a state of fear and distrust. Its bonds are shaky, and easily broken. Any who attempt to break free risk the rejection of the group they've come to rely on and identify with. That said, all it takes is one individual to stand up and speak up, and the rest of the group can become empowered by their example.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on April 29, 2008, 03:23:16 pm
Wow, that was a pretty good analysis, Cain.

I'm pretty sure if you threw in a few citations, you could easily get that published.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 29, 2008, 03:39:49 pm
:mittens:
Interestingly enough, Israel in the last few years (or at least as far back as I can recall) has also taken on a major victim mentality. The vibe I get in Israel is that people think most of the world is out to get the Jews, and always has been. In diaspora I think these vibes take on a more sane, peaceful form. But in Israel these feelings are rooted in indignant anger and outright xenophobia. Rather than trying to shed this mentality, nationalist forces are enforcing it and using it to foster violence and isolationism.
I actually recently translated an excellent and very eloquent article about this, but I don't have the right to put the translation online.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: ShoobyDB on April 30, 2008, 09:40:46 am
This is probably also why people compare scars or want to convince everybody that they had worse parents than you. Maybe we all just want a pity hug.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on April 30, 2008, 12:49:40 pm
Comparing scars is ancient, primitive human behavior and is probably based on basic second-circuit male pecking-order politics more than anything else.
But trying to convince everyone you had it worse than they did, has imho more to do with Christian ethics than with wanting a hug. Christianity seems (in my very limited understanding thereof) to claim that suffering=virtue, and that if you've had a good life you're probably a sinner. I get the feeling this silly dichotomy is the kind of thing that saturates Western culture so deeply that it no longer even depends on religion for its continued existence.
A similar but distinct undercurrent exists in Jewish culture, where it has less to do with religion and more to do with history. There's a classic Jewish Mother joke that goes, four Jewish mothers are sitting in a restaurant, having a gourmet meal. A waiter comes by and asks, "is anything okay?". It's practically a tradition to whine and complain about things, to the point that it's become ironic. I think this is related to European Yiddish culture. The Jews of Europe suffered a lot in the dark and middle ages, when this culture emerged. The Yiddish language is so full of humor it might burst. When I think of a typical conversation between two Old World orthodox Jewish men, I see them complaining about everything and anything, in good humor. This cultural undercurrent is a natural host for the Christian suffering=virtue meme. Imagine, you make an art of complaining, and then come in contact with people who seem to believe the more you suffer, the better a person you are. Why wouldn't you play along? The combination can make you look good.
My guess is the personal victim mentality, of the holier-than-thou variety, is a distinctly Western element and would take on a very different form in Eurasian, Asian, and native cultures, if it is present in them at all.

~Verb,
starting to think Cultural Sciences is the BA he wants
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 30, 2008, 06:24:08 pm
I tend to think that people who play the "eternal victim" role are essentially just attention-whoring, and they can't come up with anything positive or interesting to say or do so they whine about how terrible their life is/was.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Micro Ice on May 01, 2008, 12:07:10 am
I tend to think that people who play the "eternal victim" role are essentially just attention-whoring, and they can't come up with anything positive or interesting to say or do so they whine about how terrible their life is/was.

That really reminded me of "that guy" in our circle of friends. You all know who that guy is. They always start a conversation with a complaint. Be it major or minor, it is something bad that has happened, without fail. Ever the victim. Yet while you realise that this is attention seeking there is this little part, deep down that feels a little sorry. I myself fully believe that is it just sympathy that victims want and by portraying themselves as so they get it.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Golden Applesauce on May 01, 2008, 12:39:36 am
There's two different types of victims.  At the personal level, it's the attention-seeking you describe.  But when applied to groups it becomes a rallying cry for the in-group.  You can glorify being the underdog, and having to fight a long uphill battle against The System oppressing you.  At the same time you can blame some or all of your problems on the out-group.

I think a good example of this would be some elements of the Christian fundamentalists.  Y'know, the ones the government is oppressing by not allowing them to organize prayer in schools and academia is oppressing by alternately suppressing and ignoring creation science, and the media is oppressing by essentially declaring a war on values and trying to flood their homes with sex and depravity, and Wal-Mart is oppressing by saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, and the gays are oppressing by indoctrinating their schoolchildren with the Day of Silence.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on May 01, 2008, 12:23:52 pm
four Jewish mothers are sitting in a restaurant, having a gourmet meal. A waiter comes by and asks, "is anything okay?"

 :lol:

Jews have the awesomest humor ever :D
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 01, 2008, 01:28:07 pm
There's two different types of victims.  At the personal level, it's the attention-seeking you describe.  But when applied to groups it becomes a rallying cry for the in-group.  You can glorify being the underdog, and having to fight a long uphill battle against The System oppressing you.  At the same time you can blame some or all of your problems on the out-group.

I think a good example of this would be some elements of the Christian fundamentalists.  Y'know, the ones the government is oppressing by not allowing them to organize prayer in schools and academia is oppressing by alternately suppressing and ignoring creation science, and the media is oppressing by essentially declaring a war on values and trying to flood their homes with sex and depravity, and Wal-Mart is oppressing by saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, and the gays are oppressing by indoctrinating their schoolchildren with the Day of Silence.

The second one is the problem, to me.  Attention whores are easily dealt with - you ignore them.  They use their status as a victim as a tool to achieve a particular goal and if it continues to fail, they will switch tactics.

Its the group identification, ethnocentrism that you describe that is the worrying one.  "We are all in this together and the world OUT THERE is trying to get at us".  The group dynamics of such thinking tend to express themselves dangerously.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Hoopla on May 01, 2008, 01:50:27 pm
:mittens:
Interestingly enough, Israel in the last few years (or at least as far back as I can recall) has also taken on a major victim mentality. The vibe I get in Israel is that people think most of the world is out to get the Jews, and always has been. In diaspora I think these vibes take on a more sane, peaceful form. But in Israel these feelings are rooted in indignant anger and outright xenophobia. Rather than trying to shed this mentality, nationalist forces are enforcing it and using it to foster violence and isolationism.
I actually recently translated an excellent and very eloquent article about this, but I don't have the right to put the translation online.

The Jews really HAVE been a scapegoat for the world for a long time, though... to some degree their paranoia is justified, I think.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 01, 2008, 01:52:23 pm
Yeah, on that point I tend to think they may have a certain level of justification...same with blacks in America when it comes to the doings of the government etc

Of course, they can take it too far, but then so does everyone else.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Hoopla on May 01, 2008, 01:58:34 pm
YUP.

This is Planet Mudball: enjoy the ride.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: NeophyteNihilist on May 01, 2008, 04:14:34 pm
I think a good example of this would be some elements of the Christian fundamentalists.  Y'know, the ones the government is oppressing by not allowing them to organize prayer in schools and academia is oppressing by alternately suppressing and ignoring creation science, and the media is oppressing by essentially declaring a war on values and trying to flood their homes with sex and depravity, and Wal-Mart is oppressing by saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, and the gays are oppressing by indoctrinating their schoolchildren with the Day of Silence.
(http://intellectualize.org/images/help_oppressed.gif)
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 01, 2008, 06:07:34 pm
The Jews really HAVE been a scapegoat for the world for a long time, though... to some degree their paranoia is justified, I think.
Of course. But the situation there has become absurd. Every time I hear Israelis talking about the votes in the Eurovision song competition, every country's vote regarding Israel is interpreted as a measure of their antisemitism and Holocaust-guilt. It's not paranoia, it's plain stupid.
I wouldn't dignify it by calling it a conspiracy theory. It's just stupidity mixed with crazy juice, and some healthy paranoia.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 01, 2008, 06:11:04 pm
Lord Levy suffers from that too.

He's convinced the reason he has been fingered out in the Cash-for-Honours proble over here is because he's Jewish.  It has nothing to do with his nickname of Lord Cashpoint or his role as Tony Blair's chief fundraiser at all, and anyone who says so is just enabling his anti-Semetic haters.

:facepalm:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on May 01, 2008, 06:20:10 pm
I think a good example of this would be some elements of the Christian fundamentalists.  Y'know, the ones the government is oppressing by not allowing them to organize prayer in schools and academia is oppressing by alternately suppressing and ignoring creation science, and the media is oppressing by essentially declaring a war on values and trying to flood their homes with sex and depravity, and Wal-Mart is oppressing by saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, and the gays are oppressing by indoctrinating their schoolchildren with the Day of Silence.
(http://intellectualize.org/images/help_oppressed.gif)

:lulz:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Hoopla on May 01, 2008, 07:21:07 pm
The Jews really HAVE been a scapegoat for the world for a long time, though... to some degree their paranoia is justified, I think.
Of course. But the situation there has become absurd. Every time I hear Israelis talking about the votes in the Eurovision song competition, every country's vote regarding Israel is interpreted as a measure of their antisemitism and Holocaust-guilt. It's not paranoia, it's plain stupid.
I wouldn't dignify it by calling it a conspiracy theory. It's just stupidity mixed with crazy juice, and some healthy paranoia.

When was the last time you were in mainland Europe?  When I was there last, it wasn't that far off the mark.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 01, 2008, 09:35:34 pm
I live in Germany. :D
It's not that there's no truth in the suspicion that some people hate Jews and some people feel guilty for the Holocaust... Of course it's true. But in Israel I always get the feeling people are unduly obsessed with it and let their opinion swing far too easily according to diplomacy... Israelis tend to think Americans love Jews, because the US is a strategic ally. In that article I translated, the guy mentions how France and England used to be Israel's big allies, before the US took their place... If you ask Israelis today what they think about France, the first thing that comes to mind is anti-Semitism. Sure, anti-Semitism exists in France...especially amongst the Muslim minority, which is just angry enough to go vandalize Jewish sites...of which there are a ton in France because of the huge Jewish community there... Which actually lives quite well.
So yeah, this paranoia isn't completely unfounded, but it sure as hell isn't realistic or reasonable.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Hoopla on May 01, 2008, 11:33:42 pm
Gotcha.  I understand now.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Dido on May 02, 2008, 01:37:01 pm
Comparing scars is ancient, primitive human behavior and is probably based on basic second-circuit male pecking-order politics more than anything else.
But trying to convince everyone you had it worse than they did, has imho more to do with Christian ethics than with wanting a hug. Christianity seems (in my very limited understanding thereof) to claim that suffering=virtue, and that if you've had a good life you're probably a sinner. I get the feeling this silly dichotomy is the kind of thing that saturates Western culture so deeply that it no longer even depends on religion for its continued existence.
A similar but distinct undercurrent exists in Jewish culture, where it has less to do with religion and more to do with history. There's a classic Jewish Mother joke that goes, four Jewish mothers are sitting in a restaurant, having a gourmet meal. A waiter comes by and asks, "is anything okay?". It's practically a tradition to whine and complain about things, to the point that it's become ironic. I think this is related to European Yiddish culture. The Jews of Europe suffered a lot in the dark and middle ages, when this culture emerged. The Yiddish language is so full of humor it might burst. When I think of a typical conversation between two Old World orthodox Jewish men, I see them complaining about everything and anything, in good humor. This cultural undercurrent is a natural host for the Christian suffering=virtue meme. Imagine, you make an art of complaining, and then come in contact with people who seem to believe the more you suffer, the better a person you are. Why wouldn't you play along? The combination can make you look good.
My guess is the personal victim mentality, of the holier-than-thou variety, is a distinctly Western element and would take on a very different form in Eurasian, Asian, and native cultures, if it is present in them at all.

~Verb,
starting to think Cultural Sciences is the BA he wants

If you have very little practical help to offer it is ingenious to convince everybody that their problems are just and adequate suffering and that endurance makes them eligible for metaphysical rewards. You do not have to do anything further, as problems are part of the package called human life. At first sight it seems strange that anybody would prefer that worldview to a "behave and the gods will do the same" but once a mode of thinking becomes part of a culture it takes a life of its own, even without the cognitive construct that served as the "embedding agent".

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on May 02, 2008, 03:06:35 pm
Let's be honest, other races and religions have fucked over the Jews for hundreds (eh thousands) of years.  How many cultures can take their religious training and cultural education back to BC and be truly accurate?  It is almost as if they are raised as victims.  IMO they have earned the right to bitch and moan.   Hitler gave them that right.

My issue is with those who "play" the victim role so well they actually believe they are a victim of something.  These pseudo-victims, in comparison to true victims, are ready, willing and always on the poor pitiful feel sorry for me tour.

True victims of things tend to be very quiet.  They live in fear and keep things low key.  You see this all the time in the women who have been victims of domestic violence.  The last thing they want to do is bring attention to themselves.  Keep quiet, behave, stay out of the way.  It's safe that way and you might live another day! 
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 02, 2008, 10:44:08 pm
That's true, and what's interesting is that I have known a couple of women who claimed loudly and repeatedly to have been victims of domestic abuse, yet when I saw them interacting with their (allegedly abusive) partners, they were extremely, aggressively verbally and emotionally abusive, and later when I got the story of the "abuse" incident from one of the men (who is physically about my size, although quite a bit stronger, and his wife is significantly taller, though probably not as strong) the truth was that she was being verbally abusive, he tried to go outside, she followed him, threw a jar at his head, grabbed him, and started hitting him in the face... at which point he snapped, and pushed her down and kicked her. The neighbor called the cops and they questioned each of them privately, and since Oregon law is that if there's a domestic violence call SOMEONE has to go to jail even if no charges are pressed, they were going to take her, but he was afraid it would be too "damaging to her spirit" if she went to jail so he asked the police to take him. They told him that by rights, they should take her, but gave in and took him.

That's the incident she refers to as "abuse". Poor, poor thing.

She STILL browbeats and abuses him, I can't stand the way she talks to him. I understand she still hits him whenever she feels like it, too. Meanwhile, he's the sweetest, quietest creature, will never tell her no to ANYTHING, and feels - get this - GUILTY when she gets upset with him. She leaves him every once in a while when she's "fed up with his bullshit", sleeps around, and tells him that if he divorces her she'll get the house because there's a "history of domestic violence".

It's seriously fucked up.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 05, 2008, 07:09:45 pm
Let's be honest, other races and religions have fucked over the Jews for hundreds (eh thousands) of years.  How many cultures can take their religious training and cultural education back to BC and be truly accurate?  It is almost as if they are raised as victims.  IMO they have earned the right to bitch and moan.   Hitler gave them that right.

My issue is with those who "play" the victim role so well they actually believe they are a victim of something.  These pseudo-victims, in comparison to true victims, are ready, willing and always on the poor pitiful feel sorry for me tour.

True victims of things tend to be very quiet.  They live in fear and keep things low key.  You see this all the time in the women who have been victims of domestic violence.  The last thing they want to do is bring attention to themselves.  Keep quiet, behave, stay out of the way.  It's safe that way and you might live another day! 

Erm....  Am I the only one who noticed that your first point is invalidated by your second point?  I think you realized this, but were just afraid to come out and say it.

The only reason Jews still have a coherent religion and culture is because early in their history they adopted the belief that written words had magical properties and for the most part kept their book the same over the centuries.  They also benefited from the fact that their religious culture wasn't dependant upon an established state.  This allowed it to thrive during changes in real estate that other relgions couldn't match.

As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.

More to the point, if they truly were being victimized they would keep their filthy mouths shut.  Since they don't it is painfully obvious that they are no longer being oppressed, abused, persecuted, or bulldozed into mass graves.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on May 05, 2008, 07:10:47 pm
Hey now... what did the Jews ever do you you?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 05, 2008, 07:44:48 pm
Hey now... what did the Jews ever do you you?

FUCK YOU!  MY MOM DIED FROM JEWS!
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Hoopla on May 05, 2008, 08:12:14 pm
Hey now... what did the Jews ever do you you?

Jackie Mason.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Adios on May 05, 2008, 08:43:58 pm
I was a battered husband for 20 years. Victim mentality my ass, I WAS FUCKING STUPID.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Dido on May 05, 2008, 09:57:23 pm

That's the most obvious example, but I believe this is just trickle down from another source – the body politic.  For quite a while now, the adoption of victimhood status has been a tool, one used by unscrupulous political organizations in order to promote and further their causes, as well as give their members a sense of grievance and anger any anyone not in their 'in-group'.  Hell, it even works on atheists, who you think would be more open to reasoning and trying to understand what makes people operate than most others.  The ethnocentric nature of it is useful for any aspiring leader.

Victimhood is a powerful tool, because it draws a group together and creates for them a collective experience which they interpret reality through. (...)

What is especially dangerous and worrying, however, is when a victim discourse becomes intertwined with a sense of humiliation.  Three prime examples of this are the three most powerful countries in the world right now, and their nationalist rhetoric. (...)

Victim mentality seems to become a part of a nation's collective rhetoric when a nation cannot convince
itself that it is being liked by the others. Both Russia and China are veterans in receiving extremely one-sided coverage. Obviously there is justified criticism in both cases but most people have long since been conditioned to react negatively when these two countries are mentioned. And there must have been a time when the USA had a predominantly positive image in the world but I cannot recall a period without simpering anti-Americanism (Again leaving aside the question of whether it was reasonable or not.)

In politics the victim card makes it possible to "milk" such a situation. You turn the "They seem to dislike us" into "they all hate us" ad the all-important "they have always hated us" and cite a suitable national tragedy as proof (if you do not have a recent one there is always history). If you succeed every further criticism from outside is another attack by people who never liked you anyway.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 05, 2008, 10:22:34 pm
As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.

More to the point, if they truly were being victimized they would keep their filthy mouths shut.  Since they don't it is painfully obvious that they are no longer being oppressed, abused, persecuted, or bulldozed into mass graves.
Fuck you. Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre its enemies like the Israelites did the Canaanites.
Comparing that with the Holocaust isn't bigoted, it's just retarded. What you're saying is that me and my family shouldn't complain about my grandma's little brother being hauled off to Poland from his home in Germany and gassed to death, because a few hundred generations ago people with a precursor to my sister's religion and possibly some genetic material of ours conquered and massacred another people (or whatever they did.) Even if that weren't simply the thing you do after conquering someone back then - which I think it was - the comparison is stupid.
But you're just trolling me, right?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Dido on May 05, 2008, 10:43:15 pm
Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre a part of its population and then declare it its enemy like the Israelites did the Canaanites.


Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 06, 2008, 12:12:05 am


As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.


Oh, look.  Another lefty coming along to save us from the "ZIONAZIS".

That's even more boring than the right wingnuts coming along to save us from the "AY-RABS".

 :kingmeh:

TGRR,
Wonders where all the cabbage came from.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Reginald Ret on May 06, 2008, 11:59:41 am
Fuck you. Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre its enemies like the Israelites did the Canaanites.
Comparing that with the Holocaust isn't bigoted, it's just retarded. What you're saying is that me and my family shouldn't complain about my grandma's little brother being hauled off to Poland from his home in Germany and gassed to death, because a few hundred generations ago people with a precursor to my sister's religion and possibly some genetic material of ours conquered and massacred another people (or whatever they did.) Even if that weren't simply the thing you do after conquering someone back then - which I think it was - the comparison is stupid.
But you're just trolling me, right?

how is that comparison retarded? because hitler was more efficient? or is it worse too massacre when you only kill a specific group of people?

oh noez! teh mass-murdering raping and pillaging soldiers are also racist!

Fuck you. War is always horrible.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 06, 2008, 04:03:33 pm
I would think that the Holocaust was carried out in living memory would be reason enough why it takes precedence over ancient acts of genocide.

Furthermore, the Holocaust was not a military program designed to defeat an enemy, if anything it was a drain on military resources against a segment of the population in both the 'homeland' and conquered territories, based on a conspiracy theory.  There is absolutely no concievable military gain from such an internally directed and selective program of genocide whatsoever.  Following that logic, there would be sound military reasons for rounding up Poles, Czechs, Russians, the Frenc and British en masse.

If anything, the holocaust is reminiscent of the pogroms before the Crusades.  A bizzare and murderous display of 'purity' and eliminationism, to root out weak elements who were like a virus in the nation, according to the 'logic' of such actions.  And, strangely enough, this was justified on the old blood libel theory....the idea that Christians were the victims of Jewish perfidy.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Reginald Ret on May 06, 2008, 05:07:55 pm
Furthermore, the Holocaust was not a military program designed to defeat an enemy,

yes it was, just because the enemy is harmless the tactics to get rid of them don't change.


anyway more to the point:
you can bitch as much as you want about being a victim but please don't let it define you 'cause thats bad for you and your surroundings(and thats us you meanie!)



Regret
all for free speech but does not want people to talk themselves into a worse worldview.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 06, 2008, 07:27:40 pm
Holocaust =/= War
How much have you studied the holocaust? It started by making it illegal for the "enemy" to hold positions in government and academia. Along with that came laws against "fraternizing with the enemy". The tactics were totally different from those of war, from the start of persecution, through the Final Solution, and until V-E Day.
But more to the point, what the Israelites did to the Canaanites has absolutely zilch to do with the holocaust. If the generations slaughtered in the holocaust were somehow directly responsible for hurting someone in a massive scale there would be some basis for such a comparison, perhaps. Maybe if the generations directly preceding my great grandparents had done something. Maybe. But the precursor ethnic group, 3 thousand years back (if not more)? Gimme a fucking break.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 06, 2008, 07:31:11 pm
Jesus, Canaanites?

Someone's doing some stretching here.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Vene on May 06, 2008, 07:59:01 pm
Furthermore, the Holocaust was not a military program designed to defeat an enemy,

yes it was, just because the enemy is harmless the tactics to get rid of them don't change.


anyway more to the point:
you can bitch as much as you want about being a victim but please don't let it define you 'cause thats bad for you and your surroundings(and thats us you meanie!)


Regret
all for free speech but does not want people to talk themselves into a worse worldview.
:retard:

Killing civilians is not the same as killing soldiers.  It's a massacre.  If you can't see the difference you are a fucking moron.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 06, 2008, 08:08:26 pm
Furthermore, the Holocaust was not a military program designed to defeat an enemy,

yes it was, just because the enemy is harmless the tactics to get rid of them don't change.


anyway more to the point:
you can bitch as much as you want about being a victim but please don't let it define you 'cause thats bad for you and your surroundings(and thats us you meanie!)


Regret
all for free speech but does not want people to talk themselves into a worse worldview.
:retard:

Killing civilians is not the same as killing soldiers.  It's a massacre.  If you can't see the difference you are a fucking moron.

That's right, killing citizens is totally different than killing soldiers, because the soldiers are volunteers and chose to go into combat.... well, except for the conscripts and the draftees, but in WWII lots of those Germans CHOSE to fight. They had the option of vacationing in Dauchu instead.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on May 06, 2008, 08:15:18 pm
Historical question:  Did Hitler "decalre war" on the Jews, or did he just decide to kill them all?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 06, 2008, 08:22:47 pm
Killing civilians is not the same as killing soldiers.  It's a massacre.  If you can't see the difference you are a fucking moron.

Er...last time I checked, whenever large numbers of people get killed, it's a massacre.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on May 06, 2008, 08:26:50 pm
Except when it's Manifest Destiny, of course.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 06, 2008, 09:09:08 pm
Historical question:  Did Hitler "decalre war" on the Jews, or did he just decide to kill them all?
Not properly. He made it clear that the Jews (and other groups, but primarily the Jews) were his enemy in the early thirties, but one of the main reasons the Jewry of Germany was so wholly wiped out was that the Jews here simply didn't believe it would ever get that bad, until it was too late. In my grandma's family, for instance, one brother and one sister of hers had left Germany before the war (iirc) but the rest of them simply stayed. I think she had several other siblings. During the war she alone managed to get away, training in Holland in preparation for going to Israel to help build up kibbutzes and whatnot. But then the Nazis took over Holland and she was sent around from camp to camp for a while. She survived because an uncle or something in Palestine requested she be brought there as part of a prisoner exchange between the Brits and the Krauts. There were Krauts of Templer origins stuck in Palestine under British control, and plenty of relatives of Palestine Jews stuck in the Third Reich. But after the one train in which my grandma was taken directly from Bergen-Belsen to Haifa (or was it Jaffa?) the Brits called off the exchange program.
Point is, most of her family was wiped out because even though the Nazis revoked their citizenship and seized their businesses, they were certain the whole thing would blow over.
I don't know of any "declaration of war" as such, but I do think Hitler made it clear Jews were amongst his enemies, early on. It was apparently not clear to most German Jews how far he would go.

-Verb,
wondering if he actually just wrote all that just to tell his grandma's story, or if there was a point.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 06, 2008, 09:11:03 pm
Except when it's Manifest Destiny, of course.

My father honestly justifies the Indian massacres with "Well, it paved the way for the greatest nation ever."

And another piece falls into place.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Vene on May 06, 2008, 09:14:07 pm
Killing civilians is not the same as killing soldiers.  It's a massacre.  If you can't see the difference you are a fucking moron.

Er...last time I checked, whenever large numbers of people get killed, it's a massacre.
True, but at least the soldiers knew what they were getting into.

And, honestly, I'm a bit shocked that anybody needs to say that the victims of the holocaust were legitimate victims.  What's next, do I have to say that more people than just the Jews were killed?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 06, 2008, 09:19:06 pm
Those goddamned gypsies must have raped at least twenty women before the holocaust. They shouldn't bitch and moan about being rounded up an murdered, after that.
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 06, 2008, 09:24:05 pm
Killing civilians is not the same as killing soldiers.  It's a massacre.  If you can't see the difference you are a fucking moron.

Er...last time I checked, whenever large numbers of people get killed, it's a massacre.
True, but at least the soldiers knew what they were getting into.

And, honestly, I'm a bit shocked that anybody needs to say that the victims of the holocaust were legitimate victims.  What's next, do I have to say that more people than just the Jews were killed?

I'm not so sure any soldier really knows what they're getting into.

And I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that the victims of the holocaust were legitimate victims. I think the argument is over whether or not they are still being victimized, and imho, so long as people say things like they need to keep their filthy mouths shut...they are.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on May 06, 2008, 09:26:59 pm
Historical question:  Did Hitler "decalre war" on the Jews, or did he just decide to kill them all?
Not properly. He made it clear that the Jews (and other groups, but primarily the Jews) were his enemy in the early thirties, but one of the main reasons the Jewry of Germany was so wholly wiped out was that the Jews here simply didn't believe it would ever get that bad, until it was too late. In my grandma's family, for instance, one brother and one sister of hers had left Germany before the war (iirc) but the rest of them simply stayed. I think she had several other siblings. During the war she alone managed to get away, training in Holland in preparation for going to Israel to help build up kibbutzes and whatnot. But then the Nazis took over Holland and she was sent around from camp to camp for a while. She survived because an uncle or something in Palestine requested she be brought there as part of a prisoner exchange between the Brits and the Krauts. There were Krauts of Templer origins stuck in Palestine under British control, and plenty of relatives of Palestine Jews stuck in the Third Reich. But after the one train in which my grandma was taken directly from Bergen-Belsen to Haifa (or was it Jaffa?) the Brits called off the exchange program.
Point is, most of her family was wiped out because even though the Nazis revoked their citizenship and seized their businesses, they were certain the whole thing would blow over.
I don't know of any "declaration of war" as such, but I do think Hitler made it clear Jews were amongst his enemies, early on. It was apparently not clear to most German Jews how far he would go.

-Verb,
wondering if he actually just wrote all that just to tell his grandma's story, or if there was a point.

... and this is one of the reasons why i commented a few times on the ZOMG J00000000s jokes on this forum.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 06, 2008, 09:38:31 pm
Furthermore, the Holocaust was not a military program designed to defeat an enemy,

yes it was, just because the enemy is harmless the tactics to get rid of them don't change.

If someone is harmless, then how are they an enemy?

UUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Golden Applesauce on May 06, 2008, 09:42:04 pm
An enemy is just a stranger you're afraid of.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 07, 2008, 05:19:54 am

Erm....  Am I the only one who noticed that your first point is invalidated by your second point?  I think you realized this, but were just afraid to come out and say it.

The only reason Jews still have a coherent religion and culture is because early in their history they adopted the belief that written words had magical properties and for the most part kept their book the same over the centuries.  They also benefited from the fact that their religious culture wasn't dependant upon an established state.  This allowed it to thrive during changes in real estate that other relgions couldn't match.

As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.


Dude, sweet, by your logic Native Americans would be completely justified in rounding up and exterminating EVERY white person in the Americas, and you paleface fucks wouldn't have any right to piss and moan about it!

Also, have you considered joining www.stormfront.org? That seems more your speed.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 07, 2008, 05:20:56 am
An enemy is just a stranger you're afraid of.

NO, SOMETIMES HE IS SOMEONE YOU REALLY KNOW AND REALLY HATE.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 07, 2008, 05:23:51 am
Except when it's Manifest Destiny, of course.

My father honestly justifies the Indian massacres with "Well, it paved the way for the greatest nation ever."

And another piece falls into place.

THAT EXPLAINS THE FAIL.

THE FOUNDATION IS ROTTEN WITH CORPSES.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on May 07, 2008, 03:09:30 pm
Killing civilians is not the same as killing soldiers.  It's a massacre.  If you can't see the difference you are a fucking moron.

Er...last time I checked, whenever large numbers of people get killed, it's a massacre.
True, but at least the soldiers knew what they were getting into.

And, honestly, I'm a bit shocked that anybody needs to say that the victims of the holocaust were legitimate victims.  What's next, do I have to say that more people than just the Jews were killed?


I guess the question is who do you consider the victims to be: The people who died in the holocaust, or their decendents 60 years after the fact?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Vene on May 07, 2008, 06:05:51 pm
Killing civilians is not the same as killing soldiers.  It's a massacre.  If you can't see the difference you are a fucking moron.

Er...last time I checked, whenever large numbers of people get killed, it's a massacre.
True, but at least the soldiers knew what they were getting into.

And, honestly, I'm a bit shocked that anybody needs to say that the victims of the holocaust were legitimate victims.  What's next, do I have to say that more people than just the Jews were killed?


I guess the question is who do you consider the victims to be: The people who died in the holocaust, or their decendents 60 years after the fact?
I would say that the people who died (or even lived) through the holocaust and concentration camps were legitimate victims.  As for the descendants, that would be going outside my knowledge and it's something that I can even come close to drawing a conclusion about.  I know that Israel has pretty much been coddled by the west, but I don't know how much antisemitism prevailed in Europe and America afterwards.  As for the other groups targeted (disabled, homosexuals, ethic minorities) I know that at least homosexuals have been discriminated against here, and from what little I know about race-relations in Europe, gypsies still aren't liked.  Right now, my thought process is going in circles, but good post.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 07, 2008, 07:56:22 pm
The Jews weren't alone in the holocaust, Jehovah's Wittnesses were killed by the thousands as well... in fact, in many countries JW's have been seriously persecuted and killed even as recently as 10 years ago (I haven't kept up with their martyrs since I left). Yet, most JW's don't play the victim card... they just accept that people may not like them and their choice of religion, and they're willing to take the consequences.

I once knew a man who was tarred, feathered and thrown of a bridge, left for dead. He wasn't a Jew in 1940's Germany, he was a JW in 1940's US.

It makes me laugh to see someone scream about persecution because some jerkoff in a KKK outfit makes a speech. I had dogs loosed on me and still carry scars on my face, my pregnant Mom was shoved off of a porch and threatened with corn cutters... I've been shot at, I've had friends that were actually shot. I've been spit on several times and once even had shit thrown at me... and that was over the past 20 years.

So yeah, bad shit happened to people during war time. Bad shit happened to the Jews, the JW's and the homosexuals in Germany, bad things happened to the Native Americans during, well, the whole foundation of the United States. Bad shit happens, its done by most nations and done to minorities wherever they exist. It's inter-tribal Us vs Them and its been going on since even before the Jews committed some of the earliest recorded instances of total genocide (and then proudly stick it in their history... at least we Americans have the decency to hide the facts from our kids). People who still whine about being victims, when it was really their grandparents or great grandparents that were persecuted seem like little emo whiners to me.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 07, 2008, 08:33:16 pm
As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.

More to the point, if they truly were being victimized they would keep their filthy mouths shut.  Since they don't it is painfully obvious that they are no longer being oppressed, abused, persecuted, or bulldozed into mass graves.
Fuck you. Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre its enemies[citation needed] like the Israelites did the Canaanites.
Comparing that with the Holocaust isn't bigoted, it's just retarded. What you're saying is that me and my family shouldn't complain about my grandma's little brother being hauled off to Poland from his home in Germany and gassed to death, because a few hundred generations ago people with a precursor to my sister's religion and possibly some genetic material of ours conquered and massacred another people (or whatever they did.) Even if that weren't simply the thing you do after conquering someone back then - which I think it was - the comparison is stupid.
But you're just trolling me, right?

*sigh*  No, I wasn't trolling you.  However, I am reconsidering since I find your selective myopia highly amusing.

Excuse me, shitneck, but what part of "genocide" do you not fucking understand?  Are you saying it's okay because "everybody" did it?  If it's okay for the Powers That Be to carry out holocausts, then what the fuck are you complaining about?  "Everybody does it".  Just because it hadn't been done in...  I dunno, ten or twenty years, doesn't mean it isn't still a perfectly valid and legal government program.

Idiot.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Golden Applesauce on May 07, 2008, 08:52:38 pm
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 07, 2008, 08:55:31 pm
As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.

More to the point, if they truly were being victimized they would keep their filthy mouths shut.  Since they don't it is painfully obvious that they are no longer being oppressed, abused, persecuted, or bulldozed into mass graves.
Fuck you. Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre its enemies[citation needed] like the Israelites did the Canaanites.
Comparing that with the Holocaust isn't bigoted, it's just retarded. What you're saying is that me and my family shouldn't complain about my grandma's little brother being hauled off to Poland from his home in Germany and gassed to death, because a few hundred generations ago people with a precursor to my sister's religion and possibly some genetic material of ours conquered and massacred another people (or whatever they did.) Even if that weren't simply the thing you do after conquering someone back then - which I think it was - the comparison is stupid.
But you're just trolling me, right?

*sigh*  No, I wasn't trolling you.  However, I am reconsidering since I find your selective myopia highly amusing.

Excuse me, shitneck, but what part of "genocide" do you not fucking understand?  Are you saying it's okay because "everybody" did it?  If it's okay for the Powers That Be to carry out holocausts, then what the fuck are you complaining about?  "Everybody does it".  Just because it hadn't been done in...  I dunno, ten or twenty years, doesn't mean it isn't still a perfectly valid and legal government program.

Idiot.

10 or 20? Nah, its just that no one in the First World has pulled that shit for the past 20 years... go ask the Tutsi what they think about genocide well, those lucky enough not to be one of the 800,000 that died in 1994.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 07, 2008, 09:17:03 pm
10 or 20? Nah, its just that no one in the First World has pulled that shit for the past 20 years... go ask the Tutsi what they think about genocide well, those lucky enough not to be one of the 800,000 that died in 1994.

Happens all the time.  Rwanda.  Nigeria. Sierra Leone.  Liberia.  Darfur.... Iraq.

First World, Third World...  people are people last I checked.
Humans just do this shit to one another all the time.
Not to sound too 23PINEALOLZOMG or anything, but please refer to the Sermon on Ethics and Love.

Also, the "10 or 20" or whatever was an oblique reference to the Armenian genocide in Turkey starting in 1915.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 07, 2008, 09:26:53 pm
10 or 20? Nah, its just that no one in the First World has pulled that shit for the past 20 years... go ask the Tutsi what they think about genocide well, those lucky enough not to be one of the 800,000 that died in 1994.

Happens all the time.  Rwanda.  Nigeria. Sierra Leone.  Liberia.  Darfur.... Iraq.

First World, Third World...  people are people last I checked.
Humans just do this shit to one another all the time.
Not to sound too 23PINEALOLZOMG or anything, but please refer to the Sermon on Ethics and Love.

Also, the "10 or 20" or whatever was an oblique reference to the Armenian genocide in Turkey starting in 1915.

TROOF! Rwanda was just the only one that I remembered any stats or dates on.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 07, 2008, 11:09:19 pm
Okay, I reread your original post now Muffled and I may have overreacted before... The main thing that pissed me off is the retardation of trying to connect between what the Israelites did and what their descendants, hundreds of generations later, suffered.
I wrote two longer texts for this post but they're both irrelevant and kinda whiny. Genocide is horrible, people who witness it, or whose relatives were victims, have some touchy spots. Murder traumatizes a family. Genocide traumatizes a nation. Whether I like it or not, there are cultural entities that can more or less accurately be called "nations". Whatever the theoretical connection between the two, the genocide committed by one nation and that enacted upon another thousands of years later, have nothing to do with each other.
That's all.
I'm getting out of this argument because I'm not sure anymore what I'm arguing with you about.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 07, 2008, 11:35:14 pm
Okay, I reread your original post now Muffled and I may have overreacted before... The main thing that pissed me off is the retardation of trying to connect between what the Israelites did and what their descendants, hundreds of generations later, suffered.
I wrote two longer texts for this post but they're both irrelevant and kinda whiny. Genocide is horrible, people who witness it, or whose relatives were victims, have some touchy spots. Murder traumatizes a family. Genocide traumatizes a nation. Whether I like it or not, there are cultural entities that can more or less accurately be called "nations". Whatever the theoretical connection between the two, the genocide committed by one nation and that enacted upon another thousands of years later, have nothing to do with each other.
That's all.
I'm getting out of this argument because I'm not sure anymore what I'm arguing with you about.

Is that retardation, Verb, or the truth?

Is it really so difficult to believe that the Israelites had a hand in their own suffering? I'm not talking about blame. Rather, it's the concept of "co-creation", where no one is really to blame because both parties contributed to the horrible thing that happened. I mean, if you think about it, like you said, murder traumatizes a family. Genocide traumatizes a nation. If the trauma of a murder can last at least 2 or 3 generations (which it does), then wouldn't genocide traumatize a nation for a proportional amount of time? Like 2 or 3 thousand years?


That's the funny thing about this victim mentality question...people don't ever want to blame the victim, because "oh no! no one ever deserves such horrible things". And they don't, but not holding the victim accountable for whatever small part they played (and/or the way they choose to live after the event) is what perpetuates this victim mentality. Some people are more than willing to take advantage of others' pity.

 
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Golden Applesauce on May 08, 2008, 12:28:29 am
What perpetuates the victim mentality is the conception that by claiming victim status, one is entitled and/or special.  People need to feel good about themselves, and claiming the identity of the suffering hero is one such way to do that.  That, and some hairless monkeys for whatever reason have this notion of a cosmic balance; when it becomes obvious that no such balance exists they take it upon themselves to fix it, trying to make up for horrible things that happen to decent people.  (or that they should)

As for victims and blame, by definition the word 'victim' denotes someone who isn't blameworthy.  I don't see what benefits 'holding the victim accountable' would bring ... I suppose it would be useful to see what (if anything) could have been done by the victim so that future potential victims could avoid it.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 01:41:34 am
What perpetuates the victim mentality is the conception that by claiming victim status, one is entitled and/or special.  People need to feel good about themselves, and claiming the identity of the suffering hero is one such way to do that.  That, and some hairless monkeys for whatever reason have this notion of a cosmic balance; when it becomes obvious that no such balance exists they take it upon themselves to fix it, trying to make up for horrible things that happen to decent people.  (or that they should)

As for victims and blame, by definition the word 'victim' denotes someone who isn't blameworthy.  I don't see what benefits 'holding the victim accountable' would bring ... I suppose it would be useful to see what (if anything) could have been done by the victim so that future potential victims could avoid it.

"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society. I agree that it would be useful to see what works in recovering from trauma, and what doesn't, so that future victims can be helped. But I'm also referring to how we treat each other, and what we allow the people around us to get away with. Notice, for instance, how noobs are treated on this board (and even long-term members). If someone is getting too whiny, too emo, too whatever, other people speak up. In this way, we hold each other accountable for our behavior. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.


 
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 08, 2008, 06:26:55 am
We are each responsible for our own lives...but the Hebrew Nation is to blame for what the Third Reich did.
Whatever. I don't have time for this bullshit.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 08, 2008, 06:28:06 am

Is it really so difficult to believe that the Israelites had a hand in their own suffering?

You know, I don't think you're the kind of person I wish to know.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Dido on May 08, 2008, 07:56:44 am

Is that retardation, Verb, or the truth?

Is it really so difficult to believe that the Israelites had a hand in their own suffering?

Is it so difficult to believe that the majority of a nation would do something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives? You know that this is what Germans got (or hoped to get) in exchange, don't you? They got a leadership that promised prosperity and that time would stop and allow them to stay in the safe past.


What you are saying is roughly this: Oh it happened, and it was so horrible. No, humans would not do that without provocation. Lets dig into the past of the victims and see if they are really as blameless as the pretend to be.

People do not become victims of crimes because they where somehow "blameless" and being murdered is not some kind of retroactive canonization. I agree that the black/white view is as popular as it is tiresome but you are, in your way, buying into it too.

And finally, you are confusing layers of reality. Tempting as it is to simplify things, a nation is not just some kind of bigger individual. Just because people here find excuses to rip each other apart every now and then it does not follow that everybody who was the victim of an atrocity deserved it in some way.



Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 03:44:56 pm

Is it really so difficult to believe that the Israelites had a hand in their own suffering?

You know, I don't think you're the kind of person I wish to know.

I think you've said that before, and I think I'm the kind of person that you don't want to know, but can't get away from. But you don't have to read or respond to my posts, if you don't want to. I won't be offended.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 04:03:44 pm
Is it so difficult to believe that the majority of a nation would do something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives?

Not when I see it happening all over again. :sad:

What you are saying is roughly this: Oh it happened, and it was so horrible. No, humans would not do that without provocation. Lets dig into the past of the victims and see if they are really as blameless as the pretend to be.

People do not become victims of crimes because they where somehow "blameless" and being murdered is not some kind of retroactive canonization. I agree that the black/white view is as popular as it is tiresome but you are, in your way, buying into it too.

And finally, you are confusing layers of reality. Tempting as it is to simplify things, a nation is not just some kind of bigger individual. Just because people here find excuses to rip each other apart every now and then it does not follow that everybody who was the victim of an atrocity deserved it in some way.

To clarify: I think the Holocaust was the worst thing that any humans have ever done to other humans in recorded history. The Jews (and gays, gypsies, etc.) did nothing to deserve what happened to them. They were victimized, brutally, and we (the entire world) is still recovering from it.

Perhaps it is simplifying things too much to treat a nation as an individual, but that nation was made up of millions of individuals. Those individuals were part of families, and those families were part of communities, and those communities were part larger groups, and so on up to the level of the nation. It's not that much of a stretch to say that if something is traumatic to one person, and that if affects those around them for several generations, then something that is traumatic to millions of people will effect most of humanity for quite some time afterwards.

What I'm saying is that it happened, it was so horrible that most of us can't even comprehend what happened or why, and that there was a history of bloodshed for thousands of years before the Holocaust, that did have something to do with why it happened. I'm saying that if we wish to understand what happened, the first place to look is history, and see what happened before this. And if we want to prevent such a horrid thing from ever happening again, we'd be wise to learn our history well.

But, learning our history means seeing the bad parts. It means accepting the really nasty shit that humans have done to one another over the eons. It means that our people (whoever they may be) were not the heroes we've always thought they were. It also means that even when we've been victimized by others, we still have the choice to remain victims or rise above it. Still further, it means that we have the choice to treat someone who has been victimized as either a victim or a survivor. Victims always need help. They are assumed to be incapable of taking care of themselves, or having responsibility for their own lives. They are often treated like children, needing to be coddled and cared for, not allowed to make their own choices, or expected to do things on their own. Survivors are usually perceived as strong and capable. They are expected to continue their lives, making their own choices and only getting help if they ask for it. It's the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish.

Moreover, I believe that it is this victim mentality that has led to "the majority of a nation [doing] something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives". If I'm a victim, and he's a victim, and you're a victim too...then it's okay for someone else to make all the decisions to keep us safe and secure, and we don't have to worry about little things like freedom and prosperity.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 08, 2008, 05:24:30 pm
"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society.

Like rape victims?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on May 08, 2008, 05:38:08 pm
"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society.

Like rape victims?


(http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/9016/roflbotewrxyh7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 08, 2008, 06:05:05 pm
First, @Verbatim:  I understand about the overreacting part.  It's still a hot button issue with a lot of people.  My main gripe with it, though, is how everyone conveniently forgets that European Jews weren't the only ones that got bulldozed into mass graves in recent history.  It wasn't even an isloated incident.  But most of all, it pisses me of because they don't deserve any special treatment just because they had the (mis)fortune to survive the event.

As far as the retardation goes...  Holding modern Jews responsible for the past attrocities of Jews is no different than holding modern day Nazis accountable for their attrocities.  The perps in both cases are dead and gone, but their ideological children are thriving.  I think both are fucktards, but that's just my opinion.  I'd have just a little more respect for them if they fessed up to the evil shit they do/did.


@ Guan Yin:

KYSTB

and

WAYSA?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 06:38:16 pm
"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society.

Like rape victims?

Sure. Just like rape victims.
                     
[/sarcasm]
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 06:39:02 pm
@ Guan Yin:

KYSTB

and

WAYSA?

NO YUO!
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 08, 2008, 06:55:43 pm
"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society.

Like rape victims?

Sure. Just like rape victims.
                     
[/sarcasm]


No, no, no, you need to come up with something Captain Double Standard.

How are Holocaust victims responsible for their own fate, but rape victims are innocent bystanders that deserve immediate fierce justice?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on May 08, 2008, 07:23:07 pm


(http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/9016/roflbotewrxyh7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 08:36:45 pm
"Holding the victim accountable" is referring to the idea that we are each responsible for our own lives...something that I think has often been lost or waylaid in modern society.

Like rape victims?

Sure. Just like rape victims.
                     
[/sarcasm]


No, no, no, you need to come up with something Captain Double Standard.

How are Holocaust victims responsible for their own fate, but rape victims are innocent bystanders that deserve immediate fierce justice?

No, no, no, I don't.  :wink:

But since you asked nicely, I will.

Are they responsible for their fate (as in being forced into concentration camps...worked, starved, gassed to death...etc.)? No. Absolutely not. The Nazis were responsible for that. But were they responsible for their lives? Yes. For where they lived, how they raised their children, how they felt and behaved, and what they chose to leave behind as a legacy. The same is true of rape victims, domestic abuse victims, and every other kind of victim we have on this planet.

My point is that many times, the simple application of the label "victim" automatically invokes a specific reaction and expectation in 'non-victims'. Often pity and sympathy, followed quickly by "you don't have to do that, I'll take care of it for you." Some people learn to use that to their advantage, and have what we're calling the "victim mentality", which they frequently pass on to their children and grandchildren.

Second, this "victim mentality", beyond perpetuating itself, is contributing to the general fuckedupedness of America (and probably the rest of the world). Part of the identity of victimhood is to pass the buck as much as possible. If large groups of people can be convinced that they're being victimized, they'll happily give up whatever you ask them to, so long as they believe the victimization will stop.

Third, even when something traumatic has happened to someone, they have the choice to remain a victim or not. Every single person I've known who went through the Holocaust, was a survivor. Not a scrap of "poor me" about them. To them, the victims were the ones that died.

Guan Yin
-sticking to apple talk and discordian recipes after this
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 08, 2008, 08:58:27 pm
This was all that was needed:

"I'm a huge hypocrite."



You proudly wave the banner of "rape survivor", but don't allow Jews to do the same.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 09:26:30 pm
This was all that was needed:

"I'm a huge hypocrite."



You proudly wave the banner of "rape survivor", but don't allow Jews to do the same.

Should ALL Jews ALWAYS "proudly wave the banner" of surviving the Holocaust?
Are Jews SUPPOSED to be victims?
Should they be proud of their victim status?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 08, 2008, 09:31:50 pm
No more than you should.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 09:34:38 pm
No more than you should.

Fair enough.

Guan Yin
-wonders what skeletons are hiding in HSD's closet.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 08, 2008, 09:35:32 pm
Basically I'm missing how this:

Regardless of the race factor...making rape a capital crime might be a step in the right direction.

Roo,
survivor.

...differs terribly from a Jew complaining.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 08, 2008, 09:36:51 pm
Guan Yin
-wonders what skeletons are hiding in HSD's closet.

I'll bet you are.

Not sure what it's supposed to mean, but if you have an major inquiries, I'm always around.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 09:40:15 pm
Basically I'm missing how this:

Regardless of the race factor...making rape a capital crime might be a step in the right direction.

Roo,
survivor.

...differs terribly from a Jew complaining.

When did I ever say there was a difference? Or that they have no right to complain?

Also, what if I'd never mentioned the survivor bit? How would that change your perception of me?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 08, 2008, 09:46:46 pm
Well, you look down on Wal-mart workers as some kind of peasants, despite the fact that you are unemployed and contribute nothing to society. Hypocrisy.

Except your idiotic analysis of 9-11 "the troothers have a point!" Idiocy.

I'm pretty sure my perception of you wouldn't be all that different.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 09:47:17 pm
Guan Yin
-wonders what skeletons are hiding in HSD's closet.

I'll bet you are.

Not sure what it's supposed to mean, but if you have an major inquiries, I'm always around.

Eh. Just that for a long time, being raped was the skeleton in my closet, and it's always influenced the way I see the world and people around me. So wondering what skeletons are in your closet means I'm curious what fucked up shit has influenced your life, if any. *shrugs* it's not something I'm expecting you to answer...just kind of pointing out that we all have our demons and hypocrises.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 08, 2008, 10:01:39 pm
Well, you look down on Wal-mart workers as some kind of peasants, despite the fact that you are unemployed and contribute nothing to society. Hypocrisy.

Except your idiotic analysis of 9-11 "the troothers have a point!" Idiocy.

I'm pretty sure my perception of you wouldn't be all that different.



Oh, I'm one of the peasants too. I just don't work at Wal-Mart. And what about you? What allows you to spend your days posting on PD.com?


So you think I'm an idiot. I see. Well, this is why I'm one of the peasants, and not one of those analysis "experts" you see on TV.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 08, 2008, 10:08:21 pm
I don't do anything. I'm insane. I spend my days staring into space and contemplating "life."

But I don't look down my nose at others that do the same.

We went over that. You're going to find this difficult if you're not going to be more observant.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 09, 2008, 12:46:55 am
I don't do anything. I'm insane. I spend my days staring into space and contemplating "life."

But I don't look down my nose at others that do the same.

We went over that. You're going to find this difficult if you're not going to be more observant.

Except for the people like me who are unemployed and therefore "not contributing to society".


Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 09, 2008, 12:47:59 am
wut?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 09, 2008, 12:55:26 am
I don't do anything. I'm insane. I spend my days staring into space and contemplating "life."

But I don't look down my nose at others that do the same.

We went over that. You're going to find this difficult if you're not going to be more observant.

Except for the people like me who are unemployed and therefore "not contributing to society".
wut?

Some people would say that I'm insane, but I don't have a doctor's note to prove that. I spend a large portion of my days staring into space and contemplating life.
You've made several comments about how I'm unemployed and not contributing to society, and generally given me the impression that you look down on me for doing that.
That's wut.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 09, 2008, 12:58:42 am
I look down on you because you look down on others.

I generally do my looking down on an individual basis, not with sweeping generalizations.

The reason I make special note of you contributing nothing to society is because you looked down on Wal-Mart employees, despite the fact that they serve more of a function than you do.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 09, 2008, 01:36:29 am
I look down on you because you look down on others.

I generally do my looking down on an individual basis, not with sweeping generalizations.

 So your judgment is better than mine?

Quote
The reason I make special note of you contributing nothing to society is because you looked down on Wal-Mart employees, despite the fact that they serve more of a function than you do.

Having worked a similar function before, for all I pass judgment on the local Wal-Mart employees, I do treat them as actual human beings, and make exceptions in my expectations. But when 9 out of 10 times, I get ridiculously slow service or a rude attitude, I'm not going to think highly of them. I don't think highly of Wal-Mart in general, and I don't shop there anymore, because I object to a company that seems to hire anyone who will show up, doesn't pay them a living wage, and sells cheap crap from China that breaks or falls apart within a year.

Also, the fact that I'm not a cog in the Machine at the moment doesn't mean that I haven't ever been, or won't be again in the near future. What it does mean is that I decided that I don't value being a cashier at Wal-Mart or any other retail establishment as highly as other jobs. If that makes me look down on the people that do those jobs, so be it. We can't all be as perfect as you.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 09, 2008, 01:44:55 am
So your judgment is better than mine?

Yes. Now we are on the same page.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Roo on May 09, 2008, 02:40:33 am
So your judgment is better than mine?

Yes. Now we are on the same page.



 :lulz:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 09, 2008, 01:55:21 pm
As far as the retardation goes...  Holding modern Jews responsible for the past attrocities of Jews is no different than holding modern day Nazis accountable for their attrocities.  The perps in both cases are dead and gone, but their ideological children are thriving.  I think both are fucktards, but that's just my opinion.  I'd have just a little more respect for them if they fessed up to the evil shit they do/did.
I fail to see your point. Who ever held neonazis responsible for the holocaust?
Ideological children my ass, Hitler wasn't the father of fascism and fascists aren't Hitler's ideological children. Nor does "ideological ancestry" make you guilt by association.
This supposed "evil they do/did" was not the doing of the Holocaust victims or survivors, or their "ideological children" or their physical issue (such as myself). Fess up for what "we/they" did? So there's a tiny chance my ancestor a hundred generations back did something crappy. How am I supposed to feel any more guilty for than than for the Holocaust? I'm a German citizen you know, and also considered a Jew according to Judaism's own rules of Who Gets To Be In The Club. So am I supposed to fess up to everything any Jew or German has ever done? Or just what German Jews did? Or just Jews with multiple citizenships? Or what?
I really don't get your point. Maybe I'm stupid or something.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 09, 2008, 03:02:53 pm
As far as the retardation goes...  Holding modern Jews responsible for the past atrocities of Jews is no different than holding modern day Nazis accountable for their atrocities.  The perps in both cases are dead and gone, but their ideological children are thriving.  I think both are fucktards, but that's just my opinion.  I'd have just a little more respect for them if they fessed up to the evil shit they do/did.
I fail to see your point. Who ever held neonazis responsible for the holocaust?
Ideological children my ass, Hitler wasn't the father of fascism and fascists aren't Hitler's ideological children. Nor does "ideological ancestry" make you guilt by association.
This supposed "evil they do/did" was not the doing of the Holocaust victims or survivors, or their "ideological children" or their physical issue (such as myself). Fess up for what "we/they" did? So there's a tiny chance my ancestor a hundred generations back did something crappy. How am I supposed to feel any more guilty for than than for the Holocaust? I'm a German citizen you know, and also considered a Jew according to Judaism's own rules of Who Gets To Be In The Club. So am I supposed to fess up to everything any Jew or German has ever done? Or just what German Jews did? Or just Jews with multiple citizenships? Or what?
I really don't get your point. Maybe I'm stupid or something.


I think, and I could be wrong because the semantics and linguistics appear blessed by the FSM itself, that you both are talking about two different things.

I think Verb is correct, one should not hold an individual responsible for what a society related to that individual has done. No German today, with the exception of the few remaining assholes who were involved, should be considered guilty of the atrocities of the Nazis, no American alive today should be held responsible for the enslavement of Africans or the genocide of Native Americans. Hell, most people I know in those countries are profoundly embarrassed by the actions of the people that came before them.

However, I think that Muffled Phosphor has a point as well, the ideology that says "We are seperate from everyone around us. We will stick only with our own people, our own customs and our own beliefs." makes any minority ripe for abuse. Is it 'right'? Of course not, but does such an ideology bear some responsibility for the perceptions that outsides might have about them? Of course. JW's, Mormons, Jews, the Amish, the current tension between Hispanic immigrants and Americans (or the Irish, or the Catholic etc etc)... in some sense, relates to these groups refusing to join the local tribe, the local set of standards, ideas, language etc. make them seperate, make them different... they place the US/THEM dichotomy on the majority and I find it unsurprising that the majority often responds by acting like monkeys defending their territory from a weird group of other monkeys.

This isn't always the case (see the Aboriginal groups in Aussie or the US), and it surely cannot excuse genocide... but it does seem to be a common contributor to the state that makes a society ripe for such action.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Reverend Ju Ju Booze on May 09, 2008, 03:37:54 pm
In my eperience the problem with generalization goes in a different way:
it's not a "sins of the fathers" kind of stereotypes set,but more a concept blending...
Some examples:very often,at least here,every criticism pointed to Israel (wich is a Country,so we are speaking of political criticism,mind you) is labeled by Israel supporters as "antisemitism". :argh!: "Race" and politics are not the same,but they are blended for rethorical reasons..
"Euthanasia" have two different meanings in modern society and in Nazi society, but not seldom "pro-life" conservatards put some slight reference to the nazi origins of the term.But patient's agreement DOES make a total difference,right?
And so on...often victimization means to use the victims as a scarecrow,to paint some Hitler moustache on opponents...
At least it is like that in Italy,where political debates have nowadays the lamest rethorics,ever.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: BootyBay on May 09, 2008, 03:56:42 pm
In my eperience the problem with generalization goes in a different way:
it's not a "sins of the fathers" kind of stereotypes set,but more a concept blending...
Some examples:very often,at least here,every criticism pointed to Israel (wich is a Country,so we are speaking of political criticism,mind you) is labeled by Israel supporters as "antisemitism". :argh!: "Race" and politics are not the same,but they are blended for rethorical reasons..
"Euthanasia" have two different meanings in modern society and in Nazi society, but not seldom "pro-life" conservatards put some slight reference to the nazi origins of the term.But patient's agreement DOES make a total difference,right?
And so on...often victimization means to use the victims as a scarecrow,to paint some Hitler moustache on opponents...
At least it is like that in Italy,where political debates have nowadays the lamest rethorics,ever.
From: http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2006_05_14_archive.html  (http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2006_05_14_archive.html)

On the US office to combat anti-Semitism.
"This new US government bureaucracy, dedicated to suppressing the free speech of critics of Judaism and Zionism (yes, that's it's covert objective), is a demonstrable violation of our Constitutional separation of church and state, in this case, the separation of synagogue and state. Note the involvement of the racist, gentile-hating Chabad-Lubavitch organization and Judaism's own "Orthodox Union." The Federal government, like the modern Catholic Vatican and the Protestant monarchy of England, are bulwarks for the Judaization of the West, and the jailing of writers, scientists and historians who criticize Judaism or who protest the "Holocaust" libel of the German people (Zundel, Rudolf, Irving and others).

Here we see the US government catering to the typical, "special favoritism" perpetually demanded by Orthodox rabbinic groups. Rickman's bureau within the State dept. gives advantage to one religion over another.

There are no bureaus in the US government for fighting anti-Christian bigotry or the vicious hatred and lies spread about Islam as promoted by George W. Bush's allies in the nominally "Christian" Zionist movement. This datum alone tends to show that Americans are ruled by rabbis through gentile lapdogs in Congress and the White House. The US government, along with the Pope of Rome and the Queen of England, is the enemy of Western civilization, in spite of all the formal pomp and circumstance these entities marshal to induce us to believe otherwise."
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 09, 2008, 05:05:35 pm
However, I think that Muffled Phosphor has a point as well, the ideology that says "We are seperate from everyone around us. We will stick only with our own people, our own customs and our own beliefs." makes any minority ripe for abuse.
I definitely agree with that, and have been saying so for years. Calling yourself the chosen people is just asking for genocide. But this is not what I understood from MP's posts.
Some examples:very often,at least here,every criticism pointed to Israel (wich is a Country,so we are speaking of political criticism,mind you) is labeled by Israel supporters as "antisemitism". :argh!: "Race" and politics are not the same,but they are blended for rethorical reasons..
Look, I'm an Israeli living in Germany, and have expressed anti-Zionist opinions for years... I know this issue first hand. But all too often, closet anti-Semites or outright Jew-bashers use criticism of the State of Israel to express their hateful racist bile towards Israel... It's a difficult issue, no doubt. I've been accused more than once of anti-Semitism, and learned to basically shut up about the country I grew up in until I'm sure whoever I'm talking to knows the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. But frankly, when a European talks spitefully about Israel, my gut reaction is that he's a racist shitbag. This one German started going on about how the world should build a wall around Israel and the Occupied Territories and the Gaza Strip and either nuke the area or let them all kill eachother... As you can imagine, I didn't take this well, and I still consider him a tactless shitbag... He also said something about how he's "sick of Germany sucking up to Israel just because Germany lost the war", so I think he really is a closet Nazi-sympathizer. But there's a very fine line between that, and me saying I basically don't give a shit about what's going on in Israel because neither side is going to make a real effort to make things better until some serious bloodshed has taken place. Of course, when I say this I kinda feel like crying because it's admitting my childhood friends (many of whom are now commando soldiers) and my family might well continue to live in fear and/or die before they get to live in peace. When a German racist shitbag says it he doesn't actually give a shit about the human suffering involved.
So I might be biased here, even hypocritical, but I'm gonna keep being very suspicious any time someone without family in Israel starts arguing against Zionism. Zionism is retarded, but the State of Israel is a fact and ivory towers are not a good place to sit when considering the fate of real people.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: BootyBay on May 09, 2008, 05:10:54 pm
Can I still criticize AIPAC and political Zionists (a lot of whom aren't even Jewish)?

I have nothing against Jews.  I don't have enough energy to hate entire groups of people.  You gotta admit that AIPAC has a lot of clout, though,  so not being able to criticize it without sounding racist is kind of disturbing.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 09, 2008, 06:12:47 pm
Can I still criticize AIPAC and political Zionists (a lot of whom aren't even Jewish)?

I have nothing against Jews.  I don't have enough energy to hate entire groups of people.  You gotta admit that AIPAC has a lot of clout, though,  so not being able to criticize it without sounding racist is kind of disturbing.

This also makes a lot of sense to me. I personally have no idea how a few nations can say "Ok, let's resettle your entire race of people in your traditional homeland which you haven't lived in since 70 CE, kick the people that live there out and then demand that everyone think this is a good idea."

I think that the nation of Israel has as much right to exist as any other (now that's its been recreated), that is, if they can defend their territory from their enemies, work out political deals with their neighbors and, in short, behave like every other nation on the planet. Sadly, most of the loud screaming "YOU MUST HATE J00S" people that I've run across are white American protestants that think they can give Jesus a hand and get that whole Rapture and Killing of Liberals underway.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 09, 2008, 06:25:05 pm
I've never had a problem with people criticizing Israeli policy.  Many of the country's best terrorism experts do such a thing continually, for example.  Especially when a policy is inhumane, barbaric or counterproductive (usually all three of those go together) its a better idea to voice disagreement.

The problem with the Christian Zionists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionist) who bankroll AIPAC is that they a) work off an insane worldview and b) are clearly unware of the is/ought distinction (Israel is the land of God's previously Chosen People, therefore they ought to do everything in their power to defend themselves, no matter how vile it may be).  I don't blame the Israeli members of AIPAC for taking these idiots for a ride, I'm pretty sure they are aware that Christian Zionists actually care nothing for Israel beyond fulfilling some prophecy or another, and if the Israelis in question are not religious in their outlook, well then its a free gravy train.  The problem lays in those Christian Zionist members of AIPAC also having a very large amount of clout in the US government's policy, a strange case of scripture leading strategy.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 09, 2008, 06:34:59 pm
I've never had a problem with people criticizing Israeli policy.  Many of the country's best terrorism experts do such a thing continually, for example.  Especially when a policy is inhumane, barbaric or counterproductive (usually all three of those go together) its a better idea to voice disagreement.

The problem with the Christian Zionists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionist) who bankroll AIPAC is that they a) work off an insane worldview and b) are clearly unware of the is/ought distinction (Israel is the land of God's previously Chosen People, therefore they ought to do everything in their power to defend themselves, no matter how vile it may be).  I don't blame the Israeli members of AIPAC for taking these idiots for a ride, I'm pretty sure they are aware that Christian Zionists actually care nothing for Israel beyond fulfilling some prophecy or another, and if the Israelis in question are not religious in their outlook, well then its a free gravy train.  The problem lays in those Christian Zionist members of AIPAC also having a very large amount of clout in the US government's policy, a strange case of scripture leading strategy.

ZOOOM Goes Cain's Motorcycle.

A Jewish political professor gave a lecture here at OSU about 6 months ago where he spent a lot of time discussing the difference between statements that are critical of Israel and antisemitic statements. He boiled it down to a very simple demarcation: If the statement is about Israeli policy, military decisions, etc its not necessarily antisemitic. If however, the criticism lays blame for *insert random problem here* on 'the Jews', makes statements about how the Jews are controlling the US policymakers, or about how the Jews are using the US to destroy their enemies, or that Israel doesn't have the right to exist etc.... then that falls into the realm of anti-semitic thought. In short, if the critique is about actions taken by the Israeli Government, then that's one thing, if its stereotypes the Jews as a whole, presumes some secret agenda by them, or insinuates that the Jews as a people are manipulating world events... then its antisemitism.

All in all, it was a decent lecture.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 09, 2008, 06:41:12 pm
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.  Keep in mind that there is no such thing as evil.  Yes, this means that they're both just barbaric assholes.

It is always rather difficult to properly criticize Jews for asshattery because they've insisted on bundling their political ideology, religious beliefs and racial identity under the same banner.  So any time one aspect is attacked they defend with the other two.  It is retarded, but they believe in an imaginary friend/bully who alternately rewards them and kicks their ass. Now that I think of it, I'm starting to wonder if they shouldn't be adding to their Book the parts where the holocaust was god spanking them (again) for being naughty (again).   :lulz:



Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 09, 2008, 06:50:39 pm
Ratatosk:  Yeah, I did a course on ideology last year, and decided to specialize in Fascism and Neo-Fascism (despite eventually doing my paper on Communism - a side effect of reading Camus) and I would tend to agree.  Naturally I spent quite a bit of time on less than fairminded and open sites researching Neofascist ideology and language and I have noticed the same things, namely the distinction between the action and the people carrying out the action, and the justification for it.  Usually those concerned with policy will only make mention of the policy, and will contrast it against international law or, if they are less moral/more pragmatic, its intended results, as justification of their criticism.

However, overuse of the identity of the people carrying out an idiotic policy suggests something else entirely.  As an antifascist research group here pointed out, people who place excessive emphasis on Zionism are at least suspect, especially where they do not draw from the ideas of Zionism directly to a polcy.  I know the British National Party, our local fascists, use Zionist, Israeli and Jew interchangeably, and when called out on it only then remember the distinction.

MP: I believe the Kabbalah Centre (of which Madonna is a member) claimed that the Holocaust was judgement from God and only the wicked were killed.  I'm sure Mangrove could tell you more, however.  There are a number of Jewish religious fanatics who seem to believe that (which I think reinforces my original point of a victim discourse), which is somewhat disturbing.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 09, 2008, 10:14:40 pm
MP, in my experience the only groups that purposely use "the Jews" as the collective bundle of religion+ethnicity+politic are the fascists on both sides - the racist anti-Semite variety, and the more subtly racist Jewish fascists. The religion is the only one that correctly labels someone a Jew, imho, so I would consider myself a Hebrew (ethnicity) and Israeli (national identity) among other things, but not a Jew and not a Zionist (politic). But as these things go, I'm pretty much alone in insisting on this distinction because most people who care enough to think about it fall into the above fascists varieties of bundlers. But anyhow, when you say something about "the Jews", I read that as intentional bundling. I think we're really on the same page, or as close as can be, all circumstances considered.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Reverend Ju Ju Booze on May 10, 2008, 12:40:28 pm
Keep in mind language differences,for example Italian doesn't have two different words for "Jew" and "Hebrew" - both are translated with "Ebreo".Sure,we have "Giudeo" ("Judaic") but nobody uses it because it's too much "year 15 B.C."When referring to Hebrew institutions or culture we use "Ebraico", but this is just an adjectivation (does this word exist?) of the previously noted word,wich is anyway not offensive to Jews...
Also,there are some paradox you may not know:actually around here fascist and neo-fascist in particular loves Israel and Zionism,considering it an example of strict and strong identitarian state and ideology,things they really dig.
On the other hand critics of Israel are usually more pro-palestine-right-to-be-a-state than anti-Israel,and almost always anti-racist anyway.(all leftist groups are pro-palestine here,but surly non-rcist tough).
Neo-fascism is always been more identitarian than racist:for example they've always been anti-islamic presence in Italy,but on the other hand many groups looked at khomeini as an inspiring example:anti-islamic HERE,pro-sharia in Islamic countries:they believe that every Nation have an Identity it must upheld.That's why the most political fascist are pro-Israel:because it's Nationalist.
Obviously the more Nigger-beating oriented groups just hate Jews,Blacks,Reds (both political and ethnic)...
(don't get me wrong,both fascist styles are scum to me)
And the two groups DOES overlap.
This is because,unlike civilized countries,we have outspoken neo-fascist groups (forza nuova,for example) who are officially recognized and even ran at the last elections (without qualifying for representetion,luckily).
So,some neo-fascist use the more "politically correct" fascism just to get the benefits of legitimization,others really believes in it,making old and new school overlapping.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 10, 2008, 10:17:14 pm
Yes, I'm aware about that matter in Italian... Wasn't so aware of the attitudes towards Israel and the Palestinians, so thanks.
Naturally these things differ from culture to culture, from language to language... I can only testify about the cultures I'm more familiar with.
But anyhow, Jews over the ages have made it far too easy for the world to bundle them into one ethnic-religious-political pidgeonhole. It's never surprising when the concepts of Jew, Hebrew and Zionist are seen by others as inseparable.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 10, 2008, 10:38:49 pm
You know, given how this conversation, as it evolved, would have worked out on other sites (http://hxxp://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=13462&sid=dba28b67afd3dabee009ebb15241496a) (*cough cough*) I have to say this just reinforces how awsum we are.

 8)

Incidentally, that link is probably not SFW if you work anywhere where having some sort of clarity of thought is encouraged, or hilarious conspiracy theories are looked down upon instead of considered cheap humour.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2008, 06:19:01 am
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Reverend Ju Ju Booze on May 11, 2008, 02:52:12 pm
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.
So,we should look for non-moral responsibility,for historical ones.So,if I got Phosphore right,he's analysis of holocaust goes like this:
"Nazis persecuted Jews for their reasons,okay,but also Jews "made" themselves an easy racist's target by not blending in the majority".
So point is not if they deserved it or not.Point is:are the historical and social ingredients wich built up the holocaust still there?
Do we have closed minority wich doesn't blend in?(I'm not questioning whether are they wrong or right in doing so,only if they do)
Do we have a majority concerned about it's "identity"?(same as above)
Do we have a crisis wich makes people wonder who's to blame?
If so,it doesn't really matter if military-looking parades are held or not in our country,the ingredients for xenophoby,identitarianism,and fascism are there.
We must think about it.

Now,only Phosphore himself can tell me if that was what he meant.If so,I think his point is very interesting.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 11, 2008, 03:15:46 pm
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.
So,we should look for non-moral responsibility,for historical ones.So,if I got Phosphore right,he's analysis of holocaust goes like this:
"Nazis persecuted Jews for their reasons,okay,but also Jews "made" themselves an easy racist's target by not blending in the majority".
So point is not if they deserved it or not.Point is:are the historical and social ingredients wich built up the holocaust still there?
Do we have closed minority wich doesn't blend in?(I'm not questioning whether are they wrong or right in doing so,only if they do)
Do we have a majority concerned about it's "identity"?(same as above)
Do we have a crisis wich makes people wonder who's to blame?
If so,it doesn't really matter if military-looking parades are held or not in our country,the ingredients for xenophoby,identitarianism,and fascism are there.
We must think about it.

Now,only Phosphore himself can tell me if that was what he meant.If so,I think his point is very interesting.

 :mittens:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 11, 2008, 06:23:46 pm
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?

Yep.

Eye for a 3000 year old eye.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2008, 07:24:48 pm
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.


So being a Nazi is okay, because someone else was mean a long time ago.
\
:joshua:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2008, 07:25:55 pm

So,we should look for non-moral responsibility,for historical ones.So,if I got Phosphore right,he's analysis of holocaust goes like this:
"Nazis persecuted Jews for their reasons,okay,but also Jews "made" themselves an easy racist's target by not blending in the majority".

[/quote]

I see.  "Be the same as us, or we'll kill you" is a perfectly acceptable credo.


:mullet:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on May 11, 2008, 07:41:44 pm
um, i don't see how you think Rev JJB says this?

in fact, pretty much the opposite. where does he say it's acceptable at all?
it is what happened, and we should be on the lookout for signs so that it doesnt happen again.

that's what's being said, i don't understand at all where you're getting this.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2008, 07:49:58 pm
um, i don't see how you think Rev JJB says this?

in fact, pretty much the opposite. where does he say it's acceptable at all?
it is what happened, and we should be on the lookout for signs so that it doesnt happen again.

that's what's being said, i don't understand at all where you're getting this.

I'm responding to his defense of the OP's assfuckery.

I fail to see how the parts I quoted didn't correspond with my answers.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on May 11, 2008, 07:57:04 pm
well, the part where he supposedly says it's acceptable, as opposed to simply stating what has happened.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2008, 08:34:02 pm
well, the part where he supposedly says it's acceptable, as opposed to simply stating what has happened.

Who, the OP?  He has stated that they deserved it.  I assume that implies he means it is an acceptable result.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 11, 2008, 10:31:37 pm
I just remembered why the whole "they made themselves easy targets" falls apart when it comes to the Holocaust... The German Jews of united Germany (post 1870) considered themselves Germans first, Jews later. iirc, they came under fire from the other Jews for assimilating themselves too enthusiastically... The reason the Jews didn't leave this place when things started getting bad, was that they couldn't fathom that their country would turn against them because they're Jews... They didn't think of themselves of Jews, they were just Germans with a different religion... They needed to be carefully weeded out by a very thorough government, to be exposed at all.
So fuck that. Hitler had a grunge, the Jews were historically a good target... But they weren't visible to him, not by any effort of theirs... He saw enemies because he was a nationalist madman. Nazi anti-Semitism was never a direct continuation of classical European anti-Semitism. It may have been informed and inspired by it, but it was not the same thing. While "they stick out" is a reasonable thought when trying to understand classical anti-Semitism, the Nazi variety is a different breed entirely and has nothing to do with sticking out.
Fuck you.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2008, 10:35:19 pm
I just remembered why the whole "they made themselves easy targets" falls apart when it comes to the Holocaust... The German Jews of united Germany (post 1870) considered themselves Germans first, Jews later. iirc, they came under fire from the other Jews for assimilating themselves too enthusiastically... The reason the Jews didn't leave this place when things started getting bad, was that they couldn't fathom that their country would turn against them because they're Jews... They didn't think of themselves of Jews, they were just Germans with a different religion... They needed to be carefully weeded out by a very thorough government, to be exposed at all.
So fuck that. Hitler has a grunge, the Jews were historically a good target... But they weren't visible to him, not by any effort of theirs... He saw enemies because he was a nationalist madman. Nazi anti-Semitism was never a direct continuation of classical European anti-Semitism. It may have been informed and inspired by it, but it was not the same thing. While "they stick out" is a reasonable thought when trying to understand classical anti-Semitism, the Nazi variety is a different breed entirely and has nothing to do with sticking out.
Fuck you.

Tell it to Herr Muffled Phosphor.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 11, 2008, 11:02:24 pm
Its true.  Naziism was what I believe is called "second wave" antisemitism, which is predicated on biological/Social Darwinist ideas of nationality.  No doubt it meshed well with stereotypes proglumated by Christian antisemites, like deicide and the blood libel (reinforcing the biological 'outsider' = political/cultural outsider idea), but the basic issue was that of heritage, not integration.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on May 12, 2008, 01:42:10 am
well, the part where he supposedly says it's acceptable, as opposed to simply stating what has happened.

Who, the OP?  He has stated that they deserved it.  I assume that implies he means it is an acceptable result.

ah, sorry now i get it. hm can't even blame lack of coffee :)
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2008, 01:53:28 am
well, the part where he supposedly says it's acceptable, as opposed to simply stating what has happened.

Who, the OP?  He has stated that they deserved it.  I assume that implies he means it is an acceptable result.

ah, sorry now i get it. hm can't even blame lack of coffee :)

Wait.  The holocaust happened because someone missed their coffee?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2008, 02:00:21 am
I don't know about you, but when I don't have any in a while, I'm cranky as fuck.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Reverend Ju Ju Booze on May 12, 2008, 02:08:34 am
I know(not about coffee,about the second wave bit),but I've just tried to understand what some controversial posts meant (and failed?)
Just to clarify a bit: I was not "defending OP assfuckery",only I don't believe that "they deserved it" is what he was saying.That's FAR from agreeing with him.
But:
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.


So being a Nazi is okay, because someone else was mean a long time ago.

NO.IT'S NOT.But neither is judging PEOPLES the way you do with individuals:at some point everybody did something wrong.
That's the only point I share with Phosphor,and keep in mind that it doesn't imply that anybody deserved anything.
That's why I don't think he was saying so.

@ Verb (wich sounded pissed off): sorry, I need to say to you that if anything I say sounds like justifying tha nazis,read twice or ask explanations:it's surely meaning something else.I'm totally against guiltification of Jews/Hebrew (please tell me how I use two words both meaning "Ebreo"),and that also for personal cultural reasons:really TOO often I see people,even parlamentarian representatives,talking about "rewriting history about fascism,wich is been written by communists".I saw a Salò veteran named minister... :argh!:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2008, 02:19:43 am

NO.IT'S NOT.But neither is judging PEOPLES the way you do with individuals:at some point everybody did something wrong.
That's the only point I share with Phosphor,and keep in mind that it doesn't imply that anybody deserved anything.
That's why I don't think he was saying so.


I think he was saying so, because he said he was saying so.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 12, 2008, 05:07:09 am
RJJB, I'm not pissed with you, not really pissed at all anymore, maybe still a little with Muffled.
As for Hebrew/Jew, I personally use "Hebrew" to refer to people of Jewish ancestry (such as myself), that is, I use the term for the ethnic group you call ebreo; I use "Jew" for people of the Jewish religion (such as my sister). But most people use "Hebrew" the way I do sometimes, and mostly use "Jew" for both.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 12, 2008, 06:54:16 pm
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.  The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 12, 2008, 07:03:51 pm
If I got it right Phosphor point it's all about wipin' out the concept of "deserving".
I think he's point is that is pointless to look at history trying to find out who the bastards are:if you consider a long enough piece of history...Ta-Daan!Humanity itself is the villain.
So,we should look for non-moral responsibility,for historical ones.So,if I got Phosphore right,he's analysis of holocaust goes like this:
"Nazis persecuted Jews for their reasons,okay,but also Jews "made" themselves an easy racist's target by not blending in the majority".
So point is not if they deserved it or not.Point is:are the historical and social ingredients wich built up the holocaust still there?
Do we have closed minority wich doesn't blend in?(I'm not questioning whether are they wrong or right in doing so,only if they do)
Do we have a majority concerned about it's "identity"?(same as above)
Do we have a crisis wich makes people wonder who's to blame?
If so,it doesn't really matter if military-looking parades are held or not in our country,the ingredients for xenophoby,identitarianism,and fascism are there.
We must think about it.

Now,only Phosphore himself can tell me if that was what he meant.If so,I think his point is very interesting.

That's an interesting reading of it, but not quite where I was going.  Certainly it is the correct path if you're looking to artificially and temporarily alleviating such conditions within a very narrowly defined context.  Honestly, I don't like humans enough to care about preventing repeat performances.  Quite the opposite, actually.

I was thinking more along the lines of illuminating such human behavior with the light of the Sermon on Ethics and Love (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/45.php).
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Idem on May 12, 2008, 07:13:41 pm
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.
Bullshit.  The nazis actually COMMITTED THE FUCKING GENOCIDE.  The Jews supposedly had ancestors that did it.

It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.
But they (modern-day Jews) weren't the ones doing it.

The nazis, however, actually killed people.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 12, 2008, 07:26:03 pm
It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

Good analogy.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2008, 07:28:08 pm
I'll chime back in here.  I believe I owe Verb some clarification.

This thread has evolved past the point I was making, but I'd like to just touch upon it before going forward once more.  My point was that if you hold genocide to be evil, then the 3,200 year old club calling itself "teh Jews" is every bit as evil as the Nazis.

Wait.  So the Jews who were killed in deathcamps deserved it, because some Jews 3000 years ago killed off some Canaanites?
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.
Bullshit.  The nazis actually COMMITTED THE FUCKING GENOCIDE.  The Jews supposedly had ancestors that did it.

It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

Agreed, though if you glorify your Uncle and say that God told him to kill all of those people, you might be a bit compromised if you're condeming another murderer...

More importantly though, is the question of NOW.

The Jews/Hebrews/Israelis should, I think it goes without saying, not be held accountable for the actions of their forefathers, particularly since there's not much evidence that anything pre-539 BC existed outside someones imagination. Surely the actions of ancient people, should not be considered in dealing with modern people. This seems true to me, even if "ancient" is nothing more than 50 years or so. A German living today, should not be held accountable for the actions of Hitler. Likewise, a Jew living today, should not be coddled as a victim, simply because someone with similar DNA was a victim in the past.

So, no, the Nazis have no excuse for their actions... and I can't agree that the ancient legends of Cannan were in any way a justification for the Nazi actions... other than to exemplify that genocide has been a mainstay of human life for at least 3500 years.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on May 12, 2008, 07:35:35 pm
I'm still trying to get my head around the "They chose to be different, so they made targets of themselves."







Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 12, 2008, 07:36:40 pm
I'm still trying to get my head around the "They chose to be different, so they made targets of themselves."

No one here said that, right?
Wasn't that a book or something?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on May 12, 2008, 07:41:47 pm
Hmm.  You may be right.

LMNO
-has been skimming.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2008, 07:42:59 pm
I'm still trying to get my head around the "They chose to be different, so they made targets of themselves."

No one here said that, right?
Wasn't that a book or something?

Well I said:

Quote
the ideology that says "We are seperate from everyone around us. We will stick only with our own people, our own customs and our own beliefs." makes any minority ripe for abuse. Is it 'right'? Of course not, but does such an ideology bear some responsibility for the perceptions that outsides might have about them? Of course. JW's, Mormons, Jews, the Amish, the current tension between Hispanic immigrants and Americans (or the Irish, or the Catholic etc etc)... in some sense, relates to these groups refusing to join the local tribe, the local set of standards, ideas, language etc. make them seperate, make them different... they place the US/THEM dichotomy on the majority and I find it unsurprising that the majority often responds by acting like monkeys defending their territory from a weird group of other monkeys.

Which could be interpreted as LMNO stated.... though I was making a clinical observation, rather than saying that it was justified.

When a minority says "We are gonna be different than you. We are gonna have our own churches, our own language, our own beanies, our own hairstyles, our own neighborhoods...", the host society will see them as a separate tribe. Sadly, primates of majority tribes tend to shit on primates of minority tribes. If you willingly place your culture in the position of being a minority tribe... you will likely get shat on.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: AFK on May 12, 2008, 08:03:43 pm
I think that's a rather self-centered view.  To view it as someone willingfully being different from you, as opposed to looking at it like they are just being themselves.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like a minority is being a minority to be a minority, instead of a minority being a minority because, well, that's just the way they want to live. 
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2008, 08:15:28 pm
I think that's a rather self-centered view.  To view it as someone willingfully being different from you, as opposed to looking at it like they are just being themselves.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like a minority is being a minority to be a minority, instead of a minority being a minority because, well, that's just the way they want to live. 

I think you're confusing my observation "this is how humans tend to act" and "Ratatosk thinks minorities are ..." ;-)

I don't care why a minority wants to act differently. I don't care how they behave as long as they aren't harming other people. However, I am not surprised when the different acting group gets picked on.... Besides, most societies that maintain their minority identity, tend to do so intentionally... to mark themselves as special and separate. JW's behave as they do because "They are no part of the world" and want to show everyone by example. The Amish are the same. The Jews, follow similarly. They are different, because they believe that they are special 'the Chosen people'.

Anytime a small group acts weird then says "Oh well, that's because we're so special", I expect the other primates will likely throw poo or worse at them.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 12, 2008, 08:19:57 pm
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.
Bullshit.  The nazis actually COMMITTED THE FUCKING GENOCIDE.  The Jews supposedly had ancestors that did it.

It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

False analogy.  It has nothing to do with geneology and everything to do with ideology.

A better anaolgy would be:  It's like saying you can't "bitch" about genocide if you're a Nazi.

Ratatosk hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that modern Germans can't be held responsible for the holocaust any more than modern Jews can claim victim status for it.  That right there should be E/O/T.

Quote
The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.
But they (modern-day Jews) weren't the ones doing it.

The Jews, however, actually killed people.
fixt

Stop dodging the issue.  Humans do fucked up shit.  All of them.  Just because they got their asses handed to them this time around doesn't excuse past behavior.  I wouldn't be quite so firm on this issue if they didn't insist so strongly that they were the same people (people = homogenous cultural and political organization).

And just because a group that is known to support genocide in the past is not currently (overtly) engaging in mass genocide does not mean that they won't revert to mass genocide again if the mood should take them.  My point here being that all three major brands of Abrahamic religions (or however the fuck you define them) are rooted in the "old testament" they share in common.  All three claim that ALL MORALITY comes directly from their god and defend their past actions of genocide, slavery, rape, and misogyny as directly ordained by their god (and therefore perfectly moral).  There is rot in the core of their moral code and it is that rot that I despise.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: AFK on May 12, 2008, 08:22:29 pm
I think that's a rather self-centered view.  To view it as someone willingfully being different from you, as opposed to looking at it like they are just being themselves.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like a minority is being a minority to be a minority, instead of a minority being a minority because, well, that's just the way they want to live. 

I think you're confusing my observation "this is how humans tend to act" and "Ratatosk thinks minorities are ..." ;-)

I don't care why a minority wants to act differently. I don't care how they behave as long as they aren't harming other people. However, I am not surprised when the different acting group gets picked on.... Besides, most societies that maintain their minority identity, tend to do so intentionally... to mark themselves as special and separate. JW's behave as they do because "They are no part of the world" and want to show everyone by example. The Amish are the same. The Jews, follow similarly. They are different, because they believe that they are special 'the Chosen people'.

Anytime a small group acts weird then says "Oh well, that's because we're so special", I expect the other primates will likely throw poo or worse at them.


define "acts weird"
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2008, 08:28:45 pm
I think that's a rather self-centered view.  To view it as someone willingfully being different from you, as opposed to looking at it like they are just being themselves.  The way you phrase it makes it sound like a minority is being a minority to be a minority, instead of a minority being a minority because, well, that's just the way they want to live. 

I think you're confusing my observation "this is how humans tend to act" and "Ratatosk thinks minorities are ..." ;-)

I don't care why a minority wants to act differently. I don't care how they behave as long as they aren't harming other people. However, I am not surprised when the different acting group gets picked on.... Besides, most societies that maintain their minority identity, tend to do so intentionally... to mark themselves as special and separate. JW's behave as they do because "They are no part of the world" and want to show everyone by example. The Amish are the same. The Jews, follow similarly. They are different, because they believe that they are special 'the Chosen people'.

Anytime a small group acts weird then says "Oh well, that's because we're so special", I expect the other primates will likely throw poo or worse at them.


define "acts weird"


Acts in a manner differently than the majority tribe. The more visible/obvious the 'weirdness' to outsiders, the more likely that the minority tribe will, at some point get the crap kicked out of them.

So that may include, but not be limited to:

Different God
Different Church
Different Clothing
Different Language
Separate Social Group
Separate Neighborhoods

Now, I think, (I could be wrong) that I've often supported and encouraged that individuals should 'think for themselves', and I do not intend this to say "These groups are dumb because they think for themselves". Rather, I'm stating that groups which intentionally behave differently than the majority appear more likely to be victims of abuse, genocide, prejudice etc.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: AFK on May 12, 2008, 08:34:55 pm
I guess to me this still reads like it's the minoritie's fault.  That it is their actions, the way they live that is bringing them the uninvited grief.  From my perspective it's the other side of the coin.  It isn't that the minority is intentionally acting different.  They are just living the way they want to live.  It's that the knee-jerk majority has either a God-complex or some seething insecurity in that they need to weed out anyone who is different than them. 

In other words, it's not that the minority are acting "weird" or "different", it's that the oppressive majority are fucking pricks. 
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: hunter s.durden on May 12, 2008, 08:35:04 pm
All I know is this, if we're going for E/O/T: A few month ago I had to listen to some fuck hole talk about how "Bolshevik Jews" or something, started Communism and blah blah blah. This same guy went on to bitch about "Zionists" and how blacks and Jews are racially(genetically) inferior.
This man was a cop, and he is not the only one to think this way.

SO: Fuck the Holocaust. Let's drop the Holocaust and talk about how things are RIGHT NOW. Jews are still victimized unfairly in todays world. All the jokes made about money grubbing and murdering Christians for their bizzare rituals are true to the bigots. I don't know where this thread was headed, but you're fucking blind if you think Jews don't still face unfair persecution.

Jews would be just as bad off as blacks if they didn't look so white, or if their culture followed the same downturn that plagued Black culture (gangster rap, thug life... c'mon fellas... rapping about murder and rape aren't the best way to reverse negative stereotypes).

Anyhoo: Fuck France.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 12, 2008, 08:36:41 pm
MP, why do you insist on believing "the Jews" are a singular entity in any kind of real sense?

I "bitch and moan" about the Holocaust, amongst other things, because my grandmother's family was revoked of its German citizenship, forced out of its home, had its property and holding seized, and was subsequently sent, for the most part, to Poland to be butchered. The fact that Hitler thought he was doing it to "the Jews" means nothing to me. No ideology of mine identifies me or anyone in my family as "the Jews". So explain to me how the fuck me or my family has anything to do with Canaan, and why I don't have a right to feel kinda pissed about what happened not far away from where I live, only decades before I was born?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Idem on May 12, 2008, 08:39:18 pm
Welcome to entirely missing the point.

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.
Bullshit.  The nazis actually COMMITTED THE FUCKING GENOCIDE.  The Jews supposedly had ancestors that did it.

It's like saying you can't "bitch" about murderers if your great uncle was one.

False analogy.  It has nothing to do with geneology and everything to do with ideology.

A better anaolgy would be:  It's like saying you can't "bitch" about genocide if you're a Nazi.

Ratatosk hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that modern Germans can't be held responsible for the holocaust any more than modern Jews can claim victim status for it.  That right there should be E/O/T.

Quote
The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.
But they (modern-day Jews) weren't the ones doing it.

The Jews, however, actually killed people.
fixt

Stop dodging the issue.  Humans do fucked up shit.  All of them.  Just because they got their asses handed to them this time around doesn't excuse past behavior.  I wouldn't be quite so firm on this issue if they didn't insist so strongly that they were the same people (people = homogenous cultural and political organization).

And just because a group that is known to support genocide in the past is not currently (overtly) engaging in mass genocide does not mean that they won't revert to mass genocide again if the mood should take them.  My point here being that all three major brands of Abrahamic religions (or however the fuck you define them) are rooted in the "old testament" they share in common.  All three claim that ALL MORALITY comes directly from their god and defend their past actions of genocide, slavery, rape, and misogyny as directly ordained by their god (and therefore perfectly moral).  There is rot in the core of their moral code and it is that rot that I despise.
So, who are these people you keep talking about that claim modern-day nazis committed genocide?

Amoung modern-day nazis offenses (though there are some that are only fascist bastards, not racist), AFAIK, would be:

1.)  Being anti-semetic
2.)  Looking up to a man that committed genocide as a kind of hero
3.)  Beating up minorites every now and then

They didn't actually commit the genocide those many decades ago, and I don't see anybody claiming that they are responsible for it.  For the most part, you seem to be speaking hypothetically.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2008, 08:59:55 pm
I guess to me this still reads like it's the minoritie's fault.  That it is their actions, the way they live that is bringing them the uninvited grief.  From my perspective it's the other side of the coin.  It isn't that the minority is intentionally acting different.  They are just living the way they want to live.  It's that the knee-jerk majority has either a God-complex or some seething insecurity in that they need to weed out anyone who is different than them. 

In other words, it's not that the minority are acting "weird" or "different", it's that the oppressive majority are fucking pricks. 

Ah, now you're getting your morality circuit and territory circuit confused good Reverend. ;-)


(Here follows metaphor using Leary's 8 circuit model)
In a wonderful world, where humans had strong third and fourth circuits, with an "I'm OK/You're OK" imprint on the first two circuits (Friendly Strength)... then we all could behave however we wished without any sort of resulting genocide and nonsense. However, mosbunal humans, imprint weakly on the first circuit, leaving them to see the world as an unfriendly place, full of weird and dangerous things. If these poor sods also imprint 'weak' on tewrritory, then they will roll over when the Big Dogs start goosestepping and burning books. If they imprint strong on the second circuit, then they'll likely be the Big Dogs goosestepping and burning books.

People who imprint "Unfriendly Strength", when in the position of a majority, will see "Us vs Them" whenever a minority group begins visibly behaving differently... no matter what the reason for this different behavior might be. We may not like it... and those few of the human species who like to examine nuance might find it revolting... but as far as I can tell, its just humans acting like humans.

Indeed... I would say that both the minority, intentionally trying to be 'different' (not all that unlike the Discordian who is absurd in order to be special) and the majority, intentionally trying to wipe out the competing tribe, are both behaving like human beings... the sad, damned creatures that we are.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: AFK on May 12, 2008, 09:11:06 pm
1) I don't know if you've noticed while you've been here but I don't get involved with this 8-Circuit stuff.  So I'm afraid most of your above post means nothing to me.
2)  However the last two lines:  "Indeed... I would say that both the minority, intentionally trying to be 'different' (not all that unlike the Discordian who is absurd in order to be special) and the majority, intentionally trying to wipe out the competing tribe, are both behaving like human beings... the sad, damned creatures that we are."

Again, you keep talking about this minority, intentionally trying to be 'different'.  Is it your position or opinion that all minorities intentionally try to be different?  And further this seems to suggest that minorities are strictly, or mostly, basing their behavior upon what others are doing, and not simply what they wish to do for themselves. 

For example, I am not a Baptist anymore.  Is it because I want to be different then the majority of my family who are still Baptists?  No, it's because I don't fuckin want to be Baptist anymore.  It's not because I want to be different from them, it's because it's what I want for me. 
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 12, 2008, 09:46:29 pm
MP, why do you insist on believing "the Jews" are a singular entity in any kind of real sense?
It's a convenient label to identify all persons joined together under the banner of a readily defined moral and religious belief system.  I'm not sure I understand your question.  Are you saying there are no such things as Jews?  Or are you making the distinction that they are (collectively) just as fractured and balkanized as their Christian and Muslim offspring? (both of whom I also consider to be Jews, at least as far as reminding them of this fact pisses them off.  I do this just for the lulz, though).

I know "the Jews" aren't organized as a singular entity in any way, shape, or form, but they all identify with the same religion and moral beliefs.  If they can identify themselves as such, I can call them as such.  Can't I?  If not, how can they claim persecution (considering that you imply they don't exist)?

Quote
I "bitch and moan" about the Holocaust, amongst other things, because my grandmother's family was revoked of its German citizenship, forced out of its home, had its property and holding seized, and was subsequently sent, for the most part, to Poland to be butchered. The fact that Hitler thought he was doing it to "the Jews" means nothing to me. No ideology of mine identifies me or anyone in my family as "the Jews". So explain to me how the fuck me or my family has anything to do with Canaan, and why I don't have a right to feel kinda pissed about what happened not far away from where I live, only decades before I was born?

Oh, well, I stand corrected.  If one simply looks closely at all of the individuals involved in anything, one quickly sees that there is no collective group at all.  Organized religions do not exist.  Nations don't exist.  It's all people acting individually.  I get it, now.  So the Holocaust didn't really happen either, because none of those people were really Jews. It was just random mass murder.  My bad.  I didn't understand that part.  Thank you for educating me.


Look Bub, you can be as pissed off as you want, but the people who fucked over your family are dead. All of them. That chapter is over.  Turn the page. On with the next chapter.  If you really want to talk about the last chapter, then don't get bent when somebody like me refers to chapters before that one.  The point being that the world owes holocaust survivors and their families exactly as much as they do the people of Canaan, Carthage, or the Cherokee Nation.  That is to say: nothing.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2008, 09:47:00 pm
1) I don't know if you've noticed while you've been here but I don't get involved with this 8-Circuit stuff.  So I'm afraid most of your above post means nothing to me.

That's too bad, this is one of the few times that the model would probably have been helpful.
 

Quote
2)  However the last two lines:  "Indeed... I would say that both the minority, intentionally trying to be 'different' (not all that unlike the Discordian who is absurd in order to be special) and the majority, intentionally trying to wipe out the competing tribe, are both behaving like human beings... the sad, damned creatures that we are."

Again, you keep talking about this minority, intentionally trying to be 'different'.  Is it your position or opinion that all minorities intentionally try to be different?  And further this seems to suggest that minorities are strictly, or mostly, basing their behavior upon what others are doing, and not simply what they wish to do for themselves. 

For example, I am not a Baptist anymore.  Is it because I want to be different then the majority of my family who are still Baptists?  No, it's because I don't fuckin want to be Baptist anymore.  It's not because I want to be different from them, it's because it's what I want for me. 

We as individual, may or may not act intentionally different. However, in at least some cases, the minority is acting differently, with the express purpose of being different.

When visiting Amish country once, we stopped by a yard sale and the Amish lady was getting rid of some dresses. My mom wanted to buy one, but she was politely told no. The Amish lady said that they dress and act differently, because they are "to be no part of the world". When asked what they would do if everyone began following their lifestyle, the lady said simply "We would change. We have no desire to be part of their world".

Jehovah's Witnesses, if you ask them, will provide a similar answer as to why their conduct is so different. No Part of this World. They want to be different, they want to be special, they WANT to stand out. The Jews have behaved in exactly the same manner since we have evidence of their existence. They are the Chosen People, everyone else are Gentiles.

So yes, the minority, in these cases are intentionally saying "US vs. THEM"... so, in response, the majority sees "US vs. THEM".  If political and social pressures are right, "Us vs. Them" becomes persecution.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: AFK on May 12, 2008, 09:58:32 pm
Quote
2)  However the last two lines:  "Indeed... I would say that both the minority, intentionally trying to be 'different' (not all that unlike the Discordian who is absurd in order to be special) and the majority, intentionally trying to wipe out the competing tribe, are both behaving like human beings... the sad, damned creatures that we are."

Again, you keep talking about this minority, intentionally trying to be 'different'.  Is it your position or opinion that all minorities intentionally try to be different?  And further this seems to suggest that minorities are strictly, or mostly, basing their behavior upon what others are doing, and not simply what they wish to do for themselves. 

For example, I am not a Baptist anymore.  Is it because I want to be different then the majority of my family who are still Baptists?  No, it's because I don't fuckin want to be Baptist anymore.  It's not because I want to be different from them, it's because it's what I want for me. 

We as individual, may or may not act intentionally different. However, in at least some cases, the minority is acting differently, with the express purpose of being different.

Some cases, yes.  But without them stating outright that this is the reason they are the way they are, in my opinion, it is a perilous leap of logic to assume the reason for the way they behave is based upon others and not themselves.  It would seem to me that it makes more sense that people would generally want to act and behave in a way that fulfills them and satisfisfies their wills and desires.  Again, that's just how I would tend to see it, short of an outright declaration that the intent is to be different than someone else. 

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2008, 10:05:48 pm
So... hrmmm, this is tricky without sounding racist or like an asshole.

But, if we remove the human aspect of this topic:

Here is a petri dish:
We stick in a bunch of organism A, which tends to create colonies and protect the colonies by wiping out foreign organisms.
We stick in a small bit of organism B, which appears and behaves in a radically different manner than organism A.
We stick in a small bit of organism C, which is very closely related to organism B, but behaves and appears more like organism A.

Organism A will likely wipe out organism B, but it might not wipe out organism C... depending on how well Organism C hides.

Organism A may be very much like most, but not all, majority societies.
Organism B may be very much like some subcultures, or minority cultures in a given society.
Organism C may be very much like some subcultures, or minority cultures in a given society.

Voluntarily or involuntarily organism B is notably different and thus a target of organism A.

My personal take on religious minorities (based on my personal experiences) is that, in at least some sense, they are intentionally trying to be different.

If one believes the Pentateuch; The Law, from the 10 Commandments, to circumcision, to the fringe on the bottom of the robe... were all specifically and intentionally to set the Jewish nation apart and separate from the entire world around them. The same seems true of many, but not all other religious minorities as well...

and goths
and emo
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2008, 10:09:27 pm
(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7246/emoday0vz.jpg)
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Verbal Mike on May 12, 2008, 10:11:13 pm
Here's the point, MP. You said:
I know "the Jews" aren't organized as a singular entity in any way, shape, or form, but they all identify with the same religion and moral beliefs.  If they can identify themselves as such, I can call them as such.  Can't I?  If not, how can they claim persecution (considering that you imply they don't exist)?
And yet, I do not identify with Jewish religion or morality. But Hitler would say I'm a Jew because my parents were Jews (by his definition) as were their parents etc. There is no "they". The group-entities "Nazis" and "Jews" both only exist in some senses, not in others. Both happen to have, or to have had, institutions that are/were very real and concrete. And yet both groups are sometimes applied to people on no concrete basis.
If all Jews were, as you seem to indicate, of the belief that The Jewish People are one everlasting entity, both responsible for Canaan and victim of the Holocaust, your argument might hold a tiny bit of water. But the fact is, a great many people who were killed for being Jews during the Holocaust did not believe themselves to be such. They were not killed for their beliefs, but for Hitler's beliefs.

And one last note: there are still a great many people who were members of the Nazi Party and are alive and well today. Germans seem to last incredibly long. I see people old enough to have done something every day, living in Germany. They are not all dead, nor are all the survivors. Most, indeed, but not all. Just so you know.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2008, 11:19:18 pm
German Nazis in particular seem to lead exceptionally long lives.  Compare the great German thinker Hans Morgenthau with the Nazi Jurist Carl Schmitt, for example.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 12, 2008, 11:45:56 pm
German Nazis in particular seem to lead exceptionally long lives.  Compare the great German thinker Hans Morgenthau with the Nazi Jurist Carl Schmitt, for example.

and von Münchhausen...
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Hoopla on May 13, 2008, 03:47:13 am
(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7246/emoday0vz.jpg)

SHIT - I missed it!
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2008, 04:21:56 am

Welcome to entirely missing the point.

Thanks.  Where's the bathroom?

All I'm saying is that they can't bitch about genocide without painting themselves with the same brush.  The secondary point was that genocide was acceptable to them when they were the ones doing it and that the practice still hasn't gone out of style.

There are still some Nazis left alive.

I'm pretty sure Moses' forces are all dead.

Meh.  How many living Jews were doing it?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Hoopla on May 13, 2008, 04:22:46 am
... that Wandering Joo has been around for a while...
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2008, 04:22:57 am


Look Bub, you can be as pissed off as you want, but the people who fucked over your family are dead. All of them.

Actually, no, they aren't all dead.

When the last one swings by the neck, I will agree with you.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 13, 2008, 04:23:31 am
... that Wandering Joo has been around for a while...

HAR HAR!

Yeah, and I keep waiting for The Protocols to be mentioned ITT.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 13, 2008, 05:02:51 pm
And one last note: there are still a great many people who were members of the Nazi Party and are alive and well today.

Point taken.  I was thinking of just the idiots with the gas chambers and ovens and neglected to consider the rest of them.  Like the Pope in Rome for instance.

As for the rest of it (vis a vis: Nazi death camp party van), that's largely a matter of how they selected their targets.  Obviously they're going to have their own criteria and their own reasons.  I believe the Jews saved the little virgin girls while they slaughtered all the other innocents, and I'm just as sure their criteria for "virgin" had more to do with physical attractiveness rather than an intact hymen.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on May 14, 2008, 11:03:43 am
German Nazis in particular seem to lead exceptionally long lives.  Compare the great German thinker Hans Morgenthau with the Nazi Jurist Carl Schmitt, for example.

and von Münchhausen...

The poet?

Schmitt in particular annoys me.  Because he wasn't even really a Nazi, he was a scumbag opportunist who sold his soul to work for Hitler, when it was well within his means to leave the country (like his friend Leo Strauss did).  His pre-Nazi work was aimed at preventing either a Nazi or Communist takeover by urging Von Papen and Hindenburg to activate Article 48 and round up all the dissidents, but as soon as 1933 rolled around, he sold out.

And then, he went on to live another 40 odd years and have a malign influence on US right wing politics.  Much of the legal underpinning of the War on Terror can be traced back to his writings, invoking an idea of executive emergency privilege which is allegedly necessary for the state to defend itself.  So NSA wiretaps, the suspension of haebus corpus, torture etc are partly his fault.

Meanwhile the likes of Morgenthau had to put up with being targeted by scum like Nixon (Morgenthau, ironically perhaps, was also a Jewish German who had fled the country in 1937 for the USA), and have his best ideas appropriated by blockheads like Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.  And then die relatively young.  Their lives are strangely parallel, yet opposing, which is why I like to contrast their experiences.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on May 14, 2008, 04:53:54 pm
So here is a question...

If there are still those out there (yes I KNOW we are talking radical groups) who continue with the persecution of the jews, blacks, hispanics and other races or religions.  Aren't those people still in the position of being victims?  Or does that make it an individual thing?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 14, 2008, 05:02:43 pm
German Nazis in particular seem to lead exceptionally long lives.  Compare the great German thinker Hans Morgenthau with the Nazi Jurist Carl Schmitt, for example.

and von Münchhausen...

The poet?

The Baron

He was old even before he flew on the cannonball or hung out with the Moon.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 14, 2008, 08:02:34 pm
So here is a question...

If there are still those out there (yes I KNOW we are talking radical groups) who continue with the persecution of the jews, blacks, hispanics and other races or religions.  Aren't those people still in the position of being victims?  Or does that make it an individual thing?

It doesn't work that way.  We have determined in this thread that organizations are artificial logical constructs that don't actually exist.  It's just people.  So there can't be any "radical groups" to do the persecution and there are no such things as "jews", "blacks", "hispanics" or even any races or religions.  None of them are organized in any way, so you can't refer to them in a coherent fashion.

Racism and Prejudice solved ITT
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 14, 2008, 08:17:03 pm


It doesn't work that way.  We have determined in this thread that organizations are artificial logical constructs that don't actually exist. 

No we fucking haven't.

It's just people.  So there can't be any "radical groups" to do the persecution and there are no such things as "jews", "blacks", "hispanics" or even any races or religions.  None of them are organized in any way, so you can't refer to them in a coherent fashion.

Ivory tower bullshit.  James Byrd Jr would tell you the same thing.

Racism and Prejudice solved ITT

My ass.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on May 14, 2008, 09:10:59 pm
Oops, I forgot to add [/sarcasm] at the end there.....


 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Reverend Ju Ju Booze on May 14, 2008, 11:46:17 pm
So here is a question...

If there are still those out there (yes I KNOW we are talking radical groups) who continue with the persecution of the jews, blacks, hispanics and other races or religions.  Aren't those people still in the position of being victims?  Or does that make it an individual thing?

Well, even if the aggression and the plain outspoken racism wasn't such a threath to call minorities persecuted....
Do the majority look down on 'em?Do they earn less than the average?Are they considered rude?Or unclean?Or...?
Nazi-like persecutions are still carried on by some people, but are not institutionalized.Still I think that governments and "the silent majority" have much to do...So yes,I think racials  minorities,homosexuals of course and to some degree women too are "victims".Of a "white collar" style of discrimination, of course, but still...
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Bu☆ns on August 24, 2010, 05:29:30 pm
Bump...because it appeared as a random thread on the front page and I found it very interesting because I'm currently dealing with this victim mentality from my mother (who'd have thought). 

It's like she uses a victim mentality to keep herself 'humble' but it just reinforces worry and insecurity --which seems very strange to me since it appears as an egotistical reason for being humble. 

well not to digress too much on my old lady.  I wonder if this same pattern plays out in groups. the victimhood to stay humble or moral.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: BabylonHoruv on August 25, 2010, 01:42:47 am
As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.

More to the point, if they truly were being victimized they would keep their filthy mouths shut.  Since they don't it is painfully obvious that they are no longer being oppressed, abused, persecuted, or bulldozed into mass graves.
Fuck you. Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre its enemies[citation needed] like the Israelites did the Canaanites.
Comparing that with the Holocaust isn't bigoted, it's just retarded. What you're saying is that me and my family shouldn't complain about my grandma's little brother being hauled off to Poland from his home in Germany and gassed to death, because a few hundred generations ago people with a precursor to my sister's religion and possibly some genetic material of ours conquered and massacred another people (or whatever they did.) Even if that weren't simply the thing you do after conquering someone back then - which I think it was - the comparison is stupid.
But you're just trolling me, right?

*sigh*  No, I wasn't trolling you.  However, I am reconsidering since I find your selective myopia highly amusing.

Excuse me, shitneck, but what part of "genocide" do you not fucking understand?  Are you saying it's okay because "everybody" did it?  If it's okay for the Powers That Be to carry out holocausts, then what the fuck are you complaining about?  "Everybody does it".  Just because it hadn't been done in...  I dunno, ten or twenty years, doesn't mean it isn't still a perfectly valid and legal government program.

Idiot.

10 or 20? Nah, its just that no one in the First World has pulled that shit for the past 20 years... go ask the Tutsi what they think about genocide well, those lucky enough not to be one of the 800,000 that died in 1994.

Generally they think it's something that should be done to the Hutu.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: BabylonHoruv on August 25, 2010, 01:47:16 am
Is it so difficult to believe that the majority of a nation would do something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives?

Not when I see it happening all over again. :sad:

What you are saying is roughly this: Oh it happened, and it was so horrible. No, humans would not do that without provocation. Lets dig into the past of the victims and see if they are really as blameless as the pretend to be.

People do not become victims of crimes because they where somehow "blameless" and being murdered is not some kind of retroactive canonization. I agree that the black/white view is as popular as it is tiresome but you are, in your way, buying into it too.

And finally, you are confusing layers of reality. Tempting as it is to simplify things, a nation is not just some kind of bigger individual. Just because people here find excuses to rip each other apart every now and then it does not follow that everybody who was the victim of an atrocity deserved it in some way.

To clarify: I think the Holocaust was the worst thing that any humans have ever done to other humans in recorded history. The Jews (and gays, gypsies, etc.) did nothing to deserve what happened to them. They were victimized, brutally, and we (the entire world) is still recovering from it.

Perhaps it is simplifying things too much to treat a nation as an individual, but that nation was made up of millions of individuals. Those individuals were part of families, and those families were part of communities, and those communities were part larger groups, and so on up to the level of the nation. It's not that much of a stretch to say that if something is traumatic to one person, and that if affects those around them for several generations, then something that is traumatic to millions of people will effect most of humanity for quite some time afterwards.

What I'm saying is that it happened, it was so horrible that most of us can't even comprehend what happened or why, and that there was a history of bloodshed for thousands of years before the Holocaust, that did have something to do with why it happened. I'm saying that if we wish to understand what happened, the first place to look is history, and see what happened before this. And if we want to prevent such a horrid thing from ever happening again, we'd be wise to learn our history well.

But, learning our history means seeing the bad parts. It means accepting the really nasty shit that humans have done to one another over the eons. It means that our people (whoever they may be) were not the heroes we've always thought they were. It also means that even when we've been victimized by others, we still have the choice to remain victims or rise above it. Still further, it means that we have the choice to treat someone who has been victimized as either a victim or a survivor. Victims always need help. They are assumed to be incapable of taking care of themselves, or having responsibility for their own lives. They are often treated like children, needing to be coddled and cared for, not allowed to make their own choices, or expected to do things on their own. Survivors are usually perceived as strong and capable. They are expected to continue their lives, making their own choices and only getting help if they ask for it. It's the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish.

Moreover, I believe that it is this victim mentality that has led to "the majority of a nation [doing] something as horrible as buying into the crazy rhetoric of a political party because it promised to relieve them of the responsibility for their lives". If I'm a victim, and he's a victim, and you're a victim too...then it's okay for someone else to make all the decisions to keep us safe and secure, and we don't have to worry about little things like freedom and prosperity.

The Holocaust has a lot of mythic resonance.  I would argue that what the US did to the Natives was worse, Largely because it lasted a lot longer.  If we consider the Bible as recorded history I would also say that the Jewish behavior to the Canaanites was worse, because they were wiped out completely.  That's not a matter of the Nazi intentions being less evil, just that they didn't do as good a job of it.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LuciferX on November 06, 2010, 04:53:51 am
hungry victims :oops:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Salty on November 06, 2010, 06:29:40 pm
Oh l love reading good stuff I've missed.
This is great, Cain.

It's delightfully easy to get people in a tizzy by pushing that button. That mentality gets right behind people's glands.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 06, 2012, 04:52:05 pm
As for their right to bitch and moan, fuck them.  Yeah, they got butt hurt by the Nazis.  I bet that sucked, but it's no worse than what they've done to others.  In fact, reading up on what they did to the Canaanites, what Hitler's boys did was the equivalent of a schoolyard prank.  So, no, they have no right to bitch.  Not then, not now, not ever.

More to the point, if they truly were being victimized they would keep their filthy mouths shut.  Since they don't it is painfully obvious that they are no longer being oppressed, abused, persecuted, or bulldozed into mass graves.
Fuck you. Name one nation with military supremacy that didn't massacre its enemies[citation needed] like the Israelites did the Canaanites.
Comparing that with the Holocaust isn't bigoted, it's just retarded. What you're saying is that me and my family shouldn't complain about my grandma's little brother being hauled off to Poland from his home in Germany and gassed to death, because a few hundred generations ago people with a precursor to my sister's religion and possibly some genetic material of ours conquered and massacred another people (or whatever they did.) Even if that weren't simply the thing you do after conquering someone back then - which I think it was - the comparison is stupid.
But you're just trolling me, right?

*sigh*  No, I wasn't trolling you.  However, I am reconsidering since I find your selective myopia highly amusing.

Excuse me, shitneck, but what part of "genocide" do you not fucking understand?  Are you saying it's okay because "everybody" did it?  If it's okay for the Powers That Be to carry out holocausts, then what the fuck are you complaining about?  "Everybody does it".  Just because it hadn't been done in...  I dunno, ten or twenty years, doesn't mean it isn't still a perfectly valid and legal government program.

Idiot.

Bump.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 07, 2012, 12:29:00 am
What the shit is this?  :lulz:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on March 08, 2012, 06:34:38 pm
The new de-lurked guy, arguing that some Bible story justified the Holocaust.

can't find anything else about "what the Israelites did to the Canaanites" except for the Bible (and Torah) bits--probably because the Israelites were indigenous Canaanites from the beginning (there was no Exodus).

So I suppose one local Canaan tribe murdered a bunch of others. Which is bad, but it's also over two millennia ago.


I wonder, what if someone got the insane idea to systematically kill or all Hutus--there might be people saying they had it coming for killing all those Tutsis in '94-'95. But those people would be insane and horrible people.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on March 08, 2012, 10:00:29 pm
That's not what I said at all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.  Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not.  I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same.  Apparently I was wrong.  You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime.  That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 08, 2012, 10:03:04 pm
That's not what I said at all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.

What standard are you using?  Sheer number of deaths?  Cruel practices? 
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on March 08, 2012, 10:25:43 pm
That's not what I said at all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.

What standard are you using?  Sheer number of deaths?  Cruel practices?

Total number of cultures destroyed and cruel practices.  I can't judge numbers since no one has hard facts on ancient populations.  If I remember correctly, they wiped out at least a half dozen groups of people.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 08, 2012, 10:35:20 pm
That's not what I said at all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.

What standard are you using?  Sheer number of deaths?  Cruel practices?

Total number of cultures destroyed and cruel practices.  I can't judge numbers since no one has hard facts on ancient populations.  If I remember correctly, they wiped out at least a half dozen groups of people.

Pretty sure the Nazis win on both counts.  The ancient Hebrews cleaned out Canaan and a few others that had the misfortune to be in the way, but the Nazis did a ROYAL job on several cultures, religions, etc.  And while the Hebrews just up and killed people that got in their way, they didn't fuck around with starving people while they had them move big piles of rocks back and forth.

Hell, on their Eastern front alone, the Nazis outdid the ancient Hebrews by any scorecard you care to name.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on March 08, 2012, 10:52:09 pm
That's not what I said at all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.  Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not.  I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same.  Apparently I was wrong.  You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime.  That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.

So the Jews that got murdered in WW2 belonged to the same "organisation" as the Israelites from the Bible story 2000 years ago?

An institution? A government is an institution, that you can hold responsible for something over generations, but not people who had the bad fortune of being born Jewish and living during WW2.

Also, Jews speaking about how the Holocaust was a bad thing are "bitching" about Nazis now?? bitching? really?

Can you please cite or link something on this history, because as I said before all I could find on this genocide of the Israelites invading Canaan are from the Old Testament. Nor can I understand, assuming that this did happen as described in the OT, how the Nazis weren't "nearly as bad" as that story, given the fact that the Nazis murdered about 10-100x more lives.

Ah, all those blacks, "bitching" about slavery, when those African tribes they came from were always enslaving and killing each other too! <--- makes about as much sense
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on March 09, 2012, 01:27:30 am
That's not what I said at all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.  Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not.  I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same.  Apparently I was wrong.  You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime.  That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.

So the Jews that got murdered in WW2 belonged to the same "organisation" as the Israelites from the Bible story 2000 years ago?
Your question implies that the contemporary ethnic and religious demographic which refer to themselves as "Jews" aren't part of the same ethnic and religious group that occupied the Levant roughly 2000 years ago.  Or are you questioning the noun "organization" in reference to the same?  I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to communicate.
Quote
An institution? A government is an institution, that you can hold responsible for something over generations, but not people who had the bad fortune of being born Jewish and living during WW2.
My bad.  I'm a little fuzzy on how to refer to Jews collectively in that context.  Nothing quite seems to fit, and yet they remain a distinct collective entity.  I mean, we are talking about the same group who claim the Israel as their god given property, right?  What do you call that?

Quote
Also, Jews speaking about how the Holocaust was a bad thing are "bitching" about Nazis now?? bitching? really?

Can you please cite or link something on this history, because as I said before all I could find on this genocide of the Israelites invading Canaan are from the Old Testament. Nor can I understand, assuming that this did happen as described in the OT, how the Nazis weren't "nearly as bad" as that story, given the fact that the Nazis murdered about 10-100x more lives.
sigh  A quick search turned up this:
http://www.adath-shalom.ca/commandment_genocide.htm (http://www.adath-shalom.ca/commandment_genocide.htm)

I skimmed it, but the pertinent details seem to be there.  Not sure the it includes the object lesson where god kicks their ass that one time they tried to NOT kill every fucking thing.  That was actually pretty funny, what with god being the all loving, all forgiving big sky daddy he is.

As far as who is worse goes, how do you know the Nazis murdered 10-100x as many?  Can you please link me to the population figures you used to derive that range estimate?

Aside from trying to quantify who out monkeyed the other monkeys, I think it's worthwhile to note that I have exactly as little respect for the Nazis as I do for anyone who thinks their great big imaginary friend said they get to do anything they want.  It's obscene.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Phox on March 09, 2012, 01:43:51 am
That's not what I said at all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.  Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not.  I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same.  Apparently I was wrong.  You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime.  That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.

So the Jews that got murdered in WW2 belonged to the same "organisation" as the Israelites from the Bible story 2000 years ago?
Your question implies that the contemporary ethnic and religious demographic which refer to themselves as "Jews" aren't part of the same ethnic and religious group that occupied the Levant roughly 2000 years ago.  Or are you questioning the noun "organization" in reference to the same?  I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to communicate.
Quote
An institution? A government is an institution, that you can hold responsible for something over generations, but not people who had the bad fortune of being born Jewish and living during WW2.
My bad.  I'm a little fuzzy on how to refer to Jews collectively in that context.  Nothing quite seems to fit, and yet they remain a distinct collective entity.  I mean, we are talking about the same group who claim the Israel as their god given property, right?  What do you call that?

Quote
Also, Jews speaking about how the Holocaust was a bad thing are "bitching" about Nazis now?? bitching? really?

Can you please cite or link something on this history, because as I said before all I could find on this genocide of the Israelites invading Canaan are from the Old Testament. Nor can I understand, assuming that this did happen as described in the OT, how the Nazis weren't "nearly as bad" as that story, given the fact that the Nazis murdered about 10-100x more lives.
sigh  A quick search turned up this:
http://www.adath-shalom.ca/commandment_genocide.htm (http://www.adath-shalom.ca/commandment_genocide.htm)

I skimmed it, but the pertinent details seem to be there.  Not sure the it includes the object lesson where god kicks their ass that one time they tried to NOT kill every fucking thing.  That was actually pretty funny, what with god being the all loving, all forgiving big sky daddy he is.

As far as who is worse goes, how do you know the Nazis murdered 10-100x as many?  Can you please link me to the population figures you used to derive that range estimate?

Aside from trying to quantify who out monkeyed the other monkeys, I think it's worthwhile to note that I have exactly as little respect for the Nazis as I do for anyone who thinks their great big imaginary friend said they get to do anything they want.  It's obscene.
You know what, I can totally see where you are coming from.  I think we should totally call out those Greek assholes because they got all pissy because some Turkish dude nailed some king's wife, so they went and wiped out a whole nation.  :roll:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on March 09, 2012, 02:22:34 am
You know what, I can totally see where you are coming from.  I think we should totally call out those Greek assholes because they got all pissy because some Turkish dude nailed some king's wife, so they went and wiped out a whole nation.  :roll:

Now you're thinking!  But don't stop there.  What about that fucking ape what first picked up a club and brained some poor idiot and started all this mess, eh?  Fucking chimpanzees!  Who do they think they are, anyway?

(I think the problem here is that my hatred for mankind isn't nearly focused enough.  I tend to only shoot at whatever happens to wander into my sights.)
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Phox on March 09, 2012, 02:33:13 am
Or maybe you just did what Trip asked you not to do, and cited a source that only referenced the Biblical "evidence", which, if it needs to be explained, has as much physical evidence (or less) to support it than the Iliad. To further expand, the modern-day people of Greece have about as much in common with the Argives as the modern-day Jews have in common with the Biblical Israelites.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on March 09, 2012, 03:03:16 am
I'd say the modern day Greeks have less in common.  Or have they renounced Christianity and reverted to the old gods?

However, point taken.  I'm a bit busy here at work and wasn't paying nearly as close attention as I should have.  I also stopped caring about this thread quite some time ago.  I'm only posting in it since someone resurrected it.  I understood back then what was wrong with my original assumptions.

meh
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Phox on March 09, 2012, 03:12:07 am
I'd say the modern day Greeks have less in common.  Or have they renounced Christianity and reverted to the old gods?

However, point taken.  I'm a bit busy here at work and wasn't paying nearly as close attention as I should have.  I also stopped caring about this thread quite some time ago.  I'm only posting in it since someone resurrected it.  I understood back then what was wrong with my original assumptions.

meh
Non-argument, as religions aren't static, and ~4500 years of cultural change are quite evident in the various practices of Judaism vis-a-vis the proscriptions of the texts.

If you understood then, why are you making the same lazy, and quite frankly, ill-informed arguments now?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Placid Dingo on March 09, 2012, 03:32:03 am
 TheGovernment should and (kind of) has apologised. It sends a message- we acted lile horrible assholes amd we know it was wrong. We want to move in a better dirextion now and respect your culure enough to not want to murder you all.


That's not what I said at all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.  Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not.  I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same.  Apparently I was wrong.  You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime.  That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on March 09, 2012, 02:31:58 pm
e.
Quote
An institution? A government is an institution, that you can hold responsible for something over generations, but not people who had the bad fortune of being born Jewish and living during WW2.
My bad.  I'm a little fuzzy on how to refer to Jews collectively in that context.  Nothing quite seems to fit, and yet they remain a distinct collective entity.  I mean, we are talking about the same group who claim the Israel as their god given property, right?  What do you call that?

No, we were talking about Jewish people getting killed by the millions in WW2.

Just like not all Christians believe abortion is evil and non believers will burn in hell for eternity, and just like how not all Muslims want to blow up all the infidels, not all Jews believe or believed Israel is their god given property.

The Nazis didn't care, because they were not looking at race, not religion. If you were born of a Jewish mother is what mattered, not if you shared any Jewish traditions or beliefs.

Quote
Quote
Also, Jews speaking about how the Holocaust was a bad thing are "bitching" about Nazis now?? bitching? really?

Can you please cite or link something on this history, because as I said before all I could find on this genocide of the Israelites invading Canaan are from the Old Testament. Nor can I understand, assuming that this did happen as described in the OT, how the Nazis weren't "nearly as bad" as that story, given the fact that the Nazis murdered about 10-100x more lives.
sigh  A quick search turned up this:
http://www.adath-shalom.ca/commandment_genocide.htm (http://www.adath-shalom.ca/commandment_genocide.htm)

I skimmed it, but the pertinent details seem to be there.  Not sure the it includes the object lesson where god kicks their ass that one time they tried to NOT kill every fucking thing.  That was actually pretty funny, what with god being the all loving, all forgiving big sky daddy he is.

SIGH right back at you. I told you I found the OT references, I know it's also in some long list of commandments.

What I said was I couldn't find any historical references. You know, because just because something is written in a book that is known to be less than accurate about many things, doesn't mean it actually happened for realness.

I just want to know what really happened. Not saying it didn't happen, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't whatever was told in the Bible or Old Testament--for the simple fact that the premises for the story are proven to be historically false (such as the Israelites beind indigenous to Canaan).

Quote
As far as who is worse goes, how do you know the Nazis murdered 10-100x as many?  Can you please link me to the population figures you used to derive that range estimate?

Well it starts with the fact that there simply weren't as many people around back then, 6 million would be a pretty big hit, so I decided to look into the numbers. Which is why I'm asking you for historical proof of this event, not Bible stories.

But since Bible stories was all I got, the Bible quotes there were 600k people doing the Exodus. Assuming they overpowered the Canaanites, I'm going to say there can't have been more than 600k Canaanites. That's 10x less than what the Nazis did.

Except that the Exodus never happened and the 600k number must have been completely overblown for all sorts of practical reasons of surviving in the desert and leaving behind archeological artifacts and whatnot--they assume the 600k number is some sort of germiatric (sp?) code. So maybe 10x less than that.

Overpowering and killing off 60,000 Canaanites is a pretty horrible feat, but also a lot more likely than orchestrating a genocide of Holocaust proportions in an area that probably didn't even have enough people to pull it off.

So that's how I got to a rough estimate of 10-100x.

Once you dig up some sources that are not fairytales, I'm curious to find out how close I was, given that before yesterday I hardly knew anything about it, and already now seem to understand it better than you do.

Quote
Aside from trying to quantify who out monkeyed the other monkeys, I think it's worthwhile to note that I have exactly as little respect for the Nazis as I do for anyone who thinks their great big imaginary friend said they get to do anything they want.  It's obscene.

Except of course that Nazis proved they actually were capable of those horrible things by actually doing them, and the Jews killed in WW2 were merely accused of believing such horrible things for being born Jewish regardless of belief.

In the same sense I can somewhat understand your comparison of Nazis and certain types of fundamental Christians that believe some really horrible things. But if I were that to allow me to project this horribleness onto all Christians, that'd make me a bigot.

And if I were to go even further and say 60 years after some hypothetical Christian holocaust, that those Christians had it coming because of their obscenely horrible beliefs, then I'd not only be a bigot, but I'd be as miserable an excuse for a human being as you're making yourself out to be.

(edit: quotes)
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on March 09, 2012, 02:45:14 pm
TheGovernment should and (kind of) has apologised. It sends a message- we acted lile horrible assholes amd we know it was wrong. We want to move in a better dirextion now and respect your culure enough to not want to murder you all.

And if their government doesn't apologize enough, you get to kill off all the people, and any survivors and their descendants don't get to BITCH about it.

Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 09, 2012, 04:01:30 pm
Christ, what an asshole.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 09, 2012, 04:02:19 pm
It's not even the antisemitic part that I have trouble with. It's the massive dose of STUPID.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on March 09, 2012, 04:52:16 pm
It's not even the antisemitic part that I have trouble with. It's the massive dose of STUPID.

I beg to differ.  Do you realize how hard it is to keep this shit up?  Especially with this crowd.  Hell, it took me more than a day just to remember what all this was about.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Don Coyote on March 09, 2012, 07:41:10 pm
Would it be a fair assumption to label this guy as not worth reading on account of the massive STUPID? Cuz I'm about to stuff him in the same catagory as BH and Lucifer X.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: LMNO on March 09, 2012, 07:48:40 pm
If it concerns history or IR, yeah.  He's had one or two other insights that has elevated him above a mobile carbon depot, though.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on March 09, 2012, 07:49:50 pm
It's not even the antisemitic part that I have trouble with. It's the massive dose of STUPID.

I beg to differ.  Do you realize how hard it is to keep this shit up?  Especially with this crowd.  Hell, it took me more than a day just to remember what all this was about.

Nobody's asking you to "keep this shit up", the contrary in fact. If you no longer agree with what you said years ago, man up and don't defend it.

Would it be a fair assumption to label this guy as not worth reading on account of the massive STUPID? Cuz I'm about to stuff him in the same catagory as BH and Lucifer X.

what you want. personally I put BH and Lucifer X in different categories btw. Lucifer X is just annoying when he won't take the effort to be comprehensible but just dumps a short stream-of-consciousness blurp. BH just makes me feel icky. I pledged not responding to BH, but I ignore Lucifer X only when he's being nonsensical (which is 9 times out of 10).
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 09, 2012, 09:13:46 pm
It's not even the antisemitic part that I have trouble with. It's the massive dose of STUPID.

I beg to differ.  Do you realize how hard it is to keep this shit up?  Especially with this crowd.  Hell, it took me more than a day just to remember what all this was about.

You don't get to differ with my conclusion about what bothers me.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 09, 2012, 09:14:16 pm
Would it be a fair assumption to label this guy as not worth reading on account of the massive STUPID? Cuz I'm about to stuff him in the same catagory as BH and Lucifer X.

Yep. I already put him there.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Random Probability on March 09, 2012, 09:36:12 pm
That whole thread got way out of hand.  I was rather hoping it would have just died, but when it got resurrected I got a little miffed.  Sure, I carried on like an asshat.  It was just so ridiculously easy to push those buttons, and I got more than a little carried away.

So I'll extend my apologies to everyone (except, perhaps, the fellow who dredged this whole thing up).
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 09, 2012, 09:46:27 pm
That whole thread got way out of hand.  I was rather hoping it would have just died, but when it got resurrected I got a little miffed.  Sure, I carried on like an asshat.  It was just so ridiculously easy to push those buttons, and I got more than a little carried away.

So I'll extend my apologies to everyone (except, perhaps, the fellow who dredged this whole thing up).

Necrobumping happens. The fact that you embarrassed yourself is nobody else's fault.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 09, 2012, 09:46:42 pm
I don't put him anywhere near BH.  BH is a fucking degenerate that makes my flesh crawl.  Ascii dude just says things I think are a little extreme and partisan.

Likewise, Ascii dude can at the very least express his opinion, whereas LuciferX is completely incomprehensible.

I disagree with Ascii dude, and I think he's fallen into a left wing trap - there are plenty of traps on both "sides" - but I would hardly compare him to the other two.  Hell, I'd rather put up with ten LuciferXs than one BH, for that matter.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 09, 2012, 09:48:49 pm
So I'll extend my apologies to everyone (except, perhaps, the fellow who dredged this whole thing up).

No apology would be necessary in any case.  I was doing this shit for SCIENCE, and SCIENCE needs no justification...Except, perhaps, for it's failure to deliver affordable jet packs, flying cars, and electro-sex androids with extra Spiky Bits™.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Placid Dingo on March 09, 2012, 10:20:33 pm
TheGovernment should and (kind of) has apologised. It sends a message- we acted lile horrible assholes amd we know it was wrong. We want to move in a better dirextion now and respect your culure enough to not want to murder you all.

And if their government doesn't apologize enough, you get to kill off all the people, and any survivors and their descendants don't get to BITCH about it.

That's not what I'm saying. Or is that a reference to the other guys posts?
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 10, 2012, 12:09:33 am
TheGovernment should and (kind of) has apologised. It sends a message- we acted lile horrible assholes amd we know it was wrong. We want to move in a better dirextion now and respect your culure enough to not want to murder you all.

And if their government doesn't apologize enough, you get to kill off all the people, and any survivors and their descendants don't get to BITCH about it.

That's not what I'm saying. Or is that a reference to the other guys posts?

Totally a reference to the other guy.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Cain on March 10, 2012, 01:13:34 am
The OP is pretty much flamebait anyways.
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: East Coast Hustle on March 10, 2012, 03:16:10 am
Christ, what an asshole.

I C WUT U DID THAR! :lulz:
Title: Re: Victim mentality
Post by: Triple Zero on March 10, 2012, 09:15:02 am
TheGovernment should and (kind of) has apologised. It sends a message- we acted lile horrible assholes amd we know it was wrong. We want to move in a better dirextion now and respect your culure enough to not want to murder you all.

And if their government doesn't apologize enough, you get to kill off all the people, and any survivors and their descendants don't get to BITCH about it.

That's not what I'm saying. Or is that a reference to the other guys posts?

Totally a reference to the other guy.

Indeed.