Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Two vast and trunkless legs of stone => Topic started by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:14:19 PM

Title: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:14:19 PM
Okay, for about 4 fucking months now, there's been 16-20 people on at a time, all VIEWing threads.  There's a little idle chatter here and there, but nothing else.  99% of the time, everyone is VIEWing thread after thread, each waiting for SOMEONE ELSE to add more shit.

In other words, this board has become a substitute for fucking TELEVISION.  It's supposed to be fucking INTERACTIVE.  An EXCHANGE of ideas.  But what you REALLY have is the same half-dozen people posting, and everyone else passively VIEWing.

Now, I understand that people get busy, etc, and can't always post...But 18 people, and not ONE of them is talking?  What the hell am I even DOING HERE?  It's a fucking morgue.  It's the Goddamn TV room in the home for loonies.

Well, I'm not going to be party to this, anymore.  There has to be at least ONE forum out there where people actually interact with each other.  I'll try to find that...But in the meantime, I'm not going to be responsible for enabling this bullshit.  Not kidding, here, not making a joke or inviting any clever one-liners (which I am sure will be forthcoming regardless, as the expression of the highest art people are willing to shift their arses to perform).

I can hear you now..."This is just a slow period".  SERIOUSLY?  When was the last time we had a full out WOMP fight, GASM, intermittens, anything new in the fucking BIP...Anything at all?  It's been at least four fucking months.  YOU can drown in the fucking cesspool of TV-inspired mediocrity if you want.  I'm gonna go do something else.  Lazy fucking bastards.  GET YOUR SLACK BACK OR FUCKING KILL ME.

That is all.  You may now return to VIEWing.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 19, 2011, 09:18:27 PM
Is the sad.

But also true.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: AFK on December 19, 2011, 09:31:49 PM
The dynamics of the board have changed.  I'm not sure they are always conducive to interaction and the exchange of ideas.  It's either endless mittens or a dogpile.  what's the point?  Yeah, I will fully admit, I come here for entertainment now.  It just isn't the same.  It isn't like it was when we were churning out idea after idea, sermon after sermon, rant after rant.  It's just different.  Chalk it up to different personalities, people's priorities shifting, whatever, this place just doesn't have that kind of chemistry anymore. 
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nyx on December 19, 2011, 09:37:42 PM
It seems like there are always at least as many guests on as members. Getting more of the lurkers involved could give the forum the energy it needs.

Not that I can really speak for this place, having only today joined.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 19, 2011, 09:43:27 PM
I blame the Open Bar thread. I've always thought it was a terrible idea to have one thread that would draw the majority of conversation and inevitably turn that conversation toward the banal.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:44:10 PM
Quote from: My Lady is a Cantaloupe on December 19, 2011, 09:31:49 PM
It isn't like it was when we were churning out idea after idea, sermon after sermon, rant after rant.  It's just different.  Chalk it up to different personalities, people's priorities shifting, whatever, this place just doesn't have that kind of chemistry anymore. 

Well, half of our best posters wandered off, either because they're unemployed and can't afford the internet, or because they're scrambling to keep their jobs, or just because.  When's the last time you saw Nast or Remmy or Dr James Semaj?  Richter and Payne come in about every lunar eclipse, and Cram is here but rarely posts.

The other half are either waiting for someone ELSE to post, or they're butthurt, as you say, by endless dogpiling or because PD wasn't precisely what they wanted it to be (it isn't, and has never been, for anyone, ever.  It's not supposed to be).  And not just dogpiling, but dogpiling on the same old tired-ass subjects that we've been fighting over since 2009 (drugs, libertarianism, magickkkk, etc).

What I don't understand is how you get entertainment out of what's left.  It's basically turned into the last days of the old EB&G...People posting about the minutia of their day.  Fluff is fine, but it's all we have, now.

In any case, I see no further use in pounding out rants, etc, to a void.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 19, 2011, 09:43:27 PM
I blame the Open Bar thread. I've always thought it was a terrible idea to have one thread that would draw the majority of conversation and inevitably turn that conversation toward the banal.

If I have to look at one more post about someone's plumbing, I'm gonna lose my shit.

ETA:  Kill that bastard. 
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:46:48 PM
Quote from: Nyx on December 19, 2011, 09:37:42 PM
It seems like there are always at least as many guests on as members. Getting more of the lurkers involved could give the forum the energy it needs.

Not that I can really speak for this place, having only today joined.


Most of the guests are search bots from China.

The lurkers are the regular members.   :lulz:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 19, 2011, 09:52:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 19, 2011, 09:43:27 PM
I blame the Open Bar thread. I've always thought it was a terrible idea to have one thread that would draw the majority of conversation and inevitably turn that conversation toward the banal.

If I have to look at one more post about someone's plumbing, I'm gonna lose my shit.

ETA:  Kill that bastard. 

Wait... does that mean you DON'T want me to post hourly updates about the state of my uterine fibroids?

What about when I get a UTI?

And yeah, I agree. Kill the Open Bar. If people want to post, make us start new threads so we at least have a second thought about whether it's worth our time to write and everyone else's time to read.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:55:28 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 19, 2011, 09:52:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 19, 2011, 09:43:27 PM
I blame the Open Bar thread. I've always thought it was a terrible idea to have one thread that would draw the majority of conversation and inevitably turn that conversation toward the banal.

If I have to look at one more post about someone's plumbing, I'm gonna lose my shit.

ETA:  Kill that bastard. 

Wait... does that mean you DON'T want me to post hourly updates about the state of my uterine fibroids?

What about when I get a UTI?

And yeah, I agree. Kill the Open Bar. If people want to post, make us start new threads so we at least have a second thought about whether it's worth our time to write and everyone else's time to read.

This. 

Dump that fucker off a cliff.

I really, really don't want to read about people's fucking daily lives, but there's sometimes things in the bar thread worth reading.  So you look and...NO!  It's more shit about peoples' vaginal problems or school problems or some other banal shit that makes me want to punch my monitor.

As Nigel says, let people start threads if they want to talk about their daily crawl through life.

And there's no reason for anyone to put up with that sort of shit littering threads they created for another purpose.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 19, 2011, 09:56:56 PM
Locked and unstickied. I'm'a leave it in AT instead of sending it to the SECRET MODZ FORUM in case anybody wants to go through it and save any content.

Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 09:57:53 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 19, 2011, 09:56:56 PM
Locked and unstickied. I'm'a leave it in AT instead of sending it to the SECRET MODZ FORUM in case anybody wants to go through it and save any content.



Yeah, well, the content I wrote in it is pretty generic for me.  Let 'er sink.

TO THE BOTTOM, YOU FUCKING RUSTY SCOW!  DIEEEEEEE!
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 10:00:56 PM
Now, let's see how things go.

I'm gonna think about it a bunch over the next 3-7 days, try to come up with a new concept or three, and run with it.  I'd like to see some other people do the same thing.

If it doesn't work out in the next little while - 30 days or so - then I'm gonna pack it in.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 19, 2011, 10:02:28 PM
I agree. And here's the thing; in the hands of a good writer, the most routine daily crap can be entertaining as hell. Like Da6s' Shangri-La thread... if he wasn't a good storyteller, those could be the most mundane posts ever. But they're not, they're fucking excellent and fun to read.

In the hands of an uninspired, lazy, or poor writer, the most thrilling adventures can sound banal and flat.

With the death of Open Bar, maybe when people post their stories, they will flesh them out into actual STORIES, and not just status updates about our fluid discharge. Myself included.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nyx on December 19, 2011, 10:12:19 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 10:00:56 PM
Now, let's see how things go.

I'm gonna think about it a bunch over the next 3-7 days, try to come up with a new concept or three, and run with it.  I'd like to see some other people do the same thing.

If it doesn't work out in the next little while - 30 days or so - then I'm gonna pack it in.

"new concepts" referring to rant ideas, or ways to promote the community?

I'd love to see more energy here, but the same people can only do so much. The community needs to grow to be intellectually sustainable, and I really haven't seen much activism here. Where did all the GASMs go? (Not that there were that many) How can this place grow without getting a bunch of trolls instead of new members?
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Placid Dingo on December 19, 2011, 10:16:19 PM
Quote from: My Lady is a Cantaloupe on December 19, 2011, 09:31:49 PM
The dynamics of the board have changed.  I'm not sure they are always conducive to interaction and the exchange of ideas.  It's either endless mittens or a dogpile.  what's the point?  Yeah, I will fully admit, I come here for entertainment now.  It just isn't the same.  It isn't like it was when we were churning out idea after idea, sermon after sermon, rant after rant.  It's just different.  Chalk it up to different personalities, people's priorities shifting, whatever, this place just doesn't have that kind of chemistry anymore. 


This.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Johnny on December 19, 2011, 10:18:09 PM
I dont post cause when i read a topic, the "discussion" is over and the one liners start, and after those start, no serious response seems to be acknowledged.

And on the rare occasion that i create a new thread with something i consider interesting, it just sinks with a couple dozen views, i dont know if that is a lack of interest in my interests or viewer passivity.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on December 19, 2011, 10:28:21 PM
While I hate the banal self indulgent bullshit of Open Bar as much as the next, isn't preventing a thread like that exactly the kind of thing PD has always avoided doing?

We've lost a lot of good members, and while we've gained a few it hasn't made up for many of those Roger mentioned above.

As for reaction to actual content post, Roger would know better than anyone whether or not it's changed.  I can pretty accurately say that content that I've started over the years never really took off much, whether or not it's been well received it's never really been paid any attention.  That's not a complaint, by the way, but it seems to be pretty much the same in that regard as it's always been.  Look at Sepia.  Consistently one of the best writers, and consistently one of the least given any attention - which I'm guilty of as much as anyone.

Me personally, I feel pretty disengaged from this place.  My posting habits have remained similar to what they've always been, but I can see myself glossing over most of what I read.  That would be my own thing to figure out though, not a PD problem.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 19, 2011, 10:41:33 PM
I feel like there is decreasing interest in criticism or debate, and an increase of "look at me!" and "Hey I need some validation" posts. What's the point in critiquing anything or engaging in real discussion when it all results in a nest of passive-aggressive snarking and whining? People say ridiculous things in order to get a reaction and then instead of engaging with people criticizing them or trying to improve their work, they either lash out, or they withdraw and sulk. It's like a whole generation of adult intellectual exercise has fallen out the window, and all that's left is a pile of mittens and butthurt.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 19, 2011, 10:44:45 PM
Oh, and to add... it seems like no one is interested in being challenged to break out of their prison anymore. We don't want to jailbreak; we all just want validation that our bars are OK.

Don't fucking make me examine my reality tunnel, fuckers! Dogpiling! Meanness! Other buzzwords that stand for "My viewpoint feels threatened and I don't want to have to defend it!".
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Placid Dingo on December 19, 2011, 10:52:33 PM
I think this myth of 'the real PD' and the beatdown of the noobs who don't seem to fit it is itself damaging. PD can grow in it's own way. Hanging on to a particular vision to me, seems to encourage stagnation.
h
I shouldn't have to say it but if you read this as 'be nicer to noobs', reread it.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Johnny on December 19, 2011, 10:53:56 PM
So "what do?".

Being more "civil" might work, but i guess it could be boring.

Cram sometime spoke of how drama engages people emotionally, and maybe straight out cold or civil debating does not satisfy those needs.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 19, 2011, 10:55:35 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 19, 2011, 10:52:33 PM
I think this myth of 'the real PD' and the beatdown of the noobs who don't seem to fit it is itself damaging. PD can grow in it's own way. Hanging on to a particular vision to me, seems to encourage stagnation.
h
I shouldn't have to say it but if you read this as 'be nicer to noobs', reread it.

What are you even fucking talking about? "Myth"?

It's ALREADY stagnating, so what are you suggesting be done about it?
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Scribbly on December 19, 2011, 10:58:27 PM
I try and speak up when I have something to say, and I keep my mouth shut when I have nothing to add. When I do post, it doesn't always go anywhere, but I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

If anyone has a problem with what I do post I hope they'd tell me, or rip into me in the thread. What I don't like more than anything isn't being torn a new asshole, it is being ignored. That's what makes me shut the window and work on something else.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 19, 2011, 11:01:23 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on December 19, 2011, 10:58:27 PM
I try and speak up when I have something to say, and I keep my mouth shut when I have nothing to add. When I do post, it doesn't always go anywhere, but I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

If anyone has a problem with what I do post I hope they'd tell me, or rip into me in the thread. What I don't like more than anything isn't being torn a new asshole, it is being ignored. That's what makes me shut the window and work on something else.

I think this is true of most people, to tell the truth.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2011, 11:09:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 19, 2011, 10:44:45 PM
Oh, and to add... it seems like no one is interested in being challenged to break out of their prison anymore. We don't want to jailbreak; we all just want validation that our bars are OK.

Don't fucking make me examine my reality tunnel, fuckers! Dogpiling! Meanness! Other buzzwords that stand for "My viewpoint feels threatened and I don't want to have to defend it!".

This.

We either have too much horror here, or not enough.  One or the other.  The trick is figuring out which.

And there's only one way to find out.  More later...I am in very real danger of having an idea, here.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Slurrealist on December 19, 2011, 11:15:41 PM
While reading the thread, a thought came to my mind - the "Ulysses project."
Basically, it's about encouraging people writing about everyday life, but in Joycean way - creating from boring events a fascinating, hilarious tale. And the project will be a collection of the "best" ones, or just a collection of the ones.
Maybe it will encourage people to write about daily life, but in a more creative way than the usual "what I did today" style.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 19, 2011, 11:23:43 PM
As much as I hate James Joyce, that idea has some merit.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: EK WAFFLR on December 19, 2011, 11:33:33 PM
That is actually a good Idea. Starting tomorrow night I'll try it out.

I have a character I have wanted to use for something for quite a while, so why not this?
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Cramulus on December 19, 2011, 11:56:57 PM





difference of opinion = YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD

                              ^
                       content cancer




Quote from: My Lady is a Cantaloupe on December 19, 2011, 09:31:49 PM
The dynamics of the board have changed.  I'm not sure they are always conducive to interaction and the exchange of ideas.  It's either endless mittens or a dogpile.  what's the point?  Yeah, I will fully admit, I come here for entertainment now.  It just isn't the same.  It isn't like it was when we were churning out idea after idea, sermon after sermon, rant after rant.  It's just different.  Chalk it up to different personalities, people's priorities shifting, whatever, this place just doesn't have that kind of chemistry anymore. 

Yeah,

it's not the same creative trip

I used to bash my head against the wall over it
over and over it

but it's okay, you know?

I came for the projects
I stayed cause it turns out I love you guys






Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on December 19, 2011, 11:56:57 PM





difference of opinion = YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD

                              ^
                       content cancer




Quote from: My Lady is a Cantaloupe on December 19, 2011, 09:31:49 PM
The dynamics of the board have changed.  I'm not sure they are always conducive to interaction and the exchange of ideas.  It's either endless mittens or a dogpile.  what's the point?  Yeah, I will fully admit, I come here for entertainment now.  It just isn't the same.  It isn't like it was when we were churning out idea after idea, sermon after sermon, rant after rant.  It's just different.  Chalk it up to different personalities, people's priorities shifting, whatever, this place just doesn't have that kind of chemistry anymore. 

Yeah,

it's not the same creative trip

I used to bash my head against the wall over it
over and over it

but it's okay, you know?

I came for the projects
I stayed cause it turns out I love you guys








Your projects are interesting, and usually successful.  You should do more.  Board's about bitter & ranted out1, it's time to try something new.


1  Almost.  I have one more thing to say, that's been stewing for quite some time.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:03:40 AM
Quote from: Slurrealist on December 19, 2011, 11:15:41 PM
While reading the thread, a thought came to my mind - the "Ulysses project."
Basically, it's about encouraging people writing about everyday life, but in Joycean way - creating from boring events a fascinating, hilarious tale. And the project will be a collection of the "best" ones, or just a collection of the ones.
Maybe it will encourage people to write about daily life, but in a more creative way than the usual "what I did today" style.

I would dearly love to see more of this. For a long time, most of my writing inspiration came from writing stories about my personal life and trying to make them funny... Bad date? Write a story! Tonsillectomy? Write a story! Engine on fire in the middle of one of the nation's largest national forests? Write a story!

With Open Bar, Facebook, Twitter, and similar venues practically begging for flat, factual one-line status updates, I've become lazy and unfunny. I will seek to remedy my ways. Because life, as must as it may suck, is also fucking HILARIOUS.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Juana on December 20, 2011, 12:06:52 AM
I have a couple story things I've been sitting on, hesitant to post (because well, y'all are some of the best writers I've seen and it's a little intimidating). There's one in particular I've been stuck on for a while. I'll post it and see.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: EK WAFFLR on December 20, 2011, 12:08:31 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 20, 2011, 12:06:52 AM
I have a couple story things I've been sitting on, hesitant to post (because well, y'all are some of the best writers I've seen and it's a little intimidating).

The TRUTH
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:08:44 AM
In fact, I wonder if what the board needs in general is more mirth*. We might be just about all horrored out. The tone is bitter lately, and jaded... and for good reason. I mean, look at this fucking world. But we're IN it, and now that what we've been predicting for so long is actually going down, maybe we need something else to make this an island of sanity in the sea of insanity?

I know I've had about enough of bitterness.










*Not just silliness. Funniness.

Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:13:33 AM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on December 20, 2011, 12:08:31 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 20, 2011, 12:06:52 AM
I have a couple story things I've been sitting on, hesitant to post (because well, y'all are some of the best writers I've seen and it's a little intimidating).

The TRUTH

This is a good truth, but the only way to become a better writer is to write, to be criticized, and to keep on writing.

Tip, though; if you are criticized, rather than taking it personally, brushing it off, or, worst of all, digging in and going defensive, just absorb it, say "thank you", and remember that you can always simply not use criticism that truly doesn't work for you. (And always remember Quiller-Couch's advice to "Murder your darlings"!)
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: EK WAFFLR on December 20, 2011, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:13:33 AM
This is a good truth, but the only way to become a better writer is to write, to be criticized, and to keep on writing.

Tip, though; if you are criticized, rather than taking it personally, brushing it off, or, worst of all, digging in and going defensive, just absorb it, say "thank you", and remember that you can always simply not use criticism that truly doesn't work for you. (And always remember Quiller-Couch's advice to "Murder your darlings"!)

Oh, I'm not afraid of the criticisms. I just feel like a karaoke singer in a bar filled with opera singers.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Luna on December 20, 2011, 12:17:50 AM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on December 20, 2011, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:13:33 AM
This is a good truth, but the only way to become a better writer is to write, to be criticized, and to keep on writing.

Tip, though; if you are criticized, rather than taking it personally, brushing it off, or, worst of all, digging in and going defensive, just absorb it, say "thank you", and remember that you can always simply not use criticism that truly doesn't work for you. (And always remember Quiller-Couch's advice to "Murder your darlings"!)

Oh, I'm not afraid of the criticisms. I just feel like a karaoke singer in a bar filled with opera singers.

How did opera singers get that good?

Practice. 
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Juana on December 20, 2011, 12:21:53 AM
Oh, I'm not worried about criticism. I can take it for what it is and use it. It's still totally ego related and I'm being a weeny, though, because I hate being ignored, and I've watched a fair few story threads sink without a trace. My assumption is, if no one said anything to it, is that it wasn't even worth criticizing.

edited
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM
This thread got me thinking about the criticism of organisations in The Coming Insurrection.

QuoteOrganizations are attractive due to their apparent consistency – they have a history, a head office, a name, resources, a leader, a strategy and a discourse. They are nonetheless empty structures, which, in spite of their grand origins, can never be filled. In all their affairs, at every level, these organizations are concerned above all with their own survival as organizations, and little else. Their repeated betrayals have often alienated the commitment of their own rank and file. And this is why you can, on occasion, run into worthy beings within them. But the promise of the encounter can only be realized outside the organization and, unavoidably, at odds with it.

While I wouldn't attack PD.com with quite the same criticism, I think it's important to recognise that some people aren't here to contribute to MY understanding of Discordia. For some our posters, just being a part of this community as a community rather than as a means to advance Discordianism, is their aim. The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members. If that's not what some people want out of the site, I think we need to decide whether we can tell others that they're not allowed to get that here anymore; that efforts like this one need to be understood from the perspective of the members who will reply with "oh, so I can't contribute content, I guess I'm not wanted here anymore".

Do we risk their leaving by demanding that the evolution of Discordianism become our focus and restricting their ability to chat about their day?
Would their leaving actually be helpful in increasing content?

Quote from: Cramulus on December 19, 2011, 11:56:57 PM
I stayed cause it turns out I love you guys
Not to imply that Cramulus is ONLY here to develop the community as a social community, but this post is a good example of what is keeping some people here.



Quote from: Nigel on December 19, 2011, 10:41:33 PM
What's the point in critiquing anything or engaging in real discussion when it all results in a nest of passive-aggressive snarking and whining? People say ridiculous things in order to get a reaction and then instead of engaging with people criticizing them or trying to improve their work, they either lash out, or they withdraw and sulk. It's like a whole generation of adult intellectual exercise has fallen out the window, and all that's left is a pile of mittens and butthurt.
This is a problem that, for those of us who are here to engage in real discussion, needs to be addressed. There's a lot of personal attachment to ideas, and hollering and screeching in response to people digging in and the discussion turning into a flame war.

In part, you've addressed it here:
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:13:33 AM
Tip, though; if you are criticized, rather than taking it personally, brushing it off, or, worst of all, digging in and going defensive, just absorb it, say "thank you", and remember that you can always simply not use criticism that truly doesn't work for you.

But I wonder if we need to develop better tools and methods for addressing arguments that people are too invested in without triggering their "I AM BEING ATTACKED" circuitry.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 12:27:39 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on December 19, 2011, 11:56:57 PM





difference of opinion = YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD

                              ^
                       content cancer

THIS!

Quote
Quote from: My Lady is a Cantaloupe on December 19, 2011, 09:31:49 PM
The dynamics of the board have changed.  I'm not sure they are always conducive to interaction and the exchange of ideas.  It's either endless mittens or a dogpile.  what's the point?  Yeah, I will fully admit, I come here for entertainment now.  It just isn't the same.  It isn't like it was when we were churning out idea after idea, sermon after sermon, rant after rant.  It's just different.  Chalk it up to different personalities, people's priorities shifting, whatever, this place just doesn't have that kind of chemistry anymore. 

Yeah,

it's not the same creative trip

I used to bash my head against the wall over it
over and over it

but it's okay, you know?

I came for the projects
I stayed cause it turns out I love you guys



[/quote]

Also this!  
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:31:06 AM
Quote from: Luna on December 20, 2011, 12:17:50 AM
Quote from: Waffle Iron on December 20, 2011, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:13:33 AM
This is a good truth, but the only way to become a better writer is to write, to be criticized, and to keep on writing.

Tip, though; if you are criticized, rather than taking it personally, brushing it off, or, worst of all, digging in and going defensive, just absorb it, say "thank you", and remember that you can always simply not use criticism that truly doesn't work for you. (And always remember Quiller-Couch's advice to "Murder your darlings"!)

Oh, I'm not afraid of the criticisms. I just feel like a karaoke singer in a bar filled with opera singers.

How did opera singers get that good?

Practice. 

True story. Writing, like singing, is not an innate skill, but a learned one.

My singing teacher told me than anyone can be taught to sing, as long as they believe they can be. Some people are more limited in range than others due to physical structures, but anyone can sing given enough practice and training.

Supporting anecdote: When my sisters and I were little, my mom always said that singing didn't run in our family and so it was no surprise that we couldn't sing. I always believed that I couldn't sing, but I always wanted to. When I was going through a divorce in my late twenties and under enormous stress, I started singing along to certain songs as a form of stress relief, and one day years later someone overheard me and said "You have such a pretty voice; I wish I could sing but I don't have any talent".

And I recorded myself and lo and behold, I no longer sounded terrible, and could actually stick to the tune pretty well. So I took singing lessons (from the teacher referenced above) and as a result I started singing around the house all the time. My kids grew up hearing me sing, and their logical assumption was "Mom's a singer, so we must be singers too". They didn't start out wonderful, at all, but no one ever discouraged them and when they complained about not being good they were told "Singing is a muscle; you have to exercise it". They are all wonderful singers now. Well, LO isn't yet but she's really young.

Like singing, writing, or any other art, is only about 10% innate talent, and 90% actual practice and effort.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 12:33:52 AM
I made a graph. Just because the post stats (there's a link below the main forum index) are hard to interpret as numbers, I like em visual. I hoped I could find some trend or something, but there's not very much to work with IMO:

(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/5889/pdgraph2011.png)

First, I'm not even sure if I'm looking at the right numbers that would bring out the problem. There's a slight downward trend, but on the whole, and given the variance of the whole graph, it shouldn't feel as wrong as the forum has been lately. And I do agree something feels wrong.

Thing is, these are all the new posts and threads, and if Roger's right and everybody is just fluffing, post rate won't go down, but value will. I suppose we'd see a very different picture if I'd leave out Apple Talk, for instance. Except I didn't have those stats readily available.

About the Open Bar, it can't really be the problem, we've had that thread since forever, so I don't know if removing it is going to solve anything. That said, I won't particularly miss it either.

What I really think is a core part of the problem--like others also said--is that we used to have way more awesome posters, a lot of them wandered off, and there hasn't been enough great new blood to fill that gap. Not putting blame our more recent members btw, there's just not enough of ya :)

I mean, think about it, out of 10 new members, there's 7 worthless trolls we have to deal with, 2 that might be interesting people if they'd make more than five posts and 1 that maybe sticks around and becomes a contributing member. I'm pretty damn sure this distribution used to be a lot more favourable.

One more observation about the graph: it seems that around October'10 we were doing something right. Anyone remember what it was? And the whole winter of Nov'09 to Mar'10 seems to have been a pretty solid period as well. Going further back (the numbers do, this graph doesn't) the largest peak is Jan'09-Feb'09. Yes, that was the dreaded February where all that shit personal stuff happened to a lot of people at once, which might be partially responsible for the steep decline that comes immediately after, in April-May'09. But we got back on our feet soon after that.

I dunno, if I were to guess, it's not so much the specific projects we were doing back then, as there being a relatively steady influx of cool new members that actually stuck around for some time.

.. and reading the new posts since I started writing this, I also agree with Nigel's suggestion of more mirth. Pointing out all the horrible things must of course be done, but you need to counterbalance it with laughter, or it will really get to you! That's in fact now my prime suspect for the crappy board mood, and it eats energy, you read a couple of new posts, they get you down and before you know it you're "just viewing". I know some people here actually manage to really laugh at the horrors until they can't stop screaming, and get energy from fucking with the idiots that caused it. But not everybody, even though we do manage a very convincing wry smile.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:40:16 AM
A PS. to my last post; some shitty-ass writers are SUPERB storytellers.

It can go the other way, too, though.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 12:55:20 AM
A lot of the time, I just look at the thread because I feel silly just giving mittens without contributing additional thought. And sometimes I just don't have it.

Problem is is that for a while now, I haven't really had anything interesting to add, and I seem to have trouble motivating myself to get out and do things. I don't know what it is, but it's not just here. I haven't been able to write any new songs either, aside from some really goofy one that I don't really intend to do anything with other than entertain myself. But, I don't play guitar in my spare time anymore either. The only times I play are at band practice, or at a show. And sometimes, I look at a thread and think, "ooh, I missed this one, and it looks interesting but I can't put the mental energy into it at the moment. I'll read it later." But I never get around to it.

I'm not going to be back home for a few days, but, after this weekend, I'm going to make myself respond to thoughtful threads instead of fluff threads. I'm not going to be able to pull myself out of this without making myself do something. Even if that something is not that great.

I'll also be certain to start a thoughtful thread once a week.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:04:25 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 20, 2011, 12:06:52 AM
I have a couple story things I've been sitting on, hesitant to post (because well, y'all are some of the best writers I've seen and it's a little intimidating).

You learn to write by writing.  This ain't Gold's Gym, where the new guy trying to start out has to endure 2 years of being laughed at by the muscleheads.

Barf it up.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:06:36 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM
The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members.

But FFS, they can start a blog thread, right?  I don't want to hear about peoples' rotting bits unless it's funny.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 01:15:16 AM
can we lump in the dating threads too? 
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 01:15:35 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:06:36 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM
The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members.

But FFS, they can start a blog thread, right?  I don't want to hear about peoples' rotting bits unless it's funny.
Yeah, a blog thread is a reasonables solution. Maybe even a blog thread board.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:18:46 AM
I'm kinda glad to see Open Bar die. Sometimes it's just so full of stuff that you can't really get through all of it. In the course of a 24 hour period, it might have increased by another 10 pages. At that point I often just end up posting my own facebook status instead of posting it on facebook. I think that's the case with a lot of other people too, so it ends up like a scene in Seinfeld where all four of them are at the dinner and talking to each other, but are basically just conversing with themselves.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:15:35 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:06:36 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM
The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members.

But FFS, they can start a blog thread, right?  I don't want to hear about peoples' rotting bits unless it's funny.
Yeah, a blog thread is a reasonables solution. Maybe even a blog thread board.

Hang on, thought about it.

The blog threads aren't going to get read, so the shit is going to ooze back out onto the board at large.

:x

Incidentally, I think we have TOO MANY subforums.  A few could stand to get merged.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:22:28 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on December 20, 2011, 01:18:46 AM
I'm kinda glad to see Open Bar die. Sometimes it's just so full of stuff that you can't really get through all of it. In the course of a 24 hour period, it might have increased by another 10 pages. At that point I often just end up posting my own facebook status instead of posting it on facebook. I think that's the case with a lot of other people too, so it ends up like a scene in Seinfeld where all four of them are at the dinner and talking to each other, but are basically just conversing with themselves.

It's the oldest thread on PD, but all things must come to an end.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Kai on December 20, 2011, 01:23:43 AM
One of the problems I have posting here is that I'm working under a pseudonym, coming up with content that not only interests me but I hope will interest a goodly percentage of the PD populous.

The pseudonym makes it difficult, because these days I'm less likely to write things that won't be attributed to the IRL me. I want to build a single reputation, not several disjunct ones. I've considered several times just using my professional name like I do on my blog, but I'm paranoid that will decrease my future chances of employment. If it damages my chances of eventually working in a natural history collection, I don't want to do it. It's the google factor more than anything.

At the same time, I have this professional blog. I post things on this blog, articles on taxonomy, systematics, news on natural history collections, and opinions about science and biology. Just this evening I blogged about my first publication, the backstory and reasoning behind it. And the things I post about there just wouldn't fly here. Not only that, but any reputation I gain here goes into a pseudonym, and will never be actually connected to me by anyone other than those who know me here and in IRL. It's really not rewarding for me to write extensively here about science, and I hope I don't offend anyone by saying it; it has nothing to do with lack of applaud or readership and everything to do with this disconnect between this pseudonym and my professional work. And some of the things I've posted under this pseudonym, I'd be pretty embarrassed for them to get back to me IRL. I regret them. Not the good writing, the In those days, the heartfelt cynicism and passion, but the hateful words, the stupidity, the mire and muck of my past attempts, my "break from reality", etc. The folly of being semi-anonymous and letting loose.

And finally, I have a really hard time these days coming up with things that I feel would interest you all, and not just interest me. I don't have the cynical energy to put out rants against fundamentalism or creationism like I used to. I'm really not that cynical at all these days; my life is pretty stable at the moment. The world may be off it's rocker but I'm not going to live forever despite my plans to, and I just want to enjoy my time instead of being angry. I have a supportive family, a lovely Phox, an education that no one can ever take away from me, great friends, good health, I'm a published scientist, and in all likelyhood I'll be going back to graduate school this fall. Even if I don't, I'm still in good shape.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: EK WAFFLR on December 20, 2011, 01:24:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:04:25 AM
Barf it up.

Y'all have convinced me. Expect more shite from me in the near future.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Juana on December 20, 2011, 01:26:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:04:25 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 20, 2011, 12:06:52 AM
I have a couple story things I've been sitting on, hesitant to post (because well, y'all are some of the best writers I've seen and it's a little intimidating).

You learn to write by writing.  This ain't Gold's Gym, where the new guy trying to start out has to endure 2 years of being laughed at by the muscleheads.

Barf it up.
Workin' on it. It was a story originally meant to be told in short installments and I have to smooth it out. I've posted it elsewhere with good results, but wasn't sure about here, is all.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 01:28:42 AM
If you post in Open Bar while it's quiet, too, there is very little chance of so much as a nod of acknowledgement.
At least if you hit it while it's busy, someone might quote you before sharing their problems.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
Hang on, thought about it.

The blog threads aren't going to get read, so the shit is going to ooze back out onto the board at large.

:x

Incidentally, I think we have TOO MANY subforums.  A few could stand to get merged.
If the blog threads aren't getting read, they're clearly not interesting. I'll read blog threads of the people I like.

I agree that there are too many subforums. Which ones do you think need to be merged?
Is TFY,S really for collaborative projects? It's more like a less intense OKM.
Could we slam Multimedia Menace and Bring and Brag into one media-sharing board?
ETA: Also Literate Chaotic could become part of that bigger folder.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:32:54 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:28:42 AM
If you post in Open Bar while it's quiet, too, there is very little chance of so much as a nod of acknowledgement.
At least if you hit it while it's busy, someone might quote you before sharing their problems.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
Hang on, thought about it.

The blog threads aren't going to get read, so the shit is going to ooze back out onto the board at large.

:x

Incidentally, I think we have TOO MANY subforums.  A few could stand to get merged.
If the blog threads aren't getting read, they're clearly not interesting. I'll read blog threads of the people I like.

I agree that there are too many subforums. Which ones do you think need to be merged?
Is TFY,S really for collaborative projects? It's more like a less intense OKM.
Could we slam Multimedia Menace and Bring and Brag into one media-sharing board?


I honestly don't even really get what TFYS,S is for other than Intermittens. Probably should merge that with either OKM, or with both Multimedia and Bring and Brag.

Literate Chaotic should probably be merged with OKM.

Maybe merge Principia Discussion with OMF. Or even better, make it a viewable child board.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:36:04 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on December 20, 2011, 01:32:54 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:28:42 AM
If you post in Open Bar while it's quiet, too, there is very little chance of so much as a nod of acknowledgement.
At least if you hit it while it's busy, someone might quote you before sharing their problems.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
Hang on, thought about it.

The blog threads aren't going to get read, so the shit is going to ooze back out onto the board at large.

:x

Incidentally, I think we have TOO MANY subforums.  A few could stand to get merged.
If the blog threads aren't getting read, they're clearly not interesting. I'll read blog threads of the people I like.

I agree that there are too many subforums. Which ones do you think need to be merged?
Is TFY,S really for collaborative projects? It's more like a less intense OKM.
Could we slam Multimedia Menace and Bring and Brag into one media-sharing board?


I honestly don't even really get what TFYS,S is for other than Intermittens. Probably should merge that with either OKM, or with both Multimedia and Bring and Brag.

Literate Chaotic should probably be merged with OKM.

Maybe merge Principia Discussion with OMF. Or even better, make it a viewable child board.

Horrorology should get dumped into OKM.  It's done as a self-contained project.

Literature should get dumped into principia discussion.

Politics, cooking, and and Tech should stay the way they are.  They get a lot of traffic.

The two meta boards at the bottom should be merged.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:42:28 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:36:04 AM
Quote from: Nph. Twid. on December 20, 2011, 01:32:54 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:28:42 AM
If you post in Open Bar while it's quiet, too, there is very little chance of so much as a nod of acknowledgement.
At least if you hit it while it's busy, someone might quote you before sharing their problems.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
Hang on, thought about it.

The blog threads aren't going to get read, so the shit is going to ooze back out onto the board at large.

:x

Incidentally, I think we have TOO MANY subforums.  A few could stand to get merged.
If the blog threads aren't getting read, they're clearly not interesting. I'll read blog threads of the people I like.

I agree that there are too many subforums. Which ones do you think need to be merged?
Is TFY,S really for collaborative projects? It's more like a less intense OKM.
Could we slam Multimedia Menace and Bring and Brag into one media-sharing board?


I honestly don't even really get what TFYS,S is for other than Intermittens. Probably should merge that with either OKM, or with both Multimedia and Bring and Brag.

Literate Chaotic should probably be merged with OKM.

Maybe merge Principia Discussion with OMF. Or even better, make it a viewable child board.

Horrorology should get dumped into OKM.  It's done as a self-contained project.

Literature should get dumped into principia discussion.

Politics, cooking, and and Tech should stay the way they are.  They get a lot of traffic.

The two meta boards at the bottom should be merged.

Just my opinion.

I've always enjoyed horrorology, and would like to see more traffic in there. And more original threads by people who aren't Doktor Howl. But it is your concept, so wherever you think it is fit to go is where it belongs.

Hmmm. Maybe I'll make it a point to post a few new threads in there, even though I've returned to the Nephewhood.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 01:45:58 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:15:35 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:06:36 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM
The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members.

But FFS, they can start a blog thread, right?  I don't want to hear about peoples' rotting bits unless it's funny.
Yeah, a blog thread is a reasonables solution. Maybe even a blog thread board.

Hang on, thought about it.

The blog threads aren't going to get read, so the shit is going to ooze back out onto the board at large.

:x

I don't see how that follows?

Quote
Incidentally, I think we have TOO MANY subforums.  A few could stand to get merged.

Why? How are low-traffic subforums preventing great content? I read them all anyway (though not with equal attention), to me subforums are just a useful way to categorize threads so I know where to look if I want to find them.

I agree we REALLY don't need a blog-thread subforum though, it'd be like Open Bar, except multi-threaded!


Quote from: Nph. Twid. on December 20, 2011, 01:32:54 AM
I honestly don't even really get what TFYS,S is for other than Intermittens. Probably should merge that with either OKM, or with both Multimedia and Bring and Brag.

Literate Chaotic should probably be merged with OKM.

Maybe merge Principia Discussion with OMF. Or even better, make it a viewable child board.

No no no no no and no. I strongly disagree :)

TFYS is intended for "philosophical" type discussions and ideas that are not rants. Afaik, Intermittens grew there because the first issues were partially a collection of such discussions and an exposition of our ideas. Also because it was somewhat inspired by the Black Iron Prison pamphlet, which is mostly TFYS material. In hindsight, how Intermittens ended up, it might have been better in MM.

Literate Chaotic has always been somewhat vague to me. It's got books, linguistic discussions, but also people's own story writings. Right?

And Principia Discussion is our lightning rod. It has nothing to do with O:MF, it sits there nicely at the top of our board index pretending to be a place where n00bs and Maybe Logic farts and such types can discuss the Principia, RAW and all that, so they don't do it somewhere else. And occasionally someone posts some actual interesting tidbit of Discordiania and that is also nice (such as Cram's annotated PD, the 1st Ed. PD, those kinds of things). Plus, if we try to move the pool, it'll spill and we'll never get the slimy bits out.

Merging the Meta boards sounds like a plan BTW, I'm always looking in both of them when I try to find something there.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 01:53:23 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 01:45:58 AM
TFYS is intended for "philosophical" type discussions and ideas that are not rants. Afaik, Intermittens grew there because the first issues were partially a collection of such discussions and an exposition of our ideas. Also because it was somewhat inspired by the Black Iron Prison pamphlet, which is mostly TFYS material. In hindsight, how Intermittens ended up, it might have been better in MM.

Literate Chaotic has always been somewhat vague to me. It's got books, linguistic discussions, but also people's own story writings. Right?

And Principia Discussion is our lightning rod. It has nothing to do with O:MF, it sits there nicely at the top of our board index pretending to be a place where n00bs and Maybe Logic farts and such types can discuss the Principia, RAW and all that, so they don't do it somewhere else. And occasionally someone posts some actual interesting tidbit of Discordiania and that is also nice (such as Cram's annotated PD, the 1st Ed. PD, those kinds of things). Plus, if we try to move the pool, it'll spill and we'll never get the slimy bits out.

Merging the Meta boards sounds like a plan BTW, I'm always looking in both of them when I try to find something there.
TYFS, I think, needs a description which says that, then. Doesn't seem clear to me.

Do you think that Literate Chaotic, Bring and Brag and Multimedia Menace could sort of be put together? Seems like there are things in each of them which belongs in the others. Podcast stuff in Bring and Brag, discussion of the Black Mirror TV series in Literate Chaotic.

I agree about Principia Discussion. O:MF could probably go inside it, but there's no reason to do so.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 20, 2011, 02:26:09 AM
I hesitate to put my two cents in but I've been around for a while and as one who really doesn't post anymore I can say this. 

It's a combination of what has already been mentioned.  The extreme personal information in the Open Bar, the criticism and the lack thereof to take it or give it with any grace or maturity (I include myself in this), the shit flinging, the feeding frenzies that extend from new people to those who have been members for a few years or more, the general lack of respect for each other.

I lurk.  I'm a "VIEWER". I stopped truly participating a long time ago.  I've watched others leave or their participation dribble down to nothing.  Most after yet another confrontation where it can't be kept to the topic but it becomes personal and it carries thru to other threads and you get to the point that you're just "fuck it, this is supposed to be fun". If it isn't fun, then why bother when the same thing is going to happen again?

And you rethink every single post to see where it can get torn to shreds because it becomes the norm, not the every once in a while. 

I don't know, just my thoughts..... 
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Phox on December 20, 2011, 02:26:57 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 01:45:58 AM
No no no no no and no. I strongly disagree :)

TFYS is intended for "philosophical" type discussions and ideas that are not rants. Afaik, Intermittens grew there because the first issues were partially a collection of such discussions and an exposition of our ideas. Also because it was somewhat inspired by the Black Iron Prison pamphlet, which is mostly TFYS material. In hindsight, how Intermittens ended up, it might have been better in MM.

Literate Chaotic has always been somewhat vague to me. It's got books, linguistic discussions, but also people's own story writings. Right?

And Principia Discussion is our lightning rod. It has nothing to do with O:MF, it sits there nicely at the top of our board index pretending to be a place where n00bs and Maybe Logic farts and such types can discuss the Principia, RAW and all that, so they don't do it somewhere else. And occasionally someone posts some actual interesting tidbit of Discordiania and that is also nice (such as Cram's annotated PD, the 1st Ed. PD, those kinds of things). Plus, if we try to move the pool, it'll spill and we'll never get the slimy bits out.

Merging the Meta boards sounds like a plan BTW, I'm always looking in both of them when I try to find something there.
What about merging Bring and Brag with Literate Chaotic and/or Multimedia Menace? The three of them seem, to me at least, to serve largely the same function, though perhaps merely merging them as child boards? They always struck me as vaguely defined and heavily overlapping.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Pæs on December 20, 2011, 02:34:24 AM
Quote from: Khara on December 20, 2011, 02:26:09 AM
And you rethink every single post to see where it can get torn to shreds because it becomes the norm, not the every once in a while. 
This isn't a bad thing, except where you have to consider whether you are going to be personally attacked over it.
Sometimes this is a chance to consider why you think you are being attacked, other times it's actually a sign that people are jumping on you unreasonably.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 02:58:33 AM
Villager and roommates commandeered laptop for youtube purposes. Will rejoin tomorrow.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: LMNO on December 20, 2011, 04:52:18 AM
It's late, and I've had wine, but I can't believe that I'm the only one who's noticed this: in the five or six years of posting here, and despite the petty interfaith shit flinging we do on a regular basis, there is this.

We have reached consensus.

Our little tribe has done a LOT of talking, and we've changed our minds quite a bit. TOWARDS each other.

Our core ideals and outlook are, at their heart, aligned. We've stripped away the outer biases, and now we only fight over our inner ones.

Who's going to argue over TGRRs prophecy? Cain's insights? Cram's IRL plots? Kai's science?  ECH's cooking?

We transformed from a bunch of strangers figuring things out into a group of friends, relating our daily struggles.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nyx on December 20, 2011, 06:06:19 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 20, 2011, 04:52:18 AM
It's late, and I've had wine, but I can't believe that I'm the only one who's noticed this: in the five or six years of posting here, and despite the petty interfaith shit flinging we do on a regular basis, there is this.

We have reached consensus.

Our little tribe has done a LOT of talking, and we've changed our minds quite a bit. TOWARDS each other.

Our core ideals and outlook are, at their heart, aligned. We've stripped away the outer biases, and now we only fight over our inner ones.

Who's going to argue over TGRRs prophecy? Cain's insights? Cram's IRL plots? Kai's science?  ECH's cooking?

We transformed from a bunch of strangers figuring things out into a group of friends, relating our daily struggles.

I don't really know how to say this without it sounding sort of insistent, but:
Wouldn't this be the time to compile all of these core ideals and observations into another Principa-level document? A sort of "progress report"? Maybe?
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 07:12:54 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:15:35 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:06:36 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM
The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members.

But FFS, they can start a blog thread, right?  I don't want to hear about peoples' rotting bits unless it's funny.
Yeah, a blog thread is a reasonables solution. Maybe even a blog thread board.

Hang on, thought about it.

The blog threads aren't going to get read, so the shit is going to ooze back out onto the board at large.

:x

Incidentally, I think we have TOO MANY subforums.  A few could stand to get merged.

People WILL write about their personal lives. People WILL share fluff. And that's fine. The only issue I have with Open Bar is that people aren't even trying to be funny or interesting anymore, and I am not excluding myself from this "people".

Killing Open Bar for a while at least raises the bar; want to start a thread about your stuff? Automatically, the act of starting a thread creates incentive to get people to respond by making it interesting, funny, descriptive, have a point and a punchline. It's ALREADY working; I haven't seen new posts across so many topics in AGES.

I like the shift from "Hey guys my cooch is itchy" to "AN ITCHY COOCH: MY EPIC TALE OF DISCOMFORT AND HOW I FOUND A POWDER TO RESOLVE IT"

because the first is a boring telly one-liner, and the second is equally TMI but is an attempt to tell a story that might entertain, educate or amuse.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 07:15:44 AM
Quote from: Nyx on December 20, 2011, 06:06:19 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 20, 2011, 04:52:18 AM
It's late, and I've had wine, but I can't believe that I'm the only one who's noticed this: in the five or six years of posting here, and despite the petty interfaith shit flinging we do on a regular basis, there is this.

We have reached consensus.

Our little tribe has done a LOT of talking, and we've changed our minds quite a bit. TOWARDS each other.

Our core ideals and outlook are, at their heart, aligned. We've stripped away the outer biases, and now we only fight over our inner ones.

Who's going to argue over TGRRs prophecy? Cain's insights? Cram's IRL plots? Kai's science?  ECH's cooking?

We transformed from a bunch of strangers figuring things out into a group of friends, relating our daily struggles.

I don't really know how to say this without it sounding sort of insistent, but:
Wouldn't this be the time to compile all of these core ideals and observations into another Principa-level document? A sort of "progress report"? Maybe?


Hey.

Maybe it's time for this.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Freeky on December 20, 2011, 07:28:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 07:12:54 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:21:56 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:15:35 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 01:06:36 AM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM
The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members.

But FFS, they can start a blog thread, right?  I don't want to hear about peoples' rotting bits unless it's funny.
Yeah, a blog thread is a reasonables solution. Maybe even a blog thread board.

Hang on, thought about it.

The blog threads aren't going to get read, so the shit is going to ooze back out onto the board at large.

:x

Incidentally, I think we have TOO MANY subforums.  A few could stand to get merged.

People WILL write about their personal lives. People WILL share fluff. And that's fine. The only issue I have with Open Bar is that people aren't even trying to be funny or interesting anymore, and I am not excluding myself from this "people".

Killing Open Bar for a while at least raises the bar; want to start a thread about your stuff? Automatically, the act of starting a thread creates incentive to get people to respond by making it interesting, funny, descriptive, have a point and a punchline. It's ALREADY working; I haven't seen new posts across so many topics in AGES.

I like the shift from "Hey guys my cooch is itchy" to "AN ITCHY COOCH: MY EPIC TALE OF DISCOMFORT AND HOW I FOUND A POWDER TO RESOLVE IT"

because the first is a boring telly one-liner, and the second is equally TMI but is an attempt to tell a story that might entertain, educate or amuse.

I still wouldn't read it, but you've made the point.  :lol:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:00:12 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 07:15:44 AM
Quote from: Nyx on December 20, 2011, 06:06:19 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 20, 2011, 04:52:18 AM
It's late, and I've had wine, but I can't believe that I'm the only one who's noticed this: in the five or six years of posting here, and despite the petty interfaith shit flinging we do on a regular basis, there is this.

We have reached consensus.

Our little tribe has done a LOT of talking, and we've changed our minds quite a bit. TOWARDS each other.

Our core ideals and outlook are, at their heart, aligned. We've stripped away the outer biases, and now we only fight over our inner ones.

Who's going to argue over TGRRs prophecy? Cain's insights? Cram's IRL plots? Kai's science?  ECH's cooking?

We transformed from a bunch of strangers figuring things out into a group of friends, relating our daily struggles.

I don't really know how to say this without it sounding sort of insistent, but:
Wouldn't this be the time to compile all of these core ideals and observations into another Principa-level document? A sort of "progress report"? Maybe?


Hey.

Maybe it's time for this.

I like this idea.

It also makes me a little nervous that I won't have anything of value to contribute.

Which of course means that I definitely should.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: AFK on December 20, 2011, 01:22:25 PM
Quote from: Khara on December 20, 2011, 02:26:09 AM
I hesitate to put my two cents in but I've been around for a while and as one who really doesn't post anymore I can say this. 

It's a combination of what has already been mentioned.  The extreme personal information in the Open Bar, the criticism and the lack thereof to take it or give it with any grace or maturity (I include myself in this), the shit flinging, the feeding frenzies that extend from new people to those who have been members for a few years or more, the general lack of respect for each other.

I lurk.  I'm a "VIEWER". I stopped truly participating a long time ago.  I've watched others leave or their participation dribble down to nothing.  Most after yet another confrontation where it can't be kept to the topic but it becomes personal and it carries thru to other threads and you get to the point that you're just "fuck it, this is supposed to be fun". If it isn't fun, then why bother when the same thing is going to happen again?

And you rethink every single post to see where it can get torn to shreds because it becomes the norm, not the every once in a while. 

I don't know, just my thoughts..... 

I concur. 
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Luna on December 20, 2011, 01:29:39 PM
Quote from: Nyx on December 20, 2011, 06:06:19 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 20, 2011, 04:52:18 AM
It's late, and I've had wine, but I can't believe that I'm the only one who's noticed this: in the five or six years of posting here, and despite the petty interfaith shit flinging we do on a regular basis, there is this.

We have reached consensus.

Our little tribe has done a LOT of talking, and we've changed our minds quite a bit. TOWARDS each other.

Our core ideals and outlook are, at their heart, aligned. We've stripped away the outer biases, and now we only fight over our inner ones.

Who's going to argue over TGRRs prophecy? Cain's insights? Cram's IRL plots? Kai's science?  ECH's cooking?

We transformed from a bunch of strangers figuring things out into a group of friends, relating our daily struggles.

I don't really know how to say this without it sounding sort of insistent, but:
Wouldn't this be the time to compile all of these core ideals and observations into another Principa-level document? A sort of "progress report"? Maybe?


I like this idea.  (And, hi, Nyx, I don't think we've met.)

It has also sparked another idea...

What do y'all think of a project tentatively called, "Who Are We?"  This is off the top of my head, suggestions are welcome.

I'll collect pieces we write about each other.  No hit pieces, but not just gushing, tell me how you see somebody.  Several somebodies.  Make them funny, make them interesting, make them real, make them up.  Email them to me (one spag per email), I'll try my hand at editing them together, pick the best few I get for each poster.

Also to include, send me your best "Who are we?" bits.  (I love those, but will only use the ones you send, since that'd be permission... and search is borked, and they happen in random places.

Essays about the place in general.  What is peedee.com?  Tell me about shit here.  Tell me about douchenozzle n00bs.  Tell me about how we make you think, how we make you feel.

Default will be no author names, unless requested.  Don't ask me "who wrote that?"  I ain't saying, but if somebody recognizes your writing style, it ain't my fault.

If someone does not want pieces about them included, I will respect that, of course, just drop me an email.  If y'all prefer, I can run the finished "this is what I have on you" by people before it goes up for an, "oh, god, no."

Pics.  Artwork.  WOMPs.

What do you think?  Format will probably be a webpage, unless somebody wants to hold my hand through making something paper out of it.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 01:39:09 PM
Quote from: Luna on December 20, 2011, 01:29:39 PM
Quote from: Nyx on December 20, 2011, 06:06:19 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 20, 2011, 04:52:18 AM
It's late, and I've had wine, but I can't believe that I'm the only one who's noticed this: in the five or six years of posting here, and despite the petty interfaith shit flinging we do on a regular basis, there is this.

We have reached consensus.

Our little tribe has done a LOT of talking, and we've changed our minds quite a bit. TOWARDS each other.

Our core ideals and outlook are, at their heart, aligned. We've stripped away the outer biases, and now we only fight over our inner ones.

Who's going to argue over TGRRs prophecy? Cain's insights? Cram's IRL plots? Kai's science?  ECH's cooking?

We transformed from a bunch of strangers figuring things out into a group of friends, relating our daily struggles.

I don't really know how to say this without it sounding sort of insistent, but:
Wouldn't this be the time to compile all of these core ideals and observations into another Principa-level document? A sort of "progress report"? Maybe?


I like this idea.  (And, hi, Nyx, I don't think we've met.)

It has also sparked another idea...

What do y'all think of a project tentatively called, "Who Are We?"  This is off the top of my head, suggestions are welcome.

I'll collect pieces we write about each other.  No hit pieces, but not just gushing, tell me how you see somebody.  Several somebodies.  Make them funny, make them interesting, make them real, make them up.  Email them to me (one spag per email), I'll try my hand at editing them together, pick the best few I get for each poster.

Also to include, send me your best "Who are we?" bits.  (I love those, but will only use the ones you send, since that'd be permission... and search is borked, and they happen in random places.

Essays about the place in general.  What is peedee.com?  Tell me about shit here.  Tell me about douchenozzle n00bs.  Tell me about how we make you think, how we make you feel.

Default will be no author names, unless requested.  Don't ask me "who wrote that?"  I ain't saying, but if somebody recognizes your writing style, it ain't my fault.

If someone does not want pieces about them included, I will respect that, of course, just drop me an email.  If y'all prefer, I can run the finished "this is what I have on you" by people before it goes up for an, "oh, god, no."

Pics.  Artwork.  WOMPs.

What do you think?  Format will probably be a webpage, unless somebody wants to hold my hand through making something paper out of it.

Hmm. I'll see what I have floating around in my head.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:53:23 AM
TYFS, I think, needs a description which says that, then. Doesn't seem clear to me.

Completely agree. We used to have reasonably descriptive subforum descriptions, but then we started changing some, and then we changed them some more. And right now most of them are complete nonsense that only give a hint of what the forum is about if you already know what's being hinted at.

- For instance there is currently nothing that identifies Apple Talk as a general discussion subforum.
- I have no idea what the description of Aneristic Illusions even means, let alone telling me it is a politics subforum.
- Literate Chaotic's description is so non-descriptive, that nobody remembers what it was even intended for.
- The description of Think For Yourself Schmuck! should mention "discussion of new ideas" first and the collaborative projects that happened to birth from them only as an afterthought. It's all about novelty and developing ideas, the BIP, Origin of the Lie, Shrapnel and more. It should probably start with Cram's (?) quote "Did you know that most people only have three original thoughts per week?" and then "Discuss new ideas to see if they catch fire." I don't even think it needs to mention Intermittens (since that technically belongs in another subforum), and maybe not even the BIP either (especially not abbreviated like that--remember, the descriptions are there foremost for n00bs) because "discuss the BIP"? What's there to talk about except for how awesome it is, or how it is too dark/negative? It is not really an active project anymore (well except for the Spanish translation right now) and if people have something to say about it, they will bring it up.
- Operation: Mindfuck needs improvement too. Now it basically says "discuss here if you want to DO something about it", while not strictly wrong, it is way too general. It should at least mention pranks and jakes. Pranks, jakes, trolls, mindfucks, shenanigans and misinformation campaigns. ("trolls" might draw unwanted attention from (trolled) people that just got past the postcount-barrier, though)
- The other descriptions at least describe what sort of content is supposed to go there. Principia Discussion's could elaborate a bit more, maybe.


QuoteDo you think that Literate Chaotic, Bring and Brag and Multimedia Menace could sort of be put together? Seems like there are things in each of them which belongs in the others. Podcast stuff in Bring and Brag, discussion of the Black Mirror TV series in Literate Chaotic.

yeah maybe. this is how I thought they were differentiated:

Literate Chaotic: books, reading, linguistics and writing projects
Bring & Brag: any sort of creative product you want to show off that is not directly Discordia-related (Literate Chaotic's writing projects should go here)
Multimedia Menace: used to be "Propaganda Depository" for flyers posters and pamphlets. Then got expanded to include other Discordian media such as video and podcasts and was renamed. I think it should be renamed back to "Propaganda Repository/Depository" (because it explains the purpose better) with the description specifying this includes "Flyers, posters, pamphlets, podcasts, videos, etc."

QuoteI agree about Principia Discussion. O:MF could probably go inside it, but there's no reason to do so.

No. I generally prefer to avoid child subforums, especially for important ones like O:MF. The problem is that people often forget them, when posting new threads.

Speaking of, RPG Ghetto is under Multimedia Menace. I like how this board became more than just RPG talk, but also has discussions about gaming theory, game development and DIY/indie gaming. Under Multimedia Menace is maybe a weird place (especially after we rename it to "Propaganda Deprository"), but I don't see any other place where it could go either :)
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 03:01:50 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 01:53:23 AM
TYFS, I think, needs a description which says that, then. Doesn't seem clear to me.

Completely agree. We used to have reasonably descriptive subforum descriptions, but then we started changing some, and then we changed them some more. And right now most of them are complete nonsense that only give a hint of what the forum is about if you already know what's being hinted at.

- For instance there is currently nothing that identifies Apple Talk as a general discussion subforum.
- I have no idea what the description of Aneristic Illusions even means, let alone telling me it is a politics subforum.
- Literate Chaotic's description is so non-descriptive, that nobody remembers what it was even intended for.
- The description of Think For Yourself Schmuck! should mention "discussion of new ideas" first and the collaborative projects that happened to birth from them only as an afterthought. It's all about novelty and developing ideas, the BIP, Origin of the Lie, Shrapnel and more. It should probably start with Cram's (?) quote "Did you know that most people only have three original thoughts per week?" and then "Discuss new ideas to see if they catch fire." I don't even think it needs to mention Intermittens (since that technically belongs in another subforum), and maybe not even the BIP either (especially not abbreviated like that--remember, the descriptions are there foremost for n00bs) because "discuss the BIP"? What's there to talk about except for how awesome it is, or how it is too dark/negative? It is not really an active project anymore (well except for the Spanish translation right now) and if people have something to say about it, they will bring it up.
- Operation: Mindfuck needs improvement too. Now it basically says "discuss here if you want to DO something about it", while not strictly wrong, it is way too general. It should at least mention pranks and jakes. Pranks, jakes, trolls, mindfucks, shenanigans and misinformation campaigns. ("trolls" might draw unwanted attention from (trolled) people that just got past the postcount-barrier, though)
- The other descriptions at least describe what sort of content is supposed to go there. Principia Discussion's could elaborate a bit more, maybe.


QuoteDo you think that Literate Chaotic, Bring and Brag and Multimedia Menace could sort of be put together? Seems like there are things in each of them which belongs in the others. Podcast stuff in Bring and Brag, discussion of the Black Mirror TV series in Literate Chaotic.

yeah maybe. this is how I thought they were differentiated:

Literate Chaotic: books, reading, linguistics and writing projects
Bring & Brag: any sort of creative product you want to show off that is not directly Discordia-related (Literate Chaotic's writing projects should go here)
Multimedia Menace: used to be "Propaganda Depository" for flyers posters and pamphlets. Then got expanded to include other Discordian media such as video and podcasts and was renamed. I think it should be renamed back to "Propaganda Repository/Depository" (because it explains the purpose better) with the description specifying this includes "Flyers, posters, pamphlets, podcasts, videos, etc."

QuoteI agree about Principia Discussion. O:MF could probably go inside it, but there's no reason to do so.

No. I generally prefer to avoid child subforums, especially for important ones like O:MF. The problem is that people often forget them, when posting new threads.

Speaking of, RPG Ghetto is under Multimedia Menace. I like how this board became more than just RPG talk, but also has discussions about gaming theory, game development and DIY/indie gaming. Under Multimedia Menace is maybe a weird place (especially after we rename it to "Propaganda Deprository"), but I don't see any other place where it could go either :)

Changing the descriptions to clarify their purpose would be pretty helpful. If you've been here a while, you know what AI is about, and what AT is about, regardless of the description, but some of the other ones have always been pretty vague to me which is probably why I don't really post in them often, if at all. ANd I think that's part of the reason why a lot of good stuff goes into Apple Talk that should go elsewhere. People aren't sure where it would fit, and it might not get read if it's not in Apple Talk anyway.

Principia Discussion's description is kinda discouraging. And while I like the idea of a Pinealist magnet to try and keep them busy in there, even with them it doesn't get a lot of traffic. If it is supposed to be a philosophy forum, it should certainly say that, and not just be limited to classic Discordianism.

I'm still having trouble seeing how that sets it apart from TFYS,S.

Literate Chaotic's description also invites languish. It pretty much tells you it's pointless to look there or post there.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 03:18:25 PM
I would like to see Literate Chaotic's description revised to be not only a place to discuss literature, but also a place to post writings, because right now they end up in Apple Talk, Or Kill Me, or Bring & Brag.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 03:26:35 PM
*checks* hm, seems I do have admin-ability to change the board descriptions. For some reason I thought that was just ECH. Except I need to do some stuff now and then some more stuff, maybe I can get back to it tomorrow morning, or otherwise Thursday.

But I'll do a few of them right now.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 03:53:13 PM
... and then I actually did most of them. How do you like?

I kinda want to make Recipes, Techmology and Bring&Brag a bit more matter-of-fact now as well, even though they're fairly obvious and descriptive. IMVHO strange jokes/very colourful writing in the subforum descriptions goes stale pretty quickly (and has the already mentioned danger of making a subforum lose its focus especially to n00bs)
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 04:10:16 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 03:53:13 PM
... and then I actually did most of them. How do you like?

I kinda want to make Recipes, Techmology and Bring&Brag a bit more matter-of-fact now as well, even though they're fairly obvious and descriptive. IMVHO strange jokes/very colourful writing in the subforum descriptions goes stale pretty quickly (and has the already mentioned danger of making a subforum lose its focus especially to n00bs)

I like them, they're more straightforward now.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:12:13 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 03:53:13 PM
... and then I actually did most of them. How do you like?

I kinda want to make Recipes, Techmology and Bring&Brag a bit more matter-of-fact now as well, even though they're fairly obvious and descriptive. IMVHO strange jokes/very colourful writing in the subforum descriptions goes stale pretty quickly (and has the already mentioned danger of making a subforum lose its focus especially to n00bs)

I like it; nice clear descriptions for people who are new to the joint.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:12:34 PM
(but still with bits of humor)
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 04:50:38 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:12:34 PM
(but still with bits of humor)

Thanks :)

Though looking at it, the only bit of humour I added was the "no crazies" bit, and I took that straight from Roger's Online Dating Advice thread :lulz:

(hope you don't mind, Roger, it seemed like just the right thing that it really needed)

also, who knows, having that at the top of the forum might actually ward of the crazies (yeah right) :lol:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 05:19:32 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 04:50:38 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 04:12:34 PM
(but still with bits of humor)

Thanks :)

Though looking at it, the only bit of humour I added was the "no crazies" bit, and I took that straight from Roger's Online Dating Advice thread :lulz:

(hope you don't mind, Roger, it seemed like just the right thing that it really needed)

also, who knows, having that at the top of the forum might actually ward of the crazies (yeah right) :lol:

I think the problem is the crazies don't know they're crazy. C'est la vie.

Anyway, I'm forming a couple of rant ideas at the moment, but it might be a couple of days before I can get them going.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 20, 2011, 05:24:13 PM
I'm not gonna be in a position to contribute to this discussion until I get home a few days from now but I just wanted to say that there are alot of awesome ideas flying around in here and that I completely approve of the subforum description changes. So thanks to Trip and to all of the rest of you who are letting the creative construction juices flow.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 20, 2011, 06:19:11 PM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 20, 2011, 05:24:13 PMI completely approve of the subforum description changes.

Ah good cause I believe you wrote the previous ones. But I figured I wasn't destroying anything of great literary value ;-)

I'll change the last few later on, as well.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 20, 2011, 06:30:52 PM
The problem, Trip, is that while the occasional fit of snark or pique inspires me to write them, there's nothing to inspire me to change them back once the snark or pique has run its course. :lulz:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: BabylonHoruv on December 20, 2011, 07:11:36 PM
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 20, 2011, 12:26:30 AM
This thread got me thinking about the criticism of organisations in The Coming Insurrection.

QuoteOrganizations are attractive due to their apparent consistency – they have a history, a head office, a name, resources, a leader, a strategy and a discourse. They are nonetheless empty structures, which, in spite of their grand origins, can never be filled. In all their affairs, at every level, these organizations are concerned above all with their own survival as organizations, and little else. Their repeated betrayals have often alienated the commitment of their own rank and file. And this is why you can, on occasion, run into worthy beings within them. But the promise of the encounter can only be realized outside the organization and, unavoidably, at odds with it.

While I wouldn't attack PD.com with quite the same criticism, I think it's important to recognise that some people aren't here to contribute to MY understanding of Discordia. For some our posters, just being a part of this community as a community rather than as a means to advance Discordianism, is their aim. The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members. If that's not what some people want out of the site, I think we need to decide whether we can tell others that they're not allowed to get that here anymore; that efforts like this one need to be understood from the perspective of the members who will reply with "oh, so I can't contribute content, I guess I'm not wanted here anymore".

Do we risk their leaving by demanding that the evolution of Discordianism become our focus and restricting their ability to chat about their day?
Would their leaving actually be helpful in increasing content?

Quote from: Cramulus on December 19, 2011, 11:56:57 PM
I stayed cause it turns out I love you guys
Not to imply that Cramulus is ONLY here to develop the community as a social community, but this post is a good example of what is keeping some people here.



Quote from: Nigel on December 19, 2011, 10:41:33 PM
What's the point in critiquing anything or engaging in real discussion when it all results in a nest of passive-aggressive snarking and whining? People say ridiculous things in order to get a reaction and then instead of engaging with people criticizing them or trying to improve their work, they either lash out, or they withdraw and sulk. It's like a whole generation of adult intellectual exercise has fallen out the window, and all that's left is a pile of mittens and butthurt.
This is a problem that, for those of us who are here to engage in real discussion, needs to be addressed. There's a lot of personal attachment to ideas, and hollering and screeching in response to people digging in and the discussion turning into a flame war.

In part, you've addressed it here:
Quote from: Nigel on December 20, 2011, 12:13:33 AM
Tip, though; if you are criticized, rather than taking it personally, brushing it off, or, worst of all, digging in and going defensive, just absorb it, say "thank you", and remember that you can always simply not use criticism that truly doesn't work for you.

But I wonder if we need to develop better tools and methods for addressing arguments that people are too invested in without triggering their "I AM BEING ATTACKED" circuitry.

I don't think anyone is advocating for barring people from simple socialization.  Taking down the open bar thread doesn't mean people can't post the random crap from their lives, it just means they have to actually make threads to do so.

If someone is going to go to the trouble of making a thread they are much more likely to also go to the trouble of making their random crap interesting in some way.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 20, 2011, 07:20:18 PM
^
Proof that even a snuff-porn loving clock with no social skills is right once.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 20, 2011, 07:28:59 PM
Incidentally, I've noticed that Roger's "this board is not living up to my expectations" threads are another one of those - pretty much guaranteed to devolve into snark and namecalling - topics.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 07:29:36 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on December 20, 2011, 07:28:59 PM
Incidentally, I've noticed that Roger's "this board is not living up to my expectations" threads are another one of those - pretty much guaranteed to devolve into snark and namecalling - topics.

I never saw a buzzsaw I didn't want to stick my peter in.   :lulz:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on December 20, 2011, 07:31:10 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 07:29:36 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on December 20, 2011, 07:28:59 PM
Incidentally, I've noticed that Roger's "this board is not living up to my expectations" threads are another one of those - pretty much guaranteed to devolve into snark and namecalling - topics.

I never saw a buzzsaw I didn't want to stick my peter in.   :lulz:

You gotta be you, mate. I love ya for it. Doesn't stop me worrying about your blood pressure from time to time.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on December 20, 2011, 07:31:38 PM
:lulz:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Placid Dingo on December 21, 2011, 12:15:52 PM
Saying 'the myth', I'm talking about the idea of 'a real PD' as though there's one way PD should be.

Awesome ideas itt and it was awesome to come back to this forum and see the changes.

Luna and Slurrealist's ideas are exciting.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Luna on December 21, 2011, 12:23:05 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 21, 2011, 12:15:52 PM
Saying 'the myth', I'm talking about the idea of 'a real PD' as though there's one way PD should be.

Awesome ideas itt and it was awesome to come back to this forum and see the changes.

Luna and Slurrealist's ideas are exciting.

Thanks, Dingo.  I'm planning to copy my idea out into its own thread tonight and see if there's enough actual interest from people willing to write to do it.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Placid Dingo on December 21, 2011, 12:37:46 PM
Also, if the Principia Discordia forum is the lightening rod shouldn't it be viewable to guests?
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: AFK on December 21, 2011, 01:03:37 PM
Yes, it definitely should.  I understand wanting to hide O:MF from guests.

But it doesn't make any sense to hide the PD subforum from guests. 

If one of our goals is to draw new people, that runs counter to that goal. 

I mean, this domain is going to turn up pretty high up when people do a search for the PD. 

If they then click on the forum and see all kinds of subfora, except, for one devoted to PD, there is a good chance they move on.

Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Faust on December 21, 2011, 01:27:11 PM
Wait what? Holy shit that is hidden to guests. Fixing now.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: LMNO on December 21, 2011, 01:30:17 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 21, 2011, 01:27:11 PM
Wait what? Holy shit that is hidden to guests.

:lol:

I thought you guys had done it on purpose for some reason, otherwise I would have mentioned it months ago.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Faust on December 21, 2011, 02:07:13 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 21, 2011, 01:30:17 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 21, 2011, 01:27:11 PM
Wait what? Holy shit that is hidden to guests.

:lol:

I thought you guys had done it on purpose for some reason, otherwise I would have mentioned it months ago.
That would imply structure or planning. Someone might have done it on purpose but I can't recall what that purpose was or even if I ever knew it was hidden to guests.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Telarus on December 22, 2011, 06:39:51 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2011, 07:29:36 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on December 20, 2011, 07:28:59 PM
Incidentally, I've noticed that Roger's "this board is not living up to my expectations" threads are another one of those - pretty much guaranteed to devolve into snark and namecalling - topics.

I never saw a buzzsaw I didn't want to stick my peter in.   :lulz:

Yeah, but those thread (legitimately) threaten a certain Narrative that we have. "Squawks" (a RAW term, deal with it) are what you get from a community when you threaten the Narrative.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=27933.0

The function of the Squawks are to make enough noise that eventually the people involved in the Put On become aware that there are parts of reality which this Reality Tunnel doesn't cover, and that they have to revise the Reality Tunnel.



I think the recent threads have actually gotten to the point that the participants have recognized that the current Narrative needs to be threatened. And are getting creative about how to re-form it. I'm looking forward to participating in projects again, based on some of the energy in these threads.

Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 22, 2011, 03:49:44 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 21, 2011, 02:07:13 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 21, 2011, 01:30:17 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 21, 2011, 01:27:11 PM
Wait what? Holy shit that is hidden to guests.

:lol:

I thought you guys had done it on purpose for some reason, otherwise I would have mentioned it months ago.
That would imply structure or planning. Someone might have done it on purpose but I can't recall what that purpose was or even if I ever knew it was hidden to guests.

Me neither.

But I guess that explains all the recent infighting and quibbling among our ranks, the "in" crowd, the ones that did get invited to the poolparty at the peak of forum ... guess who got snubbed? again? :fnord:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 22, 2011, 05:09:45 PM
Many of us have not read much/any RAW so explaining things with dictionary words without deferral to an author might be more useful.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 22, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 22, 2011, 05:09:45 PM
Many of us have not read much/any RAW so explaining things with dictionary words without deferral to an author might be more useful.

You mean for the subforum description?

If you got any suggestions I'll be glad to incorporate them. I wrote it that way because I figured the people that'd want to specifically talk about that stuff probably do know the names.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Phox on December 22, 2011, 09:36:22 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 22, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 22, 2011, 05:09:45 PM
Many of us have not read much/any RAW so explaining things with dictionary words without deferral to an author might be more useful.

You mean for the subforum description?

If you got any suggestions I'll be glad to incorporate them. I wrote it that way because I figured the people that'd want to specifically talk about that stuff probably do know the names.
I think she was referring to Telarus' post above yours, Trip. I think the subforum descriptions are fine as is.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 23, 2011, 01:06:12 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 22, 2011, 09:36:22 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 22, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 22, 2011, 05:09:45 PM
Many of us have not read much/any RAW so explaining things with dictionary words without deferral to an author might be more useful.

You mean for the subforum description?

If you got any suggestions I'll be glad to incorporate them. I wrote it that way because I figured the people that'd want to specifically talk about that stuff probably do know the names.
I think she was referring to Telarus' post above yours, Trip. I think the subforum descriptions are fine as is.

Yeah, the descriptions are great as-is! I meant that I don't know what Telarus is talking about but it sounds interesting enough that I would not mind hearing about it in non-RAW-specific lingo.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 04:44:09 AM
I'll let you know as soon as I have it ;0

Still need to digest that DVD a couple more times.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 23, 2011, 04:49:38 AM
Quote from: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 04:44:09 AM
I'll let you know as soon as I have it ;0

Still need to digest that DVD a couple more times.

Awesome!
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 07:01:37 AM
Yeah, I've been thinking about that (very esoteric) bit of intro RAW did for that video. So many levels of meaning, hes worse than bloody Crowley.


Best I can tell, it includes a "System-description". With almost mathematical variables (this serves as the draw with Peter Carrol's Chaos Magick work, I think too).

But (the problem is) RAW uses a James-Joyce based abstraction, where he's got non-verbal symbols as the variables, and he slots cute phrases in so that the abstraction now becomes an "I-made-a-funny"(ala TMNT), but keeps the metaphor appropriate to the context he's found himself in. (An essential skill of an Illuminatus Primii/Zen Master.)

It's really hard to meta-talk about this stuff without inventing or using jargon. I shall do my best to limit that.


I was once at a Kate Rusby concert (good celtic punk fiddler from ireland), and before ordaining her a Pope-ess after the show* her guitarist had interrupted quite a good solo and walked up to the mic to insert a Koan into the moment of silence.

*(She was impressed, & I think the 'every man woman, child' concept kinda startled her being that "Who's the Pope" is a source of actual violence over there.)


"Do fish drink...... water?"

Do fish...    drink it? No. Saying so would be an improper use of language.

Imagining a fish drinking a glass of water is an exercise in surreality (more on this later). So, No.

They are immersed in it.

If they had language, would they even have a word for it other than "space"?




THAT's what RAW was interested in.

The Narrative that a group of people is Immersed In, in the moment.

We all carry Narrative around with us, but we are constantly take in bits of others during our daily lives. And there are situations where the individual Narratives are similar enough that every can be said to be "in" the same (fuzzy) Reality Tunnel (defined as the collection/system of grids you use to filter and react to sensory input).

I read an article on Thirtyseven's Skilluminati site. It called out the concept of "Consensus Trance" (http://www.skilluminati.com/research/entry/charles_tart_on_consensus_trance_and_normal_human_consciousness/).

That is:
1) There exists a Meta-Narrative, full of conflicting signals and signal-chains (snippets of Narratives). This exists because we live in Culture, spread by Language.

2) Certain parts of the audience find certain sets of signals very attractive (for various reasons). This can be an associative force, the Hodge, or a dissociative force, the Podge (i.e. it can draw you towards, or repel you from another person based on the signals you receive from them, and how those signals get interpreted into Narrative by your Reality Tunnel).

That's it, at the top level. What happens to the Narrative (& the group of people, our "audience/performer-system" as a result of the changes in the Narrative) would be the next thing to describe....so comes Discord, Bureaucracy and Aftermath International Relations.... (Damnit, fell back on the jargon... well, like I said, I need to watch the DVD a few more times).

But, at some point, the Reality Tunnel (the system of grids/filters, yes?) cannot accurately predict what bullshit Reality might pull next [or, to get sinister, some Faction is guiding the Narrative so that they can profit off the prediction-system failing for some people].

If this occurs, and the people addicted to the Narrative still cling to it and claim that it's Truth value shall not be questioned... well, then pour this Mako a double of Rum and Coke... oh, and I'll have some ice-water as a chaser.

(We have then encoded a Surreality into our Culture... it's there, and will be reacted to AS IF REAL by a certain percentage of the population.)


The system RAW is trying to describe includes feedback mechanisms, and I think he accurately thought that those are the leverage points you need to influence to effect the current Narrative.

.
.
.

Now take the above, and call it "A System that happens anywhere you have (A group of Hominids + Culture)." How can we leverage this knowledge?

Let me know how much of the above helped, vs how much of it didn't.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 07:19:50 AM
Watching it, this these jumped out at me as simple every day language.


"The Self is a social game for which one person at a time takes the blame."


"Everything we know, or think we know, is a function of how well our brain (or the systems/'circuits' in our brain) are operating."


"The purpose of The Stupid is to force The Intelligent to become even more intelligent."

Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Pæs on December 23, 2011, 07:24:45 AM
I think almost all of that helped. I can't pinpoint anything that didn't.
Thanks, Telarus!
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 23, 2011, 06:36:21 PM
Interesting... and all very familiar somehow.

I have to take a moment to pick apart the fish exercise though. I feel like maybe I am missing something crucial and just don't get it.

We are immersed in air, yet we breathe it.

Fish, like other creatures, are mostly water; they do have to absorb it. Some absorb it through their skin and gills, and some drink it.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 07:13:45 PM
There's some interesting posts on that, over the web. Here's what I keep running in to:

http://www.upendedblog.com/2011/10/25/obvious-questions-in-science-how-do-fish-drink/

Short form: Freshwater fish absorb water through their skin. Saltwater fish absorb water through the digestive tract (while ridding excess salt via the gills). Has to do with salt-concentrations in the body and osmosis. Interesting, eh?

Here's the Etymology of "to Drink":

Quotedrink (v.) Look up drink at Dictionary.com
    O.E. drincan "to drink," also "to swallow up, engulf" (class III strong verb; past tense dranc, pp. druncen), from P.Gmc. *drengkan (cf. O.S. drinkan, O.Fris. drinka, Du. drinken, O.H.G. trinkan, Ger. trinken, O.N. drekka, Goth. drigkan "to drink"), of uncertain origin, perhaps from a root meaning "to draw." Not found outside Germanic. Most I.E. words for this trace to PIE *po(i)- (cf. Gk. pino, L. biber, Ir. ibim, O.C.S. piti, Rus. pit'; see imbibe). The noun meaning "beverage, alcoholic beverage" was in late O.E.

        The noun, AS. drinc, would normally have given southern drinch (cf. drench), but has been influenced by the verb. [Weekley]

    To drink like a fish is first recorded 1747.

Because words carry around all their connotations until we place them into Context to narrow their meaning, I think it's the "to Engulf" portion that causes the cognitive dissonance. How can a fish engulf water, when the water already engulfs the fish?

Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 23, 2011, 07:33:32 PM
Quote from: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 07:13:45 PM
There's some interesting posts on that, over the web. Here's what I keep running in to:

http://www.upendedblog.com/2011/10/25/obvious-questions-in-science-how-do-fish-drink/

Short form: Freshwater fish absorb water through their skin. Saltwater fish absorb water through the digestive tract (while ridding excess salt via the gills). Has to do with salt-concentrations in the body and osmosis. Interesting, eh?

Here's the Etymology of "to Drink":

Quotedrink (v.) Look up drink at Dictionary.com
    O.E. drincan "to drink," also "to swallow up, engulf" (class III strong verb; past tense dranc, pp. druncen), from P.Gmc. *drengkan (cf. O.S. drinkan, O.Fris. drinka, Du. drinken, O.H.G. trinkan, Ger. trinken, O.N. drekka, Goth. drigkan "to drink"), of uncertain origin, perhaps from a root meaning "to draw." Not found outside Germanic. Most I.E. words for this trace to PIE *po(i)- (cf. Gk. pino, L. biber, Ir. ibim, O.C.S. piti, Rus. pit'; see imbibe). The noun meaning "beverage, alcoholic beverage" was in late O.E.

        The noun, AS. drinc, would normally have given southern drinch (cf. drench), but has been influenced by the verb. [Weekley]

    To drink like a fish is first recorded 1747.

Because words carry around all their connotations until we place them into Context to narrow their meaning, I think it's the "to Engulf" portion that causes the cognitive dissonance. How can a fish engulf water, when the water already engulfs the fish?



By swallowing it.

That seems as silly as asking how we can take air into our lungs when we are surrounded by air.

Do you swim? You can be underwater and not swallowing water. Also, when you swim vigorously you need to drink a quart of water an hour to replace water lost through sweating. It's easy to become dehydrated while swimming.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 08:38:00 PM
Well, the metaphor works for fresh-water fish.  :)

And you have a point. But we have very little language that accurately describes "swallowing-while-being-swallowed-by"... except breath. Which is why most mystic systems which have the "Chi/Praya" variable (and other Strangeness which may have practical value) tend to use both Breath and Water metaphors to try to get to an attempted description.


We have a similar situation with Language. It's hard for a majority of domesticated primates to tell if there's a bad filter in their personal reality tunnel, or if there's a bad filter in the Narrative which they've aligned with (and defend via tribal response). Part of learning how to do that is to spend some time in non-verbal consciousness (brain activity between 10.5 and 7.5 Hz).

I'm pretty sure you have practice with that state, Nigel, from how I've seen you describe working the Glass. It's a transitory state from my experience, it comes and goes, but there are definitely moments of "being in the Zone" to use a sports analogy.

RAW makes a joke that the first time you consciously recognize it (i.e. have language to describe it as a nonverbal state) you immediately ruin in by thinking "WOW, Look what I just did! I achieved non-verbal consciousness!".

This sea of Signal that we find ourselves in can be treacherous, and superstitions abound on each of our little boats.

Here's some good language from an article (http://www.cantrip.org/charles_tart.html) on Tart's "Consensus Trance":

QuoteConsensus trance induction -- the process of learning the "normal waking" state of mind -- is involuntary, and occurs under conditions that give it far more power than ordinary hypnotists are ever allowed. When infants are first subjected to the processes that induce consensus trance, they are all vulnerable and dependent upon their consensus hypnotists, for their parents are the ones who initiate them into the rules of their culture, according to the instructions that had been impressed upon them by their own parents, teachers, and peers.

Among the techniques prohibited to ethical hypnotists but wielded effectively in the induction of consensus trance are: the enormous amount of time devoted to the induction (years to a lifetime), the use of physical force, emotional force, love and validation, guilt, and the instinctive trust children have for their parents. As they learn myriad versions of 'the right way to do things' -- and the things not to do -- from their parents, children build and continue to maintain a mental model of the world, a filter on their reality lens that they learn to perceive everything through (except partially in dreams). The result leaves most people in an automatized daze. "It is a fundamental mistake of man's to think that he is alive, when he has merely fallen asleep in life's waiting room," is the way Idries Shah, a contemporary exponent of ancient Middle Eastern mystical psychologies, put it.

If humans are indeed on the verge of realizing that we are caught in illusions while thinking we are perceiving reality, how do we propose to escape? The answer, Tart has concluded, could come in the form of "mindfulness training " -- a variety of exercises for elevating awareness by deliberately paying closer-than-usual attention to the mundane details of everyday life. Gurdjieff called it "self-remembering," and many flavors of psychotherapist, East and West, use it. Mindfulness is a skill that can be honed by the right approach to what is happening right in front of you: "Be here now" as internal gymnastics. Working, eating, waiting for a traffic light to change can furnish opportunities for mindfulness. Observe what you are feeling, thinking, perceiving, don't get hung up on judging it, just pay attention. Tart thinks this kind of self-observation -- noticing the automatization -- is the first step toward waking up.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 23, 2011, 11:17:45 PM
Yes, as an artist I do a great deal of nonverbal thinking. My friend and former employee calls that glassworking zone "beadhead", which is of course nonverbal, but that's different from general nonverbal thinking. I tend to think mostly in images and concepts more than in words, which I tend to use for making lists and telling stories. I used to argue with my ex-husband about this because he believed that all thinking is verbal and that you can't have thought without words.

For instance, when you posted that about the fish I didn't reason through the A+B of whether fish drink water, I just thought the feeling of being underwater and swallowing water. Then I looked it up to see if fish do that.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Ari on December 24, 2011, 07:54:15 AM
Howdy PD, I'm not dead and finally got my own internet uplink again. No more shaky wifi from across the yard. =)
Every now and then i lurked around but meatspace had to take priority in the past year or two. I kinda went back to the drawing board regarding my selves and did a lot of growing through trial and error, doing crazy and necessary things, that whole life thing... Again Discordia and the shrapnel which i have picked up here and/or through a variety of books (Carroll included, who i grew rather fond of i must admit) seemed to have allowed me to grow very efficiently. I'm quite happy with the results.
Mostly i found the joy of doing, for lack of better words. I finally got my ass up and left the computer screen to DO something with my life. A small business allows me to survive within the machine without ending up in some shitass cubicle. It's been a good ride. I loved and lost, died and rose, but the sun within prevailed.
But enough of this.

Re: OP/most of this thread
I should dare to post again. The Joys of Planeswalking one & two need some revision and the third chapter exists only as a draft, time to finish that and present some of my other writing to you folks. English is my second language, but i read and think so much in it, it barely shows, especially in Germany. But i feel my writing to be missing something, so barfing it up i shall and enjoy/endure the feedback.  =)
There are other projects I got involved in too. Some aiming to DO something about the state of our society, some purely creative. I still put out flyers and leave stickers in places. And some, well the KYFMS rule still applies.

Cram, LMNO -- I love the Chao Te Ching and as soon as i have funds available i will place my order for the paperback version.

~Planeswalker
still crazy, just more refined, maybe
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 24, 2011, 12:33:12 PM
Heyyy Planeswalker! Glad to hear you're doing well! Where in Germany do you live now, roughly?
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Ari on December 24, 2011, 01:28:27 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 24, 2011, 12:33:12 PM
Heyyy Planeswalker! Glad to hear you're doing well! Where in Germany do you live now, roughly?
Still up north, in Flensburg, right at the border to Denmark.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 24, 2011, 01:32:38 PM
Right. I knew that. :)
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 24, 2011, 03:59:47 PM
Quote from: Planeswalker on December 24, 2011, 01:28:27 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 24, 2011, 12:33:12 PM
Heyyy Planeswalker! Glad to hear you're doing well! Where in Germany do you live now, roughly?
Still up north, in Flensburg, right at the border to Denmark.

Do they call it Flensburg because they did a lot of flensing there?
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Ari on December 25, 2011, 01:25:59 PM
I had to look that up.
And no, no excessive and/or widespread flensing happening here.
There's a fun, old tale of an danish knight named Fleno though, who founded this town. Legend has it he had so much flensost (ost pronounced "uust", swedish for cheese, flens-ost being dickcheese) that he could build an entire "borg" (castle) from it. The Danes are kinky like that.

They recently unearthed some old sea fortifications, meaning that there must have been a viking settlement here even before Haithabu (a place further south that got the label of oldest and most important viking settlement around this area). Makes me even happier to sail and row a traditional longboat. ^^
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Cramulus on December 28, 2011, 03:14:37 PM
Quote from: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 07:01:37 AM
"Do fish drink...... water?"

just wanted to shoot you a thanks for turning me on to this koan. It's a great way of illustrating how language cramps thought.



I was at a party last night, and people were passing around Trivial Pursuit cards, asking each other questions.

I squinted at a card and asked my cabalmate this question. "Do fish drink water?"

His eyes glassed over. The dude was almost on Jeopardy, he's a trivia maniac, and I could SEE the gears in his brain grinding as he tried to figure out the accurate answer to this question. Do fish drink water? He mouthed it silently a few times, then just smiled, shaking his head.


(http://achievements.schrankmonster.de/Achievement.aspx?text=Thought%20stopped.)
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Triple Zero on December 28, 2011, 03:33:48 PM
Couldn't he just have made a decision matrix?
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Cramulus on December 28, 2011, 03:43:36 PM
 :lol: different cabalmate

Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Freeky on December 28, 2011, 05:47:52 PM
Quotedickcheese

I am not sure how I feel about this word.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Faust on December 28, 2011, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 28, 2011, 05:47:52 PM
Quotedickcheese

I am not sure how I feel about this word.
Stupid word used by people who haven't the self confidence to swear properly.

See also:
fucktard,
asshat
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Freeky on December 28, 2011, 06:07:34 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 28, 2011, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 28, 2011, 05:47:52 PM
Quotedickcheese

I am not sure how I feel about this word.
Stupid word used by people who haven't the self confidence to swear properly.

See also:
fucktard,
asshat

Ahh.  It makes sense now. :lol:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: EK WAFFLR on December 28, 2011, 08:09:06 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 28, 2011, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: Science me, babby on December 28, 2011, 05:47:52 PM
Quotedickcheese

I am not sure how I feel about this word.
Stupid word used by people who haven't the self confidence to swear properly.

See also:
fucktard,
asshat

These, however are great curse words:

Quote"for the love of mike!" – "zounds!" – "for pete's sake!" – "gadzooks!" – "for crying out loud!" – "criminetles!" – "leaping lizards!" – "pish! tosh!" – "hell's bells!" – "suffering succotash!" – "cheese and crackers...(got all muddy!)" – "land's sakes!" – "me oh my!" – "well, blow me down!" – "what the hey!" – "son of a gun!" – "hail columbia!" – "well, i swan! " – "son of a bee hive!" – "swear to god!" – "hot dog!" – "gol dang it!" – "i'll be buttered!" – "gosh darn it!" – "what in blue blazes!" – "dag nab it!" – "what the sam hill!" – "doggone it!" – "what the deuce!" – "i'll be doggoned!" – "dog my cats!" – "jiminy crickets!" – "good grief!" – "shoot!" – "holy cow!" – "fiddlesticks!" – "by golly!" – "i'll be a monkey's uncle!" – "gripes!" – "egads!" – "jeez!" – "you're full of prunes!" – "by golly!" – "none of your beeswax!" – "by gum!" – "for criminy sakes!" – "by jupiter!" – "shucks!" – "omigosh!" – "what the (heck!)" – "excuse my dust!" – "don't stop now!" – "by heck!" – "this'll kill ya!" – "you don't say!" – "oh, fudge!" – "good grief!" – "h-e-double toothpicks!" – "good heavens!" – "land sakes!" – "go to blazes!" – "sakes alive!" – "heavens to betsy!" – "well, i'll be!" – "jumping jehosephat!" – "great scott!" – "lord love a duck!" – "great balls of fire!" – "holy moley!" – "glorioski!" – "saints preserve us!" – "land o goshen!" – "good gravy!" – "tarnation!" – "consarn – "shiver me timbers!" – "yumping yimminy!" – "oy, veh iz mir!" – "if dat don't take de cake!" – "shut my mouth!" – "yikes!" – "mama mia!" – "the cat's pajamas!" – "the monkey's instep!" – "s.o.b!" – "son of a sea cook!" – "son of a biscuit!" – "pshaw!" – "bushwa!" – "zut alors!" – "aw, nertz!" – "oh, nuts!" – "golly!" – "golly gee!" – "holy moses!" – "by jove!" – "gosh almighty!" – "goodness gracious!" – "good gravy!" – "by george!" – "great guns!" – "holy cats!" – "confound it!" – "gee whillikers!" – "gee whiz!" – "godfrey daniel!" – "cut it out...you're – killin' me!" – "good heavens!" – "holy smoke!" – "by cracky!" – "my stars!" – "judas priest!" – "bless my soul!" – "upon my word!" – "the cat's meow!" – "jiminy christmas!" – "blimey!" – "honest injun!" – "caramba!" – "i'll be a dirty – so and so!" – "i'll be darned!" – "how d'ye like that!" – "whadda ya know about that!" – "gimme a break!" – "hang it all!" – "ain't it the truth!" – "shadrack, mesach, and a billy goat!" – "three cheers & a tiger!" – "aw, figs!" – "fan my brow!" – "tan my hide!" – "great day in the morning!" – "glory be!" – "holy mackerel!" – "heavenly days!" – "stuff and nonsense!" – "my aching back!" – "for pity's sakes!" – "whadda ya gonna do!" – "that's telling 'em – "well, strike me pink!" – "you don't say!" – "sez you!" – "so's your old man!" – "your mudder wears army shoes!" – "go chase yourself!"
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Freeky on December 28, 2011, 08:20:15 PM
As an addition to that list,  "Your brother chews bubble gum!"
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Eater of Clowns on December 28, 2011, 08:44:08 PM
Gadzooks is a great one.

I just found out it was considered significant blasphemy because it derived from God's hooks, or the nails that put Jesus on the cross.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Juana on December 28, 2011, 09:17:59 PM
I totally use "for Pete's sake!", "good grief", and "golly" (except it sounds like "gol-LEE") all the time. :lol: I am unrepentant.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on December 28, 2011, 10:28:15 PM
I am very bad, I curse like a drunken sailor...   :oops:

My son, who is watching over my shoulder says.....  "Yeah, you say fuck way too much"!!

Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 29, 2011, 12:33:18 AM
I also, uhh....curse like a drunken sailor. As one might expect.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Freeky on December 29, 2011, 12:35:51 AM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 29, 2011, 12:33:18 AM
I also, uhh....curse like a drunken sailor. As one might expect.

No!   :lulz:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Juana on December 29, 2011, 12:42:15 AM
I never would have guessed.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Telarus on December 29, 2011, 01:38:34 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on December 28, 2011, 03:14:37 PM
Quote from: Telarus on December 23, 2011, 07:01:37 AM
"Do fish drink...... water?"

just wanted to shoot you a thanks for turning me on to this koan. It's a great way of illustrating how language cramps thought.



I was at a party last night, and people were passing around Trivial Pursuit cards, asking each other questions.

I squinted at a card and asked my cabalmate this question. "Do fish drink water?"

His eyes glassed over. The dude was almost on Jeopardy, he's a trivia maniac, and I could SEE the gears in his brain grinding as he tried to figure out the accurate answer to this question. Do fish drink water? He mouthed it silently a few times, then just smiled, shaking his head.


(http://achievements.schrankmonster.de/Achievement.aspx?text=Thought%20stopped.)


:lulz: Excellent.
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Don Coyote on December 29, 2011, 03:28:49 AM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 29, 2011, 12:33:18 AM
I also, uhh....curse like a drunken sailor. As one might expect.
You have shattered the last of my childhood illusions. :cry:
Title: Re: No more sermons, no more rants.
Post by: Luna on December 29, 2011, 01:42:52 PM
Quote from: Pope Pastor Wolf-Something-Or-Other on December 29, 2011, 03:28:49 AM
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 29, 2011, 12:33:18 AM
I also, uhh....curse like a drunken sailor. As one might expect.
You have shattered the last of my childhood illusions. :cry:
Nope, I got this.

The Easter Bunny does not poop jelly beans.

(Fred, however, does.  She saves them all year for delivery on that one day.  The ones from the candy stores the rest of the year are from the... apprentices (slaves) chained in her basement.)