"Dr. Wegner said he thought that exposing free will as an illusion would have little effect on people's lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.
'It's an illusion, but it's a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back,' he said, comparing it to a magician's trick that has been seen again and again. 'Even though you know it's a trick, you get fooled every time. The feelings just don't go away.'"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/science/02free.html?em&ex=1167973200&en=30114785d6264b5f&ei=5087%0A
No troll.
QuoteThat is hardly a new thought. The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said, as Einstein paraphrased it, that “a human can very well do what he wants, but cannot will what he wants.”
Einstein, among others, found that a comforting idea. “This knowledge of the non-freedom of the will protects me from losing my good humor and taking much too seriously myself and my fellow humans as acting and judging individuals,” he said.
I think I have to think about that one for a while...
I think it maybe best to try to think of a situation to scrutinize
I don't think the writers chocolate menu example is very good
The Einstein paraphrase of Schopenhauer stood out to me too...throwing in the morality with the inability to enact free will is also interesting.
If it were neccessary, we wouldn't be able to believe it doesn't exist.
Or find out. It isn't so crushing as you might think to resign yourself to fate.
You're still the same afterwards as you were before, and still just as important.
I always tied in the lack of free will with determinism, which when taken with only that one idea, can be a bummer. It would mean you're never in real control, and the idea of control that you once had, was bullshit.
But then again, it does mean that your actions have true consequence, and you do contribute to this Universe and crazy human comedy in a much more real way. If we could all act outside of cause-effect, we would all be Gods with the ability to askew and rend the achievements of other from time and space.
It can't exist, and that isn't so disturbing.
It seems that the terms are being used loosely.
Being able to do as you will within the confines of what is physically possible to do might be more accurate.
And then, the conditioning and imprints of this domesticated primate life would have to be overcome, as well.
Which makes it highly improbable to have completely free will. Not to mention, anyone who did have completely free will would probably be locked up by society.
"A bevy of experiments in recent years suggest that the conscious mind is like a monkey riding a tiger of subconscious decisions and actions in progress, frantically making up stories about being in control."
:lol:
Actually, that does sound about right.
Quote from: Netaungrot on January 04, 2007, 03:09:58 AM
"Dr. Wegner said he thought that exposing free will as an illusion would have little effect on people,Äôs lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.
Heh, I think most people wouldn't even bother reading this article. And I can see many starting then just giving up and flipping to Garfield.
It is an interesting read though. I really liked the discussion of Hitler and evil.
“The greatest gift which humanity has received is free choice. It is true that we are limited in our use of free choice. But the little free choice we have is such a great gift and is potentially worth so much that for this itself, life is worthwhile living.”
thats actually a worthy ending
i still dislike his chocolate cake situation
If one doesn't have free will, then free will is irrelevant.
What is relevant, is that one still has choices.
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on January 04, 2007, 02:26:19 PM
,ÄúThe greatest gift which humanity has received is free choice. It is true that we are limited in our use of free choice. But the little free choice we have is such a great gift and is potentially worth so much that for this itself, life is worthwhile living.,Äù
thats actually a worthy ending
i still dislike his chocolate cake situation
Yeah, it didn't fit...but then, I think his context of free will differs from the one here in the BIP. The rest of his text was mish-mashed and jumbled, but interesting stuff (I found the article didn't flow so well), like the tip of the iceberg phenomenon.
I agree, the article wasn't terribly well put together. But the subject matter (free will vs determinism) has interested / bugged me for years.
The melioration principle is a property of animal behavior. It basically says that an organism will engage in a behavior until there are greater rewards for engaging in a different behavior. To me, this crystalizes the whole issue. Animal behavior is incredibly predictable when you look at it in terms of rewards. People are just trying to maximize their rewards.
So my take on all this is that the only real way to demonstrate independence from this principle, (aka free will) is to do something that you honestly don't want to do, something that won't give you a good reward. Are you getting a better reward for defying the system than you were for trying to live within its confines? Is that defiance in itself just a function of the melioration principle?
I mean, all that squishy human stuff (choices, emotions, brain chemistry, etc) is just a product of basic physical systems and governed by basic physical laws. You can't escape it!
sorry to ramble, this is one of those topics that I get really frustrated about.
So far, best post you've made to date, Prof.
I see it not as making choices that won't give you a reward, but as making a choice that goes against the easy reward.
Human physiology seems to gravitate towards immediate gratification, so an excercise of free will would seem to be a rejection of the immediate for the long-term.
Maybe.
Would not quitting a job you hate (short-term gratification) because you need to put food on the table (long-term) fall into this category then?
Because I think a lot of people, myself included, have been in that situation.
Of course, I guess it depends on how serious people actually think about immediately quitting their job as opposed to being just talk.
Or, you could say that the short term gratification is the social acceptance, and paycheck you receive from working a "normal" job, and the long term would be sufferring in order to do what you actually love.
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2007, 06:34:21 PM
Or, you could say that the short term gratification is the social acceptance, and paycheck you receive from working a "normal" job, and the long term would be sufferring in order to do what you actually love.
You could say that. And you could also say the other one. How you see it is the free will choice you get to make. The difference between making an informed descision or acting in accordance with conditioning.
Meta free will!
Heh.
But yes. Once you can see what your conditioning is telling you, you can make the choice to go along with it, or not.
It's when you don't see it that you're fucked.
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2007, 07:01:52 PM
Once you can see what your conditioning is telling you, you can make the choice to go along with it, or not.
It's when you don't see it that you're fucked.
So you're saying implicitly that we're all fucked part of the time?
Quote from: Netaungrot on January 06, 2007, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2007, 07:01:52 PM
Once you can see what your conditioning is telling you, you can make the choice to go along with it, or not.
It's when you don't see it that you're fucked.
So you're saying implicitly that we're all fucked part of the time?
doesn't sound like a half-bad observation to me, actually.
I wonder about the fucked part sometimes. Ignorance actually is bliss. The doors of perception, once opened, can seem like a blessing and a curse at times but until you open them nothings really wrong in the reality you make for yourself.
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 07, 2007, 12:08:49 PMThe doors of perception, once opened, can seem like a blessing and a curse at times but until you open them nothings really wrong in the reality you make for yourself.
hm i'm not sure, look for instance at some of the reasons why people open these doors.
it's not always curiosity, it can also be that they hope there might be something better outside.
some people on these boards would say to them: SUCKERS!
but is that really the case? what if some emo kid who is totally unhappy with himself starts *thinking* for a change, ok so he finds out some horrible troofs, but if he did it right, at least he is no emo kid anymore.
Quote from: triple zero on January 07, 2007, 03:06:25 PM
but is that really the case? what if some emo kid who is totally unhappy with himself starts *thinking* for a change, ok so he finds out some horrible troofs, but if he did it right, at least he is no emo kid anymore.
Attachment to ego mostly scares them out of it. Fear of not being 'the real me' after it. Realisation that there is no 'real you' is liberating but how to convince someone that incinerating who they are is a good thing. I can remember being there. Even as a Rebel
tm I was buying into another con. It was by sheer luck, in the form of an unexpected psychological cataclysm, brought on by extreme changes in brain chemistry, that I stumbled through the exit, barely realising it had happened. Otherwise I'd prolly still have been grazing on a Government inc. approved meme diet to this day. Thank god for insanity!
Quote from: triple zero on January 07, 2007, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on January 06, 2007, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2007, 07:01:52 PM
Once you can see what your conditioning is telling you, you can make the choice to go along with it, or not.
It's when you don't see it that you're fucked.
So you're saying implicitly that we're all fucked part of the time?
doesn't sound like a half-bad observation to me, actually.
Damn straight. In case you forgot
there is no escape from the Black Iron Prison1
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 07, 2007, 12:08:49 PM
Ignorance actually is bliss.
Is false bliss really bliss?
Perhaps from the outside.
I dunno. 
Subjective vs Objective, I guess.
I just don't like the thought of so many Jesus freaks being in a state of bliss, is all.
Quote from: triple zero on January 08, 2007, 01:31:55 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2007, 01:06:11 PMQuote from: SillyCybin on January 07, 2007, 12:08:49 PMIgnorance actually is bliss.
Is false bliss really bliss?
is there a difference? can you tell?
Yes. The answer is here: http://www.ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=d_gilbert
Duration 22:02
I've found lots of interesting things on the tedtalks site.
Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on January 08, 2007, 01:43:50 PM
Duration 22:02
summary please?
(also i can't watch/listen cause i'm at work)
People will be happy with whatever they end up with, however circumstances turn out, because the brain is wired that way. It is supported by experimental data about various groups being offered Monet prints and their affinity for the one they got versus the one they turned down. It's really worth a watch, cause I don't do the ideas justice.
"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
I've gotten about halfway through Prometheus Rising, but I keep forgetting I'm reading it the next day. Consistency is not my forte.
Well, at least you caught the reference.
Quote from: triple zero on January 08, 2007, 01:31:55 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2007, 01:06:11 PMQuote from: SillyCybin on January 07, 2007, 12:08:49 PMIgnorance actually is bliss.
Is false bliss really bliss?
is there a difference? can you tell?
That's a tricky one really. It sort of requires getting inside one's head. Someone who is a supposed devout Christian, apparently blissful in their faith, may be struggling inside with their faith. Questioning but not wanting the rest of the fellowship in on it.
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2007, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: triple zero on January 07, 2007, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on January 06, 2007, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2007, 07:01:52 PM
Once you can see what your conditioning is telling you, you can make the choice to go along with it, or not.
It's when you don't see it that you're fucked.
So you're saying implicitly that we're all fucked part of the time?
doesn't sound like a half-bad observation to me, actually.
Damn straight. In case you forgot there is no escape from the Black Iron Prison
How do we know we haven't deluded ourselves into thinking we've considered our conditioned impulses?
How do we distinguish from a conditioned and non-conditioned impulse?
Quote from: Netaungrot on January 08, 2007, 02:49:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2007, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: triple zero on January 07, 2007, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on January 06, 2007, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2007, 07:01:52 PM
Once you can see what your conditioning is telling you, you can make the choice to go along with it, or not.
It's when you don't see it that you're fucked.
So you're saying implicitly that we're all fucked part of the time?
doesn't sound like a half-bad observation to me, actually.
Damn straight.  In case you forgot there is no escape from the Black Iron Prison
How do we know we haven't deluded ourselves into thinking we've considered our conditioned impulses? 
How do we distinguish from a conditioned and non-conditioned impulse?
Quote from: Crowley?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2007, 02:57:40 PM
Quote from: Netaungrot on January 08, 2007, 02:49:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 08, 2007, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: triple zero on January 07, 2007, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on January 06, 2007, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: LMNO on January 04, 2007, 07:01:52 PM
Once you can see what your conditioning is telling you, you can make the choice to go along with it, or not.
It's when you don't see it that you're fucked.
So you're saying implicitly that we're all fucked part of the time?
doesn't sound like a half-bad observation to me, actually.
Damn straight. In case you forgot there is no escape from the Black Iron Prison
How do we know we haven't deluded ourselves into thinking we've considered our conditioned impulses?
How do we distinguish from a conditioned and non-conditioned impulse?
Quote from: Crowley?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Morning ruined.
LOL Pineal 23, etc.
I'm thinking this whole debat ecan be solved by examining the question - If you prick an ignoramus do they feel real pain?
What is bliss? Contentment? Happiness? - retarded kids can smile - are they really happy or some pale retard imitation?
Of course, this does lead us to the proposition that not only is ignorance bliss, it is also preferrable.
bliss is bliss
ignorance is ignorance
is it enough to know when you are not in a state of bliss?
rather than trying to define that thing that we only get temporary glimpses of?
the ignorance is bliss angle seems to depends on man's inability to create/build/sustain a blissful situation
im not fully convinced of that (yet)
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 08, 2007, 04:19:24 PM
I'm thinking this whole debat ecan be solved by examining the question - If you prick an ignoramus do they feel real pain?
What is bliss? Contentment? Happiness? - retarded kids can smile - are they really happy or some pale retard imitation?
1) The first question doesn't make sense to me.  What does the physiological reaction to pain have to do with ignorance?  
2)  Perhaps, from an observer's perspective it is what you call a "pale retard imitation."  But somehow, I don't think imitation is the right word because that would entail a concious effort to ape something different from what is being truly felt.  And why is it a "pale retard imitation"?  I'm trying to understand why you are characterizing this the way that you are.  
I'm just sorta mulling the question over in my mind. From the original 'your fucked' point of view that LMNO posted. I've often wondered if I'd have been better off not knowing the things I know. Like cypher in the matrix - "You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss."
Upshot is I'm going to die at the end of it and, up til then, there's no real meaning that I can discern. Would being a happy idiot be preferable to a tormented wiseman? Course the question is academic - once you open the doors there's no closing the buggers.
i dont know many happy idiots who die comfortably
yall ever talk to a old person whose kids started fighting over their inheritance while he/she was still alive?
ignorance can be perpetuated and postponed, but as them walls close in - people learn a lot in a very short period of time
theres a lot of information in that light
Quote from: LHX on January 08, 2007, 05:20:21 PM
i dont know many happy idiots who die comfortably
yall ever talk to a old person whose kids started fighting over their inheritance while he/she was still alive?
Hell yeah, I'm with you there. When ever I hear about some idiot getting depressed about shit that I can't help thinking is their own fault for buying into or being unable to deal with some delusional byproduct of the machine, I get to thinking I'm the lucky one. It's more those smiley happy, living in a dreamworld of tv talkshows and christian revial meetings - types I'm thinking of here. These people enjoy their life in complete ignorance of what's really going on. I'm not saying some of them aren't suicidally depressed at times but I'm sure there are some who go from cradle to grave just grinning inanely and being extra nice to people.
Quote from: LHX on January 08, 2007, 05:20:21 PM
i dont know many happy idiots who die comfortably
yall ever talk to a old person whose kids started fighting over their inheritance while he/she was still alive?
ignorance can be perpetuated and postponed, but as them walls close in - people learn a lot in a very short period of time
theres a lot of information in that light
Moral of the story:
No one can escape the horrible truths.
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 08, 2007, 05:27:17 PM
Hell yeah, I'm with you there. When ever I hear about some idiot getting depressed about shit that I can't help thinking is their own fault for buying into or being unable to deal with some delusional byproduct of the machine, I get to thinking I'm the lucky one. It's more those smiley happy, living in a dreamworld of tv talkshows and christian revial meetings - types I'm thinking of here. These people enjoy their life in complete ignorance of what's really going on. I'm not saying some of them aren't suicidally depressed at times but I'm sure there are some who go from cradle to grave just grinning inanely and being extra nice to people.
im telling you yo - their last days are not pleasant
just like anybody who is going thru a stage where their foundation starts to crumble
people eventually end up questioning -- suffering ensures that
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 08, 2007, 05:29:43 PM
Moral of the story:
No one can escape the horrible truths.
this is horribly (but from a certain perspective - blissfully) true
So how do we measure success? If someone can successfully bury their mind in the sand and enjoy 99.99999% of their life, only arriving at the horrble troof half an hour before they die their suffering is surely neglible. The meaning of life for me is to spend as little time suffering as possible. In this case pure, demented ignorance seems like a surefire winner.
Kind of shoots "Rest in Peace" to hell though.
Never put much stock in that one tbh. As far as I'm concerned there's either something happens to me after I snuff it or my whole awareness of reality just ceases to exist. Either way resting will be the last thing on my mind. Peace second last.
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 08, 2007, 05:39:33 PM
So how do we measure success? If someone can successfully bury their mind in the sand and enjoy 99.99999% of their life, only arriving at the horrble troof half an hour before they die their suffering is surely neglible. The meaning of life for me is to spend as little time suffering as possible. In this case pure, demented ignorance seems like a surefire winner.
there is no limit to the intensity of suffering yo
the tighter you hold something back - the more you ignore something --> the more intense it will be when you face it
is it better to get a atomic bomb dropped on you?
or be slowly poisoned and stimulated to forget about it and endure over the course of 80 years?
Quote from: SillyCybin on January 08, 2007, 05:46:47 PM
Never put much stock in that one tbh. As far as I'm concerned there's either something happens to me after I snuff it or my whole awareness of reality just ceases to exist. Either way resting will be the last thing on my mind. Peace second last.
lol
the thought of resting in peace is the only thing that interests me
You might put it that way, but it casts the wrong image I think. You don't go around asking for death, you merely face it as life.
true
to rest in peace doesnt necessarily have to suggest death (tho it is a shame that it does)
I think it is probably possible to "rest in peace" in life. Probably extremely rare, but I can see it being possible. And though I would not ask for death or chase it. I do feel that if I know my time is to come I would welcome it and not fear it. I can think of nothing more rewarding for surviving the Prison then to be able to be set free from it, even if you do not exist in any afterlife way to enjoy it.
fear of the unknown is a bad disease
its wide spread
Its deeply entrenched too. I sometimes wonder if society could somehow teach people to not fear death, to truly not fear it, if society would then, be any different.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on January 09, 2007, 01:00:44 PM
I think it is probably possible to "rest in peace" in life.  Probably extremely rare, but I can see it being possible. 
I think it happens in brief moments.
Too brief, and then people spend the rest of their life chasing it.
Can lead to excessive drug use.
Another example of Ignorance = Bliss.
Dear lord, I'm typing like LHX.
Quote from: LMNO on January 09, 2007, 01:07:17 PM
Dear lord, I'm typing like LHX.
eeeeeeeeeeeee sheeyit --
id do something drastic at this point
::severs left pinky finger::
(http://www.ransackery.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/severed-finger.jpg)