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Firstly. I did not and do not insist on including Uncle BadTouch. I insist on being the one to make that choice.

Revisionism.

You said "No discussion about Discordianism would be complete without Uncle BadTouch."

I don't remember saying that, and it's not my point of view. Feel free to link me to where I said that.

And you also can't control how much some of us resented your choice of who you wanted to include.

I don't have a need to control people's reactions. I've explained my POV, and as long as people aren't coming out with straight up untruths, I don't mind what they say.

To be perfectly, painfully, glaringly clear; I do NOT and never have taken the position that everyone else is trying to control my work. I DO take the position that had I agreed to do interviews that would leave me unable to choose for myself what content I did or did not include (meaning if using the interview meant I had to promise not to involve Uncle BadTouch or any other figure or otherwise impose conditions on what I wrote) that I would not feel I had full control over what I was writing.

That's FINE. You could and DID choose who you were going to write about.

But people refusing to participate because you involved some David Koresh knockoff is NOT trying to "control your work", it's just refusal to participate.  Which is something YOU can't and shouldn't be able to control.

I don't and did not believe anyone was trying to control my work.

Personally, I think the reason this kind of upsets me is because I was very interested in this project, and really would have liked to participate; and I don't think I'm alone in this.  So the insistence to include Uncle BadTouch, who (if nothing else) is simply another in a long line of Pinealists and plagarists (and there is plenty else), is at the expense of a group of Discordians who, as far as I can tell, have created a surprisingly new branch of Discordia, mostly out of whole cloth.

Thus, the decision to include one person deprives the work of an entire movement.


Sure, that sounds big-headed and pretentious; but in your travels, have you found any Discordians like the ones at PD.com?

It seems to me that the book was intended to capture "classic" Discordianism.

No slam on Swabey or anyone.  There's still something to be said for that approach.  But I think that trying to shove everyone in the book would be like asking Martin Luther if he minded if the Vatican would be involved.

So a choice had to be made.  For some reason, the choice made was "Uncle BadTouch uber alles".

This is not an attempt to record any one genre of Discordianism. It is an attempt to take a snapshot of the broader egragore of Discordia and the lives of Discordians. 

You say a choice had to be made. In fact the whole cause of much of the upset is that I do not think that any kind of choice DID have to be made. Therefore anyone who felt I did need to choose between them and Uncle BadTouch (or, had it come to it, anyone else) was left out of the interviews. 

Personally, I think the reason this kind of upsets me is because I was very interested in this project, and really would have liked to participate; and I don't think I'm alone in this.  So the insistence to include Uncle BadTouch, who (if nothing else) is simply another in a long line of Pinealists and plagarists (and there is plenty else), is at the expense of a group of Discordians who, as far as I can tell, have created a surprisingly new branch of Discordia, mostly out of whole cloth.

Thus, the decision to include one person deprives the work of an entire movement.


Sure, that sounds big-headed and pretentious; but in your travels, have you found any Discordians like the ones at PD.com?

Firstly. I did not and do not insist on including Uncle BadTouch. I insist on being the one to make that choice.

In one regard yes I have met people like those of PDcom, mainly because I interviewed 8 people that I met for the first time on PD who are or have been active contributors.

But in a less literal sense, assuming that you are talking about people who have taken 'standard' Discordianism and built something new and innovative out of it, yes i have met many people like that also.

The thing is... nobody said you didn't have control of your project.  

What they said was that if Uncle BadTouch was involved, they didn't want to be.  And you read that as them trying to control your work, which from my stance looks like you viewing their words through a sort of strange prism.  You should look at that, and be honest with yourself.  You may not like what you find.

Thanks for your input, and I appreciate the helpful tone.

Honestly, I have no idea how to say the same thing in a different way to be understood at this point but I will try to be particularly clear in this post.

I agree with everything you said, other that the idea that I interpreted people as trying to have control of my work. Where people have set the condition that they will be in or out based on Uncle BadTouch or anyone else's involvement, I don't feel I can work with that, and think I'm better off without the interview in the first place.

I have said a number of times that if I was to agree to these kinds of interviews I would feel that I did not have full control over my work. From where I stand, this isn't obviously conflated with me saying that 'other people are trying to control my work' but despite me explicityly and repeatedly making the point that that is not my point of view, that's how it seems many here are more comfortable interpreting me.

My being here now isn't to pursue some agenda based on feeling hurt and angry that I have somehow been mortally wronged by mean old PD but because I want to take a chance to correct some errors that are being made (that I'm part of some kind of Loveshadian conspiracy, that I regard Uncle BadTouch or anyone else as more important than the rest, that I believe in a PD conspiracy against my project or anything else, so on)

To be perfectly, painfully, glaringly clear; I do NOT and never have taken the position that everyone else is trying to control my work. I DO take the position that had I agreed to do interviews that would leave me unable to choose for myself what content I did or did not include (meaning if using the interview meant I had to promise not to involve Uncle BadTouch or any other figure or otherwise impose conditions on what I wrote) that I would not feel I had full control over what I was writing. But my feeling of having full control is something that I have made choices to retain, and I regard that as my choice that I have made and am comfortable with, not as a reaction to some kind of evil power grab from this forum which seems to be how a lot of folk are choosing to interpret my attitude.

To reiterate: it is not, and has never been my opinion that anyone is trying to control my project.

Name in collection is 'Hoopla'

I actually didn't come back to reply but felt there was one more thing I wished to mention.

Paes talked about 'journalistic integrity.' Not sure if his word or mine but I guess where he's used that I just say honesty.

This was where my reasons for involving Uncle BadTouch were challenged and among other points, the point was made that it would be bad to associate Discordia with his ideas. My feeling here is that I disagree. Uncle BadTouch, who calls himself a Discordian has upset other Discordians by sharing ideas that have upset people for extremely valid reasons, and to be honest about that is to promote a culture of honesty and avoid embracing a culture of secrecy. This isn't me saying why I will discuss Uncle BadTouch becaue as I've mentioned those are choices that will come out of the editing process; but it is a reason why I do not accept the idea that his views are too terrible to be aknowledged honestly and critically.

It is 3-am. I sleep now. Please give me a little more leeway on this particular post, because my brain is slowing.

[However I do have a problem loosing editorial control, and being told who I may and any may not discuss as a Discordian public figure.]

Been at work but this is the main of what I'd like to say.

I thought about some of these issues a lot when Roger first raised concerns regarding Uncle BadTouch. The conclusion I came to then is the conclusion I'm at now; I don't have a real problem losing Uncle BadTouch; after all, all I have is one Internet  interview which may not even make the final cut, and I have no plans to meet him. However I do have a problem loosing editorial control, and being told who I may and any may not discuss as a Discordian public figure.

More importantly I would feel like a fraud if I were to decide Uncle BadTouch were 'too unpleasent' to discuss. I'd feel like I was calling in everyone to smile nicely and look normal. I'm interested in showing all sides of Discordia, not in being an Erisian PR manager. If there are unpleasant things in Discordia, I'm happy to show what they are.

In regards to the FB group I'll admit to a handful of poor choices this morning. It felt to me to be passive aggressive to pull people out without making contact, hence the pms. Possibly this was the wrong call to make, and if so, I apologise.  The facebook group has always been locked and private, and exists for my convenience in organising trip matters. I don't want drama in there, and I don't want people connected who aren't interested in being involved. When I pulled people out today I should have given everyone a bit of notice and a chance to clean up conversations first, and I didn't, which I apologise for.

Regarding the tone around here I seem to be persona non grata so if there's any questions, PM me and I'll post up an answer here.

Oh hey.

If I keep on reading this thread, I wonder if I'll find the part where you accuse Roger and I of attempting to sabotage your project, as well?

Thank you. This is why I was asking for the direct quote, so I could see what was being talked about. I never meant by that comment that other people were trying to take over my project. I meant that if I can't make decisions about what I include I don't feel like I have full editorial control. So if anyone's involvement was contingent on having a say on what made a final draft I would sooner avoid the issue and decline the interview. When people began to tell me that I had accused others of trying to control my work, denied it, because that is not what I tried to say in this comment. I am sorry if I wrote it ambiguously but hopefully it is now very clear what I wished to say.

You won't find anything about sabotage because that was never something I said, but I would appreciate seeing the quote that you remember, if only to understand for myself where this impression came from.

The pathetic life of Oxo Marx

If you're talking about Uncle BadTouch's book, I had a look through when PD started having a freak out over alleged plagiarism.
Book is in 'Straya so I can't look now but as I recall the only works that didn't seem to be by Uncle BadTouch were from Dr. Jon and Vex.


If you're talking about my Intermittens story collection, Enrico, no. You... I don't know who you are. If you're Twid, I believe not.

That's Hoopla.

Oops, I forgot I switched my name out.

I cannot recall the name of the story at this second but the Intermittens included the one where the boy with a talking pimple saws his own head off.

If this is going to be in anything else, can you just make up a name to go with that story?  If it's already done, then it's my own fault for being lax and tardy.

I think you gave it one, I just can't recall. Anyway, Cram did the layout and named anything that didnt have a title. I don't have future plans with it, but if I do I'll check in again.

Nobody was ever or is now too important to be left out. All I insist on is that the choice is mine. I've said that a few times now.

If I get to it I may get onto AKK, but that's not really relevant or something I'm going to address again.

If you're talking about Uncle BadTouch's book, I had a look through when PD started having a freak out over alleged plagiarism.
Book is in 'Straya so I can't look now but as I recall the only works that didn't seem to be by Uncle BadTouch were from Dr. Jon and Vex.


If you're talking about my Intermittens story collection, Enrico, no. You... I don't know who you are. If you're Twid, I believe not.

That's Hoopla.

Oops, I forgot I switched my name out.

I cannot recall the name of the story at this second but the Intermittens included the one where the boy with a talking pimple saws his own head off.

If you're talking about Uncle BadTouch's book, I had a look through when PD started having a freak out over alleged plagiarism.
Book is in 'Straya so I can't look now but as I recall the only works that didn't seem to be by Uncle BadTouch were from Dr. Jon and Vex.


If you're talking about my Intermittens story collection, Enrico, no. You... I don't know who you are. If you're Twid, I believe not.

Q: Do you think Uncle BadTouch's failure to understand the intersection between age and consent is "an unpleasant thing in Discordia" rather than a perversion of an individual, while the individual also happens to have latched on to the Discordian label? 

A: The distinction seems meaningless. My measure for 'is someone a Discordian' is for this book simply that they self identify as Discordian. And some of my interviews haven't even gone that far!
I think that something being too unpleasant or taboo is a bad reason to avoid talking about it. I am aware of the specific things Uncle BadTouch has written in his book and website that you refer to, and I think that it would be wrong to ignore them because I was afraid it might be too unpleasant for people to hear about. Instead I think it's fair to have a honest discussion on how it's perceived and dealt with in the community. 

Q: Why did your journalistic integrity get stuck on this one case but not force you to hunt down every freak who every hail'd Eris and associate the label with the skeletons in their closets?

A: I'm not 'hunting down freaks.' I'm interviewing people who call themselves Discordians. I'm not associating Discordia with anything. I'm letting people tell me how they regard Discordia.  The answers are very broad.

Q: Is it because the community responded with "ew no?" and tried to CENSOR you forcing you to overcompensate in your SERCH FOR TROOF? 

A: No. I have not chosen to do anything in this project just because people told me not to. 

Q: If so, how does that community response work as support of your notion that Uncle BadTouch is relevant to Discordianism?

A: Well, not so, but all I mean by relevant, if that was my term, is that Uncle BadTouch is well known within Discordia online, through his websites mostly and his book, and his various conflicts with other members of the community. 

Can I also say: it's not even written yet. It's in progress. It's not even editing stage. So there are no choices being made right now about what WILL be and what WILL NOT. What I do insist on is that when it is time to make those choices, I will make them, with input from my publisher. So I can't tell you too much about what I say about any one person just yet because I may prove a liar.